Questions and answers
Quite rightly, questions to the first minister today were dominated by Diageo.
However, the pursuit of the FM was anything but single-minded.
From the chair, Alex Fergusson complained that the exchanges with the three Opposition leaders had taken up twenty two of the 30 minutes on offer.
He warned he will now seek ways of reducing this dominance.
The PO, of course, is not responsible for the content of questions. But it seemed to me that this Q&A was wanting in other respects.
Perhaps it is the stylised format of FMQs, perhaps it is the perceived requirement for a quota of partisan exasperation, but I did not feel that the Diageo issue had been suitably addressed.
We might exempt Tavish Scott from this. The Liberal Democrat leader inquired, relatively modestly, why the Diageo job losses had produced such a substantive response - government task force et al - by contrast with economic challenges elsewhere.
Party bickering
Mr Salmond, equally gently, cited examples of action by his government to preserve and create jobs while thanking Mr Scott in the passing for the notably consensual tone of his comments on Diageo yesterday in which he warned that party bickering would not save a single job.
For the Conservatives, Annabel Goldie chose to pursue the question of disruptive pupils and school exclusions.
On the day, she didn't make all that much progress. However, the Tories are plainly building up a dossier on this, an issue which resonates with their vote.
Labour's Iain Gray certainly pursued Diageo. However, he seemed a little uncertain as to which avenue to follow.
Yesterday he had issued a statement saying that the Diageo workers had been "let down" by the Scottish Government.
He started today down that tack, accusing Mr Salmond of indulging in megaphone diplomacy with Diageo by joining a rally in Kilmarnock against job cuts.
The implication appeared to be that diligent negotation might have been more effective.
Saving jobs
However, Mr Gray then switched - and said it was important to move on, to combine to mitigate the impact of the job losses.
He then expanded his arguments still further, arguing that the Scottish Government was spending so much time on its National Conversation about the constitution that it was neglecting its responsibility to save jobs.
On the day, each attack might have been substantive. However, the single transferable question allowed Mr Salmond to chide his opponent for failing to focus on the issue at hand.
Indeed, the FM proceeded to address the question he felt Mr Gray should have asked. Alex Fergusson might welcome this approach.
If the FM both asks and answers the questions, time would undoubtedly be saved.
Is there still underlying substance here, though? Possibly.
It is at least arguable Mr Salmond was displaying a dual personality in the early stages of this controversy: part protest, part persuasion.
Certainly, business leaders have queried whether it is suitable for the political leader of a government to be on the march in protest at a company with substantial continuing investment in Scotland.
Political bosses
Mr Salmond says he has nothing to apologise for.
Secondly, the issue of the National Conversation. Here, it is Labour which appears to have a dual approach.
At points, they seem to suggest that Mr Salmond has no mandate to pursue this issue.
He does. He won most votes in the election. He was duly elected first minister with the power to direct civil servants which that implies.
Those civil servants are obliged to pursue the manifesto of their political bosses.
That manifesto contained a promise to pursue independence via a referendum.
Separately, Labour and others argue that the National Conversation is a waste of time and money.
That is a different case, party political not constitutional.
One for the voters to judge at the next election - by which time they may have cast their views on independence in a referendum. Or not.
Comments
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Party bickering
Really Brian? Which parties are currently bickering?
Only one party have attacked and accused another. The party using the closure in order to score political points is Labour.
Meanwhile Diageo sit chuckling as Labour effectively draw fire away from them.
The workers and the people of Kilmarnock will have noticed this.
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gedguy2 asked about the prison PFI story and where it had gone.
Here it is
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Seems that Gordon Brown is under fire again for sanctioning an operation in Afghanistan to free a journalist that resulted in a paratrooper being kiled together with the journalists translator and two civilians.
Negotiators apparently days away from securing the release of the journalist and translator without the need to fire a bullet.
Now, why would Macavity sanction such an operation when release was already imminent? Could it be that he was hoping the operation would be a great success and that he could then bask in some reflected glory?
Like everything else he touches - it turned around and bit him.
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Certainly, business leaders have queried whether it is suitable for the political leader of a government to be on the march in protest at a company with substantial continuing investment in Scotland.
Could this be a reference to Mr Iain Macmillan, head of the CBI in Scotland and no fan of the SNP?
If not then who are these other business leaders Brian?
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"Secondly, the issue of the National Conversation. Here, it is Labour which appears to have a dual approach."
Is 'to have a dual approach' a euphism for lying their heads off?
It is with some regret that I note that you haven't asked Mr Gray about Mr Brown,and the labour party's dual approach to Mr Megrahi's release.
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Annabel Goldie is right to focus on the state of education in Scotland.
Especially given the latest figures for Higher/A-Level passes.
Scotland has remained stagnant on 58%, England has overtaken on 64%.
But surely such face on comparisons are meaningless? Afterall havent A-levels been "softened" (i.e. dumbed down)?
Well no, according to Durham University professors, as part of their investigation into this they concluded that "it was the subject stupid", namely it depends on the subject, as some have been softened, other like Mathematics have not.
(http://www.economist.com/world/britain/displaystory.cfm?story_id=14270137)
This therefore being the case, it makes Scotlands education stagnation all the more concerning.
One solution as Annabel Goldie points out is to remove disruptive pupils and place them in seperate classrooms until they behave and conform to the standards schools, teachers and parents expect and demand.
Brian you are right, we are building up a dossier on this issue, because given Labour and UnLibDems total failure over the 8 years they were in power, someone has to.
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It appears that the Lib Dems are looking to their future share of the popular vote. They are moving away from a partisan, confrontational stance; that is to distance themselves from Labour. Maybe they have been tapping into popular feeling recently and have perceived that being closer to the SNP will bring them dividends in an election. Welcoming? Perhaps. Shrewd? very. Two faced? Most definitely!
As for Alex Salmond's intervention on Diageo; most welcome. It's about time we had an interventionist Government, looking out for the population. It works for France. I've never been in favour of a light touch, just look what happened with the recent banking crisis where a lack of intervention resulted in a global mess.
As for Iain Grey..............*sigh*
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Brian, I'm becoming impressed with you, another 'cloaked' attack on the Labour leader. Please don't keep this up as we need a dunderheid in charge of Labour coming up to an important by-election, if it ever happens before the next General Election. Surely this must be longest period of time that a constituency has been without an MP?
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afternoon , as posted on last thread ,could someone tell me ,
who paid for the "calman commission"???
who thought the Edinburgh trams was a good use of public money??
who bottled it last week and refused to go for a confidence vote??
who's private polling suggests that the BBC's Megrahi / MacAskill poll was so wide of the mark??
Sid
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Brian
Great blog as usual but I would like to probe your point about the format of FMQs.
The problem is not the technical structure but the political culture which has been built on top of it. Questions to the First Minister are really partisan speeches contorted into the form of questions. If politicians limited themselves to asking a factual question with some limited comments then everything would go faster and more stuff would be covered in closer detail.
The problem is the - usually failed - attempts at stirring rhetoric which should really (if necessary at all) be limited to debates. The converse is also true. Oftentimes when watching Opposition spokespersons reply in a debate their speeches take the form of a list of questions to the minister. Questions should be kept to a minimum so the minister can deal with them cleanly and quickly with an intervention.
As I said, the problem is not the format itself but rather that the politicians do not, in my view, have an adequate understanding of what different parliamentary procedures are for. Maybe they just don't care.
I can only assume that it is through not caring that speaking through the Chair is such a trial even for otherwise procedurally-adept members such as David McLetchie.
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I am far from sure why you did not comment on the other two party leaders as they made some interesting points and I prefer to have a total coverage of all 4. I am also surprised why you let Eck away every time as he seldom answers the question that's put to him. He just makes whatever his prepared statement is.
Personally I believe the SNP's reputation of championing Scottish business has been blown out of the water by Eck's behaviour especially for the way he berated Diageo in July. As a result it is hardly surprising that Diageo gave Eck a public slap in the face. My hope is that potential businesses do not see that as Scotland turning their face against business. Eck has without doubt done us a massive blow as we need to attract new jobs to survive and his political grandstanding did show he was out of his depth and did not understand his role as FM.
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# 2 Online_Ed
Thank you for that. maybe Unison will publish its findings and then we can see the truth of these types of projects.
Isn't it strange that:
1. An important document about the costings of those types of projects has been withheld for years from the public?
2. Has the company running this prison or any of its shareholders ever contributed to the Labour party?
3. Why did the BBC remove such an important news article so quickly?
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Brian
In amongst the party politics are you trying to indicate problems with our pretendy wee?
To the matter of FMQ, this is an unsuitable import from the two party knockabout that is Westminster and can be scrapped. 15 minutes on Tuesday for the UnLibUnDem, 15 minutes on Wednesday for Bella's people and 15 minutes on Thursday for EF's lot and if they want their time all to be taken by their party leader fine, if they want all their troops to get target practice, equally fine.
As to the impotence of Government and Parliament to influence Diageo, surely this is the fault of the Labour devolution settlement that has left us with a Toothless Fairy of a Government, without the money to put under the pillow when our teeth are knocked out.
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# 117 astonishedII on 'Measuring the Diageo fallout'
You could very well be right.
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Diageo workers
West Coast Vs East Coast
And here was me thinking that all the West Coas bias went with West Coast Jack
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Re greenock boy 1
As usual a highly selective view of the issue. In truth both Salmond and Murphy were tripping over themselves from day one to score points of each other. Remember the stupidity and banality of the issue around meetings with Diageo at the start? Like kids in a playground. Imagine if they had gone together to meet Diageo? Which would have been most likely to work? I reckon the political shenanigans that we seen would be more likely to say to Diageo that they wanted nothing to do with any of them. this may have effects further into the future for Scotland.
I have said before that the jobs issue was second place to the party politics right from the start here, full marks to Tavish for realising that this is unimpressive and a poor reflection of Scotland.
AS for Brian's comments regarding FMQ's, they are becoming more irrelevant each time, this is weekly bun fight is not what Holyrood was intended to be.
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"Annabel Goldie is right to focus on the state of education in Scotland"
Think she'd give the free milk back to the bairns?
"One solution as Annabel Goldie points out is to remove disruptive pupils and place them in seperate classrooms until they behave and conform to the standards schools, teachers and parents expect and demand"
Yeah! Throw away the key! Send them to the infamous bay!
What about the standards that parents should have installed in the first place, thereby preventing the need for such compasionate measures?
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All this posturing by some of the parties at Holyrood;
Can someone do me a favour, please.
I really want to understand what the individual parties stand for.
Let's take an obvious example; the SNP; they have a "Big Idea" which is an Independent Scotland, and the creation of a healthy nation state, with all the good things that come with that. There's their baseline, from which we can judge their performance. Clear as day to me.
What I do struggle with, is to identify the same for Labour, Conservatives and Lib Dems (I'm leaving out the Greens for now). What are there individual ideas? If I understand that, then I can understand the various soundbites coming from them at FMQs etc. It can't all be anti SNP (can it?).
Any comments appreciated, so that I don't turn into a complete cynic.
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The Gray man's decline continues,
http://news.scotsman.com/politics/Poll-findings-39put-Gray39s-seat.5630005.jp
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I note (without surprise) that the Bulgarians are unhappy about Mr Straw’s decision to release a young man convicted of attempted murder because he (and he alone) was personally satisfied after reviewing the evidence that the conviction was unsafe. The Bulgarians on the other hand do not appear to have been consulted let alone invited to give their consent to his release. Now this impacts directly on the Megrahi case. The young man in question was returned to this country under a PTA in the legitimate expectation by the Bulgarian authorities that he would serve the sentence imposed. Hence their displeasure – and what chance has anyone got in future of being returned to Britain from a Bulgarian jail?
Now as to Mr Megrahi, we know that notwithstanding what Mr Balls has said the other day that the Westminster government was all for repatriating Mr Megrahi under a PTA and have a pretty shrewd idea that the accusations of dithering flung at Mr MacAskill stemmed from his refusal to play ball by going down the PTA route rather than waiting for the medical evidence to justify compassionate release. Now, had Mr Straw had his way and had Mr Megrahi sent back to Libya under the PTA, what then if his Libyan counterpart had unilaterally decided to pardon and release Mr Megrahi…
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The Daily Rag (sorry Record) are reporting today that Diageo refused requests from the cross party group to release information that they could use to build a case for retention of the two bottling plants.
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Why does BBC Scotland wheel out the Herald's main man, Alf Young, to make comments on any political issue that they feel will undermine the SNP. Last night it was the Diageo affair. Alf was straight in there with his not so obtuse references to the SNP government's handling of it. Everyone knows that Alf is a loyal Labour supporter so why is no one invited to argue the other side of the case? There is no way this can be seen as impartiality from BBC Scotland! When we have had, on very rare occasions, one of the London political pundits arrainged against Alf he starts to look foolish.
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# 14 you
it seems the mods are happy with me 'praising' Brian but remove my post if I 'question' his job?
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#19 Blind_Captain
Labour is anything that might appeal to Middle England so they stay in power
Tory is the law is perfect so anyone convicted must be hung drawn or quartered
The Who? is if we get enough councillors to run without foul-ups maybe noone will notice we haven't anything useful to say
Quite how these are modified to suit the Scotch is still uncertain as none of them can get a word in edgeways as Alex hogs the limelight
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"It appears that the Lib Dems are looking to their future share of the popular vote. They are moving away from a partisan, confrontational stance; that is to distance themselves from Labour."
We were saying that about them about a year ago if I remember right. But it didn't last. They sunk down to Labours level again round about the time the Calman Commisson 'results' came out.
Anyone ever remember the Calman Commission? Whatever happened to that old chestnut then?
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who's private polling suggests that the BBC's Megrahi / MacAskill poll was so wide of the mark??
That'll be Newsnet Scotland - stay tuned for the results of the Newsnet Scotland poll this weekend.
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"It is at least arguable Mr Salmond was displaying a dual personality in the early stages of this controversy: part protest, part persuasion..."
And WHY, pray tell, is it not appropriate for him to do both? You mean poor we Mr. Salmond isn't capable of keeping two ideas in his head? In fact, might it not have been a good idea to put public pressure on them while trying to provide alternatives?
The chances were always slim and the weakness of the attacks on Mr. Salmond (and the frankly absurd nature of them) shows that. The fact is, sadly, that our world is largely run by MULTINATIONAL corporations over which individual governments, including some with a heck of a lot more power than Scotland's currently has, have very little if any control.
Let's get real here. There wasn't a thing the SNP or Labour or the Tories could have done beyond what was done. Diego had made up its mind and pretended to listen as a PR move. Then they did what they wanted to and no government was going to stop them.
The power of multinational corporations is a revolution in the making. They are the current kings in our little medieval setup and one day the peasants may wake up and there may be guillotines in the offing.
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WHY was FMQs "quite rightly" dominated by Diageo?
The issue is of no consequence AT ALL to any but less than 1% of the Scottish population.
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18. At 3:02pm on 10 Sep 2009, Phil_Anthropponent
"Think she'd give the free milk back to the bairns?"
I personally am against Universal Free school milk. The richer families should pay if they can afford, free access should be reserved only for the needy.
"Yeah! Throw away the key! Send them to the infamous bay!"
What on earth are you on about? Your spectacular ability to ignore context is astounding. I said that disruptive school pupils should be placed in seperate class rooms, thereby not damaging the educational opportunities of the more well behaved. I take it your solution is to ignore such problems and look at a 'broader picture'?
Well no thanks, I want to sort out the problems in our education system by tackling student misbehaviour in a compassionate individual-orientated manner.
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Well Brian it could have been worse. Had Gray been in power he could have done similar to his NuLabour counterparts down south - commission a report that takes 4 years to complete, costs £16M and then try to kick it into the long grass.
Report into Rover collapse to be published tomorrow.
By the way Brian I notice that Gray's twitch is back, palpably back.
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Speaking of job losses, look at how the UK government is handling our investment...Government backing for plan to transfer RBS jobs to India. I feel rather "let down" by Labour on this topic.
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Oops. It seems my criticism of multinational corporations annoyed someone. Too bad. I stand by it.
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I expect Iain Gray will claim this is also the SNP's fault...
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Re 19 blind captain.
Okay you say the SNP big idea is Independence. I really genuinely don't understand this big idea fully. All I here is that the world will be a better place without it. However how exactly this will change our lot is to me very unclear.
So if you wouldn't mind let me know how my life will improve in an independent Scotland.
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21. Caledonian54 OMG!! Just think of the damage to our international reputation that this worldwide tsunami of outrage will cause!!! Cue hand-wringing and cringing laments from our wonderful politicians and press...or perhaps not...
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re my # 14
Not being sure which part of my posting was wrong I'll post it in two parts and see which bit was wrong.
'Poor old Brian, I wonder what he thinks about all those posters who ignore his blog and continue on with the political stories that affect the political processes going on in Scotland that they, the licence paying posters of Scotland, deem to be more important than his blogging.'
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re my # 14 part 2
'Could it be that the BBC Scotland's Political Editor is just not doing his job properly and following through, in a thorough manner, the stories that ought to be discussed?'
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32. forfar-loon
Be better if they transfered Westminster.
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Brian you wrote -
"Labour's Iain Gray certainly pursued Diageo. However, he seemed a little uncertain as to which avenue to follow."
Mr Gray does not know if he is going for a shave or a haircut!
Do you honestly expect him to put up a coherent set of quetions that places Salmond under scrutiny?
I am intersted to know, deep down, what do followers of Mr Gray's party think of him, the policies they are following in Scotland and their fate at future elections?
Blind captain asks what are labour for? More difficult than you think to answer, they do not know themselves. I suggest that they are a loose bunch of careerists and fanatsists lving in the past.
When labour are erradicated both sides of the border in 2010, their dead hand will be lifted from Scotland's throat.
Where will that leave Brown, Murphy and Gray, unemployable, never mind as a last resort they can get a job as political pundits for BBC Scotland.
D McN
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#35. At 6:09pm on 10 Sep 2009, northhighlander wrote:
Re 19 blind captain.
Okay you say the SNP big idea is Independence. I really genuinely don't understand this big idea fully. All I here is that the world will be a better place without it. However how exactly this will change our lot is to me very unclear.
So if you wouldn't mind let me know how my life will improve in an independent Scotland.
---------------------------
Oh, come on. Even I can answer that one. Nationalists believe that currently the needs of Scotland with its much smaller population are invariably subverted to the needs of the larger population in the south. They believe that Scotland's needs will be better met by a local government that controls all Scottish issues, financial, foreign and domestic.
Now you can argue with that all kinds of ways but DON'T tell me you don't know the argument for. Of course you do.
Make your argument honestly. Perhaps Scotland gains more than it loses? Perhaps many Scots identify with being British and want to continue to be British?
Those are perfectly reasonable arguments, but how about an honest argument instead of pretending that Nationalists haven't been saying this stuff for years.
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#36. At 6:26pm on 10 Sep 2009, forfar-loon wrote:
21. Caledonian54 OMG!! Just think of the damage to our international reputation that this worldwide tsunami of outrage will cause!!! Cue hand-wringing and cringing laments from our wonderful politicians and press...or perhaps not...
---------------
Hmmmm Well, obviously no outrage. You didn't make us AMERICANS mad. That's all that counts, isn't it?
You can bet they won't be defending Gary McKinnon. He can rot in an American jail.
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#32 forfar-loon
Speaking of job losses, look at how the UK government is handling our investment...Government backing for plan to transfer RBS jobs to India. I feel rather "let down" by Labour on this topic.
How could they object they to are planning to export jobs to India.
It really beggars belief.
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Re 35 Northbritisher:
Independence -
- Scots govern themselves, it's called freedom, not a difficult concept to grasp.
- Scots determin the use and priorities of our natural resources.
- Scots spend their taxes according to our priorities, not the priorities of another nation that concentrates resources in its capital.
- Scots can set the levels of taxes approiate to us, not have taxes imposed upon us based on an economy that is out of sync with ours.
- Scots have our own passports and we can decide who can enter our country.
- We don't send our young people to fight wars in distant lands
- Scots decide what weapons we require, not the obscenity currently housed at Faslane.
- Scots would have our own broadcasting and media, we would not have to suffer the bias of BBC.
- Scots can compete at the Olympics and other sporting events as a nation.
- Scots control Scotland's destiny!
Union -
- Scotland governed from London.
- Career for out of sight out of mind, second rate politicians who have been taking us for mugs for years and trousering fortunes in expenses.
- Gongs and tiles for westminster lobby foder.
35 Northbritisher, if you have a big idea from a unionist perspective, please enlighten us!
D McN
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Poor Labour government. Can win for losing.
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/afghanistan/la-fg-afghan-raid11-2009sep11,0,1053137.story
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42. & 45.
You're wasting your time. There are certain people in Scotland for whom the idea of Scottish independence is only valid if it can be proven to their satisfaction that they will be £2.16 per week better off as a result. Such people believe that we should be "bought and sold for English gold", they just haggling over the price.
They know the price of everything and the value of nothing.
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Labour, the Unions, bear and sandwiches.....time warp back to 1978/9:
LABOUR AND TRADE UNIONS IN MEETING SHOWDOWN (which includes a nice long luncheon)....anyone notice how quiet this whole affair has been so far? Is Brown as ashamed of the Labour party's trades union heritage as Blair was?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8248472.stm
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no 3 online ed
not exactly a fan of gordon brown but i think you are being unfair here. the prime minister would have been recommended to sanction this operation by military and local intelligence. if brown was trying to get glory the military would have slapped him down.
the journalist's determination to get a story is good, but this is the second time he has been kidnapped.
as for negotiations, maybe brown could have offered to swap himself....
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#Re my # 14
It seems like a mod took offence at my questioning of the owner of this blog as I have managed to pass both of my sentences when they were separated. It may be helpful if the BBC can do an article on the functions of mods to give us an insight into what they accept and what they won't accept.
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47. InfrequentAllele
"They know the price of everything and the value of nothing."
One can't put a price on FREEDOM its priceless.
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# 48 deanthetory
If you read and understand the point being put over by the Unions, it is a good point. The people at the bottom of the pile are going to be the ones to suffer the most again. The problem with the unions in the days of Wilson was that the unions were infiltrated by sympathisers of the USSR who hoped to destroy the economy of the western countries to instigate unrest and thereby set the scene for a communist take over. This was where Maggie was needed. The problem with her was that she used a sledgehammer instead of a surgical knife. Today is completely different from the days of 'sandwiches' with the PM. Bankers are being allowed to pay themselves massive bonuses, which Brown backs, while those at the bottom of the pile are, not only not invited to collect the crumbs off the rich man's table, but aren't even allowed in the room.
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# 49 barbarian9
'if brown was trying to get glory the military would have slapped him down'
If I ever thought that our military was refusing to undertake a direct order from our democratically elected government then I would sack the lot of them. The military is not there to decide what it should or should not undertake but to obey the orders it is given. If they don't like those orders then they have the option of resignation. Which is why we have seen so many of our Officers resigning.
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52. At 9:11pm on 10 Sep 2009, gedguy2:
"If you read and understand the point being put over by the Unions, it is a good point"
I did and I agree. I was merely pointing out the hypocracy of New Labour to continue to call itself 'Labour' when they are so ashamed of their trades union support and heritage.
There is no need for it, the heritage of Chartism, Trades Unionism and Keir Hardie is worthy and proper.
It just the modern day Labour Party is nt fit for purpose any longer. It is a shame, a travisty in fact- for everything must have an opposite in politics. Conservativism must have a Socialist and Liberal alternative.
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It just won't go away Obama tackles UK PM on Lockerbie. (3rd udate)
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# 54 deanthetory
In which case then, I misunderstood what you were trying to put over and I unreservedly apologise.
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Brian when you say: "Secondly, the issue of the National Conversation" you are entirely correct to remind the Labourites functionaries out there that as the governing party the SNP where elected on a platform to carry one forward. They have, as promised. So what are Labour gibbering on about?
Oh, yeh...they will see anything, do anyhing, condemn everything which enables some kind of petty narrow minded party political advantage....while the rest of the parliament starts to get on with the realities of PR politics in modern day Scotland.
Gods, even Tavish refrained from such amature partisanship today. Labour continues to disapoint all.
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Does anyone have a link to the Scottish Governments official response to accusations that the release of Al Megrahi was discussed at the meeting with Qatari's?
Thanks in advance.
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#55. My anger over the handling of this whole thing by an administration that *I* voted for is almost unimaginable.
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The rhetoric will get ramped up even more as the bill for the independence referendum looms closer.
I've spoken to many political figures this year about the proposed referndum - Sitting Lords, SNP and Labour MP's, MSP's for my constituency and what I've found is that;
1. Lib Dem MSP's don't reply
2. Labour MSP's reply - but their letters are always full of anti SNP propaganda and there's never a credible arguement in them. example;
The reason for not holding a referendum - we're in a recession ...
to which I replied (to no further reply I might add) what about Trident?
4. Lords are very happy to share thier opinons - although to be fair, I approached Scottish cross bench peers to gauage thier opinions. Most beleived that independence is inevitable and there is little that the Unionists can do to stop it - to thier dismay.
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#53, gedguy2 wrote:
"The military is not there to decide what it should or should not undertake but to obey the orders it is given."
The old 'I was only following orders' argument didn't wash at Nürnberg, and it won't wash at The Hague or wherever any trial was to take place.
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A bit rich this.
"Historians and opposition politicians have warned against teaching pupils a "tabloid" version of history that could fuel anti-English sentiment."
Field trips spark new battle of Bannockburn
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did anyone catch the news on Radio 5 live tonight, driving home I nearly wet myself when Scots Toryboy said that they were against the SNP rewriting history, by funding school trips to Bannockburn and Culloden battlefield for history lessons. They claim by doing this they are changing history and ignoring everything else ????
they really are desperate
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#62. A Scottish Government spokeswoman said:
"No-one with an interest in delivering the best experiences for pupils could fail to support an initiative which allows pupils to participate in active learning about their history and heritage.
"It is especially disappointing to have this opportunity for young learners turned into a political attack."
--------------------------
One might wonder WHY certain politicians oppose Scots learning about their own history.
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64. JRMacClure
"One might wonder WHY certain politicians oppose Scots learning about their own history."
Em Truth!
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62. At 9:49pm on 10 Sep 2009, cynicalHighlander
Cheers for raising this to my attention!
Lets begin the disection
"THE SNP government is to offer schoolchildren subsidised trips to Bannockburn and Culloden, raising fears pupils will be indoctrinated with a "narrow nationalist" view of Scots history."
What is "narrow nationalist" about Culloden? I believe the Jacobites fought, died in heroic struggle for a British wide restoration.
As for Bannockburn, its an important date in Scottish history, marking an end to tyrannical oppression - which lacked popular Scottish consent.
Is this journalist Tom Peterkin seriously suggesting that we should merely forget about teaching these important aspects of Scottish history because it may offend?
Well lets follow that logic and forget about the Holocaust perhaps? It may stirr up anti-German feelings? Or forget about pre Union Scotland, entirely because it may stir up nationalist feelings?
It is incredible that this muck passes for serious Scots journalism.
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# 61 The Forfarian
There is a huge difference between a military supporting a regime that killed over 7 million jews, disabled people and gipsys and executed 10s of thousands of its own soldiers who refused to fight for Hitler and a military deciding what the policy of a democratically elected government should do.
Heaven forbid that our military ever gets to the stage as it did in the USA where there was a coup d'etat over the deaths of the Kennedys. However, there seems to have been the threat of one during the Wilson era which seems to have been enough for him to have stepped down. We don't want that sort of thing happening here/again.
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#64 JRMacClure
Ah, but Labour and the Torys would subsidise school trips to Flodden, Culloden and Pinkie.
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58. Online_Ed
Is this any help
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#65. At 10:04pm on 10 Sep 2009, cynicalHighlander wrote:
64. JRMacClure
"One might wonder WHY certain politicians oppose Scots learning about their own history."
Em Truth!
--------------
Truth? So you're saying Bannockburn is NOT a part of Scottish history and did not happen? Scotland sprang suddenly into existence in 1707 with the formation of the union. And Culloden was all a figment of our imagination?
According to some ANYTHING that has to do with Scotland is "Anti-English". It is a slap in the face to Scottish educators to say they are incapable of giving a balanced account of those parts of history.
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69 cynicalHighlander:
Thanks, I'll have a look.
I was looking for a simple statement from The Scottish Government though.
Anyway, this gives me a chance suggest everyone go to see the new movie:
Dour-Iain Gray.
About a man who no-one knows the more his portrait appears in the media the less people want to know him.
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71. JRMacClure
Welcomed to how Scotland has been indoctrinated since the beginning of the union by ignoring anything that might jeopardize their cosy private club at Westminster. (my spellchecker doesn't like ""cosy!")
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i'm not a historian, but around the 13th/14th centuries were we not spemding as much time fighting ourselves as well as the english?
gedguy what i was really saying is that i dont think brown decided "oh let's rescue the journalist", rather the military suggested it but need his authority to carry out the mission.
but i'm concerned that this is the second time this journalist has been kidnapped. its good we have journalists out there getting the truth, but in doing so they are putting other's lives at risk.
newsnight is worth watching as it is highlighting the fixed elections over there.
maybe the chinese are powerful enough to control afghanistan but i doubt it.
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It's like 79 again.
Watching Gray is like watching wee Curran and all the other tribalists.
Appearing to get stuck in to Eck might work in parts of Glasgow and Lanarkshire but not elsewhere.
What is funny about this is Gray actually thinks he is statesmanlike.
He might shore up some of the core vote, but that is all. That vote is declining through death and failure.
Much of what remains is not a unionist vote. Never was in truth. That's what panics Brown and Murphy.
Nationalist votes are no longer just protests. Many like me are now converts. The floating voters will watch, listen and consider what to do. They are not fooled by Gray's (or even Bella's) cheap attempts to spread the blame.
Labour will struggle to regain support. Brown has blown it in England. Everything he touches turns to dust and as his reign comes to an end the heartland vote is still asking where is the reward for all the years of suffering. The membership has allowed the party to be highjacked by careerists who have run it aground. There is no core message.
Gray is bound to follow wherever London leads. He can't break free. He has no agenda of his own except to oppose everything
and anything that Salmond does.
And it makes Gray look petty.
How much more can the troops take ?
When Dave wins next May, Labour is heading for schism.
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75. At 10:45pm on 10 Sep 2009, govanite
"When Dave wins next May, Labour is heading for schism"
I pray your correct on both counts!
74. At 10:42pm on 10 Sep 2009, barbarian9
"its good we have journalists out there getting the truth, but in doing so they are putting other's lives at risk."
The inevitabe downside to quality, focused journalism. Not the Fox news rubbish, repeating stuff they heard about from some un named source.
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# 74 barbarian9
'rather the military suggested it but need his authority to carry out the mission.'
If it was just that then there would be no story for the papers. The fact that the English papers and media are bringing this up tends to point to it being the other way around.
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#73. At 10:38pm on 10 Sep 2009, cynicalHighlander wrote:
71. JRMacClure
Welcomed to how Scotland has been indoctrinated since the beginning of the union by ignoring anything that might jeopardize their cosy private club at Westminster. (my spellchecker doesn't like ""cosy!")
--------------
Ah, I see what you're saying. Try cozy. ;)
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# 72 Online_Ed
'Dour-Iain Gray'
ROFL. I had to read that twice before I got. Well done.
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#74. At 10:42pm on 10 Sep 2009, barbarian9 wrote:
i'm not a historian, but around the 13th/14th centuries were we not spemding as much time fighting ourselves as well as the english?
--------------
There was a civil war which the English used as their excuse for an invasion. The Bruce and the Comyn/Baliol factions didn't get on and the Plantagenet rulers of England never passed up an opportunity to conquer a neighbor.
That is irrelevant to the Battle of Bannockburn where Edward II got his tail well and truly whipped. The Scots came within an inch of capturing him and it was Aymer de Valence's good sense that got him away.
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This is getting ridiculous! It would appear anyone can stand and make an inaccurate comment and its reported as fact.My daughter recently left school,her knowledge of history taught -the first world war.(a very narrow version mind you targets and all that).Does this minister not realise kids nowadays visit Barcelona,Paris and New York.To visit Bannockburn would be in Primary schools where funny enough they have a Scots week (established before the SNP got in)to try as part of a broad curriculum to educate them about the country they will most likely grow up in,pay taxes in,breed children in etc etc etc
by the way,good one online ed
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#30
Just noticed dean's use of a shallow and fatuous argument on the free school milk issue.
This sort of nonsense is paraded any time anyone suggests giving some useful, health inducing benefit to the undeserving poor to try to stop it being done. It's called tabloid toryism.
THE RICH HAVE ALREADY PAID,DEAN. THEIR TAXES PAY FOR FOR ALL SUCH ENLIGHTENED SCHEMES. WHY SHOULD THEY THEN BE EXCLUDED FROM THE BENEFITS OR MADE TO PAY TWICE FOR THEM. IF ANYBODY SHOULD HAVE THE SCHOOL MILK IT IS THE CHILDREN OF THOSE WHO PAY FOR THE UNIVERSAL SUPPLY OF IT.
For someone who affects to despise the works of Margaret Thatcher you show an amazing capacity for echoing some of her worse features.
It is in fact cheaper to supply free school milk to everybody than to put in place and administer a means tested system.
Apart from anything else we produce and throw away a huge surplus in milk.
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83. At 11:27pm on 10 Sep 2009, sneckedagain
"For someone who affects to despise the works of Margaret Thatcher you show an amazing capacity for echoing some of her worse features.
It is in fact cheaper to supply free school milk to everybody than to put in place and administer a means tested system.
Apart from anything else we produce and throw away a huge surplus in milk"
I am just worried about the financial costs of universal free milk.
But you do have a good point about them already having paid in their taxes.
And I do hope I dont exhibit a thatchers ghost spirit too much!
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#41 and #81, ah beeb censorship what right do we mere mortals have to know of the medication of those who govern us from distant whitehall?!
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#72 Online_Ed 'Anyway, this gives me a chance suggest everyone go to see the new movie:
Dour-Iain Gray'.....is it straight to DVD ?
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79. gedguy2# 72 Online_Ed
'Dour-Iain Gray'
ROFL. I had to read that twice before I got. Well done.
Great minds think alike! ;o)
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By the way, isn't there some LAW or something about having that Glasgow North East byelection? Or can they put that off--like permanently?
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58: ON_LINE ED: No link but this may be of help: The Scottish Government published minutes from the meeting which it said proved nothing improper had happened. The minutes stated the Qatar government, which at the time chaired the Arab League, said the issue of Megrahi had been discussed at a recent meeting of the league. They went on "The First Minister explained this was a judicial matter and politics should not and will not be part of any consideration and that the decision by the cabinet secretary for justice would be determined purely on merit and in line with the prisoner transfer agreement. It added, 'The First Minister declined to be drawn further on the matter.'"
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Moderators REALLY hate any mention of medication, I notice. Now I wonder why that is. =)
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#91 JRMacClure
I like your smiley, is it because your eyes are being held open with matchsticks? 8-)
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#92 Not really. I just like that one. It's only 6pm here. You're the insomniac. ;)
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#89 JRMacClure
The UK Parliament doesn't like laws about themselves. They might have to obey them! It's all a matter of convention.
The SNP could move the motion themselves to hold the bye-election, but we're just about to enter the UK Party Conference (=Convention) season, and every one wants to wait and see if the Labour Party implodes, and we move quickly to a General Election.
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#94 So some time or another you'll get around to having an election? You know--that's weird.
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A General Election would just be for the UK parliament, though, right? Not for the Scottish Parliament.
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RE 45
- The ability to teach and then learn from your own history with out being accused of slighting others.
Can you imagine the outcry if the idea of organising English kids to visit Hastings or Naseby was classed as being backward looking or parochial?
In additon to Scottish kids visiting Bannockburn and Culloden I'd recommend English, Irish, French kids, etc, visit, they'd find it informative and interesting.
Desperation, from a desperate union organ.
D McN
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# 87 forfar-loon
I'll have to remember that description if I ever have the misfortune to use his name.
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# 94 oldnat &
# 95 JRMacClure
Isn't that just typical of the Labour party. They would rather play party politics than make sure a constituency (which has backed them for years) has an MP to look after the affairs of the good people of Glasgow NE. The Labour party should hang their heads in shame!
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# 97 Donald_McNairn
Having did a small stint as a radio reporter for an independent radio station a few years back I would have to point out to you that this story has originated at BBC Scotland. Someone, in the department, has decided this was a good (?) story and has contacted people to get their point of view. This is then broadcast as a news story.
These 'news stories' just don't happen; someone has to initiate it in the first place. It may be that the BBC Scotland news department has been trawling through newspapers and decided to copy it or someone in the department decided it was worth bringing to the attention of the general public. Whichever way it was I thank the BBC Scotland news department for producing another nail in the coffin of those that decided to answer their call for it is obvious to any sensible person just how stupid the spin is that they have put on this innocent Scottish government story. Keep it up BBC Scotland you're doing a grand job.
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Another scandal under the watch of the Labour party as Rover bosses took £42m from firm. We all remember that Labour instigated an inquiry when there should have been an investigation by the serious fraud squad. Over £100 million pounds of our money has gone, not to mention the jobs that were lost. We should demand that the serious Fraud Squad do the investigation that they should have been allowed to do in the first place.
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#101 gedguy2
We should demand that the serious Fraud Squad do the investigation that they should have been allowed to do in the first place.
Some months ago the Lord Meddlesome received the completed report and did just that. After a months deliberation they, the SFO, could not find any evidence so they kicked it back to Lord Meddlesome. He subsequently kicked it into the long grass. I am a bit surprised this report has shown up at all. I wonder how much redaction it will contain?
If you read the article I linked to at #44, above, it will shed more light on it.
But of course you are correct. This whole episode stinks!
The other thing that gets my back up is that the report cost the taxpayer, US, £16M.
But there again, along with the £100M you state, £116M is a trifling figure as far as NuLabour squandering goes.
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Re visits to Bannockburn and Culloden etc, my kids have been away from school for over 10 years an yet they went on School trips to both as well as the Wallace Monument, Stirling and Edinburgh Castles - i find it preposterous that the Tories would try to suppress our heritage with this ludicrous accusation.
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#103 skintybroko I am quite concerned that the school my kids go to at present would have to be re-named if the Tory's got their way .
The Wallace primary school - would that brake the rules??
there is no where near enough "Scottish History" taught in our schools it is as if it is a dirty wee secret that no one talks about.
Sid
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re that conversation between messrs Brown and Obama and the release of Mr Megrahi:
"Mr Brown had made it clear the decision had been a matter for the Scottish government, the spokesman added."
Perfectly true, but it comes over more like "a big boy did it and ran away"
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#21. At 3:40pm on 10 Sep 2009, Caledonian54 wrote:
"I note (without surprise) that the Bulgarians are unhappy about Mr Straw’s decision to release a young man convicted of attempted murder because he (and he alone) was personally satisfied after reviewing the evidence that the conviction was unsafe."
I've been asking about this on various boards. - There are very significant common factors. But there are 2 key differences to explore:
1) Jack Straw MET (yes MET!) the Family and accepted evidence they presented privately as grounds for Pardon. - He accepted it, yet it was untested in court. - He declared the man "Morally innocent" without a hearing, thus placing himself in open contempt of a legal process in foreign courts. - Incidentally, the basis of Pardon is acceptance of guilt, so Straw's suggestion of innocence is inappropriate for this legal procedure.
2) He was "one of ours" so it was OK to release him. - Bulgarian outrage is not a concern, by implication.
Ian Gray is not responsible for this decision, but it reflects badly on his position. For it shows how arbitrarily his party such issues. - There is no oil, but are there votes to be had, for releasing this man.?
Back to FMQ's:- "Labour's Iain Gray certainly pursued Diageo. However, he seemed a little uncertain as to which avenue to follow."
This will surely be his downfall, being forced to face 2 ways on many issues. - Being a satellite of westminster is a handicap, an achilles heel that all opponents can see.
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Caledonian54 - I assume you are having the same problem as I have, that the Beeb is so quiet on this matter, that there are no threads which regard it as "on-topic". - Yet it is important, if for no other reason than the timing of Mr Straw's action.
This matter has been before him for some time, yet he choses to act in the shadow of Megrahi, and at a time when the Govt needs a boost to popularity. - I recall Barabbas being released bya similar process. - (Moderator, this is a humourous remark, not suggesting any similarity between the respective convicts!)
Brown's posture of hiding behind the Macaskill's kilt and blaming someone else is not acceptable.
As I've noted before, and again the Beeb don't want to know, the Foreign Office is not a devolved function. Therefore it is the DUTY of FCO to represent Scottish position (as part of the UK) on this, not to hang us out to dry! - They have not bee challenged on this, why not..?
Iain Gray is not responsible for this, but he is a member of that party. It undermines his position if he cannot be seen to tackle these issues.
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# 102 Roll_On_2010
'After a months deliberation they, the SFO, could not find any evidence so they kicked it back to Lord Meddlesome'
This is similar to the 'snouts in the trough' MPs some of them hadn't broken any rules but had 'abused' the rules, as opposed to the 'snouts in trough' MPs who had deliberately deceived the House of Commons and are or should be subject to a police investigation for fraud. I am also wary of the term 'could not find any evidence' (I'm not too sure if this was a term that you used or the SFO used) which is commonly used by government inquiries to 'kick into the long grass' things that they wish to disappear because it is embarrassing. In other words, if they don't look in certain places then they can say that they haven't found it. As usual, when it comes to government activities, it stinks. These men have legally (?) walked off with our money and there is nothing we can do about it!
As to your other point, yes I had read the article and was furious that our taxes are off to a foreign country to subsidise their workerforce whilst our workforce will end up losing their jobs and have to be supported by the State, which means that the taxpayer will is subsiding the unemployed over here as well. You couldn't make this up especially under the auspices of a political party voted in by the workers for the benefit of the workers. The Labour heroes of yesteryear must be turning in their graves! This man Brown should be put on the same list as Maggie Thatcher and used as a term for abuse. He even exceeds Harold Wilson in contempt for economically destroying this country.
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Jeezo, the torries have fairly got the wind up about making children aware of our "secret past". Aye! Scotlands party for sure.
If you wait long enough the rat will always lead you to its hole;)
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More info on the MG scandal: Rover bosses' pay 'unreasonable'. An understatement if I ever heard it. However, it is not just them that the article is highlighting but also:
'whitewash for the government'
Putting aside the thrust of this article for a moment as I have already made my views clear in # 108, there is another underlying 'problem' with this article. It is apparant that the BBC in England is now in 'open warfare' with the Labour government, but its sister department (BBC Scotland) is not doing the same to the Labour party in Scotland. I wonder why this is?
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#108 gedguy2
I agree with every word of your post but would like to add to one of your comments:
"This man Brown should be put on the same list as Maggie Thatcher and used as a term for abuse."
Child poverty reduced if both parents go to work.
Now if this is not an illustration that Jimmy Brown = Maggie Thatcher….. What is?
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#107/108 Indeed!
What then of the furore if Mr Megrahi had been repatriated under the PTA and the Libyans, instead of throwing away the key, had followed Mr Straw's sterling example by unilaterally releasing him?
Was this perhaps what was hoped for in certain quarters? After all the Libyan government has never made any secret of their stance that Mr Megrahi is innocent so its a fair assumption that they would have "pardoned" him.
Now that being said, given the extraordinary timing I do wonder about Mr Straw's real motives. It would appear from the correspondence released by the Scottish Government that Mr Straw was originally opposed to including Mr Megrahi in the Libyan PTA, but was then leant upon. Is he now demonstrating why he was opposed to it?
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As to this ridiculous furore over the government subsidising visits to Bannockburn and Culloden; we can all spend forever arguing over the true significance of both events and who did what to who and why, but no-one on either side of the debate can deny that they are pivotal events in Scottish history.
It is vitally important therefore that children are given the opportunity to visit those battlefields and to appreciate that they are real places and that events actually happened there and not in a comic book or on a piece of celluloid – for example on my first visit to Texas I remember the distinctly odd feeling when someone casually mentioned that the area we were driving through used to be Comanche country.
So far what they are told about by either of those events when they get there, I think its fair to say that while the National Trust for Scotland has attracted the odd knock over the years, nobody has ever claimed it to be a front organisation for the SNP
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#107 wrote "As I've noted before, and again the Beeb don't want to know, the Foreign Office is not a devolved function. Therefore it is the DUTY of FCO to represent Scottish position (as part of the UK) on this, not to hang us out to dry! - They have not bee challenged on this, why not..?
Iain Gray is not responsible for this, but he is a member of that party. It undermines his position if he cannot be seen to tackle these issues."
Interesting point, presumably its Mr Murphy's job as SoS to ensure that the FCO does represent the Scottish Government's legitimate exercise of its powers
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#111. Well, let me ask you (or perhaps I should say Mr. Brown) this:
WHERE the heck are the jobs for both parents to go to work? Maybe at that defunct BMW Rover plant?
I don't know about you, but over here ONE parent is doing well to find a job much less both.
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# 111 Roll_On_2010
Where are those people going to get the jobs in the first place? Even if they do get a job, it is all nice and fine for those middle class professionals to state stupid remarks about childcare but do they realise how much this will cost those on the bottom of the pile? Get real! This is just another of those middle class dinner party conversations where, over a couple of glasses of chablis, they sort out the whole of the world's problems without one iota of understanding the implications of what they are saying. These are the same people who talk about saving the world from greenhouse gasses then jump into their Chelsea wagons to drive back home around the corner. Basically, it's flog those at the bottom of the pile because it makes them feel superior. Disgusting.
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97. At 05:15am on 11 Sep 2009, Donald_McNairn
I entirely agree with your sentiments.
Culloden is a moment in our history which every Scottish child should go to, to learn and 'feel' a little of Scottish Jacobite heritage and traditions.
Indeed as I've already pointed out, there is nothing 'nationalistic' about it at all! The legends who died where fighting for a British wide restoration of the royal house.
113. At 11:41am on 11 Sep 2009, Caledonian54
"I think its fair to say that while the National Trust for Scotland has attracted the odd knock over the years, nobody has ever claimed it to be a front organisation for the SNP"
LOL- dont you realise there are nats under the bed?
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Coming to the aid of the FCO it is well known that their agenda is always at odds to whichever government is power in Westminster at that particular moment in time. Their job is to smooth relations with foreign countries, if possible, and if that is at odds with domestic policy then that is their problem and not the problem of the FCO. Sorry, but there you go.
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#114: Absolutely correct, for the Compassionate Release would have been Murphy's decision, pre-devolution.
It remains his duty to ensure the non-devolved matters are handled by the UK Govt. - If he was batting for Scotland, he would unsure that the PM & FM executed their obligation to represent Scotland abroad.
Actually, Murphy's ONLY duty is to see that non-devolved issues are handled correctly in London. - It looks like he failed to step up to the crease.?
This damages the Union, for it shows that Westminster is not defending the Union abroad.
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#115 JRMacClure
#111. Well, let me ask you (or perhaps I should say Mr. Brown) this:
WHERE the heck are the jobs for both parents to go to work? Maybe at that defunct BMW Rover plant?
I don't know about you, but over here ONE parent is doing well to find a job much less both.
I nearly added to the end of my post: Work - What work?
I would agree to your statement above but the UK is far worse of than the USA for recovering.
US Baillout as a % of GDP = 25.8
UK Baillout as a % of GDP = 94.4
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Battlefield neglect is a major problem. All too often neglect, complacency or frankly an ignorance as to their importance prevaides the hearts and minds of those in power.
Look at Culloden, it has suffered from the planting of trees in the 19th Century, and didn't even have a visitors centre till much more reciently.
And what about battlefield sites like Prestonpans, or Killiecrankie?
How many of our school children really understand the importance of these sites, what they symbolise and what men died on the soil for?
All too often I read about motorist pipe dreams planning to lay concrete through the heart of battlefields such as Killiecrankie, and who honestly can we say protests loudest?
This project of bringing school children to these sites, may just offer them a feel and touch of them. And more importantly encourage the further development and protection of these sites for greater tourism. And of course makes plans to build roads etc through them impossible.
The Inverness Courrier ran a really interesting article on the costs of battlefield neglect, its well worth a read:
http://www.inverness-courier.co.uk/news/fullstory.php/aid/10400/Battlefield_neglect_could_be_costly.html
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Try this, which I hadn't noticed. Tory vampire attacks Straw's decision over Biggs Compassionate Release. - Suggests Megrahi link...
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/21/20090910/tuk-bomber-biggs-link-claim-offensive-6323e80.html
"His letter suggests Mr Straw overturned a previous decision not to free Biggs because the Justice Secretary knew Megrahi was about to be returned to Libya by the Scottish Government."
"If this was indeed true, it would amount to a very serious breach of the principles you were, by law, required to apply in the Biggs case," he added.
"The reason for this change of mind on your part has never been satisfactorily explained," Mr Howard wrote. "If Megrahi had been released on compassionate grounds so that he did not die in prison, while you adhered to your original decision in the Biggs case, the contrast would, of course, have been stark and obvious"
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# 119 luibeg
'for the Compassionate Release would have been Murphy's decision, pre-devolution.'
Which is probably why we have never seen nor heard from him while all this was and is going on!
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#117 Dean,
You may be right.
An anagram of The National Trust for Scotland is
"So Ultra-Nats chatter fond of oil"
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This is interesting Ian Swanson: Civil war is brewing over independence.
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The first paragraphs of posts 74 and 75 are a charming juxtaposition. Plus ca change, plus ca meme chose...can anyone think of a contemporary political character who sould suit the nickname 'toom tabard'?
I don't think there can be many countries where school trips to major national historic battlegrounds are denounced by serious political parties as 'propaganda'. It certainly doesn't make the denouncers look very clever. "Keep them away from their history in case it contaminates them with wrong thinking" is a bit, you know, Orwellian.
As for the Diageo debate, Iain Gray continues to oppose the SNP on a basis of Marxism.
Groucho Marxism, that is:
"I don't know what they have to say,
It makes no difference anyway,
Whatever it is, I'm against it.
No matter what it is or who commenced it,
I'm against it.
Your proposition may be good,
But let's have one thing understood,
Whatever it is, I'm against it.
And even when you've changed it or condensed it,
I'm against it.
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#125: The Union is certainly being strained, from both ends. But I would take that article from The Hootsman with a little salt at hand.
But it is true that the Union has been damaged by current UK Govt, possibly due to their own political weakness. - And what of the future UK Govt? It's likely that DC will be happy to sacrifice the Northern Kingdom, in pursuit of electoral endorsement south of Carlisle.
So, little prospect of commitment to the Union improving after the General Elections.
Currently, the SNP need do nothing to wreck the Union. The UK Govt is doing fine on it's own. - Situation unsustainable.?
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Grouch Marxism, I love it. - Can I offer this imaginary quotation:
"I wouldn't be First Minister of any Parlianent that would be willing to have me as a First Minister!"
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# 127 luibeg
I remeber hearing something in passing in the Scottish parliament yesterday. I can't remember what or by whom but it was something along those lines and I didn't pay much attention to it as I didn't know what that person was referring to. However, the Svotsman was putting over both sides of the story in roughly equal terms. What's wrong with the Scotsman? Have they suddenly had a change of heart? At the end of the day does it really matter if civil sevants do their job and try to make allowances for all forseeable eventualites?
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To the sad unionist few, it is more important than Scots children learn about 4 different eras of German history (Holy Roman Empire, Unification/Bismarck, WW1 [all their fault], the Nazis and the Holocaust) than ever hear tell of this strange country that once existed called "Scotland"!
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Matthew Norman, The Independent,
"Pass the Pills"
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/matthew-norman/matthew-norman-prepare-for-months-of-dreary-torture-and-pass-the-pills-1784467.html
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Re 30
Sorry Dean didn't mean to ignore you. Your tendancies are very tory though. And non tory can utter a word if truth be told without the spirit of thatcher seeping through.
But any way, I never meant it to be personnal, but since you responding in such a fashion I must point out that there was a question accompanying the attempted witt, which you never answered.
What about the standards that parents should have installed in children, thereby preventing the need to use the compasionate measure of segregation?
Your soloution only punishes the child even more for not having the fortune of having a half descent up bringing. Very dangerous in a child under ten.
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From post 74
"i'm not a historian, but around the 13th/14th centuries were we not spemding as much time fighting ourselves as well as the english?"
And the point here is.....?
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125: -
What a disgusting pun? I have been accused of enticing a riot for much much less!
Sometimes its hard to comprehend the slants that media are allowed to use. Hight time they were legally bound in some manner to be absolutely impartial and regulated/scrutinised by an independent watchdog.
'After thought' We'd probably need an independent watchdog to regulate the independent watchdog 8+)
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#132 Phil_Anthropponent
"What about the standards that parents should have installed in children, thereby preventing the need to use the compasionate measure of segregation?"
A noble thought and one which as a responsible parent agree with, however after decades of school kids getting away with a helluva lot, they dont have to show respect for teachers, class disruption has been a way of life for many teachers over that time and of course these kids are now parents themselves and many have no sense of respect for education and so are unlikely to provide their children with standards.
There is no overnight fix, it has taken decades to decimate the system and no doubt it will take decades to fix it. Coming from an era before the comprehensive system was introduced I found right through my schooling that teachers were repected and looked up to and my parents set these standards - maybe we should consider going back to that level of segregation.
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#132: Phil.
"Your soloution only punishes the child even more for not having the fortune of having a half descent up bringing. Very dangerous in a child under ten. "
Wrong, it doesn't "ONLY punish". - It actually liberates staff to each, and liberates the well-behaved to learn in peace. - That is a valuable achievement to anybody recently involved in education.
Segregation is not "punishment", it is a constructive approach. - It directs difficult children into a different learning environment, one appropriate to THEIR needs.
teachers acknowledge this need for a separate regime, for it is the path to improved achievement for both the well-behaved and the ill-behaved.
It's a constructive approach as far as the professionals are concerned.
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On Radio 4 today (yes Radio 4) there was a discussion about tourism in Scotland and the 'Homecoming'. According to Visit Scotland there was uncertainty about its value and its outcome, because it had never been done before, but it has proved to be an out and out success story. So credit where it's due!
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135: -
Point taken, to a point. I don't think it's the education system as opposed to society in general that has been decimated though, which is why I have to disagree almost entirely with post 136. It is punishment, and I know a few professionals myself who would agree, granted, not educational pros. We are closing the satble door after the horse has bolted, focussing on it when it gets to schools. Sticking plaster for the broken leg. But I wouldn't be entirely opposed to it on a very short term basis while targetting the emotional and diciplinery needs of the child, if we start giving powers back to parents. But we must remember it is not the childs fault, i'm afraid. To start "blaming" them is completely the wrong thing to do.
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P.S. to last post
It's time teachers were re-empowered too and given back the moral authority they used to have. Yeah you're right skinty, it will take a long time.
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132. At 3:50pm on 11 Sep 2009, Phil_Anthropponent
"Your soloution only punishes the child even more for not having the fortune of having a half descent up bringing. Very dangerous in a child under ten."
You raise in important point. And I fully accept your argument that the parental guilt in childhood behavioural problems must be addressed to.
You are correct.
However this process must not disuade us from the neccessity to punish the child to teach right from wrong.
But the parental responsiblities also need consideration. You are correct.
"I never meant it to be personnal"
Sorry the wit was lost on me, my fault not yours. I appologise for firing off in such a fashion.
Dean
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Phil, teachers recognise your point that children should arrive at school having obtained good social behaviour skills at home. - That's the ideal, and everybody wants it. - Teachers who want to teach, kids who want to learn. Perfect.
The reality on the ground is that teachers are routinely abused in horrific ways, and other kids have to witness it. - that's not good, whatever you think of the abusive kids.
While we try to fix the homes they come from, we also need a CONSTRUCTIVE routing for these poorer kids through the school. - To force them through a path that they rebel against is not wise.
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128 luibeg wrote
"I wouldn't be First Minister of any Parliament that would be willing to have me as a First Minister!"
lol, I reckon giggity greyman should get that on a t-shirt.
On the subject of the battlefield visits, how stunningly clever the nationalists have been. They thought it was a good idea and it is but they also knew it was a trap the dopey unionists couldn't help themselves from walking right into.
All the publicity generated by these paranoid cringers afraid Scots schoolchildren will be indoctrinated by the SNP at award winning National Trust For Scotland historical sites is worth it's weight in gold.
Even non-SNP supporters can see the how bad it looks to deny schoolchildren their own country's history but these clowns have been programmed like Pavlov's dogs to jump up salivating and barking when they hear the word SNP and now they do it without thinking.
Fido in Scotland duly reports the furore ( and for the most part agrees because sadly there's plenty of cringe to go round).
I fully expect a joint journalistic effort from the wee peroxide gallus besom Muriel Gray and Jenny Hjul.
They'll decry this disgusting initiative where Mel Gibson marches impressionable Scots weans round the battlefield to watch English residents of Inverness being mercilessly pelted with tattie scones and no child is allowed home until they can play the bagpipes to competition standard and knit their own semets out of bog myrtle.
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#125. At 1:08pm on 11 Sep 2009, gedguy2 wrote:
This is interesting Ian Swanson: Civil war is brewing over independence.
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Heavens above. They forgot the hysteria.
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140. deanthetory
"However this process must not disuade us from the neccessity to punish the child to teach right from wrong."
I have no respect for a lot of politians, the police are questionable in there politisation, numerous councilors etc am I in need of punishment!
Respect has to be earned and until politics and other authoritarian "betters" are cleaned up can we have any hope of producing a better society lead by example and all that.
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144. At 6:15pm on 11 Sep 2009, cynicalHighlander
While I recognise your point about respect being earned, the purpose of schooling is to prepare children for life. Life involves work, effort, and the ability to accept authority- whether it be your employers or your fathers.
Rogues, rebels at school distrupt the learning process for other, more dignified pupils. Teachers are abused, others witness just as luibeg said (141).
Respect for ones teachers is not the issue anyway, we are talking of needless distruptive children, who play up, and misbehave unacceptably.
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#145 Dean ..'Respect for ones teachers is not the issue anyway, we are talking of needless distruptive children, who play up, and misbehave unacceptably' every kid needs a dad to boot them in the a** when they misbehave .. a dad - not 2 dads or 2 mums but a mum and dad.
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#145. At 6:39pm on 11 Sep 2009, deanthetory wrote:
144. At 6:15pm on 11 Sep 2009, cynicalHighlander
While I recognise your point about respect being earned, the purpose of schooling is to prepare children for life. Life involves work, effort, and the ability to accept authority- whether it be your employers or your fathers.
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I have to agree with Dean here. The disruptive children, for their own benefit, must be taught how to get on the world which does NOT include absolute subservience but at least a minimal courtesy to others. The other children and the teachers should not be given, through bad behavior being tolerated, be both abused and the children taught that such is acceptable in the larger world.
Try it once in the workplace where most of us end up earning our daily bread.
I don't think there is any easy solution (and don't mistake it's only a problem over your way) but solutions must be found. Segregation should be used only as a means to protect other children and to teach the problem children better behavior, though, and not as a way of turning schools into prisons.
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133. At 3:57pm on 11 Sep 2009, Phil_Anthropponent wrote:
From post 74
"i'm not a historian, but around the 13th/14th centuries were we not spemding as much time fighting ourselves as well as the english?"
And the point here is.....?
and your point is......?
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#148. At 7:15pm on 11 Sep 2009, barbarian9 wrote:
133. At 3:57pm on 11 Sep 2009, Phil_Anthropponent wrote:
From post 74
"i'm not a historian, but around the 13th/14th centuries were we not spemding as much time fighting ourselves as well as the english?"
And the point here is.....?
and your point is......?
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I seem to recall that the ENGLISH were generally fighting amongst themselves...
Or did I imagine Edward II being deposed being in the history books?
Perhaps internal fighting should not have been an invitation for conquest by a foreign power?
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#149 JR - 'Perhaps internal fighting should not have been an invitation for conquest by a foreign power? ' I think your Native Indians would agree with that statement.
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#150. At 7:42pm on 11 Sep 2009, ubinworryinmasheep wrote:
#149 JR - 'Perhaps internal fighting should not have been an invitation for conquest by a foreign power? ' I think your Native Indians would agree with that statement.
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And I think you're right. Not that we bothered with an excuse.
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A couple of points on the Ian Swanson article, referred to above.
Firstly, no surprise to find Lord Foulkes at the forefront of the attack on the position of Scotland's civil service - leaping to the familiar lapdog defence of 'holy and eternal'(?!) unionism.
What does come as a refreshing shock is the overall balance, especially for a Scotsman article - except perhaps for the suspect motive behind the final, virtually pointless statement.
Fully expected an entirely one-sided perspective on this.
Maybe they tried, only to find there are indeed two sides to any story!
Interesting that the 'usual suspects' are decrying the Scottish civil service for complying with Scottish Government policy, yet not an eyebrow raised that some of the 'majority' of Scottish-based civil servants may be engaged in "English business"!!!
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147. JRMacClure
By targeting the children as the guilty party when it is possibly the same behavior that they go home to it confuses them. I try to look at problems logically in that I try and find out the reason why something has gone wrong to reduce the occurrence of the failure. Suggestions poverty, increasing disparity between rich and poor, centralisation of everything, loss of public parks to greedy property developers and....
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#153. At 8:27pm on 11 Sep 2009, cynicalHighlander wrote:
147. JRMacClure
By targeting the children as the guilty party when it is possibly the same behavior that they go home to it confuses them. I try to look at problems logically in that I try and find out the reason why something has gone wrong to reduce the occurrence of the failure. Suggestions poverty, increasing disparity between rich and poor, centralisation of everything, loss of public parks to greedy property developers and....
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So we write off the children who are misbehaving and the children they're preventing from learning until we solve the underlying problems?
That's where I disagree. We have to try to salvage as much of this mess as we can. I think I said that this was not by any means a total solution.
I don't think they'll necessarily be that confused though. Most of us learn that the behavior that is acceptable in the local pub or at a football game is NOT acceptable in the work place. This is not an unreasonable lesson to expect schools to teach.
I agree on the underlying problems and that they need to be solved. I simply don't think we can wait the decades (possibly longer?) until that happens, in effect writing off children who are left uneducated and unable to effectively function in society.
I suspect we are very much on the same page about social changes that are needed.
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154. JRMacClure
"That's where I disagree. We have to try to salvage as much of this mess as we can. I think I said that this was not by any means a total solution."
That's like mopping up the mess from a leaking bucket it will slowly get worse, stop the leak is the priority as this problem has been getting worse for decades as it was even a problem back in my day.
Children "grow up" quicker these days which results in this behavior starting earlier in schools so instead of disturbing a couple of years of school life its four or five. Where it will end who knows as the financial resources for the future are heading of the cliff.
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#155. That's like mopping up the mess from a leaking bucket it will slowly get worse, stop the leak is the priority as this problem has been getting worse for decades as it was even a problem back in my day.
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I suspect we're going to disagree on this. I still think that when the plumbing springs a leak sure you call the plumber--but you also mop up the mess.
And unfortunately I'm not very optimistic about any plumber arriving to clean up the underlying problems which are getting worse instead of better. I'm not saying don't try--but I get more discouraged about that by the day.
I'd just like to see an attempt to save the kids as difficult as it is. From my point of view, punishment really isn't the issue, but just a salvage operation.
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156. JRMacClure
"I suspect we're going to disagree on this. I still think that when the plumbing springs a leak sure you call the plumber--but you also mop up the mess."
I turn the water off first see what the problem is and call the plumber if needed. Truce I need to lick my wounds.
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My tuppence on Children and the UK
No matter which reforms ANY party at Holyrood impliment - children, teenagers and parents in Scotland will still be influenced by factors beyond the control of the Scottish government.
Namely the UK and all that we share with it.
Perversely - its that kind of cultural overbearing that influences life in Scotland more than anything. People in Scotland as an example - were most probably more aware of how David Beckhams metatarsal was healing on the run up to the 2002 world cup than they were that the Scottish parliament had passed the Comunity care and Health Act 2002 - entitling Scots to free personal care, free nursing care and other assorted social benefits that (in my own opinion) deserved front page headlines just as much some overhyped, overpaid footballer.
How else are you going to instill change in Scotland when the likes of Eastenders shows underage, pregnant children smoking and drinking like it's a regular occurence. Good luck changing anything with that overbearing influence on your country.
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This doesn't help.
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#159. Police cooties! Mr. Brown was wisely avoiding getting police cooties. (lurgy in your part of the world?)
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158. At 10:32pm on 11 Sep 2009, GAberdeen:
you cannot blame the uk for the problem with scotland's children. the responsibility lies primarily with the parents. most children are well behaved generally, but a minority will cause problems.
before we had tv we had problems, as did every nation on earth.
most people do not have a strong interest in politics, and children even less so. teenagers (i have one) don't have interest in free health care; they like football.
the uk is responsible for a lot of our problems, and we would be better off on our own. but we need to use logical and more importantly popular arguments to gather the majority of support that is needed.
i remember when i was at school how two boys in my year were sent to borstal for two months or so each. both came out reformed. yes it was brutal but it gave them the metaphorical kick up the backside they needed.
not all will reform, and not matter what we do that will always be the case.
but sort the parents out where possible.
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28. At 4:52pm on 10 Sep 2009, JRMacClure wrote:
"The fact is, sadly, that our world is largely run by MULTINATIONAL corporations over which individual governments, including some with a heck of a lot more power than Scotland's currently has, have very little if any control.
Let's get real here. There wasn't a thing the SNP or Labour or the Tories could have done beyond what was done. Diego had made up its mind and pretended to listen as a PR move. Then they did what they wanted to and no government was going to stop them.
The power of multinational corporations is a revolution in the making. They are the current kings in our little medieval setup and one day the peasants may wake up and there may be guillotines in the offing."
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You are so right!
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45. At 7:33pm on 10 Sep 2009, Donald_McNairn wrote:
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Pretty much nailed it there Donald.
Couldn't agree more.
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Anent disruptive children:
Some part of the disruption will be because education does not matter any more for those who have opted for the benefits half-life and transmitted this lack of ideals to their offspring.
Anent Labour's "attacks" on the SNP:
UK Labour have become a party of scare-mongers who, having no morals or merits with which to impress the voter, now depend on creating a culture of fear. They've copied the tactics of the Labour Party in Scotland. You only have to look to Scotland to see how they've operated as the grand masters at this for decades.
Quote from Haver post@21:21 to John Harris 'A weird, neurotic leader ...' in the Guardian 09/09/09
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re: Scottish history
Having been born and raised in a southern state in the USA I can tell you this. History depends on who won the war and who's telling the tell.
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#165 gduwright ..welcome to this blog .. tell me have you Americans just found out Scotland is a real place with a mind of its own ? We have JRMacClure posting from across the water as well now. Whats your opinion on letting Al Megrahi go on compassionate grounds ?
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#157. At 10:00pm on 11 Sep 2009, cynicalHighlander wrote:
156. JRMacClure
"I suspect we're going to disagree on this. I still think that when the plumbing springs a leak sure you call the plumber--but you also mop up the mess."
I turn the water off first see what the problem is and call the plumber if needed. Truce I need to lick my wounds.
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No wounding intended. :)
An interesting discussion of different opinions.
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On the 'problem' of children: There are no problem children; there is just children. The fact that some children find it difficult to bed into an education system that we, as a society, have set out for them is not the fault of the children but a fault of the education system. Sometimes you cannot bed a round peg into a square hole no matter how much you wish that to be and to blame the fault on the children is fundamentally society's fault for its lack of imagination.
I am always wary of people who say that 'this is the right way', well, let me tell you you that there is no 'right way' when it comes to children. Like adults, every child is an individual and, in a perfect society, we would cater for all needs. I accept that this is by no means a 'perfect society' and, therefore, society itself is not blameless but for society to then turn around and try to blame the children is both cowardly and shortsighted.
Have I the answer to this; no, I wish I did but I do know that it is not the fault of children because they are children.
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# 165 gduwright
Amen to that.
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#168: wrote -
"Have I the answer to this; no, I wish I did but I do know that it is not the fault of children because they are children"
Some truth in this. - I view the fault as being shared between parent/guardians who fail to give children a good start in life, but I also recoginise the fact that people (children & adults) have a choice ast whether they accept the guidance/leadership they are offered. - Children have a role in their own development.
"some children find it difficult to bed into an education system that we, as a society, have set out for them "
Again, some truth in this. - But if it was ONLY education that was failing, you'd be right. - HOWEVER, these difficult children are having bigger problems than just in school. They are having a full range of social behaviour problems. - Some get into trouble with EVERY aspect of society they encounter, not just school.
While a broken society gets fixed by other policies...we do need a constructive AND practicable approach to getting the good & the difficult kids through schools, without both groups spoiling it for each other...and wrecking (yes) the lives of professionals who just want to teach without being abused.
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168. At 09:02am on 12 Sep 2009, gedguy2
"There are no problem children; there is just children."
Oh gods spare me! There are no bad children, our little princes never misbehave and maltreat teaching staff, therefore lets all forget about it and look at a 'broader' picture!
No its a fault in parental authority, its a fault in child conformity to the basic rules of polite society, its the fault of education system (one aspect, not the 'broad picture' all on is loansome).
Sorry to snap, but I've been hearing this liberal attitude to education for ten years and as a result we're stagnating and being overtaken by England...we need to tackle all aspects of the problem, not excuse the child for its misbehaviour. Or how will they cope in a life of employment?
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Under law the behaviour of minors under the age of 16 is the responsibility of their parents. If we were to use the existing law to fine or take other sanctions against the parents of misbehaving children in this a category you would soon see a radical change in the behaviour of many children (and a lot of them with sore *rses)
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We appear to have wandered off topic again.
Back to politics.
Electoral Calculus, the most accurate and reliable interpreter of electoral trends has some interesting projections in its current view of Scotland.
First of all - good news for Dean. It projects a doubling of Tory seats in Scotland on current figures. That's from one up to two (Edinburgh South it is - though that is showing as a very tight 4 way marginal,but I think the continued collapse of the Libdem vote may benefit the Tories in this seat rather than the SNP who will fight it out with them).
It projects on current figures an 11 seat gain for the SNP with another 14 seats in which the SNP is less than 2% astray (and in several of these particular circumstances make them very obviously wide open to the SNP).
Alex Salmond's ambition for 20 SNP seats looks rather unambitious in light of these projections. It also establishes very firmly I suggest that the al Megrahi affair has enhanced the SNP's position.
Funny how we hear none of this from our "free" press.
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# 170 luibeg
I think that why you are missing the 'thrust' of my argument is due to my inability to condense my 'perspective' of those 'difficult' children in a manner that you may understand fully the point that I am trying to put over. Mea culpa.
If you did understand then you would not use the term 'difficult' to describe some children who are not 'difficult' but different. Even my use of the term 'different' is wrong but I use this to highlight to problem of society and not the children.
First of all, there are children out there who have 'mental' problems (the term 'mental' can be misused and is often abused by people who cannot understand that some brains are wired up, for whatever reason, 'differently' from what we, as a society, expect from all members of our society) and these are not the children that I am discussing at this moment in time. The ones that I believe that we are discussing are those whom we, as a society, see as disruptive. The problem with the education system is that we, for practical reasons, tend to lump all children of the same age into the same educational processes which is not how children's brains develope. We tend to make allowances for genius(?) children and those with 'severe' brain problems, but let's leave those out of this equation too, as we are not discussing them. Because childrens brains develope at different times, and in different ways, some children, who need to have their brains stimulated faster and earlier are being let down by a sysytem that cannot, or more appropriately, will not cater for their needs. These intelligently developing earlier children are sitting in classrooms bored out of their skulls because we, as an society, do not make allowance in our education system for those who develope earlier. Therefore, those 'bored' children become 'disruptive'. This does not just happen in the lower class public comprehensive schools but in private schools also (because of the teacher to pupil ratio in private schools this is less of a problem as those children can be catered for better than in the comprehensive schools) therefore to just blame the parents for this is just purely wrong!
There is another point to this that people tend to forget and I mentioned it in passing in my # 168 where I said: 'I am always wary of people who say that 'this is the right way' '. There is no right way for a society to function because who has the right to say that everybody should act in the way that they decide. Take, for example, a section of society that has been castigated for time immemorial, the 'travellers'. If you have ever had the chance to met and talk to them without preconceived ideas on their way of life you will see that they are family orientated and loyal people (mostly?) to their own with a protective and loving attitude to their children. But, because we look down at them we wrongly see them a scourge to our society that should should be irradicated. Be that by forcing them to 'fit in' with us by settling down or, at the extreme end, what the Nazis did to them by physically killing them.
At the end of the day we have no right to condemn any members of our society because they do not, or will not, fit into what the majority of us decide is the 'norm'. Life is not like that and as a grown up and civilised society we should have the decency to allow people to live their lives in the way that best suits them within the confines of 'basic' moral ideals. To blame the children or even the parents for this is dangerous, in my opinion.
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# 171 deanthetory
Your attitude is the very one that I am worried about. Who gave you the right to decide what is right and wrong. When you get to the stage where you have to bring up your own then I might begin to listen to your opinion on these matters. Until you have gone through the process of seeing the mistakes that you make with your own children and learn from this then I suspect that you are putting your own ideas in place of experience. Remember that experience is something you gain five minutes after you need it.
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# 172 sneckedagain
'and a lot of them with sore *rses'
I would say that some of the repressive laws that we have in this society needs the same 'instruction'.
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I don't routinely follow Dean's policies, but seem to have some common ground here. - Education (what actually happens in classes) has for years been been reflecting the same problem as the homes children come from...collapse of authority & leadership.
I want to give an example of the injustice faced by teachers daily:
In the past, if there was bad behaviour the teacher was empowered and trusted to deal with it effectively. - Situation resolved concurrently, the class moved on and there was rarely any return to the issue. - Closure.
Now most incidents are dealt with by a paper system, which takes mattrs out of teacher control, and the problem drags on interminably, disrupting classwork ove a period of time. - If statements need to be taken, the teacher's authority is disregarded, by awarding EQUAL status to the account of events provided by the child who was involved in the incident.
Now, a qualified & experienced teacher's word counts as no greter weight than the child whom he seeks to control. - Thus a surge in false accusations, and widespread fear of false accusations among teachers.
Teachers now require a supporting witness statement, even for minor class incidents. - Unfortunately we send them into classes alone, and therefore systematically unspupported by witnesses.
They live each day at the mercy of children, hoping one in the class will back them up if there's an incident.
The tip of the iceberg:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/teachers-presumed-guilty-over-accusations-1748507.html
http://www.tes.co.uk/article.aspx?storycode=390820
Children routinely threaten teachers with false accusations. - Those children are among those who need to be separated from the normal single-teacher class, and routed through a more secure path for both parties benefit.
It's not punishment, it's security.
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# 171 deanthetory
Sorry but I missed writing this bit about something else you said:
'Or how will they cope in a life of employment?'
Life is not about employment. This is a fallacy put upon by those at the top of the ladder, be they capitalists or monarchists, to get us to do what they want. I am a realist and understand that I need to work to function in the way that I want to do in a society that I do not support. I work to live; not live to work.
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#173. At 11:15am on 12 Sep 2009, sneckedagain wrote:
We appear to have wandered off topic again.
Back to politics.
Electoral Calculus, the most accurate and reliable interpreter of electoral trends has some interesting projections in its current view of Scotland.
First of all - good news for Dean. It projects a doubling of Tory seats in Scotland on current figures. That's from one up to two (Edinburgh South it is - though that is showing as a very tight 4 way marginal,but I think the continued collapse of the Libdem vote may benefit the Tories in this seat rather than the SNP who will fight it out with them).
It projects on current figures an 11 seat gain for the SNP with another 14 seats in which the SNP is less than 2% astray (and in several of these particular circumstances make them very obviously wide open to the SNP).
Alex Salmond's ambition for 20 SNP seats looks rather unambitious in light of these projections. It also establishes very firmly I suggest that the al Megrahi affair has enhanced the SNP's position.
Funny how we hear none of this from our "free" press.
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Whoa! Now those are some interesting numbers.
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# 177 luibeg
'In the past, if there was bad behaviour the teacher was empowered and trusted to deal with it effectively.'
I was brought up with teachers empowered to use the strap. Did that effect a change in our society; no. There was still robberies, murders, civil unrest, child abuse, disrespect to teachers etc. So your theory does not hold water here. There is a fault in the system not in the children.
'Now most incidents are dealt with by a paper system, which takes mattrs out of teacher control, and the problem drags on interminably, disrupting classwork ove a period of time.'
I'm not disagreeing with you there but again this is pointing to fault in the system. We still haven't got it right.
'Teachers now require a supporting witness statement, even for minor class incidents. - Unfortunately we send them into classes alone, and therefore systematically unspupported by witnesses.'
Again you are pointing to a fault in the system.
'They live each day at the mercy of children, hoping one in the class will back them up if there's an incident.'
Again this is a fualt of the system that could be helped if there were more teachers or TAs to help them. This is not the fault of the children.
'Those children are among those who need to be separated from the normal single-teacher class, and routed through a more secure path for both parties benefit.'
This is potentially a good way of sorting out what is seen as a problem.
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# 173 sneckedagain
'We appear to have wandered off topic again.'
Moi? Surely not.
'Funny how we hear none of this from our "free" press.'
Yes, this is strange, isn't it.
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#179. Question. If the SNP got those 20 seats what would be the overall political effects? If they got 14 seats or in that range what would be the political effect?
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179. At 11:36am on 12 Sep 2009, JRMacClure
Those are interesting numbers, but the tories will get 6 MPs from Scotland minimum:
East Renfrew
Dumfries & Galloway
Dumfrieshire, Clydesdale & Tweedale
Berwickshire, Roxburgh & Selkirk
Edinburgh South
Stirling
Argyl & Bute
Edinbrugh North & Leith
Aberdeen South
Edinburgh South West
West Aberdeenshire & Kincardine
North Perth & Perthshire
Angus
These could all return a Scottish Conservative- we will certainly gain at least 6 of them.
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178. gedguy2 & 174 spot on.
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#161 Barbarian9
Oh can I not? If I'm blaming the UK then I'm blaming the UK's parents as well. I didn't use my post as an offhand remark - I've confidence in what I've said being 100% applicable to the behaviour of young adults in Scotland.
Tell me, do young adults in Japan or Taiwan mimic the young adults in Scotland or England? I can tell you from experience that they don't. A Japanese childhood is poles apart from what you or I would have experienced as children in Scotland. For starters there is a lot more respect for parents and teachers, and fear of them. Respect through fear is better than no respect at all. Japanese and Taiwanese parents both expect the best FOR their children and the best FROM their children. In the UK I suspect a larger portion of parents don't expect a lot from thier child, but they will expect a lot from the government in terms of raising them. Not to mention the almost imperial notion of parents who steadfastly and resolutely believe thier children are always beyond reproach. (i.e. arguing with a police officer about what little timmy says he didn't do)
The point I'm trying to make is that the culture of Scotland (including the parenting culture) needs to set itself apart from the rest of the UK. Kenny Macaskill - for example - has gone to great pains to try and mimic Swedish and Norwegian successes in managing excessive drinking cultures and juvenile criminal activity. He has been met with scorn and sceptiscism at almost every turn by the media - another ingrained aspect of our unwanted cultural relationship to the UK (and I'm sorry - but televison is a huge part of that)
How else can we change the mindset of a country when we're tied so closely to ideals and traditions that oppose those we aspire too? It took England almost a full year to follow Scotland into introducing the smoking ban - what a palaver it was - they dithered over just pubs or just restaurants or both.... It was a pathetic sight.
I'd love to see reams of legislation passed in an effort to pull us away from the kind of country our relationship with the UK has made us - but we're not going to do it by staying still. I applaud Annabel Goldie for keeping tabs on this issue, because as someone quite rightly pointed out - the LibLab coalition squandered countless chances to do just that during their tenure in office.
Watering down the effect the rest of the UK has on Scotland is no easy task. It's already well established that the Scots are fundamentally under-catered for in the media of the UK, yet every time we address this issue - scornful remarks about the inevitable "cat lostup tree" parochial news claptrap invariably make thier way to the fore from - you guessed it - the media.
You can disagree if you like, I don't mind - but consider this.
Nothing influences people more than the culture and tradition of the country in which they reside and changing it for the better will almost always attract fierce opposition & criticism from the status quo. My fear is that it will take untill we are fully independent before my point is proved right.
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#173 sneckedagain
Don't put too much faith in electoralcalculus. His Scottish algorithm is influenced by UK polling and gives past voting patterns a very high weighting. This tends to give Labour and the LibDems a higher retention and increases the slope the Torys and SNP have to climb. However we have to remember that Labour in Scotland still have more members than the SNP and access to vastly more money. The £1 million donation by JK Rowling to Global was more than the SNP raised in the whole year.
You must not put too much faith in polls either. They are weighting their results by past voting patterns also, so again they tend to overstate the support for Labour and the LibDems. I have been trying to pick apart these factors in case there really is a paradigm shift happening and the results are, to say the least, "interesting". They fluctuate quite wildly on tiny shifts in the Labour : SNP ratio so using the electoralcalculus %s my current model gives a 2:28:8:22 seating for C:L:D:S so there is everything to play for if there has been a shift in the old tribal loyalties.
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#183 dean
No, no, yes, yes and no to the rest of them
#182 JRMacClure
At 14 seats the SNP have doubled their representation and would claim bragging rights at Holyrood making turning down the referendum more difficult for the Unionists. 14 MPs wouldnt have any effect in Westminster.
21 seats is a third of all Scottish seats and is getting to the size where it could affect Westminster politics, though, as the "extra" seats will have to come from Labour, Call-me-Dave is unlikely to be too worried. Holyrood would be as 14 but more so.
30 seats is more than half of all the Scottish seats and would be taken as a mandate to open negotiations for independence not only in London but also in New York.
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#187. Hmmm. Interesting. It doesn't look like 30 seats is likely but 20 possible. Of course, with some cataclysmic changes in the political situation coming about as it seems... It might be difficult to predict.
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#186 handclapping
#173 sneckedagain
Don't put too much faith in electoralcalculus. His Scottish algorithm is influenced by UK polling and gives past voting patterns a very high weighting. This tends to give Labour and the LibDems a higher retention and increases the slope the Torys and SNP have to climb. However we have to remember that Labour in Scotland still have more members than the SNP and access to vastly more money. The £1 million donation by JK Rowling to Global was more than the SNP raised in the whole year.
The funding part does not appear to true. I posted this comment on the NR blog not long ago.
It appears that the North British branch of the Labour Party is as screwed as it is down here.
The Audit Commission has just released figures from the Labour Party accounts:
Scottish Labour Party's dire straits are laid bare by the latest submissions to the Electoral Commission, which show donations down almost 90% and overall income reduced from more than £1m to less than £400,000.
The Labour Party also haemorrhaged another 10,000 drop in membership over the year as well.
Roll On 2010: Things can only get better.
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GedGuy2, I guess we all want the same thing; an orderly society, safe schools. Kids who grow up and fulfil potential.
"I was brought up with teachers empowered to use the strap. Did that effect a change in our society; no. There was still robberies, murders, civil unrest, child abuse, disrespect to teachers etc. So your theory does not hold water here. There is a fault in the system not in the children."
I think where I'm diverging, is that I see the "system" as bigger than the school only, and that children arrive at schools having already had 5yrs of failure in their lives...in some (toomany) cases.
My discomfort, I probably share with you, in that a "tough on crime, etc" machismo is not helpful.
Although I welcome Auntie Bella's position, there in actually enough existing powers that just need to be used.
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Sorry, I did not put the LINK in the original, but here it is.
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Here is an interesting historical article that made its way out of USSR after its downfall:
Thatcher told Gorbachev Britain did not want German reunification.
Two months before the fall of the Berlin Wall, Margaret Thatcher told President Gorbachev that neither Britain nor Western Europe wanted the reunification of Germany and made clear that she wanted the Soviet leader to do what he could to stop it.
This one came out of left field!
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# 190 luibeg
'I guess we all want the same thing; an orderly society, safe schools. Kids who grow up and fulfil potential'
No argument from me on that one.
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#189 Roll_On_2010
It all depends on just how much Scottish Labour is an accounting fiction to allow the Scottish Labour badging of the Labour Party's efforts in Scotland. My own view is that Scottish Labour has as much validity as the claim that Johnny Walker is a Dutch product.
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#194 handclapping
No argument from me there!
By the way Johnny Walker is Dutch….. isn’t it :)
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Dean, you do realize that you will have to compete with an SNP vote that has almost doubled in many of those constituencies too ... you lot should really be happy with 2 or 3 under FPTP, and dreaming of 4 or 5. The North-East and Central is pretty solid now, some of those claims carry less weight than predicting a Tory victory in the people's republic of Glasgow and Lanarkshire.
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#195 Roll_On_2010
Total Bols, but true for tax purposes.
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77 out 0f 196 rejected on Nick Robinsons blog!
We Scots are sooo well behaved!
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#188 JRMacClure
I should have observed that the SNP have traditionally undewhelmed at Westminster General Elections. I think the best they have ever done was 11 seats in the days there were 73 ? Scottish seats, so more than that at a 59 seat GE would be groundbreaking stuff, which is why such a result would make life difficult for the Unionists at Holyrood.
You can see this effect in the Scottish polls where the SNP Holyrood results are almost invariably better than their Westminster ones in the same sample of 1000+ people.
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#199. At 3:06pm on 12 Sep 2009, handclapping wrote:
#188 JRMacClure
I should have observed that the SNP have traditionally undewhelmed at Westminster General Elections. I think the best they have ever done was 11 seats in the days there were 73 ? Scottish seats, so more than that at a 59 seat GE would be groundbreaking stuff, which is why such a result would make life difficult for the Unionists at Holyrood.
You can see this effect in the Scottish polls where the SNP Holyrood results are almost invariably better than their Westminster ones in the same sample of 1000+ people.
-------------------
I did notice that and wondered about it. The Westminster ones are quite a bit short of the Holyrood ones.
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Sunday Express Poll!
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185. At 12:40pm on 12 Sep 2009, GAberdeen wrote:
Oh can I not? If I'm blaming the UK then I'm blaming the UK's parents as well. I didn't use my post as an offhand remark - I've confidence in what I've said being 100% applicable to the behaviour of young adults in Scotland.
Tell me, do young adults in Japan or Taiwan mimic the young adults in Scotland or England? I can tell you from experience that they don't. A Japanese childhood is poles apart from what you or I would have experienced as children in Scotland. For starters there is a lot more respect for parents and teachers, and fear of them. Respect through fear is better than no respect at all. Japanese and Taiwanese parents both expect the best FOR their children and the best FROM their children. In the UK I suspect a larger portion of parents don't expect a lot from thier child, but they will expect a lot from the government in terms of raising them. Not to mention the almost imperial notion of parents who steadfastly and resolutely believe thier children are always beyond reproach. (i.e. arguing with a police officer about what little timmy says he didn't do)
The point I'm trying to make is that the culture of Scotland (including the parenting culture) needs to set itself apart from the rest of the UK. Kenny Macaskill - for example - has gone to great pains to try and mimic Swedish and Norwegian successes in managing excessive drinking cultures and juvenile criminal activity. He has been met with scorn and sceptiscism at almost every turn by the media - another ingrained aspect of our unwanted cultural relationship to the UK (and I'm sorry - but televison is a huge part of that)
How else can we change the mindset of a country when we're tied so closely to ideals and traditions that oppose those we aspire too? It took England almost a full year to follow Scotland into introducing the smoking ban - what a palaver it was - they dithered over just pubs or just restaurants or both.... It was a pathetic sight.
I'd love to see reams of legislation passed in an effort to pull us away from the kind of country our relationship with the UK has made us - but we're not going to do it by staying still. I applaud Annabel Goldie for keeping tabs on this issue, because as someone quite rightly pointed out - the LibLab coalition squandered countless chances to do just that during their tenure in office.
Watering down the effect the rest of the UK has on Scotland is no easy task. It's already well established that the Scots are fundamentally under-catered for in the media of the UK, yet every time we address this issue - scornful remarks about the inevitable "cat lostup tree" parochial news claptrap invariably make thier way to the fore from - you guessed it - the media.
You can disagree if you like, I don't mind - but consider this.
Nothing influences people more than the culture and tradition of the country in which they reside and changing it for the better will almost always attract fierce opposition & criticism from the status quo. My fear is that it will take untill we are fully independent before my point is proved right.
----------------
i'm not having a go at efforts to change the drinking culture of scotland, far from it. but like it or not we have a strong culture which is not exactly healthy. its changing, but it will not be done overnight.
but you appear to be trying to shift the blame to england.
people dont need to use the media to see the effects. all they do - in certain areas - is look out of the window at the weekends. and the culture is not restricted to the poorer areas. i've seen lawyers misbehaving and i know someone who got jailed for gbh when he was drunk - that person was a senior professional manager. mr mackaskill himself has been arrested under the influence, thankfully learned from it.
he's using that experience to try and change things. but he doesn't blame england and neither should you.
the culture has to change at all levels. and in a positive way. that means education beginning at school. it also means heavy punishments for drink related crime.
as for your earlier comment regarding eastenders, can you comment on river city, taggart, chewing the fat, trainspotting.... are you suggesting we now censor television and film? the smoking ban went one step too far and that was it affected film, tv and theatre production. do we now want alcohol banned from all entertainment?
there is a fine balance between legislation and "nanny state". i'm not suggesting minimum pricing is a "nanny state" process, but anything like this has to be handled carefully.
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#166 ubinworryinmasheep
Regarding your question about how I feel about the release of Al Megrahi. To be honest I'm conflicted. Initially I was disappointed because much of what I read on BBC blogs indicated that there was a certain amount of "let's stick it to the Americans" attitude. Which is pretty common these days. Maybe we deserve that, but I'm thinking if it was my daughter or son on the plane I wouldn't want the guilty party to go free under any circumstances. Since the majority of the people on the plane were Americans it's not wrong for me to empathize with them, the same way I did for those lost in 9/11 or 7/7 or for the Iraqi girl who was raped and killed along with her family by a group of American soldiers. (note the main perpetrator of that crime was sentenced to life in prison. Let's see if life means life and you don't have to remind me of Lt. Callie).
However as a Christian I am fully aware of those things which make us divine. Mercy, forgiveness, love as opposed to hate, turning the other cheek, etc. As I mentioned above these are divine traits which go against my human nature (or animal nature if you will). I ain't divine yet but I'm working on it. There are other similar areas which cause me conflict like abortion, death penalty and war in general. At what point do you justify the unthinkable and take the life of another person. I believe there are justifiable reasons but I'm not quite sure how to make the list out.
As for the overall effect of the release mostly it won't amount to much. The people affected will never forget. Those who weren't will just move on much like 9/11. It's just a vague memory now for most people and will get fuzzier as time rolls on. Can you say Korea and Vietnam. Unfortunately we like others think mostly in terms of ourselves.
As for knowing about Scotland. Heck yea man. My ancestors on both sides were Scotch/Irish as is the case in much of the South. I do love the way you people speak. A funny story here. A friend of my stepfather imported a border collie from Scotland. Along with him came verbal commands he had been trained to respond to. The first couple of days he couldn't get the dog to do anything and was about to send him back. Finally when they listened to a sound tape of the trainer everyone realized that even tho the new owner was using the right words in English the way they were pronounced was an entirely different language for the dog. Use of the whistle did work however.
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It always makes me smile to read the postings of Scottish Conservatives. It's the triumph of hope over experience. It doesn't really matter if the predictions of those who view the world through blue tinted spectacles come true or not, even on their best forecasts the Tories would go to Westminster with just 6 seats in Scotland, slightly over 10% of the total of seats and perhaps 20% of the popular vote. That's hardly a standing ovation for Conservative policies - and it's the Conservative's best case scenario in Scotland.
What Conservatives choose to ignore is that in the eyes of the majority of Scots, the Conservative government in Westminister will be seen to lack the legitimacy to make decisions which affect Scotland. Even worse for them, it will be loathed passionately by a very large section of the Scottish population. Good will is going to be in very short supply. And this before Cameron starts to make budget cuts or to tinker with the constitution in Tory-friendly ways.
The slight recovery that the Scottish Conservatives have been enjoying is like the last burst of energy from a man who is lost in the desert, but who sees the mirage of water in the distance and tries to reach it before he dies of thirst. The Scottish Conservative mirage is the revival of the party's fortunes in England. It will not be the salvation of the Scottish Conservatives, it will be the end of them.
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#203 (note the main perpetrator of that crime was sentenced to life in prison. Let's see if life means life and you don't have to remind me of Lt. Callie).
----------------------------------
As a fellow American, and in a perfectly friendly way but I just am interested, have you heard of the concept of compassionate release? Are you aware it is part of Scottish law?
I always wonder how much people know about these things. I don't mean to offend.
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By the by, I just realized tomorrow is the anniversary of the Earl of Mar managing to lose the Battle of Sherrifmuir in spite of having a superior force. Why do I know these things? =)
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UN urged to investigate Lockerbie
"The obvious thing to do would be to ask the security council of the UN to hold an inquiry, but in realistic terms that's not going to happen, because the UK and US have vetoes and don't want it."
I wonder why.
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Cracks appear in unity over Calman reforms
"Tavish Scott said he believed that Labour and the Conservatives were playing into the hands of the Nationalists by allowing a policy vacuum to develop over the report into Scotland’s constitutional future."
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Comment 208. At 5:31pm on 12 Sep 2009, cynicalHighlander wrote:
"Tavish Scott said he believed that Labour and the Conservatives were playing into the hands of the Nationalists by allowing a policy vacuum to develop over the report into Scotland’s constitutional future."
Good to see Tavish catching up with Newsnet Scotland - this article from last month's edition.
Labour have been accused of backtracking on their backing for the Calman Commission after refusing to accept a call for key proposals on the transfer of powers to be implemented immediately.
The Calman Commission was set up at the behest of Labour and other Unionist parties at Holyrood and was billed as the way forward for devolution. The commission refused to consider independence and as a result was not officially backed by the Scottish Government.
However the SNP have supported some of the key proposals put forward by Calman and along with other parties have called for their implementation as soon as possible.
Labour though have decided not to accede to the calls for a quick transfer of the powers and have insisted that the commissions findings must be looked at as a whole. This appears to be at odds with Sir Kenneth Calman’s own view which was:
"I think there are lots of bits, as I mentioned, which I think can be implemented quickly and easily without too much fuss."
Critics of the Commission, set up at a cost of over £613,000, say that it was cobbled together in order to thwart the SNP’s National Conversation and that Labour’s delaying tactics have demonstrated both the lack of agreement between Holyrood’s Unionist parties and a lack of real desire on the part of Labour to see any powers returned from Westminster.
Look out tomorrow for the result of the Newsnet Scotland poll on the Megrahi decision - 450 individual respondents.
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rE 174
There is another often ignored angle to this. Society expects children to respect adults and society. However society and adults seldom respect children.
We tell them to work hard at school, raise the bar for success higher and higher, while constantly moaning that the standards are dropping. My kids are going through the exam process and I know that they are no easier than when I went through them.
In years gone by society respected youth and their achievements, we gave them their place.
the breakdown is a two way process, for things to change we must value and respect our young people, not constantly berate them.
Teachers complain about kids but look at some of the people we let be teachers. What example do they set? Do they dress like teacher? Do they behave like teachers? Some do but many don't.
We send mixed messages to the youth of today, we have built a society that they must adapt to. We cannot blame our failures on them.
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209. Online_Ed
And some good news in the Sunday Express tomorrow.
SNP - 25 MPs
Labour - 21 MPs
Lib Dems - 9 MPs
Tory - 4 MPs (incl Murphy's scalp)
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204. At 4:08pm on 12 Sep 2009, InfrequentAllele
Dont rain on my parade! Lol
But seriously:
Cameron will most likely move to devolve further fiscal powers to Holyrood (to buy loyalty and credability in Scotlan) before he engages in public spending cuts etc...
Besides, devolution means that Scotland will be sheltered from Conservative Cameronite rule (England and Wales on the other hand....) so you dont need to worry much.
Besides, we arent that bad! I dont bathe in baths of virgin blood like Countess Elizabeth Bathory, nor does the vast vast majority of the party up here (I cant vouche for David Mundel on the other hand hehe)
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Manure, I hope that is an acceptable word, but that is what Calman is, a great big steaming pile of manure! A nasty niff that lingers on, hence Tavish's keeness to kick it into the long grass!
Calman has no benefit to Scots other than to unionist politicians and buying them time to run Scotland furhter in to the futile unionist hole.
You bake a cake, you have expectation of how it will look and taste. Please see para 1 above.
Scots deserve better than the Calman offer from unionist parties.
In this respect I include Mr Cameron. Cameron could not give fig for Scotland, never has, never will do. Beware of those who say otherwise, I remenber Mr Michael Forsyth, a more right wing, unsavory and anti-Scottish individual you will not meet. Ever!
Scottish tories are identical to Scottish labour, no reason to exist, their time has come and gone, what purpose do they serve? They like labour do not believe in their country.
Where else in the world could you go to the electorate with this message? Baffles me!
D Mcn
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deanthetory re 212
Once people in Scotland realise that Cameron is bringing back Forsyth by the back door, a la Mandelson, you may be lucky and retain the one seat you have.
Another six to nine months of auntie Bella showing her true colors as a toxic tory and you will be lucky to keep the one.
Six seats, dream on.
handclapping re 186
It is generally thought that the SNP and Labour are about equal in the number of members in Scotland, though Labour have stopped giving out numbers.
There is however a vast difference in the quality and commitment of the SNP members compared to any other party. Just watch the numbers in Glasgow when we finally have a contest.
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Donald_McNairn re213
There was a good reply in the Scotsman on Calmans failure to include independence in their remit.
He said have this commission without including independence was like a surgeon investigating improving the quality of life of conjoined twins - but without even considering separation.
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# 210 northhighlander
There is a lot of truth in some of your post.
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211 Cynicalhighlander.
Those are exciting figures. 30 seats is the magic number because as far as I'm concerned that is a majority and gives the SNP the right to seek terms for Independence. To go from 25 shown in the poll to 30 probably only requires a very small number of exrta votes.
This also reminds me of Labour bring in proportional representation for Holyrood just so they could ensure, although they can't be certain, that the SNP don't get a majority in Holyrood.
First past the post for Westminister must now terrify the Unionists. I wonder if they will consider PR for the next GE?
Freeedom
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while the tories wont get more than about 4 seats, michael forsyth is not as much of a deterrent as you think.
the tories have been out of power for over ten years, and there are a whole new bunch of voters, some in their late 20s, who might consider a tory vote.
labour messed up in the 70s, but they still returned to power years later, as they no doubt will again in the future.
i expect about 20 seats for the snp, if not more. but we need to be cautious. everyone has to work for every vote. some sitting mp's are popular with their local voters, however they feel about the party in general. if the snp were (hypothetically) unpopular alex would still win his seat.
much depends on the approach. will alex go for the full independence argument, or go for a more devolved argument? he might be better going for broke to get an idea of the feeling. after all, he has nothing to lose. better to try it out with the general election first?
old fashioned doorstep canvassing is needed. every vote gained means the opposition need two to balance it out.
back to the tories. they simply will not win a lot of seats. the only way that might happen is if a westminister tory government treats scotland properly, and assuming that independence hasnt happened, they might gain more at the following election.
on a slight aside, since the conference season is about to take off, what's the odds on a coup d'etat at the labour one?
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217. hadrianswall
I'll wait for our resident "gurus" analysis before shouting from the rooftops but the message is starting to get through to the doubters at last.
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#202 Barbarian9
I was tempted to complain about your post - as I have in no way attacked England or English culture in any of my posts. I've refered to the joint culture of the UK which lays the blame squarely at our feet as well as the other constituent members of the UK.
It might not have been your intention, but I find it incredulous and offensive that you'd chose to decry my contribution as little more than racist sentiment - I can only hope you decide for yourself that I am indeed neither racist nor ignorant.
Your comment about televison again - insinuating that I chose an English programme to veil an attack I assume? Not so. Remember Lynne Moncreif from Big Brother 2? She was a fellow Aberdonian and made a complete fool of herself by getting bladdered everynight and shooting her mouth off at people she didn't like or agree with. Not hard to identify her Buckie twang either when she's 3 sheets to the wind. This is what the nation recognises in themsleves when you put rubbish on the televison.
Many people say they watch shows like Jeremy Kyle and Shameless because it show's the grittier side of the United Kingdom. It doesn't. It shows the parts of the United kingdom that are (in the famous words of my favourite Yorkshireman) peurile and ignorant. The parts people look down thier noses at. Amidst all this disgusting behaviour, foul language and villany, you'd expect people to feel ashamed of it.
THEY AREN'T
They wear it like a badge of pride. How many young "neds" or "chavs" have you seen causing grief in a city shopping centre, collecting asbos like pokemon? They have no aspirations of university or college or an internship with a multinational - all they care about is looking cool in front of thier mates - living up to a sylised existence perpetrated by a media that tells them it's ok to be the way they are.
How many times have you heard a lizzy bardsley scream her face off at a traffic warden or a public servant because they didn't see eye to eye on something? The culture of the UK has made it OK to live like this, maybe not in a legal sense, but certainly in a social subculture sense it has. Can you tell me what happens when a subculture becomes mainstream? When people like Jade Goody can command the respect of thousands? I think you already know the answer.
Finally - on a solution to the ills facing society? I have no answers and I don't advocate censorship, so I'm really of no use to anyone on that front. I simply feel that any efforts made in Scotland to change the behavioural culture of our youth will always be resisted by the media of the UK, who like everything else - oppose change and are irrationally fearful of it.
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On the recent report on al-Megrahi's health.
As some of you mentioned, it would cynically take the death of al-Megrahi to finally stop the witch hunt perpetrated by the partisan elements of Holyrood.
Can I therefore put forward the question as to what people think will happen when he does die? Will Mackaskill be vindicated? Will the Tories apologise? (will they Dean?) Will Tavish remember his new found objectivity and non-partisan politicking and stay silent? Will the Grey man, the dour wee neep that he is offer his opinion on how he hoped al-Megrahi suffered at the end?
I'm curious to know what people think, from all political (or independent) persuasions.
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#219 cynical
The details are now out on politicalbetting. I don't know if or how MORI weight but 18:27:14:33 gives 3:21:7:28 on my spreadsheet and if the SNP have the resources to put extra effort into Cumbernauld and Paisley North then that's the magic 30.
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Look lets be cynical for a second: worst case scenario:
Scottish tories get 2 MPs,
SNP hold 6, gain 2
LibDems manage to hold 11 (out of their 12)
The big winner from the split anti-labour vote: New Labour....
ahhhhhHHHHHHH, I'm holding for an SNP victory in Glasgow North-East to stuff failed labour. Come on you NATS!
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221. GAberdeen
Being suspicious before his trial that this was a political stitch up and using the Scottish judicial system to give the verdict credibility we will have to reflect that we are possibly complicit in a man dying a convicted criminal and his loss of freedom for his last ten years on this earth. The clock can't be turned back but we as a nation owe it to him and his surviving family to give our support for AN INDEPENDENT inquiry into this affair, no matter who we might "offend" by taking that action.
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210 - couldn't agree more!
We should respect and celebrate the achievements (of our young (and not so young) folks.
Theh have worked their butts off for four years or more.
Next thing, some journo, with dubious qualifications starts to criticise the youth of today and their exam achievements, give me a break!
Question for unionits - why is the Scottish education system, separate from that of England?
D McN
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Fraud inquiry into peer’s expenses
At last they have stopped watching the CCTV pictures which only solve 1% of crime and target the persistent offenders.
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218. At 9:29pm on 12 Sep 2009, barbarian9
Forsyth certainly puts the jitters up me!
214. At 8:10pm on 12 Sep 2009, dubbieside
He wont bring back Forsyth, that would be the maximum level of idiotic blithering idiocy I could ever imagine from any self distructive MP!
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Further to my #222
What does Alex do now? The SNP have very limited resources so where does he put them?
Forget Westminster and go all out for the referendum? pro Yes and independence is virtually certain: con could be blocked in Holyrood so have to wait for 2011 and a "majority" at Holyrood.
Put the effort into 14 at Westminster ie Aberdeen North etc so as to give leverage at Holyrood?
Put the effort into the 20+ at Westminster ie Livingston to add leverage at Westminster to the extra leverage at Holyrood?
Go for Cumbernauld and Paisley North to make the 30 and get the independence ball rolling before Call-me-Dave has got his feet under the table?
It will be interesting to watch. I take Alex for a gambler and he'd put the money and people into Cumernauld but they've no real money and at a general election where are they going to get the extra people? They'll all be home fighting their local seat.
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220. At 9:38pm on 12 Sep 2009, GAberdeen wrote:
apologies if i misinterpreted your original post. i read (misread) it as some sort of blame being attached to the rest of the uk as to scotland's problems. i think i jumped the gun a bit and thought it was another "it's not our fault" argument, which i find negative and is used a little bit too much. so please dont take offence, its wasnt meant in that manner.
i certainly agree that some of the tripe (for want of a stronger word) on tv is part of the problem. how anyone can watch jeremy jyle or big brother beats me! x-factor falls into the same category but not come dancing or the ice skating stuff, since the participants really do have to work at those.
my own view on trying to sort out the problems is the old short sharp shock treatment. it will never stop everything but it might help. give young offenders a taste of prison - without the tvs etc.
on your 221:
nobody should use his death for political point scoring, especially alex salmond. don't drop to the gutter level of the opposition. let labour make fools of themselves. a dignified silence speaks volumes. time to move on.
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222. At 9:43pm on 12 Sep 2009, handclapping wrote:
#219 cynical
The details are now out on politicalbetting. I don't know if or how MORI weight but 18:27:14:33 gives 3:21:7:28
looks like a set of political vital statistics.
assume the first number is the size of the brain, followed by the usual bust, waist, hips and see if you can identify your favourite politician :)
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#223 dean
I'm sure if you announced that you were making a special effort in East Renfrew the SNP would back off from taking on the might of the Tory party in Scotland! Would that help?
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223. deanthetory
"
ahhhhhHHHHHHH, I'm holding for an SNP victory in Glasgow North-East to stuff failed labour. Come on you NATS!"
Well dean you know what to do there and am sure a recipricol arrangement re a certain Renfrewshire seat.....
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Jay-r-rah (that's the way we say it)
Compassionate release? It sounds good for sure but who decides and what is the criteria. The trouble I have with the death penalty here in the US centers around the question. Does everybody get the same shake. I really don't think so. Is is intentional?.....I really don't think so either but it is what it is. If the Scottish government decides to release whoever it's their business. However, I do not feel compelled to agree with it even if no Americans were involved. It seems a lot of people in the world don't agree much with what the US does and that goes for many Americans too. I just wish the heck everybody could get along. That doesn't mean everyone has to have the same opinions, customs, religion, political belief etc., etc. Politics is one of those things Charlie Brown refuses to discuss and who can blame him, just look at our congress. Reminds me of children quarreling over who gets what toy in the nursery. Wish the consequences were the same. That's sad isn't it. I've come to realize by visiting sites like this that "We are not alone". Don't know if that's comforting or not.
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231. handclapping
Have you been reading my script!LOL
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231. At 10:35pm on 12 Sep 2009, handclapping
LOL
We can give you SNP boys a run for your money ;)
Doesn't mean we will win, though East Ren is a straight Tory-Labour fight (and well will triumph).
I wouldnt mind you lot backing off of the Tayside and leaving that to us (that would help teehe).
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#230 baba
LOL now if it was 3:27:29:28 I would have gone for Prezza or 40:27;29:28 Shrek himself but what politician is x:x:7:x? A MP with a waist? What are expenses for?
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#229 Barbarian9
No problem at all - I too feel that the "It's not our fault" approach to political debate leaves a nasty taste in the mouth.
I agree with your sentiment on prisons or old fashioned "borstal" for wayward teens for whom the current "ticking off" doesn't work - but the sad fact is that liberalism protects criminals just as much as the rest of us these days.
Children and teenagers are as aware of thier rights as any other citizen and rightly so. What I wouldn't mind seeing is a form of enforced labour. Military conscription exempted, I think we should attempt to build new highways and bywards, trainlines and tramlines from the sweat and tears of criminals who have wronged society.
Maybe for some achieving something through genuine endeavour is all they need to break the cycle of crime and punishment.
We can but dream.
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222. handclapping
You Gov have a different take.
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230. barbarian9
"18:27:14:33 gives 3:21:7:28"
One divides the first No by 6, the second No one divides by 9 and multiplies by 7, the third No one divides by 2, the fourth No one takes away one from the other gives us your age, simple when one knows how.
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#233. At 10:44pm on 12 Sep 2009, gduwright wrote:
"Jay-r-rah (that's the way we say it)"
I have no idea who "we" is or what that means. Sounds a bit rude? *shrug* It's nothing we say in Oregon.
"Compassionate release? It sounds good for sure but who decides and what is the criteria."
That ha been discussed a lot but somehow it doesn't seem to get through to people in this country. I've noticed that. If you really want to know the Minister of Justice of Scotland decides after receiving a recommendation from doctors and the prison officials stating that the prisoner has only a short time to live and is no danger to society.
Should they have denied it to al-Megrahhi when it had never been denied to another dying prisoner?
Well, that was Mr. MacAskill's decision as Justice Minister and I respect a politician who'll stand up and say: It was my decision and I'll live with it.
Especially in comparison to the lynch-mob-style justice we tend to serve up in this country.
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#238. At 10:53pm on 12 Sep 2009, cynicalHighlander wrote:
222. handclapping
You Gov have a different take.
Which take is likely to be more accurate? Yougov or electoralcalculus? Any thoughts?
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Even better poll for SNP coming out tomorrow.
Dean
You do yourself a disservice much of the time by wishful thinking but your more recent post is a little more realistic.
I will be hugely surprised however if the Libdems don't take a huge hit. They bear no relationship to the party many people thought theyere and they are found out. They will live toegret their refusal to join a coaltion with the SNP and they are tied into the Labour rereat
All polls are showing a small increase in the Tory vote, a big drop in a the Labour vote, a biger drop in the LibDem vote and substantial and sustained increase in the SNP vote. On present figures the Tories might gain 2 seats,but unless they improve significantly they will probably only sneak one extra.
You quote Argyll and Bute on your wish list.
On what basis?
At the Euro election the Tories came in a poor third behind the LibDems whose collapsed vote saw the SNP pull well ahead.
The SNP got more than three votes for every two Tory votes in Argyll and Bute and your uninspiring candidate would have to first beat a significantly underwhelming LibDem MP who nonetheless appears to be holding onto second place (a long way behind the SNP).
In my many years in Argyll and Bute I have never seen the SNP faced by three such poor candidates. Labour will do well to get 2000 votes.
I think the steam is running out of the union.
Have you had a look at the Electoral Calculus figures?
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#238 cynical
There could be misreporting. Holyrood Constituency and Regional the same is almost impossible. I think it's wait for the full results from Ipsos-MORI time and see the size and weightings before any further "analysis". As Peter Snow always said about the Swingometer 'Just a bit of fun.'
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#239 cynical
So my thoughts work faster than my words. Now I'm off to my bed in a dander. 8-)
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#239. At 11:23pm on 12 Sep 2009, cynicalHighlander wrote:
No, no. You have it wrong. That's the number of the secret phone line that Alex Salmond used when he was plotting with his good friend Gordon Brown. ;)
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242. At 00:29am on 13 Sep 2009, sneckedagain
"Have you had a look at the Electoral Calculus figures?"
Those figures are out of date. There are none of the August 209 YouGovs, nor the others from the last month, all of them has had us on 19/20%, above the 17% currently quoted and used in their extrapolations.
"You quote Argyll and Bute on your wish list.
On what basis?"
At Holyrood, SNP have been building up their vote, hence Mather’s win here was not such a big surprise.
At Westminster on the other hand the SNP vote has fallen in both 2001 and 2005, while Tory vote has risen in both elections.
Also consider that this is slightly different from the Scottish Parliament seat .
The slight difference is probably crucial since this seat, unlike the SP seat now includes Helensburgh which was traditionally Conservative but where the LDs are now string and where I think the SNP are rather weak compared to the Argyllshire base. I dont see the SNP coming from 4th place and 15% of the vote to take this seat now.
Tory gain, but supermarginal- hwever this is a three way marginal and predictions are susceptable because of this.
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Election 2010 prediction: Argyl & Bute (Westminster boundaries remember):
Conservative 11974.433 (27.7% / +4.2)
Liberal Democrat 11196.311 (25.9% / -10.6)
SNP 10720.796 (24.8% / +9.3)
Labour 8602.571 (19.9% / -2.5)
Majority: 778 – Conservative Gain(Super marginal)
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242. At 00:29am on 13 Sep 2009, sneckedagain
"You do yourself a disservice much of the time by wishful thinking but your more recent post is a little more realistic."
On the light of those postings I doubt that my predictions are all that wishfull. Argyl and Bute is more likely a tory than SNP gain in westminster, the wishful thinking is yours perhaps?
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Jay-r-rah. I wander why your here. Are you from Scottish ancestors or are you just trying to pick a fight. Do you know anything about what the Scottish people want or are you here to keep the thread going? You are slick but you don't know nothing when it comes to the end game. I've seen you mess with the knaves on this blog but what you say ain't nothing to me. You get upset with Jay-r-rah or so you say. That ain't nothing. All of this is meaningless, I'm out of here.
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#249. I'm not a Scot. Like most Americans I'm a mutt. I don't pretend that if a few of my ancestors lived in Scotland a few hundred years ago that it makes me a Scot any more than other ancestors make me Irish or French or English or Welsh or German.
And it says a lot that you'd refer to the other posters here as "knaves".
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#247. At 02:06am on 13 Sep 2009, deanthetory wrote:
Election 2010 prediction: Argyl & Bute (Westminster boundaries remember):
Conservative 11974.433 (27.7% / +4.2)
Liberal Democrat 11196.311 (25.9% / -10.6)
SNP 10720.796 (24.8% / +9.3)
Labour 8602.571 (19.9% / -2.5)
Majority: 778 – Conservative Gain(Super marginal)
Prediction from where, Dean?
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Meanwhile back in the real world,
http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/127029/Poll-puts-Labour-ministers-at-risk
Sunday Express, ipsos-mori poll (c1000 adults) post Megrahi shows SNP 7 points ahead of Labour at Holyrood, and 3 at Westminster. Among those ‘certain to vote’ in both elections SNP are 13 and 6 points ahead.
The conservative estimates, based on raw figures – not considering likelihood of voting – show the SNP returning with 25 Westminster seats, with Browne, Darling and Murphy (Tory) gone! At Holyrood the result would be SNP 55 MSPs to Labour’s 35. Naturally Gordon’s sock puppet Mr. Murphy has supplied some extra nice vitriol to accompany this dreadful story for his party!
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Dean - that prediction in Argyle is just wildly off, the Labour vote there will collapse, not edge down just enough to allow the Tories to sneak through!
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Can someone explain the almost crazed hatred of all the newspapers for the SNP to me? I find it really bizarre. You'd think there would be ONE that was pro-SNP. I've seen the newspaper sales figures for Scotland, by the way. They can't even think it's getting them readers with figures that bad.
There are a handful of columnists who occasionally do a fairly balanced piece. But most of them are almost irrational in their anti-SNP rhetoric. Because they're owned outside of Scotland perhaps?
I can kind of understand the BBC even though I don't approve. After all it does admit to being specifically British. You can't really expect balance probably.
But I read the newspapers and just shake my head. I've never seen coverage so totally unbalanced toward any political party across the board.
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Interesting article in The Sunday Herald. I wonder if the Gray man will have anything to say on this issue?
MOD poised to scrap Scots jobs... and start a political war.
Gordon Brown's deteriorating relationship with Britain’s military chiefs will come under fire again this week when the defence minister, Quentin Davies, is expected to announce that Europe,s largest missile testing range, in Benbecula, will be downgraded.
New UAV technology will now be tested in the much smaller site at Aberporth in Wales - Benbecula has a "segregated airspace" zone of 8000 square miles, the largest in Europe
With the US defence department estimating that the global market in UAVs will be worth $55 billion by 2020, Defence consultant Donald Booth said Davies's announcement will be seen as "flying in the face of everything coming out of the Pentagon".
As well as leaving the Prime Minister open to further criticism that he is out of touch on defence issues, the government's decision will be seen as an own goal for Scottish nationalists.
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Can someone explain the almost crazy act of selfishness from thousands of Americans, as they take to the street to protest against health-care and helping 42 million Americans achieve some type of medical care.
Jeez! they are actually saying that universal health care in America is to near to socialism! Wow! does the fellowship of amphibions believe that 42 million Americans are not worthy.
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249 Double negatives a plenty!Makes a nonsense of the nonsense you wrote.
JR , I take it you got at RT TV then?
Salmond and Brown " best buddies " Sheesh!
I have no idea why the press in Scotland have pressed the self destruct button , a death wish perhaps?
Once we had a Herald of Integrity , now we have a Labour rag filled with lies , spin and obfuscations.
I believe that once upon a time the Scotsman was a publication to be reckoned with , now it is a worthless, spiteful comic.
Happily circulation figures reflect their demise.
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The pantomime season is almost upon us, with the TUC up this week and the NuLabour conference at Brighton at the end of the month and the Tories shortly after. Here is one article that starts these events off with a bang!
Brown to claim recession over as union boss warns of poll disaster.
PM will deliver an upbeat assessment of the economy at the TUC conference this week - but Unite's joint leader Derek Simpson predicts 'slaughter' unless he axes Mandelson and Miliband.
In his most outspoken interview yet Derek Simpson, the joint general secretary of Unite, escalated the threat of a Labour civil war by describing the Secretary of State for Business and Foreign Secretary as "thick" and "Tories".
Well I never, Meddlesome and Millipede Thick and Tories, I would never have guessed it.
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#256 derekbarker
Can someone explain the almost crazy act of selfishness from thousands of Americans, as they take to the street to protest against health-care and helping 42 million Americans achieve some type of medical care.
Jeez! they are actually saying that universal health care in America is to near to socialism! Wow! does the fellowship of amphibions believe that 42 million Americans are not worthy.
Good morning Derek how are you and the family?
I agree, It really beggars belief how the richest country in the world holds its less well of in such contempt. Perhaps these ethics were absent when the country was young and scrabbling about looking for it's definition of the American Dream.
But I feel sure that Obama will win in the end, surely the sensible American citizens outnumber the extremists of the right.
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Newsnet Scotland recently conducted it's own online poll on the release of Al Megrahi.
The poll was open to visitors to Brian Taylor’s BBC blog, subscribers to Newsnet Scotland and to online readers of The Scotsman and Daily Record/Sunday Mail comments.
Question:
The man convicted of the Lockerbie bombing has terminal cancer and is estimated to have just three months to live. Under Scots law, the Justice Minister Kenny MacAskill showed mercy to Abdelbaset Ali Mohmed Al Megrahi and granted his release on compassionate grounds.
Was this the correct decision?
There were 450 individual respondents
Result:
Yes – 375 (83%)
No – 75 (17%)
This result is not meant to be a reflection of actual public opinion and is almost certainly skewed. It does though serve as a reminder that polls represent only the views of those people asked and that many factors may influence those views.
Interestingly though, when the 89 respondents from the Daily Record/Sunday Mail site were analysed on their own they showed a result of 53% for the release and 47% against, which is probably a more accurate reflection of actual public feeling.
Thanks to everyone who took the time to register their view - especially the person from Wales who voted over 100 times - unfortunately though his/her vote counted only once.
Incidently, one yes vote and one no vote could be registered from the same PC, so a husband and wife who disagreed could have both votes counted. Unfortunately if both voted yes (or no) from the same PC then it counted only once.
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Down at The Herald Alf Young has penned a piece that uses the Bausch and Lomb closure to attack the SNP. In my opinion the piece is overly partisan and poorly written.
Read it and you would be forgiven for thinking that Iain Gray had written it himself.
Read It Here
I also learn that The Herald are currently looking for both a deputy editor and an assistant editor. Didn't Alf Young hold one of these positions?
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#256 Derekbarker
Indeed, they appear to be opposed to change and are irrationally fearful of it.
Not unlike the architects of Calman one might deduce ;)
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Jim Murphy is in customary 'Big Brother knows best' mode in this morning's press, regurgitating the "handled very badly" mantra re Megrahi while doing a 'Brown' in evading any stance on the release itself.
This, of course, is not least because Labour are up to their necks in murky deals over Megrahi, the release itself undoubtedly suits their scheming objectives.
While supporting the release would only damage US relations, as well as nullifying its use as a 'political weapon' against the SNP, to condemn it might upset the Libyans, as well as wholly exacerbating their own stinking hypocrisy over the issue, which is already openly exposed.
So they have absolutely no moral fibre on the issue, choosing instead to manipulate it through selective sound-bites for party political advantage.
Exactly the same hollow tactic is displayed over Diageo - posturing against the Scottish Government when everything humanly possible was done, with Labour only ready to jump up and claim the credit if anything constructive had emerged from these 'united' efforts.
The bluster about 'picking up the pieces' of Scotland's 'damaged' reputation is a major, rotten plank of this shoddy politicking - as underlined by the fact that the only 'damage' evidenced is from the self-serving machinations of Labour and the other unionist parties.
If Murphy is intent on being of any use other than as a political mouthpiece for his own narrow cause, he could start by assisting in 'picking up the pieces' of the Diageo fallout, which he should recognise as an issue of far greater urgency to Scotland than the Megrahi affair, and not one that he and his party can afford to use for petty points-scoring.
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#263 "If Murphy is intent on being of any use other than as a political mouthpiece for his own narrow cause, he could start by assisting in 'picking up the pieces' of the Diageo fallout, which he should recognise as an issue of far greater urgency to Scotland than the Megrahi affair, and not one that he and his party can afford to use for petty points-scoring."
Ah but isn't petty points-scoring Mr Murphy's sole raison d'etre?
After all he hasn't actually done anything else; he has kept a notably low profile (like his master) when difficult decisions have been taken, and far from acting as a go-between linking the Scottish and Westminster governments as his official job description suggests he should, he is actually the link to the opposition - remember that on his appointment he stated he was looking forward to working with Mr Grey, and unless something utterly weird happened while I was sound asleep last night, Mr Grey is not and never has been the FM
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Comment 263:
The 'Scotland's 'damaged' reputation' phrase has already been picked up by the BBC who now preface questions with it when interviewing SNP politicians.
i.e. How are we do repair Scotland's 'damaged' reputation ....
It is now been presented as fact when the evidence suggests that far from damaging Scotland's reputation around the globe it has actually anhanced it.
The evidence to support the claim seems to consist of one very suspect website and a handfull of critical statements from some Americans with links to either the victims families or the investigation itself.
If any damage has been done then it was done when Megrahi was found guilty by three Scottish judges. The more one reads of that case the more begins to doubt the validity of the decision - moreover, the new evidence that is gradually seeping into the public domain simply serves the compound the doubt.
Jim Murphy's profile and reputation have not been enhanced by this event - his Macavity style disappearance was very noticeable.
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Absolutely; far from "damaging" Scotland's reputation, the affair has (a) alerted world opinion to the fact that Scotland does have a government of its own, and (b) enhanced its reputation - cf a certain Mr Mandela to name but one. The "damage" has been done not to Scotland, but (a) to a duplicitous Westminster Government, (b) to a silently squirming Mr Brown, and (c) to the Labour Party and all the other critics who have been throwing tantrums in front of an empty auditorium.
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That Brown, Gray and Murphy are committed only to Labour party interests, and to the systemmatic suppression of Scotland's political stature and aspirations, should now be becoming blindingly obvious to all.
Not one of these placemen has either the outlook or ability to rise above narrow party politics and act in the national interest, and all three, together and individually, are symptomatic of Labour's terminal malaise and free-fall decline.
We all recognise the scourge of the toxic Tories, and should not rely on their return to accentuate the fact that Westminster government has continually failed Scotland.
However, I do look forward to Murphy losing his seat, and the advent of a Secretary of State who is clearly seen for the colonial Governor he is, as opposed to strutting around pretending to be the people's messiah.
As for Gray, it might be even more interesing to see how he stands up without his strings being pulled from Number 10!
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Dean the tory
I'm afraid it is you that is seriously out of date on figures. The Euro results for the Argyll and Bute region (exactly the same boundries as Argyll and Bute Westminster seat) put the SNP on 30%, the LibDems on 20% and the Tories on 19%. The SNP poll figures have improved further since that result (evidenced today's Ipsos-Mori).
It was thought by many that the Tories might slip into second place ahead of the melted LibDem vote but this impression has receded somewhat as the first Tory candidate stood down and the present candidate, who is a Tory councillor from Helensburgh, hasn't attended a council meeting for months and neither have most of his colleagues. I am told he is spending a lot of his time driving Jamie McGrigor MP about for some unexplained reason. Argyll and Bute Tories are not a particularly happy ship at the moment.
Your impression of the Helensburgh area is not entirely accurate either. It was part of the West Dunbarton seat till recently and as such was archetypal West of Scotland political territory with a pronounced Tory /Labour divide as its most obvious feature. Helensburgh provided a a significant increase in the Labour vote in Argyll and Bute. The LibDem vote in Helensburgh is to an extent soft Tory and anti Labour in nature and is of a transient tactical variety. You are right in your assumption that it is unstable but as much of it is migrating to SNP as it is to Tory.
The collapsed Labour vote may largely stay at home in Argyll and Bute but that part of it which votes is extremely unlikely to vote Tory,
You have to factor in that the SNP vote is at more than twice the level it was at the last Westminster contest (in real polls as well) and that the SNP has won the Argyll and Bute Scottish parliament seat interim having come from very poor third place to do so.
Unless something cataclysmic happens in the next few months (always a political possibility) the SNP's Michael MacKenzie will win Argyll and Bute and the Tories may just creep into a distant second place against a receding LibDem vote.
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The Scotsman did an online poll last week asking the independence question. The laSt time I checked it the figures were a resounding majoity for independence. I didn't see the result published however. Did anybody else?
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A little better news for Dean can be extracted from today's Ipsos-Mori poll.
I would say that that local circumstances make it likely that a number of other seats will fall to the SNP such as Falkirk, Gordon, Glenrothes and Livingston
On these bare figures replicated across the Scotland, the SNP and the Conservatives would make the following gains:
SNP Westminster gains
Dunfermline and West Fife - Willie Rennie - LAB
Dundee West - James McGovern - LAB
Kilmarnock and Loudoun - Des Browne - LAB
Midlothian - David Hamilton - LAB
Linlithgow and East Falkirk - Michael Connarty - LAB
Lanark and Hamilton East - Jimmy Hood - LAB
Aberdeen North - Frank Doran - LAB
Paisley and Renfrewshire North - James Sheridan - LAB
Glasgow North - Ann McKechin - LAB
Edinburgh East - Gavin Strang - LAB
Ayrshire North and Arran - Katy Clark - LAB
East Lothian - Anne Moffat - LAB
Inverness Nairn Badenoch and Strathspey - Danny Alexander - LIB
Aberdeen South - Anne Begg - LAB
Edinburgh South West - Alistair Darling - LAB
Edinburgh North and Leith - Mark Lazarowicz - LAB
Stirling - Anne McGuire - LAB
Ochil and South Perthshire - Gordon Banks - LAB
Argyll and Bute - Alan Reid - LIB
Conservative Westminster gains
Edinburgh South - Nigel Griffiths - LAB
Renfrewshire East - Jim Murphy - LAB
Dumfries and Galloway - Russell Brown - LAB
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Today's Politics Show hosted by Glenn 'Defining Moment' Campbell bordered on the absurd at times.
There was the wonderfull moment when, discussing what cuts the Scottish Gobernment might have to consider in the forthcoming budget, Catriona Renton decided that the £500 million cut to the grant by Westminster was an 'efficiency saving'.
We also had Glenn waving a copy on Scotland on Sunday (Yes, it's come to that) at John Swinney and asking if the front page story of a 'tax for cyclists' plan was really being considered - "No" was the short and decidedly sweet answer.
On Diageo Glenn also managed to slip in yet another Labour sound bite and history re-write by asking Swinney if the now accepted that "The Scottish Government alternative plan" had failed. Anyone else remember when this was a cross party initiative?
Pride of place though goes not to the item that sought to attack the SNP over Scotland's failure on the football pitch but the item on the new alcohol legislation that presented views from a variety of retailers as well as members of the ......... wait for it:
Prestonpans Labour Party Social Club
Watch it if you can on iplayer - the comments from the members are unintentionally comical.
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sneckedagain @ 270:
Dunfermline and West Fife - Willie Rennie - LAB
Lib Dem surely.
Have the UN started looking into the goings on in Glenrothestan yet?
Mohammed Glasseye's electoral triumph was all over the news amidst all sorts of accusations.
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Re: My comment at 271.
Scottish Gobernment
Has a nice ring to it I think.
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#241 JRMacClure
Which take is likely to be more accurate? Yougov or electoralcalculus? Any thoughts?
As YouGov is a reputable polling agency and electoral calculus is one person's website with an UK electoral calculator on it, it's a bit like asking which is more accurate an elephant or a piece of string. And I am not criticising; we bandy terms about that we know what is being talked about when others don't. I'd have been just as lost at COMDEX.
YouGov polls are quality controlled and published. They state the results are weighted by last vote recall and subsequent poll results. This means that they are adjusting their results by the polled's recollection of how they voted getting on for 5 years ago. Accurate, yes if there has not been a paradigm shift, however their polls show there has been this extraordinary shift from the SNP underwhelming to virtual parity with the outstanding leader over the last 50 years Labour.
The main concern of the man behind electoralcalculus is the "next UK Government" so Scottish seats per se are only of interest if their composition affects the Westminster balance. Despite what you might read on other "political" blogs the 59 Scottish seats have not affected the Government majority since 1997. We have a Labour Government at Westminster thanks to voters in England and Wales and it looks as if we will have a Tory Government in exactly the same way. He has noticed that Scottish politics are going there own sweet way and has incorporated a "regional" selection in his overall UK calculation. As far as I can make out his method is to project present swings back onto the 2005 results with some fiddle factor representing the UK Labour -> Tory swing. Accurate, never. Dean is out of his tiny mind to think that the electoralcalculus "result" for Argyll has any veracity. However in aggregate not too bad 25 "seats" could be 22 or 28.
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#271 Online_Ed
On Diageo Glenn also managed to slip in yet another Labour sound bite and history re-write by asking Swinney if the now accepted that "The Scottish Government alternative plan" had failed. Anyone else remember when this was a cross party initiative?
It transpires that Des Browne has not got the ‘nose in the trough job’ at NATO that he was after.
It is also understood that, despite fighting a difficult and ultimately unsuccessful battle to stop Diageo moving its Johnnie Walker bottling plant from Kilmarnock, Browne wants to step down as an MP at the next general election.
Browne looks for Holyrood move in 2011.
It is widely anticipated that he will replace Lord Foulkes as the top candidate on the Lothians list.
It is also understood that Browne's inclusion on the list may be part of a wider effort to bring more weight, experience and talent into the Labour group in Holyrood. There are concerns that there are very few "big hitters" among the Labour MSP group.
It is believed that several other current Labour MPs who are in danger of losing their seats are also considering trying to get elected to Holyrood through the list system.
It appears that the rats are abandoning the sinking ship.
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Browne to concede defeat in Kilmarnock, step-down and take over unelected top of Lothians list role from Foulkes.
http://news.scotsman.com/entertainment/Browne-looks-for-Holyrood-move.5642375.jp
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When even Tavish is noticing that Calman has just about imploded you know things are bad for the Brit Nat side!
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/scotland/article6831647.ece
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#276 pattymkirkwood
Your ‘Pass the Pill’ link at #131 appears to be doing the rounds. It is even on Guy Fawkes site:
Bonkers in the Bunker.
Nice picture of Jimmy Brown attached to it.
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#278, Roll_On, indeed ... it seems the media is not wholly reliable for the current government, leaks occur slowly and spread.
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#271 -online ed. unable as yet to see the said prog on I- player which would suggest you are correct, they must still be trying to De-cringe it.
on the positive side at least we now know where they did their poll re the release of Mr Al Megrahi why change a winning formula!
Sid.
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Their coming out of the woodwork at last. Iain Banks
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Great result for the SNP in today's opinion poll.
I've just noticed from the Sunday Express story that IPSOS Mori carried out their fieldwork "at the end of August". That was exactly the period when the massed ranks of the Unionist media were attacking MacAskill for his decision to release Al-Megrahi and before the spotlight turned to Westminster's murky role. If the SNP was polling well then, it's probably polling even better now.
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280 - sidthesceptic
#271 -online ed. unable as yet to see the said prog on I- player which would suggest you are correct, they must still be trying to De-cringe it.
I may be wrong but it is my understanding that there is a 24 hour lag from initial broadcast to iplayer.
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#257. At 07:57am on 13 Sep 2009, Diabloandco wrote:
249 Double negatives a plenty!Makes a nonsense of the nonsense you wrote.
JR , I take it you got at RT TV then?
Salmond and Brown " best buddies " Sheesh!
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Ummm. That was a joke, Diabloandco.
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#274. At 1:45pm on 13 Sep 2009, handclapping wrote:
#241 JRMacClure
Which take is likely to be more accurate? Yougov or electoralcalculus? Any thoughts?
As YouGov is a reputable polling agency and electoral calculus is one person's website with an UK electoral calculator on it, it's a bit like asking which is more accurate an elephant or a piece of string. And I am not criticising; we bandy terms about that we know what is being talked about when others don't. I'd have been just as lost at COMDEX.
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Thanks for explanation.
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#I agree, It really beggars belief how the richest country in the world holds its less well of in such contempt. Perhaps these ethics were absent when the country was young and scrabbling about looking for it's definition of the American Dream.
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You mean back when most of our population was denied the vote and a substantial portion was held in slavery? *sigh*
No, I can't explain it in a supposedly civilized country, but then do you know another civilized country with the death penalty? Oh, apologies. We do share that with China, Iran, Pakistan, and Saudi Arabia so we're in good company there.
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284. At 4:38pm on 13 Sep 2009, you wrote:
#257. At 07:57am on 13 Sep 2009, Diabloandco wrote:
249 Double negatives a plenty!Makes a nonsense of the nonsense you wrote.
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By the way, "I am not a Scot." contains no double negatives. It is, however, a fact. Deal with it. =)
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I almost feel sorry for the cybernats on this blog, almost. Their level of disappointment at the General Election results may be almost too much to bear, almost.
Just to remind them: at the Scottish Election in 2007, 142,000 votes were not counted due to 'spoiled papers'. Electors know how a General Election works so these 142,000 votes are back in play. They are not all SNP votes.
The turnout for Council elections, European elections and Scottish Elections are far smaller than for General Elections. A very unpopular government at Westminster could trigger turn-out of between 70 and 75 per cent. That increase in voters, somewhere around 20 per cent are highly unlikely to be SNP supporters.
In 2005, Alex Salmond, very cleverly, turned the Scottish Election into a two-horse race with Labour. Labour and Conservatives will use exactly the same tactic in a General Election and the media will buy into that, the publicity for the SNP will be virtually zero.
The net result is that seats that the SNP expect to pick up will fall to other parties. The Highlands will, as always, return Lib-Dem MPs. The SNP will maybe gain a couple of seats, but no more than that. The Labour vote will collapse and quite a lot of it (e.g. Mondeo Man and Galaxy Woman) will change their vote to the Conservatives. My prediction between 15 and 20 Conservative MPs.
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Uh-oh - its another downturn in the lighting industry - the Master has some free time and is deigning to illuminate us.
Whatever it is, your mob are beat, deal with it.
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Hi all .. can anyone tell me. John Swinney is saying that we are going to be 500 million quid worse off this year in public spending but Labour say we are going to be 600 million better off. Who is right and how can one of them be a billion quid out.
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oh and another thing .. when is this Glasgow bi-election happening ...surely Labour have had long enough to sort it out now.
I read GB might be trying to get into the Scottish parliament for 2011..why is this ? Is it because of impending independence and he would be out of a job ? Ian Grey he is after your job mate ...Father Ted and Father Dougal Maguire what a pair.
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How accurate are YouGov predictions this far in (probable) advance of a GE? Anyone know the history of that?
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261. At 08:54am on 13 Sep 2009, Online_Ed wrote:
i read the article, and the underlying theme - ie why did alex salmond not employ the same vigour defend these jobs - is fair. but then the article blows it and goes away in a tangent. i got lost until later on where it points out that the scottish government intend to lower corporation taxes. so why did the article not point this out near the beginning? or is it a tactic to make an attack, then confuse the reader so that they lose interest and turn the page before reading the "balanced" reporting?
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MagisterIlluminatus.
You've blown it with your risible post. I've saved it for a good laugh next year.
I could point out that these projections do not come from the "nats" on this blog but from unbiased polling organisations. We are merely reporting these projections. Yipee!
I note that Iain Banks, Daniella Nardini and Sir Jackie Stewart have all "come out". The little burn becomes a river and will soon become a torrent.
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288. MagisterIlluminatus
"My prediction between 15 and 20 Conservative MPs. "
There. there, away and lie down, you've been staring at the light for too long, haven't you?
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293 barbarian9:
Re: Alf Young
On the face of it it is a reasonable question to ask, why the furore over Diageo? and not over Bausch and Lomb.
The answer is two fold:
1. The impact on Kilmarnock will be devastating, the firm has been in Kilmarnock for generations and lives will have been built on such jobs.
2. The indigenous nature of the Whisky industry brought this closure into sharp focus. There is also the underlying fear that Diageo, having taken this step for business decisions, might at some point move the entire bottling plant out of Scotland.
This was essentially a shot across the Diageo bows. They have been warned that taking liberties with a product that can only be created in Scotland will not be tolerated and that owning a major part of Scotland's whisky industry comes with responsibilities. The message has been that yes, restructuring in order to maintain an honest profit is acceptable however Scottish communities are not expendable.
Bausch and Lomb manufactures contact lenses, there is no historical or emotional connection to Scotland - the product can be made anywhere. The job losses are less than at Kilmarnock, (which when Port Dundas is added makes a total loss of 900) and won't have the same effect on the area.
An independent Scottish Government will have been able to apply more pressure and indeed put in place tighter constraints to ensure that communities built around Whisky were protected.
Alf Young has basically used the job losses at not one but two Scottish plants in order to attack the SNP. Young displays the same malaise that has infected Unionist politicians in that his default position when looking at any issue is to see how it can be used to attack the SNP.
Like erstwhile Herald journalist and now BBC Business correspondent Douglas Fraser, Alf Young has little credibility amongst independence supporters. Like Fraser when he was still in the employ of The Herald, Young is constantly wheeled out by the BBC on Newsnight Scotland.
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288. MagisterIlluminatus
This one is for you http://wilk4.com/humor/humore10.htm
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#295 ... Maybe he is a moth and banged his head on the bulb a few times to many ;O)}
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Alf Young of course was a candidate for the Labour Party.
With all the furore being manufactured about the present changes in licensing provision it is worth pointing out that the legislation for this was passed by the Labour/LibDem Executive. This government has merely inherited (like the Edinburgh trams)some of the last administrations programme which was voted by them through Parliament.
It was piloted by the unlamented ex member for Argyll and Bute George Lyon.
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297. InfrequentAllele
"297. At 7:58pm on 13 Sep 2009, InfrequentAllele wrote:
288. MagisterIlluminatus"
Its magic mushroom time again and this year the crop must be in abundance.
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288. At 6:12pm on 13 Sep 2009, MagisterIlluminatus wrote:
Labour and Conservatives will use exactly the same tactic in a General Election and the media will buy into that, the publicity for the SNP will be virtually zero.
This focussing on Labour and the Conservatives has been highlighted before. In Scotland the two big players are the SNP and Labour, however the inherent bias within London controlled broadcasting ensures that the SNP are marginalised in UK broadcasts throughout campaigns.
Of course this time it may very well benefit the SNP as Labour and the Conservatives batter lumps out of one another. This worked to Labour's advantage when they were the fresh faces and the Tories were the party eaten up by sleaze and corruption.
What we will witness now is the stench of years of Labour party corruption and ineptitude paraded nightly on our TV screens. The prospect of more of the same, the Tories or the SNP will focus minds for sure.
Labour will have to fight on two flanks, however they are already looking bereft of ideas in Scotland - so much so that they seem to have jettisoned any ideas or policies and are reduced to making false allegations and smears.
Take a look at their paralysis over Megrahi in Scotland - Jim Murphy issuing a pathetic statement regarding the prison visit, the story has long since moved on from there.
This won't work in an election campaign, nor will the prospect of a twitching Iain Gray alongside Salmond or Sturgeon in a TV studio - ergo Gray will 'go missing' for the campaign duration.
Leaderless in Scotland, Brown being hammered in England over the econonomic mishandling and Murphy issuing bland statements in Scotland. Labour are finished, completely and utterly.
The first tell tale signs were when Labour MP's started to migrate towards Holyrood. It's started - the 300 year old hibernation is over, a new dawn awaits.
Jump aboard my friend.
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Just catching up with the Sunday papers.
Harry Reid has a very well balanced argument for Scottish Independence.
http://www.heraldscotland.com/comment/harry-reid/welcome-reality-check-in-corridors-of-power-1.918842
Why is it good? Because he says what is obvious to most on here!
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It is timwe to draw up a roll of honour of those media persons who are objective and fair when it comes to the SNP. These include Campbell Gunn of the Sunday Post, Rob Dinwoodie of the Herald. Professor James Mitchell of Strathclyde University, Gerry Hassan, Iain MacWhirter, Ian Bell,Elaine C Smith (sacked by the Sunday Mail).
There may be many more but they don't spring to mind. My sister talked to a tabloid journalist who is member of the SNP and is in distress by being forced to write anti-SNP diatribes. We have a journalist in my SNP branch in the same difficult position
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Dean the Tory
After contribution #288, I understand why you have fears about others in your party.
#292 JRMacClure
You'd be better asking that on sites like politicalbetting or UK polling report. It is claimed that the polls at the end of the summer before a GE are a good indication of how the GE will go; whether this is true, I have no idea.
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#288 MagisterIlluminatus
You sound exactly like one of these numpties who seem to believe the SNP are some passing fad, and if you and your dwindling rump use dismissive terms like 'cybernat' and 'seperatist' often enough, 'normal service' will be restored, right?
Wrong.
The fact that your entire argument relies on factors you assume will turn against the SNP speaks for itself.
However, you conveniently overlooked one or two points.
One:- The SNP have won the last two popular votes in Scotland, most recently the Euro election by a considerable margin. On the strength of recent performances - especially that of Labour - the likelihood of that position being reversed at the General Election is diminished to say the least.
Two:- At all previous General Elections, the SNP has been an opposition party, untested in government. That 'barrier' no longer exists.
Three:-
"In 2005, Alex Salmond, very cleverly, turned the Scottish Election into a two-horse race with Labour. Labour and Conservatives will use exactly the same tactic in a General Election and the media will buy into that, the publicity for the SNP will be virtually zero.
Priceless!
The Scottish political scene has been a 'two-horse race' for the past 20 years, and the SNP has never had equal billing with the unionist parties in the UK media.
The way in which Scotland is portrayed as part of a two-way battleground between Tory and Labour is an absolute farce.
But that hasn't prevented SNP support from building decade upon decade, through the dedication and commitment of many, including some no longer with us, from fourth to first place, to become the largest political party with the most effective campaigning ability in Scotland.
By way of context, I'm not one of those who gets 'starry-eyed' about polls, or assumes SNP successes before the votes are counted.
Recent SNP success has been extremely hard won, and every vote must be earned at each and every election.
I'm happy to say though, Magister, that your own assumptions are stuck well and truly in the past.
This is 2009, not 1979! :-)
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Yes sneckedagain, I've often thought that a modern day Ragman's Roll in reverse would be an excellent idea.
However this:
Elaine C Smith (sacked by the Sunday Mail).
...is something I read a week or so ago and wanted to include it in Newsnet Scotland but could not verify it. Smith appears to have left the Sunday Mail before the Megrahi release or was her departure due to her overall SNP support and not her views on the release?
So, question is - can you verify this claim?
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JR , I noted no double negatives from you , 'twas another blogger I was getting at.Ref.249
I watched an RT TV show during which the chap interviewed said that
" everyone knew that Gordon Brown and Alex Salmond were best buddies."
I assumed your reference was to that and you had, indeed ,"gone to get them"for misrepresentation or just plain old lies.
Crossed wires somewhere I think.
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Just catching up with the Sunday papers.
Harry Reid has a very well balanced argument for Scottish Independence.
http://www.heraldscotland.com/comment/harry-reid/welcome-reality-check-in-corridors-of-power-1.918842
Why is it good? Because he says what is obvious to most on here!
Thanks for the link oldnat, and the guy is spot on. People can argue about the oil, future prosperity etc, but its about making our own choices, taking our own chances like any other country in the world does.
That is why I support independence, because I believe we have the people the resources and the strength of character to make life better for all the people of Scotland, its just having the self belief to do it.
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Lockerbie questions remain
Harris tweed maker drops 'Scottish' marketing over Lockerbie release
"The company, whose chairman, Brian Wilson, a former government minister, believes it was a mistake to release Abdelbaset Ali Mohmed Al Megrahi, has removed references to Scotland and Scottish imagery from its promotional material."
Two fingers to him and others playing politics with this issue.
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#303 sneckedagain
I think you can include Joan McAlpine too. Last I heard she was at the Sunday Times. Didn't seem to last long at The Herald after she came out.
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#307. At 8:36pm on 13 Sep 2009, Diabloandco wrote:
JR , I noted no double negatives from you , 'twas another blogger I was getting at.Ref.249
I watched an RT TV show during which the chap interviewed said that
" everyone knew that Gordon Brown and Alex Salmond were best buddies."
I assumed your reference was to that and you had, indeed ,"gone to get them"for misrepresentation or just plain old lies.
Crossed wires somewhere I think.
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Yes, totally crossed wires. Put the joke (obviously not a good one) down to my having the flu and yesterday I was in rather poor case. I intended to make fun of the people who have said that. I can see Mr. Salmond throwing himself under a tram before he took orders from Gordon Brown.
I admire Mr. Salmond greatly. Don't suppose you're up for exporting him?
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Crunch time: Scottish grumblings are bad enough, but divorce?
"Alex Salmond’s Nationalists run the Scottish Government, albeit on a minority basis, and have gained in confidence. They now want a referendum on independence."
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I must say I did enjoy all your responses. Just dismiss it out of hand, and don't try to engage with the thought that 70-75 per cent might turn out and around 20 percent of that new vote won't be voting SNP. Enjoyed your responses, pity they all had an air of quiet desperation.
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306
I got the information from the secretary of the Independence Convention (David McCann). Elaine C Smith is convenor of the Independence Convention.
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Thanks sneckedagain - quite shocking if she was removed for her political beliefs.
Comment 313 MagisterIlluminatus:
Some people took the time to respond and to qualify their position, this despite the insulting opening line of your comment. Other posters treated parts of your comment (and yourself) with understandable disdain, no desperation was evident.
This is not The Scotsman where abuse reigns supreme - I suggest you forego the introductory insults in future.
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There are very formidable difficulties facing journalists in Scotland at the moment many of whom are being asked to chose between their principles and their jobs.
There are others whose vendettas against the SNP are prosecuted with considerable enthusiasm.
There are many in the grey area in between.
Odd that the most demented offerings come from female journalists.
Dorothy Grace Elder in the Express, an ex and largely unlamented SNP MSP no less, is vitriolic weekly against chosen targets, Nicola Sturgeon being her major intended victim.
Muriel Gray similarly on a couple of occasions has disgraced herself in the Sunday Herald with infantile banshee pieces against "wee Eck" as she calls our great leader. Jenny Hujl writes mince for an uninformed English audience as most of it would be laughed out of court in Scotland.
There appears to be personal malice rather than "bought and sold etc" at the root of these offerings.
Despite suggestions to the contrary I find both Brian Taylor and Gordon Brewer well balanced inside the confines of given subject matter in which they are forced to operate. Glen Campbell on the other hand has become a figure of fun and I no longer watch Michael Crow's sorry excuse for a political programme. Does anybody else?
Oddly enough I think there is an honest woman trying to get out in Lorraine Davidson. I hope she makes it.
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#306 Online_Ed .. on her site she says that she new she was lucky being a main writer for a Labour newspaper and that her luck would run out. Alas she went on holiday knowing it was the end but didnt expect to not get to write one last peice. Labour must be turning the screws tighter .. is panic setting in !
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This Englishman admits that he does not know much about the National Conversation because of course, there is no such conversation going on in England.
However, as I'm guessing it is mostly about whether or not the Scots leave the Union then it is useful to look ahead and try to visualise what the political atmosphere might be in Scotland next year as the referendum date approaches.
Firstly, Cameron and the Tories will probably be in power down in Westmonster. As the Tories appear to barely exist in Scotland then that should be an important factor in favour of the SNP.
Secondly, Cameron or whoever is in power in London is going to have to dish out some pretty unpleasant medicine in terms of public sector cuts and that again, I suspect, will not go down at all well in Scotland.
Thridly, and to my simple English mind, most importantly, the England football team, might just improve enough to win the World Cup.
Which, although it is somewhat irrational, will probably not go down at all well in Scotland, especially as the native team has failed to qualify this time around.
All-in-all, these factors, along with an SNP Government that seems to be performing well, might just be enough to cause a majority of Scots to vote for independence.
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Sneckedagain
I was flicking the channels the other night and ended up watching what appeared to be an impartial (not Fox then ) european round up of the news.Interesting, informative and made me wonder why we could'nt have a a half hour programme after the 6 o'clock news.I realise it would'nt be everyones cup of tea (delaying Emmerdale and all that ) but your point about it being a difficult time for journalists here ,if we had a glimpse of whats happening in Europe rather than being blindly led by a media with an agenda ,perhaps the floating voters would be able to put into perspective what Scotland would be/could be like if it was independant ,rather than always being compared to England (no offence to England but your fed by the same media.) Also the journalists /presenters would also have to start being a little less partisan
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313. MagisterIlluminatus
"I must say I did enjoy all your responses."
Jolly good, we try to please.
"Just dismiss it out of hand, and don't try to engage with the thought that 70-75 per cent might turn out and around 20 percent of that new vote won't be voting SNP."
So around 80% of that new vote will be voting SNP.... ?!?!?
" Enjoyed your responses, pity they all had an air of quiet desperation. " Now that's twice you have said that in one short post. Are we somehow to be impressed by the fact that you enjoy ridicule?
It seems to me you are the kind of chap who gets honest self-abusers a bad name.
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#318 JohnConstable
Every World Cup (since our side decided that glorious failure is far preferable!) I've set out to support England - only to be so irritated by your sports commentators failing to realise that they are not just broadcasting to England, that I revert to the Andy Murray stance!
You have now given me good reason to support England and wish them to win. Your commentators will be so offensively boastful, that I can be simultaneously happy that our neighbours have done well, while your commentators stack the votes up for independence.
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Much of this "Americans hate us" stuff is for internal consumption and I suspect most of it is made up to put fear into the Scottish electorate. I just wonder if Brian Wilson's dropping of the Scottish tag is one such myth and if, in reality, it is not actually happening. It would cost them a lot of money to do this. All the withdrawal of advertising and remarketing the product etc. Where Labour is involved nothing can be believed. Will a reporter check on this please? If true it would serve his company right if it didn't give him the sales he expects. Can Harris tweed be anything at all without the 'Scottish' tag.
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253. At 05:29am on 13 Sep 2009, pattymkirkwood wrote:
Dean - that prediction in Argyle is just wildly off, the Labour vote there will collapse, not edge down just enough to allow the Tories to sneak through!
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We will see who is right, but as we alrady have one bet on I ont force this issue (i am only a student afterall, though I reckon I'm right)
;)
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You hear next to nothing about it over here. I have yet to hear an American say they were mad or were boycotting anything Scottish. And I have asked around a bit.
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#322 I think the 'silent majority' that the press would like us to believe were 'keep Al Megrahi in jail' supporters actually turned out to be a lot of disgruntled people fed up being peddled sh*te by the Labour press and biased BBC. Quite frankly you are correct when you say Labour cant be believed. I think Scotland will come out a lot stronger because of this even though America is a bit upset. Scotland is a Westie chasing a cat nae a poodle sitting beside its American master.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
If you haven't seen it, the Herald's archive of stories since 1989 is a useful resource.
http://www.heraldscotland.com/2.377/archive-index-7.550/politics-7.788
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Oh, a good resource, oldnat. I immediately saw something I had missed before although I have a feeling it must have been pointed out here at some point.
http://www.heraldscotland.com/blogs/parcel-of-rogues/wall-street-waffle-1.918457
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From the Scotsman - re the closure of the Benbecula rocket testing site.
http://news.scotsman.com/politics/Island-missile-test-site-facing.5642996.jp
"However, Labour has claimed that the SNP is being hypocritical about any defence cuts.
Labour argues that if the SNP managed to get independence then, as a result, all the defence jobs would be under threat"
Surely Labour are missing the point. If defence jobs aren't going to be provided in Scotland, then what's the point of the Union? No point in us sending tax to London, if it just stays south of the border.
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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/6176148/Guernseys-parliament-declared-unfit-for-purpose.html
"Guernsey's parliament declared unfit for purpose" - sounds just like Westminster!
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#329 oldnat
From the Scotsman - re the closure of the Benbecula rocket testing site.
Please oldnat you are showing your age. The terminology is Missile.
I linked to this downgrade of Benbecula in my posting at#255.
It just does not make any sense whatsoever. I have tried to make sense of it but the best I can come up with is that this is an attempt by NuLabour to hit the SNP using Scottish jobs.
The next comparable missile or UAV’s test site is Vidsel in Sweden but due to the long winters in that country Vidsel is shut down for a large part of the year. Surely it is in both the UK and European future interests that Benbecula is maintained in its current state, and is not relegated to the same status as Buchan.
But there again perhaps Scotland has another thing to offer the EU when they do gain independence.
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#331 Roll_On_2010
Sorry, I missed your post on this. For me it will continue to be "Rockets Galore", and we need some pink seagulls! (apologies to those of you too young to have seen the film).
Thanks for the info on the Swedish site. I didn't know that. Any idea why the Brits are transferring the facility to Wales? Have they asked the Irish?
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JR MacClure
I just saw a Gallup poll from earlier this year that showed only 39% of Americans accept the theory of evolution. How is it possible for your country to have become the world's dominant country when a majority of your population are clearly credulous, gullible or just plain stupid?
Alternatively, is having such a population (like the Brits from the 19th century to the present), actually a necessary precondition for imperialism?
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If it's an attempt to his at the SNP it looks likely to backfire on them. But that has been the case with most of what they've done so what's new, I suppose.
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Again the gulf between British and Scottish politics is clear,
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/telegraph-view/6184444/What-is-the-state-of-Europe.html
"To observe that the issue of Europe provokes passions in this country is an understatement. It has been the deepest fissure in British politics for almost 50 years as the country sought to come to terms with its post-imperial status and the implications of transferring sovereignty for the first time to a supra-national body" in 1707!
We transferred "sovereignty for the first time to a supra-national body" only is an issue for the Brits.
For Scotland the question is very different. Do we restore sovereignty to where Scots constitutional law places it - with the Scottish people - but choose to pool aspects of it with a small (UK) or large (EU) number of our neighbours in these islands, and on the continental land mass so close to us?
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#333 oldnat
Perhaps the 39% you refer to in the Gallup poll are members of the ‘flat earth society’.
We have a large contingency of these people in the UK. Many would argue that this is what NuLabour was built upon, who am I to disagree!
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#336 Roll_On_2010
My turn to correct you! 61% of Americans appear to be flat-earthers - the 39% are the sensible ones.
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Mr Constable, feel free to visit the National Conversation and the Realm of Scotland sites.
As with all websites, there are some comments from the insane and the challenged but stilll worth a visit.
Moridura and Subrosa are two bloggers well worth visiting.
I'm with oldnat as far as footie goes!
The commentators are the ones who have put Scots agin the English football team and we've had 1966 up to our eyeballs and beyond!
Lets face it , most teams relinquish the World Cup after 4 years ,they don't mormally dine out on one victory forty odd years ago!
Much pleasure in Scotland when Croatia beat them the time before last ,since we had listened to the BBBC bunch tell us " this is merely a formality so we'll look ahead to the next game" Delighted that Croatia had other ideas for that particular game!
The other nonsense that irritates is some commentator refer to " minor medals" at major sports meetings.
Sorry , rambling ! Up too early and fidgety!
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#337 oldnat
Touche!
One other point many people bang on about UK/English defence. When in fact a number of the most recent defence initiatives have not been solely developed by the UK but by a partnership of European countries working together sharing costs and skills.
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Nice article on the Beeb:
Law to care for dying 'supported'.
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#338 Diabloandco
I was going to quote Mr Constable's original piece, but you've opened a dialogue so I'll chip in here.
First off, Football isn't the most rational thing to associate with politics. John Motson, for all his ill's never dictates that Scotlands just a wee nyaff country than can't handle it's own affairs.
The fact we see and hear him talking about '66 at every international England game is symptomatic of the fact that all international football games are broadcast for the benefit of the English, not the Scots. We just so happen to be in the unenviable position where we in Scotland have no choice but to tune into the same diatribe.
If you had Motson et al spouting his "Samba football" and "66" on one channel - whats to stop an independent scottish broadcaster broadcasting the same game but with different commentary on another? Not so hard to do really...
Think about it. Where does 99.9% of the money in football come from and where is it spent? The answer is BSKYB and England respectively. Corect me if I'm wrong - but in an independent Scotland, we'd have every right to seek a change in the programs produced and aired in this country? Some could stay the same but again some should most definitely change to reflect the fact that the Scots arn't the English.
Who knows? Maybe if that happens we'll never hear a '66 utterance again during a World Cup - and on that day we can, with a nostalgic tear in our eyes, tell our grandchildren about the legendary John Motson.
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Interesting gender-gap article from the Independent:
Blair's legacy squandered as Brown loses the women's vote.
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# 318 JohnConstable
'the England football team, might just improve enough to win the World Cup. '
I watched England win 5-1 the other night and was quite impressed by them. Don't tell anyone on here that I said that. Normally I happily support the other team but I have to admit that I have supported England twice: 1. When you won the world cup (we all wanted Germany to lose) and, 2. Soon after the Falklands war when you played Argentina (same reason above).
I would like to echo some of the comments above regarding your commentators about their blatant partisan view, even when England was playing the home nations; those were the days. I would be more than happy to support my neighbour, even though I live in England and support Liverpool, if and when we get independence. Until that time arrives I will continue to pretend that I want England to get beat every time and in every sport. ;-)
The bits of your post prior to this I concur.
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GAAberdeen , good morning to you and my home town and thanks for waking me up sufficiently to smile!
Rollon 2010, thanks for that ,I would argue that women have no less a grasp of political shennanigans than men.
Perhaps they are even more aware of economic strife than men on a daily basis.
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Apparently the Tories/Labour/Liberal parties are planning to vote against the budget if the SNP don't stop the National Conversation.
Seems they have forgotten their embarrassment of last year and want a similar humiliating dose .
They also appear to have forgotten the Calman Commission , memorable as it was!
How much did it cost again?
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318. At 10:39pm on 13 Sep 2009, JohnConstable wrote: (...)
Thridly, and to my simple English mind, most importantly, the England football team, might just improve enough to win the World Cup.
You were doing quite well until then. I have £10 that says Scotland is independent before England wins the World Cup.
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#345 Diabloandco - 'Apparently the Tories/Labour/Liberal parties are planning to vote against the budget if the SNP don't stop the National Conversation'
If the budget i not passed after a few amendments can the SNP not dissolve parliament as there would be no confidence and force another election or is this not the case.
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You have to remember why there is anti-English feeling over the football. It's mainly because we get it stuffed down our throats by the London based media whilst they relegate Scotland to getting very little recognition, even when it does do well. That situation has changed a bit, thanks to Salmond's attack on broadcasting, but Scotland is still deprived of seeing its own games free on TV. I believe that if the media was a bit fairer then Scots would fall in behind supporting the England team.
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obviousalias @ 346 et al re: football
Legendary Scotland and Liverpool football player Alan Hansen, in comments post the Croatia game, says that England are not yet good enough to win the World Cup, mainly because they do not keep possession when playing against the very best teams.
I believe that is very valid comment and England will have to improve to be able to overcome the likes of Brazil and Spain.
As an Englishman, I am desparate for the English football team to win the World Cup, mainly for the political reasons as described in my earlier post @ 318 - England should be politically independent too, as Scotland aspires to be.
That really would be a win-win-win situation.
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Diabloandco re 345
ubinworryinmasheep re 347
This is just more newspaper spin. Everyone in Scotland including the man no one knows, I think he thinks he is leader of the Labour group at Holyrood, that the opposition do not have the round spherical objects need to vote down the budget. Even less chance now after the latest poll in the Sunday Express, which the BBC in its rush to be impartial seems to have missed.
We will get the usual grandstanding and petted lips, but John Swinney will hold a few millions back and agree to some minor changes. Then the torys can claim they showed compassion by getting a few tins of paint for some town centers, Labour can get less than they were originally offered, just like the apprentices last year, and the greens and the Lib Dems will achieve the same as last year, nothing.
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PS. Who would never ever be even remotely considered for the England football managers job despite being the most successful football manager in the English Premiership over the past two decades?
Step forward Scot Alex Ferguson.
Not that he'd want the job anyway, but that is not the (political) point.
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I think you'll discover that the Unionist parties will support this year's Scottish Budget provided they gain a few concessions which, as you rightly point out, Mr. Swinney is probably holding in reserve anyway.
The major problem is that whichever Party assumes power following the General Election, they will have to have an Emergency Budget within two months. It will have a significant impact on the Scottish Budget which is likely to shrink by £3.2 Billion by 2014 or 10 per cent across the board, including NHS spending.
So, Mr. Swinney's current budget proposals, whatever they may be, are meaningless.
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Thanks to those who picked up on points concerning teachers, parents and kids. Its good to be able to state your position on something in such a non confrontational way. I only had one after thought about what I' written and that is that I realised parents do already have the tools at hand to bring up their kids in a respectful way. I see many of my friends doing a fine job with what they have. Alas it is a fact that a growing proportion just don't put the time and effort into it. Nobody said it would nor in fact should be easy, bringing up a kid.
Power to the teachers!
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YouGov poll in the Sunday Times yesterday - usual warning about the wee sample size (175) and the lack of balance to the Scottish demographic. However, SNP 35%, Lab 28%, Con 19%, LD 13% suggests some confirmation for the MORI poll which has no detail yet.
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349
Yup, I hope you win it too. For forty years it's been acting as though it has won it every time it wins a game. Maybe it won't be so pathetic if it actually has won it. Please BBC spare us the fallout though!
PLS?!
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To return to the original point, surely we could cut down the party leaders bit of FMQs by doing away with the pointless "what is the FM doing today" introductory questions from each leader and associated pointless answer from the FM.
I haven't actually timed it, but those exchanges must last for a couple of minutes in total and I doubt anyone would miss them. In addition they are clearly a relic of Westminster parliamentary history which ought not to feature in a modern Scottish Parliament.
CC
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Re 329 OLDNAT
Surely it is you that misses the point, if we were independent the defence job losses would be huge, Morayshire decimated, Ship building finished on the Clyde, more redundancies at Rosyth, Leuchars, Closure of Faslane to name but a few.
That would be a lot of jobs. many in areas like Benbecula that would be difficult to replace.
This is a very real blow to the affected communities.
Also why has Alec not travelled to Benbecula with his megaphone to help them and support them in the same way he did at Kilmarnock? The jobs in Benbecula are a far more serious blow to that community than those in Kilmarnock in relative terms, no that I don't feel for those in Kilmarnock.
Would this have anything to do with Missiles not being such a strong symbol of Scotland as Johnnie Walker?
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# 351 JohnConstable
The best England manager that never was, was, of course, Brian Clough.
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I see Brian Wilson is now trying to backtrack on his foolish attempt at using Harris tweed in order to attack Kenny MacAskill.
Very irresponsible of Wilson to play with peoples livelihoods in this manner, especially in the current climate.
Chief executive Ian Mackenzie said:
"Harris Tweed Hebrides have never once thought about, far less spoken about, dropping the word Scottish.
We are a Scottish company. We are all proud Scots and we will continue to sell Harris Tweed all over the world as a Scottish product made in the Outer Hebrides of Scotland. To talk about de-Scottishifying or dropping Scotland is complete and utter nonsense."
Asked whether there had been a backlash against Scottish tweed following Megrahi's release on compassionate grounds, Mr Mackenzie said:
"Absolutely none. We sell about 5% of our product in the US and we have been speaking to people in the market over the past few weeks. There has been no reaction whatsoever. We would not expect any reaction."
So, there you have it the 'story' was fabrication from start to finish. This though won't stop the BBC reporting the myth of an 'American Backlash'.
However, I'll wager that they are desperately searching for any industry with a downturn in American orders that they can portray as being due to the Megrahi decision.
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obviousalias
I don't think anyone will take you on. Your money is safe. Can you imagine the good citizens of Portugal sitting dowen to the tewllies to watch their football and all they get is several hours of Spanish football. That is exactly what we get in Scotland. We get more than fours hours over any weekend of English Premier on BBC and a wee half hour late on a Monday night of our own top division.
It's pathetic and it says as much about the blazers who run our football as it says about the BBC in Scotland.
Not only that there is about twenty cameras at every English Premier match and a team of 40 or 50 and we have a handful of cameras and a handful of technicians at ours. I would like to know how much the BBC spends on covering English football and how much it spends on covering Scottish.
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#358, gedguy2
I don't know about "best", but he was definitely in the top one!
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357. northhighlander
"Morayshire decimated"
How can somewhere which only exist's in bowels of the BBC lose something if the place is imagined, there is no such area in Scotland.
This place does though.
As to the rest of your post how do you come to such cringe worthy conclusions.
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#357 northhighlander
You are faling for the usual Unionist propaganda. You are making a false contrast between the level of defence jobs here (which we pay for through taxes raised in Scotland) and an independent Scotland with no defence capability.
I presume you are aware that Labour have already reduced civilian defence jobs in Scotland by 3,800?
http://www.dasa.mod.uk/UKDS2008/c2/table203.html
Interestingly, the proportion of UK civilian jobs in Scotland in 2008 was 8.4% - exactly the same as our population share. There is no Union dividend in defence jobs. In 1997 Scotland had 9.8% of the UK's civilian defence jobs. You could have mounted an argument then.
Of course in an independent Scotland we would have to decide on whether the 6,500 civilian defence jobs in Scotland are actually required, or whether taxes are better spent in redeploying some of them to other uses. But that's the kind of decisions countries have to make all the time.
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On line Ed, where is Wilson backtracking, I'd like to read what he has to say after yesterday.
Nice to see the Chief Exec speaking out and up for Scotland and his firm.
And on the BBBC website too!
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And can anyone tell me if the Walkers shortbread story is drivel too
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#359 -on line-ed, yep, they did try shortbread on the radio news at lunchtime but the company they chose wouldn't even talk to them!!
I can think of another 2 companies whose product's Brian had on his tray before the summer recess ,will they maybe talk to BBC Scotland in return for the free publicity?
But will they say the right thing?
A tricky one that!!
as Brian himself might put it!
Sid
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The Harris Tweed story:
This is typical of a biased media. They generate headlines which are falsehoods and later or even within the same article report that they were untrue. So some voters will pick up on the headline and a bad impression is deliberately transmitted to them. Many will not see the denial so the impression left is permanent. This is scurrilous reporting of the news and those who are doing it are using the technique to suit their political agenda. Brian are you completely happy about how BBC Scotland is using this story?
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gedguy2 @ 358
I loved Cloughie's attitude, which could be broadly described as anti-establishment.
Which is, of course, why the blazers/suits would never offer him the
England job.
In a slightly more muted way, in recent times, that is probably also why Harry Redknapp has not been offered it either.
These 'establishment sorts' have been running England for hundreds of years, and now, thanks to Labours failings, we are about to get another dose, courtesy of Dave Cameron and his priviledged chums.
One more reason why I'm praying that the Scots will do the decent thing in November 2010 and vote for independence because it will have the effect in England of opening up the political scene to some other political entities, e.g. genuine independents, Greens, English Democrats et al.
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359. Online_Ed
Newssniffer
Old BBC nickname "Auntie Beeb" I suggest a new one "Anti Scot"
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"One senior Tory said the party would give “serious consideration” to voting down the budget. A senior Labour MSP said: “It’s possible we would say we won’t vote for the budget if there is to be further spending on the national conversation.”
Jason Allardyce , The Sunday Times
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Online_Ed re 359
Re the Harris Tweed none story.
The Daily Telegraph which was one of the papers that run with this story, still has the headline on the web site but the story has disappeared.
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#370 Diabloandco
"One senior Tory said the party would give “serious consideration” to having buttered scones. A senior Labour MSP said: “It’s possible we would say we won’t vote for the budget if we understood budgets.”
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Nope , its still there!
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/scotland/6183208/Harris-tweed-maker-drops-Scottish-marketing-over-Lockerbie-release.html
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#371. The Times Online STILL has the entire story up with (as far as I see) no change whatsoever to admit that it isn't true.
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re 363 Oldnat
You are trotting out the usual nationalist propaganda.
the simple fact is that the nationalist policy to not take such a full role in world affairs will mean that Scotland will not require the hardware that is required just now.
In an Independent Scotland we won't be building an aircraft carrier or two, several frigates, trident submarines from anything that I have read. Of course with no credible thinking on what type of defence we would have it is left to each to surmise. But assuming we stick to Alec's favourite comparisons, Ireland or Iceland it won't be a big capability and won't employ many on the Clyde building Frigates or Aircraft carriers. It won't be a big Air force either, so Morayshire can look out.
Therefore the number of defence jobs would fall. Significantly. To suggest anything else is not being entirely honest.
That is a legitimate decision to make and would without doubt free resources for other things, but please don't suggest that post independence there would be little change.
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I have just read the Harris tweed story. Go and read it then come and finish this posting as I have removed the blatant anti Scottish government propaganda and see the difference in reporting.
Firm denies 'de-Scottishify' move
The boss of a Harris Tweed manufacturer denied the firm was "de-Scottishifying" amid fears of a US backlash over the release of Lockerbie bomber.
Harris Tweed Hebrides' creative director Mark Hogarth was quoted in newspapers saying the company was no longer promoting itself as Scottish.
Chief executive Ian Mackenzie said Harris Tweed was a "Scottish icon".
Scottish product
Model and fashion consultant Mr Hogarth had been quoted as saying: "We have been getting a lot of feedback and we have had to de-Scottishify the image of the brand. If he had not been released we would not have altered anything."
However, the Harris Tweed Hebrides chief executive said Mr Hogarth worked part-time for the company on the fashion side of the business and was good at what he did, but was not a spokesman for the firm.
Mr Mackenzie said: "Harris Tweed Hebrides have never once thought about, far less spoken about, dropping the word Scottish.
"We are a Scottish company. We are all proud Scots and we will continue to sell Harris Tweed all over the world as a Scottish product made in the Outer Hebrides of Scotland."
Asked whether there had been a backlash against Scottish tweed following Megrahi's release on compassionate grounds, Mr Mackenzie said: "Absolutely none. We sell about 5% of our product in the US and we have been speaking to people in the market over the past few weeks.
"There has been no reaction whatsoever. We would not expect any reaction."
Harris Tweed Hebrides chairman Brian Wilson said Mr Hogarth had been "misrepresented".
The former Labour government minister said the Outer Hebrides-based company was not dropping Scotland from its marketing but was emphasising, as it always had done, its islands' roots.
Speaking to BBC Scotland, Mr Wilson said: "It is completely wrong to say that Harris Tweed is dropping Scotland.
"I think all that was said was that in the current climate we will emphasise the Hebrides, but Harris Tweed has always emphasised the Hebrides.
"I think this has been totally misrepresented and blown out of all proportion."
He added: "To talk about de-Scottishifying or dropping Scotland is complete and utter nonsense and is really quite dangerous nonsense."
Harris Tweed is specially handwoven wool by communities in Scotland's Western Isles.
Now tell me that the BBC Scotland is not putting out black propaganda!
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# 368 JohnConstable
I can find little to disagree with you on all of your posting.
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Harris Tweed Propoganda Story:
The Headline: 'Firm denies 'de-Scottishify' move'
'de-Scottishify' - what sort of word is this?
It suggests contortions on the part of someone who needed a word in the headline that suggested harm was being caused through association with Scotland.
Why not 'Firm Proud To Be Scottish'?
What is the agenda here?
Well, a look through the phrases that crop up this 'denial' story gives a clue:
US backlash over the release of Lockerbie bomber.
There was outrage in the US when the Scottish Government allowed Abdelbaset al-Megrahi to return to Libya.
everyone the company had spoken to in the US felt that a serious mistake was made in releasing Megrahi, who is terminally ill.
Mr Wilson said the firm had worries about the US market's response to the release of Megrahi.
A large number of the 270 people killed in the bombing were American.
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I wonder if anyone will ask Mark Hogarth the name of the individual at Harris Tweed who supplied him with the misinformation that led to the headlines and denials?
The BBC of course have embraced the story with relish and used the denial in order to frame the same 'backlash' claptrap that they have been peddling for weeks now.
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Just received this joke email from a friend:
Economics and how it affects others.
21 Economic Models Explained.
SOCIALISM
You have 2 cows.
You give one to your neighbour.
COMMUNISM
You have 2 cows.
The State takes both and gives you some milk.
FASCISM
You have 2 cows.
The State takes both and sells you some milk.
NAZISM
You have 2 cows.
The State takes both and shoots you.
BUREAUCRATISM
You have 2 cows.
The State takes both, shoots one, milks the other, and then throws the milk away.
TRADITIONAL CAPITALISM
You have two cows.
You sell one and buy a bull.
Your herd multiplies, and the economy grows.
You sell them and retire on the income.
SURREALISM
You have two giraffes.
The government requires you to take harmonica lessons.
AN AMERICAN CORPORATION
You have two cows.
You sell one, and force the other to produce the milk of four cows.
Later, you hire a consultant to analyze why the cow has dropped dead.
ROYAL BANK OF SCOTLAND VENTURE CAPITALISM
You have two cows. You sell three of them to your publicly listed company, using letters of credit opened by your brother-in-law at the bank, then execute a debt/equity swap with an associated general offer so that you get all four cows back, with a tax exemption for five cows.
The milk rights of the six cows are transferred via an intermediary to a Cayman Island Company secretly owned by the majority shareholder who sells the rights to all seven cows back to your listed company.
The annual report says the company owns eight cows, with an option on one more.
You sell one cow to buy a new president of the United States, leaving you with nine cows.
No balance sheet provided with the release. The public then buys your bull.
A FRENCH CORPORATION
You have two cows.
You go on strike, organize a riot, and block the roads, because you want three cows.
A JAPANESE CORPORATION
You have two cows.
You redesign them so they are one-tenth the size of an ordinary cow and produce twenty times the milk. You then create a clever cow cartoon image called 'Cowkimon' and market it worldwide.
A GERMAN CORPORATION
You have two cows.
You re-engineer them so they live for 100 years, eat once a month, and milk themselves.
AN ITALIAN CORPORATION
You have two cows, but you don't know where they are.
You decide to have lunch.
A RUSSIAN CORPORATION
You have two cows.
You count them and learn you have five cows.
You count them again and learn you have 42 cows.
You count them again and learn you have 2 cows.
You stop counting cows and open another bottle of vodka.
A SWISS CORPORATION
You have 5000 cows. None of them belong to you.
You charge the owners for storing them.
A CHINESE CORPORATION
You have two cows.
You have 300 people milking them.
You claim that you have full employment, and high bovine productivity.
You arrest the newsman who reported the real situation.
AN INDIAN CORPORATION
You have two cows.
You worship them.
A BRITISH CORPORATION
You have two cows.
Both are mad.
AN IRAQI CORPORATION
Everyone thinks you have lots of cows.
You tell them that you have none.
No-one believes you, so they bomb the c"*p out of you and invade your country. You still have no cows, but at least you are now a Democracy.
AN AUSTRALIAN CORPORATION
You have two cows.
Business seems pretty good.
You close the office and go for a few beers to celebrate.
A NEW ZEALAND CORPORATION
You have two cows.
The one on the left looks very attractive.
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#375. At 5:58pm on 14 Sep 2009, northhighlander wrote:
Countries buy munitions and armaments from other countries and have bases in other countries all over the world. I should know. The US is the biggest seller of munitions in the world.
That countries only buy "within house" is crazy to even suggest.
You do NOT know that there would be "no aircraft carrier or two, several frigates, trident submarines" built. If Scotland presented the best market for buying them, OF COURSE other countries would buy them.
The idea that England might not maintain bases in Scotland just doesn't even make sense. Countries DO maintain bases in other nations. Don't be daft.
Whether this is the best use for the resources and what would happen, I don't think anyone knows. Whether Scotland would WANT to sell munitions to the rest of the world or make bases AVAILABLE might be another question. But saying it isn't a possibility is just plain not true.
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For the benefit of the northern outpost poster. MORAY ok.
Lossiemouth is the only airfield in the UK which remains open when all others are shut due to inclement weather and its lengthened runways can handle Jumbo Jets and is a designated emergency landing area for all aircraft. Thats called an asset in Scotland's favour in my book.
Re aircraft carriers UK plc is bankrupt and they are highly likely to be the last if they ever get built.
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# 375 northhighlander
Exactly how many aircraft carriers are currently being built in Scotland?
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Here is an example of quickly unionist propaganda can spread round the globe in the digital age.
http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/world/scottish-firm-tries-to-pull-wool-over-us-eyes-20090914-fnxm.html
Does no newspaper have journalists who check a story before they print it?
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£3,000,000,000,000
Bread and water rations
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#375 northhighlander
No no. Propaganda is when people make exaggerated claims like "the defence job losses would be huge, Morayshire decimated, Ship building finished on the Clyde"
Evidence is when people quote (and source) correct data.
Post independence there will be a need to reassess. Guess what? Labour are about to embark on just sach a reassessment.
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There are a lot of details that would surely have to be negotiated in a separation as with any "divorce" but I find it highly unlikely that England (or UK they'd still be since I suppose since they'd still have Wales and NI) would in effect "cut off its nose to spite its face" and declare it wouldn't use needed bases or buy from Scotland because they were mad at Scotland for leaving.
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379. Online_Ed
Story author Auslan Cramb
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This Englishman worked in the defence industry for over two decades and know something of various military assets located in Scotland.
In fact my first visit to Scotland was on military business.
Unless an independent Scottish Government barred us English from using those assets, it is highly unlikely that military assets built up, in some cases over many decades, would be discarded.
Actually, it is inconceivable and to suggest otherwise is just crude scaremongering.
Anyway, England and Scotland will be part of the EU, which is slowly building its own integrated military capability and all member countries will co-operate in this endeavour as your own excellent George Robertson (NATO) has pointed out.
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Ouch. My emails may have scorched a few eyes on that story. The level of reporting was execrable. And it's always amusing to point out I'm American emailing from a US email address. I suggest they help me FIND some of this supposed backlash.
It doesn't exist. Sure the grief-stricken families care. Some politicians use it for political points (shamefully). But backlash? Get real. The few Americans who were paying attention have long since stopped.
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# 380 gedguy2 - stop it I'm sore laughing
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By the way, how DOES one send feedback to BBC?
"DE-SCOTTIFY" That is one of the worst headlines I have ever seen in some really stupid newspapers. In the BBC, it is inexcusable. Not to mention the terrible level of reporting.
WHY didn't they talk to a REAL Harris Tweed executive before publishing the story, pray tell? Do they hire these people out of grade school or what?
It is truly a shamefully low level of reporting. It would have embarressed the old days of Hurst yellow journalism.
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# 389 JohnConstable
It would be finacially stupid for Scoptland not to lease bases out to the English if the English still wishes to keep some of the bases. If not, I'm sure the USA, Russians, French, Germans etc might be interested. The English government would know this and come to some sort of deal. As to the nuclear subs, I can't see Scotland in its first year of independence telling the English to get the subs out immediately. It would seem more friendly of the Scottish governemnt to allow the English a few years until they have another place to put them and charge them handsomely for allowing them to stay.
Everything else is just scaremongering, as you mentioned.
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# 376 Gedguy2
Brian Wilson this is the ex nat turned nat basher and hit man for Liebore? He turns up and suddenly Harris Tweed is now used as a weapon to bash the nats again. Odd that eh?
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# 391 Robabody
Sorry. ;-)
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388 cynicalHighlander wrote:
Story author Auslan Cramb
Is it worthwhile contacting this person?
Incidently, anyone trying to complain to the PCC over the rash of fictitious stories in the press aimed at the SNP will now receive short shrift. The PCC will now NOT entertain a complaint unless the story is about the complainer.
Twice in the last month I have complained about articles that are so btalantly untrue as to be comical, both times the PCC have refused to consider the complaint.
We all know that the SNP cannot be seen to complain about the press - electoral suicide. It means therefore that people like David Maddox et al can print whatever they want with absolute impunity.
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# 392 JRMacClure
http://www.bbc.co.uk/feedback/
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#392 JRMacClure
Auslan Cramb is an author as well as a journalist. His politics will be clear from this synopsis of his book "Who owns Scotland?"
"Landowners have had a huge influence on Scotland. The castles, mansions, roads, churches and harbours they have built and the woodlands they created still survive in many parts of the country. In a bygone age, clan chiefs enjoyed unswerving loyalty from their followers and lairds had their own courts with the power to hang those who broke the law on their land. Today, the landowner's power is diminished and the chieftain's link with his people is lost, but many old families continue to cling to vast estate. The traditional lairds have been joined in the ownership of Scotland by foreign businessmen and aristocrats, and by rock stars, pension funds and environment groups. 80 per cent of Scotland is still governed by lairds of one kind or another, whose motives are often less than altruistic. In WHO OWNS SCOTLAND NOW?, Auslan Cramb raises important questions. Should areas containing internationally important species and habitats be sold to the highest bidder? Should crofting estates be priced beyond the means of the local community? Should vast areas of be treated as occasional homes and managed, often to the detriment of the environment, for deerstalking, grouse-shooting and salmon fishing?"
"Oddly" those ar very similar interests to ex journalist, ex Labour Minister, and Harris Tweed Hebrides chairman Brian Wilson (who, I think is a pal of Cramb's).
No need to look far for the origin of the story, I think.
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# 394 Robabody
Surely you are not suggesting that the BBC Scotland news department is only picking spokespersons that suit their politically motivated agenda? I cannot believe for one second that the BBC would allow such an atrocious lack investigative journalism in their department. After all, this is the BBC we are talking about here.
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396. Online_Ed
"Is it worthwhile contacting this person?"
Journalisted
They supply 21 news outlets (which includes BBC) with journalists stories now whether they are more interested in the truth or money, I would surmise the later will take precedence.
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398. At 8:47pm on 14 Sep 2009, oldnat wrote:
I thought Ian Mackenzie was the chief executive of Harris Tweed. He doesn't seem to agree and seems less than happy with what's been published.
If Mr. Wilson is behind the story, he didn't care to be quoted on it.
Incidentally, those seem to me to be valid questions at least to be asked. Just because someone doesn't use a home all year round (I happen to own a home in Scotland) doesn't make them bad people, but it shouldn't be to the detriment of the community and wildlife species and habitat do need to be protected.
I even agree that there still are "lairds" of one kind or another although Mr. Cramb and I might disagree on who they are. I'd look to multinational corporations for the REAL lairds these days.
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Re 387
If Scotland were Independent why would the Rest of the UK build ships on the Clyde? Why not elsewhere in the UK and support their own workforce?
Oldnat is quite correct in pointing out that the UK government are about to review all spending commitments. So they should. However there have always been arguments in favour of less airbases in the UK, you must remember the geographical size of the UK, so why would the remainder of the UK want to keep a Scots base within 400 miles of another in the UK?
It would not be about spite, it would be about self preservation, about looking after their own people.
Just as we won't want to dock our ships in Devonport, I would imagine.
I am not quite sure who cynical Highlander expects to land at Lossie if there is no RAF precence, Ryan-air perhaps?
I go back to my point, what type of Defence force will we have? Becasue if it does resemble something like Ireland has then we will have no where near the same number of jobs.
this can be dressed up in any way you like but it is blindingly obvious to most.
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Re 393 Gedguy
You would consider sub-contracting national security to the highest bidder?
Excellent Strategy, why not include Iran or Libya especially with our new friendship, on your list of potential suitors? Just to show how we are independent.
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Re 389
Well the asset built up over years in benbecula doesn't seem to be worth much, especially given its unique attributes.
Your arguments may have been correct in times of plenty, but the forces are due for a share of cost cutting. It wouldn't take a genius to see a Tory defence secretary closing Scottish assets to save money.
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389. JohnConstable
"Anyway, England and Scotland will be part of the EU, which is slowly building its own integrated military capability and all member countries will co-operate in this endeavour as your own excellent George Robertson (NATO) has pointed out.
"
John - You were doing so well till the last sentence.
George Robertson was a Labour placeman who failed to look after his members interests as a union official in the whisky industry, failed to look after his constituents intersts as an MP but managed to look after his own interests very well by toeing the line and getting Buggin's turn as a NATO big-wig. There are many words to describe him but "our own" and "excellent" are not amongst them.
IIRC another son of the manse with vaguely island connections.
What is it with the west-coast clergy? How could they not have embraced celibacy like the other mob? Scotland would have thanked them for it.
Thank you for your contributions, it is good to hear an alternative viewpoint. Cloughie was one of my heroes too.
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Ha. Whether he'll pay the slightest attention or not, I had a word or two to say about Mr. Cramb about the poor level of his journalism although he may not be responsible for that STUPID headline. Who they heck WROTE that? They should be fired for outright incompetence. Seriously. That is one of the worst, most illiterate headlines I've ever had the misfortune to see foisted on the reading public.
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#402.
I go back to my point, what type of Defence force will we have? Becasue if it does resemble something like Ireland has then we will have no where near the same number of jobs.
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And I suppose the US doesn't use Irish fields which affects employment.
Let me answer that one: YES, we do.
And the UK wouldn't save money buy having to invest and build new facilities for ship building.
Pretending that other countries wouldn't use present facilities is exactly that. Which ones? After the way the US and the UK have behaved, the Scottish government MIGHT decide they should do business with Libya.
I notice the UK is pretty freely sending them armament AND training the Libyans how to us them. WHY NOT Scotland? Hypocrisy much in that argument?
It's moral for the UK but if Scotland did it, it would be the end of the world!
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defence is the only part of independence that is a bit of a worry. nothing has really been discussed bar removing nuclear weapons from the clyde.
i mistrust any alliance. look at the falklands. an invasion of sovreign territory belonging to a member of NATO, and where was everyone?
defene is an issue because a lot of jobs depend on them. if i'm right in thinking we have two naval bases, two major raf bases and a few army training camps and barracks. plus mod in glasgow. a lot of civilian jobs are dependant on these, as well as the local economies.
to me some people are too focused on nuclear weapons and others want a white flag, without realising we have to guard our oilfields and fishing grounds.
chavez in venzuala can afford a few bits of hardware so there is no reason why scotland could not afford a small but well equipped military force.
as for stories kicking about, i heard the daily mail was wittering on anout scotland not getting entry into europe.....or was that just the football.....
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407. JRMacClure
I think its called a terminal case of "The Cringe Factor" as the apron cord is made of fear. What if!
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NorthHighlander:
"I go back to my point, what type of Defence force will we have? Becasue if it does resemble something like Ireland has then we will have no where near the same number of jobs."
Has the, "Scotland will have the same military capabilities as Ireland." myth been going around for so long, that individuals believe we will be an insolated country in the north west of Europe with a small defence force?
I have not heard or seen information to suggest this myth may actually be true. However I will suggest you look at Irelands defence budget compared to other country's within Europe (our size, of course) because Ireland has quite a low defence budget while the SNP proposes a budget within several billion pounds.
Besides a war can not be won through defence alone, you'll eventually have to launch your own invasion, or something to stop your enemies from attacking. So I would be disappointed to discover that Scotland would honestly believe that the defence of our country ends and starts at our borders.
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Newsnet Scotland now has a website to compliment the monthly newsletter.
The website will feature occasional articles from each edition along with the usual comment facility. I don't expect anywhere near the amount of traffic Brain Taylor attracts here but anyone who is interested can view the site by clicking HERE.
Incidently, the article I've published from this months edition relates to the BBC's coverage of the Megrahi decision.
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#408. At 9:42pm on 14 Sep 2009, barbarian9 wrote:
defence is the only part of independence that is a bit of a worry. nothing has really been discussed bar removing nuclear weapons from the clyde.
i mistrust any alliance. look at the falklands. an invasion of sovreign territory belonging to a member of NATO, and where was everyone?
defene is an issue because a lot of jobs depend on them. if i'm right in thinking we have two naval bases, two major raf bases and a few army training camps and barracks. plus mod in glasgow. a lot of civilian jobs are dependant on these, as well as the local economies.
to me some people are too focused on nuclear weapons and others want a white flag, without realising we have to guard our oilfields and fishing grounds.
chavez in venzuala can afford a few bits of hardware so there is no reason why scotland could not afford a small but well equipped military force.
as for stories kicking about, i heard the daily mail was wittering on anout scotland not getting entry into europe.....or was that just the football.....
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Now, now. Your good ally the US gave you intelligence--when it suited us. On the other hand, I haven't seen anyone invade either Ireland or Norway--both with at least some similarities to what an independent Scotland might be like. (What kind of military DOES Norway have--I really don't know)
You're right that a discussion of defense, a realistic one, would seem reasonable as part of a decision about whether or not Scotland should be independent.
I saw that Daily Mail article which no one seems to have picked up. It looked pretty silly to me. "It wouldn't be automatic." Well, probably not. I imagine it would have to be discussed and even negotiated. A bit too dim witted even for most of the inane coverage perhaps?
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410. Thomas_Porter
"Besides a war can not be won through defence alone, you'll eventually have to launch your own invasion, or something to stop your enemies from attacking. So I would be disappointed to discover that Scotland would honestly believe that the defence of our country ends and starts at our borders."
Why do people go to war? To get something that they need for their existence, lifestyle/greed.
Basic needs: Water, Food and energy.
Why does Scotland need to go to war it doesn't and we are too small to make it worthwhile for anyone who wishes to invade as they will spend more than they will ever get back.
We are resource rich for our population but our size will not justify any sort of invasion.
All we need to defend are our fishing grounds as they will become far more valuable than the declining oil fields.
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#410 Now, Thomas, I really do doubt that England would invade. Admittedly the Plantagenets and the Tudors gave England a miserable reputation for being willing to invade neighbors at the slightest opportunity. But I really do think they've outgrown the tendency. Who else might invade? Norway? Denmark? Ireland?
Ok. The US might invade. I admit it. We might invade ANYONE but I don't think that any offensive capabilities you might develop are going to help in that case.
(Oh, God. I wish I were totally joking instead of only somewhat)
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#403 northhighlander
Libya might not be a bad choice. After all their forces are currently being trained by the UK SAS! :-)
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Now, now, you know we can't discuss grown up things like defence. It'll end up with people saying - why can't we ... and why don't we - as if you are not too poor, too wee and too stupid. And we can't have that, as those thoughts might turn to other matters that are reserved like a foreign policy and before you know it people will be saying why not independence and then we can sort it out for ourselves. Well you know you can't as you are too poor, too wee and too stupid. So stop it now!
And by the way just as well as taking away the jobs on the range we're going to double the size of the exclusion zone so we've made off with your fishery too. But we are giving you the chance to store a whole lot of extra nuclear rust buckets that we don't want at Devonport. TTFN.
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northhighlander
Even as a Unionist, I would expect Scots to have an offshore protection force for the oil, gas and fishery assets. A aerial surveilance force would be part of that and where better to base it than the most open airport in the UK?
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It seems the Beeb can run unchallenged and make up titles on anything.
Story Marcus the sheep is dead
"It was made clear that it could be kept as a pet, or sold to go for meat to raise money for the school farm to buy more animals. It was discussed in School Council. Each class had the opportunity to discuss it.
"The following week the children voted by an overwhelming majority for the lamb to be sold for meat."
Our public braodcasters take Pupils 'traumatised' at school lamb slaughter
Obviously the news is written by the amateur dramatics society wing of that institution.
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#412 - "I saw that Daily Mail article which no one seems to have picked up. It looked pretty s