Religious pitch to US audience
It was, we were repeatedly told, a quasi-judicial decision by Kenny MacAskill.
However, the tone of the announcement sounded more quasi-religious.
Tony Blair apart, it is not all that common for politicians in these islands to use faith-based imagery or language.
It is, however, standard practice in the United States.
This pitch, then, was aimed at least in part at assuaging disquiet across the Atlantic.
Particularly given the pressures upon him, this was a good performance by Kenny MacAskill: comprehensive and, for the most part, assured.
Just think. Would you care to rule upon the fate of another human being, knowing that your every word is being weighed by political rivals, by leaders around the world and, most challenging of all, by families who have lost loved ones?
Political decisions are seldom easy. Those bordered by persistent grief are exceptionally difficult.
Under questioning, Mr MacAskill adhered to consistent lines: the correct approach for a Minister to take.
Once a decision has been taken, vacillation is unhelpful.
So no encouragement for those who say that Abdelbaset Ali Mohmed al Megrahi is innocent.
He was properly investigated, lawfully convicted and duly sentenced.
No encouragement either for conspiracy theorists.
Mr MacAskill told me and every inquiring journalist that there had been no deal with the UK Government or Libya or anyone else which prejudiced him in favour of the decision he took.
That had been motivated solely by compassion: justice tempered by mercy.
No support for prisoner transfer. The US families, he said, believed that it was contingent on the original trial arrangements that any sentence would be served in Scotland.
Mr MacAskill then criticised the UK Government for declining to produce evidence in support of their assertion that there were, nonetheless, no legal obstacles to prisoner transfer.
Not sure he was entirely wise to pick this particular political fight in the context of a statement which was based upon higher, more fundamental values.
However, the criticism, was very mild, noting merely that he found the UK Government stance "highly regrettable".
Then to the conclusion. Release on grounds of mercy.
Again, the language was deliberately faith-sounding.
Appealing to Scottish core values? That, of course, is open to humanist interpretation.
But how about citing "the faith and beliefs by which we seek to live"?
Well, you could say that too is open to a secular slant: faith in common humanity, perhaps.
However, a further sentence left no doubt whatsoever.
Mr MacAskill said that Abdelbaset al Megrahi "now faces a sentence imposed by a higher power."
Not, in truth, the everyday language of politicians here.
But then Lockerbie was, thankfully, no everyday event.
I'm 
~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~34~RS~)
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Fair comment.
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Compassionate release for Megrahi was the right decision by a focused and compassionate Kenny MacAskill, accurately reflecting the feelings of the majority of Scots.
On the wider issue of what actually happened to the Pan Am flight listen to Tam Dalyell on Radio Scotland's Newsweek Scotland programme - interview starts around 10 mins into BBC iPlayer recording.
As Dalyell suggests - the US Government, for all their posturing on the prisoner release issue, are lying to their own people.
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I'm certain none of us would like to have been in the Justice Ministers shoes today. All too easy to for some to stand back and criticise. Thankfully Brian's not one of them and presents a very fair view of what must have been one of the most nerve wracking political announcements.
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I was impressed by Mr MacAskill, and by the decision in general. I sincerely believe that if this had been in the hands of the UK Government, the man would have been left to rot in jail. Without wanting to get into partisan politics, I think it reflects well on Scotland that we have politicians capable and willing to do what they think is morally right, rather than bowing to political pressure from supposed allies.
America can't really complain - conspiracy theories aside, the fact is if they had been allowed to conduct the trial, he would have been sent to his death, which is what is effectively happening to him now anyway. The only difference is there is no appeals process for him to persistently put off his "day of reckoning". So, in essence, they have gotten what they really want, even if they don't realise it themselves.
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Absolute rubbish. Mr McCaskill wanted to make a name for himself and strung the announcement out for so long that the Libyans announced it first. When is somebody in the media going to pick up on the fact that it was the Libyan's who announced this to the world, not Scotland. McCaskill should be ashamed of the way he handled the announcement. Scotland is a complete laughing stock. He also used the opportunity to have a dig at the UK government.
The way he staggered through the whole thing was like being at a wedding listening to a nervous groom.
The USA will have its opportunity to strike back at Scotland by hammering the alleged computer hacker Gary McKinnon.
This is an amateur government who have disgraced not only Scotland but the UK as a whole. People will remember McCaskill at the next election.
Billy
Paisley.
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Can anyone clarify who would/could have taken this decision pre-devolution?
Would it have been the 'Scottish Secretary', a Minister from the Westminster based UK Government?
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# 5 - "The USA will have its opportunity to strike back at Scotland by hammering the alleged computer hacker Gary McKinnon."
The US will do that regardless of this decision. A foreigner has shown their security systems aren't all that and despite the fact that no harm was done, he'll be left to rot in jail. Even the messiah, Obamah, thinks that's right.
How the US views this decision isn't that relevant, they'll do what they do because they always think their right.
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"Appealing to Scottish core values? That, of course, is open to humanist interpretation."
Well, Brian, I'm a human and my interpretation is that compassion is a core value of Scots.
That you have even suggested it is open to "interpretation" says all we need to know about your opinion of Scots...and by implication your opinion of yourself,since you are a Scot.
The day I start to believe people liek you trying to tell me compassion is a matter of interpretation - is the day they'll nail down the lid on me.
But keep trying, because it's always amusing to see you try and fail yet again to convince us all that we Scots are any lesser fit to inhabit the Earth than anybody else.
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Comprehensive and assured?? Brian, for once I have to say, you are talking nonsense.
His delivery was absurd, and his clear accusation that terminal cancer is God's judgement was disgusting, no matter how hard he tried to backpeddle from it after, or what his international reasons for saying it were.
MacAskill has portrayed himself as a religious oaf today, and Scotland should get rid of him.
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#5 lordbuzzybuzz
"People will remember McCaskill (sic) at the next election."
Aye, maybe so.
And then they'll also remember Jack McConnel, Wendy Alexander, Henry McLeish, et al . . .
Think I'd rather have Kenny MacAskill and his lot, thanks very much.
By the way, I see the Scottish Parliament is being recalled on Monday to debate the issue (Yahoo news).
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I am pleased with the decision, but I would have prefered capital punishment years ago, although that was never the option. This decision was going to be unpopular, no matter what decision was reached. It's a decision that has divided Scotland, but I appreciate that Scotland made the decision. To this day we are not certain who, what, why and how exactly this terrorist action occured. Is holding this man going to change that? It will do nothing apart from run up a larger medical, policing bill that we will pay for.
lordbuzzybuzz:
#5.
Your comment is laughable, I believe the media had decided before Scotland and Libya that the man would be freed! In fact Brian Taylor created an earlier Blog on that exact possibility, so don't give me that nonesense. Please explain where the Scottish Government-British Government 'dig's? Apart from Camerons earlier attack on an issue which is none of his business, Westminster and Holyrood have remained neutral.
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Fair and balanced comment Brian, quite unlike some of your colleagues.
Watched the presenter on BBC News 24 try to get a negative comment re MacAskill from Jim Squire and the gentleman from Norfolk. He should try to keep his exasperation at not getting the comment he would have liked hidden.
silverfoxuk2003
A very good question. Obviously Blair thought that it would be the Home Secretary, and pre devolution it probably would be as it was a judicial decision. However maybe not as clear cut as that.
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Are you vaguely supportive of McCaskill, Brian ? I am VERY supportive, given for example the threatening obligatory call from Clinton ( who needed to, as she toadies to the king and queenmakers of washington, and we all know who they are ) etc etc. Would a labour Minister have resisted such calls ( esp from Westminster ) ? I am heartened by this " turn the other cheek " approach rather than the Muslim/Jewish " an eye for an eye " one which is the choice of the country which uses techniques such as the electric chair.
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Grade A for your post, Brian, and A+ for MacAskill's statement.
You're being incredibly fair to MacAskill by the unionist standards which prevail in the media.
MacAskill's deist references may not have been to the taste of all but were probably his best hope of assuaging some of his critics.
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I watched MacAskill's sermon with disbelief - "the lesson today is 'how to commit political suicide by ritually disembowelling your credibility'". He should have stuck to the facts as he knew them instead of indulging in a theatrical performance which astounded my American wife (who loves the usual factual Scottish reporting), "...is this the BBC or the God channel?"
His false delivery tainted the content; the whole was so grotesque that one was left wondering if any of it was true.
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I suppose it was inevitable that some commentators would think this decision was based in part on religious principles but I interpreted his use of the phrase "higher power" as being a reference to something unstoppable such as mother nature..
Did he make the right decision? Yes of course he did. If nothing else he's marked us out as a civilised nation.
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I'm sure the vast majority of the Scottish population will agree with the courageous, and morally correct, decision taken by their government. What a contrast to that lily-livered New Labour shower at Westminster.....can you imagine them standing up to the Americans' bullying demands? Of course not, they'd have caved in at the first sign of opposition. Cameron's lot would have been no different.
Far from being a "laughing stock" as an earlier poster suggested, Scotland will have enhanced its reputation throughout the world today. This whole episode has just underlined the huge cultural gap between Europeans and Americans and I don't think that we should be losing any sleep over disapproving lectures from Mrs. Clinton et al.
Well done Ken McCaskill and the SNP government. I'm proud of you!
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
An interesting thought – how would the previous Lab / Lib crowd have dealt with this? I recon the announcement would have been made in London by the UK Govt. I don’t think the Scottish Administration would have had the courage to deal with it on their own.
Well done Mr MacA - irrespective of post 5 and the nervious bridegroom jibe - it took courage to deliver that
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I watched the Justice Secretary's announcement at lunchtime, but have decided to wait a few hours to try and make a balanced judgement, and apologies if it is a bit overlong.
On a personal level I am absolutely livid. And I accept this is due to me knowing victims of the atrocity.
Legally - I accept that a decison has been made within current statue guidelines which must be followed.
Diplomacy - the US President has made his views clear. More worrying, their earlier phrase was diplomatic talk for "extremely angry". And before people start criticisng the US President, I do recall not so long ago his "Scottish roots" were being spouted by many. Now Gary McKinnon - who will receive no support from Westminster - has the prospect of facing US justice without the possiblity of diplomatic pressure from the Scottish Government. This also hsa affect on relationships with the US, a major business area.
Politically - Kenny MacAskill has committed political suicide. He now cannot hold cabinet position simpy because he will not be allowed to concentrate on his job. He will be a visible reminder of what to some is a failure.
Safe conviction - the Justice Secretary - in his statement - has confirmed Megrahi's guilt and total lack of remorse. Any conspiracy theories should now be directed to him.
Presentation - he made an absolute hash of the announcement. He should have stated the decision first, then explained how he arrived at it.
Instead, we had the unforgiveable political attack on the UK Government for almost ten minutes.
Meanwhile, the AFP and more seriously the Libyan Government made the announcement first.
What has really angered me is that in using the announcement to make such a political attack, he has now legitimised the opponents of the SNP in bringing up the subject every time we have an election or debate on justice.
He also brought christianity into the equation by talking about a "higher power". Ill-judged statement.
This is the world's stage he was on, and he blew it.
He is the political sacrifice here, as he had been put into a position he could not win. I had sympathy for him until he started attacking the UK Government as the news ticker told us that Libya had confirmed the release.
Finally on compassion:
I accept compassion has to be shown, and it can keep a nation from descending to the level of others.
But this is an exceptional case.
An entire family of four people living in Lockerbie were among the victims, two of them children.
Their bodies have never been recovered.
Megrahi's family have the priviledge of receiving his.
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It took courage to make what was a contraversial decision and was probably contrary to public opinion. The sermon that went with it however was long winded and totally unnecessary. There was no need to explain or justify to anyone why the decision was reached, it was his to make, he made it, and that should have been the end of it.
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Don't be surprised if the Lybian plane is accidentally shot down over the Med.... after all the US has a track record of unfortunate 'accidents'.
I note the plane taking Megrahi home is an Airbus A300 which apparently US warships have programmed into their radar systems as an armed supersonic fighter.
Maybe if the Captain of the USS Vincennes was tried for mass murder at Camp Zeist in front of an Iranian court I might have more confidence that real justice had been done in this case.
Megrahi may have been guilty, but the truth will never come out now about Lockerbie, nor has it ever come out about the Iranian Airbus but the linkage between the two is clear to many.
The US learned at Lockerbie that it's illegal actions have consequences, unfortunately it has spent the last 20 years forgetting that and for a generation to come their war on terror will come back to haunt them , and us, repeatedly.
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Poor old Scotland. It suits Britain to keep in with Libya, so we get Mr MacAskill to incur the opprobrium of most of the USA and large chunks of England and Scotland for that matter, in return for the illusion of brave independence.
And you fall for it time after time. Scotland the fall-guy.
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Kenny MacAskill spoke well, and did the right thing.
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Excellent decision and strong performance by Mr MacAskill. I'm no Nat but I was very impressed by this. It shows what Scotland can do when we go it alone, and shows the qualities of justice and mercy. This gave me a lot of hope for how an independent Scotland could be.
There are of course loads of dodgy deeds surrounding this case...but at least for a start it's shown Scotland doesn't jump when the US says "how high" and that we don't allow it to be legal to add torture to our punishments in this country.
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Brian
I think everyone would agree that the decision facing the Justice secretary was a difficult one. I personally would not have liked to be in his shoes.
On reflection since the first government leaks on the story about a week ago, and Magrahi dropping his appeal, however that came about, I have come down against compassion. It is easy to forget the victims, the 270 innocent people Magrahi felt no compassion for.
However the most ridiculous aspect of the announcement was the "higher authority" part. This part of the statement was just embarrassing. This was a blatant attempt to pacify our American Cousins and looked just plain ridiculous. As he couldn't blame Westminster, although he tried, he tried to pass the decision on to the next life. I really hope politicians in the UK don't start using religion to justify decisions. This is one American trait we don't want to see.
I also despise the spin and leaking that the government indulged in over this fiasco. Because in every conceivable way the handling of this is a complete fiasco. Compassion had little to do with the decision.
I assume some of the ultra nats that frequent these blogs will now realise the leaks were not part of a cunning plan, just sheer incompetence. Any lingering doubts that the SNP were above playing dirty politics have been swept away by the handling of this situation. They are little different to Nu-lab in this respect.
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Re 18 GAAberdeen
When the crown now drop their appeal against the leniency of the Sentence then all the on-going legal processes will have been completed.
I assume that the SNP bravehearts will further take on the American Bullies by holding a public enquiry to ascertain exactly what did happen at Lockerbie? Or is that subject ot decisions by a higher authority as well?
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#12 dubbieside
Now that us expats are denied access to it, I'm very grateful for your info on how BBC News 24 are covering it.
BBC World News were showing clips of Swire before the statement and commenting heavily on the different views of the families of the victims in general and in particular the split between the "let him rot" view of many in the US vs the more liberal view taken in the UK. Now, they're showing only the US side, and the "jeering" outside the jail, although they did have an interesting "talking heads" session with the Paul McBride in attack mode for the Tories and Oliver Miles, the former British ambassador to Libya (sounded very English English), who was strictly non-partisan yet tore McBride to shreds - quite entertaining.
CNNI, available on the cable here, are covering it similarly, but much lower key and as second story after the Afghan elections.
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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#22 gunnergoz
". . . but the truth will never come out now about Lockerbie, nor has it ever come out about the Iranian Airbus but the linkage between the two is clear to many."
Like I said in Brian's blog yesterday, old Tam Dalyell claims that the Iranians stated after the Airbus shoot-down by the USS Vincennes, that they would "blow 10 American airliners out of the sky"
At that point in time, I don't think anyone would have doubted that they meant it. Dalyell's point is that the US "allowed" them ONE sacrificial lamb instead of ten. That's why they pulled their military personnel and foreign diplomats off the doomed Pan-Am flight at the last minute (according to Dalyell).
Whatever the truth, I have no faith that the USA acted entirely honestly in this (and certain other) terrorist atrocities - there is always a hidden agenda, usually involving the CIA and oil dollars - and personally feel that for the Anericans to attempt to claim the moral high ground here is more than just a bit rich.
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Yes! indeed, the Scottish legal system is quite different from the Americans system, for one thing we dont have capital punishment like some states in the US OF A.
Had he been held in America, he may well of faced the death penalty.
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Kenny McAskill made a very measured and courageous and correct decision.
In an accompanying article by BBC Scotland’s Home Affairs Correspondent, Reevel Alderson he reports that ‘if el-Megrahi was involved, the Libyan government, once a sponsor of worldwide terrorism, including support for the IRA, must have been involved too.
But with Britain and America doing big business with Libya now, perhaps it is in no-one's political interests to have the truth emerge.’
The Times also reports that Prince Andrew has visited Libya 4 times in the last two years and met with Gaddaffi and his son, who has been a guest at Windsor Castle. Mandelson also met Gaddafi’s son a couple of weeks ago in Corfu. Oh, and not forgetting Blair of Arabia meeting Gaddafi in the Libyan desert in 2007.
If, what Reevel Alderson says is correct, the hypocrisy of Blair, etc., is beneath contempt.
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MacAskill spend the majority of his media expedition telling us how the UK Goverment had tied his hands, and that he never agreed with the Prisoner Transfer Agreement. Why?!!!! This wasn't what he released him under; he released him on compassionate grounds, what an absolute joke of a precedent he has set. Now no matter what anyone has done, they will get to live their last 3 months in freedom. MacCaskill has not only made a joke of himself and the Scottish Government, but also of the Scottish Judicial system and our police force.
There was no need for his political grand standing and i have lost all respect for a man who goes from gaff to gaff.
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What a load of delusional nonsense. #5 is spot on. This amateur hour government is out at the next election. Laughing lots at comment #10. Spot the SNP supporter! Who cares for your rendition of what your prefer? All I see is a bungle at PR from the SNP. Yet again. Lets face it, its what their best at. Mickey Mouse politicians all.
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#26 northhighlander
"On reflection since the first government leaks on the story about a week ago"
You keep making that allegation but have provided no evidence for it whatsoever. The original BBC "story" made no attrubtion whatsover to the source but was able in the same article to quote the "complete speculation" response of the Scottish Government.
If you wish to believe the same briefing provided both that's up to you, but it is at the least very different from the way BBC articles are usually constructed. The complete silence of NuLab on the issue until yesterday is also very unusual.
Simply repeating an allegation ad nauseam doesn't make it true.
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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#33 bigsogs
"Laughing lots at comment #10. Spot the SNP supporter! Who cares for your rendition of what your prefer?"
Captain Mainwairing - these NuLabs, they don't like it up 'em, do they?
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In earlier posts on this I suggested something like "bring it on" as I really wanted to see the Scottish Government rise to the occassion and I was especially keen to see how they would deal with such an emotive subject. I was listening and watching, quietly confident that I would see something mature and measured. I wasn't disappointed. Kenny MacAskill is a lesson to us all. I'm proud, nay, very proud to be Scottish today. Quite simply he did the correct thing. Compassion is a rare commodity in this world. The ability to cross cultural divides and send out positive messages in a divided world is rare. Moral courage is seldom experienced. Kenny MacAskill was up against it and he showed what a forward thinking, human nation Scotland is.
So, a quick few messages to some of the other posters on here.
#5 lordbuzzybuzz: You are wrong. This is probably the most mature Government on the planet.
#9 lindsayg: Again you are wrong. The nations of the world speak in different languages and understand different metaphors. Kenny used maturity in his understanding of this fact and this is reflected in his use of words.
#19 Robabody: You have highlighted a very good point. I would guess that they are releaved that they are out of Government. Tavish Scott is a very silly person indeed.
In all of this, Jim Squire, stands out as a beacon of common sense. He should be listened to; always!
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22. At 7:42pm on 20 Aug 2009, gunnergoz:
Please justify Libya supporting terrorism in the West for years.
Please justify the murder of PC Yvonne Fletcher.
Typical, one-sided attack on the USA making out that LIbya/Iran etc are innocent victims.
At least balance your comments.
17. At 7:27pm on 20 Aug 2009, michael_o wrote:
I'm sure the vast majority of the Scottish population will agree with the courageous, and morally correct, decision taken by their government.
Prove it. I'd suggest that the country is split down the middle.
And I'd like to clarify one point I made early. I'm not criticising him for making an attack on the UK government. It was his timing and he turned the whole thing into a political issue.
Next time get Salmond to do the work, he at least is competent.
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#33bigsogs
There's no point to the partizan stance on this issue.
Dr Jim Swire told BBC news 24 today that had Megrahi gone ahead with his appeal he would have proved himself innocent.
Megrahi was visted by an MSP only three weeks ago, on that visted he told the MSP he was going ahead with his new appeal with new evidence, what changed his mind?.
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#5 lordbuzzybuzz
"Absolute rubbish."
#33 bigsogs
"#5 is spot on."
Welcome, newbies. How interesting to see two first-time posters in such harmony. Pity about the level of your arguments, though.
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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I find the terminology of some comments on this thread interesting.
#5lordbuzzybuzz
"Scotland is a complete laughing stock.This is an amateur government who have disgraced not only Scotland but the UK"
#9 lindsayg
"MacAskill has portrayed himself as a religious oaf"
#33 bigsogs wrote:
"Mickey Mouse politicians all."
Most other posters (on different sides0 post rationally.
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27# Northighlander
How exactly does my post about David Camerons hypocritical mouth fit in with the crown, leniency and the SNP?
Are you quite sure your reading and replying to the correct posts here?
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Re 36 Blind_Captain
Look at the pictures of Magrahi landing in Libya, think of the victims and are you still so proud of the decision?
Re Brownedov
You seem to be losing objectivity these days. I don't think there is any doubt that the government were giving off the record briefings to the media. Especially when everything reported has actually happened.
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27 NORTHHILANDER: The Scottish Government does not have the power to hold a public inquiry.
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Again today on news 24 Dr Jim Swire told the news that evidence had emerged that people in Whitehall and Westminster kept evidence from the public for 12 years?.
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#37 Neil_Small147
I suspect that you are almost right about "the country is split down the middle" - given the normal attitude among the population as to capital punishment, I suspect that more will be against McAskill's decision than for.
Which makes it all the more impressive that he took a decision that I think was morally right.
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#42 northhighlander
I don't know how I would have felt if one of my relatives had been a victim. I hope I would have been like Jim Squire. I would hate to think I would want a token figure to carry the whole blame for what was clearly not a murder plot by individuals as opposed to states.
What I would certainly have wanted was a real inquiry as to why they had died. Care to suggest why the UK and US (who could institute one) won't do it?
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#37
I don't justify terrorism of any kind whether it be state-sponsored or not. All murder is wrong and the legal process should be applied to all, and impartially.
The following should haven be indicted and tried at the Hague for starters
Gadaffi,
Bush Snr,
Bush Jr,
Blair,
Kahmehni,
Sharon
Many others are complicit but until we get the big bad guys nothing will change.
I condemn indisciminate killing of any kind, whether Lybian supported Irish Republican sectarian murders, their loyalist equivalent, the killing of Israeli settlers by Hamas rockets, the disproprtionate reprisals on innocent civilians in Gaza, the use of unmanned drones to wipe out entire civilian families just to take out a single Taliban leader, the flying of planes into office towers.
Actions have consequences...
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Northhighlander,
You dont want to look to deep into the many strange events leading up to PAN AM flight 103, then again you might want to?.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/scotland/2000/lockerbie_trial/715658.stm
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Personally I thought Mr MacAskill’s political references intriguing rather than “embarrassing”. Lets step back a little and look at what we’ve been told over the last couple of weeks…
The story starts off with the BBC being given to understand that Mr Megrahi was about to be released. As has been pointed out, we know that the unattributed source for this was not the Scottish government, because the BBC also admitted that Scottish government sources dismissed it as speculation.
We also know that not only has Gordon Brown met Colonel Gaddaffi recently, but Lord Mandelson has also discussed Mr Megrahi’s case with the Colonel’s son.
It is extremely difficult to believe therefore that the British government has not had some involvement, but of course had no power to effect to effect Mr Megrahi’s release since he was a Scottish, not an English prisoner.
Now its possible that Mr Megrahi quite coincidentally decided of his own volition to petition for his release at just this time, but rather more likely that it was intimated to him that the moment was propitious.
The trouble is that Mr MacAskill clearly wasn’t co-operating. He met Mr Megrahi in person, why? Not as one vehement (but ignorant) critic would have it, treating him as a celebrity, or because he wanted to play at doctors, but because he was legally obliged to do so as part of the prisoner transfer process enacted by Mr Blair. The trouble then however is that Mr MacAskill declined to go down the transfer route because the British government wouldn’t provide him with the evidence he required that the transfer could proceed over any objections raised by the American government.
Is this why he was accused by other critics of “dithering” by waiting to receive and assess the evidence on which to base a decision on whether Mr Megrahi could be released on compassionate grounds, instead of following the script by immediately enacting the transfer?
Notwithstanding the howling of all those new posters on this blog I believe that in all the circumstances known to us Mr MacAskill has conducted himself correctly and his criticism of the British government’s role in the affair appears entirely justified.
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MacAskill needs to learn how to give public speeches.
His tone of voice for the gravitas of the situation was all wrong. The only thing that was missing was the "Once upon a time" at the start.
The usual digs at everyone, and the "it's no my fault, I'm just doing what I have to" were frankly embarrassing.
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#45, oldnat:
"... given the normal attitude among the population as to capital punishment, I suspect that more will be against McAskill's decision than for."
Showing your age there, if you are suggesting that a majority of SCOTS support State executions of civilians! (Of our neighbours to the South, I would believe just about anything!)
The VAST majority of those who have never known the taking of a life in our names (Thomas_Porter apart) would be utterly repulsed by such a retrograde step.
One of the greastest achievement of New Labour was to formally abolish even those notional cases which could have still attracted the death penalty as of 1997.
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Was justice done or was justice seen to be done at Camp Zeist? I think we will never know and their are probably those in high office around the world who despite their protestations otherwise are only too glad to see al Megrahi off to Libya and dead by Christmas. We should remember that al Megrahi's release is not a pardon, it does not undermine the outcome of his trial though some might seek rightly or wrongly to conclude that, al Megrahi's release is sign of compassion not forgiveness.
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"Hundreds of people waved Libyan flags as the plane landed at Tripoli airport at 1830 GMT."
The BBC seems oblivious to the fact (glaringly evident in their own website news videos) that some of the people on the tarmac in Tripoli were waving Scottish Saltires.
Any genuinely impartial news journalist worthy of the name would not have failed to point that out and yet the "impeccably impartial" BBC sees fit to mention only the fact that "people waved Libyan flags" - which anyone with eyes can see is only a partial truth - or if you prefer - a partial untruth.
It would be a shocking example of distorting reality by deliberate omission if it were not for the fact that we Scots are used to seeing similar lies of omission here on BBC North Britain and the so-called "Scottish" press every day.
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#51 Free_By_2014
I would love it if I was wrong, and younger generations of Scots have moved beyond barbarity!
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#42 northhighlander
"You seem to be losing objectivity these days."
Sorry. I'll try harder.
"I don't think there is any doubt that the government were giving off the record briefings to the media."
Quite so, but only after the BBC published the original story. Off record briefing are never individually attributed but normally contain a phrase indicating the story had some validity: Holyrood, Government, Administration or as a last resort reliable sources or some such are mentioned. When singles quotes are used, as in 'to be released', they are normally direct quotes from the source, however attributed.
The story which started this media storm was the BBC's Lockerbie bomber 'to be released' has nothing to back it up other than "the BBC understands". You are without doubt correct that that was "spin". What I find "not proven" is that it was Scottish Government spin. I don't see that they had any reason to focus the media on themselves and add time pressure to their other evaluation problems.
IMO, the UK government stood more to benefit by adding time pressure into the mix, and Mandelson's chat with Gaddafi Jr might just have been the catalyst. I'm not saying that's where the story came from, but it strikes me as less improbable than your belief that both the story and the denial arrived simultaneously at the BBC.
I may well be wrong and you correct, but your claiming it as fact without supporting evidence is OTT.
Post or reactive moderation for
all except CBeebies, please!
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#53 bighullabaloo
I agree - but where the hell did Libyans get Saltires at such short notice?
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I disagree firmly with compassionate release in regards to Mr Al-Megrahi. There is little compassion about the decision, at least for the victims: all 270 of them.
But I did hope [vainly] that the Justice Secretary would agree to prisoner transfer; infinately preferable to simply letting go a mass murderer.
And MacAskil's appeal to "higher powers" is fair enough in my book. If he holds Christian values, or beliefs in the divine who am I to mock him. The point which annoys me is that there was no reason to let him go home on compassionate grounds to live out his remaining days effectively free from internment.
He should have went home to Libya- MacAskil got that much correct, but he should have went home a prisoner. Justice demands that he spends more than just a fortnight in prison for each of the 270 victims.
And finally the second appeal should never have been dropped- but I cannot very well blame the Justice Secretary for that one now can I?
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From the previous thread, a couple of you asked me some questions- thought I's answer them here given you wont otherwise notice my reply (and think me impolite!)
144. crazyislander
"Dean, as the Hawaiians would have it, "Go slowly, come back quickly". By the way, whit are havin' fur yer tea???"
Ah, I cooked a meal for my dear father. Starters was nice highland receipy of my Grandmother - veg soup with just abou everything in it. Mushroom Risotto mains. And a drink of Indian Ice Lemon (A drink where you have a glass of ice, and soda water- and two bouls- one with sugar in it, the other lemon zest- add as you like. Lovely).
140. oldnat
Ifv this is indeed the case, I want to see the US secretary Mrs Clinton name the official(s) whom provided this 'assurance'. If it was Mr Blair then he certainly lived up to that 1997 gaffe when he refered to a future devolved parliament having little more power than an assembly. He may have set it up but he failed to respect its parliamentary sovereignty.
But as I say- Clinton and the US might have misunderstood 'assurances' (if they ever where any). Its the old Yes Minister word play I suppose.
141. oldnat
Lol, but that annabel goldie...she's a woman :) Get that handbag out leader!
---
Please remember everyone this isnt refering to this threat!
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#49 Caledonian54
Excellent post - least improbable scenario to date.
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Brian - quite honestly one of your best, fairest and well balanced blogs.
Kenny MacAskill did as well as could possibly be expected given the circumstances. He came across to me as credible and realistic, rather than some kind of over-smooth performer such as Blair or Cameron.
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I would like to add that being released on compassionate grounds should show who we are. Let's forget the different theories and assume Megrahi was the sole man behind the attacks, was compassion shown at all? No, because the man is a terrorist. I always believed that although sometimes we feel we want more, at times it's more then enough to hold your head up high and take appropiate actions to seperate yourself from those who are inferior people.
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Michael_0 post 27
You think other countries/people will see Scotland as a better country now? How the hell has this enhanced its reputation?
Maybe murderer's and terrorists will hold Scotland in a higher regard, but ordinary law abiding people are disgusted.
Scotland - the country where you can murder someone and only serve 2 weeks in prison for it, 2 weeks per victim is all Magrahi served.
Scotland - The country where jail is a better option than living in poverty!
Gadaffi's cafe - that was the nickname for Magrahi's cell. With its Arabic satelite channels, computers, 3 course meal menu's.
The McCaskill is finished. Please come back Michael_O with some evidence of somebody (not J.Squire) who believes Scotland is a better country for releasing a mass murdering terrorist back to his homeland.
Whats the bets this guy lives for more than 3 months now. I see they are partying in Tripoli now, they probably agree with you that Scotland is a better country now!
Billy
Paisley.
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The whole thing is a chaotic mess.
MacAskill is vilified, as is the US, as is the UK government.
Meanwhile Gadaffi celebrates his 40th year in power with a diplomatic coup over the West.
My opinion remains that all three Governments agreed to return him, MacAskill is the fall guy.
Now we have the scenes from Libya of lots of people waving their flags and Scottish ones, providing the media with more ammunition to attack the Scottish Government.
Added to that is MacAskill's appalling - and I mean that from a professional point of view - presentation earlier today. Wrong tone, wrong order of information, political attacks, religious references........
The man should have come out and stated "I have decided to release Megrahi for compassionate reasons. I will now explain why I have come to this decision". Short, sharp, professional, statesmanlike.
Instead, he sounded like a returning officer at an election announcing that Megrahi was duly elected to........
Whoever wrote his speech needs sacked.
He was stuck in the middle, and at least he had the courage to stand there and take questions after (unlike a certain Westminster person who hid when signing a document).
Now we have an almighty political and diplomatic row that is going to intensify via the media. The West is fighting with itself.
Libya wins - everyone else loses.
oldnat:
I've come to the conclusion that opinion is split down the middle following discussions with friends, colleagues etc.
Politics don't come into it. Ardent SNP supporters criticising, uber-unionists applauding it. People who were against his release two days ago now in favour, vice versa........
But many agreed that it was a deal done weeks ago between all the Governments. Too much business at stake.
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Flight Pan Am 103 in which 270 innocent civilians died
President Barack Obama today described the release of Lockerbie bomber Abdelbaset Ali Mohmed Al Megrahi as a "mistake" and called on the Libyan government to place him under house arrest.
Flight IR655 in which 290 innocent civilians died
In August 1988 Newsweek quoted the vice president George Bush as saying "I'll never apologize for the United States of America, ever. I don't care what the facts are."
Sorry Obama but you got it every bit as wrong as Bush Senior, and now Cameron and Clinton.
MacAskill on the other hand got it exactly right.
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lordbuzzybuzz:
#62.
To an extent Scotland has shown mercy, isn't that better then heartless monsters? I would prefer capital punishment years ago, but times have changed and new situations have developed. Terrorists do not show mercy, compassion, so what are we by allowing the man to die in prison? Better types of people? An eye for an eye leaves everyone blind? If we do not show mercy then you can expected to shown none yourself.
Besides I do not see the point of the rest of your comment. Prisons altogether are sometimes better places then the real word, your looked after.. in the real world you are on your own. If you have a problem with what you are entitled to in prison, you have to talk to the European Union.
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#57 deanthetory
"But I did hope [vainly] that the Justice Secretary would agree to prisoner transfer; infinately preferable to simply letting go a mass murderer."
I agree with you there, Dean, and so I suspect did MacAskill. Trouble is that with the US insisting on the pre-trial agreement and the UK government not having done its homework, that option was not available. Yet more "joined up" government at Westmidden I suppose. Of course, he could have announced a month's delay to give the US and UK governments time to resolve their differences.
That he did not strongly suggests the man really is near death and that MacAskill simply feared he could die before an agreement was reached.
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A very interesting and well balance article on Megrahi in the Guardian. Do not be misled by the tiltle.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2009/aug/20/megrahi-release-lockerbie-snp
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#58 deanthetory
Since it was said so often at the time, I assumed that it would be easy to give you a link to a source confirming the US Government's claim that the UK had guaranteed that anyone found guilty of the Lockerbie atrocity would not be subject to prisoner transfer outwith Scotland.
I'm surprised that I can't find one - but that might be because I'm searching the net wrongly. I'm not going to say "trust me, I'm a Nat!" but this is not something I've invented. Other posters might be able to find confirmation.
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Anyone translate latin?
Nemo me impune lacessit is a given, but need to translate the August 2009 add on.
No one attacks me with impunity, but we'll let you out if you might be away to croak it.
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#66 I can't help feel that the prisoner transfer deal is the soft option, do some porridge in the UK then after a few years we'll get you back to Libya do a little more porridge and when things settle down you'll be a free man. If Magrahi was a fit and healthy man then there is no way I'd agree to him being sent to Libya under any prisoner swap agreement, he'd serve his time in Greenock. As it is his health outwitted us all including himself.
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Some of the somewhat mixed international reaction to the Scottish Government's decision to release Megrahi on medical grounds includes a rather interesting response from a former member of the French judiciary specializing in anti-terrorism, Mr Jean-Louis Brughuiere, who maintains that France would have taken the same decision in these circumstances as has been taken by Scotland, irrespective of opposition from victims' relatives or, for example, the United States.
There is more on this rather striking observation at the end of 'A Declaration of Independence' at
http://frankly.yolasite.com/
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#56 oldnat
"where the hell did Libyans get Saltires at such short notice?"
You've given away the topic of Brian Taylor's next blog article: "SALMOND SMUGGLED SALTIRES ONTO LOCKERBIE BOMBER'S JET"
That would be funny, if it wasn't so eerily similar to some of the BBC Scotland stories we've seen this year that are just as obviously biased against the SNP and just as obviously complete and utter fiction.
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68. oldnat
No evidence? This is a rare thing for you oldnat. Usually you have lists of facts behind every utterance.
Trust me Im a nat- feel free to say it, I promise not to mock.
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Thomas Porter (Post #61)...
I second that, exactly my freind. Don't you think it strange that main stream religions position themselves in the "we are frorgiving and will forget your faults should you agree with us" position...
...when in fact they only want retribution?
Kenny MacAskill is a hero... not because he simply operated within the rule of law, but because he reflects a deep majority and predominantly unrepresented (within the Scottish media at least) position that Scots are folk of the world, absolutely inclusive and not sepratist (as the unionists would have us believe).
If anyone is anti-global and unwilling to converse with various cultures, this episode shows clearly that it is the unionist's (Labour/Lib/Conservative Englanders along with the confused Americans) who have difficulty co-operating and conversing with the rest of the world.
Peace,
Bongo. *;o)
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First Darling, then Campbell, on Newsnight, then Newsnicht, tonight stating that Scots law was a devolved matter....
Can someone please explain to me, and the many who visit these blogs, just when exactly was Scots law controlled by the British government and when was it returned to us?
Campbell the political heavyweight... uneducated, embarassing little unionist lapdog morelike ...
As to the defining moment of the SNP regime comment.... I think he's right you know....
It's time!!
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I'm not a Nat and I doubt I ever will be but, his school-debater delivery aside, I think Kenny MacAskill got it absolutely right. I could have done without the sprinkles of religious rumbly-jumblies to try to soften the blow across the pond, but the basis for his extremely difficult decision was spot on. I'd rather Scotland was being harangued by the hard-of-thinking for being compassionate, than harangued by everyone else for being vengeful.
The vindictiveness of some posters on the main Have Your Say bulletin board beggars belief.
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Ps. Every Scot should be very... very proud of Scotland tonight.
We can show the rest of the world a way to peace and a future of hope.
We are truely leaders on this globe and not just some insignificant by-standards... we do make a difference.
Keep the faith!
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Congratulations to Kenny MacAskill on the superb way he has handled this affair. How gratifying it is that there is still at least one politician who has the courage to do what he thinks is right and face down the despicable bullying tactics of the US.
Contrast the behaviour of our Justice Minister with the toadying sycophancy of Tony "The Weasel" Blair and those who have inherited his mantle of treacherous disgrace.
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#73 deanthetory
It's called being honest. I recommend it to everybody.
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Deanthetory why did the last tory government refuse to sanction an international investigation into flight 103?.
More detail/will Megrahi tell all?.
http://www.firmmagazine.com/features/562/Jim_Swire_meets_MacAskill_to_argue_compassionate.html
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Not sure why i have been moderated @75, but I'll try again...
On Newsnight and Newsnicht tonight, how many of you people saw firstly the chancellor, followed by a couple of political 'commentators' state that Scots law was a devolved matter...
Can anyone spot the deliberate mistake in this assertion and how that may be misconstrued by the general populace?
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"Every Scot should be very... very proud of Scotland tonight."
Prisoner transfer of this convicted terrorist to Libya would have been more in line with the needs of justice and the requirement for compassion to be demonstrated- that way the mass murderer would still have died a prisoner doing more than just a fortnight per victim.
I cannot celebrate "compassionate release" of this man. It simply lacks proper compassion to the victims- all 270 of them- and the needs of the survivors.
I cannot therefore agree. This was hardly MacAskils finest hour. Far from it.
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Well Messrs Campbell and Brewer gave MacAskill the third degree tonight big time. You could sense their elation and delight that they thought they had something that they could so roundly condemn the SNP Government on. This was not a fair interview. It was very repetitive because the questions were repetitive and did not shed any more light other than what we heard from MacAskill in his announcement earlier today. One thing we did learn however was that Glenn Campbell was responsible for the earlier mis-announcements and confusion in the newscasts last week.
Would you expect Cameron not to condemn MacAskill's decision, or Grey, or Scott. If it had been the opposite decision they would still still have criticised him. They have votes to win all of them, so anything they say is said with that in mind. Nothing to do with rational thought or fair mindedness about the matter in hand.
Why can the newsreader on the national news not pronounce MacAskill's name properly, calling him 'MaGaskill' repeatedly. It is not that difficult. There used to be some pride in producing accurate news reports, especially with language.
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As far as I could make out there was only one saltire. Admittedly it was a big one, but why is everyone talking in the plural?
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"SCOTTISH Labour leader Iain Gray has called on Alex Salmond to explain how the hell Libyans greeting the arrival of the Lockerbie bomber managed to get hold of Saltire flags at such short notice.
Mr Gray demanded that the First Minister confirm or deny rumours that he sneaked onto the jet disguised as a cheery baggage handler and slipped the flags under a seat - ready to be flung out the window to Libyans on the tarmac as soon as the plane landed.
Mr Gray said: "If true this is an utterly shameful way for the First Minister of Scotland to act - skulking around airports dressed in Kwik-Fit overalls with Saltires stuffed up his duke. The Scottish public deserve to know the truth - and Scottish Labour are going to deliver it!"
A Holyrood inquiry is to be held into the allegations headed by former Presiding Officer Lord Steel. The committee will convene for several weeks at a top Edinburgh hotel where they will probe the alleged breach of parliamentary standards between very nice four-course lunches paid for by the taxpayer."
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Interesting to see a rather different English take on the Megrahi issue -
http://blogs.news.sky.com/boultonandco/Post:5c6f9eb7-30ff-47df-af77-5efa027acea9
"have we also just seen a “Love Actually” moment, when an elected British [sic] official stands up to White House pressure instead of cringing and does what he thinks is right?"
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Well done Kenny MacAskill.
This is the first thing in a long time that has made me feel proud to be Scottish.
A CIVILISED society is built on compassion. To have made this difficult decision in the face of the storm of hatred and vengence shows that some Scots at least still believe in justice and fair play.
It's a sad reflection on the World we live in that the greedy powerhungry warmongers have managed to convince so many people that theirs is the right way. It is not. They are ALL the terrorists.
You have just demonstrated to me why Scotland should be independent.
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Please stop peddling this compassion nonsense. It is political expediency nothing more, nothing less. While our laws do allow for people to be released from prison on compassionate grounds, these laws did not anticipate freeing a mass murderer who killed 270 people.
If it were compassion then McAskill would have listened to the bereaved families who are now utterly distraught to find that this mass murderer has been set free. Out of compassion he would have set aside his political agenda and spared them this agony.
The religious references are poor, poor theology - God never abandons justice to self indulgently show compassion. While God showed mercy, He paid the price of our sin in full - in this way justice and compassion were both satisfied.
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No, this is not about courageously standing up to the US. It is crassly and cynically trampling the feelings of bereaved relatives into the dust.
There is no moral high ground here. If you want to show compassion, begin with the poor people who have just witnessed the murderer of their child or parent set free. This is a shameful day for Justice and a shameful day for Scotland.
I used to support devolution, but I would swap this mickey mouse parliament in Edinburgh for Westminster any day now. It may be English rule, but it's not idiot rule.
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80. derekbarker
"Deanthetory why did the last tory government refuse to sanction an international investigation into flight 103?.
...will Megrahi tell all?."
There was no need for an international investigation. This was the worst terrorist attack in Britain ever, and to suggest that the UK government was unable to handle it is insulting.
The investigation back then had all the resources it needed, both in terms of manpower and financial resources to pick over the veritable evidence trail left behind.
Although the Dumfries & Galloway Constabulory was indeed the smallest police force numerially in the whole of Scotland (also UK I believe)- the Conservative government oversaw the drafting in of additonal policepersons from across Scotland and Northern England.
The financing also was secure for any additional costs for the thourough investigation. Finance for these additional costs would come from central government- rather than the Scottish office. In this way the Government could make absolutely sure that the investigation had no shortages, and every possible financial resource was made available to them.
To suggest that there should have been an international investigation is pointless. There was no need, unless there are unsubstantiated conspiracy theories about secret tory plots to 'engineer' the bomb attack (I've heard this 'theory before but not thankfully from any persons on this blog).
International Investigation? Simply not required- our boys managed to investigate entirely thourougly. Goodness they even investigated in Malta, underwent massive forensic investigations and reconstructed the plane itself. I fail to see what more could have been done personally; by whoever was investigating.
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81. At 00:03am on 21 Aug 2009, gavinahill wrote:
"...followed by a couple of political 'commentators' state that Scots law was a devolved matter...
Can anyone spot the deliberate mistake in this assertion and how that may be misconstrued by the general populace?"
Your point being, I presume, that "Scots law" did not need to be devolved as it was never within the authority of the UK Parliament.
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#84 hamish42
"As far as I could make out there was only one saltire. Admittedly it was a big one, but why is everyone talking in the plural?
It's only a wild guess, but maybe it's because some of us aren't looking through a filter biased against the SNP and our eyes are telling us there are clearly TWO Saltires in the first of the TWO shots of flag-waving people that appear on this website?
In the school I went to two or more is PLURAL. But then, I had the benefit of a good Scottish education, the gift of a brain and the ability to use it.
Thus the use of "Saltires" with an "s" on the end of the word would be a correct spelling for what can clearly be seen is TWO Saltire flags in the BBC video.
For all we know, there could have been another 32 Saltires there, but we only have the evidence that's in front of us to go on. And even if there had been another 32 Saltires there, you can be sure the BBC wouldn't have mentioned any of them.
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89. iangmurray
" used to support devolution, but I would swap this mickey mouse parliament in Edinburgh for Westminster any day now. It may be English rule, but it's not idiot rule."
Hold on! Lets not blame devolution itself for the MacAskil judgement.
Devolution had to happen, and it is irreversable. Goodness even Edward Heath supported the establishment of a Scottish parliament/assembly when he was party leader.
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I've been lurking on these boards for a long time, and have occasionaly been tempted to comment. The Justice Minister's decision to release Mr Megrahi is the event which has finally made me do it.
I support his decision, it is correct that justice should be tempered on occasion with mercy. For those railing at the lack of compassion shown to the victims - too true! No mercy was shown to them, no compassion. Compassion is not a reciprocal relationship though - this is why it embodies some of our highest ideals; that without receiving mercy, we can give it.
Well done Mr MacAskill.
I'm more proud to be Scottish now than before the decision. I'm glad to see we are capable of coming to hard, no-win decisions independently of the pressures brought to bear by other states. I look forward the Scottish Government's response to the concerns of the other political parties in the Scottish Parliament almost as much as I look forward to hearing those other parties specific and well defined concerns.
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94. At 00:40am on 21 Aug 2009, mrbfaethedee wrote:
"Compassion is not a reciprocal relationship though - this is why it embodies some of our highest ideals; that without receiving mercy, we can give it."
Very well said, sir! I would like to think your words have shamed some of these hate-filled religionist hypocrites.
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Electric Hermit @91 - Spot on :o)
You'd think one of them might have spotted their 'deliberate' mistake
As for Glen Campbell's aseertion that is was a defining moment for the SNP, then I believe he could be right....
It's time
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At least we know what the next Tory Government of England is going to do about future compassion release cases. Cameron is clear that he has none.
If Labour eventually resume power in Scotland they will choose to take the same line. Gray has the same level of compassion as Cameron.
Unionists sing from the same song sheet.
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Just for the record, my censored #85 contained a very humourous mock news story about Iain Gray calling for an "inquiry" into a rumour that Alex Salmond smuggled Saltires onto Colonel Gaddafi's jet.
Unfortunately it was apparently a too-wickedly accurate parody of the sort of anti-SNP propaganda BBC Scotland we get force-fed here every week.
It seems the BBC has had a humour by-pass when it comes to people exposing some of their more ham-fisted techniques for distorting reality by means of a satirical news story.
As I recall, there weren't many laughs in Orwell's "1984" either.
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#90
Dean, this was no lone man act? all the evidence you are pertaining too was looked at again by the SCCRC many question over the Malta evidence and the Frankfurt evidence have indeed been reversed.
Why did Whitehall withhold evidence for 12 years?
Why wont Westminster release the "secret evidence" they hold.
Why wont the Americans ask themselves if it is possible that a miscarriage of justice has taking place?.
Have you read any of the evidence about flight 103 Dean or are you just another Guildford plotter.
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We now have scenes of joy from Libya, something the media is going to hammer MacAskill with, as is I suspect the US Government.
Libya has single-handly managed to make the West look stupid:
Scottish Government appears weak on terrorism, the US Government appears powerless to act and the UK Government sits quietly by.
Business deals and underhand politics by all three governments have given a terrorist supporting state which is not exactly a bastion of democracy a significant diplomatic victory.
People talk about 270 victims - there are far, far more. I remember the utter shock of finding out about the deaths of people I knew. God knows what their relatives felt.
Part of the healing process is the prosecution of the perpetrator. A life sentence helps heal the wounds. The man has now be released to a hero's welcome in Libya. The relatives and friends of the 270 victims have just been hammered.
Yes, some feel compassion. Some feel Megrahi is not responsible.
But Libya IS.
Those affected now have to watch the media circus as the scenes from Libya are shown again and again.
The money paid out in compensation is nothing to that country. Money does not heal either.
Some people seem determined to excuse the bombing by constant referalls to the US shooting down the Iranian airliner, itself an atrocity which as yet goes unpunished. But that does not, will not ever justify the taking of 270 lives.
MacAskill is not a hero. Neither is he a villan.
What is now of importance is Gadaffi. If we get the high profile "victory" type celebrations this will reflect badly on the Scottish Government.
Moral victory? At what price?
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Well Deanthetory, it would seem I'm not allowed to challenge your idea of justice, even if I refer to a common name like Conlon.
Dean, try and read some of the evidence pertaining to flight 103.
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Electric Hermit @95 - Thanks. The calls against compassion seem to be a recurring response, and I thought that if we're all discussing the rights and wrongs of the decision one of the key concepts merited a distinction.
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I caught the tail end of Newsnight Scotland tonight and was pretty disturbed to get a feel for nothing but the implication that the Justice Minister's decision was wrong, and that the situation had been bungled. No discussion or analysis as to whether or not either was true. Maybe I missed some more balanced content earlier in the programme, but from what I saw their minds were already made up and journalistic professionalism had clearly left the building.
Anyway, back tomorrow - now i see the reason behind some of the grumbing on the boards re: moderation time. It's even harder for a n00b!
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@82 "that way the mass murderer would still have died a prisoner doing more than just a fortnight per victim"
I'll die a happy man if I never hear this hysterical soundbite of emotive drivel again as long as I live. If Megrahi had served the full 27-year tariff in jail it would still have been just a fraction over five weeks for every victim of the bombing, and people like you would still be howling about it because five weeks isn't much for a life either. How much would be enough? Would you have him live to 300 so he could serve a figure you thought "just"?
Whatever the rights and wrongs of the decision - and personally I'm 100% behind it - Kenny McAskill deserves to be applauded today. The easy choice would have been to let Megrahi die in prison. Nobody would have raised very much of a fuss about it. But McAskill did something that is always incredibly brave - took the tough road because he believed it was the right thing to do, whatever the consequences might be.
I'm with Jim Swire on the case itself (and if everyone's going to cite him can you at least get his name right?), but even if Megrahi WAS the bomber rather than just a sacrificial patsy, then releasing him now is a striking step onto the moral high ground, proving that we're better people than the cowardly murderers who took down the plane. And if we're not fighting for decency and compassion over cowardice and murder, what the hell ARE we fighting for?
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@88 "Please stop peddling this compassion nonsense. It is political expediency nothing more, nothing less. "
What a ridiculously stupid comment. What possible political gain is the SNP making from this decision? The easy, expedient choice was to let Megrahi die in Greenock. Nobody except a handful of the usual human-rights suspects would have said very much about it, whereas now he's angered the most powerful nation on Earth. If that's your idea of political expediency the rest of us must give thanks to the heavens that you're not a politician.
McAskill's attackers can't have this both ways. If he's going against the feelings of the Scottish people then there's clearly no "political expediency" - the opposite is obviously true, he'd only be making a rod for his own back, in which case he's to be commended for bravely following his beliefs even if it costs him politically. If he's acting in line with the feelings of the Scottish people and in accordance with the law then he's just doing his job. Which is it?
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103. Rev_S_Campbell
"How much would be enough?"
What about the serving of his sentence of 27 years for a start? Either here or in Libya- I feel that justice must be upheld. Apparently you disagree with maintaining the rights of the victims to see the conviction upheld.
"But McAskill did something that is always incredibly brave"
Brave? You understand the release of a mass murderer is brave?
Remind me to never attend your sermons.
"releasing him now is a striking step onto the moral high ground,"
We could have achieved a moral highground by prisoner transfer to Libya- thereby he dies in his home country while still serving his sentence for the murder of 270 victims.
Tell me Rev. Where on earth is your moral stance for the victims?
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104. Rev_S_Campbell
"What a ridiculously stupid comment."
What a mature and grown up comment? People in glass houses...
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We are seeing a massive media manipulation being attempted on this issue but it is failing as all intelligent and civilised opinion supports McAskill's decision.
It is very easy indeed to see the anti SNP bias in some of the posts which mirrors exactly the efforts of many politicians and media outlets who are despicably trying to make cheap political capital out of a sensitve and delicat situation.
Well done Kenny McAskill and particularly well done for facing down the entirely inappropriate pressure put on him by the US. Labour would have rolled over if it still was in power in Holyrood.
What right have the Americans, who gave us Guantanamo Bay, water boarding and other tortures of prisoners, Abu Gharaib and a bloody and illegal invasion of Iraq,to lecture us on Lockerbie.
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#100 Neil_Small147
"Scottish Government appears weak on terrorism"
Altenatively, one man's "weak on terrorism" is another man's "strong on compassion".
"Some feel Megrahi is not responsible. But Libya IS."
So, what do you suggest we do? Jail the whole of Libya?
"If we get the high profile 'victory' type celebrations this will reflect badly on the Scottish Government."
Some idiotic people in Libya may take part in "victory type celebrations" - and some idiotic people in Scotland may try to convince us that it "reflects badly on the Scottish Government."
"Those affected now have to watch the media circus as the scenes from Libya are shown again and again."
Alternatively, those affected don't have to watch anything at all.
As long as people are determined to try to shove their diseased opinions down other people's throats I suppose we'll have to put up with the likes of your drivel.
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108. bighullabaloo
"Alternatively, those affected don't have to watch anything at all."
Real Christian compassion right there eh? If the victims families are affected by Megrahi's release- and the celebrations shown all over the internet/tv then your comapssionate responce is "just dont watch it".
Surely you can see why we could have had compassion in our verdict, yet still maintain the needs of justice to the victims by prisoner transfer of the mass murderer to Libya?
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@37 "Prove it. I'd suggest that the country is split down the middle. "
It's hardly conclusive, but for want of any better evidence there's an online poll in The Scotsman on this page (and probably others):
http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/lockerbie/Clive-Fairweather-Bomber-lucky-not.5575543.jp
At the time of writing it shows 67% of Scotsman readers (a demographic likely to be, if anything, somewhat biased against the SNP) in favour of Megrahi's release and 33% against.
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@105 "What about the serving of his sentence of 27 years for a start? Either here or in Libya- I feel that justice must be upheld. Apparently you disagree with maintaining the rights of the victims to see the conviction upheld."
The conviction HAS been upheld. Haven't you been paying any attention at all? The appeal was dropped and Megrahi is still legally a mass murderer.
"Brave? You understand the release of a mass murderer is brave? "
Yes, of course it is. Do you need help finding a dictionary? Doing anything controversial when you have a much easier option available to you is obviously brave. You can disagree with the decision, but disputing its bravery is imbecilic.
"We could have achieved a moral highground by prisoner transfer to Libya"
Not without breaking the clear commitment given at sentencing that he would serve his sentence in Scotland, which would have been controversial AND despicable, the worst of both worlds. And he has served his sentence. Early release on compassionate grounds is entirely in keeping with Scots law under which he was sentenced.
You do your position no favours with these childish and petulant arguments. At least you've stopped saying "two weeks for each victim", though, for which all intelligent adults can give thanks.
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#109 deanthetory
"Real Christian compassion right there eh?"
First of all, I'm not Christian, but if I was I'd find your sarcastic tone in characterising compassion as exclusively "Christian" extremely offensive. So, not quite a paragon of virtue yourself, then, eh?
Secondly, I didn't use the words: "just don't watch it" in the cold, uncaring way you're trying to suggest. Just because I've rejected Neil Small's untrue claim that relatives of those who died in the crash are somehow forced to watch anything "again and again", doesn't mean that I don't feel compassion for their loss.
I lived in Lockerbie for 6 years. I saw the pain in their faces. I spoke every other week to one American couple or another as they trudged past my front door to visit the scene of the crash - which was visible 100 yards from my back window - lost in deep personal sorrow.
So don't you dare try to tell me I don't feel compassion for their loss.
I feel compassion for their loss and I feel compassion for a man who's dying of prostate cancer. What I don't feel compassion for is idiots on here trying to score cheap political points off it.
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Megrahi has gone and the U.S. is angry. This is a reasonable political outcome for Scotland. The U.S. have played unforgiving hardball with a Scot in their treatment of Gary McKinnon. They have shown no compassion for a man with clear need of some. They have exercised their power through an unfair extradition agreement which the U.K. is ashamed to uphold. Scotland was right to make a political stand in this instance, if a political stand it was. I, for one, would like to think so, whatever the reality...
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First let me mention that I'm a resident and citizen of the US. Now as far as I'm concerned that means I have no right to comment or judge the internal actions of your government, but since, as usual, my own government has chosen to embarrass me by acting like a bully and stepping into matters that are none of our business, I'm going to say my peace.
I have only admiration for Kenny MacAskill and for the devolved Scottish government in standing up to the international bullying they have received. I hope that the Scottish people have the good sense to stand with and behind them because this kind of courage isn't shown by a lot of governments--CERTAINLY not by the government of the UK which regularly caves in to US bullying. In fact, bullying is rarely even necessary. They just do whatever our government hints they might want, as far as I can tell.
I'm heartily ashamed of the continued behavior of my own government. That I expected better of the current administration only shows my own naivete.
Well done to the Scots!
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#89 - "I used to support devolution, but I would swap this mickey mouse parliament in Edinburgh for Westminster any day now. It may be English rule, but it's not idiot rule."
Yet Jack Straw releases Ronnie Biggs, a man who has never shown any remorse for his crimes either, on compassionate grounds. Or do you believe Westminster can act for purely compassionate reasons but Holyrood can't?
If it is idiot rule, you're vote probably helped make it that way.
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#105 - "What about the serving of his sentence of 27 years for a start? Either here or in Libya- I feel that justice must be upheld. Apparently you disagree with maintaining the rights of the victims to see the conviction upheld."
So two weeks per victim isn't long enough, but 5 weeks is? Is that the tory view? 5 weeks is a sufficient sentence for murder? I'm sure Call-me-Dave will be campaigning with that as part of his manifesto at the next GE.
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Dean #105,
Don't blame MacAskill for not doing what he couldn't. Prisoner transfer was never realistically an option because it can't be done if there are outstanding legal proceedings. al Megrahi dropped his appeal but there was still the Crown case for a tougher sentence for him, which wasn't dropped. Also, it's politically iffy to say the least.
What you're also not getting is that al Megrahi's condition, by all accounts, has progressed past the point where he can be treated in Greenock prison. So it's not a case of "keeping him inside"...no matter where he was he wouldn't be in jail, but in hospital. The question is whether it would be a Scottish or Libyan hospital, not a prison.
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I think that this was declaration of independence. An independent Scotland, I think we can now take it, will not automatically support the US line in international politics. In this repect there is clear water between it and the UK government. I'm a peely wally unionist, but I welcome that. The US, surprisingly even Obama himself, fell into the trap of over-reacting and that I suspect will suit the SNP well in future campaigning.
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A difficult, demanding decision, and in balance a correct decision. Unfortunately the usual folk seek to make political capital from it.
Megrha is dying, there is nothing to be gained from keeping him in jail, other then appeasing those who confuse justice with vengeance. I find it reassuring that we can show compassion to even someone like Megrahi.
I watched the scenes as Megrahi arrived in Tripoli, there were less than a hundred folk, the scenes as he was driven through Tripoli reflected that there are currently celebrations for 40 years since Gaddafi came to power, the BBC reporter who stood with his back to a youth celebration with laser lights deliberately gave the impression that these were somehow connected to Megrahi.
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111. Rev_S_Campbell
"The conviction HAS been upheld. Haven't you been paying any attention at all? The appeal was dropped and Megrahi is still legally a mass murderer."
My posting made the point that this mass murderer ought to have spent his last days either in a Scottish or Libyan jail. His conviction has not de facto been upheld at all- he will now in Libya start protesting his innocence again as an effectively free man.
So havent you been paying attention at all? I you had you might have understood the meaning of the word brave- but dont worry here is the real meaning (try looking it up before inflating words to suit your ends- very NewSpeak of you):
–adjective 1. possessing or exhibiting courage or courageous endurance.
2. making a fine appearance.
3. Archaic. excellent; fine; admirable
Has MacAskils release of a mass murderer been a fine experience? Nope- all that was missing from his ramble was "once upon a time".
Excellant, admirable or fine? Absolutely not. Nothing admirable about releasing the worst terrorist in UK history to de facto freedom from his conviction.
"possessing or exhibiting courage or courageous endurance"
What about this one Rev? You think it was exhibiting courage to release a mass murderer rather than prisoner transfer because the US didnt like prisoner transfer? If he had shown any bravery based on dictionary definitions he might have said to the US "he will serve his sentence, in Libya- whether you Mrs Clinton like it or not" because releasing him to effective freedom is NOT courage- it is weak- taking the easier of options.
So drop the silly "You can disagree with the decision, but disputing its bravery is imbecilic" Perhaps you could try reading a dictionary before throwing around childish insults? Grow up. Read. Think.
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bigh:
I personally know four people who died in Lockerbie. I was also involved in the clear up.
I am not making political point scoring. Had Labour released him I would have made the same comments.
I'm not suggesting we jail the whole of Libya, but the country is responsible. This is a country that is an obvious bastion of democracy. This is the country responsible for the death of Yvonne Fletcher.
A lot of people her are praising the "brave stance" of MacAskill and describing him as a "hero".
#118 bakehart goes as far to make this a declaration of independence.
Others describe the US as the great evil. Obama the nasty leader of the corrupt US, yet when he became president people were falling over themselves to tell us all that he is really a Scot.
What do people want here? Turn Scotland into Venezula?
This has been turned into a political circus, by supporters of ALL parties.
People are being forced to relive their sorrow because it is everywhere. What are they supposed to do, hide in a cupboard for a few weeks?
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112. bighullabaloo
"So don't you dare try to tell me I don't feel compassion for their loss"
Your words where "Just dont watch it". Your words. They were cold. They where complacent.
Of course these poor souls will be subjected to this nightmare scenes of this mass murderer returning to Libya a free man! There will be youtubes, documentaries, books, all kinds of journalistic articles!
Why? Because everyone will treat this decison as the defining moment of the SNP government (rightly or wrongly). For you to suggest that over the next 10 years/20 years while this needless nightmare unfolds for them to "just dont watch it" is cold.
I am not saying you dont feel for these people. But you certainly arent doing a good job at showing it when you callously tell the victims families "just dont watch it".
Where on earth is you heart?!
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116. ForteanJo
"So two weeks per victim isn't long enough, but 5 weeks is? Is that the tory view? 5 weeks is a sufficient sentence for murder? I'm sure Call-me-Dave will be campaigning with that as part of his manifesto at the next GE."
Your attitude towards the notion of "do the crime do the time" sickens me. It is why Goldie is right to say that under Nat-Gov Scotland has become soft touch on criminals. Goodness nationalists even now seek to release mass murderers! This is simply sick. Mo two ways about it.
Call-me-Dave would clearly have had more due dilligence for the needs of justice, the victims families to be upheld than Mr MacAskils weak decison to let the terrorist of the 20th C go free.
My view? Goldies view? DC's view? The majority of Scots general attitude?:
"DO THE CRIME DO THE TIME"
Its honestly simple enough concept for rational people (rather than wild Nat-Gov supporting fanatics).
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88. iangmurray wrote
- God never abandons justice to self indulgently show compassion. While God showed mercy, He paid the price of our sin in full - in this way justice and compassion were both satisfied.
How do you know that?
Is that the new testament god or the old testament god - anyway I didn't view "a higher authority" as god but as a living being's fate?
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JR MacClure , thank you!
I am sure that many in the States feel as you but don't have the voices to shout.
I am tired of bully boy tactics by Westminster and US governments.
Planks and moats.
I am equally tired of our media.
And I'm even tired of some of the foolish but voluble cretins who inhabit this board.
Some are too fond of their own words, set down prior to thought or indeed, mulled over for so long with apologies for slow response which no-one wanted in the first place.
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Mr Megrahi's family could have visited him in Scotland while he was dying and been with him at his end. Considering what he was convicted of doing, his prison sentence was compassionate enough.
Sadly, the world is filled with unrepentent murderers walking free. George Bush is one of them. Ghadaffi, who probably ordered the PanAm bombing, is another. Then there are the secterian killers from both sides in Northern Ireland who walked free after the Good Friday accord, or the ex-Nazi rocket scientists who built Nasa's moon program. The list is endless.
I had hoped Scotland would stand up for justice instead of behaving like all the rest.
As for Mr MacAskill trying to blame the UK in his speech, the partisan politics game is too shabby to sully the memory of Lockerbie's victims with.
I don't think this was a nationalist vs. unionist issue. It was a moral one and I think the decision to release Mr Megrahi was wrong and has hurt Scotland.
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I believe that yesterday Kenny MacAskil was faced with the hardest decision any politician can face. That he has faced this challenge with dignity says a lot about the man. The response from Cameron, Gray and Scott just sums up what is so wrong about this country. If it had been them they would have taken a decision based on their need to think everything american.
I totally appreciate the anger and frustration felt by some people, I totally don't accept any lesson on law or compassion from American politicians who, it would appear, ignore it. They have Bay of Prisoners and illegal rendition ( through Prestwick ). I feel for the American relatives but we cannot take decisions based on fear of American politicians.
I am split as to if I feel he should have been released or not, as many are, and the pictures from Lybia this morning were distasteful to say the least. But I am proud that I am Scottish, I am proud our Government make a decision using all the facts and held their heads up high. Maybe Gray and Scott need to stand up for Scotland for once and stop talking us down.
Time will tell if this is right or wrong, but today our Government stood up and showed us that you know what, we can take the tough decisions, we can put our heads above the parapet internationally irrespective of what might come our way from AMERIKA. Maybe Gray and Scott need to seriously look at themselves this morning and how they actually, with their comments, make us small.
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@120 I'm afraid that however much you hate Kenny McAskill your hatred alone can't change the meaning of words. Taking a decision which results in this level of opprobrium being unleashed upon you, when you could have easily taken a far easier one, is absolutely obviously the definition of courageous.
Similarly, you can't change the meaning of "upheld" just because you're an illiterate buffoon. Conviction means Megrahi was held to be guilty of the bombing. The situation now is that he is still held to be guilty of the bombing, but has been released anyway out of pity. Absolutely NOTHING has changed with regard to the conviction. It has, in other words, been upheld. If it had not, Kenny McAskill would have been saying "We've decided that he's innocent and let him go", not "His crime was despicable but we have shown him the compassion he did not show his victims".
@ 123 "the victims families to be upheld"
I'll take the liberty of converting that into English and assuming you mean what you seem to. It's hilarious how you and all the other hang'em-and-flog'em mob use this phrase, pretending for all you're worth that all the victims' families are of one mind. In fact, a great many of them would go a lot further than Kenny McAskill, and would actually pardon Megrahi, because they don't think he's guilty at all.
You can bluster and shout and repeat yourself and ignore the difficult questions all you want. But the facts remain the same - Megrahi's conviction has been upheld, his sentence has been served, and Kenny McAskill has taken a brave decision to free him to die in his own country. The alternatives were easier, but they were barbaric and/or illegal. I thank God that the decision lay with him and not with a Neanderthal, hate-crazed, illiterate lunatic with no grasp of law, such as yourself.
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#123 Dean again,
I'm a long way from a Nat supporting fanatic ;) but Kenny MacAskill made the right decision here. Think on!
IIRC, over the past decade there have been 30 appeals for compassionate release of which 23 were granted. Compassionate release doesn't depend on what your crime was. It depends on two things...how sick you are and whether you present a danger to the public. al Megrahi is clearly a very sick man (terminal cancer is never a pretty death) and just as clearly no danger to the public.
Even if we lay that aside, he couldn't possibly have "done the time". There were 270 people killed, is he supposed to live to 2700? As the other poster wisely pointed out, at the best he's got five weeks for each death. I know hang em and flog em types wish they could punish people eternally, but it can't be done.
As for the victims' families, why does everyone presume to speak for them? They can speak for themselves and their opinions are not a monolithic bloc. Some believe al Megrahi to be innocent. Some believe he should be freed as an act of Christian charity to a dying man. Not all think he should spend his last days in prison.
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@123 "My view? Goldies view? DC's view? The majority of Scots general attitude?"
Ah, the classic voice of the bigot - "Everyone agrees with me!"
In fact they don't. For a start, by definition Annabel Goldie's view is at odds with the majority of Scots' general attitude on most things, or she'd be First Minister. The Tories are supported by just 17% or so of the Scottish electorate.
Secondly, indicators of the opinion of "the majority of Scots" on this matter are thin on the ground. The only poll I'm aware of is the Scotsman one, which continues to show a 2:1 majority in favour of the release, despite a large influx of angry Americans to the website. If you have others which show different results, please direct us to them. Otherwise, please stop trying to tar the civilised, decent and compassionate people of Scotland with your vicious brush of vengeful stupidity.
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It is extraordinary to see the various attempts at partisan political spin which people are trying to attach to this issue. It appears to me that this issue splits along an entirely different axis: between those who think that sending prisoners home to die is right (this has been part of Scots law since 1993), and those who think that such an action is " insulting to the victims" or "being soft on terrorism". (That first point I can understand, if not accepting it outright, but the second one is simply barking.)
This decision would have been made by a Scottish minister regardless of devolution (Scots law is not devolved, remember..?) And there is no doubt that the Labour party wanted Megrahi returned to Libya (that's why they signed the prisoner transfer agreement, remember...?) So where is the partisan divide?
Those who present the atrocious argument of "that is eleven-and-a-half days in jail per victim" fail to explain how much of an improvement to justice it would be by keeping Megrahi in jail until he dies and therefore increasing it to eleven and three-quarter days per victim. Eh? I can just about understand the ill-educated spouting this line, but to see Newsnight's Gavin Essler taking it repeatedly with Kenny MacAskill was shocking, and an utter embarrasment for the BBC by anyone's measure. Essler also seemed to be genuinely outraged that an SNP politician could be int he position to make such a decision. (I can imagine that Gavin Essler may be a friend of Kirsty Wark....)
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130. Rev_S_Campbell
First: you still havent provided a link to any dictionary term which supports your definition of 'brave'.
Secondly: if you believe it makes me a "bigot" to want Megrahi to spend hi sentence in prison either here or in Libya then this tells more about you. Grow up, apparently you cant resist throwing around childish insults. Pathetic.
Third: "Otherwise, please stop trying to tar the civilised, decent and compassionate people of Scotland with your vicious brush of vengeful stupidity"
Vengeful stupidity to seek to have the mass murderer spend his sentence in jail? Let us hope you and your 'justice' never gets its hands on Bin laden then otherwise you and your 'charity' and 'compassion' might release him. Discraceful that you seek to be taken seriously when you throw around childish insults like "bigot" and "idiot" at anyone who disagrees with you.
Grow up Rev.
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@132 "First: you still havent provided a link to any dictionary term which supports your definition of 'brave'."
Er, you did that yourself. "Possessing or exhibiting courage".
"Vengeful stupidity to seek to have the mass murderer spend his sentence in jail?"
He HAS served his sentence in jail. I've explained this to you patiently a number of times now. ANY prisoner deemed to have less than three months to live is eligible for compassionate release. That is a fact of every single sentence passed by a Scottish court, and therefore the exercising of that option does not negate or change the sentence in any way. It is absolutely abnormal that any prisoner in a Scottish prison dies in jail, regardless of crime or sentence. This is a fact. You can bellow and rage against it all you like, but it will remain a fact all the same.
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I'm heartened by the level of comment from those who can string a sentence together (Yes I know... Im difficult to follow because I ramble).
Having had a quick shuftie at US 'news' site comments Im stunned how many Scots (though that may mean the same as 'I am Irish' in the US - i.e. 4th generation US) are voicing 'shame'.
How the man is greeted is not under our control. How others behave is not under our control. We can but make a polite request and expect it to be mostly ignored.
How we behave is under our control. How we hunt down the guilty is. How/Whether we show compassion is. Just because Fox News screams for death to the infidel does not mean we have to agree, any more than with Mr Bin Laden.
An early poster noted that the US has a short memory about USS Vincennes' shooting down of an airliner. The unfortunate 'colateral' damage in other areas of conflict rarely rates a mention. Don't get me wrong - I'm no pacifist; sometimes eggs get broken when cooking - but it's whether you go into these things with your eyes open or shut that reduces the damage caused (in more ways than one) to a minimum.
But even all of the 'Chicken-Egg hatred/terrorism/violence, how did this come about? Did he do it? What about the prisoner transfer under-the-table stuff with the US UK and Libya?' debate can't remove a simple point
I don't like it when Mrs Clinton makes public 'influential' comments. Actually the ones who look silliest in this are the Americans... having raised their eyebrows in expectation of obedience they are now snorting indignantly about justice systems. Justice systems? The US?!?! NHS... ok, it's pretty dire, but the US?!?!
The decision to make here was on one person's head. He made that decision and he clearly, definitely, personally, publicly took it on his head. Bearing in mind that islamic fundamentists are not the only ones who murder due to 'slights' I reckon that was done in full knowledge that it may even compromise his personal safety.
He did NOT refer to 'God' 'Christianity' 'Allah' 'Buddah' 'Devolution' 'Independence'. He did his bomework. He followed procedure. I bet he documented every single conversation that could be documented and that there were quite a few he couldn't.
Mr MacAskill has shown himself to be very careful yet capable of doing what he thought was right, as opposed to what would be 'sustainably unpopular' or easy (prisoner transfer 'He has not been released, they told me to and I couldn't say no... just transferred...can we drill now?' or denial 'Go Clinton! Go Fox! I'm your friend! Can I have a photo opportunity?'). I'd have him any time over someone who could be swayed by a glance by Mrs Clinton, the thought of pallying up with Mr Obama or who would wring their hands while complying with 'rendition'.
Will US consumption of Scotch go down? Who knows.
Said the farmer to the pig
'You can tell the quality of a man
by the company he chooses',
and with that
the pig rose up
and walked away.
The only thing that would really make me angry would be if I found out that any deal had been knowingly struck by Mr MacAskill that was business driven. That would be taking the junction between law and Realpolitik too far. At that point the company we choose would indeed be just as questionable, perhaps more so, than were we to lie down for the US. However those attempting such deals would appear to reside elsewhere. That there may be business consequences - pros and cons - is a different matter, it is an unavoidable follow-on which must be considered by any responsible politician.
I reckon Mr Cameron would be an excellent Prime Minister of an independent England; he appears to truly reflect their wishes. The day he sniffs more closely than he is doing towards the Scottish legal system, and his tendency is clearly to do so, I may well become a pro-independence activist. His morals are not mine, his sociology is not mine, his view of the world and our relative size, importance and place in it are not mine.
(Was I alone by the way in noticing the grammatical change by our intelligence service chappie on 'torture'... change from 'were you complicit TO torture' 'we were not complicit IN torture'). Cute.
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"Er, you did that yourself. "Possessing or exhibiting courage".
But you need to exhibit courage. There was no courage in releasing this man in what was a clearly choreographed display. So try providing a defintion which supports your statement that MacAskil was brave because "McAskill did something that is always incredibly brave - took the tough road"- but it wasnt the tough road at all- the tough road would have been prisoner transfer. Please provide evidence for your dictionary definition- try providing a link; otherwise your grasp of English leaves much to be desired.
"He HAS served his sentence in jail."
No he has spent eight years in jail of a 27 year sentence. If he dies before the expiry of those 27 years then so bit it. That is called doing the time if you do the crime.
"It is absolutely abnormal that any prisoner in a Scottish prison dies in jail,"
Honestly? You dont think that prisoners ought to die in prision should the expire before the end of their sentence? Following your logic- what on earth is the point in sentences for criminal misdemenour at all?
Some people die in jail- it isnt nice, or pleasant but it is vital for the stength of sentencing. Try again. More emotional nonsense from yourself Rev.
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I'm sorry, but I can't accept the decision to release this man.
270 innocent people died, and he was convicted at trial of being responsible. No evidence has yet been produced in a court of law that has sufficient legal weight to overturn that verdict.
Clearly an expedient political deal has been done to release him, which Megrahi must have been aware of - otherwise he would not have abandoned his appeal. And why was he allowed by the Scottish prison authorities to make his self-justifying statement protesting his innocence? Surely that merely rubbed salt into the wound.
Frankly I don't think anyone in government - UK, US or Scottish - comes out of this very well. Mr MacAskill's rambling statement, frankly, seems to set a precedent. Does this mean every convicted murderer will be allowed to be released if they have a terminal illness, to await higher justice?
How the poor families must have felt, watching the pictures of Megrahi's return to Tripoli, I cannot imagine.
I'm sorry for going on at length, but I feel this is a step too far.
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Disgusted by McAskill's implication that Megrahi's terminal cancer was in someway a judegement from a higher power...I am a 34 year old women with a 3 year old son who is terminally ill with cancer..am I also being punished? The Justice Secretary should apologise to every terminally ill or cancer sufferere in this nation for his ill advised and hurtful comments!!!
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dean
You used to appear as quite a nice chap. What's gone wrong?
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120. At 08:38am on 21 Aug 2009, deanthetory wrote:
"My posting made the point that this mass murderer ought to have spent his last days either in a Scottish or Libyan jail. His conviction has not de facto been upheld at all..."
You are to be congratulated on your ability to find ways of being comprehensively wrong.
Prisoner transfer was not an option because there were still active proceedings in the case. But even supposing al-Megrahi had been transferred to a Libyan prison he would have spent no more time there than in Greenock. Because he would have been in hospital. If he qualified for compassionate release under Scottish law, he surely would have qualified for compassionate release in Libya.
Not only has al-Megrahi's conviction been upheld, it hasn't even been subject to any further challenge. This was not an appeal against either conviction or sentence. It was release on compassionate grounds and, as such, says nothing whatever about the original conviction.
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@135 "Honestly? You dont think that prisoners ought to die in prision should the expire before the end of their sentence?"
What I think has nothing to do with it. What's at issue here is the law of the land, and the law provides for compassionate release in order that prisoners should not die in jail, regardless of their crime. Kindly supply us with some names of prisoners who have been allowed to die in Scottish jails of terminal illness, and the circumstances surrounding the failure to grant them compassionate release. I'll wait.
I'm afraid that your first paragraph makes so little sense in English that I'm unable to understand it fully. But prisoner transfer wasn't "the tough road", prisoner transfer was the totally illegal road. Are you really suggesting that the Justice Secretary should have broken the law?
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Sorry.
Prisoner transfer would've been the easy way. First pander to the UK Gov, then to the US, then back to the UK.
Get the CPS to drop the appeal (he's dying anyway - waste of time and resources); with the backup of Westminster, no problem.
Arrange the PTA.
Then somewhat cynically point out that the SNP Gov consistently and in line with apparent prior understandings of the US understood that sentence would be in Scotland objected to any such transfer but HEY - not our fault... bad men in pro-Unionist Westminster.
Then send him to Libya.
But that really would be wishy washy bendy over we're so wee and weak.
A small country can still be decisive in its own actions.
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After the furore dies down I think this decision will make Scotland a better society, not worse. A safer place for our families, not less. Gain us more international respect, not less.
This one person is a clear 'bouc emissaire'. As far as justice is concerned he has been pushished more than anyone else in this affair. There are many reasonable doubts as to his level of guilt.
The gates are wide open for the UK political body to make a full public enquiry to re-examine all available evidence. The tragedy is that this is never going to happen.
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@137 "Disgusted by McAskill's implication..."
Implications are in the eye of the beholder. McAskill simply observed that Megrahi is in the hands of fate.
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135. At 10:02am on 21 Aug 2009, deanthetory wrote:
"There was no courage in releasing this man..."
Whatever anybody's attitude to the release of al-Megrahi on compassionate grounds may be, the only ones questioning the bravery of MacAskill's decision are those whose sole interest is petty political point-scoring.
Or those who lack the intellectual capacity to recognise political courage when it is staring them in the face.
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I'm proud that MacAskill chose compassion over vengeance. Vengeance is bad for the soul.
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138. oldnat:
dean
You used to appear as quite a nice chap. What's gone wrong?"
I had relatives who died in this incident- I therefore shall never accept his release so long as I draw breath. This was a horrific decision.
The likes of Rev Campbell can twist their facts all they like about dictionary definitions of 'brave' (which he has still to come up with).
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I do think the release was handled correctly at this end, there seems to have been a complete lack of preparation for the reception at the other end. Surely a UK chartered jet could have landed at a Lybian airbase and quietly delivered the convicted bomber to his family. UK government pressure on folks in Tripoli would have helped tone things down. Perhaps there should have been more co-ordination between Holyrood and Westminster? Also why recall the scots parliament sure the analogy of a stable door, a horse and a bolt applies here?
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It's interesting that the Westminster Government is keeping schtum about the decision. There is also an obviously complete disconnect between Labour in Scotland and Labour in London.
The recall of the Scottish Parliament should be great viewing. Expect some low brow political statements from Labour, Conservative and Lib Dem MSPs. This spectacle will be the embarrassing ingredient in the whole story as we witness pathetic opportunism from the opposition.
What will also be evident, and is already becoming obvious, is the drifting of viewpoints between Labour in Scotland and their masters in London. No bad thing, in my view.
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When is the media going to pick up and report the fact that MacAskill faffed about so much during the announcement, that it was infact the Libyan's who announced Megrahi's release to the world?
MacAskill is a joke. He has embarrassed Scotland.
His decision is going to have much wider implications on Scotland in the future. It will be a brave American company who announces new investment in our country any time soon.
MacAskill can only hope that Megrahi dies within three months.
Megrahi is now a hero in Libya, at Scotlands expense!
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@146 "I had relatives who died in this incident- I therefore shall never accept his release so long as I draw breath."
Ah. So in common with the American families, what you're saying is that you don't care who spends their life in jail for the crime, as long as SOMEONE does. A Scottish court in 2007 found prima facie evidence that Megrahi had suffered a miscarriage of justice, and therefore granted him leave to appeal for a second time. You, however, are blinded to this evidence by your grief and basic human desire for personal vengeance. (Something you've attempted to conceal from us until now, which is somewhat dishonest.)
That's quite understandable, but it doesn't also excuse your inability to understand either the laws of Scotland or basic English grammar. So far as the law is concerned, Megrahi's conviction has been upheld and his sentence served. He has been treated the same as any other prisoner in a Scottish jail in that regard. So far as morals are concerned, the Scottish justice system has accepted that his conviction was suspect. You're left standing on pretty much no ground at all.
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@149 "When is the media going to pick up and report the fact that MacAskill faffed about so much during the announcement, that it was infact the Libyan's who announced Megrahi's release to the world?"
Presumably at the point when anyone cares about it in the slightest, other than idiots trying to score petty political points. What does it matter to anyone anywhere? How many people watch both Scottish and Libyan news broadcasts anyway?
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#146 deanthetory
Sorry to hear about your relatives (even though it occurred before you were born). However, that is exactly why justice systems don't allow victims' families to decide the fate of accused/prisoners (Sharia law is, I think, an exception).
Why don't you have a burning desire to find out the truth of what happened to them? Surely, you don't imagine that Megrahi was the sole perpetrator.
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#149 lordbuzzybuzz
Well, one reason probably is that the Libyan statement was wrong. They said he had already been released, which he hadn't (mind you the guy we saw later boarding the plane was so muffled up that it might have been Murphy after all!)
A new conspiracy theory there for somebody :-)
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I think MacAskill handled it very well.
So does that well known unionist columnist Alan Cochrane, and he is normally the first to go frothing at the mouth against the SNP government at any real or imagined excuse.
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@146. deanthetory
I'm not clear now what your position is, you seemed to be arguing earlier that as a point of principle no prisoners should be released on compassionate grounds, that they should all serve out their sentence till it ends or they die incarcerated whichever comes first. In referring to the tragic loss of your relatives in the incident you stated that was the reason you would never accept compassionate release for Megrahi.
There are some people who are content with compassionate release in principle and simply object to it being applied to Megrahi, there are others who object to compassionate release in principle, and I'm curious to know your position.
It's clearly a deeply emotive topic for you, and I hope you take this as genuine attempt to better undersand you actual position.
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@49 Caledonian 54 good post, I think you may well be right.
I was a wee bit concerned after the announcement by Kenny MacAskill that the unionist attack dogs had been reined in slightly. BBC Scotland's Newsdrive wasn't the braying demolition of the verdict I'd expected and indeed was a tad muted and even dared speculate on alternative theories behind the bombing and Libya's energy future before moving swiftly on to other news.
Still a good nights sleep in the kennel and our trusty dogs are out straining at the leash again , barking for all they're worth. Scots should be allowed to hear plenty of this , especially of the "who do the jumped up Jocks think they are? strutting on the world stage as if they have a government" variety.
They can then contrast the party political ranting and opportunism with the quiet deliberations of Mr MacAskill.
I note a few people like Alistair Darling (and even Brian himself?) are more inclined to take the keep head down approach but they are fortunately vastly outnumbered by the ranters.
If they think this sustained attack on MacAskill, our elected Government and by extension Scots themselves is doing them good, who are we to interrupt?
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Re my own 155.
For the record I believe that mercy and compassion should always be available in any civilised justice system - and yes that does mean that I would consider a justice system without it to be uncivilised.
-----
I have no doubt that Mr MacAskill knew that if he decided to release Megrahi that the other parties would be all over it for political gain, the media would have just the story they want, that he would be criticised publicly from the highest levels of the US administration, and by no means least he know that many of the relatives would be greatly upset. So he stood by a principle of compassion in the face of all these things; yes, that is politically brave.
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150. Rev_S_Campbell
"So in common with the American families, what you're saying is that you don't care who spends their life in jail for the crime, as long as SOMEONE does"
I dont seek anyone in prison. I seek the man who committed this attrocity to be behind bars. You speak of doubt as to the stability of this mans conviction, well I would ask you to remember that former Lord Advocate, Lord Fraser, who issued the arrest warrants in 1991, has made clear that although he was not entirely happy with the evidence presented against Megrahi during his trial in 2000, this did not mean that he believed Megrahi to be innocent.
Few doubt Megrahi's guilt, but there are I conceed fair grounds to question the stability of the verdict.
It is wrong of you to say that Megrahi could be innocent, he is clearly guilty and even Lord Fraser who has cast doubt upon the reliability of the main prosecution witness, Tony Gauci is still refusing to say Megrahi is innocent.
", however, are blinded to this evidence by your grief and basic human desire for personal vengeance"
I simply want the man to serve his time in jail, as per ther guilty verdict outlined. I dont care whether it is a Scottish or Libyan prison, but he should have served his time in jail- he recieved a minimum 27 years. The "Compassionate Release" articles are not manitory, MacAskil wasnt obliged to release a man found guilty before a Scottish law court.
If you believe Megrahi to be innocent then I could understand your desire to see him released. But I have read transcripts, documents and evidence reports about this case in detail- and there is little doubt in my mind that Megrahi committed this murder. The only question to me is the strenght of the conviction.
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For one night only!
Setting aside the need to prevent al Megrahi from launching an appeal that would probably expose a number of security services for a gross perversion of justice, the only option was to release him. This exposes the Justice Secretary to the bile of some biddable Americans who believe that the guilty man is escaping justice but...hey...welcome to the real world (Official US condemnation seems strangely muted by the way).
What bought me out of retirement was the (in)Justice Secretary's nauseating showboating on the nine o'clock news! The whole thing reeked of the standard delusional piety that is oozing from the administration...that Scottish Law is superior to all others, that Scots have a much more highly evolved sense of compassion than others, that Scots possess greater wisdom and, in Mr MacKaskill's case, appear to be in exclusive communication with a Higher Power . Like most uber-Nats he seemed so far up himself and his own self-image that I'm surprised that he doesn't disappear.
Superior justice and mercy...pass the bucket someone!
PS: Any takers by the way for a small bet that Al Megrahi will still be alive in a years time?
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First of all I will have to admit that Meghari is ill. I saw him landing in Libya and he looked an ill man to me. I was a little concerned as I watched him board the jet in Scotland why he was all wrapped up to the extent that it was difficult to see who it was. My natural 'conspiracy theory' head went into overdrive until I remembered how cold it can be in Scotland even during the summer, especially for a person who is seriously ill.
It should now be obvious to all that the decision to release Meghari was taken sometime ago. Whether this was done by the USA, UK or Scottish government, or even all of them, is of no real importance. I suspect that there was a deal done by the UK government (see reports about Mandy, Prince Andrew, Gordon Brown and Blair) and this may have led to the deafening silence by the UK government and the Scottish Secretary of State over this affiar as they would not have wanted to upset the USA. This way the UK government can eat its cake and blame it on the Scottish government. If it had been the other way around then I am sure we would have done something similar to the UK government, but, sadly, that is what politics is all about. In that respect it was a tour de force of political intrique by UK Labour. They can walk away from this Scottish decision with their hands clean.
Now to MacAskill's decision. There are two possible scenarios here, and I won't go into too much detail as I have already posted my thoughts on this on the last blog. If, as the information floating about can be trusted, then there is the possibilty that Meghari was the subject of a miscarriage of justice then it is only right that he should be freed. However, if he was guilty then I would hold by my earlier posts that he should rot in jail. The decision by MacAskill was brave. He was damned if he did and damned if he didn't. This was a no win situation for him. I have to respect Kenny MacAskill's decision, even though I might not agree with it, depending on the scenarios above. His speech was clear and concise and was not designed solely for the Scottish public but had an eye on the middle American bible belt. He may be the Justice Secretary but he is also a politician and, as such, there had to be a modicum of political reality with in his speech.
This case, succinctly put over by Brian, is going to leave a bad taste in the mouth for Scottish justice for quite some time to come. However, as far as this episode is concerned, it has now gone and we should leave this to rest. We are never going to get Meghari to finish his sentence in Scotland, and as far as him serving his time in Libya is concerned, Gadaffi made it clear he would never be incarcerated in Libya (as they saw him as an innocent man). It is now time to move on as the decisions have been made and we will never know the full truth of this matter.
I feel sorry for those people who lost family members and those who had to endure the clearing up process.
# (Who benefits from the release) 139 frankly_francophone
'We are not entitled to accept some court decisions and reject others'
I would have to disagree with you there. I have every right to not to accept the decisions of the court. We live in a near democracy and I know of no law which forces me to accept all judgements of the courts. I think that what you are trying to put over is that we should respect the law. I have no problem with that and I strive to maintain the meaning of the law in my personal life. I know that sometimes I seem to come over as slightly leaning towards anarchy but that is far from the truth; I'm a believer in law and order. What I am not a believer in is blindly following all the decisions made by our learned judges because they are human too, and to err is human. If I think that they have made a mistake in their judgement then I have a right to contest that judgement. I do so in these types of blogs.
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152. oldnat
"(even though it occurred before you were born)."
Your point?!
I shouldnt feel passion about the deaths of these victims, and relations just becuase it happend "before I was born". Wont wash.
"Why don't you have a burning desire to find out the truth of what happened to them?"
As I have posted already, the only questions in my mind are:
1. the strenght of the conviction of Megrahi (I am, like Lord Fraser satisfied about his guilt however)
2. Why the UK agreed not to charge any other Libyan in return for the transfer of the two men to the Hague.
3. Why there has never been a public inqury into the whole affair.
These questions need answering, and if so then the truth will be entirely confirmed. I do nto doubt Megrahi's guilt however. The evidence is clear.
He travelled to Malti on a false passport for goodness sakes!
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"However, there was anger from Lockerbie over Megrahi's release. The self-styled "Baby of Lockerbie" described the decision as "quite disgusting". Aimee Guthrie was born within an hour of the disaster to a couple who ran a hotel in the Borders town. She said she would have preferred it if Megrahi had been left to die in jail"
-http://news.scotsman.com/latestnews/Saltires-waving-in-Tripoli-branded.5575788.jp
I agree, he ought to have. Eithe a Scottish or Libyan jail.
Oldnat- should Aimee Guthrie not care about Megrahi just because it was before her birth?!
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151 REV
I think you are missing the point here - This is to do with the handling of the release of a murdering terrorist.
MacAskill messed up big time in delivering the announcement, so much so the Libyan's who organised the terrorist act decided to tell the world of their success in getting Magrahi freed. This was before the country where he was held prisoner and before the relatives of victims were told. As everyone is watching him and listening to his 'best man type speech' anxious to hear his decision, the Libyan's cut to the chase and announce he is free.
In answer to your question: This is a massive worldwide story covered by all mainstream news organisations, so the need to watch both Libyan and Scottish news at the same time does not exist.
As I have said, MacAskill messed up in wanting to prolong his moment in the spotlight. The guy is a bufoon and an embarrassment to our nation.
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Kenneth Roy has a good article on the only enquiry held on Lockerbie.
http://www.scottishreview.net/KRSpecialEd.html
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# 149 lordbuzzybuzz
"MacAskill is a joke. He has embarrassed Scotland."
- No he hasn't. Quite the opposite will happen.
"Megrahi is now a hero in Libya, at Scotlands expense!"
- How can he be a "hero" exactly when he was innocent?
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Anyone with a bit of common sense could have sussed out that the Libyans were going to make a big deal about the release. They did it with the other suspect. So what?
It will soon be forgotten except by the small minded opposition politicians who will not let it go because they are not interested in the merits of the case, only in making political capital. They portray their hypocrisy is perfectly as they would not have wanted to be in MacAskill's shoes themselves but are only too willing to criticise the decision he made.
The general consensus is that this is not going to affect the UK or Scotland's relationship with the USA.
Has anyone seen the picture in the Record where they have dubbed on an extra Saltire in the crowd welcoming Megrahi?
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Glad you pointed that out oldnat or nut as Ms Croft prefers!
I was sorely tempted to blast the little person!
I have a funny feeling that "expediency " is a word with which he is familiar - at least in usage.
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@158 "Few doubt Megrahi's guilt, but there are I conceed fair grounds to question the stability of the verdict.
It is wrong of you to say that Megrahi could be innocent, he is clearly guilty"
The Court Of Appeal disagrees with you. It ruled that there was prima facie evidence that he was the victim of a miscarriage of justice and that he should therefore be granted leave for a second appeal.
There are two issues here:
1. Is Megrahi guilty or not? This is a matter of very considerable doubt, and may now never be established. What we know for sure is that the US and UK governments are very keen to suppress some vital evidence. What we also know for sure is that the crucial witness in the prosecution was paid millions of dollars by the US Government for his evidence.
2. Assuming for the sake of argument he is guilty, should he be released on compassionate grounds? This is much clearer - the Scottish justice system sets down that prisoners within three months of death, who are not a danger to the public, should be released on compassionate grounds, no matter what their crime was. This fact is part and parcel of their sentence. Even if someone is sentenced to a million years, never mind 27, they are supposed to be released before they die if they do not present a danger to the public. If you wish that system changed, by all means argue to that effect. But as the law stands in Scotland at this time, Megrahi's release was absolutely correct, and entirely in keeping with his conviction and 27-year sentence.
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155. mrbfaethedee
"It's clearly a deeply emotive topic for you, and I hope you take this as genuine attempt to better undersand you actual position."
I shall endevour then to make my line of thought clear, if it has been confusing I apologise- I have had moments where a little calm might have done me some good.
1. I don't condemn "compassionate release" wholesale. I accept that mercy tempered with justice is the most noble of instincts.
However I do not feel compassionate release is morally applicable in this case. The circumstances (I feel) are extraordinary where we are talking of a mass murderer (who took the lives of 270 civilians). This man aint any normal jail bird so to speak.
2. I accept the conviction Al-Megrahi, as Lord Fraser explained may have been on unsteady grounds- however - like Lord Fraser I still do not doubt the guilt of Megrahi.
3. I want to see an independent investigation into this decision, and more widely in scope into the Scottish side of the Lockerbie investigation itself.
4. Note that I reject any need then or now for international investigations- the original investigation could not have been more well funded or resourced.
I hope that this helps clear up my previous statements and all.
Most apologetically for any confusion,
Dean
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@163 "MacAskill messed up big time in delivering the announcement, so much so the Libyan's who organised the terrorist act decided to tell the world of their success in getting Magrahi freed. This was before the country where he was held prisoner and before the relatives of victims were told. As everyone is watching him and listening to his 'best man type speech' anxious to hear his decision, the Libyan's cut to the chase and announce he is free."
So what? Was there some sort of prize for "first to find out"? Everyone had already known what the verdict was going to be anyway. In the grand scheme of things with regard to this business, moaning about who found out a minute or two before someone else is the most strikingly absurd, petty and laughable complaint that's yet been levelled at the Justice Secretary.
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I was amused yesterday to see all the onlookers from Greenock haning about outside Greenock Gaol. It seems that one or two reporters were going round encouraging those assembled with prams and weans to jeer Megrahi. Up until them, they thought that some one called, McGarrity was being sent home to Lenzie after he had served a sentence for blowing a bin-liner. I would be very surprised if some of them could even pronounce Libya let alone say where it is. Come the election, who will they vote for? Why good old, "I'm very concerned about everything I'm told be to be concerned about" Duncan McNeil of the Labour party.
Once again, Kenny MacAskil is a brave and decent man. Only time will tell whether his bravery and decency will have damaged the SNP and Scotland's chance of freedom from the Labour and Tory gauleiters.
Deanthetory
Loved the sound of that mushroom risoto.
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#121 Neil_Small147
Your distorted untruth: "A lot of people her are praising the 'brave stance' of MacAskill and describing him as a 'hero'."
Actual truth: One person here has described MacAskill as a "hero". (BoNG0_1, #84). One person is not "a lot of people here". Typical of your distortion of the truth.
For your information, I was involved at the scene too, but I'm not brandishing it like some sort of proof of moral superiority like you are.
This is not a competition to see who knows the most people or who is related to the most people who died in this tragic incident.
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@161 "I shouldnt feel passion about the deaths of these victims, and relations just becuase it happend "before I was born"."
How far back do you go? That's not a rhetorical question, I'm genuinely interested to hear your cutoff point for holding a grudge about the deaths of relatives you never knew. 20 years ago? 30? World War 2? World War 1? The Middle Ages? Do you still hate the Germans? What about people from Northumberland whose great-great-great-great-great-grandparents might have slaughtered some of your ancestors at Culloden?
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In fear of being moderated again! I'd like to meet face to face with Mr MacAskill indeed I am sure there are many relatives of those murdered who would also like a similar meeting. Did you see the triumphant homecoming parade! The leadership of our country including the wider UK and those sitting in the wings are simply appalling, I fear for future generations. If fate plays it part perhaps this gentelmans path will cross mine? Meanwhile I'll make do with a local SNP election agent and local councillor!
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One thing I don't understand is why the Scottish Parliament is being recalled...
Does anyone know?
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#131
I know what you mean. I found myself wondering if Gavin Essler would prefer us to keep Megrahi's corpse in jail.
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Rev_S_Campbell
Oldnat
others
I apologise for any overly emotional postings which I made. I apologise for any untoward rude posting (especially to you Rev)- but hope that my postings as per 169 clears my position up. Summing my main issues and contentions.
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Wow, where to start.
First let me say that I think the decision was wrong, it wasn't an invalid decision by any means but I think it was the bad one to take. I think morally, when you have received a punishment, that you should face that punishment. It angers me that people like Mr Reverent above try to muddy the waters by claiming this was about his innoncence, which thankfully MacAskill pushed aside. Not everyone in this situation gets such treatment, they certainly don't get the celebrity treatment that Megrahi has been granted by both the Scottish and Libyan governments.
It's not about anger, this has genuinely hurt and upset many hundreds of his victims. People rant about America making demands, the American government was doing it's job in representing it's citizens who are in the majority the victims here.
The reason why decisions like this are reserved to a Justice Minister/Home Secretary/relevant person is because it's not an absolute, factors need to be taken into consideration. As far as I can see, the effect it will have on the victims is the biggest one and I think it was wrong that these peoples views were ignored.
As to the way it was handled.
There are two aspects to this. The whole process was bungled, MacAskill tried to use the entire thing as a PR exercise from the word go and it backfired. He was then left in a hole with a ladder and a spade, and chose to keep using the spade.
The speech: I think most people on here, outside the ardent nationalists who nod and agree whatever thinking that any criticism is a "Unionist" attack, would agree that he fluffed the speech.
The speech lacked even the most basic of appropriate structure.
The religious overtones seemed artificial, insincere and worse it made him look as if he hadn't taken the decision on the basis of cold, fair reason.
The pitiful attack on the government, before he announced his decision, was more than just a bit too faithful to the party memo about how every announcement which might be disliked by anyone should include the line (by the way it's the governments fault not ours!).
The fact that the Libyan government released the information before he did as he was too busy writing his sermon on the mount and trying to salvage a PR campaign out of a serious issue.
The final nail in the cross though was the welcome that Megrahi received. This wasn't spontaneous in any way. Gaddaffi had people taken by bus to the military airport to welcome him back, and probably supplied the Scotland flags. Salmond has went on air today claiming to be upset at this, yet they did nothing whatsoever to prepare for it. As was pointed out above we could have arranged for his flight home, or put conditions in place upon his release. It's the worst type of political naivety that they seemed genuinely unaware that this was going to happen, and as a result the victims have suffered once again, and the guilty has been rewarded.
This has nothing to do with whether you support the Nationalists cause or not.
I think the decision to release a terrorist and mass murderer, against the express wishes of his victims was wrong.
Even if it was right to do so the whole process was bungled. Listening to that speech, hearing the thoughts of victims and watching that man arrive back in Libya to a heroes welcome, flying saltires, made me angry, embarassed and ashamed of my country today.
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#122 deanthetory
Your distorted untruth: "Your words where 'Just dont watch it'. Your words."
Actual truth: My words were "those affected don't have to watch anything at all." (#108)
This statement was made as part of exposing the falsehood uttered by Neil Small that those affected are somehow forced to watch TV coverage "again and again".
That is still a falsehood regardless of your ranting about my alleged "lack of compassion".
The above is a typical example of your distortion of the truth.
In this case you have now made this false claim about what I said twice. Once in #109, where you sneeringly dismiss what I said as an example of "Christian compasion and now once in your #122.
Try to get it through the wood: people can read this post and see what I actually said.
People can see for themselves that what you are claiming to be "my words" are not "my words" at all, but YOUR words attempting to bend the truth of what I actually said.
Or, people can read my actual words in post #108 and see, again, that you are falsely accusing me of using words I didn't use, trying to bend the meaning of them in an attempt to get people to believe your distorted reality.
Since people have brains and can read for themselves, and are not limited to the low level of intelligence you grant them, let them read and decide for themselves what was actually said.
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#177 deanthetory
No problem. Good to have the "nice chap" back again.
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173. Rev_S_Campbell
"How far back do you go?"
Its not about vengence- that is your word and percieved motive of mine. It is hardly true.
As for how far back? Well the police always investigate crimes, seek revisions on previous conclusions and convictions all the time. Even if the case is 30 or even 100 years old.
An unsolved crime is still investigated, as is the desire to seek a conclusion to that crime.
I hope you are not saying that all investigations, police revisions, and court re-examinations into the past criminal findings is merely based on vengence and not hte persuit of a final truthful justice?
I know thatI would love there to be an investigation into the Scottish side of the Lockerbie investigation (original), I know that I -also like Lord Fraster- suspect the stability of the original Megrahi conviction. However this still doesnt mean that I can't seek the man found guilty to be held in prison- despite these factors; it certainly isnt out of revenge.
Its a matter of justice, due process and conluding these awful chapters of our history.
Sorry Rev, but to seek this ones needs to be able to reinvestigate past events, keep the guilty in prison to serve sentences all without being after 'revenge'.
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178. NCA999
Good, honest and fine sentiments!
Hear Hear! (waving white paper in the air)
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That wondrous reporter, once of the Scotsman and any other paper that would give him house room, that likeable rogue Tim Lacklustre , has a delightful piece in the Independent.
You will all be well pleased with his thoughtful, fair approach to
Mr MacAskill, Mr Megrahi and the decision taken.
I know he used to haunt the Daily Mail prior to the election of 2007 , bad mouthing the SNP and telling whoever would listen that he would upsticks and leave Scotland ( he was going anyway!) and I do dislike folk using " Daily Mail reader" as some sort of slur, but for the Independent to print stuff more suited to the Mail disappointed ,nay horrified me!
Actually I may have maligned the Mail , perhaps more suited to the Record, Sun or NoW.
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i see Macaskills boy megrahi has recieved a heroes welcome in Libya. We really rubbed the suvivors families noses in the dogmess. Until today i was a member of the SNP, i will bin my card and never vote SNP again. I am utterly disgusted. i never thought the day would come when i was ashamed to be Scottish. Shameful day for Scotland.
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@184 "i see Macaskills boy megrahi has recieved a heroes welcome in Libya. We really rubbed the suvivors families noses in the dogmess. Until today i was a member of the SNP, i will bin my card and never vote SNP again."
No you weren't. And if you were I'm sure they'll be glad to see the back of someone as dim as you. Megrahi was welcomed by a few dozen people who believe him to be an innocent man, and whose joy at his return is therefore perfectly rational. The notion that that somehow represents a failing of the Scottish Government or the SNP is so boneheaded as to be laughable.
And once again, some arrogant dolt cites the families of the victims while ignoring all the victims' families who DO agree with this decision. (Not quite sure who you mean by "survivors families". There were no survivors from the passengers or crew of Pan Am 103.)
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Good Blog Brian, on the whole I think MacAskill made the right decision for the right reasons. The speech was written with American ears in mind. Hoped this day would never come, but it was inevitable I suppose
#172 Well said, there's been far too much righteous indignation and petty point scoring. Freeing Megrahi has brought back a lot of memories and thoughts about that night, which I had hoped not go over again. I feel sad and confused, but take comfort in the belief MacAskill has done the right thing. I would certainly not have been happy if he had approved the prisoner transfer as some have been shouting for.
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@181 "I know thatI would love there to be an investigation into the Scottish side of the Lockerbie investigation (original), I know that I -also like Lord Fraster- suspect the stability of the original Megrahi conviction. However this still doesnt mean that I can't seek the man found guilty to be held in prison- despite these factors; it certainly isnt out of revenge."
It's a very confusing position. You accept that he may be innocent but demand that he dies in jail anyway. You see how that looks like a position of vengeance, yes?
Regardless of whether he was guilty or not, though, the position of Scottish law - and the recommendation of the Parole Board, the governor of Greenock Prison and just about everyone else in a proper position of authority on the matter - is that those who are about to die and are not a danger to the public should be released.
I agree entirely with your belief that there should be a proper inquiry, and hope that the US and UK governments will not continue to block it. Because if Megrahi really was the guilty man, they have nothing to hide, do they?
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Porky!
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#57 deanthetory, #68 oldnat, #105 deanthetory, #111 Rev_S_Campbell, #117 fourstrikes, #120 deanthetory, #131 minceandmealie, #134 gardinera, #135 deanthetory, #139 Electric Hermit, #140 Rev_S_Campbell, #141 gardinera, #161 deanthetory .... and probably some more since I started writing this post.
As I say in my #66 and elsewhere, I rather agree with Dean that prisoner would have been the best option, with the same basic results but without the arrival ceremonies, but only if it was legal and broke no promises to the families or international agreements.
That this was not possible is explained in MacAskill's statement, available from the Scottish Government's Lockerbie decision. The link is well worth reading - especially the section on prisoner transfer, but provides none of the evidence Dean asked for.
As oldnat discovered, sorting the wheat from the chaff in internet search hits relating to events of 1998 and 1999 is not easy, and made harder by the fact that many relevant sites like the US State Depratment don't organise their press release archives for easy access by date.
I have, however, discovered that the 2002 book, United States practice in international law, Volume 1 by Sean D. Murphy contains a very clear summary of public events relating to Libya at the end of 1998 and in early 1999. You can see for yourself if you follow the link, but in précis they are:
Page 362
29 September 1998 Speech of the Libyan ambassador to the UN General Assembly
insisting any sentences be served in Libya or The Netherlands if convicted
Page 363
?? December 1998 Pres. Clinton reiterated that the US-UK plan was a `take it or
leave it offer´
5 April 1999 Libya surrendered the two nationals after receiving private clarifications
from UN SecGen Kofi Annan concerning a US-UK plan for the trial
If not actually proving MacAskill's problem, it is surely pretty obvious that the US-UK plan was for the sentences to be served in Scotland.
In any event, Miliband Major could have denied it in his statement today but did not.
You can argue that MacAskill should or could have tried harder to get the US to issue a statement accepting prisoner transfer but given the publicly expressed attitudes of Pres Obama and Mrs Clinton it seems unlikely that would have succeeded.
Off out now, but back tonight, I hope.
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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DeanTheTory:
I don't see why you are here writing comments after comments, you've made your position as clear as crystal, "I therefore shall never accept his release so long as I draw breath." I find most of the time when a person repeats themselves over and over, most the time it's simply done to help them convince themselves that they actually think they agree/disagree with something.
Do you actually believe Megrahi would be treated as a prisoner in Libya, if we went down the road of Prisoner Transfers?
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184. alonzo11
I doubt that you ever were an SNP party member- card and all.
187. Rev_S_Campbell
"You see how that looks like a position of vengeance, yes?"
Looks like but isn't.
Although I see the current evidence as enough to suffice a guilty verdict- for others I accept there may be still too much doubt. That is what I mean by 'insecure' verdict- one where there is still grounds for doubt. Doubt I happen to sympathise with but do not share.
Perhaps there were issues in the original trial- but I still believe that there is enough proof for myself to conclude Megrahi's guilt.
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oops - meant prisoner transfer in previous post
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I think MacAskill did the right thing. He was out in an impossible situation by the US and UK governments , where he was damned either way.
The Rev (#168) is right - the decision to release Megrahi follows the guidlines and is technically correct, like it or not. If the full truth is ever revealed, this decision may be seen in a different light.
And if you're interested, look closely at Megrahi getting on the plane in Glasgow, he appears to be wearing a bullet proof vest.
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#184
Is this the stupidest post ever on Brian's blog?
I sincerely hope this dunderhead was never in any position of any sort in the SNP.
Scottish law does not allow the terminally ill to be kept in jail. This has nothing to do with the crime or the sentence and it certainly has nothing whatever to do with Hilary Clinton or Obama
I know Megrahi is innocent. Nearly every sensible person I know knows Megrahi is innocent. The Libyans know Megrahi is innocent. The UN knows Megrahi is innocent (the UN report talks of a "grave miscarriage of justice"). More importantly both the US and the UK governements know Megrahi is innocent and all this spurious and synthetic outrage is to mask the extent in which they were involved in a heinous stitch up (and to have convenient go a the SNP at the same time).
I am sure the SNP will ride this out and will be much strengthened as a result and I am proud to stand with all those in Scotland "capable of stringing a sentence together" (as another poster put it)in applauding this sensible act of compassion.
My desire to live in an independent Scotland has strengthened(if that was at all possible).
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194. sneckedagain
"Is this the stupidest post ever on Brian's blog?"
I doubt that he was ever a member of the SNP at all. Afterall the only people with membership cards of any party tend to be committed to the cause, even if particular events shake trust.
If I were SNP I would hardly loose sleep over poster 184.
"I know Megrahi is innocent"
We shall have to agree to disagree here.
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#178
NCA999.
There was no other decision possible in law.
We do not keep terminally ill people in prison and never will.
The rest of your post collapses entirely on this point.
What the Americans want is of absolutely no relevance.
I suspect the Amricans are only going through the motions anyway for their blockheaded home audience but I expected rather better from some our own politicians.
Let's hear rather more about the Iranian Airbus with 290 innocent civilians aboard that the Americans shot out of the sky and which the American President refused point blank to apologise for.
I'm glad McAskill saw the Americans off. Time every body else took the hint and did the same instead of rolling over and dancing to Uncle Sam's tune at every opportunity.
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For what it's worth I'm in two minds about this. On the one hand I'm not sure Megrahi deserves compassion, although the Justice Secretary has a point that our system has moved past "an eye for an eye" and we shouldn't lower our standards to some lowest common denominator.
On the other hand his conviction seems to have several rather large question marks attached and, given that he is expected to die shortly, a degree of compassion (also for his family let's not forget) may be appropriate.
Any decision on this would have split opinion so MacAskill was certainly in a tight spot. Personally I find it commendable that he appears to have made the decision in an entirely honourable way, taking all the advice he was offered and giving it due consideration, without bending to external pressures. Isn't a principled stance what we want from our politicians? Of course we may not agree with their principles, but that being the case we have the opportunity to remove them from office at the next election.
Finally, one aspect that I don't think anyone has yet raised. Iain Gray was quoted as saying that had he been First Minister, Megrahi would not be going home. Is he saying that he would have interfered with the decision of his Justice Secretary? I'm not sure how else he can make such a bold claim. And would such interference not have been both illegal as well as highly dangerous for our justice system (a judiciary independent of government being a cornerstone of western democracy)?
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#172 bigh
The reason I pointed out my involvement was before the usual suspects on this blog immediately accuse any slight criticism of the SNP as unionist dribble. Neither am I on some moral crusade.
The tone of many of your posts is aggressive. Why? My posts are not aimed specifically at you. No one else responds in such a direct manner. I've also noted you are having a go at deanthetory.
My point about descriptions of MacAskill being a hero refers to HYS posts as well.
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No doubt it will be asked about in some of the GB polls to come in the last week of the month, but in the meantime the Sunday Times last weekend reported a Cello mruk poll of Scottish opinion on Abdelbaset Ali Mohmed al-Megrahi last weekend. The poll was actually carried out way back in June, but “could not be reported for legal reasons” (presumably in case it influenced his appeal or any future retrial).
Firstly, 60% of people in Scotland said they thought that Megrahi was guilty, with 9% saying he was innocent and 31% unsure. 51% thought he received a fair trial, 10% thought he didn’t.
Asked what should be done with him, of those who expressed an opinion (meaning we don’t know how many people said they didn’t know), 49% said he should remain in gaol, 40% that he should be transferred to a Libyan gaol and 11% that he should be freed on compassionate grounds. So, releasing him was the preferred option for only a tiny minority of Scots…though a majority of those with an opinion did want him sent back to Libya one way or another
---- UK polling report "Scottish Polling on Megrahi" published online: "posted on August 21st, 2009 by Anthony Wells"
SNP clearly didnt take a popular decision. This ought to silence the blogging idiots who keep alleging the SNP were releasing Megrahi on political grounds- clearly they weren't.
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Iain Gray owes Alex Salmond (and in this case Justice Secretary MacAskill) yet another apology for the ridiculous slurs he has concocted. Gray is a disgrace to Scotland’s political system, and to his party; he appears wholly prepared to undermine the legitimacy of Scots Law for his own partisan gain – based on what can only be described as a lie.
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All the politicians I feel are feigning emotions they don't feel and striking attitudes they don't really hold. I can't believe that Brown and Miliband did not let their recommendations be known to Salmond and MacAskill. Obama and Clinton are protesting on behalf of the American victims' families but that's all. All the politicians - Scottish, British and American - are putting long-term economic interest ahead of justice.
MacAskill's press conference was absurd. He talked of Scotland as if it was a uniquely humanitarian country. He gave the impression that we Scots are a bunch of soft-headed, Burns-quoting touchy-feelies who have lost sight of the concept of just punishment and who let our emotions prevail over our reason. The logic of his position is that every terminally ill prisoner should be released. Because there is no-one in our history who has committed a worse crime than Megrahi.
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deanthetory, #122
Three times in a single, short post you attempt to reinforce a lie by misquoting bighullabaloo.
Your version, "Just don't watch", is deliberately calculated to obliterate both sense and meaning of a remark that you hope to characterise as offensive.
For those of us who have learned to read, the original, "Alternatively, those affected don't have to watch anything at all", bears little relation to your twisted interpretation.
I've been reading your stuff for a long time. Inexperience, ignorance and poor education are forgiveable but your obvious pride in them, and the nasty arrogance with which you pursue them as virtues, isn't.
I'm completely mystified when someone like you has the gall to tell us that "The likes of Rev Campbell can twist their facts all they like".
During this discussion you've repeatedly attempted to belittle the opinions of others by telling them to "grow up". Unfortunately, I've seen no evidence to suggest that you're ever likely to do likewise but that isn't our problem. Write to your parents!
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I've added a poll over at Brigadoon in case anyone would like to help gauge Blether with Brian opinion on this topic. if you were Justice Secretary how would you have treated Megrahi?
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#199 deanthetory
"releasing him was the preferred option for only a tiny minority of Scots"
Do you ever actually read and think about what you're saying before you post it here? Your own post states this was a poll of "those who expressed an opinion". i.e. just the people they happened to ask who had some thought one way or the other about the matter.
That is not "all Scots". It is not even the opinion of "a tiny minority of Scots". It is the opinion of the "those who expressed an opinion".
How do we know that they asked anyone at all? How do we know they didn't just make it all up for political point-scoring purposes, for the benefit of their political paymasters? Who actually pays for these "polls"? Are they conducted by a benevolent non-profit making organisation with no political axe to grind?
If you even attempted to address any of these questions your "polls" might have some credibility. But you won't, indeed, can't answer these questions. You have no interest in answering these questions. You are interested only in trying to bend people's perception of events in a way that supports and validates YOUR political opinion.
This is a very juvenile trait. Adults lose this "What I think needs to be validated" with the growing realisation that what anyoen thinks is just a relative take on reality, of no greater or lesser merit to anyone else's take.
So why not just quit trying to bend everyone's perceptions and just accept that not everyone agrees with you? It isn't necessary for anyone to agree with you.
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I do believe this decision was the only one and correct, as previous posters have correctly highlighted the democratic world is not duty bound to change opinion when it that opinion does not suit the Imperial Empire that is the USA. I actually watched the Discovery documentary on the shooting down of the Iranian Airbus this week, mmm interesting analysis, maybe Obama, Clinton et al should wind their necks in. As for the Iain Gray making a political penalty shoot out over this how about his Westminster colleagues decision to change face in the space of a week and release Biggs. Maybe the Home secretary was well aware that if Megrahi were to be released he would look rather stupid denying Biggs, or was this to set a precedent and leave KM in the firing line?.
Far too much points scoring by too many chancers
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202. albamac
One you keep reading you will find I make an apology for my overly emotional state.
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Looking at all the reaction to this decision, it confirms that a lot of people in Britain are totally fed up with the subservient attitude to America that Blair took and they welcome this decision as one of almost "cocking a snook at the Yanks." Certainly Blair's brown nosing was disgraceful and has done this country's standing immense damage but that shouldn't have been grounds for Megrahi's release and looking at Kenny MacAskill's statement I'm convinced that it wasn't. The fact that so many people think like that just shows how low America's standing has sunk because of Bush's policies. I have family in America and I am naturally pro-American so this state of affairs saddens me.
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deanthetory @169
Thanks for the response.
1. I don't condemn "compassionate release" wholesale. I accept that mercy tempered with justice is the most noble of instincts.
However I do not feel compassionate release is morally applicable in this case. The circumstances (I feel) are extraordinary where we are talking of a mass murderer (who took the lives of 270 civilians). This man aint any normal jail bird so to speak.
So presumably you can understand that someone else might view the same issue as you and yet come to the opposite decision. This was the Justice Secretary's decision to make, he made it - some agree, some disagree. Some of the outrage vented on this board seems completely over the top in my opinion.
3. I want to see an independent investigation into this decision...
Why? what is it you seek to discover/prove?
3 & 4 (Scottish and International investigations) - all or nothing in my opinion. Re-examining the Scottish side of the investigation alone seems pointless to me, if we want to re-examine it we ought to do it all. A full enquiry into the entire investigation will not happen though.
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#202 albamac
Thank you for confirming my unshakable belief in the ability of rational adults to read and understand simple sentences in plain English.
In my #179 I totally demolish his juvenile attempt to put words into my mouth and attribute a sentiment to me that I didn't convey.
In his #199 he's waded in again with some daft poll result, trying to convince us all it's Absolute Irrefutable Truth.
Obviously learned nothing. I've had another go at penetrating the wood in my #204, but I'm not holding out much hope. Oak is a hard wood.
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204. bighullabaloo
If you calm down and read the post you would find that it is all the words of Anthony Wells.
I was merely highlighting to you the first poll since this has issue has started. I knw you may hate me- but dont attribute other peoples words to me please.
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209. bighullabaloo
As I said to 204. bighullabaloo you will find that it is all the words of Anthony Wells. Not mine. He is in charge of UK polling report by the way.
As I said, earlier I have apologised- but if you calm down yourself and re-read the posting as per 199 you shall find it is COPIED word for word from UK polling report. If you dont like what he says take it up with him for goodness sake.
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I’m not at all sure about this business of upsetting the Americans, or rather supposedly upsetting the Americans.
To go back to my earlier post(s). The decision to release Mr Megrahi was not a matter of SNP policy and it is therefore quite wrong to “blame” the SNP for releasing him. He was returned to Libya in accordance with the law, which provides for the early release of terminally-ill prisoners, not because Mr MacAskill or Mr Salmond or any other member of the Scottish government thought it would be an absolutely splendid idea to do so.
Instead, as I suggested, all the indications are that the release was deemed opportune by Mr Brown and his colleague Lord Mandelson, and Mr MacAskill’s supposed “dithering” in delaying that release was because he was very properly unwilling to go down the prison transfer route without adequate assurances that such a transfer would not be in breach of the agreement by which Mr Megrahi was tried under Scottish jurisdiction in the first place, particularly since it was politically quite impossible for the American government to give assent for a transfer.
Yet it is plausibly suggested that ultimately it is in the interest of the American administration that Mr Megrahi should be returned to Libya in order to forestall a renewed appeal and possible exposure of sensitive evidence.
In the circumstances therefore is it not more likely that the very vehemence of the rhetoric emanating from Mrs Clinton and her Senate colleagues is in reality aimed at masking their true position with sound and fury – and even perhaps encouraging Mr MacAskill to play David to their Goliath?
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Just a quick thought… are those complaining about the display of Scottish flags in Tripoli simply jealous because their own is normally only seen there as a prelude to its being burned in protest against perceived injustices?
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#210 deanthetory
"If you calm down and read the post you would find that it is all the words of Anthony Wells."
Dean -
It might help if, when you are quoting other people, you use a little device called "quotation marks".
They make it clear to all that the words you're writing are not your words but an exact quotation of words uttered by another.
Expecting people to realise that because of some tagged on attribution at the end is an inadequate way of communicating that you are quoting Anthony Wells. That's why we have quotation marks.
Can I suggest as a first step that you take a night class in basic English punctuation?
Then, take 20 years off blogging to work out what your actual opinions are - not Anthony Wells' opinions (note the correct use of the possessive there on Wells') and not the opinions of some faceless people in some daft poll.
When you are sufficiently erudite come back and start expressing some political views, which you are perfectly entitled to do.
You will find a certain respect from all regardless of your views not being shared by by all.
This is called civilised, adult behaviour.
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#210 deanthetory
Brownedov and I discussed the deficiencies of this particular pollster on BT's "super thread" - Keeping Time.
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199 deanthetory
Sure to goodness you don't see this poll as even remotely indicative of Scottish public opinion. You might accuse me of having a limited circle of friends and aquaintences but I have never met anyone who actually believes that Megrahi is guilty. He was and is a patsy fed to the lions of American public opinion.
Obama currently is riding high on this whole issue when only a few days ago he was hated by America's middle classes for trying to introduce a fair and proper health care system. He is, 'outraged'? Well tough, you're a here today and gone tomorrow politician and so is Mrs Bubba.
America is not at all a caring and compassionate society. Millions of it's citizens go hungry and die for want of proper care and medical treatment in the richest country in the world. It gases, electrocutes, hangs, poisons and shoots its prisoners or perhaps worse, they leave them to languish for years on, 'death row'in plain sight of the death chamber. The won't sign the international accord for human rights. Why is that? Well it's simply because they want to torture their captives, the want to invade sovereign states and they want to spread their rather curious brand of, 'democracy' to those places they feel need it, that is to say, countries rich in resources that can be plundered. So let them complain and threaten to boycot our goods and let the LibDem's justice spokesman tell us that his American 'freens' have, "emailed to say they're not coming on a visit to Scotland now". Who cares, let them go to Afghanistan. And don't anyone lecture me about the need for American investment. If you do, let me point out to you the fact that virtually all the 'silicon glen' companies have gone: Honeywell, Caterpillar, Motorola, Burroughs and the mighty Big Blue itself is about to end it's presence in Greenock. God bless America? Well God will have to because I won't.
And turning to Iain Gray, sheesh....this is a man who has never taken an independent political decision in his life. In fact, I doubt if he can rise in the morning without a call from Alistair Campbell telling him to do so. What a hypocrite, what a prig the man is. In the same position ie., as Justice Secretary he would have HAD to do the same as MacAskil and let Megrahi go home, it's the LAW.
We keep hearing cries of, "justice for the people who died". Yes, they do deserve justice but they haven't had it up to now. As we all now know, the Scottish Judiciary was set up by being deprived of vital information during the trial which it seems would have possibly exonerated Megrahi. Perhaps the evidence was a on a disc that just happened to go missing.
It's all a filthy, dirty mess with if I may paraphrase Tennessee Williams has a 'Powerful smell of mendacity'.
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MacAskill appeared like a simpleton, listening to him string his sentences together was excruciating, he is a HAM!
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I've just been trying to put a few thoughts together in order to make sense of what is going on with regards to Libya, terrorism, Megrahi etc.
Let's accept for the sake of argument that Megrahi is guilty. Megrahi was convicted of the Lockerbie bombing; he was an employee of the Libyan Government and was carrying out the wishes of the Libyan Government. (I've got this right, haven't I?).
So the Libyan Government shares the responsibility. Right?
So that makes Libya guilty of mass murder.
So why on earth are Tony Blair and Peter Mandelson not guilty of cosying up with terrorists? On top of that we now understand that a member of the British Royal Family was going to visit Libya.
So, it's ok for some members of the UK elite to become involved with terrorists but as soon as the SNP get involved and act with the law, they get crucified.
Feel free to fling tomatoes at me if I'm barking up the wrong tree here but I have simple brain and it's been a long day....
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It was correct to release this convicted killer and serving Libyan intelligence officer on compassionate grounds. What was not correct was the grandstanding that Mr MacAskill indulged in.
The political fallout from freeing this man will soon fade away when the next big 'controversy' hits the headlines.
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#217 MaliceTown
Another of your insulting posts. You attack the Tories and the SNP. You don't demonstrate the subtleties of a Lib-Dem or SSP poster.
I suspect that you are a Labour supporter.
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#219 Rustigjongens
We all see things differently, I suppose.
I thought McAskill explained his decisions and the reasons behind them well. It was useful for example to hear his clear explanation of why he met with Megrahi - an occasion that had led to much speculation by the conspiracists.
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#218 Blind-Captain
Maybe your closer than you'll ever know?.
Foreign policy, from the imperial powers to today's super powers have been the bain of the worlds society and yes! of course many believe in black ops and hawks that start wars. (wag the dogs tail)
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201 Jockgreenleaf:
"The logic of his position is that every terminally ill prisoner should be released. Because there is no-one in our history who has committed a worse crime than Megrahi."
That is absolutely the position in Scots law since 1993, when the UK parliament under a Conservative government passed the relevant legislation. MacAskill accepted the medical evidence and released Megrahi according to the law and established practice, as 23 prisoners before him have been released. It is not specifically MacAskill's position that every terminally ill prisoner should be released. You might want the law to be changed, but that is the law.
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#218 BlindCaptain
Agreed!
Accepting your premises, I agree with your subsequent assertions.
If we are to accept that Megrahi is guilty and acted in his capacity as an agent of the Libyan state, then the extension of guilt to the state if Libya is clear and obvious. Of course the establishment will not face up to it, hiding instead behind lazy cynicism and shrugging it off as realpolitik.
Another reason to be glad that we have been able in this case to stand on a position of principle.
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I've just been watching the CNN News channel, which is the only American channel I can get access to. The Megrahgi affair is not even in the first five top news items. In fact one of these was the national lottery, so that demenostrates to me that America is not that cut up about what's happened and it seems that all the hype about it is coming from much closer to home.
Witnessing the Newsnight Scotland programme last night, I have to ask if BBC Scotland has actually got the interests of Scotland at heart when it pushes out biased programmes like this? It's political mischief making!
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208. mrbfaethedee
I would hope that an investigation into the collection of the forensics at the scene, the coordination of the police and the general investigation conducted in Scotland- at the crash site might help establish one way or another if the guilty verdict is sound.
Lord Fraser may have a point in that the original trial ignored the weakness of the main prosecution witness. Hopefully an investigation into the forenstics aspect would prove (as I think it would) or disprove Al-Megrahi.
This is why on the last threat I was so disapointed at the dropping of the second appeal. Not least because I was certain that it should have went ahead and it would (I believe) prove Megrahi guilt.
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Right... so Gordon Brown knew about Mr MacAskill's decision to release Mr Megrahi long enough beforehand to be able to write a letter to Colonel Gaddafi requesting a quiet and orderly reception of a man not yet freed.
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#226 Deanthetory
The forensics from the scene which led the investigation to Malta, where the shop and the shopkeeper who reportedly said he sold the jacket to Megrahi no longer holds substance, nor do any of the other two witnesses that saw Megrahi in that area at that time.
Apparently the bomb was loaded on the plane in Frankfurt however the plane was free loaded until it reached heathrow?.
Some believe that the "secret evidence" held by the UK government, is confirmation that the detonator was of syrian nature and goes against the evidence that convicted Megrahi to the detonator.
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forfar loon @197, I noticed that remark from Iain Grey as well. Apparently if he had been First Minister he wouldn't have made that decision.
He's really living in cloud cuckoo land if he expects us to believe that London Labour would have allowed someone as junior as the leader of the group of Labour MSP's at the Scottish Parliament to make such an important decision (even if it wasn't down to the Justice Secretary, who wouldn't get a sniff either)
Remember when Wendy challenged the hated ethenpee the "bring it on"and Gordon quietly told the poor power mad wee soul to get back in her box.
Giggity can only fantasise about being entrusted with such an important decision. A bit like the fantasy of a Scottish labour party, it's all in his head.
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I had a look at the Discussion Forum on the Washington Post on this issue.
http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/undergod/2009/08/mercy_for_mass_murderer.html?hpid=talkbox1
There is a much saner set of views there than on the equivalent NR blog!
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If Mr. MacAskill's only statement of a religious nature was his reference to a "higher power" (which is not, specifically, a Christian reference), I don't see why anyone should make a fuss about it. I don't know what the normal practice is in Scotland, but it's certainly a modest statement by American standards, in any case.
Many seem to think that a grant of mercy is unjust in this case, but justice was never possible for such a crime anyway.
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1) I believe this was broadly the correct judgement - although people I respect think otherwise. That's the nature of this kind of decision.
2) The Justice Secretary was clearly extremely nervous - I doubt if he ever anticipated being in the glare of international attention in this way. It's a pity that he decided to have a dig at the Westminster Government; feeling he had to prove he was a nationalist undermined his impact.
3) Interesting suggestion in Brian's analysis - that the religious tone was aimed at the US audience - I certainly hadn't thought of MacAskill as a clergyman-manque!
4) The real disappointment is that this government - usually so sure-footed in managing the news should have been so cack-handed over their spinning this time. If the decision had been taken quietly and privately and announced once Magrahi was on his way home the minister would have been able to take it without US pressure, and perhaps might have deprived the Lybians of the time to organise the saltire-waving demonstration that was so distasteful. Or (Machiavellian thought) was it carefully managed to allow the SNP government to grandstand on the international stage - maybe in the hope of embarrassing London?
5) This is an interesting case-study on the devolution settlement. By dividing the justice responsibility so completely from responsibility for foreign affairs, it was possible for Scotland to behave mercifully to Megrahi in a way which would have been impossible either for a Westminster Government with Scottish justice responsibilities or for an independent Scottish Government. #229 wonders if a Labour minister would have been allowed to make this decision. I wonder if Alex Salmond would have been so ready to give McaAskill his head if the Scottish Government had responsibility for relations with the USA.
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Make no mistake Ken Macaskill proved that he was the right person to make this sort of decision. He had the guts to stand up to the Americans, he also forced the UK government into an embarrassing silence. He also stood up for the Scottish justice system when it is clear it has made serious errors in processing this case. MacAskill followed due process, rejected the prisoner transfer scheme and made a decision based on clemency.
Make no mistake MacAskill dug Gordon Brown out of a hole.
Compare that to Iain Gray who is telling anyone who will listen that if he was First Minister he would have said "No". Does anyone believe such nonsense?
Firstly, Iain Gray did not offer up his view prior to this decision.
Secondly, it is the Scottish Justice minister's decision to make, not the First Minister's.
Thirdly, there is no way that Iain Gray would cross his boss Gordon Brown.
Fourthly, Scots would never vote for a puppet like Iain Gray.
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#231 GH1618
Welcome.
I presume you are American, and despite the outpourings of nonsense that has been produced over this, I don't anticipate being a hate target in the USA when I fly over next week.
I didn't take McAskill's comments as being religious either - but setting the moral context within which the decision was taken.
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#232 Openminded_leftie
Welcome, newbie, always good to see a open mind. But I have to disagree with you in 3 of the areas you cover:
"It's a pity that he decided to have a dig at the Westminster Government"
He did so only in respect of the prisoner transfer treaty which they "forgot" to clear with Washington. By thus denying him an important option it made his decision both more difficult and more urgent. Would you not have been cross with them?
"The real disappointment is that this government - usually so sure-footed in managing the news should have been so cack-handed over their spinning this time"
Looks like you haven't read the comments on this or the last few threads. There is not a shred of evidence that the Scottish Government "span" this and nobody has brought forward a possible motive for their doing so. OTOH, NuLab had every reason and opportunity to spin it. You are entitled to your opinion but not to claim it as fact without evidence.
"By dividing the justice responsibility so completely from responsibility for foreign affairs, it was possible ..."
The separation of duties is no different to the the decision Straw had to make about Biggs, supposedly entirely without interference from other ministers.
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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#39 Thanks for your welcome. Maybe some sunny day when you have something more to offer other than dullard pantomime snipes and obvious SNP leafleting you can be in harmony with...well...anyone here!
Upon a days reflection I think we can cut through the SNP party activists posts here and see that in fact the entire world condemns this mans release. Grow up all you satire wavers. Most people will never wave one again on the strength of this disgrace.
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One reference in a 15 minute statement does not constitute "quasi-religious", Brian. Behave you.
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Bigsogs:
#236.
I see a wonderful mixture of ignorance arrogance in this comment. I doubt the entire world condemns the decision for multiple reasons and I would expect individuals to refrain from making political points out of a serious situation. I am embarressed by your attitude and disgusted, how dare you even suggest that party politics must become involved.
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#236 bigsogs
"the entire world condemns this mans release"
Any evidence might be useful - or are you just a "satire waver"?
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#236 bigsogs
The entire world ... that includes Libya. So lets try it again, Libya condemns this mans release. Sounds stupid? Is stupid.
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#236 bigsogs
You're welcome. You can't have read many of my posts if you think I'm a SNP activist, and my Swiss neighbours would be a little perplexed if I started putting SNP leaflets into their letterboxes. I even have to confess that I own no flags to wave of any description.
I suggest you try reading a few posts from an individual before you pigeon-hole them. Arguing your case also helps, of course.
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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@236 "Grow up all you satire wavers."
It's good to see Labour supporters embracing the old satire. I mean appointing Giggity and Skeletor to further Scotland's interests certainly showed they have a sense of irony.
On the strength of Global's performance so far, you need have no worries, Labour have already reclaimed the satire.
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I've spent a lot of time researching the whole Lockerbie issue and come to a few conclusions. Perhaps some of those who will not accept any of those supporting MacAskill might listen to me, as I'm generally not considered to be a rampant SNP supporter.
MacAskill has made the decision purely on a legal basis. I believe this now since if he had wanted to make real political capital out of it he would have kept Megrahi in prison and allowed the appeal to go ahead. This could have released evidence that some people wished to hide. It does not however mean that the evidence would be factual by any means, but I am sure there are certain issues out there which would be embarrassing to certain individuals.
The Prisoner Transfer Agreement is a total joke. Sorry dean, but this is so obvious a political stitch-up its not true. Had this been with the USA or any European country I would accept it. But the revelation that there was only one Libyan prisoner makes it rather obvious.
I still firmly believe that all three governments have had some sort of unofficial agreement on certain points. Public outrage by a government does not always reflect discussions taking place in private. That's how diplomacy works.
I still believe that Megrahi has some involvement. What exactly and to what level is unknown. There must have been some reason for him being a suspect beyond the rather flimsy witness evidence.
MacAskill still made a hash of the announcement. He should have stuck to basic facts without any political attacks. Those are for later, not for worldwide audiences, most of whom would have wondered what he was going on about. The Scottish Government is still lacking in presentation and for once they might just learn from this. He allowed Libya to break the news before he got to the point. That is embarrassing for the Scottish Government. He should have also kept any religious hints out of the speech. It is simply giving opponents an opening.
It might be a fair assumption that MacAskill ran the legal process to consider the release, but then someone screwed everything up by leaking or hinting to the press. That took the initiative right out of his hands.
The Scottish Government comes out good for following the law to the letter and not bowing to political pressure, internal and external.
Where they come out bad is how they handled the PR side. I suspect the leaks/hints to the press came from a Government source, possibly from an MSP trying to promote the SNP without any thought to the consequences. Likewise, it could have come from another source which was no doubt involved in the inter-government discussions. Both are likely but we will never know.
End result? For the SNP, perhaps no overall effect. MackAskill I think will be quietly reshuffled. He blew his presentation with the political attack on Westminster. That was neither the time or place for it. Someone less aggressive is needed, perhaps Nicola Sturgeon.
I've kept any personal feelings out of this so perhaps some people might just accept what I've written.
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Bigsogs:
#244.
I am not suggesting, I am telling you that petty political point socring should not be welcomed on such a sensitve case. Besides you have little to stand on that can actually back up your ridiculous remarks your making. It's pathetic. Please come back to the world of civilised gentlemen.
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#244 bigsogs
Labour posting at its pinnacle?
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#239 oldnat
Reading his posts reminds me of the MPFC sketch "Argument is just down the hall."
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#246 Clowns posting at the height of ignorance? Yup.
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#244 Regarding your visit to the states i am talking to a friend in Texas trying to guage public feeling. Mind you Texas is quite a hard line state so you might be ok where your going.
Seems to be a lot of new posters ... some of them not worth reading .. and no i am not a member of the SNP .... maybe next week tho .. good on you Kenny.
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#246 oldnat
It doesn't seem to be an anagram of derekbarker. It's probably because there's no one left in the Labour party for it to talk to. We'll have to humor it.
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#244 bigsogs
"If your Swiss, I am the flying Dutchman so please stop it. In terms of reading your posts. Why? They have nothing to offer but snipes as I stated already. That's an arargument for you if you like one."
Had you taken my advice, you would have learnt that I am an expat currently spending a lot of my time in Switzerland. If you think all of my posts even on this thread are "snipes" I suggest you try to improve your literacy skills. You do, indeed, now provide an argument, but at a level which would have dismayed Monty Python.
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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236. bigsogs:
"Most people will never wave one again on the strength of this disgrace."
Although I was unhappy with seeing my national flag in the hands of the pro-Megrahi mob- isnt it still a little strong to start denouncing the poor old Scottish saltire?
244. bigsogs:
"I am eembarrassed by your banal stupidity. You suggest there are no party politics involved here? What an fool you really are. You make me ill."
I think brownedovs' point is that there ought not to be any political point scoring over this issue. It is about Lockerbie, the victims, the guilt or innocence of Megrahi - not about how well you are able to represent British Labour at Mr Salmonds' expense.
245. Thomas_Porter wrote:
"I am not suggesting, I am telling you that petty political point socring should not be welcomed on such a sensitve case."
You are entirely correct Thomas. There is absolutely no room for party politics to intrude upon an already emotive issue.
It serves no practical purpose in resolving many of the core areas of disagreement- most importantly 'is Megrahi guilty' or not? Everyone knows what I think so I shan't repeat it.
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Bigsogs:
#247.
This is certainly not a topic the SNP would like to make a PR issue out of, which party would want to handle this issue because no matter what was decided it's going to blow up in your face!
"...there are no 'sensitive' cases in a politicians mind."
I see, more arrogance, "I know better." approach. I still see no evidence to help support your case. Is it more opinion then fact?
I also reccomend you look up the word civilised. It's slighlty amusing you use that word, especially as your comment was very uncivilised. However I am not suprised you go on the offensive as you really have nothing to stand on!
Now, what are you going to do? Spout more nonesense, more offense and pretend that your actually making your case well?
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#248 handclapping
Sorry re MPFC. No intention of plagiarising.
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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While we're paused in the middle of this rather serious topic for some random hilarity courtesy of our aviator from the low countries I wonder if I can share some more inane unintentional humour for anyone who might have missed it.
Alex Massie in The Spectator made some rather disparaging remarks about Hammer of the nats and some would allege total fruit loop Prof Tom Gallagher.
So far so predictable but the very best part is when in the comments section an obvious SNP supporter with the ironic user name of Glen Campbell is assumed by an irate Gallagher to be the BBC man himself.
Gallagher then gets tore in with a reply which will probably still have me chuckling two years from now. Read it and weep ( with laughter)
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#251 handclapping
I applaud your mercy! but your sense of identity is woeful.
Now! lets crack another bottle of sarsaparilla.
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#256 Thats just class ... what an ignorant twit. Wouldnt be much fun if we all posted under our real names. Roll on Monday .. i want to see Alex kick Greys a**e.
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#254 Nice to see you attempting to improve my education whilst being unable to spell a single word within your ill phrased attack. Ignorance and arrogance. You manage them both so well. Just a pity you seem unable to comprehend the meaning of either. Now try to make a point instead of being pointless eh? Your attempt to smokescreen the SNPs wish to handle this really is pathetic. It was a dream come true for Alex and his travelling circus. I have the misfortune to be living in the country ruled by these circus performers masquerading as a government. Do you?
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#258 RE anyone ? Really you are sure that the SNP are going to be knocked out next Scottish election. Is this bile because you are a) Ian Grey b) David Cameron or c) Gordon Brown. Personally i just think you are trying to provoke reactions to the shi*e you are posting. I'd call you a troll but trolls are usefull.
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While over on the NR blog, Oldnat stands accused of being a labour party
hack, well! I always thought that a bit of Mrs Oldnat would rub off on oldnat. ( all in the sense of fun oldboy)
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Bigsogs:
#258.
I was wrong about you, your certainly the comedian! If Alex Salmond is on his way out, who's on their way in? Iain Gray? Your joking, right? Earlier you mentioned I was not from Scotland, however where have you been since Iain Gray was elected leader of the Labour Party (in Scotland)? How many more rounds of First Minister's Question Time must Iain Gray go through before realising Alex Salmond is and has been running rings around the Labour leader?
Also what exactly has Iain Gray said, surrounding the decision of the lockerbie bomber? "If I were First Minister, I'd have said 'no'.." How low can Labour possibly go? It sounds as if Iain Gray was implying that if people vote Labour (and him as default) into power that the man would not be released. That's honestly cheap political points being made from those who have died from that terrorist attacks.
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I think the fact that none of the big people in the Uk government have voiced an oppinion that Megrahi should stay in jail speaks volumes...as does the fact that Prince Andrew was due to go to Libya to enhance business deals ... if Libya are so guilty why trade with them ?
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#262 derekbarker
LOL Even better, he thinks I'm part of Derek Draper's rebuttal unit!!
handclapping at #251 shouldn't even have thought of you and the troll in the same sentence other than possibly "derekbarker (even at his most pro-Labour) was an intellectual giant, rational and usually funny, compared with Labour's most recent offering."
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Even RE could not compete with bigsogs.
This guy can't even troll efficiently.......
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#266 oh well it looks like bigsocks/bigsoup is not getting to post ... must have enraged him to swear or something .... oh dear.
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#267 Neil_Small147
LOL - but you may be accused of sexism by labelling it as a "guy". On second thoughts none of the women I know would have been as crass, so you're probably right.
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#257 derek
33 from Edinburgh still into Duffy and GTA. And thinks he knows rugby. Loser.
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244. bigsogs
How dare you suggest that the Lockerbie bomb attack, and the murderer Megrahi is an issue where it is ok to play politics with!
Have you ever even met a family member of one of the victims?
Get real you sad excuse for a British Labourite.
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#268 '#267 This is your best contribution? What a fool...' ahem ..we have yet to hear your reasons for disliking the SNP so much so i wouldnt label other posters who have contributed to these posts in a big way as fools. until you post something sensible you will be just a troll...nothing more. Badmouthing people is just a sign of desperation ..that implies to me you are Ian Grey.
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#272 Dean i think you a being a bit melodramatic with this 'Have you ever even met a family member of one of the victims' I could agree with your venom if it was one of your favourite aunts or a brother or something but since (as Oldnat points out) you werent even born its a bit kneejerk. This is the same attitude the Americans have where they are right and everybody else is wrong. Gary Mckinnon should be tried here in the UK not the states like the Americans are bullying Labour (KFC variety) into handing over. If we all had your attitude the world would be a far worse place.
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#114.JRMacClure
Thank you for that.
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#256 GrassyKnollington:
I just got to your blog and the link to the piece by Tom Gallagher.
Absolutely brilliant!
I'm now going to reinvent my career; I'm going into high brow education as you obviously can get to the very pinnacles while being handicapped by complete stupidity.
If this guy is an example of cutting edge political comment, then we are all in trouble lol.
Has anyone seen the reports of George Foulkes, who has tabled a series of Parliamentary questions calculated to embarrass Sir Richard Dannatt? Nice guy George (irony). And they give Salmond and MacAskill a hard time!
If anyone was an embarrassment to Scotland, it is George Foulkes and anyone (ANYONE) who supports him and his party.
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#263 Thomas Porter
An astute answer.
Let's remember also that the option and subsequent decision to release al-Megrahi was a judicial one - not a political one.
By insisting he would do the opposite, The Grey Man is admitting that as first minster he would have interfered with a judicial decision to release him.
Iain Grey and Call Me Dave are quite the pair for sounding off after the decision was made - but nether were quick to assert what they would do before the fact. In my book - that's called poaching for goals - or being a two-faced charlatan.
Cameron of all people should have nothing to say regarding Scotland, as his party neither represents the opinions of the victims of lockerbie or those of the Scottish electorate. Devolution saw to it that Westminster can not and will not interfere with the Judiciary in Scotland - yet here he is trying his damndest to undermine the devolution he so "ardently" supports and respects. What a crock.
At least Labour at Westminster have kept thier opinions on how Scotland deals with this to themselves and not sought to score cheap points off a hard decision.
Then again - with Mandelson meeting Gaddafi's son less than a month ago - and Call me dave sniffing about the PM's knicker drawer on why the Libyan government "thanked" the Scottish Government AND the UK Government - one might ask just why Labour are staying so silent...
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sorry guys, not been able to keep up with your comments. However, this is what independence will be like. We make the decisions. Stuff Westminster.
Freedom
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#159. Anglophone
"PS: Any takers by the way for a small bet that Al Megrahi will still be alive in a years time?"
It will help to make up for the time that he has been kept against his will and proper honest justice to find the real perpetrators.
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What's all the fuss about? One terrorist and he's half dead. The boys down in Westminster let out hundreds of fit Irish terrorists out a few years ago.
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My rallying call for all tories to move back to Heathite and consensus pragmatism- less Thatcherism more MacMillan and Heathite Fabianism for the tories!!!!
http://new-right.blogspot.com/
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#281 was posted by me. I have no idea why it showed up as 'you'.
Anyway, the exposure Scotland has received recently is brilliant. Now we realise what it can be like to be an independent nation. We are on a world stage. On this issue the Americans and the Libyans need to speak to Scotland not Westminster. How refreshing is that?
Freedom
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#287 hadrianswall
They all show up as "you" if your logged in now. Means you have to start memorising your post numbers.
#285 deanthetory
"The Conservatives are destined to loose the ideological war"
Don't you mean "lose" the idealogical war?
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So, Megrahi was convicted on the basis that he was a Lybian agent carrying out a revenge mission for his government. Seems to me that if he is guilty then so are his superiors. Yet Brown and Blair meet Ghaddafi on friendly terms ?
The message is clear: don't throw too many stones Mr Gray.
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I was proud of Macaskill and the Scottish government yesterday. I didn't think his statement religious at all and I found the sincere, deliberate feel to it very apt. If it did have a sermon-like feel to it at times then I'd rather this than the slick vacuous rubbish we are so used to hearing elsewhere. I also thought he had every right to spell out the UK's predictably underhand behaviour in this case when highlighting why the Prisoner Transfer Arrangement could not be proceeded with. Beyond that I think some of the attacks on him, the SNP and even the Scots in general disgraceful. I for one am more convinced than ever that Scotland must become independent and that we can and should try to stand as a small beacon of humanity in a largely merciless world.
I also think Megrahi was innocent and that the celebrations in Libya were regrettable but to be expected. Again though this has been overplayed for political reasons in the US and UK. FTR it was 2 large Saltires and one small one, a small token thanks to Scotland perhaps but more a snub to the UK and US I feel.
Any anger I have is at the UK and US authorities who I believe have masterminded this whole debacle and who should finally come clean and release all the relevant information on this case. They won't because not only would it embarrass them it would also lead to all manner of criminal proceedings and IMO would reveal extremely dark elements at work in our security services. How do some sleep at night indeed.
Lastly, my eternal sympathies to the victims and their families left behind. I really do feel for them in their pursuit of justice for their loved ones.
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Well! folks, it seems that Oldnat has tamed another southerner and Jolo13 over on NR threads now! wants to share a flight and an active island with the wise one.
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#292 Hey Derek as long as Jolo13 doesnt want to have his babys !
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#257 derek
re 271, I owe you a route bier, it knackers the kidneys you know.
Do you think oldnat will have time between his multiple appearances to always trust the voters on quirkynats?
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#293 ubinworryinmasheep
At my age I couldn't join the Mile High Club - I couldn't even join the One Yard Club!
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Libya are already claiming that there were trade deals behind the transfer and Megrahi is saying he can prove his innocence. Westminster are denying everthing of course. I wait with bated breath.
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If you have a really strong stomach read this vicious diatribe from the former MP of my constituency, and Blair's special envoy in Iraq.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/terrorism-in-the-uk/6069329/This-SNP-stunt-has-shamed-my-nation.html
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The posturings of this Scottish Government have ceased to amuse. It is also somewhat tiresome that Mr. Gray has let the cat out of the bag. All he was required to do was maintain a decent silence for a few more days. You will understand our dilemma, given the material we have to work with.
Nevertheless, it is painfully obvious that Scotland requires a salutary demonstration of whom actually runs the country. To that end, you will be unsurprised to learn that Monday's debate in the Scottish Parliament is likely to include a Motion of No Confidence. It may be fair to say that this silly administration will be gone by Tuesday.
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298 - dream on!
I see that David Cameron is describing the decision as "mistaken" - does anyone know where he did his Scots law degree?
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brian wilson is a disgusting man.
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#298 MagisterIlluminatus
Don't worry. Help is available. Just because you bought a copy of the Daily Record at W H Smith doesn't make you a member of the Bilderberg Group, and you don't actually rule the world.
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The following is a TimesOnline exclusive:
A free and dying manstill proclaims his innocence.
Al-Megrahi promised that before he died he would present new evidence through his Scottish lawyers that would exonerate him. "My message to the British and Scottish communities is that I will put out the evidence and ask them to be the jury," he said. He refused to elaborate.
Perhaps the truth will out, eventually.
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Glad you got that reference in Oldnat, my alert was removed ( possibly because I suggested I would do something to said chap if I met him in the street!)
This is a nasty ,tedious little piece by said ex MP.
Interestingly , events dear boy, seem to have overtaken it ,
with thanks to Colonel Gaddafi , his son and Mr Megrahi.
T'would seem Libya has British interests at heart!
Gee! I'd like to be a fly on the wall wherever G Brown is at the moment.
Will Lord M have a phone at his bedside?
Will Mr Darling be capable of handling the ruffled feathers?
Exciting is'nt it?
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301.
Bilderberg Group? My, you are living in the past aren't you. The company was quite dreadful and the wine was Californian. I rememeber at the last dinner I attended they served stuffed crab covered in some gritty, tasteless mess. I remember saying to my wife, 'You think they might at least have washed the sand off.' She did not laugh, she seldom does these days.
But I think the final straw was when they burnt that 60ft. owl in front of a paying audience. A keen as a file Harvard Business School type told me it was highly symbolic. Though clearly they do not teach semiotics at Harvard. i can only assume it was highly symbolic of a badly structured, mixed metaphor.
However, it struck me that it was all becoming so terribly obvious and, dare I say, tacky. I mean when even someone like you can nameheck them. Says it all really.
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Brian - would you care to redo your piece in the light of the crowds in tripoli and the flags they were waving?
What a mistake by the SNP - they are out of their depth dealing with such international affairs like this...
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298. MagisterIlluminatus
A motion of no ocnfidence? Well that is interesting.. hadn't anticipated that.
Well we shall see how 'unreliant' the SNP are on my party (given the attitudes of some bloggers here)- if the vote does come.
How many people here and elsewhere on the internet protested that the SNP administration is not dependent upon Scottish Conservative support? The budget bill....and now perhaps a motion of no confidence...but who will be first minister in post SNP Scottish politics?
Off to work now. Back in eight hours. Keep responces clean if anything.
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Grassy , thanks for starting my day with a bigger laugh than Gaddafi and Gaddafi did!
For those of you who don't know the haverer - Tom Gallagher is professor of ethnic conflict and peace at the University of Bradford and a research fellow at the National Endowment for Democracy in Washington DC
Or at least he was in 2008.
Doncha just love it?
Aman who could start an argument in an empty hoose is a Prof of ethnic conflict and peace !
And he never stops accusing the SNP and Mr Salmond in particular of cosying up to countries of which he disapproves!
Now one might have thought that to be a prof of anything " ethnic" one might need a sympathetic and empathetic approach to all things " ethnic" and even extend the hand of friendship!
He seems to be prolific in his " sounding off " against the Scottish Government , he was blogging on other sites too.
Granted none as funny as the Spectator.
Glen Campbell was priceless!
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Did anyone see Brian Cox (that great Dundee actor, he might be even greater if I knew which team he supports.) on the 'One show' yesterday? He said that he had done a television programme years ago about the Lockerbie incident and was convinced that Megrahi was innocent; much to the shock of presenters.
I also noticed that when they did a piece on the disgusting drunken behaviour of the 'British' abroad (I believe it was on some Greek Isle) that the offenders were 'British' but one of the 'British', who was in jail awaiting trial, was 'Scottish'. So, you have to ask yourself why they chose to use the term 'Scottish' to relate to one of the 'British' but never used the word 'English' or 'Welsh' or even Northern Irish? Strange that.
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# 283 rochcarlie
Good point.
# 218 Blind_Captain
Chance would be a fine thing if governments adopted a justice system that was immune from the deliberations of international business deals.
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# Magister Illuminatus
I will await your abject apologies on Tuesday with considerable anticipation.
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# 310 sneckedagain
Don't hold your breath for that one.
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#305
NewjohnnyH
Saw those pictures. Enjoyed them. Will have done Scotland a huge service in many places around the world. Have a friend who worked in the University in Tripoli. Gaddafi(yes,Gaddafi)told him the Libyans liked the Scots but not the British.
This one will play for some time. The only winners in the long term will be the Scottish Government.
Thankfully there is a growing awareness that Megrahi was innocent and the more this becomes apparent the more the tables will be turned on this issue. The final casualty will be the "Scottish"(sic)Labour Party whose crass and opportunistic intervention from their leader yesterday shames him and the movement he purports to represent. His appearance on TV yesterday was like a "knife through the heart" (not my words)to two long term but now disgusted and probably finally disaffected Labour members I know.
I am perfectly happy for the SNP to continue to pick up the support of all intelligent and decent opinion on this matter.
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The Independent carries a good article by Robert Fisk.
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"Devolution in the wrong hands was always going to be an instrument for dividing the United Kingdom rather than maintaining it."
A little quote from the democratic Brian Wilson.
I do hope someone has the nous to ask him to explain that.
Judging by the rest of the pice I have to assume that the wrong hands to which he refers are the hands of the SNP.
I wonder if the " wrong hands " in England would be those of UKIP , the English Democrats or even the BNP, or perhaps its just the Conservatives.
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I looked at the Daily Record today (I know I shouldn't!). In the letters page there are 8 letters. They are all from 'ashamed to be scots' etc who all have a go at the SNP government. The Record don't bother to publish one letter of support! What you come to expect I suppose.
Freedom
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#298 MagisterIlluminatus I believe that a vote of no confidence would mean a change of people in charge. Since Ian Grey has been shown to be next to useless who do you suggest for First Minister.
#308 Gedguy2 ... Brian Cox is one mighty fine actor and i would say has probably been in more big films than Sean Connery now. I didnt see the program he was on but its good that he has put forward his view on Lockerbie.
The unionist papers are full of how bad Kenny is ... give it a till Monday they will be more interested in the new series of X Factor.
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This is the official stance of the Libyan government though its official news website jananews and here is aljazeera
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# 316 ubinworryinmasheep
Here is the link to the One show
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Well folks this whole business has been Scotland's entry to the murky world of real politics.
As for those who moan about "justice" I'm afraid justice is always either winners justice or rich/powerful man's justice.
Was Claus von Stauffenberg who tried to kill Hitler a criminal or a hero?
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318 Gedguy2 ..thanks for that. I hope Brian Coxs view will make some people think about the whole issue in a different light. Maybe Gloria Hunniford should ask some of her 'Angels' snigger snigger.
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#316 ubinworryinmasheep
Despite his pontificating style, #298 MagisterIlluminatus may have a point about Labour(?) putting down a vote of no confidence on Monday.
They might do so on the expectation that the Megrahi decision will be so unpopular that they would be seen as "the saviours of Scotland" instead of making a naked grab for power.
An interesting speculation!
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#321 oldnat i suppose it depends on whether Labour have been talking to the Lib Dems again. Are Labour so desperate that they would risk the wrath of the voters come the next election. Such a move might loose them a lot more votes. It would be interesting to know how the majority of Scots feel about Megrahis release and i dont mean what the papers are telling us.
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I don't see a 'vote of no confidence' occuring. The decision was not normal politics and I don't believe Kenny MacAskill has done something apart from doing the opposite of what Iain Gray would have done. Is that enough to bring in a 'vote of no confidence'?
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Interesting analysis by "Morus" over on politicalbetting.com
"Why did the SNP play along in the Labour/Gadaffi deal? Because they didn’t have a choice.
Both Labour/UK Gvt and the SNP/Scottish Gvt wanted to be able to release Magrahi, because there are benefits to having Gadaffi onside (not least that it makes Shell and BP very happy) and they are two of the titans of British industry, not to mention a substantial portion of Scottish GDP since the collapse of RBS and HBoS.
However, whilst both wanted to be accommodating, neither wanted to piss of the Americans. The release of Magrahi, as a matter of foriegn policy (under the purview of the British government) was intractable. The UK government explains that they cannot release him back to Libya becayuse of the American response, and the Scottish government can hide behind “not our decision - in the absence of a Treaty, this is a Foreign policy matter”. That was the status quo.
A solution is found. Although Magrahi is the only Libyan in British jail, a Treaty is signed between the UK government and Libya, allowing the transfer of prisoners. The Scots see that they are being lumbered with the decision and fight to either stop the treaty, or make an exception for al Megrahi (even though he was the point of the deal, so that would never have worked, but they need to demonstrate that they didn’t want the decision, so they remind the world when he was released that their calls for an exemption were turned down by Westminster).
The PTD (Prisoner Tranfer Deal) is astonishing - and bothered lots of people, because they treated it at face value. Were we going to send prisoners back to Libya with no oversight, no human rights guarantees etc etc? This seemed horrific, like a means to have terror suspects tortured without getting our hands dirty. plenty of people requested slowing down ratification, but the UK gvt said there were ‘exceptional circumstances’ for not delaying. They needed to force the decision into MacAskill’s hands quiclkly, so Megrahi could be released before he died.
The British govenment, having signed a general prisoner transfer deal with Libya, then washes its hands of the decision, because it is no longer a Foreign Office issue (UK responsibility) but a devolved Justicial matter for the SNP. Gadaffi sees this, and is delighted with the UK government, because they have helped free Megrahi (by rushing the PTD through Parliament) but without attracting attention.
How can Gadaffi and the UK government guarantee the ‘right’ decision from MacAskill? Surely he must be annoyed with them, and wouldn’t he side with the Americans to spite them? No, never.
The British government are strong enough to resist the demands of Libya, and their corporate allies in the oil industry. Scotland simply isn’t - about 50% of GDP is public sector, and the only big private industries are oil/gas, financial services (now in trouble) and tourism. In that sort of climate, you cannot afford to piss off Shell and BP for the sake of being liked by America (where will the Americans be when Shell and BP lay off thousands and scale back on the North Sea).
But MacAskill knows that he’s been played into the corner. He has to release Magrahi and keep Gadaffi happy, but he decides to snub the UK government by refusing the application under the Prisoner Transfer Deal, and acts within his own power of compassionate release, in the hope of making a virtue out of it. The Brits and Libyans don’t really care, except for his attacking the UK government in his press conference, but it makes him feel a little better, and as though he were acting autonomously."
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# 321 oldnat
I'm not too sure if Labour would want to take the chance of being defeated again by AS. If Labour did demand the vote and they lost then we might see another new Labour leader in Scotland. How many Labour leaders then would have fallen under the AS sword?
# 320 ubinworryinmasheep
Did you see the article about the Brits abroad? I counted the use of the words Brit/British=12, Scottish=1, English=0, Welsh=0 and Northern Irish=0. Obviously it's only the Scottish Brits that get into trouble.
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No they haven't been talking to the Lib Dems. Consider this, who ever heard of a Lib Dem being capable of delivering the coup de grace?
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#323 TP
What do Labour have to lose by pushing for a vote of no confidence?
They are on a hiding to nothing down south just now and are dreading the thought of the independence referendum bill in November. Couple that with the prospect of facing the Scottish electorate again in 2011 with a Tory government down south and there might just be something in it...
They probably have the best chance that they are going to have just now, ironically enough, not because of something that the SNP have done wrong, but because of Events....
Emotions are running high
Personally, I think this week's announcement will reflect well on the SNP and if Labour do push for a NC vote then it could backfire spectacularly...
Iain Grey for FM anyone?
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#323 Thomas, its easy for Ian Grey to say what he would have done as he would never be in that situation. Gordon Brown would have backed him up instead of remaining quiet but of course he wouldn't help the SNP administration hence not a word on the info Kenny needed about a prisoner transfer. Unfortunatly for the Scottish Labour leader every time i see him on FM questions he reminds me on Dougal from Father Ted .... 'these cows are small ..those cows are FAR away' lol
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326 The current Lib Dems are like hyenas attacking in packs ... who's ever been savaged by a Tavish Scott ? I remember the Lib Dems of old and probably would have voted for them then ... but for the desire for freedom.
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#320 No i didnt watch that part. I will take your word for it in case it starts to make my blood boil.
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#327 gavinahill
Re a no confidence motion, I accept it's possible and also accept the SNP could well lose it. The $64,000 question then becomes: Could Mr Gray win a vote to become FM? If he cannot, and I can't see Aunty Bella and her chums voting for him, then there have to be new SP elections. Do you really think "Scottish Labour" want those, even if they play - utterly duplicitously - the "we wouldn't have released him" card?
#328 ubinworryinmasheep
Shame on you! Dougal from Father Ted was an intellectual giant compared to Mr Gray, not to mention a better orator. Dougal from The Magic Roundabout was likewise superior in both respects.
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Compassionate? Huh. Drop the appeal, which will show the world the level of crooked duplicity of the UK & US governments in conspiring to hide the truth about a terrorist act, (Which rather spoils the diet of sanctimonious anti-terrorist talk that is the current lingua franca), and you can go free.
Appeal dropped, Magrahi freed. Horse trading, not compassion. In order for there to be a proper conclusion - finding the truth for relatives of the victims, and examining the active corruption of the justice system - there requires to be a full, neutral investigation (no enquiries chaired by the good, great and compliant)into the Lockerbie terrorist bombing and the subsequent actions of both US & UK governments.
The only "Higher Power" in all this is the over riding interest of both the UK & US Governments to not find (or admit to knowing)) the real perpetrators of the Lockerbie bombing. Mr McAskill would be better taking acting lessons before his next 'sincere' appearance.
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Does anyone seriously think a Labour administration at Holyrood would have made a different decision? Bet they're relieved they didn't have to make it though. They get to assume the moral high ground and stick the knife into the SNP at the same time. Trebles all round!
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Re 312 Snecked again.
If you think the pictures beamed around the world showing the Saltire and Libyan flags being used to honour a terrorist convicted of 270 murders then you are barking mad.
I work with Americans, they are absolutely disgusted with the issue. Their feelings run very deep on this issue, this has done immeasurable damage to Scotland in the States. It will also do damage across the world, it is a truly awful image for right minded people.
I cannot believe that anyone would have enjoyed these pictures. Have you no thought for Magrahi's victims?
You refer to a growing awareness of Magrahi's innocence? I think not. He has withdrawn his appeal. He is convicted and remains so. That would not be a factor for compassionate release, we cannot have politicians deciding guilt or innocence, even SNP politicians.
Your post is bordering on being offensive. The decision should have given consideration to the public interest, which has not been served by the disgusting spectacle seen in Libya. Terrorism is something that nearly stuck in Scotland at Glasgow Airport, cosying up to a nation that regularly executes people without trial won't stop us from being a target. You should really reflect on your words. I am disgusted that any Scot would find Magrahi's Heroes welcome something to enjoy.
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# Twas a good week to bury bad news ... but i caught a little story about the NHS. Apparently Dave loves the NHS so much that more of it should be opened up to private business. There was me thinking it might be because of profit issues with private contractors that may have led to poorer cleaning standards in our hospitals.
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Re 324 Oldnat
You can dress up Kenny Mackaskill's decision any way you like, but the facts are plain for all to see. He could have easily said no. But he didn't.
He also tried as hard as he could to pass the blame for the decision to anyone possible, in this life or another. That really was the most odious part of the announcement. It showed someone that lacked the backbone to accept the consequence's of his actions.
I fully expected the Ultra nats on this blog to rally round and try to scrape some positives form this mess, but in reality the justice secretary looks like a buffoon.
I hope the debate on Monday is carried out with some dignity, although I doubt if it will. Everyone should remember that the bottom line here is 270 innocent people died at Magrahi's hands. You don't have to look far for evidence that Libya remains a state that pays scant note of human rights, Scotland has helped to legitimise this regime.
While this was always going to be a difficult decision, one few would have wanted to make the whole sorry mess has been very badly handled by a minister that is just not up to it.
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#334 You are in jail for something you have not done and you have an appeal against your dodgy conviction. You also have cancer and may die in the next 3 months. Do you a) go for the appeal knowing the powers who be will stall in the hope you croak ? or b) throw in the towel, go home and see your family and try to keep your fight going ? Personally i would go for b and since Gadaffi is keen to clear his countrys name as well i would think they will be paying the lawyers in Scotland to fight the case.
Americans ... i spoke to one in Texas last night, thanks to the joys of yahoo messenger and she said he should stay there and do his time. I told her i thought he was innocent and pointed her in the right direction. Being that she had been in prison herself she wanted to find out the truth for herself. Dont be so naive to believe that all Americans believe what they read in the press... some just need a educating on the truth.
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#336 'You don't have to look far for evidence that Libya remains a state that pays scant note of human rights, Scotland has helped to legitimise this regime.'
Oh ... What about Turkey and Iraq ... both countries that were/are allies of the USA and UK when it suits our needs. Both are countrys that have/had bad human rights records. Dont get me started on Saudi Arabia.
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#336 northhighlander
1. The article I quoted is not from an SNP source - but a political commentator who was trying to work out the inter-governmental complexities that most assume are there. Only the most naive imagine that politicians of any party only look at issues in simple terms.
2. You disagree with release on compassionate grounds. I agree with the decision - as I would have had it been any other party in Government. We have different moral stances. I don't criticise yours.
3. You present no argument as to why MacAskill "is just not up to it. " Just because he took a decision that you would have made differently does not make him incompetent.
4. Libya's bad record on human rights should not mean that we apply their standards to Libyans as well.
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331.
Oh I don't know about that. Prime Minister Cameron in Downing Street, First Minister Gray in Bute House. Seems to me that has quite a nice ring to it. I really can't see the First Minister standing up to a Prime Minister with a hundred seat majority and the ability to pull the plug on the Barnett Formula at a moment's notice. They'll likely get on famously after the First Minister has taken his daily instructions from Ms. Goldie.
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NorthHighlander:
336.
Did Megrahi qaulify for compassionate release? Yes, or no? How can Kenny Mackaskill backtrack on Scots Law? However I will agree MacKaskill's speach was all over the place. I felt that MacKaskill was attempting to please too many people (Americans, very religous). I am certainly not an Ultra Nat as I would prefer to hang most people (including Megrahi after his appeal).
I am also slightly disappointed that you feel Megrahi was the responsible for 270 deaths. Although I am not suggesting Megrahi was innocent, Megrahi was certainly not the sole person behind these attacks and didn't plan the attacks and fund the attacks independently of all sources. Your chasing a dying old man when we still have no clue who was actually involved and why!
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#332 tacketyboots
"Compassionate? Huh. Drop the appeal, ... , and you can go free."
You misrepresent the facts there. Dropping the appeal was indeed necessary to apply for the "dodgy" transfer deal cooked up by Bliar and pushed through the House of Cards by Duff Gordon.
The compassionate grounds release required no such dropping and was implemented by Major's Tories.
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#256 GrassyKnollington, #259 ubinworryinmasheep,
The Glen Campbell on Alex Massie's Spectator blog (here) wasn't using an ironic user name. I know this because I am the aforementioned poster and I've just double-checked my identity by looking at my birth certificate. Yep. Confirmed. Glen Campbell is my real name. Normally on blogs and such I'll use the name G. Campbell so as not to confuse the hard of thinking.
Names can cause a lot of mix-ups. Tom Gallagher knows this and occasionally posts on The Scotsman website using the name "patriot not nat". I deduced this after noticing the similarity in writing styles when he was defending a typically rotten opinion piece by the none-more-like-minded David Maddox. This is why I referred to the professor in The Spectator blog as Tom "patriot not nat" Gallagher. Trap set, the Nat basher walked straight into it.
"So I've drawn some blood and Glenn exposes my sobriquet in the Scotsman. Any Deep Throat in the more inquisitive sections of the Scottish media ought to watch their step when he's around," said Tom . Of course, Glenn with two Ns Campbell was probably down the pub flicking through his Jim Murphy photo scrapbook and would have been none-the-wiser that his indifferent name was being dragged through the mud by a leading academic type bloke.
Cripes. I dare to think what would have happened if Glenn had found out he was being accused of having Scot Nat sympathies. Perhaps he carries a stress ball or has a copy of the SNP manifesto to hand (pre-scored by Iain Gray, natch) when nasty situations like this come to a head. Anger can be such a destructive emotion. Just look at the damage caused by Jackie Bird's SNP frown. Anwyay, I think we can all agree that Paul Hutcheon has got nothin' on my tip-top investigative skills.
Wrapping up, the moral of the story most certainly appears to be: never use your real name on the Internet. After all, if Tom Gallagher used his proper name in The Scotsman comments section readers might confuse his apocalyptic visions of an independent Scottish terror state with work produced by the esteemed professor of peace studies at Bradford University. Alas, that would be impossible as the respected academic no longer exists. Hyde has routed Jekyll. Sanity has been defeated by insanity. All that remains of the good professor is a paranoid conspiracy theorist with delusions of saving England from the hordes of Islamist kilted warriors lining up on its northern border. No wonder the kids aren't all right.
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Northhighlander
From the inscrutibility of the original case, through the crass hypocrisy of those in London and Washington who have their eyes on a Libyan 'bonanza', to the self-serving duplicity of UK unionist politicians, the only thing "plain for all to see" is that the self opponents of the Scottish Government are seeking to maximise political capital from this issue, in the full knowledge that Kenny MacAskill has made a principled and in courageous decision in the most impossible of circumstances - a decision which, in the end, benefits their (London & Washington's) own political ends, but which they are too pathetic and cowardly to acknowledge.
And there is little value in the false 'hope' that the planned Holyrood backlash - which is exactly what will be attempted - will be in any way "dignified", when we are all more than familiar with the schoolboy mentality and insular modus-operandi of Iain Gray and his little helpers.
Shame on all those who seek to twist this grave issue for desperate political brownie points.
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I might upset everyon here!
northighlander
I don't agree that Macaskill is "not up to it" in terms of doing the job of Justice Secretary. What he certainly is not up to is appearing statesmanlike in front of the world.
The FBI Director is now criticising the decision. That is significant.
Gadaffi is at it again, thanking Gordon Brown for his help in "persuading" the Scottish Goverment. That makes Libya look good in the Middle East at least, and has both Westminister and Holyrood on the defensive here, since neither can blame the other for that particular statement.
browndove
Has compassionate release not always been available? Just asking not having a go at your post.
#341 Thomas Porter
That post sums things up perfectly.
#335
Cameron's colleagues are already doing a splendid job in attracting attention to that, following whatsisname slagging the NHS off.
#333
Unfortunately that's politics. Whoever is in power is responsible, and opposition parties love a controversial issue.
#329
Lib Dems are hyenas? More like hamsters. Look cute and cuddly, stuff themselves with as much as possible, bite the hand that feeds them and then die young.
This might not be the time or place, but only in Glasgow do you give an ex-prisoner as his first civilian clothes a white tracksuit complete with baseball cap. All that was missing was the bottle of Buckie.......
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#336.northhighlander
"Everyone should remember that the bottom line here is 270 innocent people died at Magrahi's hands. You don't have to look far for evidence that Libya remains a state that pays scant note of human rights, Scotland has helped to legitimise this regime."
Robert Fisk: Do you know the truth about Lockerbie?
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And now the Director of the FBI parking his tanks on our lawn. Curiouser and curiouser. Why should the Democrats be so exercised by this? Hilary, 7 Senators and the Director of the FBI. (Apologies to Lehrer T) 'blah, blah, I was a prosecutor blah blah convicted by jury blah', he was there and he didn't notice that there wasn't a jury?
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Was your comment really directed at my #331?
If so, do you mean that NuLab really do want early SP elections? Or will Aunty Bella give Mr Gray the kind of "support" Peter Brough gave Archie Andrews? Or perhaps you just value his skills as an orator to stand up to nice Mr C?
If not, your post is another very good reason why it's a good idea to post the moniker as well as the number in any reply.
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Brownedov
ComRes have a UK poll coming out tomorrow.
I've never looked at its weighting factors for Scottish sample. Any knowledge iof it?
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re 341
I don't for one minute think he acted alone. However he didn't need to drop his appeal, he could be released on compassionate grounds without dropping his appeal.
He chose not to try and clear his name.
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#345 Neil_Small147
"Has compassionate release not always been available?"
Good question. The straight answer is that I don't know but would have thought so. What I have checked and can confirm is oldnat's #199 on the equivalent NR thread that the Prisoners and Criminal Proceedings (Scotland) Act 1993 codifies and formalises the process.
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348.
Oh that is very good, Peter Brough and Archie Andrews, I do wish I had thought of that. Yes, it would appear you have got the nature of the relationship spot on. As for an election, why would we need one? A majority coalition takes over from a minority administration. Q.E.D.
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NorthHighlander:
#350.
If Megrahi is dying, why should his last days be spent fighting an appeal? He has promised evidence that shows his innocence, I can't expect more then that from a man who may be dead in the months ahead. The last court case was flawed heavily against Megrahi, hence why we still are unclear about who else was involved and why... Megrahi (if innocent) may have been afraid of loosing the appeal against a system that wanted him to loose.
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#349 oldnat
Last time ComRes ended up with a Scottish sample of 54 voters or a 13.34% margin of error.
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345 Neil .. actually the way he was dressed reminded me on Gary Glitter when he came back to the UK.
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Have a read of the letter from the FBI Director to the Justice Secretary.
Pretty strong stuff.
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#356 Neil ... having just read that letter from the FBI's own press release website (since you didnt provide a link) i have to ask this question ... is the guy after an Oscar ? I am sure Kenny McAskill remembers the events and all the small details .. like teddy bears and kids dolls strewn about the countryside...get the FBI director a box of Kleenex before its to late !
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see the usual nat bunch have got in their usual we'll support any old tripe that the nat head office say.
how many other prisomers have been released on so called compassionate grounds. according to one report, there has been 7 requests recently, all turned down. where was the compassion for them? i dont think there are any other people in scots prisons for murdering 270 people.
will such as robert mone be released if he develops a terminal illness?
i felt it to be absolutely disgraceful that cancer was put into a religious context. sorry, god is punishing you by giving you cancer, its not a disease.
how many times does mckaskil have to behave like a buffoon before he is removed from the office he is not fit to hold.
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"Mr Megrahi is now facing the judgement of a higher power. It is inevitable, irrevocable, unavoidable. He is going to die"
I have just focused on this curious phrase of Mr MacAskil. I have to say that although it is a poor decision for him to have said it (it is very open to misinterpretation, delibrate or otherwise) - his intended point is simple. ]
Megrahi will die within months anyway, so why the fuss about releasing him so close to his inevitable death?
Fair point. However I was reading the Herald today and on the editorial letters page someone wrote "when a person commits mass murder he gives up his right to access compassion".
I have to agree with the contributor to the Herald, they do in my personal judgement. BUT isn't it more noble to demonstrate compassion (afterall vengence comes so easily, but compassion/mercy is 'divine')?
Yes. Mercy is more noble. And compassion surely could have been demonstrated by Mr MacAskil by means other than "compassionate release". What about house arrest in the UK (house arrest in Libya would have been impossible.)?
I expect to see Mr Gray jump on this phrase on Monday when the 'justice' minister is to explain himself before an angery parliament.
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re 353 Thomas
The appeal could go on after his death. If he really was innocent why not continue his appeal?
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#336 "Everyone should remember that the bottom line here is 270 innocent people died at Magrahi's hands. You don't have to look far for evidence that Libya remains a state that pays scant note of human rights, Scotland has helped to legitimise this regime."
I would not disagree with you for one minute that the bottom line is the death of the 270 passengers, but the ligitimisation of the Libyan regime began back in the late 90's when Libya asked to come in from the cold and Megrahi was sacrificed as the 'spy' who would help them.
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#345 Neil_Small147
Re prisoner release. Prior to 1993, the SoS was able to exercise the royal prerogative of mercy, but this was unacceptable within the European Convention of Human Rights. So the Tories rewrote the rules on this (ensuring the Parole Board must be consulted etc) 1n 1993. They were largely based on the Kincraig Report .
Ian Lang said at the time "There will be consultation with the parole board about any proposal for compassionate release, provided time allows, but this will be designed to assist the Secretary of State to address the public risk."
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#358 kenstor
I don't know where you get your reports. There have been 30 requests for release on compassionate grounds in Scotland over the last decade, 23 of which were approved. The 7 not approved were on the basis that the prisoner was still a threat to the public.
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re 351
The image being peddled by the SNP is that this is a formal process that has a number of statutory consultees and if they all agree then the prisoner is released. Not so it seems
I read today that on 7 previous occasions compassionate release has been refused. So Kenny could have easily said no.
he chose not to. I do defend his right to make the choice, but commented before hand I thought the correct action would have been to refuse release.
The resultant fiasco would indicate that this was right. Magrahi is now a Hero, we gave terrorists a huge victory. That can never be right.
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#349 oldnat
Re ComRes, I've looked at the last few PDFs I had downloaded and they don't post details on them. Their website has a descriptive page on their weighting here, which is silent on regional weighting.
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ComRes UK poll
http://www.comres.co.uk/page1901054041.aspx
Con 41% (-1)
Lab 24% (-)
LD 18% (-)
Other 16% (-)
Scottish sample still very small at a weighted base of 71 but
SNP 25%
Lab 25%
Con 41%
LD 11%
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I'm flittin' today; I'm so tired humping furniture around and debating the best way to carry the wardrobe up the stairs; those of you not from Scotland, flittin' means moving house. I'm now resident in Beauly!
But we're not sleeping in the new house tonight as Saturday flittin's not long for sittin'
Anyway - I'm getting angry. I've been listening to cheap soundbites, while in the van, from UK politicians having a go at the Scottish Government. Now the FBI is pitching in; probably for a US audience. And the Prime Minister of the UK is extremley quiet. It's all a mess, at least it appears to be disjointed in execution.
I can't help thinking that various persons and political parties are taking advantage for cheap tricks.
I'm very disppointed in non SNP politicians in Scotland; this affair crosses party boundaries. The application of Scots law is under threat here. I believe that Scots politicians should be supportive and not critical at this point in time.
What happened to consensus politics in Scotland?
Instead we have short sighted Scottish politicians creating divisions within our society; at the expense of unity, for petty party point scoring. And it makes me angry. Bit of advice to politicians; don't fan the flames.
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Correction to my #366
After weeighting for turnout, The Scottish sample drops to 58
Lab 30%
SNP 28%
Con 23%
LD 13%
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Re 344 Dougie-Dubh
The events of the past week or so show the SNP behaviour to be no better than any other party. They spun this story, lost control and look weak and ridiculous.
I hope the debate remembers the victims and looks to learn lessons from this fiasco. I doubt it though. AS will be every bit as petty and vindicate as any other politician.
Any moral high ground the SNP might have tried to adopt has been swept away by the last week or so. they are no different.
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NorthHighlander:
#360.
"The appeal could go on after his death. If he really was innocent why not continue his appeal?"
You can't honestly pretend that the court case before to convict Megrahi answered all the questions and passed without doubt.. The Americans would persue this and maybe even the British Government, or face international embarressment if the appeal went to his favour!
He does not have not to have an official appeal. Megrahi must present us with evidence that puts him in the clear. It's information we need, I couldn't care less about Megrahi but we all need to know what, why, how etc all this happened.
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#352 MagisterIlluminatus
"As for an election, why would we need one? A majority coalition takes over from a minority administration. Q.E.D."
So are you predicting a pro-Calman unionist coalition or just a repeat of the previous Lab-LD coalition nodded through by the Tories?
It really would be appreciated if you would quote the moniker along with the number when referring to others' post, as well as making a reply more likely.
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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#364 northhighlander
The details of the 30 applications for compassionate release are kept private, but why are you assuming that the Parole Board etc recommended the Minister to release them?
From the beginning of this procedure, the assessment of public risk has been one of the most important factors to be taken.
Fairly obviously a prisoner with a compulsive desire to rape and murder can be a risk to the public even in their last 3 months.
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#371 Brownedov
He does not do replies. We are told. End of.
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The first sentence of my #372 should have read -
The details of the 30 applications for compassionate release are kept private, but why are you assuming that the Parole Board etc recommended the Minister to release the 7 which were refused?
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368. oldnat
Cheers for that oldnat- I do love my polling data!
The last UK Scottish sample showed SNP 23% Scottish Conservative 21%- on a larger sample. This one shows SC- 23% SNP-28%
The obvious points of lack of reliability etc etc all taken and understood-
i. the Conservatives appear stuck somewhere between 16-23% (I'd place us at 19/20% optimistically).
ii. this sample at least does a better job at representing realistic SNP strength, they are almost certainly at least on 27% (but far more likely on 29%- which is the Electoral Calc. average since the last GE).
I ignore the Labour figure because I simply can't accept that 0% of Scots are brainless enough to find Mr Brown and Mr Grey a dynamic pairing.
Further evidence of a coming Liberal meltdown in Scotland as their electoral calc ave is 12.9%.
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#368 oldnat
Remembering that it will have an error of around 13%, based on Scottish voting patterns then a GE result would be
Con 2
Lab 44
SNP 13
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my sentence 375 "I ignore the Labour figure because I simply can't accept that 0% of Scots are brainless enough to find Mr Brown and Mr Grey a dynamic pairing."
should have read 30% sorry
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#369. northhighlander
"They spun this story, lost control and look weak and ridiculous."
You keep coming back to relive your old assertions, could you post a link to verify once and for all.
Try asking Alan Cochrane Lockerbie bomber: Blame Megrahi's release on London, not Edinburgh
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#376
So where did the 12 LibDems go? 7 SNP, 4 Lab, 1 Con.
The times they are a changing, and how!
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#376 handclapping
I think you are ignoring the regionalism of the Scottish voting pattern.
I really can't see the LDs collapsing like that!
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#377 deanthetory
Your first version was funnier coming from a Tory!
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#356 Neil_Small147
Yes, I read the letter - very very strong stuff.
I'm not convinced however - the Iranians ranted and raved in the same fashion when the USS Vincensse shot down Iran Air Flight 655 - did anyone in the west really care? The Americans commended the crew for bravery for heavens sake - is that not worse than throwing up the bunting for a man Libya believes was a sacrificial lamb in a game of international cluedo?
Mueller has no right to criticise our country or our politicians - he paints a tragic picture of syracuse teenagers and businessmen dying horrifically - of the emergency services struggling through the carnage around lockerbie.
Tell me, why do Americans expect the world to listen to thier impassioned words regarding "fairness" and "justice" - America doesn't know the meaning of these words. All it knows is the selfishness of it's own heart. How many innocents has America killed or tortured and failed to bring those responsible to book? Vietnam, Korea, Iraq, Afghanistan, Chile, Panama, Cuba, Iran, Japan... I could go on all day.
No, Mueller is a charlatan who's words of indignance do not identify with the true character of his country. His letter is as hypocritical as his and America's belief that it is the face of freedom and justice in this world.
What Kenny macaskill did - I do not agree with - but I'll be damned if I let this pharisee come "guardian of truth & justice" depict himself and his nation as whiter than white.
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#380 oldnat
When you tot up all the votes, the LibDems come out with 14.5% despite the 13% input. 4 SNP and 1 Lab gains from them are marginal. It's the Torys, if anyone, who suffer with a 21% outturn.
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Anyone read Mr Cochrane this evening?
Apart from the usual digs , he has actually sided with the Justice Ministers decision.
I wish he had outlined , in very simple terms, Scots Law and the reasons for release.
The banjo players are getting me down and not just the American ones.
I find it quite strange that the Telegraph feels obliged to headline with the FBI guys drivellings .
Must say I love the BBC photo of him , he reminds me of an American comedy actor who's name escapes me.
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The weighted scrum coming to a parliament near you on Monday!
Maybe Ali G' will open the debate with something like, Is It cos the Scottish secretary done the right thing.
Then the rest of the backbenchers can whisper between themselves, was it the right thing, was it legal, doh! who recalled parliament.
Seriously disconnected stuff! politicians......where are the positives?.
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#368 oldnat
Thanks for the link and the numbers. It's a tiny sample, but at least you can get some idea of the weightings of their Table 6 by comparing it to Table 3 [All respondents saying 5-10 likely to vote]:
Party, T3, T6
Lab, 25%, 30%
SNP, 25%, 28%
Con, 20%, 23%
LD, 11%, 13%
Other, 4%, 5%
DK, 4%, n/a
Refused, 11%, n/a
The poll is out of date anyway, since polling ended on the 20th and there must have been some changes as a result of the prisoner release issue. Obviously, if the BBC and the tabloids have their way, it will be against the SNP but I would not care to guess where they might go. I'm not personally convinced that will be the result but time will tell.
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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# derek
They both share po.iti in the first six letters?
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#386 Brownedov
If we use the unweighted figures we get a C 2: L 40: D 1: S 16 result.
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What I find extremely puzzling is the BBC Reporting of this Scottish Judicial episode.
3 days ago the BBC News Web page ran a Headline story Reporting on the views of a number of US Senators inc. Edward Kennedy who along with the others expressed outrage that the Libyan might be freed; not only that, the BBC invited Comments from us, the readers' on one of their special Web-pages.
Strangely, although the BBC always shows a list of previous Articles relevant to a topic the Report on the Senators' views has disappeared entirely and all the Readers Comments with it!?
Now it may just an unfortunate oversight, but, it may also be one of those 'technical' glitches so beloved of BBC HYS Moderators whenever the BBC's Political Correctness barometer is getting overrun by the views of the average British BBC License Fee Payer by whom the BBC has sadly and disastrously not been represented for many a long year.
In this case I suspect the BBC's long-standing Editorial decision to create or turn 'news' according to its own media-interest agenda in which it tries to play both ends against the middle, i.e. pro-EU and pro-USA, has come under considerable pressure. Scotland and Britons in general just have not followed this unhealthy and unhelpful line because they recognise hypocrisy when they hear and see it: In particular the American brand as pronounced by Senator Kennedy and the FBI Director who clearly are more used to the short memory of their electorate and not the British 30 year 'Irish Troubles' (inc. both sides in the 6 counties) experience and understanding of 'terrorism' and the American rejection of its effects on the UK and Eire.
Same old yanks and regrettably same old BBC: Instead of following the real story they both adjust it to suit their purposes. In this Libyan case, once a terrorist always a terrorist, though had no Americans been on board or 9/11 not occured, he may have found himself an honoured guest at the Oval Office alongside prominent IRA members!
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http://iaindale.blogspot.com/2009/08/that-mandelsongadaffi-conversation-in.html
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Me thinks the outrage from FBI chappie is nothing more than political hypocrisy.
US Libya trade relations, http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/01/02/AR2008010202832.html
draw your own conclusions
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Interesting
More is coming out now
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article6806466.ece
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re the Times article - I wonder if anyone in London told Iain Gray that the UK Minister wrote to MacAskill "I hope on this basis you will now feel able to consider the Libyan application in accordance with the provisions of the prisoner transfer agreement."
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#378 cynicalHighlander
Many thanks for the link to the Cochrane article. Well worth a read. In fact you should take another look yourself at the comment posted at 9:14 PM by one "Tom Gallagher".
Not sure whether it's real or a wind up, but I suspect the measured comparison with the "Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact" indicates the former.
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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And from the Observer
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/aug/22/gordon-brown-letter-gaddafi-lockerbie
"Gordon Brown faced fresh questions tonight after it emerged that he discussed with Colonel Gaddafi detailed conditions for the Lockerbie bomber's return nearly six weeks ago,"
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392# Oldnat
Very interesting...
Only a fool would suppose that Mcaskil complied with Westminsters pressure to release al-Megrahi - I know politics makes for unusual bedfellows but I cannot realistically see Salmond agreeing to do ANYTHING to help Labour.
This does shed light on the probable source for the leaks that al-Megrahi was going to be released. If someone at the FCO knew what the Libyans were threatening it could easily have prompted the rumour mill and subsequent headlines.
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Read
http://www.buyusa.gov/sacramento/trademissiontolibyaandalgeria.html
between the
http://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/balance/c7250.html
lines
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393# Oldnat
I simply cannot wait for Monday's parliament recall :D
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382. At 8:57pm on 22 Aug 2009, GAberdeen wrote:
There is little point in getting into a debate about atrocities carried out by countries - most of them have in history.
It adds a lot of weight to the criticism of the Justice Secretary in a general sense.
While I stick to the assertion that all three Governments are involved, what worries me now is the possible effect on Scotland, in terms of tourism and trade.
Added to this is the news where BDO Stoy Hayward - appointed by Scottish Enterprise - where it apparently supports Diageo's plans. This one is bound to appear in the media next week, since SE report to the Scottish Government.
Link: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/glasgow_and_west/8215873.stm
I'll try and see if other news sites have it.
Another potential problem over the horizon is Mr Trump. According to a certain satirical magazine, some landowners are refusing to sell up and have won a legal case preventing compulsory purchase. I honestly don't know the full facts but it is a tad worrying if this is the case, because Trump might decide to go elsewhere.
Could be a busy week.
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392. At 9:50pm on 22 Aug 2009, oldnat wrote:
Interesting
More is coming out now
If that is the case, then this is bad for both Governments. The Justice Secretary could be accused of bowing to pressure from Westminster.
Things are getting messier by the minute.
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#389 ikamaskeip
Well said.
Re "Scotland and Britons in general just have not followed this unhealthy and unhelpful line because they recognise hypocrisy when they hear and see it", if you haven't already done so, both this week's Any Questions? (from Middle Wallop, Hampshire) and Any Answers? are well worth listening to, with the release being covered first on both shows. Radio 4 listeners may not share the same views as tabloid readers, of course.
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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MacAskil bowing to pressure from Westminster?
MacAskil condemned for rejecting the wishes of Washington and Westminster parties
MacAskil condemned for refusing to proceed with prisoner transfer (illegal)
... it cant all be true. Somewhere there is truth.
All I can say is there is a heck of a lot of politicisation over this. I think its filthy. But who can really be surprised? This is the chance everyone (unionist) where waiting for to 'give' the SNP an Iraq moment.
I too look forward to Monday.
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#400 Neil_Small147
The trouble is that there will never be the full truth out there.
Seems to me that the real injustice has been the failure of the UK/US to mount a proper enquiry into the Lockerbie affair. Since no one has claimed that Megrahi did this on his own, the relatives of the dead have never had an opportunity to discover who planned the deaths of those on the PanAm flight.
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"A UK government source who saw the letter said Lewis added: “I hope on this basis you will now feel able to consider the Libyan application in accordance with the provisions of the prisoner transfer agreement.” The Scottish government interpreted it as an attempt to influence MacAskill’s decision."
Was it? We need evidence. Published. What about an enquiry into this whole affair? From the original investigation to the MacAskil decision, including all advice recieved.
This is the only way to end the flithy politicisation of this issue by British Labour.
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#399
Sorry Neil, I disagree.
A life means the same to me regardless of what nationality it is.
By shrugging off a nations atrocities as something that "everyone does" so "it doesn't matter" is a dis-service to the considered opinion and keen mind that you regularly exhibit.
I fully accept Scotland's appalling role in the slave trade and Britian's multi million murder toll in it's 300 year expansion. I cry foul when our politicians say one thing and do another and I beleive firmly it's what sets good people apart from bad.
When I see hypocrisy I challenege it - even if it's someone I care about. I'd rather be interventionist in this sense than someone who shrugs thier shoulders and looks the other way. How else would one expect to change the world?
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#348
Cochranes piece was good - until he nat-bashed at the end - like he always does.
Kudos to him though - at least he speaks his mind - even if it gets him in trouble.
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Another sane and sensible voice
"The former British ambassador to Libya, Sir Richard Dalton, has called on the British government to be “more forthcoming in support of what the Scots have done”.
“There are a number of outstanding questions and silence I don’t think is serving the British interest well,” he said. “In my view it was not naivety, nor was it opportunism.”
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Interesting comment from one of the Scots Tories (I think well-connected in the Tory Party) over on PB.
"SNP Government faced with impossible situation due to duplicity by Westminster.
There are many of us who think that while the SNP Government could have handled things better (assuming Brown Central didnt intentionally try to spike it) that MacAskill performed extremely well and frankly in Scotland his performance has generally been well regarded which frankly is all that matters."
I wonder if Goldie will turn as much as possible of the attack on Labour - as well as on MacAskill.
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408. oldnat
I wouldnt be surprised oldnat.
We need Labour to perform badly- many key marginals in Scotland which we could win- the obstical is Labour not SNP.
Edin S
Edin SW
Edin North & Leith
East Ren
South Ayrshire
Ayr Central
Dumfries & Galloway
Aberdeen South
Stirling
...the Tayside is rock solid SNP right now. We have no chance other than strong seconds in:
Angus
Perth & North Perthshire
Ochil & South P
Ergo strategically attacking Labour makes more sense than SNP. Goldie understands this. I understand this- you may be a different party but your not our biggest obstical in a Scottish tory resurgency.
We need a major Labour meltdown in Scotland.
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#394.Brownedov
I hadn't seen any comments when I first read the article but it nice to eventually see that his conscience is coming more to the fore, long may it last. I expect that NH will come back blaming SNP activists for depositing more radioactive particles this time on grazing land around Dounray.
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And news becomes worse for the Brit Labs it would seem.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1208427/Labours-summer-truce-crumbles-Darling-attacks-PM.html
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#395 oldnat
Thanks for the Observer link. Generally quite interesting but although their "He is likely to face tough questioning on precisely why the convicted bomber was not transferred to a Libyan jail, rather than sent home as a free man" is quite correct (except perhaps for the "tough"), it's a bit disturbing that their political editor couldn't or wouldn't explain it to her readership.
Anyone can disagree with it but I thought MacAskill's statement extremely clear in explaining the process and the reasons for his decisions.
It's easy to be wise after the event, but perhaps when the BBC broke the story, MacAskill should have written an open letter to Obama saying he was required to consider prisoner transfer under the UK-Libya deal and needed the current official US view "on the record" regarding any pre-trial conditions agreed by the US.
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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What's that smell? It's Iain Gray's tail on fire. Gaddafi has just blown him out of the water. I look forward to Monday's debate in the scottish parliament. I wonder if Labour now does. This gets better and better.
I wonder when the US is going to understand that trying to bully the Scottish Government is counter-productive.
It is as well to be reminded that not only did the US shoot an unarmed Iranian airbus full of 290 civilians out of the sky, but it decorated the captain and crew of the ship that did it.
I believe the final casualty of the Lockerbie bombing will be the sorry Scottish Labour Party. The crass and opportunistic remarks of Iain Gray yesterday finally removed any residual respect I may have retained for the party I at one time supported. Though he is not leadership calibre I had entertained some respect for him but yesterday's performance indicated a lack of integrity, of honesty and of political judgement
Is there any reason left for the existence of the Labour Party in Scotland?
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#402. deanthetory
Eh?
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Joke MacConny-whats-his -face now? So?
Why does the BBC insist on pretending this is a mainstream issue?
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Here we go
Jack McConnell has waded into the argument with his size nines - again after he and everyone else were given the oppurtunity to speak out about it.
He describes "taking steps" to ensure that the damage to Scotland is minimised... I wonder if he and the rest of the unionist alliance are foolhardy enough to try to win a vote of "no-confidence" on Monday.
They would be extremely unwise to do so - but even if they did and succeeded - they will cause irrepairable damage to thier own reputations. They would really have to be at thier lowest ebb to attempt something of this nature.
I trust Salmond and his cabinet are more than a match for either Tavish, Grey Man or Auntie Bella individually - but if they decide to create an unholy alliance... who knows.
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http://www.sundaypost.com/news1.htm
"Opposition to call for no-confidence vote"
I wonder how this will play "Tories vote for a Labour Government"?
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Any comment Dean.
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#369 Northhighlander
Any spin and resulting fiasco in this case has been directly due to the behaviour unionist politicians and the media, in whose partisan and cynical interest it was to try to wrong-foot Mr MacAskill from the outset.
The predetermined 'outrage' behind the Parliamentary recall is simply the next phase of this divisive petty politicking campaign, in which there will be no genuine attempt, dignified or otherwise, to establish genuine answers, not least since there is not a solitary unionist MSP with the maturity or backbone to have taken this tough decision, or who would not have caved in to the 'threat' of any US disapproval.
Having made his decision and anouncement in a measured and assured way, despite the mud-slinging, flack, and international threats, Mr MacAskill should have little to fear from being held to account by fellow MSPs in a constructive manner.
Nothing, however, could be further from the unionist agenda, since, as we have witnessed many times, the unionist raison d'etre is not to hold the SNP government to account, but to try to damage them by any means necessary - irrespective of the gravity or sensitivity of the issue.
That not one unionist MSP has earned basic respect by demonstrating a shred of recognition or empathy for Mr MacAskill's decision pretty much nails the delusion that there was anything other than a party-political, anti-SNP campaign in place from the outset, and the farcical backlash posing as "holding the minister to account" is blown apart before it ever takes place.
Further - where stands the UK government in all this???
Even they appear to realise that to directly join in the hollow blood-letting would nail them as outright hypocrites, being directly complicit in the process of Megrahi's release, despite only lacking the sheer crassness of the US in playing the outrage card when they have untold political and financial benefits riding on future relations with Libya.
Does anyone seriously put Gordon Brown's deafening silence and AWOL status in this case down to coincidence??!!
Blind Captain got it spot on in his #367, and as GAberdeen commented: Roll on Monday's 'debate'!
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Comment?
To hell with thatcherite loonies in the home counties! I dont want them ideally in my party!
I seek pragmatic 'Heathite Fabianism' not a Nick Robinson brigade approach to politics!
I imagine an independent Scottish Conservative party (free from these loonies) will perform much better in Scottish polls. Now wouldnt that be a tragedy....hahahahahahah
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334
I also worked for many years with Americans. It was not a fruitful experience. I never met so many naive and one dimensional people in my life and I dont give a t*ss what the Americans think.
When they stop executing juveniles and the mentally deficient, stop selling guns to anybody at all in supermarkets,stop illegally invading other countries, stop torturing prisoners,and stop engaging in activities undermining legitimate governments all around the world while happily killing hundreds and thousands of innocent people in pursuit of US strategic goals I might start to pay attention to what Americans say about anything.
In the meantime I will retain my highest level of contempt for those in this country who believe that America has anything worthwhile to say on matters of morality, honesty or justice.
The "outrage" we see is entirely synthetic being whipped up quite deliberately to satisfy a distasteful and primitive streak in American society. It probably strikes a chord with the more simple of our citizens here, if they actually care at all about the issue. It has the further objective of allowing a fuious attack on the SNP.
This will backfire monumentally.
I have no doubt that Megrahi is innocent.
In that belief I am joined by such as Tam Dalyell, Professor Robert Black (who set up the trial), the United Nations panel who reported on the trial, Dr Jim Swire whose daughter died in the plane,eminent commentator Kenneth Roy who reported on the trial, the Parish Priest at Lockerbie and a whole host of other eminent persons, many legally highly qualified. With all repsect I value their opinions rather more than yours.
It was great to see the Saltire flying at Tripoli Airport and I have met nobody the slightest bit insulted by that. Have you read any of the congratulations flowing in to the Scottish Government from sensible people all around the world?
I am really looking forward to Monday's debate in the Scottish Parliament (especially now that Gaddafi has destroyed Labour's line of attack).
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Oldnat:
417.
This is Scottish politics at it's lowest, nothing about finding out the missing questions of the terrorist attack. It's SNP that, Alex Salmond this.. this is not party politics! How can the lowest scum of Scotland manage to get into Parliament and honestly attempt to gain political advantage over a terrorist attack?
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#358
You appear to have completely wrong figures about appeals for release on compassionate grounds.
The vast majority of them are agreed.
Can we expectto you to post the correct figures and offer an apology?
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411. At 10:55pm on 22 Aug 2009, oldnat wrote:
And news becomes worse for the Brit Labs it would seem.
I think you would prefer Broww and Darling to stay in power, for political reasons if not economic. I reckon Alan Johnson is biding his time quietly before an autumn coup, and reading into this I wonder if AD will strike the first blow against GB.
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413. At 10:57pm on 22 Aug 2009, sneckedagain:
I wouldn't agree that Gadaffi has blown Iain Gray out of the water; he's blown everyone out of the water. He's sitting smug at home while all three western governments are arguing. He blew MacAskill out of the water on Thursday by announcing Megrahi was free while the Justice Secretary was having a pop at Westminster. Then he arranges a welcome committee for Megrahi to upset the USA, then thanks Gordon Brown for his "assistance".
--------------
405. At 10:33pm on 22 Aug 2009, GAberdeen wrote:
I'm not shrugging it off, but the Scottish Government will not voice such criticisms in public.
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Just a thought.
Since the Americans knew that Megrahi was being considered for transfer/release, why didn't they just have him extradited to the USA for blowing up one of their planes?
Due to the one-sided extradition treaty in place between the UK and the US, nothing could have stopped it.
Or was all that lovely oil in Libya more important?
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re criticism of my post 358
funny how oldnat managed to reply so quickly with such comprehensive information. just what i suspected, the snp propaganda office is sitting waiting to pounce on anybody daring to criticise.
i got my info from watching tv. where did he get his such accurate info, a direct line to to holyrood.
besides, the 7 refused were a still regarded as a threat to the public. i suppose someone who has murdered 270 people isnt. well well well.
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# 421 sneckedagain
'When they stop executing juveniles and the mentally deficient, stop selling guns to anybody at all in supermarkets,stop illegally invading other countries, stop torturing prisoners,and stop engaging in activities undermining legitimate governments all around the world while happily killing hundreds and thousands of innocent people in pursuit of US strategic goals I might start to pay attention to what Americans say about anything.'
Fair point.
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Isn't this a bizarre news item to pop up shortly after Megrahis' release? Calley was in command of the platoon that killed 500 men, women and children but served only 3 years house arrest. 3 members of the platoon who tried to stop the massacre were denounced by Congress and received death threats. This story is also in the Arab News
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/8215556.stm
I'm sure northhighlander will be on shortly to blame the SNP and MacAskill in particular for trying to spin this one too
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dear moderator i have lodged an official complaint with the bbc re the hijacking of this site by snp activists. thos happened several years ago with another political site that got closed down. why cant we get peace to say our mind without this constant sniping and rubbishing of what anybody else has to say.
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#424
I am sorry to point out that many of your posts are very naive.
The fact is that Gaddafi has blown Labour's dishonest attack on the SNP out of the water.
Everybody is now reminded that it was Labour that first tried to work out a deal to send Megrahi home.
Labour is being proved to be duplicitious on this issue and most people now have little doubt that he Labour government has been communicating with Tripoli. The smoke screen they put up has been exposed by the Colonel.
Roll on Monday.
The damage this issue is doing to the remanants of labour's support base is massive
I only hope now that Gaddafi steps forward and produces the evidence of the stitch-up of Megrahi in which UK, US and Libya were complicit
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429. kenstor
"dear moderator i have lodged an official complaint with the bbc re the hijacking of this site by snp activists"
The last time I checked 'deanthetory' 'brownedov', 'northhighlander' ... etc ... are hardly SNP activists.
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#426 kenstor
I don't think you have had to watch someone dying of cancer. Someone 3 months from death is not thinking much of murdering people unless they are a psychopath. The doctors reckoned Megrahi wasn't so he gets to go home like any other Scots prisoner. What's your problem?
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I am suprised to Dean, since when did the Scottish National Party consider some of the extremes as I have suggested on these boards? Just who are these activists? Also should freedom of speach be stopped simply because you disagree with the position?
Kenstor please re-join the real world.
I also see my last comment was removed. It was highly critical of the opposition using the issue of release for political gain rather then a platform to find the missing answers surrounding lockerbie or using it to change Scots Law which was the main reason this man was released.
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#429,
"Dear moderator, it is come to my attention that a sizeable number of people who comment on this blog disagree fundamentally with me on a number of points ... as a result I have lodged a complaint." ???
Note that this individual, with no post history to speak of prior to this thread as far as I can see, is in his/her own little world perfectly entitled to spread smear stories about a grand SNP conspiracy to "flood" this blog (as they did in their previous 2, count them 2 posts)!
oldnat - someone who has contributed to the blog for as long as I can remember, is dismissed as some sort of "fraud" sitting in an imaginary central office basement!
Really ... you will have to do better than that.
I am interested in Scottish politics,
I happen to believe that Scotland would be better off as a sovereign state,
I make no apology for contributing to this blog,
if you don't like sharing space with those with whom you disagree
then I suggest that is your problem;
not mine, not a single other contributor's and certainly not the BBC's.
#431, a good point well made Dean.
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How sad.
We are reminded that Labour would've chosen an alternative to this humane outcome.
They would do well to remember that the SNP were elected, in part, because they intend to reduce our part in inflicting human suffering i.e. Trident amongst others.
For me, and evidently those that seek peace in all nations globally, this is a hands-down no-brainer.
Yes, they are our trans-Atlantic cousins indeed, but in essence Kenny MacAskill has reminded the USA that this (hopefully) soon-to-be wee independent country, opposes even the carrying of kitchen knives let alone guns. And in this crude example we see a nation struggling to convince us that two wrongs inherently make a right.
How sad.
P.S. Yip. Roll on Monday.
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Brian:
I am from the United States and in the affected area of New York State where some of the PanAm 103 Passengers..And, I have to disagreed with the remarks of the Religious Pitch to the Americans; Since, many families are heartbroken regarding the *current* deal that was done with the released of the Lockerbie Bomber....
=Dennis Junior=
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#426 kenstor
Not that strange, it's been in the papers all week
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article6795297.ece
Switch off your TV and research your subject then you can make your own mind up instead of being told what to think
So a vote of no confidence is allegedly being plotted for Monday. Yes it may happen, but only if Grey is convinced it will fail. HMV will make it absolutely clear how far he can go and a Scottish Election will not be viewed favourably. A minority Labour Administration would be virtually unworkable requiring total LibDem and Green support. So he'll be allowed to posture and make righteously indignant remarks but little else.
If a vote was called, would Goldie vote with Labour to bring down the SNP Administration, but then be able to prevent Labour forming an adninstration and force an election? I don't think this would harm Conservative support, nor would CMD be unhappy to see Labour in such a pickle. Probably won't happen, so the vote will fail and Grey will get to do some grandstanding, but he can forget about getting the keys to Bute House
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Goldie would have a choice of the snakes or the wolves, personally I believe the Conservatives have gained more with the nationalists then during both Labour/Liberal Democrat Governments. However the Conservatives may gain from new elections for the Scottish Parliament, whilst the Liberal Democrats and Labour may struggle to make gains, especially as the Scottish National Party remains popular and strong.
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What I have not heard so far from the Libyans is why he dropped his appeal. This I think will prove to be crucial in the end because it was in the public interest for the appeal to go ahead.
Off topic but I think worth commenting on. The BBC on the home page of their web site in the History section had this:
"1305: Scottish rebel William Wallace is hanged, drawn and quartered by the English at Smithfield, London."
This is an outrageous and anglo-centric opinion of the event. Wallace was no 'rebel'. He was a Patriot defending his country against an illegal occupation. The BBC should correct or remove this entry immediately.
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I'm hearing banjos again!
And they ain't American.
I love the assumption that those who put forward a critical view of Westminster are paid to do so by the SNP.
I believe in fair play.
I believe that the media has been less than fair since before the 2007 elections.
I believe we need to correct the media for the benefit of those who think they hear the truth from the mouths of newsreaders and journalists.
And no one pays me.
I look forward to the day that my country is independent, because I believe that is the natural way to exist.
Once independent we may even face having to choose political leaders from a Scottish Conservative , Scottish Labour , Scottish Green party etc. etc.
Personally , I can't wait.
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Let there be a vote of no confidence in the SNP administration. Let's see what Labour can do to help the Scottish economy before they get thrown out by the electorate in the next general election. When the Tories gain control of Westminster they will have no need to placate a Unionist Labour government in Scotland, as opposed to an SNP led Scottish government, because there won't be a referendum. The Tories will be able to ignore the needs and wishes of a Labour led Scottish government to the detriment of the Scottish people. We will see:
the whole of the nuclear submarine fleet based in Scotland,
we will have to pay for nuclear power stations that we don't need,
we will have to endure more deaths in UK/USA illegal wars (and still be targeted by terrorists),
we will see our investments in 'green' energy slashed to pay for Labour's mismanagement of the economy and the Tories rush to balance the UK books.
These and many more policies, which the SNP are against, will be foisted upon the Scottish people because the Scottish Labour cabal wish to mask the fact that the UK Labour party, under the direction of Gordon Brown, was not only party to the decision to release Megrahi but were the instigators of this move while trying desperately to hide in the background.
I think that time will tell that Megrahi was innocent of the charges of mass murder when new evidence arises in the future. You can be sure that when new evidence arises the establishment will dismiss it in the way that they always have by saying that this is the work of conspiracy nuts. It always seems to work for them and the general public just accepts it. The problem for the establishment, at the moment, is that we have the internet so we, the public, are not reliant on buying books to try and get to the truth, as what used to happen in the old days. So, eventually, the truth of the Lockerbie mass murder will rise from the morass of half truths surrounding this case and the actions of Kenny MacAskill will be vindicated.
As Wendy said: 'Bring it on!'.
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#426 kenstor
A quick google for the information confirmed what has been in the public domain for some time. If you don't bother to pick up the accurate date from a developing story, don't imagine that the rest of us are so lazy, or so happy to post errors.
As regulars know, I vote SNP but am not a member - another unjustified charge. You don't learn do you?
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#429 kenstor
If you post rubbish, it will be rubbished. Try posting accurately and you will be given a fair hearing.
Don't complain because you produce weak or false arguments.
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# 440 Diabloandco
'Once independent we may even face having to choose political leaders from a Scottish Conservative , Scottish Labour , Scottish Green party etc. etc.'
This is a good point. Just because the SNP may take our country into independence does not mean that those who voted for the SNP will remain loyal to the SNP after independence. There are many voters, like myself (if I was still living in Scotland), who may wish to see their votes put into other parties other than the SNP. When I was living in Scotland my votes and energy went into trying to attain independence for my country. I have lived in England for decades now and my votes have gone to the Conservative party (post Thatcher). During the Thatcher era I gave my votes to the SDP and Libs.
However, I would point out that, so far, I'd be happy to see the majority of the SNP policies enacted.
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438. Thomas_Porter
I agree- see my rationale at 409.
My lot will win if Labour perform really badly, but the scope for recovery up here is much smaller if SNP do badly. So why support Scottish Labour and make them look good?
Look at all those key marginals where the tories need labour to perform really badly, and then those where we need the SNP to do badly. Just from that our priorities should be made- 'down with Labour'
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"The Scottish government has defended its decision to release the Lockerbie bomber, amid mounting criticism on both sides of the Atlantic."
Whose word do we have apart from the BBC's that criticism is "mounting"?
What objective measure is the BBC using to establish this "fact"?
Unless we know what measure is being used how can we be certain that, in reality, criticism is not actually "receding"?
How do we know that the BBC is not "stoking the fires" of criticism?
The BBC has been proven to have lied in the past (e.g. TV phone-in competitions with bogus callers, etc).
Why should be believe a word the BBC says about anything?
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Anyone read the Hjul piece?
Nice!
I think the Cochranes are hedging their bets!
Anyone see the Joke on BBC news howling abuse at SNP decision?
Malawi? GO!
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I have just tried my link to 'Jananews' (# 317), the official Libyan news website, and have not been able to log on to it. Has anyone else had that problem?
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It was interesting to contrast the comments of Jack McConnell with those of the Scottish human rights professor on the morning news.
MaConnell seems to know all the answers to what should have been done with Megrahi but typical of the usual empty rhetoric of Labour he gave no definitive answers to what he would have done. All he could say was it should have been done differently. He also took the position that Scotland must be wrong over this. Why is he taking this position and not sticking up for Scotland and the Scottish legal system? Basically because he is trying to undermine the SNP. If any damage has been done, then the Labour party and the opposition are even more complitic than they are anyway, compounding the damage even further.
In contrast to MaConnell's shallow outpourings the Professor put the situation in accurate context legally then put the responsibility on the UK government for events which have led to this situation, by withholding material that could have shed light on who was responsible for the bombing and by dragging out the proceedings against Megrahi until the man's health deteriorated to such a state that he abandoned the appeal.
I hope the BBC will not see fit to excise the Professor's comments from later newscasts?
If this had been any other country, ranks would have been closed to protect its interests. No so, it would seem, in Scotland.
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For another nauseating article (and my response to it) from the Tory Shadow Minister for Wales -
http://davidjonesblog.com/2009/08/22/shame-is-too-much-to-expect-from-macaskill/#comment-2306
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#448 gedguy2
Looks like Jananews has removed it. Other rather overblown reports are however still there.
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A piece has appeared in that bastion of Scottishness, Scotland on Sunday, saying that MacAskills job is on the line now that the FBI have condemned the decision.
Since when did they decide our politics?
Am I tired of the media ordure!
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If what MaConnell is saying it looks like there may be a vote of no confidence 'it was up to the Scottish Parliament to take action to repair some of the "damage" caused by Megrahi's release.' i take this to mean a vote tomorrow. I would think if Labour get in again there will be a rush of pro UK policies forced on us before the next Scottish election. The tories would vote for Labour in this instance. Unionists stick together - stuff Scotland.
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# 451 oldnat
Thanks for that.
'Other rather overblown reports are however still there.'
I'm not denying that but I would say that if you want a peek at the truth then read both sides of the story. In my youth I always used to say: 'If you want to know what's going on read the article in the 'Times' and then in the 'Morning Star', somewhere inbetween is usually the truth.
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# 452 Diabloandco
Can you post the links to these articles that you keep pointing out?
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So what we are left with here is do we believe Mr Gaddafi or do we believe Mr Mandelson ? Personally I would find it very difficult to choose.
Also very interesting that the man who would gladly turn up at the opening of an envelope and had something to say about subjects as diverse as Susan Boyle and Raith Rovers IS NO WHERE TO BE SEEN, NEVER MIND HAVING AN OPINION ABOUT IT.
Where are you Mr Brown??????
As for the director of the FBI I too watched the original trial but obviously not as closely as he did. Perhaps he could tell me where the jury was sitting and what there verdict was? Obviously the sheer outrage he feels affected his memory!!! The only thing missing from his letter was - if we had got him to America he would have been dead long ago, guilty or not!
This has been a new-labour stitch up from the beginning but once again they were unable to deliver. it has started to fall apart after only 2 days. A record- even for them!
Sid
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I was outraged this morning to see Joke McConnell decrying Kenny McAskill's decision to release Megrahi on comassionate grounds. He said there was "outrage across Scotland" and that the decision "brought shame to the country". I'd like to know what gives him the right to speak for the country. Every rational, intelligent person I have spoken to supports the decision.
I am not ashamed to be Scottish in the light of McAskill's decision, quite the opposite, it made me (for the first time in a long time) proud to be Scottish. It doesn't say much for the kind of people that McConnell mixes with if he is basing his opinion on what he hears around him. More likely he's the mouthpiece for the very quiet Gordon Brown who must be very worried that his "special relationship" with the US has been damaged.
Almost everyone I have spoken to supports the view that Professor Alan Millar expounded - McAskill made the right decision. He made it correctly and with due process. He made it objectively and without prejudice.
I can fully understand the outrage felt by the victim's families when seeing the reception for Megrahi on his arrival in Tripoli, but it was to be expected. It does not mean that anyone in Scotland supported it. I doubt very much that it was Scots who were waving the Saltires (all both of them!)at the airport, and I'm sure no Scot would have attended or supported the celebrations in Tripoli. That Gaddaffi ignored Gordon Brown's request for a low key release just shows how much Libya has him over a barrel with regard to his arms deals and oil contracts. Gaddaffi knows full well that he has the upper hand and can thumb his nose at the West with impunity. He has the oil they want.
The American government's duplicity in this affair beggars belief. Consider this; if Mergahi IS guilty of perpetrating the bombing then logically Gaddaffi must have been his sponsor. If this is so then why would a delegation of 5 US senators led by Senator John McCain just have completed a trade mission to Libya to discuss arms contracts and oil deals this very month! So it was wrong for Kenny McAskill to release the alleged perpetrator of the bombing, but it's ok for the American government to snuggle up with his sponsor in the name of Profit. Hypocracy in extremis! America should be ashamed of itself.
Joke McConnell may just be worried that his special relationship with Donald Trump might be damaged and that his free life membership to the Balmedie course might be in jeopardy!
This whole affair has just convinced me that independence for Scotland is now a necessity. The sooner the better.
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Prof Alan Miller has also commented in the Sunday Herald -
http://www.sundayherald.com/news/heraldnews/display.var.2526965.0.0.php
THERE ARE three critical questions surrounding the release of Megrahi:
1: Was it right for the justice secretary to give compassionate release to Megrahi? Yes, he made the right call for the right reasons. But it should not have been in his gift to do so. Allowing a politician to be the final decision maker over the liberty or detention of any individual is a serious weakness in the system. An independent and impartial tribunal or court would be far better placed to consider the evidence and make a transparent ruling.
2: Have the human rights of the victims, their families and Megrahi been recognised and respected over the past two decades? No. The relatives of the 270 people who lost their lives are entitled to an independent and effective investigation into the circumstances of the tragedy - the state has a duty to investigate the circumstances and prosecute alleged perpetrators. Here is where the unfulfilled rights of the families meet the unfilled rights of Megrahi. Compassionate release wasn't recognition of his "human rights"; it was due process under Scottish law.
3: The idea of an inquiry has been raised. An inquiry would only fulfil the rights of the families and Megrahi if it was independent and impartial from the UK government and had sufficient scope and powers.
At the very least, the concerns highlighted by the Scottish Criminal Cases Review Commission should be revisited. Political influence over decisions on detentions should also be scrutinised, and the UK government opposition to releasing crucial documents should be dropped. The key lesson is that the human rights of all parties need to be at the centre of the legal process and decision making if the public interest is to be served, and if justice is to be done and be seen to be done.
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Moved to tears by kenstor's complaint at #429, and as one of the alleged "SNP hyjackers", am filled with remorse that the defamation of Kenny MacAskill and the Scottish Government is not being allowed to proceed in an appropriately one-sided manner, due to the interference of those like myself who might actually hold an opposing opinion.
Hell, at times these blogs can even resemble something like open debate - and we wouldn't want that, would we?
Let's do our onionist best to rubbish the SNP, but just in case that backfires, we'll call on the BBC to shut this down!
Sound familiar?
No - if we want to witness a "hyjacking" unfolding in public, we need look no further than tomorrow's unionist machinations in the Scottish Parliament - over which the lynch mob can hardly contain themselves as the prime their crude implements of war in the full public glare.
As for those who felt critical of Kenny MacAskill's performance on the grounds of any "embarassment factor", they had better have sick buckets at the ready for tomorrow's "debate"!
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Sunday Times (dead tree version) has a panel on "The world's reaction" of quotes from papers
Their "world" is
9 US papers - all hostile
1 Canadian paper - hostile
1 Libyan paper (saying that the Scots didn't give him medical care)
1 German paper (in favour)
1 Austrian paper (in favour)
Interesting that the 2 European papers share the same view - but not really surprising since all members of the Council of Europe share a common view of justice (unless they are posturing politicians of course).
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Dear Jack,
We really must do something about Malawi, although why you would wish to live in a country with such atrocious plumbing is quite beyond me. Good to see that you are helping to inject some backbone into Iain, Mr Mueller will be ever so grateful and likely to show it in the usual American manner. The embassy in Blantyre could become really quite palatial, if one ignores the lavatories.
I am also happy that the Sunday Post carried the story. It is good that 85 per cent of the population will be reading it. We really do have to get Mrs McGuigan from Monifieth on side. Never underestimate the Mrs McGuigan's of this world, they are a force to be reckoned with.
Sadly, I won't see you on Monday, I'm working with Israelis on arranging these water-bombing aircraft. As I'm sure you know I do have a house in Akali.
Yours gratefully,
M.
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Oldnat
Followed your link earlier to the Welsh Tory's site and thought you responded excellently
I also found the link to this little nugget from our 'esteemed' Secretary of Snake against Scotland on the same website -
http://deadlinescotland.wordpress.com/2009/08/18/8615-1635/
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429. At 00:57am on 23 Aug 2009, kenstor:
I'm no SNP activist, or for an other party come to think of it. People are entitled to rubbish the posts of others. It's called a debate. Sure, the tone is sometimes childish and at times we get totally irrational posts. We also get a few who will not accept the slightest criticism of the SNP/Labour/Conservatives.
You can also refer posts to the moderators, who generally play fair.
It's the advantage of living in a democracy.
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430 sneckedagain
I don't agree that Gadaffi has blown only Labour out of the water. But I'm not going to get into a yes/no argument here.
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On the subject of Megrahi's original trial and conviction, I think he is partly responsible, as so do a few others.
But the Scottish Government cannot now carry out an enquiry into the trial, nor can they demand answers, due to the fact that the Justice Secretary confirmed his guilt when announcing his release.
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457. At 10:48am on 23 Aug 2009, X-Sticks:
I thought Alex was Donald's best friend :p
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439. At 07:38am on 23 Aug 2009, noblemaximus:
Please, do not bring political correctness into events that took place 700 years ago. The politics then were even more complex than today's. Anyway, Wallace did a few incursions into England himself. (Check history, not the film).
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435. At 02:01am on 23 Aug 2009, ecosse1982:
Scotland may oppose carrying knives, but some of the recent sentences handed out by Scottish Courts for assault by knives, including attempted murder, are a joke. At least in the USA "life" generally means just that.
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On tomorrow's debate, I wonder if Labour are going to try and force a confidence vote against the Justice Secretary. Can they actually do that?? He's not going to resign or be sacked.
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#462 Jeepers Jim ... if thats not 'a big boy done it and ran away' what is ?
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Gedguy2, I am truly sorry that I am an utter incompetent when it comes to providing links.
The Telegraph, Scotland on Sunday, Sunday Herald for the lovely Murial conqueror of Monroes and the Sunday Times.
Regrettably I buy two of these on Sunday.
Contained within the information from bloggers on Alan Cochranes article is the means to defend NOT paying ones TV tax , should one be pi$$ed off with the BBBC.
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Apologies here for responding to the original article rather than the blogs above, but from my Welsh perspective there are a few questions that if answered, would clear up things a little for me.
Is there a pattern of releasing prisoners on compassionate grounds in Scotland and if so, is this case fairly consistent?
Did the British Government use this decision to 'do deals' with Libya?
Was the Scottish Government complicit with these deals?
If the answers to these questions are (in order) YES, YES & NO, then I cannot see where the Scottish Government can be blamed. If they bent to pressure and didn't release him which went against a consistent policy, then I suspect that the opposition Scottish MSPs would be just as critical.
I smell a rat here and the stench comes from 10 Downing Street. You may disagree with the Scottish Ministers decision, but the inconsistency appears to be all coming from 'south of the border'. If there were no deals, then why was the British Government spending so much time with Libyan diplomats over recent weeks? No wonder the US is so asnnoyed.
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#460. oldnat
MORIDURA
"Here is an extract from a regional newpaper in Germany, in Ulm, near Tubingen -
Scotland was a centre of the enlightenment on which the philosophical basis of modern society is based. And the explanation of the Scottish Justice-Minister Kenny MacAskill on his grounds for freeing the 'Lockerbie bomber' is consistent with the great Scottish philosophical tradition.
In an enlightened legal system what matters is punishment, not revenge. It does not serve justice to leave a man who can live only a few months, to die in his cell. Megrahi now becomes a part of the humanity which he harmed through the appalling attack at Lockerbie."
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# 458 oldnat
'An independent and impartial tribunal or court would be far better placed to consider the evidence and make a transparent ruling.'
And pigs might fly. It would never do for politicians to have their back room deals opened up to the public. Heavens, crivvens and help ma boab, the public might even demand transparency in all levels of government!
'The relatives of the 270 people who lost their lives are entitled to an independent and effective investigation into the circumstances of the tragedy - the state has a duty to investigate the circumstances and prosecute alleged perpetrators'
Here come those flying pigs again.
'the UK government opposition to releasing crucial documents should be dropped'
What! And drop centuries of keeping the subjects of Her Majesty in the dark? Who does this professor think he is demanding that we have open government? Doesn't he realise that people might actually begin to form their own opinions on matters which should be the exclusive concern of government? This professor should keep his nose out of government/big business and concentrate his talents on making sure that the people know about the important things in life, like how the poor beleaguered west is struggling to control all the resources of the world before someone else does.
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Ianapharri, you are spot on Sir!
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Interesting that the BBC are reporting that the USA is now notifying the Red Cross of "secret terror suspects". I suppose holding people prisoner is justice USA style while releasing a cancer victim isn't.
It must be difficult being an imperial power in the age of the internet. At least when we were the bodies remained buried. Nowadays you give rifles to the Indians and you end up sacrificing your young men in Iraq and Afghanistan trying to get them back. And everybody is watching and commenting. Politics isn't what it was and soon you won't even get a free lunch out of it. Damn the internet for interfering.
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#463 Neil_Small147
There seems to be no political divide when it comes to golf!
Wee Eck (I'm no great supporter of his) like McConnell, Scott et al can't see any further than a large bankroll of bucks. Unfortunately they can't see the dodgy character for the dollars and the potential membership for "the most exclusive" golf course in the world.
In the name of the glorious game they are all prepared to trash a beautiful part of the Scottish countryside (not to mention wildlife sanctuary and SSSI) and ride rough-shod over local councillors who would dare reject planning permission on those grounds and local residents who won't play ball with the Trump empire.
Oh, and while I am on the subject, Tavish Scott (along with Jack McConnell I believe) also made a decision to trash a large part of Aberdeenshire to provide a fast route for golfers wishing to get from St Andrews to Balmedie without any delay. This decision (to create the Aberdeen Western Peripheral Route)was made by Tavish at a meeting where no list of attendees was kept (was McConnell there?) and no minutes were kept of the meeting. The route Tavish chose was never consulted on with the public, and the subsequent "Public Inquiry" was so restricted as to make it almost worthless.
The hypocracy of Scott's recent statement on the 17th Aug calling the decision to release Megrahi as "incompetantly handled" and that "we can't have any more of the spin, twist and deception that we're getting from the SNP at the moment" is rich. His own incompetance, spin, twist and deception is world class in my mind!
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Reuters puts a great deal of information into one article.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#466 ianapharri
Not a problem.
Brief summary -
"Is there a pattern of releasing prisoners on compassionate grounds in Scotland and if so, is this case fairly consistent?"
Yes. 30 cases in the last decade. 23 granted. 7 refused, but we don't know whether any of these 7 were recommended for release by the Parole Board. I certainly don't know of an case in which the Justice Secretary overturned a Parole Board recommendation.
"Did the British Government use this decision to 'do deals' with Libya?"
They say not, but it's difficult to see any other motivation for Blair having made the Prisoner Transfer Agreement, or why Brown met Gadaffi 6 weeks ago.
"Was the Scottish Government complicit with these deals?"
They say not. That brings the discussion down to "Was their some kind of conspiracy?" or "did the SNP just reckon they were in a no-win situation so just decide to go with legal precedent?"
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re 421
I think most people would see your warped view of the world as quite extreme and offensive.
America does have a legal system that ensures all convicts get a trial. your new found ally in the world Libya regularly executes without trial.
Your statements show no compassion for the victims of the bombing, Magrahis release has nothing to with his guilt, it was done solely on the grounds of compassion.
I can understand why Kenny Mackaskill made is decision, I thik it is wrong, but I can understand it. What I find difficult to understand is the reaction of people like yourself. I struggle to understand how any right minded decent person would view the heroes welcome for Magrahi with anything other than complete disdain.
I can understand your loathing of America, your whole outlook on life is to want separation and division, however we have far more in common with America than we do with Libya. Thankfully you remain in a minority.
Re the statistics on compassionate release, since the guidance was introduced 7 have been refused.
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# 467 cynicalHighlander
A good article. Thanks for the link.
I agree that the citizens of the USA should look to their own government and decide what their own government is like. I remember watching a repeat broadcast by President Eisenhower who said:
'we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex... Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together.'
Only a few years after that Kennedy was assasinated. If that had happened in any other country apart from the USA then we would have considered that a coup de grace by a right wing fascist movement which, in turn, led to the debacle of the Vietnam war. Why should we listen to a country that has no respect for its own institutions never mind anyone else's? If you check out the CIA website link here it states as its mission statment:
'The Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) is an independent US Government agency responsible for providing national security intelligence to senior US policymakers'
Notice that it doesn't say anything about the elected President or constitution, only 'policymakers'. When the USA's government and institutions serve the citizens of their country with respect then I might listen to their feeble moral stance on Lockerbie.
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#463 Neil_Small
There may be no urgency or immediate need to hold an Inquiry, nor is there an impediment. If the Scottish government did set one up that would be purely party political posturing as it would need the co-operation of the UK government. So the UK government needs to instigate it, but with Milliband issuing the Public Interest Immunity certificate covering the witheld evidence, there is absolutely no chance of this occurring.
What will be Greys' line of attack tomorrow? The only one open to him is "I would have done things differently" any other line of attack will be vetoed by London. There's a lot of bear traps in that argument so he's going to have to be very careful and long on rhetoric, but short on facts. I doubt this would be enough to force MacAskills resignation, never mind the governments.
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#475 northhighlander
I hope you are not chosing your words carefully when you say America does have a legal system that ensures all convicts get a trial. What about the report on the BBC News page that the USA have started to tell the Red Cross about people they are holding prisoner on suspicion? This is not some tin pot dictatorship, the USA think themselves the greatest democracy in the world. (Indians should beg to differ.)
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# 475 northhighlander
Fair point with regard to the USA legal system and Libya's but I notice that you mention nothing about:
# 421 sneckedagain
'When they stop executing juveniles and the mentally deficient, stop selling guns to anybody at all in supermarkets,stop illegally invading other countries, stop torturing prisoners,and stop engaging in activities undermining legitimate governments all around the world while happily killing hundreds and thousands of innocent people in pursuit of US strategic goals.'
What is your opinion on that?
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#475.northhighlander
"however we have far more in common with America than we do with Libya."
Like being complicit in rendition flights, torture and imperialism!
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Just been doing a bit of background research on the USS Vincennes incident in July 1988 when it blew an Iranian Airbus and 290 people out of the sky, as it has been cropping up a lot on HYS.
Interestingly, George Bush Snr, who was Vice-President then, said on many occasions during the 1988 election that he would never say sorry for the incident, never mind the facts.
The USA eventual paid, eight years later in 1996, $61.6 million to the families of the 254 Iranians, and further compensation to the 36 other nationalities taking the total to a bit over $100 million. Six years later Libya agreed to pay £2.7 Billion to the relatives of Pan Am 105.
The US line was always that it was a tragic mistake, and yes Captain Rogers and the crew were all given the standard decorations on their return (one who was close to the decision got more than the standard campaign medal), which is eye wateringly distasteful.
But looking further, the “tragic mistake” starts becoming less believable. Capt Rogers had been increasingly irritating and worrying his fellow commanders in the field for his gung-ho attitude, and often strayed from his orders. On the day in question, one of his helicopters, at high altitude, reported it had come under fire from Iranian gunboats, though no damage was reported. Capt Rogers used his very expensive Air defence cruiser to chase the gun boats first into Omani waters where they were all warned off and then across the Straits, illegally too, into Iranian waters. USS Sides and USS Elmer Montgomery, were nearby, were frigates and therefore more capable of handling the gun boats, and were under Rogers tactical command at the time. However, Capt Rogers chose to throw his ship at speed after the gunboats and every time the gun fired the lights dimmed in the main tactical control room (the combat Information centre).
Iranian Air 655 took off from Bandar Abbas and was climbing towards 14000ft, they were communicating in English with Air Traffic on the standard Air Traffic Frequency, and their transponder was operating. Both USS Sides and USS Elmer Montgomery identified the Airliner correctly. The USS Vincennes crew, despite having a much more sophisticated Radar in its Aegis system identified it as an Iranian F14 Tomcat on a descending attack profile, at no time was USS Vincennes painted by an attacking radar and anyway Aegis is a system designed to handle multiple airborne targets (up to 100) not just one. Several screens in the Combat Information Centre showed information that would have prevented the attack. Despite still being in Iranian Airspace the so-called Tomcat was warned on civilian and military emergency channels with no response, the Air Traffic channel wasn’t used, apparently as this was not possible. Capt Rogers ordered the attack on the target and the Commanders on USS Sides and USS Elmer Montgomery were appalled but did not intervene as they deferred to the much more sophisticated radar on the USS Vincennes. Two Surface-to-Air missiles blew Iranian Air 655 out of the air just as it passed 7000ft on its climb.
The passengers and crew who were not incinerated or shredded by the shrapnel would have been alive and conscious all the way down to the impact, as the air at 7000ft is still at a reasonable pressure and breathable.
On studying this, and I will study it further, I would like to understand better what was driving Capt Rogers before I accept the “tragic mistake” scenario.
It is also sobering to consider how the families of the victims of this incident might feel toward a clearly unapologetic, parsimonious and aggressive US of A.
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# 465 Diabloandco
I'll let you join my 'Totally Incompetent' party.
Here is a (link) supplied by Richard from Quirkynats on how to do links. It saved me having to copy and paste.
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I have no problem with the American response.
They have a different legal system with different underpinnings. In Europe we take a different stance.
If the US executed one of our citizens for reasons we thought were unjustified, we would protest as well.
Incidentally I do wish the SNP would stop going on about Scots Law.
Of course it is a separate legal system, but the procedures for compassionate release are similar to England (or for that matter Ireland) and match the requirements of the European Convention of Human Rights.
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473. At 12:13pm on 23 Aug 2009, ecosse1982:
Read my post, you were using the campaign against knife crime as an example where we are apparently better than the USA. No we are not judging by some of the recent sentencing and lowering of charges. I wasn't defending the US at all.
Oh, and I'm a happily married hetrosexual male thank you very much.
477. At 12:28pm on 23 Aug 2009, spartans11:
I agree that MacAskill is not going to be forced to resign by any debate. Salmond, even if he wanted to do, dare not remove him from post at the present time.
421. sneckedagain
Can you please, in order to balance things up, explain Libya's democracy, where political parties are banned, the press censored, and human rights are an area of concern.
It's not only the US that has problems, but at least their people can vote the president out of power.
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Rather than try to influence the democratic and legal processes of a small European country, the Director of the FBI should concentrate on finding those who ordered and funded the bombing.
Perhaps Gordon Brown could have thrown the cuffs on Gaddafi at the G8 6 weeks ago.
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#198 Neil_Small147
Here, since you appear incapable of recognising the falsehoods being generated by your own distorted view of reality, are the requested answers to your self-righteous pleas of "why?".
I fail to see anything "aggressive" in exposing your transparent attempts to distort reality.
(Yet another) example:
1. Your distortion of truth: "My point about descriptions of MacAskill being a hero refers to HYS posts as well." (#198)
2. Actual truth: From your (#121): "A lot of people her(e) are praising the 'brave stance' of MacAskill and describing him as a 'hero'."
Everyone can see for themselves that your post referred only to "here" and not to any other identifable place such as the BBC's "HYS posts".
You cannot expect other people to read your mind and interpret "here" as being "Brian Taylor's blog" AND any other unspecified places such as "HYS posts as well".
Only your personal mental awareness allegedly includes "HYS posts" in your statement of "here".
Do not refer soley to "here" and then expect rational adults to somehow read your mind and interpret "here" as places other than Brian Taylor's Blog.
"Here", if unaccompanied by any mention of places other than Brian Taylor's blog, can only be interpreted as "Brian Taylor's blog" by human ordinary human readers devoid of the telepathic skills you demand of them.
Your attempt at an undignifed retreat from truth in #198 is typical of the rat trying to back out of the trap.
But unfortunately for you there is a difference between "cunning" and "intelligence".
The "cunning" erroneously think other people can't see untruths for what they are, when in fact they couldn't be more obvious if they had flashing neon lights on them.
I'm sure you don't like the bright light of truth being shone so directly on your attempts to bamboozle people into accepting your distorted reality, but if you are going to post "here" you must occasionally expect others with genuine intelligence to do so.
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Now here's the thing that many have missed:
It appears that Westminster tried to put pressure on MacAskill via the foreign office to transfer the prisoner and so was not neutral.
MacAskill has by all accounts followed the requirements of Teflon Tony's deal with Libya over 'prisoner transfer' and decided having listen to the applications of victims' families, US Government and his own law officers that there was no grounds for transfer as it would breech a tacit agreement between Westminster and Washington that any accused would serve their time in Scotland. He asked Westminster to confirm the detail of this agreement and Westminster failed to do so.
Under the requirements of the Scottish Prison Service and Parole Board he then assessed the requirements for the Libyan's request to be released on compassionate grounds. Once the CPS dropped their appeal for a heavier sentence, the Libyan dropped his appeal, the medical reports demonstrated that his condition is lethal and the Scottish Police Services reported on the Libyan's security if he remained in Scotland MacAskill then made his decision based on the legal requirements of Scots Law.
The only political aspect of this decision is Brown's cowardly silence and Cameron's ignorance of due process in Scot's Law combined with the empty dustbin rattling of Tavish, Annabelle and Elmer....
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#475
Poor stuff.
At what point did I suggest I had any affinity with Libya?
But of course you do this all the time in your posts.
What Libya does or does not do has no bearing whatsover on the case for Megarahi's release.
I'm afraid that distortion, abuse and personalised insult doesn't cut it on this blog but that is all you seem to feel able to contribute
As a matter of interest I have just been informed that the "crowd of thousands" at Tripoi Airport numbered just over 50, most of them employed a staff, gardeners etc at a certain embassy and that the Saltires were provided by that same embassy.
As Henry McLeish has joined Tam Dalyell in congratulating Kenny McAskill why do we not see them on BBC instead of the risible Jack McConnell?Labour is sh*tting on its own most principled supporters on this one.
We're winning this one. Roll on Monday.
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@484
Lol. Ok Neil, you win.
I understand that you are happily married, but is she?
Lol. Sad.
Wait a moment, we do have alot in common with our trans-Atlantic counterparts - had you not specified, my question would've been "is he or she?".
Nope, not homophobic, more quasi-religious.
Don't panic bumble bee, you're still a legend.
Love you.
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#475. northhighlander.
"America does have a legal system that ensures all convicts get a trial"
You really should think about your posts more.
I'm sure you meant to say all suspects get a trial
Or is it only the convicts that get a trial? What about the innocent? Are they just incarcerated until they admit guilt and are then brought to trial? Surely everyone is entitled to a trial with innocence being presumed until found guilty at which point they become convicts. That may well be a debatable point judging by past and current actions of certain American organisations.
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Joke seems to think HE can speak for Scotland, and has forgotten he is responsible for the destruction of Labour's 50 year old iron grip on the country.
... let the man speak, he can only further harm his party.
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#488 sneckedagain
"the Saltires were provided by that same embassy."
For anyone who may have missed it first time round (by virtue of it being temporarly censored) here is a reprint from my #85 of the whole sensational, exclusive story:
"SALMOND SMUGGLED SALTIRES ONTO LOCKERBIE BOMBER'S JET!
SCOTTISH Labour leader Iain Gray has called on Alex Salmond to explain how the hell Libyans greeting the arrival of the Lockerbie bomber managed to get hold of Saltire flags at such short notice.
Mr Gray demanded that the First Minister confirm or deny rumours that he sneaked onto the jet disguised as a cheery baggage handler and slipped the flags under a seat - ready to be flung out the window to Libyans on the tarmac as soon as the plane landed.
Mr Gray said: "If true this is an utterly shameful way for the First Minister of Scotland to act - skulking around airports dressed in Kwik-Fit overalls with Saltires stuffed up his juke. The Scottish public deserve to know the truth - and Scottish Labour are going to deliver it!"
A Holyrood inquiry is to be held into the allegations headed by former Presiding Officer Lord Steel. The committee will convene for several weeks at a top Edinburgh hotel where they will probe the alleged breach of parliamentary standards between very nice four-course lunches paid for by the taxpayer."
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#491 pattymirkwood
Not true, you're giving way to much credit to Jack and doing Brown/Blair/Mandelson a disservice by stealing their "glory"
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Having paused in the supermarket to read the front page of the Sunday Post; the suggestion of a vote of confidence is actually straightforward. As it was a quasi-judicial decision to release Mr Megrahi rather than a political one, any vote of confidence would be in respect of Mr MacAskill's handling of the affair rather than the government's. However the effect would then be the same as the government cannot allow ministerial appointments to be decided by the opposition.
How this will actually pan out remains to be seen, and if it wasn't so serious, tomorrow's session could be highly entertaining especially given the mounting evidence of Westminster's grubby paws being all over the release and, as I suggested in an earlier posting, the accusations of dithering arising not from indecision but from Mr MacAskill's refusal to initiate a prisoner transfer rather than wait for the medical evidence before playing the game.
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486. At 1:14pm on 23 Aug 2009, bighullabaloo:
Why don't you just admit that you cannot accept any criticism of the SNP?
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The Labour party are making a total fool of themselves. They are the impotent party. Everything they do turns to dust. The damage they have wreaked on Scotland and now on its reputation is disgusting and they are still doing it over this affair.
When is the Labour Party going to get sensible and get rid of Brown? He is a liability to them. They should do a Maggie Thatcher on him. Its still not to late. (why am I saying this? Brown is the best advocate for independence that we could have. Keep him, Labour party).
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ha ha ha
They've referred my #492 for moderation AGAIN when it's merely a repeat of my #85 - and they've already published that!
:-)
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#491 pmk
Is it just me but have the usual suspects been silenced while Team B try to get Liebor out of the hole their "top" team have dug? It must be distressing when McLeish and Dalyell aren't following the script. Don't say the Labour are breaking up.
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#495 Neil_Small147
"Why don't you just admit that you cannot accept any criticism of the SNP?"
Why don't you just admit that you are anti-SNP?
That would be far easier than clinging to your naive belief that people here are stupid enough to swallow statements such as this from your #121: "I am not making political point scoring."
This not long after implying that MacAskill (of the SNP!) is incompetent (#37): "Next time get Salmond to do the work, he at least is competent."
Have you got any idea how insulting, not to say tedious, it is reading that sort of self-contradiction? Or how easy it is to see through it?
And all this, despite at one point (#63) you making a unsupported claim of "professional" skill in communication, whilst criticising MacAskill as "appalling" in that respect.
Where can we find the evidence for your alleged "skill"?
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Now Alan Cochrane of the Tory-graph,
(Who has been claiming to smell blood in the water every single week since "those damned, commie, hippie, tory, fascist separatists" came to power), runs the following headline,
“Lockerbie Bomber: Blame Megrahi's release on London not Edinburgh”
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/alancochrane/6073739/Lockerbie-bomber-Blame-Megrahis-release-on-London-not-Edinburgh.html?state=target#postacomment&postingId=6076986
(and is immediately and hilariously accused by multiple posters of being a closet SNP supporter!)
Vote of No Confidence ???
In the immortal words of Wendy Alexander: “BRING IT ON”,
Lets see how the Scottish people react to a cabal of unionist parties overturning their democratic choice shall we?
I know Tavish is completely daft and leading his party to destruction, but Bella will likely have more common sense (more is the shame) … now, just how would She justify to Cameron voting in a Labour Government in Scotland? How would Cameron justify voting in a Labour Government in Scotland to the Westminster system?
Frankly, this could be just the ticket to ensure Labour’s vote collapses at the next general election … 20-25% if they are lucky.
And BTW – hit the road Joke, is Malawi still not waiting? When, oh when, will your seat be safe enough for the Labour Party to allow you to depart?
#498 handclapping - well summed up, Labour's desperation (now exploiting a man dying of prostate cancer for all the political capital they can get) is plain for all to see - McLeish will likely be expelled soon, if he keeps on crossing the dying hierarchy.
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