Government unlikely to fall - yet
Could Alex Salmond's government fall? His administration is facing undeniably its toughest challenge since winning power two years ago.
But could it fall? Could it be brought down over the decision to return the Lockerbie bomber Abdelbaset al-Megrahi to Libya?
Numerically, yes, it could. Politically, strategically, it looks unlikely. At this stage.
Firstly, today.
Kenny MacAskill will make a statement to MSPs explaining his decision. Parliament has been recalled from recess explicitly to hear that statement.
There will be no vote: purely the ministerial statement followed by questions.
Votes, however, will almost certainly follow next week when parliament returns in full session.
Then, it is anticipated that opposition parties will table a motion condemning the decision which, they say, was wrong in itself and has had adverse consequences for Scotland.
But that would not be a confidence motion.
You can say it would be "tantamount" to a confidence motion. But parliamentary rules don't recognise "tantamount."
Should he lose that vote, it would of course be open to Mr MacAskill to "consider his position."
That, however, is the permanent state which attends ministerial office.
Here are the rules. Under the Standing Orders of parliament, a motion of no confidence can be tabled at any point.
That could cover the government as a whole or an individual minister.
(Actually, the rules refer to "the Executive". Standing Orders, it would seem, are still reflecting the wording of the Scotland Act rather than the chosen terminology of Team Salmond.)
For such a motion to be debated, it must be signed by 25 MSPs.
For such a motion to succeed, it must be carried by a simple majority of those voting in the chamber.
That is the case with regard to either a minister or the administration as a whole.
Further, the Scotland Act 1998 - from which Holyrood derives its power - provides that no Minister or government can remain in office once losing the confidence of parliament. Resignation must follow.
If a first minister resigns, then a successor must be chosen from among the ranks of parliament within 28 days.
Otherwise, parliament must be dissolved and fresh popular elections held.
Parliament can choose to dissolve itself. But that requires a two thirds majority.
Those, then, are the rules. Here comes the politics.
Opposition parties are out to condemn the Megrahi decision - and the man who made it, Kenny MacAskill.
They want to extend that condemnation to Alex Salmond and his government more generally.
However, they want to focus for now upon the decision, upon the issue.
They do not want at this stage to prioritise the issue of confidence or otherwise in Mr MacAskill or in the government as a whole.
Why not? Two reasons.
They believe that Scottish and global opinion would not look kindly upon an act which might be interpreted as moving over-swiftly into the partisan sphere.
Secondly, they recognise that the very fact of tabling a confidence motion instantly changes the nature, tone and terms of the debate.
It tends to rally support within the governing party.
So, for now, expect opposition parties to focus upon their opposition to the decision per se.
Expect Kenny MacAskill to focus upon defending his decision.
For now.
I'm 
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~26~RS~)
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Brian, SNP enemies might use this to sink the minority government, they did nothing wrong in releasing someone on compasionate grounds. Where it went wrong is that he was not returned under UK control so Libya can have a field day with this. UK government has remained in the background to allow the SNP to feel isolated. It seems strange but i'm a unionist and i'm supporting the SNP on this. It does throw up the next question on whether a devolved government should take decisions such as this knowing the UK based implications that arise and considering the number of scots in the UK parliament some severe double stds have been shown.
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There's no way that the Salmond government will fall over this unless something highly damaging emerges in the future. If there was a credible government in waiting in Holyroyd then they could be in real trouble but as things stand I believe that Lord Lucan will win the Grand National on Shergar before Annabel Goldie votes to replace Alex Salmond with the political titan that is Ian Gray!!
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If Megahi had not been released on compassionate grounds, Scotland would have had to decide whether to grant the Libyan request for the prisoner to be moved to Libya under the murky Blair/Brown extradition arrangements.
This was a veritable poisoned chalice, and whichever choice was made would have led to bad feeling, vitriolic wordwide debate and anguish resulting in benefit for no-one and damage to many.
Politically, then, the correct decision. Convenient, yes - for us all except Megrahi.
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You seem correct Brian.
I doubt a 'no-confidence' vote will ever come.
Brown doesnt want 'his masters voice' (read grey) to force more elective challenges upon his failing Labour party.
And Goldie simply doesnt want to bring down the SNP government. Our problem in Scotland in recovery terms is Labour- not the SNP threat.
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Having read the letter, I feel sorry for Megrahi.
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I will be very surprised if there is a vote of no-confidence in MacAskill or the government this afternoon as the public memories of the expenses are too fresh and both Labour and Tory parties are still smelling a bit of the trough.
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What a NON STORY - the SNP could quit and return even stronger than now-I wish they would and show up what a shower of numpties r in Opposition. Justice Sec damned if he did - damned if he di`nt - sums up ZanuLiebour - Tories and especially Liberals.
As for US crocodile tears - which coutry fundraised for IRA - welcomed Adams etc etc - what utter HYPOCRISY. As for BBC on this issue - RUBBISH - why no questioning of the Clown on his stance??? - no, have a go at SNP - much easier. PATHETIC.
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To add to comment 2 above, it's far more likely that the UK government will be damaged when Megrahi and his team release the evidence for his stillborn appeal. I believe this is one of the main reasons why MacAskill made the decision he did (as well as being effectively boxed into a corner by Westminster - he only had two options and chose the least bad of the two in terms of Scotland's international reputation). Megrahi was likely to win his appeal, as the foot dragging by the Westminster government over this issue demonstrated.
Although the US and UK govs have been spared the embarrassment of an appeal, further revelations will be coming out of Tripoli as Megrahi appears to be determined to clear his name. It'll be interesting to see the direction US rhetoric takes when the finger of blame starts pointing towards the Oval Office, Pentagon and Langley.
On that note, although I don't agree with some of his reasoning, I'd like to congratulate MacAskill on having enough backbone to stand up to the bullying of the US for a change. The London establishment could take some lessons in how he handled this, particularly in the supine way the Garry MacKinnon case has been handled.
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On the main issue of this debate I would like to first congratulate England on winning the Ashes.
Secondly, I would like to apologise to the world for Iain Gray, Annabel Goldie and Tavish Scott.
Thirdly, I would like to apologise for the partisan coverage by BBC Scotland, well someone has to.
Fourthly...........fourthly.........ah yes, I nearly forgot, Megrahi is completely innocent (not as if that is in any-way important to this debate).
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Is there any good reason why someone in the SNP cannot call a vote of confidence in the government and therefore force the oppositions hand? If they vote for they cannot continue to try and make capital from the decision and is they vote against then it may be seen as being partisan.
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"The government is failing the poorest communities in England by failing to crack down properly on crime levels, the Conservatives say.
Figures released by the Tories suggest the 20 most deprived council wards are in the top 10% for crime.
Shadow home secretary Chris Grayling said Labour had "let down" the poor and could no longer claim to be "the party of progressive politics"."
- http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8217444.stm
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Jimmythepict #6
I think the opposition parties saw a glimmer of hope to get back to the trough. Really, though, with all the stick we are taking from revenge hungry Americans we need our politicians to defend Scotland and it's laws not attack them.
Perhaps we could get the Libyans to video the man's last few moments and put it on youtube. Then those who want "justice" could watch it whenever they felt the need. It would help if we had some footage of distressed relatives.......
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No chance of Labour and the Libs forcing an election, they would be slaughtered. Where , in all the condemnation of Megrahi have any of our, or the US's politicians extended their condemnation to Megrahi's employer who must have ordered and paid for the atrocity ? Perhaps there is too much oil and trade cash riding on Ghadaffi's goodwill to risk including him in the condemnations. Hypocracy and righteous indignation sit well together amongst our politicians. The Corfu dinner with Ghadaffi's son didn't seem to be marred by the spectre of 270 deaths at his fathers hand
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Brian, as always you are measured. It is only anecdotal of course, but many people I have spoken to in the past few days, again many of whom are not SNP supporters think 1. that MacAskill was in a quite impossible position, 2. Megrahi was more likely innocent than guilty and 3. that the media, BBC included, have reacted like sharks scenting blood and have covered this in a rather hysterical and unbalanced way.
My own view is that there was nothing MacAskill could have decided which would not have caused some kind of stooshie. I believe that he made the right decision for the right reasons and it is there in our national laws that such a decision can be made. Indeed, I read that in 30 such applications for compassionate release in the past 10 years, 23 have been approved. Where I do not agree with Mr MacAskill is the religious overtones in his speech and his assertion that Megrahi was guilty. On the latter, I suppose, he could not possibly speculate in this situation.
For the Americans not to understand this is perhaps forgiveable but they perhaps could have checked before criticising and throwing the toys out the pram. We have no idea how their laws work from where we stand, but we do know that extraordinary rendition and Guantanamo are examples of why we should not listen to their views on how to treat prisoners.
For David Cameron, aspiring to be the PM of the whole UK not to understand this perhaps demonstrates that the Tories are still the party of England and are all but irrelevant in the Scottish context.
We'll see what happens. I do not think this is the end of the SNP as some observers will have us believe. I personally believe in the long run, it may work to their advantage. Time will tell!
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Doncha just love it?
The opposition has a wee problem really, how can it shout the odds when Smily, cuddly Blair has been in Gaddafis arms, not so smily Brown writes letters on first name terms to Gaddafi and Saif meets with a mistrusted , unelected every title in the book spinner.
As for the FBI letter , perhaps the guy who wrote it should have done a tad more research before putting pen to paper?
He obviously knows nothing about the trial.
Slick and Smooth as OIL boys and girls!
And it is'nt just the UK either.
Delicious!
And only 20 minutes to wait!
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Well all I can say is thank God for England winning the ashes for now the English Broadcasting Corporation will turn its biased nose away from Holyrood. What a fickle bunch they are a White City!
I hate having to say it but I fear Kenny MacAskil will have to fall on his sword. Whether he is right or wrong in this matter is irrelevant, there are bigger fish for the Scottish Government to deal with and by that I don't mean Iain Gray, I mean the future of Scotland. Sad, but a necessary evil.
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Someone from the SNP Govt should read out a list of those agreeing with the decision ie
Henry MacLeish, Tam Dalyell, Lord Fraser, the Church of Scotland, Archbishop Conti,etc,etc, and then read out another list ie
Richard Baker, Tavish Scott, Ian Gray, Bill Aitken, laugh out loud and sit down.
I hope that all those "great and good" who agree, write letters to the Press on the subject. Watch the Labour RC MSPs in particular climb down.
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If the opposition honestly call a 'vote of no confidence' then I hope the public ensures the Scottish National Party receives their support because political parties should not benefit from such a sensitive case.
If the opposition believes it was the wrong decision then they should ensure that a convicted terrorist can never walk away on compassionate grounds. However has the opposition suggested that we should change the rules? No! It's all about damaging the Scottish Goverment, does anyone else find that sick?
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I'm glad I wasn't in McAskill shoes. Personally I'm happy with the decision, although I may have been tempted to leave it another 4 weeks.
But I can see the headlines had the decision gone the other way ... "Outrage as Taxpayers spend £ks on Bomber's medical bills"
I also find Grey's antics astonishing, saying he would wait till saw the reation in Tripoli before commenting does not show him as someone who is prepared to make the big decisions.
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I suspect, in the long term, that the SNP will come out of this well.
They've shown backbone, human decency and respect for due process, to no obvious short term plotical advantage.
All quite refreshing and comforting to an electorate sick to the back teeth with unprincipled toadying, political opportunism and rule bending and breaking to suit the political or personal agenda of the day.
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Live coverage of MacAskill's statement and subsequent questions is here for UK users. You might just recognise the commentator...
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I love a conspiracy theory so how about
SNP decide to cause a huge outcry by releasing Megrahi which they know will turn public opinion outside of Scotland against them. The more isolationist and parochial Scotland is portrayed by the global media the more the thrawn Scots will feel persecuted and by egging the opposition into a motion of confidence in the Government / Executive an election will be precipitated. The majority of Scots, who are fiercely proud of their independent legal and educational systems but don’t necessarily want separation from the UK , will vote overwhelmingly for the SNP and suddenly the SNP have their dream of an independent Scotland .
Too cynical probably
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#10. I imagine they could but if the opposition parties have any wit they would abstain on what would obviously be a trap. Also I doubt that the electorate would be impressed by the ensuing spectacle.
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Labour and other Unionists in Scotland have seriously misjudged this one, there appears to be overwhelming and growing support for MacAskill.
Brown is silent and missing as usual, he is a political coward and doesn't know how to handle a situation much of which has been caused by Labour politicians.
The public comments from senior American figures will have been done with the knowledge of Macavity and Whitehall. The prisoner transfer agreement was accomplished by a Labour government acting with the full support of the USA. Both these administrations supported the transfer of Megrahi from Scotland, an act that would have been contrary to the terms of the original trial agreement that insisted that he serve out his sentence in Scotland.
The orchestrated attacks on MacAskill were intended to sway public opinion away from the Justice Minister whilst at the same time weakening the SNP. However, with each staged attack the support for MacAskill by the Scottish electorate increases.
The English media have now picked up the 'boycott' story and are a little uncomfortable with the fact that the much highlighted website makes mention of UK goods. This is where Macavity will be targetted by the English media, many of whom will use the opportunity to question him at some length over the very many aspects of this case.
Macavity is in a hole, if he says nothing then he will be labelled a coward. If he supports MacAskill then he (publicly) is in disagreement with the Americans, who don't really care because Cameron will be used in order to 'mend' the relationship. If Macavity supports Iain Gray's nonsensical suggestion that a dying man should have been forced to stay in Scotland, leaving Scotland a possible number 1 target for fanatics, then what of his moral compass and christian faith?
Remember also that refusing Megrahi's request for compassion would have left his appeal live. The nightmare scenario of an innocent (now dead) man refused compassion by a Scottish Government is simply unthinkable.
Labour in Scotland believed that the petty politics and smears that are the trademark of their election campaigns would work in their favour here. They have completely misjudged the fact that the Scottish electorate, of all hues, saw a Scottish Government Minister represent the nation last Thursday - they didn't see an SNP politician, only Unionists saw that.
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"They believe that Scottish and global opinion would not look kindly upon an act which might be interpreted as moving over-swiftly into the partisan sphere"
Frankly, I think it's too late for the opposition parties to claim they have not been partisan in this affair.
They have been shockingly partisan and I resent them for it.
Mr Gray's ridiculous bravado in his claims that he wouldn't have released Magrahi was just about the most dispicable remark I have seen from any politician.
Tavish Scott has evidently lost sight of his party's scruples. I htought if any party would have favoured a strong adherence to principles of compassion it would be the Lib Dems. Evidently not.
What I deplore most about these people and their parties is their sheer lack of sincerity and sensitivity. No one in any other party in Scotland would have shouldered the responsibility for aming this decision the way that Mr MacAskill and the SNP did.
And what is more, the SNP have been a solid and successful government for Scotland. To bring them down using so sensitive as issue as this one is beyond reproach. The very fact that the opposition parties in Scotland are threatening to do so fills me with as much disgust as I
have ever felt in my life.
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To No 15
The guy who wrote the FBI letter was Mueller the very guy who was in charge of the investigation of the Lockerbie tragedy. He was the one mainly responsible for the accusation of Megrahi. He may well know nothing about the trial but knows everything about the questionable evidence that he provided to ensure
Megrahi's conviction .
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#18 Thomas_Porter wrote
"It's all about damaging the Scottish Goverment, does anyone else find that sick?"
Absolutely. They should be ashamed of themselves, from Brians piece it would appear that the Justice Secretary's time in post can now be measured in days, an absolute disgrace.
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Brian,
"So, for now, expect opposition parties to focus upon their opposition to the decision per se."
Good, then the opposition (to Scotland) Brit-blinded can carry on looking even more petty, and traitorous to the electorate. One day ALL their voters will wake up, fed up with their obstructive whining.
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#10 It doesn't really behoove the SNP to call for a vote of confidence in themselves. It might be a shrewd move, but there's been more than enough cynical grandstanding on this issue. Public inquiry time, methinks.
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Two-faced Scottish labour politicians should be ashamed of themselves, with a few honourable exceptions.
They are damaging Scotland's reputation by making this political, when most of them secretly agree with the decision, along with the UK government.
We should all be standing up for this country and it's legal system which was followed to the letter.
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To No.15
The guy who wrote the FBI letter was Robert Mueller. the same guy who was in charge of investigation into the
Lockerbie tragedy. The guy who presented the questionable evidence that convicted Megrahi. No
wonder he's in such a fury. Seems to me he could be more scared of further investigation than he is angry at
Scotland.
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#673 profg1969
An fine example of how irrational and unattractive a reaction of bitterness seems. SNP looking the more mature, thanks!
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STOP PRESS: "MacAskill savaged by three dead Cheviots"
LOL
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Nicol the Nose Stevens , has just shot himself in the foot.
A foolish statement rather than a question.
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ZanuLiebour wouldn't dare, they are Turkeys voting for Christmas if they try to bring down the - still popular - SNP government and replace it with a cobbled-together undemocratic collection of the parties the voter rejected last time,
Part of me kind of hopes they do try it, however, as it would surely hasten further the demise if Liebour and Fib Dems in Scotland.
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Brian,
The third reason why the opposition parties will run scared of a vote of no confidence is because they are gradually realising that they’ve TOTALLY mis-read public opinion.
Today we’ve seen the Church of Scotland and the Catholic Church in Scotland both coming out in favour of MacAskill’s decision. Add that to the support of the Scottish Human Rights Commissioner, the former First Minister Henry McLeish and you see that some people are beginning to stick up for Scotland’s sense of compassion and its justice system. Scotland likes a brave underdog, and someone who stands up to bullies.
I have yet to speak to anyone who doesn’t support Mr MacAskill. They say that a week is a long time in politics. I think that the last one has turned Kenny MacAskill from your average Justice minister to a national hero. I think he – and the only party to have come out of this with any credit, the SNP, are untouchable.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#24
I absolutely agree with your post and think it very well put.
I think it is also worth stressing that the English-based media seem in fact to be coming out more and more in support of the Scottish Government and appear less and less enamoured with the role of the British government in all this.
There will be a lot of digging by journalists in England regarding deals and so on made with Libya. One thing about the English is that they don't like it when their governments try to pull the wool over their eyes. That really puts their danders up.
I only wish the media in Scotland would show the same mettle instead of releasing stories based on Labour press releases all the time.
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Solid Scottish Conservative contributions.
1] Annabel Goldie.
She did well to expand the complicity of New Labour and their possible role. "Gordon Browns baffling silence"- unexplained and unanswered by Labour to date.
2] Bill Aitken.
Explanded and continued to focus Scottish Guns on the backroom dealings suggested that Labour engaged in over this issue. "caught up[SNP] in a greater political game"- does well to highlight that in this issue Labour is neck deep in conspiracy, secret meetings (read Mandelson two meetings the last 3 months with Gaddafi son).
3] Net Result of Scottish Conservative contribution.
Scottish Conservatives poking Salmond and SNP (in my opinion on secure and not ludicrous grounds). But focusing the Tory guns on Labours complicity all the way along this issue, right back beginning in the 'deal in the desert'.
Conclusion: solid, measured. Secure. Worthy. A stark comparison to the Liberal and Labour contributions which seemed to strangely echo each other.
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My parents have been labour supporters all their days but are now stating that they will be voting SNP. My fathers view is that he was delighted to see that at least one of our political parties have shown back bone and have been quite willing to stand up to what he deems as American bully boy tatics. Our nation is a great one and I am proud to be a Scot. I am sure that world wide our reputation as a nation is far more well received that those of America. I think we shall be seen as a small nation who has decided to stand up and be counted.
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Malcolm Chisolm!
Well said that man. A Labour member capable of free thought.
A credit to the principles his party once held.
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Malcome Chisolm makes a solid contribution.
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Tony Blair agreed in 2007 that the "compassionate" rules would apply to Megrahi to, surprise surprise, help London based companies cash in. Now the foreign office pressures the release of a man who has 3 months tops to live and then washes their hands.
Party politics gone into overdrive, and the result is Scotland has been tarnished internationally and it will only be London Labour who benifit (cause suddenly Browns out of the spotlight).
A shocking case of political assasination, the SNP should call an election now and wipe holyrood clean. We've been weakened so much for the benifit of the union (or London, i forget), this must surely be the last straw
The best part is this is the closest the unholy alliance has come to unseating the elected government, but they cant take the last step cause they will lose the election. Expect the smear campaign to really ramp up over the next few days, headlines to look out for are:
"Salmond joins Al Qaeda"
"Big Eck was real Lockerbie Bomber"
"Scottish Government would have released Hitler"
"McAskill and Megrahi Secret Love Affair"
And, most far fetched of all: "We had nothing to do with it: The Foreign Office speaks"
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Cochrine defends the SNP. Telegraph sides with SNP....the times they are a-changing
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Re #19
rearrange the following into a well known phrase or saying: "nail on head hit the" :-)
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Kenny MacAskill gave a very good account of himself in parliament. It was also good to see opposition MSPs supporting the Scottish Justice Minister's decision. You can take it there will not be a motion of no confidence. With opposition MSPS supporting Kenny MacAskill's stance today that isn't going to happen now.
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Just finished watching the Holyrood statement and question session. As would be hoped a sober and serious occasion, which almost all politicians responded to well. MacAskill gave a robust and strong performance. In essence his decision boiled down to the man was dying and should be sent home, not least as to keep him in Scotland in a hostel or Hospital would have serious security implications as well as being extremely disruptive to others living there. A sound and sensible decision.
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Brian i thought you were writing about Westminster there for a moment, the number of opportunists and band wagon jumpers boggles the mind , and they are all a disgrace, also a nice deflection from the trough snufflers and the many many dead and injured returning from Afghanistan.
The US is a joke, they hid the Irish terrorists, they have abused their power since Vietnam, and it is all a faux shock and what is going on. We need straight talking an no more burying of truth and Milliband tricks etc tell it how it is, because the Scottish Government Minister did the right and only thing in this case.
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If Kenny MacAskill had decided not to free Megrahi, then he would have effectively set a limit on how severe the crime is before compassionate leave can be considered. I now look forward to the opposition parties stating what their official limits are, assuming that these will be set in the number of murders.
Shall we say a limit on double of treble figures?
The man is being castigated for being consistent and having a spine and I am stunned how many fellow Scots are turning on him for this. The English and US press are less of a surprise. The situation is being made worse for Scotland not by the actual legal decision, but by the opposition politicians reaction to it.
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It is all too sadly easy to mock Iain Gray, whore recent remarks combine bluster, ignorance and hypocrisy in equal measure. Labour just hate the SNP so much that reason goes right out the window, doesn't it? Sad, but predictable.
What is probably both sadder and less predictable is the continuing decline of the Liberal Democrats. Having previously lost sight of what Liberal Democracy is by opposing a referendum on Scottish independence (any surviving Liberal Democrats please refer to the preamble to the constitution of, er, the Liberal Democrats for clarification on this), the near-surreal decline of Liberalism continues with Tavish Scott's outspoken attack on, er, releasing a convicted killer in the last stages of terminal cancer according to the rules adopted by, er, the Liberal Democrats when they were in coalition government.
In case there is anyone out there who can't remember what Liberalism is actually like, imagine Jim Wallace was the Justice Secretary. I'm sure you can take it from there...
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#18
"It's all about damaging the Scottish Goverment, does anyone else find that sick?"
Oh yes, Thomas, it is completely abhorrent.
In the current debate, Ian Gray begins with "Last week the Scottish Government made a wrong decision, in the wrong way."
Ah, what? And who exactly are you Mr Gray? God?
I and many other people consider the decision to be the correct one. Many other people do not.
Mr Gray cannot even summon the civility to acknoweldge the inextricable moral complexities of this decision, which render it neither wholly right nor wholly wrong.
It is a matter of personal opnion as to whether this decision was right or wrong. I find this kind of posturing by Mr Gray to be completely beneath contempt. And for him to be using this as a stick to beat the SNP is so so very very wrong.
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That was an absolutely stunning display by The Justice Secretary - he held his nerve and delivered convincing and compelling rationale for his decision.
The unionist cabal have done nothing to make the SNP administration flinch by repeatedly asking the same questions of Mcaskill and to hear Labour MSP's voice their support to his decision will resonate within the ranks of Labour for sure.
On a much deeper note - I have an odd feeling about this whole saga. It seems to me that the Lockerbie case has driven a wedge between what some will see and come to see as a compassionate and merciful Scotland and a greedy UK intent on oil deals.
If Americans ever had difficulty with the distinction of "British" people originating from England or Scotland - then surely now everyone in the world will soon know that the Scottish government does not answer to the British Government (at least not in terms of it's justice system - which lets face it - isn't that easy to understand unless your acquainted with the Scotland Act - something most Americans might confuse with being vaguely Shakespearean in origin)
Releasing al-Megrahi on compassionate grounds has provided a lot of negative publicity for Scotland and for the UK. Anyone looking at the facts and not jerking their knee however, would notice the stark contrast between an SNP administration that has never met a Libyan Official to the UK Govt hosting a sprawl of dinner dates with Saif al Islam Gaddafi and his father.
Yes, this saga has put Scotland firmly on the Map as an independently operated, free-thinking country - and breaking the assumption that being Scottish is British is a huge victory for Salmond and the SNP - whether it was intentional or not.
The UK's time is limited.
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#34 Diabloandco
Nicol Stephen is as irrelevant as his party.
If I lived in Aberdeen South I'd give him a fair old tonguelashing at his next surgery.
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We are well used to politicians seeking political advantage from the difficult decisions others must take. On this occasion however, when the eyes of the world were focused on us, we would expect them to unite in the defence and promotion of our system of justice and values of compassion, encompassed within our democracy.
It is utterly bewildering for me and many others to witness the extraordinary attacks on a Scottish Justice Secretary, on a world stage, by the political opponents of the SNP.
It is disgusting that Gray, Goldie and Scott and prepared to sacrifice Scotland's international reputation just to try and get one over on the SNP.
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Decent enough performance from MacAskill, almost no political digs with the exception of when he turned the tables on Tavish, who had suggested that anyone could now expect to be freed on compassionate grounds, by pointing out that Jim Wallace had freed a child killer on compassionate release.
Poor Tavish did not expect such a retort and lookede crestfallen as he muttered back the words "cheap shot"......pure poetic justice.
Worst performance:
Nicol Stephen - By far the most disgusting of all so called 'questions', a speech that had it's roots firmly in the infamous and false 'sleaze' accusation. Nicol had clearly set out to make yet more baseless and extremely unpleasant remarks and did so before being cut off by the Presiding Officer.
Best performance:
Malcolm Chisolm - Drew gasps and wide applause when he basically spat on his Unionist and Labour counterparts for blatantly policising this serious matter.
Christine Grahame - Kept to her principles by demanding the Scottish Government publish everything they possibly can on the Lockerbie trial evidence. Maybe wasn't the ideal time for Christine to ask Kenny such a question but I'm glad she did.
Stupidest question:
Labour MSP [name I forget] asking what MacAskill would do if Megrahi fails to turn up for his monthly video conference as required as part of his release. MacAskill simply reminded the buffoon that Megrahi had been sent home to die.
Goldie:
Wasn't sure who she was supposed to attack, MacAskill or London Labour. Ended up making a strange assertion that MacAskill spoke only for the SNP when he made the decision - clearly untrue given that there has been support across Scotland for the decision.
Stepped into her own bear trap by suggesting that Scottish Health Service should have cared for Megrahi as he was dying. MacAskill was prepared for this one and pointed out that placing this man in a hospice to die wouldn't go down well with the families of existing patients.
Gray:
He had the first question and it was basically a rehash of the last week. Labour would have kept him in prison, Scotland has been shamed and MacAskill's handling was a shambles.
Special mention for Bill Aitken who ended up attacking London Labour by mentioning Brown's meeting with Gaddafi, Mandelson's Corfu meeting with Gaddafi's son and the 'Deal in the Desert'.
Fib Teller:
Margaret Curran in her question angrily rejecting what she described as a MacAskill claim that those who don't agree with the decision didn't show compassion. It would have been a fair enough comment if MacAskill had said it - he didn't, Curran just made it up.
Kenny MacAskill stood above everyone in the chamber today, Malcolm Chisholm reminded many of us why it was that we once voted Labour.
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I hear that after the meeting closed The Labour MSP's headed home and Malcolm Chisolm (well done that man) headed for Coventry.
How refreshing to hear an opposition MSP not out to score petty party political advantage and what a stark contrast to the risible Nicol Stephen. It defies belief that he has got worse since Trumpgate but hearing him speak today was proof that sadly he has. A lot worse.
The murmuring of "where's Gordon?" is getting louder. His holiday fortnight which may or may not have consisted of some quiet gloating whilst repeating his mantra of "nothing to do with me mate" is coming to an end.
They seek him here, they seek him there.....
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Questions still to be answered (so goes the official opposition line):
1. There was no requirement legally to visit Megrahi in person. Why then did the justice secretary do this?
- the intention here is clearly to imply a deal done between MacAskil and Megrahi. Political expediency of the worst ilk.
2. Leaks remain unexplained. Why was the BBC so sure and accurate prior to the offical annoucement of the release?
- the implication here is incompetence to match the politicing as implied in point one.
3. Scotland was unable to provide the NHS treatment to Megrahi? Scotlands police would have been unable to provide 48 police officers?
- the aim here is to imply that the SNP justice Secretary is talking nonsense.
Now, in my opinion points one and two are needing stronger rebuttle by macAskil- but I condemn the Labour and Liberal parties for attempting to turn these question into some kind of tool to imply political incompetence on the SNP. This is neither the issue nor the time to do this.
Point three however does seem to be potentially the most problematic for MacAskil.
HOWEVER:
Why was the original 'deal in the desert' done by Blair and Labour? And why was the request for an exception for Megrahi ignored when negotiating prisoner transfer?
Why did Mandelson meet the Libyan leader twice in three months? Was this merely coincidence or as Bill Aitken asked have the SNP and the Scottish government been treated as a pawn to Labour and Americas oil games internationally?
These questions need answering too. Goldie and Aitken were right to remind people of Labours unanswered questions.
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#4 Deanthetory
An interesting article in this weeks Spectator magazine from Fraser Nelson...
Perhaps you'd like to give it a read and get back to me?
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It is clear from the media circus and political circus from opposition in Scotland that Brian, the BBC, Labour, Libdems and Tories are out of touch with Scotland, and out of touch with Scottish opinion.
They are too busy trying to bring down Scotland that they can't tell fact from fiction.
Pathetic.
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Brian Taylor, BBC Scotland Political Editor, for now!
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A big storm in a teacup methinks. The comments that have been made are astonishing.
e.g "The yanks will boycott Scotland." I don't think so. I am sure that in reality very few are actually bothered and those that are will get over it quickly. It will fall from the front of the political radar/news media very soon.
"We have sent out the wrong message to terrorists" I don't think so either. Imagine it if you will. Some little Bin Laden-ite plotting terror will now (if we believe what we are told) scratch his chin whilst thumbing through his atlas and decide to plant a bomb in Scotland. Why? Well, after all if he is caught and convicted and sentenced to jail (and can't qualify for the transfer order which the righteous set up) and does contract a terminal illness and has less than three months to live then the nice Scots minister will look kindly on him and let him go home to his mammy. Aye right!
"He only served 11 point something days for each person who died" ... and another 90 or even 180 days behind bars which would not even add one more day per victim would have made it all better? I don't think so.
When it all comes down to it Mr McAskill made a brave and principalled decision. One which (to paraphrase the scriptures) even Solomon in all his raiment would have found difficult to get right.
I am glad that the opposition are brewing up a storm here. They will reap what they sow. If they had any principles (which unlike Mr McAskill they do not)they would take the thing to its logical extreme and make it an issue of confidence. After all how can one have confidence in a government which has so traduced the good name of Scotland. But we all know they will not - the simple reason being that they would take a pounding in any ensuing election. So they sit on the sidelines and carp. How terribly "old world" Scottish!
When the dust settles down - dust that is mostly created by politicians and the media - the SNP government will emerge at home and abroad with strengthened respect.
If this is a measure of what to expect from an SNP government - bring it on.
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As a piece of grand political theatre this afternoons debate was distinctly underwhelming.Kenny MacAskill fairly simply set out his position and actions. What passes for political opposition in Scotland, was left to Annabelle Goulding, in her best shoolmarmish fashion to deliver a fairly obvious swipe, not at the Scottish Government, but at Gordon Brown! The performances of Ian Gray and Tavish Scott were notable only for their lack of conviction, in addition to their ability to rise to 0the occasion. Additional inputs from the Conservative side were totally irelevant, from the Liberal Democrats unclear and from the Labour side an indivation of the rightward drift that has so transformed this party of the "Workers". In truth, any SNP interventions did not require to be of a high standard to fend of the opposition punches and ideed most conformed to this.If the opposition were seeking to suggest that this issue was one they could evploit, well in my humble opimion, they failed to do so by a considerable margin. In conclusion, this debate failed to provoke one of this parliament's finest hours, but instead seemed to reveal a second rate copy of Westminister.
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#47 oldbuthopeful
"serious security implications"
I suspect that the Police also gave MacAskill a much wider briefing on the security implications. I'm rather glad to have a Justice Secretary who interpreted the entirety of the risk to the people of Scotland.
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MacAskill stared down all the snarling aggressors. He refused to be intimidated or cowed.
How many times have TRUE Scots - people who were prepared to put it all on the line for their country - done that?
If the "opposition parties" persist in trying to twist this whole tragic saga into a self-serving political bandwagon they risk raising the ire of all true Scots at their own political peril.
Carry on as they are doing and they will elevate MacAskill to the status of a martyr for Scottish values.
The SNP - already in a formidably strong position on account of their performance in government - will reap a landslide victory at the next Holyrood elections.
The would-be bullies have been warned!
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Should not we English continue to support and subsidise layers of democratic representation both here in the UK and Europe without complaint. We have so many Scots, Welsh and Northern Irish MPs determining what happens in England, and so many Eurpoeans setting legal parameters over what we can and can't do nowdays that I think the English are the least influencial people in Europe- we just pay for everyone else's democracy . This immoral decision is down to the Scots - freeing a man who was found guilty of cold blooded mass murder - the mind boggles!
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What happened to my previous post?
Just finished watching the Holyrood Statement, a good performance from MacAskill, with only one or 2 minor slips. Interesting that the Tories although making it clear they did not agree with the decision focused on Labour as being compliant in creating the situation in the first place. Liberals were frankly all over the place, bit of a mixed bag from Labour some silly statements but mostly serious and focussed questions. All in all I thought Parliament struck the right tone for this important session. Looking at other sources it does appear as if this story is begining to drop off the radar in America, perhaps not surprising given the some what limited comments from Obama and Clinton. The rest of the world does not seem to be interested.
MacAskill made a difficult decision, and in my opinion came to the correct conclusion, although I think he will face severe comments about the terms of the Licence Megrahi was released upon, and possible the implications for security that he cited as influencing his decision to send Megrahi home rather than in Scotland.
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#50 minceandmealie
The 11th word in your post is so accurate :-)
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50. minceandmealie
A post well made. The decline of the Liberals is trully sad. Scotland was once their bastion of strength. Now they are doing well to get above 13% in a Scottish opinion poll.
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#50 "It is all too sadly easy to mock Iain Gray, whore recent remarks..."
Freudian slip par excellence!
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Agree with many others posting here - there's an argument to be made both for against the decision of the Justice Secretary and I would have hoped that those in opposition (and some did) could have seen that.
The fact that Tavish Scott and Nicol Stephen would seem to me to mean either that they are not fit to be Lib Dems beacuse their beliefs are neither liberal nor democratic, or they are not fit to be MSPS for any party since they went against their own principles for minor point scoring.
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I'm not a Scot, yet I applaud Kenny MacAskill's brave and difficult decision. I understand the ire of many people about letting a convicted mass murderer free, even for a short time. However, it's important that the UK at least remains a human, compassionate state, able to hold it's head up in the world community. Whatever the issue, when the judiciary makes a decision based on human values, it's always the right one, because we're nothing if our values are not those. If tinpot dictatorships choose to lionise this man, that's their business.
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The debate shone no new light, but was suitably constrained, with a careful, sombre performance by McAskill. I detect a slight change in the mood music following the FBI and Chiefs of Staff comments. On the streets I believe such intemperate, and ill-informed, contributions have re-enforced the view that McAskill was willing to stand up to USA pressure, in a calm and balanced manner. A trait to be admired, even by some who disagree with his decision.
What has been entirely missing from media coverage, so far as I can see, is any rigorous scrutiny of the motives of the US government critics. I suspect what they particularly fear is any UN or UK inquiry where they are asked to release documents, including those they would not release to the defence.
As for the opposition, Iain Grey presents a clear position that he would, like Tony Blair, be swayed by the view of the US even at the cost of acting unjustly. In the longer run, I suspect the aprobrium will increase on Labour MSPs .
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This now look's if anything like that it is going to end up with both Scottish Labour and Labour at Westminister having egg upon their faces in this affair.
Here today at Hollyrood we had the Scottish Labour leader pro-claiming that the Scottish Justice Minister did the wrong thing in releasing the Lockerbie Bomber, while at the same time it is well known that Gordon Brown wanted this release to go ahead too please and appease his new found Libyan "Oil" Freinds.
It remains to be seen over the next few day's how Gordon Brown will be able to face both way's at once in trying to both agree with what the Americans think while argeeing in terms also, that this was a Scottish decision based upon Medical evidence, after his meeting with both the Libyan Leaders request along with Brown also keeping the Libyan Government informed every step of the way WITHOUT ANY WESTMINSTER REJECTION'S whatsoever in expressing any Views to the contrary, to the Scottish Justice Minister prior to MacAskills decisions as to whether or not to release Megrahi on compassionate grounds.
While it has been correct that MacAskill has based HIS decision upon the Medical evidence as presented to him, IT IS WRONG also by the same token that Gordon Brown should place himself in a position of having to face two ways at once with attempting with both agreeing with the Americans view points or entertaining their views, while also agreeing with the opposite opinions of his Lybian Freinds, both at the same time.
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Mr MacAskill said: "We took clear advice from the deputy chief constable of Strathclyde Police force - our largest police authority."
He said 48 officers would have been required to "simply to cope with him being in the house".
What? Scottish police servicement are unable to provide 48 people, but are able to police football matches round the clock during season time? This was weak by MacAskil from a perfectly reasonable request by Annabel Goldie- Goldie's question and point hardly deserved to be mocked as patently 'ludicrous'
House Arrest in Scotland was an alternative to compassionate release. There were compassionate alternatives to freeing him to Libya.
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I think this decision will make the SNP stronger. The decision made by the Justice Secretary was right. His decision will not please everyone. If Megrahi would have had a low key arrival this issue might have been forgotten by now. Scotland is not responsible for the way the Libyans behaved in welcoming the prisoner. Look at the video, you can see the man is frail and sick. He was not jubilating but he probably just have to go with the flow of what was happening. Where is the Prime minister, Lord Mandelson and others, now no one want to stand with the SNP in the decision they have made. However, i believe the future will tell that the decision was right and appropriate.
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As a Welshman keen to see his Assembly one day gain the powers of the Scottish Government, I sincerely congratulate Scotland - rather, the SNP and particularly Kenny MacAskill - for a strong, honourable, principled stance in a horribly sensitive affair.
Having said that, I agree with the (impressively many) commentators here who are disgusted at the politicising of this thing by the opposition parties. It is a bizarre spectacle indeed - the SNP show world-class political maturity while at the same time Labour et al. display a grotesque obsequiousness to the party line, no matter how expedient it is.
I dearly hope that the view of many here - that the SNP's reputation will gain from this - proves correct. I also would prefer that my cynical belief that too much of the world (particularly America) is too barbaric to side with MacAskill be proven incorrect. We shall see.
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Laura Maxwell on BBC Radio Scotland imploring anyone who disagrees with Macaskill's decision to please get in touch, seems every text is in support.
Bill Aitken states that testers and phone callers have been organised by the SNP.
Still no hard scrutiny of Iain Gray, none at all.
Despite the clear evidence that Scots of all political persuasions support this decision and that the so called 'American Outcry' is nothing of the sort the media up here appear stuck in the same groove unable to get out.
Robbie Dinwoodie has been the most balanced of them all, special mention for Ian Bell.
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Talk about a small nation ' punching above its weight !'Not being aware of the implications of one's actions/ decisions is an immature political trait . Scotland's standing in the US is at an all time low - they will stop buying Scottish goods and investing in Scotland - so be it . I just hope the rest of us in the UK don't have to suffer for it, as we had no say in the decision.Nor should we have to make up the shortfall by further subsidies to Scotland - you can't have authority without responsibility - it could be a hard lesson.
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Trump was the precursor for this behaviour from Unionist MSP's, the media let them off Scot free.
This latest show from Unionists, who are again making up allegations in desperation and risk damaging Scottish politics and democracy, should be the last straw and should result in some serious rebukes from within the Scottish media.
Tonight's Newsnight Scotland will not feature Iain Gray being subjected to anything like the same level of abrupt questioning that MacAskill has faced. Tomorrow's newspaper headlines will not criticise these Unionist MSP's.
It remains to be seen what prominence the newspapers will give to Malcolm Chisholm's incredible statements of support for MacAskill, adding to those from Henry McLeish.
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An excellent performance by McAskill and a rare glimse of opposition decency from Chisolm.
Despite the resound tanking their parties received in the chamber today, Baker, Rumble and McLetchie are a sad reflection of our opposition politicians, their combined stance at the end of the debate was odious and smacks of desparation.
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58. At 4:17pm on 24 Aug 2009, GAberdeen
"Perhaps you'd like to give it a read and get back to me?"
I have done as you requested and concluded the following:
Frasier Neilson is firstly arguing that MacAskil released Megrahi on 'compassionate grounds' for favourable media coverage- "He has already been rewarded by headlines at home "MacAskil to show mercy" is the splash headline of today's Scotsman".
This Nielson point sounds stupied. Looks Stupied and is stupied. MacAskil wouldnt have sought to release Megrahi on 'compassionate grounds' for favourable media coverage 'splash' in Neilsons wording. This is a deeply hostile anti-SNP Scottish media establishment we are talking about and I doubt MacAskil would be nieve enough not to realise this.
Nielsons points next concerning Megrahi's cancer is equally silly.
He writes "I say there is no medical reason for this: the cancer treatment in Libya is hardly better than in Scotland"
Yes Scotlands NHS treatment services are surely superior than any Libyan counterpart. But what is Neilsons' point? That a man with uncurable cancer should be held in the UK- because Scotlands NHS treatments are better than in Libya? (Last time I looked up terminal it meant just that).
He then talks about the debate over "Scottish Government" or "Scottish Executive"- which is a clear dig attempting to imply the SNP trivialise all issues to get publicity. Its a link back to the first point about MacAskil and the SNP pursuit (in Nielsons mind) of media coverage on matter the cost.
Now I like Nielson believe megrahi to be guilty, but unlike Nielson in his article for the Spectator I do not reject the potential that I may be wrong.
Also Neilsons' article is weak to the point of levity. I know a better defence against providing 'compassionate release' must exist somewhere- all I know is this Fraser Nielson article as per August Thursday, 20th August 2009 isnt it.
I presume this is the article you meant me to read and get back to you about? : http://www.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/5277628/a-bleak-day-for-scotland.thtml
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I do wonder at the calibre of questions/ statements put forward by Lib/lab.
Mr Chisolm gains respect.
Can't say the same for the rest of the opposition .
Pity the Ambassador for Malawi was'nt there ,or did I miss him?
How about egg- on- face Lord Foulkes?? Was he there?
(Wonder if he'd like a private meeting with General Sir Richard Dannatt?Or perhaps Sir Richard would like a private meeting with him!)
Mr MacAskill was excellent.
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Brian put a new post up on this topic - while comment 61 had still not been moderated!
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The Opposition at Holyrood have brass necks. Most of them are List MSP's - that is, not elected. For them now to condemn Kenny Macaskill is pure hypocracy. The Americans also have brass necks ( although everyone already knows this!). How dare they dictate to us! They who resort to torture to extract " confessions"; who keep folk on Death Row for twenty years or more, before executing them. Barbaric!. But then, they have always been loud-mouthed, holier-than-though, do as we sayers. If you don't believe me, try working with them!!
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74.
Dean, football matches do not take place "around the clock."
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#65 billbasil
congratualtions on winning the ashes.
#1 The English are not the purse holders of the United Kingdom, nor are they any better or worse than the remnant members of the United Kingdom - or so we are so often told
#2 As I recall it - it was a Conservative Government with a majority of MPs in England that passed and ratified the Maastricht treaty that gave rise to your infernal European Union - If you want someone to blame you need but look in the mirror
#3
Lets see what the OED says;
immoral: adjective
1. Deliberately violating accepted principles of right and wrong
2. Not adhering to ethical or moral principles.
example (they considered colonialism immoral)
compassion: noun
1. A deep awareness of and sympathy for another's suffering
2. The humane quality of understanding the suffering of others and wanting to do something about it
Synonyms
Pity
I think the first more accurately relates to England and it's history of subjugation and murder.
The second is what you'll find enshrined in our laws in Scotland.
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#65 billbasil
"I think the English are the least influencial (sic) people in Europe"
One can do no more than utter the most sincerely heartfelt: "hear! hear!"
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If there is any boycotting to be done, I think that the livid Americans and the UK Government should show their principles by boycotting Lybia. Who am I kidding? They're too keen to get the business contracts and the oil so instead imperialist bullyboy tactics are directed at the Scottish Justice Secretary. I, for one, am proud to be Scottish and proud of the decision to release Megrahi on compassionate grounds.
I ask myself what kind of country do I want to live in? In Scotland where compassion and mercy are shown to terminally ill prisoners or the good old USA with rendition flights, torture, and the subversion of democratically elected governments which don't subscribe to the US view of the world. Hypocrisy and arrogance on a breathtaking scale!
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Well now we have it, labour, the public schoolboy torries and the muddle liberals have shown us what we have known for a long time, they are a waste of time, effort and space. Please please please the people who vote for them will you put us out of our misery and not vote for them anymore.
This debate deserved better than they delivered today, well done KMc for taking the correct decision and standing up for some of the things that are good about Scotland. Shame on the Americans for their double standards on this issue but even greater shame on New labour, The Liberal Party and The Conservatives for their total lack of support for Scotland, Scottish Justice and our society as a whole. How much longer will it take their supporters to realise that they just do not represent their interests or those of Scotland.
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#74 deanthetory
"Scottish police servicement are unable to provide 48 people, but are able to police football matches round the clock during season time?"
You persist in hearing only what you want to hear then trying to convince the rest of us that only what you hear is reality.
MacAskill made it crystal clear: it wasn't decided on the basis of monetary cost or availability of police officers.
Keeping al-Megrahi under effective "house arrest" was an unacceptable security risk FOR THE PUBLIC according to the expert police advice given to MacAskill.
Do try to keep up, or better still, take off those Tory blue-coloured sunspecs for once and just open your eyes and ears.
You never know - maybe a little balance and common sense will make an appearance?!!
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#81 Deanthetory
No, I did not mean that bias and inflammatory article.
I meant the magazine one - I'm pretty sure I said that before. The spectator publishes online and magazine content - the magazine content is on the magazine tab.
Found here
http://www.spectator.co.uk/the-magazine/the-week/5275838/politics.thtml
To ruin the surprise - and ensure you find the right article - Nelson is talking about the coming "alliance" between the conservatives and the SNP.
This is the article I'd hoped you'd read.
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#77 Online_Ed
Bill Aitken states that testers and phone callers have been organised by the SNP. If BA thinks that, he's never met my lot of the SNP. They'd be hard put to organise the proverbial party in the brewery Holyrood once was. The SNP accounts filed with the Electoral Commission don't show much of an organisation either, in membership or money.
No BA has got it wrong; it's just people like me that think the Unionist have fouled up yet again so we've got past the grumbling stage and we're on to expressing our thoughts.
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I stand by the scottish government it's justice system and it's ability to show the whole world what true compassion is America and the rest of the world watch and learn good on you Kenny MacAskill America keep your nose out and lets see yous try some of those poor men that youve held unjustly for so long
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#74 - "What? Scottish police servicement are unable to provide 48 people, but are able to police football matches round the clock during season time?"
Football matches aren't policed 24 hours a day, 7 days a week and don't have other residents that are terminal. The last thing these hostel patients would want would be 40 - 50 policemen trasping about, whilst there relatives need to go through a body cavity search just to come visit.
Auntie Bella has really let herself, and the tories, down. Once the anger has subsided and this decision is viewed in the cold light of day, everyone of the opposition leaders are going to be viewed as trying to score cheap political points through this, and that leaves a bad taste in the mouth of any right thinking person. They are all equally sullied.
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89. Bruce206:
"Well now we have it, labour, the public schoolboy torries and the muddle liberals have shown us what we have known for a long time, they are a waste of time, effort and space."
What has my schooling got to do with anything? Why do you hate people whose parents paid for their schooling? Is that chip on your shoulder a tough burden? When will you understand that such childish pointscoring as 'public-schoolboy' just makes you look incredibly nieve, out of touch.
Not least because the vast majority of Conservative party members are NOT public schoolboys. This is merely the perception you wish to push.
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91. GAberdeen
This Neilson chap is simply incredible. And thats not in a good way! Get this he states that politicians in Westminster are only too happy with devolution as it allows them to escape "the network of feuds, grudges and grandstanding which comprises Scottish politics"
-Yeh, because the political classes down in Westminster never ever engage in such appauling forms of politics. Mr Grey and the Scottish Labour party simply dont hold grudges- especially not against the tories and SNP (who dared to beat them soundly in an election up here).
But Fasier Neilson goes on in spectacular style...
"It has done so thanks to the spectacularly inept handling of the case of Abdelbaset Ali al-Megrahi, who, just eight years ago, was found guilty of 270 counts of murder in the Lockerbie bombings and has been diagnosed with terminal prostate cancer. It is a political football that the SNP could not resist giving a kick."
I am sorry, I dont agree with the release of Megrahi either, but to suggest that MacAskil was playing politics over this issue is deeply wishful thinking on Nielsons part. All I ask is for him to present his evidence. Then I will stop laughing at him and his 'journalism'.
"It is hard to argue a medical case for Megrahi’s release, given that cancer treatment in Tripoli is immeasurably worse than in Scotland"
This line I dealt with when he recycled it into the other article I read. But I will say this: Megrahi's cancer is terminal- what part of this medical advice does Frasier Neilson find hard to accept? And what on earth is the point of keeping a man with un-treatable cancer in Scotland, simply because "our healthcare is better than yours" thinking?
Its incredible that this man thinks such articles pass as coherent journalism. Nielson must know Iain Gallagher very well undeed.
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#65 billbasil. good evening, thanks for your post which simply highlights so many basic points.
English & Scottish thinking,values & standards are becoming so different widening almost daily.
getting rid of the Scots is in as much your hands as it is in ours as is getting England out of the EU.
Can i suggest that nothing ever gets done about these things in England because you waste all your energy being Mr Angry instead of being constructive.
Cheers, Sid
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94. ForteanJo
Sorry but keeping Megrahi in a hostel, or under house arrest in Scotland is simply not a 'ludicrous' suggestion. And MacAskil couldnt answer when asked what the advice was when he considered these option alternatives! He simply stated churlishly that "these decisions were mine, and mine alone" and equally irrelevently "such suggestions are ludicrous"
Yeh, so silly are these alternatives that MacAskil couldnt tell parliament what the advice was that he recieved.
Sorry but MacAskil did have an excellent day today. It was far from the hanging that many were undoubtably hoping for on the Labour benches- but MacAskil didnt answer everything. This is one question I feel he mishandled. But dont get me wrong, he had a trully excellent day.
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#98 deanthetory
The police briefing on this would have covered all aspects of the public risk. A number of factors will probably relate to national security matters which can't be mentioned in public.
All this is assumption you understand, but I do know that the previous Government received such briefings.
If the police advice contained what I think it might have, then Kenny might turn out to be that rare politician - one who is willing to risk his career, to keep the rest of us safe.
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#96 Deanthetory
Yeah - He's some piece of work - isn't he?
I started to read the Spectator as it's always on the seatback pocket when I fly with Eastern Airways. I have to admit some of the articles I read earlier in the year were quite good insofar as the journalism was concerned.
Did you perchance happen upon the anecdote of Goerge Osbourne being seated next to Salmond on a flight to Edinburgh from London?
Advice was asked by Dode on securing a higher majority of the Scots Vote to which Slamond replied "stop defending the union with England and become more sympathetic to Scottish Nationalism"
Nelson was under the impression that Auntie Bella had been doing this all along. I know you think highly of the Woman - I'd like to court your opinion.
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Having watched the Holyrood Satement and the Q&A, I thought MacAskill handled the session very well. In his responses he gave an insight into just how thorough he had been, his grasp of the details clearly showed that he was on top of his brief. The 2 main queries he had were about keeping Megrahi in Scotland, and visiting Megrahi in prison. His responses show that he was thoughtful and diligent in the execution of his duties. Having consulted with the Police who advised that security for Megrahi would be a considerable effort not to mention the obvious significant disruption to other residents be that in a hospice, hospital or house. Can you imagine the "circus" that would develope around any location Megrahi was kept. His rationale for visiting Megrahi were that as per the legislation where an application for Prisoner Transfer is made by a government the prisoner has the right to make representation. Megrahi chose to do so and to represent himself. Mr Grays inability to grasp this simple reality demonstrates a very limited ability on his part.
Sensible pragmatic and correct.
I think Mr MacAskill has brought great credit to the Scottish Government and has demonstrated great integrity, the ones trying to make small political capital are the ones bring shame on Scotland.
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Forgot to mention the other matter that emerged that I found interesting, of those prisoners that have been refused compassionate discharge it has only ever been because they did not match the medical criteria
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#98 - "Sorry but keeping Megrahi in a hostel, or under house arrest in Scotland is simply not a 'ludicrous' suggestion."
I never claimed it was. It is, however, an impractical and unrealistic suggestion, possibly verging on ludicrous. Let's be honest, if Megrahi lived beyond 3 months, the nat-bashers would hound MacAskill over the cost (which would run into the millions).
And would you wan't your dying gran/auntie/mother to see out her days in the same hostel as Megrahi? Would you subject yourself to the necessary security screening just to pop in and see her?
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100. GAberdeen
"Nelson was under the impression that Auntie Bella had been doing this all along. I know you think highly of the Woman - I'd like to court your opinion."
Well I stand accused of being one of Nielsons aforementioned "vichy tories".
Nielson says "According to a recent survey of Tory candidates, 46 per cent say they would not be ‘uncomfortable about Scotland becoming independent’". Well what is wrong with this? What it tells me is that 46% of Conservative prospective candidates are pragmatic on the issue.
Nielson may be one of the 'die hard unionist' blue nosed lot- but I am pleased that my party is increasingly open minded. The position is now increasingly 'if the Scots want independence let them have it'- quite right, who are the home-counties Thatcherites to dictate to us Scottish tories, or even the Scottish nation.
If Scotland wants independence- 46% of those polled basically believe they shoul have it. Its democratic, its pragmatic and its open minded. Still the committment to the union remains, but its less about the means being justified by the end (that being pertpetual union). Its rather changed- Goldie and her more centrist wing of the tory party stands for the union; but only if it benefits us.
Neilson doesnt like this moderate stance on unionism- so I am a "vich tory" then? Its incredible.
But I continue:
Neilson seems to believe that Goldie is an apparachik of nationalism. Its silly. She understands the nature of minority proportional government, and is negotiating with the SNP who are in office. She has already acheived much of what we wanted. Not least town centre regeneration, business rates cuts, and has supported the SNP push for more police officers. All achieved thanks to Goldie being reasonable, open to negotiation.
What Frasier wants I think is a return to the Lord Forsyths' extremism on constitutional matters. Well I am a well known Heathite, pro-european moderate who agrees firmly with Goldie, and her policy of putting Scotland before petty ideology.
Nielson can take his tripe and run and jump.
But it is true that the Scottish character is more nationalist now than ever- so it cant hurt us that Goldie is moving us away from being 'the unionist party' in favour of 'the SNPs' negotiating partners'.
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#104 Deanthetory
I wrote to Annabel Goldie a while back (maybe 4 months) asking the exact thing your describing - whether she was committed to the Union, To Cameron's one state ideology or to the people of Scotland.
I put it to her that if the SNP brought Scotland to independence - wether she would seek to contribute to the sovereignity of that or if she'd be commited to reversing it.
I never recieved a reply - but the way you describe it - she might be in favour of it.
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Just watched Brian's incredible contribution to the LBC 10pm News - I didn't recognise it as representing the events I witnessed today.
A 1-sided montage of the Opposition Accusations, and no examples of them being beaten back convincingly! - Not even an honourable mention of MacAskils rock solid performance.
Very disappointing indeed Brian. - And where was Chisholm, the star of the show in some respects?
I'm sorry, but that was a very unrepresentative report tonight. - I am disappoined! You are better than that. - Kenny wouldn't have caved in to the Beeb message leke that. :)
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My God! Kirsty Wark's opening!
This bias has got to be addressed.
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Wark now trying to project the hope that Megrahi dies soon onto Salmond.
Dear oh dear.
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Newsnight now comes with fruit-loop John Bolton!
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This comment has been referred to the moderators. Explain.
I thought Kirsty Wark wound up quite subdued interviewing Salmond.
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Where Megrahi spends the rest of his days is a matter of tiny consequence.The fact that the opposition are trying to make something of it merely indicates the weaknesas of their attack.
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A bizarre evening's reporting from the Beeb, 10pm & Newsnight with Jack's Kirsty leading. - Did they right the script before events, and haven't noticed what really happened today?
Some statements even more dodgy than Blair's Dossier, especially the dis-information about medical prognosis which they gifted to the Labour MSP. - I think they inflated his credibility, especially considering he did not possess current medical assessment.
Blatant promotion of an Agenda by the Beeb. - Shameful.
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Uh-oh, referred to the moderators for harshly criticing the character of John Bolton. Shame on me.
still, it's always fun to see him lose it, as he did on Newsnight. He was beelin' and his wee face went bright red! :-D
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Today it is reported his cancer may give him several years and not the 3 months used in the SNP's decision. Maybe the higher power MacAskill refers to will show some mercy.
82% of Americans think the decision was wrong and may boycott Scotland. Perhaps they will show mercy and still spend their $$$ on scotch and visits to support our economy.
The opposition in Scotland may show mercy and not bring the governemnt down or demand resignations.
And what do we Scots end up doing - turning to the one thing we know and can get true comfort from - English bashing.
A time when being Scottish is fast becoming an embarrassing admission.
Show mercy to our English cousins and unite against terror.
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The elephant in the room for Mr Gray.
1. Assume Mr al-Megrahi is Guilty.
He played his part as an agent of the Libyan government who brought down PA103. Oh... that same Libyan government that Brown & Mandelson are new best friends with. So if he is guilty, how can Gray commend the "normalisation" in relations with the authors of the atrocity but condemn the decision to release the person who followed their instructions. Remember, the trial judges relied on al-Megrahi using a false passport supplied to him by the Libyan Government.
2. But then, assume, just for a moment, that Mr al-Megrahi is Not Guilty.
He was stitched-up to take a politically convenient fall and therefore deserves to spend what time he has left with his family.
Either way, in choosing to critizise the Scottish Government's decision to release him, what argument can Mr Gray make that does not place him in an impossible position?
Prior to Mr MacAskill's decision for compassionate release, we knew what Annabelle Goldie thought - "let him die in jail". We knew of Tavish Scott's very illiberal views. But I personally knew absolutely nothing about what Mr Gray thought about the subject. In my view, his behaviour in this respect is beneath contempt. Why wait until now to declare your position? Unless, of course, your position is simply... the opposite of whatever decision was made!!
A lack of courage! A lack of integrity! A lack of what it takes to lead!
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112 sneckedagain
"Where Megrahi spends the rest of his days is a matter of tiny consequence."
I'm stunned. Try telling that to anyone that was directly involved.
So, if it is as you say "a matter of tiny consequence", then you would not mind him spending the rest of his life in jail?
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A bit of constructive feedback Brian. Please don't bother with the commentary during parliamentary debates. I couldn't hear the MSP for what you were saying and I couldn't hear you for what the MSP was saying. I know presenters are meant to present, but that didn't really work.
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#118 I agree. - Can I also add that it would be good to have balanced reporting of the events on the BBC news, from Brian yesterday.
I wish some of Mr MacA's backdone could be found in the BBC reporting team.
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Brian, I wonder if you could help me with a question which the BBC have been suppressing on other forums:-
We know about the shop in Malta which sold the clothes in the bomber's suitcase. - But, exactly which shops in Tripoli keep a stock of Saltires for impromptu receptions?
Seems increasingly odd that there were Saltires in the crowd...and that it has been made the focus of such media attention. - Surely they were not planted by a UK Passport Holder.?
These Saltires are being rubbed in MacAskill's face...but how did they get there? - Off topic, strictly speaking, but since it's been moderated off other Beeb boards I wondered if you'd like to help us out.
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Sorry about my typo regarding Iain Gray at #50. It should of course have read "whose recent remarks combine bluster, ignorance and hypocrisy in equal measure." This is still true, of course.
At first glance it is hard to explain how a former campaign director for Oxfam, whose very occasional non-partisan rhetoric generally focuses on the plight of the poorest and most vulnerable in society, should advocate the "let him rot and die in jail" stance advocated by John Bolton on Newsnight last night. It is even stranger when it is public knowledge that his political bosses Brown and Mandelson were in favour of transferring Megrahi to Libya, and were chumming about with Gaddafi and his son repectively earlier this year.
So if it doesn't seem to chime with Gray's moral background, or with his political bosses' stance, why does he take the John Bolton line? The answer is, of course, because Salmond and the SNP took the other line, and Labour mistakenly thought "THIS IS IT. WE ARE GOING TO GET THEM ON THIS ONE." This red-mist-over-the-eyes response probably also explains Gray's bizarre media comment about how if he was First Minister he would not have released Megrahi. (Jack McConnell also sees red mist every time he hears the word Salmond, I reckon, which is sort of understandable as Salmond was his nemesis. Much to my surprise, of all current and former Labour leaders it is Henry McLeish who has grown in stature in recent times, and he continues to act with some dignity.)
Blind hatred of the SNP isn't confined to Labour First Ministers, though. Margaret Curran simply oozes it. She gives the impression that if Alex Salmond said it was raining, she would demand everyone put on sunglasses and a swimsuit.
The pathos of this kind of rection was put into sharp relief by Malcolm Chisolm's contribution to the debate yesterday.
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95. At 7:32pm on 24 Aug 2009, deanthetory wrote:
89. Bruce206:
"Well now we have it, labour, the public schoolboy torries and the muddle liberals have shown us what we have known for a long time, they are a waste of time, effort and space."
What has my schooling got to do with anything? Why do you hate people whose parents paid for their schooling? Is that chip on your shoulder a tough burden? When will you understand that such childish pointscoring as 'public-schoolboy' just makes you look incredibly nieve, out of touch.
Not least because the vast majority of Conservative party members are NOT public schoolboys. This is merely the perception you wish to push.
I was not implying that all members of the Conservative Party were public schoolboys but that if you look at shadow cabinet it is all the establishment who will tow the Unionist party line:
David Cameron - Eton
David Davis - Grammer School
George Osbourne - Eton
William Hague - Oxford
The list goes on and on.
But if I offended I am sorry it was not the intention.
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it was completely morally wrong to release a man responsible for the murder of 200 odd people who had only served 8 years, why is our criminal justice system so focused on the people who commit the crimes: because of the cost of locking them up? why is it considered compassionate to look at the ill health of this man, it would have been much more compassionate to look at the lives of the people who he killed and what life they would have had - that should have been what the decision was based on. I consider myself liberal for a lot of things but people who commit violent crimes should serve proper sentences because what they do undermines society. i really believe that the minister should step down because he lives in a moral vacuum in my opinion
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#90 bigbaloney
Let me get this right. You can't keep the man in prison because he's ill and you can't put him somewhere else because he is a security risk. So the "common sense" thing to do is let him go.
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As an UlsterScot compassion is something I have had to have for a very long long time-40 years and more!
Scottish Government correct in turning "the other cheek" in granting Megrahi compassion.This should be our "message"to the world.
12o/o Iain Gray greetin again and again!Never a 2nd minister!!!!!!!!!!!
Man of the debate,was right at the end,Malcolm Chisholm,without fear or favour stated his position.Well done Kenny and Malcolm.
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124. At 7:00pm on 28 Aug 2009, gduwright wrote:
"Let me get this right. You can't keep the man in prison because he's ill and you can't put him somewhere else because he is a security risk. So the "common sense" thing to do is let him go."
That is simplistic enough to be verging on misrepresentation.
In the first place, it was always possible to keep al-Megrahi in prison. But to do so under the circumstances would have been morally wrong and contrary to Scotland's legal traditions.
Secondly, it was not simply security considerations which made the option of releasing al-Megrahi to a hospice in Scotland unacceptable. Much more important was the inevitable disruption and distress that would have been caused to other hospice residents and their families.
And the phrase "let go" may be misleading. The fact is that al-Megrahi has been released on licence.
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123. At 5:10pm on 28 Aug 2009, flairlazy wrote:
"...people who commit violent crimes should serve proper sentences because what they do undermines society."
As do those who imagine justice to be no more than pandering to the primitive urge to lash out with mindless vengeance.
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My! My! This blog still here?
And events have moved on so fast since its first appearance.
Interesting to note the muddying of waters by our very own dear BBBC!
Personally , I am beginning to see Saif Gaddafi as far more trustworthy than Straw , Mandelson and Brown.
" No deals" " Well , some deals" " Totally untrue "or " Of course that was part of the deal"
Take your pick folks!
The piece by the demented FBI man is STILL on this website, hats the man who speaks of jurys.
Was he present or was'nt he?
Puff piece from D Cameron , how we have upset our closest ally, ignoring the law of our land.
So Mr Cameron would have done the same as T Blair?
Followed G Bush into an illegal war?
No votes in that from me!
BBBC website , time to update and leave your spin in the bin.
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Alex Salmond to be voted down!!!!
Think what a grey adminstration it would be "with" last minister
Mr Ian (12 percent) Gray !!!
How dull would this be?
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Brian:
Could Alex Salmond's government fall?
I have my extreme doubts, that Alex Salmond's government will fall...Since, technically the government didn't do anything wrong in their duties as a government....
=Dennis Junior=
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I see the Chief of police at the time of the Lockerbie bombing for Dumfies and Galloway is in my local evening paper. He says that they got the right man and all the conspiricy theorists are wrong. He says there was no proof that Al Megrahi didnt do it ... so thats all right then eh. I suppose the fact he might have helped a miscarriage of justice wouldnt look to good if it came out even though he has retired.
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