A remarkable decade
Is it really 10 years? A decade since the devolved Scottish Parliament was first elected or - to borrow Winnie Ewing's decidedly deft phrase - reconvened.
Do you remember the coalition negotiations between Labour and the Liberal Democrats?
My recollection is that I spent roughly a year doorstepping the talks, standing outside that hideous building on the Lawnmarket, since demolished, which provided a temporary home for MSPs.
In fact, the coalition deal was signed on the 14th of May, only just a week after the election.
Do you remember the early row over the choice of Holyrood as the permanent home?
That went on for months, right? No, it was pre-empted by Donald Dewar's decision as Secretary of State.
MSPs voted to endorse Holyrood on June the 17th. The row, of course, continued.
Do you remember the campaign which led up to the election?
Remember these moments?
• March 12, John Swinney confirms a "Penny for Scotland", a plan to use the "Tartan Tax" to reverse a UK cut in the standard rate of income tax
• March 21, David McLetchie says the Tories would, in the last analysis, vote with Labour to thwart the SNP
• March 29, Alex Salmond calls the bombing of Kosovo "unpardonable folly"
• April 22, Alex Salmond cancels news conferences in favour of street campaigning. Says he wants to "get our jaickets off and get stuck in"
• April 30, Tony Blair in Glasgow; William Hague in Edinburgh; SNP publish economic strategy for independence
• May 4, Jim Wallace says the public have made the abolition of tuition fees "non-negotiable"
• May 5, rumours of rift between Donald Dewar and Gordon Brown over strategy
• May 6, pouring rain across Scotland after days of warm weather
A remarkable campaign, a remarkable election - and the prelude to 10 remarkable years.
PS: Watch out for more BBC Scotland coverage on Wednesday of the anniversary of the elections.
Plus - an early plug - watch out for my telly documentary on June 30, the eve of the anniversary of the Royal Opening.
- PPS: Welcome your comments as ever. Would remind you, gently, that it is one of the house rules that responses should not stray from the particular topic on offer.
- This is designed to ensure that, in the interests of all readers, there can be focused, substantive debate.
- Over a prolonged period, it means that the broadest possible range of topics can be aired.
I'm 
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~04~RS~)
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Good to be reminded of just how quick Donald Dewar was to abandon any semblance of consensus once the election had taken place.
With ALL other parties united in wishing to abolish tuition fees, he dug his heels in - imagine the horror of Labour not getting its own way; were the Scottish people not going to be eternally and unquestioningly grateful to Labour for giving them [back] a Scottish Parliament?
Instead of doing the honourable thing and, as did the SNP in 2007, forming a minority administration seeking partnerships on an issue-by-issue basis, he made Jim Wallace sign (in blood? I wouldn't be susprised!) a promise that the LibDems would be Labour's "bestest pals in the whole wide world" and offered Wallace something no Liberal/LibDem leader had experienced in living memory: a seat at the top table of power.
It may have taken eight further years, and the transmission of the sleaze culture from Westminster to Holyrood to show people how little were the major parties changed (combined with growing revulsion at the conduct of a certain Tony Blair), but Scotland ultimately learned that what the country needed was not necessarily a Scottish Parliament but a Scottish Government (governing for the Scottish people).
Try as they might, no Westminster Government will be able to put the genie back in the bottle - indeed, any attempt to try so to do would be to guarantee an unstoppable march towards Scots taking the initiative and taking back their FREEDOM!
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Brian
All very well you remembering but I can't, I wasn't here. But did you ever expect back then we would now have a nat government, by that light a remarkable decade indeed?
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"A decade since the devolved Scottish Parliament was first elected or - to borrow Winnie Ewing's decidedly deft phrase - reconvened."
The choice of "reconvened" was, as I recall, a nod in the direction of the final act of the Scots Parliament in declaring itself "adjourned," following the passing of its Act of Union.
That said, it would be silly to confuse the election of members with the ensuing convocation: just ask the people of Northern Ireland if periodically electing representatives for a Stormont administration actually meant anything (until, that is, the DUP and SF managed to supplant the UUP and SDLP in their respective communities).
Alex Salmond gets two salaries? How about the time when certain NI politicians were MP, MEP and MLA (and, during transition periods, Councillors)!
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#2, handclapping:
" I wasn't here."
You mean you're only 9!!!!
Or even younger?
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And 10 years ago we couldn't have imagined that support for Scottish Independence would have grown so much - and that such a large proportion of the voters had still to make up their minds on it.
These are the System 3 poll results on the Independence referendum Sep 07 to Jan 09
Poll, Sep 07, Dec 07, Apr 08, Nov 08, Jan 09
Agree, 35%, 40%, 41%, 35%, 38%
Disagree, 50%, 44%, 40%, 43%, 40%
DK, 15%, 16%, 19%, 22%, 21%
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Hee...Hee...Hee, Alex Salmond throw his jacket off went out onto the streets to campaign and got a right sore tanking, so much so! he took to his heels and headed south for another spell at westminster.
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Brian has been told to get his finger out and do a whitewash job on devolution.
But given the current economic meltdown the best he'll be able to do is try to convince everyone: "devolution may be rubbish (the euphemism used will probably be "a work in progress" or suchlike) but better the devil you know than the 'devil' you don't!"
In other words the same old Unionist scaremongering disguised as a documentary "marking ten years of devolution".
Why anyone would want to keep this UK shambles rather than take control of their own destiny is beyond me.
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"Hee...Hee...Hee, Alex Salmond throw his jacket off went out onto the streets to campaign and got a right sore tanking, so much so! he took to his heels and headed south for another spell at westminster."
I thought I'd just repeat derekbarker's latest bonkers offering in case anybody missed it.
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"May 6, pouring rain across Scotland after days of warm weather"
Is this was one of the "remarkable memories" of the "momentous moment" then it must have been a very slow news day.
If it HADN'T been pouring rain across Scotland after days of warm weather I might get the point.
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#5, oldnat
I want to see an independent Scotland, but I would have to think long and hard before voting for it if a referendum was held anytime soon.
The only reason that the SNP are in power now is because the party secured ONE Holyrood seat more than Labour and, solely for that reason, the LibDems declined to continue propping up a Labour-led Executive.
I would be happy to have the current Scottish Government in charge of an independent nation, but the idea of Iain Gray and Tavish Scott stitching up a deal to regain power for their respective parties - and that they might exercise power at some point in the future - is a terrifying prospect.
For good government in an independent Scotland, we would need not only a quality Government but quality Opposition, and there is little prospect of that anytime soon.
When Labour politicians, in particular, start seeing election to Holyrood as an achievement rather than a stepping stone up the greasy pole to the room at the top of the slippery slope down into the gutter, then they might once again be worthy of election.
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I remember when the new MSP's were being sworen-in and Colin fox of the socialist party gave a redition of A' man's A' man for A' that.
He was bursting at the seems to get on with it and help those who needed help the most.
Sadly the nats squeezed a good man out of parliament.
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#10 Older than the Pyramids
Forgive me if I point out the significant (actually total) lack of logic in your post.
Were Scotland to be independent, then no politician from Scotland would be eligible to stand for the rump UK House of Commons (unless they retained UK citizenship and stood for a seat outwith Scotland).
Actually the change will come sooner than that. Labour will lose the next UK election. Thereafter, no MP from a Scottish seat will ever again be appointed to an English Ministry, and it would be an exceptional situation if one were appointed to one of the major offices of the UK State. The best that any Scottish MP could hope for would be to be appointed to the non-job of Secretary of State for Scotland.
Given that scenario, which Parliament do you think that ambitious Scots politicians (of any party) will want to be elected to?
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#11 derekbarker
I'm sure that you remember
1. Colin Fox was a Socialist - not a Labour Party member
2. He would have been elected again if voters had chosen to vote Socialist, instead of for a right wing Labour Party, which had chosen to reject Socialism.
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#8 sneckedagain
Hello again friend! did you not know that Alex Salmond gave up on the Scottish parliament first time round and made a return to westminster?.
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#11, even for you that is totally inane. No-one is allowed to increase their share of the vote in case someone "good" is knocked out. I think your real quarrel there is with the electorate! Going to offer Mr Fox an apology, as bendy wendy did to the Labour Party Conference, for the temerity of the Scots for not voting for the gorilla with a red rosette?
Indeed you remind me of Paxman's antics speaking to George Galloway just after his election win in Bethnal Green and Bow,
"We're joined now from his count in Bethnal Green and Bow by George Galloway. Mr Galloway, are you proud of having got rid of one of the very few black women in Parliament?"
Colin Fox may be many things - a fairly terrible politician among them, anyone else remember asking who the idiot in the tights was charging across central Glasgow? But for you to associate him in any way with the Labour Party is an unacceptable slur.
Labour couldn't get any further removed from social democracy - never mind the fictitious link to socialism they cut so many years ago.
It is disgusting that people such as yourself willfully mislead people on the pretence that Labour is still the people's party.
The best way to get selected in the Labour Party as a candidate is now to be the son of the previous holder of the seat (see Glasgow Central and Glasgow North East - amongst others). You can call that what you like, but it isn't socialism; and it isn't democracy.
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#15
Some may say nepotism, your a bit removed from the idea of socialism.
Why you had to bring in names like Paxman is beyond me.
Look, there wasn't a sudden great loss of labour votes, the nationalist squeezed the socialist vote and some lib/dem votes.You cant argue against that?
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The Scottish Parliament has brought hope, and vision to the people of Scotland.
It's now possible for Scotland to lead the way, as mentioned above and we can. How far shall we go? Everything is possible, and the future is ours for the taking. There's little to stop us and much to gain.
Let us hope that in the next 10 yeras the Scottish Parliaments matures further and the people grow in confidence, and then we can progress like never before.
Derek:
It's hardly the fault of the SNP for "squeezing a good man out of Parliament". It was the failure of the individuals for not appealing to the members of the public enough.
It's one of the benefits of the Scottish Parliament. In UK politics, the people are forced to choose between Labour or the Conservatives. These two groups are the parties large enough to form Government, so why vote SNP, Liberal Democrats or for another political party? The chances are your vote would be wasted and your best bet would be to support your most favourite Labour or Conservative candidate in order to prevent your least favourite candidate from winning the seat.
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Gordon Brown has really got to get new PR people ... the big deal has been made of the swastika in one of the attached photos, for me the one that reads: "Britain's future" with Brown underneath it is even better.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article6229529.ece
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If the Scottish parliament was reconvened, as expressed by Winnie Ewing, (A woman I much admire) then why are there Scots MPs in the Westminster parliament? For the Scottish parliament to reconvene it would, by its nature, mean that Scotland is an independent country and have nothing to do with the election process of its southern neighbours. I think Winnie Ewing was wrong in that statement as we are not an independent country but, for the moment, an integral part of the UK living on a subsidised 'grant' from Westminster.
The speech that Donald Dewer gave to the Holyrood Parliament is still something that I keep safe on my computer. It was a wonderful speech. Obviously, I didn't agree with all that he said but it was a speech full of hope for the future of Scotland. It should also be remembered that it was the Labour party who returned a degree of self government to the Scottish people and for that I am grateful, but not satisfied. I accept, and understand, that the object was not to give the normal powers that an independent country would normally have to the Scottish people but a 'talking shop' to vote on the 'grant' given to us from Westminster. I think they miscalculated there as a growing number of Scots want more. Not only full fiscal autonomy but the right to be an independent nation within the brotherhood of man (and women, I'm not forgetting aye_write)and, also, the right to forge our own destiny upon the world in whatever direction the Scottish people want us to take.
How the UK government is going to balance this growing urge of the Scots with needs of the Union; I don't know. I suspect that the Union may allow a 'creeping' independence to the Scots hoping that the Nationalist cause may drift away in the fullness of time and thereby not have to concern themselves with this tricky problem. This is the main concern of the Nationalists; can they keep the momentum going. That question can only be answered in the future.
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A Remarkable Decade:
Isn't it just. Scottish Parliament, the mechanism originally designed to 'kill nationalism stone dead' is the very same mechanism, that with each passing day evolves towards self determination.
Wansanshoo.
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#20 Wansanshoo:
I thought that the original plan for the Scottish Parliament was meant to give Scotland independance in it's own governance, a Scottish gov't for Scottish issues (albeit on a grant from Westminster as pointed out above)
I didn't think it was set up to 'kill nationalism stone dead'
I don't honestly think that every decision that comes from Westminster has the sole intention of harming Scotland's interests
Congrats on the ten years by the way, it has been a steep (ish) learning curve for all involved but it has to be better than the way things were before doesn't it?
I hope you get a referendum and a vote soon on full independance by the way.....
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Devolution was the catalyst for me taking an interest in Scottish politics, until then I had simply been a left of centre person who always voted Labour. I can't remember the epiphony moment when I decided independence was the only way forward.
However my ambivalence towards the SNP in the late nineties was exemplified by an interview I saw on Scottish Newsnight. I remember that Swinney was being pilloried as then leader of the SNP and an SNP member was being highly critical of the path being taken by the party. I can't remember this persons name but I think he may have been a doctor. But so disinterested in the SNP was I, and probably many others, that I didn't really care.
Now switch to 2009 and the transformation is truly remarkable, people are now taking an interest in Scottish politics, the constitution is being debated and we have an SNP government.
When Alex Salmond stated last week that we were two thirds way towards independence, he may have been alluding to the fact that we have the parliament and an SNP government the third step is to win the referendum.
It helps of course that the Westminster government under Labour have ruined the UK economy and by extension caused great harm to Scotland. The corruption and greed shown by Labour MP's, many of them Scottish, has also served to focus the attention of Scots. With the demographics of the Labour vote showing a reliance on the older generation, then the slow but persistant erosion of Labour's power base in Scotland will continue.
The internet consolidates this 'perfect storm' allowing stories, facts and argument to be distributed more readily than would have otherwise been the case. Devolution didn't kill the desire for independence, that lives as long as the nation lives. However what it did do is to remind many Scots that we aren't as incapable nor lacking in confidence as we had hitherto been led to believe.
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#10, Older Than The Pyramids,
Have to agree with you that good governance needs good opposition. I believe that the dreaded Maggie would not have been such a disaster for Scotland if she had had effective opposition. Likewise Blair would have been a better leader if it were not for the Tories under the instantly forgettable IDS. In the hypothetical independent Scotland, I believe that an independent tory party under Aunty Annabel would provide an effective opposition. I might even find myself voting tory for the first time in my life.
...still who would have thought ten years ago that I would be pondering who I might vote for post independence. I had told my kids that when it comes they must drink a toast to their old mum, now I believe it just might happen in my lifetime.
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Derek, your posts are sounding more and more desperate, how is the identity crisis by the way, remember to sign in under the correct identity when you post, no more faux pas like you had in Brian's other blogs. Kepp up the good work Derek, keep the red rag dying here.
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The strongest impact of devolution on the politics of Scotland has been to see the continuing decline of Labour as the first party of choice to the point where their vote share is now behind the SNP at Holyrood and barely ahead of the SNP for Westminster.
Nor is this just a Scottish phenomenon, the same is happening in Wales:
"Labour's support (in Wales) has plummeted. The 2007 assembly election saw its constituency vote drop to 32.2% while the 2008 local elections left Labour in a majority on just two councils."
While Unionist commentators in both Scotland and the Principality would like to claim this is just a 'temporary blip', the polling trends suggest something more permanent in the shift away from Labour.
It would appear that both the Welsh and the Scots, having more control over their own affairs, find the need to send a 'protest party' to Westminster (in the form of Labour) an increasing irrelevance.
Good news for everyone, apart from Gordon and his mendacious party.
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# 21 Mightychewster.
During the debates on devolution in the 1990s the then Secretary of State for Scotland, George Robertson, declared confidently and memorably: "Devolution will kill nationalism stone dead."
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It seems the former Secretary of State for Scotland views differ from your own.
As for the 'Westminster grant' remark, well, only within this union could anyone describe this as a 'grant' or a 'dividend', it is precisely that type of language that the people of Scotland are no longer intimidated by.
Wansanshoo.
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"Scottish parliament reconvened " ? This is not a Scottish parliament, it is a puppet parliament controlled and run from Westminster ; at the moment by Labour, next year by the Tories. However hard the incumbent party in power at Holyrood protests that the opposite is true, the fact remains that Westminster pulls the strings and holds the purse. What we have is a talking shop populated by second grade politicians who pay lip service to the idea that they somehow run Scotland when in fact they only run what Westminster and ultimately the people of England allow.
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It is wonderful to have the devolved Scottish parliament, when you consider what it replaced.
I grew up with little recognition of Scottish politics, other than as an afterthought to the main event. The Tory government of Thatcher would be in the news for whatever (dastardly ;-) ) reason, and then you'd get a 1 minute interview with George Younger, Michael Forsyth or Malcolm Rifkind courtesy of Reporting Scotland with what that meant for Scotland.
i.e. you weren't a part of it, you were in no way involved, you were just informed of what you we're getting, or more likely losing.
Now we have real focus on Scottish Politics and the options available to the Scottish Electorate. There's still too much that is handed down from Westminster-on-High, but the movement of democracy towards the Scottish people has been most welcome. That movement must continue, and with it the positive advancement of Scottish democracy.
Having tasted the apetiser - the nation is waking up to how the main course might taste. I look forward to sampling it.
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From BBC article "One last, lingering look behind"
"the work is still not finished"
This is precisely the sort of "work in progress" rhetoric I predicted in my (#7).
We must not say "devolution isn't working" because the BBC are here to tell us "devolution isn't finished yet". Yeah, right.
BBC Scotland are apologists for a failed UK and, by extension, for its failed devolution experiment.
Labour cynically believed devolution would dampen desire for independence.
But after the collapse of our banks people saw the Scottish parliament is powerless in a real crisis (see BBC's "UK recession 'worst since 1930s'" today).
The only way out of this Labour/Tory UK economic quagmire is full independence for Scotland.
Roll on the referendum!
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As a non-Scottish political junkie it has been fascinating to watch the development of Scottish politics over the last 10 years. The big event has been the loss of Labour's hegemony. One of the main arguments against devolution was that Scotland would have been a one party state, devolution has actually exposed the uselessness and tribalism of Scottish Labour in a way that would never have happened under direct rule. Labour thought that it would be in power in Scotland for ever, but when you get power, after a while people start to ask what you have done, in Labour's case the answer was not very much and they didn't seem to have a vision for where they wanted Scotland to go. I believe that Donald Dewar did have such a vision but sadly he never got the chance to develop it. It's often said that the SNP won in 2007 not because people endorsed independence but simply that it was time for a change. Labour thought that devolution to Scotland, Wales and London would create compliant administrations who would not upset the leadership. Well they've lost Scotland and London and they're on the ropes in Wales!
Another interesting feature has been the way that the Tories embraced devolution after the referendum. In their heart of hearts they must regret not embracing devolution 30 years ago as they were still strong across Scotland then and they would have been the official opposition instead of fringe players. In such a scenario it's possible that as in 2007, Scots would have got bored with Labour and turned to the Tories for change. I watched part of BBC Parliament's re-run of the 1979 GE coverage on Monday and it was clear from the Scottish results that there was a big endorsement of the idea of devolution. This was emphasized by the fact that Teddy Taylor, the arch anti-devolutionist, was the only Tory to lose his seat in that election whereas the arch pro-devolutionist, Alick Buchanan-Smith saw his majority go through the roof! In hindsight I think Thatcher missed an oppurtunity by being so dogmatic, the Tories should have offered devolution with the provison that Scottish MP's would lose voting rights on English only issues. That would probably have solved the West Lothian Question and would have made it very difficult for Labour to regain power at Westminster. I heard Alec Salmond on Radio 5 this morning saying he would welcome the creation of an English Parliament even if Scotland doesn't go for independence. The only people blocking it are Labour because they have always wanted to have their cake and eat it over devolution. They want devolution (as long as Scits continue to vote for them!) but they won't face up to the constitutional imbalances it creates because that would be electorally bad for them.
Congratualtions to Holyroyd on 10 successful years and hoping for many more years of success!
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# 25 slainthemha
I wouldn't start writing the obituary of the Labour party just yet. They have been in power for a long time now and the voting public are getting fed up, they want something new. Remember that when the Tories take power after the next GE they are going have to do some savage cutting to try and bring the economy back on track after the debacle of Labour's Anglo-Saxon banking policies. The Tories have to hold their hand up to this mess as well as they started it. What was abhorrent about Labour was that they dived deep into this banking mess when they took power instead of bringing it under some form of control. Anyway, when the Tories beginning the cutting, which will have to happen, the Labour party will be in opposition and will attack the Tories for their savage cuts. A bit hypocritical, I know, but that is the nature of politics. The voting public will quickly forget who it was that was in power when the banking crises hit us and sway, again, back to Labour.
How is all this going to affect Scotland? It will be to the advantage of the SNP as they can sit back and blame whichever party is in power because they (the SNP) are not to blame for the forthcoming cuts. The SNP will take the high moral ground in all this, quite rightly too, and wring their hands in frustration at the ineffectualness of being in a Unino with England. I suspect that the Welsh Nationalists will do the same. I also suspect that, in the interest of the Union the Tories are going to have to come to some deal with the Nationalists much to the ire of the sorely taxed and unheard middle England voters. I can imagine that there will be a mass of tutting emanating from the shires, and I wouldn't blame them. Interesting times to come.
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#23
An independent Scottish Tory Party would not have allowed the Scottish Steel Industry to be dismantled and reassembled in Tyneside and Wales.
An independent Scottish Labour Party would not have surrendered on this issue (as it very assuredly did).
I well remember addressing a huge meeting in the Great Hall at Westminster convened by the late Scottish Labour MP Allen Adams after the arranged Gartcosh debate for which over 1000 of us had travelled down from Scotland had been abandoned by Labour in favour of a debate on Westland Helicopters.
I put the point to the few representatives of the Feeble Fifty who'd had the courage to face us in that hall that if the Scottish Labour Group merely stood up in Parliament and stated that if Gartcosh was closed they would return to Scotland and set up a Scottish Government all the destruction of the Scottish Steel industry would be instantly halted and reversed.
They had no answer to that because they knew that this was true.
Therein lies a central point of political import. Self government is essential if you wish to protect yourself. That period destroyed the Scottish Tories because, no matter how you care to view things strategically, Thatcher's reforms were bad for Scotland. I suggest however that the craven behaviour of Scotland's majority party planted the seeds for the implosion we are about to witness of Scotland's sub branch of the loyal unionist British Labour party.
There are some on this blog who don't get it yet and they don't know they haven't got it yet and they're really quite comical.
We must pray for them. Amen.
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The last member of former Royal Bank of Scotland boss Sir Fred Goodwin's failed top team is set to leave the group with a £517,000-a-year pension. RBS lost £24.1bn in 2008 - the largest loss in UK corporate history.
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#28 dear_wendy
I spent some time in the 90s in rural East Anglia and your description of pre-devolution Scotland chimes very well with their views on "Lunnon". As they get the least from Government, while having levels of rural poverty worse than anything in the Highlands and Islands, you would think that they would jump at a chance for devolution but they didn't. Funny people the English.
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31 - Nope, don't agree - as Westminster and Labour's role there is increasingly an irrelevance to the key decisions made for Scotland.
The reality for Calman and his Unionist cabal has been to shift from taking powers away from Holyrood (as Brown sought) to one of bringing even more powers to Holyrood - including control of tax raising powers and income.
Every week that Labour and Brown play their Unionist card in Scotland opposing the sensible and equitable review of Barnet that fiscal independence would bring to Scotland, is a week nearer the break up of the Union. Every time Elmer Fudd opens his mouth to trumpet the latest piece of Gordon's anti SNP speak at FMQ's; he makes Wee Eck's case for him ever more powerfully.
Labour's media lovies can no longer save them, especially as the three key press mouth pieces for Labour propaganda in Scotland (Hootsmon, Herod and Daily Retard) are all in the thick and steaming, loosing money left right and centre, loosing readership and cutting staff. If BBC Scotland was 'pay per view' it would be in a similar state having failed in its duty of impartiality and to hold all parties to account.
The Labour vote is waning not just because of people's anger (to presume this is the only reason is to compound Labour arrogance) but more importantly because Labour, as presently constituted, is no longer relevant to the people of Scotland and Wales wishes, needs and expectations.
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# 35 slainthemha
You may disagree with me but I tend to agree with you in your summing up. I was talking about what the future is to hold for the Labour party in the UK and not just about Scotland. I should have made that more clear, sorry.
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#35 Slaintemha
Agreed.
Labour's problem in Scotland is simple. They are not representing Scotland, but Westminster. The people compare and contrast this with the SNP and increasingly prefer the party that best serves the Scottish interest.
Spin and smears in the media cannot mask this indefinitely and indeed the simple truth is becoming increasingly apparent to the Scottish electorate.
Labour's decline in Scotland will continue until it starts serving the Scottish interest. Major structural reform of the party is required.
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There is a huge story brewing re the UK nuclear submarines and is very relevant to devolution and possible Scottish independence with the SNP stance on nuclear power and nuclear weapons as it is.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/glasgow_and_west/8035556.stm
I assume the "could be" phrase in the last sentence is a loaded hint towards the SNP and proponents of Scottish Independence. Six years is long enough to see who wins the next Scottish Elections and to see out a possible independence debate and referendum.
It would be interesting to see if next year brings a UK government led by a Conservative party very England dominated rather than the current Labour government with its Scottish leadership and another SNP government in Holyrood.
I imagine Gordon will be saying if Scotland goes with the SNP again that Faslane will shut and everything will go to Devonport leading to thousands of jobs going rather than extra employment in Glasgow and its surrounding areas.
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#38 If the number of jobs at Devonport is going to remain "roughly the same" and there will be "extra employment in Glasgow and it's surrounding areas", I'll be interested to see where the "improvement in efficiency and effectiveness" comes from.
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38 - the importance of Faslane for local jobs is much over-rated by the Scottish media. The actual number of locals directly employed at Faslane is under 500 (MoD written answer in Hansard). Gordon's thousands of jobs bluster is already blown.
If Gordon is serious about creating jobs in the West of Scotland why the delays to the Type 45 contract at Govan or the postponement of the new carrier builds at Govan and Rosyth? Now there is a story of thousands of jobs in jeopardy, courtesy of Westminster dissemblance while Gordon fiddles and Labour burns.
Bringing forward the MoD ship builds would be a clear Union benefit to Scotland and be a positive case for the Union but Gordon and his cabal are now so far up themselves that the lump in Gordon's throat is actually Ed Balls nose. Of course there is little or no benefit for Labour or Gordon in this course of action as it is not punitive nor does it teach us stupid Scots a lesson for ditching Labour in ever increasing numbers.
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From a military and operational viewpoint basing all the subs at Faslane makes sense. From a political viewpoint it's bad for Labour. It was announced a few weeks ago that most of Devonport's surface ships were being moved to Portsmouth, if the SSN's go as well then the base may well be closed, echoes of the run down of Rosyth in the early 90's. If true, then it looks like a case of Labour wanting to shower manna from heaven across Scotland so as to stave off the SNP, as Slaintemha says above if they really wanted to safeguard Scottish jobs they wouldn't have delayed the CVF contract or cancelled the final 2 Type 45 destroyers. Labour also has 2 very marginal seats in Plymouth, if Devonport goes then what hope they had of hanging on goes with it.
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Yeah, and I got the normal bureaucrat reply to my opinions on this massive carbuncle......costing how many million$ perhaps it was more to do with my rant that what we really have here is a vastly glorified Greater Regional Council, or a whole new circus with the same clowns running it. Aka clowns tak yer pick fae Politician / Bureaucrat thur aw ra same!
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Faslane/Coulport is a powerful symbol of an unstable political divide in Scotland and Scotland's powerlessness.
The STUC and Scotland's real Labour party are opposed to nuclear submarine renewal. The Labour London Government supports renewal and is given support by some elected Scottish Labour figures.
The LibDems are opposed. However their local MP is at best ambivalent/ in favour of renewal.
The Tories (per Liam Fox) are officially in favour of renewal but David Cameron is questioning that stance and David Davis has rubbished it. The Scottish Tories are timidly silent on the issue.
Top military men have described the case for Trident renewal as "absolute rubbish"
Less than 1000 workers at these bases are involved in the nuclear part of it and many of them are not local.
The money to be wasted on Trident could fund between 30,000 and 40,000 real jobs that would energise the economy. This will become a defining issue over the next couple of years.
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I had forgotten re the contracts for the new super carriers.
I imagine Gordon will be trying to "big up" his support of Scottish jobs and Scottish engineering and ship building skills.
Expect speeches about investment in skills; rebirth of old skills; regeneration of ship yards and long term contracts as well as comments re the largest ships to be built on the Clyde for xx years and many other cliches.
However he knows and we all know that the final decisions are likely to be made by the next PM in the next UK parliament and maybe the one after that. If things stay as they are expect that decision to come from the MP for Witney rather than Gordon.
I would imagine Gordon is looking to goad the SNP to choose over independence and nuclear power and naval shipyard jobs both on construction and maintenance.
I imagine it will get very very dirty before long.
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#42 redrobb
I'm no fan of Westminster either, but it's a bit OTT to describe it as as "a vastly glorified Greater Regional Council"
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#41 JPSLotus79
Maybe from a British military and operational view it would be a good decision, but if you were English? Having your primary sea deterrence all based in a foreign country doesn't sound like a good stategy to me, or maybe they have Kaliningrad in mind.
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In my mind, the aspect of a scottish parliament was little more than a mechanism for gaining scottish votes by the Labour Party. In 1999, when the Labour party had taken power in Westminster - I remember seeing bilboards everywhere decrying the SNP in trying to divorce Scotland from the UK and other such unashamed propaganda of the same vein.
Labour could have carried on the delicate balancing act as the "friend" and "master" of Scotland for forever and a day with the Tories. But it was the SNP's precence that had made things begin to unravel for them.
As most on this board have posted, the policies delivered by pro unionist party's reveal that their consideration lies with the leader of thier Westminster Party. Scottish Unionists batting reforms back and forth between each other at Holyrood would have left the Scottish parliament as stale, stangnant and ultimately as corrupt as the Westminster one.
We should thank the SNP for offering an alternative, for promoting Scotland before anything else. Beacuse of the SNP, both Labour and the Tories have had to reinvent thier political wheel's in order to offer something that even resembles opposition in Scotland. The liberals on the other hand, with a good 30 years practice at being "the other party" in westminster, have perfected the "wall flower" effect of blending into the political furniture - not something in which they really differ from thier Westminster colleagues.
So in turn I'd like to express my thanks to Labour for biting the vote-winning bullet 10 years ago that will live on in infamy as the act that ensured the destruction of the act of Union. And to the Tories who let them in by promoting policies that killed the economic and industrial heart of Scotland
We couldn't have done it without you.
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#45 oldnat
Not if you are a Brussels bureaucrat.
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Just listened to Brown at PM's Questions accusing Cameron of being "isolated in Europe" because "You cannot cut your way out of recession!!"
In what way does that mantra purport to accommodate his government's £500 million cut from the Scottish budget???
Labour hypocrisy writ large as ever. Cheers, Brown!!
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Handclapping.
Well obviously if Scotland becomes independent then given the SNP's opposition to nuclear power and weapons the sub fleet would have to leave and that would make closing Devonport (if indeed that is what happens) an even bigger folly as there would be no other base apart from Portsmouth and that may not be suitable for the subs!
This just proves that the Brown government is in such a mess that they're trying anything to gain friends and not stopping to think through the long term consequences of their actions
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#47 GAberdeen
Given the eyewatering costs to the wealthy parties in the high profile divorces decided in England in the last couple of years, maybe the nats ought to revive the divorce propaganda. Just as long as NR's blog never got to hear about it!
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GAberdeen, brilliant post *;o)
...but the Unionists are not finished yet, there are more bullets coming in the shape of Nuclear power, Nuclear weapons, I.D. Cards etc. Not to mention the cutting of finance to Scotland, slease and further unemployment under the next Tory UK Government.
...The best bit of the Devolution story has yet to unfold.
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10 years on! and politic's has lost all sense of reality as the tories and the nationalist all throw darts at the labour party.
It really is madness, when a political party wants power but doesn't have a clue what or how it will deal with that power?.
You know it is nothing short than mass hysteria.
Well! it's HI HO SILVER AWAY! for me!
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#53 derekbarker
Well, hullo there Nobby!
It really is madness, when a political party wants power but doesn't have a clue what or how it will deal with that power?.
Why didn't you tell Tony in 97?
You know it is nothing short than mass hysteria.
Labour are finding out what happens when the patient recovers.
Well! it's HI HO SILVER AWAY! for me!
Drive safely, we'd love to have you back ... from all the staff at Carstairs! 8-)
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The SNP are only in power, because of our continued disillusionment with the main parties.
The urge to try any other option, even the SNP, was too tempting.
Welcome, SNP, to the umbrella under which all political parties are now categorised.
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Emigration, anyone ?
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#53 derekbarker -
"It really is madness, when a political party wants power but doesn't have a clue what or how it will deal with that power?."
You're absolutely right but, hopefully, we'll be rid of Gordy and his power-mad Labour apparatchiks before too long.
I was listening this morning to Lou Reed's 1989 album "New York" and was struck by how powerfully resonant and relevant a piece of work it is today.
I commend anyone interested to track 13, "Strawman", in particular the lines beginning, "Does anyone need yet another politician . . ."
Change the names and it's as apt a condemnation of Labour's dog days as any I've ever heard.
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afternoon, how are you all Derek, I have just watched Scottish questions followed by prime ministers questions and quite frankly what a waste of time and money .i fully agree with you it really is madness when a political party and Prime minister wait so long to get power and then they find out that they are actually not any use at the job.
Westminster - a discredited Parliament,full of discredited so called politicians, delivering he - haw for this nation.
Sid
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#55 newsjock
"Main parties"? The two main parties within the Scottish political context are the SNP and Labour.
The two main parties within the Westminster political context are Labour and Tory.
It makes no sense to confuse the different political systems.
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#5 oldnat.
Thanks for the figures. The figures show a general increase in support for Independence and a bigger decrease in those against. It seems the 'No's' are moving to the 'don't knows' and the 'yes's'. This is all part of the slippery slope.
Also on the slippery slope is the SNP government.
Next is the referendum. That is a long way off in political terms. However, the SNP hold all the aces. The tories will win the next GE. The Scots will be in turmoil because they will have to face up to years of tory cuts. Either put up with that or take the opt out which will be put on the table; a referendum. Remember we are on the slippery slope. I reckon the SNP and the Scottish people will win the referendum.
Freedom
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"It really is madness, when a political party wants power but doesn't have a clue what or how it will deal with that power?"
The country ends up broke, a laughing stock, and only semi-democratic.
Thanks for that Derek, alone I couldn't have put together a better summary of every little piece of Labour madness since 97!
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newsjock:
#55.
The SNP are a main political party in Scotland, but I do disagree that the SNP gained power through disillusionment.
The people wanted change, but the Conservatives and Liberal Democrats were not the parties they wanted.
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#26 Wansanshoo
I didn't realise that was a direct quote
I would have thought that devolving to a Scottish parliament was the first step towards an independant Scotland and not the opposite! That does sound like a strange thing to say though.......
I don't really think that using the word 'grant' is intimidating in any way though? (I was merely repeating another poster) I understand the use of the word 'dividen' is more historical and was written into the Act of Union?? (but i'm not 100% sure on that)
You don't really feel intimidated by the phraseology in use though do you? (genuine question :-)
I can understand the feelings regarding a Tory government though, it's not exactly what people in England want either - more of a choice of the (slightly) lesser of two evils. In all fairness most voters in England would vote for the proverbial 'pigs head on a stick' at the moment
We will get a Tory government purely because we want rid of Labour - not because they will be any better at the job. But that's our system unfortunately, I would like to completely reform it root and branch but I don't think I will see it in my lifetime in England - you have much more of a chance in Scotland being independant and making it's own choices than England does
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Well! it's HI HO SILVER AWAY! for me!
Who is that masked man?
It's the Lone Deranger!
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Post 57 re apposite albums for the time it may be 30 years old but the debut album by The Specials is as relevant today as it was then.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/music/reviews/vxbd
Teenage pregnancies, gang violence, alienation of youth and despair during the dieing days of a labour government.
Whilst their swansong Ghost Town remains as it was at the time an indictment of the ruling classes and their inability to relate to the youth of the day.
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Here we go again.
5. oldnat: "...And 10 years ago we couldn't have imagined that support for Scottish Independence would have grown so much."
And then he produces 'proof' that shows marginal change in support since 2007 and that support is down on last year.
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#60 hadrianswall
Way too optimistic. We've a shed-load of cuts coming our way ( it's the Union dividend, you know ) and whoever is seen to be they, as in why don't they do something about it, is going to get hammered. The best hope for the nats is if they get about 20 MPs at the GE, so they can talk about having a mandate despite Tavish's vote on the referendum, introduce a Bill for the Referendum and get voted down. Then they, sorry the SNP, can take their ball back, quit Government and leave the Unionists to take the flak for the cuts of 12.5% of the Scottish budget. After that trauma, you might even get a nat majority in the 2012 election and, with recession on the way out by then, you might get an independence result in a referendum too.
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Yes congratulations to 10 years of the Scottish Parliament. Clearly there is more to come. Calman, to head off independence, will promote more devolution. More devolution will promote independence. It seems, at the moment inevitable.
However no one seems to be spelling out the BIG picture, what will the constitution look like. The American Declaration of Independence took some time to draft. Shouldn't Scotland's future constitution be being drafted now. Salmond is on record as keeping the monarchy as the constitutional head of state, would we be happy with a head of state in another country. Australia and Canada don't seem to mind.
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66 - but not as much as the decline in support for the Unionist parties?
Angus McLeod in the Times suggests the real swing from Labour to the SNP taking both Holyrood and Westmonster intentions is in the region of 20%.
Where as those wishing for independence have climbed steadily from 23% in May 2007 to between 35 and 42% May 2009 - depending on the question asked in the survey. Those against dropping from 54% in May 2007 to 40% in May 2009. So a 12% to 14% swing towards voting for independence indicates what is happening to support for the Union?
PS: Last week's survey from the Glasgow Herod (no fans of the SNP) showed 42% for independence within the EU, 40% against, 18% no opinion / don't know; but more importantly if the Tories you worship take over in Westmonster 35% of the no vote becomes a yes. That is the pro independence vote rises to 52%.
So given you want a Tory win in the GE, you really need to be careful what you wish for.
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Heard Labour MSP Jackie Bailie being interviewed on Radio Scotland on the Nuclear Subs story.
She described the fact that Faslane will now service all such submarines as an example of the UK dividend (Yes, I'm sure she said UK and not Union).
Now, statements like this from Labour MP's and MSP's are par for the course these days. However, has it really come to this, that having a nuclear arsenal and the subs that transport them in readiness to fire housed entirely in Scotland is described by Labour politicians in Scotland as a Union benefit?
Coupled with the statement was the now mandatory and baseless figure of 'jobs' that are to be created - 1000 apparently.
Now, jobs can be created with any project; Processing toxic waste from other countries would create jobs, storing radioactive waste from other countries would also create jobs as would developing and storing chemical weapons.
For me though, this latest announcement is not so much a dividend as further reason to end this Union. I no longer wish my money to be spent on such weaponry and it's storage. I no longer wish the resources of my country to be misused in this fashion.
Let's weigh up the benefits and disadvantages of being in this Union against the benefits or disadvantages of taking decisions ourselves and then ask the Scottish people if they wish to remain governed by Westminster or not.
"Here we go again." sneers Reluctant-Expat as he begins a comment with yet another derisory remark. Well, I for one am confident that these so called 'Union benefits' won't be seen that way by the vast majority of Scots. I'm also confident that sneering and patronising remarks will alienate more people than they will attract.
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[37. At 11:32am on 06 May 2009, dear_wendy wrote:
#35 Slaintemha
Agreed.
Labour's problem in Scotland is simple. They are not representing Scotland, but Westminster. The people compare and contrast this with the SNP and increasingly prefer the party that best serves the Scottish interest.]
Really? My impression is that the SNP minority government spend a proportionally greater part of their time and effort on their NE Scotland power base, and not so much on the rest of us. I won't be voting for them till that changes. Plus, I pretty much can't stand their leading cabal, except for John Swinney.
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@47 GA Aberdeen, very good post.
Re the Tories , I've been enjoying the English right wing blogs for the last couple of years as although scurrilously filthy at times they are often hilarious. Their hatred of labour makes them unmissable reading and of course there is an element of "my enemy's enemy is my friend".
I don't doubt for one second though that if they are returned at the next election their sights will be then be on the SNP.
Agree about the Lib Dems, even if they could shake off the junior Labour tag, what would they become? They all seem to be terribly well spoken chappies like Tavish
who appeal to people in rural areas who don't really like politics. What are the Lib Dems for apart from propping up other unionist parties in a crisis?
I caught Jackie Baillie at 4pm ( not as easy as it sounds) enthusing about the Faslane news and emphasising what the UK Government was doing for Scotland. How I've missed her dulcet tones since Wendy fell on her sword. Bill Whiteford sounded like he could have licked her head. How come he's so mean to Mr. Swinney?
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1st time poster.
What is at stake? An Independent Scotland, that could be isolated because of it's geographical position within northern Europe.
A conservative uk government that wants to cut it's way out of recession
and most probably ask the question,"can the uk still afford devolution"
The last 10 years have been fruitful in terms of growth.
The next 10 years require strong, positive and responsibile solutions and that probably put's a big question mark over the conservatives and the SNP.
What's at stake, quite alot actually. Much more tham meets the eye.
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Just had another look at the polls posted by oldnat.
The noticeable trend in the figures isn't so much the increase in support for independence over the two years, 3%, but the narrowing of the gap between the Yes and the No, from 15% down to 2%.
The trend is clear, it is a move away from the Union. Will Scots embrace full independence? I don't know, none of us do, but it is clear that the electorate are moving towards change. The Union as we know it will either be transformed by the Scottish electorate or it will be ended by them.
Devolution dealt the Union a severe blow, to use the words of Reluctant-Expat 'Here we go again ...'.
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Brian,
I take it we are to assume that this has now become a 'good day to bury bad news' as has been the case recently with the UK Labour Party?? (Though I know you posted ahead of the latest news today (wee devil smiley)).
Or is this just the most utter cynicism yet delivered by the completely morally bankrupt Labour Party of Westminster in Scotland to the Scottish people??
To think that on this 10th anniversary of devolution the LPoWiS should make such an announcement in the face of virtually total opposition from the Scottish people just beggars belief.
Of course, it may turn out to be the biggest own political goal ever scored (large devil smiley)!!
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I don't know how the discussion got onto popular music, but it was indeed one song (one line in that song, even) which turned me on to politics - The Jam's "Going Underground":
"...it's the kidney machines that pay for rockets and guns." (Paul Weller, 1980)
And even today, our politicians are still taxed with making choices between unnecessary (and of questionably legality) war(s) and, say, restoring the Health Services to the 'envy of the world.'
... and those politicians continue to make the wrong choice, every single time (or so it appears)!
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#68 portcharlotte
If you google "A Constitution for a Free Scotland", you'll find the model constitution that the SNP suggests.
The actual constitution for an independent Scotland, however, would have input from others.
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#63 Mightychewster.
Returning a part of taxpayers funds should not be classed or portrayed as a 'Westminster Block Grant' or indeed a 'Union Dividend'.
A classic example is the Olympics legacy, an opportunity to spend 10 billion pounds of taxpayers money on regenerating east London. The Government has declared the scheme will bypass the normal Barnett Formula consequential ruling, in effect, the rest of the island pays to regenerate east London.On this occassion the terminology 'grant' and 'dividend' have been replaced by 'Olympic Funding'.
This is typical example of the inequality within the union.
Wansanshoo.
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#68, portcharlotte
The SNP published a specimen constitution (titled "A Constitution for a Free Scotland") way back in 2002........ authored by the recently deceased Prof Neil MacCormick.
With thanks to Ed Iglehart (see 'Blether with Brian', February 2009), the document is listed here:
http://home2.btconnect.com/tipiglen/blankweb.html
(The PDF may also be found on the SNP website, but links to PDFs are unacceptable on BBC blogs.)
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There are some who said Scotland would never have devolution, but we have. There are some who said Scotland would never have a parliament, but we do. There are some who said Scots could never govern themselves, but we can. There are some who said Scotland would only ever vote for Labour, but we don't. There are some who said the SNP would never gain power, but they have. There are some who say Scotland will never be independent.......
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so there we go then when you look in to it, today's big announcement will only be completed by 2017 and it won't start to "around"2005 .
the labour party at it's best ,now even their announcements are on "the never never"!!!
interesting the BBC never bothered reporting the time frame.
OK so they are now- grudgingly I wonder how many calls text and e- mails they got!
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74. greenockboy
Sorry boys but (and I am sure you will butcher me for saying this oldnat!) the polls just as much display a move away from independence to the union as the other way round. See below. All I am trying to point out is that the only true way to know the peoples views is to have a referendum after the 2011 Scottish Parliamentary elections.
These are just examples of many polls that show a different trend to the ones Oldnat has pointed to. But lets not avoid my point, that we ought to all agree (no matter who wins in 2011 Scottish Elections) on a referendum next Scottish parliamentary session!
YouGov- Sunday Times Scotland- 'How would you vote if such a referendum were held?' Survey Date: 12/13th March 2009 / sample size: 1380
I would vote Yes: (I.E. for independence) 33% No (I.E. for the union) 53%
YouGov- the Sun- 'Do you support or oppose Scotland becoming a country independent from the rest of the United Kingdom?' Survey date: 04/04/08
Support: 34% Oppose: 51%
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I hope that an independent Scotland might consider crowning our REAL monarch Francis II Duke of Bavaria, Head of the Royal House of Stuart- King over the Water? Or even better lets have a referendum on which royal house to rule an independent Scotland!
.... sigh.... breath out...
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"Is it really 10 years? A decade since the devolved Scottish Parliament was first elected or - to borrow Winnie Ewing's decidedly deft phrase - reconvened."
Brian I thought for a minute you'd intended that to be read with a Kelvinside accent :O) but I know you're no that deft.
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The alarming trends surrounding quantitative easing or called fleecing the taxpayer x2 to keep the banks and government in power. At this rate the UK economy could shrink 2x - 3x the chancellors forecast, time to abandon the rusting hulk or emigrate before the pound starts diving.
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#76 older than the Pyramids.
"The public gets what the public wants but you dont care what society needs"
Could many more be driven underground by the false promises of the nationalist and the conservatives.
"Life is a drink and you get drunk when your young and you find out life isn't like that" more lyric's from Paul Weller
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72. GrassyKnollington
Although priding myself in not being quite so right wing as many of my fellow bloggers and Tories I have to say I share a strong dislike for labourism. Liberalist ideology I can find ideologically engaging, disagreeable yet wholly relevant, but labour party ideological roots- socialism? Its out dated and undeeded. This is why the SNP will one day soon replace the Scottish Labourites as the face of centre-left Scotland, because social-democracy is relevant, scando-european in its outlook but labourism? God, the USSR is dead...
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gallantloneranger:
#73.
"What is at stake? An Independent Scotland, that could be isolated because of it's geographical position within northern Europe."
Scotland can't change her geograhpical location, so even in the United Kingdom, are we still not isolated? What's the difference now?
"A conservative uk government that wants to cut it's way out of recession
and most probably ask the question,"can the uk still afford devolution""
The Conservatives and Labour want to cut their way out of recession. It's a matter of when to introduce the cuts which is the question. How do you propose we carry on building up debt without seeing cuts in the future?
Also the people of Scotland brought up devolution and only Scotland can take that away. It did go on with the full support of the people afterall.
"The last 10 years have been fruitful in terms of growth."
It came at a cost of massive financial debt for the individuals and for the country as a whole.
It was not worth it, not one bit, especially as Scotland never grew as fast as the UK average which makes it worse.
"The next 10 years require strong, positive and responsibile solutions and that probably put's a big question mark over the conservatives and the SNP."
Why, because the Tories and SNP do not offer strong, positive and responsible solutions? You've got to explain yourself far more, so far it's ridiculous talk.
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71 Glasgowgooner
I don't vote for personalities, although it helps. I vote for what's best for Scotland and that's the SNP. NO NUCLEAR WEAPONS!
73 Gallantloneranger
Do you know Derek and Expat?
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Nu Labour = Nu Sleaze
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article6211535.ece
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78 Wan
If London gets an extra 10Bil for the Olympics why can't we keep our 500mil instead of cutting it? We should actually be gaining 1bil as we represent approx 10% of the UK. Simplez!
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#73 gallantloneranger
Welcome newbie (though perhaps not the best user-name, given derek's recent post!)
Can I suggest that you consider the following -
Norway is even more on the edge of Europe. Yet it has successfully been independent (barring the Nazi occupation) since 1901.
"The last 10 years have been fruitful in terms of growth." They have been the result of the fiscal bubble. It has now burst, and the UK has intolerable levels of debt once PFI etc are put back on the books.
Yours is clearly a pro-Labour post. It would have been more honest to have at least mentioned them - not just criticising others.
The Tories can ask all it likes about "affording devolution", but the reality of Scots constitutional law is that the people of sovereign - not Parliament. Consequently, since the Scottish Parliament was established after a referendum, only English law which doesn't run here would allow Westminster to abolish our Parliament without our consent.
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DeanTheTory:
#82.
Polls are useless, but they can guess the general public mood, but it's very close to independence. It's easier for the independence supporters to knock down the support for the Union below 50% then it is for the Union to improve their support to well over unstoppable levels.
The referendum will be very close. but the timing does not matter, but I have not see either Union supporting party offer an alternative date...
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#86 derek
Nice try silver! 8-)
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86 Gallant
That was when Labour stood for something(as Paul Weller saw it i think) and pop angst against the Tories I presume.
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Moving the nukes from Devenport to Faslane is as big a challenge to the Tories as it is to the SNP.
Don't forget they've already said that the Trident upgrade is something that should be considered as a candidate for scrapping in order to reduce public spending in the wake of Labour's colossal profligacy.
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DeanTheTory:
#87.
I'd like to point you over to America, where President Obama currently holds power.
President Obama has been described as a socialist by members of the public, critics etc but why?
By our standards President Obama follows a right wing agenda, but then it appears Obama has seen that problems within the states can not be solved through the same old policies.
So, socailist ideas have came forward, and I do not see this as a problem because we all support the NHS in our country, one of the greatest social experiments this country ever has and look at the great work that has been done since, do we regret it all? Do we seek to undo the damage of this socialist measure?
My point is, socialism is perfectly fine when it's sustained with a right balance of left-right policies. That's the direction America is taking apparently.
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93. Thomas_Porter
Very true. What I shall say is that I as a lone unionist voice: a) wants a referendum, as I believe I can make a positive case and alternative vision- and am not afraid to have the debate b) would like the referendum to happen after the 2011 Scottish Elections- mainly out of my concerns about the result being skwed by the worst of the economic downturn, I want it to be a clear fight of different visions and alternatives, not a campaign of mud slinging and fear spreading (labour...)
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Brian
I also remember the vitrolic press coverage at the time. A vote for the SNP was a vote to destroy Britan and nothing to do with an exercise in democracy. I hope that you will be examaning the role of the press at that time, the impact of ownership and the role of the owners, editors and jouralists? Perhaps you will look also at why they felt it important to deny a significant proportion of the people of this nation representation and a balanced view of what they (the SNP) were trying to say?
Something else to sort out post independance - Ownership, Access and distribution of foreign media
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#92 Oldnat
I thank you for your welcome but pause as to your bracketed comments?
Norway? has "the arc of prosperity" moved from Iceland and Ireland to Norway and not forgetting Norway's very large GDP rate giving the turmoil they had with their oil and gas revenues some-years ago. Could I suggest you phrase your teminology better.Only a suggestion though (dont go all
stroppy on me)
I know the nationalist like to use others for success stories but do you not think it appropriate that the nationalist can blow some wind into their own sails? or are you suggesting that Scotland would have a like for like living situation with Norway?. (
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DeanTheTory:
#98.
Unionist voice? I thought you were a nationalist the other week, what happened there?
It's a shame we do not have you in the Scottish Parliament, perhaps we should parachute you onto the frontlines. Yes, but no other party has brought forward their own timetable, why the SNP would put off a referendum and risk loosing power in Parliament is crazy.
It's like an invading army telling the defenders they will leave if the defenders pack up and go home...
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#71
Glasgow Gooner
So the cut in business rates applies only the the "SNP powerbase" in the north East? And the cancellation of tuition fees? and the reduced prescription charges? And the tolls on the Forth bridge are collected in the North East? And the Council tax has been frozen only in the North East? And all those A&E Hospital departments in Lanarkshire and Ayrshire not to mention the Vale hospital in Dumbarton are in the North East?
Could have fooled me.
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#82 deanthetory
No butchering. However, you need to be able to discriminate between "one off" polls, and a structured series like System 3 on the Referendum. You also need to assess the reliability of the pollsters methodology. Brownedov and I have both suggested that the YouGov weighting system has problems when applied to Scotland. You, I presume, also understand statistical significance (normally around +/- 3% on a poll of c. 1000) which your rather embarassing fellow Tory voter clearly doesn't.
Even the figures you quote, suggest a baseline of a third of Scots supporting Independence. Independence is a complex issue, and most issues will not impact on voters until a referendum is held.
Given that we both see the probability that the English will elect a Tory Government to the UK next year, it is a moot point for your side whether the referendum is held earlier or later into a Tory Government where the Labour opposition contains only a single Scot in the Shadow Cabinet (and that in the non-job of Sos for Scotland).
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97. Thomas_Porter
Sorry but I have as much respect for socialism as the peoples of eastern europe that have suffered it.
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#86 gallantloneranger
Oh dear, you seem to be a glutton for punishment!
Still no mention of the party you support, and jibes about your opponents with no evidence?
Remember "No change in the higher rates of Income Tax"?
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101. Thomas_Porter / 103. oldnat
My main point has been 1) we must have a referendum on the matter, as its the only true way to move this debate on and 2) i would like it to be held after the worst of the Brown recession, that is after 2010.
Your points are well made and true oldnat, but all I was trying to point out; as indeed you did alongside Thomas; is that all these polls cannot be the core to which we decide whether or not to hold a referendum on the matter, as Labour politicians always say stuff like "not enough Scots demand independence to justify a referendum" and the sort. I just want to hold the vote, and let Scotland move forward one way or the other.
Thomas I'd love to be parachuted into front line politics but alas I shall have to spend the next decade and a bit slowly breaking through! And yes I remain a nationalist for Scotland, and as has been explain before - by people more clear that I sometimes- my position has always been orientated around fighting for Scotland within the union, as I genuinely feel that that is the quickest and most expedient way to a. defend Scotland and her differences/identity in this increasinlgy unpredictable world b. and most importantly it so far as i see is the best way to rise our quality of live/standard of living etc... but all that is a seperate debate that we need not get back into eh?
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A thought for you oldnat- do you think as i do that a COnservative government shall make Scots Con Unionist lives easier as it will disprove the hysteria that is spread in Scotland about tory governments destroying Scotland?
We may even be able to do a 1992 in 2014 and increase our number of seats perhaps?
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#100 gallantloneranger
Norway was always mentioned as part of the "arc of prosperity" (an arc cannot be represented by only two points - that would be a straight line!)
I mentioned it as to its geographic location. Need I point out that you introduced Scotland's geographic location. It seems to be difficult for many Unionists to avoid limiting their comments to attacking others. Care to suggest the positives for your (presumably) preferred option of Scotland as part of a New Labour controlled UK?
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DeanTheTory:
#104.
I am not defending communism, which is more of an ideology rather then simple policy, but the entire world is suffering becase of extreme right wing economic policy.
Is the Chinese people better because the Chinese Government has adopted right wing policies?
The problem is not right nor left, but the leaders of a country and how far they are able to go to remain in power.
But you can't hide the evidence that the NHS has been a success and the people of this country do support the system.
Is this a one off socialist success, or not?
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DeanTheTory:
#106.
I could save us both time and copy and paste what we said to one another the last time we discussed this ;-)
You don't have to reply to what you and I have discussed before. I am not one of those people who will repeat the same old tune.
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71. GlasgowGooner
Ha, I'm not much of an Alex Neil man myself, but you are wildly off track.
The business rates cuts for example; a policy brought forward thanks to my lot; has helped small local businesses across the nation, not just in the North East and Tayside!
The Socttish Con Unionist MSPs and SNP government have done more, in their issue by issue working relationship for Scotland than 50 years of Labourism.
Council tax fees, business rates cuts all introduced by the SNP government as part of Scottish Con Unionist requests, in return the SNP got all kinds of other bills passed that was essential to them, such as council tax freeze and their finance bills (if I recall details correctly). My point is your talking nonsense:
1. you claim SNP policies have only benefited the N.E- their voters, when many of their policies have been implimented as Con policies as part of our minorty government working relationsip.
2. your assertion shows a clear lack of understanding of minority government as not all SNP bills before Parliament are actually originally SNP ones! So how on earth can they be designed to benefit the SNP core vote?
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#107 deanthetory
My guess would be that the next UK Government is going to be on a hiding to nothing.
Labour (I think) will manage to delay the appearance of the true level of PFI debt from appearing on the balance sheet until early in the next financial year (probably 7 May 2010 - the day after the GE!)
The National Debt will be so horrendous, that I don't see the next Government being able to manage a gradual restructuring towards fiscal rectitude, and is going to be forced into high levels of taxation, and public sector cuts from the beginning. Were all Tory voters in Scotland employed in the private sector, you might gain praise here - alas I suspect that many are in the public sector, and the Tories will be blamed.
Tough, I know - but that's politics.
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Oldnat
Gallant is very familiar don't you think?
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#108 Oldnat
Now that "the arc of prosperity" has lost it's three pointed tripod( Ireland and Iceland) as you point out. Does that leave you with a single point or a straight line in your third choice Norway?.
The Geographical position of Scotland may (as many experts have said)leave Scotland isolated, in terms of transport and business to the south and Europe, if indeed Independence was won.
Have you gone stroppy? are you arguing against the facts?.
Two negatives dont make a positive, that's just simple science.Maybe you would care to rearrange your applicable thoughts.
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#108, oldnat:
"an arc cannot be represented by only two points - that would be a straight line!"
Whilst the shortest distance between two points is a 'straight-line' in Euclidean geometry (relatinve to flat surfaces), the world is not flat.
(Sorry, dean, it's just not!)
Allowing for the curvature of the Earth, any two points on the planet's surface which are more than even a few miles apart cannot be joined directly (other than by going underground (sounds like a cue for a song!)).
In any case, how a person chooses to join up dots even on a map is entirely subjective. I could join Glasgow and Edinburgh by means of an arc which takes in dean's place of study (Stirling), by a straight line across Scotland, around the globe latitudinally or even longitudinally.
Plus, the concept of an arc means little unless one extends to form the circle of which it is but part (of the circumference), where any semblance of prosperity was always absent.
Better for a spiral: Ireland, Iceland, Norway and continuing on to hit the Scottish shores at Leith.
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The System 3 Poll details are now on their website. I haven't taken the age, gender, and class voting patterns, but these are the geographic data
Westminster, All, H&I, NE, Mid & Fife, Loth, Cent, Glas, West, South
S.N.P., 32%, 52%, 38%, 21%, 33%, 41%, 27%, 33%, 23%
Labour, 36%, 16%, 32%, 45%, 34%, 37%, 49%, 34%, 29%
Conservative, 19%, 14%, 16%, 20%, 20%, 9%, 14%, 22%, 34%
LD, 9%, 18%, 9%, 9%, 10%, 6%, 4%, 8%, 12%
Other, 4%, 1%, 4%, 4%, 3%, 8%, 5%, 2%, 1%
Constituency, All, H&I, NE, Mid & Fife, Loth, Cent, Glas, West, South
SNP, 41%, 63%, 45%, 36%, 41%, 45%, 32%, 39%, 36%
Labour, 29%, 13%, 27%, 38%, 25%, 35%, 40%, 31%, 21%
Conservative, 15%, 6%, 15%, 15%, 15%, 7%, 12%, 17%, 28%
LD, 11%, 18%, 12%, 6%, 17%, 7%, 7%, 9%, 14%
Other, 3%, 0%, 2%, 4%, 2%, 5%, 8%, 4%, 1%
List, All, H&I, NE, Mid & Fife, Loth, Cent, Glas, West, South
SNP, 40%, 60%, 41%, 36%, 40%, 47%, 29%, 37%, 33%
Labour, 30%, 15%, 23%, 38%, 24%, 36%, 41%, 29%, 24%
Conservative, 13%, 8%, 16%, 13%, 14%, 7%, 11%, 11%, 25%
LD, 10%, 16%, 14%, 6%, 17%, 1%, 4%, 10%, 13%
Green, 4%, 1%, 3%, 5%, 3%, 5%, 8%, 4%, 1%
SSP, 1%, 0%, 0%, 0%, 0%, 1%, 2%, 3%, 1%
Solidarity, 1%, 0%, 0%, 0%, 2%, 0%, 3%, 1%, 1%
Other, 2%, 0%, 3%, 2%, 0%, 2%, 1%, 3%, 1%
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#113 SchoolTieColours
Probably, but I'm prepared to be generous.
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#115 Older than the Pyramids
You are entirely correct, and I sit corrected.
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#80
... But she WILL!!!
Alba gu Brath!
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#116, oldnat
Good info.
It does appear from the numbers that the electorate is showing a greater level of sophistication than that for which the media is prepared to give credit: clearly a decision is being taken for whom to vote dependent upon the body to which election is taking place.
The media insist upon propounding the view that a vote for, say, SNP in a Holyrood election means that the same individuals will vote SNP to Westminster or Brussels (or is it Strasbourg?).
Well, it ain't necessarily so!
Quite sensibly, the SNP scores highly for Holyrood and less well for Westminster.
What is truly shocking, though, is the dearth of support for LibDems - largely invisible now that they have lost the profile of having Scottish Ministers among their number and with a Westminster/Party leader who is as anonymous and unrecognisable as is Tavish Scott north of the border.
How Nick Clegg must lament that Spitting Image isn't around to give him a [fictitious] personality - that programme did wonders for David Steel - and all of the Tory Cabinet, for that matter!
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#106. deanthetory
"My main point has been 1) we must have a referendum on the matter, as its the only true way to move this debate on and 2) i would like it to be held after the worst of the Brown recession, that is after 2010."
Baffled! How is this to be achieved with 60+million mouths to feed and an economy which is shrinking by the day. We don't have access to abundant natural resources in the old empire where we just went and helped ourselves in exchange for armaments to their rulers. The World order is changing and we won't be on the top table for much longer.
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gallantloneranger:
#114.
You've ignored what I said earlier, Scotland is currently in the same geographic position, what's different now then what would happen if we were independent?
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http://www.theherald.co.uk/politics/news/display.var.2506291.0.Brown_urged_to_back_down_or_face_kamikaze_Royal_Mail_reform_vote.php
Kamikaze Broon - Thatcherite to the bitter end.
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#114, gallantloneranger:
"Two negatives dont make a positive."
If you multiply them, that is exactly what they do.
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#120 Older than the Pyramids
Nice to find someone else who understands that voting patterns depend on the political dynamic of the institution people are voting for!
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The truth
"Before any swelling with pride or lip-smacking anticipation of jobs and spending, pause and consider the reality.
The Trafalgar class submarines - to be transferred from Devonport - are an updated version of the earlier Swiftsure class, only one of which has not yet been decommissioned.
Taking the Swiftsures as an example, a generous estimate of the life of a nuclear sumarine before decommissioning is 30 years.
This means that the already ageing Trafalgar fleet - commisioned in 1983, 84, 85, 87, 89, 90 and 91 - will be due to be decommissioned just as the transfer to Faslane is due to be completed in 2017. Argyll will simply be home to a collection of old submarines.
With it becoming more unlikely by the month that the new generation of Vanguards will be built to take the Trident II nuclear missiles, the operational submarines at Faslane will be the current Vanguards and the new Astute class, already over time and budget.
What Scotland is getting is not jobs and new residents in any real or lasting sense - but a fleet of elderly hulks which will have to be decommissioned here rather than in Devonport, their current home on the south coast of England.
This is the M0Ds way of operating - not in its own backyard. Rosyth, on Scotlands east coast, has already had experience of hosting dangerously rotting nuclear submarines, too unstable to be moved.
The Clyde is not used as a submarine base as a gesture of support for the Scottish economy. It has a more reliable cloud cover than any other possible subarine base in the UK, so is strategically useful.
It would be very naive to get starry-eyed in seeing three submarines in line in some sort of a military fruit machine, without seeing that their days are already numbered.
Argyll cannot be used as a dumping ground. Its human population is an ageing one. It does need an equally ageing population of nuclear submarines."
from the "For Argyll" site
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#116 thanks, shows just how regional Westminster Labour in Scotland is becoming.
That said were I a Liberal Democrat - horrible thought - I would be saying now is the time to change leaders (again, while they still can), considering that info. Highlands and Islands and ... nothing else!
Tavish and Clegg should be looking out their kevlar armour; the "nice" party can't possibly tolerate that sort of performance for much longer.
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124 Older than the Pyramids.
Double up the word? Well, first there is the "common sense" explanation:
If I say "Eat!" I am encouraging you to eat (positive), but if I say "do not eat!" I am saying the opposite (negative).
Now if I say "Do NOT not eat", I am saying I don't want you to starve, so I am back to saying "Eat!".
So, two negatives make a positive.
Phrasing by intent Pyramids: "Some people might say that i should strike for more" Paul Weller.
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Looks like Boris is needing a word in his ear.
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#116 oldnat
The Westminster Mid+Fife figures were a bit of a shock, 8-( , but when you go back to the tables, it's 46 factored up to 79. Still doesn't get Global out of Kirkcaldy though. 8-((
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#114
We look forward to new contributors to this debating chamber who are able to liven up our discourses. Sadly gallantloneranger can't.
Just another selection of juvenile points from him that wouldn't pass muster in a school debate.
Perhaps I have missed something. Maybe the goegraphic position of Scotland has moved since the days that it provided half the world with ships, steam engines and a whole range of engineering products. Maybe our whisky can't reach its markets anymore or the products of our high tech industries. Maybe the fact that we proporionately export more than the rest of UK has suddenly stopped without me being aware of it.
Or maybe the only thing that is isolated is gallantloneranger's grasp on any sort of reality
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Older than the Pyramids
120 + 125 = a positive?
(Devolution is a bit fab, but not as fab as independence :-)
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The historically elusive 'promise' of devolution was, of course, interminably exploited as a cynical vote-buyer by both the main Westminster parties for generations.
Its eventual enactment became inevitable only when, following the ravages of Thatcherism and dogged by the tenacity of the SNP, Labour's John Smith declared it "the settled will of the Scottish people", rendering its perpetual obstruction and manipulation by successive Westminster governments virtually untenable.
Even then, it firmly remained the pet project of the Labour party, who duly hijacked the (allegedly neutral) Constitutional Convention, and in turn rigged the rules of the new Parliament to ensure maximum difficulty for any other party - most specifically the vilified SNP - to win the most seats.
Throwing in a last
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bloody boris johnson
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#131 sneckedagain
Facts never persuaded derek of anything. His more literate alter ego is likely to be just as oblivious.
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#131 sneckedagain
Don't worry about it. He lives in a parallel world where he thinks he is Captain Carrot when he is actually Nobby Nobbs.
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#131 sneckedagain
"We look forward to new contributors to this debating chamber who are able to liven up our discourses. "
"This debating chamber" excuse me sneckedagain, care to re-phrase that
ridiculous statement.
Goodnight all.
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#132 aye_write
Welcome back. If you haven't been following the blog, it's been interesting to see how the guys (when they make a gender biased comment) immediately make reference to you, as if you've been busy with the spring cleaning and appear, besom in hand, to chastise them!
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Anyone else think there is an uncanny connection between -
#53 derekbarker's HI HO SILVER AWAY,
and the arrival of the equally barking #73 Gallant LONE RANGER?
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#129 That site is too close sounding to Tony Blair but then the politics is roughly the same !!!
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One thing devolution has exposed is that fairness is not a Scottish characteristic. Perhaps that is why so many have inculcated themselves into the BBC.
Even now the BBC cannot bring itself to say 'England' when Gordon Brown talks about 'the' country, or 'our' country, when in fact it is England he is messing up with his expensive, ineffective policies.
Gordon Brown even gets away with inaccurately saying in the British Parliament, the Barnett Formula is based on need, when both its architect Joel Barnett, and Sir Kenneth Calman, have explicity said it is not.
No wonder the English get such an appalling deal in this post-devolution UK when the British Parliament and the media are complicit in deceiving the English.
Most BBC employees work amd live in England so their children suffer top-up fees and their parents have to sell their homes to pay for social care. They themselves are denied benefits those in Scotland and Wales enjoy, like free prescriptions, better cancer screening, free cancer treating drugs etc.
BBC employees in England are either completely stupid to permit this effect apartheid system to go unchallenged, or they receive much better benefits that the poor beleaguered English TV licence payers are subsidising.
Which is it Brian?
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#136 god you guys missed the obvious one there ... he is actually more akin to Detritus !!! boom boom ;O)}
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#139 Angusblogg
While it is difficult to believe, it is entirely possible that there are two Labour bloggers - who are similarly minded. Makes you wonder what a constituency meeting of the LP (Scottish sub-division) would be like!
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#139 Angusblogg
A further thought. Does Tonto's pal see himself as "gallant" as in
"Unflinching in battle or action" or
"Flirtatious; amorous" or even
"man of fashion and pleasure"?
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#141 StephenGash
40 years ago Scots used to make such comments about the English. It's a very sad phase that emergent nationalities go through as they come out from under the imperial cloak.
I look forward to when all of your nation has grown up.
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#142 ubin
No, those trolls are quite inteligent in cold weather. Nobby's reliably useless whatever the situation.
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146 Aye true !
See Derek Drapers resigned as editor of the Labourlist website ... think he should give up politics and spend all his time with his lovely wife !!
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StephenGash:
#141.
"Even now the BBC cannot bring itself to say 'England' when Gordon Brown talks about 'the' country, or 'our' country, when in fact it is England he is messing up with his expensive, ineffective policies."
However, Gordon Brown is Prime Minister of the United Kingdom, plus Westminister has much control of Scotland and our finances. Is it England, and England alone that is effected or the entire United Kingdom? Infact despite removing all Labour MP's from the British Parliament, you'll still have enough English Labour MP's to control Parliament and Government. Is it Gordon Brown's fault, or the English voters for electing Labour candidates in the first place? It's simple to balme your neighbour, but you should look to the rest of England and ask yourselves why you voted in the manner in which you did the first time round.
"Gordon Brown even gets away with inaccurately saying in the British Parliament, the Barnett Formula is based on need, when both its architect Joel Barnett, and Sir Kenneth Calman, have explicity said it is not."
It's not based on need, it's based on what's spent in England. From a Scottish point of view it is fair, but it's not our fault that we have decided to invest in our health care and England has not. It's your MP's and your councillors who have let you down.
However at least your lot have avoided following the BF recently, what about the prisons and the London Olympics? Scotland should be complaining that you are ripping us off.
"No wonder the English get such an appalling deal in this post-devolution UK when the British Parliament and the media are complicit in deceiving the English."
Again, England never asked nor supported a group which would have seen an English Parliament built. Who's fault is it?
"Most BBC employees work amd live in England so their children suffer top-up fees and their parents have to sell their homes to pay for social care. They themselves are denied benefits those in Scotland and Wales enjoy, like free prescriptions, better cancer screening, free cancer treating drugs etc."
Again, who are you blaming? Your lot simply do not invest in your services! Then we see individuals complaing that the SNP are doing it all on purpose, making Scotland's services better to annoy the English...
It's not difficult. Just vote for a person who will briung you the services you want.
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The big story in Scotland today is the plan by Westminster to transfer the entire nuclear fleet to the Clyde. Labour have, as usual, claimed that 1000 jobs will be created as a result of this.
Now, each day on Radio Scotland usually sees one of the major stories from the previous day being expanded upon through an interview with a politician. This morning I was genuinely surprised that this item wasn't chosen as the interview topic.
Instead we were led to believe that a report by Audit Scotland into the state of some council buildings in Scotland was the biggest or more important item. There then followed an interview with Pat Watters, an interview that led to no-where and had Watters complaining that this report wasn't worthy of headline grabbing.
The interview did however allow the interviewer the opportunity to suggest that perhaps the council tax freeze was a reason for a lack of funds for building work and maintenance. PFI, SFT and the Westminster cut to the Scottish grant was not mentioned.
But, back to the nuclear submarines story. It has already been acknowledged by Labour that the supposed 1000 jobs includes the submariners, in other words the crews of the subs themselves. As has been mentioned by another comment on this thread, the dates are such that many of the vessels will be nearing the end of their usefull life and will be requiring decommissioning.
Moreover, the recent revelations of leaks into Scottish waters of radio active material surerly demands that this proposal be scrutinised by our media.
I'm of the opinion that the Scottish electorate won't swallow the '1000 jobs' claim and that our media are aware of this. Hence, what we are seeing in the press are headlines that dress this plan up as a kind of 'good news' story accompanied by typical quotes from Labour politicians.
Labour have actually missed a trick with this, instead of using a relatively low figure of 1000 they could have simply added another zero and made it 10,000. Well, do you honestly think that the figure would have been questioned by any Scottish journalist?
Since when was 'Crumbling Council Buildings' in Scotland a headline news item? They were crumbling last year, the year before that and the years before them - there will be crumbling buildings every year for the next ten.
Perhaps a look at the cost of PFI contracts might be a good follow up to this news !!
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#141 atephen
Check your fact beforehand please.
Even igonoring the oil revenues, Scotland does not top the list for subsidies. Some English regions receive more.
Gordon Brown's Westminister majority exceeds the total Scottish Labour MPs - English voters put Labour into power.
The Olympics is soaking up money from all sources. Only London will benefit.
The BBC is not Scottish-centric.
The reason for students paying for so much is probably down to the fact that the sheer numbers of students attending education now is far above historical levels.
Social care? My grandmother who lives in Scotland pays for her care. She does nto receive this free.
Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are not some great benefits utopias where everyone stays at home enjoying the fruits of English taxpayers. In many cases we get a poor deal. I pay the same taxes as you. I am subject to the same basic laws. The standard of healthcare is basically the same, as is education and crime is a similar issue.
Bottom line is if you think you are being poorly treated, either lobby your MP or participate in politics.
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What I remember of that auspicious election was the antipathy that the new parliament was treated with by much of the establishment. The Scottish press were, mostly, lukewarm. The English "quality papers" were dismissive. Westminster, in particular Labour MPs, regarded it as a way of getting rid of some rebellious Scots to Edinburgh.
Ten years on, Westminster is riven with sleaze scandals from cash for honours, dodgy donations and second home allowance abuse. It is also ruled by a government who gained support from less than 25% of the electorate and is increasingly out of touch with the people they represent.
Meanwhile while Holyrood has had its scandals, the building, McLeish, McLetchie and Alexander, these were very minor in comparison and dealt with quickly and effectively. The fact that no one party has been able to gain enough seats to govern on its own has meant bills have had to be negotiated, now more so than ever. The Petitions committee has allowed community groups to interact directly with the Parliament. Closer contacts with MSPs has allowed individuals to raise concerns. For these reasons and more the SP has kept in touch with the people it represents.
Whether you want independence, devolution "max" or the status quo, it would be hard to deny that we have a Parliament to be proud of. Where next? Who knows, but there is definitely no going back. Anybody in Westminster that wants to remove powers should remember that mosts Scots are proud of the SP and will not take kindly to meddling with it.
As the saying goes "Nemo Me Impune Lacessit"
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morning , listening to morning extra and all of a sudden the 1000 jobs ain't 1000 but around 400 and that includes the submariners usual c rap from labour . we should of known when ms Bailey made an appearance.
apart from anything else this is to happen in ABOUT 5 years and won't finish until 2017 ON CURRENT PLANS. anyone else spot the politics speak???
this just shows how deluded the labour party really are. they think they will still be in power in 5 years ha ha.
what peice of very bad news are they trying to boot into the long grass while we talk about this garbage???
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I remember how delighted I was when Wendy Alexander announced that the Executive was going to repeal the legislation which made gay people second class citizens - Clause 28/Section 2A. Her words exemplified a very Scottish commitment to fairness and equality. Then that other Scotland appeared which wanted to promote homophobia and make gay people third class citizens. Many of us recall those adverts which seemed to be everywhere (at the time of the privately sponsored referendum) which invited Scots to hate their fellow citizens on account of their sexuality. It was a close run thing but Labour did stay true to its basic commitment to equality. The lives of homosexual people in Scotland have been immeasurably improved as a result.
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There was also a suggestion that Faslane's ability to cope with nuclear waste was important in the final decision on where to base the submarine fleet.
"The MOD has to make long-term plans for the future and in order to do this effectively we base our final decisions on informed working assumptions," she said. "HM Naval Base Clyde has used working assumptions to inform their Future Radioactive Waste Management Capability document."
This bit from todays Hootsman makes me a tad uneasy about the whole thing. And - does anyone really know how many jobs are involved, figures seem to vary wildly.
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Had to laugh at all the fuss over Richard Branson playing a "scruffy binman" in an advert at Glasgow Central Station.
Besides, anyone who's ever stood in Glasgow Central Station knows THERE ARE NO BINS.
And regretfully we also know IF THERE WERE BINS they'd be stuffed with rubbish to the point of bursting and emptied once every six months.
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I do hope this is not to an impertinent point for the old guard.
Giving the failure of "the Scottish trust scheme" which the CBI say has cost up to 20,000 jobs in Scotland, has the responsibility of helping Scots find job's, fallen on to Westminster's hands?.
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#156 derek
Would you be happy to buy your home on your credit card?
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As, apparently, my posts are being blocked from this site ( Political balance, anyone? You can "plug" websites, insult public figures and insult fellow posters but if some BBC goon disnae like ye, yer snookered!)) I could type anything here but I must say that the "parly" has got some things right but I feel its "neither flesh nor fowl" role pleases no-one but I just wish more energy was spent on building consensus on common ground and less SNP/Lab bunfights.
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#156 Well the CBI would say that wouldn't they, since a lot of the people they represent have their noses deep in the trough of PFI. Come on release the figures and let the country know the true cost. As Oldnat pointed out in #112 the figures will be burried until after the GE and that just shows the level of deceit that's in Labour. The Tories will come into power and will have a big problem themselves .. mind you they love PFI just as much.
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#141 StephenGash,
Don't blame us Scots for you gripes... We didn't vote your unionist parties into power. If you want true autonomy and fairness, stop voting for the union and the Labour, Liberals & Conservatives parties who support it... Seeimples (wink!)
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158 Unfortunate choice of name dude .. you will be roped in with Reluctant Expat/Derek / Gallantloneranger ...how much aliases does a man need !!! As for the bun fights you have to remember Labour do not like being in opposition and the Lib Dems are too stupid to support the SNP put things through as they think their time will come. The Tories are a bit clever as they see the need to appear efficient and work to get what they want. The SNP are certainly pointing out how Scotland is being screwed but then thats good. Scottish Labour needs to break away from its southern master and go back to its roots before it will comeback in Scotland.
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Derek ,re,gallant etc, well the cbi would say that wouldn't they. it is their members that are no longer raking it in for no real effort!do you not see a trend here ?
change the rules so that 1 survey for each house sale is the norm and the estate agents and the lawyers are up in arms .
change the rules for legal aid and the lawyers are up in arms
one by one every sleazy little bit of RIP OFF BRITIAN is being challenged and replaced.
Westminster will be sorted eventually along with all the quango's full of all the politicians pals.
I for one am not prepared to leave my kids a country who is up to it's neck in debt . so you know where PFI&PPP can go and yes you are right there is no sunshine!
Sid
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Brian
According to the BBC's What the Papers say, "The Times says 10 years of devolution have failed to produce the massive improvements in public services that its supporters predicted, despite a huge increase in public spending." Will you blog on this please so we can see if the pretendy wee has done better or worse than Westminster in this and who is to blame?
An alternative, given that "The Bank of England will inject a further £50bn into the economy" and that JM Keynes said "There is no subtler, no surer way of overturning the existing basis of society than to debauch the currency", would be to blog on whether the Union is at risk from these actions by Westminster under their reserved powers.
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Gallant - please explain the benefit to the Scottish tax payer of PFI buildings which were built for under £5 billion actually costing us £30 billion?
The CBI does not like the future's trust because it means they can not rip off the tax payer as they have done so successfully with PFI in other words they will only get £5 billion for building and not the £30 billion they are creaming off just now.
Now if Gordon and his Darling were not opposing the setting up of the futures trust by the SNP for party political reasons and trying to pretend PFI is effective then the futures trust could have built 6 times the public buildings for the same money.
The CBI would have still got their £30 billion, created a damn sight more than 20,000 jobs, but their profit margin would be a lot lower because they would not be able to ramp up final costs by between 50% and 240% over the period of the PFI build contract.
SFT new Forth crossing est £2 billion, PFI estimate £11 billion ...
John Smith House needs to brief you better AM2, your old arguments still do not hold water even with your new moniker.
(PS I think you are unfair to Nobby Knobs comparing this poster with him. I would suggest this poster is more akin to 'Cut your own throat' Dibbler peddling his mankie and dubious pies.)
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Further to my #133, which was launched before completion:
Throwing in a last-minute u-turn on a plebiscite as a final blocking tactic, Labour predictably claimed the long-awaited and resounding public endorsement as their party's own achievement and magnanimous gift to the Scottish people, and confidently trumpeted that our newly conceived 'parish council' would 'kill nationalism stone dead'.
We can be enormously thankful that the hand of history placed none other than Winnie Ewing in the position to mark the occasion with her historic words as only she could, in a way befitting the momentous birth of our new Parliament.
In the wake of the debacle of the building project, however, and with the possible exception of the smoking ban and personal care for the elderly, the first two terms, dominated by a Westminster-enthralled Lib-Lab cabal, were predominantly characterised by the painstaking repression of our national aspirations, expectations and esteem as a people, ensuring that Westminster's writ and superior status were observed and maintained at all times.
Only in 2007, with the election of the only party to hold Scotland's best interests at the core of their mission, have we at last welcomed the advent of a true and democratic Scottish Government - a genuine, Scottish voice, independent of the manipulative tutelage and overbearing hegemony of Westminster - with the backbone to represent Scotland's people and place their interests to the fore at all times.
Only now have we seen something of what can be achieved by such a government - albeit by a minority, devolved government with a single-seat margin and strictly limited resources - but with the vision, tenacity and assuredness to pursue and enact inspired policy objectives, raising our national aspirations, self-belief and quality of life, even in the face of ensuing national and global crises.
Whether independence becomes a realisable goal in the near or distant future, we must aspire to full nation status as our constitutional destiny - or be resigned to drift in perpetuity along a constitutional backwater of begrudged subsidies and lost opportunities - lost to the global community of nations as a quaint 'beggar' region of someone else's country.
Scotland has always punched above her weight, but has come a long way in the past ten years. With vision, determination and unity of purpose, there need be no bounds to what we can achieve in our own right, in making a positive impact on the world's issues and world events.
Through our people's Parliament, that journey is well under way; the next vital stage is within our sights, and it is within our hands to achieve it.
Alba gu Brath!!!
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OK...I may end up regretting writing it but I've seen the light. And how? It was the "Proud Scot" interviewed on the news last night musing that "being in a union did offer the benefit of safety within a bigger country...but now that country was so much in debt, perhaps it was no longer safe". I almost exploded on the spot.
Independence now! Get ye gone. The thought that my children will be paying for the commercial folly of scottish banks and the self-destructive policies of our scottish Prime Minister and his sidekick, just so that some "smugster" in a tweed cap can muse that "maybe we should leave now". The union is simply not worth fighting for if it contains nothing but self-interested, mercenary parochialists. Go as soon as possible and take your share of the public debt with you. If anyone plays the smug card of "these are debts of the Union, not of the Scottish people", that's fine, but I will counter by suggesting that 80% of public assets are removed from Scottish soil before independence.
I worked out a long time ago that the SNP stood little chance of getting an "aye" vote from Scottish voters, but a much better chance of getting a "*** off" vote from English voters. This is presumably why the apparatchiks assigned to this blog are always going on about how bad a deal the English are getting. Well up until last night I was prepared to shoulder a "bad deal" in the interests of solidarity. I now see this as being played for an almighty chump. The SNP strategists are playing with fire because, as I have pondered in the past, if anyone seriously campaigned on this issue in England there would be real uproar and only one winner...your choice.
Now get going and I will vote for whoever pledges to preserve as much value as possible for the remainder of the UK (that's corporate speak for driving as hard a bargain as possible) even if that stirs up yet more years of resentment. What's to be gained from being reasonable? Drink your oil, eat your scenery and see how long you can smugly provide superior social welfare when you are footing the bill yourselves.
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Alright so the nationalist are against PFI/PPP and creating employment.
Do the nationalist also believe it is right and proper that over the last year, 20,000 more pensioners are living in poverty?.
You might just have to answer the questions sometimes and stop blaming everyone else bar yourselves.
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149
You've hit the nail on the head. The Subs story has already disappeared from Ceefax Scotland which I find odd or highly significant. Given that the STUC and the real Labour party in Scotland are utterly opposed to the Clyde being used as a nuclear submarine base and a huge majority of civic, church and political Scotland are of a similar view do you think there is perhaps a possibility that this has been received as the bad news story it actually is?
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#166
About as constructive as it gets from the unionist camp.
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153
I fully supported the repeal of the homophobic legislation, not least because as a teacher I was aware of considerably more misbehaviour among teachers and pupils of a heterosexual nature than of a homosexual nature and the legislation, which was crass populism at its worst, was unnecessary as well as unfair.
We live in democracy however and a significant section of the population don't agree and are entitled to their opinion. I rather think Wendy Alexander misjudged the weight of this issue to the guy in the street and for her own benefit would probably been better advised to allow a bacbencher to lead on it.
A change in the legislation to make inappropriate behaviour - homo or hetero - equally unacceptable probably would have been the way forward.
However in the final analysis much of political Scotland, not just the Labour Party, stood firm on this issue.
Thank goodness for a Scottish Parliament
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#167 gallantloneranger -
"Do the nationalist also believe it is right and proper that over the last year, 20,000 more pensioners are living in poverty?"
If it's all right with you; I'm just going to re-phrase your question so that it no longer puts the causal cart before the horse it's effecting - viz -
"Do the nationalists [Plural added because, unlike your many-aliased self, there are actually more than one of us] believe it is right and proper for this Labour government to mismanage the economy to such an extent that it has lead to a massive reduction in income for those dependent on savings (Which now generate far, far less in terms of in terms of interest payments) leading directly, over the last year, to the inexorable slide of 20,000 more pensioners [i.e. those most dependent on income from savings] into poverty?"
I think you'll find, now that it's expressed properly, the answer to your question is an emphatic "No!"
Hope that helps
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gallantloneranger:
#167.
"Alright so the nationalist are against PFI/PPP and creating employment."
This is a ridiculous comment. The SNP are against PFA/PPP because these system are corrupt, the Government at the time can hide the debts created for years and years untill they have to be shown on the books...
Tell me, what are the business opportunites in a country that will have to raise taxes further in order to cover PFI/PPP?
"Do the nationalist also believe it is right and proper that over the last year, 20,000 more pensioners are living in poverty?."
This is also ridiculous. It's almost impossible to successfully look after pensioners because of the sheer amount in comparison to taxpayers.
In an ideal world yes, we could. But this is reality, where is the money going to come from?
Anglophone:
#166.
I am glad to have you aboard, have you applied for your SNP membership yet?
You and I both know that we can not blame Gordon Brown. If we blame anyone at all, blame your Labour MP's, they are suppose to be on your side!
Shall we see you here more often supporting independence?
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#166, Anglophone
See ya!
(Wouldn't wanna be ya!)
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#166 Anglophone
"I will counter by suggesting that 80% of public assets are removed from Scottish soil before independence."
So, that's 16 clapped-out nuclear submarines, 4 clapped-out nuclear power stations and an 8 X 10 photo of Maggie Thatcher inscribed: "To my Darling Malcolm, who did all the real dirty work for me in Scotland".
You're welcome to the lot of it.
So, thanks for coming, and con't come back!
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#167 derekbarker
It's not against borrowing to create employment that I worry, it's the profits to the builders and the banks from these Ponzi schemes that turns off anybody that's not daft.
Nobody in their right mind is happy that pensioners are poor but it's that bunch of idiots in London that are in charge. They reserved the powers over the benefits system to themselves and have created another monstrous (insert suitable common name for reproductive part of male anatomy) up of looking after our National Insurance money.
Give us the powers to look after ourselves and we will, and our old ones and the ones out of work and all. If you won't let us, don't craw.
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#164 slaintemha
The proposed new forth crossing "SFT new Forth crossing est 2 billion, PFI estimate 11 billion ..."
2Bn may be very ambitious slaintemha, many people are now questioning whether a bridge across the forth is the right move, they are saying that if it's a bridge that gets the nod, then in 30 years time the new bridge will be facing the same fate as the old bridge.
What do you think about a tunnel as opposed to a bridge?.
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167 - Mr 'Cut Your Own Throat' Dibbler: you are one sad bunny.
Lets see: Labour get the hump in May 2007 because the SNP win at Holyrood so cut the Scottish Pocket money for the next four years by 12% in real terms.
The SNP re-assess their manifesto priorities and calculate that Labour Executive mismanagement means that the Scottish Government needs £500 million a year less to run. Net result of the Labour pocket money squeeze is that the SNP still get to put in place key manifesto promises including the one that Labour said could not be done - a council tax freeze.
Lard Foulkesakes tries to embarrass the SNP to prove they did not make these efficiency savings only to be hoist on his own petard as the SNP managed better savings than they had targeted. By the way so far Lard Foulkesakes nuisance questions at Holyrood have cost the Scottish tax payers £500,000.
Maybe you would like to comment on the ex-Labour MP David Marshall's rapid health decline and retiral from Glasgow North after the Sunday Times exposed the dubious £500,000 he had claimed in expenses? It appears that he is not alone on the Labour benches for mendacious use of public money.
PFI - is a fiscal nonsense no independent survey carried out has found it is anything less than a waste of public money designed to keep government borrowing of the balance sheet.
Go back to selling your dubious pies Dibbler it is your default position.
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166 anglophoney
As we say up here "get it right up ye".
Hihihihhhhhhhh!
Oh, please hurry up and tell us to (as you pit it) **** off!
The only reason there's not been an aye vote up till now is that you haven't finished exploiting our resources yet, you iriot. Its been down to the misinformation and scaremungrrring by.....ALIENS MAN!
Please just go away?
:(
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#166 Anglophone
"Drink your oil"
It's nice to see a Unionist admit for once that it is OUR oil. Funny how in such unguarded moments the truth so often slips out.
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166 Dougie-Dubh
I would have thought that you should be celebrating. I've given up on you. I'm now actively advocating independence on commercial terms ASAP! The idea on consigning my kids to decades of financial difficulties to keep you in the style to which you would like to be accustomed has finally worn thin. Find the extra cash somewhere else and don't forget to bite their hands as well.
But you are rich in resources as you often assure me. I wonder how rich you'll suddenly be when negotiating your contributions to EU stabilisation funds. Could be a hard one to square when you're requesting EU support. Perhaps your world-class financial sector can come up with the wonga. I doubt that a world-class public sector is going to be too helpful on that front. As for me now?
UK status reduced...don't care anymore
England financially hit...I doubt it, but we'll get around it, but otherwise don't care.
Scotland financially hit...don't care
Anyone aspiring to earn more than £40K leaves Scotland...don't care, in fact good, we've always profited from talented immigrants.
Charge Scottish students overseas student fees at university...sweet!
Share the output of national R&D...errr no unless you care to pay 50%
No more Scottish politicians or token TV hosts...bring it on.
Holiday in Scotland like we always do...naah..let's try somewhere new.
Tying ourselves in knots trying to placate one regional interest above all others...blessed relief
Stand by Scotland in turbulent times...you'd better ask the French, they'll probably still oblige.
Watching Scots suddenly realising that national antagonism can suddenly be a two way track...funny!
Reading the dissembling, distorted paranoia or just plain crashing ignorance of supposed patriots...an end to blethering is long overdue.
Now get back into your celtic twilight and when you're ready to issue divorce papers, don't expect to keep the house!
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#176 derekbarker
Under PFI we won't own the bridge so why worry. There won't be any traffic we'll have run out of oil. They'll just have to demolish it like all those nice nuclear subs that Global wants to pass over to Faslane to decommission, ie to be used as a nuclear waste dump. Come to the Costa Clyde and go home glowing greenly.
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I'm surprised no-one has mentioned that the westminster government has offered an additional 1Bn towards the cost of any new forth crossing.
Anglophone, I do hope that your reaction is not a reflection of the general public down south.You most certainly do make a "BIG IMPACT"
and a very interesting input. Thankyou!
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#178
Is waitingformyman yet another alias of barking derek the reluctant expat friend of tonto?
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#180 Anglophone
"No more Scottish...token TV hosts"
So now we get right down to the realy nitty gritty. It turns out you're not really "Anglophone"...you're just another Scottish-hating David Starkey wannabe.
How sad to see all your high-minded arguments were really just bile motivated by an irrational hatred of Scots.
You (used to) wonder why we want to be independent? It's to get rid of the likes of you.
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#166 Anglophone
I don't know why you would regret writing what you did. It's of a piece with your later posts before you "finally" went previously (you make more comebacks than Status Quo! - though they are better than you).
Of course, we'll take our share of the UK debt (and assets) when we leave. Civilized nations have no problem with that c/f the Czechs and Slovaks. We understand your pain at having to wake up to the realisation that England/UK is just a hideously fiscally imbalanced state which thought it clever to rely on the bubble of the finance industry for 32% of your GDP. That you can no longer pretend to be one of the "big boys" must really hurt.
Believe me we are really sorry for your predicament, but growing up is really hard. When England becomes an adult nation, instead of a spoilt teenager, we'll be the best of friends again.
PS Try manufacturing and exporting again. It's really quite a productive way forward.
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#167 gallantloneranger
derek - Try not to concatenate disconnected statements. It's a style of argument that most people have abandoned by the time they leave school.
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#181 handclapping
A remarkable decade indeed! An SoS tinged green and floating on a saucer (Eagle comic 1950s was wonderfully predictive!)
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Barking Deek - I would prefer the tunnel option rather than a third bridge.
I am awaiting to see what John Smith House pap is next posted by the gallantloner now better known as CYOT Dibbler of the dubious porky pies. So far it has been re-runs last seen about three months ago on the Glasgow Herod and Hootsmon comment pages. I think the poster is actually Dolly Draper's wee boy or maybe McBride trying to resurrect himself.
What ever, they are just spoiler posts and nothing to do with Brian's question of what devolution has achieved for Scotland. For me the big benefit is the collapse of Labour vote share and the awakening amongst Scots just to what extent Labour has patronised and ignored us. I wonder how long it will be before the Westminster vote share for the SNP exceeds Labour as it has in both constituency and list votes for Holyrood. With Brown continuing to shoot himself in the foot I guess by the end of June.
For you Scottish Tories the best thing must be that Aunty Annabelle is now the second most popular leader at Holyrood, the pity must be that it does not reflect back onto the UK party who are still despised by a large majority.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#14 hey Derek, did you know that your beloved Gordon gave up on Scotland when he went to Westminster, as have the rest of the Scottish Labour MP's
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182 gallantloneranger
No one mentioned it because it is illusory.
Of the 1 billion GBP you suggest that Westminster would "give" towards the new Forth crossing -
Through the Barnett Formula the Scottish Government's budget would be boosted anyway by 500 GBP million as part of the 5 billion GBP being allocated to the London Crossrail project. Westminster would be giving nothing, except what was due. Whether the bankrupt UK can even afford Croosrail is, of course, another question!
The UK Government also suggested that the Scottish Government would be allowed to keep any budget underspend over the new three-year spending review rather than it being returned to the Treasury, estimated to be around 400 million GBP. Quite how anyone imagines that any annual underspend (which is actually Scotland's money - it simply requires Treasury authorisation to spend it) is Westminster money assumes the delusional capacity inherent in New Labour "thinking".
The remaining 100 million GBP the Treasury suggested would be met by Scottish Government "savings". Hardly cash from Westminster.
I'm afraid your post is simply further proof of the duplicity of Westminster and its minions this side of the border.
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#176 Derek you are correct a tunnel would be better but only if its not done PFI style or the costs will just increase as 1) oops the contractor underbid every else and needs more money and will go bust or 2) the greedy shareholder of said contracter realise they dont have enough money to buy the villa in Barbados after all and need a top up !!
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Mekon
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#167. gallantloneranger
The poverty Brownie
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As well as transferring the ageing nuclear feet of subs to Scotland, perhaps Labour can think of other precarious and obscene industries that they would like to see in a modern and forward looking Scotland?
- Bear Bating
- Asbestos factories
- Denture models for U Tube
- Not forgetting sticking kids up chimneys
TDBs
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182 gallantloneranger and 191 oldnat we don't need another forth crossing.
Build a giant carpark on the Fife side and run a fleet of fast ferries to Queensferry, Granton, Leith and Portobello. Link up these spots with the brilliant new tram service that the captital city is soon to have or not.
Has nobody else thought of this.
We cut carbon emmissions, save a fortune on constuction of new bridge
and reduce traffic in Edinburgh
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Well it looks like my fond farewell posting #189 to Anglophone's tepid rant #180 has fallen foul of the moderator's. To summarise I advised Anglophone to take his self-proclaimed 'wit n wisdom' elsewhere and inflict it upon some other poor sods as he had long outstayed his welcome here.
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#186 oldnat
Concentrate and expand your limited thoughts Olnat.I put forward a clear precise question. You decide to answer with an outdated congenial response.
Try expressive literature and please stop trying to rubber stamp all thing into historical files.(the last of the Mohawknats)
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Here's an example of Labour's mindset towards what's best for Scotland and it's people.
What do you make of this folks?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHcv2v2CCQA&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.celticminded.com%2Fforums%2Fshowthread.php%3Ft%3D742994&feature=player_embedded
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199 new game.....spot the Dalek.....sorry Derek
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Anglophone:
#180.
It's interesting to note the type of arguments that Anglphone makes, it's either financial or they choose to blame Scotland.
"The idea on consigning my kids to decades of financial difficulties to keep you in the style to which you would like to be accustomed has finally worn thin. Find the extra cash somewhere else and don't forget to bite their hands as well."
Scotland can not afford to be independent. It's Scotland's fault that England does not have the same services. Scotland has failed to treat England as an equal, but we will still elect individuals who will not invest in England in which MSP's have.
"I wonder how rich you'll suddenly be when negotiating your contributions to EU stabilisation funds. Could be a hard one to square when you're requesting EU support."
Scotland would be requesting EU support, for what? Scotland, as much as other parts of the United Kingdom already recieves financial support for certain areas.
"Perhaps your world-class financial sector can come up with the wonga. I doubt that a world-class public sector is going to be too helpful on that front. As for me now?"
Is the amount of public sector jobs not increasing in England compared to the private sector jobs? Also is private sector jobs not increasing compared to the shrinking public sector jobs in Scotland?
Here we witness some old arguments on why Scotland can not afford to be independent.
"England financially hit...I doubt it, but we'll get around it, but otherwise don't care.
Scotland financially hit...don't care"
This is a progblem I had with DeanTheTory a few days ago. While discussing the financial inpact of independence, Dean insisted that Scotland would be doomed to have high taxes while I point out that Britain has increased her own taxes but apprently Great Britain will be able to fix the porblme, and Scotland can't! For some reason I never understood why England can manage and Scotland can't!
"Anyone aspiring to earn more than 40K leaves Scotland...don't care, in fact good, we've always profited from talented immigrants."
This is honesty, the Bank of England is an example of foreign individuals showing England how to forward herself.
"Charge Scottish students overseas student fees at university...sweet!"
I do not see the problem here. English students were never allowed to attend University in Scotland for free, so the ball is still in our court here. Sweet!
"No more Scottish politicians or token TV hosts...bring it on."
This is where tha nti-Scottishness shows and some contradictions made. They have highlighted the use England has had by people of different nationality improving England through the years, yet for some reason simply being a Scottish politician is a problem for Anglophone.
They have brought Scotland free education, great medical services etc But what have your lot done for you?
"Holiday in Scotland like we always do...naah..let's try somewhere new."
I would advise you to go to Germany, it's a lovely place.
"Stand by Scotland in turbulent times...you'd better ask the French, they'll probably still oblige."
I see, because we divorce you, now you wnat to ignore us? Your a horrible neighbour. I would rather stay onboard the sinking ship if you came along in a rescue boat, thank you very much!
"Now get back into your celtic twilight and when you're ready to issue divorce papers, don't expect to keep the house!"
This is where it begins to get interesting. Your political leaders, nuclear mad? Ours, well... there more down to earth...
What are the chances of your lot actually striking a good deal for England?
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Did any of the recent posters read Brian's pps? Please stay on topic for Christ's sake. His blog has plenty in it to comment on without spiralling out of control on personal disputes.
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#193, cynicalHighlander
Great pic of William Hague, next Conservative Prime Minister (Cameron'll never win, as Tory MPs will realise as the 2010 election looms ever larger on the political radar).
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#198 gallantloneranger
Concise I grant you, but only clear in the sense that muddied waters are clear. Others have already explained the silliness of it.
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By my reckoning - taking account of style, punctuation, vocabulary, etc. - the poster formerly known only as derekbarker has used six (possibly seven) different aliases in response to this blog.
Since all of the names remain extant (rather than mere changing of the 'screen-name' at various intervals, which would retrospectively change all earlier posts), he (she?) must have registered at least that many times under the different monickers.
The only other possibility is that there are six (or seven) identically-challenged individuals contributing; to the other five (or six): "You poor things...!"
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At 9:45pm on 23 Aug 2008, derekbarker wrote: "OLNAT Why is it your roll in life to bring wisdom?"
At 8:13pm on 07 May 2009, gallantloneranger wrote: "Concentrate and expand your limited thoughts Olnat."
Anyone thinking what I'm thinking?
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Brian
It really has been a remarkable decade. One of the major plus points has been the quality of SNP politicians over the period.
Unexpected tribute to Ms Sturgeon in - of all things - The New Statesman:
The star of the swine flu outbreak has surely been Nicola Sturgeon, Scotlands deputy first minister and health secretary. There is something reassuring about that soft Scottish accent I suppose it has to do with memories of Dr Finlays Casebook on television and one feels that, thanks to her charm, good sense and calm but brisk manner, we shall all be safe from this new terror. Can we put her in charge south of the border as well?
Unfortunately, she belongs to the Scottish National Party but, since outsourcing is in fashion, I see no reason why our health arrangements couldnt be delegated to the SNP. I would rather trust Sturgeon than Boots, Tesco, Richard Branson or any of the other figures proposed to run the exciting polyclinics planned by New Labour in place of GPs surgeries.
Miss Goldie and Derek Brownlie deserve credit as well for raising the conservative game.
The big question though is, why is no there no one in the Labour or Lib Dem parties who would get to deliver the New Statesman, far less appear in an article in it.
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Someone's gone crying to the moderators because I posted a link to a youtube video of a Labour MSP addressing the assembled ranks of the Orange Order. In his speech he was telling them how if someone could prove that Scotland would be better off independent that he "STILL WOULD NOT VOTE FOR IT." Shouted.
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scot2010:
#202.
"Did any of the recent posters read Brian's pps? Please stay on topic for Christ's sake. His blog has plenty in it to comment on without spiralling out of control on personal disputes."
To what are you reffering too?
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#205 Older than dumbarton
Real chuckle vision from a second year student, who like's too meddle in alcheringa.
Could the mature student try and break away from his fledgling friends and try and put his finger on a more concise reckoning.
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#210, looks like you are having a real identity crisis Derek, while we may not know all your id's on here, we do know your postings are like your beloved Labour party......
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#207 dubbieside
"The star of the swine flu outbreak has surely been Nicola Sturgeon" Is that one of your better statements. Hee, Hee, Hee.
You like this Oldnat. There's something fishy about Salmond and Sturgeon.
On a more serious note concerning the outbreak of swine-flu and the chance that it may come back in the winter time, mutated and even more serious. I ask the question, is the Scottish health board over stretching their means and viral antidotes if this swine flu does make a more serious appearance in the winter.
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#212 gallantloneranger
That would have been hilariously funny when I was in P4!
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Telegraph to Publish MPs' Expenses Disc
Could be an interesting day tomorrow.
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gallantloneranger
No not my statement, if you read it you would see the article is in "The New Statesman" ever heard of it.
By the way the last time the Hee, Hee, Hee. bit can up you were posting as Derek. Bit of an identity crisis there, Derek, gallantloneranger, AM2, Scottish Unionist.
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Just seen FMQs, and I have to say why is Alex Salmond completely unable to answer a straight question when Ms Goldie asks (quite fairly) 'what will have to be cut, due to Labour's mishandling of the economy?'.
It really does annoy me, it is almost that he's determined to ignore answering it directly in order to sustain his governments populism. He went on today about this poll and that poll, does he not realize that successful Prime Ministers, First Ministers,, Presidents etc do not live by the polls and doesn't build policies on populist sentiment.
I am just disappointed in Salmond today, he was uncharacteristically slippery I thought, usually he always at least tries to answer reasonable questions as best he could.
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Deperate Derek your identity crisis reminds me of Gordon Brown's crisis.....he doesn't know if he is coming or going.
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#212 gallantloneranger: "Hee, Hee, Hee"
#6 derekbarker: "Hee...Hee...Hee"
This is ridiculous.
What are BBC mods doing to stop people opening multiple accounts and posting using different usernames?
If people can open two accounts using different names presumably they can open more than two?
What is the upper limit on how many accounts one person can open?
Is there anything in place to stop this type of abuse?
How about some answers BBC?
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#213
A leading gag Oldnat? Doh, now! what year was it, when you (oldnat) were
in P4.
I'll guess 1951
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#217, InMyKip:
"Gordon Brown's crisis.....he doesn't know if he is coming or going."
Please let it be going, PLEASE!!!
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#214 cynicalHighlander: A teaser from the Telegraph is available here: MPs' expenses: Telegraph investigation exposes allowances.
As usual watch out for any spurious instances of <br/> that the blog software might insert in the above URL.
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Also some interesting developments reported by the Beeb: Cabinet expenses to be published.
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I have officially complained to the BBC about this derekbarker/gallantloneranger obviously being the same person posting using different usernames.
Unless the BBC takes action to stop derebarker/gallantranger debacle they will be condoning his abuse of the system.
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"Gordon Brown claimed back £6,000 after paying his brother for cleaning at his Westminster flat, it has been reported."
How much longer is the British public going to allow themselves be taken for complete mugs by these people?
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From the Beeb article in my #222 it looks like that old favourite "we acted within the rules" will be wheeled out. I note in passing that Fred Goodwin also acted within the rules, and yet he has been threatened with a retrospective change in the law to reclaim some of his pension. I wonder if the same voices will be applying the same logic to their cabinet colleagues...
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223 Bighullabaloo
I give you a sensible and very personnal link Bigguy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LsVHPXF7N0w
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It seems Brown claimed for the same plumbing work twice as well. I wonder if he'll opt for the seldom-used McLeish defence that it was "a muddle rather than a fiddle"...?!
By the by, how is it even possible to claim for the same thing twice? Usually expense claims are submitted together with the receipt aren't they? (and if not why not?) Where did he get a second receipt from?
Guido Fawkes has an amusing explanation of some of the excuses, I mean explanations that we'll no doubt be hearing over the next few days. Worth a look to decipher what they really mean!
Off to bed now, need to be up bright and early to get the Telegraph before it sells out ;o)
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#166 Anglophone
Anglophone, bitter.
You passed from denial to anger.....
:-)
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#224. bighullabaloo
"Gordon Brown claimed back 6,000 after paying his brother for cleaning at his Westminster flat, it has been reported."
That was only 1/2 the cost.
"No 10 told the newspaper that the PM shared a cleaner with his brother - an executive at EDF Energy - and "reimbursed him [his brother] for the share of the cost"
Advert for cleaner £500 per week to clean flat of 2 brothers! Apply within.
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Just seen Questiontime in Dunfermline- and can I ask for someone here to tell me that its not just me, when i ask in a state of tearful incredulity "what the hell are we doing being represented by Nadeen Dores in Dunfermline of all places!"
sob... it really was a massacre in the heart of pathetic labourite political tribalism.
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188. At 6:21pm on 07 May 2009, slaintemha wrote:
Barking Deek - I would prefer the tunnel option rather than a third bridge.
A tunnel is far more expensive than a bridge. In addition, a car tunnel does carry a lot of dangers, namely with fire. A tunnel requires ventilation, and that makes fire even more dangerous. I think it would be down to expected volumes of traffic, since a bridge would have more capacity than a tunnel. Just make sure that who constructs it gets it right.
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#32 is a fantastic post.
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for crying out loud, absolutely indefenceable, the PM plus half the cabinet.
Where do politic's go from here. to think the same people introduced the 10p debacle.
It's a massive Hi yo silver away from me! Goodbye!
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#227 forfar-loon
"it was "a muddle rather than a fiddle"...?!"
If Brown trots out the old: "I'm a numpty not a thief!" routine he can kiss his backside goodbye in Scotland never mind the UK!
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"No 10 said Mr Brown's claim was within the rules."
When are these people going to get it that just becasue they made up their own "rules" that allows them to steal public money to line their own and their relatives' pockets doesn't make it any less corrupt?
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One of the best things about devolution is watching Unionists routinely shoot themselves in both feet on blogs such as these with the myths of Union:
Scotland was bankrupt in 1707 because of Darien - no it wasn't, the Laird's were in hock up to their necks in mortgage debt to the Edinburgh middle class of the day and were bought out as part of the deal to ensure the Union happened. Scotland, as reflected in the wealth of the Burghs, was far from bankrupt
The 1707 Union brought great benefits - again, no it didn't - it killed the Scottish economy for the next 75 years and the economy has never been as strong since.
Without the Union there would have been no industrial revolution in Scotland: with out William Neilson of Queenshill's invention of the blast furnace there would have been no industrial revolution full stop and let's remind ourselves who was exporting coal from the Forth in large amounts in the 1600's to Germany and the low countries. Where would Nelson's Navy been without the unique casting techniques of the Carron Foundry which enabled the creation of guns capable of firing heavy shot?
Scotland was a backward nation before the Union: nope, Scotland had a higher level of literacy and numeracy than England in 1707, with out which the Scottish Enlightenment and its impact on Europe and the USA in the creation of modern democracy - would not have happened. With out the genius of Maxwell-Clark, Einstein (in his own words) would not have been able to define that E=mc2.
Anyone else remember being taught at school in the 60's that Malcolm the First was called a 'big head' by those around them rather than the correct Gaelic translation of 'Ceanmhor' in the context being Highest of Heads or High King.
England's Magna Carter in 1215 was important in legalising the concept that no one is above the law of the land (something Brown and his cohorts forget at their peril) while the Declaration of Arbroath in 1326 went further by placing the sovereignty of the Scottish Nation with the people and not the crown, creating the precedent that the crown only ruled with the consent of the people and by 1328 Bruce was already holding Parliaments of the Three Estates and being bound by their decisions (again Brown needs to pay heed or suffer).
No the great thing about devolution is the removal of the Unionist prism through which Scotland and its history has long been viewed and vilified.
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#180 Anglophone
Despite having left deposits on this blog since Older than the Pyramids was a wee boy, there are a number of basic concepts you just cannot or will not get.
For one, if Scotland is a burden of any kind on the English taxpayer, then our secession from the defunct union should be hailed as a godsend by you and your self-embittered ilk. The advent of Scottish independence should release you from your self-proclaimed burden. You cannot then have it all ways by claiming economic sacrifice to a self-governing nation working to prosper from its own efforts and its own abundant resources.
It was not Scotland, nor indeed the Scottish banks which brought about the economic downturn, but long-term sharp and exploitative practices in the world's overheated financial centres and state capitals - London foremost among them.
The actual Scottish portion of the bailed-out banks - even the Scottish ones - of customers and workforce actually based in Scotland - averages less than 10 percent - roughly equivalent to the contribution of the Scottish taxpayer to the bail-outs, which applied also to several non-Scottish banks, while the initial collapse, indeed, began with institutions based (well) away from Scotland.
The Scottish financial sector, of which the named banks are but a nominal part, remains a fundamentally sound and essentially reputable industry.
Gordon Brown is a British Unionist who leads the UK as such - not some daft Trojan horse for Scottish nationalism. His status as UK PM, however lamentable, is dependent on English votes, and his Scottishness is less than irrelevant in that regard.
While most people of a 'South British' perspective, such as yourself, have an irrefutable sense of their own nationhood, there are those, such as yourself, who persist in expecting Scots to view themselves, not as a people in their own right, but as a incidental outpost of Great Britain, with a skewed 'Home Counties' perspective on the entire world - an attitude abundantly evident in the disproportionately over-dominant media diet we are fed from that particular corner of South Britain.
Will these people ever grasp the concept that Scots do not view their own country through any such skewed Home Counties prism, that any so-called 'union dividend' that inevitably confers subsidy junky or second-class status is a deeply devisive and corrosive one??
Scotland needs no such 'overlords' to speak on our behalf, and will succeed infinitely better on its own assets, merits and terms.
Finally, I am confident that our nation's just cause has no need of feigned acceptance, facetious or otherwise, from anyone who purports to have 'given up' on their own cause - especially when they never had any kind of balanced perspective in the first place.
Oidhche Mhath!
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"The paper also says Gordon Brown claimed for the same £153 bill twice for plumbing work at his constituency home in successive quarters"
It just me or are these people are living in an alternative reality?
Any job I worked in they paid me a salary and if I needed a plumber at home I hired one - OUT OF THE MONEY MY EMPLOYER PAID ME AS SALARY!
I didn't get to claim additional expenses for private household repairs - why should MPs for goodness sake?!!
Now I understand why they're the only ones left in this country who still think it pays to "work".
It's just absolutely unbelievable that this has been going on all this time and none of our so-called "journalists" have never thought it important enough to alert the public about it. They must have known.
At this rate the British public are going to be calling a General Strike just to force an election - and not before time!!!
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Long time reader of the blog but this is my first time posting.
My favourite quote was from HazelNut Blears' spokesman who said the the 5K worth of furniture she had bought for her three hooses with OUR money was "reasonable"!!
The sheer gall! I take it in my next tax return I will be able to claim my new 3 piece suite is tax deductable as I have had to phone work while sitting on it several times!
Would like to see Derek Barking Mad's justification for this expenditure!
No doubt it will be Alex Salmond's fault!
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One day we will get independence, after we have been asset stripped. You wonder if we require such subsidy and are apparently a burden why we (Scotland) gets kept on as part of the UK.
It will not be up to Holyrood when Scotland gets independence, that will be granted once the House of Commons decides if we are a liability or an asset. Although over the years we have contributed plenty cannon fodder for Englands wars.
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A Remarkable Decade.
Thankfully Holyrood has a much cleaner bill of health.How anyone wish and actually vote to be part of this is simply beyond me.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/mps-expenses/5293679/MPs-expenses-Gordon-Brown-and-Cabinet-face-questions-over-claims.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/mps-expenses/5293690/MPs-expenses-Jack-Straws-confused-claim.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/mps-expenses/5293689/MPs-expenses-Andy-Burnhams-divorce-letter.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/5293147/MPs-expenses-Telegraph-investigation-exposes-allowances.html
Labour (short) Change Is What We Do.
Wansanshoo.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
A Remmarkable Decade.
Westminster ?
https://www.floridabooks.net/catalog/images/FiddlersCurse.jpg
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A remarkable decade right enough!
Lets make the next on even MORE remarkable!
I cannot beleve that everyone is making SUCH a fuss over the" small beer "claims by the Westminster MPs!
Have you NO sense of proportion?
Italian MPs , African MPs and certainly MEPs fiddle much more than Westminster MPs!
We should be proud that we're not as much of a banana Republic as the next guy!
Streuth! How can somone write as much unmitigated drivel as Nick Robinson and get away with it?
AND WE PAY HIM!
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Daily mash has an interesting idea!
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Following Expensegate and yesterday's Farce with the immigration minister, What money on Joanna Lumley standing against Broon in Kirkaldy if she doesn't get exactly what she thinks she has been promised over the Gurkhas ? That could be an interesting end to his career and definitely one for the history books :}
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I know this may be slightly off topic, but does anyone know a good cleaner?
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Diabloandco:
If I wanted a few beers to drink with a few friend guess what, that's right I would cough up the few quid it would cost.
So please explain why MP's who are paid almost 3x above the national average should be allowed to claim money for some alcohol?
I can't believe you are also suggesting we should be thankful our MP's are not like African MP's...
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237 Dougie Dubh
You're right, I'm wrong. I've been living a lie for years. Have your referendum, Vote aye and go.
Thereafter the proof will be in the pudding
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#249 Anglophone
That's the most sensible post you've ever posted.
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Thomas , sweetie, re read !
Tongue FIRMLY in cheek!
Apart from the last couple of sentences!
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"183. At 5:35pm on 07 May 2009, Older than the Pyramids wrote:
#178
Is waitingformyman yet another alias of barking derek the reluctant expat friend of tonto?"
Oh aye, that's me, guess how many others I have - YOU WISH!
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#247
I know a good one - I believe she (allegedly) does a bit of plumbing on the side too!
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Just been reading the Telegraph.
For years we've been listening to sanctimonious MPs telling us: "It's unfair to brand all of us as thieves just because of one or two greedy ones".
Turns out EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM has their snout in the trough.
What we always strongly suspected was true, really is true. The whole lot of them are rotten to the core.
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The Telegraph editorial says: "Many honourable members (of all parties, because this is, explicitly, not a party political matter) have been complicit in what amounts to an officially sanctioned and sustained abuse of public funds perpetrated against their own constituents over many years. The extent of their rapacity is astonishing."
Time to call this what it really is: fraud against the taxpayer. Arrests must be made.
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I see Gordon Brown is blaming "the system"!!!
What gall. Here you see their utter contempt for people's intelligence.
They really think we can't work out that HE IS THE ONE WHO'S SUPPOSED TO BE THERE TO CHANGE THE SYSTEM AND HE'S FAILED.
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#249 Still here, why?
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Perhaps MPs would take greater care vis-a-vis expenses/allowances if they were claimed not from the Exchequer (hence, taxpayers at large) but were instead paid from within each Member's constituency (excesses leaving the MP open to electoral retribution in the subsequent election).
Funding SHOULD be provided by the Exchequer to take account of the area of a constituency and its remoteness (esp. from London) but that would be paid to top up the constituency fund, not directly to the Member. The existence of such an amount would not be a green light to profligacy on the MPs' parts.
The constituencies should purchase/lease/rent London homes to be occupied by the respective Members - official residences, if you will - and should be in a position to benefit from capital appreciation in property values.
And as for MPs in London, so for MSPs in Edinburgh.
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#249 Anglophone
Don't be hard on yourself Anglophone. (You were sincere ;-)
Scotland would be a very unusual nation to sink because it governed itself.
It's not your preferred cup of tea. I respect that. But your thoughts have taken you a relatively short space of time - most people need decades to get this far...
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Give all the MPs free broadband, and make them vote from their (single and sole) homes.
For PMQs, etc., we can have an array of screens showing webcam images of the Members.
Then we can sell off the Houses of Parliament to the Americans, and they can re-erect the building(s) in Arizona next to London Bridge.
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#249 Anglophone
"You're right, I'm wrong. I've been living a lie for years."
We got it the first time. There is no point in responding to anything you say any more. You lost the argument. Just go away and don't come back.
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Remember & stay on topic folks.
This is about 10 years of devolution, not Westminster expenses.
I'm sure Brian will open up a blog on it soon enough - keep your powder dry.
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Looks like the English media have decided that Westminster needs a complete overhaul, good for them I say.
In one fell swoop they will destroy Labour and effectively compel Cameron to clean out the sewer and it's dwellers. This is a press doing what the press ought to do, holding our elected representatives to account, albeit belatedly.
Here in Scotland we are still subjected to a media who are no more than a defacto mouthpieces for the Unionist establishment. I am in disbelief that not one of this sorry cabal had the moral courage to take a stand against the shocking decision to lumber Scotland with the entire nuclear fleet of submarines.
The laughable suggestions that it is 'good' for the local economy is simply risible. They could just have easily said a swine flu epidemic was good for the economy as it would mean 10000 extra nurses being employed and a boom time for undertakers.
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"Downing Street says there was 'nothing wrong' with Gordon Brown's £6,500 claim to pay his brother for a cleaner."
There are no words to describe what I think of this!
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Watch the video on this website of Blears' response to reporters' questions about her expenses.
This says everything about what they think of the public's right to know how they spend our money.
Absolutely disgusting.
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Good god. Glenn Campbell "grilling" Peter Mandelson on expenses. Words can't adequately describe it.
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#261 bighullabaloo
How rude! He agrees we should vote yes in a referendum. What more? Does he have to get a St. Andrews Cross tattooed??
My father always said, when we were abroad, we were ambassadors for our country. OK, the majority of people couldn't have named Scotland! But all the reason to give the correct impression. You bighulla have done nothing with that post for your country's reputation - This is a world wide blog.
Anglophone was first mistaken, then malicious. If you are never mistaken, then you can treat someone like that.
(To the rest of the world, oldnat is in a pen at the moment, like an ant queen, while we remove his genetic material and upgrade certain bits of the Scottish population ;-)
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The most obvous benefit of ten years of devolution has been the way it has exposed the Scottish Labour Party. Having spent 80 years meekly doing what it was telt by Labour in London it suddenly found itself holding the steering wheel but it hadn't ever learned to drive.
People ask why the opposition in Holyrood keeps throwing up inadequate leaders. The answer is very simple. You cannot produce good leaders if you have no cause.
I suspect the next year will see the start of the dissolution of the Labour party in Scotland. t has lost most of its active membership and has no ideological base left from which to mount any kind of fight back. The SNP is replacing Labour and the LibDems in Scotland.
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#268 sneckedagain
Just a quick comment while I've escaped from a-w's prison (I misunderstood, when she said she wanted my genetic material).
I'm not sure that GAAberdeen is right in saying that BT will blog on this - Westminster is UK politics (not BT's brief).
It's difficult to see how, in Scotland, Westminster as an institution, or Labour as a Party can survive this expenses scandal.
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#230
I share deanthetory's puzzlement about Nadeen Dores's stint from Dunfermline but I have to say she's easy on the eye. She tried very hard but was all at sea in the Scottish bear pit. Sadly, so was Iain Grey (who came over as well-intentioned but a bit confused).
I am surprised that none of the panel actually got to grips with the DNA question. Critically it's not a matter of how long or under what circumstances DNA should be stored. The crux of the issue is that no government on this earth should hold such power over its people. It's not the laws. It's who makes the laws and what is their attitude to democracy and justice that is the real point. I'm sure Soviet Russia would have liked to have a DNA data base of everybody and North Korea.
Who in sophisticated metropolitan Europe early last century could have even imagined the Nazis.
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#268 Snecked
You're right when you say that a good opposition is needed, we have been lacking a good opposition in England for a long time now and look what happens. You also have an advantage in the fact that you're parliament is very closely balanced with representatives from the 3 main parties
We have had a party with a large enough majority to pass any and every bill they see fit, regardless of public opinion (and my have they been busy, some 4000 new bits of useless legislation!) whereas Holyrood requires cross-party debate and agreement to pass a bill
I like the fairness. Sometimes strong governance is needed but I think you get a better result from a more balanced approach. The thing to watch out for is if you do end up with one party having a massive majority in parliament, but i'm not sure that will be the case in Scotland? (what do you reckon?)
I actualy think that labour are going to lose massive support and other parties will gain in the next elections. Most might be protest votes for smaller indepedants but I think that the Lib's will make good gains from this. I can also see the Tory party picking up some of the split factions as well (probably not that much in Scotland though, given the memories from the last ones in power) but you never know
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#267 aye_write
I stand by every word.
You're talking as if these are people who deserve respect. They do not.
You're talking as if what they do here every day is harmless argument. It isn't.
Every day these people come on here living their self-admitted "lie" is another day spent depriving honest people in Scotland a better future. And they know it.
How sad it is that the real reason he did it (revealed during his fit of pique) is nothing more than a bigoted hatred of Scots.
Good riddance to him and good riddance to do-gooders like you who stick up for them.
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#269 oldnat
"I'm not sure that GAAberdeen is right in saying that BT will blog on this - Westminster is UK politics (not BT's brief)."
I see Glenn Campbell interviewing Mandelson on MPs' expenses.
Maybe you can clarify for me how this fits in with Campbell's "brief"?
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#272 bighullabaloo
It's just grown up - my whole argument for Scotland. You scathe, but yet you seek to destroy it!
Who deserves respect?
Alone with your hernia in bighulla-Scotland you would be.
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#272 bighullabaloo
PS I am a "do-gooder" - do good for Scotland. You are a "do-badder"...
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#274 aye_write
Maybe if you stopped writing things that make you sound like Yoda on acid your posts might be worth reading.
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#276 bighullabaloo
OK, "challenged"...
You don't change a grown man's mind by teaching him a lesson. If you are mean to him, even though you deem him mean, you look mean. If you want people to be in favour of independence, act like someone who can accommodate different people and different situations. Spatting like children adds to Anglophone's defence. Obviously.
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#273 bighullabaloo
I gave my opinion on BT's likely next post. It is on Fiona Hyslop. It seems I was right.
I said nothing about Glen Campbell, so your question was clearly irrelevant.
"Time for bed", said Zebedee.
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Now now bighullabaloo and aye_write
No falling out on a Friday!
I will be shortly taking myself to the pub and treating myself to a nice pint (am an hour in front over here before you start on leaving early!)
Just agree to disagree, I don't think Anglophone endeared many to his cause with the post; he's obviously annoyed about something or other and it came out as a rant (we're all guilty of this at some time or other no?) we will probably never know the reason (there might not be one of course)
Why not have a 'cyber pint' and agree to disagree?
Or yous can have a rant at the Englishman on the blog if it'll make you feel better - I don't mind!!
Cheer up folks - it's weekend 8-)
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#279 mightychewster
...something to do with his business being hit by the credit crunch, I think.....
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"267. At 1:18pm on 08 May 2009, aye_write wrote:
#261 bighullabaloo
How rude! He agrees we should vote yes in a referendum. What more? Does he have to get a St. Andrews Cross tattooed??"
********************************
Sorry A-W, you're wrong here, bighulla just sees though the rudeness of Anglo, disguised with the pretence that he/she is scincerely interested in everyones good, when in fact he/she has "revealed" his/her rather condecending smuggness more than a few times, I'm afraid. Sometimes it is quite insulting. I find him rather rude very consistently. Do you not actually read the bile that comes from him/her sometimes? You may actually being doing you're cause harm by engaging in his twisted, naive(if not arrogant), and well contrived arguments. You might give them the idea that we can be persuaded into the thought we can be bought for more gold. Lets face it that would buy a few on here, but you don't seem like one.
Idealistic v Realistic
Pesimistic v Optomistic
Materialistic v Spiritualistic
Turn the other cheek v Save your other one
I too can sound like yoda. And yoda says "he deserves it, but he always gave the immpreesion that he was just trying to aggrovate and assumed this was the kind of response he got a kick out of". Think he's reeled you in too - poor anglophoney?
And NO I'm not aka someone else. Not a scotsmans style!
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#278 oldnat
"I said nothing about Glen Campbell, so your question was clearly irrelevant."
Since you're claiming knowledge of BT's "brief" (#269) I simply asked you to clarify Campbell's "brief", so it's hardly "irrelevant".
With your obvious knowledge of BBC Scotland journalists' "briefs" it should have been a simple matter for you to do so, unless of course you're claiming knowledge you don't actually have.
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#277 aye_Write
"Spatting like children adds to Anglophone's defence."
Anglophone doesn't have a "defence". He's admitted he's 100% wrong. Obviously.
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#281 waitingformyman
Yes, of course. I am stupid for acting maturely. When will I learn to be narrow minded, petty, antagonistic, reactive and backward. We'd have got to independence so much sooner if I had.
Actually, no wonder it's taken such a bloody long time.
You teach me how to do it better then. When you held your own against Anglophone (and he took you seriously ;-), what did you do?
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#281 waitingformyman
"Reeled in". Would that be to posting sad, aggressive comments, or to portraying the cringy stereotype I'm accused of, or what? Never mind ;-)
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#281 waitingformyman
What you're seeing is just the usual "I'm better than you because I'm so magnanimous" garbage.
They're the first ones to drop the "magnanimous" facade when their own interests are threatened.
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#283 bighullabaloo
But to admit it (in whatever way ;-)deserves respect.
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#283 bighullabaloo
"Anglophone doesn't have a "defence". He's admitted he's 100% wrong."
But before he "admitted" it, you validated his scorn.
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#286 bighullabaloo
Nonsense though. As my interests it could be said could be threatened. A profile of my personal circumstances would suggest I would not be an SNP voter. But, in my favour is that I can see the entire picture. Whether or not we are "better" is up to ourselves. What do you get out of a criticism of me, I wonder. Why bother.
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#288 aye_write
"But before he "admitted" it, you validated his scorn."
All I did was point put his "scorn" is based on nothing more than bigoted hatred of Scots.
If that's "validating his scorn" then it worked, because he's been "validated" into shutting it.
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#289 aye_write
"What do you get out of a criticism of me, I wonder."
The satisfaction of seeing your initial criticism of me (#267 "How rude!") treated with the contempt it deserves.
If you don't want to be criticised then don't criticise others.
I'd have thought someone as high and mighty as you would have worked that out by now.
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285. At 3:32pm on 08 May 2009, aye_write wrote:
"You teach me how to do it better then. When you held your own against Anglophone (and he took you seriously ;-), what did you do?"
I can't remeber A-W, sorry. I can't teach you anymore than I could teach anglo. I want what I want because I just do and I am more than satisfied just to leave it at that whithout feeling the need to justify to anyone of a different oppinion, that I concluded this because I am quite clever and very civilised. You don't have to be clever and engage in useless bandying of facts and figures about money and history to convince ones self of the need for independance, just follow your heart/instinct (guess that's how I handled anglo, who tried to get me to stoop to the level he's at now). And if your heart tells you to pander to and sympathise with the likes of anglo (who also seems to think that demonstration of ones cleverness is a winner, along with his concealed spite), then yes, no wonder independance is taking so long. So practise what you keep instructing and truly do what's right. Lines HAVE to be drawn somewhere.
Just my oppinion. Not that clever and not that big, but honset and straight to the point unwavered by distractions.
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#290 bighullabaloo
No, that wasn't what validated it.
His problem really is his Britishness, it's biting him.
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#291. bighullabaloo
"The satisfaction of seeing your initial criticism of me (#267 "How rude!") treated with the contempt it deserves."
OK. I believe you.
But I don't mind if you criticise me.
I think it doesn't help the independence cause... (because it makes you appear, well, what do you think...)
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#292 waitingformyman
(Good God) I am happy for you :-)
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#293 aye_write
No, what's "biting" him is "reality".
And it's biting him exactly where I told him it would. (Use your imagination).
He's just a very early example of what they all have in store in the next few years.
The weakest ones always crumble first.
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#294 aye_write
"it makes you appear, well, what do you think...)"
It makes me appear like one of several like-minded people here who argued against Anglophone's lies and bigotry and won the argument.
If you don't like that too bad.
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Hark! the nats are throwing buns at each other, tut,tut, very childish but quite funny. To me To you chuckle chuckle.
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#292 waitingformyman
Sad to see your honest and straightforward answer being dismissed with a sarcastic: "(Good God) I am happy for you :-)" comeback.
Unfortunately when we're all being told "in my favour is that I can see the entire picture" us lowly mugs are expected to take that as a given.
I mean the rest of us "stupid" people can't possibly see "the entire picture" that the "high and mighty" see! This is the crux of the "I'm better than you because..." technique.
Just because we've got eyes in the front of our head doesn't mean we're going to be given credit for actually being able to use them!
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#298
I see derek barking's made a comeback as "colliery1".
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295. At 4:42pm on 08 May 2009, aye_write wrote:
#292 waitingformyman
(Good God) I am happy for you :-)
**************************************
Fit the hels rang we ye? I note a certain tone here, a tone I want to be independant from...actually.
And while I am here just what is this "big picture" that you seem to think you are the only one privy too? Come on now stop it, before you give the immpression that you think you are the only one who can see it.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#296 bighullabaloo (& waiting)
Now you are arguing when we both agree - quite amazing.
My comments to waiting were actually sincere! She is on my side. Anglophone accuses nats of being fanaticists and you both step up to the plate - and prove him right.
We should, I would hope, be cleverer than that.
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#301 waitingformyman
The shoulder chip (more bighulla's) is being fully exposed. I am doing a better job here than Anglophone! I told him "nats" weren't the jingoistic stereotypes he painted. Don't you want independence? (It's "EN" waiting...)
Just because a string is dangled, you don't have to play with it like kittens. Although he was misguided, Anglophone could be rational and realistic. If you wanted to beat those arguments, be more rational(and humourful)and realistic. Insults and put downs to someone who insulted you for being too willing to have a dislike of foreigners was not the best move!!
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#303 aye_write
"My comments to waiting were actually sincere! She is on my side."
Yes, yes, "waitingformy man is "on your side".
I suppose that's why "waitingformyman" wrote in #281: "Sorry A-W, you're wrong here, bighulla just sees though the rudeness of Anglo..."?
You're starting to show the sort of distortion of reality so beloved of our erstwhile unionist friend Anglophone.
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#301 aye_write
"My comments to waiting were actually sincere!"
"waitingfromyman" didn't believe that and neither do I.
"waitingformyman" wrote in #301: "I note a certain tone here, a tone I want to be independant from...actually."
What he/she meant without spelling it out is a SARCASTIC tone.
I notice you haven't responded at all to his/her request to elaborate on what the mysterious "entire picture" is that only you are smart enough to see.
Let me save you the trouble. We already know no such picture exists.
For you "moral high ground" people it's all about trying to appear more "right" than everyone else but as usual it's all twaddle.
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#305 bighullabaloo
Are you deliberately confused?
The point is, although I can hardly believe you are missing it, is she wants independence - my side is independence. In case you didn't notice it helps us to banish not revive our reputation as described by Anglophone. Some Scots actually believe him.
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#304 aye_write
"Just because a string is dangled, you don't have to play with it like kittens."
Unless, of course, the string is being dangled in front of YOU when, clearly, you just HAVE to respond to try to get the last word in.
Instead of telling everyone else what they are and what they're not maybe you should look in the mirror and BE HONEST about what you're seeing.
And before you type yet another knee-jerk response stop and think for a minute about this: Just because a string is dangled, you don't have to play with it like kittens.
Then think about what yet another indignant reply is going to say about you.
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#306 bighullabaloo
I am happy that's how waiting sees independence. That I disagree with her on Anglophone doesn't seem to matter, doesn't really need rectified, I thought.
It's telling that you both are so quick to jump to such negative conclusions. It's reinforcing Anglophone's stereotype of sad, bitter Scots.
The bigger picture? That independence isn't merely about how much personal monetary gain I will or won't receive in the following year.
It's only you that seems interested in the moral high ground. Why have you got such a big chip on your shoulder? You are Scottish, you live in a beautiful country, in the western world.....
PS Re not answering all points. Today I've been posting in a hurry.
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#308 bighullabaloo
Unless, of course, the string is being dangled in front of YOU when, clearly, you just HAVE to respond to try to get the last word in.
But that's funny bighullabaloo...Serious. You think I'm like you? I'll consider it.
you should look in the mirror and BE HONEST about what you're seeing
Alright. I want independence. I sometimes get fed up and down (sees the unintended funny ;-)arguing for it. Because the picture painted by others of Scotland is so false. It bothers me. Not for me, I can let that slide. For the boys (my kids). They are criticised when someone criticises Scots' ability to run their own country. They have had that future whipped away from them without even having the chance to prove it.
Of course I know that isn't the argument that will hold sway with many, but the whole case is varied and there is plenty to point out on every issue, not least on the biggies.
There is so much anti-independence feeling, media driven, that I feel disappointment when members of our own side let us down - it's the last thing we need.
We don't have independence yet, we must work cleverly, especially in this upcoming crucial stage, to get it. Of course that means not giving the anti-campaigners an in, well meant or no.
If that wasn't what you wanted to know, ask again, as I have merely guessed....
For indignant read disappointed.
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#309/310 aye_write
Yes, yes, I know. You're in charge of deciding who is "letting the side down" and who isn't.
You are totally incapable of seeing how patronising you sound.
You think you can go around telling everyone what they are and what they're not.
This one's rude, this one's sad, this one's bitter.
What you can't tell us, not if you're own life depended on it, is what that makes you.
Now that really is sad.
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#311 bighullabaloo
The sad thing is, it's the readers here that will actually decide.
We could bully them - or we could persuade them.
What does that make me?
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#309 aye_write
"The bigger picture? That independence isn't merely about how much personal monetary gain I will or won't receive in the following year."
So, this is the big, profound "entire picture" that the rest of us "unevolved" creatures weren't capable of seeing? Give it a rest!
It's riddled with the same sickly "holier than thou" tone in many of your posts.
You seriously think there are people on here arguing the case for independence just because they think they'll be financially better off at the end of it?
As I've repeatedly said, I'm here to oppose people who are deliberately denying our younger generation the chance of a better future.
You know nothing about me or you would realise I most probably won't be around to see it.
You are living in a wee world of your own where you see yourself as the only one doing things not "merely" for personal monetary gain.
As to "you are Scottish, you live in a beautiful country, in the western world..."
I have lived in countries all over the world, for more than a third of my life, and so I know exactly what Scotland is and what it isn't.
I find it truly insulting to have you trying to imply I'm not grateful for what we have here in this country.
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#313 bighullabaloo
What on earth are you seeking to achieve? I don't know!
To prove I am "holier than thou". "Fine, I am!" Is that better? Is it better to have an advocate of independence exposed as less than credible? What good would that do? Would it not make the case for independence by association less credible. People are looking for people to like, to trust.
You seriously think there are people on here arguing the case for independence just because they think they'll be financially better off at the end of it?
You've assumed I've thought something I didn't say. Tried and convicted already. I think some people argue against independence because they are worried they might be worse off. I think it is a red herring, but I can see why it would be of concern. So I am in favour of addressing it on the blogs.
I know how old you are. Why then do you resort to this rudeness of tone - I don't know that.
You are living in a wee world of your own where you see yourself as the only one doing things not "merely" for personal monetary gain.
Again, you are assuming I think something I didn't say. (I recall talking to several posters who say they are happy to pay excess tax just to see the money invested in Scotland - not suggesting that would be required or happen.) It seems to be just to get at me. Why?
I implied you have a needless curmudgeonly chip on your shoulder, in your over zealous responses to me, and everybody else, and the way you keep assuming I am having a dig or that I assume insulting things about you. This does the image of Scots no good.
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#314 aye_write
Even when there are other people on here telling you you're wrong about this one you still insist you're right.
You're just one of these people who isn't always right but is never wrong. A waste of time trying to reason with you.
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Bighulla
I think something got misconstrued somewhere in your previous posts. I don't think A-W meant to do you any disservice as it only happened when
one of your points was interpreted incorrectly, I think. Anyway would I be right that you want Scottish independence and if so you and A-W agree on that so kiss and make up. We need to stick together.
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#316 SchoolTieColours
"I don't think A-W meant to do you any disservice as it only happened when one of your points was interpreted incorrectly, I think."
Not true. All I did was respond to a totally unprovoked attack in aye_write's #267 ("How rude!").
You see, we have to remember: aye_write is much "better", more "profound" and "thoughtful" than the rest of us.
Oh, yes, and she's allowed to sit in judgement of everyone else but, naturally, no one else is allowed to criticise her in return.
If she has a husband I expect he goes out to the pub a lot.
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#316 SchoolTieColours
And to prove my #317 correct she'll be back here to write yet another patronising, judgmental "point by point" defence. Of that you can be certain.
Only I won't be here to read it...I'm off down the pub!
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bighullabaloo
If I believed British was best, what a field day I could have completely ridiculing you! Smallminded, sour, the "wee man syndrome" etc. Just like Anglophone said. If he was to be chased away for promoting a destructive view of Scots, I argue that you should, as being one, you are doing a much better job. (I assume he's not reading this, but if he is, he must be getting a right laugh.)
Unfortunately I believe in being Scottish as something to be proud of and retain. I sincerely hope others agree with me, and vote for independence. They won't vote for it if they are embarrassed by you.
You were rude to Anglophone. "He started it!" isn't much of an excuse.
It is not my sitting in judgement (though if my judgement was false, why would you be so bothered?) that makes me "better", it is basic common sense that shows you up.
Neither of us (husband and I) get to the pub much as we have four children under 7 - yes I am fantastic.
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God, if I were married to this "aye_write", I'd shoot myself!
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#320 bighullabaloo
Darling, there would be no need.
(Och I'm busy, I'd just hand you the gun ;-)
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#320
To misquote Winston Churchill slightly.
I think she'd let you.
:-D
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Damn. One minute too slow.
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Aye-Write
"The bigger picture? That independence isn't merely about how much personal monetary gain I will or won't receive in the following year."
I find this rude and insulting!
Money is not merely anything, its bl**dy merely nothing!(to me, and probably other genuine scots - not suggesting your not) How dare you suggest such shallowness - if this is part of your big picture well...
Sorry, also not into your style of passive resistance/turn the other cheek keeech. And you obsesevely pipe on about bighulls rudeness to a certain phoney. He got a lot less than he was ASKING for I thought, and to respond to it in a religously forgiving way would be pathetic.
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#324 waitingformyman
My point is that we should not emulate Anglophone's stereotyping of us. If you cannot understand that then I am sorry that you are hard of thinking.
And economic concerns are very real and at the forefront of a great many undecided voter's thoughts. It you cannot realise that, then I am sorry that you do not inhabit the real world.
I shall carry on the campaign to show that independence is sensible and normal and beneficial, even though you are clearly unable to help me.
Unfortunately, you sound rabid.
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#325 aye_write
Yes, everyone's "rabid" except you.
It's painful to see your own total lack of awareness of how you're actually coming across.
Really, quite ugly.
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#326 bighullabaloo
You've shown envy is a very corrosive emotion.
(Perhaps forfar-loon should do a poll to see who has been the more sane and rational ;-)
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#327
And part of the ugliness is this total inability to just accept this: other people don't all suffer from your high-minded "I'm better than you" attitude, just let it go and stop with the obsessive "I must have the last word" nonsense. You're demonstrating that everything I'm saying about you is true!
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#327
Let's see if you can prove that you don't have to have the last word...
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#328 bighullabaloo
Poor you! Everyone thinks they're better ;-)
It's all my fault. (It's all Anglophone's fault; It's all the English's fault.) This is the worst of petulant Scots, and no wonder we have the cringe. You advertise why we cannot be trusted with independence and running our own affairs. Because if nut jobs got in....
Congratulations, you've done terrific work for the other side. And you wonder why I think you are dangerously misguided.
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#329 bighullabaloo
You can have the last word. I'd rather have independence.
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#330/331 aye_write
"Everyone thinks they're better"!!?
Oh, really?
That's got to be truly one of the saddest things I've ever heard said on this board.
Everyone does NOT "think they're better"!! Not in the egotistical way you're so amply demonstrating.
Scots don't have to think of ourselves as "better" to consider ourselves "equals".
There is a difference between thinking you're "better" and having a healthy self-respect for yourself.
That is the TRUE attitude of many Scots in relation to independence from the UK.
Maybe one day you will work that out.
In all honesty I've rarely come across anyone on these boards so totally unaware of how their own behaviour says everything about them and nothing at all about the targets of their judgemental unprovoked attacks.
I've had all I can stomach of your sanctimonious "holier than thou" preaching, thanks.
I will not be responding further as I have more respect for the value of my own time.
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#332 bighullabaloo
Not sure who's point you were arguing against, but it wasn't one I'd made. But I suppose, any one will do...
I hope we get independence despite you ;-)
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#333
I see you're still proving you HAVE to have the last word, even whilst "magnaminously" granting it to your "lowly" fellow posters! (#331).
I have some bad news for you: it's not YOUR right to decide who says what or when.
Seriously, let's see if you can actually shut up, even for a minute!
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#332 bighullabaloo
Does the irony of shouting "We're equal" and then behaving like an idiot escape you?
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#335 aye_write
Nope! You can't shut up even for a minute!
It really is time for you to sit down and ask yourself why that is!
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#334 bighullabaloo
That chip on your shoulder is an entire tattie park! ;-)
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Ugh :-(
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I independence means we're going to have to put up with incessant nagging from the likes of you then you've convinced me it can't be right!
Are youy happy now? You're making me think maybe the Anglophones of this world have a point!
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Anglophone - please come back!!!
You talked rubbish but at least you argued your corner without aye_write's disgusting sanctimonious claptrap of appointing yourself judge of how everyone else should think!
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*325
You are really very rude. Possibly mad and may suffer from OCD.
I used to respect you, but I have seen now just how unmodest you are and can not possibly try to squash my thoughts into the extrememly narrow thought processes of yous.
The likes of you in power? I'd rather not have independence.
I am in the real world. All I was saying about money was that it forms no part of my desire for independance. But no, with your usual childeshness you try to turn it on its head, in an attempt to degrade - "Its all phoneys fault;its all the englishe's fault" Take your head from the hole! I blame the likes of you! Sounds like you feel like your backs against the wall and desperate, lashing out for anything - that's RABID.
I'll stop now....seftir
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#337 aye_write
That's TWO people so far you have actually turned off from independence!!
I hope you are proud of what great work YOU are doing for the cause!
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waiting and bighulla (lol!)
Why are you so intimidated (threatened?) by intelligence??!
waiting: the point was (perhaps read things twice, and check your spelling?), the likes of you in power...
bighulla: don't answer that's it's actually me who is intimidated by your intelligence...!
Would either of you agree it is a good idea to sound respectable, sensible and intelligent (not petty, ignorant, reactive and ragey) if we want to make people agree with us on independence?
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You are a total idiot.
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#344 bighullabaloo
And that is a fantabulous argument, lol!
;-)
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#345 aye_write
So glad you liked it.
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