Here we go again
Here we go again.
Once more, the first minister seeks to respond positively, seeks to salvage what he and others can from the takeover of a Scottish financial institution.
Once more, he is also left questioning whether that deal might have been engineered differently, whether an alternative approach might have maintained HQ functions in Scotland.
If you recall, that was exactly the dual approach pursued by Alex Salmond at the time of the Lloyds takeover of HBOS.
Now it is happening all over again as the Dunfermline Building Society is digested by the Nationwide. Team Salmond is left asking: which nation?
Aides to the first minister stress they do not believe there was a deliberate Treasury attempt to "do down Scotland", to rule out the prospect of a Scottish deal purely on the grounds that it was Scottish.
Rather, they say the choice of the particular rescue mechanism was driven by "rigidity" at the core of the machine.
'Scottish' dimension
They adopted, in short, a takeover model which had previously been used to absorb the Cheshire and Derbyshire building societies.
From the point of view of UK Treasury and FSA officials, the Dunfermline case was entirely comparable.
From that standpoint, the "Scottish" dimension would not compute.
The concern would be to preserve consistency, to bolster the UK's financial structure as far as possible and to forestall the creation of a precedent which might lead others to demand distinctive treatment.
Equally, Mr Salmond's aides are not saying that there was definitely a specific Scottish deal on the table which might have preserved the Dunfermline as an autonomous entity.
However, they believe potential Scottish bargains - such as the one disclosed by BBC Scotland today - were not examined sufficiently closely.
The first minister has asked to see the value for money assessment upon which the Dunfermline takeover was based.
Dual approach
I would not be at all surprised if those various points were to surface in a ministerial statement at Holyrood tomorrow, should MSPs agree.
Again, expect the dual approach: questioning the basis of the deal but pledging to work closely with the Nationwide.
Responding to concerns raised, the prime minister and the chancellor are adamant: that the Dunfermline brought the problems upon themselves and that the Nationwide deal is by far the best for jobs, savers and borrowers.
As ever, dear friends, my only concern is to place the facts and analysis before you in, one hopes, a cogent form.
All the facts. All the analysis.
I'm 
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~09~RS~)
Comments
Sign in or register to comment.
All the facts? All the analysis?
You seem to have neglected the fact that the Dunfermline Building Society's toxic debt has been taken on by the "UK" taxpayer - which is 80% the English taxpayer.
Do you agree with Will Hutton that a big thanks to the English taxpayer is in order?
And chaps please try to resist mentioning Shetland' oil - you will start getting their backs up.
I'm not blaming Scotland by the way just the Scot that has been in charge of the "UK" finances for the last decade.
Complain about this comment
"As ever, dear friends, my only concern is to place the facts and analysis before you in, one hopes, a cogent form.
All the facts. All the analysis."
Remarkably we have another blog topic in which it is the SNP which are under scrutiny, not Labour which is in the process of systematically wrecking the Scottish economy. Thatcher must be proud of her bairn Gordon's handy work so far!
Complain about this comment
This comment has been referred to the moderators. Explain.
Brian: "The concern would be to preserve consistency, to bolster the UK's financial structure as far as possible and to forestall the creation of a precedent which might lead others to demand distinctive treatment."
Well, then you have given "All the facts. All the analysis." because that is the whole point....
to bolster the UK's financial structure
...WITHOUT REGARD GIVEN TO SCOTLAND'S WITHIN IT.
Once again British first, Scottish last.
That's what you get when you're part of the Union.
You're right Brian, your blog does say everything.
Complain about this comment
The issue is that whereas Alex Salmond would have tried hard to find a Scottish solution because he's an economic and industrial patriot, Gordon Brown and Alastair Darling wouldn't have even bothered because - as Darling made clear in the FT - they don't believe in economic or industrial patriotism.
Everyone else on the planet does of course.
Complain about this comment
But Brian, we don't have "All the facts. All the analysis." available just yet, and it looks likely that we won't be getting them anytime soon. This website's Scots bid for Dunfermline failed poses many more questions and the $64,000 questions from Sunday's Politics Show remain: Where is the KPMG report for the FSA that Faulds referred to? Where are the facts supporting Capn. Darling's £60m to £100m claims?
All that is clear just yet is that the reek of stinking fish doesn't emanate from the FM.
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
Complain about this comment
Only a cynic would think that Gordon Brown has deliberately destroyed Scotland as a financial centre for purely political reasons
Complain about this comment
Nope, try again Brian.
Away from DBS there is some good news around today it would seem:
First-time buyer scheme expanded
GBP800m data centre gains momentum
Complain about this comment
This comment has been referred to the moderators. Explain.
#3 Hesiodos
ROFL, but I'm surprised the report made no mention of the breathtaking avionic display of the Red Piggos overhead.
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
Complain about this comment
#7
Hmmm..... Cynic or realist?
Complain about this comment
#7 yourfriendforlife
"Only a cynic would think that Gordon Brown has deliberately destroyed Scotland as a financial centre for purely political reasons"
And you're not a cynic? Your User Profile argues otherwise.
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
Complain about this comment
always be wary of someone who finishes a piece with a deftly worded "don't shoot the messenger"
all that is happening at the moment is that the banking system in the UK is going down the pan and the labour party are taking the opportunity to centralise the UK financial systems in the south east of england.
any other UK company not having their head office in england should be worried as they will be taken over sooner rather than later or shut down.
remember the highland clearances ? you ain't seen nothing yet. browns scorched earth policy continues unabated.
"i will do whatever it takes to save the union" he wasn't kidding was he!!!
PS when did the BBC stop being a public service broadcaster and simply become the mouthpiece of the state??
Complain about this comment
#8 forfar-loon
"Away from DBS there is some good news around today it would seem"
Good news indeed. Goes to show that there are more effective ways of using relatively small amounts of public money to stimulate the economy than a blanket 2.5% VAT cut, which will mostly go to boost the sales of chinese TV sets and the like.
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
Complain about this comment
#13 sidthesceptic
"PS when did the BBC stop being a public service broadcaster and simply become the mouthpiece of the state??"
It appears to have been moments after BBC Scotland's poltical journalists recovered from their shock and disbelief that the SNP had won the last Scottish election.
Complain about this comment
#1, englandrise.
Go away and rise.
You're missing the point here, which is that once more, a Scottish financial institution has been subsumed by a non-Scottish financial Institution at the Insistence of the UK Government.
Sorry, that's maybe the wrong words. Forced into a sale at gunpoint may be more appropriate.
And, again, as in HBOS, there appears to have been an "alternative" Scottish-based solution on the table that was struck aside without a look.
If the Dunfermline was in that much trouble, wouldn't you want to be looking at every option before another panicked fire sale outwith competition laws rushed through the Broon and Darling ?
Where are the facts ? Why are Scotland's banks and building societies being forced into being taken over ?
Us ranting cyber-nats are never ones for Conspiracy Theories.
HBOS ?
RBS ?
Dunfermline ?
Why is all this being done behind closed doors at Westminister ?
And more importantly, why is it being spun as "The Only Alternative" and "If you nasty secessionists were Independent , you just couldn't do this".
I think we should be told.
Complain about this comment
Here we go again ... another carefully crafted Labour Party press release dressed up as news.
Complain about this comment
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
Could it be that the Auld Alliance will be music to the FM's ears at the G20 summit this week?
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
Complain about this comment
It's hard to believe 2 Scottish MP's are deliberately closing Scottish businesses.
The SNP are right to make the most of this and to point at alternatives. But like with HBOS the Scottish solutions are a bit uncertain and how long will depositors wait before they start removing savings.
How much uncertainty will it need to lose confidence in other Building Societies that we've been told are well regulated and safe.
It is annoying, and it can be debated all day. But it is a quick and safe solution for most people.
Complain about this comment
Strange how 'Englandrise' has managed to nip in with the first post on the last two threads now and then never posted again?
...Is that you having a wind up Mr Brian?
Complain about this comment
I don't remember too much fuss about preserving English jobs when RBS took over NatWest or BOS got involved with the Halifax.
The fact remains that RBS and BOS seem to be the architects of their own downfall and a country of 5 million people would not be able to raise the capital to rescue Europe's largest bank ( RBS), what had been UK's largest building society (Halifax) and a medium sized BS( Dunfermline).
Scotland will have to look to other ways to earn a living just like the rest of the UK.
Tough times ahead for the countries that make the wrong choices.
Complain about this comment
#19 pete_wesni
"It's hard to believe 2 Scottish MP's are deliberately closing Scottish businesses."
One would hope so, but for how long do you propose giving them the benefit of the doubt?
When they rush to judgement but are slow to provide the evidence needed to justify their actions, what should a reasonable person believe?
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
Complain about this comment
#19, pete_wesni.
Pete, problem is this.
Broon and Darling are not Scottish MPs.
They are UK MPs.
I think that they honestly believe that what they are doing is in the best interests of The UK.
Because, by destroying a "Scottish" financial sector, they believe that action will make the breakup of the Union less likely.
They are wrong. It hastens the day, because it shows their arrogance in refusing to engage with the devolved, SNP government of Scotland to work in the interests of the people of Scotland.
Complain about this comment
#19 pete_wesni
PS to my #22
"But like with HBOS the Scottish solutions are a bit uncertain and how long will depositors wait before they start removing savings."
Had they been given entry to the FSA scheme their chairman claims the KPMG recommended, and which the Scottish government was ready to provide the DBS position would in no way have been uncertain.
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
Complain about this comment
I search in vain for the journalistic Knight in Shining Armour to come to the aid of truth ,integrity and Scotland.
I cannot believe the media, do they really think they are safer than the rest of us?
Somebody should really tell them they're not!
The dead tree bunch are on a hiding to nothing and are bleating that it is all due to the credit crunch.Personally, I think it is due to writing Labour Press releases and NOT news.
Same applies to the BBC.
RIP honesty, you are under no threat from Scottish or English journalists.
Complain about this comment
All the facts. All the analysis.
This is pitiful. There is no mention of the monies involved and what analysis?
Brian, you, correctly, pointiout that the UK Treasury and FSA do not take into account the Scottish angle. What is Brown and Darlings excuse? There is no excuse. That's because they are Unionists and the UK comes before Scotland. That's despite them representing Scottish constituences. My only conclusion is that they are traitors.
Freedom
Complain about this comment
Brian,
I'm not going to come to your defense too readily on this one (!!), but I think some of my independantiste colleaques might do well to accept your final words and go and collect 'all the facts' before they rush onto the keyboards!
I am saddened to see the relative demise of the DBS as that's where I got my first mortgage in this country but, if other reports in today's press are correct, then John McFall may be quite right in his assertion that the authors of the downfall of the DBS are its own Board and directors.
If these reports are true it seems that the DBS either 'bought in', or made directly, loans to 'technically insolvent companies' who were in default with their annual returns to Companies House.
Lending like this could only be a Board decision at the DBS given the amounts involved (up to £20 million) and, if these stories are proved correct there just should be no hiding place left for the parties responsible.
Without doubt, many, many high risk loans/investments have been made by all the UK banks as an end result of the 'Big Bang' under Thatcher, but real questions must be asked of boards and independent directors who sanctioned these deals with nowhere like the real scrutiny required.
That also not be too surprising now, given that old-fashioned Scottish banking prudence seems to have been jettisioned in the three Scottish institutions in favour of new leadership by retailers, spin-doctors and the like.
I would suspect that the Board of the rumoured interested Scottish prospect are daily wiping their collective brows over their now fortunate exclusion from any involvement!
Complain about this comment
#1 englandrise
"You seem to have neglected the fact that the Dunfermline Building Society's toxic debt has been taken on by the "UK" taxpayer - which is 80% the English taxpayer."
We DON'T want anything from the poor old English taxpayer - they are going to need to believe London, as a world finance centre, can be rejuvenated post Scottish succession. We can probably pay off our share of the UK's debt.
You'll know I've been telling 'Brits' on NR's that they need to get an English parliament, and a changed constitution and voting system to begin the process of fixing England after this destruction by Brown.
"I'm not blaming Scotland by the way just the Scot that has been in charge of the "UK" finances for the last decade."
We can't stomach him either! Imagine if you had an Englishman destroying his (your) own country for the sake of his legacy as a world leader. Sick. Take all the derogatory terms in the dictionary and they still wouldn't be adequate to describe our feelings towards Brown.
He is in fact the zealot, he is the Brit nationalist.
From his deranged mouth:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7969463.stm
"The importance of self- determination.....!" (though not for Scotland - hypocrite.)
http://www.theherald.co.uk/politics/news/display.var.2498834.0.Markets_should_reflect_British_values.php
British values in the banking system!(not fairness for DBS though - hypocrite.)
He knows this:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financetopics/recession/5010004/UK-recession-will-be-longer-and-deeper-says-IMF.html
His motives set out clearly as far back as here (Scottish bail out show's Union's strength):
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/7670331.stm
...at the same time the DBS chairman was trying like hell to get the Treasury to talk to him.
It's ALL propaganda.
From the hypocritical, ego-driven, Britophilic, Scotophobic maniac. (England doesn't even figure.)
History writers are going to have a field day.
Complain about this comment
#4, aye_write:
"Once again, British first, Scottish last."
Except, of course, that "British" is inclusive of "Scottish."
--
As for Brian's closing: "All the facts. All the analysis," is a bit OTT; even derekbarker and deandthetory have not claimed to know EVERYTHING about EVERYTHING, even if one might infer the suggestion of omniscience in certain posts.
--
What I find particularly galling about the handling of the DBS situation is the undue haste with which the matter was disposed - particularly stitching up the deal at a weekend!
What exactly was the urgency?
Did the Great Leader simply want to avoid embarrassing questions at press conferences during the G20 summit?
--
Much has been said of the fact that an independent Scotland could not have rescued RBS or BoS, but I consider that the position of DBS (essentially a solely Scottish concern) to be a better measure of the capacity of the Scottish financial sector to help heal the wounds inflicted by the so-called 'credit crunch.'
After all, had Scotland been independent, then RBS and BoS operations outside of Scotland (in the Dis-United Kingdom and elsewhere) would have been undertaken by subsidiaries located in those countries, and they would have been subject to the financial regulatory regimes in such foreign lands.
We have already learned today that another (Scottish-based) proposal to save DBS could have been mounted, but this didn't suit the suits at HM Treasury.
--
Anything to do with the fact that the Government accounting year (as distinct from the tax year) ends on 31 March, and the Government wants to get all of the bad news dealt with under 2008-09, even if only to inflate the 'boom' expected in 2009-10?
Complain about this comment
When Gordon Brown said two years ago that he would not work with an SNP administration. Many thought that it was unlikely there would be an SNP government.
Well we do have the SNP at Holyrood and Gordon has lived up to those words of 2 years ago. He also spoke that he is a son of the Manse and went on to say that the qualities he learned for being so would be useful as PM. How did he become so bitter and twisted then?
Complain about this comment
Comletely and utterly scunnered with Brown, Darling, Murphy, in fact the whole of the labour party.
Dunfermline set to post £26m in losses.
Security costs for the G20 are costing £20m alone.
Why the rush to sell off the business, why was the same not done to Northern Rock, and in the grand scheme of things Dunfermlines losses pale into comparison with the money already shelled out in the bank bail outs.
Predicited borrowing from the government is set to be £118 billion, whats £56m, that asked for as a cah injection into the Dunfermline, compared to that.
The financial sector in Scotland has been systematically dismantled, would this have been the case in an independent Scotland?
Even Icelands financial institutions still exist in some shape or form as Icelandic banks, what do we Scots have left for the future?
Look like founding a National Bank of Scotland (NBS) will be on the to do list come independence now.
Complain about this comment
#27 freedjmac
"I think some ... might do well to accept your final words and go and collect 'all the facts' before they rush onto the keyboards!"
A bit rich when we'll probably have to wait 30 years before 'all the facts' reach the public domain! I and no doubt some other colleaques will be pushing up the daisies long before then.
Nobody in any media I've seen so far has defended Dalziel, the previous DBS chief exec, who obviously put them in hot water with IT projects [not just governments that get them wrong, it seems] and dodgy portfolios of English mortgages. What Duff Gordon and Capn. Darling have not produced is the KPMG report and a detailed analysis demolishing it from the FSA to justify their unproven assertions.
Until and unless the Court of public opinion receive those proofs, the balance of probability with lie with Faulds and the FM despite the NuLab press releases coming from all the media in the the absence of facts.
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
Complain about this comment
#27, freedjman:
"... the 'Big Bang' under Thatcher."
I knew she was old, but even I wouldn't have guessed 13.5 billion years...
... nor suggested that she is the Great Architect of the Universe!
Complain about this comment
#23, Chiefy1724:
"Broon and Darling are not Scottish MPs.
They are UK MPs."
Good point.
Or is it?
I would argue that they ARE Scottish MPs, but their abilities to serve the interests of their constituents (whom they ostensibly represent) is compromised by the fact that all Ministers of HM Government are essentially ENGLISH posts, some more obviously than others - e.g. the Secretary of State for Health has no remit outseide England (indeed, THE 'National Health Service' is solely English in character) - and that the term United Kingdom here is nothing more than an updated 'name' for the Auld Enemy.
Complain about this comment
#28 aye_write
Good post and clearly straight from the heart, but how did you enjoy the play, Mrs Lincoln?
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
Complain about this comment
#28 Aye_Write
"...at the same time the DBS chairman was trying like hell to get the Treasury to talk to him."
RBS and Bradford and Bingley made cash calls that were to make them fine. But then they wanted more.
With this experience would you risk your neck on someone who had already made mistakes?
Complain about this comment
Considerring the amount of taxpayers cash now being gifted to Nationwide, it would have been cheaper and easier to give the cash to the Dunfermline and help it to sort itself out. Was Nationwide going to be brought to the edge by going it on their own like Lloyds was , or could they have survived without an injection of government cash. This, like the HBOS saga stinks of panicced incompetence on the part of Brown and Darling.
Complain about this comment
#29 O.B.F.U.
"Anything to do with the fact that the Government accounting year (as distinct from the tax year) ends on 31 March, and the Government wants to get all of the bad news dealt with under 2008-09, even if only to inflate the 'boom' expected in 2009-10?"
I must confess I hadn't thought of it in those terms, which would clearly be the No.1 for the Sir Humphreys. You'd have thought that "their" ministers would have questioned it, but when they're of the calibre of Duff Gordon and Capn. Darling with no numeracy whatsoever, you could well have hit on the real explanation.
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
Complain about this comment
Putting aside Brown's personal intentions (which we can never really know) why is it that EVERY TIME there is a problem facing a Scottis financial institution the only option available/allowed is one that works to the sever disadvantage of Scotland? One would have thought that, even by the law of averages, just now and then a situation would arise in which there was an option which wasn't to the total disadvantage of the Scots but, no, Scotland is the loser every single time. This stretches belief past breaking point and, even if Brown is not deliberately trying to wreck Scottish financial institutions, any rational observer would find it difficult to distinguish Brown's actions from a person who was. So, even if we give him the benefit of the doubt, Brown is failing to represent the best interests of the Scottish people, and one must hope that the electorate finally wakes up to this and votes accordingly.
Complain about this comment
#36 pete_wesni
"RBS and Bradford and Bingley made cash calls that were to make them fine. But then they wanted more."
And did the FSA commission and publish an independent KPMG report before giving them the cash?
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
Complain about this comment
Brian
Your last two paragraphs.
As ever, dear friends, my only concern is to place the facts and analysis before you in, one hopes, a cogent form.
All the facts. All the analysis.
Just exactly where are they??? They are certainly not in this article. Funny I used to think that was what the BBC were set up for, to present the facts in an unbiased manner, some hope!
Can we expect a request under The Freedom of Information Act, for the KPMG report from the BBC?
I suppose I live in hope that some day the BBC rediscovers it bottle, and starts fulfilling it proper function. Until then I suppose it will be the usual daily Labour press releases presented as news.
P.S. I thought the fact that the fourth largest city changing their management team might have been reported a bit more prominently on the "news" page.
Just think the BBC could have reported it as "SNP undemocratic to deny Labour proposal to have joint four party leadership on council"
Have the Labour spin doctors missed a trick?
Complain about this comment
Yet another financial institution going to the dogs. This really is depressing. And all Westminster Labour and Holyrood SNP can do is fight with each other! ARENT WE MISSING SOMETHING? peoples jobs, livelyhood and homes are under threat, for gos sake lets all put our agendas to ne side and get behind anything that can save people from the cold grasp of morgage defaulting, unemployment and destitution.
Complain about this comment
Apologies to everyone for the poor quality of my typing (#29, #33, #34):
The one good thing - and it is the only example I anticipate - about the 'new' format for BBC blogs (and comments) is the 'preview' button before posting.
I'm glad I'm not perfect, since it gives me something to which to aspire.
Complain about this comment
By way of light relief, it's good to see that the fragrant Ms Smith - guardian of all the UK's borders is in the deep and smelly again with this website's 'Bogus' colleges lose visa rights. As she again aims to close the stable door long after the horse has bolted, she informs us that she: "Won't tolerate 'dodgy' colleges", but forgets to add the all-important "any more"!
Is there no beginning to her competence?
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
Complain about this comment
This is an extract from and variation on from my contribution, late in the day, to the last thread with some spelling corrections. It came too late to be read on the last thread and this version is relevant to this thread.
Viewed in the British context the DBS deal is reasonable. Was there a Scottish dimension considered? Possibly not as the FSA have no such brief. Possibly not because the Westminster Government would silently welcome a weakening of Scottish independent institutions. Possibly not as DBS, or at least its CEO, would seemed to have quietly decided that the Nationwide deal was the solution. Are there questions to be answered? Certainly by FSA and DBS CEO and Darling. Will these questions be asked? Possibly. Will these questions be answered? No.
How does Salmond respond, in the only way he can, accepting the reasonableness of the deal regretting missed Scottish opportunities.
The fact is DBS mis-management got it into diffuculty. None of the organisations dealing with the issue have a brief or desire to consider a Scottish dimension
If Scotland want a Scottish dimension in the development of their country and in the resolution of such future difficulties it will only come from an independent state. Otherwise Scotland is signing up to being part of the UK undistinguishable from and subservient too the major partner.
However I don't think it is Salmond that is driving the independence argument, I think it is the English people and the 'British' institutions. The language of the English people is of an independent England not of a country that is part of a Union. That is how they see themselves. That is how the media project it. That is how the, so called, 'British' institutions behave. So the only offer on the table demonstrated by custom and practice is to be part on England. If the Scots don't like that then too bad the aggrandisement of England will continue unimpeded by Scottish views. The English people would braodly welcome Scottish independence as it would free them from one distraction of their own position.
In the coming budget cuts to recover from the present difficulties devolved Governments will be treated no better than Region Development Authorities which is how the devolved Governments are viewed by senior members of the Labour and Conservative parties and their advisers.
The problem with the solution that is in place and currently functioning is the Scot's view of their own status. Not shared by others in the Union.
Labour have to project, to the Scots, that they must defer to the greater government of Westminster, who do not have a Scottish dimension in their policies. Scottish Conservatives are in a worse position as it is a fair bet that Cameron will make them an independent Scottish Party--a bit like the Ulster Unionists -so that his message to the English peoples will be uncluttered.
Cameron is more likely to deliver independence to England than Salmond is to Scotland.
Complain about this comment
21. At 3:19pm on 31 Mar 2009, NewsStudent wrote:
"Tough times ahead for the countries that make the wrong choices."
Presumably, like if anyone is stupid enough to re-elect Gordon Brown.
Britain clearly already is one of the country's you referred to, due to its history of 12 years and more of chronic fiscal incompetence at the top.
Complain about this comment
Brian, Friends, and May I place before you the following thoughts, for your interest and education.
The scenario goes like this Lloyds TSB have a problem, with toxic loans and morgages, the FSA require assisting them out of a hole. HBOS have a problem, the FSA and their masters in the Treasury decide that Lloyds TSB should take over HBOS and Lloyds toxic problems will then be merged with HBOS toxic problems which the tax payer will under right and the same tax payer will provide Lloyds with a number of billions to help them put their collective house back into the black in the balance sheet.
Remember that Lloyds TSB was a merger created to remove the TSB a Scottish entity and give a pile of the readies that Lloyds were badly in need off at that time.
Up-date substitute Lloyds for Nationwide, and in place of HBOS, put DBS and £1.5 billion. Now go and smell the coffee, is it not that “coffee” that included WMD and Polaris, never mind 30 years of oil?
Complain about this comment
Brian
More from Dundee.
But Mr Keenan stressed he expects the SNP to use their influence with their party in government at Holyrood to bring jobs to Dundee.
I suppose the big question is since Labour were in power in Dundee for 30 years, and Labour have been in power at Westminster for 12 years, and Labour were in power at Holyrood for 8 years, what influence Mr Keenan used with his party to bring jobs to Dundee.
Do all Labour politicians think we are as stupid as them?
Complain about this comment
Does anyone else think we are just storing problems for the future by allowing the creation of ever larger financial institutions within the UK in the wake of the financial crisis?
Got to love the arrogance of Brown:
"You'd have been to poor to have coped on your own with the mess we created for you, just as well we were here to help you out of that mess."
"Better stay as we are in case it happens again in the future and we create another mess for you in which we'll tell you you're lucky you had our help yet again."
Now at the G20 he's trying to convince the international commuity on the need for various financial regulatroy measures. This from the man whose approach to regulation caused the present disaster? Is this a joke? Is there a lesson involved, in which he creates the mess then tells us how to get out of it?
I'm sorry, but you simply can't trust someone to rebuild your house after he burnt down the last one.
Will the G20 swallow the saviours guff? Course they will, he's Global Brown aka Thatcher incarnate.
Complain about this comment
My perception, as a Scot, is that the London Civil Service is deliberately weakening Scottish financial institutions whenever it can.
Complain about this comment
#42,
Dean.
If you had the ability to, for example, put out a fire in your garden but were prevented from doing so by your neighbour, who decides that HE wants to put out the fire instead, what would your reaction be ?
If, after he has put out the fire, he decides that the "price" for doing so is to hand the bit of your garden where the fire was over to somebody else "to make sure that the fire wouldn't happen again", what would your reaction be.
Especially if somebody else had offered to put the fire out but just weren't listened to.
Life is simple in Toryland, isn't it.
Jobs going, people's livelihoods at risk.
Was every option examined or was there another indecent hastily put together "rescue".
Us ranting cyber-nats do not think that this was in the interests of our nation.
You are free to disagree if you think that this "bailout" was in the interests of yours.
Complain about this comment
Yet another example of the BBC bashing the Scots and belitlling the SNP.
Last night on the English news they showed images of Scottish Notes while discussing DBS and debasing the “Scottish Financial System”, in other words Scottish money is worthless, an even greater excuse for our southern friends to refuse to take our money.
Then we have the constant whining of the nulabour about the banks being responsible for their own downfall, managers with no banking qualifications etc. Whilst there is no denying many of the risks taken were unacceptable, whos policies allowed the environment in which these risks were taken to flourish?
With a politics and a law degree between them what gives GB and AD the right to believe they have the knowledge to get us out of this financial mess when they are responsible for it in the first place.
Maybe they are both closet SNP supporters because they seem to be doing more for the cause of independence than agin it.
Complain about this comment
#51 Chiefy1724
Ooh, well put Chiefly ;-)
Complain about this comment
#26 hadrianswall
You are quite correct.However, playing Devil's advocate for a moment, within the UK context and in their respective capacities as UK Priminister and UK Chancellor of the Exchequer, they are, in fact, correct to look at the UK situation as a whole, even if what 'benefits' the UK as a whole, harms the part of the UK that they happen to represent. The fact that they are both Scottish is of no matter. Their roles require them to make UK based decisions.
It would be just as true if GB and AD were Yorkshiremen and decided to sell the Yorkshire BS to Nationwide. Would those of us here in Scotland be making any fuss at all if that scenario had come to pass? No. Of course not. Granted, Yorkshire doesn't have a devolved parliament fighting its corner but that is besides the point.
They are required by the responsibilities of their repective offices of State to put the UK as a whole ahead of its componant parts, regardless of any local sympathy that they may (or may not as is more likely the case with GB) have. I don't say it's right, and I don't say it's fair; we may not like the situation but that's how it is.
The only way to change it is through the ballot box and I hope that the people of Scotland, be they pro-independence or pro-union, choose to do that when next given the chance at the general election.
Complain about this comment
Forgive my ignorance and naievete, but can anyone answer the following questions, please?
- How much did Nationwide pay for DBS?
- What exactly did they get for their money?
- To whom did nationwide pay the money? I was under the impression that DBS was a mutual society with no shareholders. Was the purchase price paid out to the depositors?
Complain about this comment
#51 Chiefy1724
Very good post and a good analogy.
I thought that there would never ever be another politician that I would hate with the same fervor that I hate Thatcher, but I must admit Brown is coming close.
Maybe since he is from North Britain I should hate him more?
Complain about this comment
#54 Fit Like?
Well said, and it's for precisely those reasons that I believe that any confederal UK could only come after the "home" nations' sovereignty had been asserted at least to physically exercising full fiscal autonomy.
Until at least that point is reached, any adjustment of powers will be mere fiddling with the top-down devolution of power.
After it, meaningful discussion could begin on pooling limited amounts of sovereignty in the interest of economies of scale.
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
Complain about this comment
Hi folks,
Remember Sir Fred?
Yes, it all seems like a long time ago now, doesn't it?
I don't know why but a thought / conspiracy theory just popped into my head re the fragrant Sir Fred. (Probably inspired by the plethera of theories going the rounds re DBS at the moment).
He has been very good at being quiet hasn't he?
I'ts not possible that the very fair pension deal was to ensure that silence, was it?
Just a thought.
Best wishes.
Complain about this comment
#56 dubbieside
"I thought that there would never ever be another politician that I would hate with the same fervor that I hate Thatcher, but I must admit Brown is coming close."
Snap!
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
Complain about this comment
#58 bobbishop
"I'ts not possible that the very fair pension deal was to ensure that silence, was it?"
It's hard to think of any other reason for there beeing no follow-up of the Court of public opinion threats/promises.
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
Complain about this comment
The real question is whether the state should bail out failed banks at all. It seems utterly ridiculous to me that Scottish or UK tax payers should plough in billion after billion.
Irrespective of whether the institutions are Scottish (doubtful with HBoS or RBS, maybe with Dunfermline) why should I and my kids pay for decades to bail any of them out?
They lived by the market, they should die by the market too.
Complain about this comment
Anyone in urgent need of an emetic could do worse than taking a look at this website's Markets need 'family values' - PM, where Duff Gordon manages to go one up on his pre-G8 sermon on saving scraps just before getting out his doggy bag ready for the banquet.
He even quotes Martin Luther King in pursuit of the salvation of his own sorry neck.
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
Complain about this comment
@ 56 dubbieside
There you go again, playing the national victimhood card...ohh that evil Mrs Thatcher...she was 20 years ago and the effects of her administration are limited at best today.
It is really so annoying for me as a Scot to have to see that so many of my compriots would rather moan about evils done 20 years ago, and rant about being oppressed by the BBC (how Incredulous must you be?).
It honestly is pathetic.
Complain about this comment
bobbishop, 58,
We can all be assured that Freddie Freeloader's separation contract will be so tightly drafted that he stills needs the RBS Board's approval to change his socks, never mind talking to the press about anything!!
Complain about this comment
Dundee fell to the SNP last night, Brian, and
Labour is now in turmoil - in your native city!
Complain about this comment
#52. skintybroko wrote:
"With a politics and a law degree between them what gives GB and AD the right to believe they have the knowledge to get us out of this financial mess when they are responsible for it in the first place.
Maybe they are both closet SNP supporters because they seem to be doing more for the cause of independence than agin it."
... Agreed, GB and AD are two Genny Long Legs in a very sticky web... the more they struggle, the quicker the outcome!
Saor Alba!
Complain about this comment
#61 irnbru-addict,
Agreed, which is why the SNP and AS's Government were proposing a loan situation to re-float the DBS with the view to helping it through the hard times at no eventual cost to the tax payer (possibly even a profit)...
... instead, GB & AD's Nu-Lab, unfortunately, have just cost the tax-payer a fair whack with their (politically motivated) solution.
... but hey, I guess we are still talking pennies compared to the shocking cost of porn these days... eh guys? *;o)
Complain about this comment
Just to set the record clear as to how much the Dunfermline needed to keep them independent, according to Jim Faulds, the Dunfermline chairman, £26m not £60m to £100m which the Labour party claim they need!
http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/politics/domestic_politics/dunfermline+chairmans+anger/3054357
Jim Faulds was given the run around by Labour. The governments last contact directly with Dunfermline building society was last October! Jim Faulds messages were never replied to.
Gordon Brown showed no interest in the Dunfermline and did not respond to Jims countless correspondence!
I suppose he has been busy saving the world!
Complain about this comment
#61. irnbru_addict
"The real question is whether the state should bail out failed banks at all. It seems utterly ridiculous to me that Scottish or UK tax payers should plough in billion after billion."
I totally agree but the trouble is the banks are at the top of the hierarchy and government are their servants, that's how capitalism works.
Complain about this comment
I love Skeletor in this...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nU3qUt2Xb6k
*;o)
Complain about this comment
A few comments here about only 26m needed for DBS.
Now, I do not know the full facts and figures etc, and I am not making any criticisms of the Scottish Government.
However, DBS is expected to make a 26m loss. It is not this figure that is the problem - it is the assets and liabilities.
We need to know the true figures here. If they are considerably higher, then 26m would not be enough, certainly in the short term.
But again I ask - who is asking the board of DBS exactly HOW did they get into this mess in the first place?
Another worrying point is why Mr Faulds was not made aware of the bid from the consortium? Or is there insider information going on here?
Complain about this comment
#68 scottish_solstice
Thanks for the link to Faulds on Channel 4. Curiouser and curiouser that HMG don't send a hapless junior Treasury Minister to avoid answering the questions while he smiles at the camera. Worse still that they clearly have zero intention of releasing the KPMG report. Wonder if Brian & co have even asked for it?
In my search for any news of it, I came across Moridura's blog, which has as good a summary of the story so far as I've seen.
All the facts, Brian? Not by a long chalk, I'd say.
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
Complain about this comment
#71 Neil,
Assets and liabilities are only perceived values.
What I mean by that is that the well banded around in the media 'toxic debts' statement does not tell the full truth.
I will give you an example... I buy a house at 100k, 3 years ago. The house is now valued at 90k... this the government would say is a 'toxic debt' of 10k (as there is no collateral to support it).
However, history has tought us that economies will naturally recover after a recession. The house may well be worth 110k in 2 years time.
The point I am making is that this reactive politics is short sighted. We all should know that everything only has a value (in monetary terms) if there are people willing to pay that particular value.
If not, the thing is worth less and indeed, if there is far more purchaser interest, then the price rises (highest bidder and all that).
The same is true for the stock markets and banks. Everyone is freaking about 'toxic debt' when in actual fact, as long as the oil flows to enable continued economic growth, we really do not have anything to worry about and this will prove to be just another market fluctuation.
The bottom line is that you only really need to worry when the oil production (globally) starts to go into decline causing permanent market contractions and quite likely ending with a resulting inevitable human population contraction.
Sweet dreams!
Complain about this comment
#71 Neil_Small147
"We need to know the true figures here."
What we need, Neil, is the KPMG report, to be able to analyse the data for ourselves - something neither Duff Gordon nor Capn Darling have the numeracy skills to do. It's sad that the only LibDem making a fuss is Rennie. Cable does have the necessary skills.
Is there any chance that HMG or the FSA will release it? Not, it would seem, unless it is dragged, screaming, to do so via an FOI from the media.
Will that happen from a staunchly unionist media? Snowflakes and infernal regions spring to mind.
Oh, and by the way, according to Faulds - none of whose statements have been refuted by ministers so far - they made a small operating profit for 2008. As a mutual, they're not supposed to make big profits. The £26m is a provision against possible future losses.
I promise that if the data is forthcoming to prove Faulds was lying I will issue a public apology, but I'd say that the Court of public opinion will regard him as innocent until proven guilty and put the burden of proof on HMG and will not be losing any sleep at the prospect.
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
Complain about this comment
I agree with much of the sentiment already expressed. I don't believe for one moment that the options presented to us as being the only ones available to these Scottish institutions by Brown et al are at all the only path back to systemic stability.
I believe Brown and Darling have been seduced by power, by that self-contained English ruling-class environment they have found and then immersed themselves in so long that they believe everything must be done to preserve it. As McDiarmid warned all those years ago: Scots should fear the Anglo-Scot the most - though not the one writing this post I hasten to add ;-)
I think the UK government are operating a scorched earth policy towards Scotland to dissuade Scots from voting for independence. It's hugely damaging last-ditch stuff from that wounded and dying animal called Union. I'm beyond caring how alarmist this sounds. There's no other explanation.
I have finally lost all patience and tolerance for the far-from-saintly Brian. I think his objectivity is a sham. He's nothing but a mouthpiece for the Nulab Union at all costs 'narrative'. I daresay the only nation that matters to Brian is the Dundee of his own mind and I genuinely think only a full scale Unionist attack on it could ever come close to prompting him into anything like the journalistic action we would all be so grateful for at present. And if that genuinely meant bitter pills for the Nationalists to swallow I as a Nationalist would accept that. But I don't accept this. On your own conscience though be it sir.
Complain about this comment
When is Scotland going to get the politically neutral coverage it deserves from its publicly-funded "national" broadcaster?
Complain about this comment
@ 70. BoNG0_1
You cannot moan about the evil NuLab party, manipulating the system and characaturing SNP MSPs then turn around and resort to the same amateur tactics as you have.
All I'm saying is that it aint' funny and it lowers the tone. Make a case, present an argument- don't through mud like a good little Ruport Murdoch blogger.
Complain about this comment
#75 bluelaw,
It is not just BT at fault. There is a whole dying breed of Unionist and 'Always-Loyal-To-The-Trade-Union' types in Scotland (Usually the older generations IMO) who have never necessarily voted the best people for the job, but have always voted by their traditions and allegiances.
...well 'tradition' indicates the past, Scotland must not be that, it must be the future.
It really is time!
Complain about this comment
Given that the Government has apparently taken on all of the 'toxic debt,' DBS was left as a (presumably) profitable entity.
Subject to the removal of those directors and executives who led the organisation down its ill-fated path, and a requirement to reimburse HM Treasury over time for any loss associated with the debt assumed at a national level, why could DBS not have been simply allowed to start with a 'blank sheet' - akin to the position of a company which entered administration.
It appears that the taxpayer gets any downside which crystallises (as it surely will), whilst Nationwide gets only upside.
Complain about this comment
#75 bluelaw
"He's nothing but a mouthpiece for the Nulab Union at all costs 'narrative'."
I've been saying this for a year and been shouted down for it. However as NuLab get more and more desperate the BBC's spin tactics get more desperate. I can't believe there's anyone left who seriously believes the ridiculous Unionist claims of BBC "impartiality".
The sheer weight of subtle digs at the SNP, the patently unwarranted admiration for Bendy Wendy then Iain Gray, ignoring issues that seriously affect the Scottish people in favour of oh-so-carefully reworded Scottish Labour press releases, the whole lot adds up to an absolute scandal.
I have every confidence the Scottish public will not put up with this Pravda-like distortion of the truth for very much longer.
Complain about this comment
#77 "don't through [throw?] mud like a good little Rupert Murdoch blogger",
I couldn't agree more, can we have less like this please? Scottish Government is just doing its job sticking up for Scotland.
Funny how when Tories attack the DBS deal it is principled, but when it is the SNP we are back to this "picking fights" narrative!
42. At 4:29pm on 31 Mar 2009, deanthetory wrote:
Yet another financial institution going to the dogs. This really is depressing. And all Westminster Labour and Holyrood SNP can do is fight with each other! ARENT WE MISSING SOMETHING? peoples jobs, livelyhood and homes are under threat, for gos sake lets all put our agendas to ne side and get behind anything that can save people from the cold grasp of morgage defaulting, unemployment and destitution.
Complain about this comment
re:#76,
Will I be allowed to politely question why on earth we pay for the BBC through a form of taxation, when they churn out such pro-Labour propaganda?
I know the Tories said they would freeze your funding, but its a bit drastic to back the Labour Party across the board in response!
Complain about this comment
#77, Sheesh Deanthetory, did you undergo a humour removal operation recently?
*;o9
...how about this one...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SeLSNzEorbI
...oh come on smile, it's almost the weekend *;o)
Complain about this comment
deanthetory
Do not lecture me about Thatcher. You have only read about her in your tory history books.
Thatcher inflicted on Scotland an economic policy someone had read out of a book to her.
The memory of her is why your party will never fill a car with their Scottish Westminster mps.
I was glad to see the Holyrood torys keep up their reputation as the evil party by trying to stop a proper government reducing the tax on the sick.
By the way being criticized by you is like being attacked by a dead sheep. Now where have you heard that before, an attack on another of the evil parties yes Maggie you are entirely right maggie, cabinet.
Keep pounding the pavements, but you aint getting a Westminster seat.
Complain about this comment
#79, absolutely...
...The one absolute fact to be evident in this fiasco is that there were multiple other options that London, Brown and Darling rapidly moved to steamroller...
...for whatever reasons is for the public to decide!
Complain about this comment
#42, deanthetory:
All well and good, if a tad melodramatic, but if DBS was being mismanaged, then it is right and proper that it should go to the wall - as a good Tory, you should know that the market is king.
The point is that DBS was providing a fundamental (if not literally essential) service, and if it had simply ceased trading, then one or more others would have moved in to take its place, and THEY would have created jobs - replacing those lost through DBS's collapse. At worst, those with otherwise somewhat precarious tenure would have been strengthened.
If it was an economic decision - that it was cheaper to mount a 'rescue' than to pay social security benefits, etc., in the short-term - then it would have been far more sanguine than has been the case in all previous interventions since the beginning of the rot with Northern Rock.
Remember, the Government has an incentive to avoid 'full employment,' since its achievement would negate the necessity for Jobcentres, etc., putting the employees thereof onto the (by then non-existent) dole queue.
Complain about this comment
Englandrise:
#1.
"All the facts? All the analysis?
You seem to have neglected the fact that the Dunfermline Building Society's toxic debt has been taken on by the "UK" taxpayer - which is 80% the English taxpayer.
Do you agree with Will Hutton that a big thanks to the English taxpayer is in order?
And chaps please try to resist mentioning Shetland' oil - you will start getting their backs up.
I'm not blaming Scotland by the way just the Scot that has been in charge of the "UK" finances for the last decade."
I'd like to point out something. As you are English, then you know what is London's primary business happens to be?
If you don't know, London is heavily involved and survives upon the financial services... the same type of services that has followed America's way of trading, and we could suggest has to take some responsibility for the economic crises?
This is case, perhaps you should be less cheeky, and apologise to the rest of the United Kingdom?
Oh, and considering that our banks etc have been exposed because of poor regulation, and using your mathematics the Englaish make up 80 percent of the population... then perhaps we should pin the blame on our southern neighbours.
Afterall you appear tyo be in the driving seat, what could tiny Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland do right?
But you are fortunate that, well, the Scot's up north (I can't speak for Northern Ireland or Wales) do not seek to pin the blame or seek some type of glorified position over the English.
We are in this together, may it hurt your ears or not, but it's true.It's an international problem, amplified by our own British regulations and we should be focused on reversing the problem.
Complain about this comment
#82, pattymkirkwood:
As long as you can recognise it as such, then the propagandists have failed in their objective...
Complain about this comment
Brian,
If the comments in response to your blog entries are any indicator: the Nats think you're pro-Labour, the unionists (small 'u') think you're pro-SNP, the Tories think you're simply agin' them (excepting the torch you carry for Ms Goldie) and the LibDems think you ignore them.
Like football commentator Archie Macpherson - whose Old Firm 'affiliation' was always opposite any fan's own - if you can offend everyone in equal measure, you must be doing something right.
Complain about this comment
It's not just the bagpipes that can do a good lament.
Alec Salmond and his chorus of beauties deserve some of the limelight too !
Their lament is called "SNP Spin".
Complain about this comment
#88, indeed, but some people trust the BBC implicitly as they believe the constantly trumpeted "neutrality" of the organisation (which has been lacking ever since the Iraq War), that is what makes it so scary to see this blatantly pro-Labour streak coming to the fore.
& #89 Archie MacPherson is clearly a Hun btw (I say that as a despairing Kilmarnock fan, who dislikes both halves of the Old Firm equally).
Complain about this comment
#71 Neil_Small147
The charman explains it Neil...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZR3SICn4Z58
Complain about this comment
Scottie-b asked:
- To whom did nationwide pay the money? I was under the impression that DBS was a mutual society with no shareholders. Was the purchase price paid out to the depositors?
I would very much like to know about this too! I am a member of the DBS, and certainly haven't received any money from Nationwide. Did Nationwide pay the Treasury? I haven't seem this properly explained in the press.
Complain about this comment
#89, "if you can offend everyone in equal measure, you must be doing something right."
...Journalism is not about neutrality and sitting on the fence!
Heck, if that were the case then in 1942, Hitler would have had some good press in Allied countries!
It should be about reporting the facts as they are... I refer you to my post #85.
Complain about this comment
#90 newsjock
Watch out Brian, newsjock could be vying to nick your job!!
Complain about this comment
Deanthetory
You might find something here about Thatcher and why she and her nasty party will always be despised by the vast majority of Scots
The Thatcher Years.
tinyurl.com/apj7lw
You could say round the streets of Bannockburn why you are proud to support a party who were inflicted on Scotland.
Complain about this comment
#90 Newsjock,
Salmond has simply asked a few questions... I have seen no 'spin' in the questions that I as a Scot and taxpayer would demand our politicians ask. Mr Salmond, in my opinion, is doing his job in asking them. The fact that Labourites get upset about this says more about them than it does the Scottish Government.
...Oh.. and one last thing... the word 'Spin' to me is a word synonomous with none other than Tony Blair & Brown's Nu-Labour.
...is it not a bit rich (and possibly copyright?) to tar anyone else with it?
Complain about this comment
#72 Brownedov
Great blog link, thanks!
I did see other footage of Jim Faulds, he clearly stated that there was lack of communication and interest from the UK Labour party!
However, he did say that he got "a nice cup of tea" from one member!
Complain about this comment
#98... bet it was an Earl Grey too *;o)
Complain about this comment
Ref comment 68, forget everything else you read on this subject, if what the guy from the DBS says is true then there is something rotten in the state of Britain. The BBC have a public service duty to perform in investigating every word in that C4 interview and shouting the truth from the rooftops. I am by nature cynical and no lover of the government but this is so far beyond the pale it makes me sick.
And finally,,where were the BBC on this one???
Complain about this comment
Here it comes, expect the Labour spin machine to go into overdrive,
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/7974867.stm
Imagine the undignified sight of Obama delicately removing the Broon steadfastedly clinging to his shoes.
Complain about this comment
#99
Of course, it would be the best possible tea the tax payer could afford!
It was Lord Myners, Murphy sent Jim Faulds to him and that's all he got, a cup of tea ..... without a scone!
Labour has obviously used this situation for political reasons, even Glen Campbell found it a tough one to swallow.... now that says something!
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/economics/article5950170.ece
Complain about this comment
I haven't seen Unionists on here accuse Brian of SNP bias. This says as much as anything.
The SNP are right to remain on the sidelines. They are right to show how ineffective their devolved card is and that the only pertinence they can bring to bear is asking a few searching questions though no doubt behind closed doors they are furious. However, if they come out all guns blazing when it's a done deal anyway the govt with their BBC-led spin machine will then be handed a 'get out of jail card' as the attack dogs go for Salmond et al and the pendulum of media attention swings merrily away from the govt; cue photo-op for Brown with Obama just for a bit of added sting amidst the endlessly repetitive "narrative" of how grateful the 'Jocks' should be for being bailed out by 'us' yet again...
I am glad that Faulds has been so plain-speaking. His case seems rock-solid. He even managed an apology for what had gone on before. He has come out of this with honour IMO. Yes honour, look it up, it does exist, allegedly...
Complain about this comment
50 years on what will their legacy be?
Thatcher - destroying Scotland's manufacturing industry and the sermon on the mound.
Major - warm beer, the sound of leather on willow, sleeze and taking stock.
Blair - lies and war.
Brown - the unelected guy with the teeth who got us all into debt.
Salmond - patriot who led Scotland to independance.
Very much looking forward to Gordon making an absolute prat of himself and his party this week. Alas, poor people in Scotland, the rest of Europe and further afield, will pay for Browns vanity and quest for re-election.
TDBs
Complain about this comment
#35 Brownedov
Thank you Brownedov (delayed because I'm shy ;-D)
"Straight from the heart"? Maybe, I was aiming for "straight to the point!
Complain about this comment
I think it is about time that it was realised and recognised that the continuous referring to RBS and HBOS as "Scottish " banks is political spin.
HBOS is a large English concern which took over BOS in 2001. Its top management recently who determined its behaviour is not vaguely Scottish. Over 90% of its business was outside of Scotland.
RBS indeed remained Scottish with a Scottish HQ but the vast majority of its a business also is outside of Scotland.
RBS for instance is also Ulster Bank and Nat West and a number of other banks around the world.
They both (HBOS and RBS) are in actuality British banks and a part of RBS's problem was that it very quickly became the most successful one.
There was an assertion made in an earlier post that an independent Scotland could not have raised the capital to save its banks. This is, of course, no more than an unsupported assertion.
"But the UK government does not have the money either and will borrow it from the world money markets in the form of a gilt auction
An independent Scotland could, arguably, have done the same."
So said the Scotsman (hardly a friend of the independence movement). An independent Scotland would only be concerned with saving the bits of banks that operated in Scotland - the same way as the Irish moved first and fast to save theirs.
Complain about this comment
#61
I'm with Irnbruaddict
Complain about this comment
#63
The evils of Thatcherism and Reaganism is the root cause of our economic crisis at the moment.
Twenty years is a blink of the eye in historical terms
Complain about this comment
#63 Dean, Thatcher's vandalism of the Scottish economy and people isn't mere history for some of the people here.
& now "History repeats itself, first as tragedy, second as farce."
Complain about this comment
#63 Dean.
You weren't there. Most of us were.
I actually WAS a member of the Tory party at the time in my youthful, naeive, crusading enthusiasm for a social darwinistic better world.
I dined with Cabinet Ministers and had a signed photo of Maggie on my desk.
Then I went out into the real world.
Outside the comfy cloisters of my University. I saw the devastation that Tory policy had wreaked and I saw the arrogance and ignorance of my fellow party members boasting that the Party would be in power for generations.
Later, I crossed back to my cloistered University as a Lecturer and saw kids who should never have been within a thousand miles of a degree course struggling through to keep off the dole queues.
Dean, your experiences now will inform you for later life and much as me, you will look back on them. You say that you are a proud Scot. Stay that way. I was as well, and even then, I could never contemplate being anything other than a Tory.
Time will change you. It changes us all. Very few of us hold the same views that we did when we were in our early 20s.
You are a Tory and a Scot at an interesting time.
But learn the lessons of History. The Party devastated Scotland. Twenty years ago today, the Poll Tax was brought in in Scotland. Nearly half of the population didn't pay. Why ?
An old joke from the time.
Scotland should actually be called Disneyland.
Disnae matter
Disnae count
Disnae vote Tory
And Dean, until the Party puts its hands up and says Sorry, it never will.
Complain about this comment
Normally, I am content to follow BT’s blogs and subsequent discussion without feeling the need to take part in the debate.
However, in the case of BT’s most recent blogs (on very closely related topics) – ‘Nationalists Need New Narrative’ and ‘Here we go Again’, there have been a number of points which I feel either need expanded upon, or have been completely missed. With this in mind I toss the following ramblings into the melting pot.
# Dean – ‘Evil’s done 20 years ago…’
Now I understand that you are too young to comprehend the magnitude of the ‘Evils’ perpetrated by Margaret Thatcher on the people of Scotland (and indeed Wales & Northern England) and the lasting hatred/suspicion that perhaps the majority of Scots over the age of 40 still have for the woman.
I also understand that you are a Tory in the ‘old’ Caring Conservatism style, preached loudly again by Auntie Annabel and her Scottish cronies.
What you need to understand is that the broken Society we have today is a direct result of the Thatcherist dogma ‘There is no such thing as society’
More importantly, the English Conservative party is liberally sprinkled with ‘Thatcher’s Children’ and come the next election, when the Tories are voted back by middle England, Scotland will once again be governed an ultra right wing English Tory cabal.
OK you may say, we have had Labour for the last 12 years and they must be at least partly responsible. Yes they had the opportunity, but decided instead to go down the NuLabour (or neo-Thatcherist) path, with one of Gordon Brown’s first acts as chancellor being to decimate the Pension system with a raid on the country’s Pension Scheme’s. Nu Labour has proven to be not much better than Thatcherist Conservatism.
DBS /‘Nationalists Need New Narrative’
Brian, for ‘Narrative’ read ‘Spin’ and I for one am content for the SNP Scottish Government to leave the Spin to NuLab. The course that the SNP have chosen is to DEMONSTATE that effective Scottish Government is worth more to the people of Scotland that empty NuLab spin.
Consider this, halfway through the current Scottish Parliament – the Scottish people have benefitted by SNP carrying out their pledges (when not thwarted by a combined unionist opposition) viz:
- Cuts in the Scottish Prescription Charges
- Halfway towards the promise of an increase of 1000 police on the ground over the lifetime of the parliament
- Bridge Tolls abolished
- University course fees abolished
- Teacher/pupil ratios cut.
Contrast the way that SNP run the Scottish Parliament, with the debacles in Labour run Glasgow (the latest is City Building), the Lib Dem disaster in Aberdeen, and the Tory led ‘Angus Alliance’ shambles.
Alex Salmond knows that he can keep his powder dry until really needed; the run up to the next election – he has plenty of evidence to blow NuLab claims out of the water (and if he needs any more he should check out Aye-Writes ‘Quirkynats’ Press Articles-Scottish finances).
What better Narrative is needed than:
- Vote Scottish Labour – Get English Tories
- Vote Scottish Tory – Get English Tories
- Vote Lib Dem – Get English Tories
- Vote SNP - Get a Voice for Scotland!
And in the interim if the Gray man is silly enough to raise ‘DBS’ at First Minister’s Question Time then Salmond has the evidence to wipe the floor with him again.
Angus.
Complain about this comment
#63 deanthetory -
" . . . ohh that evil Mrs Thatcher . . . she was 20 years ago and the effects of her administration are limited at best today."
To paraphrase the late, great Bill Hicks -
"People say to me, "Bill, quit bringing up Thatcher, man. Let it go. It was a long time ago." Alright, then don't bring up Jesus to me. I mean, as long as we're talking shelf-life here."
Complain about this comment
Dean ...
The supply side of the oil industry in the UK is dominated primarily by American and Norwegian and some French companies. These are the big global players that took advantage of Thatcher's "level playing field" policy in the 80s and have never looked back.
In contrast, Thatcher and her chums in the City chose not to support UK let alone Scottish company efforts and in fact she deliberately and cynically killed of Britoil (the UK equivalent of Statoil) and British Underwater Engineering (based in Edinburgh).
Also remember that Thatcher killed off wind turbine technology development and of course fast breeder reactor technology at Dounreay.
The fact that Labour have essentially followed her industrial policy by delegating it to the City is something we will regret for decades if not forever.
Complain about this comment
#108 sneckedagain.
Much as it will surprise you, I'm in agreement.
Thatcher's biggest folly was imposing the poll tax on Scotland first. (I was living in England at the time).
She did it as she knew Scotland was irrelevant to the Tories in political terms.
I did support some of her policies, especially after the mess that Labour left the UK in 1979.
But part of the problem with the loss of manufacturing has to be blamed on the unions. Total inflexibility on their part mirrored Thatcher's attitudes as well. Both managed to screw up Scotland.
Complain about this comment
Is Dean the Tory really Scottish? Dean is a name I very much associate with the SE of England and not Scotland somehow. Does anyone remember the infamous 'only tory in Scotland' sketch by Absolutely back in the late 80's?
Anyway, I would like to echo the disgust shown towards Thatcher. Her blindly vindictive and venal commitment to her ideology meant that she was in terms of economic policy a gross incompetent of which many modern British woes can be placed at her doorstep. Not that she cared though. As long as her avaricious political base remained loyal and her cronies got their 'just' desserts the rest didn't matter at all. And please don't bother responding to this post with any revisionist 'saviour of Britain' nonsense about her. This Scot is not for listening...
Complain about this comment
A lot of talk of Thatcher in this thread, and I feel it is quite appropriate.
Whether at a subliminal level ( or, for me at least, a blatantly obvious one!) the parallels between "then" and "now" are obvious.
Thatcher always gave Scotland the end of the stick with the smelly brown stuff on it.
Devenport favoured over Rosyth, Port Talbot favoured over Ravenscraig, Derbyshire pits favoured over Scottish Pits, etc, etc, etc.
In each case, superior scottish centres of industry were sacrificed to save inferior southern ones. Happened every time.
It's the reason I switched allegiance from Tory to SNP. A blind man could see it.
Well, exactly the same is happening now. Current target financial services.
All UK financial services are in trouble. Mostly Short term. Purely for political gain, Brown is sacrificing the industry in Scotland to save it down south.
At least Thatcher was more honest about it. She made no pretence of her disregard for Scotland.
Brown and Labour still maintain to be Scotland's party while decimating it and doing down the aspirations of the people.
Well you cannot fool all of the peope all of the time, and you will undoubtedly reap what you sow Mr Brown.
Its Time.
Complain about this comment
If you were in charge of the UK gopvernment and you thought that Scotland would be likely to break away from the union, then wouldn't you too be inclined to destroy the Scottish financial sector. Remember the 'Darien' project. It seems to me that 'Butcher Broon' is forcing the Scots to their financial knees in preparation for the referendum. I also suspect that the Scottish manufacturing base will duly be attacked and destroyed (what's left of it) and then the UK government will hit the Scots for a bill saying that they had to step in and save them from themselves. Raid the Scottish treasuries and then double whammy the Scots by billing them for the theft of its economy.
As to 'all the facts', Brian; where are they? You are meant to be our journalist; where are all the facts. Put those facts before us.
Complain about this comment
There's a lot of talk about Lord St John of Fawsley's "Sainted Margaret" in this thread, but I'm old enough to remember what life was like BEFORE the first Thatcher administration (1979-1983).
Comparing THEN to now, this country (whether you define that as UK or just Scotland) is a far better place in 2009.
The first six or seven years of the Iron Lady's premiership were magnificent for the country - as a result of which the nation will never again be held to ransom by militant trade unionists unable to come to term with the fact that democracy means EVERYONE gets a say (and that say might not espouse Marxist philosophy), to name but one advance during that period - but, as with any whose Government which goes on too long (about 8-9 years is the optimum), she (and it) suffered the inevitable fall from grace.
Yo-yo politics (Labour and Conservative governments interchanged at 5 or 6 year intervals) was, ironically, good for political stability: each incoming administration would spend the first half of its term trying to undo what the previous lot had done on ideological grounds, and then didn't have enough time left to do any real harm to the country.
Thatcher was swept in with a mandate to implement a raft of policies which benefited the nation (even if VAT rationalisation disproportionately penalised those on lower incomes), but once those policies had been enacted the Tories had to find something else to do ... and then something else.
So-called sleaze is a inversely proportional to the amount of 'work' a politician has to do.
By this stage in the current Government's tenure (comparable to 1988-89), the only work which Ministers have to do is that which they make for themselves since they probably put in place the policies most in need of change and are loath to admit failure.
To those who remember (or with to focus entirely upon) only the bad days at the tail-end of the Thatcher administration (or the subsequent six-and-a-half years of John Major as PM), I reiterate that I consider that they were but a way-station en route to where we are now.
The failures of the financial services sector could have been averted if the current LABOUR Government had been true to its roots, and had seen capitalism as an evil to be stamped upon; the lack of regulation was all too apparent following the demise of Robert Maxwell, MC.
But Tony tried to out-Tory the Tories, and HIS recession may well knock into a cocked-hat any which went before.
Complain about this comment
Since Thatcher and the poll tax seem to be back on the agenda it's a good time to remind Scots that after the next election (which Labour have no chance of winning) England will be ruled by the Tories. Do Scots want to suffer another 20 years of being treated as tax guinea pigs by Lord Snooty?
We have the power to reject the Tories and Labour. Both have miserably failed the Scottish people. This is our opportunity to make a clean break, a fresh start, choose independence.
Complain about this comment
Since I'm on a roll, I'll even say that I thought the Community Charge was A GOOD IDEA: that each and every adult should contribute equally to the costs associated with the provision of public services (since each could be expected to consume public services at a comparable level) is an obvious fairness.
(It was noticeable that the most vociferous opposition came from those young adults still expecting their parents to pay for their lifestyles just because they didn't want to be bothered to fly the nest.)
Of course, LIT is better - provided that ALL income is taken into account.
Complain about this comment
How much did Nationwide pay for DBS, or the good part of the Society? The chairman isn't answering except to say that given the current financial position they paid a fair market price. In other words the Nationwide got the good part for a song.
Complain about this comment
I am at a loss to know how anyone can justify the poll tax.
It was a typical tory tax, tax the poor disproportionately against the rich. (The tradition being carried on by Brown doubling of the 10p tax band)
The multi millionaire in his mansion paid the same as an old age pensioner in her single end. Really fair and equable.
The present cuddly torys, auntie Bella are still the same but with better spin. Their blocking of local income tax along with opposition to reducing the health tax, shows they have not changed their support the rich at all cost philosophy, they just try to disguise it better.
Cameron is coming to a town near you after the next election. He will try to out Thatcher, Thatcher to appeal to his Southern England base.
I warn you not to be poor, not to be sick, and not to be unemployed or you will suffer from the next installment from the nasty party.
Complain about this comment
Thatcher created record unemployment, destroyed major industries in a way our competitors never did, started a war that was avoidable and set about destroying much of the fabric of British society whilst paradoxically playing the patriotic card at every opportunity.
She deregulated everything she could get a hold of which led years later to BSE in the farming industry and the mess of the current financial service industry and our absurd reliance upon it. Not to mention running the NHS into the ground and leaving us with a infrastructure barely that is an embarrassment in comparison to countries like France and Germany, countries we once genuinely believed we were equal to if not better than in these regards.
She wasted then newly available North Sea oil revenues on funding tax cuts for the rich and did everything she could to make us a proxy of the USA so in awe of their economic neo-liberalism was she as well as whoring us out to every foreign tender that could undercut the domestic competition such was her ideological madness.
Added to that the huge divisions she presided over in this country which undoubtedly worsened under her and you have one helluva price to pay for reining in a few unions. Of course that ignores the criminal mistreatment of British workers for centuries and the obscene profits made literally off their backs that had finally led to such union intransigence in the late C20 to begin with. But we'll regard that as moot for now.
And btw don't take my word for it. Ask why the Tories did for her in the first place and why very recent ill-health aside ever since she left office they've kept her out of the political limelight as much as possible. That says it all.
Complain about this comment
Brian,
The plethora of bloggers on this thread now have an answer courtesy of Scotland Live where host Bill Whiteford was questioning the 'weesleekitmurphybeastie' himself about the plan to hold a UK cabinet meeting in Glasgow. Bill asked the question: 'Is this part of your war with the SNP?' 'Not at all' said weesleekit and proceeded to move on to other matters.
That tacit acknowledgement says it all really.
There is no grand economic vision at play here, there is no concern for iconic Scottish institutions.
Instead, Labour policy north of the border is now acknowledged as being 'war with the SNP'!
We all (except the Labour-controlled media) accepted that was the case, but now the formal admission has been put on the public record.
The complete moral and political bankruptcy of Nu-Labour has been confirmed in less than 20 words by the 'weesleekitbeastie'
Complain about this comment
The "new narrative" Brian was suggesting we need is being written without the SNP having to do a lot.
It is that Nulabour and Brown and Darling at the very least don't care about Scottish national institutions.
It has become completely obvious to everybody that the money borrowed to merge HBOs with Lloyds and to give DBS to Nationwide could have been as well used to maintain both these institutions as independent companies.
Could Brown be the first sitting PM to lose his seat at a General Election?
Complain about this comment
bluelaw
And btw don't take my word for it. Ask why the Tories did for her in the first place and why very recent ill-health aside ever since she left office they've kept her out of the political limelight as much as possible. That says it all.
The only person who res erected her politically was Brown trying to out tory the torys. Commissioned portrait, state funeral etc.
Like everything he touches it crumbles, so much so that his second back slapping meeting with her was changed from Downing Street to Checkers with her whisked in hoping that no body would see her.
Do you think Dean has gone to lie down in a darkened room?
Complain about this comment
115 Bluelaw
I've retired from this constantly looping paranoia-fest but I can't let this go!
"Is Dean the Tory really Scottish?"
For the benefit of new contributors, Bluelaw grew up in Surrey and now lives abroad. He's about as Scottish as I am...probably less so seeing as I have actually lived there for a period. I treat his accusaton with hollow laughter.
Complain about this comment
Obama praisses Gordon Brown!
Oh, well, it is April 1st!
;-)
Complain about this comment
Re Community Charge:
Iniquities exist on both sides:
Why should a widow whose children had their own families and who was struggling to make ends meet have had the same liability (with respect to funding local government) as the couple living next-door with three grown-up children all five in employment?
As I said above, LIT is my preferred option but at least the Community Charge meant that the number of people benefitting from local services was the same as the number of people paying for them.
To return to the above two households and to use but one of many possible examples: if all of the adults had cars, then the 'full' household was in all probability using the road network five times as much; why should they not have been required to contribute to the costs of the Roads department (that proportion thereof related to local government expenditure) in proportion?
There are winners and losers in any taxation system; that is (in part) why we have elections, so that we can choose which party's policies, and funding proposals therefor, we prefer.
Complain about this comment
Like most things in life, a little bit of Thatcherism was good for us - yes, it was - but we were force-fed so much of it that we gagged.
Had the Labour Party come to its senses sooner, and the Tories had lost the 1987 election, we would have had all of the upside of that period of Conservative rule without the downside which came later.
Everything which should have been privatised had already been so; going after the railways was a step too far. (And I have no doubt that The Post office would inevitably have followed had Mrs T led the party to victory in 1991 or 1992.)
Complain about this comment
Who was to blame for the excesses of Thatcherism and the uber-Conservatism of the late 1980s and early 1990s?
Neil Kinnock
Complain about this comment
#125, sneckedagain:
"Could Brown be the first sitting PM to lose his seat at a General Election?"
I rather think not, since rumblings suggest that the Prime Minister will time the announcement of the date of the next General Election (with somewhat greater notice than has come to be seen as usual) to coincide with his announcement that he will not seek re-election to Parliament.
Being a good constitutionalist (Labour-wise, at least), he will ensure that the date of the announcement of the next leader of the Party will be the date of the dissolution of parliament and campaigning can start in earnest.
Technically, Gordon Brown could continue to hold office (as PM) during the campaign, but if - as seems most likely - a Labour defeat is to be anticipated, his successor as Party leader may be installed if only for the attendant prestige.
Complain about this comment
Re a state funeral for Thatcher: I wonder if this was actually a test for 'Call Me Dave.'
Cameron knows that the majority of his party's members still revere the Iron Lady; would he dare to say "Never, never, never," to the suggestion of such an honour for his predecessor (coming across sounding like a poor quality Ian Paisley tribute act)?
On the other hand, if he said, "Me too!" then Labour would have pounced and claimed that it would be back to 'the bad old days' if the country returned a Conservative government after the General Election, possibly with a spurious claim that Cameron intended to rename "Number 10" as "Thatcher Towers."
Complain about this comment
The responsibility for what Thatcher did lies with her and her alone. The opposition may have been ineffectual but that's not an excuse for what she presided over.
FWIW I have never denied growing up in the SE of England - it's why I believe Scotland must become independent. I am Scottish even if I am undeniably an Anglo of sorts. I wasn't attacking Dean. It was a genuine inquiry.
Complain about this comment
#127 Anglophone
"He's about as Scottish as I am...probably less so seeing as I have actually lived there for a period. I treat his accusaton with hollow laughter."
And your point is? Look at your own User Profile and you'll find not a single positive contribution suggesting why or how your beloved UK can or should survive. Look at the User Profile of me or most of us the rest of us expats and you'll find positive thoughts along with the negaitves.
If I thought they needed one, I'd suspect you of being an SNP agent provocateur.
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
Complain about this comment
#128 Hesiodos
Whoever it was that said Americans don't do irony was wrong!
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
Complain about this comment
#133 O.B.F.U.
"Re a state funeral for Thatcher: I wonder if this was actually a test for 'Call Me Dave.'"
If Duff Gordon volunteered to have his own state funeral tomorrow, I and millions of others would be happy to chip in.
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
Complain about this comment
#127 Anglophone
Anglophone wishes bluelaw to dance for him?
Anglophone's #177 on 'Doing the sums':
"An independent Scotland would have to find someone or something new to hate..."
So, it's OK for Anglophone to represent others through unpleasant stereotyping...
Looking through Anglophone's history (I didn't, I just remember), he denotes Scottishness by the use of "Mc" at the beginning e.g. he said "McTibet", "McUKIP" - derisory.
Anglophone's #61 on 'Consensus is catching':
"I just get a bit weary of being willfully misinterpreted half the time on these pages."
But not OK for Anglophone to be so misrepresented...
You come on here as Scottish sovereigntists (one for you...) are an amusement to you. But when I get a little too close to the bare truth of your own thoughts on this, you nip. I don't think you even meant to nip!
Are British sovereigntists not as funny?
There is no demarcation in Westminster that recognises Scotland as a nation. Therefore we do not have a national democratic voice (the votes of a Fife constituency is hardly the same). Therefore we are entitled to be less than accepting of that.
If Britain were in a Union with larger Atlantis, for example, that had resurfaced providing a land border, where Atlantians (?) outnumbered/outvoted you British, rendering your British democratic vote obsolete, would you be contented?
Going by what you've written on here, I'd say you wouldn't be. I'm not critisising your right to your Britishness - if you want to consider yourself British (as your serious identity over English), then fine. But you are asking Scotland to compliantly put up with being politically mute for that (when Britain wouldn't).
Complain about this comment
Shouldn't that be McSovereigntists a-w? ;-)
The most telling thing about Anglophone's post is his unwillingness or inability to refute what I said about his beloved English Imperialist Thatcher.
Complain about this comment
#139 bluelaw
I like McSovereigntist!
There's a moniker I missed.... ;-)
Anglophone is a very naughty Brit.
We'll have to tell dean, we don't want a McThatcher......
Complain about this comment
Re the comments being made regarding the part played in the crisis facing us by past Thatcherite policies, it's interesting to widen the picture to take in the Reganite politics which was initiated in America at the same time. The basic concept of this ideology which Thatcher and Regan both shared was born out of the mind of one Milton Friedman, a leading economist at that time who carried considerable weight in circles who supported full blooded laisse faire capitalism, and advocated the abandonment of government involvement in economic matters.
One telling outcome of following the Friedman doctrine with the enthusiasm of Thatcher, is today's critical housing shortage, one substantially contributory factor to which has been the massive sale of council housing at incredibly knock-down prices over the past 25 years or so, a starting point for fuelling a sub-prime market, if ever there was one, by forcing many into a mortgage market situation, who might otherwise have been less pressed to take on the accompanying financial burden.
At the same time the difficulty of finding finance to cope with costs entailed in getting onto the "property ladder"in a burgeoning market has been dealt with by increasing credit through massive loans on an unprecedented scale, pushing levels of debt through the clouds.
This example in no way concludes the list of excesses pursued by the free market zeal of Thatcher, Regan et all, many other areas of the country's superstructure suffered as well, damage to the health service has cost massive sums to repair etc., but as housing is the big issue re sub-prime market madness, perhaps to make the point around the history of our housing policies in a wider sense, sheds some light on root values in the market place and how they encouraged trends which contributed to the present crisis. (In case it's assumed that all the blame for these circumstances rests on the Thatcherites, it's as well to remember that labour councils up and down the country were complicit in pursuing these policies and are equally to blame to their eternal disgrace, and continued to pursue them under Blairite New Labour).
Whatever is said in pursuit of the blame game which is now sweeping through Westminster, this is an international crisis, and cannot be put at the feet of Brown or anybody else unilaterally, (Camerons grasp of the issue is truly awsome, pity he didn't do more to warn us before hand, given his penetrating insight into the matter which is now becoming apparent). So much has been said about the culpability of the politicians that the personalities at the heart of the crisis, namely the bankers, are beginning to slide out of prominence, and to merge more with the scenery in the background, no doubt hoping that they'll be lost sight of completely.
Perhaps we should be looking for something more palpable than what's to be got from bickering about political matters related to this issue, and bringing more focus onto the alleged malpractices of our banker friends, and calling upon our politicians to launch a public enquiry into their banking policies, practices and conduct, in order to establish the degree of their responsibility for the disaster and it's consequences for mortgage holders, pension funds, pensioners savings, peoples jobs, security and the reasons why we are all in this situation now. Surely we have the right to a full explanation of what went wrong, so disasterously wrong, so many of us having had our lives ruined, our future prospects destroyed, victims of a catastrophe so vast that the least we are due is a transparently clear explanation of what went wrong, and why.
If the Royal Bank of Scotland and Sir Freddy can be taken to court by his American investors in a law suit for damages arising out of some alleged irregularities in the terms relating to how a share issue was made, then why should savers and borrowers be excluded from being able, by the full disclosure of the facts, to do the same where the possibility arises?
Complain about this comment
#141 fleetstreethound
If we are going in for the blame game, my money is on the Inland Revenue. Their refusal to carry out the revaluation for tax purposes of English property made a farce of Schedule A and lead to it being scrapped. It also made the apparent rates bill enormous leading to resentment, evasion and the Poll Tax.
Not a bad showing by a bunch of un-elected civil servants!
Complain about this comment
#142 handclapping
No doubt the unelected civil servants will have the capacity at times to punch above their weight, (never in the interest of the every day man or woman in the street, without the claw-back recovery procedure catching up at the end of the day), so a wary eye in that direction is advised no doubt!
However, the scrapping of Schedule A tax was based on it's vulnerability to tax evasion scams if I remember rightly, which were exploited to great excess by the property owning market. I am not enlightened on the details, and don't know what replaced it.
The matter of local council taxation is a vexed issue to say the least, and justifiably raises the hackles of countless numbers of people who feel the excessive weight of it's burden bearing down on their income, increasing year after year in an unrelenting procession of demand. It's most odious feature is that it isn't a progressive tax, but is loaded indiscriminately upon everybody, with no regard whatsoever for ability to pay.
The basis of the present method of setting the rate of council tax is the assessment of the market value of the property owned by the tax payer, set by the City Assessor.
In the light of what has been happening to property values over the last few insane years, the prospect of where we might have finished up in tax assessment terms if the "powers that be" had set rate values on the prevailing market prices, doesn't bear thinking of. Such market insanity has no place in logical rationale.
Change to the present system is overdue, it's time to recognise that a house is no more taxable than the clothes on ones back, or the food one eats to keep going in daily life. The basic allowances made by the Inland Revenue should apply to councils as well as National Government in the first instance, and a progressive tax, at an affordable level - affordable to the tax payer that is - should be set. The heinous practice of indiscriminate plundering of peoples incomes, and in the case of pensioners, their savings for their retirement years, has got to stop. Two brave protesters have taken the issue to the point of facing imprisonment in support of their principled stand on this matter. It's a disgraceful indictment on all of us that this grossly unfair tax system is still in force.
It's commendable that the S.N.P. in Scotland has attempted to make headway on this vexed question in Scotland, but has been forced to delay the matter until the opportunity is presented to raise it again. The stacked deck brought to bear against any headway on this matter by the majority of the collective opposition consisting of the Tories, Labour, and their erstwhile allies the LIB-Dems have made sure of it's failure on the basis of one pretext or another, and will ruthlessly continue to play their Party Games to their own ends while all that the people of Scotland wants is for the S.N.P. to be allowed to keep it's party pledge to the country and bring in the changes, unhindered, that are required.
Complain about this comment
Sinister stuff perhaps
The State's agents provocateurs busy working at the G20, happily aided & abetted by the impartial & unbiased BBC:
http://postmanpatel.blogspot.com/2009/04/smash-capitalism-cameras-ready-roll.html
Complain about this comment
Re 141 Fleetstreethound
Good post, I agree with most of what you say. The bit about Cameron is something that really annoys me, the number of politicians that are wise after the event. AS you say it is a pity they wern't a little more vocal at the time.
The blame game is tedious and will solve nothing. What we need is a realisation that this crisis will fundamentally change politics for good and we need a new vision that reflects the lessons we need to learn from what has happened.
Markets have been shown to be woeful at regulating themselves, government intervention is required to provide a strong framework for industry to work in.
It also for me demonstrates the need for a free market to be controlled in a more meaningful way, debt levels need managed and only governments will ensure this happens.
So which party is likely to be first to start to develop new thinking? Not much sign of anyone taking the initiative. In Scotland if the SNP were to grab this nettle and offer a new vision it could tip the balance in a referendum.
Complain about this comment
#145 northhighlander
I share the points you raise in your post, especially the one you make about the need for change of politics with a new vision based on lessons drawn from what has happened.
Clarity with regards to how we got into this mess will not be delivered in one day, nor will the facts be easily solicited from all the parties who had a part to play in it's cause, or what led them to choose the course which they followed, or, leaving the personalities aside,- both politicians and bankers etc.,- what part unfettered free market economics and its free for all indiscriminate exploitation played.
The bankers certainly made full unfettered use of the opportunities which the system offered to them, subsequently bringing the economy to it's knees to all our costs, and the need to know why, is the reason for my point in my earlier post about the need for a Public Enquiry. I am sure that the exposure resulting from this procedure would highlight what intervention policies on the behalf of government, and what controls we need to set in place to avoid economic disasters of this kind in future.
It also doesn't embarrass me one iota to repeat what I said in the final paragraph of my post no.141:
If the Royal Bank of Scotland and Sir Freddy can be taken to court by his American investers in a lawsuit for damages arising out of some irregularities in the terms relating to how a share issue was made, then why should savers and borrowers be excluded from being able, by the full disclosure of the facts, to do the same where the possibility arises?
Complain about this comment
I think the Sir Freddy thing should be allowed to fade. Yes the banks have treated us with contempt. I am still waiting to hear if they have to pay back millions in bank charges?
Complain about this comment
#147 rickyross3359
As the Government haven't dealt with the ludicrous interest rates that the nearly nationalised banks are charging on PFI contracts, I expect that the banks won't have to pay back their charges. There will be lots of sermonising about how people failed to keep their contracts and shouldn't have signed up to things they didn't understand and should never have got into debt in the first place just so that the banks can keep their profits and the Treasury sell them off at a good price.
Complain about this comment
View these comments in RSS