Measuring the Diageo fallout
An intriguing variety of political responses to the news that Diageo is to persist with closing its plants in Kilmarnock and Port Dundas, Glasgow.
This closure has gained exceptional salience in part because of the iconic nature of the brand involved, Johnnie Walker - but also because of the sharp partisan conflict in the town of Kilmarnock.
Responding to the news today, the SNP's John Swinney and others voiced disappointment that an alternative proposal had failed to sway the company.
Labour's Iain Gray said the workforce had been "let down" by SNP Ministers.
For the Tories, Annabel Goldie said the Scottish and UK Governments must stop squabbling, reminding us that there was new investment planned by the company in Fife.
And Tavish Scott of the Liberal Democrats said that a political blame game would not bring one single job back.
As sometimes happens in partisan politics, each point has legitimacy, each point is worthy of consideration. (NB: for the avoidance of doubt, "legitimate" does not mean inherently right, just not intrinsically wrong. Worth, in short, a look.)
It is conceivable, as many argue, that the company was intent on cutting costs, has found no serious option on offer - and has paid minimal attention to history and workforce loyalty.
However, without indulging in a blame game, it is legitimate to ask whether enough was done to dissuade Diageo.
Such questions should be moderately drafted and temperately proffered. Equally, Ministers are adamant they can address such inquiries - and, again, should do so in a controlled fashion. Well, we can but hope.
Understandable partisan concerns must come second to anxiety for the workforce and the need to preserve Scotland's reputation as a place where business motivations are understood. Interrogated, yes. Challenged, yes. But respected.
The Tories are right to point to the jobs on offer in Fife - although, of course, that does nothing to placate those now facing the dole queue at the affected sites.
The LibDems are equally right to note that partisan squabbling - as opposed to dignified scrutiny - will provide nothing. My sympathy to those who are now more worried than ever for their future.
I'm 
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~24~RS~)
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"Labour's Iain Gray said the workforce had been "let down" by SNP Ministers."
Say it all really, the man is either a compulsive liar or an imbecile.
Johnnie Walker away from Kilmarnock will not be Johnnie Walker, and all Mr Gray can come up with is his usual incompetent sound-bite.
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Geez Brian, are you stating that both the SNP and Labour are wrong to squabble about this? Maybe you can point out where the SNP are, actually, squabbling.
Apart from that this is a well written piece. It is going to be interesting to see what the other posters think. ;-)
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I think Diageo will be made to rue this decision.
I see Mr Gray has found it impossible to hide his delight.
I would be very grateful for a complete list of all diageo's products...for obvious reasons.
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I would have felt more comfortable if the SNP had offered the same 'cash' incentives to NCR in Dundee and Bausch & Laum in Livingston, to name just two of the businesses that have been lost to Scotland.
Surely the loss of hundreds of jobs in the East of the country is just as devastating as those in the West?
The SNP did not think this through, thus making a pig's ear out of this situation. Ooops, should not mention pigs, reminded me of the troughs all MPs and MSPs have been supping from re the expenses fiasco!
One last thought on the binge drinking problem, will the Scottish Parliament be stopping the cheap booze they can buy in their bar??? Just a thought...
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I'd be intrigued by the "legitimacy" Mr Taylor ascribes to Mr Gray's 'the workforce had been "let down" by SNP Ministers'
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The days when a bit of money whether it was in a brown envelope or in the form of a grant is over, attempting to placate or turnover a management decision will not work.
This type of management decision in this day and age will never be taken lightly, in this case Diageo had pondered long and hard whether it was desirable to start and put all their eggs in one basket. As in the development at Leven, of course if they manage to put a basket case in charge of the Leven plant well, there will be plenty to say hell mend them.
On the other hand Diageo could have done as others in Scotland have done, taken the monies offered and built a white elephant in Kilmarnock and run away in two years, just how many companies have done this over the past twenty years with the tax payer having no recourse?
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# 791 sneckedagain on 'legislative programme'
Does this policeman have substantive proof, as in documents or was in the room when this was discussed by those how allegedly planted the disputed evidence, because if he doesn't then it is just hearsay which, I imagine, would not be allowed into an appeal.
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# 3. astonishedII
Diageo is the holding company for some of the most recognizable alcohol brands, including:[6]
Beer: Guinness, Tusker, Smithwick's, Red Stripe, Harp Lager, Kilkenny, Kaliber (non alcoholic)
Scotch whisky: Johnnie Walker, Justerini & Brooks (J&B), Bell's, Black & White, Caol Ila, Vat 69, Oban, Talisker, Lagavulin, Glen Ord, Glenkinchie, Dalwhinnie, Cragganmore
Baijiu: Shui Jing Fang
Vodka: Smirnoff (Smirnov in Russia), Cîroc, Silent Sam, Popov, Ketel One
Gin: Gordon's, Tanqueray, Gilbey's, Booth's
Rum: Captain Morgan, Bundaberg, Pampero, Myers'
Bourbon: Bulleit
Canadian whisky: Crown Royal, Seagram's, Black Velvet
Irish whiskey: Bushmills
Tennessee whiskey: George Dickel
Tequila: Don Julio, José Cuervo
Schnapps: Black Haus, Goldschläger, Rumple Minze
Mixed drinks: Archers, Pimm's, TGI Friday's
Liqueur: Baileys, Sheridans, Yukon Jack, Godiva's
Wines: Sterling Vineyards, Piat d'Or, Barton & Guestier, Beaulieu Vineyard, Blossom Hill, Canoe Ridge Vineyard, Acacia, Chalone, Provenance, and Rosenblum.
Obviously it would do us no good to 'boycott' any Scottish products as we would just be shooting ourselves in the foot.
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"I see Mr Gray has found it impossible to hide his delight." - astonishedII.
Says it all, really.
There is no bad news that he won't jump on for petty party advantage?
If, as Gray claims, Scots still don't know who he is, it can hardly be for his lack of zeal in promoting himself as a cheap political opportunist.
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I posted this on Brians last blog when I thought he had gone on another holiday. It is more relevant to this blog.
In all the comments about Diageo in the following article one really stood out for me.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/epic/dge/6162148/Diageo-rejects-unworkable-plan-to-save-Johnnie-Walker-whisky-jobs.html
However, Tavish Scott, the Scottish Liberal Democrat leader, said: "There's no point in a political blame game, because that won't bring one job back.
"Everyone needs to pull together to help those who have lost their job today get back into work as quickly as possible.
Is it possible that Tavish having seen the torys reverting to the nasty Thatcherite party a la Forsyth and any smear will do bella, and Labour continuing to show how shallow and devoid of ideas they are, is thinking that there might be political capitol to be gained by fighting for the people of Scotland, and not fighting the SNP at every turn?
Could the Lib Dems be doing some grown up thinking for a change?
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Just the comment one would have expected from the grey man. Never lets us down.
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Can anyone advise me as to what Mr Gray said he would have done if he was First Minister
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Brian,
‘However, without indulging in a blame game, it is legitimate to ask whether enough was done to dissuade Diageo.’
When is enough ever enough for some companies?
The brainless comment from Iain Gray says it all. If mediocrity is his goal he still has a mountain to climb.
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Am I wrong or did Jim Murphy have a go at trying to save those jobs as well?
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What is fundamentally more sustainable about a plant in Fife as opposed to one in Kilmarnock ... that is what Diageo must answer if they want to be taken seriously.
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Brian seems to be the ultimate fence sitter, the BBC's mugwump.
How can Gray blame the SNP when it was a cross party effort including the former defence secretary Mr Browne? Gray is not reluctant to spin a lie.
This is what we get for allowing foreign interests to buy up Scottish businesses.
And our Mr McMillan says let them (Diageo) get on with it.
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According to the Telegraph Iain Gra said: "I am deeply disappointed that John Swinney has been unable to bring forward a plan capable of convincing Diageo to save these jobs."
He has actually. It's called independence under which he could reduce corporation tax and reshape the entire tax system to make it more business friendly.
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"For the Tories, Annabel Goldie said the Scottish and UK Governments must stop squabbling, reminding us that there was new investment planned by the company in Fife."
Well said Brian, the Scottish Conservatives care about the 400 hundred jobs opening up in fife. These will offer opportunities to countless youngsters.
Let Labour and SNP play politics over this, but we shall defend the right of fife folk to get 400 new jobs opened up in their locality. Afterall why should their employment prospects be any less valuable?
10. At 3:59pm on 09 Sep 2009, dubbieside
"Is it possible that Tavish having seen the torys reverting to the nasty Thatcherite party a la Forsyth and any smear will do bella"
We are hardly lacking in compassion. We pushed the £60 million town centre regeneration fund, we are defending the employment prospects of those fife folk. We care, we are honest, and we are hardly 'thatcherite'.
You are right to argue that Goldie slipped up over the latest FM questions, or that you perhaps do not like our education reform proposals. But to argue that these isolated factors constitute a return to the dark days of cold thatcherism is a step too far from truth.
How selective you are in your facts today!
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# 12 Caledonian54
'Can anyone advise me as to what Mr Gray said he would have done if he was First Minister'
Stuck his head in a bucket of sand until told what to do by central control (Brown).
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Brian
It's a shame you didn't look a bit more at Labour's claim that the workers had been let down by the SNP.
If the pocket money doesn't stretch to the Beano and the Dandy are you let down that you can't have both. If the pocket money the SNP get from Westminster isn't enough to make it worth Diageo's while, is it the SNP's fault?
Were not the efforts of those trying to reverse Diageo's decision not cross-party? Have the workers not been let down by Labour, the unions, the council and all of their fellow workers who joined in the attempt?
Is this not just another petty political point scoring after the decision is made by Labour in the same way that Elmer wouldn't have released al-Megrahi as soon as Kenny made his announcement? It may be legitimate and even legal but it does put a question over whether the Unionists dare to bring down the First Minister if Elmer is the alternative.
There's nothing wrong with Auntie Bella trying to look on the bright side; if you have the shadow of Lord F as Scottish Sectertary looming over you everything else has to be on the bright side. And as for Tavish saying something sensible ... I'm off to lie down in a darkened room.
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Diageo never had any intention of listening to any alternative proposals for saving Kilmarnock and Port Dundas, they have only paid lip service to the talks in an attempt to look like the 'good corporate citizen' they claim to be. I for one will never buy another Diageo product as I am sickened by their decision as it was borne out of pure greed not necessity. Diageo have turned a blind eye to the devastation that they are about to bring to hundreds of loyal workers, who incidentally took unpaid leave earlier this year to help an employer who has made BILLIONS in profit. Shame on Diageo and on Paul Walsh.
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I reckon Gordon Brown will become embroiled in this somehow!
He is from Fife, after all.
And, Westminster gets all the tax from these companies, and from the sale of all its products anyway, doesn't it???
Terrible about the loss of jobs.
Pity Ian Gray would rather use this to take a swipe at our Government, rather than trying to provide some positive input to resolve the issue.
Useless Labour once again.
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Very sad news indeed, here's hoping the powers that be can provide real help to those affected in Killie and Glasgow, real help being assistance in setting up new and sustainable sources of employment rather than any short-term sticking plasters. I agree with the above posters - Iain Gray's cheap insults at this time show little concern for the workers. What precisely would he have done differently if (God forfend) he was FM?
The 400 jobs for Leven remind me a bit of carbon offsetting, the idea being that it's fine to devastate one area as long as you plant a few trees half way around the world. Not sure that's as logically rigorous as some would have us believe.
And one final thought regarding Leven: I wonder what risk assessment Diageo have done with regard to the Forth Road Bridge...if it closes in a few years due to the rusting cables, and no replacement bridge has been Forthcoming(!), Leven might not be the wonderful location they thought it to be...?
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20. At 4:35pm on 09 Sep 2009, handclapping
"There's nothing wrong with Auntie Bella trying to look on the bright side; if you have the shadow of Lord F as Scottish Sectertary looming over you everything else has to be on the bright side"
Good sentiments my friend. Well said.
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#18. At 4:30pm on 09 Sep 2009, deanthetory wrote:
"For the Tories, Annabel Goldie said the Scottish and UK Governments must stop squabbling, reminding us that there was new investment planned by the company in Fife."
Well said Brian, the Scottish Conservatives care about the 400 hundred jobs opening up in fife. These will offer opportunities to countless youngsters.
------------
So they care MORE about those 400 hundred jobs opening up in Fife than the NINE HUNDRED LOST elsewhere in Scotland?
An interesting trade-off.
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As ever, Brian Taylor fails to point out that it is Labour who are indulging in this 'blame game', 'partisan politics' or 'partisan squabbling'. Goldie, sadly, continues her fall from grace by fabricating a non existant squabble.
As sometimes happens in partisan politics, each point has legitimacy
In what way is John Swinney's response partisan Brian - seriously, in what way? The alternative proposal had cross party input and support.
Scottish Labour Leader Iain Gray said Diageo staff had been "let down by the SNP Government".
Instead of pointing out the culprits, we again see a piece that tries to suggest that the SNP are equally to blame.
Annabel Goldie said the Scottish and UK Governments must stop squabbling
To print the views of the opposition is appropriate, but to completely fail to analyse the charges and allegations of Gray and Goldie means that Brian has once again failed in his duty to inform.
How ridiculous must these claims become before Brian actually acknowledges that they are totally without foundation?
However, without indulging in a blame game, it is legitimate to ask whether enough was done to dissuade Diageo.
Again, who is indulging in a blame game Brian - let the viewers and readers know please!!
As far as whether enough was done, perhaps you can explain the reasoning behind this question or are you now simply adopting the Labour default stance of blaming the SNP?
Such questions should be moderately drafted and temperately proffered. Equally, Ministers are adamant they can address such inquiries - and, again, should do so in a controlled fashion. Well, we can but hope.
Such questions? You have only asked one and it is a veiled criticism of the SNP's performance.
Understandable partisan concerns...
Again Brian, who from?
Until we start to see real objective analysis then your credibility and professionalism will continue to be questioned.
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"Labour's Iain Gray said the workforce had been "let down" by SNP Ministers." & "each point has legitimacy, each point is worthy of consideration".................and yet Brian you do not consider what Ian Gray said.
Can we take it Brian that you consider Iain Gray to be illegitimate?
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The emerging story in Scottish politics now is surely the metamorphasis of Anabelle Goldie from one of Holyroods most effective politicians to peddler of cheap smears and baseless accusations.
Now, any serious political journalist would already have noticed this quite dramatic change - Robbie Dinwoodie already has. However, here we see BBC Scotland's political editor apparently not noticing.
deanthetory is well within his rights to dress up Goldies accusations anyway he likes - he is a tory after all. However, how someone with the experience of Taylor can pretend not to even notice is incredible.
He is either completely inept or he has indeed noticed and is doing another 'Chisholm'.
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27. minuend A good point well made :oD I might opt for a synonym of "illegitimate" mind you...
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I listened to radio Scotland report this on the way home, and they seemed to attack the Scottish government for trying to save the jobs, says it all really. There is now no doubt at all that is BBC Scotland policy to attack the SNP government at every opportunity, fair enough if thats their choice but I will be seeking a refund of my licence fee, I have no desire to subsidise the Labour party who once more offer only negativity, keep it up lads you are doing wonders for the independence cause.
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Nice little piece placed straight into the main Scottish news section by the ever impartial BBC:
Africa MPs cheer Lockerbie bomber
He was infact given a standing ovation - not cheered. They could of course have stated that Megrahi receives standing ovation but that would have had less impact than using Lockerbie bomber and cheered.
Lockerbie bomber Abdelbaset Ali al-Megrahi has made his first public appearance since receiving a hero's welcome on his return to Libya.
This is simply untrue, the Lockerbie bomber did not receive a hero's welcome. A man Libyan's believed innocent was warmly welcomed home by members of his extended tribe, they do not believe he was responsible for planting the bomb - nor increasingly do many in the West.
Our reporter says it seemed a carefully orchestrated event intended to send a signal to the Scottish, British and US governments.
How carefully orchestrated does it need to be for one nurse to wheel a dying man into a hall in the hospital where he is receiving treatment?
What message does the journalist believe was being conveyed? - That Megrahi is innocent perhaps and that African delegates believe this as well?
Watch newssniffer to see of if the tone of this article changes.
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Diageo were never going to change their minds on the closures. It is bad enough to be one of the people about to be made redundant,as I am,but even worse to know that the tax man will grab a huge chunk of my redundancy cheque. As an over 50 and having been with the company for over 35 years,what now?
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In a way I feel sorry for Brian because, no matter what he writes, it is going to be taken apart and analysed by the posters. He has pointed out that there is party point making going on (we all know that it is the Labour party doing this and I suspect that Brian knows this as well). So, we have Brian telling off the Labour party members (as if) without actually mentioning them. It is sad, though, that Aunty Bella has demeaned herself by trying to point the finger at the SNP when we can all see that it was Labour who are guilty of this. Aunty Bella you have plummeted in my esteem.
You would think that a General Election or By-Election is happening soon. Oops, so it is.
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The comments from Gray,Goldie and Tavish Scott realy make you wonder if they have the slightest clue as to how the people in Kilmarnock and Glasgow are feeling right now. I think not as between the three of them they have voted in the Scottish parliament to plough Billions into Edinburgh in the form of trams which were neither required or wanted and then they have the nerve to spout off with their usual propagand about the SNP. I was born in Kilmarnock and have watched many industries being sold off , Massey Ferguson,Shanks,BMK to mention but a few. These were all closed under a rotting system of Tory and labour governmnets in power at Westmister.
To the people of Killie and Port Dundas I realy feel for you all but bear this thought in mind, the Scottish government have done everything possible to try and save your jobs against all the criticism from the above mentioned three people. Independence must now be an option placed before the Scottish people to allow us to control our own financial future.
Labour in Scotland are a dead issue and that must never be forgotten.
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#18 Deanthetory wrote: "the Scottish Conservatives care about the 400 hundred jobs opening up in fife. These will offer opportunities to countless youngsters."
Err... since when does 400 jobs equate to opportunities for "countless" youngsters, or do you need to take your boots off to count beyond 10 :-))
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deanthetory re 18
Hardly lacking in compassion! A 60 million town center fund shows compassion! How exactly does it do that? A reasonable political outcome maybe, but compassion!
How are the torys defending the job prospects in Fife? The 400 jobs were coming to Fife no matter what the torys, or any other party, said or did. Still a net loss of 500 jobs.
Hardly Thatcherite! Do me a favor, Bella working hard for two years at trying to present a human face to the torys, then twice in two weeks unfounded smears at FMQT. Forsyths name leaked to Scotland on Sunday as Camerons unelected Scottish Secretary of State. Then Forsyths school plans that were laughed at by the electorate in 1997 when they were his flagship policy suddenly being revived just after he is floated as the next SOS.
Far from being "isolated factors" these are all the classic signs that the toxic torys think that we have all forgotten just how bad Scotland was treated by Thatcher and her cronies, and now is the time for them to take the Mr Nice Guy hat off and revert to type.
The Thatcherites may think that just because Scotland suffered badly under Blair and Brown we will forget it was even worse when they were around. Were was Goldie when Scotlands heavy industry was decimated by Thatcher? Hiding behind Forsyth maybe?
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Whatever happened to Team Scotland that Mr Murphy was banging on about? Is this how a responsible partner reacts when the going gets tough – blame the other team members?
Would it have be beyond Iain Gray to have given a statesman like reply something along the lines of “The Scottish and UK governments along with trade unions and local government, individuals and other local business and community leaders have tried to change Diageo’s mind by providing alternatives to Diageo’s closure plan. Despite these best efforts Diageo have decided, for business needs, to go ahead with the closure. A decision I’m sure they will live to regret”
Instead we get “the workforce had been "let down" by SNP Ministers” well done Iain and it's worthwhile remembering what Mr Shakespeare wrote mate “some are born great, some achieve greatness and some have greatness thrust upon them” – “Tube” springs to mind as an potential substitute.
Never mind though, as Diageo moves the jobs to Leven and continues its unrestricted race to the bottom of the bottom line, you’ll be able to congratulate the Prime Minister for securing jobs for Fife
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#32. At 5:42pm on 09 Sep 2009, weeeasy wrote:
Diageo were never going to change their minds on the closures. It is bad enough to be one of the people about to be made redundant,as I am,but even worse to know that the tax man will grab a huge chunk of my redundancy cheque. As an over 50 and having been with the company for over 35 years,what now?
------------------
A horrible situation. I question that any government could have saved the jobs in the face of blatant corporate greed, but what comfort is THAT to the people who are being sacrificed?
I'd say boycott Diego and never buy another one of their products, and believe me as a purchaser of some of their products I've considered it, but wouldn't the ones who would really pay be more workers?
How you punish the corporations who are so ready to sacrifice people treating them no better than a used nose tissue-- They've made billions in profits and write the human beings off. I don't know the solution, but blaming the SNP when I don't see the slightest chance that Labour or the Tories would have been able to do one whit more is absurd and pure cheesy politics.
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Frankly, if I was the CEO of Diageo, I would have had Jim Murphy and Alex Salmond escorted off the premises by security in the full glare of the press that they love so much.
Why? Because both the taxation and minimum pricing policies of both SNP and Labour are deliberately designed to sabotage my industry, destroy jobs and give a grossly unfair advantage to foreign competitors. This country is the only one in the world where local products cost more than imported products. Every other country operates to support their local industries, not Britain or for that matter Scotland where the SNP are as bad as Westminster. Hang your heads in shame, Murphy and Salmond, because you destroyed these jobs.
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# 35 Caledonian54
Good point. Assuming that 'youngsters' are those under 18 I wonder if Dean will retract that statement when we see how many 'youngsters' are actually employed in this 'new' plant?
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Gray is a disgrace.
The SNP government put in a huge effort to save the jobs. To be fair there was cross party support. However, Diageo ONLY care about profits at the expense of their loyal employees.
My sympathies to those who will lose their jobs.
Can someone tell me of an easily obtainable whisky owned by a Scottish company.
Freedom
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The idea that Diageo would have reversed the decision is risible.
How much public money, which could have been spent in generating NEW jobs, has been squandered in allowing politicians to strut about claiming to be of significance - stand up, Iain Gray - when we all know that they are minor irritations to companies with global reach, whose marketing budgets exceed the block grant to the Scottish Government?
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Fingers crossed for a Scotland victory tonight!
Fingers crossed for a Burley sacking by 10am tomorrow!
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#39 Magi
I like your thinking; Salmond's minimum pricing is a fact just because he announced it. So the referendum will happen in just the same way? Oh and there's the wee matter of minimum pricing getting rid of cheapo cider so there's more money available for premium drinks like ... ?
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I remember that the Scottish Government of the day crowed loudly that they had attracted international investment to Scotland, when Johnny Walker was taken over by Diageo.
Diageo have now made a commercial decision to close plants ( ie they were losing and about to start losing money ).
Our Scottish Government then go posturing to save the plant, without providing Diageo with the one thing it really needed - CASH.
Then surprise, surprise ! Diageo re-affirm their plans.
PS I'm glad none of our money was offered to Diageo. If we are to subsidise a commercial enterprise, then Government finance should only be given in exchange for accreditted shares in that company.
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# 39 MagisterIlluminatus
More political rubbish from the master of darkness himself.
I used to manage pubs for several years, only a few years ago, and the death of pubs had been happening for long before this. To try and say that this is due to SNP policies (now the BMA is trying to say the same) and taxation is an obvious sleight of hand. So obvious, in fact, that I'm surprised that you even attempted it. People just don't go to pubs like they used to; lifestyles change. It is more likely to do with computer games than what the SNP are trying to do (stop the drink culture as it is killing our citizens) and what the British Government have always done (taxes for their grand schemes).
So, come off it, you are kidding no one.
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# 41 hadrianswall
The Edrington Group Limited produce a couple of fine single malts called Highland Park (peaty in the extreme) and Macallans (sweet). I wish that I was still a drinker as my taste buds are in overdrive just thinking about those two.
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39. MagisterIlluminatus
"Why? Because both the taxation and minimum pricing policies of both SNP and Labour are deliberately designed to sabotage my industry, destroy jobs and give a grossly unfair advantage to foreign competitors."
This is a corporate capitalist decision were the workers are expendable fodder and no matter how much political posturing these jobs could not be saved, unless it was because of a shortcoming in the lack of local infrastructure. Maybe Thatcher had fulfilled her promise of a direct rail link to the channel tunnel, built with Scottish oil then things might of been different.
"This country is the only one in the world where local products cost more than imported products."
I think thats called excessive treasury tax.
Your venom at the SoS is welcome but don't drag Holyrood MSPs down to his level.
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17. At 4:28pm on 09 Sep 2009, Wee-Scamp wrote:
from what i gather (and of course i may be wrong) diageo do not pay tax in the uk.
we need everyone to get away from the blame game and focus on getting more employment in. not only kilmarnock but other places blighted by job losses.
who do you blame? the snp? scottish enterprise? the customers? the original companies that sold out?
what has happened now cannot be changed. what can change are political parties to work together.
politicians forget they are working for the citizens of scotland, regardless of their political choice. if we cannot get independence after 2010 then all parties must work together. this is the chance to show that holyrood is more mature than westminster.
we've recently lost jobs now in the drink and medical industries. the employees at all levels have skills that must be utilised, rather than stagnating on dole queues.
the scottish government did try, as did the local mps and msps. labour must stop cheap political jibes and show a bit of maturity.
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41. hadrianswall
"Can someone tell me of an easily obtainable whisky owned by a Scottish company."
Who owns our whisky?
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The contrast between the capability, stature and substance of a former Labour leader such as John Smith, and the inept, vacuous posturing of Iain Gray could hardly be greater, and serves as a sad but clear reflection on the free-falling decline of the Labour party in just the past 15 years.
The question
Does Iain believe his semi-skilled, petty-politicking style is ideally tailored to the 'pretendy wee' Parliament in which he finds himself, or is he actually performing at the peak of his abilities???
is surely one for observers and Gray's 'followers' alike to ponder.
Either way, the continued absence of an effective Labour leader at either Westminster or Holyrood can only further hasten that party's impending demise.
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It is something to think about--who owns the distillery that makes the whisky that one drinks. Perhaps a change is called for in spite of my fondness of an Islay-style malt. I never thought about who owned it, I blush to confess. I think a locally owned distillery has a lot to be said for it. But that doesn't mean I've necessarily decided to boycott Diego. I still suspect that punishes the workers more than the corporation, although I'm open to persuasion.
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#51 Dougie
Good point.
#52 JRMacClure
As an impartial observer, do you think Labour's selection and continuation with Elmer Fudd, sorry Iain, um, er, pages up to find it, Gray, as their "Leader" is part of the Unionist strategy of trying to show that we are too poor, too wee and too stupid?
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49. Barbarian
You are wrong. Diageo are an FTSE 100 listed company and pay grotesque levels of tax, excise duty, VAT and National Insurance. They are one of Scotland's major employers and if they decide to walk, and frankly I wouldn't blame them if they did, they would cripple the Scottish economy.
FACT Since the smoking ban was introduced at the behest of Stewart Maxwell SNP MSP, 25 pubs per week have closed in Scotland. That is a minmum of 100 job losses a week, every week.
FACT Since the new Licensing Act was introduced last week, 24 pubs in North Lanarkshire closed that day with a loss of 100 jobs, more pubs are likely to follow throughout Scotland with further job losses.
FACT The proposed new minmum pricing policy is likely to result in more than 5,000 job losses in the first year. Diageo are not the only drinks manufacturer shedding jobs and there will be a lot more to follow and none of these people are going to be voting SNP any time soon.
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Brian
As a cunning observer of the political machinations that dominate our pretendy wee, can you give us the odds on the referendum bill not coming to the vote until after the Westminster General Election? Call-me-Dave up to his eyes in creditors hammering on the door and his Government haemorrhaging money, Labour putting up the posters for the Fight of the Century, Buy your Membership here and the UnLibUnDem wondering if they really are invisible, seems like a good time to call the Unionist's bluff and say no bill, no confidence.
I'm sure the thought of the prospective alternative FM or another election will be so appalling that Alex will have his evil way. Do you think the SNP could be so devious?
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54. MagisterIlluminatus
"FACT Since the new Licensing Act was introduced last week, 24 pubs in North Lanarkshire closed that day with a loss of 100 jobs, more pubs are likely to follow throughout Scotland with further job losses."
Pubs closing at rate of 52 a week as hard-up drinkers shun their local
"Almost 2,400 pubs and bars have vanished from villages and towns in the past 12 months, according to research for the British Beer & Pub Association (BBPA). Local pubs serving small communities have been the worst hit, the association said."
Broon's Westminster are the culprits, are you RE's incarnation who got all his info. from school textbooks.
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And Tavish Scott of the Liberal Democrats said that a political blame game would not bring one single job back.
Allow me Brian;
And Tavish Scott of the (un)Liberal (non)Democrats (should have) said that a political blame game would not bring (al-Megrahi, the 280 victims) back.
Funny how some people apply simple logic to some arguments, yet are incapable of doing it for others.
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From the Times,though for that reason I would hesitate to call it FACT!
"A PARLIAMENTARY inquiry has been launched into the rising number of local pubs that are closing each month.
The All-Party Parliamentary Beer Group (APPBG) will seek to determine why about 26 community pubs are forced to close each month, up from 20 a month in 2000. More than 80 per cent of those pubs are demolished or converted into houses, according to the Campaign for Real Ale (Camra).
Jonathan Mail, of Camra, said: “There is a problem for local pubs, especially in the South East of England, where property prices are so high. There is a mismatch between what pubs are worth in terms of turnover and property prices. Many viable pubs are being converted into housing.”
Now I don't think any SNP ministers were involved in the closures but I could of course be wrong.
As I understand it Diageo has posted 2 billion pound profits, not to be sniffed at.
I cannot understand the move to create jobs in Fife, why not use the facilities already in place?
I do hope that in an independent Scotland we will be a tad more careful of sell offs of very iconic Scottish produce to foreign firms, and a tad more careful with offering inducements that never seem to be paid back when firms pull out.
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The Tories are right to point to the jobs on offer in Fife - although, of course, that does nothing to placate those now facing the dole queue at the affected sites.
Allow me again Brian;
The Tories are (hypocritical) to point to the jobs on offer in Fife - although, of course, that does nothing to placate those (who) (faced) the dole queue at (the apex of Thatcherite Britain) in the 1980's
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The grey man didn't say anything terribly convincing and offered little in the way to substantiate his claim.
This has the bonus effect of him seeming more intelligent by saying as little as possible.
It doesn't wash with me though - a mouthpiece like him just loves to heard the screech and drone of his own inane ramblings.
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#53. At 8:35pm on 09 Sep 2009, handclapping wrote:
#51 Dougie
Good point.
#52 JRMacClure
As an impartial observer, do you think Labour's selection and continuation with Elmer Fudd, sorry Iain, um, er, pages up to find it, Gray, as their "Leader" is part of the Unionist strategy of trying to show that we are too poor, too wee and too stupid?
-----------------------
Heh. Now that is a bit of a loaded question although Labour and Tories both do a lot of the "Scotland is too wee and stupid to decide their own future" song and dance.
I still say that people of all countries should have the chance to decide for themselves. If anything, the recession would possibly make people more likely to feel safer where they are rather than risk a change, so -- there is something WEIRD in their thinking.
Whether Mr. Gray is really worse than any of the other of the ilk is hard to tell from the rather slanted coverage one tends to get out my way. No, I haven't been impressed. It's no worse than the politics one sees in my country, but I don't see any sign of concern about Scotland above their own political profit.
I have to disagree with you mildly on one point. The one who seems to doing the most sniping for her own self and party interest seems to be Ms. Goldie.
But since she looks exactly like my scary First Grade teacher--maybe I'm prejudiced.
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#54
FACT
Just as a matter of information to MagisterIlluminatus the new regulations for the licensed trade were the product of the last Labour/LibDem Executive which they voted through parliament when they were in power. This Government has inherited them.
So he can stop talking rubbish.
(Not much chance of that, I suspect).
George Lyons MSP (lately) piloted them through the Scottish Parliament.
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I think Brian forgot his headline. What is wrong with "government unlikely to fall yet"
We appear to get a variation on that theme every other blog.
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#54 (part two)
FACT
The smoking ban was voted through parliament by Jack McConnell's administration when he was First Minister and is Jack's pride and joy , (though indeed Stewart Maxwell MSP initiated the move for it and quite right too).
It has had little to do with the closing of pubs which is mainly the result of cheap supermarket booze which the pubs cannot compete with.
Trust me.
I used to have a pub (and a licensed hotel and a licensed shop and a social club).
More rubbish from MagisterIlluminatus
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#54 Magi
The reported tax rate was 14.5% and the underlying tax rate was 22.2%. extract from Diageo preliminary results. Given that the standard rate of Corporation Tax is 28%, is it that Diageo are only paying half their tax that you find grotesque?
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# 55 handclapping
'Do you think the SNP could be so devious'
I've been thinking that myself. However, it may be better for the SNP if they hold on until the next Scottish elections and come in with a majority (hopefully) then put the referendum to the people. I think that the Libdems might even back the idea of AS going to the country early as the Scottish voters are so fed up with Labour that they might see an opportunity to snap up quite a few Labour seats. As for the Tories I think that their new attacking mode might go against them as far as Scottish votes are concerned. Aunty Bella was building up a lot of respect for herself and her party; I think she might have blown it now.
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#54
(part three)
Even more rubbish
FACT
All drink sold presently in pubs,clubs and licenced restaurants are already retailing at well above the minimum price level that the Government is aiming to put in place, so they will not be affected at all.
Most of our traditional drinks industry in whisky and other sprits also already retail in bottles at above the minimum price level to be set.
The target is cut price booze in vodka mainly and dangerous concotions like almost inflamable ciders and alco pops.
Does MagisterIlluminatus believe our citizens have the right to get out of their faces in our streets to allhours for pocket money prices while the rest of us pick up the tab for the police and the NHS expenses involved and the smashed up relationships?
Only the deeply stupid or the deeply cynical in the Scottish Parliamsnt are making much of this now ,particularly as all medical advice supports this move and the Government in London is preparing to follow suit.
Next?
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#55 I'm sure the thought of the prospective alternative FM or another election will be so appalling that Alex will have his evil way.
--------------------------
It's possible. Mr. Salmond thinks very long--of that I am convinced. I admire him no end because that is exactly how he should think. Short term planning is endemic among politicians and is the bane of our world. Most politicians cannot think past the next election.
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http://www.voanews.com/english/2009-09-09-voa53.cfm
*ahem* I assure you, I'm not the only one saying this. The similarities are truly frightening. And would someone PLEASE tell me how we know we have "won" this one?
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59. At 9:52pm on 09 Sep 2009, GAberdeen
"The Tories are (hypocritical) to point to the jobs on offer in Fife - although, of course, that does nothing to placate those (who) (faced) the dole queue at (the apex of Thatcherite Britain) in the 1980's"
LETS DO THE TIME WARP?!
Thatchers Britain has been and gone (thankfully).
If you can only moan about things before I or most Scottish tories were born then you need a new political calander!
I CARE, WE CARE ABOUT UNEMPLOYMENT!
I will not be told by anyone that we are all a bunch of thatcherites lacking in compassion. Time to move on?
As for Forsyth, he aint going to be Sec of State- its a plan B, if no Scot tory mps are elected; there will be.
Mundel, Dalrymple, Cook, the list of fresh tory faces will be numerois (by this i mean 6 or 7).
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From The Scotsman:
Members of Holyrood's audit committee yesterday moved a step closer to securing an inquiry into the National Conversation.
There's no opposition in Holyrood anymore, just a bunch of third raters demanding inquiry after inquiry.
It's not even funny, it's a sick joke.
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54. At 8:57pm on 09 Sep 2009, MagisterIlluminatus
Your selectivity in 'facts' and truth is very typical of your contributions.
Tell me does all your 'Nat bashing' earn you extra gold stickers from messers Gray and Brown?
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what has Ian Gray to say about the villian Des Broon? What would have Scottish Nu Liebour have done to reverse this decision? not a word from he who would be king.
If Kilmarnock wanted to do something about it... then start by getting rid of Des Broon. and pick a party that really wants to do something for Scotland.
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70. deanthetory
"As for Forsyth, he aint going to be Sec of State- its a plan B, if no Scot tory mps are elected; there will be. "
So the prospect of an unelected SoS thanks but no thanks.
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on diageo and profits:
the two billion was not generated from kilmarnock. what the board will be looking at is "efficiency" savings across the corporation, and simply don't give a monkeys about job losses unless it seriously affects their business. no one should be blamed from a political point of view.
on minimum drink pricing:
it is a good idea, especially if it reduces the problems caused. and snecked is right that supermarket prices are a major factor in pubs closing. the smoking ban had an effect but that was short-lived to be perfectly honest.
but i don't think this will resolve the problems scotland has with drink-related anti-social behaviour. what is required is education at a young level. it won't stop the older ones but we must start somewhere. in addition those convicted of minor alcohol-related offences should be given community service in full view of the general public.
my fear is that the media will play on the negatives of this initiative rather than focus on the positives and use their influence to educate people.
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#69 JRMacClure
Crivens, what's happened to the VoA? It was all gung-ho imperialism in the worst McCarthy-like manner when last I listened.
Surely you have won when you've flattened their cities, disrupted their politics and ruined their economy. You go and tell people that the job's done wearing a bomber jacket on an aircraft carrier like you were MacAthur taking the surrender of Japan. Or is that just the Republican way?
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#70 Deanthetory
Apologies dean - I couldn't resist.
Goldie is nothing like Thatcher - I know this and say it loudly so people can hear me say it.
But...
Is Cameron like Goldie or is he like Thatcher? We touched on this the last day and as I recall - you think call me dave is not for hathite fabianism? correct?
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#72 deanthetory
You regularly bang on about opinion polls but you have neglected to tell us about the one on your blog:
What would you have done with Megrahi?
32% - Let him rot in jail till dead
22% - Prisoners transfer to Libya
17% - House arrest in UK
47% - Compassionate release
Looks like Aunt Bella failed the litmus test on her initial foray.
I don't know about other bloggers on this site, but I believe peoples actions speak louder than their words:
You, constantly, resurrect Disraeli, SuperMac and Heath as your guiding lights and equate Thatcher with Cruella de Vil. Yet on your blogsite you have no pictures of your icons but there are three utube videos of Thatcher under the banner Inspirational Moments.
deanthetory - A Fraudian slip, perhaps?
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#76. At 11:13pm on 09 Sep 2009, handclapping wrote:
#69 JRMacClure
Crivens, what's happened to the VoA? It was all gung-ho imperialism in the worst McCarthy-like manner when last I listened.
Surely you have won when you've flattened their cities, disrupted their politics and ruined their economy. You go and tell people that the job's done wearing a bomber jacket on an aircraft carrier like you were MacAthur taking the surrender of Japan. Or is that just the Republican way?
-------------
Didn't work in Vietnam so I fear it may not work in Afghanistan either.
As far as the VoA--yeah. I guess even they are occasionally forced to telling the truth. A bit like occasionally the Scotsman suddenly realizing they said something that didn't attack the SNP.
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77. At 11:21pm on 09 Sep 2009, GAberdeen
"Is Cameron like Goldie or is he like Thatcher? We touched on this the last day and as I recall - you think call me dave is not for hathite fabianism? correct?"
Cameron is less like a Heathite Fabian, and One Nationists more widely.
You are correct.
But Cameron is also a smooth operator. He will devolve further powers to Scotland I reckon, meaning Goldie, and other more compassionate Scottish Conservative leaders will be all that matters.
Cameron is not a worry, it is the Scottish Holyrood team is what is important.
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78. At 11:32pm on 09 Sep 2009, Roll_On_2010
"You, constantly, resurrect Disraeli, SuperMac and Heath as your guiding lights and equate Thatcher with Cruella de Vil. Yet on your blogsite you have no pictures of your icons but there are three utube videos of Thatcher under the banner Inspirational Moments.
deanthetory - A Fraudian slip, perhaps?"
I am an unusual tory. I am an extreme minority within my party.
I wish a future in politics for my party. Therefore I must appeal to the core voters, local constituency offices. Sadly this is the reality of the world. I dont like it but, there it is.
I wont have any too moderate stuff biting me in the ass in ten years time!
When your on stage you must play to the audience. Even if you cannot cope with your own core voters. The price you pay.
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two things,
Is anybody else really disappointed by the lack of investigative journalism across the board being served up? The fiasco yesterday of K McCaskills' aunty Jeans, brothers cousin being the influencing factor re Lockerbie ,the constant rent a quote (no substance required ) from Mr Gray,Murphy and even Scott, is it really good enough Brian ?
2nd thing,I have met enough "responsible" drinkers im my time to see the effect alcohol is having ,the new rules might not be popular but believe me it is a step in the right direction and its being able to get yer pals to buy ya 18 cans like for a fiver thats causing the problems - that will no be in a pub then
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#82. When it all shakes out pubs will be helped not hurt by the inability to buy cheap drinks off-premises (as we call it over here).
It's been a problem everywhere and making it too expensive has to be part of a solution. Education won't do it and the companies make to much profit for them to work on the problem. As long as people can buy drinks for pennies, they will. I'm not saying education shouldn't be part of the solution, but we're lying to ourselves if we say that it's enough.
Sure, it won't be a popular solution and you'll end up with the lowest-common-denominator politicians playing to that crowd. Unfortunately, it can't be helped.
Investigative journalism? I didn't think that even existed any more. Oh, wait!
It doesn't.
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unfortunately the way things are going they would be as well interviewing the wumman at the icey 'cos she can give you an opinion on anything ( and I mean anything)and at the end of the day if it is just a vacuous quote ,no suggestion ,alternative or even explanation required her opinion is as valid as Iain Grays or "i feel your pain" Mr Murphy
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posted this already on the other blog and thought i`d just put it here to.
Got to laugh at the response of the Labour leader about the Diageo closures he just couldn`t help himself his response was :-
Scottish Labour Leader Iain Gray said Diageo staff had been "let down by the SNP Government".
what was he doing all this time?Did he try and help with any solutions to save the plants (NO) because he`s no clue. Least the scottish goverment tried to do something how people can vote labour is beyond belief now, they can`t do anything apart from snipe at the SNP
They (diageo) was not going to budge on this anyway because we`ve been doing the steel for there new plant for the last month.
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"Tuition fees should be reintroduced in Scotland, the former head of Universities Scotland has said"
"Lord Sutherland said some of the money should go to scholarships to pay for students from poor backgrounds who cannot afford fees and living costs."
-http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/8246907.stm
As a student I say no. Isn't universal free education not something which devolutionary Scotland has rightfully prided itself on?
Where on earth do they assume the 'rich' kids money will come from to pay this proposed tax on education and self betterment?
Oh..yeh...they assume that rich parents will be willing to give the money to the 'rich kids'.....
Life doesn't work like that, and all too often potential has been snuffed out because of idiotic views like this. All children in a civilised Scottish society, which prides itself on compassion- must have universal access without such a descriminatory tax on potential.
Well seen this Lord proposed this, for if anyone with an actual democratic mandate did they'd be out on their ear! And rightfully so.
No to this proposed penalty on opportunity and student betterment.
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#86. What? You think it's not perfectly logical that if they charge for university that more poor people will attend?
I will admit that is just mind boggling logic or lack of it. Let's make it harder for everyone to attend so we can give money to students so they can afford to pay what they wouldn't have to pay now.
Oh, there is high level logic for you. His degrees are in WHAT?
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English Justice Minister is just noy up to our standards - and some people want him as Labour leader for the UK????
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/no-ground-over-hacker-extradition-1784231.html
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It is unspeakable. There is no way that poor man could survive in an American prison. The thought is horrible. And don't expect compassion from the Americans.
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#89 JRMacClure
"And don't expect compassion from the Americans"
I was watching an episode of the American cartoon "Dungeons and Dragons" with my grandson.
In it, the hero has the evil one at his mercy, but chooses to release rather than dstroy him. His reasoning is exactly that of MacAskill and Scottish/European Justice - "This is not for your benefit, but for ours. So that we do not descend to your level".
I found it fascinating that the moral precepts that Americans preach to their children are not reflected in the behaviour of adult American society.
Maybe you guys need to watch more kid's TV!
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sneckedagain various posts
The facts that you are so dismissive of came from the in-house magazine of the Scottish Licensed Trade Association. But, as the former owner of 4 licensed premises, I take it you don't read it any more.
It is true the supermarket pricing has had an impact on pubs, to a lesser extent clubs, and virtually no impact on off-sales. Where the impact is hardest felt is amongst drink manufacturers who also happen to be the biggest employers. It is why they are so against minimum pricing. It it the latest in a long line of policies from both Westminster and Holyrood which will destroy one of Scotland's biggest indigeneous industries and it is economically insane.
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91. At 08:39am on 10 Sep 2009, MagisterIlluminatus wrote: (...)
(re: minimum pricing) It it the latest in a long line of policies from both Westminster and Holyrood which will destroy one of Scotland's biggest indigeneous industries and it is economically insane.
Is the continued tolerance of Scotland's culture of systematic alcohol misuse therefore sane?
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What about a nice conspiracy theory in relation to Diageo.
Diageo would be perfectly able to read the political shennanigans in Scotland and take soundings from the Scottish Chamber of Commerce. This is the Scottish Chamber of commerce who spin against anything the SNP does and support the Labour Party. They don't want an independent Scotland or a government that can stick up for the interests of the Scottish people. So Diageo, having read the runes, know that the decision to go ahead with the closure of Kilmarnock bottling plant will strike a blow against independence and will be secretly supported by those like Iain Gray and Iain McMillan who want to damage the SNP. In their eyes, the loss of jobs at Kilmarnock is a small price to pay in achieving that aim.
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RE #1 PMK
What a silly comment. Most people who drink Johnnie Walker in the important export market wouldn't have a clue where it is made, just that it is in Scotland. In Scotland people know about Kilmarnock, but not elsewhere. Diageo understand how to market and sell Whisky, whatever you think, very few whiskies are bottled and packaged where they are made.
Re 91 Magister illuminatus
On this occasion I must agree with Snecked again, governments must balance many things, the SNP government are right to tackle alcohol pricing, it is essential if we are to change our awful relationship with Alcohol.
If we extend your logic we will never improve the nations health, reduce the sickening levels of Domestic abuse, reduce levels of child neglect, youth crime, anti-social behaviour etc, etc as these social problems are all fuelled by cheap alcohol. Many lives are blighted daily with the human cost of our affection for getting drunk.
Extend your logic a little further and lets all start smoking again so we can employ more people making cigarettes. To say nothing of extra staff in the NHS to deal with the effects.
The effect of Minimum pricing will have no effect on most alcohol sales, just those at the lower end of the market. The 3 litres of very strong Cider for 3 quid type of deals, which really does fuel the awful social cost.
No right minded person can think it is good when you can buy lager cheaper than water in a supermarket. Minimum pricing is a good idea, many things have been tried before and failed this has got to be worth a try as the situation is deteriorating not improving.
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# 91 MagisterIlluminatus
The days when all a young man had to do was to visit the pub has long gone. There are more interesting things for those young people to do. That is the nature of culture it tends to change over time. The back street pub is in its death throes because of culture changes, cheap drink in the supermarket and cheap high street pubs like Weatherspoons. Add to that basket of reasons the changes initiated by the breweries themselves. My uncle used to run a pub for years and he had told me (in the 70s) that the days of the brewery being run by brewers was over. In his day the breweries, which owned the majority of the pubs and leased them out to tennants, were only really interested in the amount of beer the tennant would buy off them and normally turned a blind eye to the 'second till'. Then the breweries were starting to be run by accountants who only looked at the profits they could screw out of their tennants. Prior to that we always used to see the landlord walking about his pub with a wad in his back pocket. The breweries were quite happy if the tennant invested his own money and built up his business because that meant increased sales of beer to that tennant. When the accountants took charge they penalised the good tennants by forcing up the rent making it uneconomical for the tennant to make a decent living from running a pub.
There are many reasons for the demise of pubs, which you very well know, and you trying to score cheap political points is doing an injustice to the industry. However, you neglect to point out the the distilleries are still forging ahead making good profits and opening up the world market for the Scottish brand of whisky. Whisky is not really affected by this change of culture but, as an export, is still healthy and still brings in hundreds of millions into the UK coffers.
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#37 Robabody
"“some are born great, some achieve greatness and some have greatness thrust upon them” "
Surely, a more accurate response would be: some achieve greyness and some have greyness thrust upon them, Iain on the other hand, was born grey...
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#54
"FACT Since the smoking ban was introduced at the behest of Stewart Maxwell SNP MSP, 25 pubs per week have closed in Scotland. That is a minmum of 100 job losses a week, every week."
Correct me if I'm wrong, but haven't the rest of the UK also introduced smoking bans? Granted we did it a year earlier than the rest of the UK but, for once, I was actually quite glad of Scotland being the 'Guinea Pig'.
The point is though, if the smoking ban has resulted in fewer people visiting pubs, leading to fewer sales, resulting in less revenue for the drinks companies, then the smoking bans in the rest of the UK, will proportionally result in much great reduction in revenues than the one in Scotland.
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# 94 northhighlander
I agree with your post.
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# 96 Fit Like?
lol
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"Whisky is not really affected by this change of culture but, as an export, is still healthy and still brings in hundreds of millions into the UK coffers."
Not so. Diageo have registered Johnny Walker in The Netherlands for tax purposes and pay minimal taxes to the treasury in London.
Diageo plc has its headquarters in Henrietta Place, central London, and its £3.6m-a-year chief executive, Paul Walsh, lives in Sussex. The drinks giant has 6,500 workers in Britain, mostly making and selling scotch. Their famous Johnnie Walker brand, blended in Kilmarnock, is exported all over the world.
But this British firm has been paying very little UK corporation tax, relatively speaking. Despite average annual profits of almost £2bn over the last decade, its accounts disclose a mere £43m a year in average UK corporation tax charges. This is little more than 2% of its profits.
The tax bill would be nearer £144m a year if it reflected Diageo's actual physical UK presence rather than the present system of taxing only those financial profits said to arise in this country. Some 30% of Diageo's production is located in Britain.
Leaving aside legitimate allowances against profits, such a difference could be said to represent a notional "tax gap" of more than £100m a year. It takes 20,000 ordinary British households paying income tax to fill such a gap.
The vast bulk of Diageo's profits are declared to arise overseas, where what taxes they pay go to foreign authorities. The firm owns Guinness in Ireland and Smirnoff vodka in the US, for example.
http://tinyurl.com/cxty2o
http://tinyurl.com/kq2q2f
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The problem with MagisterIlluminatus is the same problem that the Labour party has just now. Instead of admitting that there is a problem and try to work for a better future for the Scottish people (whatever route that takes) he, like the Labour party, is incapable of putting party politics aside and only feels the need to make insipid party political snipes at the SNP because he, and the Labour party, are like the back street pubs; a dinosaur incapable of changing with the times and will therefore go the way of the dinosaurs. If you are an example of the mouthpiece of the Labour party, which I believe you are, then bon voyage and enjoy your looming descent into obscurity and, hopefully, oblivion. Maybe a pheonix will rise from the ashes of the once great Labour party to stand for the principles which used to shine through as an example for us all to follow. Whereas, nowadays the current Labour party is defunct of all political moral standing.
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# 100 courteousduncan
A very interesting piece of posting, thank you. However, I was not just talking about Diageo but the whole of the Scottish whisky market. Your point is a valid one and just shows how important it is have an independent Scotland so that we can encourage businesses and, therefore, taxes to return to the country, Scotland, that produces those wonderful products.
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# 95
How true, accountants care only for the bottom line, being profitable and being ruthless are not the same.
So David Gosnell can point to £100 million of savings, surely a good sized bonus is in order.
Meanwhile real people, in the main not politicians, suffer.
Let`s hear from Jim Murphy and Alex Salmond what they are going to do in the next two years before these cuts take effect.
Over to you guys.
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94. Northhighlander
Regarding Scotland's social ills, we have a very well paid police force who, it would seem, are patently incapable of sorting out these problems. So what we'll do instead is hammer civilised, responsible drinkers and throw civilised, responsible taxpayers out of work because Hey! that'll show the yobs.
Now, is that your argument?
Let's not put anyone in jail for less than 6 months according to Kenny MacAskill, but let's instead hammer law-abiding taxpayers, drinkers, smokers and motorists because - let's face it - they're easy to bully.
But not for much longer.
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# 103 nine2ninetysix
'Meanwhile real people, in the main not politicians, suffer'
This is true and while Scotland is shackled to the UK as Westminster dreams and longs for the days of empire and strives to strutt upon the world stage pretending to hit above its weight we will always be dragged down by crippling taxes upon our industries. No wonder businesses are happy to hide their profits abroad to escape the British taxman.
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Brian it is legitimate to ask whether the SNP government had to tackle this issue with one hand tied behind its back. No control over corporate taxation, no control over employment law, no capacity to threaten nationalisation of the distilleries.
Ah, the union dividend.
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Coming up to the mid-day press release from NuLab..... Hope that the Beeb Web-Boys have the placeholder ready to go.
It will be fascinating to see how The Murph tries to spin his way out of this one and place all of the blame on Eck.
It was always clear that Diageo were never going to keep the Kilmarnock plant or Port Dundas open. The bean-counters had already pulled the plug. It wouldn't have mattered if the Scottish Government had handed them the keys to the exchequer.
Everyone was all full of "yes, we'll all work together" but the moment it all goes wrong Its All Eck's Fault and how a multinational company won't be seen getting into bed with us nasty secessionists.
Sad to see Aunty Bella descend from the lofty heights of impressive and functional politicking to name-calling and faked indignation. Still, with the current incumbent as Shadow Representative from Earth to the Sweaties having the IQ of a small lemon and the spectre of Forsyth slavering to get his hands back on the Scotland Office, I guess that she has to show that she is On Message for Middle England in Eck and Broon-bashing and forget that she is elected to represent Scottish people in a Scottish legislative chamber.
If that was the best she could do, time to pick up the pension and give young Murdo a go.
The Grey Man continues the fine tradition of recent Leaders of the NuLab contingent in the Scottish Parliament. Frankly, not even Joke or Wendy could have come up with a quote that was at the same time both appalling and patronising. They did one or the other, but never both.
Come on Iain, publish the details of the Full NuLab plan that had been clearly discussed with Mandy, The Murph and Des Nice-But-Dim that would have saved the Jobs. There wasn't one ? Oh ?
Tavish seems to have passed briefly through this plane of reality and actually pinned the tail on the donkey. The Political Blame Game will not bring the jobs back. So don't do it.
Let's not forget who is shutting the plants. Lets not forget who is devastating the economy of Kilmarnock and Port Dundas.
It's not Eck or Nicola or John or Kenny.
It's not Tavish or Aunty Bella.
We can't even suggest that it's The Murph or The Grey Man.
It's Diageo.
Shout at them and not the Scottish Government, who seem to have tried in good faith to present a plan to save jobs.
As has been said, We all have a choice whether or not to buy Diageo brands. Devastated at some of the malts that are on the list that will no longer be featuring in my cabinet.
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Has anyone seen what has happened to the article on BBC Scotland about the costings for a PFI project? When I tried to link to it the message was that it there was an error. I have just now returned to try and find the article and I have noticed that the story has now completely disappeared from the BBC Scotland site.
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First Minister Questions;
Iain Gray was as mediocre as ever. His questions seemed confused, blaming Salmond for Diagio failure? Surely the firm itself- who sought to break 200 years of tradition- in the pursuit of ever greater profits is to blame?
As for his attack on the national conversation, gods- ok Gray, we get it- you dont approve of it! Move on, ask a real question.
Goldie made sense on the need for annual education stats publications. I agree with her.
Tavish made a little more sense than normal, but he showed by the LibDems are destined to forever be in opposition. Tavish wants to offer every single company money to stay put? Scotland doesnt have those kinds of resources- if he had every experienced power and responsibilities he'd have understood this.
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I was surfing the BBC Scotland's news a moment ago when I saw this article attacking the Scottish Government's education of Scottish history programme, School history trip fund attacked. I, personally, don't see any problem with educating our children on the principal moments in Scottish history.
However, when I looked at the BBC's 'RELATED INTERNET LINKS' I saw links to the Scottish Government, Labour and the Scottish Conservatives but no link to the SNP. I haven't noticed this before. Can anyone tell me if, when Labour was in power, were there links to the SNP and no links to Labour?
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#106 Govanite: Indeed that is a fair question. Gray's remarks chime in with this mis-direction of attention.
As noted, Jim Murphy was also involved in events. - Now, he DOES have access to matters you raised as being pertinent. He CAN access Westminster resources. - That is in fact his duty as Scottish Secretary.
Is Mr.Gray making a habit of being at odds with his *betters* in London.? - recently on Megrahi, now on Murphy's role in Diageo.?
Is there not a toon cooncil somewhere looking for a worn-out sma-toon socialist to be ther convener. - He'd be happier there, for sure?
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Interesting dynamic over the confirmation of the Diageo closures.
Labour have decided to use it to attack the SNP - no surprise there.
The tories have decided to focus on the 400 jobs in Fife.
The Lib Dems once again are insignificant.
The workforce and locals attack Diageo as do the Scottish Government - again, no surprise.
How will this play with the electorate?
Well, I would venture to suggest that one party is actively standing up for the workers here and it isn't Labour.
The issue has highlighted the lack of levers available to the Scottish Government. Far from being a distraction, a debate on the current constitutional set up is urgently needed.
Unionists parties are now effectively causing harm by ensuring Scotland continues to stagnate. Their apparent need for a regular 'inquiry' fix is no substitute for constructive criticism and intelligent debate.
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Interesting story unfolding over the death of a paratrooper, interpreter and civilians as part of an operation to free a journalist.
Seems that negotiators are livid that Brown gave the OK for this. The negotiators expected a release of all within days without a shot being fired.
Was this an attempt by Brown to change the news agenda by sanctioning this operatopn? Well, we don't know, but one thing is certain - it has resulted in more flak coming his way.
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no problem with minimum pricing in principal, but do not be blinded to the even worse curse on our society. Heroine, amphetamines, crack. Penalise the law abiding drinker - priorotise the junkie on the hand out and hospital Q.
Was offered parafin at a party in Thurso once! All youngsters too, so if folk want a cheap drink they will find it, completely wasted their brains on drinking it to. Scary!!!
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Further on Goldie's education proposals, the Scotland on Sunday seems to have this article- apparently they conducted a rather large scale poll:
http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com/scotland/Tories-want-to-sideline-badly.5621665.jp
"New polling conducted by the Conservatives has found that 70 per
cent of Scots back the idea, saying that badly behaved children should not be returned until they have shown their behaviour has improved.
The YouGov poll of 1,183 Scots, commissioned by the Conservatives, asked whether respondents would prefer continually disruptive pupils to be removed from mainstream classrooms and placed in separate classrooms with separate members of staff until they show that they can behave. Seventy per cent of people said they agreed.
By contrast, only 10 per cent said they backed such children being "kept in the same classroom as well-behaved children but with an extra member of staff". A further 11 per cent said they agreed that such children should be sent home, with 10 per cent saying they did not agree with any of the options, or didn't know"
It seems that there is finally a reasonable debate on the future of Scottish education policy about to set underway. (and naturally Labour and the LibDems are nowhere on the issue).
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#109 dean-
Sorry could you remind us who paid for the "calman commission "??
what shower of diddies thought the trams were a good idea in Edinburgh ?
The opposition party's really need to get their selective memory loss sorted out.
pot calling kettle black me thinks!
Sid
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110 - Gedguy 2 - The BBC often do this. I complained about this about a year ago. Usual patronising reply.
According to the BBC there are only three major parties. And Scotland should only concern itself with the labour party.
I think the licence fee and the existing governors must go before any substantial change will happen. At present they can keep fobbing us off with inexactitudes.
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108. gedguy2
"Has anyone seen what has happened to the article on BBC Scotland about the costings for a PFI project?"
Private prison victory for union
"This decision is extremely important and should help pave the way for greater access to information about all PFI/PPP contracts."
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#113 - Time will tell, but Frank Gardiner is proposing operational reasons, regarding the anticipated movement of hostages if not rescued pronto. - It's plausible, and we'l see if it's supported.
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Dean, on Tavish,
"if he had every [sic] experienced power and responsibilities he'd have understood this."
Tavish Scott served in the last Scottish ‘Executive’, Minister for Transport, prior to that he was Depute Minister for Finance, prior to that he was Depute Minister for Parliament.
Really Dean, get your fact right – please.
You still haven’t answered my question as to what the orange heart of the Tory party in the west of Scotland thinks of your Jacobitism btw.
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#115: Separation of bad-behaving pupils.
This is popular among chalk-face staff in schools. - Many want this segregation, so that education can proceed undisturbed for the reasonable majority in classes.
Good for education, but also good for staff. - Unregulated abuse lavished upon teachers by *children* is an immense source of stress, absence & resignation.
So, Win-Win if this policy can be adopted. But it needs to be resourced...
Just hope the mods don't hear about it!
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110: -
Yeah, the "critics" claim it would be biased in favour of nationalism.
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Re 104
What a ridiculous statement.
The police have to keep law and order but only a buffoon would argue that pushing cheap alcohol on youngsters in a society that has a dangerous relationship with alcohol is anything other than crazy.
Go to your local A&E on a Saturday night. It will resemble a war zone. Ask how many staff have been attacked. Doesn't matter where you live in Scotland the results will be much about such.
Ask what is the greatest problem, drugs or Alcohol. The answer will be alcohol by an absolute mile.
It is the greatest social ill we have and we need to change. Really change. i watched a shinty cup final a couple of weeks back on Alba and a lot of the fans around the ground were drinking tins of lager or cider. This is typical of such events in Scotland. On the continent this is nowhere near so prevalent, it is not so common in England.
We have a culture where enjoyment and social activity always involves alcohol. We also have the health problems to match.
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#123: Alcohol, yes it's a big problem linked to anti-social behaviour.
"This is typical of such events in Scotland. On the continent this is nowhere near so prevalent, it is not so common in England."
Continental habits seem better, although some countries fare better than others over there too.
BUT, note the violence at West Ham recently. - There were bars open IN the stadium...even while the fighting was in progress. - That fact surprised me.
A chat with a distillery boss last year surprised me. - He tells that they produce a lot of low cost spirits (apart from their branded whisky), mostly Vodka type products, for supermarkets wanting budget booze often as own-label drinks. - Bit like farmers, they have to play along or lose important income.
Dual pressure of Excise Duty and Supermarkets must be a factor in the Diageo picture too....making operational margins less attractive in UK.?
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"Ask what is the greatest problem, drugs or Alcohol. The answer will be alcohol by an absolute mile."
Hmmm, maybe, but i think a large proportion of it is drug fuelled alchoholism. Addiction/addicts seem to be spreading like plague (along with bull terriers and black pointy teeth). Then you've got the club culture and all the party drugs that enrage thirst. Then of course you've got the general attitude of youngsters - ach you could go on and on and on. I personnally don't believe alchohol to be the main ingredient in the final outcome though. But some action is a start I suppose. I would like to see more responsible/proactive aproach to heroin and crack etc.
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120. At 2:23pm on 10 Sep 2009, pattymkirkwood
"Really Dean, get your fact right – please."
Your right. A lesson for the future, but I still cannot abide Tavish and his UnLibDem cohorts.
"You still haven’t answered my question as to what the orange heart of the Tory party in the west of Scotland thinks of your Jacobitism btw"
Your right I didn't did I.
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121. At 2:27pm on 10 Sep 2009, luibeg
"So, Win-Win if this policy can be adopted. But it needs to be resourced..."
Resourcing does appear the problem, and largest hurdle to wholesale introduction of this policy.
I recall reading somewhere that the Scottish Tory team around Goldie is in favour of running a couple of trial projects- fully funded to gauge results to resources spent before widescale introduction.
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I know a school which needs this policy. - It's not in Tory terrirory, like much of the country I suppose.
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#126 Dean,
Don't mistake me Tavish is absolutely terrible as a parliamentary performer ... just when you have a grasp of the fact that he has x years as a Government minister under his belt, his weekly showings become even more underwhelming.
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129. At 6:13pm on 10 Sep 2009, pattymkirkwood
"just when you have a grasp of the fact that he has x years as a Government minister under his belt, his weekly showings become even more underwhelming."
That is so true! He should be better, he ought to have a superior grasp of how Holyrood proceedure works and functions. He is weak, but Gray holds the title of Mr Mediocre.
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Brian Blether:
There was going to be Major Failout over the Diageo story; Whatever way it went....
=Dennis Junior=
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