Party warms to virulent Scott
Perhaps understandably, Tavish Scott started a little nervously.
It was, after all, his first speech to a full-blooded conference since assuming the leadership of the Scottish LibDems.
But he built it up strongly and finished with every evidence of a substantial conflagration in his innards.
They liked it, of course, and delegates were full of praise later.
However, it is now standard to describe leaders's speeches as featuring the finest oratory since Cato was a Senator.
So we may discount the more glowing reports.
Seriously, though, delegates here in Perth warmed to the address. They liked the funnies.
They liked the virulent - notably virulent - attacks on the party's rivals.
And they liked the sense of history - a theme at this conference.
Why, they even presented themselves with a cake to mark the 21st birthday of the Liberal Democrats.
Still in historical mood, I was intrigued by Mr Scott's references to "what we would do in government".
He used that phrase - or comparable formulations - at various points in his speech.
Primarily, I suppose, it was a reference to a possible hung Parliament at Westminster after the next UK General Election. I
Indeed, Mr Scott talked explicitly of Vince Cable entering Downing Street. Number 11, that is.
However, this theme could just as easily translate to the situation post the next Holyrood elections.
With Labour again? With the SNP?
There are, as noted earlier, one or two tiny obstacles in the path of that latter prospect.
Electoral arithmetic, party motivations, the small matter of an independence referendum - plus the fact that some key figures in the LibDems, notably at Westminster, would strive mightily to avoid any deal with the Nationalists, whatever the temptations.
PS: Is it not about time we had video replays to assist our referees in football?
I wasn't at Fir Park yesterday (I was here, in Perth) - but from all accounts United should have had a penalty.
In the resultant stramash (author, Arthur Montford), the Well ran up the park - or trudged through the mud - and scored a jammy winner.
I did manage to catch the rugby on the telly yesterday - and video refereeing was used to good effect. (Well, bad, actually in that it confirmed an Irish try - but you get the point.)
In football, one duff decision can determine a game, a league, an entire season.
Yet we leave it to a single guy - and force him to decide without any technological back-up whatsoever.
As ever, football is stuck in the previous century.
I'm 
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~14~RS~)
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Brian, your absolutely right on the football, but there is no way that such things will be introduced ... just as there is not realistic prospect of proportional representation at Westminster, the big players - in each case - have too much to lose by making the rules "fairer".
"A full blooded conference": I take it the Lib Dems surpassed the 250 mark at their conference then?
Now be honest, are there more people turning out to support the Liberal Democrat leadership in Perth; than there were to bolster Labour's big-wigs in Dundee?!
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Oh Brian! you are such a tease...in the webcast session with Tavish yesterday you mentioned my name but not my question about unpaid family carers....
I'm so frustrated to know what answer he would have given.
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Brian,
"As ever, football is stuck in the previous century."
And your remark concerning "a possible hung Parliament at Westminster" reminds us that the voting system for that place is stuck in the century before that.
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7944334.stm
Wonder if minimum pricing for alcohol will now be as "illegal" for Holyrood; now that the Westmidden Govt. chief advisor on alcohol related issues has now recommended it.
Wee Dougie Alexander says they will "consider his report" ... so its obviously not that "illegal", may not even be invading Iraq "illegal" (at least when Labour's doing it, you understand)!?
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"As ever, football is stuck in the previous century. "
Does that not also apply to all the Unionist parties as well.
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I watched Scott's speech and quite frankly it was dire. And what funnies, Brian? They must have passed me by. Incidentally, his references as to what they would do when they were in government - the man is delusional and living in a fool's paradise. They burned their boats when they bowed to Ming's command in 2007 not to form a coalition with the SNP and any hope of forming a government in Westminster is, again, fanciful. They are a spent force, an irrelevence and I suspect they would not have the numbers anyway to coalesce with the SNP or any other party after the elections in 2010 and 2011.
I also watched the webcast interview. When asked about accusing Alex Salmond of misleading parliament Tavish demonstrated that he is a small man, as is Gordon Brown, in that he was unable to offer an apology. Pathetic.
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Hey, who are you calling a virus? Is that allowed?
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Couple of points
Vince Cable has overdone the Financial expert bit, he has been shown to be no better than the rest of the lib dems, full of wind. He won't be chancellor, all he has shown prowess at is tracking public opinion.
Re Scotland, I can't see either the SNP or Labour making much of an effort to share power with the Lib Dems. Minority government surely must be a better option.
Re technology, Football is not Rugby. Rugby stops and starts continuosly, Football should flow. ( Dundee Utd are not great practioners of the beautiful aspect of the game) Video replays would spoil football. It is easy to point out how many decisions Refs get wrong, give credit for how many are right.
The best referees are those you don't notice. Dougie Macdonald did well in todays cup final, without technology. Sounds like hard cheese to me. It wasn't the ref who couldn't defend for both the Motherwell goals. United are on the Slide Brian.
I agree on the mud bit, For Park is awful, not a place for good football. However surely Scotland is a place for Summer Football?
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Someone once said that if Moses had been a LibDem he would have come down off Mt Sinai with ten "really helpful suggestions".
Nothing's changed.
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Brian
It is now 4 hours since you posted and more than 3 since your first poster posted. Only your contribution is visible.
Some blether!
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Brian.
Every question put to a Lib.was answered with no answer what a waste of space they are.Tavish,for a 100 years we have been the party for home rule for Scotland fine so why does he always harp on about the SNP and independence we all know that has always been their stance.I thought Prof Curtis had a good point,Tavish voted against free school meals for all as many could afford to pay,yet he is for free personal care for all.You should try and pin him on this one Brian.Saw the smug Wallace there the man who wasted money meant to end slopping out now it is all the SNPs fault and coasting the Tax payer millions.To think I used to think the Liberals had some good qualities,mind you that was when they had men like Jo Grimond,Tavish you can't hold a light to that man.
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Brian
Just above the comment box we find:-
All posts are pre-moderated. What does this mean?
The answer seems to be:- endless delays.
Post #1 has, just now, finally appeared!
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The independence referendum eh? No one wants it we are constantly told by Unionists, well no one except the Scottish electorate who are in favour by at least 2 : 1.
Anyway, I detect an orchestrated campaign by the media in Scotland against a referendum.
An article in the Sunday Times purports to have results from a yougov poll on Scottish voting intentions. The poll is nothing more than a manipulation of figures in order to attack the said referendum.
Click here
The article has a link to another article, for the Scottish editions, called 'Straw Poll'.
The first thing is that there is, aside from the numbers involved (1380), no information on the poll, questions asked etc. The poll, we are told, was held last week in the immediate aftermath of the Scottish Labour conference. The conclusions reached from this poll are, to say the least, puzzling.
We are asked to believe that Labour are all of a sudden the most popular party in Scotland, not for the Westminster elections but the Holyrood elections. This in spite of other figures suggesting Salmond twice as popular as Gray. Further, that even though support for a referendum is 2 : 1 in favour, that somehow the SNP have lost support because they advocate one in 2010.
We are also told that actual support for independence is now 33% against 53% against. This one is also puzzling; Not one month ago we have a poll that indicates independence and non independence running neck and neck. Yet we are now being asked to believe that those supporting independence have left the SNP due to it’s policy of holding a referendum !!
One of the most incredible figures from the poll is the suggestion that only 20% of Scots hold Gordon Brown responsible for the state of the UK economy and it’s banking crisis.
So, in short Salmond is more popular than Gray by over 2 : 1, yet Labour are ahead in the Holyrood vote.
38% of Scots supported independence according to the last vote, yet the SNP have apparently lost some of these voters due to their plans to hold a referendum that might achieve independence.
The SNP apparently make up over a third of the voters, yet only 20% of voters are critical of Gordon Brown.
Support for a referendum has apparently dropped from 74% to 57%, still the favoured option by 2 : 1, yet we are told that the only party advocating one has lost support because of it.
The article is littered with phrases that wouldn’t look out of place as headlines in The Scotsman; "planning a vote on separatism", "devastating blow for Alex Salmond's plans", "government that has run out of ideas and run out of steam", "The public are losing faith in the SNP", "SNP’s flagship policy is clearly now in tatters", "Salmond's reputation as a shrewd and astute economist had been dented" ……… on and on ad nauseum.
The figures appear contradictory and let's say, not a little far fetched. I would like to know what the questions were and who was asked?
I would not be at all surprised if this 'poll' features prominently in all 'Scottish' sh media outlets this week.
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Are the Lib-Dem activists and supporters happy at their parties performance ?
Was there no dissention at the conference about the state the Lib-Dems find themselves in?
Easily fooled I say if not....
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The Herald are the first to 'lift' and headline the Times 'poll'. Not unexpectadly they have placed it on their front page.
They cannot provide any analysis because the details of the poll are not available.
They appear to have taken the validity of this poll completely on trust. My view is that the figures are completely illogical for the reasons given in my pevious post.
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#15 greenockboy
re your #13, how good!
I will add that isn't it standard for the sitting government to be either suffeing a lull in popularity mid term, or be accused of it, as we have seen many times at Westminster.
(e.g the local council elections always deliver a "crushing verdict" etc.)
There of course it has much to do with Westminster's parliamentary majorities and resulting one way power street, that allows the government to do pretty much as it pleases, so by mid term it's hardly surprising it has completely lost favour.
In Scotland, we do not have such a parliamentary system, so it does seem odd that such a pattern should be seen to automatically follow here.
Me, I say it's a non-story, and concocted.
:-)
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13 GREENOCKBOY: I have to agree with all you say. It is mystifying that the SNP has dropped so much so quickly.
Another ridiculous statement is that they should not be considering a referendum during a recession. The SNP have always proposed a referendum in 2010 and when they did so there was no recession. Furthermore, I don't know about you but it seems to me that it is all the other parties who are fixated with a referendum. I haven't heard the Nats mention it unless someone else has raised the matter first. I have the feeling that the Press take us for fools but I know the SNP will have an uphill climb during the next Scottish election trying to battle against the willful misrespresentation, misreporting - no, let me just be honest and say downright lies that will be thrown at them. It was bad enough in 2007. God help us and them in 2011.
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1 poll doesn't make a significant shift in public opinion. Will be interesting to see the next couple (once free coverage conference season is over for all).
Course chances are the SNP will be back ahead ... and thats not a story.
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# 13 greenockboy
I am not surprised at the 'polls' heralded by the 'Times Online'. I have said before that this type of thing will happen, and will happen even more the closer we get to a referendum. This is typical of 'black ops': mislead the populace with spurious information (I do the Yougov polls and I've never been asked my viewpoint on that, as far as I'm aware. Don't think that our GB government is not beyond this type of dastardly propoganda; remember the lead up to the Iraq war.), then feed the populace with personal attacks upon the instigators of whichever party, organisation that you wish to discredit. I suspect that when we come close to the referendum there will suddenly be a scandal to hit the media about some member of the SNP who will have done some terrible deed and, therefore, we should not proceed with a referendum. (They can always apologise for their 'scandal' mistake after the damage is done and the referendum is over.) 'They' also have the option to 'manipulate' the votes if the referendum does not go their way. I suspect that this has already been done in the past. Strange how a by-election voting list went for a walk when someone asked to see them.
The independent-minded Scots are going to have to realise that certain members of the 'establishment' will not allow a part of 'their country' to cede from the union. Expect more of this and worse.
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Tavish at " the full blooded conference"?
Where have all the Liberals gone ?
Long time passing,etc.etc.
Tell me , when do the Labour and Liberal Parties start talking their own policies and give up talking about the SNP?
To date the opposition parties have been the ones talking about independence and not the SNP , they don't really need to since it is their reason for existence and we in the real world , as opposed to the media world ,know this.
I have been unable to find this straw poll, only comments on it from different newspapers following the usual SNP = bad anybody else = good.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#13 greenockboy
Yes, although it seems to have cheered up the Brig on the previous thread. It will certainly be interesting to see the details, but there's nothing yet on the YouGov Published Results. Maybe by the end of the day?
As I say in my #123 on the previous thread, it's not a little odd that the UK poll they did has full details including the questions.
It's odder still that there's still nothing more I can find on the pro-nuclear poll from Scotland On Sunday "report" I link to in my #92 on the previous thread.
Busy day today, but I'll hunt again tonight.
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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In the last thread I said that, "getting a decision out of the Lib-Dems is as close to nailing jelly to the ceiling as it gets."
The minimum pricing of alchohol is another fine example of this.
Nick Clegg is for it in England but Tavish Scott is against it in Scotland.
It must be something that Nick Clegg hasn't understood because I know Tavish Scott would never play politics with public health issues just because the solutions have been proposed by the SNP.
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Awa' Whigs, Awa'
Awa' Whigs, awa'!
Awa' Whigs, awa'!
Ye're but a pack o' Labour goons,
Ye'll dae nae guid at a'.
Oor thistle withered with nae care,
Frae thorny Labour roses;
An' Whigs served well as their manure,
Nae need tae hold their noses!
Awa' Whigs, awa'!
Awa' Whigs, awa'!
Ye're but a pack o' shrivelled prunes,
Ye'll dae nae guid at a'.
Oor ancient Ming's showin' signs o' rust,
If Salmond maks him crabbit.
The Clinton hand oor statesman shook,
Wad leave auld Ming sair wabbit!
Awa' Whigs, awa'!
Awa' Whigs, awa'!
Ye're but a pack o' bland buffoons,
Ye'll dae nae guid at a'.
LibDems' decay tae light-flyweight,
Has left them scarce survivin'.
Poor Tavish couldnae get much worse,
Doon tae the canvas divin'!
Awa' Whigs, awa'!
Awa' Whigs, awa'!
Ye're but a pack o' burst balloons,
Ye'll dae nae guid at a'.
Slim cogence frae Vince Cable's trap,
On independence squawkin'!
At least he came in Nick Clegg's stead,
Tae spare us mair beige-talkin'!
Awa' Whigs, awa'!
Awa' Whigs, awa'!
Ye're but a pack o' daft baboons,
Ye'll dae nae guid at a'.
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The Libs have been " preparing for government " since the non achieving Steel was a wee boy. The chances of them ever being in government except as Labour head nodders is extremely remote. As far as Cable goes, he is incapable of anything more than he is now doing, he is full of " sensible " rhetoric that is no more than impractical and meaningless waffle. Tavish Scott sadly is of the same calibre , incapable of bringing anything new or constructive to Scottish politics, confining his activities to blanket condemnation of everything the administration attempts to do.
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greenockboy
The BBC North British Branch propaganda continues.
Andrew Marr near the end of the interview asked Alex Salmond "why to you continue with a referendum when no one in Scotland wants one"
AS replied that in the same poll he was quoting earlier figures from the support for a referendum was 2 to 1.
No apology from Pravda North for quoting misleading information.
To think we continue to pay a TV tax for this!
P.S. Interview still on Pravda iplayer.
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greenockboy
If you or Brownedov get a proper breakdown of this poll can you post it either here or on [Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]so that people like me who do not understand how these polls work can get some idea about it.
Wardog used to be good at breaking down these figures. Not heard from him for a while.
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Old Tavish being "virulent" eh ?
Ah Brian, you have such a sense of humour !
Maybe your footie coverage should have preceded the Lib-Dem's conf.
After all there were more people at Fir Park, than there were at the Perth shabang !
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As far as I can establish the poll referred to in the Sunday Times relates to a tiny Scottish subset (about7% of the total contacted) of a UK wide You Gov poll - ie the figures and the conclusions drawn from those figures are completely meaningless.
The consequent pontification on them by journalists, some of them who should know better, is pretty pathetic.
I'll go with real votes in real polls for the moment - like last week's swing from Labour to the SNP in the Dundee council by-election.
To my almost certain knowledge there has been no swing to Labour from the SNP in any contest since the SNP took over in Holyrood.
I understand that here was 19 people in attendance in the hall at Perth when Ming the Meaningless addressed the LibDem conference and the hall was more than half empty when Tavish Turnip had a go.
I expect I shall be put right by on this by a LibDem contibutor to this blog.
Hello. Hello. Anybody out there?
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The BBC, the Press, the Unionists, etc., etc., everyone's a damned liar. Now YouGov is telling porkies.
Nothing's ever wrong with the poll that shows the Nats doing well, eh? The paranoia-ometer has just exploded!
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http://www.order-order.com/2009/03/rich-marks-monday-morning-view-2/
Wee Dougie.
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Brian your just jealous that the Dandy Dons are going to Europe while you will be staying at home... Sour grapes.
Come on ye reds! *;o)
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Ho-hum.... another day, another two hate figures to be added to the SNP list, Vince Cable and YouGov.
I can't wait to be told what YouGov REALLY means!
Surely Nats can see that the scatter-gun attack on all and sundry may be doing minimal damage to many, but no serious damage to any.
Could you perhaps pick out three major baddies and concentrate your fire? I mean, who is it that's really, really out to get you?
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Lib Dems should end this proportional voting panto until the down turn is over.
Fort the good of humanity!
TDBs
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brigadierjohn
Can you show me the post where anyone said YouGov was telling porkies?
sneckedagain said it looked as if the figures quoted related to a very small Scottish subset, though I would imagine any information you have on this poll sneckedagain, greenockboy etc would be happy to have, so they can go through the figures carefully. Going through the figures carefully and giving details of the poll, would be the starting point for any responsible journalist.
The paranoia-ometer has just exploded! It usually does with ever post you make.
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#30 brigadierjohn
"The BBC, the Press, the Unionists, etc., etc., everyone's a damned liar. Now YouGov is telling porkies.
Nothing's ever wrong with the poll that shows the Nats doing well, eh? The paranoia-ometer has just exploded!"
brig, you sound awfully like Derek there..... :-P
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Good to see the cybergnats are all in fine fettle today - the ranting has certainly cheered my morning up!
Ming Campbell has more foreign affairs experience in his little finger than Salmond has in his entire body - and that criticism would apply not only to Salmond but to most MSPs of all parties. I can only immediately think of three times Salmond has got himself in foregin affairs - once when he got it unpardonably wrong (Kosovo,) once when he got it right (Iraq,) and once where he was photographed with Hillary Clinton who frankly looked about as interested as a Tussaud's dummy!
Incidentally, was there ever any TV pictures of the meeting, or a US govt summary of what was discussed? How long did the meeting last - anything less than an hour is simply courtesy, I think.
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On the Referendum "Pantomime"
He's Behind You !
Oh No He's Not !
Oh Yes He Is !
Oh No He's Not !
Are you sure, Children, you wouldn't be telling fibs to Uncle Eck Now would you ? Are they behind us or not ?
If this is Monday then the Liberal policy must be, erm, maybe, erm, what do London say again ?
Sound familiar ?
The whole Vince Cable thing is getting out of hand. OK, compared to Tavish he is a model of Liberal Sanity.
Compared to Tavish.
If Vince is that good, why isn't He the leader instead of Nick Who ?
Chances of him being in Number 11 after the next Westmidden election = about the same as my Labrador.
At the risk of repeating myself for our clique of ranting cyber-natical regular readers (who, it must be noted, due to the obscene modding times are deserting this location in bulk for "points left"), the sad reality is that any Liberal leader, "UK" or "Scottish", can promise that there will be a Manned Mission to Mars crewed by the Loch Ness Monster.
Because
They
Will
Never
Have
To
Deliver
They delivered nothing other than blind subservience to prop up two NuLab administrations for their Ministerial Mondeos.
"In the interests of stability", they would never vote against the Government but instead would "fight for their policies from within a position of power".
This conference sounded the final death-knell over Liberalism in Scotland. An Irrelevant leadership talking to a diminshing membership who look like they have finally realised that The Game Is Up in Northern Britian.
To paraphrase some wee man from the Borders,
"Go back to your constituencies and prepare...... for obliteration".
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#33. brigadierjohn
Meaning!
Labour = Control freaks stealing from the poor to feed large corporations.
Conservatives = Not quite as bad as above.
Libs = Anyones guess!
Nationalists = for the people.
Your choice.
back on topic.
"Party warms to virulent Scott" does that make him toast?
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#29 snecked I think you may just be right. It appears that this on Cameron v Broon is taken from the same set of stats,
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/7944615.stm
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keithmlegg
Could you please list all Mings foreign affairs experience.
He is my MP and I must have missed all his diplomatic missions abroad on our behalf.
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#30
You've obviously missed my points.
This YouGov poll IS showing the Nats doing well and still ahead on the constituency vote and in a better position than this same poll was showing for the SNP before the Holyrood election.
But it's still meaningless as the size of the subset (165 respondents ie 5 people can make an 8% difference in the relative SNP/Labour positions) does not qualify it as a serious poll.
It's the spin I'm complaining about. Not the figures. Perhaps you hadn't noticed.
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#37.keithmlegg
Will this help with your thinking.
The Bombing of Kosovo
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Keith 37,
And your Ming has done exactly what??
I am happy to give Ming credit for his long-standing 'interest' in foreign affairs ..... but WHAT has he actually done/achieved??
He is a failed politician/political leader (just how long did his tenure as leader of the FibDems actually last??)
Whatever you might say about him, the current FM has done more for the Scottish people/Scottish governance than any of his predecessors!!
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A quick tip for any Labour/LibDem minions out there: you could boost your conference attendance like this. As well as looking good for the cameras it would also raise the average IQ of those attending ;o)
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#37 keithmlegg
Independence might be difficult for you!
How are you going to continue to run down (I assume) your country/men with such glee when Scots are seen as no lesser,and not inherently lacking, compared to Vince Cable or anyone else.
How will you cope?
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#37 keithmlegg
Ming Campbell has more foreign affairs experience...
Thankfully he remains entirely untouched by this and remains as sour as ever.
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#37. keithmlegg
I would be interested to hear you outline exactly WHAT Foreign Affairs Experience Ming Campbell has ?
According to his biography, he has been a sprinter, captain of the GB Athletics team and practiced as an Advocate from 1968 to date, (except for 2003 to 2008).
OK, just HEAPS of experience there then. Sounds like another Lawyer to me.
Oh yeah, I forgot. He was Foreign Affairs Spokesman for the SECOND-largest opposition party before becoming universally acknowledged as being a good man but one of its worst leaders in century.
Eck can't DO much about Foreign Affairs. Because we don't have our own country to form a Foreign Policy from.
Yet.
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Alex Salmond got it right with Kosovo. The only control on the Serbian Army in Kosovo at that time was the presence of OSCE (Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe) Civilian Monitors. These were withdrawn on the 20th of March 1999 before the bombing campaign started on the 24th. However it was not till the 28th that the bombing was switched from Serbia proper to military targets inside Kosovo, principally because the Americans belatedly realised that they had now unleashed full scale ethnic cleansing in the province. Before this there were refugees from the fighting between the KLA and the Serbian Army but there was no ethnic cleansing, despite the subsequent media hype. It was the bombing campaign and the withdrawal of the OSCE monitors that let the Serbian Army off the leash.
An interesting side note is that only the year before the US special envoy for Kosovo, Robert Gelbard said, “The UCK (KLA) is, without any questions, a terrorist group,' giving Serbia the green light to crack down on the KLA and ramp up the violence within Kosovo.
The end result of the bombing campaign was to create a province which is now ruled by criminal gangs dealing in drugs and women across Europe and where the KFOR force is used to protect ghettos of the remaining Serbs.
The US got its Camp Bondsteel in the Balkans though. The plans had been drawn up before the bombing started according to Colonel Robert L. McClure, writing in the engineers professional Bulletin, “Engineer planning for operations in Kosovo began months before the first bomb was dropped. At the outset, planners wanted to use the lessons learned in Bosnia and convinced decision makers to reach base-camp ‘end state’ as quickly as possible.”
Make of that what you will.
Kosovo is still having an effect today. The Russian invasion and the bombing of Georgia was a tit-for-tat retaliation for the recognition of Kosovo as an independent state by Western Europe and the US. Kosovo is still only recognised by 56 states across the world. Alex Salmond called it right on the nose.
And where do you get the idea that Ming Campbell, "...has more foreign affairs experience in his little finger than Salmond has in his entire body"? Ming Cambell has never had a position in any government in his life, far less a post in the Foreign Office.
Whenever I heard him talking on Newsnight or similar programs the only thing I gained was an understanding that my limited knowledge of foreign affairs was much better than his and the realisation that no-one could match him for waffling on without saying a word of consequence.
Ming's just annoyed because he's never been important enough to warrant a one to one meeting with anyone in the US Government.
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I forgot to put in a reference in the above comment. It was in reply to #37, keithmlegg.
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#37 keithmlegg
Now you aren't really being very nice to our First minister, are you? Tsk Tsk!
Poor Ming has never held government office, never had responsibility for anything beyond his own constituency - apart from a very short time as leader of what is a fairly irrelevant party. He also stabbed a very popular politician in the back to get that position (Good time Charlie).
His point was that the First Minister was a novice at Foreign affairs and should keep out....mmmm.... tell me, what is the experience of the current Lib Dem leader at Westminister or indeed his Foreign affairs spokesperson in foreign affairs? I'll bet that the answer if fairly short and not exactly a reason to vote for them!
Alex Salmond is a consummate politician. He is the minority leader of some domestic issues in a small country. However, he carries himself like an international heavyweight and dwarfs doddery auld wid-be but cannae-be s like Ming the meaningless anyday. Kudos to him on getting Scoyland on Clinton agenda, even for just 10 minutes.
Ming IS a pompous ass, Alex is just pompous but he's the First Minister, a position that Ming could only dream about. So perhaps is pomposity is deserved whilst Mings certainly isn't!
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#37
keithmlegg speaks of simple courtesy. What would any servant of the Union know of such things?
Perhaps he'd like to post some evidence of Unionist courtesies extended to Scotland, Scots and their democratically elected government since May, 2007!
Of course, any suggestion that our First Minister could be welcomed or afforded even the slightest respect by any representative of a foreign government must be attacked, ridiculed and derided. That is SOP for those who are desperate to maintain a thoroughly corrupt and wholly discredited UK regime. That much of it is implemented by fellow Scots is a source of great disappointment and sadness to those of us who seek to deliver Scotland from the clutches of criminals.
What, in nature or nurture, could condition a perverse preference for serfdom and eternal subjugation?
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#22 Brownedov
#13 greenockboy
The result for the YouGov poll is here.
16/03/2009 - Scottish voting intentions, economy and independence [ Scottish Sunday Times ]
Brownedov I am not a poll analyst but my attention was drawn by the last page of the pdf report.
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40. At 3:34pm on 16 Mar 2009, pattymkirkwood wrote:
"#29 snecked I think you may just be right. It appears that this on Cameron v Broon is taken from the same set of stats"
You're both clutching at straws I'm afraid.
There were two polls. One UK poll with a sample size of 1840 and a Scottish poll with a sample size of 1380.
You're confusing the two!!
http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/archives/1989
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Ming Campbells foreign affairs experience has been put in the balance and sadly found wanting!
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sneckedagain
I have just been on the YouGov site. You were right the Scottish sample was 167 people. Not the 1380 as reported in The Times.
It is interesting to compare this result with the Populas poll for The Times 6th-8th March.
This was 132 people polled, the result, voting intentions for Westminster.
SNP 46.4%
Labour 26.2%
Lib Dems 15.5%
Tory 9.5%
Green 2.4%
Some difference in the numbers in less than a week. Both small samples however.
THE BIG DIFFERENCE HOWEVER IS THE COVERAGE. VERY LITTLE IN THE MEDIA, NONE ON THE BBC, FOR THE POPULAS POLL, BUT BLANKET COVERAGE FOR THE YOUGOV POLL. I WONDER WHY.
Sorry I just had to shout, the bias in the media in Scotland is sickening.
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On the topic of The Times poll there are a number of posts questioning the validity and indeed the integrity of the figures.
I myself have posted a lengthy comment complaining that the figures are manipulated in order to provide a platform from which to attack the referendum.
My evidence for such a claim is circumstantial in nature, this is unfortunate but due entirely to the fact that there are no details published on this poll.
That notwithstanding, the circumstantial evidence is still compelling. For example, the only cast iron indication of voter intention came immediately after the Labour conference.
The council election held in the very city of the conference showed a significant increase in both the SNP's vote and their lead over Labour. This result was all the more significant given that Gordon Brown had, in his speech, very publicly highlighted the fact that the council was Labour led.
The Times poll, as has been said, appears to fly in the face of recent evidence and repeatedly appears to contradict itself. Do we honestly believe that voters supporting independence would desert the only party advocating a mechanism for achieving just that?
However, the response from Unionists on this blog is depressingly familiar. Instead of making a case for the poll and perhaps even explaining the poll's apparent contradictions, they instead resort to attacking and misrepresenting other posters and supporters of independence.
Comment 30 and 33 from brigardierjohn makes allegations against other posters. He falsely alleges that independence supporters believe that everyone else are liars, that we are paranoid that there is a hate list of individuals who disagree with our viewpoint.
Comment 37 contents himself with name calling and an attack on Salmond.
Absent from either of these comments are any arguments that support the integrity of this poll. This is probably due to the fact that none exist.
Now, that in itself doesn't mean that the poll isn't valid. However what it does mean is that the press ought not to be headlining data that cannot be corroborated.
Moreover, there are recent instances of dodgy polls making their way onto the front pages of the Scottish press. I recall that in the week prior to the Glasgow east by-election two such polls proclaiming a double digit lead for Labour were headlined in our newspapers.
In the week before the 2007 Holyrood election The Herald headlined such a poll stating that Labour were ahead.
Polls, unless accompanied by the methodology and questions used, are worthless. Until Yougov provide details of questions asked etc then the poll is worthless.
brigardierjohn might not care what the wording of questions was. Well, here's a thought for him:
Imagine an independence referendum that asked:
"Do you think that Scotland and her people deserve to be free to make their own decisions in the same way that all other proud independent nations do"
How would brigardierjohn feel?
Exactly, that's why wording is important, it can facilitate the response you desire.
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Further to #54 details for BOTH polls available at this site.
So - 33% FOR 'Independence'
53% AGAINST 'Independence'
10% Don't Know
(Can't say I'm surprised!!)
And by the way this poll with a sample of 1380 is somewhat larger than the 971 of the SNP TNS poll!!
http://www.yougov.co.uk/corporate/archives/press-archives-pol-Main.asp?dID=2009
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#37
THE GUYS THAT BROUGHT YOU IRAQ!
Actually I believe Salmond got it completely right on Kosovo. The bombing of innocent Serbs sitting in roadside cafes, television stations, the Chinese Embassy and columns of fleeing refugees was completely unacceptable and illegal under international law and the Geneva Convention.
But hey it was Nato and America wot did it so that's allright then and the sychophantic apologists that let them away with that prepared the ground for Iraq.
Ming Campbell, in common with all other LibDem leaders has no experience of Foreign Affairs or ,in fact any form of Government whatsoever.
Doesn't stop them pontificating endlessly however and they are right from time to time, particularly when their opinions reflect those of every body else or are a statement of the bleeding obvious. Much of the time hoewever they appear to hold contradictory positions on everything depending on who they are talking to and they appear to be unable to take up any position that might annoy anybody.
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42. At 4:11pm on 16 Mar 2009, sneckedagain wrote:
"It's the spin I'm complaining about. Not the figures. Perhaps you hadn't noticed"
Not in this case as you confused two polls - you'll see the separate figures in the link at #58 above
HOWEVER
There has certainly been spin and misrepresentation from the SNP see my post on Nick Robinson's
LANGUAGE OF THE DOWNTURN
1652. At 7:41pm on 05 Mar 2009, Sparklet wrote:
AW/Scot
I think we need to distinguish the political hype from the reality here.
You say there's a momentum for Independence in Scotland.
MOMENTUM FOR INDEPENDENCE ????
Compare the much published SNP figures on this issue -
Agree that Scotland should negotiate Independence
SNP....... Aug'07 ......Nov'08....... Feb'09
Yes........ 35% ..........35% ............38%
No......... 50%.......... 43%............. 40%
Showing a definite trend upwards for the YES vote.
http://www.snp.org/node/14827
Compare that to the FULL TNS polls -
TNS.... Sep'07 Dec'07 Apr'08 Nov'08 Feb'09
Sample 969.... 983..... 977..... 978...... 971
Yes....... 35%... 40%.... 41%... 35%.... 38%
No........ 50%.... 44%... 40%.... 43%.... 40%
http://www.tns-custom.co.uk/our-sector-focus/scottish-market_polling-results.aspx
Spot the difference? The SNP omitted Dec'07 and Apr'08 because they didn't quite fit the picture they wanted to create.
Go BACK to Apr'05 on the TNS polls and there was a 46% YES vote, compared to 39% NO - so the complete picture doesn't exactly show the upward trend the SNP want!! Notice too the sample size is less than 1000.
An upward trend ? No - the reality is somewhat different to the hype.
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As a regular, but silent reader, of Brian's blog, I am always amused by the way that the pro- independance(SNP)/anti-Westminster cabal tend to largely monopolise these discussions. Whatever the news, good or bad, then this is inevitably used as reasons to promote independance. I'm sure that in these troubled times that independance is the last thing on most people's minds however much some people would have us believe.
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#35 dubbieside: This will be lost by the time it's moderated, but in #13 greenockboy clearly states: "the poll is nothing more than a manipulation of figures...." and also "the figures appear..... not a little far-fetched." This is what he himself would call an unsubstantiated assertion. But it's okay when it's him, eh?
#42 sneckedagain: Ah, the spin! The figures are okay, then? Look, everyone wants to be shown in their best light and that's fair enough. Similarly, bad news has to be minimised and the source questioned. Also fair in politics.
What I was trying to say, and thought I said quite clearly, is that when Nats spin the positive polls it's taken as Gospel truth. Bad news just has to be a lie, a failure of the poll, or the bias of those who report it.
Negative polls are meaningless, positive polls show the SNP are wonderful?
Why can't Nats accept a question, a different opinion, and just answer without the abuse?
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Re rabid nats and polls
When a poll is in favour of the SNP it is a good poll demonstrating the pent up angst of the population for independence.
When it is not there are unlimited conspiracy theories and the poll results are obviously wrong.
Well maybe, just maybe the Glenrothes lesson has passed you by. There is a debate to be had and to be won.
It is not a foregone conclusion that a referendum will be held, nor that if it is it will return a yes vote.
Why not just accept that there are differing opinions as there should be in a democracy and instead of endless analysing and theorising go out and debate positively instead of rubbishing other opinions.
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#37 "Ming Campbell has more foreign affairs experience in his little finger than Salmond has in his entire body"
Hilarious! Seriously though, Ming has no experience of anything to do with international relations (both he and Salmond talked a good game before the Iraq war, thats it). Salmond by contrast has been on diplomatic visits to a number of locations - including Washington to meet the new US Secretary of State. Ming has never dealt with foreign governments in ANY official capacity.
Unless you are referring to running in the 1964 Tokyo Summer Olympics ...
"Foreign affairs" no.
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As cyber-Nuttery hits new levels of hopping-mad rage, the calming question has to be asked: Has the Independence Movement reached its high-water mark?
Despite a tissue-soft opposition, I would guess Salmond is coming under severe pressure from within, although it hasn't surfaced publicly yet. I believe the reshuffle was a response to party concerns. For example, do internal polls confirm the trend identified by YouGov? Is there wavering on the referendum. Is the dreaded question being asked: What if it's lost?
Salmond himself looks a bit subdued, as if his Presidential hopes are ebbing. For how long can Republican Rose, Neil and McAskill keep their power bases from breaking the unity facade?
It would be abnormal if factions were not saying: We have come so far - we must go for it.
Others will reply: Well, we wouldn't like to blow it now - let's see the finance thing resolved.
Unsubstantiated assertions? Certainly. Speculative? Of course. A gut instinct? Without a doubt.
I suppose the clinching argument will be the outrage, mock and otherwise, that such a suggestion might generate.
Mischief, thou art afoot.....
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"Blether"!
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Re 37
keith
Ming may have a lot of experience in talking, but what has he delivered?
Nothing
What will Nick Clegg deliver?
Nothing
What will Tavish Deliver?
Nothing
The Libdems are really an irrelevance. The experience of minority government in Scotland has probably pushed them even further out of the picture. They would have some credibility if the policy was anything other than cheap soundbites.
That is twice in a week I have posted agreeing with the nats!
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#43. cynicalHighlander
Bravo...superb research!
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brigadierjohn
BJ, on the last thread you asked for some arguments to support independence. Sorry, when you replied saying I hadn't answered, I hadn't tried to.
But here goes (even though I reckon you may rubbish what I say, but anyway... ;-).
This is just a combination of paraphrased stuff from our quirkynats forum website plus my take on it.
On some areas for starters. Proposed:
The national treasury with all the associated jobs (several thousand)
will be located in Edinburgh.
The DVLA Will be located in Stirling?
The Dept of Health - Glasgow?
The MOD - Inverness?
The Home Office - Dumfries?
The ministry of Agriculture and Fisheries - Aberdeen
The Dept. of Environment - Perth
etc.
(To be honest, I'm not sure whether this scattering is wasteful or clever and better for these communities.)
The Scottish troops stationed in Colchester, Aldershot, Worminster, Catterick will be stationed in Thurso, Ayr, Brechin, Stonehaven?
The same rule applies for RAF, Navy/ Marines therefore these troops and civil servants will be spending their hard earned in shops in these areas.
The argument: "As every 7 workers spending in an area creates 1 more job. (eg, 700 new jobs = 100 other job created, which in turn create another dozen which in turn create another 1-2). The civil service + the forces will be around 30-35,000 well paid jobs in these areas and their spending power will incrementally increase the resources of an area.
A soldier in colchester is not buying his fridge at a comet store in Brechin, his kids don't buy their CD's in Brechin either, his wife doesn't get her hair done in...etc.
Here in a simple and easy to understand format of a way to show the people of Scotland that independence IS a way of getting out of crash Gorgon's depression."
Now, I can't say here and now exactly what will happen in independent Scotland, can I? As all these decisions are for the taking once we are able to take them, ie when we are independent.
As is right, it should be the Scottish people via the electorate, elected government and referenda, that decides. This cannot be done before independence.
However, proposals and options can be made and proposed, of course.
That is why my earlier points are more of a "What do you think?" than inflexible planning.
I'd love to see the Labour, LibDem and Tory Scottish general election campaign material, and hear their ideas for Scotland. Am I likely to see it - not unless they are forced?!
Only the SNP, who may not even be in existance post independence, if the predictions of a split are correct, are likely to offer anything, and it will be lampooned for being Alex Salmond power trip material. Well, if he's not challenged??
Shame. Scotland needs a cross party, inclusive debate - that's the strength of democracy.
Having the debate before we've got the parties' prospectuses, if not a bit previous, is a bit more awkward. But I agree, not a reason not to think ahead - it's a tad exciting.
So, I'm in favour of a discussion on the future running of Scotland, of course I am. But the poor (or non-existent) quality of that at the moment isn't relevant to the decision on independence itself.
Independence won't and shouldn't be fought and won on these plans. The debate doesn't change the fact being in the Union isn't working for us.
It should be fought and won on the need for independence. The need to be able to decide such things as these ourselves.
In that regard I make the case for not staying in the Union (I'll not do it again now!)
Independence is nomality. Normality of having all the political parties in independent Scotland proposing their plans and prospecti (?) for Scotland in all areas, as political parties always do.
Therefore independence is necessary. Debate on the choices that come with it, accompany it, don't provide arguments for or against, they provide the how.
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#53, thats some strange "weighting" there if I am reading it right. More "votes" for the SNP at Holyrood - but projected behind. One less at European 93 to 92 becomes a 7% lead for Labour.
On the assumption that the under 55s vote more heavily Labour in each apparently!
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It has been revealed that Northern Ireland's First Minister and Deputy First Minister will meet President Obama.
Anyone care to take a bet that not one Scottish journalist will ask Ming Campbell if they have the exprience and capabilities to perform such duties?
I will predict that he won't face such a question.
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#54
Sorry but UK Polling Report is misreporting. I noticed that last night.
The YouGov poll was sample from Scotland was 173 weighted to 165 (whatever that may mean)
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Post 53:
Many thanks for the link to the document.
The referendum question was loaded, no doubt. It will certainly have affected the replies as well as the outcome of the next question.
The voting intentions appear straightforward though, however I was also drawn to the last page where it revealed the types of individual asked. A high proportion of over 55's was noticeable as was the political party column.
I also note that those who felt that independence would happen eventually was in the majority, 49% to 34% I think with 17% undecided.
There will be poll experts who can offer some more insight here. It is a pity that we cannot rely on our media commentators though, that is really sad.
Where these people lived would have been interesting.
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Well according to them that matters it shows that in the 2011 holyrood election if translated into seats it would be Labour 49 seats with the SNP just managing 44 seats.
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57. At 6:06pm on 16 Mar 2009, greenockboy
Well the ACTUAL question asked was
"If there is a referendum the SNP government's planned referendum would ask voters whether they agree or disagree ‘that the Scottish government should negotiate a settlement with the
Government of the United Kingdom so that Scotland becomes an independent state’."
which is very similar to the questions asked in the SNP commissioned TNS poll ie
"I AGREE/DISAGREE that the Scottish Government should negotiate a settlement with the Government of the United Kingdom so that Scotland becomes an independent state"
Which is obviously a lot less biased and misleading than the question you would prefer
"Imagine an independence referendum that asked:
"Do you think that Scotland and her people deserve to be free to make their own decisions in the same way that all other proud independent nations do"
But that is rather what we've come to expect from some of the SNP supporters on this forum.
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Comment 62 from brigardierjohn correctly points out that in my comment at 13 I wrote:
"the poll is nothing more than a manipulaiton of figures"
Replace the word 'poll' with 'article', a genuine error.
The next criticism from brigardierjohn is unjustified as I clearly write 'figures appear', which is not an assertion.
Now, if brigardierjohn and the other Uninists would please stop name calling and fabricating non existant views and address the points.
All polls are essentially meaningless, whether they suggest support for independence above or below that for the Union.
The second referendum question in the poll was loaded, no question.
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Talking of Kosovo, Blair and Brown were quick off the mark to recognise Kosovan independance as being the best option for the region and its people. The Unionists, including Thatcher, are/were always ready to support independance for other countries such as when the Soviet Union and Yugoslavia broke up. If the Unionists think its good for those nations then why is it such a bad thing for Scotland. Double-standards or is it that those nations don't contribute to Westminsters coffers?
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73. At 10:18pm on 16 Mar 2009, greenockboy wrote:
"I also note that those who felt that independence would happen eventually was in the majority, 49% to 34% I think with 17% undecided."
Not exactly surprising when the SNP have been so vocal in broadcasting an UPWARD trend in the YES vote. However the REALITY was quite different - see my post at #60 above.
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If the questions in the YouGov poll were asked in the order they appear in the report, i.e.
1. Do you think you are more worried or less worried about losing
your job than you were this time last year?
2, Considering the current economic climate, do you think you are
any LESS likely to do the following...?
3. How long do you believe it is likely to be until Britain pulls out of
the recession?
4. Would you support or oppose the idea of holding a referendum on
Scottish independence in principle?
5. In view of the economic recession would you consider a
referendum on Scottish independence being held next year…?
Then the crunch one of
6. If there is a referendum, the SNP government's planned
referendum would ask voters whether they agree or disagree ‘that
the Scottish government should negotiate a settlement with the
Government of the United Kingdom so that Scotland becomes an
independent state’.
How would you vote if such a referendum were held tomorrow?
They can be translated (in my opinion) as:
1.Doom
2.Gloom
3.Despair
4.If it were not for real, what would you say
5.More gloom linked to independence
6.You should be afraid of what the SNP are suggesting doing to the UK
If you were to put the same question 6 surrounded by questions on 5 good things that were happening right now (either linked to the Scottish Government or just good things happening in Scotland) then you would probably get a different poll outcome.
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#61 Joppa-man
Bull. It's the only way out of our troubles!
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#60 Sparklet
Which bit of polls are unreliable don't you get?
There is and, has been for some time, roughly the same numbers for and against independence, with some 20 odd per cent not sure.
Now, you will know that opinions are there for the changing during a referendum, or in fact any, campaign, and that many vote in refrenda who wouldn't otherwise bother, so with such similarity between the sizes of the camps, there is obviously all to play for.
Your hysteria seems a little out of place.
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Newsnight Scotland are up speaking on the green shoots of recovery for Labour. They base it on the YouGov poll and apparently the Glenrothes by-election. It was also interesting that Glenn Campbell during a piece on Labour's debate on the Council tax he said the SNP had failed to deliver on its local Income tax. Maybe that should have been rephrased to - The SNP could not deliver its pledge on LIT due to being a minority government.
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81. At 11:29pm on 16 Mar 2009, aye_write wrote:
I simply point out the facts AW, the hysteria is all yours.
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#53 Roll_On_2010
Thanks for the link to the results. Just got in after a long day so proper analysis will have to wait, but I agree that the p6 numbers are odd compared to the p1 column headings.
The political weightings on p1 are also very odd. 1380 total in rows 1 [All] and 2 [Unweighted] but the mainstream party Westminster Voting Intention goes down from 1149 to 1092, which implies "Other" going up from 231 to 288, or in percentages from 16.74% to 20.87%. This seems extremely unlikely. I'll research what the actual "other" figure was in 2005 tomorrow, but this seems much too high. Best stats not covered in the article are that only 40% of LibDems, 45% of NuLab and 46% of Tories think their own Scottish leader would be best FM. Most urgently, the SNP should identify and provide urgent help to the 2% of SNP supporters who think Gray would be best FM and the 1% who want Harvie as FM.
#29 sneckedagain
The Brown question doesn't appear in the Scottish poll [or at least doesn't appear in the detailed results], so it does confirm they're extrapolating on the tiny Scottish sample in the other poll.
#30 brigadierjohn
Re YouGov: Porkies, no. Economical with the truth, maybe. Adequately explained statistically, certainly not.
#40 pattymkirkwood
It certainly looks that way, given that they didn't ask that question in the Scottish-only poll. If the Thunderer has cherry-picked on that, it's probably worth going right through the numbers in the article to see which others have been cherry-picked. I haven't the concentration to do that tonight and the more relevant anomaly is the weighting against all but the LibDems and "others".
#54 Sparklet
"You're both clutching at straws I'm afraid."
No. They're right re the Brown vs Cameron figure coming from the tiny Scottish sample of the UK poll. I wouldn't go so far as to accuse the other poll of being a "rogue", but the raw numbers show an unbalanced sample and the weightings lack transparency.
#63 northhighlander
"the Glenrothes lesson"
I'm not convinced we know the answer yet, unless it is that any public "servant" appointed by NuLab needs watching like a hawk.
Goodnight all - hope to post tomorrow.
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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#62 - Brig
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362 - Brig
Actually, ALL opinion polls are meaningless. The only polls that matter are those taken at the voting booth.
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Watched Alex Salmond on the Andrew Marr show on iPlayer this evening. My goodness, the F.M. shows every time he's interviewed how articulate and on top of his game he is. Compare his performances to those of Iain Gray et al. No wonder they and the media are always sniping at him. Had to chuckle when Marr remarked on the hard time the press gives him and the SNP. Alex's reply, "Well, it's something we have to live with". And how!
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#83 Sparklet
Mm, touchiness. I sign I hit the mark. You are definately female.
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84. At 11:40pm on 16 Mar 2009, Brownedov wrote:
#54 Sparklet
"You're both clutching at straws I'm afraid."
No. They're right re the Brown vs Cameron figure coming from the tiny Scottish sample of the UK poll. I wouldn't go so far as to accuse the other poll of being a "rogue", but the raw numbers show an unbalanced sample and the weightings lack transparency.
Brownedov,
What Snecked actually said was
29. At 11:51am on 16 Mar 2009, sneckedagain wrote:
"As far as I can establish the poll referred to in the Sunday Times relates to a tiny Scottish subset (about7% of the total contacted) of a UK wide You Gov poll - ie the figures and the conclusions drawn from those figures are completely meaningless."
(no mention of Brown vs Cameron)
So, either he was confused or being deliberatley misleading, I suspect the former.
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#77 fifebirder
You are absolutely correct. The UK is bound to recognise a legitimate declaration of independence.
See my post on
http://quirkynats.freeforums.org/can-independence-be-granted-t8.html#p18
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88. At 00:12am on 17 Mar 2009, aye_write wrote:
#83 Sparklet
"Mm, touchiness. I sign I hit the mark. You are definately female."
Ah 'touchiness', AW, that's more your line - just been catching up on some of today's posts and spotted your comments on
Faustian pacts and pompous asses
#148,#149,#150,#151,#152 and #153 (all to Susan Croft)
- Quite a tantrum!!!!!!
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#91 Sparklet
Or, a good laugh. Susan is at once hilarious and a great asset to the independence movement. Where do you all put your sense of humours?
Ah, never mind.
I am composing a post for you on Europe - not just the EU. Have at last decided to enter your debate...for a reason naturally. It's on Cash cuts. You'll likely see it in the morning, so good night.
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Turns out the populus poll already referred to above was commissioned by the same newspaper as the YouGov one - seems they thought one was a bigger story than the other.
http://snptacticalvoting.blogspot.com/2009/03/snp-with-20-poll-lead-over-labour.html
Wonder why?
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By Wednesday, I'll be back in Scotland and able to take part in the debates properly!
The data from the YouGov poll is interesting - but really only on the voting intention question.
Others have mentioned the weighting factors used by YouGov. It is unfortunate that they use newspaper readership as one of their weighting factors, but only include 1 Scottish paper in their option of named papers (the Record) - hence 34% (17% in the UK) of newspaper readers are listed as "other". Since it would be reasonable to assume that those reading the other papers are almost certainly reading Scottish papers, it might also be reasonable to assume that such readers are interested in Scottish affairs.
Without access to the base data, it's impossible to know how much distortion, the application of UK weightings to Scottish polling makes. However, it seems likely to bias it (however slightly) against the SNP. Consequently the questions on independence etc, which are weighted similarly, may show greater distortion.
The Scottish figures for voting intention include Europe as well as Westminster and the two Holyrood systems. They are -
Party, Constituency, List, Westminster, Europe
SNP, 35%, 32%, 27%, 29%
Lab, 34%, 30%, 37%, 36%
Con, 14%, 15%, 20%, 18%
LD, 12%, 11%, 11%, 11%
Green, -, 5%, 2%, 2%
Soc, -, 5%, 0%, 1%
BNP, -, 0%, 1%, 1%
UKIP, -, 0%, 1%, 1%
Other, 4%, 2%, 1%, 0%
For Holyrood, there's no change from what we already knew - the SNP and Labour are neck and neck (differences of 3% or less are within the margin of error, and are only meaningful if sustained over time).
For Westminster, again nothing new - with the only realistic choice of a Government under FPTP being Labour or Tory, most Scots don't want a Tory Government (though why any of them want Brown as PM is beyond me!).
The European polling will have given Sparklet less fizz. UKIP and the BNP get 1% or less each, and the Tories (the most eurosceptic of the mainstream parties) actually lose 2% of their Westminster polling!
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92. At 01:10am on 17 Mar 2009, aye_write (U13679970)
Susan is a great asset to any debate. Her posts tend to be thoughtful and well-considered nor does she like distortion or misrepresentation.
Her posts obviously impressed you else you wouldn't have copied them!!
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#77
Kosovo etc were basically forced into their situations. Scotland is different, that is why it is harder to force through independence.
#94
Interesting polls. But it shows that the SNP still have to keep the pressure up.
I worry about the Westminster General Election though. While Brown will get wiped out in some areas I wonder if Labour will cling on to enough seats to prevent the Tories having a decent working majority.
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#95 Sparklet
Correct! That's what I said in my #78 on 'Faustian pacts...'
"I used your post as I thought it was quite good."
Keep up!
And I only copied that one bit of a post of hers only - she got a wee bit carried away, bless. (She's not that good!)
Do you want to let it drop now?
;-)
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#69 aye_write: What a star you are - for my arguments! So all the great Offices of State are going to be recreated all over Scotland, and their work duplicated? Cost?
So, it's not to be a Scottish Defence Force for ceremonial and peace-keeping duties - the whole Army is coming home? Cost?
And the "Scots" Navy and Air Force?
And the rest? "We can't say until we are independent!!!!!"
You called it a "combination of stuff paraphrased from quirky Nats websites." I believe you have a talent for pinching stuff. :-)
Really, aye_write, you have to get out more. Stop reading that guff and mix with a few non-Nats. Talk about the weather, or babies or something to take your mind off all this.
You're coming across as a 1970s loony Nat, a throwback to the days when "Scotland's Oil" would gold plate our taps and line our coats with mink.
Just stop and think for a minute before you regale us with a new, long, long chapter from Barbara Cartland's selected fantasies.
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#76 greenockboy: You have edited the quote I used "the figures appear... not a little far fetched." Far fetched? You mean you don't accept they were properly obtained?
I wonder if you would allow me "a genuine error" or accuse me of twisting things to my point of view?
Double standards - we all have them occasionally.
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49 DougtheDoug
In defence of Ming (he's only a) Campbell, as a long serving shadow spokesman and main party leader he would have been privy to a great deal of foreign affairs briefings from authoritative sources. I think that I would trust his judgement above that of Alec Salmond who, let's remember, when Kosovo and related events was "kicking off", was in the political wilderness and a regular guest presenter on Have I Got News For You (rather like the present Shadow Foreign Secretary before you remind me;-)).
The fact that Alec has 10 minute meeting with Hilary (I wonder if he asked for her autograph?) does not transform him into a diplomatic colossus. I suspect that as the bulk of his "foreign policy" experience is based around complaint and picking synthetic fights with Westminster, he might struggle stepping up into a bigger league.
In February 2003 I flew on a plane to Damascus. Getting into a conversation with the Syrian gentleman next to me, mainly about the clearly impending invasion of Iraq, he suddenly waxed lyrical about the "American" intervention in Kosovo. Apparently it was a preconceived assault on Albanian muslims (there was me thinking that it was to protect these people) and that the Americans only "won" thanks to the use of nuclear weapons!
I can now see that you probably get your international news from the same sites as my Syrian friend;-)
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#98 brigadierjohn
Well, I bothered to answer you, in the spirit of debate.
You didn't debate.
I got one thing right - you rubbished my post...........and my views, and my em, "non-style" and.....whole life wasn't it!
Why so.
I am having some sort of, albeit unpleasant, effect?
Are you threatened or something?
I don't like to be just OK at something. If you are going to character assassinate, could I ask that you do a better job.
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98. At 11:32am on 17 Mar 2009, brigadierjohn wrote:
"You're coming across as a 1970s loony Nat, a throwback to the days when "Scotland's Oil" would gold plate our taps and line our coats with mink."
I don't remember any such claims being made, before, during or after the 1970s. I do, however, know exactly where the gold went and many a coat has been lined with ermine at our expense. Not mink, of course, but a close relative which fits the weasels of Westminster, perfectly.
"Just stop and think for a minute before you regale us", says the bold Brigadier. Aye, right!
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#180 Supranationalist
Thanks. I too am busy today.
I see where you are coming from. Westminster can be relied upon to act that way. But it was in no mind to have a devolution referendum, until forced to by behind the scenes tactics. The same thing will be necessary here again no doubt. Without going in to detail, two can play.
Interesting, it might be necessary to demonstrate? And about funding a sort of non referendum? I'll have to return to this debate. I see the referendum problem as a challenge and the smartest side will win.
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Tarvis scot wants a "true home rule parliament"
But wants to drop independence! (rolling aboot laughing!)
Leave school, be a councillor, kiss some things that smell and become a leader of a political party. What an fool is he not? I think he should go back to school do some gcse's then become a brickies labourer and experience some life and then have a think to himself about how smart he actually is - metaphorically speaking like. He might even realise why so much people want independance, never know he might even admit to himself that's what he secretly yearns for too. Pha!....
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As a former Lib-Dem voter who became increasingly disillusioned with their inability to have any kind of principles, I would say this:
"Return to your constituencies and prepare for your P45s!"
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bigabrigadeerjohn?
Do you have a handlebar moustache and wear pluss4s? :)
Socks away oldboy, socks away.
...ccrrrinnge! shudder!
God help the queens
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#101 aye_write: I don't think any modern Nationalist would wish to debate your suggestions as rational options.
I got no reply on a previous thread when I asked what might happen to a Scottish Royal Marine, an SAS man or a Para who didn't fancy poncing up and down at Bute House or some Castle. Should he stay in the UK Army? Would his family be vilified? I could debate that.
The DVLA? Build a new one or "contract out" the service to Swansea. The implications? Is it worthy of debate?
"Wait till we're Independent." How dare you insult me with the proposition "Vote for me - but I'm keeping my options secret. Maybe I just don't know."
Aye_write, I do want to like you. You seem honest and genuine. I had a young girl reporter like you, and I took time to sit down and explain how to get all those dancing thoughts down on paper. She's very successful now, and every year she sends me a card thanking me for having faith in her and changing her life. True. And I always shed a tear.
But it's to late for us, I fear. Maybe today, definitely by tomorrow, I'm off for the foreseeable future.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
re my #183
Oops, wrong thread.
Some of us are actually having a debate ;-)
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102 Albamac
Oh dear oh dear oh dear. There goes all that lovely money again, spirited away by the evil Westminster Government...(pause briefly to twirl moustache). I too remember the poor crofters evicted from their little pieces of seabed where they had lived and farmed for generations. I too remember the old communally owned domestic oil extraction cottage industry brutally thrust aside by the English (errr international) oil companies, spiriting away the black gold by dead of night etc etc.
Sadly, most of the money in the early days was spent funding high levels of unemployment rather than buying ermine. It's just as true now to say that the money is spent on keeping many of the citizens of the East End of Glasgow in strong lager.
Nobody but nobody has ever come up with a coherent analysis based on normalised oil prices to say whether Scotland has been a net beneficiary or net contributor from oil revenues over the years since oil first flowed. All we ever get are selectively quoted memos from 1973 and, like your post, a load of ill-informed leftie drivel based on visceral feelings of injustice.
This surely has to be the 64000 dollar question in the independence debate and yet both unionist and nationalist sides repeatedly shy away from a neutral, objective study of the issue, relying instead on slogans and platitudes.
Why doesn't Brian set down the challenge of how the question could be answered fairly and scientifically. Contributors to provide a methodology rather than links to obscure websites.
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#102 albamac: Your username would be a clue, then? So you don't grasp hyperbole - tough. There are more things in heaven and earth, albamac, than comprise your understanding...
Do you understand fanaticism, pedantry, and blind to reality?
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#107 brigadierjohn
Well, OK, but I can only try my best.
I'm sorry that's how you feel about it. I don't know if its success I'm after, it seems selfish - I have a family to look after. I'll probably just stay puddling about on here. Best wishes for your future endeavours.
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72. At 10:14pm on 16 Mar 2009, sneckedagain wrote:
#54
"Sorry but UK Polling Report is misreporting. I noticed that last night.
The YouGov poll was sample from Scotland was 173 weighted to 165 (whatever that may mean) "
Sneckedagain
As I said in #54 there were two YouGov polls. The sample you mention was from the YouGov UK Poll . The Sunday Times articles highlighted by greenockboy in #13 (& debated by others) which specifically covered voting intentions in Scotland and Scottish 'Independence' were from the YouGov Scottish poll with a sample of 1380.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/scotland/article5908726.ece
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/scotland/article5908385.ece?token=null&offset=0&page=1
So your comment at # 29 was somewhat misleading
*******************************
29. At 11:51am on 16 Mar 2009, sneckedagain wrote:
As far as I can establish the poll referred to in the Sunday Times relates to a tiny Scottish subset (about7% of the total contacted) of a UK wide You Gov poll - ie the figures and the conclusions drawn from those figures are completely meaningless.
The consequent pontification on them by journalists, some of them who should know better, is pretty pathetic.
I'll go with real votes in real polls for the moment - like last week's swing from Labour to the SNP in the Dundee council by-election.
To my almost certain knowledge there has been no swing to Labour from the SNP in any contest since the SNP took over in Holyrood.
********************************
The YouGov UK Poll was mentioned in a separate Sunday Times article specifically covering Brown and Cameron but no mention of SNP or Scottish 'Independence'
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article5908524.ece
& did NOT include any conclusions drawn from "a tiny Scottish subset (about7% of the total contacted) of a UK wide You Gov poll".
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105 Aye-Write
I too share a distrust of LibDems. They have lovely ideas backed by principles of fairness and altruism. It's hard not to agree with what they say compared to the posturing and adversarial yah-booing of the main parties. Who cannot be seduced by the sweetly reasonable and intelligent Vince Cable? They represent the world as it ought to be...but sadly not as it actually is. For this reason they will never form a government except via some weaselly coalition...this might explain their enthusiasm for this governmental model.
Somewhere within it all you can also get a sense of a good old-fashioned "holier than thou" outlook on life. Good old inverse snobbery where you can measure your own virtue and goodness by the apparent venality and "lack of care" shown by others. Verily they shall get through the eye of a needle and all that. But what of reality?
I will never forget the LibDem councillor and partner in an architects firm who sold me his house whilst waxing, condescendingly lyrical about the morality of the party and, by extension, himself. You guessed it, it was a stinker...he even leant on the surveyor, whom he knew professionally, to downplay the problems. He was a hypocritical dreamer whose principles stopped where his own money began. He was a microcosm of the party...an architect who couldn't recognise death watch beetle!
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110 Anglophone
I found the answer to that question, but it involves a link to a pdf of memos between economic advisers and other staff. Needless to say Scotland is not particularly poor. But I'll leave you to play with the other posters ;-)
My modded post was telling you that devolved govts. have the same ability to conduct foreign affairs as the rest now (since recent changes) so Salmond holds an office in that regard superior to anything Ming may have lugged into.
PS I hope you saw my apology on another thread for confusing you with your stalker A/sax. (I'll not replace him.) Happy nat baiting. Off to finish a debate, but harmless banter is better.
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#110 Anglophone
Seconded!!Well said, couldn't have put it better or more succinctly myself.
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#107 brigadierjohn
btw brigadierjohn, I am one of the administration team for the quirkynats website. I and others have said we are happy for our stuff to be used.
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#114 Anglophone
btw on my (our) site messages (and PMs) aren't modded...
Anyway, LibDems, FibDums, whatever. I share your distate for their holier than thou conceit. Wow, we agree! (Lets go to Pennan and slag off the LibDems - there's some dodgy hair dos to speak of! You can get up quite a steam over them, like their being Peter Perfects when they're NOT;-)
I too share your view on their total oblivion to reality - staggering. But they think they know best. Are they the hard done by hippies of politics?
Death watch beetle? I know hypocritical dreamers tend to have far too many pets but, oooh, not nice!! :-\
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#114 Anglophone
Just realised I think you meant to type Fit Like? in your post, not aye_write.
Sorry, I wouldn't have butted in otherwise.
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#119 aye_write
Butt away to your heart's content. You are more than welcome.
I know full well that there are some thouroughly decent and principled Lib-Dem polititians/party members out there. Robert MacLennan was one (albeit his heritage was Labour/SDP), Keith Legg (from above), I know is one and I have a lot of time for Charlie Kennedy.
My disillusionment is with the current party leadership and the 'jump on any passing bandwagon' approach to policy that has developed over recent years.
I think the biggest tragedy that ever faced the liberal party was the untimely death of David Penhaligon, who undoutably would have been their leader had he lived.
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#110
You know, Anglophone, it seems like I've been reading that post since August, 2006.
You, obviously, don't read what others post carefully enough to draw any meaning from what they say. That's okay. It's standard operating procedure for those who rely upon threadbare propaganda to apply hasty patches to a disintegrating tapestry of lies.
The gold, national wealth, oil revenue or whatever we choose to call it went straight to the UK treasury. Thereafter, what wasn't sold at knock-down prices went straight down the drain.
You say, "Sadly, most of the money in the early days was spent funding high levels of unemployment rather than buying ermine. It's just as true now to say that the money is spent on keeping many of the citizens of the East End of Glasgow in strong lager."
I could respond by expressing disbelief, disgust or revulsion at that remark but I'm sure others will understand my reluctance to wallow in your muck.
Did you, honestly, think that my reference to ermine had anything to do with oil? I doubt it, but, just in case the light is really that dim on your side of the planet, I'll offer a clue. Think about rewards for criminal conspirators, fraudsters and thieves. Think about cash for honours. Try to imagine who, in the noblest traditions of Westminster, is entitled to wear ermine. Until recently, Fred Goodwin was amongst that number but, now that there's mayhem in the New Labour farmyard, all the little piggies are slavering to tear the ermine from his back!
Of course, I'd rather not have my comments described as "a load of ill-informed leftie drivel based on visceral feelings of injustice".
I spent a large part of my life in the British Army, engaged in work that required deep vetting of those who were assigned to it. Family, friends, neighbours and even local shopkeepers came under scrutiny during the selection process and that level of intelligence activity continued throughout my career. There weren't many 'ill-informed lefties' in my line of work and I didn't see much evidence of 'visceral feelings of injustice'.
I must admit, though, that the thought of justifying anything that I say or do to someone like you sticks in my craw but, in all of my sixty-three years of learning, nobody ever taught me to spit on anything but my boots. That, I suppose, is what disturbs me about your attitude to those who seek self-determination for Scotland - all spit and no polish!
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100 Anglo
Ming Campbell...... Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!!!!
How many US statespersons has he met? This was another attack on AS as per usual.
How is he supposed to get experience? I'm sure he told Hilary of her husband's Scots bloodline. He also probably told her that 70% of US presidents have Scots ancestry also 13 Scots signed the US declaration of independence which is based on our declaration of Arbroath.
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115 Aye-Write
I knew that "devolved" first ministers were able (or is it "not prohibited from") to conducting foreign affairs. This was why we saw Ken Livingstone cozying up to Hugo Chavez who it can only be assumed, rather like Lenin, would have regarded Red Ken as a "useful fool!". Chavez gave Ken 3 million barrels of oil to be used to help "poor Londoners". Ken gratefully accepted, dreaming of yet more bendy-buses, without thinking how this would be refined, distributed, taxed etc...flew to Caracas with his over-large entourage of insiders to be completely blanked by Chavez and his team. Like I said...it's a different league!
As far as I can see, the only reason Hilary Clinton would see Wee Alec would be to sound out his attitude towards NATO. Loss of NATO airbases covering the Northern Atlantic would be a concern to the US as it would be to the UK. It would be interesting to see if the SNP wish to remain in NATO or whether they prefer a type of smug neutrality (like the one that saw the Irish government tacitly supporting Hitler).
Indeed it would be interesting to see just how long the neutrality argument would stand up to real-politik. The swiftness with which Russia moved to lend "support" to the financially distressed Icelandic Government recently shows how keen they are to both chisel NATO members out of the alliance and to get the strategic upper-hand in the North Atlantic. I think that we can expect early visits to Holyrood by Russian diplomats and some equally muscular diplomacy from the United States.
I bet Alec still thinks that Hilary was smiling at his jokes!
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122 SchooltieColours
In which case she probably left the room thinking "who was that clown?"
Hopefully they had something slightly more interesting to talk about than the hoary old self-delusions of the archetypal Scotsman abroad party bore;-)
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#111
Oh, I've a fairly good grasp of the language but I don't care for people who use it to portray perfectly decent people, who constitute a large section of the Scottish community, as mentally defective fanatics.
I don't know why you chose to promote yourself to the imaginary rank of Brigadier but, based on what you've just written, I'd have to guess that it's because you think it lends itself well to the air of superiority that you've just tried to waft over my comments.
Why not lighten things up by changing it? Try Brigadier Gerard. I greatly enjoyed his tall tales, but I'd read all of them by the time I was ten.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#123 Anglophone
A different league. But unless Alex hasn't noticed, what's the problem? Surely you just become well versed. Secondary school was a different league for a tcheuchter like me but I managed (and got a prize!).
Unless you are inferring it's his Scottishness that leaves him wanting, in which case am I then wanting on this UK wide blog?
I have no experience of chit-chatting (negotiating...maybe not!) with English posters on NR's but, against the odds, I persuaded them independence was not nuts and that they needed to have a good hard look at their own constitution.
Now unless they decided to agree to shut me up (but posters come here for a debate?), or couldn't bear to disagree with a "lady", as brig so embarrassingly puts it, then maybe I managed in a different league.
Is it not down to the calibe of the politician? Experience counts in so much as a wise politician will realise he needs it and then get it and is wise enough then to use it.
Sorry if I am boring you to death.
You need not reply if so.
I shall mention the NATO part second.
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125 Albamac
Weren't you a bit young to be reading the Sporting Life? ;-)
Just in the interests of balance...isn't it equally insulting to portray an even larger section of the Scottish public as timid, deluded, unable to grasp the opportunity, lackeys of the unionist establishment, sell-outs, cowards, TRRAYTUURRRS etc etc etc...that seems to be nationalist sub-text when describing those who don't share their views.
Perhaps Brigadier Lethbridge-Stewert would be a good moniker. He of the "constantly getting done over by seemingly bullet-proof aliens and having to be rescued by Jon Pertwee as Dr Who" fame. Chances are that Alec Salmond was telling Hilary about the hapless Brigadier's apparantly Scottish ancestery...at least according to my new foreign policy advisor Mr. SchooltieColour.
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#123 Anglophone
NATO. Interesting too. Eck has some "power" then? What would you have him do. (Step away from the big table...that's it ;-)
I have become drawn to the position that independent Scotland needs to consider all options regarding IGOs, the EU included. (Perhaps the EEA is a better first step, there are so many in Europe, esp. cosidering Russia's wish for a level economic playing field there, which could turn up something that joins the EAA as a parallel to EU membership.)
What do you think. Too wee and autograph seeking? ;-)
How could we avoid another modern day Darien (you were wanting someone to mention it) as, as it was, on the basis of fisheries alone, EU membership as part of the UK has been an unmitigated economic disaster for Scotland. (The loss of annual income caused by the destruction of two thirds of the national fishing industry statistically outweighs any identifiable economic benefit accruing to Scotland from the EU. This has been compounded by the destruction of the Scottish steel industry as a result of rationalisation on an EU basis, with knock-on effects on shipbuilding and other industries.)
Who's club to join.....
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124 Anglo
Better that than the imperialist Brit! What's boring about Scots history ya all! Ask Ed.
Gordon the archetypal Unionist abroad, lol! The irony.
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128 Anglo
I can guarantee I have been to more countries than most people as my previous job invloved travelling the world. Maybe not foreign policy advisor but could teach Ming a thing or 2, lol!
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#123 Anglophone
Maybe Eck just wants Hilary to think that he thinks that.
So.........
If we are having US and Russian greedy NATO hogs at our door, what would a good brolly brigade-er do? (And not wee Eck who's still staying at Mumsie's ;-)
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anglophobia?
"Why doesn't Brian set down the challenge of how the question could be answered fairly and scientifically. Contributors to provide a methodology rather than links to obscure websites."
Get a grip, scientifically?
Yes or no!
its all the mooly mouthed self assured methodology that I need away from, hence give me independance now! Why don't you do yourself a favour and wish us well and save your glorious kingdom from the burden of feeding wasteful scots on lager with the spoils of oil. Then you can let us worry about that. Or are you afraid of losing the poor unfortunate child that you dictate to for its own good and guide toward your perfect vision of eutopia?
I really don't mind a good "heated debate" about something but you blues come across as just so arrogantly self cock assured. Hmmm, how dare one wish not to follow the perfect example set for them, for their own good (those poor scotchs), by the mother land!
Someone asked earlier if we understood fanaticism etc. Unfortunately I do. I also undersatnd things like facisim and eletism, and those who practise it will use any method they can to preserve it for their own good. Those who wish to escape it will use anything they can to be free from it. Some don't even know what year it is and have still not rubbed the sleep from their eyes to realise what's happening - sceptics?
:)
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RE 117 Aye-Write.
"btw brigadierjohn, I am one of the administration team for the quirkynats website. I and others have said we are happy for our stuff to be used."
Quirkynats? This is not the oficial snp site is it?
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130 SchooltieColours
Nothing wrong with Scottish history at all...the demythologised version at least.
I was referring to the much parodied (by balanced Scottish people as well) type who insists that all the major world inventions were by Scots...that all major figures in the English speaking world are of Scottish descent, as if this conveyed some bizarre evolutionary advantage, and that Scots, given their manifest superiority in all things have been robbed of their rightful place as a global superpower by dark forces. There's one in most bars and it's seriously draining to run into one!
It's always interesting that anyone who disagrees with Nationalists is, by definition a snorting imperialist, seemingly marooned in the 1930s and changing into evening dress before dinner in a tent in the jungle. It's about as relevant as some tartan clad Harry Lauder lookalike with a knobbly walking stick saying "crivens ma wallet". Try to think a little more laterally and move away from the 1970s student politics stuff.
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Anglophone, would you like a link?
(It's entirely up to you.)
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#134 waitingformyman
No! Hardly ;-)
It's cooler!
It's a site for when mod queues kill debate on here, and beyond.
For pro-independence......and my personal fans!
Only kidding, we have lots of members........
[Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]
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133 Twentydollarsinmyhand
Woow...touched a nerve there! I was simply suggesting that someone should put this argument to bed once and for all and you've gone off on one. What are you afraid of finding out?
If your argument and belief is so strong you should be holding that referendum next week. It's in your hands after all...no one is trying to stop you.
But it's so much easier to say how great it would be if we could just get away from "them", how arrogantly cocksure "they" are. "They" want to keep us underlings etc etc. The mythology is always so much more fun than the worrying reality of trying to put one's obsessions into effect...innit?
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134
It's almost intelligible!!
Will your man be home for Mother's Day!!?? Along with the translator (or at least the spell-checker)!!
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#134 waitingformyman
Hardly! (It's cooler ;-)
No, it's a forum for discussion, good for when mod queues kill debate on here (fills in the gaps so we don't run from Brian's)........
...............and for my personal fans!
(Kidding - we have quite a few members)
Google it. My link got modded.
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Re my 139,
make the reference 133, not 134!
Oops!!
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Anglo 130
I think most Scots have done a wee bit of this but we're proud of our history and much of what was/has probably been said is true. I think a lot of what's trying to be debated gets diluted due to the wee cringe factor. All of the UK has contributed to world but the political landscape has changed. I have nothing in common with Brown, Darling, Gray, Scott et al and I find them crass, infantile and totally inadequate. These men are from the same country as me and I do wonder where we've went wrong to produce the ineptitude of these imposters.
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132 Schooltiethingy
Funnily enough my current job also involves travelling the world and I've been to lots of places. Still don't presume to know it all yet though;-)
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142 Schooltiecolour
It's that Edinburgh Cringe Festival again. I have never met a Scot anywhere who was shy of coming forward loudly with whatever they believed in...quite often before I had even asked. Are you quite sure that that this "cringe" thing isn't just a synonym for someone else simply not agreeing with you?
Have you ever considered also that with independence all these "crass infantile imposters" will likely be moving home to take up politics. Will they be crass then?
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136 Aye Write
Would that be an authoritative link or an assembly of disjointed nuggets of evidence spun together to support a grand thesis. If so no thank-you.
Alternatively, if you have something properly researched, substantiated and authored by a respected economist, historian or journalist then I would be happy to give it a read.
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#145 Anglophone
Remembering you'd said you'd become sick of all the nonsense on this blog, it was absolutely nothing to do with either. Merely an exercise in practice communication for post sucession again, I suppose.
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#145 Anglophone
Actually, how would this do?
http://www.realmofscotland.com
It's got stuff from the Scotland-UN team and seems well researched. Maybe you would like to part with your views. (But you might need the other link I was going to offer you first to do that, though I don't demand you talk politics.)
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#113
As you insist there was two polls. After must searching I contacted YouGov directly and they supplied me with details of the Scottish one (1380 respondents).
Several newspapers have mixed the two polls up however.
The SNP has indeed dipped in both of them from its high point last autumn but remains in a better position than it was showing in the YouGov polls before the Scottish election (which the SNP won).
Looking at the details the fact that according to this poll nearly 70% of Scots think Gordon Brown is doing well with the economy rings bells for me about the cross section contacted. "Don't believe it" is my immediate reaction and it has to be said that that opinion is held only by dyed in the wool Labour supporters.
I have to say that I don't believe the results of phone canvassing anymore either. I've done a lot of phone canvassing and about 60% of people on the phone are now not accessible to this. The subset you talk to are predominately late middle aged to pensioner and mostly of a lower middle class social grouping. In Scotland this will probably favour Labour which is why they always perfrom below their polling figures in real elections. So it is impossible to establish anything on phone canvassing except perhaps some changing allegiances if follow up is done. I haven't contacted anyone under thirty on a phone canvas for as long as I can remember.
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#100
Anglophone, you're just making things up again. Alex Salmond was on HIGNFY three times as a guest but not as a presenter. You're obviously thinking of Ming Campbell's boss Charles Kennedy who was guest presenter on one show and a guest on another seven.
The rest of the post is only worth answering to point out the the strawman arguments.
I said Ming Campbell was useless not that Alex Salmond was a diplomatic genius and that the US attacked the Serbs to support the ethnic Albanian KLA not the other way round.
Do you make a habit of making up opinions from other posters and then rebutting them?
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anglophobic?
"It's that Edinburgh Cringe Festival again. I have never met a Scot anywhere who was shy of coming forward loudly with whatever they believed in...quite often before I had even asked. Are you quite sure that that this "cringe" thing isn't just a synonym for someone else simply not agreeing with you?"
This comes across as a bit racist. I wont' say what immpressions are left in me every time I meet an Englishman.
Attacking the cringe festival just demonstrates how ignorant you possibly are, a more roayl place you won't find in scotchland, except apart from deeside and it is quite inetresting that now your frustration is making you aim indescrimenatly at what is potentially an aly of what seems to be your cause. And seemingly to me it is exercising what you believe is a superior intelect - as if flexing your muscles, no?
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aye-write. Quirkynats?
Googled it before you posted. Looks good.
But, be warned, if the SNP P me off I will lay in to them with as much integrity and vigour as I would into anything/one who want's to deter me from what I believe in because they have no ambition: Those who are easily led by the lure of silver and gold and the need to feel as if they have taken the world into a new civilised order and can't except it when someone questions its credability.
God they test my patience, and our numbers are growing fast.
Unsionists would like to believe that's a direct cause of that mythalogical story of braveheart - hahahahahHEHEH! And often do patronisingly through it in your face when they feel their backs against the wall and the superhuman intelect can't think of anything else. Oh aye ,then there's the illousion of the spoils of oil that they seem to think is the only other thing that makes us want to breakaway. Just accept it! Its just you we want away from. Go on impress some one on the disney forum. They'd probably see through faster than most on here. LOL!
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anglophob? RE 138
"If your argument and belief is so strong you should be holding that referendum next week. It's in your hands after all...no one is trying to stop you."
who are you trying to kid? The disillousion of yourself is all you are trying to re-inforce, here. Go away and come back when your cleverer and got over acne.
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134 freethemacs
"It's almost intelligible!!
Will your man be home for Mother's Day!!?? Along with the translator (or at least the spell-checker)!!"
so sorry, I never could quite grasp the idiocrisys of thee english vocabulary. Think it was through choice though. The more YOU can't understand the better. But then again I can't be nearly so eduacated as you, I wouldn't imagine. I have a instictual urge to be whisked away to itally by my only surviving relative and learn latin - you'd love to believe that wouldn't you!
Its been a long time, and I have been tempted myself to point out some glaring spelling errors (as far as the queens own is concerned, but which make perfect snese to anyone with an ear and a mooth fae o teeth) but I was waiting for someone else to stoop to that "up against the ropes kinda counteratack".
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#151 waiting
Thanks, we're pretty pleased with it.
I actually do not dislike Anglophone or the English. Remember they haven't conspired to get at us Scots. Most don't give us much of a thought through their day, they're not obsessed with Scotland in any, never mind a negative, way.
It is the Westminster politicians you should, and I'm sure do, dislike, for they are the ones doing everything in their power, which is absoute given that they have parliamentary sovereignty (i.e. it doesn't lie with the people as in Scotland) so they have no redress, to scupper plans for a referendum on independence in Scotland, and to stop independence from ever happening. Nice, eh?
What vested interests will produce.
Anglophone, if I may speak for him as he seems to have gone, has his reasons for disagreeing with independence, but what gets his goat, if I get him correctly, is the attitude he sees from other posters that all things Scottishy and independenty = good, all things Englishy and unionisty = bad. Blind delight in something doesn't please him. So he'll poke fun where I'm sure he feels it's justified. I don't see how anyone could get angry, he is really hilarious, well worth a read.
You might aswell go over the top and tell him he's got his handlebar moustache in a knot and in his megalomanic imperialistic stupor he forgot to point out that we Scots shouldn't get the oil gold as we'd only spend it on kilts, shortbread and Buckfast (sounds like quite a good party!)
Anyway, sorry, I've done a sermon! Happy posting.
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Waitingformyman...various
Think I can chalk you up as another satisfied customer.
"who are you trying to kid? The disillousion (sic) of yourself is all you are trying to re-inforce (sic), here. Go away and come back when your (sic) cleverer and got over acne."
I clearly may not be as clever as you...innit... but I did learn to spell at school and left acne behind 30 years ago;-)
"And seemingly to me it is exercising what you believe is a superior intelect (sic) - as if flexing your muscles, no?"
Yowzah....keep it coming (twirl moustache)
"This comes across as a bit racist. I wont' (sic) say what immpressions (sic) are left in me every time I meet an Englishman."
Thank you once again for your thoughts Mr. Pot...signed Mr. Kettle.
See you again soon;-)
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AW re 154
"I actually do not dislike Anglophone or the English. Remember they haven't conspired to get at us Scots. Most don't give us much of a thought through their day, they're not obsessed with Scotland in any, never mind a negative, way.
It is the Westminster politicians you should, and I'm sure do, dislike, for they are the ones doing everything in their power, which is absoute given that they have parliamentary sovereignty"
1. Sorry, I don't/can't, like anglo but that's what it wants, so I don't waste too much energy with the likes of it - comapares with trying to rehabilitate a certain type of offender. It may be the case when they byde south of the wall, English are generally quite decent people and have no real negative tendancies towards scots, although some experiences do contradict this but on migrating up north, god! HELP!!
2. You are almost spot on here about westminster. So, why o why is it that the blues can't respect the urgent need for us to cut free from it, instead of impying that we are some sort of rebelious cretins betraying the mitherland that need re-educated?
**************
englishfone---
aye aye -sic -sic. Yes you do make me.
I do believe I have a better grasp of your mother tongoue than you have. Says something about someone who has absolutley no interest in it.
Keep using yir speel checkir min.
wish I could see you later...
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#156 waitingformyman
re #155
Told ya! You've got to like? (No?)
Re your point 2.
We are far too advantageous to "let go", for many reasons.....
.....international - status, sway, economic muscle...showing off basically, it suits them....internal - part political advantage, Westminster is broke...it's all fur coat and no knickers, has been for decades!
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AW
"Told ya! You've got to like? (No?)"
OK, I'll try, it's not easy though. Might help if I could expect to impose my idealisms on "them" for their own good. But then again it's not in my nature to dictate to others how best to lead their lives, nor to critisise them for leading it the way they wish...UNLESS...they interfere with mine!!!
**********
apologies in advance for any offence caused by gramatical/speeling errirs, bit speel chekir disna wurk for doric
;)
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It's beginning to get a little eerie around here AW - just how many pen-names do you have?
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Anglo 144
Your attempt a humour, well..... it's cringe(worthy)
As for Darling(he's English and you're welcome to him) and Brown(inc. all other Scots in Unionist parties) are Scotland's enemy. They are doing a good job peddling lies as always. I'm sure Bernard Ingham will be happy! I would accept anyone in an independent Scotland. There are English folk who support it. Anyway it's not about Scotland v England that nonsense just stifles the debate. Let's go our own way, amicably. I've stated before that a lot of Scots are gullible and couldn't debate any reason for keeping the Union. I don't mind Unionists(friends and family inc.) but I do mind their lack of credible reasons for keeping the status quo. Can you give just one reason?
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#159 Sparklet
Seriously, only two!
I used the 2nd one about 6 times. (I don't know why either.)
Honest. ;-)
PS Thank you very much for the 'Cash cuts' response and links. I shall be chewing them over.
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#159 Sparklet
Seriously, only two!
I used the 2nd one about 6 times. (I don't know why either.)
Honest. ;-)
PS Thank you very much for the 'Cash cuts' response and links. I shall be chewing them over.
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(To be honest, I'm not sure whether this scattering is wasteful or clever and better for these communities.) It was mentioned there. Mike Jump
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#163 Honestly I read Brian's blog and I say it's very clever. Sarah Jump
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