Consensus is catching
They're talking about drink at Holyrood. And here's a novelty: they're talking calmly, quietly and with an eye towards agreement.
Notably striking is the cordial atmosphere of potential consensus between the SNP and Labour, between Nicola Sturgeon and Cathy Jamieson.
Their speeches were complementary - and complimentary.
They acknowledged there were differences between them - not least over the legality and practicality of minimum pricing where Labour is sceptical.
But the emphasis was overwhelmingly on the search for compromise. Indeed, in co-ordinated fashion, Labour will back the SNP amendment in today's debate, having tabled identical wording of their own.
Said amendment talks of tackling harmful drinking in a "workable and properly targeted" fashion while ensuring that the "responsible, sensible majority of moderate drinkers are not unnecessarily penalised."
So what's going on? Other than an authentic desire to tackle a substantial problem, I believe two factors are at play.
Sundry justice
Firstly, consensus is catching. The - eventual - search for a deal over the budget set a model for further bargaining between the two big parties, reflecting the arithmetic in the chamber where the SNP are the largest party but Labour are just a "bawhair" behind, as Kenny Gibson would undoubtedly say.
Secondly, this issue is now to be tackled by a Health Bill, rather than via sundry justice provisions.
The difference? The emphasis shifts imperceptibly towards helping people with a problem rather than penalising folk who cause problems.
The Health Committee which will scrutinise the bill may be swayed by their stakeholders, such as the medical profession.
It is important to note that this is a potential bargain between the SNP and Labour, between the Scottish Government and their principal opponents.
They have not involved the other parties: the Tories who are opposed in principle to minimum pricing and the Liberal Democrats who were teased in the chamber today about their seeming variety of views on the issue.
What might emerge? Entirely understandably, far from clear at this point. The Bill will undergo full Parliamentary scrutiny - involving full public and stakeholder consultation.
But ministers are just a little more confident than they were that substantial elements of their revised programme will make it to the statute book.
I'm 
~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~50~RS~)
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Brian
Concencus is Catching - its just a pity that the Labour party failed to grasp this when they became the opposition party following the election of a minority government
Politicans should remember that they are there to serve the voters - first and foremost - the party should be second - not the other way about
Let us hope that this Concensus continues for the remainder of this Parliament, that way the People of scotland will be the Winners!
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here's an outrageous idea brian !
it is illegal to sell alcohol to people under the age of 18.
it is illegal to obtain alcohol for people under the age of 18
it is illegal to serve someone who is obviously already drunk.
how many people are charged with any of the above offences?
how many shops have their licences revoked permanently?
what is the point of passing even more laws when we don't even use the ones already there!!
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It's good to know that Holyrood seems to be working today by consensus.
That's one for the Guinness Book of Records !
Ooooops ! Sorry Brian ! I shouldn't be using such a word on this sober Thursday.
With such a positive air in the Chamber, it is much more probable that something tangible will emerge for the overall good of our nation.
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Did hell freeze over?
Did civilisation come crashing down around our ears?
Will the Scottish media report this in a reasonable and balanced fashion?
The answer to all those questions is, almost certainly, 'no'.
Global warming has probably seen to the first, the credit crunch has already ensured the second and as for the media, well, no more needs be said.
Anyway, it's nice to see that common sense can sometimes overcome party political oneupmanship in the spirit of comming to consensus view. Even if I don't actually support a lot of the Scottish Government's policies in respect of dealing with alcohol, it is refreshing to see the parties working together for once rather than just opposing each other simply because they can.
Still suspect the media will find away of making this into a Labour victory in the face of an embaressing SNP climb down.
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Steady on Brian, you mean to say this isn't a "humiliating U-turn by the government" and they haven't "caved in to opposition demands"? Oh dear, through passing up this obvious nat-bashing opportunity I fear you'll be summoned back to the Scottish journalism gulag for re-education.
More seriously, well done all concerned for this outbreak of common sense. Better late than never. Let's just hope it doesn't lead to design by committee...
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Concensus, it's a word that smells and I'm talking about the land fill variety. It never fails to amaze me the type of alliances that are formed by supposdly opposing groups!
The electorate are continualy duped by politicians promising one thing and doing another! No wonder the drinks lobby are rubbing their hands, money well spent in their minds, not that I'm suggesting that any money has changed hands so to speak!
Joe public getting fooled again!
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Apologies for going off topic but was anyone aware that a Labour councillor in Stirling had been banned from office for 18 months by the Standards Commission on 5 March for breaching the Councillors Code of Conduct?
According to the BBC website a by-election to replace disqualified Stirling councillor Gerard O'Brien will take place next month.
If this were an SNP councillor I'm pretty sure our intrepid Scottish media would have felt a duty to inform the nation.
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Labour's spin machine will go into overdrive with this one ... I mean, its not as if they are self-aware enough to have done something for the good of the country!
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On the subject of consensus, the fact that Brown and his sidekick Murphy are currently out of the country might be a clue here.
Brown is currently receiving hammer blows from the English media, Mervyn King informing everyone that the UK is broke.
King then being 'invited' to see the Queen (first time in 50 years the head of the BOE has been summoned).
The G20 is basically falling apart as far as Brown is concerned with President Obama cutting back on the visits that would have provided photo ops and the Czech president savaging the USA's approach to helping the economy.
The Tory MEP mauling Brown in Brussels in full view of the media is also receiving more hits than Brown himself. (has it made it into a Scottish online paper yet?)
We also have a Labour minister being investigated over expenses. US politician Jessie Jackson has expressed his support for devolved governments in the UK being protected from cuts.
Oh, and the Labour councillor who was suspended from Stirling council on March 5th.
In short, Labour are defenceless at the moment and this break out of consensus will allow the media up here to concentrate on that rather than the other mayhem.
Everyone should read Robbie Dinwoodies blog on Murphy's insistance that he knew nothing of Salmond's visit to the US?
It destroys Murphy's credibility and integrity ..... no question.
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Consensus. Good. The matter is too important for party politics.
Failure to adequately regulate the financial sector has cost us dear, let's not repeat this with the alcohol industry and pay the price in health and social terms.
A start could be made with min unit pricing and other measures directed at the Jumbo bottles of cider for £2+ and the like.
Moderate consumers will not be penalised by measures targeting that part of the market.
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/tayside_and_central/7965586.stm
Can't seem to find any comment on this blog on what this man has done to force him from office for 15 months?
Just what is alleged to have happened?
I had thought you couldn't remove elected representatives...but maybe the committee has found the gap to depose most of the Westminster Cabinet?
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Can't councillors get suspended/disqualified for not attending enough meetings? Maybe he just didn't do anything interesting enough to make the news.
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#9 greenockboy: Thanks for highlighting Dinwoodie's blog over at the Herald. I found the following line particularly interesting:
Mr Murphy's people call journalists up at all times to complain about nuances in their copy. The Scotland Office read everything all of us write every day.
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#9 greenockboy
Thanks for the link confirming that Murphy was the johnny-come-lately on the China thing.
The link is here.
deanthetory - will you now accept that your accusation against the FM on a previous thread was wrong?
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Leave mah Booze alone.
First mah Ciggies... then mah Pies and Noo mah Booze.
... only a matter of time before they ban me from breathing out CO2 as it may be damaging the flaming environment.
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The story from 6th March, Councillor removed from office, suggests that the departing Stirling councillor in question was a 'bully.'
Certainly, the picture painted is of a distasteful individual.
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Re7:
my apologies too for also going off comment but as the BBC have yet to mention it, and Brian also seems to be overlooking this, the Labour run Dundee City Council is now in it's death throes. The local paper have been covering this story in some depth but not a word from the BBC, why not?
http://www.eveningtelegraph.co.uk/output/2009/03/24/index.shtm
The SNP have had more elected members on the council than any other group since 2002, yet even now the knifes are out for anyone to dares to suggest that the electorate should be properly represented by the people they have voted for.
John Letford has served Dundee City very well for many years, but do his "former" collegues recognise any of this? Jim McGovern had better watch out come polling day as he may well discover that the people of Lochee have had enough of the so called "efforts" of the labour councillors & MPs of the past and are looking forward to see what change can bring to Lochee.
It's long overdue and needed more now than ever!
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The joy of minority government, over a coalition, is that the SNP Government doesn't have to placate a particular political ideology and can instead seek to form alliances on an issue-by-issue basis.
In the past administrations, the only direction in which Labour policy would move was towards that of the LibDems.
--
It may have taken two years, but I hope that we have FINALLY reached the point where politicians of all colours start to put their constituents' interests first.
Then again, it may not be unrelated to the imminent onset of campaigning for the European Parliamentary elections.
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The topic is alcohol.Who cares about some Stirling councillor or any of the other ANORAK stuff.
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How did you get that rare Scottish expression "bawhair " past the moderators Brian ? Maybe they're all from south of the border and didn't have an interpreter handy. Is it any surprise that Labour has reached consensus over alchohol with the SNP, it would not have looked good if they'd condoned the misuse of alchohol, so really, they have no choice. No international on telly again this weekend, but I can't for the life of me understand why BBC Scotland think it's value for money paying the opposition for highlights ; it's like paying a burgler to give the stuff he nicked from you back.
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Brian,
"bawhair"? Is that allowed on a blog? I might have said "ba' hair" myself. Maybe the bbc would prefer scrotal follicle?
On another note, I wouldn't have voted for O'Brien in Bannockburn but he wasn't a bad guy. He represented his constituents "forthrightly" but at the end, I don't think he was a well man. Labour are relieved he's gone, the SNP would have preferred him to stay because he couldn't be relied on by Labour. His wife may well stand in the bye-election for Labour and would probably win it, locals really liked him.
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#18 Also about Dundee what is the story behind the Provost getting offered an OBE if he would stand down,no mention of this on BBC,wonder if it will get a mention on Newsnight doubt it.
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And why is the strap line on the BBC Scottish politics site headed "SNP to work with Labour on drink." - with the first sentence of its article being - "There are signs the Scottish Government is ready to work with Labour to tackle Scotland's problems with alcohol abuse. "
Surely the proposals and policy , and manifesto commitment and initiative is with the SNP government and thus the 'working with' has to come from the 'opposition'?
The reversal of the active and positive position of the government to emphasise a supposed preeminince of the Scottish Labour party is such a grotesque twisting of the apparent posture of the political parties that surely some 'truth and reconciliation' commission should hold an enquiry?
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Health is one issue where consensus should be relatively easy to obtain, the SNP and Labour are not a million miles apart on this.
Some good work going on in this area, yesterdays announcement on drugs and paying for top up treatment is an excellent example of sensible measured politics.
Is there a chance of redemption for politicians? Could we see a sednsible FMQ's as opposed to the normal playground politics?
I await with interest but not very high expectations.
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Discussed the subject of drink pricing at work today with a couple of colleagues, both who either know Scandanavia very well or have friends living there.
Alcohol is notoriously high, which means less people going out, and obviously less problems for the police etc.
However, when they DO go out they tend to get really hammered.
And home brew appears to be exceptionally popular over there.
Drink pricing will most likely cause a few casualties in the pub trade.
Whether it reduces drink consumption is another matter.
I'm practically teetotal by the way, so I do not have any personal axes to grind.
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Apologies for the double post here, but the situation in Dundee has been mirrored in Essex.
People tend to forget that a councillor is elected normally on the basis of the political party - or independent - that he or she represents.
For them to change to another political party, or go independent, should require that a by-election takes place to confirm the move. This should also apply to Holyrood and Westminster.
With regards to Dundee, I would expect this to be a bonus for the SNP, but Essex may be a different matter.
Elected politicians should not be able to chop and change parties, especially when it can cause, as in Dundee, a loss of control that was previously voted for.
It may well be that the move will be supported in the by-election. But let the voters decide.
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Don't think for one moment that the Scottish Labour party (excuse the laughing) are deciding to become more of a consensus party, I haven't seen any pigs flying lately, and Brian knows this. He is just following the party whip. If Brian was, in any way, an unbiased political journalist (which is what we the licence payers are paying him to be) then he would have pointed out that the labour party in England are on the back foot on the alcohol issue. The labour party in England have been ripped to pieces on their stance, on this issue, by the press and certain members of the medical profession. The Scottish labour party have been told to swing in behind what the labour party in England are now doing. You know this Brian, yet you are still backing this farcical notion that there is now a 'cordial atmosphere' between the two parties. You should be ashamed to take the wages that we pay you. If Scotland gets it independence then there will be no more BBC in Scotland and I suspect that there may be casualties. Those who have been loyal to their profession may well survive. Do you really think that you can say this about your own reporting? Maybe you have already planned ahead or maybe you are just waiting to see how far the Labour party are going to sink before you decide to abandon the sinking ship of SS Labour. You know that Labour are going to lose the UK general election but you may be hoping that the UK won't lose Scotland. People won't forget your biased reporting on this blog.
Having read the Herald article on Jim Murphy an unbiased political reporter would have been tearing into the statement made by Jim Murphy that he didn't know about FM's visit. Not a peep from you. It is sad that such an intelligent man as yourself (and an Arab to boot) should morph into a Labour party lapdog while pretending to be unbiased. Don't you think we know?
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From the BBC website regarding the Stirling councillor.
'The Nationalists seized control of the local authority in March last year following a vote of no confidence in the ruling Labour group.'
Says it all really.
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#7 greenockboy
Thanks for the heads-up on this by-election, which is sure to break any SNP/Lab consensus - perhaps only temporarily.
This website's Vote set for 'disqualified' seat tells us it's set for 30 April, but unfortunately gives no information about Bannockburn ward in 2007, where 3 councillors were elected by STV - the SNP's MACPHERSON and Lab's BRISLEY at Stage 1 and Lab's O'BRIEN [the one now disqualified] at Stage 3.
With Lab taking 52% of first preferences last time compared to the SNP's 33%, it certainly looks like a harder struggle than the SNP faced in Dundee recently, but victory doesn't look out of the question.
Detailed results were:
- Party, Vote%, Candidate
- SNP, 33.15%, MACPHERSON
- Lab, 31.05%, BRISLEY
- Lab, 19.93%, O'BRIEN
- Con, 7.29%, MCCULLOCH
- Ind, 4.87%, EVANS
- LibDem, 3.70%, SMITH
Enough for tonight, but I'll get comparisons and swings from Dundee and post some analysis soon.Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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14. oldnat
I believe so oldnat.
It does rather seem that way.
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pro-loco @ number 23:
Subtle manipulaiton of the type you highlight is all too prevalent within Scottish media outlets.
We all remember the word 'sacked' being used when Salmond recently freshened up the cabinet. Within a week Labour in wales had freshened up their own cabinet, the word used was 'reshuffle'.
In days gone by such tactics would have gone unnoticed and uncommented on. Now however, we are a little more sophistacated and a lot more adept at highlighting such manipulation.
I've mentioned this before, but when Labour backtracked on the borrowing powers for Holyrood it was not headlined as a 'U; turn by any media outlets in Scotland.
Indeed, The Scotsman's headline that morning read 'Party (sic) in policy shift'.
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First Minister Jack McConnell flew into Campbeltown today by helicopter accompanied by his Enterprise minister for the announcemtn of the biggest investment in the Scottish Highlands since Invergordon, This news has dominated the airwaves all day and praise has been heaped on the team who engineered this coup. This magnificent project which will make unemployment a thing of the past in all of Kintyre is a huge creidit to the Scottish Labour administration.
That is how todays momentous result for Kintyre would have been blazoned across our media had Labour achieved it , but of course, it was the SNP government that pulled it off. It got no mention of the late night BBC Scottish news, BBC Ceefax make no mention of Alex Salmond and Jim Mather arriving in fishery protection helicopter to Cambeltown and get no mention in the story despite Jim Mather being the man who engineered the coup with a Danish Company who are world leaders in this field and the story actually mentions a "government " grant without making it clear it was a huge "Scottish Government" grant that clinched it
I was in Campbeltown today. Where was the Scottish press? Where was the BBC?
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#25 Neil_Small147
There is something in what you say, anecdotal though it is, but it is also true to say that there is a strong inverse correlation between the price of alcohol (relative to disposable income) and consumption.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markeaston/2008/11/map_of_the_week.html
Of course, the sort of interventions that are possible by government can only go so far. We need a fundamental change in social attitudes too. It can be done- just look at the change in attitude to smoking over the last couple of decades.
Likewise, I am practically teetotal and axe-free too.
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I have a theory that as this blog is populated by mostly pro independence posters that the beeb has decided to drive us off by taking hours to moderate the blog.
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northhighlander
I've replied on the "Sums" thread to your comments there. There's a bit that you might find interesting (and it's not a Nat point!)
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#29 Brownedov
"With Lab taking 52% of first preferences last time compared to the SNP's 33%, it certainly looks like a harder struggle than the SNP faced in Dundee recently"
Your analysis is spot on. The parties spin it, and our media are so poor that they fall for it.
There is a huge difference between the results of the STV system when multiple members are being elected, and when a single councillor is being selected.
It is of no importance which party the ex-councillor came from. When voters elect a replacement they do not split their votes between 2 or more councillors of the same party - hence party loyalty is more important, since far fewer bother to vote in a by-election.
The big mistake that Labour made in many areas in 2007, was to arrogantly think that they could get all 3 councillors in a 3 seat ward, put up 3 candidates, and split their own vote.
They will not be so stupid next time round. But it's a delicate balance for every party that thinks it can get more than one seat - put up more candidates than there are votes for you, and none might be elected. Put up too few, and you are handing seats to your opponents.
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28. ubinworryinmasheep
Come Sat. I shall be out campaigning with local tory councellors on this election, but its surely a SNP game to take? We tories can only play for solid third in places like bannockburn.
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#30 deanthetory
Thank you. There are honest and reasonable people in every party (although fewer in any party which has a monopoly of power!)
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#37 deanthetory
Re Saturday - I trust that you will have found a pub with TV coverage of the fitba' by 7:45. Join with us all in groaning over our failure to beat the Netherlands!
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Been watching question time: Erec Pickles was treated rather harshly! Of course the Opposition no. 2 man can't work every day on only 4 hours! 37 miles commute, starting 5:30 am and in heading home on the 37 miles trek at 1-2 am the next morning- what the @UCK is unreasonable about that????
I personally want my MPs to have plenty sleep if they get to be in the national legislature.
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The football? Gad, that'l be a torture!
* I'll come clean, I'm more of a ruggers and cricket fan ;(
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#37 Dean..What an exciting life you must lead. Yes id say you dont have much chance in places like Bannockburn. The problem with the Tory party, is that for many of us Scots, the Torys are considered as upperclass types. Anyone who has read the Daily Mail and its conservative middle class nonsense will know the type of people its aimed at. For most of us thats to much for us to take.
#40 and #41 Have you been on the Sherry again ? Oh and #41 just reinforces my thoughts in #37. Steriotypical. Do you also have a posh well spoken accent ?
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#21 irnbru_addict
Thanks for providing a local perspective to the forthcoming Bannockburn by-election. I certainly hear what you say re locals really liking O'Brien, and if - as you suggest - his wife stands for Labour, that could be a big factor.
OTOH, as my #29 records, with only 20% of first preferences he was well behind Brisley's 31% and so, prima facie, not more than 40% of Labour's support last time was "personal" for O'Brien.
Perhaps deanthetory will give us some input after his Saturday canvassing on the streets of Bannockburn.
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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#36 oldnat
Thanks for that, but I don't fully agree with you on multiple candidates from the same party, since that's one of the key benefits of the STV system, in giving the electorate the ability to fine tune between candidates from broadly the same political perspective. Perhaps the 2007 experience was more a question of the parties' inexperience in using the system to their advantage.
IMO, any major party should put up at least as many candidates as there are vacancies available to allow the voters to choose the ones they feel will best represent them, and should make sure their campaign literature features them all with an exhortion to "vote 1-2-3 for the XXX party candidates". Done effectively, it wouldn't "split their own vote" although it might mean their candidates get elected at later stages than otherwise would be the case.
I do fully accept that the dynamics where only one vacancy is to be filled are rather different.
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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37 DeantheTory
You're right...the Conservatives are unlikely to be forming an administration at Holyrood any time soon and would probably become a permenant fringe party of opposition following independence. But fear not because Nationalist posters have already found an elegant solution to this problem.
1. You must complain that you are numerically swamped within the present arrangements and that your voice is never heard.
2. You must create a mythology of suffering and oppresion at the hands of Labour and the SNP. Relentless accusations of arrogant elitism should help here.
3. You should angrily demand secession for the leafier suburbs of Glasgow and Edinburgh whilst also demanding that the rest of Scotland pays the costs of separation.
4. Having dispensed with one Union you should, without betraying any sense of the internal contradictions involved, form an orderly queue outside the offices of the European Union and demand to join on favourable terms.
It's simple...Rise Up and Be a Suburb Again! It'll be alricht on the nicht, dinnae fash with the smallprint, you have nothing to lose but your chains.
Have a nice weekend. Good luck in the election!
Yours...joining the Brigadier in bemused retirement etc etc.;-)
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25 Neil Small 147
Neil...I can confirm that. My experience in Norway was of frantic home distillers who would hold gruesome "cocktail" parties of potato based spirit before staggering out to nurse a half of lager down at the local club.
The pricing effect can only go so far before human ingenuity steps in. I do nonetheless support the various moves to get some of the really insanely cheap booze out of the market.
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42 Ubinworryinmysheep
Sorry to come out of retirement quite so quickly but I couldn't go without wondering amusedly at the Daily Mail as the paper of the Upper Classes???
Perhaps Labours attempts to reinvigorate social mobility in Britain are working better than even they dared to dream;-)
Are you by any chance related to the Kincardinshire Getorrfmylands?
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PS to my #29
I have now done some preliminary analysis on the Dundee Maryfield position in 2009 vs 2007 and projected Stirling Bannockburn on that basis, but before sharing it with you I must point out that it must be heavily caveated by the personal factors considered in my #43 and the different "control" situations of the two councils. Dundee was under Lab / Lib / Con control with no local track record of an SNP council, whilst Stirling has been under SNP minority control (with limited Con support) for the past year, and it would be crazy not to expect this to make a difference.
That said, here goes with the extrapolation.....
The changes in first preferences from 2007 to 2009 in Dundee Maryfield were:
- Party, 2007, 2009, +/-%
- SNP, 25.28%, 47.60%, 88.28%
- Lab, 49.72%, 31.11%, -37.42%
- LibDem, 13.06%, 10.87%, -16.74%
- Con, 8.31%, 6.88%, -17.24%
- Other, 3.63%, 3.53%, -2.68%
If those percentage changes are applied to Stirling Bannockburn and normalised to add up to 100% we get first preferences something like:I certainly wouldn't bet my shirt on an SNP victory - in any event, a lot can change in a month as we've come to realise lately - but it does seem that if they can do as well on the streets of Bannockburn as they did in Maryfield, the SNP should be cautiously optimistic if they have a good candidate.
Busy now, but back later, I hope.
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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#40 deanthetory
"I personally want my MPs to have plenty sleep if they get to be in the national legislature."
Sorry to nit pick, but Holyrood is the national legislature. Westmidden is the state legislature. But I would agree that both MSPs and MPs need their sleep. I've also watched QT this morning and thought the best suggestion on that topic was the "state dormitories" idea. They should be available on demand to all including those local to their respective parliament.
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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#45 Anglophone
Amusing post, but your "you have nothing to lose but your chains" might have been transmogrified into: You have nothing to lose but your chins!
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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#44 Brownedov
"IMO, any major party should put up at least as many candidates as there are vacancies available to allow the voters to choose the ones they feel will best represent them"
But that would mean political parties acting in our interests - not theirs. Hardly likely from any of them!
I much prefer STV, as it puts the voters in control. Especially where the whole council is being elected, the evidence (as in your Bannockburn figures) shows that voters do use the system to vote for individuals not solely parties, and "split the ticket".
As parties come to grips with the system, however, they will in practice have to do the calculations that I outlined.
In one sense, it's more honest. Parties then are effectively saying to the electorate - "We know that a range of political opinion is welcome on the Council (they could then lie through their teeth and add) and we welcome that".
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#26 Neil_Small147:
Elected politicians should not be able to chop and change parties, especially when it can cause, as in Dundee, a loss of control that was previously voted for.
Erm, are you sure about that Neil? Before Letford's conscience caught up with him the numbers in Dundee were as follows:
SNP 14 seats
Labour 9
Conservative 3
Liberal Democrat 2
Independent 1
Do you really think the people gave a resounding vote for Lab-Lib-Tory-Independent control? That's some impressive (and unholy!) collective tactical voting!
Also, your main point rather hinges on your use of the word "normally"- can you quantify the proportion of people who vote for their councillor on the basis of party as opposed to personality?
This isn't meant as nitpicking by the way. Our whole electoral system is a slightly mushy mix of choosing an individual to represent our views whilst simultaneously choosing a party to (not) govern. I'd be interested to know if anyone has studied the proportions of voters who fall into one or other camp...anyone able to help?
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#32 sneckedagain
While it's true what you say, there might be an upside.
When during campaigning for independence, all these SNP plus points are clearly set out for all the electorate to see, it will have more impact, as the public haven't really heard it before (!), and it will highlight the gulf between what's really been happening and what Labour and the complicit media have tried to promote as what's been happening. SNP look good, Labour, well, don't!
Anglophone,
I have replied to you (less crusadingly ;-) on the 'Sums' thread. JFYI.
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#45 Anglophone
You are so behind the times!
"You should angrily demand secession for the leafier suburbs of Glasgow"
Why on earth do you think the Tories created the boundaries of the then Eastwood, in the way that they did?
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#46 Anglophone
Good heavens - we're 100% in agreement for once. My younger son spends much of his time in Norway and reports similar occurrences whilst my own experience in GCC countries I cannot name for fear of condoning illegal activity had parallels to it.
I know you're not a fan of the Swiss, but they reduced alcohol and tobacco taxation some years ago to swap the direction of unofficial cross-border movement, although their health freaks have started to reverse the trend.
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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#45 Anglophone (to deanthetory, I see...)
"ours...joining the Brigadier in bemused retirement etc etc.;-)"
Thanks Anglophone,
Nice of you to say good bye.
(Your problem is the mod queues on here by the way - screws up any semblance of good communication...)
So good bye to you too then.
Seems I must have been right with the end of my #176 on 'Sums'.
It's pretty disappointing, and a shame, given you're certainly no fool, but then that's just Britain for you. If we'd had independence years ago, we'd have probably got on! (You may laugh at the extents a nat will go to promote independence, but there you go, we are all just an amusement for you. My own fault though you might hint? Who knows...
Who cares.)
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50 Brownedov
Nice one:-)
I did toy with "you have nothing to lose but your chains (of office)" but yours in much better
A
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For a while whilst bungler was recieving a hand up from the british media and delcaring himself a world saviour, I felt slightly down in the dumps.
But, the good old days are back with vengence, bungler is fouling up big time, on every stage. When ever you see that Daffy duck cheesey grin descending the steps down to the tarmac, you know we are in for some fun.
He looks and sounds completely foolish, like a laterday snake oil seller.
Wonder who will want to have their photae taken with him next week?
TDBs
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re my #56
PS Just in case you're lurking before you properly "retire"...
...you are too touchy about any perceived slants on your Britishness....and I don't like to perceive that Scotland's position is being ignored.
The first makes yourself seem criticised. The second makes me seem ignored (god forbid!).
What a stupid, pathetic cause for an end to communication......
(So long....)
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#51 oldnat
"But that would mean political parties acting in our interests - not theirs. Hardly likely from any of them!"
Point well and truly taken!
"the evidence ... shows that voters do use the system to vote for individuals not solely parties, and "split the ticket"."
Well yes, but it's a bit chicken and egg. If parties don't "embrace" the system and fully understand the nuances of it, they're hardly likely to give "their" voters good advice on how to use it.
It's certainly true that when Brisley's surplus of 268 votes was removed at Stage 3 of the Bannockburn count, O'Brien received only 167 of them, with the Independent getting 15, the LibDem 13, the Tory 6 and 66 being non-transferable [perhaps only having a 2nd preference for the SNP candidate]. You can find the detailed PDF for the Bannockburn ward in the Local Government Elections Elected Members of Stirling Council's Local and Scottish Elections 2007.
Had the SNP put up two candidates for the ward, it's probable that neither would have been elected at the first stage, with the minor party preferences being allocated before coming down to the final three, with SNP candidate and the second Lab candidate eventually being elected. If that had been the case, it would clearly have been more cost-effective for the SNP to have run only one candidate. OTOH, it's also possible that the end result would have been SNP 2, Lab 1 making the investment worthwhile.
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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59 Aye-Write
No offence taken...I just get a bit weary of being willfully misinterpreted half the time on these pages.
This blogging malarkey is highly addictive, possessed of the peculiar desire to get one over on a complete stranger. In the long run it's not healthy and an extended period of cold turkey is called for unless I want to endure Mrs Anglophone pointedly asking me "what exactly have you been doing all day".
Suddenly I'm faced with the ugly self-realisation that I'm spending an inordinate amount of time poking fun at a huffily verbose demi-Frenchman and others...and the question has to be asked "is this what life is all about?"
I'm dropping matters Scottish until I come to the Festival in August then lose myself in the mountain fastness of Assynt for a few days. In the meantime, as I hope and pray I soon hear Gordon Brown say..."I want to spend more time with my family" :-)
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#48 Brownedov
Your calculations and conclusions are wrong. Majority support is for the 'don't give a stuff' and who will not be participating.
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#61 Anglophone
Now, 'tis funny, I been thinking exactly the same. My life could do with a defrag, to make it more efficient (those cupboards have steadily become less and less tidy etc. - horror), and seeing as it's spring and all...
A note on your being willfully misinterpreted, although you undoubtedly do have a point, don't as much as tell Scots they are hate-filled emotional Scotocripples! Scoldy-scold.
Your paras 2 and 3 are quite quite correct. (Nice to know ;-)
Obsessive apparently I am - I think it comes with the brain ;-)
Anyway, you must keep Mrs Anglophone happy, that's why you're here!
I hope you enjoy your trip up in August. If it interests you I'm sure oldnat and maybe others would want to meet up for a beer, so you must let us know. (google quirkynats)
Have a nice spring and summer.
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42. , ubinworryinmasheep
Grow up, and please do so quickly- what has my personal love of rugby and cricket got in any way to do with my personal politics?
Clearly you do not often use these blogs otherwise you'd have known that although now in Stirling, I've always been a Glasgow boy. Born and Bred.
Grow up you pathetic little man, dont ever accuse me of being a daily mail conservative ever again! (its rather insulting actually, not all tories are raving thatcherites you know).
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#52, forfar-loon
Another example of "The only thing we have in common is hatred of the SNP" is even closer to the home of the bridie.
After a lengthy period of SNP administration, to the benefit of Forfarians, Kirriemarians, Montrosians and the rest, the 2007 election - which 'proved' that PR is unsuited to local government, however meritworthy at higher levels of government - saw Angus Council's SNP rule ended supplanted by the so-called 'Angus Alliance.'
(Like nations with names involving "Democratic," "Popular," or "People's," a political "Alliance" is rarely anything of the sort.)
Angus Council composition:
SNP, 13 members
Conservatives, 5
Liberal Democrats, 3
Labour, 2
Independent, 6 (5 in the AA, 1 outside)
So, like Dundee, Angus has had a council whose whole ethos is to deny the people that which their constituents most wanted - SNP rule.
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#65 Carol Singer:
Aye, it's a sair fecht. With any luck the AA will be shown the door next time round, each and every one of them. Their embarrassing decision to replace the Saltire will surely come back to haunt them. Eejits.
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#62 rochcarlie
A fair point well made.
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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@ 53 AW
"and it will highlight the gulf between what's really been happening and what Labour and the complicit media have tried to promote"
Absolutely true.
But what I will add, is if the Tories win by landslide proportions in 2010, and the SNP somehow get the referendum - then Labour will be in such an internal state that the only credible adovcate for the Union case wouild fall to my lot (and in Scotland a Tory lead on the union might in some social cleavages acutally harm the case for unionism).
The SNP, even if they do fail to get the referendum can still make it central to the 2011 Hollyrood GE- and the same SNP vs. Torysituation would apply again in terms of constitutional affairs. Labour could potentially be squeezed out of the coming political debates if 2010 proves a disasterpous exercise in democracy for them, and htis will chage the dynamics of the consitututional debate I'd think.
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What is wrong with a country where "reform" means allowing women equal-right to rule over us as our sovereign (by birth alone)?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7967142.stm
If you have a monarchy, you go along with the rules - you cannot skip a generation, you cannot change primogeniture and play with other traditions.
You either "do it properly", or you get rid of the whole free-loading troup!
Was this the radicalism that Gordon Brown put forward while at Edinburgh University (while dating a deposed Royal)?
This whole thing has to be some sort of sick joke.
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#68 deanthetory -
"The SNP somehow get the referendum."
Your Unionist bias is showing again. The SNP won't 'get' a referendum - the people of Scotland will.
The SNP's role will be to build a consensus in the Scottish Parliament in support of a bill which will provide the Scottish People with 'their' voice (Not the SNP's) on further devolution.
And giving the people a voice on this issue is a good thing, surely?
Also, just as a passing comment, you seem to have quite a thing for 'social cleavage' this afternoon - that's two consecutive posts (One here, one on NR) ythat ou've been showing it off in.
Not a leg man then, I take it . . .
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#68 deanthetory
Very interesting dean. I honestly don't know how it will go (but will happily listen to other's predictions ;-)
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Off topic (can I do a Neil!), my sister just informed me about this....???
http://www.earthhour.org/home/
I use so much energy I could save a fortune..... ;-)
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#68. deanthetory
PS dean, I've just got your point - I'd certainly like to force Labour out as much as possible - they are the problem in Scotland at the moment, not Auntie A. I like her policies on drugs for example. We need good sense and where the tories can provide it of course I'd be in favour.
In that way a tory-whoever cooperating situation in government (Holyrood obviously) would be a plus, as the tories' sensible ideas deserving of support could be introduced as, like you say, they are not likely to be in first place for the moment anyway. How interesting to see their current fortunes change in independent Scotland though, as you know they might ;-)
What do you think re Tory support in Scotland (apart from you taking over from Auntie!)?
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70. Bandages_For_Konjic
Your reading into me too much, no bias intended, as for social cleavages, just think that on NR blog some there could do with some constructive comments concerning the political fallout from Hannon, i.e. our ability as a Party to relate beyond our core voters (i.e. social cleavages based in suburban middle class, protestant etc).
No over sexual references intended ;)
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#70 Bandages_For_Konjic
"Your Unionist bias is showing again. The SNP won't 'get' a referendum - the people of Scotland will."
Did he not just mean the SNP as the party asking for it will get it? I wouldn't want unionists to think we were petty ;-)
Although I agree with you, the referendum is for the people, not the SNP.
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73. , aye_write
Ironically we'd do better in Scotland if we as a party were freed from our obligations to our English 'other half'. The biggest problem for us has always been, that were seen up here as the 'English party' rather than Scottish. Naturally if we'd bee alieviated of a number of obligations, and image problems if we existed inside an independent Scotland.
As for the next 1--20 years, if independence didn't happen? Erm, I'd say we'd recover in the N.E of Scotland again - Perth and Angus / West Aberdeenshire & Kincardine and Gordon. Probably stage a recovery in the borders and Edinburgh.
A possible recovery to 23-27% Scottish share of the vote again. But our future up here rests in 'moderate Torism' and not 'hatcherite liberalism'*- a future that diverges away from the English party branch of the nationwide Conservative network.
*p.s. thats a feudian slip? Decided to leave the typo as is then. ;)
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@23 pro-loco, good point.
I listened to the BBC Radio Labour News yesterday and was not in the least surprised (though infuriated) to hear the newsreader imply that on this matter the SNP had been reluctantly persuaded to co-operate with the evidently more sensible and concilliatory and as you say agenda setting Labour Party.
As Greenockboy points out such distortions happen all the time but should be highlighted just the same.
I was amused later on that day to see Channel 4 news pick up the Labour ball and keep running with it .
They had ignored the Hannan demolition of Gordon Brown until last night when they attempted to downplay and discredit his uncomfortably popular European Parliament outburst.
They even had Sunder Katwala and Derek Draper on to dismiss it and the interview ended with Dolly Draper live in the studio shouting that Hannan's words were the demented ravings of a demented party.
Aye right Derek, and you're a respected psychotherapist who went to Berkeley.
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http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/G20/article5987604.ece
Chilean President: "Chile saved money in good times, and can now spend it in the bad." Brown shown up (again) in Latin America.
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/4/20090327/twl-brown-in-chile-after-cold-reception-41f21e0.html
Brazilian President (Lula):
"This is a crisis that was caused by people, white with blue eyes. And before the crisis they looked as if they knew everything about economics.
Once again the great part of the poor in the world that were still not yet (getting) their share of development that was caused by globalisation, they were the first ones to suffer."
You can just see "No More Broon and Bust" squirming all the way through Lula's little speech.
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#76, Tories at 23-27%, certainly not until after independence and the death of Labour.
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#64 dear dear .... Dean, although a quick cursory glance at my posts will show me as not contributing much, that does not allow for the fact i may read these blogs frequently. Also whats to say i dont have an another login name, as i suspect do some of the other posters. As it happens politics is something a care about as it will affect my childrens future and The Numpties (Labour and Conservative partys) have been running the show for far to long. Ok i maybe havent read much of your posts but then i have a life off of the pc. As for 'pathetic little man ' moi ! lol. As we say up here in Aberdeen 'Dean yer an afa loon' .Me me, young people who think they have lived at 18...its a sair fect.
:o)}
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#76 Dean your party would do better up here if they embraced independence and had nothing to do with the south. Ill bet there are MP'S/MSP's in various partys who want that but for the sake of a well paid job keep things to themselves.
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@ 79 patymkirkwood
I wouldn'y be too sure, we're aleady on 20% (and holding for the last wo Scottish intention polls), its not inconcievable to increase to 23% at least by May 2010.
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80. ubinworryinmasheep
"Do you also have a posh well spoken accent ?"
One fails to see how on earth you can defend such remarks, but then, its more convienent to characterise all Conservatives as Boris Johnsons.
"I personally want my MPs to have plenty sleep if they get to be in the national legislature", what is it about that remark by oneself that makes you believe that it is steriotypical of a mail reader or "upper class steriotype"? Its entirely reasonable and mature to hold such views. But again, you'd rather attempt to characterise a Conservative rather than engage in grown up discussion about policy and current affairs. Thats your perogative, but just don't expect one to ignore such nonsense from yourself to go without comment.
And finally, there is absoutely nothing steriotypically upper class about liking rugby over football- again your rather childish attempt to cast me as both a reactionary daily mail reading upper class steriotype of a tory is reflected by a clear lack of any evidence except that is, your own bias.
I accept that at 19 one has not lived, experienced as much as yourself, but please do not think to enage in playground politics, with your mud slinging on these here blogs. Will you apologise for slandering one for merely liking our MPs to have slept well and because one happens to dislike football?
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"Consensus is catching" - but there's not much evidence of it infecting this blog!
However, you can't have a good argument with people whose value systems you fundamentally disagree with.
With everyone here, I understand (mostly) where you are coming from (or at least I know people who say the kind of things you do).
When I venture on the European political blogs, I see lots of posts which come from a standpoint I don't necessarily understand, but posters from different countries often take care to explain quite carefully.
Where I am at a total loss is when I read the stuff from many of the Southern English (I've found the same on visits to that lovely part of the world as well). A good example is the ferment surrounding Dangling Hanging (MEP)'s speech to the EU Parliament.
Others like dean have followed the same route - coming back equally bemused. I'm sure if I'd been brought up and educated there I'd understand the societal norms that obviously underlie their thinking, but I don't.
Now that in itself is not a problem. Different cultures should be different, and a little bit incomprehensible - but these people elect more than half of Westminster MPs!
It's difficult to believe that I spent 86% of my life with these folk deciding how Scotland's domestic affairs should be run.
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#82, a real vote will be rather different, especially when there are very few places in Scotland where the Tories are actually challenging for seats.
"Minor parties" get squeezed out in such situations, and while the Tories will likely be the biggest party in the UK, in Scotland they will - at best - be competing with the Liberals over 3rd place (in terms of % share).
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#82, you really think more scrutiny closer to a General Election of the Eton crowd including and surrounding Cameron is going to drive up Tory support in Scotland?!
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One final thing Dean, and then I really must go and get some work done.
You are of course conveniently ignoring the ComRes polls in the Independent on Sunday for the last couple months showing Tory support in Scotland ranging between 7 (5% unweighted) and 16%, while showing huge gains for the Cameroons south of the border (and in Wales).
http://thewiltedrose.wordpress.com/2009/02/14/comres-tories-have-8-point-lead-in-northern-england/
One example of these from is in this link to the numbers from the wilted rose. Jumps straight to PDF, so cannot provide original; not that tech savvy.
Again - there are simply not enough Scottish polls, as opposed to tiny samples of larger UK ones, so we wont really be close to knowing until whenever Broon and Bust calls an election.
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Gordon's 'Phileas Fogg' tour encounters yet another mishap.
Click here
A less than flattering piece on the 'Please Love Me' world tour.
Click here
UK recession is worse than forecast
Click here
It's possible that the Scottish press will pick up on this 'scoop' - well you never know don't you.
Click here
Of course there are a number of stories the Scottish press are currently less than interested in:
The Dundee provost being offered a bauble by Labour and the fact that Glasgow council continue to refuse to recruit teachers despite an increase in their education budget.
Gray's apprentice gaffe was never going to be pursued with any great relish. I mean, have you seen any headline from any Scottish paper when a leader of a political party allegedly 'misleads' parliament?
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#84 deanthetory
dean, I also prefer rugby over football - they wear much nicer (tighter) outfits and we could have a conversation "afterwards".
And there's nothing "classy" about what I've just said!
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Well, well; Guess what story of the four I linked to above made it onto The Scotsman's front page?
Two others are on the political section, but only one of them makes it onto the main news section.
Does anyone still insist that the 'Scottish' media aren't biased?
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@ 90 AW
I agree exactly, thats my point exactly to ubinworryinmasheep , he seems to think that because I too rather like ruggers i'm a daily mail reading posho. It bull, your right there aint anything "classy" about my sporting preferences, in fact its entirely removed from my politics altogether.
Your entirely right (cant of course comment on the tight shirts or thighs that can crack open walnuts, naturally)
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#84 ... mmm MP's have a rather cushy job so im not so sure about that one. I have to commute to my work and my company doesnt think it fair that i should get money to compensate for this fact so why should MP'S get lots of taxpayers money to do up second homes. Lots of people in this world have to work away from home ..but the difference is they have to pay for both home and digs out of their own pocket ... by the way i dont like football either ... im into mountainbiking and hey Oldnat regarding tighter outfits ... lycra ...thats one for the ladies to admire !!
Im sorry Dean but i havent not seen a stereotypical Tory in my whole life ... look at the top people in the party ..all public school educated. They will only get back into power in England because the south is stuck in the cycle of doom. Lets face it you dont have much choice down there. If the Lib Dems were to sort themselves out maybe they would get somewhere but they never will....poor leadership etc . Scotland is different ... look how a minority government is working here .. it can only get better if the SNP hold on next time.
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@ 86
"especially when there are very few places in Scotland where the Tories are actually challenging for seats."
I'd disagree:
Stirling is entirely takeable
as is Renfrewshire East, Edin. South/Edin. SW, Argyll & Bute cannot be discounted for any party (except labour), the 3 border seats - I make that 8, hardly 'very few places', and I've not even mentioned West Aberdeen & Kincardine or Perthshire and Angus.
As for my claim for 20% it was based on the Sunday Times polls for:
24/10/08 and 30/01/09 as they're the most recent ones i'd seen, see http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/scottish-voting-intention
The link you gave, a couple of questions out of interest; when was it last updated? when was the polling data from?
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93. ubinworryinmasheep
Fair enough if you have not seen a steriotypical one before, but do you a least accept that its a bit rash to deem me one?
Especially since you've accepted (i think) that its a bit rich of you to call me a posh daily mail steriotype because i said i liked ruggers and wanted plenty of sleep for my MPs.
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#93 erm mistake ... i refer to #90 as per skin tight outfits lol ... dunno where i plucked Oldnats name from ... appologies to Aye_write as i know your certainly not old !
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95 Aye i suppose your correct there ... i could easily say all coal miners support Labour. But i must say that the Torys could do themselves some favours especially in Scotland by having more common working class people coming to the front as opposed to the double barrelled named folks that seem to be chosen. Anyway i have work to do so id better get on before i dig a bigger hole for myself .
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#96 ubinworryinmasheep
Thanks for that retraction.
Given that I'm from the North-East ("We'll support ewe evermore" was the best banner I ever saw at Pittodrie), and your username, I thought my reputation was being traduced in front of the millions (well 10s) of BTs audience!
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#96 ubinworryinmasheep
Don't let me stop you imagining oldnat in lycra!
(oldnat, ditch the lycra!)
PS You worry that I would be more offended to be called old than to be associated with lycra?
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#91 greenockboy
Of course the media is biased. So what?
I want the media to examine in detail the actions of all parties - and especially the ones in Government.
All I have to go on is the Report you linked to. Let's assume it's accurate (though possibly selective).
There is a legitimate question here. Was this an appropriate use of public money?
The answer I would have expected from Scotland's FM would have been along the lines of "The Homecoming (if this is what she was promoting) is of vital importance to rebuilding Scotland's economy. Tourism is vital to so many parts of the country, and the Government has to prime the pump. We are hugely grateful to (whatever her name is) for giving so generously of her talent and time for the sake of Scotland. Do you seriously suggest she should have paid her own expenses as well?"
Maybe he did say all that, but what was going to be reported was the "cheeky chappie" point-scoring quip about MPs second homes.
All that does is to make a connection between appalling waste of our money by McNulty and others in Westminster, and the promotion of Scotland, in the mind of the reader.
Engage brain first, open mouth later.
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#94,
One of the polls was middle of Feb, one was toward the end - if you clicked on the link you would see that.
As to Tories take back areas in the north-east, or Perth or Stirling ... No. Same about Argyll and Bute, I can guarantee you that right now.
Even Ayr looks shaky for a Tory vote now what with events at the Hospital.
Do you have any idea how much the "Angus Alliance" with the Tories at the heart of it are despised right now?
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I'm not sure that I place much reliance upon opinion poll ratings anymore, particularly not as far as LibDem (and, to a lesser extent, Tory) prospects for the next Westminster election are concerned.
It is perfectly possible for a party to have an accurately-assessed national poll rating of up to 30 per cent yet go on to win ZERO seats in FPTP, particularly where the party has a uniform appeal throughout the country.
Such a party will almost always underperform at an election, because other parties (Labour in the central belt cities, SNP in the north) have pronounced peaks and troughs of support: second place everyplace is no place!
With any sense, they will seek to mitigate this by going for personality politicians (not necessarily or even desirably famous, but people who will attract support DESPITE their party affiliation).
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#99 aye_write
"(oldnat, ditch the lycra!)"
Well I would - if I knew what it was!
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#102 Miss Terri Poster (NOT)
I'm glad that no gender change was required (I hadn't thought of spelling it that way).
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#103. oldnat
LOL!
Think Linford Christie ;-)
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@pattymkirkwood
The local troubles for the Angus Alliance is nothing to do with G.E. results; especially since voters will be voting for eityher Brown or Cameron; either New Labour or progressive Conservativism.
You are oversetimating the local factors, and a little local difficulty stirred up over the post office relocation, and hospital car parking etc is not going to derail any major Conservative campaign, espeically since Angus is one of our top targets (and has an excellent candidate in Alberto Costa).
Hardly a problem for a G.E.
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#103 Me me Oldnat ...first Chanelle from Big Brother and now Lycra ... you really must get with the times ;o)}
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Ive just read a news item saying it will cost 19 million squids for this G20 summit in London . The money being used mostly on security against the protesters that are planning on turning up. Now it seems daft to me but why dont they have it on the island of Mull or something . How much protesters would go to the trouble of going there ? And even if they did, it would be a good boost to tourism. Why does it have to be London ?
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#99 Aye_write .... Lycras not so bad. You must shave your legs though or the hairs poke through and it looks like you have cacti for legs !
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#100
The media is more incompetant than biased I think (not you Brian, you and Radio Scotland seem to be the only media outlets that try to report as it is).
They've failed to grasp the basics of devolution, frequently mixing up who and in what Parliament our politicans are/have been elected to. Further they obsess about low hanging fruits such as expenses claims and political bun fights while schools crumble, the voluntary sector implodes as Council budgets dry up and people face real hardship.
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#107 ubinworryinmasheep
"you really must get with the times"
I'm not doing a George Galloway for anyone! If that was the price of getting Independence, then Rule Britannia.
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#108 ubinworryinmasheep
Remember the G8 at Gleneagles?
What have you got against Mull?
Rockall would do nicely.
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#109 ubinworryinmasheep
I bow to your experience and dediction to beauty (if not your taste! No offence to oldnat... ;-)
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Willing to try anything comes to mind:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/scotland/5062329/Sandi-Thom-embroiled-in-row-over-10000-of-taxpayer-funded-expenses.html
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#110 Acciesman1
Welcome.
On some points I agree. Core services are what most people concentrate on.
However, things like expenses claims by MPs (and the willingness of the parties/Parliaments to address these issues) are a measure of the "fitness" of that Parliament to make decisions on our behalf.
The Scottish Parliament (through all parties) has taken fairly effective action when scandals have arisen.
Westminster still seems mired in corruption (though some of it is happily accommodated within their rules).
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@ 114 despiration by the press that is mind.
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#112 Actually i had Bells Rock in mind myself but that wouldnt be much fun for the gannets .... decide wether its the birds i'm talking about there ?
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#106 Dean, what you fail to grasp is the ground has shifted underneath you. UK-wide it may well be a battle between (Old) Tory and Labour (New Tory), but in Scotland the media will now present it as Labour vs. the SNP.
Admittedly, they will present a choice between the "Saintly" Gordon and that nasty Salmond chap for the most part. But the media is not very good at anything other than a binary narrative, and that will be the dominant one in Scotland whenever the General Election is actually called.
The reason why the Liberals gained 5% last time (in Scotland) is the media promoted them as effectively "the only anti-war party". On this occasion the stark choice offered will be SNP or Labour, it won’t enter into half or more of the population's mind to consider voting Conservative (no matter how cuddly Cameron tries to make them). Never mind the life-long hostility the Thatcher years created for many. Imagine the effect such media attention, at UK level too, in our "statutory" 5 minutes of Scottish news (come G.E. season) will have.
Also, dismiss those local considerations at your peril; people really dislike that. As far as the population of Ayr was concerned their traditional party, the Tories, betrayed them on the retention of hospital services: and they wont forget that fast. Especially, considering your average Tory voter is (to be polite) "getting on a bit".
You've moved from your "New Right" label again - probably just as well.
Incidentally, under any fair definition "Progressive Conservativism" does not, and indeed cannot, exist.
Progressive: favouring/promoting progress or reform.
Conservative: resistant to change, cautious, political philosophies that favour tradition.
Until fairly recently that domain-name was being used by supporters of Mike Huckabee over here.
http://progressiveconservatism.blogspot.com/
(no official links I believe)
It is just a cynical political rebranding exercise like "New Labour", "Red Tories", "Liberal Democrats" etc …
{To translate, the example opponents of independence would cite is, probably: "Independence in Europe"}.
Finally, "a little local difficulty stirred up over the post office relocation". The post office closures across the country are going to be huge, have you been to a rural constituency recently?
You know MacMillan once referred to rising unemployment under his administration in just that way: "a little local difficulty". I am told that didn’t work out too well for him.
Pragmatically, people will know the best way to get rid of Brown in Scotland is - 9 times out of 10 - to vote SNP, I don’t wish to shock you, but Tories by the thousands will be doing it. Admittedly, some SNP supporters will also do so in a limited number of key areas - I would personally suspect to get Darling and Jim Murphy, for example.
You cannot pretend the rules that apply in England are also appropriate for Scotland (knowingly or otherwise, that is exactly what you are doing) … political-gravity works differently here.
Clearly, we are going to disagree on this; but I wanted to put down something approximating the heart of my thinking on it. This is based on past shifts.
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#116 Dean ... desperation ! Thats hardly a story really. Its true the press are very selective on what they print. Take for instance the row over offshore bank accounts and PPP/PFI companies who are based offshore and as such pay no tax to the UK. The typical core Labour voter would not know of this huge loss of income for the UK (allowed by GB, and by allowed i mean hes not doing much to stop it) thanks to the likes of red top newspapers . But small storys like in your link are easy to print.
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Strange things going on down souff at the moment with Tories losing votes in five of the seven council by elections and actually loosing a seat to Labour.
I would say the SNP is liklier to gain seats than the Tories in Scotland at the moment as although the Tory vote has risen in some of their historically better areas the SNP vote is also up in them. There are very few Tory/Labout head to heads left in Scotland so a fading Labour vote does not translate into a rise in the Tory vote.
In a number of seats the anti Tory vote now coalesces around the SNP (Perth, for instance) and a more intersting puzzle is where is the LibDem vote going at he moment. It was a haven for soft Tories for the last few years but that part of their vote is going Tory again. The Tories however face a generation who won't be persuaded to vote Tory under any circumstance and this will take long time to fade.
Argyll and Bute is interesting. Labour,who harboured ambitions to win this as recently as 5 years ago, are completely out of it. I would think the LibDems have presently lost it and as the SNP won it at the Scottish Election they must be favourites. I would suspect its an SNP/Tory one two in Argyll and Bute at he moment. If this becomes the widely perceived perception the anti Tory vote will move to the SNP and the SNP will win. If the LibDems manage to convince voters they are still in it it becomes more complicated and the Tories could slip through the middle. I doubt it however.
There is a natural anti Tory majority in this seat and the Tories only win when it is evenly split between SNP and the Libs.
The SNP is by far the biggest political unit in the constituency, share the administration of the council with some independents and should win a seat which is natural SNP territory (except for the Lomond and Helensburgh bit that is tabbed on for the Westminster election).
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#23 absolutely correct... The usual Bias from the BBC.
Get it right BBC!!!
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After the intrigues of politics in Dundee some consensus may well be light relief. Yet, consensus doesn't necessarily bring about good politics or good policy but, for now, it sounds quite nice and, for that, I'll settle.
Holyrood was ushered in with much fanfare that this would be part of a new politics. New politics seemed to centre around the idea that adversarial politics was the old, bad stuff, and so consensus was the new way forward. Even the shape and arrangement of the debating chamber was meant to indicate a move away from the face-off of the green benches at Westminster. But, it was never to be, simply because it was an attempt to manufacture consensus.
Interestingly, the fact that so many of the leading figures of Holyrood of the time cut their teeth at Westminster meant that the infamous Westminster style was carried over into the chamber. Many felt that the failure of new politics was a failure of the process but, should we not have just realised at the time that it is the very lack of consensus that makes politics interesting.
There were a few questions that, I think, went unanswered: firstly, what is the point of politics without a competitive element, without the realisation that people disagree. In fact, disagreement and competition in politics is arguably the only way things can ever get better. Dundee would be a prime example; the other parties sought to unite around their commitment to unionism and tried to manufacture a consensus. A consensus that suited the maintenance of the Labour status quo. So, secondly, when the government, or administration, of the day talk about the importance of consensus, are they really not just talking about the importance that their position should not be opposed, and that such a position should not be open to question?
It's not to say consensus doesn't naturally break out as it seems to have done with the Labour and SNP on this occasion. But, doesn't manufactured consensus not serve only to stifle democracy. Arguably, the Iraq War was built upon consensual politics, with the Tories in support and the media indulging themselves in a so-called 'Baghdad Bounce'.
George Robertson thought devolution would kill the independence movement 'stone dead' as he put it. I just wonder if Labour's plan was to engrave the stone with the word 'consensus'. It's interesting, finally, that Murphy says that his role is to empahasise the importance of consensus in, his words, 'petty' Scottish politics. Perhaps, flying off to China before Salmond could is a demonstration of this consensual approach (he really rose above 'petty politics' with that little escapade, no kidding!).
But, then again, it is arguably at Westminster where the greatest consensus has broken out. Tories are Labour, Labour are Tories, and expenses claims are filed alongside one another in perfect harmony. Perhaps manufactured adversariness is more damaging than manufactured consensus ... I wonder ...
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#72, I raised the issue of Earth-hour with an electrical engineer collegue of mine and he confirmed my fears that if everyone was to switch their lights off at the same time for an hour, when they all switch them on at the same time, this could cause havoc with the national grid and cause power surges all over the place...
...we might all end up with our lights out... whether we like it or not. *;o(
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#89 Greenockboy,
I loved the final word on the Sandy Thom story (your 4th link)...
Quote: "For any Labour MP to raise the issue of expenses is absurd and the height of hypocrisy. These expenses would barely keep them in their second homes for a week."
..classic *;o)
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#108, the G20 has to be in London as there is no Ritz hotel in Mull...
... we wouldn't want our beloved politicians having to sleep in shoddy 4star accommodation... nah, I say they should all enjoy their all expenses paid holiday to London, besides theres more attractions than their is on Mull.
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...Aye, the moderation isnae half slow the day!!!
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#105, aye_write:
Re lycra and Linford Christie:
I always thought one of the points of lycra was to hold 'things' in place, in which Mr Christie's denier rating (?) needed to be revised.
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#127. O.B.F.U.
Well, that depends entirely on your point of view.....only kidding, like some others on here, his rambling post didn't do it for me ;-)
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Labour leader offered Letford an OBE to stand down as Provost in Dundee.
http://www.eveningtelegraph.co.uk/output/2009/03/27/story12840767t0.shtm
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The reason the G20 summit is held in London is partly security - the embassies are all there.
But London is also better equipped. If you are inviting world leaders then you provide the best. Would you expect Salmond to put his visitors up in a b&b in Pitlochry?
I see the papers are still at re Sir Fred. That is getting a bit near the knuckle when some headlines state that nowhere in the UK is safe for him.
#115 oldnat
Re the expenses, perhaps the Westminster SNP MPs could lead by example and show us that their expenses are justified. That would geta good bit of publicity and support. The media could not criticise them for being frugal. (Well, apart from Alex until he gives up his seat).
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Just seen on the Herald website the Dunfermline Building Society has been put up for sale by the treasury.
What is the difference between DBS and Northern Rock? Really stupid question one is on one side of the border and one on the other. Another union dividend?
When are people going to wake up to the fact that if any more of our countries assets are sold off, once the oil runs out, what future is there for our children or grandchildren?
Will Cameron/Thatcher mark3 think we are still a union benefit? or will he/she get rid of the Scottish benefit junkies once we are bleed dry?
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#131 dubbieside
The article doesn't say its "up for sale".
Northern Rock was a Building Society that demutualised, and became a bank.
DBS is still a mutual (why I'm a member), and I part-own it.
OK so it's all my fault.
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Re 111 Oldnat
I am glad to see the argument is not lost yet!
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Banockburn campaign.
Just home from the council by election in Banockburn, and three observations of interest:
1. Labour still do not have a candidate (election on Monday aparently)
2. Ian Gray was present, along with a wide number of councillors
3. Anne McGuire noticable through her apparent absence
But good feed back for the tories, but our candidate is a plant, her daddie is the council team leader ofr Stirling councellors.
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#131 dubbieside
Just noted the time of the Herald Report that I saw was 5.40pm. I think they must have changed the story from the one you saw.
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northhighlander
On the Goodwin thread (your #287), who's "points" were you referring to?
I said the bit about the fairness of democracy but you reference bighulla.
I'm only curious - if you think it's me who has the vote regardless of being less then deserving, I won't have a cow!
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re my #136
I think I "whipped" a man twice my age on that thread, but I'm sure everyone has their own opinion, hence my Q in #136!
;-)
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#137 Men in lycra deserve whipping ... it makes them go faster !
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"But good feed back for the tories, but our candidate is a plant, her daddie is the council team leader ofr Stirling councellors."
Thats a bit of an admission for you there Dean! Nepotism in the Tory Party ... who would have thunk it.
One outcome of grouping the Holyrood and Council elections together last time is this belief that council by-elections only matter to Holyrood and local politicians.
Labour's campaign teams for Westminster are slowly getting hollowed-out by this process. (Councillor is three-quarters of the time at the heart of each group). I am in a good mood today, so I will credit this as the one tangible achievement of the Lib Dems, after 8 years of playing Labour's stooges.
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Oldnat
I have just been on the Herald web site again and the headline is.
"Dunfermline Building Society collapses and is forced into sale"
The BBC website headline is,
"Forced sale of building society"
I would say that means it is up for sale, so the question remains, what is the difference between DBS and Northern Rock?
Even if it is a mutual if it has no money it will still be put up for sale. If it was an English mutual it would have been bailed out by the treasury. Another union dividend.
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#134 deanthetory
Many thanks for the Banockburn update - do keep us posted.
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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http://www.ardrossanherald.com/articles/1/35538
Dean, this has just come to my attention. Slightly unfair to ask, but you are the sole "regular" representative of your party on here to my knowledge!
Perhaps you could explain to me why my local Tory candidate at home (Philip Lardner) has not been replaced as the Tory nominee for the Westminster seat after this,
http://www.sundayherald.com/news/heraldnews/display.var.2356779.0.tory_candidate_calls_racist_rhodesian_leader_a_hero.php
He named white-supremacist Rhodesian "separatist" leader Ian Smith as among his political heroes and then went on to claim that Enoch Powell was right on immigration (in the same interview). He was suspended from the Party some time ago, and I had assumed would be de-selected. As I say, it only recently (in the last week or so) came to my attention that he was not.
Frankly, it boggles the mind that he is even allowed to remain as a primary school teacher, never mind a candidate for a quote, mainstream, political party! The history classes in that particular classroom would certainly be interesting to hear.
There was even a stage where the BNP offered him a chance to defect, should he be de-selected (which, he rejected in advance). That was how certain it appeared he would be gone last time I heard.
http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-16888092.html
He also appears to completely deny climate change and the Cameroon’s attempts to "green" the Tories,
http://www.sundayherald.com/news/heraldnews/display.var.2459754.0.race_row_tory_walks_into_new_storm_over_climate_change.php
Finally, that highbeam link mentions he once thought offering protection to Salmon Rushdie was a deliberate attempt by members of the Govt. to get the Queen assassinated!
As I say I realise this is really an unfair question to ask, but ... any thoughts on how he might have survived? I have no idea.
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The only thing I have to offer so far for Lardner's continuation as a Tory Candidate for Westminster is a claim of long-term demonic possession.
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I notice Brown sets out the importance of self-determination re the Falkland Islands...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7969463.stm
A British official said Mr Brown had "set out the British Government's long-standing position on sovereignty in very clear terms".
"He emphasised the importance of self-determination.
Hypocrite.
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@ pattymkirkwood
It is seriously complicated.
He has been kept on as many within the party undoubtedly see him as a victim of the anti-PC lobby; I for one make no comment at this point.
Also, it might be considered an embarrisment to withdraw the candidate; given the level of time and money spent on 'selling him' to the locals in the constituency.
As for the BNP offer, again- the party constituency office had spent much time (presumably) in 'selling' him to the voters as the local office.
Again, i'm making no comment of personal opinion at this point.
And finally the whole affair over assasintation etc, surely he must have withdrawn the remark? (Presumedly).
No comment of personal opinion of this whole affair again.
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#142 Are you sure he didnt mean Ian 'Duncan' Smith was his hero :o)}
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131. At 5:05pm on 28 Mar 2009, dubbieside:
Bradford and Bingley were also broken up. This isn't some great anti-Scottish conspiracy. The DBS has exposure to toxic loans. Brown didn't magically produce a huge debt for it.
The question you should be asking is why the board of DBS were allowed to operate they way they did. Look into the assets and loans.
This is another case where weak regulation has caused a collapse, and no one I can recall has demanded tight regulation prior to the credit crunch.
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#145 Dean, fair enough - worth a try, I was just so shocked to hear that he hadn't been removed! Seemed an open and shut case if you are praising white supremacists.
Just to add, the views being put forward by Mr Lardner are certainly not anything that can be called "Progressive Conservatism".
I believe the Rushdie comment was MEANT to be funny, btw.
#146, IDS as anyone's "political hero" is even more unlikely! Don’t you think? ;-)
"Asked to name his political hero, Lardner is quoted as saying: "Maybe Ian Smith (Rhodesia), Sir Francis Drake, Sir Winston Churchill or Maggie, who knows? …
Ian Smith typified a British hero who came from the Empire and fought for his country. I met him in 1998 and got to shake his hand. I am confident Ian Smith was a good man. You stand by your friends."
http://www.sundayherald.com/news/heraldnews/display.var.2356779.0.tory_candidate_calls_racist_rhodesian_leader_a_hero.php
With friends like that …
Sir Francis Drake sticks out even more for me. (Tory Party favors pirates). Also reeks of that "English nationalist" tag they are trying to avoid.
If the Tories in Scotland want to be taken seriously, it is people like their Westminster candidate for North Ayrshire and Arran they need to "purge", for lack of a better word, from leadership roles.
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#148 and #142 pattymkirkwood and #145 deanthetory
I cannot help wondering whether this Philip Lardner fellow, who reportedly expressed admiration for Ian Smith, is a relative of Desmond Lardner-Burke, who was a member of Mr Smith's rebel Rhodesian government.
Lardner-Burke was a supporter of white supremacy, and claimed to support the views of Cecil Rhodes. In 1971, he preached a sermon from the pulpit of Salisbury's Anglican Cathedral, in which he claimed that Christ had never declared that everyone was equal, nor that everyone was entitled to equal treatment. He attempted to illustrate how Christian theology could be shown to support apartheid.
At the Southern Rhodesian general election, 1962, Lardner-Burke was elected for the Gwelo constituency. The Rhodesian Front formed the new government, and after a period on the backbenches, Lardner-Burke was appointed Minister for Law and Order and Justice. In this role, he gave advice on which political detainees were suitable for release. He also acted as Leader of the House.
The Times has described Lardner-Burke as "...responsible for the harassment, arrest and detention without trial of tens of thousands of black nationalists, including President Mugabe, fighting against white rule in the 1960s and 1970s."
Following UDI, Lardner-Burke stepped up his struggle against militants opposed to the Rhodesian Front. He made the possession of "weapons of war" a mandatory capital offence, and in order to escape this punishment, those accused were expected to demonstrate that they did not intend to endanger life.
In 1967, Michael Holman, a white student activist, published a poem criticising the Rhodesian Front's racial policy. For this, he was arrested, but a trial acquitted him of any crime. However, Lardner-Burke used his powers to immediately have Holman arrested and detained without trial.
Lardner-Burke again held his seat at the Rhodesian general election, 1970, but stood down in 1974. By 1974, he had been given powers to "arrest without warrant and detain without communication anyone regarded as a threat to the 'public interest'".
I think we need to be reassured that any connection that Mr Lardner may have with the Lardner-Burke of the rebel Rhodesian regime and any admiration that he may still have for the leader of it will not have an adverse impact on the political culture of multi-cultural Scotland.
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#140 dubbieside
I think I've solved the confusion.
There are 2 "News" links on the Herald site. The first (which I looked at) was the feed from the Press agencies. The second (which you looked at is the Herald story).
Both are now largely in agreement.
The Sunday Herald has a little more detail.
As a member, I was particularly struck by this section "Northern Rock, which was also saved by the UK government yet had been undermining the building society sector with its cut-throat home loans products."
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Neil_Small147
I know about B&B. My question was what is the difference between DBS and Northern Rock?
The Northern Rock bail out was in Billions the DBS needs about one hundred million. Quite a difference.
So my question to you is once again, what is the difference between DBS and NR, apart from the fact that they are on opposite sides of the border?
That and the fact your hero Brown will "do anything to save the union"
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#149 Sapienter,
I simply don't know the answer to that, I doubt he would have been able to survive politically after praising Ian Smith - then again, I don't really know how he has so far.
"I think we need to be reassured that any connection that Mr Lardner may have with the Lardner-Burke of the rebel Rhodesian regime and any admiration that he may still have for the leader of it will not have an adverse impact on the political culture of multi-cultural Scotland."
Indeed, especially considering how electable he is.
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#151
There is a difference between Northern Rock and DBS, please point out the level of debt we were in during the Northern Rock fiasco?
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151. At 10:08pm on 28 Mar 2009, dubbieside:
You think Brown is letting Dumfy going down to prevent independence? If that is true then it would have the opposite effect.
The fault lies squarely with the board of DBS, as did NR, B&B and so on.
OK, so the Government should have had much tighter regulation, but no one said boo about that during the good times.
Northern Rock was a bank, DBS is a building society. You can get away with a building society falling down, but not a bank. Simplistic view I know, but to put the reasons for the failure to rescue DBS to prevent independence is total hogswash.
And stop making wrong assumptions about the views of other bloggers on here. It is typical behaviour of both harcore nationalists and unionists the second there is the slightest hint of not following the preferred course.
Find a single post of mine anywhere on the BBC where I have stated that Gordon Brown is my hero.
Grow up.
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#149 Sapienter
Fascinating stuff!
As an elector in the constituency that Mr Lardner was/is/will be a candidate, it is with some certainty that the victor will be Labour or SNP and that, like patty, Lardner's chances approximate to that of the survival probability of a sphere of water crystal surviving in the nether regions of Auld Nick's realm (or even Auld Eck's realm!)
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#151 dubbieside
If Neil votes SNP because he loves Brown, then one of you is very confused!
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The Independent today reckons the G20 is costing 50 million quid to stage. And that's before calculating any losses caused by disruption to business, and any damage that protesters may cause.
To put that in context that's about three Fred Goodwin pensions or 75% of a Dunfermline Building Society rescue package.
And suddenly that 500 million cut in funding to Scotland (and Wales and Northern Ireland) is looking even less like a good idea, eh folks?
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156. At 11:24pm on 28 Mar 2009, oldnat wrote:
#151 dubbieside
If Neil votes SNP because he loves Brown, then one of you is very confused!
--------------------
What really annoys me is that one or two people on this board immediately assume that you must be an anti-nationalist, pro unionist, Brown loving, Thatcherite policy true believer simply because you disagree woth something.
There has been a rash of conspiracy theories lately.
Perhaps we should rename Scotland to Area 51.......
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PS Don't forget the clocks change tonight! And though it might seem like you've woken up in the 1970's tomorrow morning, this is New Labour's economic mismanagement! If only we could bring back our 1970's football team so easily :o(
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#159 loon,
It would be nice to get to the actual tournament for once before the whole "glorious failure" thing kicks in again! From what I have heard, today's defeat was none too glorious ...
Watch this, should cheer someone up!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nB0nFze1Fdw&feature=related
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There's a wonderful story in SoS about Salmond meeting with the Welsh Commission on expanding their devolution settlement to something more approximating to ours.
How about these insightful comments from the pretendy wee Labour Party's spokeschildren -
Former Secretary of State for Scotland Des Browne said: "It really is bizarre that Alex Salmond chooses to discriminate against Scotland like this. It shows he is not serious about the Calman process." Shadow Scottish Secretary David Mundell said: "This is confirmation that Alex Salmond is more interested in breaking up Britain than making devolution work."
I have to say that if I knew that the SNP wanted Scotland to be independent, and not be satisfied with devolution, I would never have voted them!
Clearly it takes great brainpower to have weaseled out this devastating information which the SNP must have been trying to cover up! I am eternally grateful to NuLab for having exposed the secret plans of this sinister group! How could I not vote for such intellectual giants for evermore!
(Excuse me while I put on this latex outfit)
Rule Brittania
Brittania waives the rules etc etc
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Vote for independence or oldnat will put on his latex suit?!!
;-)
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re my #161
I just realised that David Mundell was one of the inspired thinkers in that article.
Now how could I possibly have confused a Tory with NuLab?
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#161 OMG OMG (look that one up Oldnat lol)...... LATEX !!!! now while lycra is a sporty / glam rock material, theres something going on in the Oldnat household if your reduced to latex ...anyway top tip for lycra is talcum power !!
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Treasury has not spoken to DBS since last October, and now it is closing them down.
http://www.sundayherald.com/news/heraldnews/display.var.2498519.0.0.php
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Under Labour rules designed to increase the number of female MPs, an all-women list is automatic when a male MP retires or dies.
http://www.sundayherald.com/news/heraldnews/display.var.2498511.0.labour_rebels_may_defy_allwoman_list_to_succeed_reid.php
"But activists in Airdrie and Shotts are refusing to accept what they describe as 'diktat' from Labour's hierarchy in London, and the imposition of a party 'apparatchik'. Many want to nominate North Lanarkshire councillor Jim Logue as Labour's candidate.
Some also fear that Harriet Harman, Labour's deputy leader, is trying to install one of her supporters to bolster her power base in anticipation of a leadership contest.
In 2005, Labour lost Blaenau Gwent, their fifth-safest seat in the UK, after a row over an all-women list prompted Labour's Peter Law to leave the party and run as an independent. He overturned a majority of 19,313. The majority in Airdrie and Shotts is 14,084."
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#164 ubinworryinmasheep
Point taken (as one might say).
I was probably confused by the anti-Aids comedy sketch in the 80s where both participants were wholly encased in that material!
That would definitely scare people into voting for independence as aye suggested!
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#166 pattymkirkwood
"Under Labour rules designed to increase the number of female MPs, an all-women list is automatic when a male MP retires or dies."
What do they do when a clone retires or dies? That must be much commoner.
(Now back to a 5 hour time difference with the USA, as we have just moved to Summer Time).
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#168, don't know - that should have been in quotes too, got to thinking about it and why didn't it apply in Glenrothes if the sundayherald article is correct?!
Sounds to me like one of those Labour, whenever the high command says so, decisions ... you really think they might have learnt after Blaenau Gwent!
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Another Scottish institution about to disappear - we wait to hear the outcry from our media representatives (Don't hold your breath).
The news that the Treasury haven't spoken to the Dunfermline's board since October is shocking as is it's refusal to even consider the two week old offer from the SNP aimed at prtecting the Building society's independence.
Had Scotland been independent there is no question that the Scottish government would have stepped in prevent this sell off, and it could have !!
BBC radio Scotland have described the treasury of rejecting a plan to save the Dunfermline. The item makes no mention of the fact that the plan was put forward by the SNP fully two weeks ago, are the BBC afraid that the electorate may realise that one party was prepared to save this institution.
There is apparently no information from The Treasury explaining the logic of their decision and why the plan put forward by the Scottish government has been rejected.
The decision by the Treasury has been described as a scandal by the society's chairman Jim Faulds. Faulds adds: "We've been in regular dialogue with the Financial Services Authority for six months now, but we are astounded by the behaviour of the Treasury, who haven't spoken to us since last October."
That faunt of no wisdom Jim Murphy said "the problems with Dunfermline were so severe that a simple government cash injection would have no effect."
Frankly, I don't think that Jim Murphy has the intellect to even appreciate what he is uttering.
The decision is indeed a disgrace, another major Scottish institution will be no more. I suspect that there will be little or no explanation as to the reasons why this building society chose to invest in markets outwith it's typical areas.
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Re 136
my point is that Big windbag would find it difficult to pass any test on anything and if voting was restricted by intelligence then Bignoise would not be voting.
I know that democracy means everyone is entitled to an opinion but there is a limit. I try to stop myself from replying but sometimes I weaken.
A good effert by the way on the Goodwin thread, but wasted on the target. No amount of humiliation in the debate will make any difference to that kind.
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David Watts of the IOD just on Radio Scotland agreeing that the decision to brrak up the Dunfermline does not make sense.
Interestingly Douglas fraser seemed to stumble and stammer when asked what the SNP stance was. Fraser appeared to be choosing his words carefully and subsequently didn't mention the fact that the SNP had offered a capital contribution to pevent the takeover - again why not make this clear?
Jim Faulds expected on todays Politics Show, interviewed by our old friend Glen Campbell. Let's watch Glen's mood change when Faulds starts to criticise the UK Treasury's stance and by implication Brown and Darling.
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#166 pattymkirkwood
Thanks for the heads-up on the all-female list story. I'm all for equality but this is positive discrimination against the electorate and even the Harperson must see her policy is rubbish. If NuLab really wanted to promote equality, they would introduce STV for Westmidden and guarantee fielding a choice of candidates from different genders and ethnicities for every vacancy.
Another nice story in the Herald's Forget saving the world - can Brown save his skin?. Says it all about the G20 really, especially their closing: "But a broken summit will be something Brown cannot recover from - so he will claim a triumph, whether or not he 'makes' it."
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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#172 northhighlander
Now, I see. Thank you then - I know you do not waste praise!
And you're right, the exercise merely served to make him more grumpy (maybe there was some point to it after all ;-)
#173 greenockboy
My tuppence worth on this issue is that what you describe surely cannot but help independence when the facts, as they are, are recounted to the voter. Had the Treasury stepped in then they might have looked "good" and we wouldn't want that! So, yes a scandal, but in the long run...
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The NuLab propaganda machine must have forgotten to send any press releases to the Sunday Herald this week. There's certainly nothing I spotted to suggest it.
Instead, there's a good opinion piece from their Westminster Editor, Translating governmentspeak ... this week: whatever it takes. I particularly liked: "Yet his whatever-it-takes statement of the obvious continues to be trotted out as though it holds significant meaning."
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There's a shock - Sky News is currently outside the 2nd of Jackboot Jacqui in Redditch wanting her to comment on the story on this website's Smith 'sorry' for expenses claim where she promises to repay the cost of 'adult' movies she didn't watch. Hope the Sky reporter is wearing a flak jacket!
There's also a good clip of Miliband Major defending her as "doing an outstanding job as Home Secretary". I agree with him, but probably not about whether it's a good or a bad one.
How surprising the fragrant lady isn't having a quiet week-end in her main home in Peckham.
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Neil_Small147
I would be happy if you could point out where I said that,
"You think Brown is letting Dumfy going down to prevent independence? If that is true then it would have the opposite effect"
Where did I say the DBS was going down to prevent independence?
I asked what is the difference between DBS and Northern Rock and why the difference in the bail outs.
Thomas_Porter
The level of debt has not been an issue for any other bail out. If the Nationwide were in trouble you can bet the money would be found to keep it the Nationwide
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I wait with interest to see what's in store when Jim Murphy appears on the Politics show.
It's 12:35 as I write this and I'm hoping that Murphy appears alongside Salmond on this one.
Let's wait and see !!
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Well, let's hope everyone was tuned in to see the Jim Faulds interview where he basically tore the UK Treasury and UK ministers to shreds.
Faulds comment that he hoped people would remember the help offered by the SNP and Salmond and contrast this with the actions of Labour ministers - (and that he himself certainly would) drew gasps from me, not least because of the passion with which it was said.
Salmond spoke with clarity and a clear understanding of the situation. One was left with a view that this society is being torn up for political reasons alone.
Jim Murphy appeared last of the three and his pathetic parroting of things he clearly didn't understand was compounded by his usual monotonous delivery.
All in all a very bad decision, the reasons behind it remain unclear as do the the answers to Faulds and Salmon's revelation that figures were not forthcoming when they were seeking to access the Liquidity scheme.
Finally, how many times did 'Ignorant Jim' profess to being 'unaware' of aspects of this story?
First it was the First Minister's visit to China, now it's aspects of the breaking up of Scotland's biggest building society. Is Jim Murphy aware of anything of importance to Scotland?
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#180 greenockboy
Thanks for the update. Unless someone knows a way that I don't, us expats can no longer get the Politics Show live.
Aunty Beeb seems to have taken note of Mr Faulds, though, with their Dunfermline boss attacks Treasury now given top ranking on the main Scotland politics page. It does seem to be a heavily bowdlerised version of what you say, though, with no criticism of UK ministers nor praise of the FM. There's a shock!
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PS to my #181
At least the bowdlerisation of the BBC report I link to included omitting the contribution of the estimable Mr Murphy.
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Well, I see the Home Secretary's husband likes to watch "educational" films.
Nothing like a bit of light entertainment (for us) as he squirms.
On a serious note though - why is the taxpayer also appear to be subsidising personal entertainment? How does watching Oceans 13 help with parliamentary or constituency matters.
This is a resignation matter. She "inadvertantly" made a claim. If she cannot do her own expenses correctly, then how can she be trusted with one of the most critical roles in Government?
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178. At 11:35am on 29 Mar 2009, dubbieside:
The way you wrote your post implied that Brown is letting DBS fail to prevent independence.
We need clear facts before diving into the political arguments.
Having a scan of different business and news sites on the Internet, and listening to Faulds/Darling, there are numerous descriptions of what debt there is or not.
Faulds is trying the political game, which is dangerous. Someone should be pressing him for the full facts.
Likewise, Darling should be asked why he will not support DBS.
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#183 Neil_Small147
"Nothing like a bit of light entertainment (for us) as he squirms."
The fragrant lady clearly agrees with you, and it's interesting to note that the earlier front page story "Smith 'sorry' for expenses claim" I reported in my #177 has been delinked from everywhere so far as I can see and replaced with Smith's husband sorry over films.
Looks as though someone at Aunty Beeb also got an earful!
"This is a resignation matter."
Is anything a resignation matter to the UK government any more?
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#183 Neil_Small147
PS to my #185
"Well, I see the Home Secretary's husband likes to watch 'educational' films"
I believe the US Navy call them training films.
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#184 Neil_Small147
"Faulds is trying the political game, which is dangerous. Someone should be pressing him for the full facts."
The game is already over for Jim Faulds, the Labour Government is breaking up and selling off the Dunfermline Building Society from under him tomorrow.
Brown has been too busy planning the G20 swanning off to South America and Darling has been too busy trying to break his link with Brown to notice or to care what is happening in Scotland.
Since Jim Faulds doesn't have to hold his tongue anymore and play the political game in an effort to save the Dunfermline he can now tell the truth.
Darling and Brown are happy to watch the Dunfermline going down the pan while Alex Salmond tried to save it with the limited resources he had available.
It's not a game. It's the simple uncomfortable, unvarnished truth straight from the horse's mouth.
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#183 Neil_Small147
PPS to my #185
I note that the two near-identical reports I link to above both contain the texts she "mistakenly" claimed for a TV package when billing for a web connection and Jacqui Smith is reportedly "livid and shocked".
I wonder why Mr Timney should apologise on her behalf, when it was "she" who made the claim?
I wonder who Ms Smith is "livid" with? Herself? The Press?
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Neil Small writes:
"Faulds is trying the political game, which is dangerous. Someone should be pressing him for the full facts."
Did you watch The Politics Show Neil?
Faulds presented the viewer and Glen Campbell with a clear and comprehensive decription of the situation, facts and all.
Anyone looking for reasons for independence (ahem) would have moved a great deal closer towards such following Faulds revelations.
It is interesting though that you appear to want Faulds to be pressed and not Darling, Brown, Murphy or anyone from The Treasury.
Faulds was positively chomping at the bit to not just answer Glen Campbell's questions but to elaborate on them.
I suspect that Salmond and Faulds have been strung along on this from the outset. The Unionist establishment had no intention of helping to save this institution.
Stand by for the now usual 'balancer' stories from the Scottish branch of the British press. The Sandi Thom one seems to be their only card just now, however I'm sure that a medical record or two might be found to have been lost or a council somewhere will highlight a cut in some deserving service and hey presto - a plethora of anti SNP headlines.
I could be wrong of course and the press up here will go after Murphy and co over this, however, as always I'm not hopefull.
Incidently Neil, the breaking up of financial institutions don't prevent independence per se. However, what they do is to essentially asset strip from Scotland PLC, thus removing excellent fiscal generating entities from the 'business'.
A win/win for Westminster, an independent Scotland no longer controls these institutions so that when the good times return they generate money for London.
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#187 DougtheDug
Sounds right to me.
At least this website is waking up and now has a much fuller story with video of the FM on the 14:33 BST version of Dunfermline boss attacks Treasury and more detail on what Mr Faulds had to say, but sadly no video of him just yet. Was his language really too strong before the watershed?
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189. At 1:39pm on 29 Mar 2009, greenockboy:
I watched the clip on the BBC site (ok, I know, maybe it's be "edited").
However, Darling has come out with facts and figures which Faulds has disputed. So who is telling the truth?
Yes, I would expect poeple to believe Faulds, bearing in mind Darling's record. Howevre, Faulds is the Chairman so he will want to put things in the best light.
An independent review would give the true facts.
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#188 Brownedov
Why the shock? The definition of expense is "wasteful expenditure, extravagance", and that is from the English dictionary.
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Any other "nationalists" wanting to criticise Jim Faulds and defend the sale and break up of the Dunfermline?
No?
seems it's just yourself again Neil :O)
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Neil_Small147
178. At 11:35am on 29 Mar 2009, dubbieside:
The way you wrote your post implied that Brown is letting DBS fail to prevent independence.
My post did no such thing. The way you interpreted it assumed that. A lot of your posts have you making assumptions on peoples posts then making arguments on your own assumptions.
Maybe my post did not suit you unionist agenda?
Oldnat
Do you still think he is an SNP voter?
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#191 Neil_Small147
"I watched the [Darling] clip on the BBC site"
I presume you're referring to the 16m 35s clip of Capn. Darling being interviewed on the Politics Show on Darling on G20 and Dumfermline, which is mainly him avoiding giving straight answers to questions on the relationship between him and King, with a minute or so at the end avoiding giving straight answers to questions about Mr Faulds' statement that "ministers had refused to speak to the business" as the BBC article I link to in my #190 puts it.
If that's the case, your "Yes, I would expect poeple to believe Faulds, bearing in mind Darling's record" seems masterly understatement.
If not, please post a URL.
I've already entered a comment on the web page asking for a clip of the Faulds interview and suggest others do the same.
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/7970669.stm
Just watch that snake Darling on this. Even assuming what he says is correct (which DBS' management denies), this is the Chancellor which has just saddled Britain with debt it cannot service, never mind pay back ... time for liquidation.
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#192 handclapping
Point taken. We could do with aye_write's take on this, but I suspect that it was the sheer extravagance of hubby's blowing £21 on entertainment whilst she had so frugally limited her expenditure on sleeping in her sister's broom-cupboard to a mere £116,000.
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greenockboy
Your 189.
Interesting analysis of the DBS situation. I have never had any thoughts on how this will effect the independence issue. I do however have very definite views on this deliberate asset stripping of Scotlands assets by Brown who "will do anything to save the union.
That is why in my post 131 I wrote,
When are people going to wake up to the fact that if any more of our countries assets are sold off, once the oil runs out, what future is there for our children or grandchildren?
Will Cameron/Thatcher mark3 think we are still a union benefit? or will he/she get rid of the Scottish benefit junkies once we are bled dry?
Are you and I the only people on here who see this as deliberately stripping Scotlands assets for political ends? If our kids are to have any kind of future we need out of this discredited union now.
If you look through Neil Smalls posts the recurring theme is always someone else who needs to be pressed for the full facts. We could all do with getting the full facts from Brown Darling and Murphy, but the chances of that happening are less than Brian T playing for Scotland.
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so we have had jade goody ,dunfermline building society, GB's world tour ,GB winding up the royal family, umpteen silly expenses story's none of which will lead anywhere. the media have decided to talk about anything but "the economy stupid " as one of Mr Brown's best pals from the special relationship once called it.
not long to go now till the riots will take everyone's mind of the disaster that is brown.
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#198 dubbieside:
We could all do with getting the full facts from Brown Darling and Murphy, but the chances of that happening are less than Brian T playing for Scotland.
We could do worse than stick Brian in goal for the remaining qualifiers...no way past ;o)
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Let's wait for Neil to watch the full interview.
I am however willing to bet that such was the passion from Faulds and such was the damaging nature to Labour, Darling and the UK Treasury of the revelations, that the interview will quickly disappear or will have been edited.
I truly hope that on this one I am wrong.
It should be on Youtube, for me it was as good as the Euro MSP's attack on Brown, all the more efective bacause it comes from a non politically aligned (until now !!) Scottish businessman.
Dynamite, if we had a real press and media.
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Early days yet, but I'd ask you all to think about the following quote from this website's Dunfermline boss attacks Treasury:
Meanwhile, Mr Faulds warned of more trouble ahead for the building society sector, adding: "Perhaps the government are worried about the precedent they may set with us.
"Perhaps they've, frankly, taken the huff because we went to the Scottish Government in utter frustration at London's inability and unwillingness to help us."
Unable and (worse in my view) unwilling to help. Still, you have to take the rough with the smooth, after all the union dividend does give us...erm, err...
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#196 pattymkirkwood
The page you link to is the same one linked to in my #190 and it's obviously still a work in progress with a timestamp now 15:22 BST rather than the 14:33 I last saw. The new clip is a highly selective 47s extract of the 16m 35s clip I link to in my #195. The full chat on the DBS starts 14m 30s in to the clip and goes on for 2m+ until the end of it.
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Dubbieside:
#198.
"Interesting analysis of the DBS situation. I have never had any thoughts on how this will effect the independence issue. I do however have very definite views on this deliberate asset stripping of Scotlands assets by Brown who "will do anything to save the union."
I disagree.
Although I am not suggesting that Gordon Brown and Alistar Darling would not stoop so low and would not strip Scotland of her best assets on purpose, perhaps to make the people of Scotland feel less confident?
If the London Government nationalised every insitituation that we seen as 'Scottish' or was strongly based in Scotland, then effectivly England would hold a majority stake in a post-independent Scotland, after 2010.
What's the difference being sold into private hands or remaining owned by the Government of England, which would be sold off in future into private investors?
I'd also like to point out that there is no reason why Scotland can not buy up local business in future, or even buy some shares...
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#203, Brownedov, thanks for drawing that to my attention, but we are still to hear any real reasons as to why it is OK to let this one go. What is clear, is that the real answers are nothing to do with stated reasons.
Labour have spent a half billion on Govt. PR in the last two years, are holding a huge conference in London - that we are told is "only" costing 2 to 4 times what is required to save the DBS (never mind disruption costs to the economy), and is going to achieve next to nothing: statement of "principles" at best.
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Just when you think the New Liebour sleaze machine cannot sink any lower, the Home Secretary and her hubby have been caught charging "adult" films to her parliamentary expenses!
http://www.express.co.uk/ourpaper/view/2009-03-29
Gordon, re the Falklands, "self-determination"? We want that now. If your too scared to allow a referendum on Scotland's future ... at least call a General Election.
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Finally, just look at this from Sir Kenneth Calman,
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/7970880.stm
The SNP shouldn't criticise the Calman commission if it didn't take part.
Sir Kenneth, perhaps if you didn't want nasty things said about your pretendy commission, you shouldn't have excluded the large proportion of the population that want independence, and allowed it to become a front for whatever Labour Party policy is.
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#205 pattymkirkwood
We're not at odds over this - I just want to get to the bottom of what's going on and it doesn't look good. For now, I'm anxious to collect data before reaching my personal conclusion.
At last a snippet of the Faulds interview has been put on this website at: Dunfermline boss attacks Treasury [video clip]
Dunfermline boss attacks Treasury [story] is still obviously a work in progress and now has a timestamp of 17:19 BST, but doesn't link directly to the clip yet.
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#206 pmk
Ach, leave the poor man be! His hinnie is always away living in her sister's broom cupboard and he's afraid he's forgotten how.
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Re dunfermline BS.
We need to remember that the Treasury, bank of England, FSA have seen a few of these situations now. What has to be remembered is that the DBS made some bad decisions, all on their own.
We are all making statements without seeing the full facts. I seem to remember that during the HBOS situation many posters did the same. That situation turned out a lot worse than was realised.
I don't think the conspiracy theorists are right, there is little benfit to the unionist campaign in the DBS going out of business. Anyway remember it is not he government that is putting the DBS out of business it is the poor decisions made by the DBS management that have done this.
This is a situation where the important issue is to protect savers and as many jobs as possible, balanced against reasonable cost and risk to the taxpayer.
All efforts should be in this direction
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PS to my #208
There really is a nasty whiff about the DBS story. It's patently obvious from the short clip that Faulds was livid over just having heard from Capn. Darling's Politics Show about the exact numbers the Treasury claim they need, and he's either a superlative actor or his "We are absolutely astounded at how illogical this decision is" came straight from the heart.
The clip is clearly a very short section of the interview as it doesn't cover the "faceless mandarins" or "My worry now is the staff" quotes on the "story" text.
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#210 northhighlander
I'm certainly trying not to rush to judgement, but the caginess of Capn. Darling over answering questions about contact with DBS and the chairman's patent horror over the issue is pretty compelling reality TV.
Did you see the show live? What's your view of the video available now?
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#208, Brownedov - I am aware of that, thanks. Nice of you to keep us posted as the BBC machine slowly brings the news to us,
"HIGHLIGHTS" FROM BROWNEDOV'S NEW LINK,
Worth noting that the company believes it knows exactly what amount of money it needs LOANED AT COMMERCIAL RATES to survive, somewhere between 20-30 million (Probably 26), the auditors say take 30-40 to be safe ... Alasdair Darling earlier on the Politics Show made up the figure 60-100.
Neither the company or the auditor had been informed of this figure so far, or know where the Govt. pulled it from.
In any case, it is AT WORST the supposed cost (minus hidden expenses) of Gordon Brown's Grand-Standing "New Bretton Woods" in London, which will have exactly no solid outcome, other than pictures of himself standing next to President Obama while platitudes are read out to the waiting world.
Plus DBS is seeking a loan at a high rate of interest. This is money the taxpayer would genuinely get back (for once).
#209, handclapping - so the next question Gordon will have to answer will be: is it OK for Govt. ministers to fiddle their housing expenses, and then claim "adult" material for their spouse for reimbursement as well? (Presumably under some sort of grand "miscellaneous" column)!
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#214 pmk
I'm sure Griffiths and other MPs would be delighted to have the precedent set that the absence of one's normal "personal benefits" should have to be made up for at commercial rates. After all, it will increase the country's GNP when it becomes commercialised.
Who cares, it's all at the taxpayers expense.
Cure:- After a Westmidden election, half of all MPs elected on a party lable get sent home with an unaccountable, untaxable GBP18,000 pa. No salary, no allowances, no expenses, no jollies, no pensions, no "transition payments" when fired, no extra hot air, no jobs for political researchers, the benefits just go on and on.
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Re DBS, there are a few more snippets of information on Douglas Fraser's new Faulds bites back
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Thomas_Porter
Why am I not surprised you do not agree. It would however be helpful if you could explain the different bail outs of DBS and Northern Rock. NR needed billions, DBS needs millions quite a difference. Why one rule for one and quite another for DBS.
Brownedov
I have just watched Jim Faulds on Channel 4 news at 6.30 and the guy is livid. He said that they have repeatedly said there were no American toxic assets at DBS, and he said so on radio this morning but ministers were still repeating the claim later today. He also said a deal was reached with the Scottish government to get a loan for 25 million but that was blocked by the treasury.
Funnily enough no one from the treasury or any ministers would talk to Channel 4. Maybe they only come out to play with the ultra tame BBC.
This is nothing less than yet another deliberate attempt to give away at fire sale prices Scotlands assets.
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193. At 2:09pm on 29 Mar 2009, GrassyKnollington wrote:
Any other "nationalists" wanting to criticise Jim Faulds and defend the sale and break up of the Dunfermline?
No?
seems it's just yourself again Neil :O)
---------------
I'm not defending it. But no one seems to be asking Faulds WHY DBS has made such losses. I can understand his frustration at Westminster, but he needs to tell us about DBS business models. Their own IT business failed for starters. If they haven't invested in these toxic US interests, then what did happen?
Greenockboy I did state that Darling should be pressed as well to explain why the Treasury will not support DBS.
Oh grassy, why the quotation marks? Are you another one who won't accept any questions not directed towards Labour?
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An extract from Brownedov's link at #215,
"Signalling that he thinks there is nothing left in trying to keep Labour ministers on board, Faulds has heaped praise on Alex Salmond and the SNP administration, saying they grasped the thistle, the first minister has been 'absolutely magnificent, and the people of Dunfermline, Fife and Scotland will remember that'. Not the kind of thing that will keep him on Gordon Brown's Christmas card list.
Speaking on the Politics Show Scotland earlier today, the former advertising agency boss even suggested there was an element of huff at Westminster that the Nationalist administration had got involved, with an offer of support to back up its social housing loan book.
This is despite protestations of amicable dealings between Darling and Salmond, at least until yesterday. They're looking less amicable today.
But as he sprayed the TV studio with revenge, perhaps the most ominous comments from Faulds were that the government's treatment of Dunfermline may be because it knows 'the building society sector has more worries to come'."
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http://www.newsoftheworld.co.uk/news/241973/Nigel-Griffiths-tries-to-gag-the-News-of-the-World.html
The term "Westmidden" that has been bandied about this blog for a while has never been more justified.
"Incredibly 53-year-old Griffiths wants you to believe he has 'little recollection' of spending 38 minutes taking 27 explicit images of a woman spreadeagled across the furniture of his ground floor Commons office, just yards from the Prime Minister’s own Commons office.
It was such an unmemorable sex session that he also apparently barely remembers, just half hour later, spending another hour and 40 minutes taking a futher 44 pictures at a second location.
On Friday Griffiths’ lawyer David Price blamed the MP’s loss of memory about the Remembrance Day romp on being 'under the influence of alcohol'. But at one point he had recollected enough to create the time to transfer those 71 snaps from his camera to his laptop."
It just makes you wonder if anyone down there is taking time out of their busy days of fiddling expenses and abusing their parliamentary privileges, to either run the govt. or hold it to account!
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The Home Secretarys husband cant be too bright paying for adult entertainment..... doesnt he know you can download bucketsfull of smut on the internet ?
Interesting piece in some newspaper i read today about William Hague claiming about 60,000 for his second home despite the fact he makes over 800,000 a year from his side jobs. Maybe its time this was stopped, all these super perks that MP's get. Fair enough MP's from far out regions need a place to stay in London but surely it would make sense to house them all in some sort of super dorm. Also all this nonsense about claiming train fares....surely the government have people who can negotiate deals for cheaper fares and save the taxpayer a fortune. It seems to me that the whole Westmonster thing is like somebody driving along the motorway throwing money out the window..... no wonder the contry is skint.... Im glad that the SNP are looking a bit more closely at what the money is going on and no its not cos us Scots are tight !
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#217 Neil,
its seems Faulds only took over in mid 2007,
http://www.scotsman.com/scottishnationalparty/SNP-plans-25m-rescue-bid.5095457.jp
"The crisis has led to speculation over the future of the Dunfermline's chairman, Jim Faulds, a former advertising executive who took over in 2007.
He is understood to have been considering standing again for the chairmanship but the crisis is likely to diminish his chances of retaining the role, for which he was paid £44,000 in 2007."
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This might be the decision that causes the first ever PM to lose his seat at an election.
I would wonder if this decision has been taken with an eye on the English electorate who are beeing assailed daily with tales of Gordon Brown plunging multi billions of English tax payers money into " Scottish" banks.
What better way to improve your standing with the right wing, lunatic,xenophobic, anti Scottish English voter than to stuff a Scottish institution in your very own constituency. ( It's the "Gazza's goal against Scotland the best goal ever" Brown syndrome again).
This one will run and run.
Lets go for a rerun at Glenrothes! The man they elected recently there doesn't appear to exist.
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The Channel 4 news interview with Jim Faulds will be available tomorrow on the Channel 4 web site. Their archived news runs the day after the broadcast and stays on the web site for seven days.
Faulds interview is well worth watching.
Neil_Small147
Greenockboy I did state that Darling should be pressed as well to explain why the Treasury will not support DBS.
Can you point me to that post as the only one I can find is were you say Jim Faulds should be pressed for answers. I will be happy to stand corrected on this.
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Has anyone read/heard what David Cameron or the Torys take is on the Dunfermline situation. It would be interesting to see if the Torys would have helped them or sold them out like Labour. Good to see Alex on the main uk news telling it like it is. Is it only the Scottish BBC is anti SNP as the newsreader was quite good as opposed to the mischief monkeys we have up here.
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Regarding the scandal regarding expenses and dirty movies ... i thought Nat Fraser was in jail !!!
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Dubbieside:
#216.
"Why am I not surprised you do not agree. It would however be helpful if you could explain the different bail outs of DBS and Northern Rock. NR needed billions, DBS needs millions quite a difference. Why one rule for one and quite another for DBS."
I have stated a reason, actually it was more of a question which you either did not notice, or did not wish to answer.
The level of debt we were in during the NR fiasco was different, thesedays we are printing money, that's not good for our economy overall. Then you have to take into account where could we borrow from?
I also wrote a statement and also asked another question in my last comment, please, if you expect me to reply then you should honestly actually be polite enough to reply back to what I have to say.
If Gordon Brown and Alistar Darling nationalised the building society, and every other instituation that we class as 'Scottish' or has a huge presence in Scotland then, in post independence, England, or the English taxpayers would be the owners of all those instituations.
What's the difference between the English owning our building society, and other instituations and private investors? Private investors who may be even better at what they do because they appear to have millions/billions to spare when everyone else is skint?
Then you ignored another of my points. The Scottish Govenrment can use Scottish taxpayers money to buy up anyhting, or at least buy shares.
So what's the problem?
If you want to have rant about Gordon and Co then please ignore everything I have to say, but you are only embarressing yourself.
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Whenever an event (such as the Dunfermline) occurs and serves to strengthen the independence argument I always wonder what the Scottish press will contrive as - shall we say - alternative headline front page news.
Before I have a go at predicting, I thought I'd share probably the most inaccurate headline and article intro I can imagine.
This from the Independent:
Government steps in to protect Dunfermline savers
Savers have been reassured that their money is safe as the Government was forced to step in to save Scotland's biggest building society.
OK, stop laughing.
I suspect that the 'Scottish' press will either place the story as the front page lead, with a spin either highlighting the fact that savings have been underwritten/the society suffered 'massive' losses and then quote the same inaccurate figures 60 - 100 million that Darling spouted on The Politics show.
Either that or they will bury the story and instead have as their front page lead a G20 or RBS fraud story.
Either way, I'm sure that they won't highlight the accusations made by Faulds - nor the passion within, again though I hope to be proved wrong.
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Thomas_Porter
What's the difference between the English owning our building society, and other instituations and private investors? Private investors who may be even better at what they do because they appear to have millions/billions to spare when everyone else is skint?
The difference is that once they are sold they are out of Scotland never to return therefore diminishing future tax revenues for Scotland. The difference is all the top jobs, and the top paying jobs are lost to Scotland for all time. The difference is the head office function is moved out of Scotland for all time along with all the jobs. But I guess we should be happy running the wee branch offices. Lets leave the important stuff to others, after all we are too wee, too stupid, too poor to run our own affairs. Better let our English friends do it for us.
Then you ignored another of my points. The Scottish Govenrment can use Scottish taxpayers money to buy up anything, or at least buy shares.
Faulds told Channel 4 news that the Scottish Government had offered the DBS the 25million it auditors said it need but that this had been blocked by the treasury.
Re private investors, the only ones out there are people like Lloyds who are getting billions of taxpayers money to make these "private investments"
How long before the people who "buy" DBS roll their own problems into the DBS books, then claim they did not know it was so bad and need more taxpayers money to bail it out. If that scenario sounds familiar, that is because it has already happened.
At least you would appear to agree that Scotland should have full fiscal autonomy so that we are in full control of our finances, rather than rely on our pocket money from Westminster.
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Northern Rock received 27 Billion from the UK Government. DBS asked for 20 Million from the UK Government. Northern Rock received over 1000 times more than the DBS was asking for.
You will recall that during the NR crisis it was inconceivable that the Labour MP's in the Northeast would let NR fold.
What about DBS in Brown's backyard? DBS was only asking for a fraction of what NR got.
This is a scandal that the people of Dunfermline should reflect on when Brown asks them for their vote at the next General Election.
Freedom
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Brian
Do the BBC know that the clocks have changed?
Glad to see the Beeb still has it finger on the pulse.
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I predict that the current nonsense regarding Dumfermline amongst other things will drive Labour out of Scotland and into the wilderness that the Torys are in just now. The more, people wake up in Scotland to the fact Gordon is selling us out the more will change votes.
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greenockboy
Its started already. Headline from the Torygraph,
Serious Fraud Office urged to launch criminal probe into RBS
On the Herald if you read Ian Macwhirter it looks like he has bought the Labour spin on DBS hook line and sinker. All about what Murphy and Darling have said, next to nothing on the DBS side of the story.
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As soon as Calman is consigned to the dustbin of history the better. A complete waste of time and money. Perhaps Alex can remind Labour of this waste of money the next time they mention Sandy Thom.
Freedom
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Dubbieside:
#228.
"The difference is that once they are sold they are out of Scotland never to return therefore diminishing future tax revenues for Scotland. The difference is all the top jobs, and the top paying jobs are lost to Scotland for all time. The difference is the head office function is moved out of Scotland for all time along with all the jobs. But I guess we should be happy running the wee branch offices. Lets leave the important stuff to others, after all we are too wee, too stupid, too poor to run our own affairs. Better let our English friends do it for us."
You've lost the argument already. If the London Government nationalised the building society, the English would be in control of the building society, Scotland is unable to help the building society (for clear reasons).
Everything you suggested would still happen, even post independence the English Government would be in full control and still capable of barking out orders.
Do you have alternatives that will ensure the people are employed, and that Scotland benefits from the sell-off?
You can quite easily start the blame game, and moan about the circumstances but if you cannot mention an alternative you should stay out of it and keep quite.
That's my personal view anyway.
"Faulds told Channel 4 news that the Scottish Government had offered the DBS the 25million it auditors said it need but that this had been blocked by the treasury."
Yes, it's a wonderful attempt by our Scottish Government to help out, but at the end of the day the Government can not borrow, this money comes from our own block grant. Just what will we see cut in it's place? It's hard to accept but the Scot's Gov can not do anything here.
"How long before the people who "buy" DBS roll their own problems into the DBS books, then claim they did not know it was so bad and need more taxpayers money to bail it out. If that scenario sounds familiar, that is because it has already happened."
You can't answer a question by providing me with another situation.
How about the Bank of China, China has got away with most of the economic crises with their banks loosing nothing compared to their Western counterparts.
A buyer must be found, who would you suggest?
You have no idea who are making the bids for DBS, and are scaremongering with past issues and attempting to justify your reasons for wanting to have a rant and rave against Brown and Co.
The discussions will be between the Government and the other bank/building society, perhaps they will allow DBS to remain semi-independnet? Perhaps not, but should we complain, it's either that or bust. (I doubt that the London Gov would allow that to happen, but they have to play hard ball here.)
"At least you would appear to agree that Scotland should have full fiscal autonomy so that we are in full control of our finances, rather than rely on our pocket money from Westminster."
Of course. But look at the situation, Westminister can't borrow, Westminister can't print out more money so a sell-off is the next best thing.
I am open to soluations, and do not see the problem by having the English taxpayers own DBS, Scotland could buy it back after independence then return it back to private investors (for profit of course).
WHat I have wrote above is not actually my prefered solution, but this is what I feel we can do.
I'd much prefer Westminister to take on DBS rather then a sell off but like I said before I am open to suggestions.
I apologise if you feel I have been rude or tough on you here with what I wrote. I was clever enough to have an accident on the road and my behind is very sore, along with my ribs and legs.;.. so you can see why I am not happy sitting down for long and typing.
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Serious Fraud Office doing an investigation into RBS lol ...... that wont go anywhere. Anybody who reads Private Eye will enlighten you of the cop outs that goes on with them...... they aren't labelled the Serious Farce Office for nothing !!
Sandy Thom ....pah ... get a time machine and bring back The Corries !!
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I have no words for this except maybe... "Scandal"!!!
Scotland needs to rid itself of these low-life traitors. My best wishes go to all the good people who make up the DBS staff, all I hope is that the Scottish government and DBS management continue the good fight.
Saor Alba!
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#235 ubwms
You youngsters?!
Corries....pah ... bring back Jimmy Shand !!
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#184 Neil_Small147
"Faulds is trying the political game, which is dangerous. Someone should be pressing him for the full facts.
Likewise, Darling should be asked why he will not support DBS."
Neil, it is not always the case that dedication to be impartial will ensure you are bequeathed an accurate depiction of events. Rather, it fools.
How can it always be that one side is not wrong, and no one right? (It cannot.) Actually it makes a mockery of the respectability of your posts. No offence - I am always impartial ;-)
In this case, clearly one man is lying. Your post I think merely succeeded in pointed out the obvious, that that was the case. Assuming it wasn't to patronise, then what was the point?
That questions need to be asked goes without needing to be said.
An honourable stance might have been to apply your own knowledge and judgement and give your general opinions of either man. Otherwise have you not merely succeeded in saying that you indeed have nothing to say?
#197 Brownedov
"We could do with aye_write's take on this"
Of course, certainly Brownedov :-)
My view is that there is porn, then there is Jacqui's hubby watching porn i.e. the opposite of porn.
I think this episode just goes to embarrassingly show that "we" have the wrong types of people as MPs - nothing to do with social class, just maybe class itself.
Instead of skilled orators, empathetic and/or inspiring communicators, talented and knowledgeable individuals, we have the unrefined, the loudest shouting, no decorum, no dignity, out of their depth, shameful and cringe worthy scumbags who've taken their place.
There's something wrong with that.
Smith is a classic example. Where's the style? She'd be out of place on my sons' playgroup committee, never mind in government. And they are running the country down there! It's not funny.
#198 dubbieside
"Are you and I the only people on here who see this as deliberately stripping Scotlands assets for political ends?"
No, it beyond bleedingly obvious, that these North British men would do anything and everything in their power to diminish Scotland for their own ends. You have to look at it from the standpoint that we are in a retrospective documentary. View the evidence in such a dispassionate way (that's hard when it's all going on around you). Then people's motives become clear.
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right ... ive just watched the politics show. Three people were interviewed. One was talking very calm even though you could see he was raging deep down. Another was talking in his usual sensible knowledgable manner (and avoiding Seagull droppings very successfully) and the last one was a bumbling fool who sounded desperate that the voters would be turning in droves and kept rattling on the same point (about 4 times i think) that jobs would be safe , branches would be safe, money would be safe although he doesnt know this cos he doesnt know much of anything by the looks of it.
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@ AW 238
"I think this episode just goes to embarrassingly show that "we" have the wrong types of people as MPs - nothing to do with social class, just maybe class itself."
What we need is more Benns (older rather than the younger), and more conviction politicans from the left wing (or any left wing MPs back in parliament rather than that pathetic bunch of Nu Labour conservative-with-a-small-c party).
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#238 aye_write
"Smith is a classic example. Where's the style? She'd be out of place on my sons' playgroup committee, never mind in government."
Thanks for that, and I fully agree. I must confess I still don't understand why hubby should have apologised for Jacqui's claim.
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#233 hadrianswall
......but perhaps he better not mention the dreadful waste of taxpayers money that is the National CONversation!!??
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#242 salmondella
I'd agree to the extent that it's a pity that all sides at Holyrood could not agree on a single mechanism of determining what polity the Scottish people actually want.
In that respect, I suspect that there must have been faults on both sides, but the balance of blame would seem to lie on the unionist side, since the conversation doesn't preclude something less than full independence whilst the Calman remit as interpreted by Calman seems to preclude anything requiring change at Westmidden.
As an off-topic aside, has anyone noticed that all the Nick Robinson threads are currently closed? More changes afoot?
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#242 salmondella
Gosh, how much is being spent on each of them.......?
Anyway.......
#243 Brownedov
Re our fantastic politicians...perhaps this partially explains why such a lot of them get their faces so deep into the trough, with very "off" expenses claims etc. etc. Is it that they know their being an MP (how did they ever get there?!!) is the pinnacle of their success, there is no chance of them ever getting another job as good, so they scheme and cream off as much of the taxpayers' money as possible while they can, as it will all be over soon.
A better MP would have post parliament prospects and some decency, so would be less likely to extremely embarrass themselves, at least in that way! ;-)
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#244 aye_write
"A better MP would have post parliament prospects and some decency"
Good point - perhaps there's a case for term limits.
Before MPs were paid at all, the situation didn't arise, of course. A man made [or was given] his pile before standing for Parliament and whatever else was corrupt, the question of pay and expenses simply didn't arise.
That had to change, of course, and a Liberal government introduced pay for MPs along with votes for women, but I don't believe what goes on now could have been envisaged a century ago when these things were being introduced.
Perhaps for the future we should try to prevent politics being seen as a career by rewarding MPs and MSPs more along the lines of VSO and UN Volunteers - paying travel and a small living allowance, for those who want a career break or, like me, are moving towards full retirement.
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#235 ubinworryinmasheep
"Sandy Thom . . . pah . . .get a time machine and bring back The Corries !!"
As any teenager (With the likely exception of deanthetoryboy) will tell you - Sandi Thom is so last year.
Glasvegas, on the other hand . . .
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I think DBS may be the Rubicon.
Somebody is obviously lying and I don't think it is Faulds.
If the Treasury was going to take on the bad debt of DBS where was the need to sell the profitable bit?
If the treauery was going to take on the bas debts of HBOS where was the need to merge it with Lloyds (and damage Lloyds in the process).
None of this makes much sense and Its starting to unravel
I would be foolish indeed to underestimate what is happening here and indeed to underestimate Jim Faulds who has come up the hard way out of the coal fields of Fife. He's not about to roll over on this one.
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Thomas_Porter
234
You've lost the argument already. If the London Government nationalised the building society, the English would be in control of the building society, Scotland is unable to help the building society (for clear reasons).
Everything you suggested would still happen, even post independence the English Government would be in full control and still capable of barking out orders.
I must admit your reply has me baffled.
I am arguing that there is no need for this to be taken over or "nationalized" as this organization needed a loan of 20million. This would retain the head office and jobs in Scotland.
How would an English government take it over after independence? That is totally illogical.
How is Northern Rock nationalized? It retains it own head office and board members. Once it has paid back the 27 billion load (thanks to another poster for the total) in about 300 years it will still be in Newcastle, still with the head office there etc.
A buyer must be found, who would you suggest? Where did I say a buyer must be found? At all time I have argued for the loan to maintain the present business.
Do not worry about my feelings Im from Dubbyside in Methil, your being tough would not worry the local brownie pack.
I hope you recover from your accident.
P.S. All this is now a done dead. Brown continues to do everything he can to save the union, including another fire sale of Scotlands assets.
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#245 Brownedov
Ah, so if it wasn't for the Liberals we would have done without Maggie and we'd not be suffering from sleaze?
A "No votes for wimmen" party would undoubtedly clean up. Might even split the BNP vote too.
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#245 Brownedov
I see the problem as far too many MPs with too little to do except be lobby fodder and claim their allowances, salaries and expenses.
I hold by my suggestion in #214:-
After a Westmidden election, half of all MPs elected on a party lable get sent home with an unaccountable, untaxable GBP18,000 pa. No salary, no allowances, no expenses, no jollies, no pensions, no "transition payments" when fired, no extra hot air, no jobs for political researchers, the benefits just go on and on.
The remaining MPs would be the useful ones and they would all be kept busy, in which case an increase in salary would not be amiss. I cannot see any point in increasing the salaries of MPs at present when half of them are just layabouts, doing nothing for their constituents or the political process.
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#247 sneckedagain
"I think DBS may be the Rubicon.
Somebody is obviously lying and I don't think it is Faulds."
Well said!
"I would be foolish indeed to underestimate what is happening here and indeed to underestimate Jim Faulds who has come up the hard way out of the coal fields of Fife."
Agreed. Perhaps Faulds should consider standing against Duff Gordon next time as MP for Kirkcaldy & Cowdenbeath?
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#241 Brownedov
"I must confess I still don't understand why hubby should have apologised for Jacqui's claim."
Forgot to say... I think she's said to hubby, like to a kid, "It's your fault, so you will apologise!" Doesn't wash though, it's not, and doesn't make the situation any less sleazy! I don't want politicians that I would dread to meet in the supermarket...
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#247. sneckedagain
It's blatant - anything Scottish is a hiccup, everything being British is better.
That's their plan, the Union at all costs.
When are we going to stand up for ourselves? We're being openly (sh)half-dead.
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Brian
Two and a half hours in moderation on a Monday lunchtime. It's now 1326 and 1052 is not yet moderated.
Could you not ask for the mods to be taught triage? Then at least the unobjectionable would be in front of the viewer rather quicker and the iffy and downright dodgy would have to wait. It would be the antithesis of the Hootsmon, we'd get real arguments rather than one line point scoring.
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Dubbieside:
#248.
"I am arguing that there is no need for this to be taken over or "nationalized" as this organization needed a loan of 20million. This would retain the head office and jobs in Scotland."
You are joking, right? 20 milion pounds would not even be enough to cover the losses, and you are practically assuming that there are no more issues internally that may risk the building society later on.
(DBS will need to be in the positive to continue trading money, they won't get that from any other bank or building society)
I thought the Scot's Gov offered 25 million, so I guess they know that the 20 mill figure is simply nonesense.
"How would an English government take it over after independence? That is totally illogical."
Of course, but I never said that, did I?
I said that if Brown and Co were to nationalise DBS then DBS would be under English taxpayers control post independence.
"How is Northern Rock nationalized? It retains it own head office and board members. Once it has paid back the 27 billion load (thanks to another poster for the total) in about 300 years it will still be in Newcastle, still with the head office there etc."
Of course, but you are ignoring my point. In post independence DBS would be under English control.
Do you expect Brown and Co to nationalise DBS and only give the shares to Scotland...
"A buyer must be found, who would you suggest? Where did I say a buyer must be found? At all time I have argued for the loan to maintain the present business."
No, I said a buyer must be found.
Because I don't believe...
1. The Government can borrow more money.
2. The Government can not risk printing more money.
But also if a buyer was not found then DBS would be nationalised. Brown and Co said they would not allow one to fail, there playing hard ball.
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#249 handclapping
"Ah, so if it wasn't for the Liberals we would have done without Maggie and we'd not be suffering from sleaze?"
It wisnae me, guv. I may admit to being a wrinklie, but I doubt even oldnat is that old!
"A "No votes for wimmen" party would undoubtedly clean up. Might even split the BNP vote too."
You might think that. I couldn't possibly comment.
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#250 handclapping
"I see the problem as far too many MPs with too little to do except be lobby fodder and claim their allowances, salaries and expenses."
True, but I'd see the solution rather differently. I'd reduce the UK parliament to about 65 democratically elected members - say 30 for England and the rest split between the other three "home" nations. To achieve that, England would obviously need their own parliament but how they organised it and how many MEnPs they had would be a matter for them.
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#252 aye_write
"I don't want politicians that I would dread to meet in the supermarket..."
An elegant turn of phrase, Ma'am, and neither do I.
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Thomas_Porter
The 20 million was what the chairman of the board of DBS said was needed. Of course since you have obviously done a forensic examination of the books you will know better.
"How would an English government take it over after independence? That is totally illogical."
Of course, but I never said that, did I?
What you did say was,
Everything you suggested would still happen, even post independence the English Government would be in full control and still capable of barking out orders.
Im sorry but I am totally lost by your logic, or lack of same.
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#255 Thomas_Porter
Thomas, will you take a hint from Alex Salmond. He said there are other financial institutions who are currently still "trading on" who are in a tougher financial position than DBS.
Think.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7970697.stm
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Dubbieside:
#259.
"The 20 million was what the chairman of the board of DBS said was needed. Of course since you have obviously done a forensic examination of the books you will know better."
Perhaps I do have a better insiders view, who knows?
From what I know, DBS was over 26 million in debt, and all banks/building societies need money available to keep on trading(DBS would still need more money, but from where?).
Then take into account the large books which DBS has, how much has the London Government bought? I believe it was around 1.5 billion of potentially bad deals?
If even less then one percent of what was on the commerical books (the bad part of DBS) were to fail, then another hand out would be needed.
Then of course someone on here wrote that the FSA suggested 40-50 million would be needed to be on the safe side.
What would that tell you? That the Chairmens guess was on the best case situation for DBS, and was the mininum of what may be needed, ignoring the possible problems that may arise, kinda suggests and explains why DBS failed in the first place because no one looked at what could happen, despite how bad it could be.
Please tell me, why the Scottish Government offered 25 million, the FSA suggested 40-50 million and Alistar Darling suggested 60-100 million would be needed.
They can't all be right, but they are all far more then what you claim is needed.
Also, how did you come to the conclusion that 20 million would be needed?
Or are you listening to every word that the chairman has said because you both share a dislike for Brown and Co?
I can't believe I am painting the obviose, but perhaps bankers are not always to be trusted?
But on a furthur note, DBS should have been nationalised. The Government has bought the bad parts of DBS, so what was the point of the sell off?
I would not have been suprised if Nationwide managed to walk away with the keys for No10, considering Browns and Darlings negociating skills.
"Im sorry but I am totally lost by your logic, or lack of same."
I was going by the assumption that DBS would be nationalised. It's not my fault if you fail to understand what I have written, or have only took small parts of what I have written.
But perhaps you can explain the above, on why your suggestion of 20 million is lower then all other suggestions, and perhaps you could explain what would happen if more bad debt started eating away at DBS and DBS needed a further hand out?
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#261 Thomas_Porter
The money that was needed was offered.
The money needed could have been put in - then there wouldn't have been a need for any further argument.
:-)
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Thomas_Porter
Sorry my mistake, I never realized I was talking to a forensic accountant who had a detailed look at the books.
How stupid of me to listen to the chairman when you have a much better idea if what is going on.
No one apart from Labour spin has ever said these were bad debt. The governments own accountants said all DBS needed was a loan , they said 25ml the chairman said 20 ml, but I posted before I realized you are a financial genius. Makes me humble to think someone like you replys to my posts.
Do you really think I dislike Brown? I thought that I had disguised that well just like my nationalist pal Derick.
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Dubbieside:
"No one apart from Labour spin has ever said these were bad debt."
Alex Salmond has said that the commerical books were the bad assets of the building society.
"The governments own accountants said all DBS needed was a loan , they said 25ml the chairman said 20 ml..."
The Scottish Governments accountants?
I asked you one simple question, how can the Scottish Government, the FSA and the London Government have such different suggestions of what DBS actually needs?
I also gave you a simple situation, that out of the 1.6 billion of potentially bad deals which the Government bought, even if less then one percent proved to bite back... the DBS would need further hand outs.
Is it possible? True, False?
Am I talking sense, or making it up as I do along?
Please, could a 3rd party enter our discussions and shoot down Dubbieside's nonesense?
I almost forget, is Alex Salmond taking Labour's side by also agreeing that DBS had done very bad deals on their commercial books?
You have ignored questions and are now resorting to petty attacks upon a individual. Doing all this while not accepting that the 20 million figure may be slightly low... or just down right stupid altogether.
Your fortunate ignorance is not a crime.
;-)
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#264 Thomas_Porter
"I asked you one simple question, how can the Scottish Government, the FSA and the London Government have such different suggestions of what DBS actually needs?"
Thomas, because the London Government wants SCOTTISH financial institutions to be seen to fail (and become "UK" ones).
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