Battling on
Is that it, then? Is that the insurrection over?
For practical purposes, it would appear so.
Have MPs learned to love Gordon and all his manifold works? No, this is an act of calculation - motivated, as ever, by personal electoral considerations.
MPs have worked out which course of action was most likely to give them a chance of saving their seats.
I don't, incidentally, remotely chide them for such an approach. It is precisely when such calculations are being made that the power of the voters is at its most substantial.
There are MPs like Tom Harris who have concluded that disquiet with Gordon Brown is so entrenched that his absence is required, regardless of whether that prompts an early election - which might prove challenging for Labour, to say the least.
Most appear to have decided that only GB can credibly stay in office until next May, opening the prospect of an improvement in Labour's fortunes. I stress, prospect.
As ever for a party which has governed for a prolonged period, there is another factor at play.
By now, the leader(s) have mostly promoted the ones they're going to promote, sacked the ones they're going to sack - and the others who've never been promoted or sacked have worked out that they're stuck.
The leadership, in short, has lost the leverage which the early period of power involves.
Now, here's a challenge.
Try explaining the events of the past few days to those Buddhist monks who have just emerged from a four-year retreat in Arran.
I'm 
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~58~RS~)
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Brian
It would not matter if a Buddhist monk was the Leader of the Labour Party at this moment in time, they are just totally unelectable!
The Labour Party has this inbuilt problem, which is the self destruct button - someone, somewhere, within the party, every so often wishes to press it, but the effects last for years
This is a time when the Country needs the Government to lead us - Yes some of it is of their own making, but we need them to lead! Not to once again self destruct
We know what the future holds while the fighting continues within Labour - The BNP comes to the fore, and although that will not apply to Scotland just now, if it continues to breed then it just might in a few years time!
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From BBC Scotlands show, Newsnight Scotland on Monday 9th of June with Glenn Campbell interviewing Tory MEP Struan Stevenson and Lib Dem MEP George Lyon, I quote;
Glenn
but your votes down, youve lost an MEP and if we still had, seven Euro MPs elected for Scotland, who would have got that seventh seat?
Struan
Well weve lost an MEP because were down to six MEPs in Scotland but you know we
Glenn (intervening)
Yeah but if we still had seven you wouldnt have got the seventh seat would you?
Struan
we have done spectacularly well, in the targeted areas, weve proven that we can get our vote out where it counts for us and foroncewe can say we are winning again in Scotland thats the great news for the conservativesand in places like Wales as you were
Glenn (intervening again)
And which party, Struan Stevenson, would have got that seventh seat?
Struan
youyou were showing in Wales, Labours had its worst result for a hundred years, I mean across the whole of the UKahreally Gordon Brown is staring into the abyss.
Glenn
Do you know, George Lyon, who would have got that seventh seat?
George (mumbling)
That would have been the SNP I think would havegotyup
LoL, good show Glenn, a classic piece of entertainment, after all it is our money we do deserve the best, dont you think?
Is there any chance that BBC Scotland could hire the BBCs number one, Jonathon Ross to probe Jim Murphy, Wendy Alexander and Lord George Foulkes? :)
IXI
I
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I am surprised and suspicious at the calls, many in letters to the newspapers, for Gordon Brown to stay at the helm of government. Are we sure these calls come from people with the best interests of the Labour Party at heart?
As I see it Labour cant win a General Election especially with Gordon Brown in charge but are frightened to get rid of Gordon Brown because that would trigger a General Election they are nearly sure they will loose, so they are caught in a perfect trap.
Labour waiting to the last minute for a General Election with a lame duck leader is exactly what the opposition wants and Im sure they will use any influences they have to keep Gordon Brown in place.
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Politics and economics are joined at the hip.
Given that, it is not really surprising that the Prime Minister has survived for the time being.
Some commentators say they are detecting some green shoots in the economy so it may turn out that when the General Election is held, more Labour MP's might actually survive than would be the case right now.
The really big political event coming up has nothing much to do with us English directly, but rather how the Scots (I am writing as an Englishman) will vote in the referendum on full independence in November 2010.
That really could be politically game-changing.
Not the election, effectively by default, of the Tories in England, before that date.
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It's the Muppet Show!
It's all such comedy that it's almost (almost) as good as the Muppet Show.
Here's the cast list (check out the web for the character's pics);
The Great Gonzo - Gordon Brown
Sam the Eagle - Alastair Darling (it's the eyebrows)
Scooter - Douglas Alexander
Mr Waldorf - Tony Benn (sitting in the box passing comments)
Janice - Ex Minister Flint (pouting seductively)
Muppet Newscaster (Brian Taylor)
The Great Gonzo enters stage left with a new act, it all goes horribly wrong, he ends up a smouldering wreck and comes back next episode to do it again.
Mr Waldorf, falls out of the box laughing and Janice puts on more lipstick while waiting for the next photoshoot for Hello magazine.
Meanwhile Scooter runs around in a a panic, greatly worried about his boss; then calls his sister for a phone hug.
Sam the Eagle raises an eyebrow and the Newscaster delivers a broadcast commending Gonzo's performance while recommending him for an Oscar.
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Have MPs learned to love Gordon and all his manifold works? No, this is an act of calculation - motivated, as ever, by personal electoral considerations.
This is what motivates Scottish Labour MP's full stop. Some of them have gone too far and have been caught manipulating home addresses, passing 'false' invoices and generally taking every opportunity to squeeze as much cash from the public purse as they can.
The Labour MP Jim Devine has yet to have his claims fully pursued and highlighted by the Scottish media, especially the BBC.
They do not represent those who elect them, they haven't for some twenty years.
Brown is destroying the Labour party and that is something I am glad of. Where there is no principle then there is no courage, that is why we see a dysfunctional bully being allowed to remain as 'leader' of Labour.
Not surprisingly, no Scottish journalist has yet acknowledged the parallel's with Brown's treatment of fellow Labour MP's and the party with his treatment of Scotland after we decided Labour had to go.
This man ultimately seeks to destroy that which stands up to him, it is the only way he knows - either that or he sulks and ignores them, as he did with our first Minister immediately after the Holyrod election, until he can ignore them no longer.
Oh for a real political analyst in Scotland in these interesting times.
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I listened to someone on radio 4 last night at a demo primarily against the BNP gaining two EU English seats. But the spokeperson was at pains to point out that they don't represent the majority of English opinion which is propbably true, but a coupla hundred thousand English folk took time out to vote for them! A formidable Army should it ever chose to mobilize in this fashion. H'mm I ponder if the likes of the SLA are capable of similar feats?
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#4 John Constable .....
Interesting.. In my opinion the state of the economy is the main reason why Brown shouldn't survive. The damage he has done on top of the damage done by the Tories makes Scotland's economic future look exceptionaly "iffy"... Contrast our situation with this;
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/584ac824-548c-11de-a58d-00144feabdc0.html
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Brown remains in place for now. Shored up by Mandelson.
His crown is there to be removed whenever Mandelson feels the need, and Gordon knows it. It was Mandelson who persuaded Johnston and Milliband to hold their fire after Purnell walked last week.
Lame duck PM.
Suspect Mandelson will kick away his crutches in the Autumn. By that time the new leader (Johnston?) will be able to argue that a spring 2010 election is reasonable, and they'll have 6 months to find a bounce.
Other than remarkable economic recovery, this is the best that Labour can hope for, and it is what they effectively agreed last night.
Watch the Tories target Johnston and Milliband (just to be on the safe side)in the next 6 months.
Brian - you wrote a few weeks back about the SNP requiring to find a new "narrative". Do you still think that's the case?
I think the SNP can just sit back and wait, keep making decisions in the best interest of the Scottish people, and reap the rewards come election and referendum time.
Good to see the record police numbers announced today!
Apologies will be forthcoming from far and wide no doubt?
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No wonder Brian's post is short, there is nothing much left to say.
Gordon has won whether people like it or lump it and it's now, finally, time to get back to talking about policies. There has been a bit of self-indulgence in the media, journalists getting too immersed in these stories but now is time to step back and discuss policy, the economy, the environment. The things that matter.
If that happens, Gordon can still win the next GE....
http://tinyurl.com/mlbdo7
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Is that it, then? Is that the insurrection over?
So What?
The labour party and Broon are still dead men walking.
They don't even have enough MP's good enough to make a cabinet and they don't have anybody who would make a better PM that Gordondoom - bad as he is.
The concern should be what has he given away to get the loyalty, how will that affect government debt, and what will be the knock on effect on the pound, the economy, and Britain's credit rating?
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An interesting analysis and summary of independence polls forms an article in The Herald by Robbie Dinwoodie, a journalist who tends to be pretty balanced.
The figures are not presented all that clearly and the reader is required to make some calculations - however, the numbers appear to be as follows:
Support for independence 36%
Against independence 39%
Undecided 25%
The article carries quotes from Labour:
Separating Scotland from the rest of the UK does not carry popular support in Scotland, and never has.
and the LibDems:
After almost two years of relentless taxpayer-funded campaigning, support for the SNP's flagship policy of independence has only gone up by 1%.
Both statements are laughable and should simply be ignored.
However, the key aspect of the analysis is that support for independence is relatively solid at around 35%. Support for the Union appears to be have roughly similar rock solid support in the same 355 region.
The remainder of the electorate are yet to be convinced one way or the other. This, coupled with the recent Euro election results surely demand that the independence arguments receive coverage and be debated.
We simply cannot whitewash the growing discontent with Westminster and increased support for both independence and the SNP with a throwaway 'protest vote' line. Nor will a forthcoming visit to Texas act as a suitable substitute for very real scrutiny of both sides arguments.
I won't hold my breath, but serious scrutiny of the current constitutional settlement, Calman proposals and independence are now warranted.
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Wee-Scamp @ 8
I can fully understand why native Scots are pretty annoyed about the North Sea oil.
A fully independent Scotland may well have chosen to build a fund from the oil income, as the Norwegians have prudently done.
This turns out to be part of the very heavy price that Scots have paid for previously remaining loyal to Labour.
Never mind, once you are fully independent, you can sell us English fresh water, which we will soon desparately need as the aquifers of Southern England empty.
That cloud really does have a silver lining.
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#8 Wee Scamp
Thanks for the link
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As D Cameron is fond of sayin. "They just don't get it."
The great brown bogey eater leads his party to their WORST EVER election result and they great him with cheers and desk slamming howling down any dissent like a gang of thugs.
To a labour mp and the lickspittle media this is perfectly normal behaviour and shows the strength of James G Brown.
To real people it looks like a bunch of lunatics who have long since left planet reality and are heading for the nice room with padded walls and crayons.
Shame the BBC is too biased to provide any balanced reporting now that the electoral rules are no longer in force.
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comment 9 - dearwendy
Watch the Tories target Johnston and Milliband (just to be on the safe side)in the next 6 months.
Good call I think.
The Tories will now attack 'the flanks' as it were as Brown erects a barrier around himself, he is now a hollow leader. I am particularly interested in how Iain Gray will react to the current situation.
My suspicion is that Gray will simply carry on in exactly the same manner as before, aiming smears and being repeatedly knocked around by vicious counterpunching from Salmond.
In fact, the whole Unionist establishment in Scotland is now caught in a loop completely unable to adapt to these times. Brown is now a letter day 'Toom Tabard' having been stripped of both dignity and real power.
I can actually imagine many Scottish political journalists rocking back and forth, head in hands muttering "What am I to do?".
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"Now, here's a challenge. Try explaining the events of the past few days to those Buddhist monks who have just emerged from a four-year retreat in Arran."
Okay, here goes:
An entire shower of greedy trough-snuffling MPs, having been completely exposed by The Telegraph, offered a whole load of false apologies, bogus resignations and insincere repayments, promised a whole load of reforms to the political system that they'll instantly forget if voted in, breathed a sigh of relief that the police like "good eggs" are not investigating them for fraud, then having kept their heads below the parapet for a couple of days until a disasterous Euro election result blew over, they realised they're not dead yet (!) and arrogantly declared, as they always do: "business as usual!" before retiring to the House of Commons bar to fill out their latest juicy expenses claim.
I love a challenge.
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Labour MPs have resigned themselves to losing the next Westminster election so the only interest they are serving now are their own.
Labour MPs care more about protecting their bank balances and their pensions than they do about selecting a new leader.
As for Gordon Brown he cannot change, he can't, and will go down in history as the worst ever Prime Minister.
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#16 GB "the whole Unionist establishment in Scotland is now caught in a loop"
Tories have a bit of a problem though - Carswell et al "The Plan" possibly the basis for the next Call Me Dave manifesto says " Confronted by the evidence that many of the world's richest territories are micro states ....because they enjoy the small-state advantages of efficency and proximity" p23
Will the Unionist Tories now be backing Federalism? - one more milestone to independence?
And Brian, is the move towards the SNP partly because people have begun to realise that one way to make government more effecient and responsive is to make the state smaller rather than a protest vote?
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Re 16
Milliband and Johnson will get the brunt of the Tory attack. however I am sure that the Labour machine will focus on Osbourne and Cameron's personality closer to the election. Osbourne remains an easy target and the more exposure he gets the more likely the Tories are to suffer. In many parts of the UK Osbourne will appear totally out of touch.
I agree Gray needs to find some new ground, new ideas. He hasn't landed any punches on Salmond and nor is he likely to if he carries on the way he has to date. He has to focus on the issues the SNP are not getting right, problem is they are not the key areas. His best areas of attack are transport and possibly education in the next couple of years as the spending decisions start to feed through. But even the education area can bite him on the bottom as that will be seen to be lead by Westminster. He is very short of targets. he needs to wait, offer alternative ideas where possible, like he did with the Apprentice situation and wait for the inevitable problems that hurt all governments in power when they have to make difficult decisions. that is the politics of opposition.
However I don't think the SNP have fully adapted to these times either, they need to be a little more bold and push the boat out more to make a more positive case for independence. this is a golden opportunity, they will not get a better chance.
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#20 NH - agree re SNP opportunity
They could seize the mood and push for more parliamentary reform in Scotland - elected NHS chairmen, chief constables quango heads etc and push the benefits of a smaller state
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Try explaining the events of the past few days to those Buddhist monks who have just emerged from a four-year retreat in Arran.
That's easy Brian, just dig in the BBC archives and show them stuff from 1977-78 they'll get it straight away
6. At 12:28pm on 09 Jun 2009, greenockboy
They do not represent those who elect them, they haven't for some twenty years.
Make that 35 years and you'll be getting closer
9. At 12:40pm on 09 Jun 2009, dear_wendy
keep making decisions in the best interest of the Scottish people
I've been waiting for a party to do that for years, instead they trot out the same old blame the Tories/Labour - delete one as required. I was very dubious about the SNP, but they are doing a reasonably good job so far.
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19. At 1:27pm on 09 Jun 2009, Aikenheed wrote
And Brian, is the move towards the SNP partly because people have begun to realise that one way to make government more effecient and responsive is to make the state smaller rather than a protest vote?
That's precisely the way I've been looking at it over the last 8 years, smaller is more accountable. Not sure how that sits with SNPs love of the EU though
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I'm delighted by the recognition that the SNP are delivering (thus far) on their manifesto promise of 1000 extra police officers across four years. Many manifesto pledges sink without trace across a government's tenure, but it appears this one will be delivered upon. I was less impressed by the reaction of the opposition parties which have hounded the SNP over this (as is their duty in opposition): the Tories were desperate to claim it for themselves (with the decidedly odd 'any number over 500' qualification, although I am aware they claim to have forced the SNP to change from 500 to 1000); Labour forecast economic problems next year that will make the current level unsustainable (irony not being a strong point); and the Lib Dems at least point out that the true test is people feeling safer in the streets, which at least gives credit to the achievement, albeit implicitly. I think it would have been far more to the opposition's credit if they simply said that they were happy to have more police on the streets.
Re the current news story, it is depressing that all current actions revolve around the desire 'to win the next election'. That should not motivate a politican; that should be the consequence of their true motivation which is (ought to be) rendering public service to those who voted to place them in positions of power. Personally I think absolute transparency and a well educated populace is the key to good politics, but that is for another day.
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#16 Greenock & #19 NorthHighlander
Iain Gray desparately needs to be seen as something other than the leader of the anti SNP party.
He has to show some positive alternative pro-scottish policies.
However he is completely hamstrung in that he must also follow the London Labour line to the letter. What few policies they have are certainly not designed for the greater good of Scotland.
Faced with that conundrum, he'll plod on - attacking the SNP at every opportunity , real or imagined, and offering no positive alternative.
It's worked well so far don't you think!
Regarding the comments from the 3 unionist parties in the herald about the latest independence poll. They really need to get their heads out of the sand.
It smacks of sticking their fingers in their ears and singing Rule Brittania as loudly as possible.
That's why to an extent I disagree with you on #19 NorthHighlander. I don't think the SNP need to do anything too radical. Just by continually putting the Scottish people first, second and third in their priorities and delivering good governance they stand out a mile from their opponents and are winning converts and weakening opposition on a daily basis.
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To: Brian Taylor
From: Jim Murphy
Subject: Immediate explanation required - TODAY please!!!
brian
Whit the hell are you lot doin'?!! We're up to our bottom lips in it and you're publishing this....this...tripe??!!
"Police numbers 'at record high'"
"Scots MP calls for PM to resign"
"SNP takes first place in Euro poll"
"Salmond hails 'historic' Euro win"
"Summit to 'unlock' rural economy"
"Creative industries' growth plan"
For goodness sake! Get a grip or I'll make sure you're all collecting your pink slips before you can utter "whit a guddle!"
"Power to the peeple"
Jim
p.s.
While I'm on a roll: tell Campbell to get his sorry backside over to YouTube. His latest effort interview was more like a "feather boa" than a "boa constrictor". Tell him to get right intae the reruns of "Salmond gets nailed by Paxman". And no, I'm not joking!
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Lets not forget one thing.
NuLab still have an overwhelming majority in the Commons.
They can theoretically push through whatever legislation they like. But this time, every vote on any contentious issue will be used as a Loyalty Test.
NuLab MPs are not going to vote to remove Broon because they know that it means a general election and they will hang onto the bitter death in order to get their golden goodbyes.
The bye-elections in Glasgow North and Norwich will be " we continue to listen to what the public are telling us and will redouble our efforts to communicate the message...etc,etc."
In the event that they hold one of them, it will be a glorious vindication of the new and energised cabinet following the path that the Great Helmsman has set.
Feels like a mix of both the last days of Callaghan and the last days of Major. Both of which led to prolonged periods of opposition.
I think that NuLab have missed a trick here. If they called an election now, CMD has No Policies. NO POLICIES.
But the sad reality is that he only needs one policy and its the Policy the Bliar and Broon won three terms on.
We're not THEM.
Scottish NuLab Voters. Your vote is a wasted vote. Scotland could return 59 NuLab MPs and they would make the Feeble Fifty look like paragons of political action.
Vote for your future. Vote for Our Future.
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This is rather funny... I left on Friday to go on a retreat, so here I am trying to catch!
The last thing I saw prior to leaving was The Man from North Britain's full TV press release. The aggression and anger he displayed reminded me of Hitler!
I was astonished with the rude attacks on journalists. Now home, I see journalist headlines covering for him.
I think the Monk would say to some journalists "be true to ones self as if you are not true to ones self, the you cannot be true to others" in other words write it as it is please!
I reckon the monk would then turn around and go right back!
My question is Would any journalist or politician listen to a Monk?
Brian, since you have brought religion into politics, why don't you try interviewing a Buddhist Monk? I'm sure you would be most welcome at the Kagyu Samye Ling Monastery.
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Of course the SNP vote that beat Labour in Scotland was a "protest" vote.
As the votes for Tory and LibDem went down as well it was obviously a protest vote against the Union.
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Great result for the SNP.
Close result in Fife with Labour with just 205 votes more than The SNP!
Has Jim Murphy come out of hiding yet? Any links would be appreciated.
Does the PM swear & chuck phones ???
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7dEDhcNs_c
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dear_wendy Re your 25
I totally agree with you, when your opponent is in a deep hole and is still digging, do not stop them, hand them another shovel.
Most of what is left of Labours support is the "my father voted Labour" variety, and will not change no matter what. There are however many thousands of voters who are now beginning to realize that their vote does count, the "monkey with the red rosette" is no longer guaranteed to win anywhere in Scotland, and it is our job to get them to the polling station.
For years Scots have traveled half way round the globe to secure a better future for their children, we need to convince them that now they only have to travel as far a the polling station and vote SNP to secure that better future for them and their children.
Steady as we go, and continue to hope Broon stays as PM until the general election.
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Brian , you will need to get a move on mate, your colleagues in the Times(the London one not the Glasgow one) and the Herald have suddenly changed their tune quite substantially over the week end , come on don't get left behind now, you might get awful lonely on the sinking ship ,the rats are jumping right in front of our eyes.
I certainly wouldn't fancy a night on board a sinking ship with Mr Cochrane.
Sid.
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24. Eoin_og: "I'm delighted by the recognition that the SNP are delivering (thus far) on their manifesto promise of 1000 extra police officers across four years.....the Tories were desperate to claim it for themselves (with the decidedly odd 'any number over 500' qualification, although I am aware they claim to have forced the SNP to change from 500 to 1000)"
Are you serious? Everyone else seems to know that the SNP reneged on this flagship "fully costed" manifesto pledge within weeks of the election, when they tried to claim they never meant "1000 new police" but actually "1000 extra police on the streets made up of 500 new police and 500 redeployed from desk duties". It was the Conservatives that forced the SNP to stick to their own promise.
Although you got this right: "Many manifesto pledges sink without trace...". Class sizes, home-buyer grants, school building programmes, climate change targets, road building programmes etc. You know, the type of manifesto promise that some people voted SNP for but have been let down.
(cue the "well, Labour also never delivered on their manifesto!!" as if they makes it all okay).
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A very interesting article in The Times by Macleod who is a known Onionist.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/scotland/article6459420.ece
I thought that his last paragraph was particularly interesting,
They have now beaten Labour in two successive elections in Scotland. If the Nationalists triumph again in 2011, as it seems they surely will, they'll be expecting to keep the Scottish Labour Party for their trophy cabinet - like the Brazilians with their World Cup.
It is pleasing to note that Macleod thinks that there is one cabinet that Iain Gray might get into.
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greenockboy @ 16
You say that you can actually imagine many Scottish political journalists rocking back and forth, head in hands muttering "What am I to do?".
I have noticed this too, particularly with Scottish journalists such as Magnus Linklater and Michael Gove (also a Tory MP with 'expensive furniture'), who writes, sometimes anti-SNP articles, in The Times here in England.
What I imagine is going through the heads of these media commentators is that post-full Scottish independence, they do want to appear as relevant to England as Canadian journalists are to America i.e. not very relevant at all.
There does appear to be a fear amongst Scottish media commentators based in London, England that the appetite for their fare will dry up once Scottish independence is upon us.
I think these fears are irrational, these people are extremely talented and will continue to earn a good living down South.
Not so the London based Scottish politicians, especially Labour - they had better find an EU bolthole fast because I cannot see them being welcomed back home to Scotland post-indpendence.
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27. Chiefy: "I think that NuLab have missed a trick here. If they called an election now, CMD has No Policies. NO POLICIES. "
See http://www.conservatives.com/Policy.aspx
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#35
They have been giving you a hard time on Nick's blog but what you say here is very apt, especially your last paragraph. And I'm not Blind :)
I can see very clearly, but no hard feelings lol
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Could one of the devoted help here?
I'm trying to find a list of all the up and running construction projects that have been initiated by the SNP. This includes those that are not yet started but have planning and finances secured, as well as those where construction has actually started.
Every bridge, hospital, road, railway, prison, school and other public building (plus a Commonwealth Games) that I have seen the SNP claim credit and publicity for since 2007 was started by the previous Labour Government.
Where is this list of projects started by the SNP?
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Brian,
Who want's to be captain of a sinking ship?
Just let Gordon stay at the helm.
Everybody else to the lifeboats.
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#33, RE
Yes I am serious, and happy to clear up any further questions you may have regarding my intent in posting. Please don't hesitate to ask.
I note you state that 'everyone else seems to know'; in which case, you had better mention it to the Justice Minister, as he seemed to believe that it was the SNP delivering on their manifesto commitment. The opposition spokespersons also failed to flag up the fact that the SNP failed on this one count; indeed, according to the BBC, the Labour justice spokesperson welcomed the new figures.
Further, you adopt the position that the SNP "reneged on this flagship 'fully costed" manifesto pledge', and then go on in the same paragraph to state that it was the Conservatives that forced the SNP to 'stick to their own promise'. Assuming you are talking about the same pledge/promise, I fear you may have laid a burden upon the logical semantics of the English language which it may not be able to bear.
But this tit for tat aside, I hoped to emphasise that when a government does good, it seems that the opposition still criticise when it would be more to their credit to welcome the result (which is good for the populace) and continue to test the government on other areas. And yes, you are correct, a great many manifesto promises disappear, from all governments; SNP included. The fact that all governments are guilty does not alleviate the sin of any particular government, I entirely agree.
Dubbieside - good link, I enjoyed the article.
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Why I have I seen more interviews with Nick Griffin on the BBC than Alex Salmond/any member of the SNP? I can't believe this impartial broadcaster would rather discuss the radical 'policies' of the BNP than those of the governing party in Scotland.
After all, they do have the same number of MEPs representing us in Europe.
I would consider the victory of the SNP in the Euro vote and the impending dissolution of the union to be more significant than the 'startling revelation' that there is a minority racist/fascist electorate in the UK.
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#36 Ex Pat.
Tory Policy:
''We will oppose the defence provisions in the Lisbon Treaty and ensure that Nato, not the EU, remains the cornerstone of our nations defence. And we are committed to maintaining the UK's nuclear deterrent''
Cameron Policy:
''But this is the first time the Tories - who have traditionally championed Britain's nuclear deterrent - have suggested the programme may be at risk.''
Mr Cameron said: 'We support things that are in the forward defence programme because we think there is good justification for all of them. But that doesn't mean in these difficult circumstances that you don't have to look - just as you are looking across government - at all of these things.
'Whether it is better strategic lift capacity which the armed services need, being better able to project power through having a proper Navy and carriers, having the best replacement there is for an independent nuclear deterrent - there are reasons for all of these things.
'But clearly, when you are reviewing spending, you have to review all spending.'
In an article for the Financial Times, Mr Davis said of Trident: 'Our system was designed to maintain retaliatory capacity after a full-scale Soviet nuclear onslaught. Now our likeliest nuclear adversary will be a much smaller, less sophisticated state. Should not the costs reflect that?''
Which one is it to be?
Wansanshoo.
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41. "I would consider the victory of the SNP in the Euro vote and the impending dissolution of the union to be more significant..."
I know! It's as if no-one considers the impending dissolution of the union even a remote possibility! Go figure!
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AlreadySalted:
#41.
I disagree. Politics appears more interesting since the British National Party managed to send two Members of the European Parliament to Brussels.
Unite Against Fascism assaulting Nick Griffin, openly insisting that individuals who they claim fascists should have no right to free speach...
It has shown this country in it's true form.
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42. Allow me to translate, Wansanshoo.
Cameron considers the multi-billion Trident launch platform of multiple-warhead missiles and very large nuclear submarines as possibly redundant in this post-Cold War threat environment as there is currently no potential enemy deserving a deterrent that can take out 190+ individual targets in one launch (although an increasing belligerent Russia, where defence spending on re-arming has trebled in recent years, is worthy of monitoring).
He is therefore proposing a Defence Review to assess the current to medium-term threat and identify alternative deterrent platforms which could be introduced at a lower cost and are also more flexible, such as changing to sea- and land-based cruise missiles.
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#44.
It may well be interesting to see how the two BNP MEPs fare in the Euro parliament. However, I worry that the party is receiving more publicity than it deserves. Free speech is one thing, but we can't forget the lessons from history, particularly WWII.
I also think the growing support for the SNP and, with it, independence has been underestimated and under-reported. It is as relevant to the rest of the UK as it is to Scotland.
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#45 Expat
I agree with you,the policy is, as you stated 'possibly redundant'.
Wansanshoo.
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Nu Labour cowards: please feel free to damn yourselves and defend the incompetent in number 10.
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http://www.theherald.co.uk/politics/news/display.var.2513247.0.Vote_on_independence_would_be_close_say_polls.php
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Reluctant-Expat,
In a democracy, ideas are used to defeat ideas. Adolf Hitler curbed the rights of the Jews and used violence against his opposition. Unite Against Fascism has shot themselves in the foot. You can not use violence and curb the rights of others and call them, 'the bad guys'.
When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.
Then they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.
Then they came for the trade unionists,
I did not protest;
I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Jews,
I did not speak out;
I was not a Jew.
When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out for me.
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46. Having secured 6.7% of the national vote, they will join the other fascist/right wing parties from Netherlands (17% of the national vote), Austria (15%), Bulgaria (9%), Belgium (?), Denmark (10%), France (6%), Italy (?) and Romania (6%) that make up just under 10% of the European Parliament.
There, apart from some chest-beating speeches, they will be largely ignored and despised as they have been since the beginning.
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#44 and #46
Are you two real - there is no place anywhere for the vile views of the BNP. It will be interesting to see if his nationalist friends on here stay silent and therefore imo show compliance with the ridiculous comments at #44.
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ReluctantDerek/AM2 is losing it again. You can always tell when he has to finish his post with, boy, kid or now silly child.
Still it will take him a long time to recover from the shock of the Euro elections, all that spin, all his negatives, all his "statistics" and still the SNP marches on. You would almost think no one listens to him.
Even Maddox from the ultra unionist North Britishman is stating to see the light.
http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/scotland/SNP-set--to-defeat.5345852.jp
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48. Maybe not. As I said, Russia is becoming increasingly belligerent as shown by their resentment of Georgia joining NATO, the claiming of the North Pole for mineral rights, the threats to the West about oil supplies and has been rapidly re-arming all of its forces, including the strategic nuclear forces. Putin will no doubt be returning to the Presidency once his constitutional bar from office expires and, while he has been clearly pulling the puppet strings of Medvedev, there are strong indications of a surge in Russian nationalism within foreign affairs and military operations upon his return.
All will obviously have direct consequences on our own national security and while such a threat exists, it may be that we are stuck in the necessary evil that is Trident for a while yet.
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51. Master Porter, you reject the anti-fascist movement's efforts to fight the BNP and then you quote Niemöller....who warned against failing to fight fascism?
Are you actually suggesting 'Unite Against Fascism' are Niemöller's modern-day Nazi's??
An SNP supporter demanding the BNP are allowed free speech and anyone who stops them is a Nazi?
Oh dear.
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#52
As I understand it, the Euro-parliamentary group with which the Scottish National Party is associated is the environmentalist/autonomist alliance which had secured about 15 per cent of the vote in the Euro-elections in the EU as a whole when I last heard a report on the subject.
It is led by an extremely prominent political strategist of proven and indeed legendary ability. This group ("Groupe Verts/Alliance libre européenne") is nothing if not dynamic and influential and has nothing whatever to do with the far right. Daniel Cohn-Bendit is the last person on the entire planet to associate himself with the far right.
For further information on the Euro-parliamentary group to which the SNP belongs, see my #80 in the previous thread.
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54. Dubbieside, maybe you should actually read that article you've so readily linked to instead of just the headline and/or the first couple of paragraphs. I know it's a long and boring article but the conclusions are quite relevant:
"However, while the result was a clear success for the SNP, its performance was far from spectacular. True, its vote was as much as nine points above what it achieved in 2004, but that is more a reflection of how badly it did five years ago.
At 29 per cent, the SNP's share was a little less than the 31 per cent of the list vote the party won in 2007. It was below, too, the 33 per cent it won in the 2004 European election. The result is better regarded as an affirmation of the SNP's existing level of popularity than as an indication of an advance."
And as the initial posters are quite right to say, a vote for a party in a Euro election says very little about a vote in a UK election.
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Once more, the nature and quality of the majority of posts to this blog are disturbingly low ... There appears to be, from the handful of Usual Suspects, an unpleasant (not to say unqualified) outpouring of unfettered Nationalism (of which more later) that is infrequently countered with the bleating of exposed and increasingly indefensible Unionist apologists ...
The Facts, once the basis for rational argument, are lost in this odious brew ... The Politics of Ignorance, where sniping, unsubstantiated allegation and innuendo are all, rule here - unmoderated and therefore valueless ...
Surely it is time to put these debate(s) into some kind of historical and geographic context, taking the widest possible view of our situation to enable us to gain perspective and help direct our thinking ??? ...
Instead of debating political philosophy or ideology we (you) make really embarrassingly silly points about the most trivial matters, ignoring the facts and the realities of political life as though these things shouldn't be taken into consideration ... People are people and their behaviour can be understood in evolutionary terms, so look there for the root causes of Duck Houses and flipping ... Shock is inappropriate ...
OK ...
The Scottish Government has failed to deliver on some manifesto 'promises' (but that really isn't important; circumstances alter cases); and they have delivered on others ... These are simple facts that cannot be twisted or spun ...
But let me take one example to highlight the paucity of intellectual rigour that surrounds the discussion of a seemingly simple matter; the numbers of promised, extra bobbies on the beat ... Has anyone bothered to ask WHY we might be even considering increasing the numbers by this or any other amount ??? ... Is it perhaps because the levels of petty crime, fuelled by out-of-control drug and alcohol abuse, and driven in part by poverty (literal and of opportunity) are shockingly high ??? ... And if so, why are we not talking about THAT (its causes and possible solutions) ??? ...
Back to Nationalism; it's hard to find a credible definition of this term that doesn't eventually slide into something akin to Racism - there, I've said it ... What exactly is it that that defines a Nation, and upon what basis do Nationalists claim brotherhood, loyalty and exclusion (difference) from the next-door Nation ??? ... Is it genetic, or economic, or political, or what ??? ... The history of our own Nation, before and during the current arrangement, is a small sidebar to the great events of European history, and no amount of 'Wha's like us' bravado can make it otherwise; the Industrial Revolution happened in England (our very own next-door Nation), and its many causes are directly attributable to English actions over the preceding 250 years (perhaps originating in the creation of the East India Company) ... It seems some of you can't accept the historical reality of events and (proximate and ultimate) causes, and substitute a misplaced feeling of victimhood for the legitimate feelings of anger at the Establishment and its many failings ... The best way to win is to win the argument, and the best way to win the argument is to articulate a position based on facts, analysis and a full understanding of the historical context in which we find oursleves ...
It may be that Independence is the best thing for Scotland, but that Independence must be based on a strong political philosophy that is informed by rigorous intellectual debate ... And maybe there can be Independence independent of the SNP; after all, there's very little evidence of them articulating these higher-level arguments ...
Can we, please, raise the bar on these matters and get around to fighting over the REAL arguments ??? ...
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There is further analysis on the Glasgow council website of the Euro result split into constituencies.
Glasgow NE will be a difficult by-election for the SNP.
However, the SNP won Glasgow North and Glasgow South. Now who could be the Labour MP for Glasgow South? Should he be worried about his job? Step forward Tom Harris. He is right to be worried and you can understand why he has been telling Brown to stand down.
Not sure why Glasgow has provided a breakdown. Any chance there is a breakdown in Fife or has it gone missing?
Freedom
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#55 Expat.
Surely, 'maybe not', 'possibly redundant', and 'maybe' all add up to ambiguity.
This lack of clarity in Tory policy seems to affect more than just Trident.
Wansanshoo
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European Allies ?
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article6289822.ece
Wansanshoo.
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... A song to commemorate the Election results... and to give some smiles *;o)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYV4BevwfJ0
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#56 - "Are you actually suggesting 'Unite Against Fascism' are Niemller's modern-day Nazi's??"
I suggest you do a little history reading on the Anti Nazi League. At some points, they were so bad, so fascist themselves, that the Home Office repeatedly had to implement bans on ANL rallys.
So far, the UAF appear different only in name and the time they have existed - they haven't been in existence long enough to achieve the notoriety of the ANL. Give them time.
Free speech has to be universal or it doesn't exist. No ifs, no buts. By the same token, the BNP have the right to stand for election - if we through democracy out the window just coz we don't like the results. No other political party that recorded anything like the (very) modest results the BNP achieved have had the media coverage of the BNP. The UAF are giving the BNP so much free publicity, they'd be as well joining Griffin's campaign team for the next elections.
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The final score for the Greens/EFA group to which I referred in my #57 seems to be 52 seats, according to the Euro-parliamentary website.
With the campaigning expertise available to it, this group will no doubt make the most of the representation that it has so far achieved and build on what is a promising foundation.
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59. "Can we, please, raise the bar on these matters and get around to fighting over the REAL arguments ??? ..."
Not on this forum. Not any more.
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Although, under the principles of democracy, we should not exclude the right of representation to any political group, even on the grounds that their doctrines are dangerously repugnant, I think we can all agree that the election of these two fascists (I will refrain from any mention of their organisation) as UK MEPs is an appalling step in the wrong direction.
Neither should we allow the 'moral high ground' over any such issue to be adopted by any supporter, past or present, of Thatcherism, and its all-too-real infliction of far-right policies upon those who were denied an effective political voice.
Those dark years of not so long ago remain a salutary warning from history, that our democracy must be inclusive, truly representative, and protective in particular of the vulnerable.
We can be grateful now to live in more 'enlightened' political times, and should embrace Scotland's superb EU poll result as continuing evidence that we are indeed in the evolutionary days of a better nation.
As we seek to build a stronger, more effective democracy, upholding the values of a healthier and more inclusive society, in harmony with our long-fought-for Scottish parliament, we should be rightly concerned at some of the 'insular' gangs our not-so-distant neighbours have advanced to voice the their outrage against this self-imploding Labour regime.
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#59 The_Concept_Of_Mind
"The best way to win is to win the argument, and the best way to win the argument is to articulate a position based on facts, analysis and a full understanding of the historical context in which we find oursleves ..."
Looking forward to a post from you that actually contains some facts, analysis and a full understanding of historical context.
On the basis of what you've written so far we might be waiting for some time.
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#59 Concept of the mind
Nice one
The prospect of independence is real enough now, so the discussions should be about the political policies/philosphies which would form the nation post independence.
"And maybe there can be Independence independent of the SNP" - one question is will the SNP survive Independence - or would it become the "new scottish labour party" or a sort of Social Democrat party a la continent?
Why are we seeking independence - personally the FREEDOM!!! bit is in my heart but over the past 10 years its the increased prosperity which would come from being a smaller, more flexible state with a simpler, shallower political hierachy which is in my head.
I was at one time involved in promoting some very hi tech forestry technology (Finnish)
A meeting with a mill manager in south of Ireland resulted in a meeting with a group chairman in the afternoon and a meeting with the forestry minister in Dublin the following day. I can't even envisage something like that happening in the UK let alone so quickly
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Meeting young Gordon
"He simply seemed to have no discernible ability to communicate informally with his fellow human beings, who were clipping a microphone to his tie, lightly powdering his nose, attempting to chat him up, and doing all the other irritating things that television people do."
No change there then!
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#58 Reluctant-Expat
Why do you bother to post? To attempt to put down another poster and say they haven't read an article and then quote the article complete with it's glaring error only proves that you can read and that you don't know what you are talking about. Doesn't it worry you that you make yourself out to be stupid? Anyhoo, do go and check the SNP % of the vote in 2004 and then tell yourself that every day in every way you get better and better.
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#59
Would a post which one might reasonably consider to be of quintessentially high quality not necessarily confine itself to the topic in question, which would appear to be the leadership of the Labour Party, about which you do not appear to have anything to say?
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Reluctant-Expat re your 58
You keep clutching at your straws. If you keep repeating to yourself it will never happen, you will probably convince yourself, but you are convincing no one else.
Your desperation is really quite amusing, as was Maddox trying to put whatever spin he could on it, but even he realized that even the Hootsman could not ignore this result however much they would have liked to.
Let me remind you again what the headline was,
"SNP set to defeat Scottish Labour at next poll"
Probably only your four identities and Gray and Murphy could spin this any other way than total meltdown for Labour, but you keep tilting at your windmills, it is great amusement.
By the way keep up the insults re long articles, boy, son and silly child, they say far more about you that any person being attacked by you. It helps highlight how weak your argument is.
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#59, I think your post highlights a mis-understanding of the issue of Scottish Nationalism.
...In a simple response, Scottish Nationalism is about Smaller Government more directly relevant to Scottish People (Than obviously Westminster is). Also, I know what you are about to say; "But are you not for being part of the EU?"... Truth here is that NO, I am not! But in any event that is a secondary question which is easily answered by the Scottish electorate as an independent country (Just like Belgium or Ireland or Italy...or... etc)
Where I completely fail to understand your position is on your statement...
Quote "Back to Nationalism; it's hard to find a credible definition of this term that doesn't eventually slide into something akin to Racism - there, I've said it ... What exactly is it that that defines a Nation, and upon what basis do Nationalists claim brotherhood, loyalty and exclusion (difference) from the next-door Nation ??? ... Is it genetic, or economic, or political, or what ???"
I would take a stab that it is actually none of the adjectives you use... and it is infact simple 'pride'... and I fail to see how having pride in a self-determined multi-cultural independant Scotland has got anything at all to do with racism? All independence ammounts to, is taking devolution to its' full conclusion (ie. all relevant law making and fiscal powers are passed to Holyrood).
Your next quote: "The best way to win is to win the argument, and the best way to win the argument is to articulate a position based on facts, analysis and a full understanding of the historical context in which we find oursleves."...
...what's your point regarding "Historical context"?
IMO Politics are about shaping our future and making decisions which benefit society as well as all aspects our living environment. The past is in the past and 'for all intents and purposes', is long passed.
Therefore, I would sterss that any historical relevance is... well er... irrelevant. Its' all about the Present and the future.
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Is it not far more likely that GB is safe for now because nobody is daft enough to drink from the poisoned chalice that is the premiership?
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#54 dubbieside
There's an error [I won't give the benefit of the doubt and call it a misprint] in the Scotsman article you link to, which R-E naturally quotes. It says, and makes a meal of, the SNP share in 2004 was 33%, which would suggest a decline this time. It was actually 19.7% [see this website's Vote 2004 Scotland] meaning that the SNP vote share increased by 47.53% while NuLab's declined by 21.17%.
#58 Reluctant-Expat
"And as the initial posters are quite right to say, a vote for a party in a Euro election says very little about a vote in a UK election."
Perhaps your time would be better spent reminding your nice Mr C just that, especially as his party only managed 28.97% of the vote in England and 27.74% island-wide - rather worse than the SNP's 29.06% in Scotland.
Because of the arcane plurality voting system for Westmidden and the tactical voting it encourages, neither party can be confident of receiving those numbers at the general election, but I rather suspect the FM is happier with the Euro outcome than is Mr C.
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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#75 Lily Hammer
I thought it was about El Gordo not Mandelson
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#79, Brownedov...
...with regards to your link, an interesting point is that the SNP this time took 321,007 votes, which would have still have defeated what Labour got last time of 310,865 votes in 2004.
...Protest vote? LOL
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYV4BevwfJ0
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#74 handclapping
A better and more measured response than mine - wish I'd waited until it cleared the mods before posting.
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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#65 Bongo. Thank you.
Freedom
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#66
What a politician stands for has, of course, nothing to do with his or her capacity to be an effective strategist. The Greens are rightly credited with having conducted a most effective campaign and to have made a significant breakthrough in France and in the EU more widely in these Euro-elections. Mr Cohn-Bendit is closely associated with both accomplishments.
As for what he and the political grouping in question actually stand for, that may be discovered at europeecologie.fr. To the best of my knowledge and belief, ecologists do not advocate any form of mistreatment of children.
It is, of course, true that Daniel Cohn-Bendit was once upon a time a student politician of radical views, as was Jack Straw (Communist) and John Reid (Communist), but they too seem to have moved on from their original standpoints, as did Jack McConnell, who was originally a member of the SNP. Was that acceptable for a Labour First Minister? Apparently so, as was the far-left political posturing that he engaged in as a student leader before giving up socialism to launch himself into a career in the Labour Party.
Mr Cohn-Bendit was arguably better at being a student leader than anyone in history, which may have something to do with why the establishment took to demonizing him, apart from the fact that the authorities of the day feared that the student revolt might turn to revolution, which was, in fact, never a possibility. One of the agents of this demonizing, a prefect in Paris in the late 1960s, was recently to be seen on French television chatting to him perfectly amiably about those times, explaining why and how it came to be that Cohn-Bendit was singled out for special treatment in an attempt to defuse the May '68 troubles. He was singled out (despite the fact that he had done nothing illegal and had broken no university rules) partly because of his German citizenship: "Quelle chance!"
Cohn-Bendit is now acknowledged to be such an effective and skilful politician that he is subject to the kind of smear that you have predictably indulged in. During the Euro-election campaign attempts were made to smear Mr Cohn-Bendit in this way, notably by the leader of the French centrist Mouvement Democratique (MoDem), Francois Bayrou, who has paid dearly for doing so.
Carry on smearing, old boy. You are doing a grand job of discrediting anglo-unionism.
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#79 Brownedov
For goodness sake, Brownedov, don't provide verifiable facts and irrefutable sources of evidence! You know how Reluctant-Cowpat hates it when you do that!
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Re #33 Reluctant-Expat
'cue the "well, Labour also never delivered on their manifesto!!" as if they makes it all okay'
I really like it when you sink your own argument, it saves me so much time :-)
Carry on ......
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#80 Aikenheed
Good point.
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Brownedov re your 79
Thank you for pointing out that "error" I must admit that I never noticed it. I think I was just blown away with the headline, that plus the fact that the Scotsman would never make an error in their figures that would make the SNP look any less successful than they actually were, would they.
First we had Macleod in the Times praising the SNP result, and I have just come across an article by Cochrane in The Telegraph,
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/5487293/While-Gordon-Brown-was-the-SNPs-biggest-electoral-asset-Alex-Salmond-deserves-his-share-of-the-credit.html
Which funnily enough you will not find in the Scotland section. The tears must have been flowing all over his keyboard as he wrote it, but for Cochrane reasonably balanced.
Happy days.
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#85 bighullabaloo
Fair point, but I think he's gone off shift now, so I'm probably safe tonight. I'll wear a tin hat if I post tomorrow.
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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Brownedov
bighullabaloo re 89.
This is about the time that he changes to Derek Barker.
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#88 dubbieside
The only reason I highlighted the error was that R-E seemed to think well enough of the erroneous bit to quote it. Otherwise, I'd have let it be as a huge improvement over their regular fare.
In fact, it and other recently highlighted articles in the Herald and the London press do seem a little less stridently in favour of the status quo. As with Brian, I suppose. I think he does really try to be balanced but cannot quite manage it.
In the Alan Cochrane article you link to, I particularly liked his: "For his part, Mr Gray must find a way through Alex Salmond's formidable armour if Labour in Scotland is not to simply stand back helplessly and watch the onward march of the Nats."
I'm not quite sure whether this was sarcasm of the highest order or a desperate belief that Gray, unlike Duff Gordon, may be capable of changing himself.
[Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]
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Nationalism? It's patriotism.. Something Alistair Darling told the FT he didn't believe in when it comes to the economy.
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I see Brown is now talking about using the Alternative Vote system in single-member constituencies for Westminster elections.
That would mean in Scotland that we would have
Party lists for Europe and the Scottish Parliament list MSPs
FPTP for constituency MSPs
Multi-member wards with AV for local elections
Single-member constituencies with AV for Westminster.
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#90 dubbieside
I don't think you can reasonably suggest that RE and derek are the same person. derek's posts have much more clarity.
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#89
Brownedov,a tin hat to go with your tin ears, you just haven't got a GNU have you?.
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#93
The AV system, 1st preference 2nd preference, it seems to work in the London mayoral elections however oldnat fails to say that the Prime Minister is only suggesting new electoral systems.
Constitutionally it's a bit like a national conversation!
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Perhaps in Scotland we could lead the way and rid ourselves of the shame of bigotry.
One country, many cultures. But some people cannot tolerate another's religion.
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#88 dubbieside
My #91 has been referred to the mods for quoting a whole sentence from Cochrane's article, so this is a repeat posting, quoting only two words directly.
The only reason I highlighted the error was that R-E seemed to think well enough of the erroreous bit to quote it. Otherwise, I'd have let it be as a huge improvement over their regular fare.
In fact, it and other recently highlighted articles in the Herald and the London press do seem a little less stridently in favour of the status quo. Not quite defeated, but almost reconciled with the facts, sometimes. As with Brian, I suppose. I think he really does try to be balanced but cannot quite manage it.
Near the end of the Alan Cochrane article you link to, there is a suggestion that Mr Gray needs somehow to penetrate Alex Salmond's "formidable armour" or Scottish NuLab will watch the SNP march on inexorably.
I'm not quite sure whether this was sarcasm of the highest order or a desperate belief that Gray, unlike Duff Gordon, may be capable of changing himself.
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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#97 Neil_Small147
I think it important not to generalise too much about religious bigotry in Scotland.
Most of it is tribalism - not religious at all. In the same way that political tribalism has been diminishing, there is a lot of evidence that religious tribalism (as exhibited in West of Scotland schooling) is reducing rapidly as well.
It is clear that, in many areas, the choice of school is influenced by its location as much as its supposed "religious" basis. Many people simply no longer give a damn about that aspect.
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Labour literally have a mountain to surmount in order to secure the confidence that won them 3 terms under Tony bLiar.
I can only see them pulling this off one way - by painting the Tories and SNP as unfit or untrustworthy for governance, which day by day looks like an impossible task.
Call me Dave has a solid plan to get into parliament - wait. Public opinion is that "we the people" want an election and 'Call me Dave' and 'Nick, nice but Thick' have been riding the wave of expense revulsion with thier repeated calls for Labour to capitulate to that demand.
Salmond could wait too & I'd like to see him use the time to focus on winning over the hummers and hayers on the pro's of controlling our own economic future and crucially, building a base of support that gimicky Labour and tory giveaways have no affect on.
The only snag I see is in the form of these "new voting reforms" that Brown is touting. I don't trust him one little bit and far be it from me to call foul before the fact - wouldn't it be convenient if some of these reforms ended up neutralising potentially damaging votes come the general election?
Watch this space.
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#83 Hadrianswall, you are welcome my freind *;o)
Peace!
Bongo *;o)
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It may well! be the the Prime Minister goes on to give that referendum on Europe (grasp I hear oldnat, chocking for breath)I wonder just what type of response a referendum on Europe would get?.
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#98 Brownedov, Quote "I'm not quite sure whether this was sarcasm of the highest order or a desperate belief that Gray, unlike Duff Gordon, may be capable of changing himself?"
...did you watch http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYV4BevwfJ0
cos if you did, you will realise that Gray, Brown, Alexander (of the bendy variety) or Skeletor are what Liebour stand for...
...heck dude, there's no changing them, they are truely in a circular dance of death. And this is mainly because (in their glorified positions) they forgot who holds the real power... The electorate!
Saor Alba!
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#93 oldnat
The AV system as operated for English mayoral elections is certainly less awful than the plurality system, but as a typically NuLab fudge, it's an ersatz version of the French system, where you have to cast your second and only alternative ballot before you know who the top two are, so it still wastes many votes. For that reason alone, it would still leave Westmidden holding the wooden spoon for democracy within the EU.
Perhaps they can't cope with the idea of single-member STV [like Scottish council by-elections] in England for fear of showing up the mathematical inability of "young" voters to cope with ranking a list 1, 2, 3, etc. thanks to their education policies.
That said, anything which made an undemocratic electoral system less so cannot be all bad. The Tories would certainly be harder pressed to argue against it for it would keep the single member constituencies they cherish, while the LibDems would doubtless table amendments but be more or less forced to support it as better than nothing.
It might just help turnout, as only 219 of the 646 MPs elected in 2005 had 50% or more of the votes cast, meaning that their would be 447 marginals, where voting really might count, and that's before taking loss of support since 2005 and incumbancy expense records into account. In Scotland, 20 MPs [Martin, Salmond, 4 LibDem, 14 Lab inc Duff Gordon] had 50%+.
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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In #71 bighullabaloo challenges me to produce facts, analysis and historical context; fair enough ... And in #75 Lily_Hammer makes the even fairer point that my original posting (#59) is off-topic ... Finally, in #77 BoNGO_1 attempts to capture the essence of 'Nationalism', per my own challenge ... Excellent !!! ... Some meaty, meaningful and difficult subjects to tackle ...
Firstly to Lily_Hammer; what can I say, other than mea culpa ??? ... I have plenty to say regarding the leadership, membership and all other ships of all parties, and this Blog was indeed the place to say them - my only defence is that there appeared (appears) to be no other place to raise the (IMHO) much more important issues I chose to drone on about ... Anyway, to stick to the point and properly respond to your accurate observation, my analysis of the kind of person who willingly seeks power is that they are either deeply driven by altruism (very few cases reported) or deeply driven by the love of power (and what they believe it can bring) ... The deeply altruistic, on closer inspection (and this applies to all animals), genrally tend to be motivated ultimately, however unconsciously, by self-interest ... The power-lovers, and it IS a heady brew, can barely conceal their teeth ... It's a frightening spectacle to witness naked ambition, especially when it's dressed poorly and barely able to string two sentences together (for plenty case studies watch any First Minister's Questions ...) ... I will refrain from singling out individual leaders/members of any Party; instead I invite you all to consider if any of YOU would stand, and if so on what basis (for what end) ??? ... If YES, good - at least you have some courage; if NO, please stop posting endless drivel ...
Secondly to bighullabaloo; you're absolutely right, I should put up or shut up ... I'll put up ... The facts are the (undeniable, on paper) figures that describe our situation; population, demographics, geography, economy (GDP, employment, employers, public sector, income raised and spent), resources ... Apart from a sticky and generally unpleasant component of the final case (Oil) I would argue that these are incontrovertible facts ... The analysis of these is of course where everything starts to go badly wrong (but stay with me - please ...); it IS possible to produce an analysis of our (physical) situation without resorting to tedious biases and prejudices - but that doesn't suit everyone ... There are political consequences of the analysis of facts, and politicians are very good (that's what makes them politicians) at picking out this bit of information without that other bit and at using facts out of context to tell a story that suits their ends (see above) ... Finally, and inevitably most controvertially, historical analysis; I'm very easily bored by narrow, country - based history; it is the ultimate out - of - context, open to abuse, dangerous approach to this most vital subject ... I think we can all agree, however, on the general Big Things that have shaped OUR Nation (early settlements by Stone Age folk, the influx of Celtic people, bits of Roman Empire, the tensions arising from conflicts between Britons, Picts, Scots (Irish) and indeed The English, post 1066 Anglo - French - Scottish alliances, dalliances, wars and peaces ... All that stuff is the stuff of (not much disputed) record; later, however, the issues surrounding how we came to form the Union ARE thorny and pertinent and should be opened up here to see if we can shed light on the roots of (our) Nationalism - from this period right up until the discovery of that unpleasant substance in 'our' waters the Union was relatively off-topic (no-one much cared) -today is different, as I think you know ...
Finally to BoNGO_1; I have pride in many things - not one to do with how I am, or might be, governed ... I'm not sure how being 'self-determined, multi-cultural and independent' can give rise to pride, in the sense I normally take it to mean ... What I am NOT proud of is the complete lack of focus on fixing the horrors that are our REAL problems - unemployment, crime, drug/alcohol abuse, a failing Education System, crap health and a super-bloated Public Sector (job creation in the current climate aside) ... No Party (or Government) had made headway with any of these, so the link to Independence is spurious ... Back to the point; my contention is that, following what I said above re history, adopting a narrow view of our history (and its implied signifance) is tantamount to Racism (by which I mean an active dislike of other Races, whatever THEY are ... In this case let's just say 'not Scottish' - of course here comes the big opener for that can of worms - what on Earth could it possibly mean to discriminate on the basis of an essentially random event like the location on the Planet of where and to whom you were born ??? ... Yet, that is what any form of Nationalism must mean; discrimination to some degree on the basis of the consequences of the accident of birth ... Just daft ...) ... Sorry for the very long gap between opening and closing brakets ... In a very PC way I want there to be NO discrimination on ANY basis; we haven't even started on Religion ...
I'm really happy that we are at least (at last) talking about this stuff ...
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Saw an absolutely brilliant cartoon in one of the free papers today:
2 men passing a house with 3 posters in the window:
Well done Gordon; Gordon is the man to lead Labour; Gordon should stay as PM.
One man says: That's David Cameron's house
I'm paraphrasing the posters.....anyway I laughed out loud...nearly got thrown off the bus.....
Gordon's calculations strained from the outset: Shahid Malik's expenses in today's Telegraph again.
They may have survived the Euros, but will they survive the Telegraph?
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#94 oldnat
One set of posts - guess which - seems to me to contain no trace of an appreciation of politics as anything other than technique . . . and rather shabby technique at that.
According, however, to supporters of Europe Ecologie such as Stephane Hessel (a former French diplomat, UN ambassador and Resistance fighter who was born a German), politics, although it may reasonably be considered up to a point to be about technique provided that this involves reasoning, should rather be considered to be not beautiful, great or visionary unless it utilizes everything that culture can bring to it of imagination and openness to broad and grand principled conceptions of how things should be. It needs ideals, in other words, and protagonists who possess them and are capable of giving expression to them.
That has conceivably something to do with why Scotland still supports the SNP government, especially in a climate of UK decadence and seediness, and why it is right for SNP MEPs to be in the Euro-parliamentary group of ecologists and autonomists that they have chosen to join, with which, incidentally, Hessel, who contributed to the drafting of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, is himself proud to be associated.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#106, quote "I'm not sure how being 'self-determined, multi-cultural and independent' can give rise to pride, in the sense I normally take it to mean"
... so how would you 'Normally' take this to mean??? ( *:o% me is confused!!!)
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#104 BoNG0_1
"there's no changing them, they are truely in a circular dance of death"
I fear you're right there, but the sands do seem to be running out for them at last. I did watch the video - excellent.
Goodnight all
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Laso, Brownedov, #105, your fascination with racism and nationalism as being one of the same is lame.
...did you watch...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYV4BevwfJ0
Ps. I do not dis-like any other races, I was Born in England to Scottish parent's (one of which came from Irish decendants - hence my sirname!), grew up in Germany (I have a German grandmother) and finally moved to Scotland when I was a child.... I have also travelled extensively round Europe and have fallen in love with Greece, Prague, Barcelona and Berlin... so what is your point caller? You suggest I; quote "Dislike other races"??? ...and that my attitude is "tantamount to Racism"???
I think you need your bed and should use the time to sober up a little!
... heck, and they wonder why more and more folk think Scotland should run her own affairs?
Peace and good night,
Bongo *;o)
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Sorry Brownedov, post #111, I typed your name instead of post #106, The_Concept_Of_Mind in my post #112...
I think I scrolled back to #105, instead of #106... easy mistake!, but the post was definately a response to #106.... not yourself dude.
Hope I am forgiven *;o)
Good night and Saor Alba!
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theres some long winded guff on here , but everyone is entitled to their opinion.
From my point of view Scotland's independence is needed for numerous simple reasons.
We have supposed to have had a democratic system in place for hundreds of years, yet apart from a few small crumbs Scotland gets the smelly end of the stick.
Thousands of lives were given in the name of Scotland, yet the land was hived off, tricked , removed , conned , from the very people who lived on it, by supposed more learned, more intelligent people.
We all know about the Union agreement and how the rich sold out to save their fortunes, how England blocked trading routes, how the church got involved and the land owners etc etc.
So fast forward a few hundred years, is Scotland better for it ?
I say not, the further away from Westminster the quieter the voices carry.
Put aside the oil (even though it is hard to ignore) Scotland can and will survive outside the union. Better small fish in a small bowl than small fish in a bowl of sharks. We have seen a glimpse of what can be, and rather than have to go ask mummy for money, we can buckle down get on with it and make our own way in the world.
And not to replicate the last few hundred years of the union , a supposed mature and developed political system, because nothing has been learned.
Best to get back to simple ways , we have the infrastructure to live a really rich and fulfilling life in Scotland, better than it is now.
The only thing the Scottish Government can learn from all this is that there is life outside Glasgow and Edinburgh and they should not forget this.
Once Scotland gets its independence, then a new fair system can be put in place. One where people from the local community are co opted into being the area representative, do away with career politics. Everything out in the open.
It will take decades to get things right, to sort out the drunks and the addicts, the malingerers , to change society , to give them hope of a better life, where people and not government matters, government is only there to carry out the admin functions, to aid us , not to live our lives for us, this is what I hope for in an independent Scotland.
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short winded guff, see:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PO5Gh3QGFI
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#114 romeplebian
"Once Scotland gets its independence, then a new fair system can be put in place. One where people from the local community are co opted into being the area representative, do away with career politics. Everything out in the open."
That got me thinking on a quote I read recently:
Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one. English born influential American political pamphleter during the American Revolution; Thomas Paine
Another I thought was suitable for the current situation:
Government is an evil; it is only the thoughtlessness and vices of men that make it a necessary evil. When all men are good and wise, government will of itself decay. Percy Bysshe Shelley (desired social justice)
Also on the same theme:
There are no necessary evils in government. Its evils exist only in its abuses. Andrew 'Stonewall' Jackson Confederate General
We have a chance to shape our future in a way no previous generation has ever had, I only hope we choose to use it.
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New Labour Cabinet, Old Labour Cabinet ways !
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/mps-expenses/mps-expenses-rebuilding-politic/5489702/Gordon-Brown-accused-of-expenses-cover-up-over-Shahid-Maliks-return-to-Government.html
Wansanshoo.
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#113 BoNG0_1
Umbrage not taken. Let he who is without sin and all that.
The_Concept_Of_Mind's #106 and other posts aren't sufficiently coherent for me to be clear whether s/he has anything to say or not but the suggestions of racism are clearly ludicrous. I suppose the $64,000 question would be Against whom?, since racists always require a target - something entirely different from national pride.
I suppose it's possible that this is a new tactic from a NuLab supermulticulturalist, but your suggestion that s/he may be suffering from excessive consumption of what the late, great 'Fats' Waller described as liquid ham and eggs is probably more on the money.
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#115 irnbru_addict
Great link - thanks
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#106 The_Concept_of_Mind
I think the pride would come from standing on our own two feet,so to speak. Often we are told how we receive a disproportionate level of funding from Westminster, we couldn't survive on our own, if we were to be given partial responsibility for raising our own revenue it should be from a steady source as we could not cope with the fluctuation of oil prices. We have dreadful health record, high levels of poverty, the list goes on. So the status quo appears not to be working for us, if we could achieve something slightly better would that not be a source of pride? ....or would that be racism.
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#117 Wansanshoo
"New Labour Cabinet, Old Labour Cabinet ways !"
Too true, and a good read. As Norman Baker MP says, Gordon Brown has fallen at the first fence on the transparency course. There's a shock, not.
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Briwnedov re your 98
I do not think that Cochrane was being sarcastic, but there is no doubt he was not happy with what he was writing.
I think that the dead tree press are starting to wake up to the fact that Scotland is changing politically and that they need to change with it. They will not do this willingly but grudgingly and very slowly, but to survive they need to change their anti SNP stance and go back to what they should be about, presenting facts, and their interpretation of these facts, rather than as now presenting their interpretations as undisputed facts.
Macleods article was particularly interesting give all the time and space he has in vested in "Jellypiecegate"
Old Nat re your 94
You did not have to wait long for your answer, I think the eloquence shone through post 95.
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#122 dubbieside
"I do not think that Cochrane was being sarcastic, but there is no doubt he was not happy with what he was writing."
We're agreed there. Having slept on it, I suppose he was just trying to make the best of a bad job, but clearly has as little confidence in Mr Gray's ability to turn things around as he does in Duff Gordon. Like the US media this time last year, exit strategies are being prepared.
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#106
Language is a trap into which the unwary tumble, particularly when given a nudge in the small of the back by the wary. Terms need to be defined before they can be used or discussed coherently.
The Scottish National Party declares that it advocates a form of civic nationalism, which may be defined as a doctrine which is focused on cultural and territorial rather than hereditary connections between people. Civic nationalism promotes common cultural values and allows people of different origins to assimilate into the nation.
This is to say that the Scottish independence question has nothing to do with ethnic nationalism, which is based on the hereditary connections of people. Ethnic nationalism specifically seeks to unite all people of a certain ethnic heritage. Ethnic nationalism does not seek to include people of other ethnicities.
The SNP's doctrine of civic nationalism does bear comparison with another doctrine, however, and that is what is known as liberation nationalism, which belongs in an internationalist context and concerns advocacy of national liberation without racial or religious divisions.
As the SNP sets out specifically to include people of all ethnicities and religions within the community of Scotland within a constitutional framework which would allow that community to defend its vital interests within the European Union, which, unfortunately, the UK may be about to become increasingly detached from as UKIP gains support in England, it may be maintained credibly and with confidence that the oft-repeated British nationalist smear concerning racism in connection with the Scottish independence movement is wholly without substance and is plainly an unsophisticated device to trap the unwary, as is the approach which involves asserting superior intellect in order to prop up an argument which is intellectually unsound.
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It's a great day.
Great to see Gordon Brown consolidated as PM and leader of the Labour Party - just what we wanted. (and as the Tories ordered).
Great to see the politics of UK and Scotland steadily diverging.
Great to note that the SNP got the highest percentage vote of any party in the UK at the Euro election.
Great to see record numbers of policeman on the beat in Scotland headlined right across the Scottish press. Only kidding on that one.
Has anybody got the Glenrothes figures yet?
We are in a new situation. I believe the SNP is starting to replace the Labour and LibDem parties in Scotland.
Those of us who support the SNP must learn how to behave in our new position of strength.
It is very obvious that, no matter the circumstances, the SNP does and says nothing negative. The SNP does not attack others. It puts forward a determined positive vision at all times. It works. We must be generous to our opponents,no matter their behaviour to us. After all we have to convert them.
To paraphase Alastair Gray (I think) we must behave as if we are in the first days of a better country.
We are the future.
It will only be worth having if it is cleaner,kinder, more honest and a lot better in every way than what we have now.
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#106 The_Concept_Of_Mind
"to bighullabaloo; you're absolutely right, I should put up or shut up"
Okay, I've read your response in #106. Looking forward to seeing you actually "put up" - or was that it?
"I'm really happy that we are at least (at last) talking about this stuff ..."
You seem to be under the mistaken impression "we" are talking about "this stuff". The problem is I'm not seeing anything in "the stuff" you write that is relevant to actual reality.
Why not state just one, single "fact" and then the rest of us can consider whether it is "true" or not? That's what you seem to be advocating but I'm not seeing you actually doing any "putting up".
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#124 Mind_My_Concept
Excellent post, clearly delineating the huge difference between civic and ethnic nationalism. I fully agree that the increasing euroscepticism in England is worrying, and suspect it may prove more influential in breaking up the UK than anything else.
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#125 sneckedagain
Good post, but I have to take very mild issue with your:
"Great to see Gordon Brown consolidated as PM and leader of the Labour Party - just what we wanted. (and as the Tories ordered)."
True, Duff Gordon's continued 'leadership' can only be good for the 'anyone but Labour' vote, but there's a price in misery to be paid for every day that situation continues. At least the SNP and PC are showing they realise this with the debate they're having this afternoon.
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I've said recently that the Scottish media will quickly resort to type as soon as the news agenda is not being set by the English press and so it has.
A few on here have commented that The Herald and other's seem to be altering their stance and approach to politics as a result of the Euro election result - DO NOT BE FOOLED !!
It's 'ack to the future' in today's Herald which has as it's lead story 'Sturgeon in U-turn on homes lifeline'
The article uses the now familiar language and phrases that we have come to expect from the 'Scottish' press. Phrases like 'The government was forced' and 'Ms Sturgeon provoked a storm of protest last November'.
Who were these protesters then? Well step forward Labour MSP's and one Mike Dailly of the Govan Law Centre.
Readers of the blog will no doubt recall that Mr Dailly has a knack of appearing on the BBC to 'criticise' the SNP in the middle of election campaigns, he was allowed air time during the Glasgow East campaign and then during the Glenrothes campaign. This Euro campaign saw another representative from the Govan Law Centre fill the role.
Cathy Jamieson is reported as saying "Ms Sturgeon must apologise to families who have lost their homes". Jamieson failing to acknowledge that Brown's culpability in this is huge, through his refusal to curb the excessive lending by banks that caused house prices to escalate.
In fact Nicola Surgeon explained in November that current legislation afforded Scottish homeowners at least as much protection as Engliah homeowners. Labour's plans had no teeth as they did not compel lenders to adhere to them.
Sturgeon had explained that the situation was being constantly reviewed and that any recommendations by an expert group of lawyers, mortgage lenders, debt advisers and consumer bodies would be looked at seriously.
Well, that group have reported back and the recommendations are being acted upon - in the 'Scottish' media however this constitutes a 'U' turn.
So, like I said - do not be fooled by a coupple of journalists offering grudging praise to a victorious SNP.
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From the makers of 'Forrest Trump' and 'Get MacAskill' comes the new Holyrood blockbuster:
THE 'U' TURN
Here's what the critics say:
David Maddox, The Scotsman - "More shocking than 'Savage Cuts'"
Glenn Campbell, BBC - "Hits harder than 'Suffers Blow'"
Brian Taylor, BBC - "Excellent follow up to 'Minister Attacked'"
Jim Devine, MP - "Great, it grabs the publics attention"
Loosely based on a true story, events and names have been contrived in order to protect the guilty.
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#128
What a sorry state of affairs you portray Brownedov, you obviously have no idea what a conservative government would mean to the peoples of Britain. Today the conservatives announced a 10% cut across the board of all public expenditure.
The conservative party will have that referendum on Europe! giving that the whole of England and most of Scotland would vote against membership of the EU, again I have to say your misconstrued idea that a Scotland within Europe, may well be all over within the next 15 months.
What ever the next 5 years or so brings, the majority of people will remember, that it was again an SNP charge that brought about a revival of the conservatives.
It's just plain stupid to believe that the SNP gains in the EU election were not because of protests votes, of course they were, the SNP is the party of protest votes because they are useless at government and delivering on their pledges.
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Anyone want to see a real 'U' turn?
This one took less than 24 hours - good to see that Gordon has lost none of his political savvy.
Click Here
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#129 greenockboy
"This Euro campaign saw another representative from the Govan Law Centre fill the role."
This proves they DO take note of people like you exposing their repeated (and thus predictable) use of what are effectively professional, politically-biased "protestors".
They can substitute a fresh "face" but behind the face lies the same hidden agenda: try to stop the SNP achieving independence for Scotland.
Let's test out whether this is true or not.
There is a by-election coming up in Glasgow North East. Watch out for the appearance of a "protestor" - in some way connected with the Govan Law Centre - who we are expected to accept as not harbouring some pre-existing grudge against the SNP (i.e a random, "unbiased" protester motivated purely by a genuine, naturally occurring event that has led to a legitimate grievance).
If this "protestor" appears in our media during the Glasgow North East by-election blaming the SNP for some fabricated "grievance" then this post will serve as irrefutable proof that that their "protest" is in fact merely an attempt to discredit the SNP - motivated by an anti-SNP bias that existed BEFORE it was given a voice through our all-too-accommodating media.
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#128 Derek
A protest vote is what might have been expected against a less-than-popular government at an average mid-term election.
Your government is in terminal meltdown, abject denial and desperate self-preservation mode - as of course was the previous Labour government when it also self-imploded virtually before its opponents even laid a glove on it.
The 15% achieved by this all-time most unpopular Labour regime is best described as a 'sympathy vote', which they were damned lucky to receive.
Away with your hollow protests.
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#134 dougie
The SNP say they want an Independent Scotland within the European union,
single currency and all. How many people voting on the EU last Thursday were voting to accept the full powers of the European union?.
Dougie the now government of the UK has faced an unprecedented load of circumstances, from MP's expenses to the biggest recession since WW11, of course there were protest votes against the government, Christ! the BNP got two seat through the protest vote and labour supporters not voting.
Dougie, now that the SNP claim to be the national party of Scotland in Europe, will they offer the people of Scotland a referendum on the European question of full integration, remember that the tories have already made that referendum a pledge. Before you sight the quote, it's not a devolved matter, remember Calman left open the question of Scotlands currencys.
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#128 derek
Now, if last Thursdays vote had been about derekbarker getting the prize for the most lucid and sensible poster on this blog, then you would have seen a protest vote! Not from me, of course, I enjoy having to use my three remaining brain cells to try and work out what you think you are havering on about. Keep up the good work and may your health hold up against the cuts in the National Health that Global has caused.
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131 Derekbarker
''The conservative party will have that referendum on Europe!''
Tory Policy
''If the Lisbon Treaty is not yet in force at the time of the next general election, and a Conservative Government is elected, we would put the Treaty to a referendum of the British people, recommending a 'no' vote. If the British people rejected the Treaty, we would withdraw Britain's ratification of it.''
''But if the Treaty is in force we will be in a different situation. In our view, then, political integration would have gone too far, the Treaty would lack democratic legitimacy in this country and we would not let matters rest there.''
''A Conservative Government would also amend the 1972 European Communities Act so that any future EU Treaty that transfers powers from the United Kingdom to the European Union would be subject to a referendum of the British people. The British people must be in charge of their future in Europe.''
Derek, perhaps you could explain to us what ''we would not let the matter rest there'' actually means, what other option does David Cameron have, other than an attempt to renegotiate ?
Wansanshoo
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#136 handclapping
Come on! Alex Salmonds policies have cost Scotland 20.000 thousands jobs because he cant find an alternative to his Scottish future trust scheme.
Alex Salmonds arc of prosperity went directly to the arc of insolvency when he suggested that 100Bn be pumped into one bank.
Jeez! funclapping, do you really think the SNP holds the confidence of Scotland?. Hee Hee Hee
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#122 dubbieside
Near juxtaposition I thought!
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" remember Calman left open the question of Scotlands currencys"
On what authority does Calman decide whether it's a devolved matter or not?
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#131 derekbarker
As your post was almost coherent for a change, I'll try to respond to it.
"What a sorry state of affairs you portray Brownedov, you obviously have no idea what a conservative government would mean to the peoples of Britain. Today the conservatives announced a 10% cut across the board of all public expenditure."
Yes, the polity of the UK is a sorry state of affairs and the economy of the UK even sorrier, thanks to your chums. Having never worked in the UK public sector, I was briefly unemployed twice during the Thatcher years, so I do know what government by the official unionists means, and I've seen quite a bit of what your NuLab unionist chums have done to the peoples of Britain, too. I think the jury is out on whether the 10% is what the Tories claim NuLab will cut or whether it's their own proposed minimum, but clearly something will eventually have to be done to bring the budget into balance or sterling will go the way of the Zim$. While your chums hide the figures of PFI and pension liabilities, we're all [even the Tories!] only guessing at how bad the real figures really are.
"The conservative party will have that referendum on Europe! giving that the whole of England and most of Scotland would vote against membership of the EU, again I have to say your misconstrued idea that a Scotland within Europe, may well be all over within the next 15 months."
If you had read many of my posts you would know that one of the reasons I cannot support the unLib unDems is their ratting on the referendum promise. Had I been able to vote, I would have voted 'Yes' to the Lisbon Treaty as the lesser of various evils, but the fact that no vote was called was an affront to democracy. In any event, although I agree that England may well vote against the EU in the next 15 months, I'm intrigued that you think the eurosceptics will also win in Scotland when the four main pro-EU parties [SNP, Lab, LibDem & Green] won 68.66% of the Scottish vote in the Euro election just held compared to the 24.51% of the three main eurosceptic parties [Con, UKIP & BNP]. Does that reflect your opinion of how well NuLab will recover under Duff Gordon, Mr Gray and their cohorts?
"What ever the next 5 years or so brings, the majority of people will remember, that it was again an SNP charge that brought about a revival of the conservatives."
NO! NuLab brought it on themselves with their lies, spin, broken manifesto pledges, sleaze and uselessness. Because Scotland is inherently less right-wing than England, it also brought a huge boost to the SNP.
"It's just plain stupid to believe that the SNP gains in the EU election were not because of protests votes, of course they were, the SNP is the party of protest votes because they are useless at government and delivering on their pledges."
Of course there was some protest voting against NuLab, but so far as I can determine the SNP were the sole left-wing governing party in the EU who received a boost in their level of support. As for "delivering on their pledges", can you name a minority government in any age or any country who did better in delivering on their pledges half way through their first term? If you can, I wil discuss the matter further.
Anyway, time to move on to the new thread, I think.
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#137 Wansanshoe
Honestly some people who think about their phony power!
I suppose you think Ireland must ratify the treaty.
Many say the treaty is nothing more than the old constitution of the EU
and for your info, Cameron faces a big back lash if indeed he does support the likes of Ken Clark on Europe.
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#132 greenockboy
"Anyone want to see a real 'U' turn?"
Good link - thanks.
#134 Dougie-Dubh
"The 15% achieved by this all-time most unpopular Labour regime is best described as a 'sympathy vote', which they were damned lucky to receive."
Well said!
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#140
Yes! good question! on what authority do you question a commissioners enquiry?
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131
I rather think that I already pointed out the a vote for the SNP was indeed a "protest" vote and as Unionist Labour and Tory and LibDem votes all slumped in comparison it must be a protest vote against the continuance of the Union
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#144
I have no authority and neither does the commission, it is an advisory body. One which is becoming more and more irrelevant.
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Derekbarker.
''Honestly some people who think about their phony power!''
''I suppose you think Ireland must ratify the treaty.''
''Many say the treaty is nothing more than the old constitution of the EU
and for your info, Cameron faces a big back lash if indeed he does support the likes of Ken Clark on Europe.''
Derek, it's a great answer, sadly for some other question. Let me try again. Can you explain to us what ''we would not let the matter rest there'' actually means, what other option does David Cameron have, other than an attempt to renegotiate ?
Wansanshoo
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#141 Brownedov
I'm surprised you put the labour party in the unionist category, after all it was the labour party that legislated for devolution (even with the protest of the SNP)
PFI and PPP are no more expensive than the pure public service way. Are you against new schools and new hospitals as a principle.
The conservatives opposed the stimulus plan and the banking bail-outs,
there's no surprise there, the conservatives are the party that cuts public spending. I sure you know the Thatcher way of economics.
Yes! labour did pull away from the referendum on the new Lisbon treaty(i guess the fear was there, that it may not have been ratified, no excuse although)As far as your assumption that the majority of Scotland are pro European, I doubt very much that is the case, there does seem to be a sweeping mod across the whole of Europe, that suggest more people are against the EU than ever before.
In a supposedly age of consensus I don't think you can continuously argue that the reason for not getting your manifesto pledges passed is because of a minority position. The closer truth is that the SNP shoot above their mark and what they could afford, they must have got a bad accountancy report?.
I think you should remember that the SNP did finally get their budget through parliament and just how they spend the 33Bn is a subject for opposition.
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#148 derek
You wee miracle worker you! I dunno where you got them from but, if you've the figures that show PFI is cheaper than direct borrowing by the Cooncil, you've got to publish them. Man, they'd be like star dust.
Don't be like the wee lad who put his hand up when the teacher asked "Does anyone know what is Electricity?" and had to say he'd forgot when the teacher said "Well?".
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149 handclapping
No other than Mr Swinney when he argued the case to keep monkland opened!
Well, watts, perhaps you can do an Arthur Connan Doyle and explain your lack of SNP evidence.
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#148 derekbarker
"I'm surprised you put the labour party in the unionist category, after all it was the labour party that legislated for devolution"
It legislated for asymmetric devolution as the minimum it could get away with and in order to feather it's own nest in the hope of retaining power over the devolved nations forever. Granted the "officials" wanted to give even less.
"PFI and PPP are no more expensive than the pure public service way."
In which case it's very odd that Duff Gordon has always been so reluctant to publish the numbers.
"Yes! labour did pull away from the referendum on the new Lisbon treaty(i guess the fear was there, that it may not have been ratified, no excuse although)"
Graciously admitted, which coupled with their other broken promises prompts the question: How could you ever trust them again?
"As far as your assumption that the majority of Scotland are pro European, I doubt very much that is the case, there does seem to be a sweeping mod across the whole of Europe"
I suspect you overstate it, but it's called democracy. I don't expect everyone to share my views or believe that any politicians can be entirely trusted.
I have no idea what your last two paras mean, or how you think pledges given on the basis of forming a majority government can be binding when that majority is unavailable.
It's really time to move on now.
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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#150 derek
Well I've searched the Parliament's website and I canna find it. Can you give us a bit more help as to where they are? I did find that buying out the West Lothian College PFI cost £27 million; that's ridiculous. The banks and contractors must believe money grows on trees!
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#153 handclapping
An extract from a previous FMQ's
"in spite of any amount of explanation, it is difficult to see how the SNP scheme would differ significantly from that which it is replacing.
It may not quite be the "shambles" that Labour's Andy Kerr says it is, but Alex Salmond and John Swinney, his Finance Minister, are having a terrible time trying to explain things adequately.
And it is difficult to disagree with Mr Kerr's suggestion that all the Nats are doing is changing the name of the system a bit like Marathon chocolate bars becoming Snickers, he quipped. "
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#151 Brownedov
Yip lets close the book again, one final take however.
The SNP government and yourself seem to be confused about the budget and especially the spending of the budget, look! you can't bank it and save the budget and try to convince the public that you have spending under control?. You have got to spend the budget on the nations needs and requirements. I hope you understand that!
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Can I just point out to you Handclapping that here in Britain we don't use the kind of labor you would find building the crows nest in CHINA, I like to think that the long hard struggle of trade unionism in Britain has helped to develop a better pay and training structure.
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#153 derek
Come off it sunshine. You know darn well it was PFI and not the SFT so come up with the goods or be considered a liar.
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#156 handclapping
Ha! the Mr confucius stuff! many hands make light work! and many sticky fingers get burned.
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#157
Well, there you have it handclapping, logic like that you just can't argue with. lol
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#158
Come off it flaky! no need to go all white about the truth.
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#158 snowthistle
I'm so sorry. This is abuse, argument is two doors down the hall. With appologies to MPFC for associating them, even peripherally, with derek, who is a joker of an entirely different sort. ( Batman?)
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Why are proven liars and racists allowed to publish on the BBC?
You'd think after the fuss they made over the Brit-nats being elected on Thursday that they'd ban all those Brit-nats that infest these boards with their Scotophobia.
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#148
By the year 2012 the Scottish Government will be paying £1billion per year to service PFI debts on schools and hospitals that Labour built and didn't pay for.
By the year 2035 many of the schools will need replaced or complately refurbished but we will still be paying for them and wont be able to replace them.
I'm complately happy with the idea that we will build no more schools that we can't afford. This is an attractive stance with the general public so the SNP is quite relaxed about it.
The way ahead is as the Scottish Goverment has decided with the new Southern General - being built out of current revenues.
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#160
Brilliant post! I was having a bad day but you've just cheered me up. Thanks
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#124 (Mind_My_Concept) ... Thank you; an excellent articulation of the position of the SNP and more importantly a welcome set of definitions that can be used to properly frame the debate (of course, you're perfectly right; such definitions should have been nade BEFORE launching into any intellectually unsound diatribe ...) ...
I'd just like to make clear that, despite the time of my last posting (and what some have implied by it), there was no artificial stimulation involved in the formulation of my piece (hic) ...
Anyway, your clarification of the various types of Nationalism is useful only in so far as it completely fails to make anything clear (it is couched in the fuzzy, warm terms too often used by those who are afraid to face the harsh truths about people's behaviour in groups - as ever, more of that later); is there really a clear, blue-water gap between 'Cultural and Territorial' connections and 'Ethnic' ones ??? ... Is not a group of people, living over generations in a Territory and sharing ideas and values (let's call that 'Culture' for the moment - in keeping with the current fashion for making definitions), virtually (in fact) IDENTICAL to an Ethnic group ??? ... And if so, is it not the case that the value of such a distinction disappears ??? ... 'Ethnic' has come to acquire unacceptable overtones so I can see the need to find a way make such a distinction, but it's false and doesn't stand up to interrogation ...
(Before going any further I wan't to say one more thing; I am not in any way trying to assert 'superior intelligence' - I honestly wish for a debate that openly examines the issues and brings the kind of clarification that you have started upon, for the sole purpose of gaining a better understanding of our situation and the merits and demerits of the options facing us ... Really ...) ...
Back to the fray; I had no intention whatsoever to smear anyone with anything ... Looking back at what I actually said, you'll note I simply highlighted that it was hard to find a credible definition (of Nationalism) that didn't eventually slide into something AKIN TO Racism ... The basis for that comment is exactly that extant definitions hold no water (as I've alluded to above); they are devices, almost spin, designed to avoid the very slipping I'm afraid of - and my point is that the WORDS used in your definintions of the various forms of Nationalism (Cultural, Territorial, Ethnic) are themselves polemical (two anyway; 'Territorial' seems quite innocent) - certainly in a way that makes it unsuitable for them to be employed here (as I've also alluded to above) in this most important debate ... Did any of that make sense ??? ... It did to me as I wrote it but I'm too scared to read it back over ...
'Liberation Nationalism' holds out the promise of progress, however it opens a quite different can of worms ...
I don't believe my argument to be intellectually unsound (gasp); I think you protest too much ... It is, however poorly articulated, based upon my understanding of group behaviour from an evolutionary (rather than Cultural, Territorial, Ethnic or other false-dawn term) perspective; indeed, the same applies (as I wrote somewhere here 200 years ago) to individual's bahaviour - that is NOT intellectually unsound (even if it turns out to be wrong) ... The essential truth of our nature (in this regard) is that we struggle to balance the urge to be different with the urge to fit in; and that struggle manifests itself in ways that we can all see on a Saturday night in Glasgow A + E Units, and in schoolyards and in Blogs like this one ... And it influences at the highest (lowest ???) level; on Government Policy ... Why else do we still tolerate the shame and embarrassment of segregation in schools ??? ... More cans opened ...
Despite dreaming of achieving the odd brilliant rhetorical flourish, I do TRY to avoid sophistry; language is much worse and better than a trap ...
Finally finally finally; I'n mot sure who are the unwary you think I'm setting out to trap (with my plainly unsophisticated device - your last point) - could they be the very ones who eschew examining the meanings of things, or are not encouraged to so do ??? ...
I look forward to your response and geniunely believe your opening gambit of definitions is a huge step forward in 'raising the bar' on the arguments ...
ZZZZzzzz ...
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