Anti-Glasgow?
Does the Scottish Government have an anti-Glasgow bias? Don't think the evidence stacks up.
The claim was made by Councillor Steven Purcell, the leader of Glasgow City Council, off the back of the decision to cancel the proposed rail link to the city's airport.
There are two separate issues here: the rail link itself and the wider treatment of Scotland's largest city.
The link to Glasgow Airport has been cancelled on the grounds that the cost, especially in times of economic trouble, isn't justified by the proclaimed gains, according to ministers.
Pretty well exactly the arguments deployed by ministers when they cancelled the air link to Edinburgh Airport. Did that then illustrate an anti-Edinburgh bias?
Other say: but look at the trams investment in Edinburgh? Look at the replacement for the Forth Bridge?
Two points. John Swinney was completely against the trams project - and was forced to fund it by a Parliamentary vote.
The new Forth crossing is vital for the whole of Scotland. What do we do if the present bridge fails - or faces restrictions on traffic? Return to the ferries?
Further, ministers are able to point to other investment in Glasgow: the new Southern General Hospital, motorway extensions etc.
On my show on the wireless (Brian's Big Debate, it's awfully good, you should listen), Mr Purcell argued that this investment was largely driven by the city council.
He argued further that Edinburgh had benefited from capital city status cash.
Another issue arises.
The creation of a link to the airport formed part of Glasgow's bid for the Commonwealth Games.
It was an explicit element of the offer, with cross-party endorsement including a letter from the then deputy leader of the largest opposition party at Holyrood, one Nicola Sturgeon.
Fine, say ministers, but times have changed.
The Scottish Government argues it is backing other development projects - and that it can guarantee good transport for the Games participants and spectators.
So where are we?
Strictly speaking, the rail link could be revived if opposition parties join forces to insist that it is reinstated within the government's spending programme.
Will that happen? I think not.
Opposition leaders would require to state what else they would cut to fund the rail link.
Frankly, they have other priorities.
What does Glasgow City Council do now? My guess? Sustain its complaints - but, realistically, seek to extract other advantages for the city as recompense.
I suspect both John Swinney and Steven Purcell - both highly adept politicians - know precisely what is going on.
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Brian. I have lived in the Highlands and then Grampian for my entire life. Glasgow's bleating about this is like the guy who drops a pound and finds a fiver but still moans. The central belt of Scotland gets the majority of the money, schemes under the Scottish government have been pushed through extra fast.
Why was Edinburgh given a £500 million tram which goes in a straight line? Have I missed something? But a few rails, overhead cables and some trams can't cost that much.
Now Glasgow have started crying that they aren't getting the same as their eastern cousins. Two sides of the same coin in my opinion, the spoilt children who have everything but still want more.
Been living in Aberdeen for 8 years now and still waiting for the city by-pass. The nortern A9 and the A96 are two of the most disgraceful major roads in the UK and the two worst in Scotland.
Although most people in the central belt seem to think Scotland is made up of two cities and ends soemwhere around Perth.
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It would be constructive to the discussion here if participants who are to complain about a "cut" could at the same time state a alternative preference.
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That doesn't change a totally spurious headline in the BBC which, as is all too often the case, looks politically motivated.
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As the old saying goes - you cannot get a quart out of a pint pot. John Swinney has had the budget from Westminster reduced, but still has many things to pay for, something has to go and in this case it is the Glasgow Airport rail link.
Maybe if Steven Purcell is so annoyed at the rail link being shelved, he should approach his labour bosses in Westminster (Darling, Brown etc) and ask them for the money directly. I am sure the people of Glasgow would be very grateful of their generosity. On the other hand, I recall that this rail link has been discussed for several years - why then did the labour administration in Scotland not do something about it years ago when they were in charge???
The Labour Party in Scotland should "Put up" or "Shut up" they only make themselves look stupid.
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Brian
Think if this 'anti-Glasgow' nonsense runs long enough it might 'win' Labour a few extra votes?
Go for it, BBC!
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I find this dishonest moaning from Mr Purcell indicative of the utter desperation of the British Labour party.
Brian,I also note that you are beginning to distance your reporting from labour. This is significant - Seen some polls ?
Finally I had the misfortune to hear Glen Campbell on the radio. Is he deliberately becoming a parody of a BBC Scotland/Labour reporter ?
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A cheekier loon than I might suggest that the harder it is to get to Glasgow the better ;o)
But then that is exactly the point of this manufactured outrage from Labour. All other avenues are failing: "too wee, too poor, too stupid" no longer works; "the SNP would cut off your heads and eat your babies" doesn't get much traction in the voters' minds either. What to do...? Last chance saloon, let's foment division and discord within Scotland, that'll do the trick!
PS To preempt any outrage I should also say that I have no doubt that any Glaswegians reading this are big enough and secure enough to chuckle at that jape without taking offence - none meant, just a bit of fun!
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perhaps since Jim Murphy the Lord of the Isles, having successfully and single handedly reversed the closure of the Camps in Benbecula could swing into action and supply money for the Glasgow rail link ????
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6. astonishedII
re Glen Campbell, the man is showing himself for the stooge that he is, he even has Wendys snarled hare lip
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I'm fairly sure that the remark about anti-Glasgow bias was made tongue-in-cheek to seek future political advantage.
Nevertheless, Edinburgh with its entrenched snobbery DOES look down on Glasgow - its people, its culture etc.
I should know. I've lived most of my life within 50 miles of Auld Reekie.
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By the way, Brian, when is this "awfully good" programme on that you mention ?
Preach it, Brother, preach it !
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Perhaps Dumb and Dumber (Gray and Kerr) could enlighten us as to where the money for the rail link will come. There is a finite amount of money available to the Scottish government but not it would appear the UK government. Gray and Kerr should be more concerned with the runaway debt–laden train, the UKplc, hitting the buffers.
From the BBC:
Chancellor Alistair Darling has forecast that public sector net borrowing will reach a record £175bn this year as the finances are hammered by recession.
However Jonathan Loynes of Capital Economics said that at the current rate of spending, borrowing would overshoot this forecast by £50bn.
Tory leader David Cameron has accused the government of "losing control of the nation's finances" as figures show public sector borrowing is soaring.
The Office for National Statistics revealed £16.1bn was borrowed in August - compared with £9.9bn in August 2008.
Downing Street says the figures are "broadly in line" with predictions and are less than the markets had expected.
It comes as Chancellor Alistair Darling begins talks with cabinet colleagues about possible spending cuts.
The latest ONS figures show UK public sector net borrowing reached £16.1bn last month - taking net borrowing to £65.3bn for the first five months of this financial year.
Budget forecasts
Government spending during August was £45.6bn - with an increase of £900m on unemployment benefits - while tax revenues slumped by 9.2% to £34.1bn.
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The linking of the cancelling of the rail link with the Commonwealth games as if this will cause the games problems is wrong. This link would take the athletes to the centre of Glasgow still miles from the main site. By the time of the Games the M74 extension will be open. This has 2 junction close to the main Games site and the fastest way from the Airport will be by coach along this road.
Have all these comments something to do with an upcoming election?
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All these moans and groans !!!
Posturing over a trainset !
It's opening the positioning for the bye-election
in Glasgow North-east.
Don't know Glasgow politics, but is the MSP for
Springburn going to stand ?
There will be more hot froth in the weeks to come !!!
Wasn't it in Springburn that RAILWAY ENGINES were built ?
Maybe Glasgow can find an old one there.
If Labour hold Glasgow North-east,Ian Gray will get one from Santa !!!
Form an opposition !
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Glasgow North East is a labour hold sadly, 5000 majority.
But the SNP candidate is:
"David Kerr (SNP) Born 1973, Glasgow. Educated at St Andrews University. BBC reporter and former Editor of Newsnight Scotland. Contested Falkirk West by-election 2000"- according to UK Polling Report
The other major candidate worth note are:
"William Bain (Labour) law lecturer"
"Ruth Davidson (Conservative) Former journalist and documentary maker, currently studying at Glasgow University."
"Eileen Baxendale (Liberal Democrat) Former social worker. South Lanarkshire councillor"
No Scottish Unionist candidate apparently (so far), so that is good for the tories; if that remains we can expect 8% (no split unionist vote).
Libbies will struggle to come 4th (Sheridan and John Swinburne both standing).
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I'm becoming more and more impressed with your blog, Brian. I might even begin to start commenting on it. ;-) I've had a look for your radio spot but can't find it.
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16. gedguy2
Brian Taylor's Big Debate
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Glasgow City Council have scored something of an own goal by seeking to find in the decision an bias against themselves. Glasgow Airport, and indeed the bulk of the new track would have been physically located in the Renfrewshire council area, not Glasgow. Hence travellers using all routes via Paisley Gilmour Street (Ayrshire and Inverclyde included) will be affected.
I'd like to see what significant moves Mr Swinney intends to make to assuage the effect of what could have been a notable reduction in CO2 emissions as a result of the rail link. As it is, road traffic to Glasgow Airport can only now only rise and rise.
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This is the opening salvo in the forthcoming (someday )by election I take it. Though why cancelling the airport rail link was considered better than cancelling the Galashiels to Newcraighall rail project which will cost considerably more and carry a fraction of the passengers is hard to understand. Both projects are untenable, unaffordable, and a total waste of public money.
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no13
the problem is the traffic on the M8. all it takes, as on a regular basis it does, is one accident on the kingston bridge or one the nearby junctions and you get back ups for miles. the M77 regularly sees tailbacks all the way to darnley.
the "anti-glasgow" tag, which is a piece on nonsense, will appear real if the forth bridge goes ahead.
one small piece of criticism however for swinney: he stated that glasgow receives more funding per head than the rest of scotland. that is the same argument used by some people in england when moaning about the subsidies scotland gets! he needs to watch what he is saying otherwise he may ramp up the argument unintentionally.
just state the facts and let labour mess themselves up as usual.
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@ 12
You couldn't make it up could you. So Downing Street say that borrowing is less than the "Markets" expected. I must rush off now and buy some shares in UK Govt plc.
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No 15 - deanthetory
Your information was good.
You say Labour will win by 5000 votes!
If that is to be the case,why didn't Labour call it
at the same time as Norwich ----?
Are you expecting a national turnaround for Labour ?
Holding your breath can give a headache,and you could
possibly come round in a nightmare !!!
Recovery years away !!!
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Frankly Brian - does this subject merit a blog?
OK there's a bit of poltiical spin an manoeuvering, and the Weegies are a bit upset at being told no for the first time in a few years - but so what?
What was the GARL going to do - wheech people to and from central Glasgow - mostly shops and a few professional firms - anyone flying into Glasgow is likely to be going further than Argyle Street - Scotland is a relatively sparsley populated and dispersed economy - even the Central Belt by home counties standards - better to have a good road network and tax incentives to run fuel efficient small vehicles for the flexibility it gives - even trolley buses for metropolitan routes - can anyone tell me why they were turned down for Embra??
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23. At 8:20pm on 18 Sep 2009, spinspamspun
Don't get me wrong, I would rather Labour lost here, but the current YouGov polling evidence simply doesnt support that.
The SNP dropped 6% immediately after the Megrahi decision- according to YouGov at least. And since then, YouGov has held another poll, which found an SNP recovery of just 1% (puting them on 26%).
Now if the SNP were still in the arena of 33% I would agree that a major 22% swing was likely, however those numbers don't support that kind of thinking.
Plus you need to consider, that the by-election is being held closer to the GE, which ought to generate a little less 'by election' voting habits; meaning potentially stronger Labour core vote loyalty.
But don't get me wrong, an SNP victory is preferable to a Labour hold.
If you liked the info I took it from UK Polling Report. A very good website, it has good information and the latest polls.
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Brian's big debate is listed on the BBC Iplayer under Radio, then Radio Scotland.
I don't know what happened to the programme two weeks ago! Although it was headlined it was never replayed on IPlayer as far as I know. Was it too politically sensitive to repeat or did someone fail to record it?
I think it wouldn't have mattered if Swinney had presented the budget standing on his head it wouldn't have suited the opposition. As someone above noted the opposition parties weren't too generous in spreading the largesse around when in power. They had their favorites too.
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19. At 6:44pm on 18 Sep 2009, Stevo wrote:
"Glasgow City Council have scored something of an own goal by seeking to find in the decision an bias against themselves. Glasgow Airport, and indeed the bulk of the new track would have been physically located in the Renfrewshire council area, not Glasgow."
Good point well made. But when did anything as sordid as reality get in the way of Glasgow Labour?
The council needs to create the SNP demon, and not just for the by-election approaching. They have been slashing budgets, closing schools and generally behaving irresponsibly and unpopular- blaming an SNP executive for descriminating aganst Glasgow, giving it little resources in comparison on Edinburgh gives them an excuse.
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24. At 8:42pm on 18 Sep 2009, Aikenheed
"to have a good road network and tax incentives to run fuel efficient small vehicles for the flexibility it gives"
Fir enough, but I'd rather see an improvement in Scottish rail infrastructure instead of mass road expansion.
But this is all irrelevant, the SNP have £500 millions fewer resources than initially thought and planned for. Thus they need to cut capital expenditure, this project had to go. It's budgetary projected costs were likely to rise inn the future.
It was a very good plan, and it should be given priority once Scotland is out of recession, but for now it was a burden that was not defensable.
HOWEVER
Priorities do matter.
What if Scottish Water was privatised? Brownlee says this would dave perhap[s £200 millions, or if Grad Endow was reintroduced saving a further £20 millions... I am opposed to privatisation of water myself, but the grad endow should go- if that money can be saved perhaps it could limit the impact on jobs being lost in greater Glasgow?
It is the biggest, most economically vital city in Scotland- shouldnt it be given greater recessionary resources to avoid major (and longterm) unemployment...as other projects are likely to go- and Glasgow may suffer further capital project cuts (some Commonwealth games rail expansion is still on the cards elsewhere remember).
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Oh dear, the whinging, whining, wegians. They receive more per head than other Scots, they cost more to keep (cause they are less healthy than average), and they still want more.
Well done Swinney, they'll have to walk to the airport thereby losing weight and reducing their burden upon the NHS. I like it.
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#28 DT - "It is the biggest, most economically vital city in Scotland"
Is this Glasgow or the greater Glasgow area - by Los Angeles standards we should be considering the entire Central Belt as one Metropolitan area with one integrated transport and economic development strategy.
Granted rail is good at narrow dedicated functions - moving people from city centre to city centre - carryng large numbers of commuters on clearly defined traffic routes - moving hi bulk lo value (no disrespect to commuters!!) about the country - but when flexibility is needed the costs start to stack up. Nobody costs the waiting time for taxis to finish the journey for example.
Rail is good - roads is bad is too simplistic
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#29 AND ANOTHER THING :)
I agree about Water - its rapidly becoming a strategic asset and hang on to what you've got seems a sensible approach
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i agree that water must, must be kept in public ownership.
best reasons against privatisation is thames water.
there are certainly other areas where cuts can be made. selling off water results in a short term gain followed by higher prices which stifles the economy.
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The Council Tax freeze seems sensible too. Brownlee and Swinney are right to want to keep this policy in place for another year.
As for Water, yep, not many want privatisation (however some polling data on this would make interesting reading).
"selling off water results in a short term gain followed by higher prices which stifles the economy"- 32. barbarian9
Agreed. Selling off state assets for short term financial boosts is utter madness. It should not be implimented.
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# 33 DT The Council Tax freeze seems sensible too
Only if you accept the status quo in regards to LA organisation.
All these Local Education Authorities (HMIe could adopt most of the responsibilities?) police & fire services and so forth - in terms of population Scotland is not much bigger than some English Counties - instead of freeze and cut perhaps now is the time for some imaginative restructuring??
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#29 Costbox "Well done Swinney" - are you a troll?
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Appears that NuLabour know the writing is on the wall down south:
Labour asked Lib Dems to prop up Gordon Brown.
Nick Clegg has claimed that Labour insiders have asked the Liberal Democrats to prop up Gordon Brown's Government.
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#33 deanthetory
If we could get enough from the sale of BBC Scotland to write off student loans, should we do so?
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#25. That would seem to ignore the later Ipsos-MORI poll Dean which had very different, and some suspect more accurate, results.
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# 36 Roll On 2010
Nice link - Clegg (wasn't he in Last of the Summer Wine?) only got the Scottish Libs to blame for that - Look at me I'm a sitting duck when it comes to sharing power
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#37 HC - who would buy ir?
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#38 JR - The only thing t5hat counts ina constituency like Glasgow north east - ie one that doesn't reflect the average demographics for the whole country - is one taken IN that constituancy - angels dancing on needles otherwise
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Aikenheed
Troll?! I'm hurt. But you've got to admire the SNP, they manage to make a crisis out of every drama. Politics has been more fun since we let them in. And it's got to be worthwhile to be able to watch the people's republic of Glasgow blub into their buckfast.
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Angus Macleod is another journalist who seems to be providing more balanced articles.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/article6840734.ece
One key council source said: “Do we think Iain Gray is going to fight for Glasgow? We very much doubt it.”
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@25 Dean
Don't know about others on here but as a signed up YouGov participant I find that I often don't have the opportunity to respond in an open and honest manner. I don't believe that there is necessarily any "loaded" questioning but there's a certain uncomfortableness about responding that gas seen me contribute on a far more infrequent basis.
Not having made a study of the methods of pollsters maybe this is actually a good thing leading to more accurate responses from a cross section of population.
Dean I know you have a keen interest in polling can you give a quick general view on methodologies? Would be interested and would help perhaps shed light on the variations between different companies. Has any method shown itself to be more reliable (online polls, face to face, telephone)?
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37. At 9:48pm on 18 Sep 2009, handclapping wrote:
#33 deanthetory
If we could get enough from the sale of BBC Scotland to write off student loans, should we do so
------
I do not believe in privatisation of Scottish water.
So, no I wouldn't sell vital public resources for short term capital boosts to government.
Besides, the BBC is an institution too sacred to 'privatise', that would be like calling for the abolition of the NHS!
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#39 Aikenheed
Aye those NuLabour muppets have seen how well it worked up Scotland they tried to use it down south.
Either that or they know they are toast. The latter in my opinion.
I don’t think I will ever be able to watch last of the summer wine again without seeing Cleggie as a LibDem.
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# 42 Costbox If I'm wrong I apologise. Still a bit inflammatory if succinctly put?
You're doubly sure about the troll bit - you didn't deny it exactly?
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36 Roll-on 2010
Are you serious about LibDem talks?
Only problem I have is that you used the past tense of "ask".
However it would seem like a "new dawn" if no party had a majority,
and all MP's had free votes !!!
Advise where to go to see the Clegg/Brown proposals !!!
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44. At 10:23pm on 18 Sep 2009, BlooToon
You are right to mention the variations in methods.
Phone based polling is innacurate due to it being more open to abuse than other potential methods.
A good example of this is the American poll conducted by 'Public Policy Forum' which managed to find a result where "8% of New Jersy citizens believe Obama to be the anti-Christ".
This exposes that phone polling is massively open to obvious abuse.
But also the questions, how they are asked is equally important.
This is why I like YouGov polls on Scottish Independence, because they make a point of using the SNPs' prefered question- the recent findings result in 28% for independence. This makes such findings more acceptable, becuase the question asked is not stacked; not created to project favour or disfavour in the wording.
So wording and method is important. I make a habit of looking at weighting and size also.
The smaller the sample size the less accurate and more irrelevant the poll becomes.
A good example of this is any Scottish sample in UK wide polling. They are usually less than 200.
One problem with YouGov however is in these Scottish samples (of UK wide polls); they wieght according to a balance of the 2005 election outcome. However even then, this never works out quite right- for longterm (and not momentary Scottish opinion) you best go to a TNS system three.
(But due I find their methodology poorer to react to public opinion shifts).
So:
Always check the questions wordings (and answer options)
Always check the sample size (and wieghting)
NEVER trust a ComRes poll (I find them the most innaccurate of all major UK polsters)
And never trust phone polls EVER.
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GARL promoters under fire as costs balloon
Glasgow Airport Rail Link thread
It seems to of been ill thought out from the start by poor costings and actual projected use. I believe the locals didn't want it and according to a local councilor who also stated that the area was a bog and they were having difficulty in finding a solid foundation. This reminds me of the M6 which was delayed for 5 years with a similar problem of driving piles to get down to the hard, maybe the recession has come to the rescue on this one.
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# 43 Oldnat "One key council source said: “Do we think Iain Gray is going to fight for Glasgow? We very much doubt it.”"
Ian Gray's job isn't to fight for Glasgow but to aspire to be the FM of the whole of Scotland - possibly this is a (backhanded ) compliment?
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45. deanthetory
"Besides, the BBC is an institution too sacred to 'privatise',"
Passed its sell by date and should be put in a museum.
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Someone remind me but did Edinburgh's Airport Rail link not get knocked on the head a couple of years back too. The leader or Glasgow council needs to put the dolly's back in the pram me thinks.
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#48 spinspamspun
I have included a link in my post @ 36.
Here it is again
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#46 Roll On 2010 - Now you come to think of it cleggie probably is a Lib Dem - plastic mac and good intentions - very probably - probably
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#45 deanthetory
You cannot be serious! The NHS is useful, what use is the BBC (BwB excepted)?
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Just think what you will miss when you get Independence:
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#55 Aikenheed
Reckon that would make Compo Labour. Now I will always think of Compo whenever I see Gray!
Guess that’s put me off Last of the Summer Wine completely.
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56. At 11:21pm on 18 Sep 2009, handclapping wrote:
#45 deanthetory
"You cannot be serious! The NHS is useful, what use is the BBC (BwB excepted)?"
The BBC is a vital public service broadcaster. Panorama, newsnight, question time are all essential public services.
The BBC as an institution draws people together, helps educate the electorate (as opposed to Sky- which merely gives people whatever a consumerist desire seeks).
It is vital that news and informative programming is distributed through non-profit methods. Profit is not the great safegaurd of democracy as James Murdoch would have us all believe!
However:
post Dr Kelly the BBC has lost too much independence in broadcasting, and has become too nervious of scandal.
It spends too much public money attempting to relentlessly expand into non-essential areas of public broadcast media; and has outgrown itself in many key respects
But a world without BBC? A media market dominated by a consumerist utopian version as per Murdoch and Sky? No thank you. I'll have good old auntie-beeb to fox news anyday...and as for the (many) problems, REFORM!
Afterall I believe all reform should strengthen not destroy what is essential in ending the gap in understanding in our society, the BBC is vital in creating One Nation. Free from a lack of empathy and mutual understanding.
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#41. At 10:13pm on 18 Sep 2009, Aikenheed wrote:
#38 JR - The only thing t5hat counts ina constituency like Glasgow north east - ie one that doesn't reflect the average demographics for the whole country - is one taken IN that constituancy - angels dancing on needles otherwise
I didn't mention Glasgow NE, just pointed out to Dean that there was a very solid looking poll than different results than he was quoting. My only prediction for Glasgow NE is that probably--someday--they will let the people have an election and be represented again. But apparently for some reason Labour doesn't seem to be very eager.
They may very well have private poll results but I wouldn't know that. I just know that they're not in ANY hurry to let these people vote.
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@56
In the spirit of this thread scrapping the BBC would be very Anti-Glasgow. Not only the new Beeb studios but a massive Scottish Enterprise investment in establishing Glasgow as a centre of excellence (with a significant part of this predicated on BBC regional policy punting more work to Glasgow).
Problem is we end up with never ending Ford Kiernan "vehicles". And I'll stop there before I say something to upset Mr Purcell regards the distribution of funding to support the broadcast/screen industry in Scotland.
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"STV plans to resurrect idea of Scottish Six news bulletin"
http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/stv-plans-to-resurrect-idea-of-scottish-six-news-bulletin-1.920636
Still requires funding from London, but good thet the proposal has been raised again.
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actually have to agree with Dean red BBC and need for a meaningful public service broadcaster. It could do with a serious reconsideration of it's nations and regions policy though.
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Since Glasgow is the largest City in Scotland and by this same token of definition the largest spender of Public Money.
Then why is it of any surprise to anyone too find that Glasgow also has to endure it share of Budget Cut's, and if People don't like the idea of this cancellation of the Air-Port Rail Link, then where or what else would they cancel to reduce future Spending with indifference to what is being proposed?
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Talking of Glasgow has reminded me of another event I read on this blog some time ago and at the time read a couple of newspaper articles.
Does anybody know what happened about ‘Paddy’s Market’ in Glasgow?
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I have to shake my head at the lack of perception of the real issue by so many people - yes the Glasgow rail link was cancelled, but Brian is spot on the mark when he mentioned the Edinburgh Tram project. Remember that the SNP government wanted this total waste of money cancelled, but in a fit of total pique, the politicians that had just been voted out of power banded together to vote the motion down. That committed the Government to spend at least 500 million pounds on a scheme that was cobbled together and commisioned by the then Labour Edinburgh Council.
That was a complete disgrace by petted lip politicians, and the public will remember who committed the edinburgh council-tax payers to this project. Remind me how much the Tram (deliberately singular) is costing...??? Now remind me how much the shortfall in the Scottish budget is??? Hmmmmm.......
Finally, remember that it was the politicians whose constituents were not hide-bound to pay for the over-runs who voted to force that project through. What noise would the opposition be making if they did not want the project in the first place, and the government forced it through...???
Bunch of pots and kettles, if you ask me....
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ps - it is very good, Brian.....
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Would it be better if the Scottish government handed the entire commonwealth games project over to Glasgow council, it may be the obvious thing to do considering! and the right thing for Glasgow.
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Have any of you read this article:
Is it Time for the Labour Party to Reclaim the English Flag?
A number of the comments are interesting.
NuLabour must be getting desperate!
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I dont know what they are complaining about. They live in Glasgow, the rail link would have benefited east coasters more than them as we can often find much cheaper flights from Glasgow than Edinburgh but the cost and hassle of getting there just now negates the savings. Seems to me eveyone looses out of this cut, but plenty of people would be moaning if the government spent beyond our means.
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Goodnight.
Another day awaits !
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#69. At 00:22am on 19 Sep 2009, Roll_On_2010 wrote:
Have any of you read this article:
Is it Time for the Labour Party to Reclaim the English Flag?
I have and what I found fascinating was this comment in the article itself: What about England; what about what it means to be English; what about English values, and; what about the ‘Governance of England’, in addition to the ‘Governance of Britain’?
Does this imply to you that Labour has given up on Scotland? It sure implies it to me. If I were Scottish Labourites I'd be just a tad upset.
However there was also at least one comment in which the commenter seemed to have a hard time with the concept that Scotland isn't part of England. I've noticed this among certain English before--the feeling among many English that at some point Scotland became nothing more than an English province and that there is no difference in the words British and English.
(no offense--just an observation. Not saying it's right)
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Honest John and the whole in the wall mob are well short with their budget figures.Did honest John have a large deposit with one Iceland bank?.
Hi Ho Silver away! Ho Ho Ho
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As the city that created much of the wealth of Scotland through it's heavy industry, I find it appalling that people have such a negative opinion of Glasgow.
I'm a Glaswegian and obviously a Scotsman. I have no objection to capital projects throughout Scotland. The Skye Bridge, the Edinburgh Tramway, the Motorway through Glasgow, etc etc
Some people I know, refer to those outside Glasgow as being anti- Glasgow. They say they have a chip on the shoulder. They say they are country bumpkins. I have rebuked this.
I'm bound to say, that some of the comments on this blog reinforce the arguments of the people I resist.
Country bumpkins? It looks like it.
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#75. You don't have any objection to the comments by Steven Purcell though?
And I take it that you don't think people should have reacted to his accusations?
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I am 60 years old and have lived in Lancashire for all those years. I do not feel that there is that feeling.
What has stoked this, over recent years, has been the prominence of the SNP. The media have used this to stoke up a negative effect. Primarily it has been centred around the money that Scotland gets through the Joel Barnett formula, and as you will have recognised more recently through the Ali-Megrahi release.
My experience has been that at grass roots level many people do recognised that Scotland is a country, albeit part of the UK.
But in summary I am probably not the best qualified to answer your question, I do see Scotland through rose tinted spectacles, and to a certain degree as a romanticist. Both my parents are Scottish who came down to England during the war and decided to stay.
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OK, where is the missing 200m for the affordable housing project John?.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/8263264.stm
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Sorry forgot to add that my blog @ #77 was for JRMacClure @ #73
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And the big six are looking forward to winter.
http://news.scotsman.com/latestnews/Power-firms-to-grab-34bn.5661817.jp
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#78 giggletheloneranger
OK, where is the missing 200m for the affordable housing project John?.
I think you will find that those NuLabour numpties at Westmidden have short changed you…..again
By the way were is Tonto, he will probably tell you the same.
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#80 derekbarker
But don’t forget Derek, Duff Gordon had a chat with them last year, so it could have been worse….I think?
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#80 derekbarker
If it looks like a cartel, and smells like a cartel ......
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#77. At 02:00am on 19 Sep 2009, Roll_On_2010 wrote:
I am 60 years old and have lived in Lancashire for all those years. I do not feel that there is that feeling.
--------------
Perhaps not, Roll_On, but I've seen comments that make that appearance. I've seen many times (and nothing to do with politics) when "British" is used as nothing more than as a synonym for "English" and I'm not talking about on this side of the pond. That may be a small minority, but it is a noticeable one.
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#83 oldnat and #84 JRMacClure
Do either of you have any insight into the following:
Beware Roman Empire Union
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I assume (and how poorly that is written is shown by getting the union name wrong) that they're talking about the Service Employees International Union. They pulled their 2.1 million members out of the AFL-CIO about four years ago.
How that constitutes a "raid" I have no idea. They have unionized people who have always been considered "unionionizable" in this country. How good they are as a union, I'm not sure, but frankly, anything that slaps down the AFL-CIO can't be all bad. (The extent of problems in that organization would be difficult to describe) I can tell you that Andy Stern who is head of the SEIU was an early critic of banking practices, again not something I would criticize.
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#84 JRMacClure
Recently I made a reference to ‘The American Dream’. I must apologies it was OTT, but I had just read a document and was fairly hacked off (to put it mildly) with it.
The document in fact I retrieved from a link I think you supplied, The Washington Independent:
The 2004 CIA Inspector General Report on Torture, took them 5 years to obtain and is heavily redacted.
Notwithstanding the graphic description/methods of torture in the document, it appears to me to be the template for what subsequently happened.
This Cartoon encapsulates my feelings.
I am not for one minute pointing my finger at you or the American people in general, but at the idiots under Bush that ran your country.
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#86. un-unionizable I meant. Not an easy word to type. lol
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Any I will have to leave you now its 04:30am in this part of the world time to hit the sack.
But I feel sure we wil talk again. Good night or should that be morning.
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A eulogy to Brian Wilson.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/scotland/article6832197.ece
I did like this bit,
His antipathy to devolution remains undiminished.
“I do just dislike the whole thing,” he says. “When I see the pathetic legislative programme, I think what is that about? We have all the pomp and paraphernalia of a parliament, and then there is this miserable list of things that could just as easily have been dealt with at half past 11 at night in Westminster.
His assessment of Scotland's needs is rather plain.
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I had missed this article in last week's Sunday Times
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/scotland/article6832253.ece
but Joan MacAlpine was absolutely right to say "Our negativity, if it did exist, has certainly diminished in the last couple of years. It was a temporary political construct rather than a cultural characteristic. Unlike conquered countries, Scotland needed to justify its reluctance to take control of its own destiny. We were told we are too small, too poor, too “lacking in confidence” to survive without subsidy from our larger southern neighbour. But self-belief is all in the mind — as any sports psychologist will tell you."
Brian wilson clearly needs a psychologist (sports or otherwise) to counteract his cringe.
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#87. At 03:50am on 19 Sep 2009, Roll_On_2010 wrote:
#84 JRMacClure
Recently I made a reference to ‘The American Dream’. I must apologies it was OTT, but I had just read a document and was fairly hacked off (to put it mildly) with it.
The document in fact I retrieved from a link I think you supplied, The Washington Independent:
The 2004 CIA Inspector General Report on Torture, took them 5 years to obtain and is heavily redacted.
Notwithstanding the graphic description/methods of torture in the document, it appears to me to be the template for what subsequently happened.
This Cartoon encapsulates my feelings.
I am not for one minute pointing my finger at you or the American people in general, but at the idiots under Bush that ran your country.
Unfortunately, I don't think you can blame it only on Bush. We, the American people, let him do what he did and supported him while he did it. (Ok, I didn't, but a majority did)
And was it the first time? I think Mai Lai and other atrocities have been mentioned from time to time. Right now, we can't even bring the people who did these things to justice.
I have occasionally pointed out that the British (using that word has gotten me in trouble but I can hardly blame it only on the Scots) have done their share of evil in the world.
http://irishnationalcaucus.blogspot.com/2009/06/victim-of-british-torture-tells-of-life.html I won't say more about that since I don't think anything that your country has done wrong in the least excuses what mine has.
I have neither answers nor excuses. I will tell you the truth. I frequently despair.
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1.15 am here in NC! JR, You are on your own till the Scottish morning shift checks in. Goodnight.
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Scotland has to cancell the Glasgow rail, estimated cost £40 000 000.
Crosrail in London, estimated cost £ 13 000 000 000.
Labour has its priorities, and Scotland aint one of them!
D McN
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# 59 deanthetory
I agree. It doesn't need to be abolished but reformed.
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As some on this blog have already alluded to, this is nothing more than a cynical and thinly veiled attempt to sway voters opinions ahead of the Springburn by-election in November.
Labour have denied the people of Glasgow the right of representation - yet the Norwich by-election was held post haste - another classic example to illustrate clearly how much disdain the incumbent UK government have for Glasgow and Scotland.
Leaving this by-election to mere months before the next General election is not only farcical - it's contemptable. Labour clearly have fear driving thier decision making prcocesses now. It's all about damage control and to that end, they do not care a jot who suffers as a consequence.
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Apparently Jim Murphy has two committees looking at Calman and its implementation. Will we have a situation when this new law is being formulated and passed that English civil servants and MPs are once again involved in dictating a new constitution for Scotland? What will be in the small print? Will Scotland have any say in this, or will it just be foisted on us by a Westminster government which is intent in retaining all the strings of power?
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Re 62 Oldnat
The new proposal from STV has little to do with improving Scottish news, it is about saving money. This will be the end of North Tonight from Aberdeen which will be reduced to a 10 minute slot for its own half hour programme.
I wonder how much non-central belt news will make the new programme? This is another abhorrent move from a failed broadcaster. They have dropped many ITV shows and produced crap to replace them. I had the misfortune to see a Lorraine Kelly programme about someone tracing their father which repeated the gist of the show after each ad break, it was like something from daytime TV. utter rubbish.
A tartan badge doesn't make better TV. STV should be pulled up by the government for the rubbish they are putting on, endless repeats, look at the debacle with the football.
But anything with a Scottish badge seems to be able to satisfy some. For those of us living in Scotland having to watch the rubbish, thanks but no thanks.
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80. derekbarker
"And the big six are looking forward to winter.
http://news.scotsman.com/latestnews/Power-firms-to-grab-34bn.5661817.jp"
Consumers to pay for new nuclear power plants
"John Large, an independent consultant on nuclear energy, estimated that supporting new nuclear power stations would cost households “significantly more” that the £15 charged to subsidise renewables."
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Interesting this arguement about Capital Spending Projects, and the future Cuts being necessary in Public Spending.
So, O.K. we are having to endure a Cut in Glasgow with the lost of the new Air-Port Link, so therefore in return to show a balance of fair lost, then let's have some Cut's in Stratford East London, and cut back on any improvements to London's Transport links prior to the next Olympic Games.
After all, fair is fair isn't it?
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Re STV's proposals for an hour-long evening news programme -
a radical overhaul of Scottish programming along the proposed lines is long overdue.
Some, such as Labour's Anne Begg have jumped to the defence of "the North East's half-hour news programme".
But the Grampian TV region covers the entire geographical north of Scotland, including the Northern and Western Isles, and most of the Highlands. Is it fitting for that entire area to be subject to local Aberdeen news?
Having lived for decades in both the Lothians and Aberdeen, I always found news in the central and south of the country to be dominated by an ill-fitting Glasgow bias, but found it even more odd that local Aberdeen stories should be broadcast daily to the entire north of the country.
Did you never find that incongruous, Northhighlander?
The proposed new programme is scheduled to include 10 minutes of local news for the Highlands, North-East and Tayside - which I believe is far more appropriate to the diversity of Scotland than the current arrangements, and should provide reasonably adequate scope for 'local news' given that significantly less time has traditionally been allocated to the 'Scottish news' slot following most 'UK' news broadcasts.
The remainder of the STV programme, I would hope, should deliver national and international stories in a similarly 'professional' way to BBC or ITN news, but directed at a Scotland-wide audience with a global outlook (not dissimilar to most current BBC Scotland programmes), as befits a modern, self-aware and forward-looking Scotland.
Northhighlander, I wholly agree with your disdainful view of 'daytime TV', of which there is far too much in our daily schedules.
However, we should be raising our Scottish broadcasting aspirations way above 'sticking a tartan badge' on that kind of insipid bilge.
The last thing week need is Scottish programming that apes that wholly disposable 'daytime' diet. Instead, we require more quality programming, both factual and entertaining, that reflects both our diversity and national identity in a way vastly improved from what we have at present.
Currently, there is far too little TV being produced in Scotland, either for export or the home market, and too much systemmatic blandness, in no small way dominated by relentlessly anglocentric tones - a situation that requires to change.
Increased quality Scottish programme-making would not only bring the core benefits of jobs, skills and expertise, but have real potential to enrich our culture, and not least to present a higher-profile and better-understood Scotland to the wider world.
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LondonHaris @100:
"So, O.K. we are having to endure a Cut in Glasgow with the lost of the new Air-Port Link, so therefore in return to show a balance of fair lost, then let's have some Cut's in Stratford East London, and cut back on any improvements to London's Transport links prior to the next Olympic Games.
After all, fair is fair isn't it?"
-------------------------
When English folk have appeared on here and complained about the Scots getting free prescriptions, no tuition fees or whatever, when they in England don't have such benefits, they have received short shrift and the same response: Scotland has its own government and will decide its own spending priorities.
You are now seeing the other side of that coin. This cut is a decision of the Scottish government, nothing to do with Londoners or the English, who will see cuts of their own, but which may not be in the same areas. You really can't have it both ways.
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#102 MalcolmW2
The views of "Londoners or the English" have no bearing on the tough economic choices of a squeezed Scottish economy for precisely that reason - although they are being forced by the magnitude of the cut imposed by Westminster upon the Scottish budget.
However since, as you helpfully point out, some in England frequently "complain about the benefits" received by the Scottish people, can we have some examples of key projects which are now facing the axe elsewhere in the UK through lack of available funds?
As I think LondonHarris only fairly suggests, will any responsible restrictions be applied to the obscenely spiralling costs of the London Olympics??
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In last Mondays Evening Times that paper called for Glasgow to have parity with Edinburgh, and receive an additional £3.5 Million to spend on hosting street events, a fair enough request one would think at first glance. Their front page illustrated exactly why Glasgow should receive nothing of the sort. The picture shown of Edinburgh shows crowds welcoming home successful Scottish athletes, something we expect to happen in the capital city, where they host these events on behalf of the whole of Scotland. The picture of Glasgow shows a sectarian march, divisive, unwelcome and unnecessary. Why should the Scottish taxpayer have to contribute so that Glasgow can host more sectarian marches than Belfast and Londonderry combined? In the case of Republican marches, these people are indeed ANTI-Scottish, so please tell the rest of the country why WE should fund this? Sectarianism is like cancer and should be cut out. Perhaps we in the rest of the country should have a "Not a penny more" campaign to show how much we disagree with our money being used to offset the cost of these marches? Should Glasgow wish to continue hosting Irish themed parades then it should be done behind closed doors. Let these organisations hire the SECC, sell tickets and march around in there to their hearts content, at minimal cost to the taxpayer. That money could be better used elsewhere, the roads for a start.
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104. At 2:32pm on 19 Sep 2009, AirdrieJester
"Should Glasgow wish to continue hosting Irish themed parades then it should be done behind closed doors"
Very nice sounding phrase, one which I understand. But how would you do it?
You cannot prevent people from expressing themselves, if they do so in a legal way.
Are you advocating making all and any "Irish themed parades" illegal in Glasgow, or Scotland more widely?
Sounds dangerous stuff frankly.
"In the case of Republican marches, these people are indeed ANTI-Scottish, so please tell the rest of the country why WE should fund this?"
It is indeed quite unScottish, and we would be better off without it all.
But my point as per last still stands, what can we actually do to prevent these marches? Making these marches illegal could have dangerous ramafications for freedom of speech, and yes this includes the freedom to be offensive.
You need to offer solutions, we know all of this and agree that these marches are dispicable- but what is there to be done?
"In last Mondays Evening Times that paper called for Glasgow to have parity with Edinburgh, and receive an additional £3.5 Million to spend on hosting street events"
I wouldn't trust Glasgow Council to spend the money fairly, wisely and properly. So I too agree this proposal is unacceptable.
"The picture of Glasgow shows a sectarian march, divisive, unwelcome and unnecessary"
I would ask you to remember, and would like to remind everyone else, that these people are a minority of Glasgow folk. They do not represent me, or the vast majority.
So for you to say the whole of Glasgow is somehow unwelcoming, bigoted marching bands is utter tripe.
I reject that firmly. The days of a Protestant tory Glasgow and a Catholic Labour Glasgow is over. Today everyone is a Labourite, regardless of religion.
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First of all Iain Gray says Labour will just have to accept the ditching of GARL then almost on the same breath he changes his mind. Now Andy Kerr says he will do everything to see that it goes ahead. Labour facing both ways at the same time again. Kerr has put his reputation on the line so it will be interesting to learn what projects he wants to cut to achieve his objective.
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Brian:
I think that these politicans are not telling the truth, but I am not an accusations; they are trying to make a point.....With the public.
=Dennis Junior=
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The ghastly Edinburgh light railway (let's get this straight: "trams" are buses that run on rails; this is a three-coach railway machine with very limited stops - a TRAIN track down Princes Street, costing more than Holyrood, and replacing just ONE bus route) was, as others have said already, forced into existence by opposition politicians, and is horrifically unpopular in the city.
The same opposition politicians who foisted this horror on us are now complaining that their Glasgow heartland was left out... of their own decision to foist an unpopular project on the east of the country?
They WANT it? They can HAVE it!!
I propose a solution to make everyone happy: the failway trains can be shipped to Glasgow instead, and the remaining funding can go with them. They can even borrow the Edinburgh Council roads department personnel who're implementing it. It would go nicely with their motorway flyovers through the town centre, and the mysterious lack of an actual dual-carriageway road that joins up all the way to the West Highlands.
Any takers?
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DeanTheTory, Glasgow CC has basically said that it cannot afford the continued burden of policing sectarian marches, and wishes the taxpayers of the rest of Scotland to pay up for Glasgow, as the saying goes.
The suggestion of the relevant organisations hiring a venue and incurring the costs themselves has been raised many times and is workable, but no doubt unnaceptable to those who wish to blow flutes and wave banners in our faces.
Plans are already being made for football clubs to pick up more and more of the tab as regards stewarding and security, this was once unthinkable, but is becoming a reality.
Time for the bigots to move with the times as well?
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the recent postings on this blog show that labour unwittingly have managed to split opinion within scotland, which is precisely what they need to do to hit the snp vote.
when a country with ambitions of independence starts to argue with itself, then that will polarise voters.
glasgow has a significant number of holyrood seats, and kerr is deliberately stirring things up since he has realised that there is now an unexpected opportunity to attack the snp.
what worries me is that unlike the lockerbie bomber, labour are not really making fools of themselves - well yet!
the media will stir this up as an "east vs west" problem, with the implication that the snp are favouring edinburgh and the north. swinnet cannot now go ahead with the forth bridge, as that will make things worse.
i've worked in both glasgow and edinburgh, and there is a bit of rivalry. politicians will now play upon this.
despite being a reasonable decision, what is the betting that labour will say "look, the scottish government messed up diageo, they've cancelled the railway, the finance secretary has stated that glasgow receives more funding than anyone else.....".
most people until last week weren't really aware of the rail link, or at least it was not uppermost in their minds. now its taken on epic proportions.
oh and i wish clegg would wind his neck in. the last thing we want up here is for the lib dems to split the opposition to labour vote and allow them to sneak in again, however unlikely. attack brown, not cameron.
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'Brown cost taxpayers £3 trillion'
"One of the authors, Matthew Elliott, founder and chief executive of campaigning group the TaxPayers' Alliance, said: "It would be easy to dismiss the figure of £3 trillion as being too big to contemplate or unreasonably high, but to do so would be to ignore the sheer scale of the financial disaster that 12 years of Gordon Brown's tax-a-lot and spend-more policies have done to the British economy"
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#110. At 5:09pm on 19 Sep 2009, barbarian9 wrote:
I think you have an excellent point. I've been appalled at what I'm seeing.
Honestly. Does someone actually think that the SNP hates Glasgow? That is absurd a proposition as I've ever heard in my life.
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#110 barbarian9
"the recent postings on this blog show that labour unwittingly have managed to split"
I wouldn't go along with that. In every country, there are local dimensions, but the argument here actually demonstrates that us political geeks will argue over anything!
The fact that we are discussing such pretty trivial issues demonstrates that Swinney has done a pretty good job with his Budget proposals. The other parties don't have any really serious issues to deal with, and Swinney will have kept money in the pot to satisfy Con, and Greens to get the Budget through.
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110. At 5:09pm on 19 Sep 2009, barbarian9
You make a good number of well worded points. Not least:
"oh and i wish clegg would wind his neck in. the last thing we want up here is for the lib dems to split the opposition to labour vote and allow them to sneak in again, however unlikely. attack brown, not cameron."
But then calamity Clegg probably now realises that every vote they lose in Scotland needs to be found in England. This ain't going to happen.
Scotland doesnt need the liberals besides, on the centre-left you have labour and the SNP, on the centre-right the tories.
Why have this extra party which is neither liberal or democratic?
109. At 4:50pm on 19 Sep 2009, AirdrieJester
"Time for the bigots to move with the times as well?"
Well thats the whole point isn't it? That they are bigots because they do not move with the times.
Look if someone wants to blow a flute and celebrate the boyne (which was a strategically irrelevant battle in the war in Ireland anyway) that is their business. It is not for me or you to tell them they can't anymore.
Its called freedom of speech, you either have it or you don't.
"Plans are already being made for football clubs to pick up more and more of the tab"
Why should they?! Rangers and Celtic do not encourage bigotry, nor do they even maintain sectarian highering policies. The divisive songs are now banned in stadium- if they are sung the clubs get fined.
Why should these clubs be held responsible for thse thugs when they do everything they can to discourage them?
Surely you'd be better placed turning your fire on the failing educationb system in Glasgow, for allowing this kind of ignorance to perpetuate. Or even the families who instil these poor values in their kids?
Leave an already financially weak Scottish football alone for goodness sake.
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113. At 6:12pm on 19 Sep 2009, oldnat
"Swinney will have kept money in the pot to satisfy Con, and Greens to get the Budget through."
Thats why the council tax freeze is being maintained for a third year I bet! What Goldie calls for the SNP government provides- its a charming relationship.
;)
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I was a bit taken aback by the decision, but in the current economic climate it makes sense.
Irrespective of if and when this link is built, it needs to be reviewed because there were extra benefits by extending the currently planned line. Renfrew and Braehead are not that far away, why could they have not been included in the original plan in some sort fof dynamic loop as rail planners put it. The original plan was a bit myopic in my view. In the long run this may be more expensive however the longer term benefits could outweigh the cost.
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83. oldnat
"#80 derekbarker
If it looks like a cartel, and smells like a cartel ......"
Which is why an independent Scotland should have a formally established position of principle on some set of fundamental resources which should not be in the hands of for-profit, private organisations.
Most would, i'm confident, agree about this where water is the resource in question. What about the domestic energy market? Acceptable? A step too far? Out of the hands of profiteers altogether in my opinion!
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Re my #113
My unintentional truncation of barbarian's words actually read rather well!
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I see my 72 post has been referred. Apparently I'm not allowed to voice my suspicions about the postal vote in Glenrothes and a further worry that the delay in calling the Glasgow North East election allows for all sort of things to go on.
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#113. At 6:12pm on 19 Sep 2009, oldnat wrote:
#110 barbarian9
"the recent postings on this blog show that labour unwittingly have managed to split"
I wouldn't go along with that. In every country, there are local dimensions, but the argument here actually demonstrates that us political geeks will argue over anything!
The fact that we are discussing such pretty trivial issues demonstrates that Swinney has done a pretty good job with his Budget proposals. The other parties don't have any really serious issues to deal with, and Swinney will have kept money in the pot to satisfy Con, and Greens to get the Budget through.
Haha! Good point, oldnat.
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WARDOG
"Steven Purcell, the Labour leader on Glasgow City Council, expected Mr Gray and his supporters to make clear that they would withhold their support from Mr Swinney's package unless he agreed to restore the funding for the Glasgow Airport Rail Link to the Scottish Government's Budget."
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As a proud Glaswegian and someone who wants to see my city thrive I have to say that cancelling the rail link is the right decision. Of course I'd love to have a rail link, cities in England have had airport rail links for years. You can get to Manchester airport from Glasgow Central easily, so why didn't the unionists build one here years ago?
But now we find ourselves in an economic crisis that the SNP did not create, but they must govern through it and rightly choose to protect vital services.
Rather than fight Scot against Scot we should ask: where has all the money gone over the tyears ?
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#121 CynicalHighlander
Fascinating link: "After having already made the blunder of supporting and driving through the Edinburgh Tram project, creating excessive commercial turmoil in the capital just when it needed tourism more than ever, Scottish Labour now seem to be on a spending bender with no details of what they'd cut to pay for the GARL project."
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122. At 7:00pm on 19 Sep 2009, govanite
"Rather than fight Scot against Scot we should ask: where has all the money gone over the tyears ?"
Well £20 millions per year has been sucked away by the SNP policy abolishing the grad endow.
... and a further £200 millions has went on keeping Scottish water in public ownership....
then there is Scottish enterprise, but the numbers for that perticular project I do not have unfortunately.
My point is only that the money from Holyrood has been pulled away in many directions- and the SNP do carry the can for spending in these areas.
It is hardly scot vs scot to criticise how the SNP spend public money. It is merely a matter of priority.
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121. At 6:57pm on 19 Sep 2009, cynicalHighlander
"I'd be surprised if Gray makes it to the 2011 Scottish Elections, it's becoming increasingly evident that the west coast power base of Labour are not content with his leadership or for that matter his supporters like Richard Baker and Lord Foulkes antics"
- Wardog
Nor should they be!
But the westcoast of Scotland was much better served when people voted for the party which best delivered the services which mattered.
However many vote Labour (and will eternally) becuase it is "the working mans party", apparently these voters need enlightened about PPP and PFI!
...or indeed Labours failures to challenge the trades union laws...
I always enjoy Wardogs' contributions, even during the times I'm arguing with him.
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Mr Purcell and the Labour party need to be very careful with this anti-Glasgow stance as it could damage Glasgow greatly. Yes it appeals to the hardcore Labour voter, everyone hates us mentality but its just not the case. I usually use Glasgow airport for holiday flights but driving to the airport means I have no use for a rail link but if Mr Purcell et al are stirring up this then does he wish for me and thousands more like me to perhaps use Edinburgh airport?
This anti Glasgow line was used all day by BBC Scotland after the announcement, once more showing its political bias, this being the case perhaps the time is coming for another can pay wont pay campaign as I cannot see why I should be subsidising the Labour party propaganda wing with my licence fee.
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#124. At 7:13pm on 19 Sep 2009, deanthetory wrote:
122. At 7:00pm on 19 Sep 2009, govanite
"Rather than fight Scot against Scot we should ask: where has all the money gone over the tyears ?"
Well £20 millions per year has been sucked away by the SNP policy abolishing the grad endow.
... and a further £200 millions has went on keeping Scottish water in public ownership....
then there is Scottish enterprise, but the numbers for that perticular project I do not have unfortunately.
My point is only that the money from Holyrood has been pulled away in many directions- and the SNP do carry the can for spending in these areas.
It is hardly scot vs scot to criticise how the SNP spend public money. It is merely a matter of priority.
---------------------------------
Absolutely true. Of course, some might call doing away with the grad endow and keeping water in public hands good investments in the future of Scotland but THAT is a legitimate debate. They are points well worth discussing.
Does the SNP hate Glasgow is NOT.
And where on BBC is the debate on whether water being kept public? I sure missed THAT headline although they were happy to try to fuel the anti-Glasgow insanity.
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#121 cynicalHighlander
Thanks for the link. Via Wardog I also found Conan the Librarian's site - Pseudepigrapha - great spoof Hootsmon front pages!
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Presenting "Rise of the Nutters" by Polly Toynbee
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/sep/19/libdems-nick-clegg-politics
What a load of Guardian tripe....gods the leftwing bias media really does get as desperate as the right wing rags.
Give me cold, analytical, impartial news anyday. Well, the Herald gets it right occassionally...and for all other times there is the telegraph
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My. My, the train link was a costed part of the overall budget as was the missing 200m for additional affordable housing, 37Bn budget and a litany of missing manifesto pledges. Why? where has the real budget go?
who is the weakest link!
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deanthetory re 124
I have seen some rubbish posted by you here but this take the top prize.
... and a further £200 millions has went on keeping Scottish water in public ownership....
Maybe you can explain how money we have never had, and are unlikely to ever have from Scottish Water, is "money gone" It may have escaped your notice but the last time this was suggested opinion polls put the numbers opposed at over 90%. This was a few years ago now. but I doubt that these numbers have shifted.
As has been posted here before, 200ml is a short term peanuts gain, but the vast potential of Scotland's water would be lost to the Scottish people forever. The unjustifiable large bills for every Scot would also be forever.
The torys have destroyed the water industry in England, all companies there are foreign owned, the reason they are foreign owned is because in rip off Britain they can make profits that they are not able to make in their home market.
Funny Forsyth has only put his head above the parapet recently, and already the North British branch of the nasty party are adopting two of his flagship policies.
All power to Forsyths elbow, he destroyed the torys single handedly in the ninety's, he is starting to do just as good a job again.
The only people likely to vote for this are those who think they can get a good number on the board of a privatized company. The rest of us have more common sense.
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129. deanthetory
"Presenting "Rise of the Nutters" by Polly Toynbee"
She's their leader.
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Re the Polly Toynbee story. Just when did the Lib Dems "start controlling outright" Edinburgh?
I must have missed that. I must have been distracted by the Labour/Lib Dem/Tory trams.
There is also another angle to the "SNP hates Glasgow" argument. How about the Labour party are only interested in Glasgow and are not interested in the rest of Scotland. Could be a good argument on the doorsteps at the general election.
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130. giggletheloneranger
"affordable housing"
A name tag I am still unable to comprehend, the only affordable housing used to be council owned not private.
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Come on people it's not that hard to spot, crumbs, the entire business and economic communities are very aware of just how incompetent the SNP government is in governance.
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131. At 8:12pm on 19 Sep 2009, dubbieside
" have seen some rubbish posted by you here but this take the top prize.
... and a further £200 millions has went on keeping Scottish water in public ownership....
Maybe you can explain how money we have never had, and are unlikely to ever have from Scottish Water, is "money gone" It may have escaped your notice but the last time this was suggested opinion polls put the numbers opposed at over 90%."
Perhaps you could do me the courtesy of reading my contributions more closely in the future. Especially since I have already explained that I personally do not support privatisation of Scottish Water.
Of those figures, your right the majority almost certainly do continue to oppose de-nationalisation, I doubt they have shifted much.
"Funny Forsyth has only put his head above the parapet recently, and already the North British branch of the nasty party are adopting two of his flagship policies"
Forsyth is a dinosaur who is irrelevant. Sorry if you cannot accept that, but we have a fresh and new generation of scottish tory politicians waiting to be elected. Forsyth is irrelevant, in all except your anti-tory obsessed mind. Is it getting lonely on that cold anti-tory plinth nowadays?
As for north british? Nope, we use the name Scottish Conservative and Unionist party, a branch of the UK wide Conservative Party. Perhaps you might want to familiarise yourself with the registrar of political partys?
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128. oldnat
"Via Wardog I also found Conan the Librarian's site - Pseudepigrapha - great spoof Hootsmon front pages!"
The Hootsman always brings a smile.
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131. At 8:12pm on 19 Sep 2009, dubbieside
"The torys have destroyed the water industry in England, all companies there are foreign owned, the reason they are foreign owned is because in rip off Britain they can make profits that they are not able to make in their home market."
I agree that privatisation of water failed. I agree with the belief that this is a policy area where thatcherite politicians failed in their aims.
Why are you telling me what I already know? Go talk to Scottish Unionist why dont you!
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131. At 8:12pm on 19 Sep 2009, dubbieside
"The only people likely to vote for this are those who think they can get a good number on the board of a privatized company. The rest of us have more common sense"
Yeh, cos the 21% of 18-35 year olds who are going to vote Scottish Conservative and Unionist in 2010 really all sit on fortune 500 boards!
Get real!
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#131 dubbieside
Agree! The southern British Branch, should never get the chance to destory Scottish water like they did with the North sea oil.
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135. giggletheloneranger
Examples please not pure assertions because they don't fit your own political party.
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136. deanthetory
Don't believe the smoke screen as once the keys to No10 are in his hands the rhetoric will change and you won't like it.
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swinney would not dare sell off the water. 200 million is small change in the overall budget. and such a sell off would affect everyone who either rents or owns the home.
too many students at uni these days to justify free education unless their degree is critical, and then they must work in public service for a similar duration as their course.
no 135
perhaps they have been given lessons by labour.......
no 130
i'm not what you could call an economist or banker or even an accountant, but was the original budget cut following cuts from westminster?
be interesting to see what cuts darling and co propose. pulling out of afghanistan would save a bit (remember soldiers etc atill need to be paid). replace trident with a cruise missile system - still expensive but considerably cheaper than trident, and still an effecyive deterrent, no one wants even a small nuke in their backyard. cut mps expenses completely to minimum - lead by example.
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#139 Dean, isn't that 21% about in line with the general voting trend in Scotland? I think it's up from the historic Tory numbers in Scotland which is, of course, good news for you, but hardly anything earthshaking one would think.
Of course, if an upward trend continues over time (and even if independent surely there would still be Tories) that will be different.
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#143 barbarian9
The block grant was paid in full, however Mr Swinney did bring forward an advanced payment to uplift the housing market and affordable housing, again it's not much of an enigma, the block grant had an additional 800m weighted balance, so even if you subtract Mr Swinney's advanced call of some 350m, there still remains a blank and unanswered hole in the block grant?.
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deanthetory re your various posts.
Now you have me really confused.
You ask where has all the money gone over the tyears ?" ... and a further £200 millions has went on keeping Scottish water in public ownership....
Let me see if I have got this right, you are complaining that the Scottish Government have not raised 200ml pounds selling something that you do not want sold????
Especially since I have already explained that I personally do not support privatisation of Scottish Water.
Theres a lack of logic there.
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146. At 9:19pm on 19 Sep 2009, dubbieside
Not at all.
Again please read my previous postings.
Someone asked where has the money gone, and I listed some of the highest profile expenditures by the current SNP government.
This doesnt mean I want to see these alternatives cut myself- I was merely explaining what the other options are, since most unionists seem incapable of doing this.
Its you who read what I said, and in an anti-tory fit of rage accused me of saying something along the lines of 'could privatise scottish water to raise 200 millions- which i support'...of course i didnt.
Its your horrendous anti-tory irrationality which caused to to assume despite my contributions telling you the opposite.
If there is a logical failing, its not mine- but there is an open-mindness failing and it seems to be yours.
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#122
dean the tory
Are you aware that keeping water in public hands actually costs no extra and any windfall for selling it you only get once anyway?
Scottish Water charges are now lower than the privatised charges down south which is of enormous economic benefit to Scottish business and Scottish house holders. Thgis is what our economy needs.
The Tory position on Scottish water doesn't make any fiscal sense whatsoever and I'm surprised they even think it sensible to mention it.
Are you also aware that since water was privatised in England there is no longer any British ownwership of water supply in England.
Water is the new oil and will become increasingly valuable particularly as England runs shorter and shorter as the continental cartels which now own English Water are making no attempt to increase water storage? They just put up prices and put on hosepipe bans.
Do you remember the Scottish referendum on water ownership? 80% voted for it to remain in public hands.
Quite right too. It's time we took power generation back into public hands as well. I'm sick of old folk in energy rich Scotland staying in bed in cold weather because they can't afford to turn on the heating.
That's why I'm a nationalist. Because I want to build a better society for our children and our old folk and everybody else and we have no chance whatsover of doing so tied to the failed post imperial British state with its delusions of world wide influence and power which is bought and paid for at the expense of most of our population.
It is a fact that all the countries that provide the best society for all their peoples are the small ,mostly European, social democratic states.
Some observant Tories -Michael Fry notably - have noticed this and I have little doubt that there is a vast reservoir in both the Tory and Labour parties in Scotland who only need a little nudge now to do as Michael has done and declare for Independence. Neither the Tory nor the Labour Party in Scotland are constitutionally "unionist" organisations. It is just a political position they have stumbled into in a uninspired response to the rise of the SNP.
The LibDems. I dunno.I've never actually met a LibDem member (true) except some elected members.
But to be a Tory(or a socialist) and a nationalist are not mutually exclusive positions.
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#148 But to be a Tory(or a socialist) and a nationalist are not mutually exclusive positions.
An excellent point, which is why I suspect it is a mistake to assume that the vote for the SNP is the same as the potential vote for independence. While I suspect, possibly wrongly, that most people who vote SNP are nationalists, I also suspect there are people who vote for other parties who are as well.
Of course, as usual I have to append that with--but what do I know?
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148. At 9:39pm on 19 Sep 2009, sneckedagain
"Are you also aware that since water was privatised in England there is no longer any British ownwership of water supply in England."
Yes.
"Do you remember the Scottish referendum on water ownership? 80% voted for it to remain in public hands."
Yes
"Quite right too. It's time we took power generation back into public hands as well"
Yes
"Some observant Tories -Michael Fry notably - have noticed this"
Yes, like me they are on the rational (leftist) wing of tory politics.
"That's why I'm a nationalist. Because I want to build a better society for our children and our old folk and everybody else"
As do I, but I have considered this and still hold that continued membership to the Union; if Scotland is given fiscal autonomy remains the more beneficial course of action than outright independence.
But I respect your position.
"But to be a Tory(or a socialist) and a nationalist are not mutually exclusive positions"
Many tories vote Nationalist today (but are still tories)
"The Tory position on Scottish water doesn't make any fiscal sense whatsoever and I'm surprised they even think it sensible to mention it."
They're trying to win an election, and recapture the centre-right voters in Scotland- so they are likely to say things to attract these voters.
Even if it is....erm....questionable..
"Scottish Water charges are now lower than the privatised charges down south which is of enormous economic benefit to Scottish business and Scottish house holders"
Yes. This is why I have been arguing for continued nationalised ownership of Scottish water throughout this threat.
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deanthetory
Still fail to see anything that resembles logic in your 124.
There is no irrationality in my anti toryism. I dislike them immensely. By the way, keep jumping up and down about Forsyth, do you think if you repeat it often enough he will disappear?
Why do you think School vouchers and privatizing Scottish water are back on the agenda? The reason is Forsyth is pulling the North British tory strings. Cameron in No 10, Forsyth in the Scottish Office.
Note from No 10
Aunty Bella, thanks for your efforts but we need a heavyweight at the Scottish Office.
Your etc Call me Dave.
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I appreciate the fact that somebody is trying to give a costed outlook of the Scottish governments budget. A drop in the ocean attempt nevertheless.
Mr Swinney referred to the very dubious 1,000 new police officer's and the fact that he didn't quite take into account their pension rights.Again another pie in the sky statement and please don't forget many of the new police officer's recruited were retained officer's.
O' lets hope Mr Swinney does make a statement shortly about our public services and their pension rights.Will Mr Swinney protect our public servants pension rights?.
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148. sneckedagain
Here, here!
And anyone that doesn't want to sell off our water should just not bring it up; the tories want it on the agenda - any shared resource that can be taken for private profit. There are always willing apologists for the heart of conservatism.
Energy? Yes, power to the people! :)
That's why I'm for independence too - we need to get to a position where we can enable radical change.
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World's most precious commodity is getting even scarcer
Scotland is not immune from this and already there are shortages trying to supply all the new homes that have been built already. I know where my water comes from as its a private supply full of all those "nasty" bugs condemned by the local health authority (piffle) yet they haven't killed any of us (few hundred). Even now there is a proposal to extract water from an aquifer in the highlands to supply a new housing development, pure stupidity but the economy overrides common sense.
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#148 Sneckedagain
I agree wholeheartedly.
Re Michael Fry:
Originally, I had no time for him, despising his revisionist views and his dismissive arrogance against independence.
Since his 'conversion' however, I have found him to be a more thoughtful and interesting character.
More significantly, in a recent Radio Scotland interview, he described himself as a former Tory, and was quite explicit in distancing himself from that party today.
Perhaps unsurprisingly!
Re the Lib Dems:
I've been 'politically active' over 20 years, and have yet to meet a Lib Dem activist (unless you include a Penicuik milkman and a handful of ageing supporters at a coffee morning in the 1980s)!
Does such a beast still exist??
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PM in 'life support' economy plea
"He said: "Now is not the time to lose our focus on the economy - we must not switch off the life support."
I know who and what needs switched off!
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#152 gigglebiz
In what way is the achievement of over 1000 extra police officers 'dubious'?
Would you prefer 1000 entirely inexperienced recruits than to have significant policing experience retained in that achievement?
I recall that being one of the SNP manifesto pledges that the opposition most loved to parade as a 'broken promise' - yet how very quiet they've gone on the subject since the pledge was fulfilled 2 years early.
Which may prompt the question: At what stage was it actually a broken promise??
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153. At 10:16pm on 19 Sep 2009, mrbfaethedee
"And anyone that doesn't want to sell off our water should just not bring it up"
I totally disagree. An open minded person must at least understand and know of the various options.
You can disagree all you like, but this kind of thing is on the agenda- the next two years will see further hard choices.
I want to see water under nationalisation, but this doesn't mean it wont be on the parliamentary agenda to privatise.
The complacency in your "lets not talk about it" mentality will result in privatisation!
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Surprisingly here are two balanced article links regarding the budget, in the Scotsman:
Figures 'don't add up to any anti-Glasgow bias'.
Council funding this year, per person:
£2,517 - Glasgow
£2,243 - Dundee
£1,755 - Edinburgh
£1,729 - Aberdeen
£2,061 - Scottish average
Plug the gaps and improve links before going for big projects
[Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]
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i'm not a rampant socialist. i enjoy the benefits of capitalism and the benefits of social justice without resorting to extreme views on either side.
but you never, ever sell off a primary resource. ie water.
if it is sold off, then the prices will go up.
if the price goes up, people have less money to spend, and that means less money in the economy. energy prices are way over the top. scottish power is not scottish, its spanish. thames water is german!
200 million to run water? that is a justifiable expense, in the same way that childrens education in scotland costs a few hundred million. do people want to privatise all of education?
quangos may not be everyone's cup of tea, but at least they remain within government control (i've worked for two).
private companies only have to lose the contract. look at various contracts in england.
there is no reason why a government run resource cannot be efficient. bring in expertise without using consultancies. plenty of knowledge out there.
no155
i've never met a lib dem supporter, let alone an activist!
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158. deanthetory
"I want to see water under nationalisation, but this doesn't mean it wont be on the parliamentary agenda to privatise."
Any politician bringing water privatisation onto the agenda is bringing political suicide unto themselves and their party, not for sale full stop.
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152. At 10:07pm on 19 Sep 2009, giggletheloneranger
"Mr Swinney referred to the very dubious 1,000 new police officer's and the fact that he didn't quite take into account their pension rights"
Tell me someone does that 1,000 new police officers include the new bread of pathetic 'community officers'?
If that should turnout to be the case then the 1,000 number could indeed be seen as dubious. But I am unawares if this is the case, would be interesting to know however.
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#157. At 10:52pm on 19 Sep 2009, Dougie-Dubh wrote:
Dougie, I think you're needlessly feeding a troll. Unfed, he'll starve to death which is a good fate for all trolls.
Real debate is a good thing, for example I agree with Dean that discussing whether water should be privatized or not is a reasonable discussion point. Discussing something doesn't mean you're for it after all.
Tossing around unsubstantiated accusations with the hope of getting a fight going appears to be a certain poster's level of discussion and isn't worth bothering with.
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Came across this link about the failure of the global economy:
Question Time Special
There’s an elephant in the room.
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Well Dougie! you just cant move people around and then expect not to be challenged on the numbers, many a Doctor would challenge the fitness of retained staff under the stringent police recruitment act of employment?.
Your not creating a new post by retainment nor are you creating new pension services, your just adjusting the accrued years of services.
Is there a limit on active service age?.
When you make a manifesto commitment to recruit 1,000 new police-personnal, then the public believe you intend to create 1,000 new polic positions.
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158. deanthetory
"The complacency in your "lets not talk about it" mentality will result in privatisation!"
There is absolutely no complacency in what you categorize as a 'let's not talk about it' mentality.
The reason it isn't complacency is that there is no public motivation to seling of water. It doesn't need discussion because there is no preexisting mobilisation of ublic opinion calling for it. What is there is the desire for people to keep talking mentioning it, so that it becomes a hot topic in the media, which leads down a well-greased slope into clais that it wouldn't be in the media so much if people didn't want to have discussion (later becoming decision) about it.
All that it takes to happen is for it to keep being parroted by
those keen to see it happen
those willing to assist those who are keen to see it happen
those who can be gamed into it by those who are keen to see it happen
The point is precisely that i'm not complacent; not complacent with regard to the conservatives. I frequent this forum primarily because of my support for independence, but (as political rather than consitutional matter) I will never trust the conservatives, and on a public forum discussing political matters you can be certain that i will from time to time point out that the conservatives always need watching - even the twitching corpse that is the conservative party in Scotland.
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158. deanthetory
"I totally disagree. An open minded person must at least understand and know of the various options.
You can disagree all you like, but this kind of thing is on the agenda- the next two years will see further hard choices. "
If the next two years will see us face such hard choices then why is your conservative party intent on drastically increasing the signal-to-noise ratio at a time when we need focused deliberation by trying to force on to the agenda issues that are not going to go anywhere.
If it is so clearly a nonsensical proposal to you deanthetory, you ought to be asking yourself why it is that your conservative party is pushing this one out there!
What is it - a big unacheivable to soften the ground for acceptance of a smaller concession? A sop to the will of the greater uk conservative party?
If it is, it is exactly what makes politics so unattractive and dreary to many people - politicos thinking they are being so clever and sophisticated in their machiavellian schemes, when all they do is tie up in a knot what ought to be the transparent business of ordering our affairs as a civil society.
If not that, then what? ah, conservatism - give common resources to profiteers wherever possible. It doesn't need to be needful or beneficial, just possible.
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Why the BBC is uniquely unaccountable
"Why does the BBC Trust side with executives determined to hide their own incompetence by ensuring that you can never find out about it? I have no idea – but it adds weight to the claim made last week by Ben Bradshaw, the Culture Secretary, that the Trust needs to be replaced by a genuinely external regulator."
Seems opportune as the moderation is ....
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Good to see an honest article emerging from the Brit Nat camp. There have even been a few in the Scotsman recently.
Better enjoy it while it lasts.
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28. deanthetory
"What if Scottish Water was privatised? Brownlee says this would dave perhap[s £200 millions, or if Grad Endow was reintroduced saving a further £20 millions"
Sorry - while the moderators are out clubbing :) I was forced to go back through the thread...
You say in your #147 -
"Someone asked where has the money gone, and I listed some of the highest profile expenditures by the current SNP government."
The quote at the top gives a claimed saving of £200 million for privatising our water - it's just a claim (for something you don't even agree with), and i'm not aware of any significant exposure of it in the media lately - hardly highest profile expenditure.
The other figure you give is £20 million - high profile, i think not.
So given that you selected these two items, I'm wondering why water? I understand why you want to highlight the 'cost' of abolishing the graduate endowment - you think it should stay. For the record I don't see why a graduate should pay because they have graduated, but that's another discussion.
So when explicitly selecting expenditure areas in the context of 'looking where the money has gone' why did you select the until-recently low-profile 'option' of water privatisation deanthetory?
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NuLabour have applied a whole new dimension to the process of democracy.
Over HALF of the Cabinet are ‘Parachutes’.
55% of the Labour MPs in the Cabinet were parachuted into safe seats by ‘the party’. They were not selected in the ordinary way by their local party members.
Attached they provide a list of the above cabinet ministers.
Do any of you remember the cash for peerages period. Well if you read the last paragraph it takes on another new meaning.
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158. deanthetory
"the next two years will see further hard choices. "
Is there budget salvageable from the Edinburgh trams? If so, ask your conservative party to demand the cancellation of the trams project. How did they ever get funding?
That's the trouble with hard choices, sometimes they've been made cheaply in advance.
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While the mods on these blogs usually do a decent job of getting through the posts (tonight's delays are rare), tonight gave me sufficient motivation to express my disenchantment with being pre-moderated at all. So I made a complaint and suggestion.
Pre-moderation is ridiculous as a default on political discussion blogs, please folk - make a complaint about pre-moderation and a suggestion favouring post-moderation.
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167. At 00:24am on 20 Sep 2009, mrbfaethedee
"conservatism - give common resources to profiteers wherever possible. It doesn't need to be needful or beneficial, just possible"
Offensive, ignorant nonsense. I shall not even bother refuting this.
Me, and countless other tories totally fail to meet your nonsense criteria!
"I will never trust the conservatives, and on a public forum discussing political matters you can be certain that i will from time to time point out that the conservatives always need watching"
I hope you have a pleasant time out on that cold, anti-tory isolated plinth too!
What a paranoid ramble, lol.
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170. At 01:04am on 20 Sep 2009, mrbfaethedee
"So when explicitly selecting expenditure areas in the context of 'looking where the money has gone' why did you select the until-recently low-profile 'option' of water privatisation deanthetory?"
Honestly?
If it is being talked about by the third largest party in Scottih politics, and the next UK government I figure its worth talking about.
Rather than ignore it, I'd prefer to challenge this thatcherite move by a potential governing party!
Besides, all options need considering at any time, moderate negotiation may compell governing (minority) administrations from considering all policies (however unpallatable). Just cos you dinnae like it isnt a good enough reason to ignore it in minority government Scotland.
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#163 JRMacClure
That's a bit sub-zero! lets not talk about SNP policies.
I know the SNP have had major problems trying to implement their manifesto pledges but hey, does that mean we should ignore every commitment, o' by the way, the Glasgow train service to the airport was another pledge that the SNP said they would deliver.
Can you please define a troll/
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172. At 01:18am on 20 Sep 2009, mrbfaethedee
"Is there budget salvageable from the Edinburgh trams? If so, ask your conservative party to demand the cancellation of the trams project"
No.
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OK, here is another example.
The SNP government have decided to stop the new Edinburgh tram service at the end of princess street, most people in leith walk are happy at that decision however the initial cost of the new tram services remains the same and wait for it! with half the proposed services removed.
Most people call that incompetence.
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177. At 02:00am on 20 Sep 2009, deanthetory wrote:
172. At 01:18am on 20 Sep 2009, mrbfaethedee
"Is there budget salvageable from the Edinburgh trams? If so, ask your conservative party to demand the cancellation of the trams project"
No.
No, there is no budget salvageable, or no you won't demand the cancellation of the (highly unpopular) project.
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Deanthetory and mrbfaethedee, how about you clarify this for me.
Is it pretty much agreed that the Edinburgh trams are a waste of money that was forced through over SNP objections? That's what I've read and I'm looking for confirmation or denial.
You know me--the American who doesn't understand Scottish politics. =)
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#173. At 01:37am on 20 Sep 2009, mrbfaethedee wrote:
While the mods on these blogs usually do a decent job of getting through the posts (tonight's delays are rare), tonight gave me sufficient motivation to express my disenchantment with being pre-moderated at all. So I made a complaint and suggestion.
Pre-moderation is ridiculous as a default on political discussion blogs, please folk - make a complaint about pre-moderation and a suggestion favouring post-moderation.
I absolutely agree but any complaint to BBC simply goes into a deep dark hole never to be looked at so I mostly don't bother. Of course, with me not being a rate payer they double or triple don't care about my opinion. lol
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#150 deanthetory
"Many tories vote Nationalist today (but are still tories)"
Agreed, but you're forgetting the origins of the relevant words here:
Tory [and Whig] = C17 nicknames, originally terms of abuse
Conservative = if it ain't broke don't fix it
Unionist = Jo Chamberlain's "Liberal" Unionists who split the Liberal Party
A fiscally autonomous or independent Scotland will doubtless have a centre-right Conservative Party who will doubtless still be called Tories, but Jo Chamberlain's Unionists may be consigned to the dustbin of history.
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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#180 "Is it pretty much agreed that the Edinburgh trams are a waste of money that was forced through over SNP objections? That's what I've read and I'm looking for confirmation or denial.
You know me--the American who doesn't understand Scottish politics. =)"
Yes
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174. deanthetory
If you don't want to refute the notion that the conservatives will sell off shared resources without need or benefit, thats your call. Failing to do so, and calling such comments ignorant and offensive certainly won't count as a substitute though. You can prove them ignorant by explaining why the comments aren't correct. For example- did we need to privatie the railways, water? Did we all benefit as a result?
That you and many other conservatives disagree with the willy-nilly selling off of shared resources when the opportunity arises doesn't mean that your conservative party will stop - look at them on water in Scotland now. No benefit, no need, but the desire is there. By the way this wasn't intended as the single defining characteristic of the conservative's, just a salient one.
In the context of privatisation, desire to do it is currently one of the defining characteristics by which people know the conservatives.
I oppose stripping of shared resources, privatisation being a particular mechanism to acheive it (there are others, so-called 'right to buy' is another). So when a party with history for removing shared assets from public ownership start banging the drum for more I will oppose it, and the means by which they try to put it on the agenda. Stating that i'll never trust the tories doesn't isolate me in this country.
There's no paranioa invloved, your party want to privatise shared resources as usual - oppose them and their supporters.
Perhaps my comments were a little sweeping and hyperbolic - i'll try to be more literal for you in future. I've no wish to have personally offended you, but if my opinions have then so be it.
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" 180. At 02:40am on 20 Sep 2009, JRMacClure wrote:
Deanthetory and mrbfaethedee, how about you clarify this for me.
Is it pretty much agreed that the Edinburgh trams are a waste of money that was forced through over SNP objections? That's what I've read and I'm looking for confirmation or denial.
You know me--the American who doesn't understand Scottish politics. =)"
If it helps any it's certainly my understanding.
Very few in Edinburgh wanted it and the SNP tried to scrap it when they were newly elected as the Scottish Government, however the Labour/Lib Dem opposition (which took both these parties an age to comes to terms with, and some may say are still struggling with!) were having none of it and stubbornly put their heads together and outvoted the new minority SNP Government to push it through.
If I've got any of that wrong I'm sure a helpful someone will point it out very quickly ;-)
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175. deanthetory
"If it is being talked about by the third largest party in Scottih politics, and the next UK government I figure its worth talking about.
Rather than ignore it, I'd prefer to challenge this thatcherite move by a potential governing party!"
That's the point! They can't just do it, they have to float it, get it in the media, get people discussing it - then they move to try pushing for its actual implementation.
If you want to stop it from happening, prevent it from getting momentum in the media. We are fortunate that privatisation smorgasboard of previous decades is still strongly and negatively associated with the conservatives in Scotland - it should be easy to defuse at the stage of floating it.
It'll hurt conservatives up here if they persist with it anyway, but I'd rather it didn't get an airing because I'm against it in principle.
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177. deanthetory
""Is there budget salvageable from the Edinburgh trams? If so, ask your conservative party to demand the cancellation of the trams project"
No."
No, of course not!
Your party had no objection to wasting public expenditure for no reason other than political gain there though, did they?
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#162 Dean
'Community officers' are not police officers.
The Scottish Government has delivered over 1000 officers, and it is worth reiterating that the opposition parties seem to have quietly drop the issue.
#165 etc gigglebiz
Clearly, to recruit over 1000 extra police officers, you have to replace those who have retired or otherwise left the service in addition - so the number recruited will be significantly greater even than 1000, no matter how you wish to misrepresent it.
You are clearly confused and dangerously misinformed, on every subject you have stirred up. I suggest you do at least a little factual research before embarassing yourself further.
#163 JRMacClure
I agree. You can spot a troll like that a mile off.
Just couldn't let that nonsense comment of his stand. But you make a solid point. We should all disregard low-level tripe of that nature and allow worthwhile debate to flourish.
Re water ownership, I agree 100% it must be retained in public hands, as a vital public asset, and also with those who advocate returning power generation and supply to public control.
The lessons and costs of privatisation of these services (water down south and power in general) should not be lost!
In a similar vein, I'd propose that the Scottish Government might consider investing in or the establishment of a new 'Bank of Scotland'.
In fact, as the Bank of Scotland is already part of a group under state control, it should be fairly practical, at least possible in theory, to transfer a (major) stake in the Bank to the Scottish Government.
Of course, our future independent Scotland will be founded on its own reserves - possibly controlled by a 'state bank' - which is exactly why Westminster would oppose such a move.
I'd also back the idea, when economically viable, of the Scottish Government having a stake in our broadcasting output - possibly even STV.
As I've previously argued, this country requires vastly increased home-produced television output, and broadcasting aspirations far higher than the monotonous diet we are used to at present.
Accordingly, we should be pressing for transfer of full broadcasting control to Holyrood - albeit another development that we could expect to be opposed by Westminster, ultimately for political reasons.
Any takers?
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180. JRMacClure
"Is it pretty much agreed that the Edinburgh trams are a waste of money that was forced through over SNP objections? That's what I've read and I'm looking for confirmation or denial."
It was forced through against the SNP government by an alliance of the Unionist parties. Presumably they thought it would be good to let the SNP know the realities of minority government, and making them waste a large chunk of budget was no doubt a factor in their thinking. Can't have the money back when you need it though.
"You know me--the American who doesn't understand Scottish politics. =) "
lol
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Appears that Baroness Scotland is in the proverbial….. again.
The attorney-general, Baroness Scotland, is facing serious questions about payments of £170,000 that Cabinet Office rules say she was not entitled to receive
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184. At 10:34am on 20 Sep 2009, mrbfaethedee wrote:
174. deanthetory
"If you don't want to refute the notion that the conservatives will sell off shared resources without need or benefit, thats your call.
Perhaps my comments were a little sweeping and hyperbolic - i'll try to be more literal for you in future. I've no wish to have personally offended you, but if my opinions have then so be it."
You are rude, offensive, grass and much out of touch with modern Scottish Conservativsm.
Privatisation is the salient characteristic of modern day Scottish tory values? Tosh, your just so anti-tory (for actions we both condemn 25 years ago) that you are up there on a plinth throwing mud around.
I have met many paranoid people worried about 'the tories' privatising their kids or something silly and pathetic like that- but I considered you at least fair minded.
I was clearly wrong.
You have shown yourself up with comment such was:
"conservatism - give common resources to profiteers wherever possible. It doesn't need to be needful or beneficial, just possible"
and the equally nonsense:
"I will never trust the conservatives, and on a public forum discussing political matters you can be certain that i will from time to time point out that the conservatives always need watching"
How dare you treat my party in such a descriminatory manner!
We have done more to reverse urban poverty recently than the last 10 years of Labour- towncentre regeneration for example.
We pushed it through. We understand that if you rebuild the towncentres of communities, generate working opportunities for youngsters you allow them a stake into society, you tackle the underclass of unemployed, dispirited people.
How dare you say that conservativsm stands for the stripping of resources! We seek a council tax freeze so that people have more of their own resources to spend during this horrific labour recession.
Your level of ignorance was more suited for 25 years ago- when Howard and his crew still inhabited the soul of the party. They are sidlined. They are out- get over it. Move on.
Dean
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187. At 10:46am on 20 Sep 2009, mrbfaethedee
"No, of course not!
Your party had no objection to wasting public expenditure for no reason other than political gain there though, did they?"
More mud throwing? Gods your odious.
No- the trams were unncessary but it is impossible to cancel them now.
You go ahead and seek this, but what about all the taxpayers money you'd have thrown away for no outcome?
Its easy to critise when you offer no alternative strategies.
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186. At 10:44am on 20 Sep 2009, mrbfaethedee
"That's the point! They can't just do it, they have to float it, get it in the media, get people discussing it - then they move to try pushing for its actual implementation."
You seem devoid of any understanding of the dangers of minority government in Holyrood.
The fact that some senior tories are actively pushing for this (and will even if we stop talking about it)- they may well succeed.
The SNP will face tough budget negotiations, and there is every chance (though not most probable) that this kind of thing can be forced upon the majority of an unwilling parliament.
The SNP will NOT want a repeat of the last budget fiasco. And Goldie is running scared right now 'cos shes been too moderate on key unionist issues (and the caeser knives are out) - never underestimate a party leader running scared.
You might wake up and find something nasty has happened. Such as the floating of scottish water.
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188. Dougie-Dubh
I agree!
I wonder if work is underway in the background looking at the processes invloved for things like national broadcasting and central bank. I'd like to hear some fleshing out of such ideas in public at an opportune time.
I'd like to see some ideas about 21st century commons too - things like leaving some of the radio spectrum open for public use etc...
But the provisioning of major state institutions like the ones you highlight need airing soon.
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My 72 with reference to all doubts about Glenrothes removed
#25 dean the tory
I don't know what polls you are using but they are well out of date.
The latest Ipsos-Mori Poll puts the SNP 2 points ahead of Labour for Westminster contests but 6 points ahead among those sure to vote and a massive 13 points clear on Holyrood intentions in the same group. That was about 10 days ago. The most recent YouGov poll also puts the SNP comfortably ahead of Labour and the SNP is polling between 33% and 36% in all recent polls except for the comletely untypical BBC poll to which you seem to refer.
Labour may hold onto Glasgow North East but if it does it will be by a tiny margin. But my money is on the SNP. Remember the poll two days before Glasgow East last year - giving Labour a 14% advantage
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#185
AND the Tories. They also voted for Edinburgh trams but with the proviso that no extra money should be found for them if the plan went over budget.
Oops.
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#188
Agreed totally.
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197. At 11:51am on 20 Sep 2009, sneckedagain wrote:
#185
"AND the Tories. They also voted for Edinburgh trams but with the proviso that no extra money should be found for them if the plan went over budget"
That seems rather sensible. Control the budget, prevent unacceptable cost inflation- especially given the current economic circumstances.
We'd hoped to prevent the scheme becoming another Holyrood.
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176. At 01:59am on 20 Sep 2009, giggletheloneranger wrote:
Can you please define a troll/
depends on your preference for fantasy creatures, but as na avid reader and ex-player of dungeons and dragons, take your pick from the following:
(with apologies to gary cygax, tolkein and terry pratchett)
1. extremely dim-witted creature possessing enormouse strength. tends to following orders literally. not given to creative imagination.
2. extremely large and violent creature. swings big clubs and doesn't pay attention to what it hits or damages. subtlety not its strongest suit. lacking in the brain cell department.
3. extremely violent creature. but as above very low intelligence.
can you spot what all three have in common? :)
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193. deanthetory
TAKEN FROM SCOTTISH TORY MANIFESTO.
"Privately owned water companies in England and Wales offer better quality services at a cheaper price. Furthermore, the constraints on Scottish Water’s borrowing capacity means that it is unable to build infrastructure sufficiently rapidly in areas earmarked for potential development. Scottish Water should be acting as a contributor to economic growth – not an inhibitor of it. It is a politician-controlled body in a consumer-controlled era. And it has to change."
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196. At 11:39am on 20 Sep 2009, sneckedagain
" don't know what polls you are using but they are well out of date"
Really? Well I need to go over and read through UK polling, sorry about that!
I was refering to the two YouGovs from early then late August.
"The latest Ipsos-Mori Poll puts the SNP 2 points ahead of Labour for Westminster contests but 6 points ahead among those sure to vote and a massive 13 points clear on Holyrood intentions in the same group."
Good news for the SNP administration then, but the Megrahi affair should be a lesson learnt about brining references to the divine into politics- there is always one Nicol Stephen hanging about to be offended.
" the SNP is polling between 33% and 36%"
I dont know about that:
YouGov (Scotland only)
Sample Size: 1078 Scottish Adults
Fieldwork: 24th - 26th August 2009
Lab 33
SNP 25
CON 19
LIB 16
And what is more interesting in this poll was:
The Scottish tories lead the SNP among 18-34 year olds;
Lab 34
SNP 20
Con 21
Lib 19
But also lead the SNP among 35-54 year olds;
Lab 39
SNP 19
Con 20
Lib 15
So I'd challenge anyone who claims the SNP are enjoying support between 33-36% in Scotland. They certainly do not for anyone under 55.
ALSO
Note that the Electoral Calculus polling average from 2005-now only places the SNP ave on 29%, not even in the 30's.
When you read about these factors the picture isn't so healthy for the SNP. But equally it is worse for the Liberal Democrats.
Source (you'll need Acrobat): http://www.yougov.co.uk/corporate/archives/press-archives-pol-Main.asp?dID=2009
Sample Size: 1183 Scottish Adults
Fieldwork: 26th - 28th August 2009 (more recent than last one)
And in another YouGov, again Scotland only poll the 18-34 year olds came out even more strongly for the Cons over the SNP, proving its not a one off finding. This time the difference ain't marginal but substantial:
18-34s preference:
Lab: 30
SNP 16
CON 28
LIB 21
This time the SNP come last among the youngest. This is the Megrahi fallout, because the most hostile group to his release was the younger generation. It appears Goldie successfully pinched young voters from the SNP over Megrahi affair.
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191. deanthetory
"If you don't want to refute the notion that the conservatives will sell off shared resources without need or benefit, thats your call.
Perhaps my comments were a little sweeping and hyperbolic - i'll try to be more literal for you in future. I've no wish to have personally offended you, but if my opinions have then so be it."
You are rude, offensive, grass and much out of touch with modern Scottish Conservativsm."
Given that nothing I said was persoanlly directed against you, and was a statement about the actions of a political party, which you could have elected to refute - you are wrong to call me personally rude, and offensive. It is name-calling grow up and stop being so personally hypersensitive about criticisms of your conservative party.
I categorically deny being grass :)
I am delighted to be out of touch with the 'modern Scottish Conservatism', perhaps when they stop being a sockpuppet for 'establishment UK Conservatism' they can get back in touch.
"Privatisation is the salient characteristic of modern day Scottish tory values? Tosh, your just so anti-tory (for actions we both condemn 25 years ago) that you are up there on a plinth throwing mud around."
Actually - 'wasn't intended as the single defining characteristic of the conservative's, just a salient one'.
Anti-tory, yes I already said that. For actions in the past, with similar actions being floated right now - condem the past for it, condem the present for it.
"I have met many paranoid people worried about 'the tories' privatising their kids or something silly and pathetic like that- but I considered you at least fair minded.
I was clearly wrong."
First - the name calling again, you called me paranoid before, and now we're back to it. This is rich coming from a person who was all holier-than-thou about other people using dementia to the same effect. You either allow it for what it is or don't deanthetory, changing your self-righteousness to fit isn't nice.
Second, a pathetic straw man with which to associate me. I've no fear of anyone 'privatising my kids' or anything else so ludicrous. I am fair minded, you are wrong again. I have said, and will say again - i oppose the stripping of shared resources for private profit in the past, and will continue to do so in the future. There is nothing 'not fair-minded' about opposing the proponents of a thing you oppose.
"You have shown yourself up with comment such was:
"conservatism - give common resources to profiteers wherever possible. It doesn't need to be needful or beneficial, just possible"
and the equally nonsense:
"I will never trust the conservatives, and on a public forum discussing political matters you can be certain that i will from time to time point out that the conservatives always need watching"
How dare you treat my party in such a descriminatory manner!"
I show myself, not show myself up. Rail privatisation - beneficial? needful? And salt in the wounds too - they are publicly subsidised still (like British Nuclear Fuels). What about water down south, needful and beneficial? Now that energy is becoming an issue beyond mere politicking - how beneficial to have profiteers at every point in the chain from prodcution to delivery? If you also disagree with these privatisations I don't see how I'm showing up anything other that the party you so fervently support.
I trust who and what I choose, I've offered you reasons for why I don't trust the conservatives - you can disagree, it doesn't invalidate my right to trust who and what I choose. If i look out for signs of behaviour from the past returning and see it - surely by my criteria I am vindicated?
Discriminating has a meaning other than the loose pejorative you are slinging here. It's hard to have opinions without discriminating.
"We have done more to reverse urban poverty recently than the last 10 years of Labour- towncentre regeneration for example.
We pushed it through. We understand that if you rebuild the towncentres of communities, generate working opportunities for youngsters you allow them a stake into society, you tackle the underclass of unemployed, dispirited people."
Ah, glad to see your only example trotted out again (is that every recent thread - or did you miss some?) I wasn't discussing urban poverty, but saying that you've done more than recent Labour party 'efforts' is pretty weak stuff deanthetory. Urban centre regeneration - I'm sure the grateful poor will be falling over themselves to vote for their conservative saviours - not! How many long term jobs is this going to create deanthetory?, since you understand how it works so well, how does it tackle families of generationally unemployed? How does srucing up some toon centres allow the dispirited stake in society?
"How dare you say that conservativsm stands for the stripping of resources! We seek a council tax freeze so that people have more of their own resources to spend during this horrific labour recession."
Actually 'stripping of shared resources', a reference (a you well know) to publicly owned infrastructure and resources, nothing to do with funding council tax freezing. This isn't Labour's recession, i'm sad you think it is. It is a recession caused by the systemic failure of the global financial sector precipitated by their unethical profiteering.
"Your level of ignorance was more suited for 25 years ago- when Howard and his crew still inhabited the soul of the party. They are sidlined. They are out- get over it. Move on."
Again our opinions differ, I think you will find that when the 'Scottish Raj' is replaced with the 'Etonian Class' and all is back to normal in England, the 'soul' of the conservative party will look more like my view of them than yours.
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the source for my last posts last YouGov poll results can be found again in the same archive.
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193. deanthetory
"You seem devoid of any understanding of the dangers of minority government in Holyrood."
I'm sure one day i'll be political sophisticate like you deanthetory, until then I'll just the limited mental powers i have currently.
"The fact that some senior tories are actively pushing for this (and will even if we stop talking about it)- they may well succeed."
They will fail utterly if they can be denied airtime for it. In my opinion.
"The SNP will face tough budget negotiations, and there is every chance (though not most probable) that this kind of thing can be forced upon the majority of an unwilling parliament. "
Given the likelihood that it would fail, that means it becomes an elevated negotiating position for the conservatives - they can then look like they are making concessions in order to get what they actually want. As i said in an earlier post, i don't have time for the politics of obfuscation - the ordering of our society is too important for this game playing. And the choice of chips being used in this case is bitter.
So whatever way it pans out the conservative party get a win - they either get to privatise water, or they get to profit in negotiations by opening up old sores. This is not what I want in Scottish politics, and i'm sorry if you now find me objectionable for it.
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#188 dougie
There is no point in making vicious accusations.
Strathclyde police have had there budget cut by some 35m deficit, which in turn will result in police numbers declining over the next few years.
Dontcha know what going on!. doggie.
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192. deanthetory
""No, of course not!
Your party had no objection to wasting public expenditure for no reason other than political gain there though, did they?"
More mud throwing? Gods your odious."
What about my odious? Oh, I see. Mud throwing - the trams project shouldn't have been funded, you claim that your party pushed for it for entirely non-partisan reasons - why did they push for it then deanthetory!
"No- the trams were unncessary but it is impossible to cancel them now.
You go ahead and seek this, but what about all the taxpayers money you'd have thrown away for no outcome?
Its easy to critise when you offer no alternative strategies."
So you think they were unnecessary, but your conservative party helped push them through - but I'm odious for claiming that they forced public expenditure for political gain?
I didn't ask for it to be scrapped, that horse has long since bolted. The question was rhetorical and in the context of the 'where has the money gone' stuff that started this whole to-and-fro. The point being that it's no good bumping you gums about hard choices now like you are the party of financial sages, when you've already assisted so ably in cutting our cloth for us!
The alternative strategy was to not fund the trams - your conservative party decided against it, so yes it is easy to criticise.
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Don't mention the war,
[Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]
Those up-to-date September polls don't look so great for Maggie's children in Scotland (by which I, of course, mean Tory and Nu Liebour).
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All the talk about water has made me think of leaks…. Ha lo and behold here is another one:
Labour's secret tax bombshell.
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Deanthetory
Never really engaged with your comments, but always found them to be generally thoughtful and refreshing, for a Tory.
While you may represent a new, less dogmatic face of your party, there remains inherent conflict at the heart of your philosophy.
You may personally oppose the more objectionable doctrines of your party; you may shun the bitter ravages of Thatcherism, but that is hardly the basis of a 'clean slate' for a Tory revival, or a promotion of the mistaken belief that any 'new Toryism' is the way forward for either Scotland or the UK.
Dean, the doctrines and afflictions of the previous Tory government were not simply a bad dream - an 'emotional baggage' held only in the minds of those who lived through it, to be somehow 'campaigned away' through the enticement of a 'new dawn' of user-friendly right-wing politics.
The Thatcher (and Major) years were, unfortunately, a hard fact of history, and it is not just that a bad taste remains, but that the entire Conservative philosophy is thoroughly discredited and established as contrary to the best interests of Scotland.
You tell us of your opposition to your party's policy for Scottish water, but the posted extract from that policy displays exactly the kind of dogma that, apart from anything else, is entirely wrong for the intended purpose, must continue to be rigidly opposed.
Next, I don't accept for an instant that there is such a thing as your purported 'Megrahi fallout'.
Having just watched 'Politics Scotland', featuring the usual unionist spin about the public "not interested" in the independence referendum, my experience is that far more people have an interest in the referendum than harbour any projected grudge over the release of Megrahi.
Although there are differences of opinion, nothing has or will convince me that the Megrahi decision was anything but a good one.
The only 'disgrace' was in the way the unionist parties ganged up to politicise the issue.
Again, your projections of polls purporting to indicate a preference for the Tories over the SNP amongst younger voters, hardly ring true.
Such claims are entirely at odds with the contrasting demographics of support for the two parties, and the SNP's aspiring vision for a successful, independent Scotland based on social democracy, versus the Tories fundamental adherence to privatisation and outdated 'British' values.
While more and more real achievers are warming to our movement for a new Scotland, I haven't come across a 'Young Tory', or more than one or two of any age, in many a year. Even Michael Fry sees the shift in the tectonic plates, and the direction of evolution towards the new Scotland.
Of course, you are entitled to promote your own political cause.
Your problem being that it begins to look increasingly like self-delusion, based doctrines that have had their day and failed.
Our problem being that the dangers of these doctrines remain ever-present.
On the upside, we can be reasonably confident that they will continue to be rejected by the Scottish electorate for many years to come.
The UK as a whole will not be so fortunate.
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I like the idea that 16 year olds might have the chance to vote in a referendum on Scotland's future. Let's hope if/when Scotland gets its independence that they will be given a universal vote. It is disgusting that young people who can marry, have children and pay taxes have no legal right to decide in the laws that effect them.
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And further more DD you offer not a shred of evidence that any of those retained police-officers match the criteria of active services.
Did the police force amend it's employment rules to allow the retainment of staff?.(active staff)
DD, give the dog a bone and it will wag it's tail all day long.
Anti-truth brigade.
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Deanthetory, you consistently act as though September polling doesn't exist. It does and contradicts what you are saying about polling results. And you know it.
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189. At 10:53am on 20 Sep 2009, mrbfaethedee wrote:
180. JRMacClure
"Is it pretty much agreed that the Edinburgh trams are a waste of money that was forced through over SNP objections? That's what I've read and I'm looking for confirmation or denial."
It was forced through against the SNP government by an alliance of the Unionist parties. Presumably they thought it would be good to let the SNP know the realities of minority government, and making them waste a large chunk of budget was no doubt a factor in their thinking. Can't have the money back when you need it though.
"You know me--the American who doesn't understand Scottish politics. =) "
lol
So... if I understand the complexities of this situation, IF the unionist parties hadn't insisted on funding this Edinburgh Tram which everyone now seems to agree was a terrible idea and which the SNP always opposed, the money might have been there for completing the GARL which the same unionist parties are now whining about having been cancelled and trying to blame... the SNP.
Fascinating.
By the way, does html work on this site? I've never found anything that said.
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that whole anti-Glasgow thing and SNP are big meanies for canceling the GARL thing didn't have legs (as we say over here) is shown, I think, by the fact that it is almost impossible to find in the news two days later.
And the whole water thing was never really an issue, merely a talking point. I continue ignoring trolls so we need a new topic to talk abut.
Is that tax story of substantial importance would you say?
And in spite of everyone in the entire country hating Gordon Brown from all appearances, it looks like the GE still won't happen until May 2010 from what I'm seeing. Correct, Roll_On_2010? Any new thoughts? Or more headlines I've missed?
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#206. At 1:13pm on 20 Sep 2009, giggletheloneranger wrote:
#188 dougie
There is no point in making vicious accusations.
Strathclyde police have had there budget cut by some 35m deficit, which in turn will result in police numbers declining over the next few years.
Dontcha know what going on!. doggie.
Just lifted the following from the Strathclyde police ‘Revenue Budget Strategy 2009 - 2010’.
During the financial year there has been a consistent underspend of approximately 0.9% on budget. It is the intention to manage this underspend level with a view to carrying forward the projected balance as part of the 2009/10 Budget Strategy to provide additional funding support. It is anticipated that this will be approximately £4 million. The major element of this underspend relates to employee costs and reflects the recruitment strategy which focused on the recruitment of Government funded officers and the associated funding profile.
I have highlighted the keywords for you. And by the way the last part, ‘government’ means the Scottish one and not the one at Westmidden.
Dontcha know what going on!. giggle.
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Oh, I find the proposed change in the voting age by the SNP fascinating. I doubt it could be done without Whitehall approval (or am I wrong about that?) but it somehow does not indicate a fear of young voters by the SNP.
Any thoughts on that?
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#212. At 4:29pm on 20 Sep 2009, giggletheloneranger wrote:
Ok, I'll respond to you this once but once only until you show up with some evidence of anything you're saying.
There is no need for anyone to show evidence of the police matching the existing criterion. You need to show evidence that the SNP somehow forced the police to change their criterion. Until you do that, you're engaged in nothing but smear.
Political geeks such as hang out here have seen too many smear campaigns to fall for that. Even those who might be on your side politically won't touch such a pile of turds. Come back with evidence of ANY kind and someone may agree to talk to you.
Otherwise, I suggest everyone keeping you on their ignore list as you are going back on mine. Goodbye.
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'214JRMacClure
I understand your foreign take on Scottish matters.
Let me enlighten you. The SNP goverment will put 210m into the council tax freeze, a very large sum that could easily have secured funding for the GARL and the Edinburgh tram.
You see the new horse( the snp) if you like, had no idea of the course and have been found wanting on ever financial undertaking they have endorsed.
The SNP are now calling for the opposition parties to back them in a further cash advancement, to drop up their falling SFT which has already cost 20,000 jobs and still hasn't delivered one single school.
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#210 gedguy
That puts it better than I could ever hope to do. Thanks.
# deanthetory in general
It's ridiculous to accuse people who don't agree with your party's politics of being "odious" and "discriminatory" and not being "open minded." Like it or not the Tories have a history. Stop treating your party like it's your football team and actually think what you represent to people.
The Nats here have a long history of feeling that Scotland has been treated badly by the Tories, and I don't think anyone could seriously argue we were pampered by the Conservatives when they were in power. If you're waiting for Scotland to wholeheartedly acclaim the Conservatives you'll be waiting a long time.
If someone can't take jokes against their Party or accept and listen to people making negative comments they're in a bad way. And I should know!
Also, it's not an al Megrahi bounce. That's a thing political enthusiasts care about. Actually know the yoof of Scotland? A huge amount of them couldn't name Party leaders or know who was in charge of what when, and I don't blame them.
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#214 JRMacClure
Pretty well right there. It wasn't so much a unionist/nat thing on that level as just competing parties.
I liked the tram idea but only if it could be carried through efficiently. When work began it became painfully obvious it couldn't be. Now there are huge sections of Embra torn to pieces where no work's going on cause the company's in dispute with the council...again. The Nats called it on that one.
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#210 Dougie the Black
I misidentified your post for geds, I think! I apologise (and I'm not even drunk yet).
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#216 Roll-on- 2010
It's not big secret that there are massive financial deficits in our police forces.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/glasgow_and_west/8187983.stm
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218. JRMacClure
I think you will concur with America Boycotts Scotland - An American View
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Could the American blogger on a Scottish forum please stop howling so much and engage with the opposition debate.In the name of the wee-man there's no such thing as a one sided argument.
OK, here is another, so the SNP government, who promised the public, classroom sizes, no bigger than 18 pupils, have again failed their manifesto pledge........YES/NO......troll?.
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#224 I do indeed concur. Is there a step beyond concur? It doesn't exist. It never existed. It was indeed spurious.
My dear giggle: "Let me enlighten you. The SNP goverment will put 210m into the council tax freeze, a very large sum that could easily have secured funding for the GARL and the Edinburgh tram."
Yes, they could have. BUT which place would the money do the most good for the widest number of Scots?
You are seriously going to try to tell me that more people would benefit from funding the GARL, no doubt, because that would allow you to beat your anti-SNP drum. Ha! I'm no political novice, my friend, and I won't buy that on even a very deep discount.
It goes over better when you actually make intelligent arguments that you can back up instead of flinging smears hither and yon. Done and done.
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The UNlibdem leader
"Scottish Lib Dem leader Tavish Scott has distanced himself from calls by one of his party's prospective MPs to back a Scottish independence referendum."
Never mind Tavish you might grow up one day and understand what democracy is about and its not by you telling us what we want.
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#226 JRMacClure
The people support the 1,300 hundred jobs and lower carbon emissions that GARL would have brought. (i guess right wing American don't understand those things)
Look the council tax freeze is a tax help for the rich and seriously undermines the general public's future services.
Can the brains of American try and strentch his narrow mind.
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#225 giggletheloneranger
"who promised the public, classroom sizes, no bigger than 18 pupils"
Why would anyone want to build classrooms that small? Don't the weans need space to turn around, and where is the space for the teacher? :-)
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#227. At 8:01pm on 20 Sep 2009, cynicalHighlander wrote:
The UNlibdem leader
"Scottish Lib Dem leader Tavish Scott has distanced himself from calls by one of his party's prospective MPs to back a Scottish independence referendum."
Never mind Tavish you might grow up one day and understand what democracy is about and its not by you telling us what we want.
Wouldn't you think the LibDems would be eager to take a stance that would differentiate them from Labour and Tories?
The people don't want a referendum? Funny, but that's not what 60-70% of the Scots say in every poll that I've seen. It's no wonder they continually slide in the polls with that kind of leadership.
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Giggle, you're having a laugh. Freezing the council tax doesn't "only benefit the rich" and how can you seriously argue the GARL/Embra trams would be more to the benefit of the working class? C'mon now.
The Nats nicked the policy of freezing the council tax with a view to abolishing it (and free prescriptions, and....) off the party I belonged to at the time, but I'm pleased these are going forward...
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#229
I do apologise Oldnat, I thought I did make it clear that the SNP didn't build schools.They only waste money on new PFI initiatives like the failed SFT.
Of course, I will repeat my post. the SNP government made a manifesto pledge to reduce the number of pupils in every school-classroom to 18 pupils.
I hope that reaches your American mind, if not I will be glad to further guide you as well.
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#231 fourstikes
OK, so the tax freeze should only apply to those under say £25,000 per year.
Surely you would rather support the creation of employment rather than disapprove fourstrikes?.
Again, the phasing in of abolishing the prescription charges and replacing the council tax are uniquely different from the SSP's position to end those unfair policies, YES!.
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A BBC quote: "This council tax freeze is very significant because the SNP during the Scottish elections last year, very much campaigned for, if John Swinney, the finance secretary, couldn't deliver this it would be very embarrassing for the SNP"
Interesting.
From the TimesOnline: "The council tax freeze costs the government about £70 million in a year although it is up to individual authorities whether they decide to back it for their area."
How much was it that GARL was going to cost? £400 million and that before the costs actually skyrocketed like they always do on these projects.
Interesting.
Oh, someone tell the American again--who cut in the amount of money being given to the Scottish Parliament? Was that Westminster? Which party is it that controls Westminster again?
I do get so confused. =)
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214. JRMacClure
"Fascinating."
Isn't it.
"By the way, does html work on this site? I've never found anything that said. "
Some definitely does; bold, italic, etc... Hyperlinks too, you can copy the link from the time on a person's comment to link back to it (though you'll have to manually add the page if the thread goes beyond 500) or use my [ahem] comment responder script if you're using firefox (and greasemonkey).
Someone very kindly posted a link to a web page of html that works on the beeb forums, i've only been posting since the al Megrahi blog posts so it must have been aound then I'll take a look back and see if I can find and repost it.
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You're a bit confused again, giggle. Oldnat isn't the American. I am. Do try to keep your insults straight.
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231 fourstrikes
"Giggle,you're having a laugh." Dam, the screen is now covered with coffee stains.
Lend me your wipes MacClure.
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jigglethelonelyandderanged
And just how would £210 million "secure the funding" for a £500 million tram project plus the Glasgow Airport rail link???
You don't do facts.
You don't do evidence.
You don't do coherence.
You don't / can't articulate.
You do do smears.
You do do misinformation.
You do do manure.
You do do a brand of desperate Labour propaganda that my 3-year-old would treat with the disdain it deserves.
Are you Iain Gray???
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230. JRMacClure
It's not Leadership it's Dictatorship under the smoke screen called democracy do as we say while we keep fleecing you.
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228. giggletheloneranger
"
The people support the 1,300 hundred jobs and lower carbon emissions that GARL would have brought. (i guess right wing American don't understand those things)"
1300 jobs GARL would have brought (and kept too i assume)? Please tell me more about these 1300 new jobs that the people support.
If GARL was paid for where does the money come from and how many jobs go with the suddenly vanishing money.
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#233 "...abolishing the prescription charges and replacing the council tax are uniquely different from the SSP's position..."
Aahhh. Elucidating. =)
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#232 Giggletheloneranger or Derek as we commonly know you as ... the reason that the SNP have been unable to reduce class sizes all over Scotland is that certain local authorities are unwilling to comply.
#230 JR .. i commented a while back that the Lib Dems might increase the vote is Scotland to themselves if they backed Independence or even the referendum. Denying the people the right to choose is a very bad move. The chances are that after we get independence some of these people would still have a future in politics in Scotland...just not told what to do by London.
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#237 giggle,
If I didn't exist to amuse, I wouldn't exist at all. ;)
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The BBC is part of a "conspiracy" preventing the "radical changes" needed to UK democracy - according to Greg Dyke (former beeb director general)
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#230 JR .. i commented a while back that the Lib Dems might increase the vote is Scotland to themselves if they backed Independence or even the referendum. Denying the people the right to choose is a very bad move. The chances are that after we get independence some of these people would still have a future in politics in Scotland...just not told what to do by London.
(Now to see if html really works)
I agree with you. Refusing to back at least a referendum looks mightily undemocratic.
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#233 giggle,
Yer right, I would prefer the creation of employment. But, in this imperfect state, it would at least have to be employment with decent conditions for the workers, good pay and conditions, and a strong union.
As for the other, we took the revolutionary position of cutting straight to the chase. Don't get me wrong, I'm pleased the Nats picked up the baton when we imploded. The prescriptions are straight on course. But the position on council tax is still as messy as heck.
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#241 JRMacClure,
I'm ex SSP and will be pleased to explain any of our policies you might have heard of all the way over the pond (miracle in itself!)
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#232 giggletheloneranger
You really dislike Americans, don't you?
However, even with your clarification you are wrong. The manifesto commitment was never to have a maximum of 18 pupils in a room (which was, in any case, limited to P1-3). There was never a problem with having an additional teacher in the room, when the number of pupils exceeded 18.
Was this a sensible policy? Not really. A good ambition, and by asking schools to prioritise smaller class sizes towards the infant sector, actually more sensible than the Labour policy of reducing all "class sizes below the OECD average." The OECD average is 21.4. The most realistic policy for infant class sizes was actually the Lib-Dem proposal of 25, perhaps amended by some form of the the Tory suggestion that HTs should have more freedom to decide on class size depending on pupil standards.
In reality, the amended proposal of 25 for the purposes of determing placing request appeals, is much more in line with consensus thinking in the Parliament.
You appear to wish manifesto committments to be pushed through in Government regardless. Presumably, then, you were fiercely attacking the first Lab/LD coalition for its performance at the end of its term of office for having failed to deliver. Their 2003 report card read
"Nursery school place for all three- and four-year-oldsOnly 85% of three-year-olds are in a nursery place.
100 school rebuilding or renovation projects..
In its end-of-term report card, the executive admitted it was only "on track" to achieving this.
Recruit 1,000 additional teachers
The number of full-time equivalent teachers has risen by about 600."
Those of us who aren't members of parties, and know the realities of politics take a much more balanced view.
We are also the ones who decide elections.
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#234 JRMacClure
I was pretty sure Oldnat made some type of reference to America and time-zones, however I will accept that you tell the truth and stand alone as the lone American.
Now! can you stop parking your purple Porsche in the wrong yard and instead of your no no no yes! approach can you just be a tad more clear.
DD the double pie man, what are you on about with your 238 post.
do you think your playing a game. tut..tut...tut. poor very poor.
240 mrbfaethedee, I would always advice any undertaking to remain within the public sector and be a not for profit service, that utilises any profits to employ more comrades.
Fourstrikes I re-read your post again while drinking coffee, Dam, more wipes please.
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to be fair, the main reason for class sizes not reducing is limitations on the buildings and the number of teachers. there also seems to be a shortage of male primary teachers, probably partly due to the fear of many men to take such a role.
i see nick clegg has breathed a sigh of relief from the tories with his suggestion that tuition fees may not be scrapped. i agree with his point but from a political point of view you can say one of the following:
he's being realistic
he is being disloyal to his supporters
he is being typical lib dem and changing his mind every five minutes.
i've never taken him seriously ever since he lost his temper on live television, something a politician should never, ever do.
fourstrikes:
if the snp ever turn into the ssp i'm voting tory!
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242 ubinworryinmasheep
I'm not convinced giggle is derek. Both monikers were on screen at the same time. Also derek used to make me giggle. Giggle doesn't. It's just party hate sheet stuff.
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Salmond in opposition budget plea
"Scotland's first minister has issued a plea to opposition parties to back his demand for more Westminster funds, to help ease the effects of the recession."
At first I thought this is madness but on reflection I think that Alec thinks that its a win win situation as the opposition are going to dismiss it, another arrow in the quiver now must go and look out my silver bullets.
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#247. At 9:48pm on 20 Sep 2009, fourstrikes wrote:
#241 JRMacClure,
I'm ex SSP and will be pleased to explain any of our policies you might have heard of all the way over the pond (miracle in itself!)
Well, I recently had a friend (American) tell me about having spent a summer working at a resort in the Highlands where a fellow worker gave her a membership card to the SNP. (This was some years ago) Well, she was terrified, convinced it was an anti-government organization and she'd be forever on an FBI list. (Possible anyway, of course) I found the story tremendously amusing and typical. I doubt that one out a thousand Americans have heard of the SSP. I just happen to follow your peculiar brand of politics over there.
I found the reference elucidating coming from Mr. giggles. His anti-American stance doesn't bother me in the least. I've been surprised to not run into it more often although of course he got my politics totally wrong. ;-)
I'll remember to ask you about any SSP policies though. Poor party has run into some rough times.
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248 Oldnat
Late but in earnest, ok, my lateral response.
The goal posts have indeed been moved and I believe the FM ( NOT THE EDUCATION SECRETARY)now accepts the parental and teachers advice of 25 pupils per class.
For all I know! you may play a role in the process of Scottish education.
So I'm sure you will be aware that several new teachers can't find employment within the state system, there are quotes that up to 600 newly qualified teachers can't find a role within our system. I hope you look on that situation very seriously sir.
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thegiggler
Sorry, but most contributors to this blog are capable of distinguishing facts from froth, and can string together a reasoned argument on some level.
Do your parents know what you're up to on that computer?
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#249 giggle
Be careful...are you on a laptop or a desktop, CRT or flatscreen? Choose yer wipes accordingly ;)
#250
That's alright barbarian9, socialists are not nationalists and neither are the Nats socialists. So we all sleep together in the flowery bed...
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#251. At 10:09pm on 20 Sep 2009, oldnat wrote:
242 ubinworryinmasheep
I'm not convinced giggle is derek. Both monikers were on screen at the same time. Also derek used to make me giggle. Giggle doesn't. It's just party hate sheet stuff.
The SSP comment doesn't seem like one Derek would make. Wrong hate sheet I suspect but not really worth giving much thought. Of course, it could also be someone on about giving the poor SSP an even worse voting record than it already has. *shrug*
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#253 JRMacClure
I have a funny story about your fellow countrymen. I was once on a bus in Edinburgh during a Scottish Parliament campaign and there were signs up everywhere for the different parties. In front of me were an American couple trying (very loudly, and to the entertainment of the whole bus) to work out what the different parties stood for on the signs we passed.
"So the Scots are having, like, an election?"
"Seems so, honey."
...
"Conservatives?"
"That's like our Republicans."
"Uh, Labour, is that the Democrats?"
"Yeah, sweetheart."
"Greens?"
"Uh, I don't think it's like Nader..."
"It has to be like Nader!"
"I don't think they know Nader over here."
"Scottish SOCIALIST Party?? Those guys have a red star! Are they communists?"
"Yeah, but it's OK to be a communist over here. This is Europe, honey."
:)
You're right, a rough time indeed. I'm hoping we can rebuild, though in a different way from before.
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#251 oldnat .. umm i'm not so sure .. Derek has had his moments like that and i havent tried it but i think you can post as 2 different people by opening 2 different windows to Brians blog. Anyway is attention seeking rather than putting forward anything tangiable.
#252 Alex's request is just another quality move in his game of chess. Refuse to help and the public see you as anti Scottish but at the same time you cant help as is anti whatever party your in. Mind you following on from #245 maybe the Lib Dems should jump on board as its unlikely they will be making the rules anytime in the future anyway.
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Hey, #257 JRMacClure!
Nowt wrong with our voting record. It was our Party discipline at fault (and I am not supposed to talk about this, so this is all I will say.)
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#255
I accept your apology DD, thank you and may the future "FACTS" be with you.
257 Razzmatazz, all dollars and no passion.$$$$$$$$$$
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249. giggletheloneranger
"I would always advice any undertaking to remain within the public sector and be a not for profit service, that utilises any profits to employ more comrades."
Good, I'm always glad to meet someone who likes public resources to remain in public hands as a matter of principle. Similarly, i'm sure we both agree that more meaningful long term employment for more people would by itself go a long way to helping some of what ails this country.
I'm sure that almost everyone who thinks the decision to not finish GARL was acceptable would also be happy see it completed if the resource was there. Although i'd like to see some obligations and forfeits tied to tenders accepted for government work - it's obviously a complete gravy train for contractors; the tone was set with the parliament building, here we are at GARL and nothing seems to have changed.
Regarding your concern for the jobs associated with GARL (i'm happy to be corrected), any potential jobs lost is a blow of course, but aren't the figures of jobs supported by the project not tied to the whole project, not just the new line to the airport (the bit that got cut, i think).
We can't have everything all at once, particularly not in this climate - to pay for GARL something else would surely have to go, and jobs would surely go with it.
As far as manifesto pledges go - It's a statement of intent, even in first past the post systems where it's easy to get a majority, it can be hard to pull off the majority of your entire manifesto, in minority government - not a snowball's.
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#254 giggletheloneranger
Except here in the US (where they are generally very polite to the elderly) no one has called me "sir", since I retired!
As to the the unemployed teachers, prediction of teacher numbers has been inaccurate since I entered the profession in the 60s. This is especially true in the Primary Sector, where entrants aren't going to join the job market for 3/4 years - unlike the 1 year post grad training programme for most secondary teachers.
I haven't seen the latest unemployed teacher numbers by sector, but the number of secondary teachers needs to be removed as far as this particular issue is concerned. They are not qualified to work in the Primary Sector and are, therefore, as useless as ship's captains in the Infant Department. Additionally, a number of Primary teachers may not be willing to move from where they live to where the jobs are.
As always, reality is far more complex than an opposition party hymn sheet suggests.
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What about cutting the financial sector as well as the public sector
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#199
But you voted for it and its near £600 million plus costing so all the Tory modification (no more money if it went over budget)did was support something with an added irrelevant condition which could do nothing other than make matters worse.
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#263 Oldnat
I fully accept your professional observation and your parity to keep the issue from a political opinion.
Then the reality of the education situation, is negligence of the needs and priorities of the working system.(now, that was political)
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#232
The SNP made a pledge to work towards reducing the numbers in Primaries 1 and 2 to no more than 18. It is obvious to all but the deeply dense that this cannot be achieved except over a considerable period of time and the SNP has pointed this out continuously.
Class sizes are now at their lowest ever level in Scotland and we are moving towards this target in all but a handful of Labour controlled councils. I wonder why.
And I wonder why Glasgow, having been given extra funding to help it towards this goal, has reacted instead by shutting primary schools which contributes to making the aim unachieveable. It can't be lack of funds. Glasgow has just raised the wages of all its employees to a minimum £7 per hour.
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264. cynicalHighlander
The part where he talks about how the furore over bankers moved to a new furore over mp's expenses highlighted one of the saddest things of the whole financial implosion to me. That for all the hot air generated, the public seemed far more outraged that mp's had fiddled their expenses than that the entire world had just been hustled out of trillions. Sheeple we are.
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#260. At 10:32pm on 20 Sep 2009, fourstrikes wrote:
Hey, #257 JRMacClure!
Nowt wrong with our voting record. It was our Party discipline at fault (and I am not supposed to talk about this, so this is all I will say.)
Fourstrikes, I apologize for expressing myself poorly--by voting record, I meant a recent record in the ability to GET votes--which I think you'll admit has been a problem or so it certainly seems.
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#258. At 10:28pm on 20 Sep 2009, fourstrikes wrote:
Haha. Funny story, fourstrikes. I've followed you lot's political goings-on for some time and I still get a headache keeping things straight. My confusion is not always feigned. ;-)
But you don't have Rush Limbaugh (even if you do have Glenn Campbell) so you must be doing something right.
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264. cynicalHighlander
The last paragraph of his piece - pursuing the shut down of tax havens, and dealing with tax avoidance. The guardian (have)had a piece up about a panorama programme (8.30 tomorrow) uncovering Lloyds/HBOS assisting in the very act of tax avoidance. I have it in my rss reader, but it's no longer on the guardian site. I'll post the text if anyone is interested.
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#264. At 11:04pm on 20 Sep 2009, cynicalHighlander wrote:
What about cutting the financial sector as well as the public sector
*sigh* More truth than I even want to think about there. And over here you can count in deeply ingrained stupidity rather than having to bother with a scandal. I can hardly bare to talk about US politics it is so deeply gone wrong.
The chances of our getting out of debt any time in the next few decades? Non-existent. No one is even seriously talking about getting spending under control. It is very, very seriously scary.
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#263. At 10:50pm on 20 Sep 2009, oldnat wrote:
#254 giggletheloneranger
Except here in the US (where they are generally very polite to the elderly) no one has called me "sir", since I retired!
Really?! You're in NC correct? I'm surprised. I have recently been called ma'am during a visit to the South and have in the past found that pretty common.
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#273 JR - 'Really?! You're in NC correct? I'm surprised. I have recently been called ma'am during a visit to the South and have in the past found that pretty common' gosh ..are you the Queen ?
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271. mrbfaethedee
The real sad thing is that I believe an awful lot of our politicians are either complicit or ignorant as they can't flourish without the bankers who walk away and leave the carnage for others to clean up while they spread there disease around the world. Citizen Smith anyone.
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272. JRMacClure
Current Global Debt
Not a pretty picture and it is liable to get worse the longer we delay from taking action to curb those at the top bleeding us dry.
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#273 JRMacClure
It's the norm here in NC (as it was in Scotland when I was a lad). I observe this part of the USA as being at least a generation behind Western Europe on many social patterns. They have kept some of the good bits that we have lost (highly developed community spirit, and politeness among them) but have also kept a lot of the prejudices that we thankfully have got past.
Swings and roundabouts - unless you are one of those not yet accepted as part of society here.
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#276. At 00:26am on 21 Sep 2009, cynicalHighlander wrote:
272. JRMacClure
Current Global Debt
Not a pretty picture and it is liable to get worse the longer we delay from taking action to curb those at the top bleeding us dry.
Thank you for depressing me even further. I can't argue in the least. The solution--I wish I knew. But I've said a word or two in the past about my opinion of the feudal state that the world is in and our delusion that it's any less feudal than the middle ages. The difference, it seems to me, is that they knew who their overlords were and occasionally took a pitchfork (or guillotine) to them when they got out of hand.
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#266 giggletheloneranger
Difficult, isn't it? Do you overtrain the number of teachers you need, but employ them all anyway - thus prioritising the spend of public money on middle class workers, or do you undertrain the numbers and be forced to deliver part-time education to weans?, or direct the workforce to the areas of need (perhaps requiring a married mother of 2 to go teach in Achiltibuie)? etc etc etc.
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#274. At 00:04am on 21 Sep 2009, ubinworryinmasheep wrote:
#273 JR - 'Really?! You're in NC correct? I'm surprised. I have recently been called ma'am during a visit to the South and have in the past found that pretty common' gosh ..are you the Queen ?
LOL *spits coffee* No. It is quite common in the American South for women to be addressed as ma'am. LOL
And I thought men as sir. I'm a bit surprised at Oldnat's comment. In Virginia you still have it happen.
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#280 JRMacClure
Ah! The perils of speed reading!
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JR
Have you come across this?
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/article6842064.ece
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#282 Interesting ... as a coincidence i fancy reading a book i found on my bookshelf which is written my Magnus Magnusson entitled Scotland :The Story of a Nation. Might come in handy whilst waiting for the mods to pass on our posts !
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#282. No, I hadn't and that's hilarious!
“Icelanders who want to practise robbery are advised to go there,” said one saga. “But it may cost them their life.”
Oh, my. That was a good laugh. I wonder if the whole translation is published somewhere. I have to have it.
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Talk about being apt with your timing.
http://news.scotsman.com/latestnews/Hyslop-facing-revolt-over-schools.5663513.jp
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Alex under fire.
http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/politics/salmond-under-fire-over-plans-for-teenage-vote-in-referendum-1.921125
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And even the lib/dems have a go.
http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/politics/scott-attacks-snp-over-rich-handouts-1.921031
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Haha! When isn't Alex Salmond under attack? Looks like he thrives on it.
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#286 So do you believe that you can pay taxes and fight for your country but not be allowed to vote ?
I hardly think quoting articles from the biased Scottish press merits much on here.
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#287 What Tavish Scott doesnt seem to realize is that a family with 2 children earning 15,000 is actually entitled to family tax/working tax credits to around the tune of 4,000 a year...whereas the people earning 30,000 + get nothing. I know this is fact as mine has just been stopped. What is he bleating on about lobsters and champagne for .. both are over rated and the price of his fish supper is ridiculous ..he needs to go to a better chipper !
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#289 ubinworryinmasheep
Hardly a prerequisite to harmony.
You may want to stand with the minority as your fellow Scotsmen are hammered by the tax cutting SNP ,who favour unemployment over employment.
Me, I'll stand firm and take on injustice where ever it raises it's ugly head because you see, it's people like you who support the minority view and lay bare your fellow country men for a slice of greasy Salmond.
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289 ubinworryinmasheep
I hardly think we need be concerned when a Labour Party hack quotes an article saying the SNP is under fire from another Labour Party hack.
As normal - no evidence, no rational argument. Why Labour continues to haemmorrage support from all but the ultra-Brits.
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True, oldnat. I mean someone attacked Alex Salmond and the SNP. Pretty much business as usual. Yet someone Alex Salmond continues as First Minister and I don't see the opposition in a hurry for elections.
Why do you suppose that is? Hmmmm? =)
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#291 giggletheloneranger
The trouble with cheap shoddy rhetoric - "the tax cutting SNP ,who favour unemployment over employment", is that it's like the cheap shoddy goods that conmen peddle to the poor doon the Barras. It falls apart so easily.
The "tax-cutting" charge is clearly nonsense. Council Tax isn't being cut - what is happening is that taxes are not being raised, simply being redistributed from the Council taxpayer to the Income taxpayer - without raising Income Tax. The centre spends less, which centralist Labour must hate! The effective cut in LA spending is, of course, the 3% efficiency saving required by the Labour Government in Westminster, and applies to councils in England, Wales, and NI as well.
I would have to seriously reconsider voting SNP if they favoured "unemployment over employment". Give me some evidence. I follow politics pretty closely, and have seen none - but feel free to provide any justification for a very serious charge.
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I'll be interested in seeing more polls. The last MORI poll was fascinating enough and seemed to indicate a strong trend. More are needed to be sure of a trend though. It looks to be interesting elections at some point.
At the moment, the opposition seems to be scrambling for something that will have some legs with not much success. Look at this weekends rather boring headlines and coverage. The whole anti-Glasgow argument was quite a flop.
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#294 oldnat i can certainly see the advantages of taking your council tax out at source ie wages as it would mean more of it being paid on time. Of course i am not implying that people dont pay but i know some people forget and it builds up till they struggle to catch up. This would save money in that councils wouldnt need to employ people to chase the money. Why are the other partys against such an idea ?
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#293 JRMacClure
I'm quite sure that you have worked this out yourself! :-) but let me present my analysis and see if you agree.
Polling for Holyrood strongly suggests SNP and Tory gains, Labour and Lib-Dem losses. Consequently, only the gainers would be happy to go for an extraordinary election.
A Scottish election in the run up to (or even virtually coincidentally with) the UK election would be a potential disaster for Labour at UK level.
Voting down the Budget (and consequently requiring the resignation of the SNP Government) would only make sense for Lab/LD if the Tories abstained on the proposal to make Gray the FM. If they voted against, no new FM could be chosen and an election would be called. Wouldn't worry the Tories or SNP, but Labour and LD would run a mile.
Even if Annabel Goldie crossed her heart and hoped to die, while promising Gray (in private) to vote for him, he would be out of his mind to believe her.
A Holyrood election in 2010! Bring it on!
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#296 ubinworryinmasheep
I hadn't thought of it that way! You are absolutely right. Whatever posturing there might be from councils over the tax freeze, it is hugely advantageous for them to not have to collect increased council taxes with the consequent loss of revenue than getting 100% of the compensatory cash from the Scottish Government.
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#294Oldnat
Perhaps a short memory Oldnat. J, Swinneys first act almost three years ago was to slap a 2% efficiency saving onto the 32 local council. That tax cutting excercise was a frontline attack on LA services http://www.tes.co.uk/article.aspx?storycode=6011999 and most probably cost the SNP the Glenrothes seat http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/edinburgh_and_east/7710999.stm
Alex Salmond declared after the commonwealth games success, that he would deliver on every single one of the promises, inclusive of the GARL and new employment.
You outline to me, what success you think A freeze on the council tax has brought to the people of Scotland.
After three years of the SNP what have they done to better the Scottish peoples lot, have they significantly raised employment? have they built new schools and made a better education system? just exactly what are the people of Scotland gaining from a failed tax cutting party that favours Thatcher economics?.
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#298 oldnat .. from a quick google (whatever did we do before search engines) i found a bbc news page that said English councils had written off 133 million in unpaid council tax last year. So I would say take the collecting away from the councils and put it to the tax office would make more sense... of course there will be some niggles but surely these can be ironed out.
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#297 oldnat ...'Even if Annabel Goldie crossed her heart and hoped to die' ..erm has she got one ?
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#297 That's exactly how it looks to me Oldnat.
The SNP and Tories win either way. An election sooner, they increase their numbers (even though Tory numbers still won't exactly be impressive) and later they increase their numbers even more from the way the trends are going. Not a bad situation to be in really. And yes, even Iain Gray surely isn't stupid enough to trust Annabel Goldie to support him for FM. She would keep such a promise--why? When an election would be to her party's benefit.
Can't argue at all with your analysis.
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#299 Labour have been in power far longer than the SNP and what have they done appart from nearly bankrupt the country. If you believe that only Gordon or Dave can save us you are a fool. Scotland needs to be away from all the double dealings and consultants that Labour/Torys are keen on.
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Ah, so the architects of the "Arc of insolvency" want to borrow more monies from Westminster and when it all goes wrong again, they will simply just play the blame game.
http://www.heraldscotland.com/salmond-defiant-in-his-defence-of-the-arc-of-insolvency-1.848107
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#299 giggletheloneranger
Where to start?
Firstly, thank you Labour for giving me quite a comfortable income for a few years in providing data, demanded by the former Scottish Executive in their accounting demands for their ring-fenced funding lines. Since the LA I mainly worked for had a sensible Finance Director, they were able to dispense with the likes of me rather than cutting the staff that others had employed for this rather fruitless pursuit. If you think there were no efficiencies to be made in LAs, then you have no comprehension as to reality. Additionally, you are in conflict with your own party on this.
As to Glenrothes - there were no doubt other factors, but we'll never know since the records have been incinerated.
The Council Tax freeze has had pretty clear benefits to every one who pays Council Tax. They have more disposable income to make ends meet and to spend on services which employ people. Naturally, if you wanted tax to be adjusted to be more appropriate to income to be more adjusted to income you would support LIT - but you reject any alternative to the Tory Council Tax.
I'll ignore your sloganising - I've already exposed that nonsense, but any useless government can claim the credit for building schools etc, when they simply postponed the payment to future governments and tax payers. Now what useless party would that be?
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#214 JRMacClure
"By the way, does html work on this site? I've never found anything that said."
Selected bits of HTML do work. See my #84 on the New ways into blogs thread and my #75 on the same thread.
Since that thread was closed, the BBC techies have finally fixed the bug in displaying the UTF-8 character set, which includes being able to post emspaces [&8195;], as a partial compensation for the loss of <blockquote>. See my #123 on the New Look For BBC Blogs thread.
#235 mrbfaethedee
There's probably more of this stuff on one of the open threads on the BBC Internet Blog. Trying to document it is a little disheartening because the BBC keep moving the goalposts.
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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# 304 giggletheloneranger
There must be a reason why the 'Herald' would wish to republish a story from Oct, 2008, but I don't know what it is. I'm sure that if the 'Herald' wanted to it could do the same for the other political parties, but it doesn't and I would have to assume that it is trying to stir things up.
You, attempting to bring this to the attention of the readers of this blog are showing us that you think this may be of importance unless you are trying to point out that Labour, at the same moment in time, was telling us that everything was ok with the economy and Brown was on top of the 'credit crunch', but I don't think that you were trying to do that. Nor do I think that you are attempting to point out that Ireland is coming out of the recession stronger than the UK, who, under Labour helped cause this mess in the first place, or that Iceland has already started to pay off its debts, as opposed to Labour who are getting us into more debts. So what is your point in bringing up this link?
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I live in Aberdeen, but I regret the withdrawal of funds from the air links projects- they would have benefitted the whole of Scotland, not just Glasgow/Edinburgh. The lack of well integrated tansport is a major problem in Scotland- having a joined up system is in many ways more benefical that have a few very rapid services, or high profile stunts like trams with a very limited range. I'd have preferred a small increase in council taxes to help achieve these aims, even if the original completion dates were delayed. It strikes me that on independence, Scotland will be like the present UK in miniature, with the NE still feeling that they have not benefitted enough from the offshore oil industry. Our awful roads are the means by which the industry is serviced, rail links are minimal, indeed non-existent over much of the region, and those of us not in the oil industry find it difficult to compete with the high prices of housing and services resulting from the presence of a small proportion of very well paid people in our community. There is also a perception that we're all rich, resulting in ridiculous inequality in the council tax subsidy.
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306. Brownedov
"Trying to document it is a little disheartening because the BBC keep moving the goalposts."
Yes! Which is exactly why they should do it. I can't believe they don't have a link to a guide page for their current html support at the bottom of each blog page.
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Is the BBBC in Scotland changing into the Scotsman?
I see we "COULD be suffering from misdiagnosis "on a grand scale.
Not " we ARE" not "Definitely" Just " COULD BE"
A Technique learned from the Scotsman and irritatingly misleading.
I read the President of the Superpower is urging a nuclear disarmament prog , and more power to his elbow say I, but drivelling along behind comes the juvenile banana muncher in the Guardian, clutching the tailcoat of the US as usual.
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CBI calling for students to pay more for their education
Maybe it's about time businesses payed a graduate tax - they are beneficiaries too.
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310# diabloandco- well spotted I fully agree with you and have just posted the same on graham's blog over on Radio Scotland.
this lot should be going to their GP's , depression is treatable ,but then again they would probably think they were being misdiagnosed!!
Sid
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#291 - "You may want to stand with the minority as your fellow Scotsmen are hammered by the tax cutting SNP ,who favour unemployment over employment."
The problem with chucking about these kind of irrational smears, unfunnythederanged, is you end up catching yerself out. You quote Tavish Scott, claiming that the SNP's budget favours the rich. You then immediately assert that the budget encourages unemployment. Like pushmi-pullyu, you're trying to face two different directions at the same time. And like pushmi-pullyu, you look equally ridiculous.
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#307 gedguy2
"So what is your point in bringing up this link?"
Excellent post, but I fear you'll not get a sensibe response from the giggler.
#309 mrbfaethedee
"Yes! Which is exactly why they should do it. I can't believe they don't have a link to a guide page for their current html support at the bottom of each blog page."
True, but the BBC techies always seem to want to experiment with something new rather than get what they have already implememented right. Ever since they switched to Movable Type in Spring 2008 they have been unable to resist tweaking the controls occasionally. Before that, there was a guide to available HTML in the help. If they really cared about such things, they could offer a rich-text control as Yahoo and others now do, in order to make life easy for everyone.
Now they seem to have moved on to tweaking their strange new scheme of IP apartheid.
Looking on the bright side, it only took them just over a year to come to terms with UTF-8 so that we can now use £££s, €€€s and characters like ö, é and ñ as well as Cyrillics like Россуя [=Russia] when we need to, so it would be unfair to say they've made no progress.
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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Quite sad really that the BBC have had to send Glen Campbell all the way to the USA to try and find the SILENT MAJORITY.
And they still can't quite get people to say exactly what they (the BBC)want to hear.
Sid.
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Well perhaps a blessing in disguise, I'm quite sure the rail link between some parts of the country to Prestwick Airport etc might be used to some extent but I suspect most prefer to use either their own transport or be dropped off, I can't see those travelling to Glasgow Airport would be any diffrent. But when it comes to massive cost projects aka Scottish Parliamment / Edinburgh Trams both circa £500m +, one disaster with another pending, what a joke this nation has become when viewed by the rest of the world!
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#310 diabloandco - and now we find out that the report that triggered the programme and "BBC Scotland INVESTIGATION" is not from Scotland ,it is not from England &Wales in fact it is not even from Europe. Surprise surprise it's from the USA. We all know how good the U.S. Health system is . Almost as good as BBC Scotland. They are both Pathetic, Sad, and Predictable.
Sid
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@315, sidthesceptic wrote:
"Quite sad really that the BBC have had to send Glen Campbell all the way to the USA"
Sad?
Only that he will assuredly return....
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I've got a lot of time for Vince Cable, but has he lost it?
LiBDems to hammer £1m homeowners
Yet again, the LibDems miss the point - just because someone has a big (or valuable) house, it DOES NOT FOLLOW that the occupants have lots of money!
Local Income Tax is the FAIREST option.
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#313 ForteanJo
I'll say it! so here digest it.
The rich don't work as per say. Only fools and horses work.
Could I encourage you to think less about the personal attack and more about the principle point.
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Not often I agree with the LibDems but if you can afford a £1m residence then you either pay the tax on it or move somewhere smaller. Yes a Local Income Tax is the best option, however no reason why we can't also tax the owners of these kind of houses. A progressive property tax should be part of John Swinneys plans too.
£1m is far too high threshold anyway, why not set it at 1.5x the median property value?
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#307. At 08:31am on 21 Sep 2009, gedguy2 wrote:
# 304 giggletheloneranger
There must be a reason why the 'Herald' would wish to republish a story from Oct, 2008...
I thought about that one. It's not as though it's a good, impressive or well-written story. It isn't even very good as an attack piece.
I know that, like most newspapers, they're short on money. Maybe it was a cost saving move by not having a reporter write a new one and they hoped no one would notice it was a year old?
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#316 redrobb
"But when it comes to massive cost projects aka Scottish Parliamment / Edinburgh Trams both circa £500m +, one disaster with another pending, what a joke this nation has become when viewed by the rest of the world!"
And thus spake the Scottish cringe! Precisely how many of the "rest of the world" have told you that? All you are doing is projecting your own feelings of inferiority onto the rest of humanity, the vast majority of whom neither know nor care about these projects.
There's little worse than the sad wee soul who simultaneously holds the contrary beliefs that his country is weak, stupid and incompetent, but also that it is so important that every one else knows all about it.
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# 319 - isn't this just Vince Cable trying to come up with a populist tax increase? All the parties will be trying to do the same thing - Labour have tried it with the 50% tax band on income over £150k (although it appears that this threhold may have to have to be reduced). The reality is that it is impossible for the government to raise taxes to make a meaningful difference to the budget deficit without large numbers of the popultaion suffering some pain; what VC has proposed is, in my view a political stunt. It is reported that it will raise £1bn a year but it is not clear if this is before or after the costs of administering it such as property valuation and collection costs.
Over the past number of years, each of the parties has tried to court the "middle classes" but I'm afraid this cannot do on. There will have to be significant tax increases for middle income families. I reckon that we will be looking at some or all of the following: abolition of top rate tax relief on pension contributions, means testing of child benefit, lowering of the threshold at which families qualify for tax credits, reform of the voucher system for child care so that it only applies to low income families. Although in my view there is fairness in much of these changes, they will be politically unpopular. What might make these changes more popular is if the masses see the super-rich getting an even tougher time; cue Vince Cable's new idea. It is pure gimmickery. The next thing will be taxing ownership of Ferraris or ponies or a tax on having a posh sounding name.
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#320 - "Could I encourage you to think less about the personal attack and more about the principle point. "
If your principle point had any merit, it would perhaps be worth thinking about. It doesn't.
You claim the SNP encourages unemployment. Explain why.
Could I encourage you to think less about the smears and more about the principle point to your argument?
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#315. At 11:49am on 21 Sep 2009, sidthesceptic wrote:
Quite sad really that the BBC have had to send Glen Campbell all the way to the USA to try and find the SILENT MAJORITY.
And they still can't quite get people to say exactly what they (the BBC)want to hear.
Oh, dear. We already have a superfluity of bad news reporters. What "silent majority" is the poor dear trying to find? The millions who are supposedly boycotting Scotland and are terribly angry about al-Megrahi? (Ha!) Or are the on about something else now?
Remember, some of us are blessed by not getting his coverage. ;-)
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#323 Oldnat
" This country is weak, stupid and incompetent, but also that it is so important that every one else knows all about it."
I maybe wouldn't have gone as far as that Oldnat, nevertheless, someone has got to speak out.
Good stuff/ always room for more followers.
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#323. At 5:17pm on 21 Sep 2009, oldnat wrote:
#316 redrobb
"But when it comes to massive cost projects aka Scottish Parliamment / Edinburgh Trams both circa £500m +, one disaster with another pending, what a joke this nation has become when viewed by the rest of the world!"
You know redrbb, I hate to tell you this but mostly the rest of the world neither knows nor cares. Honestly. And as disastrous projects go, it's actually small potatoes. I dislike adding to the really ANNOYING Scottish cringe element, but it's the truth. The list of cost over-runs and "roads to nowhere" in the US is almost endless. Yet I don't see Americans going around whinging about how we're a joke--even when we are.
You know, being Scottish really does NOT make you inferior.
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#324 nedafo
I like the idea. How about vanity number plates, weeds in the front garden and / or £ for lb you are Over/Under your correct BMI?
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Interesting article in the Herald today regarding Greg Dyke and his accusation regarding the BBC as being part of the conspiracy (along with the press and politicians) preventing radical change in UK democracy.
As many bloggers have raged about BT’s wording of statements, Glenn Campbell’s frenetic interviewing style when facing an SNP interviewee, Maddox et al, I thought there might have been a right good blast on this today. What happened? Has everyone shrugged their shoulders and said told you so?
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#327 giggletheloneranger
That you resort to deliberate falsification in selectively quoting oldnat's #323 as well as continuing to post no positives for your own side [whatever that is] merely confirms your trollity.
At least we now know for sure that you're not derek. Come to that, you're not even a re-incarnation of R-E, who was endowed with many faults but not those.
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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The ambassador's 'special' relationship
Click Here
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Why has the link to these blogs not been updated on the politics page?
Four days an still not showing !!
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#326 JRMacClure - afternoon JR, yes that is exactly what he is looking for. radio Scotland have a phone in and on 3 days on the trot ,a few weeks ago, they were actually asking on air for "the silent majority " to get in touch as their programmes were not quite going the way they wanted.
They then tried to tell us that there was an anti- Glasgow bias and gleefully had a programme about that and the silent majority were posted missing again.
don't know about you but even I can see a pattern here.
Wee Glen will try his hardest but i won't hold my breath . he he.
Sid
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Scottish Secretary Jim Murphy challenges Alex Salmond to 'head to head' debate
Let's call his bluff, but Nicola Sturgeon should take him on and not on Murphy's terms either - an honest debate on the constitution. However, we need to be sure that the BBC don't get to control the thing, it has to be televised but the chair needs to be someone impartial and honest.
Murphy will be slaughtered, he cannot think on his feet - unlike Cairns who was capable if obnoxious.
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Murphy throws down debate gauntlet at Salmond
"Alex Salmond has, remarkably, turned down Murphy's offer.
His spokesman says the FM debates every week with Iain Gray at Holyrood, so has no need to go toe-to-toe with Murphy on Wednesday."
I hope he told him that he deals with those of importance in the UK and is not available for any Tom, Dick or Harry who wishes to debate issues that are important to Scotland.
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#330 Robabody
Yes.
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What I found interesting was this:
Cable warns “major constitutional crisis” could break-up the UK if Conservatives win General Election
http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/politics/cable-warns-major-constitutional-crisis-could-break-up-the-uk-if-conservatives-win-general-election-1.921267
Interestingly enough, I think his comments may be pretty close to spot on.
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Also Jim Murphy challenged Alex Salmond to a debate which rather made me sputter and laugh.
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No. Next question, does the London Government have an inherent anti-Scottish bias (discuss)?
I hope Aunty Beeb is at least as willing to have this debate as the other one!
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#330 Robabody
"Has everyone shrugged their shoulders and said told you so?"
It would appear so, and particularly the L-D politburo, what with Clegg and Scott flexing their anti-democratic muscles [I use the term loosely] and all.
mrbfaethedee's #244 did link to the Herald's BBC part of conspiracy, says Dyke, and even this website reported it yesterday with: Dyke in BBC 'conspiracy' claim.
Par for the course with the distinctly unLib unDems, I suppose, or part of their new campaign to drive away voters in South East England, perhaps. How odd for a party supposedly still in favour of local income tax as being a fairer system.
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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It's only words but my god! they are very concerning words.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/blog/2008/sep/22/scotland.snp
Arc of prosperity anyone.
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#334. Let me know if Mr. Campbell succeeds in finding people in the US who remember who al-Megrahi IS much less are forming a backlash about it. LOL
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#331 Brownedov
You seem an interesting person, very Balkanized with your views. Tell me, are you related too Oldnat or are you simply backing the notion that our wee country really looks after our own.
Pretendy wee game!
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Another quote from Mr. Cable from the Herald article I referred to:
He said the scenario would be a "terrible tragedy" for Britain because the UK was "one of the great creations of this country".
So Britain is the greatest creation of--Britain. Pardon me while I digest that. h.
Or perhaps he meant Britain was the greatest creation of England? Hmmmm Come to think of it, that is probably what he meant. And an interesting way of looking at it--and historically truthful at that.
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#339
Ha MacClure, so slim Jim wants to take the 400£/Lb pie-man on.
Me thinks your man cant last the pace.
Splutter/wipes please.
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Voting age cut proposal 'cynical'
"But Labour has dismissed the move as a cynical attempt to keep the independence debate going."
Surprise Gordon Brown backs Votes at 16
"The Prime Minister admitted that "major constitutional reform is necessary" and that, as part of a response to the current scandals about MPs expenses but also to improve democracy for good, he proposed "a new consititutional settlement." Explaining more precisely what that means, Gordon Brown said "I'm looking at the case for Votes at 16... We're proposing Votes at 16 as an issue that young people should look at themsleves."
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#342. At 7:06pm on 21 Sep 2009, giggletheloneranger wrote:
It's only words but my god! they are very concerning words.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/blog/2008/sep/22/scotland.snp
Haha! And they promptly closed comments. Weren't getting quite the reaction they wanted, one supposes. Very funny. Right up your alley though with unsubstantiated attacks.
Of course, all attacks like these do is boost Mr. Salmond's popularity rating. He lives and breathes on these things. Wonder when these losers will winkle that out. Ha! Very amusing to watch.
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#338 JRMacClure
"Interestingly enough, I think his comments may be pretty close to spot on."
Thanks for the link, and I'd agree that his "I think that within a year's time, maybe two years' time, there will be a major constitutional crisis in Britain" is very much on target.
What's odder is that the L-D's "federalist policies" now seem to be off the menu, at least so far as Clegg and Scott are concerned.
The break-up of the UK may well be the appropriate outcome but it is both odd and sad that it seems likely to be edging closer by default rather than as the preferred constitutional settlement of the majority due to the lack of any positive constitutional proposals from the SNP's opponents.
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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re 342
Why post to an article that is a year old.
Maybe you should look at this one about Norways oil.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2009/sep/20/norway-sovereign-wealth-fund
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Norway's sovereign wealth fund: £259bn and growing
"Each morning Yngve Slyngstad heads to his office at the top floor of Norway's central bank and checks how the investments of the world's largest sovereign wealth fund outside the Middle East are doing. At £259bn, they have never been higher and could easily cover the UK's £175bn budget deficit."
Not bad for a small country of only 5 million.
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#344
Aha! I see our Mr. giggles is proposing that wee, poor Scotland can't look after its own and needs England to look after it. There are certainly some who would agree.
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Online Ed Here
I posted this earlier, it offers an insight into the comments from the so called 'ambassador' for Scotland who suggested that Scotland's relationship with the USA needed repairing after the Megrahi release.
Labour's fingerprints are all over this as the article demonstrates.
The ambassador's 'special' relationship
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You have to admit that the SNP owes a huge debt to Labour. But POOR Labour!
I've rarely seen a party implode quite so badly. For a man who gives every indication of hating Alex Salmond, Gordon Brown has done him more favors than you can count.
I'm sure there is some appropriate Scottish phrase of astonishment for this whole year's politics but it's one that escapes me at the moment. I can hardly blame our giggles person for showing up to try to counterattack.
I mean--can Labour shoot themselves in the other foot now for a while? This is getting painful to watch.
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#349. The break-up of the UK may well be the appropriate outcome but it is both odd and sad that it seems likely to be edging closer by default rather than as the preferred constitutional settlement of the majority due to the lack of any positive constitutional proposals from the SNP's opponents.
I'm not quite sure that will end up being the case. An overwhelming Tory victory at Westminster might (and I realize it doesn't look this way at the moment but this could put huge pressure on Scottish parties) just might cause a change in the Scottish parties. Labour? Probably not.
But possibly the smaller parties. At some point they have to realize that if they want to survive they need to start actually serving the wants and needs of Scots. And one of those wants for a very long time HAS been a referendum on Scotland's constitution future and the right for the people to decide that for themselves.
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I read Greg Dykes comments with interest and now that he has voiced them I find it hard to believe that we did'nt all notice the creeping politicising of the BBBC way back.
Even his " resignation" did'nt quite set the bells ringing for me, but then I thought he was one of a bullying establishment at the BBBC anyway.
An excellent mealy mouthed response given by a BBBC spokesperson.
Aye! We all love Aunty Beeb right enough!
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The unsurprising verdict on Scottish Labour leader Iain Gray
"The most obvious criticism is that he is “Gray by name and grey by nature”. Some in his party have concluded that he is simply not up to it — that he is not one of life’s natural party leaders. Specifically, they wonder what the Gray strategy is for a Labour revival in Scotland — if, that is, there is one."
Not until we're independent.
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I note that Brians counterpart has stopped comment on his blog really early.In fact he is doing that more and more.
Wonder whats upset Old Nick?
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Where are the 8,000 new jobs?
http://www.sundaymail.co.uk/news/scottish-news/2009/04/19/first-minister-alex-salmond-pledges-to-spend-95m-to-beat-recession-78057-21289186/
Well we know where three job went.
http://rossthomson.wordpress.com/2009/08/03/staying-on-as-an-mp-means-alex-salmond-personally-gains-by-more-than-200-000/
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#350@351. Thanks for the Norway Oil Fund link.
Meanwhile Westminster have spent all our oil money so that we can't afford a couple of miles of railway to Glasgow airport. Never mind anti-Glasgow but focus on anti-Scotland policies from Westminster. Why have we let this happen? Makes me sick.
Freedom
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#354JRMacClure
Gee-Whiz, Shockerooney! the yank in his tank has another misfire.
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#344 giggletheloneranger
"You seem an interesting person, very Balkanized with your views."
Very percipient of you. I suppose your post does at least prove you can read.
Why not break the habit of a lifetime and let us know something of your views, or do they really just consist of union good, home rule bad?
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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# 342 giggletheloneranger
Another posting dated September 2008 trying to make it look as if it is something new. Is there something wrong with you that you cannot find anything more up to date?
How about this: Brown, the man who presided over the economy for the last 10 years has finally admitted that there were going to be cuts after denying that Labour was going to do any cuts.
Cuts! cuts cuts after years of talking about financial prudence. Answer that one if you dare.
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/north_east/8267483.stm
I see Trump Junior is keeping well up with his old Dad in the daft hair stakes.
Why won't these dreadful people take a hint and go away?
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# 359 giggletheloneranger
At least your first link is getting better; it's only april 2009 this time. Well done for getting into this year.
I wonder what your Labour friends would think of you pulling in a prospective Conservative candidate's website to support your anti-SNP stance. You really must be getting desperate reading his website considering that the questions that he poses has been shot down ages ago. Mind you, desperate times calls for desperate measures and you are definitely showing desperate measures. Keep it up, I can do with a laugh as Brown and his mismanagement of Britain's economy has wiped the smile off my face.
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It's quite apt that as the debate moves towards the clear politicising of the BBC a Unionist appears who seems to show much the same penchant for repeats as the BBC do.
Even the Daily Record political correspondent is reduced to stealing jibes first adopted by independence supporters when Murphy first uttered his 'arc of insolvency' comments, the Indiana Jones puns were commonplace and exclusively aimed at Murphy.
I don't think I've ever witnessed Unionists so bereft of arguments - Murphy's desperate plea for a debate with Salmond is a case in point. I would have loved to see Murphy taken apart but can understand the SNP response given that they have had to do nothing but watch recently as Labour falls apart.
One excellent example of why Scottish journalists have to treat Labour politicians with kid gloves happened on Friday after the budget proposal. David Whitton was being interviewed on Good Morning Scotland by Glenn Campbell and was parotting out the usual guff when Campbell actually asked him a serious question - "What would you do then?".
There followed around 3 seconds of silence [it's a lomg time on radio] from Whitton, who clearly had not prepared for such a basic question. His preparation was based entirely on attacking the SNP and he had absolutely no alternative proposals to offer.
In fact the interview contained another 'missed opportunity' for Scotland's headline writers when Whitton openly criticised Purcell's anti-Glasgow phrase, Whitton was asked whether he agreed with it and he replied that it was "a bit strong".
Not in the same league as Brian Taylor's Chisholm moment but deserving of coverage surely.
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#355 JRMacClure
"I'm not quite sure that will end up being the case."
Indeed I hope I'm wrong about it, but...
NuLab seem to have lost both their raison d'etre [if they ever had one] and the fighting spirit they once had. The small parties tend to be pro-home rule, but sadly few Tories are as constitutionally enlightened as Dean whilst the L-Ds seem to have entirely lost their way, perhaps dreaming of a junior place in a coalition with a resurrected Labour party post Duff Gordon.
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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#363 gedguy
Your quite right with your analyising and I'm totally against any form of cuts.
The SNP put Scotland into recession mode the day they took office forcing cuts onto LA departments and redirecting funds into failed projects like the SFT scheme.
Take my link on post 359, I am no way involved with the tory party whatsoever, however the fact that the political candidate spoke from a position as a resident of that area speaks volumes about the preceptions of one Alex Salmond MP MSP and FM.
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#361. At 9:15pm on 21 Sep 2009, giggletheloneranger wrote:
#354JRMacClure
Gee-Whiz, Shockerooney! the yank in his tank has another misfire.
LOL You mean it's not painful to watch Labour shoot itself in the foot--time after time after time? I beg to differ. It really does make me cringe for them. After all, I have no reason to dislike the poor twits.
It's not my country they've managed to pretty much bankrupt. It's not my oil money they've wasted. It's not my country they continue to deny self-determination.
Like my ol' gramps used to say, "I ain't got no dog in this fight."
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#365 gedguy
Come judgement day the electorate will judge the SNP admin by it's action and hey guess what gedguy, there's a litany of slip ups and mistakes by A.S. From the "ARC OF INSOLVENCY! right through to the part that opposes jobs and favours tax cuts for the rich.
You might want to reflect! that there is more to live than waving a tartan scarf and having borders.
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#366. At 9:45pm on 21 Sep 2009, U14094468 wrote:
Murphy's desperate plea for a debate with Salmond is a case in point. I would have loved to see Murphy taken apart but can understand the SNP response given that they have had to do nothing but watch recently as Labour falls apart.
If there had been anything LIKE honest coverage, someone would have asked why the heck Mr. Salmond should debate a representative of a member of a party that is clearly going down to defeat the first second people are allowed to vote. He would do this--WHY?
Although, I have agree it would have been entertaining.
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Tavish on the radio doesn't want to discuss a referendum on independence he wishes to talk about 75,000 jobs lost under the SNP administration so the recession is all due to the SNP nice one.
Lost advert in Shetland: Brain cells gone missing one careful owner please return to Lib dem office and we will put them up for auction to the highest bidder due to there rarity in the party.
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#367. At 9:55pm on 21 Sep 2009, Brownedov wrote:
NuLab seem to have lost both their raison d'etre [if they ever had one] and the fighting spirit they once had. The small parties tend to be pro-home rule, but sadly few Tories are as constitutionally enlightened as Dean whilst the L-Ds seem to have entirely lost their way, perhaps dreaming of a junior place in a coalition with a resurrected Labour party post Duff Gordon.
I am thinking that there is a possibility that Tories having a lock on Whitehall may kick a few hard enough to wake them up to the future. Admittedly, it doesn't look so at the moment, but that will be one strong wake-up call.
Whether it actually will wake up some of the drowsier--or will they do the same as some we see on this blog and simply get stuck in automatic (and brainless) attack mode?
Time will tell.
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From the latest BBC Scotland news manipulation:
The US government has said it does not want to punish Scotland for releasing the man convicted of the Lockerbie bombing, Abdelbasset al-Megrahi.
You've got to laugh at the desperate attempts by the state broadcaster to twist anything in order to lend credence to their now shot to pieces claims of an American backlash or mass outrage agaist Scotland.
Unable to find anyone in Scotland bar Unionist politicians to back their agenda they were forced to send a team to the USA where they were politely told that the story has passed - move along.
Their desperation saw them go to the university so badly affectedby the atrocity in search of someone who would provide them with the much needed quotes.
There never was significant outrage, there never was a serious boycott, no evidence bar the rantings of what's left of the Unionist establishment in Scotland.
The BBC in Scotland confirm with every passing day that they are mere propagandists - and not very good ones at that. Newsnight Scotland ran the flags footage again, it's that pathetic.
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#368 giggletheloneranger
"The SNP put Scotland into recession mode the day they took office forcing cuts onto LA departments and redirecting funds into failed projects like the SFT scheme."
So, with traditional funding unavailable and PPP/PFI still representing a black hole despite promises and countless FOI requests, as a government with no fiscal borrowing powers how would you fund capital investment?
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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324. nedafo
"isn't this just Vince Cable trying to come up with a populist tax increase?"
I agree - I think Saint Vince is looking and sounding distinctly pedestrian now that policies are called for - it's not like being the darling of the political media as he has for the past few months.
-----
By the way did anyone find the head of Total (the oil company) telling the bbc interviewer that investment would have to be found for future petrochem development, was a little rich?
Is that us plebs receiving fair warning that were about to be scalped by another titan of the economy in a wee while?
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ICM poll in tomorrow's Guardian - UK finding
"Even Labour supporters do not trust their party: only 36% of current Labour supporters, and just 26% of its 2005 voters, think the government is telling the truth about debt."
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#370. At 10:15pm on 21 Sep 2009, giggletheloneranger wrote:
#365 gedguy
Come judgement day the electorate will judge the SNP admin by it's action...
Ahhh. Now for once, I happen to agree with our giggles. The electorate will judge. They may look for people who have enough backbone to stand up to bullying and who put Scotland ahead of the Union. Or they may not. They could believe excuses by Labour that it wasn't really them who bankrupted a country and wasted precious assets.
But in Scotland it will be a two-party race. Everyone else looks to be totally irrelevant. SSP is non-existent. LibDems have made themselves a joke.
We will indeed see.
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#370 giggletheloneranger
"there's a litany of slip ups and mistakes by A.S. From the "ARC OF INSOLVENCY! right through to the part that opposes jobs and favours tax cuts for the rich."
So do you think the pollsters are being lied to when they report the state of the parties? One poll by one pollster may be a "rogue", but why do you think all of them are so wrong?
And can you suggest why NuLab have been for tax hikes for the poor in Westmidden, where a million or so of the poorest taxpayers have been left even poorer after Duff Gordon's 10p tax con? Or why NuLab in Holyrood were against tax cuts for the poor by voting down LIT?
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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!! Off topic !!
I lodged a complaint regarding pre-moderation (no offense mods - i'm sure you're awesome!), and got a nice email back saying it does get circulated around various organs inside the beeb.
I lodged a suggestion of looser moderation too - so as to balance the negativity of my complaint :)
I also posted about it on one of the open threads Brownedov mentioned earlier - but no bites from anyone at the Beeb, although someone who was quite happy with pre-moderation enjoyed telling me so.
I think the account level modding mentioned by oldnat or brownedov (sorry can't remember) would be good.
I doubt complaining/suggesting's really worth the effort, i'm sure if the beeb wanted to allow looser moderation it would already have happened - nut you've got to try. Has anyone else had any fedback from the beeb, or fancy geting some?
Ooops, just realised that people might be happy with pre-modding - who's for or against?
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#372 cynical
Did he say how many of them were in Glasgow? Or is this pogrom purely a Labour one?
Did he give any clue as to how he came up with 75,000 or is he, perhaps, giggle?
But in the spirit of fairness if you can blame Global for 3 million unemployed, you ought to be castigating Salmond for 8.4% of them. Oh dear that's 252,000, surely LibDems can count, can't they?
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370. giggletheloneranger
"Come judgement day the electorate will judge the SNP"
I've been voting SNP for a few years now, and that's the thing giggletheloneranger, the thought of the electorate judging the SNP, Labour, Conservative, and the LibDems is what i'm looking forward to.
I fully expect to be happier as a current SNP supporter that a supporter of any of the other parties.
The Labour Party are the ones who have sold out ordinary people, and the Labour Party will pay a heavy price. They know it, it's why they're flailing about like boxer on his way down and out.
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338. At 6:43pm on 21 Sep 2009, JRMacClure
Cable is a brilliant and honest man. I like and trust him.
He does have a point potentially of a greater threat to the union if the tories win.
This however assumes Cameron doesnt want to appease Scottish public opinion- I have a fleeting suspicion that he will offer fiscal autonomy to Scotland. This is practical (cuts made in Scotland therefore qill not be due to the Westminster tories), and it is also most beneficial to Scottish voters (this policy is the most beneficial above all other altnernatives in my views).
But I may be hoping that we Scottish tories get more freedom from English party HQ by greatrer devolution....
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#375
Can I just point out to Brownedov that his "Brothers in arms" and "Thick as thieves" stance is quite charming, however can I also take this Opportunity to point out to the Blakanite that this web-site is very much a political web-site and if Brownedov wants to exchange personal stuff, can I suggest he signs up to some form the the be-bo web-sites.
Now! continue without the rifle oldchap.
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335. U14094468
"Scottish Secretary Jim Murphy challenges Alex Salmond to 'head to head' debate"
I think it's right to ignore him for now. An election run-in soon, deny them the initiative in all things and keep powder dry for the real thing.
Let's see him getting skelped when everyone's paying attention.
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#373 JRMacClure
True.
My own guess is that NuLab and the L-Ds will continue to give their impressions of rabbits stuck in the headlamps until the Tories win an overall majority at the general election on the basis of English votes. What they do between then and the 2011 Scottish elections is much more conjectural.
Now past midnight CET so TTFN.
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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#377. oldnat
No meaningful Scottish results though. Really does it say anything new except that all but the most die-hard Labourite now hates Labour?
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#377 Oldnat
My, Oldnat, you are filling the void now.
Your absolutely right of course, it is the mother of all recession and the bank bail out is enough just to wipe out a major part of Scotland's projected wealth. That's why it was madness for this SNP government to pull the strings on any future projects that would have brought investment and jobs like the GARL most certainly would have.
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So wee Gen's bubble has bust. The Americans are still going to be our friends in spite of the "outrage" regarding the release od al-Megrahi.
One wonders if the thought process went something like;
"Whadya mean we have to give up Scotch! What! They make the stuff! Goddam, they can't be all bad then. Move on!"
I notice that "the website" isn't advertising this fact yet. Funny how some stories make it to the headlines at lightning speed, and some only make tardy and brief appearances. It really aggravates me when the british institutions attempt to subtly alter our perceptions. Pity is there are so many who don't see wwhat is happening, and fall for the mind control. Black Ops are working ovetime just now, they are running scared that we're going to spoil thier party. They are right. It's coming yet for 'a that.
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Brownedov, I don't draw on the question of pollsters.
I happen to know from experience that many voters do change their minds on the day and with a little help of relating realism to the charge of action, then doubt and change will always play it's part.
After three years of SNP government can you name me one defining thing they have done to better Scotland,s lot.
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Re: Jim Murphy and his offer to go head to head in debate with the First Minister. How does that sit with the remit of SoS? Does it really fit the job description?
The man is always wittering on about the SNP picking fights with Westminster and how everyone must work together in a spirit of co-operation for the good of the country etc, etc.
Don't think the First Minister should demean himself by debating with the monkey rather than the organ grinder but I'm sure the SNP could find someone to wipe the floor with him.
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381. handclapping
"surely LibDems can count, can't they?"
Asked calumcashley and I think the answer might be a big NO.
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Murphy has more to learn from Salmond than vica versa. Alex should keep his cards close to his chest for the time being. It would have been entertaining though to hear him destroying Murphy's mantra, 'saving the banks, Iceland, Ireland, we're better together than apart...etc'. I suggest that Murphy has offered this contest in the certain knowledge that Salmond wouldn't rise to the bait.
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#392 cynical
I say that's jolly unsporting to doubt a chaps word. I mean, if we politicians can't lie to the little people, who can?
The duck house? It's floating in the West Moat, dear. She's got more nags than a racing stables. This isn't on the record, is it?
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#393,
Yep, you are probably right, I'm just impatient to see the man brought down a peg or two.
A little off topic - I see that Faroe Petroleum Plc have begun drilling a sidetrack appraisal well to assess the commerciality of the new gas find just off Shetland. Lets hope it is good news, every little helps.
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#393 hamish42
I thought he'd got it from Call-me-Dave's challenge to Global. Our Spud has got great aspirations!
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The Americans want to move on from Megrahi, but will BBC Scotland and the opposition partys let them?
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#397. At 00:17am on 22 Sep 2009, hamish42 wrote:
The Americans want to move on from Megrahi, but will BBC Scotland and the opposition partys let them?
Let me correct you there. Americans have moved on, even the ones who really hated the idea of compassionate release. It's over and done.
Now whether the BBC can ever catch up is another question but most Americans pay damn-all attention to BBC.
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#383. At 11:18pm on 21 Sep 2009, deanthetory wrote:
338. At 6:43pm on 21 Sep 2009, JRMacClure
Cable is a brilliant and honest man. I like and trust him.
He does have a point potentially of a greater threat to the union if the tories win.
This however assumes Cameron doesnt want to appease Scottish public opinion-
I thought his comments were refreshing in their honesty (which I think I said or implied) so I certainly wont argue the first part. However, as a political realist I seriously question the "Cameron appeasing Scottish public opinion" part.
Dean, exactly what would he get out of this as a politician? First, I'm not sure it's possible in the time it would take for a constitutional melt-down.
Beyond that his power base, even assuming you're right in your assertion that the Tories might do better than expected and get 5 or 6 MPs, is not in Scotland. Tories have no power base in Scotland. Appeasing Scottish public opinion is almost certain to offend his Home Counties power base.
*ponder* Now what does a wise politician do in that case?
Might he put a chance (and I think at best a chance) to preserve the Union over his own political benefit? Well, it's possible. Politicians, rumors to the contrary, are not always self-serving. But is it likely?
I question it. Really. I think the UK is headed straight for a constitutional crisis.
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399. At 01:16am on 22 Sep 2009, JRMacClure
I'm not so sure that Cameron has nothing to gain from further devolution.
If he grants Scottish fiscal autonomy, first up this gives him a reason to drastically cut (or abolish nearly totally) the block grant. That will prove spinable and popular with his powerbase.
What is more it opens up the realistic solution to keeping Britain together where the governing party has no mandate over one of the two kingdoms- and believe it or not Cameron is the face of committed unionism.
The whole affair is only advantageous if handled properly, its radical- a spinnable policy for English core voters (loosening the subsidy on 'the damn Scots' by making them 'stand on their own two feet')...
and we Scottish tories get more freedoms, autonomies to operate our own fiscal policies independently of the constraints of English party requrements.
Its potentially win win.
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From the Herald
http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/us-calls-a-truce-in-row-over-megrahi-release-1.921385
I love the headline "US calls a truce in row over Megrahi release". It somehow implies that we had reduced the US Government to a shivering wreck, which has sued for terms!!
The article is sensible, but where do papers get their headline writers from?
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390. At 11:43pm on 21 Sep 2009, giggletheloneranger
"After three years of SNP government can you name me one defining thing they have done to better Scotland,s lot."
Agreeing to impliment Scottish Conservative towncentre regeneration policies, and business rates cuts.
Or what about the SNP saving A&E wards? From Labour cuts (before the recession impitus to do so remember)...
I could go on.....
I don't seek to sing SNP praises but they have to be credited when due. For all their mistakes (from my view) they could still be viewed by someone as success to better Scotlands lot:
abolition of graduate endow. Personally I dont think its great but some do, and therefore it can be argued has benefited Scotland.
Why dont you try reading up on the last two years of SNP governing history rather than bugging regulars here with your 1st year modern studies questions Derek?
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#400 deanthetory
You are, of course, forgetting the elephant in the room with fiscal autonomy - oil revenues.
I'm quite sure that Cameron would be delighted to grant a form of fiscal autonomy to the land of Scotland, while continuing to take all the oil revenue to Westminster. Additionally, there needs to be a system in place whereby economic activity in Scotland is taxed in Scotland, not in London where the company HQ is, as at present.
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#400 You have a closer view of it that I do, Dean, and you could very well be right. I actually have quite a bit of respect for your opinion. But...
I see (and I know you don't like to see this) a very substantial dislike and distrust almost to the point of hatred among some of Tories in Scotland. Understand, I'm no stranger to Scotland and of the hundreds of Scots I've met--I've never actually met one who would admit to being a Tory. Just a Tory election is going to cause a lot of distress in some parts of Scotland. (Hard for a Tory to hear and I sympathize, but let's be honest here)
I see a number of other "buts" in there such as what degree of financial independence would be put forward? (I thought Calman was almost a joke with the half of income tax constraint, borrowing powers constrained annually, and excluding oil revenues). If it excluded oil and gas moneys it would at best be a slap in the face. Also, how soon would this happen(because delay might well mean it came too late)? I have a hard time seeing this as the top priority.
And a big one--how many MPs will the SNP end up with in the GE? At a certain point, that might be more important than anything else. A big win for the SNP is not out of the question and might well make anything short of independence unthinkable. Or a smaller win would leave that more up in the air.
There is another issue that has been discussed here, and I think it is an important one. At a certain point the pressure of independence will (or would) reach critical mass and reversing it would be impossible. Some think that has already happened but admittedly those are mostly nationalists. Still it is a real issue.
And I still question whether Cameron will have any real desire to do any of this--but he also might not want to be the PM who allowed the UK to break apart. So we'll have to see what happens. :-)
We're cursed to live in interesting times and that's the least you can say about all this.
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I am convinced that Scotland would not accept "fiscal autonomy" without the oil revenues. It would be such a slap that it would actually exacerbate the situation. An unsupported opinion since no one knows for sure--but it's what I think anyway. =)
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#269 JRMacClure
With regards to our ability or otherwise to gain votes, we were doing quite well for a small left party until...
A UK comedian put this very well. "Around the world, when radical parties gain some level of popular support, traditionally they come to grief because they're shot, imprisoned or exiled. Here they fall apart because of a row over a swingers' club or the leader goes on Celebrity Big Brother."
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#270 JRMacClure
Maybe we don't have yer man Rush but we do have our fair share of political madmen (and women). It's only stricter broadcasting regulations which spare us from the madness. I sometimes wonder what would happen if the Beeb was cut loose from any requirement to be impartial...right now we can see bias in various ways but it requires parsing, not like the open and startling bias one can note from other commercial sources.
A lot of people who post here include Mr Taylor in this but I think he's rather good and a heck of a lot less biased than many commentators. There was great speculation a while back as to what party card he holds, but maybe we all forgot that normal folk tend not to hold party cards ;)
If someone does indeed hold a card I think this should be declared and don't think this would detract from reading their writings. Maybe it's interesting to hear from opposite viewpoints like young Dean here. I know a couple of journos are Nats, a couple Labour, a Lib Dem and even a Trot here and there ;) However if one doesn't it would be a bit difficult to ask them to define their views before every post or news report...
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#406. At 04:51am on 22 Sep 2009, fourstrikes wrote:
#269 JRMacClure
With regards to our ability or otherwise to gain votes, we were doing quite well for a small left party until...
Yes, those things happen. It wasn't intended as an insult just something I had noticed. :)
Let's face it, Labour is imploding (if that is quite the right word) rather spectacularly as we speak. In the US, at least temporarily, the Republicans have done much the same. Ten years ago it was our Democrats who suddenly fell into a deep pit of despair.
There are usually predictions that say the party will never recover. Sometimes it does and sometimes it doesn't. It's as well to be pragmatic about these things.
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#380 mrb
Don't like premodding but the thing is this blog used to be far more disputatious (it's a word?). That's why we're premodded. It coincided, if I recall, with some dark deeds over at other Scottish newspaper forums (I wasn't a poster then, merely an interested observer.)
It's natural for the BBC to be cautious but like you I'd really prefer postmodding, which is how most of their boards work. The mods really do a great job dealing with the volume we have here, would it not be better now things have calmed for them and for us if they could only check posts where someone's hit the complaint button?
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# Giggle generally,
There are always posters pretending to be who they're not. On the Internet, they say, nobody knows you're a dog.
You're either Derek's alter ego or a cunning pretender (you seem to lack his poetic touch) but as long as you're doing it for the lulz, it's all good.
#378 JRMacClure (again)
I could write a long essay on why the SSP is nonexistent, but it wouldn't pass the mods and it would reveal which dog I have in the fight, which is bad for betting ;)Suffice it to say the Left will rise again...if there's one thing we're good at, it's that.
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#407. I do think it's interesting and worthwhile to have coverage from a number of different points-of-view. It seems to me that vetting to make sure that everyone carries a certain type of card or carries none at all is a bad idea.
If you have reporters of a number of different beliefs then you should end up with a fair balance even if there is a certain amount of underlying bias in certain stories. It's when the bias is across the board there is a problem.
Here I may disagree with you. Frankly, at times the anti-SNP bias takes no parsing at all. It's blatant and I have a feeling that is probably true for other parties that get less coverage because they're not in power.
News coverage over here is just a totally different ballgame. No single source has the clout or the license support that BBC does. For good or for ill. So when I refuse to watch Fox I don't feel as though I'm being gouged. I'd feel differently if they were being supported by my license fees, that's for sure.
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#400 dean
Damn insomnia! It's got me almost agreeing with a Tory...
If Cameron plays this correctly (by his lights) he can soothe the irate Home Counties voter while still retaining the British grip on Scottish oil revenue. He could move to a form of dev-max which lands Scotland with the burden while cutting England free of responsibilities. I know you're somewhat of a rare beast as a Scottish Tory (and you seem to be a wee bit of a Nat in your heart) but you have to admit as JRMacClure says that Scotland's no loss for a Conservative administration. You can afford to wind us up...we were never where your votes came from in the first place. Annex Dumfries and Galloway and you can ignore the rest ;)
The more I watch this political snakes and ladders game the more I think John Maclean was right. Onwards to a Scottish Soviet!
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I still think it'll take some doing to forcing supposed financial independence but hanging onto the oil down people's throats. I don't know many Scots who would agree to that. I also think losing the oil and the large possibility of further gas/oil would be a huge pill for Westminster to swallow.
That's the underlying reason (the elephant in the living room as oldnat referred to it) why I believe it will come down to a constitutional crisis. It's the one subject the two sides aren't going to agree on.
Salmond will not say nicely, "Sure, you can have our oil."
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#402Deanthetory
Please go on.
It's one thing agreeing to tory policies, it's another thing implementing
the policies, town centre regeneration package? do you get out of Stirling much? Dean are you sure you represent the student union?
Modern studies? Ha, your jibes cant hurt me, my wings are made of steel,
real socialist steel. (aka deterent)
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Striling university made up the support group for the latest Davis cup match. Poland against GB.
I raise the issue because two students supporters were dressed as super hero's,
One was a Scottish super hero and the other was an English super hero.
When A.Murray lost a point they would both have a mock fight, however when A.Murray won a point they would both embraced each other,OK, which part did you play Dean?.( )
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#412. Yep, you have to watch out for that sneaky deanthetory. =)
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414. At 07:28am on 22 Sep 2009, giggletheloneranger wrote:
#402Deanthetory
"Please go on.
It's one thing agreeing to tory policies, it's another thing implementing
the policies, town centre regeneration package? do you get out of Stirling much? Dean are you sure you represent the student union?"
Do I represent the Student Union? I never made a claim in that regard, though I have been elected for a third year to sit on the students council- so probably more representative than you?
Implementation:
Its already happening, towncentre funds have now been allocated, distribution is proceeding and towncentres up and down the contry; too long ignored by Labour; will become the centres for communities they always ought to have been.
Its happening, unlike Labours pledge to abolish the trades union legislation (whatever happened to that pledge?).
As for your socialist wings, I have no problems with your socialism- though I take the strongest Liberty to firmly disagree. I will however criticse your troll behavour.....oh and I noticed you never refuted being called Derek- revealed?
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412. At 05:28am on 22 Sep 2009, fourstrikes
404. At 02:11am on 22 Sep 2009, JRMacClure
403. At 02:08am on 22 Sep 2009, oldnat
Your combined points about the position of oil revenues is a stickler. But I don't see it as much of a problem for Scottish voters. They will be more interested in a tory governmnet devolving and respecting Scotlands right to be different.
Cameron will keep revenues anchored to Westminster, but then this is perfectly natural if we remain in the Union. This hasnt ever been a questione reality. And to date most Scots fail to mention it as their key electoral grievance, the state of stagnating scottish education, scottish recession etc all cuts in first....so I doubt its all that much a roadblock on devolution max.
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#417 Deanthetory
Morning, why would I refute a fellow socialist? (solidarity)
Dean if your going to border on the analysing stuff, please put your own house in order.
Dean you are clearly indecisive, torn in two parts over the Tories and the Independent issue.Dean a bit like a wet fart, there's no consistency there and if you continue with your indecisive mind, then believe me, you will be ripped apart in the real political world.
Dean, the closed signs are going up in most town centres and there are no signs of regeneration works in progress.
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#418. At 08:29am on 22 Sep 2009, deanthetory wrote:
412. At 05:28am on 22 Sep 2009, fourstrikes
404. At 02:11am on 22 Sep 2009, JRMacClure
403. At 02:08am on 22 Sep 2009, oldnat
Your combined points about the position of oil revenues is a stickler. But I don't see it as much of a problem for Scottish voters. They will be more interested in a tory governmnet devolving and respecting Scotlands right to be different.
Cameron will keep revenues anchored to Westminster, but then this is perfectly natural if we remain in the Union. This hasnt ever been a questione reality. And to date most Scots fail to mention it as their key electoral grievance, the state of stagnating scottish education, scottish recession etc all cuts in first....so I doubt its all that much a roadblock on devolution max.
Dean, how are ANY of those problems addressed without money?
You're saying that Westminster should turn over ALL of the problems with NONE of the ability to address them.
It is very much a roadblock. I don't see Scots or the political leaders being stupid eough to fall for that kind of trap. It would be disaster for Scotland.
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In a way I agree with Dean and his assumption that DC will reach a deal with the Scottish government. I believe this not because Scotland has the oil, which the UK government needs just now but is not imperative to their financial future, but because DC believes in the Union.
I suspect that the main reason that the UK wishes to keep hold of the Union is due to its own misguided view of its own view of how that would look to the rest of the world. If they can't control their own(?) backyard then how are they going to pretend to have a say in the Anglo-Saxon axis of control of the world? There is also another point which is rarely discussed and that is what the Queen's view on all this would be. I am sure that Dean will agree with me when I say that the Tory party and the 'Establishment' is riddled with staunch monarchists. However, as an aside, I accept that there are probably as many republicans in the Tory party as there are in the Labour party.
Then there is the House of Lords, an institution based on ancesters who were the biggest gansters of their time. Those, full time, Lords will not be happy that their estates and businesses in Scotland might come under closer scrutiny. The last thing they would want is for their long held social and financial priveledges to be taken from them and spread around for the benefit of those that actually live in the country.
However, there is a fall back plan for the Unionists if they care to take that route. I am not saying that they will but the option is always there for them. There was a coup d'tat in the UK in the 1970s when Wilson was ousted and shortly afterwards Maggie came into power when Callaghan and Foot failed to bring the 'reds under the beds' under control. Don't think for one moment that the UK government will baulk at the idea of bringing down a democratically elected government. They have already tried that with the Black ops backed by the State broadcaster and the Scottish media. Sadly, for them, this seems to have backfired on them because the real and talented opposition to the SNP government are all in Westminster snuffling around in the UK trough. This lack of talented opposition in Holyrood has allowed the SNP to wipe the floor with them. Anyway, back to their options again.
1. Keep an eye out for the Regiment of Scotland to be away on a tour, outside the UK and a couple of non Scottish regiments on 'training' manoeuvres within easy access of the major cities in Scotland.
2. Notice a couple of incidents where 'Scottish terrorists' are captured by the authorities.
3. Watch out for some top police officers being sent to other countries to 'train' the local police forces.
4. Be aware of a sudden incident of corruption/scandal of the top people in the SNP being blasted out by all media outlets. It doesn't have to be true as they can always retract that 'story' later.
5. All this will happen while the Scots have their mind on something else, like the olympics etc. coupled with mass unemployment. The last bit, I think, will be a bad move as it will only agitate the Scots even more.
6. There may even be some tragic 'accidents' that will happen to frighten some leaders of the Nationalist movement.
Now I am not saying that this will happen but the option is there if they care to do this. I think that this would be a silly route to go down as they will, eventually, be found out, which will not look good for the UK government abroad. What is more likely to happen is that DC, when he becomes PM will sit down with AS, in private, and thrash out a deal to give Scotland what it wants short of full fiscal autonomy and independence. It would be too embarrassing for DC to be known in history as the PM who lost the Union. This is why I agree with Dean that a 'solution' to the Scottish problem will be found.
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# 419 giggletheloneranger
Come out from under your mask, Derek. You really must get some more sleep and stop sleeping during the day. It's not doing your health any good. However, I'm glad to see that you got at least 6 hours last night. ;-)
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#421. I think you make some very valid points. The MI6 attacks against the SNP in the past are well-documented as I'm sure you're aware. I would hardly be surprised for more to happen; in fact, I rather expect they're happening now.
If we're aware of these dangers and the past record of acts against the SNP, I hardly think the leaders aren't. They don't have a reputation for being stupid.
I think that the Whitehall is concerned not only about losing oil, and looking like they can't control their own back yard, but also giving other powers an excuse to challenge their right to their Security Council seat which could happen.
What kind of solution can be found, I don't know. I assume there is one. But for Scotland's sake, it has to be one that gives enough money to build up a fund, to build infrastructure, to improve education, as well as invest in growth industries such as wind power.
But the world reaction if Whitehall used open force to keep Scotland within the Union would be such, I don't think that is even a possibility. The reaction would be way beyond extreme. Then there WOULD be a worldwide backlash.
But black ops is a whole different situation and if it isn't already happening, you can bet that it's likely.
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By the way, isn't it true that Alex Salmond is on very good terms with the royal family? I've certainly read that. And it has always been a possibility to retain the queen as head of state.
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#422 gedguy
Masquerade! Masquerade! your safe gedguy! just lighten up on your devolution max, it's all about the 10Bn cut to the block grant.
Now, why has this happened under an SNP admin?.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/8268014.stm
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#425. You're right giggle/derek/whoever.
The entire worldwide credit crunch is the fault of the SNP.
Tsk. Naughty SNP bringing down the world economy by their very existence.
I have insomnia but I have to at least try to get some sleep. It's almost 2am here. Night.
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Re the giggler
Can anyone take that poster seriously?
The answer, as the name suggests, speaks for itself.
The sheer lack of coherence, the flurry of disjointed smears, the desperate dependency on already discredited claims, some of them over a year old.
Statements such as "£210 million (from freezing the Council Tax) would secure the funding for the (over £500 million) Edinburgh Trams plus GARL" and "the SNP tram route will stop at the end of 'princess st'" are about as accurate as it gets.
It is hardly a secret, or buried history, that the tram project was forced through by the combined opposition parties in one of the first parliamentary votes against the SNP government, only 2 years ago - a decision that immediately blew a massive hole in the available budget.
Many such glaring realities are conveniently brushed aside in furtherance of the giggler's laughable crusade - and while even Gray is hardly in the same league of incompetence, the cack-handed modus operandi is more than familiar.
Gigglebaws, like Gray, your self-damning outbursts are only accelerating the implosion of your own 'cause' - another fact to which you remain utterly oblivious.
Like others, I look forward with amusement to your next string of self-spun drivel.
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Turn up the noise, here is a Scottish band, telling the future way back in the 1970's.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDTHZdG9C7I&feature=r