A political career shelved
Mr Jim Devine is said to be considering his future - what remains of it following the verdict from the grandly titled Labour Party NEC endorsements panel.
Big name, simple outcome. Mr Devine will not be welcome to represent the party at the next general election.
It is, in truth, an ignoble ending to a relatively brief parliamentary career, culminating in accusations over his expenses, including a claim for 66 metres of office shelving.
He was only returned as an MP in September 2005 at a by-election following the death of Robin Cook.
The option of resigning immediately and forcing a by-election remains open to Mr Devine - who protests his innocence.
Or he could carry on until the general version is called by, at the latest, next year.
Either way, it would appear his political career will prove notably short-lived.
Shelved, in short.
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Go for it Jim - let the electorate see that paying money to someone using a false address, false VAT No, and buying your furniture using OUR money, and a heap of shelving to boot, is what Nu Liebour stands for.
U HAVE been hung out to dry - u must be thick if u thought Clown, Darling, Balls, etc etc etc etc etc were ever going to resign or go down.
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Mr Devine has no right to hold on to his seat until the election now he has been so disgraced that even his party has abandoned him.
Of course, judging from past experience, expect him to do what is best for himself (financially) and his party (electorally) by hanging on to the bitter end; sacrificing democracy and his constituents, who will have to "make do" with an utterly discredited "Honourable Member" likely for the best part of a year!
The Brown Government is falling apart, and is driven only by the PM's personal delusions and Lord Mandy's ambition. This is not an acceptable state of affairs in a supposedly democratic country.
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#66 Metres
Perhaps Jim was under the impression that Ayatollah Brown could help his cause with some devine intervention ?
Wansanshoo.
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I suspect that his annoyance/disappointment may arise from his view that he and a few other 'lower level' labour people have been served up as evidence of the Party's hard line on these matters whilst no action is taken, or even questions asked, against Hoon, Darling, Balls/Cooper, Smith, McNulty, Blears etc etc.
It is ironic that he gets ditched for a few shelves costing a couple of thousand whereas another Lothian chap all too found of his less than-man-of-the-people tones, Tam Dalyell, swanns off with nearly £20k's worth of fancy dan bookshelves as a wee retirement present to self.
Expenses ain't going to go away and the public, in my view, don't think that it is appropriate that the dodgy treasurers in charge of the 'club funds' should be the ones to sort it.
A mass clear out is all that will do so that there is no one left who is tainted. In that respect JD would probably have had to go as well.
For the main part he was a decent back bencher and a fair constituency MP, but his parlaimentary affairs seem to have been a bit of a guddle (that is somewhere between a muddle and a fiddle) as someone else once said
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Brian
Given that if he hangs on to the General Election, after 4.5 years as an MP, he gets a "redundancy" payment, aka Resettlement Grant, of £32,383, of which £30,000 tax free, when one of us can only hope for a maximum of £10,500 after 20 years, and he gets zilch if he goes for a by-election, it will be interesting to see his choice and to speculate on the reasons for his making it.
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Well, thanks to Peter Hutcheon from the Sunday Herald and no other Scottish journalist. If he resigns then the seat will almost certainly fall to the SNP.
However, let's not forget that fraud has been committed and thus far the police appear to be ignoring it.
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Brian,
When you post an update to this thread, perhaps you'd ask a researcher to find out just how many £££s his "Golden Goodbye" will be should he decide to wait until the general election, stand as an independent and just happen to fail?
I suspect that the answer will tell us why he's "considering" doing just that as this website's Devine could trigger by-election coyly informs us.
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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It's only taken three months for the BBC to admit that Mr Devine exists.
Can I take it that since Brian Taylor's mentioned Mr Devine in this article my post isn't going to be censored just for mentioning Mr Devine, as several of my posts were last night?
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#4 borderbill
The official BBC Scotland journalistic guidebook is very clear on this:
1. The guddle = "I'm in a mess!"
2. The muddle = "I'm a numptie who didn't realise what I was doing was wrong."
3. The fiddle = "Okay, I'm a thief!"
4. The squabble = "Should I stay or should I go?"
5. The wobble = "I'm toast!"
6. The tumble = "Aaaaarrrrgghhhhhhhhhhh!"
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So Jim Devine will be left on his dodgy shelfs at the next election but instead of apologising for being caught fiddling he says he feels let down by the Labour party!
A better example of the Westminster MPs not living in the same world as the rest of us you couldn't ask for. Devine is in absolute denial that he has done anything wrong but it wasn't just the shelves or the non existent electrical contractor he was also accused of having kept travel expenses that were due to his volunteer driver.
In certain parts of Scotland they used to say that Labour could put up a donkey and still get elected, I used to think that was a joke but it is beginning to look like it was Labours selection policy.
Devine is not just an isolated case, Labour politicians all over are forgetting what they were elected to do. Michael Martin fought tirelessly to stop MPs expenses from being published but didn't raise a finger to save three Schools from closure by Labours City Council in his own constituency.
School closures that will compound the over crowding issues in Glasgow Schools and lower the overall standard of Education in direct opposition to the SNP governments advice on limiting class sizes.
Its not just the MPs that are corrupt it is Westminster itself - time to sack Westminster and make our politicians directly accountable to the Scottish Parliament and people only.
GMK Glasgow
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Brian
Why no comment from yourself on whether Mr Devine in guilty or not.
Surely you're not in his pocket?
And will a man who appears to have submitted false invoices go without and financial compensation? Do turkeys vote for Christmas?
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Jim Devine should put 'our' money where 'his' mouth is and resign to force a by-election. Then he can argue his case in public and not behind Labour's closed doors.
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According to the BBC: "Mr Devine has denied any wrongdoing and has asked the police to investigate."
Since we're all grown ups here can one of the BBC's highly-paid journalistic staff please get on the phone and find out if the police are taking up Mr Devine's invitation to investigate?
The people who pay your wages would really like to know.
Thanks.
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#9 bighullabaloo
7. The fuddle = "Okay, I'm a thief! But I'm also a numptie!"
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@9 b.hull you forgot 7.The stumble ( with cough) = don't ask me about this, can't you see I'm not a well man/woman?
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out here in in "voter land" we want to deselect them all !!!!
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An independent Jim Devine, has the ability to split the Labour vote. His dedicated fifty followers who backed him at his constituency meeting will be prepared to back him once again, otherwise they are left looking like corrupt fools in their neighbourhood.
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#6 greenockboy
"If he resigns then the seat will almost certainly fall to the SNP."
I'd be pretty surprised if they don't win it, either at the general election or at a by-election caused by Devine being miffed at being thrown off RMS Titanic.
In 2005, Robin Cook held the seat against the SNP's second place, but the 14.77% swing needed to take it next time looks achievable, especially as Angela Consttance reduced the swing still needed to 4.55% on 6 August 2005, when NuLab were still relatively popular.
I somehow think that after very careful "consideration", Devine will probably hang on until the general election, and if he does stand as an independent might just guarantee SNP success by splitting the NuLab vote.
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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Thanks for clearing that up for me bighullabaloo.
Whatever the appropriate term is for Mr D, he is well and truly up to his neck in it.
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#14, #15, #19
Thanks to all who wrote.
GrassyKnollington:
Of course, your number seven kicks in a good while after we've had the answer to my post #13...when the Grim Reaper's icy hand is tapping on the shoulder...
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Its an empty threat from Devine. He can't justify these expenses to the electorate of Livingston either as NuLab or an Independent. If he goes now, he loses his golden goodbye and hands a seat and more importantly a Propaganda Victory to the SNP.
Anyway, if Jim does apply for the Chiltern Hundreds or the Manor of Northstead, doesn't the power and timing to move the writ still lie with NuLab ? If he resigned from NuLan first and took his seat as an Independent, could HE move the writ and time the poll at his whim ?
However, Quiet words will have been had in Smoke-filled corridors to keep his gob shut and his head down after his "understandable" rants at the process which has brought him to this point and he'll be found a position on a Quango somewhere.
Here's a Question or two, though whether or not they should go to UK NuLab or their Northern British Branch ?
If Jim Devine is not fit to stand as a Labour Party Candidate at the next election, what makes him fit to remain as the MP for Livingston today ? Will UK NuLab/Northern British NuLab expel him from the party ? Withdraw the whip ? Suspend him from the PLP ?
The usual one raffle ticket for the car at the next SNP conference for any NuLab poster who can answer (and justify) the above.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
I'd like to talk about whether a politicians job is a "career" or a labor of love.
I take the stance that there are to many career head hunters in today's political spectrum and not enough principled dedicated political minded people.
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the fact that every discredited "honorable" and even more "honorable" member is being allowed to consider working their notice or finishing the contract to collect their £30,000 golden good-bye is an absolute disgrace!
if anyone in the real world tried to pull some of the stunts we have finally been told about, we would have been sacked as soon as it was proven,appeared in court and some of us would be in the jail.
also interested that he has lots to say about being let down by the labour party (welcome to the real world Jim) but absolutely nothing about letting down his constituents. plain to see what really matters to him.
Sid
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It would be nice to see Jim Devine doing the honourable thing and immediately resigning his seat. However, I think that he will not and stick it out to the bitter end. I really should have said sweet end because as an MP he will get something to sweeten his departure when he gets kicked out by the voters at the next general election.
I'd be surprised if the police do investigate his disappearing shelves and disappearing electrician. Has he really made a formal complaint to the police or has he just said that to the media knowing that the police will not investigate as there has been no formal complaint.
Come on, Jim, put in a formal complaint to the police so that they can investigate.
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#11 - Firstly, Mr Taylor is not a judge and it is not his job to pronounce judgement on anyone; Secondly, it would be foolhardy in the extreme for any journalist to commit himself in print when he or she is not in full possession of the facts.
As an aside on the police looking into this matter, bear in mind that as Scotland has a separate legal jurisdiction from England, nothing that has previously been said re prosecutions ('looking unlikely', etc) applies. The decision to prosecute is made by the Procurator Fiscal based upon a report given by the police; so Mr Devine may face prosecution in Scotland.
There is a jurisdictional question, and I am not aware of exactly where the receipts were submitted. If it was down in London then it would probably fall under the English jurisdiction, but if they were, for example, posted in Scotland to London then it would be the Scottish jurisdiction.
Personally, I would be in favour of a prosecution (providing the jurisdictional question was resolved) as there seems to be a prima facie case and it is, in my personal opinion, in the public interest.
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Surely if his party say he is unsuitable to stand at the next election then he should not be continuing in the job.
The decent thing would be for him to stand down now. Not wait for a big pay off.
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# 24 derekbarker
'I'd like to talk about whether a politicians job is a "career" or a labor of love.'
No, let's talk about someone who may possibly have fiddled their expenses.
I also notice that you spell 'labor' like our north american cousins; are you American?
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A Political Career Shelved.
Throw the book at him !
Wansanshoo.
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I like the idea of a by election very much.
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You maybe though that Labour in Scotland could not make themselves look any more ridiculous that they are at present, read this article from the Telegraph.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/scotland/5559550/Inquiry-call-over-3000-NHS-staff-in-Scotland-on-long-term-sick-leave.html
Wee Cathy appears to have forgotten who was in government two years ago and thinks that everything was utopia up until May 2007.
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Now having been given the push for a paltry sum of £4,000 do you really think that Jim Devines moral compass will really point in the direction of resignation, when the arrow has defiantly been pointing at to your own self for all those years?
Should he resign, on this matter it surely would only open the floodgates, as the moral compass that is installed at Westminster is spinning so fast that it could power the entire establishment, or even lift the whole lot into the air and dump it in the North Sea.
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#29 gedguy2
No, he's from another planet.
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#24 derek
In Global's case it's a labor of self-love, but in the case of about 400 of them it's a career. Only 90-100 seats ever change hands so if you're in one of the "safe" ones you're there till you retire, and even then you get your Resettlement Grant! What other job gives you £32,000 when you retire plus a fully inflation proofed pension of another £32,000 per year. The poor dears are so terribly over-worked for these measely emoluments ... not. And notice I still haven't mentioned their "expenses". More shelves, vicar?
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Ged
#29
I reckon he could be, apart from everything else he spews out, his grammar is all over the place - maybe its the medication !
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Well gedguy if a politician holds three different jobs and there all political positions.
Would you class that as greedy! impossible to do! career overload! or just politicians at their best.
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I thought Brian was about to jump into the Decleration of Arbroath for a bit when he wrote "It is, in truth" but then this article is about a fraudster. For all you who have no incling, the line in the Decleration of Arboroath reads something like "It is, in truth, not for riches or glory" etc etc.
Brian, for all his pomp and great use of his vocabulary sure can create a veritable feast. It is no wonder the vast majority of people who only bother to respond are Nationalists who either are the only ones who want to respond or have too much time sifting through Brian's words to get the message and then respond. Come on Brian, where is it in the BBC's remit to not knock Labour? What with the Calman commission regurgitating things as they already stand and then giving the people a "voice" to vote in the commissions findings - as if they were not already tainted or biased - to the bare faced theft of public money. I shall stop myself saying the word fraud as the police may investigate this issue at the behest of Devine himself, or so the story goes. Does that mean if he digs a great big hole for himself, he can go to prison? Maybe not, after all, he is an honorable man, "in truth".
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Next up Connarty, who seems to think the following cut and paste reply to all his constituents, no matter their query on the subject, is appropriate:
'I do not know what you think you know apart from what you read in the press, which I would have thought everyone knows will was not always too accurate.
Despite the anger and indignation which your E mail has displayed you will understand that you have gone beyond the bounds of acceptable legal behaviour in making your allegations, particularly as you have done so in the name of your company, of which I unfortunately I have never heard.
I ask that you withdraw your outrageous and untrue statements by return.
To assist you in your consideration, I will relate the same tale I told to the journalist who claims his sub editors distorted his
final submitted text. When asking me whether I thought the
electronic goods bought by my flat - sharing colleague which I had claimed through my living in London allowance were extravagant, I avoided making a judgement of others by relaying the story told to me by Angus Robertson MP who was recently being interviewed and asked to explain why he had purchased a mechanical corkscrew at £20. The interviewer produced a corkscrew which he claimed to have bought for a few pounds in a multiple store. Angus retorted that Some people would not be satisfied unless MPs bought everything from the 99p store. The rest is journalistic history and journalistic licence to ensnare the gullible and thrill the easily excited.
The sum total of what you call toys that I have bought and claimed from my allowances since 2004, through to 2009 consists of:-
One 17 flat screen TV with freeview box (bought Feb 2006)
One Pure DAB Evoke 3 radio (bought 2007)
My Pioneer mini stereo system and Mission speakers are at least 10 years old.
I am too busy working on the many issues that face my constituents, Scottish and UK businesses and society to have much time for toys.
These issues include the campaign for musical auditory copyright extension at EU level, which I would have thought a super multi logoed individual like you would have known about. Fran Nervkla of PPL can fill you in.
I look forward to your reply, as does my lawyer.
Michael Connarty MP'
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# 37 derekbarker
You are still avoiding the question. Let me put it more clearly for you.
1: Do you believe that the Labour party was correct in deselecting Jim Devine for his expenses fiasco?
2: Are you an American?
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#40 gedguy2
1. No
2.Yes, he's George W Bush,hence the answer to question one.
Wansanshoo.
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Maybe I'm missing something - but at times I think I'm the only sane man in the asylum... Let me state up front I've no great love for Labour in the Livingston area, having voted against Devine and Muldoon (as MSP) in the last three elections.
We're talking about a guy who's crime appears to have been to have inadvertantly used a contractor who has defrauded the taxman and also to have been billed by the guy who owns the storage room he uses for putting up shelves?
Is there something else I've missed?
An honest question for which I'm truly trying to find out an answer.
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#37 Derek's two stops from Barking.
Only someone as smart as yourself assisted by Alex Salmond could handle such a workload.
Wansanshoo.
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dubbieside #32 - she also forgets that every health board in Scotland is stuffed full of labour placemen /woman .so she could save us a fortune by simply asking them what the hell they are playing at ,as if she doesn't already know the answer!
a culture of fear ,threat and bullying is rife in the health boards and as with almost everything else Labour had more than 10 years to do something about it, but as usual they chose to ignore it in fact actively encouraged it.
dump quota's and all the other things that health boards deem to be more important than patient care NOW!!!
Sid
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#43
So why has the SNP duped the people again with their SFT scheme Wansanshoo, when it clearly is PFI in another name?.
Do you consider it fraud to dupe the electorate?.
Yes/No
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#42, TheRedBeard, isn't the issue that the shelving has never been identified? Or maybe that bit of news never reached me here in North Carolina.
There is one thing that bothers me about the false VAT number. There are two types of people as far as VAT is concerned - those who know the formula to work out if a VAT number is false and those who do not. I think it is safe to assume that most MPs do not know (or care about) the formula. So, at what point did Jim Devine realise that the VAT number was false, how did he realise it and, armed with that knowledge, when did he contact HMRC to report it?
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Nice of the BBC to contrast Labour's alleged school building programme when they were in power in the item on the announcement by the SNP of the school building programme.
I look forward to Labour's past record being broadcast by the BBC in every item from now on.
I also look forward to a peoper scrutiny of the PFI shambles that Labour presided over.
One last thing, the original not for profit bonds that would have provided Scotland with an exptionally efficient value for money funding system was deemed illegal. If Unionists are squealing about the number of building projects perhaps they might like to ponder that independence would remove the shackles from a not for profit futures trust.
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Looks like Pravda North newsnight Scotland branch have surpassed even their usual standards of reporting.
The letter from the junior doctors in Livingston is how many months old?
At the end of the report they said that Lothian Health Board had contacted the doctors concerned and their concerns have been addressed.
Now someone far more cynical than me might think that the BBC had been sitting on this letter for some time hoping to use it to counter the Devine story.
Our totally impartial, and even handed BBC would not do something like that surely?
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Interesting on the Newsnight that even Labour MSP know that they have no chance of winning the 2011 election.
The Labour education spokeswoman (do not know her name) said to Fiona Hyslop "after the 2011 election if pupils are not in these new schools will you resign as education minister"
If you ever wondered why Gray was elected leader, there is a clue here.
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So the SNP will build 12 new schools with not for profit finance then build the other 46 through PFI.
The traits are showing?.
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A few people asking whether legal action is an option.
Well, after what happened today, there is not point in asking, since nothing will be done.
I've reworded it since the moderators found my earlier post potentially defamatory. This version is legally correct and what happened in a court of law today.
Short version, and I know the full facts. An innocent person got stabbed with kitchen scissors in the back of then neck, missing his jugular by millimetres and nearly paralysed, has been out of work for 8 weeks. The convicted person today had his charge reduced from attempted murder to serious assault, and has been sentenced to 30 months. The victim has been advised to move out of the area before the convict is released.
And people expect the Scottish Justice system to prosecute over these shelves?
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Let's get it right here folks, Devine hasn't been deselected because he got caught fiddling expenses of a paltry £4,000. He has been deselected because of something in his make up, be it vanity / arrogance / stubbornmess / stupidty. All he had to do was admit a simple mistake.
Submitted in error, an oversight on my part due to my hectic schedule, obviously I will repay or other such phrases we have heard so often over the last few weeks. But no, he just couldn't admit he wasn't as smart as he obviously thinks he is.
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One thing that doesn't seem to surface in all this sorry story is the actual cost of having this man as an MP for my area. I believe with Salary, benefits and expenses he may have cost the taxpayer nearly a quarter of a million pounds per annum. Did we get value for money? No! Did he actually achieve anything ? No! All we get for our money is to be cheated and lied to.
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#45 Do you consider it fraud to dupe the electorate?.
I would say yes but that PFI is not defrauding anyone, on a legal basis, as there is never any security written into a PFI contract. The reason they are not used down south. PFI is a blank cheque for the boys to do as they will. However, this is nothing new. The building trade has taken advantage of government at every opportunity. It appears that Labour do not realise, or concede, this fact. The reality of PPP/PFI is that a builder can charge at excess costs. Added to the quango of managers who actually control the PFI building while it is being rented out over a 25 year contract, and costs and bitterness spiral, often out of control. A contract, however, is a contract once signed and the total cost to the tax payer for PFI year on year is rediculous. No matter how PFI is wrapped up, the lax contractual control is a litigators dream. Charging at over £100 ph, a litigator will take upto 2 years to sift through the contract, pouring over every contradiction. The quangos in charge of said non-public buildings often have a sore head running the place and are often bitter minded individuals. School teachers scorned for putting school work on walls is not a thing of the past, I will add!
As to the Scottish judicial system, just like everything else in Scotland, it has been dumbed down to appease the narrow minded, and often autistic, individuals who cannot reason the error. I think, as rediculous and draconian as it sounds, that some people utterly deserve the birch. I think maybe their mums should smack their hin' en'.
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Working class Unison members will be pleased to learn that years of financing the capitalist "Labour" Party has produced a politician such as the Right Honourable Jim Devine MP. How many other Unison careerists are currently working their way up the union hierarchy with the view to becoming wealthy careerist "Labour" politicians?
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"Mr Jim Devine is said to be considering his future" -
As far as I am aware no Labour MP has departed the Gravy Train before it reached its final destination, and I cannot see Jimmy being any different.
He has not only let himself down, but also his supporters and the BBC.
He has abused their franchisement and trust, and for that there should be no forgiveness.
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It has fascinated me how non-elected people can become members of parliament, do so much for themselves yet so little for their paying members. A union stops giving Labour money and half the population gasps in horror. I see unions as a legal arm for the individual worker but when they pretend to argue for the mass, then I have to scowl and disagree.
Unisons news does immediately signal a major policy shift for Labour, as has happened in Scotland already. Rather than give the people a voice, Labour will take it away and tell the people what they will get and how to live the individual life as a member of the masses.
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# 50 derekbarker
Again you run away when asked a straight question. Is this all you are capable of doing? Now you are clutching at straws trying to throw this PFI rubbish at us. You are like the little boy in the playground who hits someone and quickly runs away in case they get hit back. You haven't got the guts to stand and fight your corner.
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Jim Devine has been caught with his pants down. So what? M.P.'s of the so-called main party are all culpable to a greater or lesser extent. Surely there cannot ever have been a bunch so shallow, irrelevant and self-serving? And I include Holyrood in that!
The sad thing about Devine is that at least he raised some substantial issues. e.g. Farepak, the pre-payment and the loan shark organisations that rip off those in greatest need. Perhaps he can regain (?) some credibility by staying on and pursuing his private members' Bill proposal for a regulatory framework and interest rate restraints for that unregulated industry?
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#58 gedguy
It's not some spin story nor rubbish, the secretary of education said that the other 46 school buildings would be financed by private cash.
Gedguy why do you continue with your polo-mint politics, polished around the rim with no substance in the middle.
I've no problems with a referendum nor it's outcome, Have you?.
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Flipping Kitty Ussher resigned from her new post as Labour Treasury Minister!
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/mps-expenses/5562772/Kitty-Ussher-resigns-from-Government-over-17000-tax-dodge-MPs-expenses.html
Should be interesting day tomorrow when the MP's expenses are published!
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"Mr Jim Devine is said to be considering his future" -"
Looks like he's moved on to step 4: "the squabble" (see my #9 for details).
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It would have been enlightening to have an SNP spokesperson on Newsnight Scotland in the discussion on broadcasting issues in Scotland. Instead we got a Labour MP who is supporting the BBC's stance against top slicing of the licence fee (which is not his party's policy) and a Tory who is also against top slicing. That can hardly be called a balanced and representative discussion. More a case of manipulation again by Gordon Brewer.
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I have just finished watching Newsnight Scotland Highlights 16thJune:Devine barred from Election on the BBC Scotland Politics main page.
The clip starts with Devine showing a camera crew round his London 'Flat'and pointing out the electrical work supposedly carried out.
59 seconds into the clip, there is a shot of the 'new' consumer unit (fuse box). From this one shot I can tell you that either no re-wiring work has been carried out, or if work has been done, it wasn't by an electrical company.
The consumer unit itself is an old BS5486 box dating back at least 15 years. There are 4 obsolete BS3871 push in MCB's dating back at least 10 years (2 x 5A and 2 x 30A).
More importantly however, is what is not there -
1. There is a missing blanking plate on the LHS of the consumer unit exposing the live busbar - a Code 1 electrical danger.
2. There is no RCD protection for Electrical Safety on any circuit - a key safety feature upgrade which is required when any new wiring work has been carried out.
3. The Consumer Unit does not comply to BS7671:2008 (17th Edition Wiring Regulations) and does not even comply to to the earlier BS7671:2001 amended to 2004 (16th Edition Wiring Regulations)
4. There is absolutely no circuit labelling, or Warning/Information Labels.
In fact if any work has been carried out, from an electrical point of view, the standard is as good as the shelving featured just seconds later in the report.
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"It wisnae me!"
"Ah wis stitched up / Hung oot tae dry!"
"A big, disabled tax evader did it, hobbled away, then snuffed it."
Jim Devine is evidently just too innocent to be a Labour MP!!
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Actually I feel sorry for Devine in a way. Clearly he had been told that it was how things were done in London - to pad out your expenses since no one would check, and the details would never be published.
That sort of corrupt practice has been going on with Scottish MPs since the Union started (though in a different form in those early days).
As an Imperial Parliament following the doctrine of Parliamentary Sovereignty such practises were inevitable. If supporters of the UK Union were able to argue for fundamental constitutional change which addressed the democratic deficit in all parts of the UK, then they might be able to suggest a reformed UK that some Scots would find worth supporting.
Not any sign of that happeningthough.
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Sid
#44
There is a word to describe this that for some reason no one has used yet.
Mafia
Scum
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Go on Jim, let's have a by-election so we can see some 'Devine Retribution'
Sorry, couldn't resist that one ;-)
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Re building new schools: If the last labour administration had actually maintained the schoolsin their charge there would be no need for the current administration to build so many new ones. The (state) schools I went to (both primary and secondary) were over 100 years old - my parents had even attended them. My children (all with honors university degrees) all went to (state) schools which were over 100 years old. Children in my town are still being taught in a school which is around 120 years old. Education is not improved with new schools - it is the teaching which matters, however maintaining the fabric of a building stops accidents.
The (100 year +) secondary school which I attended was knocked down and replaced with a brand new school - that one only lasted about 35 years before it was knocked down - virtually no maintenance had been carried our by our wonderful Labour Administration during that time. What a total waste of money.
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#64 Angusblogg
"In fact if any work has been carried out, from an electrical point of view, the standard is as good as the shelving featured just seconds later in the report."
Thanks for that - I'm no electrician but I can certainly see that's not exactly state of the art for 2007. You can now see the "rogue" invoice (minus the VAT#, names and addresses) on p19 of the 2007-08 Additional Cost Allowance PDF downloadable from UK parliament's Allowances by MP - Jim Devine.
What's absolutely clear is the debt we all owe to the whistleblower who got this stuff to the Telegraph including the missing details, without which none of this stuff would have been obvious.
Still some tweaking needed on the FOI side, methinks.
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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# 60 derekbarker
Again you run away without answering the questions put to you. I'm not going to engage in a discussion with someone who blatantly refuses to answer any questions put to them. Instead, you run away from the question by trying, desperately, to stick another question in place of an answer. You should have been an MP, you have the knack for avoiding questions but not the subtlety of one who has been at the game for years.
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#70 Coineach -
"Education is not improved with new schools - it is the teaching which matters."
Absolutely true. However; it's worth pointing out, isn't it, that improving our school estate does more than prevent accidents.
Our understanding of how schools interact with their buildings has moved on a little since Edwardian times. 100 year+ buildings tend to be less efficient, available room sizes/uses are less flexible, buildings are often more expensive to heat, make poor use of natural light and tend to have 100 year old sanitation/drainage provision which comes with its own problems.
And then there are modern demands for ICT etc. Cabling an Edwardian building and installing floorpoints and outlets for electronic whiteboards/PCs etc. can be a nightmare.
New schools don't mean better teachers but they should mean better equipped teachers which, to my mind, is the point.
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# 64 Angusblogg
He was a fool to show the meter. He might have received a bit of sympathy for the rest of the, so called, wiring installation (as if) but the meter is a dead give away. I challenge any labour electrician to come on this blog and defend him.
He deserves everything that he gets.
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If Devine has courage of his convictions he will resign after been force to 'walk the "short" plank' and re-stand as an independent. This would be the most democratic and legitimate course to take, which makes it unlikely.
If he does though, he gets his chance, the public gets their say, and the Labour vote gets split - even better (or should that be bitter ;) ).
If he lingers on it is a complete affront on many levels.
If he lingers on there is a small chance the law might even pull their finger out and pull him in for questioning at some point sooner or later, forcing an even more ignoble resignation.
If he lingers on he will (hopefully) be a loose cannon and try to get some kind of revenge on his former colleagues. Could be interesting.
What next for New British Labour?
We have the news in the Herald that the next Glasgow bi election will be at the end of August. If Devine resigns it may be 2 on the same day.
In any case my prediction is that Brown/Labour will lose, despite a surge in postal votes. (Why aren't they banned until the system is reformed anyway?)
There will then be strong calls for him to resign.
This will be the last straw and the excuse to elect a new New Labour leader. So after some delay Brown will announce he is stepping down for the good of the party - not the UK.
Nota Bene: damage control - New New Labour leader will absolutely not be of Scottish descent).
New Leader forced to name a date for the election but late enough by the time it all draws out to set a date for an election in Q2 2010.
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Anyone know if Lothian's finest will take up Mr Devine's invitation?
Given the Scottish Police Force's track record on Wendy, Tavish, Marshall, Mundell, Gordon, Purcell, McConnell, Marshall's daughter, Dayel et al's breeches of PPER, IRS, VAT, Accountancy Law and all the other fiscal regulations, not to mention criminal law, that us mere mortals must conform to - he'll think himself quite safe!
"Sic a parcel o' rogues in a nation!"
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#71 Brownedov
Thanks for that Brownedov - I have downloaded the 'rogue' invoice.
It is a 'con', either
a) To allow Mr Devine to claim back money for work not done.
or,
b) To allow a bogus contractor to 'con' money out of Mr Devine (and hence also the taxpayer)
How can I tell its a fake?.....easy
Para 2 of the invoice "Rewire completely, and supply and fit replacement consumer unit, with RCD breakers."
As per my #64, the consumer unit is a BS5486 unit and is at least 10-15 years old. AND there are no RCD breakers fitted (the breakers fitted are, in the main, obsolete BS3871 MCB's).
Because no RCD's have been fitted the installation does NOT comply to IEE Regulations, and IF work was carried out, it is in breach of Part P of the Building Regulations and is, in itself, a criminal offence for both the contractor AND the person ordering the work.
The police should certainly be investigating somebody here!
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#53 akaElectronicwizard
Why don't you knock up a few posters, or fliers featuring this question and post them on bus shelters and other suitable locations where they will be visible. It might assist local constituents in forming coherent thoughts.
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Go on Mr Devine ! Force a by election!
We're all behind you!
P.S I watched with interest , the BBC defending its stance on Newsnight Scotland.
It seems strange that anyone should even begin to believe that the BBC would investigate its usage of 3.6 billion pounds of tax payers money in an impartial manner.
Even more interesting was the lack of balance shown by the choice guests.
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Perhaps all this explains Devines voting patterns:
ESPECIALLY
# Has never voted on a transparent Parliament. -- OOPS
# Voted very strongly for introducing a smoking ban. -- Not surprising with all that faulty wiring. Think of the fire hazard!
# Voted very strongly for introducing ID cards.
# Voted very strongly for Labour's anti-terrorism laws.
# Voted very strongly against an investigation into the Iraq war.
So his politics = Big brother style scrutiny of public. Above scrutiny for him/MPs.
Very New Labour.
# Voted very strongly against replacing Trident. Well at least thats something.
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#77 Angusblogg
"Thanks for that Brownedov - I have downloaded the 'rogue' invoice ...
How can I tell its a fake?.....easy ..."
You're welcome.
Given that the "questionable" activity happened in London, and with your obvious knowledge of these matters as well as the video and other evidence now available, you could consider reporting your findings on the Met's Online Crime Reporting website.
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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The Scottish branch of the British state broadcaster has upped it's anti independence propaganda of late.
Too many axamples to mention and I'm particularly busy at the moment working on 'interesting' software.
However the latest pushing of some lone lunatic as a kind of 'Tartan Terrorist' (BBC's own headline words) is indicative of the shift in the BBC's reporting to one where it is even more Unionist in nature.
To have a large picture of Alex Salmond beneath such a headline is brazen.
This London controlled news outlet should be disbanded forthwith along with it's career lackey's. It serves practically no one in Scottish society and that includes football loving couch potatoes.
Sport, drama and news output are abysmal.
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#82 Greenockboy
As ever, your conspiracy comments are totally bizarre!!
The truth is out there ;-D
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.... I should add that the 'you're too poor' argument has been dusted down again.
How corrupt and rotten is this union that they are now having to produce propaganda in order to counter a report that they themselves originally dreamt up as propaganda against Scottish independence.
Oh, the Scotland(sic) Office claim that an independent Scotland would have been in surplus in only 9 years out of the last 27. This is no doubt backed up through a comparison with Norway - who is on it's knees, isn't it?
It fails to mention that the UK was in surplus for only six of those years.
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Greenockboy
The propaganda is stepping up yet again. Murphy has weighed in with a 20 billion shortfall in Scotlands spending even when "all north sea oil revenue is included"
Strange how Norway has managed to stay afloat over the same period. They must have got more money for their oil than we did?
Interesting breakdown of the oil figures on the following blog.
http://advancedmediawatch.blogspot.com/2009/06/ever-notice-when-snp-ride-high-in-polls.html
Samonella
Now that we cannot stop laughing at reluctant, are you going to post as Samonella for a while?
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Brown's latest U turn
Salmondella, like other Unionists, makes the mistake of believing the partisan reporting by the BBC is a conspiracy.
It isn't, it is far too brazen for that, it is very much in the open that the BBC and other Scottish media suppress certain stories and promote others in line with a very clear Unionist agenda.
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no 82 - do what I do. Don't pay your television tax. I haven't for a decade now.
I have often wondered why the SNP govt don't just announce that TV licence evaders living in Scotland will not be prosecuted (criminal justice being devolved) until such time as we get fair and balanced reportage and proper national news....anyone know whether this has ever been mooted?
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Meanwhile over at the Times:
"Now you might argue, and some do, that this was not a pro-SNP vote but an anti-Labour one, an expression of disgust at the expenses scandal, the recession and the London governments compulsion to self-harm in response to all these pressures. But that doesnt explain why the SNP did quite so well. Its share of the popular vote was 29.1%, more than the Conservatives in England, who managed 27.7%. The swing from Labour to the SNP in Scotland was 8%, double the UK-wide swing to the Tories from Labour."
This wouldn't be the real basis of Jim Devine's coshing could it? Let's look hard on a guy who will not be in Parliament after 2010 anyway, as he's going to loose his seat to the SNP; meanwhile 'Spud' Murphy continues to line up the deckchairs on the Union Titanic telling us Scot's we are too wee, too poor, etc. (forgetting to add that's mainly because of Labour's profligacy, self ingratiation and pochling)?
A case of casting a Labour sprat to catch an SNP mackerel.
PS: Surely Devine's improper flat wiring should be reported to the HSE, the Local Trading Standards and Devine's Power supplier to his flat. They can all enter the flat without a warrant (unlike Mr Fuzz)and have powers to cut off supply until all remedial work is done to meet the required standard. His flat insurers will not be best pleased either as he is clearly in breech of any property or household insurance requirements for correct and certificated maintenance of his power supply.
More than one way to skin this cat!
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84... greenockboy
http://www.esrcsocietytoday.ac.uk/ESRCInfoCentre/PO/releases/2005/april/index2.aspx#note1
Having read the above I am inclined to think the financial interests
of Scotland would be best served by staying within the United Kingdom.
The costs of providing pensions in the future for the UK as a nation is worrying but for an independent Scotland the costs might not be supportable at all.
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#85 Dubious
"Strange how Norway"..... is the only wee country you lot gibber on aboot these days. The straws you clutch get smaller and smaller. FEARDOM
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OK, nearing the end of my 'break' but just had a quick look at 'Honest' Jim Murphy's expenses and noticed a little item paid to a company called Door To Door.
On the face of it (I hadn't much time to look further) this looks like leaflets as there is an itemised count against a cost per item.
Go here to find your MP's expenses
Click on the 'incidental expenses 2006 2007' and scroll to page 13 of the PDF. Over 37000 items at 4.9p each have been delivered around Nov 2006.
Could all be above board, but well worth a look seeing as it's Jim.
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#89.
Pensions in the United Kingdom are unsustainable overall. In Scotland, yes, pensions are unsustainable even as an independent country.
I will also point out that the Government insists upon saving for our pension, I am expected and expect myself that by the time I am 65 state pensions will be impossible because of the cost involved. The reality is that in the union or as an independent nation our ability to ensure reasonable level of pensions are that, eventually there will be none.
In order to sustain pensions we have to either encourage more births or encourage immigration. In Scotland I believe we can assume that the Government and Parliament will ensure that appropiate actions are taken to ensure the best for the people of Scotland.
But, I would expect that even apart of the United Kingdom that pensions will become impossible and we will soon see them stopped altogether (or the age of retirement raised).
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I would caution that no-one here should, in the context of BBC unionist bias, advocate non-payment of the television tax nor speculate whether the SNP government would be entitled to decide not to prosecute tv licence evaders - your comments will be ruled offside by the moderator.
CC
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salmondella re 91
That well thought out, intelligent reply, could have been written by reluctant/Derek/am2 and probably was.
Ok other countries. Has Ireland rushed to rejoin the union? No and it never will it is a grown up country which will get bigger in the next ten years when the island of Ireland is united. That will cheer you up no doubt.
Has Iceland joined the UK yet. Why not? I thought that smaller countries needed big successful countries like England to run their affairs for them.
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I never thought the day would come when I'd say this, but when independence comes (as come it will, for a' that), I want the BBC in Scotland to be closed down and the license fee abolished. Enough is enough of this drivel, I've had enough. I pay my license fee and all I get is partisan drivel of a quality that would embarrass some of the red-tops.
Brian, have you ever actually sat down and watched Reporting Scotland or Newsnight Scotland with impartial eyes? Have you ever browsed the BBC website in similar vein? Do you [i] really [/i] want to be a part of this organisation?
Politicians have been found out biting the hand that feeds them. Broadcasters ought to learn not to do the same.
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The BBC's remit is to be politically non-partisan (apparently). So why did Glenn Campbell, on introducing FMQ's today, mention Alex Salmond and the release of the expenses info in the same breath? It's so blatant it is amost unbelievable!
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hamish42 re 97
That is the second week in a row that something that was not in FMQ was quoted on the ultra impartial BBC.
This week Campbell on AS expenses, last week Macleod of The Times mentioned what Goldie was not allowed to ask, yes AS expenses.
How disappointed the BBC must be that AS did not claim for dodgy rewiring, shelves etc.
Good to see the panic Murphy is in. First we have a deficit of 20 billion pounds that the English taxpayer kindly pays to us, and now the BNP is a real threat in Scotland.
There is an interesting analysis that if we had the 13 seats in Europe that we would have as an independent country, the BNP still would not have won a seat in Scotland at the last Euro election. Labour spinning so much, they are making themselves dizzy.
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Re 97, I dont like to think of the BBC being biased but I was taken aback by the schoolboy/schoolgirl nonsense between Jackie and Brian the other night on Reporting Scotland re the FM's offer to have a second question on the referendum re Calman, it come over loud and clear that they both see the FM as a joke. I was extremely disappointed by their actions and can see why so many people regularly complain on these blogs on the way in which the BBC treat the current Scottish Government.
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#98Dubious
Say sonny! 20Bn short-fall in an Independent Scotland, well! you don't say Dubby, that's quite frightening, any ideas how we can just get on with devolution.
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Very significant, I think, that Calman did not recommend that broadcasting be devolved.....the bias of the BBC is one of Westminster's last lines of defence.
It's about time the SNP took a harder line on the media, starting with the appointment of a pro-nat board member of the BBC trust (per Calman). For the commercial/print sector, there's plenty Scottish government-funded advertising to use as a bargaining chip...
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#100 derek,
Derek, tell me straight, 'mano-a-mano'
Do you actually believe that guff?
Yes / No?
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#95 Dubbie
and that "well thought out, intelligent reply, could have been written by".....Adrian McMole aged 13 and three quarters ;-D
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#102
If you accept the 10Bn Calman report, the short-fall in the Scottish budget is closer to 25Bn.
So you have a 25Bn gap to fill with oil-revenue, corporation tax and so on?
Fill the gap! remember it's not a game?.
Plus! surely you must prove Independence to be more substantial or else what's the point?.
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I just watched FMQ and was astounded to see that when Western Isles MSP Alasdair Alan stood up to ask a question on behalf of his constituents in Uist where around 170 jobs are to go with the closure of the Qinetiq Rocket Range the Labour MSP's HECKLED him so badly that they were told off by the First Minister.
It was really quite extraordinary. He was asking on behalf of worried people in a fragile rural community ( the scale of the job losses apparently equivalent to the loss of 7000 jobs in Glasgow overnight) and the Labourites heckled him. What on earth was that about?
Even more farcically the BBC in Scotland seem to have sidelined the issue completely and are focusing all their angst on the loss of the MOD presence on, wait for it, St Kilda.
No soon to be redundant voters angry and frightened by this decision or popular SNP MSP's fighting on their behalf to be found perching on the cliffs out there.
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Derek:
#100.
"Say sonny! 20Bn short-fall in an Independent Scotland, well! you don't say Dubby, that's quite frightening, any ideas how we can just get on with devolution."
I dare say that you have not done your cause much good. Are you admitting that whilst apart of the political union, Scotland has been drowning in a large short fall since the oil discovery? If this is the case. Then what's the economic argument for remaining apart of the United Kingdom? It is blackmail really, stay or you will fail as a country!
However are you suggesting that Scotland, as an independent country, would still be drowning in a short fall since the discovery of oil? Just so I understand where you are coming from. Is this based on following the same spending plan as the United Kingdom? At the moment of time the United Kingdom is bankrupt. How can we be told by this London Government that we would fail as an independent country, especially when their own finances are insane.
Also...
Do you find it acceptable that Scotland was profitable for 9 out of 27 years? Is the politcal union not suppose to bring economic benefits? It's clearly not benefiting Scotland.
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Has anyone listened to the reception Alasdair Allan MSP, received during FMQs? Apparently some Labour MSPs didn't approve of him asking the First Minister about job cuts on the Western Isles as a result of MOD cuts.
Labour members disapproving of a fellow MSP raising concerns about peoples jobs and livelyhoods? What goes on in these peoples heads.
Brian, you and your fellow journalists should be taking them to task on this. Ask them a simple series of questions on why they interrupted the local MSP from puting forward a reasonable point in parliament.
A disgrace, but I suppose it shows exactly how removed Labour is from it's traditional values, i.e. people, jobs and communities. I would dearly love to know who those MSPs are. Brian, can you find out, please or can someone on this blog assist me in finding out who they are?
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There was me thinking I was replying to Samonella, you really are getting mixed up Derek.
You should keep to just one of your identities or you will get refused.
Just for your info Derek/reluctant/samonella/am2 these were the Westminster Labour government figures. We all know how accurate their figures are. Never mind you, Gray and Murphy are some of the few people in Scotland to believe them.
By the way, you usually save the, sonny, boy, lad or child intelligent comments when you post as reluctant, you really are slipping.
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salmondella re 103
There is really no answer to such wit and intelligence.
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Today is an exam day for secondary-school pupils in France, and the subject on which baccalaureat-level (Highers-level roughly) pupils are being tested is philosophy, which is taught in secondary schools there with a view to inculcating methodical thinking in so far as possible in as many citizens of the republic as possible (as well as consolidating the influence of philosophers in public affairs).
Exam candidates are being asked to write on, among others, the subject of a text by Tocqueville (Democracy in America) which seems to have a bearing on the question of public respect for as well as support for political representatives. I thought you might like to have a stab at dealing with it - methodically and rationally, of course, as distinct from what Derek and certain other anglo-unionists tend to do - with reference to the shelving question and the UK unparliamentary-expenses issue more widely. So here is part of the text:
"One can win the favour of a people with some impressive action or another; but, to win the affection and respect of the population around you, you need a long succession of minor services, routine good deeds and a constant habit of benevolence and selflessness."
Comment on the above text, showing how it demonstrates the folly of ripping off your constitutuents by stealing from the public purse when you are supposed to be serving their interests and indicating if it sheds any light on the question of the Labour Party's recent electoral troubles and the Scottish National Party's increasing popularity after more than two years in office as the government of Scotland.
You have an hour to complete your answer and, as BT might say, please do not try to write on both sides of the paper at the same time, Derek.
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More nonsense from derekbarker.
The UK's "shortfall" is in a normal year around 16 times that of Scotland's on a per capita basis. All modern states run on a deficit.
As I said before - we've been through all this five years and more ago and only lamebrains now swallow this guff. It is of course aimed exactly at these lamebrains who make up a substantial proportion of the diminishing Labour and unionist support.
It is pretty pathetic that his is all they can come up with and even more pathetic to see political figures who know very well this line is nonsense actually using it.
The more that sensible Scots understand that the attempeted deceptions on them are an insult to their intelligence the quicker they will walk away from this union which the unionists tell them has had the useful effect of reducing us to beggar status.
And they wonder why we think they are dishonest?
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Re my 105. The figure is actually 120 jobs although the local HIE agency reckon the knock on effect of the redundancies may double that number.
It's around 1 in 6 of the workforce.
Expect Glen is on a helicopter to St kilda as we speak (wearing his red bobble hat) to ask the local cormorants to confirm that Iain Gray is an all round great guy.
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# 110 Interesting post FFP
As I believe that the electorate has been in part to blame for all the troughing by being so disengaged from politics for the past 10 years I have been considering ways in which people could be encouraged to vote.
Would the introduction of political philosophy at secondary level improve things rather than making voting compulsory or offering a free lottery ticket to each participant for example?
What is the average turnout in france for local national elections FFP?
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The signs that the current constitution is breaking up is apparent by the frustration and anger that is evident when the public are allowed access to mass media forums.
Radio phone in's and this blog are indicative of the strength of feeling that exists in Scotland on constitutional issues.
The other thing that is apparent, and is growing, is the contempt that our journalists are held in. I am sure that this is a recent phenomena and does not augur well for the continuation of both the BBC and the Union.
There is a growing resentment amongst the public towards the BBC. In England it is taking the form of criticism of the salaries of some high earners whilst in Scotland the news output is now regularly pilloried.
As the BBC in Scotland retreats into it's Unionist shell it alienates the Scottish electorate more and more. People are not as stupid as the BBC seem to think, and the actions of Taylor, Bird, Campbell et al are leading to anger.
Unionists make the mistake of believing that people like myself are somehow fundamental nationalists who have been ever thus. For what it's worth I was for many years a fierce advocate of Labour, the SNP weren't even on my radar.
Now however, having moved into the independence camp and abandoned Labour I am having my convictions consolidated daily by institutions like the BBC. I also believe that there are thousands like me, perhaps tens of thousands.
I'm of the opinion that more and more people are beginning to identify the BBC in Scotland as merely being a defender of the Union and not as an informer of the people. These so called journalists we in Scotland are compelled to pay for are no better than the state broadcasters of the old Soviet days.
Perhaps a 'meet the public' tour, where Glenn, Brian, Gordon and the rest can face their paymasters (us) and answer directly our criticisms might be the reality check these people need. The BBC provides a nice little comfort blanket for them at the moment, but a cold chill awaits when the voters/viewers frustration reaches critical mass - and history tells us that it will.
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Further snippet from the Times in answer to Murphy's a vote for the SNP will let the BNP in:
"In Scotland, we seemed to be reading from a different script. Labour was the loser, as elsewhere, then the similarity ended. The British National Partys share of the vote, at 2.5%, was a fraction of its UK showing of 6.2%. UKIP, which gained 11 seats in England and its first in Wales, might as well have been fighting to preserve the sovereignty of Ruritania for all the attention it received north of Berwick."
So where is the threat? Does Murphy see a sudden BNP surge in Don Martini's seat in Glasgow or the Devine seat of Livingstone?
Nice to hear the Nu Labour numpties cheering on the next round of clearances in a seat they have no hope of winning - but that could not be the reason that the range is being closed, surely? So Nu Labour are happy these jobs will be going to the Racall range in Brittany instead as that is the only other range with the same capability in the EU?
It is like them setting out to close the Dundrennan Range, near Kirkcudbright, where they had £2 million pounds of sophisticated tank target ripped out only to find they now have no where to calibrate tank guns whilst on the move.
Nu Labour - pah!
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#113 Aikenheed
Am just disengaging for an engagement in the real world, actually, but will get back to you when I can.
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#110
Frankly, Frank your empty pocket full of rye and self praise is off track and almost certainly an unreliable source of spontaneous flattery.
La Sorbonne with all it's theology and definitions hardly ever equates to a singular narrow minded position, like many nationalists often do.
Francophone and the expensive pie- man are hardy squeaky clean now! are they Frank!
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French voter-participation levels:
Municipal elections, year 2001: about 69 per cent at the second round of voting.
Regional elections, year 2004: about 65 per cent.
National Assembly elections, year 2007: about 60 per cent.
Presidential elections, year 2007: just over 80 per cent.
Euro-elections, year 2009: about 43 per cent.
These figures are not precise, just off the top of my head. Sorry I can't stay to discuss them right now.
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#117 Derek
Sorry, I haven't got time to translate your post into English. I must love you and leave you. Have a nice evening.
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#118 frank-francophone
Now isn't that a dainty dish to sit before the nats.
Exquisite loyalty or just brain freeze?.
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#120 Derek
#118 is just a response to a query from Aikenheed at #113. If you're not interested or don't understand it, look the other way. Bye now.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
BBC in Scotland at it again:
Jim Murphy's claim for Christmas cards was also mentioned along with Salmond's legal bill when he was part of a number of MP's wjho sought to hold Tony Blair to account over the Iraq scandal.
First Minister Alex Salmond has defended a 14,100 pounds legal fee claim
Salmond actually claimed 790 pounds for the legal advice, not 14,100 pounds. One of the better uses for taxpayers money I would have thought.
I won't hold my breath for the headline on Murphy's Christmas cards (around 300 pounds I believe).
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#112 grassy knollington- I was going to suggest that a quick whip round might influence who the pilot brought back from St Kilda and who he left behind! but i could not bring myself to inflict any of them on the bird population .
the labour MSP's behaviour in Parliament this afternoon shows them as the ignorant rabble most decent Scot's now see them as.
if it is not about the "labour heartlands " ,which are reducing by the week, these idiots couldn't care less . all it takes is for one of these Muppet's to start and they all join in like the no brain sheep that they are, which then shows how crap the shepherd is!
Gray wants to be first minister but he can't even control his own idiots.
Sid
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The fact is that 120-170 jobs means quite a lot to rural communities, but its no surprise that the Brits will re-locate their test ranges, they know we are offski and have given us a big two fingers to their future plans (as we already know in general).
Beware Wales, N. Ireland, Cornwall !
I actually believe that Trident is a dead duck, money, call me dave, Obama etc - but they still need somewhere to dump their poisonous rubbish somewhere. We need to tread carefully here !
However if we brought our service personnel back from from Colchester? Germany? and god knows where else, illegal wars? we could stimulate the Highlands and Islands in a big way by basing them around the country. 7 extra locals = another local job.
I'm actually now ashamed to have been in HM Forces as a young man, and by the way barking, when I was, I was actively castigated for supporting the SNP while guys who supported the BNP were openly encouraged to put up BNP posters all over the place! Yeah, Union. Get a life.
You coudnt make this up !
again
scum
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By the way barking, are you mandys lovechild - shurely shome mistake !
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Or maybe you are mandy ?
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# 118 FFP Thanks - better turnout than UK or Scotland- are the French more engaged?
Is it partly cos of their education system then?
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124. Agreed Sid, the Labour sheeple bleating is an all too familiar sound.
It's actually worth watching FMQ's today just to see the seething resentment with which Pauline MacNeil addresses her questions to the First Minister.
Her tone to Salmond sounds more like a rabid prosecuting lawyer winding up a paricularly distressing murder inquiry than an opposition MSP asking a question about Calman. Scary woman.
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89
only-thought-is-free
A veritable Golden Oldie.
It's a year or two since we got the one about pensions.
Must be scared ****less to bring this one up again.
Scotland is no less able than any other nation to pay its pensions but as the UK pays about the lowest basic pension in mainstream Europe and as Gordon Brown shredded UK's pension industry I'd say we are liklier to do better out of the fiscally failed UK state than staying in it.
Isn't it strange how "new" people come in with these new lines of scaremongering?
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#127
Nee McMillan grove street!
Shurely shome Mishtake.
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I really hope that Labour hold on until Spring 2010 for the general election.
It may not be the ideal situation to have an unelected UK prime minister who has been handed the opposite of a mandate to rule (Euro election results) and who is very likely to do a degree of damage to the economy between now and then...
...but that may just be a price worth paying, in order to see a complete destruction of the lot of them once and for all.
As far as the unionists dragging out the same old rabbit from the hat regarding Scotland being less well off had we had the full proceeds of oil for the last 27 years, I may not be a mathematics major, but surely...
if we take factor 'x' as the total oil revenues over 27 years, then...
Per head of population (approx.) x/5 mil. people > x/50 mil. people.
...Indeed I would suggest that this points to the oil revenues being about 10 times more per person than what they were for the typical uk citizen?
McCrone report anyone???
http://www.oilofscotland.org/mccrone_oil_reports.html
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121. At 5:58pm on 18 Jun 2009, frankly_francophone wrote:
It's your own fault, way too much information all at once for him
The "honourable" member for Livingston appears to be clueless too, what was he thinking showing cameras around his flat and claiming a rewire with new consumer unit had been installed. I thought he was another Labour Party apparatchik promoted beyonds his abilities, but his recent behaviour must surely test the bounds of sanity. As for resigning, forget it, he won't forego a large pay off.
I'd also like to point out, all schools being demolished and requiring new builds were with very,very few exceptions built in the last 30 to 40 years. If new buildings had anything to do with education standards Eton, Harrow, Oxford, Cambridge etc would be at the bottom of the academic pile
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It looks as if the Tories will blink first about Calman.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/alancochrane/5570649/Annabel-Goldie-faces-Tory-MSP-rebellion-over-Calman-proposals.html
Some tory MSPs are not happy with Calman, first they set it up then they shoot the messenger. They at least recognize, unlike most of the Scottish media, that if Calman did not score an own goal, he at least left Salmond with an empty net, no surprise when he then scores.
Will the tories vote against their own commission?
Wee Micky Forsyth has also voiced his displeasure, and while he will always be held in high esteem in Scotland as the man who did most to destroy the tories in Scotland, some still listen to him.
What will Gray and the Limp Dems do now, who knows, but then again, who cares.
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Brian
Could we have a political career ending in an understairs loo?
The Right Honorable the Member of Parliament for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath certified to the Parliamentary Offices that a sum of £2713 plus Vat had been paid by him as an expense wholly, exclusively and necessarily to enable him to perform his Parliamentary duties away from his main residence in his claim up to 31.03.08. However when one examines the receipt provided, to be found on page 57 of Parliament's pdf of his 0708_ACA, the payment appears to be for the installation of a wc and handbasin in an understairs cupboard. As it is hard to conceive of our Prime Minister utilising a property without an existing lavatory, the claim must fail the wholly test. Similarly if the said lavatory was to be used by any other than the Right Honorable the Member and persons about his Parliamentary duties it would fail the exclusively test. Does not the Prime Minister have two small sons? The necessarily test comes closest, when you've got to go you've got to go, but again unfortunately fails if there is another lavatory on the premises.
But if Mr Devine can get away with thousands on dodgy electricals and only have to contemplate his future in politics, why should the Prime Minister worry about claiming thousands for apparent home improvements, not repairs, not renewals, as a wholly, exclusively and necessary expense. Certainly this constituent is very interested in how he can square it with his moral compass.
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This so called moderation is getting even worse.
Its discrimination !
I've even had posts removed without any sign of them being removed?
I ventured to mention that the Highlands and Islands would suffer a great deal from 120-170 jobs being lost, and that the british state knows we are leaving its confines. Therefore it is a forgone conclusion that they will relocate their ranges.
Beware Wales N. Ireland and Cornwall !
If we brought our service personnel home we could seriously stimulate the Highlands and Island economy.
Colchester? Germany? Illegal wars?
7 extra wage earners = 1 extra local job ! Plus the other monies injected into the local economies.
Then again there's Trident, which I actually believe is a dead duck as money, call me dave, that wet geezer and Obama have indicated.
However I think we should tread carefully here as they need somewhere to dump their poisonous rubbish, again Wales, N. Ireland and Cornwall beware !
I went on to say that when I was in HM forces as a young man I was castigated for supporting the SNP, while BNP members were actively encouaged to canvas and put up posters everywhere !
I am now thoroughly ashamed of joining up, mind you it beat 50p an hour for sitting on a tractor, then again I only got 50p a day danger money for being in active service !
You really coundnt make this up
Lets finish it !
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I really cant believe this, now the ubc is saying that the SNP have airbrushed out the queen in a photo?
This is what it has come down to and believe me, the british state will not let us go easily, as ever they want their cake and eat it.
Baton down the hatches folks,it has just begun !
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#129 # 124 Stayed up unusually late last night (for me) and saw scottish Questions
Was appalled at the Murphy/Munnle double act re SNP - Munnle is supposed to be the official opposition not the stooge for the Secretary (unnecessary) of state for scotland
Overall when you see their troughing is anybody surprised at boorish self centred behaviour - after all only 10 MP's turned up at the annual defence debate a few weeks ago and we're at war in Afghaniston- 1 MP stated that peace in Europe was due to the EU - hadn't heard of NATO possibly -
So no surpirse now when they behave thoughtlessly,
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# 131
Eh ????
You've really lost the plot
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Have a closer look regarding the damp prrofing and you'll see a Quotation which appears as an invoice. Wish I could get all my quotations paid as well as the invoices. Maybe that's the confusing position the "honourable" member for livingston found himself in, would explain why the rewiring hadn't actually been done.
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105. At 4:13pm on 18 Jun 2009, GrassyKnollington wrote:
I just watched FMQ and was astounded to see that when Western Isles MSP Alasdair Alan stood up to ask a question on behalf of his constituents in Uist where around 170 jobs are to go with the closure of the Qinetiq Rocket Range the Labour MSP's HECKLED him so badly that they were told off by the First Minister.
Astounded is a bit mild. The MoD under LABOUR sold off parts of the defence industry to Qinetiq. There's more to it but the bottom line it happened under a Labour government.
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114. At 5:17pm on 18 Jun 2009, greenockboy wrote:
The signs that the current constitution is breaking up is apparent by the frustration and anger that is evident when the public are allowed access to mass media forums.
I don't think the constitution is exactly breaking up. The SNP are gaining popularity but that does not necessarily mean people want independence right now. Please don't read that as unionist trolling! I just think people aren't quite ready for full independence yet.
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136. At 7:02pm on 18 Jun 2009, neebour wrote:
I went on to say that when I was in HM forces as a young man I was castigated for supporting the SNP, while BNP members were actively encouaged to canvas and put up posters everywhere !
Neebour, I totally disagree with that paragraph. I too served in the Forces and have never, ever seen any evidence of what you stated. The Forces, while allowed to vote, are not allowed to be actively involved in politics whilst serving. You sign up with the option of being sent somewhere to fight, regardless of your views. But you have to accept that as a volunteer.
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132. At 6:47pm on 18 Jun 2009, BoNG0_1 wrote:
I really hope that Labour hold on until Spring 2010 for the general election.
No you don't, because I'll bet they replace Gordon Brown. It won' save them in England, but it might just allow them to hang onto a few seats up here. It's all about timing.
On the other hand, the PM might be totally stubborn and refuse to go. Never mind what's best for the country, as long as he gets his way.
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123. At 6:17pm on 18 Jun 2009, greenockboy:
I don't have a problem with AS claiming for the legal advice. What annoys me is how a lawyer ended up costing the taxpayer 14 grand! I thought many MPs were lawyers.
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The picture issue is simply a non-issue. The picture was used for political purposes, so are those angry over the SNP actions suggesting that the SNP should have used the pictures in their leaflets for political purposes? The Royals are suppose to keep out of politics as far as I know, so were the SNP not right in their actions?
I am also suprised by the possible Tory revolt over the Calman commission. The Calman commission was backed by the Conservatives on the idea of bringing further powers to Scotland, so why are they against the proposals? The Scottish Parliament was backed by the majority of Scots and proved by a referendum (which they opposed), the people also back the idea of further powers for the Scottish Parliament according to the polls, are the Conservatives now retreating back to their roots as the anti-Scottish party of British politics?
I am interested on Conservative policy for Scotland. I am more Conservative leaning rather the Labour, so I am generally keen to learn whst the Conservatives plan to bring to Scotland but I espect it will not be anything of great importance.
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#128 Aikenheed
My personal opinion is that republican citizenship is something that the French education system represents to school pupils as a valuable privilege which imposes on them certain obligations. This is something that they are given the means to work out for themselves by being provided with an educational environment which demonstrates what the republic is supposed to stand for and by being provided with a training in methodical thought within the framework of the discipline of philosophy at appropriate levels, as the exercise of reason is valued by the republic as the means by which the benefits of democratic citizenship may optimally be enjoyed and by which the responsibilities of such citizenship may optimally be discharged.
In other words, muddled thinking is a gift to those who would manipulate the voter, which is what it is all too easy for politicians and the media to do in the UK. Voters in the UK seem to be realizing this in ever-increasing numbers, partly as a result of recent UK scandals, not least the MP-expenses one, just as they are realizing that they have few defences against such manipulation, as they are largely ignorant of public affairs and lack the intellectual training which would equip them to find a way through the maze of deception, misrepresentation and spin, which consequently put them off politics.
While I am aware that not all independentists are republicans, I can only say that for myself it seems pretty obvious that Scottish society could very easily be much healthier in numerous ways if Scotland were a republic than if it remains an appendage of the kingdom of England.
Sorry I won't be able to respond to any responses to this for a while, as I have to go out again.
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# 141 neil - not only did the m oney go to solicitors but it went to Cherie Blair's solicitors - no wonder it failed!!
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Brian
Can anyone explain why a subscription to Sky+ is wholly, exclusively and necessarily incurred by an MP on his/her Parliamentary duties away from their main home? Surely, if anyone else happened to glimpse what was on, it would fail the exclusively test? How, when there is such a profusion of programs, can an MP show that his/her watching has been wholly on Parliamentary duties?
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140. At 7:17pm on 18 Jun 2009, spartans11 wrote:
Wasn't clear that I was reading Gordon Browns expenses regarding the damp proofing.
136. At 7:02pm on 18 Jun 2009, neebour wrote:
I too spent many years in the Armed Forces and I have NEVER seen active encouragement for ANY political activity, never mind the reprehensible BNP
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# 143 Thanks again
"republican citizenship is something that the French education system represents to school pupils as a valuable privilege " this could be easily replaced by citizenship in a democracy is something etc " so it becomes an excercise id developing a responsible attitude to participating rationally in the democratic process rather than a "Monarchy v Republic" issue - the rest of your post I would agree wholeheartedly with - all we seem to get in UK are calls for things to be included in the curriculum which have no contribution to make to inetellectual development
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An ironic counterpoint to the internationalist v nationalist arguments - spotted today on the BBC -
SNP minister criticises BBC Reporting Scotland as being hopelessly provincial featuring stories such as 'Mrs McGlumpha's cat stuck up a tree'
this morning in a piece on the regulation of suntanning salons the director of said suntanning establisment (in central Scotland somewhere)was indeed a Ms McGlumpha -
you wouldn't make this up would you BBC?
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Must have missed the headline on the just released GERS report.
Anyway, the BBC have this article:
Row over Scots financial footing
I have to admire the timing and the choreography of the Unionists on this one. It's allowed the BBC to effectively bury the GERS report that demontrates Scotland is in fiscal surplus (again) and taint the articles and coverage with the blatant propaganda put out by Westminster's Scotland branch, headed by 'Scotland's secret shame' Jim Murphy.
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neebour #137 yep fully agree .looking forward to the
"john swinney ate my hamster "story along with
"Nicola sturgeon is an alien" story or
"SNP leader eats some dinner"oh sorry they have done that one already or they could go the hole hog and have
"Labour MSP found to have a conscience" or
" RARE FIND - journalist in Scotland found with a spine"
Sid
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149 greenockboy, the SNP have started referring to Jim Murphy as "The Secretary of State Against Scotland" but "Scotland's secret shame Jim Murphy" sounds good too :O)
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re#142 - Thomas ,good evening, if you think back to the start of the calman commission ,certainly the labour party were telling us they would be looking at returning some of the powers to Westminster which didn't go down very well .they then moved on to keeping the status quo and it wasn't till later in the process before they admitted that there would need to be some movement of powers to appease the growing rumblings for full fiscal autonomy . so the Tory's might have been OK at the beginning of the process but not so happy with the final outcome . And here was me thinking it was only the Lib dems that were getting shafted- as usual!
Sid.
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Scotland would prosper says report
"Commenting on the publication of Government Expenditure and Revenue Scotland report 2007-08 which confirms Scotlands economic potential Treasury Spokesman Stewart Hosie MP said; With this three year surplus of £2.3 billion even GERS is showing Scotland would be in a far healthier financial position than the UK as a whole."
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cynicalHighlander re 153
Thank you for the link. Now I may be guessing, but why do I think that this report may be hard to find in the Scottish media.
Now a truly independent broadcaster (something Scotland sadly lacks) would have both sides debating the issue leaving the public to judge who is right, but that will not happen here.
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Re my 154.
I must apologize to The Herald and Brian Currie.
http://www.theherald.co.uk/politics/news/display.var.2515217.0.North_Sea_oil_revenue_would_see_Scotland_in_the_black.php
Mr pay for two hospitals and get one, Andy Kerr sounds even more desperate than ever
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The GERS report that demontrates Scotland is in fiscal surplus (again)
However on closer anaylsis of previous GERs report the figures are deliberatly suppressed. These in-accuracies add up to quite a lot.
Difference between Actuals and 2005 GERS £2,962 Million
Difference between Actuals and 2006 GERS £114 Million
Go to http://www.oilofscotland.org
The links to these in depth reports on these inaccuracies in the GERS reports are about half way down in the list of reasons why Scotland needs to become Independent.
When you are on the THE GREAT DECEPTION - GERS 2005 or the THE GREAT OBFUSCATION - GERS- 2006 pdf file go right to the bottom for a table of figures.
All data is backed up evidence.
Go to http://www.oilofscotland.org
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Blackout: the great MPs' expenses cover-up
"Hundreds of pages of claims have been removed altogether before the expense files were published. Many of these will be made available on the Telegraph website. Tomorrow, The Daily Telegraph, which last month obtained an uncensored version of the expenses files, will publish a special 68-page magazine supplement detailing the claims made by every sitting MP."
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As he's my MP, though I didn't vote for him, I'm totally ashamed of his behaviour. The question must be asked, especially in light of today's revelation of his 'double-floorng' of his London flat, why his constituency Labour party supported him unanimously. Some of the principle 'drivers' of the CLP are now, I see, putting themselves forward as candidates to fill his besmirched seat. Why should I, and my fellow electors trust them to be any better, if they agreed with his actions?
The whole Labour party is corrupt, both locally and nationally, and the only decent thing they can do is resign and call a general election. But then decency seems to be in short supply in their ranks. The people must be given the opportunity to have their say, now that the Star Chamber has passed its verdict on Mr Devine. Locally rhe Lbour party says that he next election wll be a straight choice between them and the Tories. Wrong! The next election must be a choice between Scotland and Westminster.
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The 2007-8 GERS data is available (with all its analysis) here
http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2009/06/18101733/1
Summary
In 2007-08, the estimated current budget balance for the public sector in Scotland was ...... a surplus of GBP219 million (0.2 per cent of GDP) including an estimated geographical share of North Sea revenue.
In 2007-08, the estimated fiscal balance in Scotland, that is the estimated current budget balance plus estimated net capital investment, was a deficit of GBP3.8 billion (2.7 per cent of GDP) when an estimated geographical share of North Sea revenue is included.
Total public sector expenditure for Scotland in 2007-08 was estimated at GBP53.3 billion, equivalent to 9.6 per cent of total UK public sector expenditure.
'Identifiable' public sector expenditure for Scotland was estimated at GBP46.0 billion in 2007-08, equivalent to 9.9 per cent of the corresponding UK total.
In 2007-08, 'non-identifiable' public sector expenditure was estimated at GBP7.4 billion, equivalent to 8.2 per cent of the corresponding UK total. Accounting adjustments added GBP2.9 billion, 10.7 per cent of the UK equivalent total.
Can anyone give me the link to Scotland Office analysis? All I can find are press releases.
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There's a link to the Scotland Office publication in this Labour blog
http://www.yousufhamid.com/2009/06/commodities-and-caledonia.html
Interesting typo by the blogger "It's an interesting report with a great deal of fool for thought" !!!!
That this document is a political, not an economic analysis is demonstrated by the language used eg "Oil revenues can be used only once, you cant spend them to offset an expenditure black hole and invest them in an oil fund at the same time."
I have never seen an academic or professional analysis that would use such language. If you have the time the GERS report and the Scotland Office's "Background Paper" are worth comparing.
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#141+146
You were lucky then.
I was not in a Scottish Regiment, or the army!
This was over 30 years ago but I remember it vividly to this day !
Get real, this is the british state we're talking about.
PS I wasn't canvasing, they merely knew my politcal persuasion.
As I said BNP activists were actively encouraged.
Rule Britania
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#81 Brownedov
Thanks for the link to 'Online Crime Reporting' (Re my 'Dubious Electrical Wiring Invoice post' #77)
While tempted, I would probably be wasting my time - If the police didn't go after expelled Tory MEP Den Dover for his £500,000 'misdimeanor' - they are hardly likely to go after Jim Divine for less than £5000.
But.....breaking news, it would seem he is to be investigated again for claiming for wooden flooring twice! You couldn't make it up!
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Anyone wondering why Jim Murphy was keeping a low profile throughout the expenses revelations by The Telegraph can be sure that it wasn't due to Murphy's tax returns not being in order.
This is because Jim Murphy has been billing the taxpayer for the services of chartered accountants over three years, 2006, 2007 and 2008.
'Honest' Jim has employed McDaid and Partners, Chartered Accountant, to look after his tax return as an MP to the tune of 1198.50 pounds.
I believe the term for this revelation is a 'scoop'.
There you go BBC, you can have it for free - no need to credit me with sniffing it out.
There's more in Murphy's expenses, I assure you.
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I think what this blog shows vis a vis the Unionist position is summed up in the words of Scotland's National bard:
"The mair ye bang, the mair they squeal
And its 'hey' for Houghmagandie!"
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Newsnight Scotland - strangely, much on Alex Salmond's £35 cake stand but why no mention of squeaky clean Lib, Clegg Chief of Staff, Danny Alexander? In a recent article in his local paper the Strathspey & Badenoch Herald he claimed that he claimed the minimum on a flat that he owned "a decade ago" before he was an MP. Yet strangely in his expenses published today he claims £1400 for moving to "new flat" in June 2007 and his mortgage interest doubles in June 2007 from £500+ a month to over £1100 a month! Lets not even start on his £1100 "Jim Devine Shelves", the joiner details conveniently blacked out in the Westminster published expenses reports (Was it a local publican :). Obviously all the shelf work was done on his "second" home in London, despite the fact that his constituents in Aviemore know fine well that his family live in London and only visit the constituency when it suits. Apparently also when the BBC suits to bothjer investigating..and never any mention of the thousands that Charles Kennedy puts away on fees for speeches and media appearances....oh...mostly on the BBC...Oh and he used to work for the BBC...and...oh...another MP that has his "second home" in London...despite the fact that his constituents only see he and his family on holidays or the very occasional weekend!
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161. At 10:40pm on 18 Jun 2009, neebour:
Please substantiate your claims. I joined the RAF in 1984, and knew people who joined the forces 5-15 years prior to that.
I have never, ever heard or seen anything remotely like what you are claiming. In fact, I don't even think the BNP actually existed 30 years ago.
What is the point that you are trying to make? That somehow the UK Government actively tried to get Scottish service personnel to vote for an extremist party to counter the SNP? The SNP were not even a threat 30 years ago. Devolution did not exist, and the SNP had no chance of toppling anyone. (Well, apart from instigating the fall of Callaghan's government).
We get a few conspiracy theories on here, and a few wild facts (from both sides I must add), but this takes the biscuit.
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Anyone wanting to see car crash TV and the beginning of the end of another Scottish Labour MP's trough snuffling career, then watch Eric Joyce on Newsnight.
Utterly brilliant, and Brewer doesn't even try !!
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To those who are complaining about MPs addresses being blacked out - would the press be very keen if all their home addresses were published? Would the press want their wining and dining expenses at pubs within quarter of a mile of Westminster published?
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And surprise surprise BBC Scotland conveniently clears my comments after they finish the item on expenses. Please BBC Scot give Paul Hudghton some help...remember you were once journalists and actually look into some stories and do your research!
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The GERS figures only show what we already know - Scotland can stand on its own feet. If we had been suppplying England with bananas we would have been independent shortly after WW2. They hold onto us because we contribute that much to the UK economy. Never heard the Onionists saying to all the Carribean islands or African states in the sixties that they should stay attached to Great Britain. They'd already screwed those people and dumped them when they weren't needed.
It's time for us to get out before they use up our resources - oil might be declining but water is what the SE of England is going to need in future and we all know we've got plenty of that, with more to come due to climate change. I'd rather be in a poor (not that we will be)independent country where we make our own decisions than be told we're to wee and stupid to control our own destiny.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, Brian when are you going to report the political situation in Scotland with some fairness. You and your BBC colleagues should be seriously thinking about jumping ship as independence is inevitable. You've got a good Scottish accent and you should want the best for your country so why not be the first BBC journalist to tell the people who are pulling your strings that you've had enough of trying to fool the Scottish electorate. Surely you've got a good pension plan if they sacked you - at least you could sit back watching independence unfold knowing that you had done something positive for the country and that your conscience was clear. The people of Scotland will remember those in the press who tried to mislead them when independence comes. Go on surprise us. I think Glens a lost cause though.
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Just finished watching 'Question Time'...
...never have I seen a political programme so irrelevant to Scotland.
If ever Scotland needed an advert for autonomy, then this programme was it.
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I see on one of the blogs that they claim that Douglas Alexander has re payed 12 thousand pounds expenses claim, but still says he has done nothing wrong.
There is no link to this in the blog. Can anyone tell me if this is correct or not.
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#166 "The SNP were not even a threat 30 years ago."
The SNP faced the same media bias shortly after Winnie Ewing won the Hamilton by-election in 1967 and it grew as the SNP gained more MP's. If they wern't a threat why the need to convince the Scottish public that a vote for the SNP was a wasted vote. Heard and read (BBC, Daily Record etc)it all the time in the early 70's.
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#147 Aikenheed
Naturally, I have no wish to embark on a critique of constitutional monarchy. Nevertheless, on intellectual grounds, republicanism has an appeal which, intrinsically, has, I would suggest, a greater capacity to captivate a citizenry which wishes to believe that the state of which they are citizens is truly 'the thing of the people' and genuinely can provide them with equality of opportunity rather than a simulacrum of it.
Let us face it: in the monarchical democracy that is the UK, where the head of state symbolizes not democracy or reason but inherited privilege, intellectuals are never going to be widely respected, as they are in the republic of France, where the media today have been covering the baccalaureat philosophy exams in great detail, because they know that people generally are very interested in the content of these exam papers, which were reproduced on the Internet and in the other media today immediately after pupils sat the exams. Every single question has been pored over enthusiastically by the general public and analyzed with great interest by the media. And this is - let me remind you - philosophy that I am talking about! Furthermore, people in France seem blissfully unaware that there is anything remarkable about this. There is, of course, nothing remarkable about it in the republic of reason that the French have made, but there certainly would be in the kingdom of Blighty!
Imagine your Derek enthusing about an exam paper on the subject of a treatise in political philosophy. The mind boggles. It more than boggles. It practically seizes up, although anyone who genuinely believes in equality of opportunity should be worshipping at the temple of reason rather than daubing graffiti all over it. No, I am sorry, for me monarchy is a problem in a democracy. Monarchy has the capacity to alienate people from their responsibilities to their fellow citizens and lead them to put their own interests far ahead of those of the community, not least in the case of gong-chasing elected representatives of the people in the UK legislature, who in some cases have evidently managed to persuade themselves that, in order to discharge their responsibilities as the people's representatives they need to be re-imbursed for expenditure on teddy bears and sweeties, not to mention tradesmen's work that allegedly has not in fact been done or shelves that have allegedly never been put up. Pathetic. Bizarre. Disgraceful.
In this whole MPs-expenses farrago there is for all to see a gross and glaring disconnection between MPs and the tribune's duty to the people and between the concept of representative democracy and the reality of it as it actually exists within the dilapidated and antiquated institutions of the dilapidated and antiquated UK state, which is decidedly not 'the thing of the people', which is a truth to which recent events have opened the people's eyes in the UK even though they don't know their Tocqueville from their Schopenhauer and appear to be deliriously content with that state of affairs, as deliriously content as they have been taught to be to still have a monarchy. Who has taught them this? The gong-chasing servants of the monarchical establishment have taught them this over the generations, as have all its tame, domesticated creatures, who, instead of serving the people, have been chasing gongs and submitting their MPs' expense claims for duck islands, moats and I don't know what else, not to mention all that shelving.
Is hoping for the removal of the monarchy tantamount to hoping for the impossible? As it happens, one of the questions in today's general philosophy paper concerned hoping for the impossible. Is it reasonable to hope for the impossible? First you define your terms. What is meant by "the impossible"? It was once believed that human flight was impossible. And so it is. Don't try it. Not without an aeroplane, anyway. Evidently, all the people who confidently subscribed to the formerly received wisdom that human flight is an impossibility have been proved wrong, just as have those who thought that republicanism would never catch on in France.
Eventually, reason prevails, which is why Scotland may be free one day and many of you will want it to be a republic and will know as much about de Tocqueville and Schopenhauer as the grey-haired gentleman who realized a lifetime's ambition today by sitting his bac philo exam belatedly with the teenagers of today, having missed out on things of this nature to his great disappointment when he had to leave school early during the Nazi Occupation. There are two kinds of people: those who respect reason and those who do not. Those who respect reason know why they should not steal shelving from the people. Those who do not respect reason couldn't care less.
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173. At 11:52pm on 18 Jun 2009, fifebirder wrote:
#166 "The SNP were not even a threat 30 years ago."
The SNP faced the same media bias shortly after Winnie Ewing won the Hamilton by-election in 1967 and it grew as the SNP gained more MP's. If they wern't a threat why the need to convince the Scottish public that a vote for the SNP was a wasted vote. Heard and read (BBC, Daily Record etc)it all the time in the early 70's.
The SNP would not have been in a position to threaten stability unless they had won a majority of the Westminster seats in the early 1970s. Labour were far too dominant then. Nor was there a devolved parliament as there is now.
I was criticising the comments that somehow the Armed Forces were being actively encouraged to vote and campaign for an extremist party in irder to thwart the SNP.
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I've noticed a couple of comments recently suggesting that Northern Ireland will soon be part of Ireland again, governed by Dublin. I would suggest reading in-depth about the history and issues in Ireland/Northern Ireland. There remain deep divisions and it is highly unlikely in the forseeable future that the two countries will be linked again. There is no simple solution there.
Scotland's situation is relatively simple in comparison.
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#174
frankly-frankcophone,That was a big read, I'm touched (seriously) and I question whether in a general sense we all negate the true meaning of freedom.
I would like to understand your pragmatic style and calm sense of zen'
but I can't help to see! that to many dreams cloud the horizon of Scotland's progressive future.
Hey! I read some more and who knows, may I'll cast that first stone into the pond that start the big ripple.
Wishing you peace and success.
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Read about the
Scandalous Pathetic Insidious - Scottish Press and Institutions
http://www.oilofscotland.org/scotlands_news.asp
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#174 frankly_francophone
Thanks for your post. Regarding the Republic/Monarchy question, I am inclined towards a republic for reasons broadly concurrent with those you've articulated. However, practical implementation may have to wait a while given the antipathy of the electorate here towards the elected. In this climate, I don't believe an elected head of state would be an easy office to establish. First of all we need to re-establish some level of mutual respect between the electorate and their representatives (or simply CREATE it, as it's not clear this has ever existed in the UK). The SNP government at Holyrood has been making some progress on this, as you allude to in your earlier post #110
'"you need a long succession of minor services, routine good deeds and a constant habit of benevolence and selflessness."'
(I don't claim a perfect record here, but a good start nonetheless). I have no doubt an independent Scottish state will provide the conditions for this trust to grow, something the UK is fundamentally ill equipped to. In the meantime, the monarchy is seen to be aside from party politics, if not politics per se. Stripped of it's constitutional powers, these being codified into a written constitution with mechanisms to implement them, I have no problem with it continuing as an interim solution in an independent Scotland.
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#175
Good post. The SNP were entertained as an interesting diversion by the so called "Scottish" press until they became a serious threat which happened after they won 11 Westminster seats in October 1974 (with second places in most of the other seats). Then the lies started.
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Neil # 166
I must apoligise, I sit corrected, you are right - it was the national front !
However I must pick you up on a few points.
I was merely trying to point out, that after all this recent guff about the bnp, ukip, monster raving loonie party etc etc that we've seen recently that the british state only allows what it deems acceptable.
I was NOT complaining that I had personnaly suffered harassment, or been discriminated against - apart from my political views. In fact I have some very fond memories, and was pleasantly referred to as "our Jock" the point is, anti nationist polices were in place even in those days.
And excuse me, maybe you are too young but I seem to remember voting in a rigged referendum in the late 70's - and why was the McCrone report authorised ? Do think that was a coincedence ?
The fact is there IS a conspiracy, the british state is determined to keep us at their beck and call, under control, keep the union together and take us for all we've got, resourses, workforce etc etc For gods sake why do you think they are called unionist parties?!
What have they done for you ?
When your children ask you why our waters are being so polluted by nuclear waste being dumped at sea (for a long time now)to the extent that civilian agencies cannot even investigate or report to the public, what will you say ?
We both may have taken the kings shilling, as many of our countrymen and women have for generations (better than sitting on a tractor for 50p an hour), across the globe for 600 years, but that certainly does not mean we have to accept their lies.
Ask yourself this, did you agreed with the Iraq war ?
Do you think the blatant abuse of the UN by bliar and bush stands us in good stead ?
Do you think our EUROPEAN friends in France Germany etc etc respect us more for that decsion ?
Why do you think McConnell and co toed the line - simple, they were told to.
Maybe you have also forgotten that unlike MP's, MSP's swear an allegiance to the Scottish people - not the monarchy !
Lets finish this.
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I see the 'honourable' member for Livingston is literally using the 'big boy did it and ran away' excuse for his laminate flooring. Astounding! Who is this 'former employee' and what would they have had to gain by submitting false claims in Mr Devine's name?
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Neil Re your #166 & #175
I normally enjoy your posts, but on this occasion, History appears to be playing tricks with your memory.
1) you are right BNP didn't exist in 1979, it was their earlier incarnation, the National Front
2) SNP were a huge threat in the 70's - Remember 'It's Scotland's Oil', The McCrone Report (Only recently released under freedom of information), Tam Dalyell's 'West Lothian Question' , and of course the first Devolution Referendum where over 50% voted yes, but Devolution was denied, because of a dodgy Labour clause altering the way the election result was interpreted.
3)Re Northern Ireland, with a majority of Protestants in the province, Northern Ireland would always be likely to vote to stay within the Union. But have you checked recent demographics, the Roman Catholic minority are on course to become the majority very,very soon, if it hasn't already happened. (If the Catholic majority then push for a vote on re-unification of Ireland, it would then become something of a doomsday scenario - the chances of a new outbreak of troubles would become a distinct possibility unless the then sizeable minority of Protestants were convinced they would be better off).
4. And so what about Wales....I have lived in Wales for the last 7 years and their patriotism revolves solely round rugby - they appear to have little or no wish to leave a union of which they have been part of, since they were conquered by England some 700 years ago. Indeed in Cardiff, they have more allegiance to Arsenal, Man United. and Liverpool than to Cardiff City.
Religion, Politics and Football.....always a recipe for a fight!
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# 174 FFP
Gosh! - food for thought indeed - many thanks.
I have always been mildly drawn towards a republic but never really articulated it to myself. I would support a monarchist independent Scotland in the short term as a move to republicanism would probably be a bridge too far for most people.
However, for the medium term I'll have to think more seriously about it
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
First - as an ex-serviceman - the politics of the Forces merely reflect the politics of the UK; there were some nutters but they were given a hard time for their views.
Second - The message is clear with every BBC political piece - the establishment is running very scared of Wee Eck and the SNP for clearly self interested reasons.
Third - the longer the establishment leave Gordon Brown in situ the greater the threat from Wee Eck and the SNP because the polls show more and more Scots are sick fed up of Westminster's gerry mandering promises of jam tomorrow.
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180 & 182
OK, I was in primary school in the arly/mid 70s so I don't really know much about the vote then! We did call the SNP the "Scottish Nose Pickers" though!
180:
Iraq War? First one I agreed with, absolutely did not agree with the second. In fact, it was thanks to the resources being thrown into Iraq that the Afghanistan campaign has ended up such a mess.
182 Angus
Re Northern Ireland. It will take years, if not decades before things ever settle down. It is a massively complex situation and one I would hate to try and find a solution to.
180 neebour
The BNP are the smart version of their predecessor. However, their share of the vote in the EU elections overall was down as far as I know. Much like the Greens, they attract a fair amount of attention, but with extremist policies they will never achieve power. (Research the internal power struggles of the Green leadership, makes the removal of Caesar look like a primary school play!)
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Has Devines Career in politics been shelved? for, by the look of things its more like Cancelled by self greed I would say.
So therefore, when will Brown get around to move over Darling, by having a Ball instead.
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I am surprised you thought of an abusive name for the SNP in Primary school if you were so unaware of their existence.
There again , I would be surprised if you did'nt succeed in an oh so well thought out insult masquerading under the " I care " persona which you have cultivated.
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Yet again I have been blanked for accusing unionist politicians for being corrupt and devoid of principles.
I only mentioned that maybe 15-20 years ago (thatcher time)the EU, in Brussels, who I trust a lot more than westmonster, refused to give a grant of 170 million pounds to (deprived areas) Fife and Lanararkshire because the multi party unionists agreed to refuse to pubish the accounts !
I wonder where the money would have gone, hmmm, home counties , city of london, M25? Like all the previous grants to deprived areas, (England, Wales, N Ireland included) bearing in mind that these localities had the worst poverty rates in Europe at the time, and that includes Portugal and Italy. And by the way this story was even reported in the southern media.
They did this to their own people, it beggars belief?
When are these so called socialists and liberals going to cross the floor? Even the tories, because i welcome a true democracy.
They dont have the guts or the respect for their own people to put themselves on a democratic platform.
This is how its going to be from now on, believe you me !
Lets finish this
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#172 dubbieside- morning , well the only proof we have is coming from wee Dougie himself .has he repaid the money?,is it his own money he is using? the fact that he can produce 12,000 GBP at the drop of a hat to pay off something that was not a mistake(so he says),just so there is no misunderstandings is unbelievable. what else is he hiding???
Sid
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I think the discussion of Monarchy versus Rublicanism should be kept on the back burner until after independence. There are a huge clump of potential SNP voters out there who are also monarchists and they should not be scared off with discussions about Republicanism. We have a big enough battle ahead of us without giving the Unionists another stick to beat us with. The philosophical ideals of citizenship can triumph within a benign monarchy as well as in a republic. Republicanism has many faces and not all of them are conducive to the furtherance of the 'Rights of Man'.
Personally, I would be happy to have a Republic but I am more than willing to live in a democratic Monarchy too.
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#176 derekbarker
Thank you for your nice reply, Derek. I'm overwhelmed.
#178 mmarsattacks and #183 Aikenheed
I know. Republicanism is not on the agenda in Scotland at the moment. Its time may come, though.
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189. Diabloandco I don't think most of us long term bloggers are taken in by Neil. A quick shuftie through his posting history from April 2007 ( revealed by clicking on his name) is evidence that he wishes the SNP well in the way that I want a Labour Government back in Scotland.
"Alex Salmond wants a "rebate"?
What planet is he on? I think this is deliberate posturing which is aggresively trying to get Westminster to review the current funding arrangements.
What if Westminster says "OK, here's your money, but we're now going to drop the current funding arrangements"?
He is behaving like a spoilt child and this constant immature behaviour is frankly becoming embarrassing.
I suggest that the FM starts behaving himself and concentrate on serious issues like crime and education. Stop causing conflict."
Above is just one of many of his posts. I expect my post will lead to him telling me that he was "open to persuasion" on the subject of independence" but that this sort of ranting intolerant fundamentalism is just the sort of thing that turns "reasonable" people like him away from the SNP.
C'mon Neil, who are you really?
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Just a thought but - given that, as so many Westminster MPs these days are so quick to pronounce - the UK Parliament's expenses system is broken, greater transparency is needed, politics has to be seen to be open and honest etc. etc. - shouldn't our 646 Westminster MPs be collectively repaying the GBP 140,000 spent on legal fees etc. trying to cover up the whole sorry mess.
If I were Alec Salmond; I'd be waving a cheque for GBP 216.72, as my personal contribution, just to expose the shame and cowardice of the rest of them.
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I listened to Falkirk MP Eric Joyces bizarre ramblings on News Night Scotland and wondered if hed made a political death wish. On this unbelievably shambolic performance his wish has surely been granted. He mumbled and stumbled over almost every word and hardly completed a coherent sentence.
On being questioned by Gordon Brewer if hed avoided paying capital gains tax, Joyce appeared offended and asked Brewer why hed brought his wife and his separation into the discussion.
After more ramblings from Joyce, Brewer seemed to become even more exasperated, and shortly afterwards gave up trying to get a sensible answer.
Eric Joyce claimed on a house in Croydon which he sold in 2007 for £383,000. He did not pay capital gains tax on the profit when he sold the house.
He is the first MP to claim more than £1 million cumulatively in expenses.
As I say, a truly bizarre performance.
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The French Revolution marks the beginning of the modern world (and the end of Monarchy as supreme power); as with the Communist experiment in Russia the reality, as politics took over from idealism, showed perfectly the problems associated with (the lust for) power ... It is both uplifting and incredible that so many posters to these threads imagine that a new regime in Scotland could somehow be different; the sad fact remains that the politician is an animal driven by this lust, and no matter how it is dressed up (for example as Nationalism) it is neverthless the least desirable quality in those who would lead us (whither Plato ???) ...
I admire the attempts to introduce a discussion on Political Philosophy, and the attendant comments on the teaching or pratice of Philosphy in Schools; I think it is already a Higher (or GCSE) that is offered by some Schools here (can someone confirm this ???) ... The wider debate, on the curriculum (and right now the CfE) and standards in Education, must form the backdrop; the creation of City Academies (sadly there's not one that focuses on Philosophy) is simply, ultimately, the acceptance that people are innately different, that they have different talents and limits ... It would be nice if the idealism of the Victorians (we're all born equal, children are Blank Slates etc. ...) turned out to be correct; then we could enforce on everyone the conjugation of Latin verbs, certain that it would (in and of itself) edify and enrich and not worry too much that it would be of little use on the building site ...
The achievement of the French in creating such a 'republic of reason' (#174) has been a wonderful legacy of intellectualism, philosophical inquiry and high art; were it only so here ...
Having said that the French are riven by public sector strife and (like us, to an extent) sruggle with the consequences of that other legacy - of Empire ...
This is like no time in living memory (doh); The vox populi is heard and acted upon ... The chance exists to redefine political structures, to sweep away the daft multiple layers of Government (MPs, MSPs, MEPs) that combine to confuse and conflict ... We don't (just) need 'independence' from the rest of the UK, and we don't need one set of mad men in place of another; we need to re-think what we need from Government, and how that is realised; we need to redefine the roles and purpose of our elected representatives (even to the point of asking if election is the best way to find them - see Platonoc reference above); we need a new manifesto for political thought and new ideas to challenge and drive forwarZZZZZzzz ... Sorry, got carried away there ...
The Devine Comedy indeed ...
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Let me see if I have got this right.
A former employee of Jim Devine committed fraud in his name.
So the former employee filled in Devines expenses claim, signed it and submitted it. Payed presumably into Devines bank account? So how did the fraud committing employee benefit?
Answers on a pub shelf please.
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#192 gedguy2
While I am familiar with the approach to monarchy which the SNP adopts, understand your point and am familiar with your argument, I think that, for the purpose of making a point about the existing UK polity, reference may reasonably be made occasionally to alternative systems, even if doing so amounts to throwing a "stone into the pond that start the big ripple", as Derek puts it (#176).
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# 196 myretoun
I am listening to the Newsnight Scotland now and I feel embarrassed for this MP for he his totally rambling. I wonder what his constituents feel about this.
Another point that I'd like to put forward is that, is this a turning point in BBC Scotland where they are actually doing their job by not letting the MPs off the hook? If so, then about time too. I will expect more of this type of grilling of potential offenders as opposed to the normal Labour Party line that the BBC in Scotland has been spouting of late.
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#197 The_Concept_Of_Mind
Yes. There are Intermediate and Higher courses in Philosophy. It is also taught in a number of Primary schools and in the lower years of a lot of Secondaries - usually labelled as "Thinking".
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#199 frankly-francophone
Wish I could have worded it a bit better however I think you grasped my thoughts.
Looking forward to more of your inputs and of course less of my own.
With kind regards! the pupil.
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# 199 frankly_francophone
I am not against your views put forward in # 174. In fact, I'd go as far as to say that I support most of them. However, the problem with a big ripple (# 199) is that it tends to rock the boat. This is not something that the SNP would welcome, at the moment, seeing as the Unionist Parties in Scotland are so busy pulling out the plug in their own boats.
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# 197 The_Concept_Of_Mind
I tend to agree with you that it may benefit society if there was a radical change in the way that power is harnessed by those who are meant to lead us. Too often those that we elect abuse the power given to them by us and use that authority, not only further their own ends, but to interperate this power to futher the needs of a system that is not neccesarily beneficial to those that elected them. My father was correct when he advised me not to vote for someone who wants to be a politician.
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This simply strengthens the belief that if you stick a Labour Rosette on a wheelie bin it will get elected in the central belt.
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The SNP were not a force to be reckoned with in the 70s & 80s because they were basically a single policy party. There was nothing behind the tartan clad rhetoric "its oor oil". They made a fair good argument on that point, which scared the Unionist parties, because they would rather the issue had remained hidden. Other than the various arguments about Independence, there was little or nothing of substance save very general ideals on the welfare and running of a Scottish State. Over the last 25 years, the SNP have matured into a major political force with sophisticated policies across the broad spectrum of society. People like the "hnourable" member for Livingston have encouraged this growth with numerous examples over the years of self interest and cronyism. However, I would again say that anyone espousing SNP views or for that matter National Front views would generally be greeted with derision in the Forces. The Armed Forces have never encouraged political activity of any kind other than ensuring a serviceman is encouraged to vote. The demise of the main parties is due to their focus on Middle England(Tories) and Party before People(Labour).
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#197 The_Concept_Of_Mind
Of course, no political system is perfect. I am under no illusion that in independent Scotland will be an utopia. My point is that some systems are more open and accountable than others, the UK being one of the least open and accountable as the last weeks and months have unquestionably shown. There are of course no guarantees but it would be difficult to come up with something worse. A system born in this age of mass communication and unprecedented access to information surely must improve on the Westminster midden. Public scrutiny of its genesis will not permit anything less.
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People, the latest GERS has been published and reviewed (http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/douglasfraser/), yet only one solitary nationalist has so far commented.
Sort it out, all.
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David Marshall's expenses here
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#203 gedguy2
What you think the SNP would or would not welcome at the moment is not my concern, as I don't pretend to speak for that party, whose strategies over the past three decades and more I am, nonetheless, intimately familiar with. I stand by the point that I made at #199.
For good or ill, rocking the boat is something that I am rather given to doing, I am afraid. Not a team player. Here I stand. I can do no other.
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Devine: "A big boy did it and ran away".
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Comment 208 writes:
People, the latest GERS has been published and reviewed, yet only one solitary nationalist has so far commented.
It's by Douglas Fraser, late of The Herald where he lost all credibility as an objective political reporter. You'll find few independence supporters who pay any attention to him these days.
The fact that he was saved up by the BBC when The Herald were about to cut their staff numbers says it all. Let's put it this way, Glenn Campbell and Douglas aren't going to have a major disagreement any time soon.
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#167 greenockboy &
#196 myretoun
Re Eric Joyce and "trough snuffling" on Newsnicht. After reading your posts I was hoping that us expats [who can't watch it via the iPlayer] would get this treat on this website's useful Newsnight Scotland highlights
Instead we're treated to 4m of Speaker's legacy in Springburn. With a snippet from an old lady in the constituency asking how often Martin visits followed by Duff Gordon's sick-making "tribute" to him in the House of Cards, it's not exactly good news for NuLab but doubtless less awful than the treat Joyce seems to have been.
I'll just have to hope the Joyce interview will turn up on YouTube!
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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Ditto #213 Brownedov - can someone with the wherewithal oblige us please?
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PS to my #213
My wish is obviously Moridura's command. See Eric Joyce, MP - The Face of Scottish Labour, now celebrated as "Britain's most expensive MP".
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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212. It is astonishing just how many journo's and commentators have "lost all credibility" among the nationalists nowadays merely because they criticise the SNP.
And on that Fraser blog, we can already see a nationalist calling the GERS (signed off by Salmond himself, let's not forget) "all lies" because it still does not toe the nationalist line that 'Scotland subsidises the rest of the UK' despite thousands of SNP-ordered recalculations.
Each day, we witness the nationalist contingent retreat further and further away from reality.
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For Reluctant's next riveting post I predict him referring us to a piece by that scion of political impartiality, Prof Curtice, on why the EU election result in Scotland was just a protest vote.
Just answer for me Reluctant: why a Labour swing to Tory of 4% is thanks to the good political message the Tories are sending out, yet a Labour swing to the SNP of 8% is simply a protest vote?
How about explaining why Devine gets the chop from Labour (just happens to be in a seat the SNP are likely to win in 2010) while Joyce (in Falkirk where Labour still think a dead sheep with a red rosette will win)is left unscathed by the Nu Labour exec - apart from the suicide note announced by him on Newsnicht?
Just which Nu Labour / Unionist Party are we to believe when it comes to them actually taking real action to clean up Westminster?
Devine is a sacrificial pawn, thrown to the baying masses in the hopes that Nu Labour will get off the hook, yet again, in Scotland by looking 'hard'. The problem is that folk notice that Darling, Murphy et al who have been at it as well, if a little less blatantly, are forgiven if they mumble sorry and pay back a small percentage of their claims.
What GERS demonstrates time and time again is there has been no real economic benefit to Scotland from the Union. What people are waking up to with the SNP in Holyrood is there is no political benefit from the Union either with, for example, Scottish prawn quota being given to the German's for some deal on Westminster's behalf at the EU which benefited SE England.
England currently needs Scotland's excess power generation to keep the lights on in the North East and West, there are already plans in place to create a water main to shift water from Scotland south via Keilder, if it was not for the high profile SNP objection to Nuclear Power one of the sites that would have been recently announced is at Ross Bay, in Galloway, on the Solway where all output would have gone straight across the Solway to Maryport in Cumbria for distribution.
Make your mind up Reluctant - who is actually dependent on whom?
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Reluctant-Expat writes:
It is astonishing just how many journo's and commentators have "lost all credibility" among the nationalists nowadays merely because they criticise the SNP.
Paul Hutcheon and Iain Macwhirter regularly criticise the SNP as does Robbie Dinwoodie, that alone completely destroys your comment.
These journalists, one an avid supporter of the Union, try to be balanced.
Taylor, Campbell, Maddox, Fraser, Cochrane, Wark et al deserve our contempt. To measure the contempt, simply divide their combined salaries by zero and add on 'Big Bird's' weight.
Anyway:
let's sit back and wait for the plethora of headlines over Jim Murphy's use of taxpayers money to pay for an accountant to look at his tax returns.
Let's see Mr Murphy's fondness for claiming petty cash creating headlines.
Let's wait for the headlines condemning Murphy for using taxpayers money for the payment of Christmas cards.
If the BBC, The Herald and The Scotsman pursue Jim Murphy then perhap some journalists may redeem themselves.
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Ex Pat.
The Scotland office stated:
''Last years Gers figures suggested Scotland would be in budget surplus to the tune of £800million with a geographical share of North Sea revenues but a per capita share of oil revenues would mean a deficit of £6billion.''
I assume you agree that an Independent Scotland would of course be entitled to a 'geographical' share ?
Any suggestions as to why the 'Scotland Office' launched a pre-emptive strike on these figures prior to publishing ?
Wansanshoo.
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Hahahaha Eric Joyce, "they look nice". Falkirk must be so proud! "asking questions about my wifes life". This is genius. Absolute genius. You couldn't write this stuff.
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From the Times:
"The authors of the GERS report, who produce the figures without any political interference by ministers, said yesterday that the current spending surplus, including oil revenues, was equivalent to about 0.2 per cent of Scotlands GDP."
It seems from the Times analysis Scotland only goes into the red when you add in the 'off the books' cost of PFI where Nu Labour have brilliantly created a system that will cost Scottish taxpayers £30 billion for £5 billion worth of public buildings.
In the meantime the Treasury continues to block the SNP's preferred vehicle for future public buildings (SFT) which is more cost effective and the CBI whinges about SFT because they see their big profit margins on public new builds disappearing along with the associated 20 year PFI cash cow.
Reluctant; you should really be more careful about what you ask for!
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#213, #214 Brownedov & mmarsattacks
Re-Joyce!
The full Newsnight Scotland is here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/search/?q=Newsnight%20Scotland
Watched it today at lunchtime. Major Joyce appears about 1/3 of the way in.
Our Most Expensive MP looks as if he's slept rough for a week ... Evidently, expenses never stretched enough to cover him for a decent shaving kit!
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#212 Greenockboy
So why do you all mob Brian's blogs then - you always say that Brian and the BBC more generally are all against you? In fact you appear to be of the opinion that the the whole media world is against you - I wonder why that would be? FEARDOM
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Brownedov re 215
Just watched the Joyce clip. like watching a slow motion car crash. To think some people voted for him.
Re expenses more about moral compass,
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1194190/Browns-500-expenses-painting-summer-house-flipped-Scottish-home.html
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Oh! for goodness sake!
Eric Joyce and that interview; I've just watched it and it's high comedy! Actually, how can any person with an ounce of sense support and vote for this man; and if he is typical of Scotish Labour politicians, then thank goodness for the Expenses Scandal, as it shows them in a honest light. They really are 3rd clas politicians.
Now, here's a question to all who care about Scotland.
How do we educate the electorate and make them better informed. The reason I ask, is that the majority of ordinary voters will not be watching television programmes such as this, so how do we counter the unbalanced media messages that they are exposed to?
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216. At 2:18pm on 19 Jun 2009, Reluctant-Expat wrote:
"Each day, we witness the nationalist contingent retreat further and further away from reality."
Too blooming true, the reality is a damn nightmare, but not only that the contingent is a rolling stone gathering moss beyond anything your miniscule mind could contemplate. And yes, I'd love some popcorn, coz I can wait to see you writhe some more!!
My post replying to that request on another topic was removed, why? I have no idea but I point blank refused to edit it. Maybe it was because I asked how viciously vocal you'll be when independance comes, from behind you're username. My language maybe wasn't phrased so diplomatically.
Go on hiding behind your manipulated polls (something I wish the nats would do less of actually), its results that count - end of.
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greenockboy
You are getting more effective, he is attacking you with two of his names now. Derek will be along shortly.
Mind you you can never compete with an intellect that can come up with FEARDOM, note the capitals, look do not miss how clever I think I am.
reluctant dose of samonella, this is boy, lad, child and youngster signing off.
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More to be FEARDOM about.
Latest SNP council victory in what used to be Labour heartland.
The SNP has enjoyed a massive 13% swing to the party from Labour in the Inverclyde South West by-election less than two weeks after the SNP won the area in the popular vote for the European elections with the election of Innes Nelson as the new SNP councillor for the seat.
The SNP vote rose from 23% in May 2007 to 42% today a 19% increase in the SNP vote whilst Labour fell back to 23% from 30%.
Commenting on the victory West of Scotland SNP MSP Stuart McMillan, who lives in Inverclyde, said:
"This is an outstanding result for the SNP in an area that used to be seen as one of Labour's strongholds. Along with our victory in Inverclyde at the European elections only two weeks ago this is a further devastating defeat for Labour.
Further proof if any was needed that FEARDOM is really working.
Which American president was it that said you have nothing to FEARDOM but FEARDOM itself?
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"223. At 3:34pm on 19 Jun 2009, salmondella wrote:
#212 Greenockboy
So why do you all mob Brian's blogs then - you always say that Brian and the BBC more generally are all against you? In fact you appear to be of the opinion that the the whole media world is against you - I wonder why that would be? FEARDOM"
As an extremely famous campaigner for social justice said "I like to watch T.V. to keep up with the enemy".
Does that help you understand, or do we need to go back to nursery to join the dots!
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197. At 11:10am on 19 Jun 2009, The_Concept_Of_Mind wrote:
The French Revolution marks the beginning of the modern world (and the end of Monarchy as supreme power); as with the Communist experiment in Russia the reality, as politics took over from idealism, showed perfectly the problems associated with (the lust for) power ... It is both uplifting and incredible that so many posters to these threads imagine that a new regime in Scotland could somehow be different; the sad fact remains that the politician is an animal driven by this lust, and no matter how it is dressed up (for example as Nationalism) it is neverthless the least desirable quality in those who would lead us (whither Plato ???) ...""
Plato...Plato!? He was the man who said that the price of having no interest in politics is to be run by idiots!
I agree with mars's response to you. No need to say more.
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197. At 11:10am on 19 Jun 2009, The_Concept_Of_Mind wrote:
(whither Plato ???) ..."
P.S. to 230 - plato said that 400BC!
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#219 Wansanshoo, excellent post - that is exactly what the Scotland Office's figures were, a "pre-emptive strike" against GERs figures (still an imperfect system) showing Scotland in surplus with oil.
Even in the midst of the biggest downturn since the 1930s, even though Gordon Brown and the Westmonster Parly have mortgaged the country to the hilt, despite the inability to set Scotland's own fiscal policy ... still Scotland is in surplus (showing a total 2.3 billion surplus in the last 3 years).
Bearing in mind the UK budget deficit was some 90 billion last year (2008/9), and is predicted to be 170 billion or higher this (2009/10), I think those figures for Scotland look rather healthy.
It makes it all the clearer why Calman has decided to only footer round the edges now.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2009/apr/22/budget-deficit-record
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Surely the worse line of defence is to try and defend the indefensible!
Eric Joyce the blue plumb in the apple pie, what ever possessed this man to think he had any relation to the labour movement is beyond me.
As far as I know Eric Joyce will be standing down at the next GE!
The people of Falkirk deserve better.
And this was the man Blair thought was a better candidate than Dennis Canavan?.
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231. At 4:18pm on 19 Jun 2009, waitingformyman wrote:
197. At 11:10am on 19 Jun 2009, The_Concept_Of_Mind wrote:
(whither Plato ???) ..."
P.S. to 230 - plato said that 400BC!
***************
Or wiz it the denir plate he invented...hmmmm?
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"232. At 4:25pm on 19 Jun 2009, pattymkirkwood wrote:
It makes it all the clearer why Calman has decided to only footer round the edges now."
Hey patty, come on honestly, did you ever expect anything else? I credit you with more intellengence than someone who actually ever had positive expectations of it. Well I 'spose it is positive from some points of view - Revolting Exprat for example may like it.
It was a ploy as clear as glass from day one.
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/tayside_and_central/8107845.stm
"nuckles in mouth" huhhhhwell I never, what an insult!!
Who to tho?!
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I hear on the radio that the police have decided to get of their bums and start doing some investigation on some of the claims.
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#235, it did indeed confirm my previous expectations. Thats why I wrote: "it makes it all the clearer".
It removed all remaining doubt for me, confirming it is as merely a tactical retreat to the next ditch in the face of a popular SNP Govt ... which we will surely be told shortly is enjoying a remarkable "honeymoon" in its 3rd year!
But I must say, until about a month or so ago, I had a sneaking suspicion that they might have had the collective common sense to offer a fiscal federalism option ... apparently not!
That the Liberals then signed off on it is the biggest surprise; and a real betrayal of their supposed "federalist" stance.
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"Scotland Yard has decided to launch an investigation into the alleged misuse of expenses by a small number of MPs"
Here comes the stage-managed PR whitewash to try to make us believe the police are actually tackling a long-standing, widespread systematic fraud on the taxpayer.
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#237 cynicalHighlander
See my #239. Methinks you ain't nearly "cynical" enough!!
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#224 dubbieside
"Just watched the Joyce clip. like watching a slow motion car crash. To think some people voted for him."
Well said, and let's hope enough in Falkirk view it to make that none next time, if NuLab are stupid enough not to deselect him.
Thanks for the Mail link to Duff Gordon's troughing. I wonder what gets ironed in North Queensferry solely and exclusively on parliamentary business?
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I knew it wouldn't be long before the nationalist version of 'accounting' arrived.
232. pattymkirkwood: "...still Scotland is in surplus (showing a total 2.3 billion surplus in the last 3 years)."
A 4bn+ deficit in 2005/06,
A 3.7bn deficit in 2006/07,
A 3.8bn deficit in 2007/08....add these up and you get a "2.3bn surplus"?
Even if we take the SNP's bizarre version where they just ignore billions in capital spending (ah, that's only about 11.5bn), it's still only just over a billion surplus over the same three years.
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#238 pattymkirkwood
"But I must say, until about a month or so ago, I had a sneaking suspicion that they might have had the collective common sense to offer a fiscal federalism option ... apparently not!"
Personally, I didn't think they would be capable of going that far, but not to go a fair way towards it is dumb indeed.
"That the Liberals then signed off on it is the biggest surprise; and a real betrayal of their supposed "federalist" stance."
Please stop calling the unLib unDems Liberals. They are not. Scott has now definitely proved the victory of the SDP over the former Liberals who merged with them. If they had any shame, they would revert to calling themselves the SDP and be done with it.
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Cabinet expenses in full published by Telegraph
"In the coming weeks the expense claims of every MP, searchable by name and constituency, will be published on this website."
"Happy days"
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The BBC in Scotland still cannot bring themselves to use the word 'Labour' in a headline involving expense scandal's of Scottish Labour MP's.
I'll wait until a fresh blog appears before posting details of Jim Murphy's expenses.
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Has anyone seen the BBC article on the Inverclyde council election where the SNP saw a swing from Labour of 13%?
I only ask because I seem to recall all media outlets making a big play of similar council by-elections that Labour won just before the Euro elections, those elections also saw a swing to the SNP.
The SNP won in Inverclyde by the way.
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#242 Reluctant-Expat
"I knew it wouldn't be long before the nationalist version of 'accounting' arrived."
And I think most of us knew it wouldn't be long before the R-E version attempted to confuse guesstimates with accounts again.
Even HMG don't pretend that the audited Whole of Government Accounts will be available before the general election, and even then they won't be externally audited, but by a stooge appointed by Duff Gordon and will include "regional" splits never formally and openly discussed or agreed between the "home" nations.
Even that strikes me as unlikely given that the previous promises of PFI details by now have been broken. If some miracle results in NuLab winning the general election, I for one will be astonished if the current WGA promise is met. If the Tories win, I'd be even more astonished if it is.
In such a climate, GERS gives us merely the leastworst data we have available, as is made clear on p.11 of the full PDF where it states: "in the absence of unique data for Scotland, GERS estimates appropriate expenditure and revenue using the best available information and best considered apportionment methodologies."
When there are no UK accounts available and when "regional" data is at best estimated, you read too much into the numbers published, just as you did last year.
If you really want public sector accounts for Scotland, I'm afraid you'll have to wait until well after either full fiscal autonomy or independence has been achieved.
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Reporting North Briton are at it again.
Headline nine Scottish MPs pay back expense money.
Three were named, first Mike Weir SNP 37 pounds yes 37 pounds. I did not catch the name of the second MP I was amazed by them highlighting 37 pounds. Third Douglas Alexander 12600 pounds yes 12600, but a claim for 37 pounds is obviously worse in the eyes of Pravda North.
I have no idea what the 37 pounds was for, but Alexander apparently forgot that he was charging someone rent on a house he was claiming allowances for. You can see why this would be an easy mistake to make, everyone has a spare 12 grand kicking about, so easy to miss it.
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Brownedov re 247
you wrote,
If you really want public sector accounts for Scotland, I'm afraid you'll have to wait until well after either full fiscal autonomy or independence has been achieved.
Thats the whole point, he wants proper accounts about as much as Jim Murphy does. If there were proper accounts he would not be able to come on here with his spin. Remember we have had 30 years of this so they have had plenty of practice.
reluctant have you put samonella back in his box for tonight? Are you thinking of another cracker like FEARDOM for him to show his wit and intelligence?
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246. greenockboy asked "Has anyone seen the BBC article on the Inverclyde council election where the SNP saw a swing from Labour of 13%?"
It's in the queue, all their available staff are working on the "missing Glenrothes voting register scandal" at the moment.
Naw only kidding, I meant " all their available staff are working on the Alex Salmond food story"
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#245 greenockboy
"The BBC in Scotland still cannot bring themselves to use the word 'Labour' in a headline involving expense scandal's of Scottish Labour MP's."
True. That's bad enough but in this website's MP defends advice expenses claims about none other than "Britain's most expensive MP", we only find out in the 66th word that he's a Labour MP.
Even if the whip at whose shrine he worshipped was not relevant to the article, I doubt we'd wait that long to know the allegiance of any MP who was not Labour. I bet it's not a record for NuLab, though.
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Yet another attempt to smear Alex Salmond in The Times by Macleod, remember him on the BBC reporting on what was not said at RMQ, yes you guessed it 400 for food.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/scotland/article6530897.ece
Not to many comments, but if you read them yet another attempt that has backfired.
Maybe Macleod will now take a close look at some of labour North British branch MPs. Sorry a pig just flew past my window.
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#249 dubbieside
"Thats the whole point, he wants proper accounts about as much as Jim Murphy does. If there were proper accounts he would not be able to come on here with his spin. Remember we have had 30 years of this so they have had plenty of practice."
You're quite correct, but R-E has much to learn before he's down to Murphy's level.
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greenockboy re 246
Results for Inverclyde.
http://www.inverclyde.gov.uk/GeneralR.aspx?id=1284
This was an area were the SNP were third last time, which makes the win even more remarkable. I wonder why no comment from Gray?
Almost double the Labour vote, who were only just ahead of the Limp Dems.
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#254 dubbieside
"Results for Inverclyde."
Thanks for the link. Out for the rest of the evening but I've downloaded them and will publish some stats tomorrow.
TTFN
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#242,
Lies, damn lies and statistics Expat; and we all know which two of those three categories your contributions regularly fall under.
Posts like that are the reason you are treated as something between a laughing stock and a punch-line ... just like all the major Unionist spokesman in Scotland: Broon, His Darling, "Skeletor" Murphy, Mundell, The Gray man etc ... etc ...
Excuses as lame as "the electrician was Irish and has gone home", "the electrician may have died" are rare, and you should be applauded for consistently producing such nonsense.
Why is it your case is so damaged by the fact Scotland is in surplus and far better placed strategically than the rest of the UK? Why do you (only now) question the GERs figures that you held in such high esteem a matter of years ago?
#243, sorry Brownedov - I had forgotten your particular dislike of THAT term being applied to the Modern Scottish Unionist Party (in Yellow). Seems to me, however, that the modern Lib Dems are not as "progressive" (to use that awful word) as the SDP were ... they are increasingly becoming (in my personal opinion) just another Tory Party: like Labour.
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#242
Presumbaly you know the UK's deficit over the period you refer to. Would you like to give it to us?
Thought not.
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194. At 10:12am on 19 Jun 2009, GrassyKnollington:
Perhaps if you read ALL my posts you will see that I have warmed to the SNP over the past few months, especially in Government.
However, I am against independence at present, for the primary reason that most MSPs are POLITICALLY immature and would probably cause the country more harm. This is obvious by the way most Labour MSPs behave, certainly the Greens (budget issues) and add a certain SNP MSP to the list (MQScots bones). What is needed is another full term of devolved government before full independence is considered. One example is the Forth Bridge, where the project was announced before funding had been secured (I know the background, but look at things high level).
I criticise politicians of any persuasion if I feel they are in the wrong. I've previously stated that any MP who has been claiming unjustifiable expenses should resign as an MP.
Voting wise, while its not any of your business, I'll come clean, if only to stop the blatant accusations thrown at me, lately by derekbarker as well as the usual suspects on the other side. Next GE I'll vote SNP, as I will for the next Holyrood election, since I think they are doing well, and we need a change of Government.
Prior to 1997 I voted Conservative, living in England at the time, but changed that in 1997 since we needed a change of Government. The other reason I voted Labour is due to the difference between constituency MPs/MSPs. Linda Fabiani is invisible and does not respond to letters, or at least not then.
Supporters and activists of any political persuasion have to accept that many people do change their preferences due to current circumstances and performance of Governments. To start slagging off individuals and making false accusations is immature and destroys any reasonable debate.
In fact, you obviously think I am some sort of secret Labour voter. Let's ask derekbarker what he thinks, since he thinks I am in love with the SNP!
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It's not only Labour who have questions to answer on expenses. LibDem soon to be exMP for Argyll Alan Reid has had over £15000 in 2008 for his second home in Argyll, which is in the very southernmost part of the constituency close to his first home in Dunoon.
The purpose of second home allowances is to provide a billet close to Westminster so we dont have to pay extortionate London B&B costs for our MPs. I can't see that a home in Cardross fulfils this purpose at all and I see we are paying hefty B&B costs for Mr Reid as well as his second home allowance. I understand he only spends normally two days a week in Parliament which makes the second home allowance even more unacceptable.
I could make a case for a second home to be situated in Oban or Mull or somewhere else in the north of the huge Argyll constituency but not two homes close together at the southern extremities.
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No one pays any attention to the attention seeking Derek Barker, no one sane that is!
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Further to my #258, political parties rely on people who change their voting preference in order to secure more seats and therefore Government. If every voter stuck to the same votes there would never be any change. The SNP leadership fully understands this, and have successfully managed to convince many voters to support them. They also understand that once they have gained their support, they must then keep them, something Labour has forgotten, assuming that their voters would never change.
Judging from polls in general, perhaps 30-40 percent of all voters are "floating". The SNP have been most successful in grabbing many which if maintained should give them a decent working majority in Holyrood. This will allow them to pursue their policies without hinderance. After say two years, they could then have an independence referendum, and should be able to produce a stronger case, despite opposition from parts of the media. How can a voter believe the media when he/she has experienced a direct benefit from the governance?
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Neil_Small147:
I do agree and disagree that Parliament may not be as mature as it should, but the Parliament handles important matters. It handles much issues that we all consider important, health, education, why are you afraid of the Parliament controlling further powers come independence?
I am disappointed that you may not vote for independence. It would not only damage the SNP but be unable to return to the tables for years, what are you going to do between then and now (assuming the referendum is lost, then you change your mind)? If you feel that the Scottish Parliament may better represent the way you want Scotland to go, then why not vote for independence despite the feeling of Parliament being too young for their own good.
Independence is about the long-term effect for Scotland, and I hope you do decide to vote for whats best for your children rather then yourself.
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#261 Neil_Small147
I share your concern that some people criticise you for not supporting a party right or wrong! You seem to me to be pretty representative of a wide swathe of political opinion, If I get back to regular blogging, I'll try to persuade you that an Independent Scotland would actually allay your fears about the quality of the politicians that operate in Scotland.
First point would be that a capable young man like Douglas Alexander should never have been encouraged to indulge in claiming for a flat he was getting rent for. Corruption seems to have been so endemic at Westminster that someone who could have been advantageous in Scottish politics has been sullied. I've posted before that Lindsay Roy would have been a strength at Holyrood - he's simply meaningless lobby fodder at Westminster.
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Jus heard Andrew Neil on This Week saying: "Scotland - so good they named it once!"
Why do we as a nation have to listen to that sort of insulting put down on the BBC - all the worse for being from someone who claims to be a "proud Scot"?!
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262 & 263
My views on independence do not come from the media, as I have had little respect for the national media following a couple of incidents, which I will not go into. Not a direct affect on me, but the way they behaved.
What concerns me is that the SNP at times seem hell bent on getting independence straight away, and I feel a "No" result in the referendum next year will be more damaging than if they just waited until halfway through a second term. The referendum next year is risky for the SNP, and potentially risky for Alex Salmond in terms of his leadership. If there is a "no" vote, then if he is challenged we might end up with a divided party just before an election. True, it could be as risky waiting, but in my opinion that is less so. If they decided to hold off on a referendum then the opposition might crow for a bit but that will not change overall views on the SNP as a party.
I cannot see the SNP being a minority at Holyrood, and expect them to have a decent working majority. This will - hopefully - produce an effective opposition, and allow good legislation to be passed without interference from Westminster.
A Tory government in Westminster, after a couple of year is more beneficial to the nationalist vote, since there will be cuts to services, like it or not. Labour will still be in disarray and likely to be back to the problems they had before.
So a referendum in 2012/2013 might be a better time, especially since the economy should be in a better position. Much would depend on what powers Westminster would release to Holyrood.
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Neil, why have a conviction for Independence and try to hide it? does that suggest that Independence under the nationalists has an underlying problems for Scotland.
Neil, the holyrood set up means that the SNP will have to do a deal at sometime to carry an out-right majority in the parliament.Neil the SNP party may never be able to govern with a full workable majority unless it drops it's Independence policy or another party like the lib/dems supports Independence.(aka the referendum)
Neil, it's a process and if that process is allowed to continue then, it's probably almost certain that at some point Scotland will have full fiscal control.
Neil, I support the two parted referendum and I would support the democratic outcome whatever it was.As far as who you vote for is your choice but there will always be more questions than answers Neil.
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Ex Pat
'' Each day, we witness the nationalist contingent retreat further and further away from reality.''
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
In nineteen forty five we had one elected MP,Dr Robert Macintyre,sixty two years later we are the elected goverment of the people Scotland.
More and more scots,from different ethnic, cultural and religious backgrounds are casting their vote for our party, recent election results varify this,the swing in favour of nationalism is nothing short of remarkable.
It may bitter to swallow, sometimes reality is.
Wansanshoo
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
It's really great to see how much we all know about Plato (OK, Socrates) and his Political Philosphy ... It almost makes me want to stop complaining about the drop in standards of our Education System; almost ...
My point (in #197) was that there ARE alternatives to Democracy for selecting our Leaders; as an example, Plato's 'Philosopher - King' was imagined to be the most able individual, who was then trained in the skills then seen as necessary to lead (some of which are not relevant today of course) ... At least one of the key point remains that this most able individual was essentially unaligned with any particular dogma - set; the premise being that they would make the 'right' decisions because these would be based on the fullest understanding of the prevailing circumstances ... Alignment with a range of views that form the manifesto of a Party is precisely the opposite approach (ignoring for the moment any arguments about 'natural' view alignment, accepting these have some basis in our evolutionary make-up); clear articulation of a problem is a giant step towards resolving that problem - Party Politics is the (dark) Art of presenting only those parts of a problem/issue that support the Party line ...
The Platonic, singular version of a Meritocracy has many practical difficulties if we try to apply it today; but the set of skills and personal attributes demanded of those leaders - to - be would, if we could see them at play now, make us cry at how badly wrong things have gone ...
Churchill's most oft-quoted comment on Democracy (that is is the worst form of Government except every other form that has been tried - or something similar) is balanced perfectly by his likely least - quoted comment (the biggest argument against Democracy is spending 5 minutes with the average voter - or, again, something similar) ... Experts, please correct me only if I've misunderstood the MEANING of either of these ...
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"MP defends advice expense claim" who? what party? any clue? any inkling from just reading the headline?
"salmond expenses row stepped up", "salmond and tories expenses clash". From these two on the bbc website we can see who they relate. Anyway, he's the first minister, he should be getting a hard time i suppose or at least that's the argument, to busy running a country using only one policy! (sarcasm doesnt work in a blog)
Oh jeezo, i cant stop thinking about joyce on newsnight, i have told everyone about it, it's hilarious, well it would be if he wasn't so well paid for it. "they look nice" quote of the year!! "they look nice". THe red rosette on a wheelie bin, joyce is the living proof!!
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#270 jediirnbru
Which party? Which one do you think! As I'm not back in Scotland until Monday I haven't seen the mood on the street so to speak, but I'd like to think that people are smart enough to think of Labour first when it comes to sleaze in Scotland. After all, there just aren't many Tories...
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Sid # 191
its so true you could weep, could you by any chance lend me 12 grand, I'm a bit skint like !
Ged # 192
your absoloutey right, it'll happen when it happens, although when taking age and successors into consideration, maybe it wont be when we expect !
Grassy #194
Maybe he is mandy !
Lets finish this
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Patty # 256
Nice one
another nail hit on the head !
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Looks like the Scottish arm of the British press will be running puff pieces on Gordon Brown this weekend. The two headlines are from todays Herald.
Brown: I could walk away from all of this tomorrow
Handling pressure? Give me a Scottish hill and I'll run up it
Someone commented that the BBC saw fit to name an SNP MP first in an item about Nine Scottish MP's repaying expense claims. Below is the actual amount claimed by the SNP MP and the reason for the repayment.
SNP MP Mike Weir repaid a £37.08 telephone bill that he noticed he had claimed twice.
Meanwhile, we wait for the headlines on Jim Murphy's claims and any expenses he may have paid back. The BBC will no doubt be preparing the articles now, given their reputation for balance.
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PS to my #255
At Inverclyde SW, the changes in first preferences from 2007 to 2009 were:
Party, 2007, 2009, +/-%
SNP, 23.19%, 42.41%, +82.88%
Lab, 29.76%, 22.61%, -24.01%
LibDem, 23.89%, 20.95%, -12.29%
Con, 4.31%, 7.89%, +83.26%
Other, 18.86%, 6.14%, -67.46%
The increase in the share of the SNP vote is back near Dundee Maryfield levels, where it went up by 88.28%. The Tories can also take some comfort from a similar increase on a very low share. This may indicate that ex-NuLab unionist voters are less frightened of the Tories than they were, although the turnout [2,167 down from 4,157] was so poor that they actually received 8 fewer first preferences this time - perhaps indicating a hardier core vote. The SNP vote actually went up from 919 to 964 first preferences, as did the UKIP vote from 43 to 49 with the same candidate.
In a Westmidden-style plurality vote, the SNP would have had a comfortable 429 majority over Lab, with the LibDems 36 behind in third. That could just be relevent in forthcoming by-elections and the general election.
The distribution of second and subsequent preferences of losing candidates at the various stages was also interesting, and could indicate tactical voting potential.
First to be eliminated was the Free Scotland Party, where the independendent took 5 of the 13 transferable votes, the SNP 4, Labour 2 and the LibDems and UKIP one each.
UKIP were next, and their 36 transferable votes went 11 to the LibDems, 9 SNP, 7 Con, 5 Ind and 2 Lab.
Next was the independendent, with his 46 transferable votes going 17 SNP, 13 Lab, 12 LibDem and 4 Con.
Only 95 out of 182 Tory votes were transferable, but the LibDems benefitted most with 44, SNP 39 (anti-Labour more important than the union, perhaps?) and Lab 12.
An even smaller percentage of Labour votes - 197 out of 519 - were transferable, demonstrating that there are still some diehards out there, with the SNP getting 99 to the LibDems 98.
So in the final stage the result was SNP 1,087, LibDem 620 and Non-Transferable 460.
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#265
Neil is your ass not getting sore sitting on the fence. For many of us independence canny come quick enough. If we keep on putting it off then we'll never get there and I want it see it before I die. If my parents and their generation had shown the conviction I had (as a first time voter) at the 1979 devolution referendum then maybe we would be celebrating a possible 30 years of independence now. We would also be in a financially prettier picture than we are at present. But then again the media did not tell the people the truth then, just like they won't next year if the referendum comes. Come on man have some backbone and go for it - there's no guarantees in life, except death.
#274
Brown: I could walk away from all of this tomorrow
A threat or a promise - hopefully the second.
Handling pressure? Give me a Scottish hill and I'll run up it
And then jump off
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I have just read the BBC's news coverage on the expenses case of the Labour MP, Eric Joyce. The word 'Labour' is used twice in the article in relation to him, the first in the 57th word and and the last later on in the article. It is also used once more in relation to Mr Martin. However the latter is squeezed in between 'the Scottish Government' and 'the Liberal Democrats'.
Now if you look at the BBC's article of the photo airbrushing in Falkirk the word SNP is used 12 times. The first time that the word SNP is used is the first word in the Headline and second word in the Article.
Make what you will on this.
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#256 pattymkirkwood
"Seems to me, however, that the modern Lib Dems are not as "progressive" (to use that awful word) as the SDP were ... they are increasingly becoming (in my personal opinion) just another Tory Party: like Labour."
A fair point. They do still back electoral reform, though, if not keeping their promises, so perhaps it would be more logical to rename them the Democratic Unionist Party or DUP.
That would give us the democratic unionists, Dean's official unionists and Duff Gordon's authoritarian unionists.
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Thirty years ago the media were printing /broadcasting the same contorted truth that we see /hear today, " too weak , too stupid , too poor, too drunk , too unhealthy , too lazy etc etc."
Scotland was a cowed nation because it believed the rubbish spouted.
Happily , the same is not true today and the debacle which is Westminster helps the cause of independence no end.
I have waited a loooong time for my country to say, enough is enough! Time for us to stand , for better or worse on our own two feet. Make our own mistakes and create our own successes. Develop our own non aggressive foreign policies and dispense with WMDS of the leaky variety from our coast.
I am getting old , I want to see that Scotland before I die, I am prepared to wait for 2010 for a referendum , I have waited a long time already after all. I am not prepared to wait for any longer than that.
So Mr Damning-with-faint-praise you will gather I am not in favour of your delaying -ever - so -reasonable tactic!
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#279
Mr Diabolical! a real herd of a reply! mow-ve along.
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#278 Brownedov
How about the Democratic Unionist Party of England and Scotland to differentiate them from the Northern Irish party of that name? ;-)
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#273 neebour - very kind of you to say so.
#278 Brownedov & #281 mmarsattacks,
I am inclined to agree with you both, some sort of wording around the "Democratic Unionist Party" would suit Scotland's un-Liberal un-Democrats down to the ground.
I do like that: Authoritarian (Labour) Unionists, Officially (Tory) Unionists and Democratic (formerly "Liberals") Unionists. People may actually know what they were voting for with those Party names!
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#245 greenockboy
"I'll wait until a fresh blog appears before posting details of Jim Murphy's expenses." &
#274 greenockboy
"Meanwhile, we wait for the headlines on Jim Murphy's claims and any expenses he may have paid back. The BBC will no doubt be preparing the articles now, given their reputation for balance."
Looks like it could be a long wait, unless the supplement the Telegraph are promising gives us the lowdown pretty soon. The estimable Mr Murphy is AWOL from their Cabinet MPs' expenses section and only rates a mention in despatches in their
Full list of Labour MPs investigated by The Telegraph for his £4,884 B&Q bathroom renovation and his Glasgow mortgage interest of £780 per month.
He's also AWOL from Labour's "front bench" in this website's MPs' expenses: Find your MP, while his entry in this website's MPs' expenses: Jim Murphy only includes the blackwashed version.
Re his claim for Christmas cards mentioned in your #123, I can't find anything to add to the £594.55 seemingly first reported in Sky'sGeorge's "Value For Money" Claim, which starts with George Osborne and goes on to list some of the wackier claims.
I wonder what it is about Mr Murphy that makes the media lost interest so easily.
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#281 mmarsattacks
"How about the Democratic Unionist Party of England and Scotland to differentiate them from the Northern Irish party of that name?"
Not a bad idea. Perhaps the "Democratic Unionist Party of England united to Scotland" or Dupeus for short would be even better.
Busy now, but back later, I hope.
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Crash thinks he may be welcome in a classroom situation after all this is over!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8110443.stm
Suppose he could do less damage than in his (now unrealizable) dream-job of heading the IMF or the World Bank.
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Mr Joyce from Falkirk (he certainly deserves no other title!) is demanding an apology now I see, despite having paid 8000 in incidental expenses to "a very close friend".
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/8109947.stm
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Brian
I see on other blogs about these expenses lots of requests for the Queen to disolve Parliament. I am, unfortunately, old enough to remember a wee stushie about a Mr Haigh in the late 40's and the juxtaposition does give a certain resonance to those calls. It might be deserved but a bit drastic!
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Pattymkirkwood Re286
I was struck by a paragraph near the end of this article.
"His comments came as some other Scottish MPs announced they were returning money in an attempt to restore public trust."
I think it is all very well to return money, but what the public (us suckers that pay them) need to look at, what was a genuine mistake, and what was a deliberate attempt to gain money that should not be claimed.
The BBC attempt to lump all the MPs who re payed money together does a disservice to all us taxpayers.
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#287 handclapping
LOL, but what an acid comment! That's the queens english as she is rit these days.
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276. At 09:06am on 20 Jun 2009, fifebirder wrote:
#265
Neil is your ass not getting sore sitting on the fence. For many of us independence canny come quick enough. If we keep on putting it off then we'll never get there and I want it see it before I die. If my parents and their generation had shown the conviction I had (as a first time voter) at the 1979 devolution referendum then maybe we would be celebrating a possible 30 years of independence now. We would also be in a financially prettier picture than we are at present. But then again the media did not tell the people the truth then, just like they won't next year if the referendum comes. Come on man have some backbone and go for it - there's no guarantees in life, except death.
---------------
I still do not think that Scotland is fully ready politically for that change. There are many good MSPs out there, but we still have too much immaturity in some of the motions. On one hand we have a party that is ditching manifesto promises again - free swimming. On the other, we have an opposition that flatly refuses to work with the Government.
The Scottish Parliament is not working very effectively at present. That is due to the SNP being in the unfortunate position of having a minority, and an opposition that refuses to work with the Government msot of the time.
We need a couple of years, if not longer, with a majority to prove what can be done. Certain powers are still not devolved to Scotland, and we have no idea how the Scottish Government will operate with additional powers. When you are dealing with critical issues you need the confidence of the electorate that you can handle them.
The arguments for independence are strong. But many people, while desiring a change, will also be cautious. That is a fact that must be accepted and not dismissed as unionist scaremongering, lack of faith or lack of patriotism. Peoples' lives could be radically changed. Telling people to be brave is rather ineffective and patronising if they might be worse of financially.
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The UK parliament continues to furnish readers of the French press with something of an entertainment. For citizens of the republic of reason yesterday's heavily-censored publication of MPs' expenses claims by the said legislature was a so-called gesture of transparency that was so opaque, in fact, that it contrived to turn what could have been a means of beginning to bring the expenses controversy to an end into a certain means of prolonging it.
In other words, the UK political establishment, which claims to be possessed of centuries of gradually accumulated wisdom, seems to incredulous spectators on the more rational side of the Channel to be demonstrating that it is nothing of the sort, by committing an unconscionably inept 'maladresse' which, like other recent political and constitutional blunders which have attracted the astounded interest of the European mainland, has turned to farce.
If the UK government and legislature are no longer respected, because members of the UK parliament, whether shelved or yet to be shelved, are perceived to be crooks, and not very clever crooks, what may the future hold for the UK constitution, which was already considered to have been knocked off balance by an ill-conceived form of legislative devolution?
In the meantime, what does all of this mean for respect for the law? If citizens cannot respect law-makers, will they not have less respect for the law? Worrying signs are appearing. Wildcat strikes, for example, which are illegal, are returning to blight Blighty. What justification is offered for this? Wildcat strikers are reported to be arguing that, while what they are doing is illegal, so is what MPs have been doing. Who else may now be expected to argue along these lines and in what circumstances?
When government and parliament bring themselves into disrepute and bungle efforts to restore respect for them, something is fundamentally wrong, and the people know it. Trouble is brewing.
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I see NuLabour buzz phrase on repaying expenses is,
I am repaying this as it was "inadvertent errors or for the avoidance of doubt".
As they say in darkest Fife Aye right.
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#291
CORRECTION
Sorry, the UK parliament published MPs' expenses claims not yesterday but on Thursday, of course.
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The best the Times can do today is re-cycle Salmond's pies story while the Westminster bunch squeal 'its no fair, the public should never have been told, so let's fix it so it cannae happen again' while the numpty from Falkirk has the gall to ask for an apology; no Mr Joyce we want an apology from you and all the rest of your venial, Honourable Members ( a clear oxymoron if ever there is one). Trying to play the 'disclosure of information' card just does not cut it.
Society may be to blame Joyce et al but in those famous words: 'you're nicked'! Now let Mr Plod enforce the law impartially, transparently constituency by constituency and not hide behind the MPS and their hired dissemblers.
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But what this imbecile Eric Joyce ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fm20dU5O9MU&feature=channel_page
What planet is this guy on ?
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295.
Go to the related video on the right hand side. Classic stuff. He gets better and better with every viewing.
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@258 Hi Neil, I have read all your posts and I certainly never thought you were a Labour supporter I assumed you were more of a Tory.
The idea that you are warming to the SNP is fantastic.
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#123 greenockboy &
#195 Bandages_For_Konjic
Re the £140,000 spent on legal expenses trying to cover the whole MPs' claims issue up, it's instructive to find, as confirmed in the Herald's"Whole truth? More like an Orwellian truth hole" that this is exactly 10 times the total claimed by the Salmond [his share: £790] and others in legal expenses trying to impeach NuLab over the Iraq war, and which the North British media were making a fuss over a few days ago.
I have no personal doubt which claim would be "accepted" by the public if the facts were fairly presented.
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291. frankly_francophone
You no doubt have a wider knowledge of the European Press than I do, but the reaction of the eleven readers who posted comments yesterday on Le Monde's website about the publication of MPs' expenses were interestingly different from what you suggest. These representatives of your "more rational side of the Channel" thought the revelations indicated our democracy is healthier than theirs, and regretted that French politicians are not held to account in the same way.
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The BBC are definately not biased...
...With the headline "SNP accused of air-brushing queen from photo", the BBC have just won the SNP quite a few new voters *;o)
Keep up the good work BBC!
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everything is becoming clearer by the day.
the fact that our MP's CANNOT even process their expenses without a very large percentage of them making a mistake or inadvertent errors, or simply re-paying, for the avoidance of doubt.
so it should come as no surprise that we find the United Kingdom up to it's neck in the sticky brown stuff .
they can't do their expenses ,what are the chance's that they can run the country????
our political classes have been found out for the donkey's they really are. they are not fit for purpose and all they are doing is looking after no.1 and shafting us ,the general public, while they are doing it.
General election now ,none of this standing down at the next election crap, no golden handshakes get rid of the lot of them now.the fact that some MP's can find 12k plus, at the trop of a hat, a figure that a lot of their constituents need to work dammed hard to earn in a year, shows how bad the situation really is.
Sid
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Interesting that all MP's who 'inadvertantly' made errors regarding their expenses over-claimed...
...are there any MP's who actually forgot to claim for something which they were infact entitled? Surely with all the 'errors' MP's were making with their claims (worryingly they were obviously not to good with finances!), you would expect someone to have piped up by now and put a fresh claim for some missed expenses?
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290. At 12:27pm on 20 Jun 2009, Neil_Small147 wrote:
"I still do not think that Scotland is fully ready politically for that change. There are many good MSPs out there, but we still have too much immaturity in some of the motions. On one hand we have a party that is ditching manifesto promises again - free swimming. On the other, we have an opposition that flatly refuses to work with the Government."
Maturity is gained from experience and only so much experience can be gained in a "training" environment. Nothing better than on the job training. This argument falls flat on it's face when Holyrood and Westminster are compared. Have you seen the immature behaviour and childish motions which permeate those corridors of power? When so many MPs have behaved so appallingly it's a bit ridculous to claim Holyrood needs maturity and by that virue assume anyone attending Westminster is a better politician because they are attending the more powerful assembly
I agree Independence is a huge leap of faith, but there's no reason it won't work here. You cut your cloth to suit your budget and prioritise your needs. I'm more interested in hearing a debate about the pros and cons without all the emotional rubbish thrown in. That includes relative maturities of parliaments because its too subjective.
Whether I would vote for the SNP or Independence reamins to be seen, but I feel I have been wasting my time supporting the Labour Party who persistently appear to care little about representing anyone other than themselves. Mr Devine being a prime example with very able support from his cohorts in Falkirk.
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#302 BoNGO_1
There are some "saints", but what stands out is the disparity in amounts claiming for food. Quite a few MPs claim amounts circa GBP 4,000 per year, yet others like Mark Lazrowicz claimed GBP 245. For most of us our salaries pay for our cost of living!
This whole saga may have a long way to go, because many MPs are claiming 2nd home allowance claims all round the year. Mortgage/rent costs are defensible but food and sundries during the recess are not. I guess you can cut some slack for those who are ministers, but even ministers do go on holidays.
Today's Telegraph has a 64 page magazine detailing all MPs claims, the largest, smallest, most whatever or least whatever etc. But it is a heck of a lot to digest which is another reason why this will rumble on and on.
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#290
I wasn't being patronising, just trying to instill some self-belief. To be honest I would rather be poorer than in a position where I feel that some other nation is making decisions for me. If we were financially worse off it would be through Scottish decisions and we would then be able to put Scottish solutions to rectify any problems. As Spartans11 #303 excellent reply states "You cut your cloth to suit your budget and prioritise your needs". I don't think any other country's citizens have thought "will I be worse off" before grabbing independence when they could.
At least we could set up a parliament where MP's are held accountable and government did not contain unelected members like the Lords etc (which we pay for)in Broon's cabinet. Hopefully future Scottish governments would recognise that we are a wee country with no ambition of being a world power. Just a wee country that tries to contribute to make this planet better and safer. Hopefully future Scottish governments would have no apirations of a UN Security Council seat - and that the remainder of the UK does not continue in that position. Imagine no Scottish troops needlessly killed in illegal wars like Iraq, a war the Scottish public wanted no part in. Scotland could be a country thought well of, by the world for innovation, both in the past and in the future.
It's clever to be cautious at times but there are situations where you have to just go for it. It might not be as we hope but future generations will thank us for going down this last part of the road to independence. Imagine the party on independence day at least!!
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A small measure of how popular the Telegraph was today - they were a complete sellout in all the newsagents in my area by 10:30am (or maybe even earlier).
I wonder if it was the same in Glenrothes or Glasgow? Could this be more accurate litmus test than any polling result?
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#295, amazing. Just when you think it can't get any worse!
180 pounds spent on 3x oil paintings for Mr Joyce's constituency office. His official justification to Newsnight Scotland: "they look quite nice".
Its because of jokers like this and Devine that the electorate need the ability to bring about recall elections.
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303. At 4:12pm on 20 Jun 2009, spartans11:
When I mean maturity, I was covering a few things.
Opposition for starters. Being in opposition does not mean you suddenly decided to stop everything. Opposition is there to put the brakes on some of the more outlandish ideas. The current opposition attacks personalities rather than policies. Bad idea.
The SNP are in their first parliamentary government. They have much experience at council level but this is a different ball game. They are learning, but sometimes the hard way. The Forth Bridge is the example I keep using. No-one ever announces a project without having funding secured one way or the other.
Having said that, there is also a lot of maturity in Government. Reduction in the number of ministers, calmer approach to politics. Good handling of the terrorist attacks.
Incidently, I was in Aberdeen yesterday and I commented on how good the Trump project would be for the region. The response I got is unprintable! It seems that the whole Trump thing has divided the city. Apparently (I don't know if this is true) a farmer is flatly refusing to sell up his land despite substantial offers. Bearing in mind Aberdeen Council is skint, I was rather suprised.
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Hey Neil it's great that you're warming to Trump as well.
At 03:53 PM on 10 Dec 2007,
Neil Small wrote:
I think Alex Salmond has made a critical error of judgement that will come back to haunt him. Why did he not allow his deputy to meet with the Trump delegation? Or is it because there is no one who is effective enough in his Government?
So much for the socialist.....Alex is the same as the rest of the political bunch. had it been jack McConnell in a similar situation, Alex would have been in full voice."
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Picture the scene. It is 1776 in American, instead of 56 signatories the American Declaration of Independence could have 57.
Neil from Scotland said, hey guys we should not be too hasty signing this thing. Remember we have no experience of running a country. I think we should wait until we are a bit more mature.
Well Neil we think this independence thing could be good for us. Just think a grown up country making its own decisions, spending our own money, and keeping our own assets.
Well I am away back to Scotland. If you stayed with England you could all be as rich and successful as Scotland some day. Do not say I did not warn you of the dangers of trying to run your own country before you are ready.
And that is how there were only 56 signatures.
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New ComRes poll for tomorrow's Independent on Sunday on Westminster voting intentions. As usual it's difficult on any subset of a poll to know how accurate it is, since weighting is only done at the GB level.
However, the Scottish data is 24% each for Con, Lab, and SNP : 13% for LibDems: 4% each for UKIP and Greens : 6% for others. Don't get too excited though, the Scottish weighted sample was only 52!
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And just for comparison - the latest ComRes poll with the change since two weeks ago -
SNP 24% (+4%)
Lab 24% (-14%)
Con 24% (+11%)
L-D 13% (-5%)
Green 4% (-1%)
UKIP 4% (+4%)
Others 6% (+2%)
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Guido has made an allegation. Check it out for yourselves, as the Beeb won't allow details.
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I have just watched Gordon Brewer's Major Joyce interview.
Startling would be a fair description of it.
I surmise from it that Joyce doesn't give a stuff. He is probably well set up and entirely relaxed about not being in the next Parliament.
I also note that he seems to have a very high opinion of himself for reasons that are not in any way evident to the rest of us.
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"Now then Sir, would you like to explain yourshelf."
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309. At 6:59pm on 20 Jun 2009, GrassyKnollington:
Well, looking at the project economically, it makes sense. But it has raised quite a few hackles in Aberdeen. Perhaps it is that apparently someone tried to buy Hazlehead Golf Club, and got told to get lost. The land and parks were bequeathed to the City.
At the time of the annoucement, I though Salmond should have used someone else, rather than dive in.
Maybe it's Trump they don't like. Be interesting how he deals with the accent though. (I'm originally from there before the mods get upset).
#312 oldnat
Interesting increase for the Tories. Is that a UK or Scottish poll?
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Bighullabaloo, have you seen Paul Hutcheon re Devine in tomorrows Herald?
Devine also pulled out of a meeting with local councillors on Friday due to "ill-health".
I see my no.7 addition to your list @9 has been employed already!
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#317 Neil_Small147
My #311 should have given you the information! 50 Scots from a UK sample means nothing at all!
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I see oldnat refers to Guido, I wonder if oldnat could make an honest call as to what is deemed beyond thew rules and what maybe considered a matter of further investigation.
Where do you draw the line?.
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Neil_Small147:
#308.
"Incidently, I was in Aberdeen yesterday and I commented on how good the Trump project would be for the region. The response I got is unprintable! It seems that the whole Trump thing has divided the city. Apparently (I don't know if this is true) a farmer is flatly refusing to sell up his land despite substantial offers. Bearing in mind Aberdeen Council is skint, I was rather suprised."
The project is in Aberdeenshire Council. Their finances are not too bad in comparison with Aberceen City Council. However I have never felt that the anti-Trump protesters have actually divided my city, yes my city ;-) They've been a minority group because the vast majority of individuals are simply worried about their own financial stability. It's difficult for the anti-Trump group to refuse the idea while some families struggle and scrape by, but for the long-term I do not see the project providing high flying roles for individuals that pay very well, however at least the project will always be there to provide jobs (assuming golf and tourism remains popular). The selling of houses are a different issue. It's being used by protesters as a way to halt the project, I guess these individuals have all the solutions on what we do after oil? but others are not selling because their property will be worth more once it's built. However Trump has the land needed, the only other land was simply for flexibility but I see no reason why construction can not continue.
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#320 derekbarker
I have previously posted that the MP for Livingstone is to be pitied for being so naive as to believe that any old claim would be accepted and not questioned. At the end of the day, however, the points at which MPs claims move from being understandable to dodgy, is a matter for the electorate. Where they move from being dodgy to criminal is a matter for the authorities.
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from someone on Guido:
- To Err is Human, To Trough is Devine.
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[Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator] The BBC seems to be making light of some expense claims. In reporting about 50 MP's over-claiming on council tax there is, right at the bottom of the article, this piece:
Error
In May, the Labour MP for Stafford, David Kidney, paid back about £2,500 that the Commons authorities mistakenly paid him.
"It's not factually true that I made inflated claims," he said.
"The Fees Office made a series of mistakes leading to me being overpaid and that's why I've had to pay money back. The Fees Office letter is on my website".
The Fees Office letter is at http://www.davidkidney.com/uploads/4bf41b98-5f3d-6234-1902-658a5b1d82e2.pdf
Now, I am just a simple soul, but it seems to me that the apology is for the Fees Office failing to disallow incorrect claims, rather than forcing 2,500 quid upon an honourable member who managed to claim for council tax three times in the course of a month.
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321 Thomas Porter.
Aberdeen City may be in financial difficulty but it is not the local authority where the Trump golf course is being built, it is in Aberdeenshire.
The Shire has massive problems of it's own and may implode at any moment with the Libdums falling apart and a general air of incompetence.
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#322 oldnat
Yes, I don't think anyone would dispute it's a matter for the electorate.
What also seems strange and very incompetent, is that the claims were passed and payed! by the claims office.
I wonder how many people would abuse a bank if it passed cash with such incompetence.
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178gml:
#325.
In my first part of my comment I mention to Neil that the project will be built in Aberdeenshire. Do not pretend that I have suggested anything else, I am from Aberdeen! I know the small details, and yes I understand the local problems in Aberdeenshire. However it's no contest that Aberdeenshire looks in far better in shape rather then Aberdeen City and I will remind you that the SNP are the 2nd largest party at the council so the Liberal Democrats can't be the sole problem.
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Some great comment on football forums
http://www.pieandbovril.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=109486&st=0
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326. At 11:24pm on 20 Jun 2009, derekbarker wrote:
"I wonder how many people would abuse a bank if it passed cash with such incompetence."
Strangely enough that's also illegal derek. It's also quite a bit different going to an ATM and being given more than you asked for by mistake, than submitting claims you're not really entitled to
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At last it has arrived: practically full self-government short of independence, and the national flags of international representatives have already begun flying as the substantially greater degree of self-government voted for overwhelmingly in a referendum a few months ago comes into effect. Guests and dignitaries are flooding in from all corners of the world to salute the newly acquired freedoms of a small but courageous nation which has shown that it has confidence in itself.
The Queen and other members of the royal family as well as the Danish Prime Minister, 17 ambassadors, other foreign guests and more than 70 members of the press have arrived in the capital, Nuuk. Greenland is ready to commence the festivities for Self Government Day, which is being celebrated on its National Day, June 21st. The highlights of the Self Government celebrations will be when the Greenland Self Government Act is presented by Her Majesty Queen Margrethe to the Chairman of the Home Rule Parliament in the Landstingssalen.
Introduction of extensive self governance will see the establishment of government which takes its point of departure in the country and its people. Additional areas of responsibility which will be transferred to Greenland from the Danish government will initially be as follows:
minerals extraction and non-living resources;
immigration;
food and veterinary affairs.
Then, after the Home Rule Government takes office on Friday, the governing coalition will be having a number of matters thoroughly investigated before proceeding further:
a thorough review of Treasury funds;
a thorough review of expenditure required by the Finance Act;
a thorough review of taxes and duties;
a detailed analysis of the entire tax area with the establishment of a tax commission;
an examination of the opportunities to set up an international free-trade port;
a cohesive analysis of the entire social area with adjacent areas;
a thorough study of conditions for those looking for housing and the homeless;
a thorough examination of opportunities to raise the level of Greenlandic self-sufficiency in food;
a thorough analysis of trading sites for fish.
It should be noted that, although Greenland is not being granted independence from Denmark at this juncture, it now has extensive taxation powers, over, for example, oil and gas extraction. Interestingly, it has been given control over immigration. As for independence, the Danish government has undertaken to allow a referendum on that in due course if that is desired.
Spot the differences between all of this and what the Calman Commission is recommending for Scotland, which is, as we know, denied a referendum on independence, and, although possessing extensive oil and gas resources, as does Greenland, is not to be allowed equivalent taxation powers. Any suggestion that Scotland should control anything such as immigration would, of course, be "drivel" or something of that nature.
Poor wee useless Scotland: 5 million souls deemed to be incapable of looking after their own country while a population of Inuits less numerous than the citizens of Edinburgh are handed full control over their extensive natural resources because they asked for it and are told they can have a referendum on independence any time they like. Don't you wish you were an eskimo? You might be better treated and could even rub noses with one another without anybody thinking anything of it.
Meanwhile, Scotland, instead of forging ahead like Greenland, is focused on the various shelving and other pathetically sordid scandals that are plaguing the decadent UK state to which it is attached with a ball and chain. Quite a contrast, isn't it?
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#314 oldnat
Let's hope it's true - about time too. What have they been waiting for, I wonder?
#330 franklyfrancophone
Quite a startling contrast, to be sure.
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330. At 03:21am on 21 Jun 2009, frankly_francophone:
It is a good example where the UK could go to a federalist state. Greenland has a tiny population, and the natural resources, that are ironicly now available due to global warming, are potentially accessible. Because the population is so tiny, they are likely to be economically better off.
The best argument for comparison is that they are doing things in stages, rather than diving straight into full independence.
On political scandals, I see the Australian PM is having some difficulties as well.
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#330 frankly_francophone
Re Greenland, what a contrast in attitudes between the Danish and UK governments, and thank you for providing much more detail than this website's Self-rule introduced in Greenland, which tells us "[b]ut analysts say any push for independence is likely to be put on the backburner by Greenland's new leftist government" and finidhes with "Greenland currently relies heavily on subsidies from the Danish government - which provide 30% of its GDP". Both those statements could have been written by Murphy himself.
It demonstrates too how divisive the BBC policy of removing choice from website visitors may prove to be. Formerly, as some may have noticed, there was a radio button to choose between the domestic and international "home" news pages, which allowed the individual to choose, but now only easily available to the technically minded.
On the domestic version [http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/ukfs_news/hi/default.stm for expats], the Greenland article is currently last in the list of the OTHER TOP STORIES section, doubtless soon to be dropped altogether. On the international version [http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/ifs_news/hi/default.stm for locals], the Greenland article is third in prominence after "US urges Iran to end 'violence'" and "Australia PM escalates car spat".
More than 1,000 posts have now been posted on the "Changes to international pages" threads - latest here - almost universally condemning the change in terms of lack of choice. Here we may be seeing the first news story for which the "separate development" approach serves a political purpose.
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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Neil, what do you mean "Good handling of the terrorist attacks"?
I hope you are not referring to that incident when 2 absolute idiots (ie not very intelligent), drove a bunrning vehicle into some glass doors at Glasgow Airport...
...this was not a serious 'terrorist attack'... it was a comical act of stupidity. If real terrorists (which these fools were not) wanted to undertake a real attack, the result would be that you would understand the contrast which I am alluding to.
To date, there has still not been a single terrorist attack in Scotland (even from the IRA) since Hitler sent his bombers over the Clyde all those years ago.
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#331, #332, #333
For anyone interested, an English-language Greenland government website is at http://uk.nanoq.gl
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Having just re visited Mr Joyce on youtube , I have to say that Mr Devine will not be the only Scottish MP with an " ignoble end "
Please convey my sympathy to Gordon Brewer , there are times when even BBC reporters should be allowed to get violent!
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Thanks Frankly! An excellent website to cheer the hearts of those of an independent nature!
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#337 Diabloandco
It is impressive, isn't it? Enterprising, self-confident and ambitious.
A lesson in how to take one's country into one's own hands and sell its potential to the world.
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As the Sunday Herald suggests that Insp. Knacker will soon be asking Jim Devine to assist him with his enquiries while Eric Joyce selflessly appeared under the fierce light of Gordon Brewer's scrutiny on Newsnight Scotland and made himself a minor hit on YouTube in the process, I thought it might be interesting to examine their respective voting records transparency on the public whip...
Jim Devine MP, Livingston has never voted on the Transparency of Parliament, whilst Eric Joyce MP, Falkirk voted ambiguously on the Transparency of Parliament.
Both were absent for all votes up to and including 18 May 2007, but from then on their paths have diverged. Devine continued his McAvityesque absence, while Joyce [perhaps to justify some of his vast travelling expenses] entered the fray. On 3 July 2008, he voted againstExternal audits of and no more furniture in MPs' allowances [there's a shock!]. By 30 April 2009, however, he was a convinced "transparent" and voted for both motions on Full and complete registration of MPs' financial interests and No lower limit for declaration of MPs' expenses.
As an aside, the Herald article has a lovely quote from a Labour source saying that "I can't see us holding the seat at a by-election, or a general election". Devine's seat, of course, is Livingston, held by Robin Cook in 2005 with 51.10% of the vote and by Devine in a by-election with just 41.79% of it - both times with the SNP second and now needing only a 4.55% to take the seat. How the mighty are falling, I suspect.
PS; Two cheers for BBC World News who have just run a snippet on Greenland's self-determination.
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I could find no way of wishing them well during their celebration, so I will do it here!
From the site,
The highlights of the celebrations of Self Government will be when the Greenland Self Government Act is presented by Her Majesty Queen Margrethe to the Chairman of the Home Rule Parliament in the Landstingssalen.
Thirty years ago Her Majesty presented the Greenland Home Rule Act.
All the events will be transmitted live on the Greenland national television channel, KNR-TV.
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As my previous attempt seems to have been referred for jocularity, I'll try again confining myself to facts.
As the Sunday Herald reports the Sunlight Centre for Open Politics press release which confirms that "[t]hey have written to the Metropolitan Police asking them to include Livingstone MP Jim Devine to the list of members they are focusing on", while Eric Joyce selflessly appeared under the fierce light of Gordon Brewer's scrutiny on Newsnight Scotland and made himself a minor hit on YouTube in the process, I thought it might be interesting to examine their respective voting records re transparency on the public whip...
Jim Devine MP, Livingston has never voted on the Transparency of Parliament, whilst Eric Joyce MP, Falkirk voted ambiguously on the Transparency of Parliament.
Both were absent for all votes up to and including 18 May 2007, but from then on their paths have diverged. Devine continued his McAvityesque absence, while Joyce [perhaps to justify some of his vast travelling expenses] entered the fray. On 3 July 2008, he voted againstExternal audits of and no more furniture in MPs' allowances [there's a shock!]. By 30 April 2009, however, he was a convinced "transparent" and voted for both motions on Full and complete registration of MPs' financial interests and No lower limit for declaration of MPs' expenses.
As an aside, the Herald article has a lovely quote from a Labour source saying that "I can't see us holding the seat at a by-election, or a general election". Devine's seat, of course, is Livingston, held by Robin Cook in 2005 with 51.10% of the vote and by Devine in a by-election with just 41.79% of it - both times with the SNP second and now needing only a 4.55% to take the seat. How the mighty are falling, I suspect.
PS; Two cheers for BBC World News who have just run a snippet on Greenland's self-determination.
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334. At 09:43am on 21 Jun 2009, BoNG0_1:
I suggest you carry out some research on anti-terrorism and terrorism before slapping down a comment.
The Glasgow incident was far more dangerous than you seem to appreciate. The terrorist's messed up, but they were not that far off causing a major outrage. Pressurised gas, when it explodes, is very destructive. Military weapons include fuel-air items which in an enclosed area magnifies the effect.
As for handling, I was discussing the political handling. It is very, very easy to overreact and go into panic mode. That is why when there is a major incident, the police take control, including domestic terror attacks on military bases.
These were not "idiots". They were very intelligent, and more dangerously highly motivated individuals who were prepared to die. Too many people seem to think that terrorists are easy to deal with. Not when they do not care about their own lives.
At the time, this followed the abortive attempt in England. No one knew if there would be a third strike elsewhere. It was serious.
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In referring my last two posts, somebody seems particularly concerned that the latest facts concerning NuLab MP, Mr Jim Devine do not appear on the BBC website. Given that he is the actual subject of this thread, I would have thought they would be both on-topic and relevant to it, so I'll try again but in parts and without "pretty" hyperlinks.
Perhaps the Sunday Herald's main political story confirming the Guido story oldnat mentioned yesterday is considered conjecture, but it is a fect that The Sunlight Centre for Open Politics [http://www.sunlight-cops.org.uk/] has submitted evidence now displayed by The Committee on Standards in Public Life [http://www.public-standards.gov.uk/OurWork/MPs__Expenses___Evidence.html] and that they have now published their letter to Janet Williams of the Economic and Specialist Crime Command at New Scotland Yard concerning Mr Devine.
We were told previously that NuLab's "Star Chamber" was asked to investigate Mr Devine, and it is surely on-topic and relevant that others are being asked to do the same.
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Part 2 of my second attempt to sanitise my 2 previous "referred" posts to the satisfaction of the mods.
With both Livingstone MP Jim Devine and Falkirk MP Eric Joyce in the news on this website for similar reasons, it must be interesting to examine their respective voting records re transparency on the public whip...
Jim Devine MP, Livingston has never voted on the Transparency of Parliament, whilst Eric Joyce MP, Falkirk voted ambiguously on the Transparency of Parliament.
Both were absent for all votes up to and including 18 May 2007, but from then on their paths have diverged. Devine continued his persistent absence, while Joyce [perhaps to justify some of his travelling expenses] entered the fray. On 3 July 2008, he voted againstExternal audits of and no more furniture in MPs' allowances [there's a shock!]. By 30 April 2009, however, he was a convinced "transparent" and voted for both motions on Full and complete registration of MPs' financial interests and No lower limit for declaration of MPs' expenses.
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Part 3 of my second attempt to sanitise my 2 previous "referred" posts to the satisfaction of the mods.
Regarding Mr Devine, the main Sunday Herald news article [for link see this website's What the Scottish papers say on the main Scotland page] on that honourable member has a lovely quote from a Labour source saying that "I can't see us holding the seat at a by-election, or a general election". Devine's seat, of course, is Livingston, held by Robin Cook in 2005 with 51.10% of the vote and by Devine in a by-election with just 41.79% of it - both times with the SNP second and now needing only a 4.55% swing to take the seat. How the mighty are falling, I suspect.
PS: Two cheers for BBC World News who are now running a snippet on Greenland's self-determination in their main news sequence. I wonder when they'll start doing that for self-determination of the "home" nations of the UK?
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342. At 1:09pm on 21 Jun 2009, Neil_Small1
aahh, naw, are you still here.
God your hard work min.
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304. At 4:33pm on 20 Jun 2009, excellentcatblogger wrote:
For most of us our salaries pay for our cost of living!"
Yes, yes, yes, it has quite simply got to come to that for them too!!!
Even MSPs!
OK, pay for travel expenses "X"PPM, or a train/plain/bus ticket, a set daily allowance for food, etc. Just like US!!!
Then the people who "apply" for these jobs can be more trusted to be there for genuine unselfish reasons, other than the need to earn a living and contribute to society.
If its trappings and servants they want, "get them up against the wall" hypothetically speaking of course, mods!
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24. At 4:26pm on 17 Jun 2009, derekbarker wrote:
I'd like to talk about whether a politicians job is a "career" or a labor of love.
I take the stance that there are to many career head hunters in today's political spectrum and not enough principled dedicated political minded people."
Geewhiz, whats with this man now, have you taken a chill pill or something lately.
Too late, you lost the right to talk about anything long ago. (In my very humble oppinion, mods)
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332. At 09:22am on 21 Jun 2009, Neil_Small147 wrote:
330. At 03:21am on 21 Jun 2009, frankly_francophone:
It is a good example where the UK could go to a federalist state. Greenland has a tiny population, and the natural resources, that are ironicly now available due to global warming, are potentially accessible. Because the population is so tiny, they are likely to be economically better off.
The best argument for comparison is that they are doing things in stages, rather than diving straight into full independence."
And just how many more hundred years do you think we should spend dipping our toes into the water. "DIVING STRAIGHT IN" my (expletive not entered;)!.
You really are a total one, take aff the blinkers man!
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346, 348 & 349. At 2:41pm on 21 Jun 2009, waitingformyman:
Apart from 347, when are you going to contribute something constructive to the blog rather than insulting everyone?
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Comparisons with virtually any other separation situation are close to uselsss; our circumstances are unique (doh again) in all respects that matter ... Just as in those old ethical dilemmas, where ever increasingly tortured attempts were made to balance the outcomes (what if THREE hundred would certainly die if you flick the switch to save the child/serial killer/wife ??? ...), the effort expended to compare us to Norway/Iceland/Ireland/a-small-and-once-prosperous-and-close-to-us-place just emphasises how different we are, and how subject to the vagaries of historical contingence ...
As someone said a while back, you can't step into the same river twice; for us this means accepting that our economic, cultural and constitutional histories are just that - histories - and that the waters ahead are, for US, inevitably, uncharted ... There is no right or wrong, only (if we're lucky and whatever happens turns out not-too-bad) the chance to learn ...
Greenland is largely uninhabited (and uninhabitable); no matter how cuddly the Innuit may appear, and how rich in Natural ResZZZZzzz ... Sorry, another narcoleptic episode brought on by typing a tiresome phrase ... Anyway, it is simply stretching things far beyond their elastic limit to try to imply that we are in ANY way in a similar situation ... What next, Armenia ??? ...
Imagining an Arc of Prosperity shows a Spark of Pomposity but little Grasp of Reality ...
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#351 The_Concept_Of_Mind
In a post in a previous blog you wrote: "I speak with no hint of bias towards any outcome of the (political settlement for Scotland) debate."
Now you write: "Imagining an Arc of Prosperity shows a Spark of Pomposity but little Grasp of Reality ..."
Your own "grasp of reality" is engendering in you the false impression that other people can't recognise a biased anti-SNP statement when they read one.
Please readjust your "grasp of reality" to factor in a little respect for other people's intelligence.
Thank you.
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Just listened to the World This Weekend on Radio 4, where they ran an item on Martin's, the ex Speakers, constituency.
Extremely informative; it's still there to listen to on the iPlayer.
Nice to see the BBC doing some balanced reporting. I wonder whether the Radio 4 journalists liaise with their BBC colleagues in Glasgow? The statistics on the local economy, school closures etc are painful to hear.
I'm ashamed that my fellow Scots, i.e. those in the Labour party, have allowed such situations to arise in their own country. Disgraceful!
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Was anyone else waiting with bated breath for Brian's braces to snap in that clip from his forthcoming devolution documentary? I couldn't take my eyes off them. I have no idea what he said.
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The_Concept_of_Mind
"Natural ResZZZZzzz ... Sorry, another narcoleptic episode "
If you are having trouble staying awake while you are writing it, think how the rest of us feel reading it.
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Further to my #330, #335 and #338, a translation of Premier Kuupik Kleist's address delivered this morning on the inauguration of the present phase of Greenland autonomy can be found at
http://uk.nanoq.gl/sitecore/content/Websites/uk,-d-,nanoq/Emner/Government/~/media/332E97D7FC7E4CF5ACC97C112AEFA371.ashx
To give you a flavour of it:
"Today sees the start of a new era in the history of our country. On this important and auspicious day we cannot help but be moved as we look back at developments in Greenland as a society. It is as if we have woken up to newly fallen snow in which we are to set the first footprints for those who come after us to follow. (...)
"Let us hope that today, the longest day of the year, and the day on which we celebrate the dawn of Self Governance, will bring us strength with its light. We are entering Self Governance with an inner candescence, and I hope that the path we move down will always be bathed in light."
A poetic politician! There's a novelty. Two lights: the light of the longest day of the year (which is the national day) blending with an inner light radiating throughout society from person to person in the inter-connectivity of the Greenland way and illuminating the path ahead towards independence (Mr Kleist being an independentist). Rather good, don't you think? It has a certain resonance.
One cannot get away with expressing oneself like that in UK Scotland, of course. There is already an anglo-unionist on his way to call it "drivel", or something of that nature. So back to the grim reality of Blighty and all that mundane shelving.
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356. Rather good indeed. I hear Brian's partial to a bit of poetry but maybe not stuff about the glowing dawn of independence....
Has everyone seen Kevin Mackenna's defence of Michael Martin in today's Observer?
The comments descended into the usual Jock baiting nonsense but one commenter (lefteast) surpassed himself with this gem
"As far as I am concerned, the way Scotland has behaved in the last few years, its naked hostility to anything non Scottish, It's ingratitude to England for giving Scotland full rights in English society irrespective of Scottishness and the sheer abuse of power the Scots have perpetrated against England, confirms in my mind that with friends like these WHO NEEDS ENEMIES???????????"
irrespective of Scottishness ..... :O)
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MPs' expenses: Jim Murphy
Additional Cost Allowance 2004-05 - 13 months in a year? 2 claims for the month of May and claimed for food at or near max for EVERY month of the year even on vacation! Hope he sleeps well with his butterfly curtains and bedset.
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The main story on this website's Scotland politics is currently MPs 'disingenuous' over expenses, which is unusual in not naming a single political party but effectively declares a plague on all your houses with Mr Dunion's: "A year ago, parliamentarians in Westminster voted for this information not only to be blacked out from their receipts but to be taken outside the scope of freedom of information altogether".
What it fails to mention of course is that the vast majority of politicians so voting were NuLab ones (148 out of 171) while the vast majority of those voting against were not (93 out of 143). The figures for MPs representing Scottish seats are also pretty stark: 18 voted for (all NuLab) while 12 voted against (5 of them NuLab).
The 18 for were: Adam Ingram, Anne McGuire, Anne Moffat, Brian H Donohoe, David Hamilton, Eric Joyce, Gavin Strang, Gordon Banks, Ian Davidson, James McGovern, Jim Sheridan, Jimmy Hood, John Robertson, Michael Connarty, Rosemary McKenna, Sandra Osborne, Thomas McAvoy and Tom Clarke
The 12 against were: Alan Reid, Alistair Carmichael, Anne Begg, Danny Alexander, Des Browne, Jim Murphy (astonishingly!), Katy Clark, Malcolm Bruce, Mark Lazarowicz, Michael Weir, Robert Smith and Stewart Hosie.
Devine, of course, was amongst those absent - some of whom may perhaps have had valid reasons.
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An interesting Guardian article about the dilemma facing English voters
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/jun/21/labour-voting-tories-threat
"Labour may deserve to lose but the country doesn't deserve the Tories"
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#357 GrassyKnollington
Thanks for the Observer link. I agree that the comments are OTT, but the article itself encourages just that with its uncritical praise of the man and the claim that he served his country (which one, I wonder?) with distinction. I certainly cannot agree with the closing suggestion that NuLab may be punished in the by-election for "allowing one of their own to twist in the wind before a pack of Tory hyenas". If they're punished, as I hope they will be, it will be because the man cared less for his constituents than for himself.
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#360 oldnat
As you say, an interesting article, and like so many from the NuLab side almost entirely negative rather than positive.
I suspect that to the English electorate the closing "[s]o long as those are the only viable options disaffection will be the only viable outcome" is the key problem. That will surely be less of a problem in Scotland, although the turnout is likely to be low as many ex-Labour voters stay at home unable to allow themselves to vote for any other party.
Busy day tomorrow, so an early night is called for. TTFN
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I see Margaret Beckett is favourite to become the new Speaker according to the BBC.
Anyone care to comment?
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#363 Neil_Small147
New Speaker for the Commons - "Anyone care to comment?" Not particularly.
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#352 bighullabaloo ... I have the greatest respect for intelligence and the least for ill - informed, and poorly formed, opinion ... My comment on the Arc is about the concept, not the individual or Party that expressed it ... I am equally ill - disposed to all Parties, holding that they encourage Herd behaviour at the expense of independent analysis and view - forming ... Having said that, I apologise if you feel your intelligence has been insulted; hopefully you can accept that that wasn't my intention ... Sometimes a note of levity (in a serious debate on important matters) can be in the wrong key ... And having said THAT, I stand by my comment; attempting to create the impression that, just because several small, nearby, independent Countries have (for wildly different reasons) done varyingly well over the recent past, we will too, is an exercise in deceipt (spin) that doesn't doesn't stand the most basic scrutiny ... But I repeat; the others are no better in the spin department - indeed far worse in relation to the current rcandals ...
Thank YOU ...
#355 snowthistle ... I feel I have been entirely fair in warning erstwhile readers (or 'sufferers' as I have called them) of the potentially soporific effects of straying into my posts (ouch); I really do sympathise ...
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Neil # 308
I have to say I think you have a point about the timing of the election or any referendum, dont get me wrong, I still think we should go for it now as what I worry about is the undermining, the lies, the deciet and the complete removal of civil rights that will come into effect during this period. And believe you me, it will happen ! Lets not even get into the media.
This is the british state we're taking about here folks !
I also believe that our government knew what the brits would say to the proposed new Forth Bridge, I actually think it was a very smart way of making a point - in the public eye!
Frankly # 330 Thank you so much for that post, says it all really !
Bongo # 334 You're so right, there has never been to my knowledge, and I studied modern European history, any terrorist attack on us.
Two things though
First uk civilial killed by an air attack, Orkney, I believe it was in Deerness.
First German plane shot down over the uk, just outside Edinburgh, as it was trying to bomb the Forth Rail Bridge ironically !
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
GrassyKnollington:
#357.
I searched through reading those comments, I was suprised by the amount of posters claiming not to be anti-Scottish, but also claiming that Scots have destroyed the country, been in power for too long and little England has been forced to subsidise Scotland all at the same time.
If Scotland and Scots are not the problem, why highlight the facts we are Scots?
However the comments are amusing. For a moment I realised the ills of Britain have been caused by the Scots who have dominated the halls of powers. I almost forgot that Westminister has more English MPs then Scots, Welsh and Irish MPs put together. But I do not see why providing facts and looking at the picture as a whole should get in the way of a good rant!
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GrassyKnollington,
I decided to continue reading through the comments, I am having such a good time at the moment.
If everyone has a look on page 6, you'll see a large comment by someone who wants to point out that the SNP want to use Braveheart in education, how England saved Scotland through the Acts of Union, Scots can not handle their financial affairs so England does it for us and has used Darien scheme and the collapse of HBOS and RBS as evidence...
If you read further apparently Scots were willing to forge Great Britain in order for one common identity to be formed... (from another poster)
I wish ignorance were a criminal offence.
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#368 Thomas_Porter -
I also find these comments amusing - particularly the virulent strain that was rife during the onset of the financial 'crisis'- i.e. that the downturn was simply the culmination of a 'Grand Plan' hatched by Gordon Brown and a shadowy cabal of England-hating scotsmen to bring the United Kingdom to its knees.
All of which conveniently ignores the fact that few people have more to lose from the 'fall' of the United Kingdom than the honourable member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath.
But it does inspire some marvellous mental images - Gordon Brown, on accession to Number Ten, white cat on knee, cackling to himself; "Now, at last, I will be able to carry out my master plan and BRING DOON the UNITED KINGDOM! Hah hah haaaah!"
On top of which, in some respects, it's rather flattering . . . at least it suggests Brown has/had a plan and isn't/wasn't just desperately reacting to events at every turn.
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To digress ever so slightly. Does anybody here know anybody that watches Formula One racing? I don't watch it and I don't know anyone who does. I couldn't care less who wins what in this particular line of aimless endeavour and I bet the vast majority of the population are with me on that. We get endless hours of it yet we can't even get to watch our own footballers on BBC.
Jim Devine will shortly have lots of time to watch it I suspect however (pathetic attempt to justify this particular rant on this particular topic)
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#365 The_Concept_Of_Mind
"I am equally ill - disposed to all Parties"
Prove it.
Provide a comment that just as clearly criticises a policy of the Labour Party in Scotland.
Let's see if you are telling the truth.
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#371, I love watching the F1 *;o)
Endless hours of F1? It is only on for a few hours every fortnight for about 16 weeks of the year... hardly endless, not compared to all the brain numbing soap operas & talk shows which take up 20% of the total air time.
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I see that BBC Scotland have decided that yet another Holyrood committee statement is the biggest political news item in Scotland.
I assume that they are still unaware of the very newsworthy expenses of one Jim Murphy.
Flipping homes, renovation work, private accountant fees and a fondness for the petty cash claim system. The last one is probably the most blatant example of 'trough snuffling' there is. Simply ask for up to 250 pounds any month and it's yours.
Murphy's phone bills are eye catching, a monthly bill BT regularly in excess of 600 pounds. He also bills the taxpayer for his O2 mobile costs at over 20 pounds a month.
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Re #351 The_Concept_of_Mind
Yes, seems like a lot of words to say very little:
Just because it has worked elsewhere on several occasions, that's no guarantee that it'll work here.
Fair enough, it's a valid viewpoint, but what is lacking is any view on how we should decide whether independence is something we should embrace and foster or something we should shun.
What do you suggest? should we check to see whether we would be financially strong enough - er well, that would be a good idea, if only we had the information, but unfortunately the UK government does not make it available.
So come on, enlighten us all, or we may come to suspect that you are just trying to use that old unionist tactic of spreading fear .........
P.S. try to be a little more concise, it saves me having to wade through the verbal treacle of your sense of intellectual superiority.
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361. Brownedov, quite agree about Mackenna. His concentration on Martin's Scottishness instead of his incompetence was an invitation for just the sort of comments he got. In fact I suspect he encouraged them with his stereotyping of "braying English MP's" .
368 Thomas, they are compelling reading I aren't they? The level of ignorance about politics in Scotland is quite staggering but unfortunately is no bar to people sounding of about the parasitic and ungrateful Republic of Jockistan.
I think the Labour "subsidy junkie" message which was intended for Scottish consumption has spread way beyond it's intended home audience and the lies have been seized on down South with more eagerness than even the Scottish media showed!
The law of unintended consequences.....
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350. At 2:51pm on 21 Jun 2009, Neil_Smallone wrote:
346, 348 & 349. At 2:41pm on 21 Jun 2009, waitingformyman:
Apart from 347, when are you going to contribute something constructive to the blog rather than insulting everyone?"
aah, naw, yes you are still here!
Not everyone, just a small minority, why would you suggest "everyone"? You wouldn't feel lonely or anything, would you?
The fact is, you are the equivilent of a "man short" from whatever direction "we" view things. No side would realistically touch you with a barge pole as you display no idea of whether you are coming or going.
You wouldn't be waiting for a certain operation or something like that would you?
I noticed you were asking if anyone cared to comment on Margaret Bucket becoming speaker, my comment is, in my oppinion (mods, I do hope I have the right to express it) she is a fraudster. Restore faith in parliament my ?? What faith would that ever have been in the first place?! Restore the "Lack of Faith" would be more apropriate.
As far as I'm concerned fencing people like you (I won't mention how I'd describe the collective incase it makes someone cry) is a far bigger contribution than all the neither here nor there nonsense you write. The best contribution you can make is to install doubt and uncertainty.
In many ways you are far more damaging than DBarking and REXprat!
"DIVING STRAIGHT INTO INDEPENDENCE" Indeed!!
God you make me.....rushing to the toilet now.
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371. At 11:40am on 22 Jun 2009, sneckedagain wrote:
F1?
Jeez! Yeah, I know quite a few die hards that are hooked on it like a housewife on amphetemines is to soaps. Also the motorcycle equivelent.
Its better than cricket being beamed into out heeds, but not my thing really either.
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"A host's job is to encourage interesting discussions and to help resolve disagreements. They post regularly on the message boards, start discussions or reply to questions. Hosts do not remove messages from the boards."
Just noticed this on the house rules, while searching for a reason as to why one of my posts was refered, just in case it actually mentioned what it specifically was that caused the reference in the first place...as if!
Any way take note of what the hosts regularly do. Has anyone ever had a reply from Brian Taylor, could you provide a link?
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#363 Neil_Small147
You might like this Speaker's Ballot Paper (from Tom Harris)
[Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]
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308 neelsma1
"Incidently, I was in Aberdeen yesterday and I commented on how good the Trump project would be for the region. The response I got is unprintable! It seems that the whole Trump thing has divided the city. Apparently (I don't know if this is true) a farmer is flatly refusing to sell up his land despite substantial offers. Bearing in mind Aberdeen Council is skint, I was rather suprised.
************************************************
This just shows how illinformed you are man. The farmers land, other people's homes, that he wants them to leave peacfully from (because he's changed his plans "slightly")and this Trummped up esatae is in Aberdeenshire! The substantial offer you mention was based on current house prices too! Now the "SHIRE" council are bandying about the idea of compulsory buying powers for this mans Pipe dream. Yeah definately, you fit the bill of welcoming the likes of that.
One thing I can never forgive the SNP for I'm afraid. I was quite surprised they actually stuck their neck out for that because it is by no means the most popular thing in the area, despite how many positive spins are put on it by "business leaders" in the rag known as the evening depressed.
He's starting to stand all over the little people already, just wait big boys, you WILL be next and I hope you get what you wished for. hahaheh!
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sorry for hogging a few posts, posters, its lunch time...?and its raining.
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Iain Dale has the ballot paper as well.
http://iaindale.blogspot.com/2009/06/margaret-becketts-shoe-in.html
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#376 GrassyKnollington
"Brownedov, quite agree about Mackenna. His concentration on Martin's Scottishness instead of his incompetence was an invitation for just the sort of comments he got. In fact I suspect he encouraged them with his stereotyping of "braying English MP's"."
The real pity is that if instead of mouthing off these stupidities they'd back a party that stands up for home rule for England, they'd be doing both the SNP and Plaid [I've seen plenty of similar anti-Welsh nonsense in my time] for them.
Re Martin, I've seen at the bottom of this website's Ten MPs competing to be Speaker that: "Martin formally stepped down as an MP, paving the way for a by-election in his constituency of Glasgow North East ... The Treasury announced that he had been appointed Steward and Bailiff of the Manor of Northstead"
That wouldn't have needed to happen if Duff Gordon had made him a Lord straightaway - so much for last week's puffs at PMQs, and perhaps postponed forever if there is anything but bluster in his "constitutional reform" wheeze.
As the SNP have already broken with convention by standing against Martin last time [mentioned again on the Today programme this morning], does anyone know if they plan to go further and call the writ for the by-election as soon as whoever is elected Speaker takes the chair? I can see no reason at all why they should wait for NuLab to do it - it hasn't been a NuLab seat for a decade. Logically, the new Speaker should do it him or herself as he represented the "Speakers" party, but I doubt any of the candidates will break with tradition to that extent.
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365. At 01:05am on 22 Jun 2009, The_Concept_Of_A_BrokenMind wrote:
#355 snowthistle ... I feel I have been entirely fair in warning erstwhile readers (or 'sufferers' as I have called them) of the potentially soporific effects of straying into my posts (ouch); I really do sympathise ..."
Oh aye, and just what effects might that be?
Just wait till this "sufferer" tares your "ill thought out oppinions" to shreds!
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I posted a facetious remark about Formula One racing on TV trying to identify whether anybody actually watched it and rounded it up with suggstion that Jim Devine might soon have plenty of time to do just that. It has been removed presumably on the grounds that it had nothing to do with the topic. What then is the reason for a stream of posts about Trump's golf course which have nothing to do with the topic either remaining on the board - apart of course from the fact that they attack the SNP?
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PS to my #384
Oooops! I meant to write: ... they'd be doing both the SNP and Plaid [...] jobs for them ...
There's a new reference [Michael Martin stands down as MP] to Martin on the main Scotland politics page, with nothing new except for the Steward and Bailiff of the Manor of Northstead bit, but it does of course mean that both Devine and Joyce have now slipped below the radar again, meaning that nothing at all giving NuLab bad vibrations needs get in the way of the latest Labour calls for ... campaign. Words don't quite fail me, but printable ones do just now.
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/8113228.stm
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The only people who have any right to be displeased with Jack McConnells, Trump golf course are the locals of Aberdeenshire and from what I read at the time in the Press and Journal , folk were quite pleased for it to go ahead , apart from the chap with the dishevelled farm and a couple of tree huggers.
It has NOTHING to do with Aberdeen Skint Mis- managed Council.Mismanaged for many years and not by an SNP council.
Having strayed on to my home town , does anyone have an up date on the by pass and Nicol The Nose?
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Speaking as an upfront Nationlist/democratically believing individual for many years, I am becoming increasingly worried at the amount of potentially "sectarian" termed langauge being used on this blog.
We need to remember that this is not an anti-english issue, this is the british state we are taking about.
A lot of England suffers as well and we need to be careful that we dont fall for the old brit trick of divide and conquer,which worked extremely well in empire days.
We are attempting to re-form a new independent European democrocy, we cannot afford to go down this road.
I know we have all been ripped off for years, some even discriminated against and have been denied a true voice for generations, and many of us are very angry, but please temper this anger - keep your powder dry folks, we will soon desperatly need even last bit when the moment comes, and it is coming !!
Anyone remember internment not so far from here a few years ago ?
The "known unionists" on this site, to my mind, have being trying to turn the argument round to this way of thinking - but we are better than that !
We need to show our international friends that we are responsible, otherwise when the tanks once again roll down Sauchiehall Street - ie 1919, they will only support us because we can prove we are a sound people with genuine beliefs that can be applauded across the globe. And also make a positive contribution to the world community.
This is the chance of a lifetime, certainly my last one, whatever is said by these people, ca canny, we really cant afford to lose this opportunity. We will get there, maybe faster than some expect, but thats when the british state really starts throwing about the nasty stuff !
Keep going, but tread carefully !
concept # 351
Glasgow was the industrial heart of the world in 1900 - mmmm, really good investment plans eh ?
Unihabited ? We have the biggest land mass of unpopulated areas in Western Europe, mmmm wonder why/how that happened ?
Please stop pontificating with big words and get real !
Lets finish this
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Yee hah!!!
The first comment I've ever had removed. I have come of age.
I was merely pointing out that some of Greenockboys' predictions are coming true re swine flu.
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#392 snowthistle
Then now you know the awful truth: The BBC detests people exposing how their deeply-ingrained anti-SNP bias makes their choice of "impartial" news stories so very predictable.
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386. At 3:51pm on 22 Jun 2009, sneckedagain wrote:
Hey sneck, if you were referring to my rant about SNP and trump, just because I support and vote for them does not mean I have to be happy with everything, I was responding to a post from our wee neil from way back on this thread.
390. At 4:31pm on 22 Jun 2009, neebour wrote:
We need to show our international friends that we are responsible, otherwise when the tanks once again roll down Sauchiehall Street - ie 1919, they will only support us because we can prove we are a sound people with genuine beliefs that can be applauded across the globe. And also make a positive contribution to the world community."
Hi neebor, I fully understand your point of view and respect it, I'm just more of the "why the hell do we have to prove anything to anyone!"
I would like to have the automatic right to my entitlement, same as other more civilised places would grant us.
And yes Unionists will bait and bait more desperately and more cunningly the nearer the day comes, to make us look like down and out anti english thugs. I know a great deal of them suffer the ill treatment as us, but the british state does like to try to undermine the scots confidence in a very see through way, now as it happens. Our English neebors don't quite have the whole weight of the "State" determined to keep us in chains. They have conservative or labour, labour or conservative......can you blame them for clutching at the straw of the BNP? So I do feel sorry for them, also promise to be very wary of any baiters trying to make us look racist.
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#376 - "The level of ignorance about politics in Scotland is quite staggering but unfortunately is no bar to people sounding of about the parasitic and ungrateful Republic of Jockistan."
I think your perfectly correct, Grassyknollington. For years, the Unionists have been spouting lies and drivel, scare mongering stories and saying basically anything to knock Scots self-esteem and belief in themsevels, safe in the knowledge that the populace South of the Border were generally more interested in the events taking place in the Queen Vic than those taking place up here in Scotchland.
Unfortunately (at least for the Unionists), someone has been using their message to commit politcal mischief in the South. Coupled with a global "news service" (i.e. the internet), people in England now fully believe the message intended for Scots alone.
The difficulty Jim Murphy & co are now encountering in terms of the rise of English nationalism is that, with the genie out of the bottle, they can either assure the English that Scots pay their way (and thereby admit that they've lied to Scotland for years) or continue with the message that Scots are subsidied to the tune of billions, much to the umbrage of many in England. Their half-way house solution, where they admitted that Scotland was subsidised but not as much as other parts of the UK, just didn't get them anywhere.
Cameron will have a real problem in terms of the Barnett formula (I'm assuming here that Mandelson will let him become PM). Does he scrap the formula, equalise spending across the UK, effectively cutting billions from the budget of the Scottish Parliament (on top of the coming spending cuts that the treasury are already demanding), risking the probability of people turning to the SNP for protection, or does he stick with it and risk people turning to English nationalism parties who promise a better deal for them?
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Hey neebor,
I wouldn't worry just a whole lot about 1 BBC blog infuencing the tide in any significant way either. I think posters on blogs like this make up a tiny fraction of voters. I am utterly convinced that there is far less time 'till we get independence than we have been without it, I scincerely hope for your generation it comes very, very soon.
God listen to me, "'Till we get indepenence" like its omething I should be down on my knees begging for - No More Begging ;)
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392. At 4:51pm on 22 Jun 2009, snowthistle wrote:
Yee hah!!!
The first comment I've ever had removed. I have come of age.
I was merely pointing out that some of Greenockboys' predictions are coming true re swine flu."
:) LOL
Seriously, no offence to our Greenboy, but they are hardly hard to predict, but I admire his patience for taking the time to lay them down.
A yirsel greenockboy!!
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I'm come to the conclusion that waitingformyman is actually derekbarker in disguise!
Well, a bot of variety never harmed anyone.......
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#398 Neil_Small147
"waitingformyman" : "a bot of variety"
What are you suggesting?
:-)
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400 comments on a couple of paragraphs about Jim Devine.
Funny thing is - Jim hasn't been mentioned for the best part of a week. And Brian headed off to Butlin's on Friday.
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And, just in passing, if you're reading this, Brian - when you see a redcoat, don't roar "Remember Culloden, ye b*stard" and clock him.
The job description's different nowadays.
Send us a postcard.
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#400 Zootmac
Brian at Butlins is about as realistic as Anne Widdicombe accepting your proposal that you mentioned on NR!
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#401 Zootmac
Now why do you imagine that Brian is a Jacobite and not a Hanoverian?
Remember that 1745 was largely a Scottish Civil War that the English became involved in, as we did in theirs.
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ref 402 Oldnat
Ah! Rejection! And by Ann! Happy thought, indeed!
ref 403 Oldnat
Indeed, I was being presumptious - especially bearing in mind that Brian used to be based in Aberdeen, a city which greeted Cumberland with a civic reception.
Culloden was 1746, of course, though I take your point about the nature of the rebellion.
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#372 bighullabaloo ... I don't feel the burden of proof lies heavily upon me, but (to give an example for the sake of it) in 2002 the Labour/Lib Dem administration actively set out to reform our Education System; to cut a long and painful story short the result is the disastrous Curriculum for Excellence - a quango devised politcally correct mish mash of vague ideas and pleasingly pointless 'outcomes' that will send us rocketing backwards into the Educational Dark Ages ... Perhaps worse is that no one seems to care; please take the time to read the documentation surrounding this woefully inadequate response to our very real problems (standards slipping, attainment down versus the World) ... That ANY administration could let this utterly misdirected scheme make its way from the Consultant's couch to the chalkface is a damning indictment of the total failure to tell the Emperor he's naked ... And this, to be clear, was a Labour initiative that became a POLICY (which is what you asked I cite) ... There are many more, from all sides; crap policy making knows no Party boundaries ...
#375 googlehoo ... Without wishing to force you to wade again more than is necessary through my molasses - related verbiage, and trying desperately to aovid exposing any sense of anything, here's one possibility/suggestion/challenge ... When a Union goes through a rough patch one option is a Trial Separation; why not, assuming there was a mandate from the people, and with appropriate comforts built in, for a period of (say) 5 years, give it (full fiacal autonomy, indeed all the conditions of a independent State) a go ??? ... Then we would no longer need to argue about who's figures were right, who was telling porkies, who's got half a brain etc. ... We would in fact KNOW if it were viable and best for Scotland ... I would further suggest that a Referendum also be held at the end of the 5 (or whatever) years to get a meaningful (i.e. informed, fact and experience based) 'settled will' ... Who could object to such an approach, and more importantly why would anyone ??? ...
The time - honoured method of suck it and see seems to me a way out of the miasma of claim and counter - claim, insult and eye - poking, and general playground pony - tail pulling level nonsense that makes up the bulk of this and related blogs ...
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So the Brit House of Commons has a new speaker - to clear up the mess they would have been better with someone like George Reid who cleared up the mess that was imported into the Scottish Parliament.
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#404 Zootmac
"Aberdeen, a city which greeted Cumberland with a civic reception"
And I understand that Labour are still blaming the financial problems of the city on the cost of that reception (as well as its bankruptcy under Provost Hadden in the early 19th century!)
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#394
You can rant away about Trump to your heart's content. The point I was making that it didn't have anything to do with Jim Devine.
BTW I do puzzle about the way some people get all agitated about golf courses which are a pretty good way of providing economic activity while mostly maintaining the environment while seemingly being generally unconcerend about nuclear bases and nuclear waste dumps.
It must be Trump's criminal hair style.
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#398
Neil Small
I hope that wasn't a sexual innuendo!
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