'Rip it up and start again'
Entertaining stuff at first minister's questions.
Iain Gray tore up a copy of the SNP manifesto, presumably having removed a few pages first in order to ease the task.
Tavish Scott followed Mr Gray in suggesting that the next casualty from the said manifesto should be the promise to hold a referendum on independence.
But, amid all the sound and fury, perhaps the most intriguing question, long term, came from Annabel Goldie of the Tories.
What, she asked, happens to council tax now?
Good question. What indeed? With local income tax now abandoned for this parliament, will there be efforts to reform the council tax?
The Tories say they'd cut the rate for all - and add an extra cut for pensioners. Labour? They'll get back to us once they've decided precisely what to do, painfully aware that their plans at the last election didn't stack up.
Political pain
It's likely, however, that any reform they suggest will involve rebanding in order to make those in bigger houses pay a higher proportion of the charge.
Will the Scottish Government itself sanction reform of the council tax, now that it has dropped its own proposals? Perhaps on an interim basis pending efforts to return to LIT post-election?
Seems unlikely. Seems much more probable that they'll concentrate on their project to freeze council tax charges in order to lessen the pain for those obliged to pay.
Here's another question. Why didn't ministers lessen the political pain for themselves by advancing a Bill to introduce LIT, watch it fail - and then blame their Labour and Tory rivals?
Because they had come to the conclusion, for a range of reasons, that LIT wasn't going to run in current circumstances.
It is, arguably, to their credit that they didn't pursue the Machiavellian option outlined above, that they confronted the question and took the hit.
Remember that the problems afflicting LIT were cumulative. Firstly, ministers were already committed to spending millions in order to peg LIT at 3p in the pound.
Anti-recession agenda
Which, in itself, tells you that they acknowledged potential problems if LIT was allowed to float freely.
Secondly, those millions become less readily available when set against a relatively tight financial settlement - and one that is set to become tighter once Scotland suffers the Barnett consequential of efficiency savings being imposed upon Whitehall.
Thirdly, the issue of council tax benefit. If withheld under LIT, as UK ministers have insisted would happen, that would add hugely to the cost of the new tax.
Scottish Ministers could not guarantee that the benefit would continue.
Fourthly, the question of collection. Would the Scottish Government be legally entitled to order HMRC to collect and distribute the new revenue?
Fifthly, business opposition. Ministers insist they were ready to face down that opposition, if necessary.
But how much easier to pursue an anti-recession agenda if you withdraw a tax plan loathed by business.
Politically, Labour will now pursue the claim that the SNP cannot be trusted in office. In return, the SNP will pursue the argument that they have been thwarted by London misrule.
In outline, there, the next election.
I'm 
~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~58~RS~)
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Once again Liebour and the Fiberals have been exposed as nothing but mouthpieces of London. Where is the way forward in what either said?
Contrast that with Goldie's Tories, who look to the future and ask how things can be improved. They may be wrong IMPO on this issue (again), but at least they have some sort of constructive view of politics in Scotland - unlike the tweedle-dum and tweedle-dummer leading Liberals and Labour.
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Iain Gray ripping up the SNP manifesto...very poetic, however it doesn't mean anything, everyone in Scotland is aware that it would be hard to get the plans through parliament given we have a minority government. But i am suprised at the Liberals didn't back it, but with falling support across the UK they have to show some independence to win back support after their shambolic coalition with Labour.
I think though as Iain Gray doesn't even have a plan to replace council tax he probably shouldn't pour scorn on the SNP, even though i am a conservative I admire Alex and co for trying while as usual Iain and the Labour party just play the blame while not offering an alternative...
Oh and I enjoy your blog very much Brian and read it every time its updated.
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Brian
As I posted on another of your threads, I was amazed at the similarity of the juvenile antics used by Gray as those used by that well respected politically neutral reporter Glen Campbell.
Your quote about why did ministers not introduce it and let the opposition vote it down?
It is, arguably, to their credit that they didn't pursue the Machiavellian option outlined above, that they confronted the question and took the hit.
That is totally at odds with the way that the BBC reported this yesterday and today. That is the way that grown up political commentators would have reported it, not in the anti SNP fashion that the supposedly neutral BBC reported it yesterday.
There is an old saying "only pick the battles that you know you can win"
Glad to see you joining the ranks of the grown up political commentators, albeit 24 hours late.
Still will not stop the stream of people opposed to the TV tax becoming a torrent though.
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Now that house prices are falling can we all apply to have our houses rebanded?
Andy Kerr's performance on Good Morning Scotland left a lot to be desired.
It is all very well playing politics but you need to come up with coherent alternatives,and as for his juggling of the proposed cuts from Westminster he made a complete fool of himself.So what is it Andy?
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I can see part rationale behind shelving LIT if they thought they would never it through - sort of.
But surely as a key component of SNP manifesto they would have pursued it if they really believed in its veracity, popularity and relevance.
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The SNP are shamless in blaming a lack of a parliamentary majority for their U-turn when they didn't even bring forward a draft bill. As for "cuts from Westmninster" the pre-budget report has been around for months and was welcomed by the SNP when it was made. It's all a fig leaf to cover up a "policy" which just didn't add up.
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Glenn Campbell (he of ripping up the SNP's manifesto on camera) on Good Morning Scotland????????????
Iain Gray ripping up the SNP's manifesto at today's FMQs???????????
The contrived nature of these events is all too predictable.
Trotting out Labour party press releases on BBC Scotland is not news - it is just more Unionist propaganda.
The North Britons at Pacific Quay attacking the SNP is like a dog going back to eat its own vomit - it is the only way they can respond to events.
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Clearly something must be done about Council Tax as the present situation cannot continue .Those least in favour of LIT replacing CT were probably those who stood to lose out and totally disregarded all those who are paying hefty CT bills with no regard given to their ability to pay and please don't mention CTB as you don't need a particularly high income to be not entitled to that so generous are the CTB rates . Funny also how those who criticised the proposed LIT conveniently forgot that CT would no longer be getting paid .
Bringing in LIT would be a progressive step for this country but it clearly needs the co-operation of Nu-Labour both in Holyrood and Westminster and that seems very unlikely given their track record.
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Once again, we see the BBC's same old tacit approval for Labour's infantile, empty politicking.
Once again, the words are "oh-so-carefully" chosen so no direct accusation of political bias can be made.
However, we'll see how "entertaining" this whole Labour/BBC charade looks before the next election by which time the cash-strapped Scottish public will be ready vote for anything that might alleviate the pernicious council tax.
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Scottish regional labour want an apology?
When will the british state, for which the labour party is a tool, provide Scotland, an apology for the Highland Clearances?
TDBs
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Welcome to sanity, Brian. A fair and balanced summary.
Slainte
ed
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Maurice,
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Having just watched a recording of today's FMQs, I cannot but reflect upon the Labour group leader's assertion that the First Minister's credibility had been "shot to pieces" because he had been "caught red-handed selling short Scottish voters" by acknowledging that in the present parliament his minority government has been unable to construct a stable majority which would make it possible for a local income tax to be introduced.
To acknowledge that an LIT bill cannot pass before the next Scottish general election may seem to Mr Gray to be something for which an apology is called, but I doubt whether the people of Scotland will agree. If the SNP government had a parliamentary majority, he might have a point, but everyone else knows, I presume, that a minority government cannot be held responsible for opposition parties' refusal to provide it with a majority for a measure to which they are implacably opposed. Of course, it is all empty rhetoric ("volumes of verbosity", as Auntie Bella aptly termed it), just a lot of huff and puff signifying nothing, the usual Gray over-rehearsed and overscripted moral outrage, which can hardly be said to be worth anyone's attention. Even my lapdog started yawning before he was half-way through.
As for the worryingly serious issue of the slight kerfuffle between Ms Goldie and the Presiding Officer, or "Mr Ferguson", as she improperly addressed him, one might suppose that a summons to the PO's office for a dressing down might be in order, if it were not for the uncomfortable fact that Mr Ferguson may suspect that he would be on the receiving end of it.
As for the Lib Dem leader, he seems to like being embarrassed. At least he appeared to laugh at himself when Mr Salmond cast up at him those words of his rashly uttered upon his election as Lib Dem leader to the effect that Lib Dem support for a referendum on independence was not wholly unthinkable, or some such formula. Combine that with Labour's declared support for such a referendum as recently as last year and one has justification for not taking seriously the call for the referendum bill to be abandoned.
Indeed, the coast is now clearer for attention to be focused on the referendum proposal to a greater extent during the second half of the SNP government's first term of office. Having swept out of the way some business that it could not reasonably hope to make progress on, the SNP has created scope for it to focus electors' attention on the independence issue. The recent appointment of an "independence minister" would seem to confirm that this is the intention. Making this issue loom large, in tandem with issues connected with the recession, is apparently to be a dominant characteristic of phase two of this parliament and would appear to be a sensible strategy. Focusing attention on the issue of Scottish autonomy has, after all, paid dividends before:
"If the pressure for self-government is maintained and electors convinced that this is no narrow issue, but the one that matters most to them, the road may not be as long and as hard as predictions based on past experience would indicate." (The Scotsman, November 12th, 1968)
There followed the SNP upsurge of the 1970s and the first devolution referendum followed eventually by the referendum that gave us the Scottish Parliament that we see before us today. There will be another referendum on the constitution coming our way soon. There can be little scope for doubt about that. Doubt really only concerns which side of the next Scottish general election it will fall on.
When it comes to a vote on the referendum bill, the 2011 election will be just around the corner, and unionist parties will have to decide whether they can face the Scottish electorate after just denying it the right to vote on the constitutional future of Scotland. That being so, it is eminently understandable that unionists are keen for Mr Salmond to abandon his commitment to the referendum, but they must realise, of course, that they are barking up the wrong tree there. If anyone is going to prevent a referendum in this parliament, it will not be the SNP government. That poisoned chalice will be handed to the unionists, and they are welcome to drink from it.
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If a minority government knows that it cannot hope to get legislation through the Parliament, it is surely proper that it admits that fact. It seems to me to be far more politically courageous to admit defeat than fight an unwinnable battle. The war can be won at a later date.
As for Ian Gray's demand for an apology from Alex Salmond, what for? If it is about non-delivery of manifesto pledges, Labour are in position to be throwing stones, north or south of the border.
Local Income Tax, or a variant thereof, will I have no doubt, be in the 2011 manifesto. If labour, or anyone else for that matter has a better suggestion, no doubt the electorate will decide which is best.
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Brian
One point on the bill to have a referendum on independence.
The unionists are in danger of painting themselves into yet another corner. Their only way out is if the SNP drop the referendum bill.
When, not if, the SNP bring this forward, if they vote against a referendum bill, they will go into the next Scottish elections with the charge against then,your vote was off no consequence in a referendum, but we would like it now.
They know as we all know, that any referendum is a win, win for the SNP. They know they have to win ever time, the SNP only has to win once.
Bring it on, as they say.
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"That pledge comes after the SNP administration ditched its flagship policy of a local income tax to replace the current council tax. "
I object to this type of factually inaccurate reporting on the BBC.
The SNP has NOT "ditched" its policy of a local income tax.
The SNP intends to fight the next Scottish election on a policy of a local income tax!
If the SNP had "ditched" its policy as the misleading BBC statement above would have us believe, they would have no policy to fight the next election on.
The SNP still has a policy and it is the same policy it had two days ago - to introduce a local income tax.
I object strongly to licence fee money being used so BBC Scotland can act as an unofficial propaganda wing of the Labour party by publishing factually inaccurate statements such as the one above.
The BBC has a duty to the public to stop acting in this underhand ad politically biased fashion.
The BBc will find that any trust the public may have had (and there can be little left) will diminish even further with this sort of deliberate mis-reporting of facts.
There can be little doubt that should the SNP win a majority at the next election there must be a purging of this malignant cancer of political propagandising within the BBC.
The SNP should have as a policy a restructuring of the Scottish media so that the sort of abuse of the political system the BBC indulges in every day cannot be practiced to the detriment of the truth and to the welfare of the people of Scotland.
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#13 Anagol,
Excellent post!!
I hadn't thought of the timing of the referendum that way. Thank you for the reminder of what makes politics more than just who gets what philosophy into place!
Also what seems to be setting the Tories (well, Ms Goldie, anyway) and the SNP apart from the rest; the conviction of doing what they believe is best for the People of Scotland.
The other 3 parties seem to be more concerned with their own futures, while dressing it up as what is good for us in a annoyingly patronising way. The risk of admitting LIT bill is to be postponed is, IMHO, a vote-winner compared to pressing on knowing failure is inevitable and therfore risking its burial.
PS
Also good to see more names post on the blog than before. Could it be the minority Govt is actually reawakening interest in people?
If nothing else, I don't think the SNP or Tories shall have to work extra-hard to increase their share of the vote, come the next SP election!
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I think that Labour know their strategy as of late is showing some slow signs of success. Remember, the SNP have only declined in westminster voting intention, and in holyrood figures labour is closing the gap with (under Grey) some steady gains.
However, the SNP might start to feel the full impact of their failures to carry through their manifesto committments: students aren't happy across Scotland, and the unionists seem to be holding back the seperatist threat in almost every poll on independence.
One thing is for sure, its a long way from the next Holyrood election, but rather sadly I think Brian is right about the Labour narrative, somewhat negative, but always equivical.
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Didn't manage to catch FMQ's today, but listened to The Grey Man on GMS this morning.
Laughable ! "We don't know what the answer is, we just know that the SNP have it wrong".
Or is that "four legs good, two legs bad ?"
Yup, as a ranting cyber-nat, I am disappointed at the demise for now of LIT. The wife and I personally would have been about a grand a year better off under it. We needed that grand now that she's been cut to 3 days a week.
I feel that it is better to say "look, we can't do this and here are the reasons why". It is clear that whatever bill was laid before the Parliament, Labour and the Tories would have opposed it. That left the passage of every stage and clause of the bill therefore at the whim of the Liberals, The Greens and Margo.
The reality of the situation is that you can't take up the parliament's time voting on the bill clause by clause. You can't be in the situation of the budget where quid-pro-quo's are being negotiated up to the last second before decision time.
A mature realisation by John Swinney and the Government that at this stage, it was going nowhere. OK, let's get on with running the country for the benefit of Scotland and lets not get tied up in Budgetgate Mark 2.
LIT or a variation thereof will be back. It has to be. Council tax is unjust.
There is Nothing, Nothing, however, to stop all Sensible parties realising that fact and starting to talk Now on the alternatives in advance of '11. We all agree that it is nonsense, let's all try to agree what we are going to do about it and let the public decide which way forward is the best on election day.
But Maybe The Grey Man and his serried ranks of intellectual powerhouses from Northern British NuLab will have worked out the perfect solution by then.
Maybe.
In the meanwhile, the business of Running The Country for the benefit of the people goes on in Northern Britain.
Incidentally, Has anyone at the Northern British Region of the British Broadcasting Corporation noticed that the economy is a basket case and we are all up that well known excremental waterway without propulsive devices under Paw Broon and Captain Darling ? Have we heard what The Grey Man has to say about the Great Leader's latest pronouncements ?
Or Maybe he doesn't know what the answer is. Just that the SNP are wrong. Cos Paw says so.
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I'm disappointed that the SNP have put off their reform of the council tax. I'm angry that the Labour party gloats about it. I'm angry that the Labour party would not support it and I'm angry that he Labour party are quire prepared to lumber the Scottish public with it for another few years to come. If anyone owes the Scottish public an apology it is the so called 'Scottish' Labour party.
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Labour Manifesto record
with a massive majority.
We will now give British people the final say in a referendum on the single currency
Not delivered.
We will now reform the appointments system so that by the end of 2005 every hospital appointment is booked for the convenience of the patient making it easier for patients and their GP to choose the hospital and consultant that best suits their needs.
Not delivered.
We want to help the Post Office keep up with the best in a fast-changing market.
Apparently by allowing hundreds of branches to close.
We will not introduce ‘top-up’ fees and have legislated to prevent them.
So what happened to this legislation when Labour broke their promise?
By 2004, patients will be able to see a GP within 48 hours.
Not delivered.
Same day tests and diagnosis will become the norm.
The fastest I’ve seen an out-patient blood test come back is 48hrs.
We will give every citizen a personal smartcard containing key medical data giving access to their medical records.
Have you got yours?
The Criminal Records Bureau will help stop paedophiles and others who are a danger to children from working with them
Not Deliverd.
By 2004 we are pledged to reduce teenage pregnancy by 15 per cent.
Complete and utter failure.
Wansanshoo.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
HEADLINE...The SNP to their credeit do not do Machiavelli....being democrats and knowing a minority party could not get the MSP votes required ..they rightly decided to put the matter on the back burner,no doubt to put it to the Scottish people at the next election. I for one will remember who opposed LIT and also remember the shoddy nonsense cpouted by Tory and Labour etc
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Brian,
I may have missed something, but clearly Thursday 12 February has been declared 'National Clowns' Day!!
I refer to your heading 'Entertaining stuff...'
The day started off with Glen Campbell deputising on GMS and venting his rage at John Swinney - I had to wipe the radio dry a number of times given the amount of pure venom pouring forth from Campbell. It was an exact replica of the interview he did with the FM around New Year - just why is this reporter so bitter towards everything and anything connected to the SNP?? And just where is the evidence of impartiality (in this case towards Scottish politics) that the BBC so stoutly defended in the recent Gaza Humanitarian Appeal debate??
To make matters worse, this clown Campbell later interviewed Uri Geller and asked Uri to make an apology to wee Glen's mammy, Jennifer, since he (Glen) had bent all her spoons as a child - yes, you disbelievers this was a live broadcast this morning!!
Then we find the greyman of Scottish politics ripping up the SNP manifesto in Holyrood and you consider this to be 'entertaining'?? Pathetic. This is the juvenile antics of a once proud, once honourable, Labour Party in its death throes and you consider it 'entertaining'.
I suspect the SNP membership hotline is in overdrive at this very moment! greyman's antics will tip doubtful Labour supporters over the edge (remember this is the Labour Party that voted not to pay Council and Health workers two weeks ago!) and sign the death warrant for yet another failed Labour leader in Scotland.
You could not make this up!!
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I for one will remember who opposed LIT and also remember the shoddy nonsense cpouted by Tory and Labour etc
-donaldbrose
Be fair, the Tories have listed a number of reasons for opposing the LIT reform, and thats more than Labour have done- who seem to oppose for opposing sake.
Annabel Goldie explained that we'd prefer major council tax reductions rather than abolition, mainly because of three factors:
1. This is not the best time for a major tax system reform, it being a serious recession and all.
2. LIT is technically, ultimately a tax on work, which would be detrimental in places in Scotland where there are plenty long-term unemployed. Work should pay more, not less.
3. Council tax reductions can be implimented sooner than any LIT system, making pensioners and single mothers benefit quicker.
Now you can't possibly continue to indicate that the Tories at least are being bloody minded over this.
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Iain Gray was pathetic as per usual. Slightly more pathetic than the Nulb gangsters and idiots who cheered him on when ripping up the SNP's manifesto. And then yet again these pampered privileged idiots wonder why politics and politicians are held in such low esteem. Anyone impressed by that or who finds theatre in it should seek medical help.
And why oh why do we endure the requisite Unionist guest at the end of the EBC's broadcast (which rudely cuts in on end of FMqs anyway) to come on and talk up Gray's performance.
Glad to see head lackey Kerr put in his place by Salmond too.
I can't even summon up the strength to put into words how lowly I regard the school-boy Tavish. Auntie Annabel revamping the Tories must give all us anti-Thatcherites pause for thought. Even, even the vacuous Tories look like they are playing a blinder compared to Nulab.
I don't think the independence referendum should be delayed. I do however wonder if a delay might allow the SNP to show (up) just how nonsensical union and the Unionists are - for those still wavering and havering...
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#19 Chiefy1724
Good post and very true.
Re Or is that "four legs good, two legs bad ?", I think Gray is just reaching the final stage of Animal Farm: "Four legs good, two legs better".
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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I find myself a little bemused (not for the first time) by the antics of Mr Gray and his party.
They oppose a policy, in this case LIT, and then demand an apology when their opposition contributes to that policy being put on hold!
Do they want LIT - in which case they should apologise for blocking it, or do they not want LIT in which case they should thank Messrs Salmond and Swinney for withdrawing it.
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A new blog, so I'll post this again.
Re: BBC and biased news presentation.
PLEASE READ THIS !!
On January 17th I complained to the BBC about the headline they placed on their Scottish website on the story about the Icelandic PM who had responded angrily to comments made by the Labour's Jim Murphy.
Murphy had used the collapse of Iceland's banking-based economy to promote an anti-independence stance and had insulted those nations who had been included in the 'arc of insolvency' description.
My email clearly explained the reason for the complaint was the headline used for the article.
Here is the headline:
'Iceland hits back at Scots jibes'
I pointed out that these jibes weren't representative of Scots at all, but rather were representative of UK Labour.
The reponse from the BBC is remarkable and appears to be a clear attempt at coverup.
Here is the response in full:
"Thanks for your e-mail regarding 'Reporting Scotland'.
I understand you were unhappy that the programme gave the impression that the comment 'arc of insolvency' was a Scottish criticism of Iceland when it was first used by Jim Murphy against Scottish independence.
As you have not provided the transmission date or the time that this news headline was broadcast at I cannot investigate the precise language used. However, I can confirm that when this story was reported in other areas of our news it was described as 'UK jibes' against Iceland rather than specifically referring to Scotland.
You can read the following news web page as an alternative source about this story which indicates that it was Alex Sammond (sic) who turned to Iceland to look for some inspiration from another small independent nation in Northern Europe:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/7836115.stm
I'm sorry if you felt the Scottish news headline implied that Scotland was criticising Iceland and please be assured I've registered your complaint on our audience log. This is a daily report of audience feedback that's circulated to many BBC staff, including members of the BBC Executive Board, channel controllers and other senior managers.
The audience logs are seen as important documents that can help shape decisions about future programming and content.
Thanks again for taking the time to e-mail us."
****************************
Now, the first thing that stands out from this email is the deliberate, yes deliberate attempt at conflating Reporting Scotland with the website headline.
Whether the phrase appeared on the Reporting Scotland programme I don't know.
The second thing that is noticeable is the clear attempt at altering the nature of my complaint. I hadn't denied that Salmond had used small countries as examples of how independence could work.
However, the important part of the email is the link provided as some sort evidence that apparently undermines my original complaint - the link is almost fraudulent.
The original headline that appeared on the 17th of January HAS BEEN ALTERED !!.
The headline now reads:
'Iceland hits back at UK jibes'
Evidence of the original headline can still be found through a simple google check. Yes, the BBC have altered the pages that now appear, but the evidence that the headline was altered is there nonetheless.
Indeed, one of the pages that appears shows all the hallmarks of having been doctored, with the new headline badly positioned on the page.
So, what can we deduce from this?
Well, from my own point of view the fact that the headline has been altered suggests that the BBC felt compelled to act, perhaps as a result of complaints.
However, it is worrying that they have clearly attempted to cover this up and are are trying to suggest that this was always the headline, this is simply not true.
It seems that the BBC, or someone at the BBC, has decided to alter the wording in a news article that has led to complaints. They then refer to the doctored article as proof that the accusation made against them is baseless.
A serious and worrying precedent !!
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One can't expect anything else from Gray as it wouldn't do GB any good if they were able to show that Scottish Labour had any competence in leadership.
Of Topic:
How Scotland could cash in on German borrowing model
"My point is not to argue necessarily that we should adopt the German system but to prove you can devolve borrowing powers successfully. So much for Treasury objections. However, it is interesting to speculate how the lander financing model could work here."
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Brian,
Can we just be clear about whether or not the Scottish Government could order HMRC to collect the 3p variation in basic rate income tax? They absolutely can. The Westminster government stuck that in the Scotland Act, probably thinking that (a) no-one could afford to vary the rate downwards and (b) no-one would be daft enough to vary it upwards (except that idea is not now as daft as it seems).
Furthermore, the Parliamentary Draftsmen probably never thought about the possibility of an SNP administration!
By the way, when will Labour stop acting as if the SNP is a majority administration?
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Bighullabaloo
Until the SNP mainfesto is published for the next election we will not know if LIT will or will not be included. I suspect that this proposal will quietly slip away to the graveyard of unworkable ideas.
Truth is it was not popular, no tax ever is. It was also poorly thought out. That is why it bit the dust.
But to be fair credit should go to Salmond for not playing politics with the situation and stopping when he realised he was wrong. Not that he will admit he was worng, that would never do. But other politicians could learn something from this. Ian Gray was Cameronesque today, rubbishing the government with no credible alternative. Poor politics. Won't win votes.
Wansanshoo
Two wrongs don't make a right. So we for once are agreed on something one lot break as many promises as the other. It is the nature of politics.
However the SNP are setting a fair pace at breaking promises.
What would be a step forward now is to realise an alternative form of local taxation is required. No party has a credible position. Why not work together to find a way forward?
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Re Inmykip
Perhaps you should consider some anger management classes?
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Brian
I have just seen Browns new slogan/soundbite for his next conference.
British jobs for Japanese workers.
You could not make this up, a British factory that has made trains for over 100 years ignored and a contract given to a Japanese firm with small details like where will these trains be built etc not known.
Brown does not even have his usual fig leaf of EU regulations to fall back on, unless Japan has joined the EU without us knowing.
No doubt the unions will still line up to pay their dues to Labour.
Derick will be dancing in the streets of Raith over this.
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The Picture of Dour Iain Gray: a Wilde tale
Once upon a time there lived a fine young man by the name of Iain Gray. A keen student in his day, and blessed with a social conscience, he decided to impart some of his learnings to the younger generation, even travelling to far off lands to educate the poor children there.
Then one day Iain fell in with the wrong crowd and heard of an exciting new idea: the only thing worth pursuing in life was duty. Now, young Iain was a most dutiful young man, and he set to work, dourly focussing all his efforts on doing his particular duty, namely to obey all diktats from his Labour overlords without question. Other considerations, such as 'Is this good for Scotland as opposed to Labour?', soon disappeared from his mind altogether.
Dour Iain Gray blundered on, his meek obeisance earning him favour among his masters. With each errand run Dour Iain became ever more intoxicated with his own duty.
In contradistinction (just for you Brian!), the picture the electorate had of him grew ever more hideous. Nakedly self-serving, spiteful, bilious, intellectually anorexic - these were some of the more printable opinions that were forming.
And there dear reader, we must leave Dour Iain. Blind to the damage his dutiful nature causes him, he is to be pitied rather than disliked.
Eventually Dour Iain will be confronted by the grim picture he has painted of himself, and we can only hope that he retains conscience enough to regret his foolish actions.
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No doubt the people of Scotland will remember who opposed the abolition of the iniquitous council tax at the next election. Perhaps the present administration should allow the councils free rein now,(which seems to be what Labour want ) to rip off the council tax payer as they did in the past, without any curbs to their profligacy as happened under the last Labour administration. But for the freeze of the past couple of years, going by what occurred prior to this, all of us would be paying 10-15% more than at present.
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Gordon Brewer maintains a level of professionalism when broadcasting as does Brian.
These two are probably the best we have at the BBC in Scotland, MacWhirter was streets ahead of both but sadly rarely appears anymore.
Even Douglas Fraser has improved since leaving TheHerald to the point that when broadcasting he tends to stick to the facts.
Glen Campbell however is simply a disgrace to his profession, there is no other way to describe him. If he were an independence supporter behaving in this fashion I would be cringeing with embarassment.
Finally, on the point of the BBC licence fee, I have often wondered if simply buying a large PC monitor and getting rid of 'the box' would negate the need to pay the 'tv tax'.
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can anyone name me a party within the Scottish parliament who have delivered every single thing in it's manifesto complete & no changes in the 3 parliaments since it's return
funnily enough the answer is NONE.
if someone was stupid enough to start ripping up all the labour party manifesto's from the past 50 years, that contained untruth's spin or commitments that have never been delivered, nor were they ever likely to be then it might take a wee bit longer than the time allowed for FMQ'S .
on the plus side you could employ 6 people for a couple of weeks to complete the task.
Sid.
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Update on British jobs for Japanese workers.
12500 jobs would be created in the manufacture of these new trains, note the word manufacture.
It now appears that the total number of jobs assembling all the parts made in Japan will total 500. A further 2500 jobs will be created once the trains are in service on maintenance.
Yet more Labour spin like the delay in the aircraft carrier contract will mean jobs normally sub contracted will be done in the yards. Headline, Clyde welders develop computer control system in their lunch break.
Someone more cynical than me might think Brown realizes the game is up for him and has now embarked on a scorched earth policy. Maybe so he can say it was bad under me, but look its worse under Cameron.
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15. At 4:32pm on 12 Feb 2009, dubbieside wrote:
They know as we all know, that any referendum is a win, win for the SNP. They know they have to win ever time, the SNP only has to win once.
Bring it on, as they say.
---
Not the best image you want to give out.
We'll keep playing til I'm winning then we'll stop.
Maybe if Scotland get 3-0 up in Paris they'll take the ball away and claim a victory.
I voted for a candidate who said he would vote against a referendum last time - does my vote count for less than some one who voted for the SNP/Greens/Margo?
Persuade me that independence is the way forward and I and many will follow you. Act like kids the first time they are left in charge and I'll stop listening.
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#32 northhighlander
"Until the SNP mainfesto is published for the next election we will not know if LIT will or will not be included. "
John Swinney said yesterday:"make no mistake, this government will fight that election (2011) to win a parliamentary majority that backs the abolition of the unfair council tax."
Unfortuantely, for some reason the BBC forgot to quote that line from of Swinney's speech. So you are just another victim of the BBC's politcally-motivated selective quoting strategy that leaves people woefully ignorant about what's been said in the Scottish parliament.
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#37
"I have often wondered if simply buying a large PC monitor and getting rid of 'the box' would negate the need to pay the 'tv tax'."
Wonder no more. The answer is: if you have no TV set and only own a computer the BBC say it is still capable of receiving live TV programmes, so you still have to pay the TV tax, even if you don't have a TV.
Yes, I know. Ridiculous. No one asked them to turn people's computers into TVs, but they are still going to make you into a criminal if they discover you have a computer even if you don't have a TV!
Welcome to Labour's 21st century western democracy! Orwell is turning in his grave.
It would make you weep, would it not??!!!
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#30 cynicalHighlander
Thanks. An extremely good post, and a very interesting link. I'm cross that I didn't think of the comparison myself, since I have been familiar with the very similar Swiss Cantonal Banks for nearly 20 years. They operate as a sort of banker's co-op, with each owned at least one-third by its Canton, and with a very similar Pfandbrief (or mortgage bond) system to the German Landesbanken.
The idea of nationalising RBS (or HBOS?) and converting it to such a model could well be the way ahead, although I suspect London NuLab would be even more violently opposed to Scotland having its own bank again than they already are to giving Holyrood any borrowing powers. Lord Mandy might blow a gasket at the very thought of his chums not having a finger in the pie.
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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Iain Gray will live to regret the tearing up of the SNP manifesto. People don't like behaviour of that kind and there will many opportunities for it to be used against him in future.
But most he will suffer from the albatross of his foul attack on independence.
Too many good Scots think that independence for Scotland is an acceptable view to hold, even if they don't hold it themselves. However, few Scots will have missed the incredible irony of a Labour leader claiming - as the UK heads into a "deep recession" - that independence, amongst a litany of other woes, would ruin the economy.
Today was a low point in the history of the Labour Party in Scotland.
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can anyone name me a party within the Scottish parliament who have delivered every single thing in it's manifesto complete & no changes in the 3 parliaments since it's return
funnily enough the answer is NONE.
-sidthesceptic
I think your rather missing the point being made here, its the fact that this was a key policy from which the SNP fought, and won, the Holyrood GE. This makes it more important when suspended (although I too believe we have all seen the end of this policy), as its accepting that opposition to a key Nat policy is too much, despite the SNP mandate for government.
I will say however I do wish that the LibDem and Labour parties will start behaving more constructively at Holyrood, making concessions and negotiating constructively like us tories have done with the nats on issues where its possible.
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#34 dubbieside
"British jobs for Japanese workers. ...
Derick will be dancing in the streets of Raith over this."
LOL and sad but probably true.
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#35 forfar-loon
"The Picture of Dour Iain Gray: a Wilde tale"
Brilliant! Thankyou.
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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SwanJon
does my vote count for less than some one who voted for the SNP/Greens/Margo?
If you do not know the answer to that question you are on the wrong forum.
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#40 SwanJon
What alternative do we have? More of the same that got us here?
It is like the "music" of the next generation. "How can they listen to such rubbish?", but it's because life moves on and our music is done.
After 300 years I think the Union music has had its day. After 300 years are we so much better than the 1707 Scots, broke and with no prospects?
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#40 SwanJon
"Persuade me that independence is the way forward and I and many will follow you. Act like kids the first time they are left in charge and I'll stop listening."
With all due respect SwanJon, perhaps #15 was not attempting to persuade you on independence with that post.
Could you tell me what concerns you have over independence and I will attempt to explain how I see things in relation, for your benefit. I ask as I assume you would be interested in some 'persuading', though I will try to veer away from the patronising monster... ;-)
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northhighlander:
#32.
"Until the SNP mainfesto is published for the next election we will not know if LIT will or will not be included. I suspect that this proposal will quietly slip away to the graveyard of unworkable ideas.
Truth is it was not popular, no tax ever is. It was also poorly thought out. That is why it bit the dust."
I find it amusing that the usual anti-SNP suspects are claiming some sort of secret victory over the LIT issue.
It's their loss, they will continue to pay council tax and I suspect at this moment of time many who are against LIT may not mind it as much now if it saves then money!
but shall we return to reality?
The SNP have clearly stated that LIT will make a return because they will not manage to gain enough support in Parliament.
How many thousands of individuals, including Labour, Tory and Lib Dem supporters will be searching the SNP manifesto specifically for LIT?
It would be real damaging for the SNP to publically state it shall return and then be slapped back when there is no sign of it...
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deanthetory:
#25.
"Be fair, the Tories have listed a number of reasons for opposing the LIT reform, and thats more than Labour have done- who seem to oppose for opposing sake.
Annabel Goldie explained that we'd prefer major council tax reductions rather than abolition, mainly because of three factors:
1. This is not the best time for a major tax system reform, it being a serious recession and all.
2. LIT is technically, ultimately a tax on work, which would be detrimental in places in Scotland where there are plenty long-term unemployed. Work should pay more, not less.
3. Council tax reductions can be implimented sooner than any LIT system, making pensioners and single mothers benefit quicker.
Now you can't possibly continue to indicate that the Tories at least are being bloody minded over this. "
1. There was no recession when LIT first came into the picture. Did the Conservatives predict the financial situations and then go against LIT? If so, then why did the Conservatives predict the financial mess and fail to do more to protect the country?
You, and the Tories are either making up against arguements as you go along, or you have the ability to see into the future.
2. LIT is not tax on work, it is a tax on what you earn. It's rather typical of a Tory to suggest work should pay more, not less. But what about the pensioners, to old and alone to take care of themselves and have to survive on a state pension?
How about those on low incomes who struggle to buy their children clothes, food and other items, council tax lets them down. Do you not believe a few hundred pounds saved from LIT would help them?
LIT is there to help the vunerable and the low paid workers. It's not suppose to help the rich get richer.
3. Council tax reduction could be reduced quicker, but why continue to operate under a failed system? Perhaps eventually we will be discussing LIT etc once again whenever council tax goes out of control.
I support LIT, but I believe the majority are more interested with creating a newer system, more fairer to those who need it the most. LIT is not perfect but it so far would allow that the most vunerable are not going to be harmed again in future due to crazy rises.
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I am very interested to see the story emerging of Gordon Browns links to ex-HBOS chief Sir James Crosby...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7884877.stm
Quote: "HBOS and Sir James have both denied Mr Moore's allegations, but it emerged on Tuesday that the FSA had warned the merged Halifax/Bank of Scotland group about its business model."
Mr Moore's Comments here...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7885059.stm
"Paul Moore says he was sacked in 2005 for blowing the whistle on the risks being taken by HBOS."
I think we all remember the suspicious behaviour of Gordon Brown in the run up to the HBOS takeover in the weeks prior to the bottom falling out of HBOS shares... remember the party that GB was reported to have been at, where he is alledged to have made comments which triggered the short sellers to go to work on HBOS shares? I noted it at the time on here...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/briantaylor/2008/09/sentiment_and_history.html#comment61
(Ps. I am not sure about the Scottish Bank notes motive I noted in that post... only that there is very likely an underhanded motive of some sort?)
...Oh how I would love now to find out if James Crosby was one of those attendees at that infamous party! Wouldn't that be a turn up for the books?
...I think there are a lot of corrupt goings on, which are still to be unveiled in the saga de la HBOS!
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#45 deanthetory
"I think your rather missing the point being made here"
I think you are rather missing the point here - it's minority government. This is how it works. No surprises. We are way behind other nations on this one, blinded by FPTP as the only one way.....
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The Nats will drop LIT quietly over the next two years, despite what the scottish executive (as is its legal name still) says. Its a vote looser with the all important middle class electorate- Salmond knows that they placed a central role (and still do) in his electoral coalition across Scotland.
They don't want it, its a tax on work, costs too much, buisiness backers of the Nats are against it. Its dead, lets face it. Salmond does after all...
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"How about those on low incomes who struggle to buy their children clothes, food and other items, council tax lets them down. Do you not believe a few hundred pounds saved from LIT would help them?"
-Thomas_Porter
I do, thats why we should CUT council tax rates on pensioners, on single mothers- its a whole lot more effective, more direct, and quicker at this time of recession than an overhaul of the tax system. Besides the LIT isn't destined to be local under the Nats, it would be set nationally!
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Dean The Tory Toff:
#55
The SNP will not drop LIT, how many will watch for the SNP to include LIT in their manifesto at the next election?
Also the SNP won the elections last time round... when LIT was their main policy... and LIT will be their main policy next time round again.
Are you honestly still suggesting it was a vote loser?
The Conservatives are one of the smallest parties at the Scottish Parliament.
I do not believe the SNP, or even Labour need to listen to you guys on what is a vote loser... Your almost an irrelevence.
"They don't want it, its a tax on work, costs too much, buisiness backers of the Nats are against it. Its dead, lets face it. Salmond does after all..."
You said it, it costs too much! I guess you are fortunate enough to earn that much that the LIT does cost you too much.
Typical Tory... you always seem to look out for number one, yourself.
I look forward to the next elections. And we shall see who the public will support. The SNP and the Liberal Democrats and their LIT plans or the Conservatives who want to continue using council tax despite the problems we have now or Labour who are not actually offering the public anything but attempting to take some sort of politial victory at our expence.
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Why no talk of the Presiding Officer reigning in the spoilt child supposedly leading the opposition?
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Dean the Tory, "Labour making steady gains under Gray"?
Why, then, do the polls show a 8-10 point lead for the SNP in Holyrood voting intention (constituency) and 5-6 on regional?
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deanthetory:
#56.
"I do, thats why we should CUT council tax rates on pensioners, on single mothers- its a whole lot more effective, more direct, and quicker at this time of recession than an overhaul of the tax system. Besides the LIT isn't destined to be local under the Nats, it would be set nationally!"
I see, lets continue to use the failed council tax system, and for how long shall we have the benefits of lower council tax before the rises begin?
At least under LIT we are know that it'll stay 3p in the pound because the Scots Government can't increase it higher!
Individuals, families and businesses will be able to work out long-term when LIT is involved unlike council tax.
Has council tax not increased by 60 percent over recent years? It's increased far to much compared to how much a persons pay has increased. Under LIT, the revenues generated will reflect how much we all earn and more importantly reflect the amount of money we have in times of recession.
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Dean The Tory Toff:
#55
- Thomas_Porter
Thats an uncalled for personal attack. Rather sad that you can't handle an opposing view.
The Conservatives are one of the smallest parties at the Scottish Parliament.
I do not believe the SNP, or even Labour need to listen to you guys on what is a vote loser... Your almost an irrelevence.
#55
- Thomas_Porter
This is untrue:
1. we are the third largest party in Holyrood, and the SNP rely time and again on tory votes on budgets, and other controversal areas. Hardly the irrelevence you describe.
2. We are on 20% (and holding since November) in Scotland, the SNP have just falen to 27% (-1) since January in the Feb poll.
That poll would have us win Edin South, the three border seats, stirling, perhaps argyll and Bute. Again, hardly an irrelevence. Sorry.
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At least under LIT we are know that it'll stay 3p in the pound because the Scots Government can't increase it higher!
-Thomas_Porter
The majority of Scots households would be paying more under LIT (local but set nationally...erm..), this is plain fact. At a time of recession we should be bringing foward tax plans to allow people to keep more of their earnings. This is sinceable for a number of reasons:
1. people on higher incomes shouldn't be punnished for doing so, especially when this nation needs their talent at a time of recession.
2.LIT would be introduced and most people would be paying more despite the council tax rises of 60%- this only goes to show the LIT is destrimental to the work ethic.
3."Individuals, families and businesses will be able to work out long-term when LIT is involved unlike council tax." This is untrue, rates are set at the beginning of each year, and all buisinesses have thus far not found this a problem, especially when given a minority government at Holyrood makes future tax increases or decreases in LIT even more unknowable (as the recent budget fiasco proves).
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Dean:
#61.
"1. we are the third largest party in Holyrood, and the SNP rely time and again on tory votes on budgets, and other controversal areas. Hardly the irrelevence you describe."
Thank you, Dean. Here, you have happily admitted that the Scottish National Party have relied upon the Conservatives on many occaisions.
Then you will happily accept, that due to lack of support, the Scottish National Party and the Liberal Democrats can not successfully pass the LIT Bill!
Next...
You are a Conservative, and although I am more right then left (I seem to think anyway) even I know you will never be as important as the SNP or Labour in Scotland. Perhaps in future, but Thatcher is still raw in our minds and Cameron has also mentioned it would take longer to win over the Scots.
By the way I would not listen to polls. Many may not admitt to voting Tory, Labour or even the SNP for the type of stigma they may get.
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deanthetory 56
Your quote,
I do, thats why we should CUT council tax rates on pensioners, on single mothers- its a whole lot more effective, more direct, and quicker at this time of recession than an overhaul of the tax system. Besides the LIT isn't destined to be local under the Nats, it would be set nationally!
Unless I have missed the bit where they said they would means test the cuts in council tax that is not what the tories are suggesting. They want to cut council tax across the board, so say they cut by 25% everyone including the very rich will get a reduction. In other words help our rich friends who do not need it, but oppose a fair and progressive tax.
I for one am not surprised the tories oppose a fair tax. but I think a lot of people in Scotland are shocked that the last few remnants of John Smiths Labour party are opposed to fairness.
I wonder if people like Malcolm Chisholm et al came into politics to oppose fairness.
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Then you will happily accept, that due to lack of support, the Scottish National Party and the Liberal Democrats can not successfully pass the LIT Bill!
-Thomas_Porter
Yes I will because we want to make lives easier now, let people enjoy the fruits of their labour 9and not tax them to hell as you'd prefer apparently). We did oppose LIT because its not credible. As Brewer said on Newsnight "any tax reform proposal which buckles under recession is flawed". I agree.
next:
"By the way I would not listen to polls. Many may not admitt to voting Tory, Labour or even the SNP for the type of stigma they may get"
Just like in 1992, do not underestimate the importance of the shy tory factor.
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#61 deanthetory
I agree with you. The Tories are not an irrelevance. However constitutional structures change, there will always be a "conservative" party which represents the views of the "haves" in society. In a democracy, it's only just that they should have their say.
Indeed I look forward to your party deciding to reverse their 1965 decision to merge with their southern counterparts, and give Annabel Goldie the freedom to continue to develop Tory policies appropriate for Scotland (though, of course, she does have more freedom than the ridiculously trammelled Gray).
However, I don't think you have your polling data correct.
In Scottish politics, it is meaningless to quote the polling for only one electoral system. Indeed, the Scots polling in UK polls for Westminster elections in Scotland is so tiny, that no conclusions can be drawn - as Brownedov and I persistently point out. Only specifically Scottish polls give any reasonable assessment.
While the recent YouGov poll puts you at 20% for Westminster, you are only at 13% on the Scottish constituency vote, and 15% on the regional vote. More importantly, the data from the marginals poll, suggests that you are far from regaining Stirling and Eastwood, where the SNP are gaining ground, as opposed to the Tories.
Anybody trying to predict individual constituency results in the Borders or Highlands on the basis of all-Scotland polling, really needs to look at the dynamics of 4 party politics in such areas. I won't say you've no chance, but there is zero polling evidence to support your hopes.
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"In other words help our rich friends who do not need it, but oppose a fair and progressive tax."
-64.dubbieside
Goodness sakes, LIT is not progressive because its set nationally and not locally which centralises power. In Scotland there is too much centralisation already around Edinburgh, around the public sector. We need to devolve power to our councils not remove it as LIT does.
Besides, what rich people do you refer? Oh, you mean the ones whom studied, worked hard and contribute so much already to our society (through other forms of tax, the death tax, charity work, being money makers for our nation...employers...etc). I say cut council tax now for all, lets not descriminate against achievement as apparently you are suggesting.
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deanthetory:
#62.
"The majority of Scots households would be paying more under LIT (local but set nationally...erm..), this is plain fact."
This is not a plain fact. The worst off would benefit, while the richer who can spare the extra would suffer slightyl mroe tax.
"At a time of recession we should be bringing foward tax plans to allow people to keep more of their earnings. This is sinceable for a number of reasons:
1. people on higher incomes shouldn't be punnished for doing so, especially when this nation needs their talent at a time of recession.
2.LIT would be introduced and most people would be paying more despite the council tax rises of 60%- this only goes to show the LIT is destrimental to the work ethic.
3."Individuals, families and businesses will be able to work out long-term when LIT is involved unlike council tax." This is untrue, rates are set at the beginning of each year, and all buisinesses have thus far not found this a problem, especially when given a minority government at Holyrood makes future tax increases or decreases in LIT even more unknowable (as the recent budget fiasco proves)."
1. I am not suggesting we punish wealthy for being so, you have no idea what sort of numbers my family are looking at loosing if LIT is introduced.
But I will bite the bullet, because I know even after the loss we will still be wealthy and that those on less paid employment will have something extra while services are maintained or slighty reduced.
It's a price worth paying. Oh, what about those incredibly rich bankers... do we need their talent? I could do a better job then they, at least I could not have lost the amount of money they have lost and continue to loose at our expence!
The wealthy should stop complaining as we could argue that they are partly responsible for our situation.
2. Let us look at it this way. An MSP earns, 40k-50k annually? They will now look at paying 300 pounds more for LIT. Do you expect the rest of the country, who earns below, much lower then 40-50k to loose through LIT? C'mon... Even still, 28k is the average wage in this country. Everyone below 28k should escape the 3p and make a saving, the rest of us won't.
3. LIT can not legally go higher then 3p in the pound. It will be unlikily to lower, and if so I do not see business complaining or they can happily pay higher taxes if they are that upset. The problem with council tax is that it's rises are incredibly high that no one can possibly set enough money aside during the year that they know will successfuly cover their council tax. LIT you will not have to worry, you will not even see what you are paying. LIT even hits everyone who works and not just the owner of the hosue who tends to be CT themselves.
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Dean:
#65.
"Yes I will because we want to make lives easier now, let people enjoy the fruits of their labour 9and not tax them to hell as you'd prefer apparently)."
I actually would prefer the wealthy to stop complaining. During a recession, when the wealthy are less wealthy, but still wealthy and the poor and vunerable bare the brunt through job losses then the wealthy should provide for their country at a greater expence.
You got rich off the backs of us, are yo unow going to jump ship now?
Afterall, how did this recession start? The credit crunch? How much have we paid so your 'wealthy talented' people can manage themselves?
"Just like in 1992, do not underestimate the importance of the shy tory factor."
Almost twenty years ago?
Let us return to the present, I will not dismiss the Tory's as I see them as a reasonable party... in the future but not right now and if you want to admitt it or not yuo will have a long way to go.
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#62 deanthetory
"LIT (local but set nationally...erm..)"
No erm needed. Did you not know that when the NuLab wing of your party wrote the Scotland Act, they did so in such a way that the tax-varying power is an "all or nothing" thing. Doubtless that was the main reason why the SNP did not pursue the LibDem variable proposals, realising that Duff Gordon's Westmidden would take poison rather than give Holyrood anything it could legally avoid.
Will it be any different when Westmidden is run by Dave's "official" tories? If not, he'll be pushing more Scots toward the SNP for 2011, don't you think? He's going to have some hard choices to make if he "means it" about being a unionist and is not merely currying favour with potential UKIP or BNP voters.
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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#61 deanthetory
dean, I echo oldnat.
And know there are plenty of other nationalists who get what you are saying.
The tories are usually (!) good at the old common sense and should not be snubbed or ignored in Scottish politics.
Once they drop the Union song, they could be quite a useful balancing force.
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I takey your point in regards to "while the richer who can spare the extra", but sorry Thomas, the majority of households would pay more under LIT, even Swinney doesn't contend this point. The SNP argument seems rather to maintain that any increases are marginal and irrelevent well:
1. if this were the case then it rather disproves your point about it being a major redistributive organ if its rises are too small. This would naturally mean a glass ceiling effect would take hold eventually.
2. believe me, to my grandmother who lives on the state pension, any LIT increase (no matter how small) would adversly affect her, as it would to all the single mothers balancing their books. It is simple in my mind, ogffer up a tax cut. Clear, and would unarguab;ly make life ewasier for the poorer scots your refer to.
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oldnat #66:
Yes the discrepency between holyrood and westminster is rather large and remarkable isn't it. Why does voting intention vary so much between the two? Could it be Salmond is seen as the storng man of Holyrood politics?
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#69 Thomas_Porter
"I actually would prefer the wealthy to stop complaining."
Thomas, I hope you learn this while you are young:
That is NOT the way to treat your high end tax payers.
It is pure, simple and ugly jelousy and there is FAR too much of about in Scotland - we need to get over it.
Look after your high earners.....a rule of politics. They pay more than the rest and are entitled to feel they are getting value for money. Your country needs them and they can always leave.....beware....
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#67 deanthetory
"LIT is not progressive because its set nationally and not locally which centralises power."
You misunderstand the word "progressive" in the context of taxation. It simply means that those who can pay more do pay more. In that respect, the SNP proposals were entirely progressive and in total contrast to the council tax.
I would agree with you that the common nature of it, thanks to the Scotland Act I refer to above, is inherently centralising and to be regretted and remedied ASAP.
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In Iain Gray's office.
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#72 deanthetory
"to my grandmother who lives on the state pension, any LIT increase (no matter how small) would adversly affect her"
But under LIT she would pay zilch, nada, nothing! The OAP tax allowances are set so that they are above the level of the state pension. If she has a private or employer pension on top, then at worst she would pay 3% of that in lieu of existing council tax.
That's why, contrary to your assertion, it's popular.
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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deanthetory 67
You are totally wrong about LIT not being progressive.
Lit is progressive as it takes as it main reason for being, the ability to pay. I know this is totally against everything that the tories believe in, with your soak the poor to give to the rich culture. Perhaps one reason Brown so admires Thatcher and was his thinking behind doubling the starting rate of tax to 20p so punishing the poor.
Yes the rate is set nationally as that is the only way that makes sense, the Lib Dems idea is great in theory but would be costly to administer. However as the proceeds are spent locally, which makes it to most people a local income tax.
Personally I do not care what it is called, Council Tax Ability To Pay Model, would work for me, and presumable the treasury as Scotland would be retaining the council tax. It would however still be fair and based on the ability to pay.
P.S. If you think the torys will win six Scottish seats at the next general election, get down to the bookies quick, you will get very long odds on that.
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#69 Thomas_Porter
Let's say I became wealthy of the backs of the Belgians and came back here bringing the management and control of this fortune with me. But I pay very little income tax, being a good Scotsman and mean in my habits so I only bring in enough to the UK to pay for my Spartan lifestyle. I am quids in under LIT and I don't even have to bring in, and pay tax on, the money I now have to import to pay my Council Tax bill!
Tax systems are very difficult and none are fair for any one definition of fair. Council tax has problems; a)it is limited by banding, b)it is paying for Government specified services, not locally specified services, c)it bears no relation to ability to pay other than richer people tend to live in "better" houses, d)etc., etc.
LIT also has problems; No1 being that it is earnings only.
If the SNP come back with another system other than LIT that produces a "fairer" tax, I won't hold it against Mr Swinney though I'm sure the people that have hijacked the Labour Party will try to do so on present form.
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Dean:
#72.
"but sorry Thomas, the majority of households would pay more under LIT..."
It may be true. To an extent of course, I would prefer to see your evidence to back it up of course.
However the way I see it is different. Currently council tax is paid for by one person and that tends to be the home owner or the person who happens to be paid the most.
LIT will effect everyone, even the children of the household. To me, this is fair, everyone is paying their part, no matter how small the contribution.
Overall households may pay more, but only because everyone would pay, and if you add up for example your father's LIT bill along with your mother's and brother's, then yes.. LIT would cost the household more.
Even though, two of the above people may not even pay towards council tax in the first place.
At a individual level that is where the people save their money. That's the area that counts, they are the ones who need the help and because they are working they contribute to the economy.
They may be the person who picks up your bins, packs your bags at the local supermarket, be the person who mends your car or even do the DIY that you can not do yourself. But hey, you need them as much as they need you.
Feel free to post some links that can prove me wrong, but I believe that the most vunerable, and poorest in society will benefit through LIT and that will help halt the gap between the rich and the poor.
I am not out to take your money, even I understand that it's the small percentage of the super wealthy who invests and creates employment, but I will take enough if that means that a child can have that happy meal at the weekend or a toy now and again.
The world is a nasty place, should we make it harder for others?
"2. believe me, to my grandmother who lives on the state pension, any LIT increase (no matter how small) would adversly affect her, as it would to all the single mothers balancing their books. It is simple in my mind, ogffer up a tax cut. Clear, and would unarguab;ly make life ewasier for the poorer scots your refer to"
By considering LIT is based on what you ear, then how can LIT effect your grandmother when she earns nothing? Under LIT pensioners will be better off, but right now, your grandmother will pay council tax (reduced).
Thankfully you are well off, and you could afford to help out if needed, but some have no one and live off nothing but a state pension.
No security, nothing.
Single mother's pay... 25 or 50 percent of what council tax should be (I can't remember).
The chances of a single mother living off benefits is high, the chances of working longer then part-time is low. Would this type of mother be better off under LIT? I believe so, it's based on what you earn afterall.
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#72
Utter rubbish.
John Swinney hass never conceded such nonsense.
The majority of households would pay considerably less under LIT and in particular those least able to pay would pay very much less.
Some households with more than one wage earner would pay more. Quite right too. All wage earners should pay their share for the facilities they all use and I have no sympathy for those who support the Council Tax because they pay none of it.
I have no idea why it is thought okay for my aged parent on a pension to pay the same Council tax as the house next door with three good wage earners.
What of course will happen over the next few months is that the people will realise that the introduction of an eminently sensible and just system of local taxation which would greatly help the poorly paid, the infirm,the pesnsioners, the single parents has been blocked by Labour , Tory and Westminster.
Don't imagine the SNP is daft.
Clever politicians don't start fights until they know they will win them.
Let the preposterous Ian Grey and his cronies laugh now. They wont be laughing as it becomes more and more obvious that Scotland needs full control of its revenues and when SNP seeks to win the next election on this issue.
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aye_write:
#74.
I do understand the importance of the wealthy, as I stated earlier it's the super wealthy who invests and creates employment. That's something we need to continue.
However I do still feel that when middle and lower classes are struck during a recession, and especailly when the recession could have been caused by the super wealthy then should they complain?
This country needs funds, what do you propose we do to raise it?
I'd happily reduce taxation on the wealthy once the recession is over. Perhaps reduce taxation all around, something like America, and well... untill the next time.
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"You misunderstand the word "progressive" in the context of taxation. It simply means that those who can pay more do pay more. In that respect, the SNP proposals were entirely progressive and in total contrast to the council tax"
#75. Brownedov
Point taken, with hyndsight it is a rather obvious mistake to have made, must have been the deep debate I was an intolocutor in. (ha)
"is inherently centralising and to be regretted and remedied ASAP."
In this I also agree, devolution seems at present to encourage centralisation and increased reliance on Edinburgh. Although some projects have been attempted as of late to reverse this, its ultimately the terms of the Scotland Act that need perhaps change (Insidently, the calman commission ought to help there no?)
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"P.S. If you think the torys will win six Scottish seats at the next general election, get down to the bookies quick, you will get very long odds on that."
-dubbieside #78
I just might, ha.
--
also, I do take your points on it being progressive and al, but ultimately as aye_write commented above (#74),
"Look after your high earners.....a rule of politics. They pay more than the rest and are entitled to feel they are getting value for money. Your country needs them and they can always leave.....beware...."
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"It may be true. To an extent of course, I would prefer to see your evidence to back it up of course."
-#80 Thomas
here is a couple of links that i've been analysing and using to base some facts around:
Local Income Tax calculator (quite useful) http://www.glasgow.gov.uk/en/Residents/YourHome/LocalTaxCalc/
Sunday Herald article:
http://www.sundayherald.com/oped/opinion/display.var.2442331.0.is_salmond_serious_about_local_income_tax.php
Jon Worth blog (rather trenchant in his views, a wee bittie to much for myself)
http://www.jonworth.eu/local-income-tax-just-because-the-snp-are-proposing-it-doesnt-make-it-wrong/
Bob Piper (labour councillor apparently, not really heard of him until)
http://www.bobpiper.co.uk/2008/09/will_a_local_income_tax_work.php
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Brian
Are you not guilty of perverting the course of the English language in your use of "entertaining" in "entertaining stuff"?
I admit I find repeats of "Dad's Army" entertaining, that's why I bought the DVDs. But tearing up manifestos? It's the sort of stuff that "The World's Strongest Man" used to do in a side tent at the circus or perhaps analogous to the TV program where they used to get say a professional potter to make a pot and then they got joe public to make a fool of himself trying to do the same.
Repetition of what someone has already done the day before as "entertainment"? Still there's no accounting for taste and if it gave you a smile for today it will have saved your life for another day. Keep cheeerful 8-)
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hy are so many concerned about LIT taxation, it's a form of taxation based on earning, in case it has escaped the majority
we are head on into a deep recession, where unemployment will undoubtebly rise and the potential of tax collection will reduce significantly.
Why has the Scottish parliament not set up an emergency committee, to deal with what will be the most serious down-turn for along long time. It's also clear that not every home owner will survive this recession, it is also clear that many will face real hardship.
I think we should be dealing with the here and now! making plans and asking questions about whats the best way to tackle this recession and yes I certainly do what to hear more from westminster about, how this recession will effect business and banking in Scotland. The parliament should be demanding that westminster sends a representative to the Scottish parliament, The FM should be demanding at least a weekly meeting with the PM.
It's time for action on this recession and not entrenchment, get the finger out holyrood.
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#73 deanthetory
I don't think it's that surprising. While there are different areas of government responsibilities, then some people will vote in order to limit the chances of their most hated party gaining power in whatever election is happening. Just as many people vote negatively, as positively in elections.
What I find really interesting is the number of "haves" in Scotland who don't find the UK Union a benefit. While a number will vote Tory for Westminster, even Auntie Annabel's rightly lauded performance in Holyrood doesn't attract the same support.
It would be interesting to have a Catalan situation in Scotland - a real Scottish (pro-independence) right of centre Tory party and a left of centre SNP, along with Liberals, Greens and Socialists.
The principle-free centralist Labour Party could then be consigned to the political dustbin reserved for parties who abandoned all principle in the pursuit of power.
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Since the time doesn't like my email, their loss your gain. (cant do text smilies).
"An ode to super man Brown
The one with that risky frown.
We have banished all that boom and bust
But sadly it has eventually turned to dust.
Will this recession ever slow
Or will it take its time to blow.
Oh well British jobs for British workers
O Gordo I do love yore porkers."
Ha Ha
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"a real Scottish (pro-independence) right of centre Tory party and a left of centre SNP,"
-oldnat #88
The implication, intended or otherwise of what you are saying is that unionist parties are not, cannot be Scottish in character, principal or practice. Sorry oldnat but on this case I do disagree.
But I do see the possible argument for a new relationship between the Scottish unionist parties (i.e. labour, tory, less so the lib dem) and their down south arms. The political requirements in scotland do demand seperate policies (to a limited extent). However Goldie gets to sit in the shadow cabinet as leader of the Scot. Tory party (and not just in holyrood like Greyman).
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#87 derekbarker
"The parliament should be demanding that westminster sends a representative to the Scottish parliament"
You seem a little confused derek. Recently you were calling for the dissolution of the Scottish Parliament.
Have you received instructions from the party machine to change your tack?
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#72, that claim about Swinney is just plain false.
Also your definition of "progressive" is bizarre, even for a tory!
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#83 deanthetory
"Although some projects have been attempted as of late to reverse this, its ultimately the terms of the Scotland Act that need perhaps change (Insidently, the calman commission ought to help there no?)"
I'm glad to see that you're prepared to consider that - quite the opposite of what unionist MPs want, if HoC Scottish Questions are anything to go by.
IMO, it's a pity that Calman & Co weren't given carte blanche to evaluate all options from the return to direct rule UKIP want to full independence. Their decision only to consider options which obviate constitutional change at Westmidden mean they will be unable properly "to recommend any changes to the present constitutional arrangements that would enable the Scottish Parliament to serve the people of Scotland better", their key task.
As a result, I suspect that unless Cameron acts very quickly to a granting full home rule, attitudes will have hardened on both sides of the wall to the extent that early separation is inevitable.
Another early start, so goodnight all, but I'll respond as necessary tomorrow night.
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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#91
Christ oldnat, swallow the bitter pill and embrace the real situation, people are screaming out for a collective response.
Ditch the point scoring and at least acknowledge the need to plan and respond to this recession.
Ask not what we can do to rip each other apart but ask what we can do to mitigate this recession.
In all honesty oldnat, this recession has gone beyond party politics and must have a better collective response.
You would be wise to forsee oldnat, that the now! government(SNP) will be judged on it's response as this recessions gets harder.
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Hi, Anagol.
Local Income Tax?
High Earners?
LowTaxation?
Can we have a look at the arguement re LIT and high earners?.
Is your arguement along the lines that a). if we tax the high earner too much he / she will give up all his advantages and go elsewhere or b). he / she will simply sulk and reduce his efforts?
Case c)?
Case a). Might give the impression that the person's real interest is not in doing the job to the best of their ability but in looking after No.1.
Case b). Might also give the impression that the person's real interest is not in doing the job to the best of their ability but in looking after No.1.
Looking around you during this time of crisis, is it not obvious to us that all these "experts" are not quite what they were cracked up to be no matter what the pay, bonuses and taxation might have been.
Are these people at the top of the tree really indispensable? Should they be pampered by enormous pay packets and benefits along with minimum tax rates?
Is it not the case that as soon as one "expert" leaves or is sacked, there are a dozen others falling over themselves to get the vacancy?
If people at the foot of the ladder have to feed, cloth and heat themselves on £10,000 per annum, and manage to do so somehow, it doesn't say much for the wit and wisdom of those supposedly brilliant minds raking in a million a year to complain about a few hundred pounds extra on their tax bills.
Best wishes.
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http://www.angus-reid.com/polls/view/32801/scots_remain_ambivalent_on_independence
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#90 deanthetory
Quite good to have a Tory to debate with on this blog - all shades of opinion should be represented.
btw I'm assuming that you are a man/woman of principle (whether I share your principles is immaterial), and not just a party hack trying to get "your lot" of professional politicians into power as opposed to "their lot".
"unionist parties are not, cannot be Scottish in character, principal or practice."
Actually that wasn't the point I was making - I was simply observing that in other "devolved" nations, they have the sensible arrangement of right and left wing nationalist parties who co-operate at the federal level, while behaving like normal parties at the national level.
However, to your point. Any British party which is "Scottish in character, principal or practice" is betraying it's core belief in Britishness. Were the Conservative Party to be "Scottish in character", it would be betraying it's largely English membership. That would be quite unacceptable - democracy matters.
The pre-1965 Scottish Unionist Party could create different policies (though only to be implemented through the Secretary of State) for Scotland, while co-operating with their English etc colleagues. Goldie may have a "seat at the table", but if she wished to pursue a policy agenda in Scotland which contradicted the "message" required in the rest of the UK, she would get short shrift.
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#82 Thomas_Porter
Thomas, are you maybe mixing middle and low earner with middle and lower class?
"However I do still feel that when middle and lower classes are struck during a recession, and especailly when the recession could have been caused by the super wealthy then should they complain?"
My husband was lower class some would no doubt say, coming from a run down poor council estate in the west of Scotland, his mother sometimes in tears raiding coat pockets to search for any more coins he said.
He is if you like lower class but earns a good bit over the higher tax threshold.
"This country needs funds, what do you propose we do to raise it?"
Are you proposing crucifying earners like my husband as a short term measure. The money has all a use. There isn't spare tenners and twenties littering up my cupboards.
He doesn't deserve to work harder than most and then be penalised more than most, I'm afraid.
"I'd happily reduce taxation on the wealthy once the recession is over."
Thomas, "the wealthy" as an entity as you describe don't exist! They are people Thomas, just like you. How will they FEEL about this treatment? They have done nothing wrong to warrant the punishment of 'keeping everybody else going'. Why is that their burden?
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#94 derekbarker
"people are screaming out for a collective response"
While the UK stays out of the eurozone, it's difficult to see how there can be any meaningful "collective" response.
Even on a national level, it has to be the correct response. Rhona Brankin didn't seem to be supportive of the Universities Scotland proposal.
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#95 bobbishop
With respect, well maybe friendship! You are another one a wee bit away with the fairies ;-)
Your man on £10,000 is as out for No. 1 as you say as is the other example you give.
Further, put this earner on £100,000 and watch his reaction change from "Let the higher earners pay, pay, pay, they can afford it..."
So niave, so one-sided and so rich.
:-)
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#95
bobbishop
Good points about this false argument that high taxes will chase high earners away. As you point out there are plenty ready to fill their shoes and quite frankly I'm more than happy to see the greedy leave. It's not the best doctors or teachers of dentists or lawyers that will leave. It's the greediest.
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I am still gobsmacked by the sight of Iain Grey exulting publicly over the postponment of a tax change that most of his supporters are very much in favour of. I can't quite get my head round this. What message does this send out?
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#101 sneckedagain
Na, sneckedagain :-(
Well, it would be one of the oil industry's best engineers/managers...
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#99
Oldnat, your trying to ring fence the issue.
The Eurozone is a victim of this world wide recession as well as the UK.
The problem with innovation and creation in the market is, there are very few ideas that certain zones in the world have not cornered.The fibre optic revolution is not new, the micro-chip and IT are not new however we just may-well be able to innovate on carbon capture and renewable energy although these areas are not new, no one has quite cornered the market as of yet.
So yes! we should always be looking to expand on business but in the meantime we need to stop the flood of this recession by collective means, the experts are projecting a 4% shrink in the economy, if we fail to put the right measures in through collective means then that 4% will almost certainly become 6 to 8% and over that 5% depression level.
Question for you oldnat!
Do you believe that Scotland is more important than it's people?
Or do you believe that the people who live in Scotland are more important than the country?
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1st post folks so go easy :)
As a student of politics at Glasgow University and Scottish politics in particular I have been keeping an eye on proceedings of late. I come from a staunch Labour upbringing and in the first election I was ever able to take part in (07) I indeed voted for Labour. Of the other parties, the Conservatives and Lib Dems dont register on my radar (I suspect I'm not alone) and I'm open to voting for the SNP. However, the issue of independence is the major sticking point for me in committing to the nationalist ranks.
As a recent Labour 'supporter' however I have found myself cringing when watching the antics of Ian Gray. Some in Labour's ranks might have counted Thursday's tearing up of the SNP manifesto because of the LIT u-turn as a goal scored for the party but David Whitton's announcement that (and I paraphrase) "we dont really have a policy on the council tax" was definitely an own goal.
More substance and less rhetoric please Messrs Gray, Kerr et al!
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#104 derekbarker
Silly questions.
Scotland is it's people (whatever their origin etc etc). That's what civic nationalism means.
On the other hand, those whose loyalties lie with a political machine, give the machine more importance than the people. the great tragedy of New Labour.
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#105 dgp1987
Welcome (and I promise not to go into attack dog mode unless you turn out to be a party not principle person!)
"However, the issue of independence is the major sticking point for me in committing to the nationalist ranks. "
Well it would be if your primary political identity is British. On the other hand, if it's Scots there's obviously no problem, and if it's European or World then the only rational question is what level of subsidiarity is most appropriate.
Hey, I'm sure there are a number of people of your age who are loyal to the constructs of the British Empire, and its exploitation of others. It's nothing to be ashamed of (well maybe a little, or even a lot), but you can always come out of the closet if you feel yourself to be a Brit.
See, I said I'd be gentle!
The construct that the traditions from which you come are somehow inimical to an independent Scotland is, of course, the normal manipulative propaganda from the elite who rose to the top of the Labour Party and want to continue to exercise their power over the British State, and posture on the world stage.
Have a look at the UK Labour leadership, their values, education and background - then look at yours. See any resemblance?
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#106
A perfectly good question oldnat, that seems to have stump you!
I could rip into your 1st reply but hey!I'm being quite collective tonight.
You may well indeed be Bannerman fan and enshrined by the federalist cause but it's hardly 1905, however recessions and depression do repeat through out history.
I'm not sure what type of angelic angle your trying to impose apon the political front in terms of party loyalty or the lack of.
Last night you were a socialist, tonight your above a party status and very much religious. Can you please stop flip/flopping.
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#108 derekbarker
You're right that I was introduced to politics by Bannerman - but John, not Henry Campbell-
Old I may be, but not quite that age! ;-)
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#105 dgp1987
As a student of politics I'm pretty sure you will have a good idea your political intent.
You do raise a very good point about passive politics and do as your parents did syndrome.
I wonder if you feel politics should be part of the curriculum, giving people a broader sense when voting age does come?.
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#105, I don't wish to generalize, but many of those young people (I should add, I am only in my mid-20s myself) who feel uneasy about independence: haven't looked into the subject in any great depth. Some have heard from their "elders and betters" that it is a bad thing to be feared (and wont let that comforting - "this is the only way" - idea go), others are just naturally cautious "holding onto nurse for fear of something worse".
I realize you clearly have an interest in politics, but - again, speaking from personal experience - it can be hard to disengage from the subject at an academic level, and look at this in personal, and altruistic, terms.
I would urge you to keep an open mind, examine whatever non-partisan material you can find, and consider the history and interests of this country (especially since the WW2). May I suggest the McCrone Report and the Adam Smith Institute's study as a good place to start?
Remember, your background need not dictate who you are, what you believe or your vote. I personally come from protestant, ulster-scots stock - not normally fertile ground for the SNP. My family is also immensely proud of some distant and ill-defined link to Davie Kirkwood of Red Clydeside fame; but, my own judgement and research has led me to believe that independence would be best for both Scotland and England.
What I am trying to articulate is: don't willing take on either side's spiel and set about asking yourself what you want for your own future, your region's future and Scotland's future. Then ask: which party is most likely to achieve serious progress on the areas I care about most (and crucially how do they intend to get us there)?
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#108 Derek,
Scotland is the people who live there. That is why the people must ultimately decide the future of their country by referendum. It is also why the unionist side is so scared of asking them! Popular sovereignty dictates that Scotland is the people. Only with the people's consent can they be governed (whether that be from Edinburgh, London or elsewhere - my personal preference being Glasgow).
For centuries, Scotland was ruled by the "King of Scots" not the "King of Scotland". His rule only lasted as long as the people accepted it; as set out by the Declaration of Arbroath.
It is also a commendable attitude to take - as someone with a left-wing bent of some description - do you not wish Gordon Brown would come out and say Britain is defined by its population? (Instead of spouting old worn-out National Front slogans such as "British jobs for British workers" etc ...)
Open your eyes and look at what you are defending: if only Gordon Brown had a more decisive nature then, he would 100% be Maggie.
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Reflective Piece on Friday Morning.
Posters to the blog Have been getting more diverse recently, which can only be a good and positive thing for Us all. Particular welcomes to deanthetory and dgp1987 in the last few days.
You can tell who the party hacks are, you should be able to tell who the nutters are. Sorry, that should read nutter IS :} No names, you all know who I'm talking about.
I make no bones about it. I am a member of the SNP and a self-proclaimed ranting cyber-nat.
However, there are two things that contributing to this blog has revealed to me.
Firstly, there are men and women of good intent and sane and rational approach on all sides of the debate. There are more things that unite us than divide us on a day-to-day level. (Other than the Act of Union....:} )
Secondly, that the process of debate and counter-arguement that we carry out on this blog have shown me personally that actually, there are areas of policy where I don't agree with my party. But that's enough to make me want to do more to work from within to reach a consensus.
Its also shown me, particularly in the past few weeks, with the Budget and the LIT, that there seems to have been a bit of a phase-change recently. The SNP, now working in minority government, are prepared to do an Obama. Hey, sorry, we screwed up. Slate clean ? Everybody happy ? Lets try again. A maturing of the party from a party of protest to a party of genuine government. Its a Good Thing.
The problem that we have always had in Holyrood and to a certain extent in Cardiff is that NuLab have always seen us as a Security Policy. In the event of Tory Government, Break Glass and have powerbases from which to strike. The best and brightest of NuLab don't fight for Holyrood seats, they fight for Westminister seats.
As a result, the NuLab contingents in the "devolved" governments are intellectually weak, hackled by their pasts and their "political development" in the old stalinist one-party states of West of Scotland Local Government.
Iain Grey is a joke. An embarassment to Scotland, an embarassment to the socialist tradition. You can hear several cemeteries worth of revolving graves from here.
It's Friday. Another week in Scottish Politics, another week of brilliant bloggery from all. I hope that there is an archive somewhere so the we can all look back in our dotage and point to our contributions to the debate on a Free and Independent Scotland. Or not, as the case may be.
Good weekend all.
Post or reactive moderation for all except Cbeebees, please !
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#85 deanthetory
Thanks for the links, especially the Glasgow one.
Using the left menu, you can see that Glasgow Council Tax for 2008/9 ranges from GBP 808.67 to GBP 2,426.00. On the HMRC website, you'll see that the personal allowances for 2008/9 were GBP 6,035 for individuals under 65 and GBP 9,030 for most pensioners.
As the basic state pension for 2008/9 was GBP 4,716.40, a single pensioner would need an additional personal pension of GBP 4,313.60 before being liable to LIT at all, and an additional pension of GBP 10,000.00 (a total income of 14,716.40) would result in an LIT charge of GBP 255.89 - barely a quarter of the lowest Council Tax charge.
For pensioner couples the situation is much more complex, but most would need to have a total pension income of about GBP 40,000 before paying more than the lowest Council Tax charge.
For the under 65s, earnings of GBP 33,000.00 are needed before paying as much as the lowest Council Tax charge and GBP 87,000.00 before paying more than the highest Council Tax charge. Where a household has multiple earners, all are entitled to the personal allowances so the "joint" income figures to reach these levels are significantly higher.
Yes, it could be made fairer still if "starting rate" and "savings income" were not specifically excluded by the Scotland Act, but that the change to LIT would not be popular with most Scots is risible.
Off out now, but back tonight, I hope.
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Re #94 Rabidbarker
'Ditch the point scoring and at least acknowledge the need to plan and respond to this recession.
Ask not what we can do to rip each other apart but ask what we can do to mitigate this recession.
In all honesty oldnat, this recession has gone beyond party politics and must have a better collective response.
You would be wise to forsee oldnat, that the now! government(SNP) will be judged on it's response as this recessions gets harder.'
I try to make it a policy to ignore the party clones, but this is just too much.
Any chance you can have a word with your mate Iain Gray about ditching point scoring, like tearing up party manifestos
As for ask not what we ... really? ... you want to paraphrase JFK ... really? .... JFK - Scottish Labour ... is it just me that can see the difference??
The recession has gone past party politics - once again, really? perhaps you can mention that to Iain Gray, who can mention it to Jim Murphy who can mention it to whatever low-level party worker he reports to, who can mention it to the tea lady in No.10 who can let GB know while he's having a KitKat and some nice earl grey.
The SNP will be judged on it's response to the recession - yes, I'm sure it will, but unfortunately for you, the Labour party will be judged more harshly as they are the architects and they are the Westminster party that has the power to mitigate it.
GB has screwed the pooch on the economy, and everyone knows it. While the Labour front bench cannot find enough time to put down their expenses claims and get off their large, pampered rear ends to sort it, you want everyone else to sort it out for them, without any real power to make the changes required.
You don't want a collective response, you want collective blame.
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#86 handclapping:
But tearing up manifestos? It's the sort of stuff that "The World's Strongest Man" used to do in a side tent at the circus...
...and it's the sort of stuff that "The World's Strangest Man" now does in Holyrood. I wouldn't be surprised if he gave himself a nasty paper cut as he did it.
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Brian,
Interesting clip (from a few years past) on Beeb radio this morning where Pa Broon was waxing lyrical about the wonderful work that had been done by the City spivs in London Banks to garner it such a stellar reputation.
Now he has put himself forward as their 'hangman'!!
Massive U-turn, greyman and 'lessthanhandy andy'?? Seems the winner for that title resides in your own front room!!
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"Here's another question. Why didn't ministers lessen the political pain for themselves by advancing a Bill to introduce LIT, watch it fail - and then blame their Labour and Tory rivals?
It is, arguably, to their credit that they didn't pursue the Machiavellian option outlined above, that they confronted the question and took the hit."
Why is that "arguable"?
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Re116
Googlehoo I agree with the need to ignore the party clones of which there are many.
However the real point here is that neither party has come across with a Scottish recession beating plan. I know there are restraints on what the scottish parliamnet can do but instead of continually moaning about that why not just get on and do what can be done.
Very little effort and imagination has gone into thinking this through form our politicians. Too busy playing party politics, one lot balming Westminster for everything the other blaming the SNP.
When will someone realise blame solves nothing and is just an excuse for covering a lack of original thought.
I suppose it will be left to the voters but what a wasted opportunity.
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Re 114
It is okay to point out the benefits to those who will pay less, but given that the same amount of money needs to be raised who will pay more?
Basically LIT is a tax on work, there will be large numbers of working people made much worse off. It will be an increase in the tax burden for the same group always hit. hardly revoultinary.
Anyway irrelevant because it is not going to happen anytime soon.
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117. At 10:18am on 13 Feb 2009, forfar-loon wrote:
#86 handclapping:
But tearing up manifestos? It's the sort of stuff that "The World's Strongest Man" used to do in a side tent at the circus...
...and it's the sort of stuff that "The World's Strangest Man" now does in Holyrood. I wouldn't be surprised if he gave himself a nasty paper cut as he did it.
*******
He did look very pleased with himself didn't he? Do you think he had to practice lots in his office beforehand? I had much fun playing back the clip repeatedly in slowmo to try and detect a pre-torn edge before his big moment!
fs
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Quick thought: several people have pointed out that LIT is a tax on work (aka "a bad thing"). I would just like to point out that IT (i.e. income tax) is also a tax on work.
Are you all suggesting we do away with IT and expand the Council Tax to make up the shortfall? Hmmm...
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Re 98- aye right
An excellent post, summarises the point perfectly.
ThomasPorter
The Scots can be characterised by agreeing that all should be given the same opportunity in life and a safety net for those who fall. Collectively we can achieve more than we can alone, we value a sense of community and what that brings.
However that does not and never has meant that those who work hard and earn more as a result should be disproportionally penalised for the benefit of those who make different choices. We should have equality of opportunity, a vital principle, but we can never have equality of outcome.
It would be an entirely wrong message to increase taxation on this group of people. During a recession we need to encourage people to work harder, not less. Remember middle incomes already pay more than those who are lower paid.
Work must pay, it is perfectly right that those who work harder get paid more. That is not a tory nor labour nor SNP principle, but a simple truth.
LIT would hit those couples who both work hard to raise their family, both earning just above the benefit threshold. Typically those are the people that governments always hit. Hard working families.
Anyway it is not an option for the foreseeable future, we should concentrate on the effect of the council tax freeze, all the servioces that are to be cut. Everything has a price. £13m in Highland, education and leisure this time, it was road maintenance last year, which is never a saving just another way of passing costs to future generations, just as bad as PFI.
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Into this friendly rivalry between Council Tax and LIT, might I insert a third option - Community Ground Rent, also known as Land Value taxation....?
Locally determined and collected, of course, and by those locally elected and directly accountable to their local electors...."Ah ken whaur ye stay!" ;-)Slainte!
ed
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#121, northhighlander
Your point seems predicated upon the notion that people don't want to pay taxes, or at least want to pay as little as possible.
Personally, I am 'happy' to pay my FAIR share in order to ensure the continuing priovision of the public services which we all enjoy.
At this stage in my life, neither I nor anyone in my immediate family makes use of local authority education - but I am proud to know that some part of my Council tax is going towards the education of the youth of today.
In a way that national government can never hope to achieve, the results of LOCAL taxation is highly visible to all residents in a locality - and, with councillors also being direct consumers (and accessible to their constituents), they should care more than faceless party placemen/women at Holyrood and, to an even greater extent, Westminster).
In any change to taxation raising methodolgy, there will be winners and losers - notwithstanding the idea that, if there is an improvement in service provision, even the losers are winners! - but the underlying fairness of an earnings tax is inescapable.
If you earn more, you pay more (in cash terms) but the proportion of earnings paid in tax under LIT remains constant. At the same time, if you earn more, you keep more (in cash terms), so there is always the incentive to earn more...
Although communist ideology is out of fashion, the line about transfers from the able to the needy is surely what ALL government should be about.
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Re #120 northhighlander
While I am happy to look for direction from both the Scottish Government and the Westminster Government and level criticism where I think it is due to either group, I think we must look to Westminster for the bulk of the resolutions.
The key mechanisms used by most governments in this recession are interest rate reductions, borrowing to fund projects / prop up industries and lastly, quantitative easing. None of these are available to the Scottish parliament, so while I do expect to see them coming forward with ideas, I am aware that the big-ticket items are only within the purview of Westminster, and so my expectation of their contribution is set accordingly.
Likewise, we are all aware that the lack of credit facilities for many businesses is a major issue, and once again, the Scottish Government has very little it is able to do directly to push the banks to ease the flow of credit, either through incentives or through legislation.
Before I start to sound like an SNP apologist, let me be clear that I do not think that everything they do is right, just because .... I differ from them on a few of their main policies, and would be keen, as some others on this blog would, to see other pro-independence parties so that I could chose one which more closely meets my own political views.
The bottom line for me is, while I want to see more out of the SNP-led administration and I would be very happy to see them working in co-operation with other parties to put forward new ideas, I am all too aware that having less than 50% of Scotland's GDP as a budget and no way to access real borrowing without Westminster Labour's approval (I don't buy into PFI), it's like fighting with one hand tied behind your back.
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aye_write:
#98.
"Thomas, are you maybe mixing middle and low earner with middle and lower class?"
Yes but you know what I mean ;-).
"Are you proposing crucifying earners like my husband as a short term measure. The money has all a use. There isn't spare tenners and twenties littering up my cupboards.
He doesn't deserve to work harder than most and then be penalised more than most, I'm afraid."
Quite strong words for the small increase in tax that they may face.
It's none of my business but if your husband has millions in the banks, could they not spare an extra few K towards tax? or does your husband happen to earn several hundred thousand? Could they not give up a small amount towards tax?
Hospitals are not free, schools are not free. How do you propose we raise the funds to allow all of that and more in this country to continue?
I am all ears to other ideas.
"Thomas, "the wealthy" as an entity as you describe don't exist! They are people Thomas, just like you. How will they FEEL about this treatment? They have done nothing wrong to warrant the punishment of 'keeping everybody else going'. Why is that their burden?"
People? They are not people, we are all drones, contributing to society and the world to allow the system that we live under to continue. We are numbers, statistics...
Because, we are one country, we live here, eat here and survive here. Should we not stick together and do what we can so we all live out this recession? Keeping everyoen going, yes, because everyone else especailly those being hit by the credit crunch are people... people, like you said. People not responsible for this situation, people who want their children to have the best education, safe streets at night and a doctor to see them when they are ill.
Should we allow people to suffer when there could be another way to raise funds?
I would prefer an American tax system, kinda, but at this moment of time I do not see how we can raise funds (being in the state that we are).
Hey, I am all ears. How do we raise the funds for this country at this moment of time, please?
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northhighlander:
#120.
"Googlehoo I agree with the need to ignore the party clones of which there are many.
However the real point here is that neither party has come across with a Scottish recession beating plan. I know there are restraints on what the scottish parliamnet can do but instead of continually moaning about that why not just get on and do what can be done."
Please NorthHighlander, could you write what you feel the Scottish Parliament could do more?
I would be interested to hear what can be done.
I would also like to point out, considerign you believe that more can be done, has Westminister neglected Scotland because they are the overall leaders of this country?
If more can be done, why has Westminister not done it already?
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northhighlander:
#124.
I do agree with everyone, even you ;-) that we should not tax the rich.
However since unemployment is rising, and tax intake will be reduced for the years to come, shall we watch as services are cut or is there some way in which we can raise the funds, extra funds, to pay for the services that we all need, regardless of wealth.
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Handclapping (79),
Yet another reason to consider Community Ground Rent, as it's well known that you can shift bank accounts, money, jewellery, gold bars, etc. anywhere, but you can't shift the Land. Under current arrangements, though, you can own huge tracts of it without needing to ever set foot on it or pay tax on it.... e.g. the absentee-owned Perthshire springs...All that said, the Land isn't going anywhere...
Time for change
ed
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126 The_Forfarian
"#121, northhighlander
Your point seems predicated upon the notion that people don't want to pay taxes, or at least want to pay as little as possible."
If I may butt in. What an assertion!
Because I disagree with callously taxing those 'greedy pig' high wage earners, does not even remotely imply that I don't want to contribute tax. That's an awful thing to say, and dangerous, very dangerous.
In an independent Scotland, my family would be worse off but we've squared it by seeing it as an investiment into the setting up of new Scotland.
SCOTLAND IS GOING TO MAKE A MASSIVE MISTAKE IF IT BLATENTLY TRIES TO LIVE OFF ITS HIGHER WAGE EARNERS.
"Although communist ideology is out of fashion, the line about transfers from the able to the needy is surely what ALL government should be about."
That doesn't work! It encourages an 'I deserve a handout' culture.
Don't be needy, earn.
Seriously, if it becomes outdoubtable that an independent Scotland will dive down this route of the cash cow rich are the answer to our problems...
I MIGHT VOTE AGAINST INDEPENDENCE!
Really I thought we were ready in this nation to run things ourselves. Why so many prove me wrong?
It's very worrying.
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Patty (111)
Oxymoronic???;-)
ed
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Northhighlander,
Neither? Which two did you have in mind?;-)
ed
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Watch this space! for a laugh...
:-O
ed
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#128 Thomas_Porter wrote:
Thomas I must just come back one last time!
"Quite strong words for the small increase in tax that they may face.
It's none of my business but if your husband has millions in the banks, could they not spare an extra few K towards tax? or does your husband happen to earn several hundred thousand? Could they not give up a small amount towards tax?"
Millions! You can't have meant that so you must be wanting me to come back, dispute it and then say you didn't mean my husband but millionaires instead?
And not 'strong words', but very accurate. Heed them.
Husband already pays way over in tax what the average earner takes home each month. So he should pay even more? You are right, he is not working for us, he is working for the rest of you in his country - he has ALREADY been doing that, don't you see?
"Hospitals are not free, schools are not free. How do you propose we raise the funds to allow all of that and more in this country to continue?"
"People? They are not people, we are all drones, contributing to society and the world to allow the system that we live under to continue. We are numbers, statistics..."
When you have children, are you going to tell them they are a drone? In that analogy who needs the best education, hospitals etc.? Sounds like each drone is expendable and need not be education any higher than another...
"Because, we are one country, we live here, eat here and survive here..." etc.
The rest of your argument is a tad one sided. "If we don't over tax those rich, we will all suffer..." I'm not appreciating the guilt trip (see earlier as to current and previous tax contributions!)
No. You are right, a fairer tax system is required. Emphasis on FAIRER. We don't hate LIT as it would be fairer for quite a few folk. Plus we do hate the council tax as it is not (see folk paying heaps less because their earnings and means are less transparent). We accept no tax system is likely to be perfectly fair so are happy to live with that.
But what we do abhor is this notion that, as we have done well, we should be screwed for it. Why should we be? Is it not petty-minded, pure, ugly jealousy? I say it is and it could turn out to be the poison of Scotland.
IS IT NOT THE POISON OF SCOTLAND?
Beware. Please beware.
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"If we don't over tax those rich, we will all suffer..."
-#128 Thomas_Porter
Thomas, if we overtax the rich as you would like (which smells of classist warfare, something Scotland badly needs to overcome...) then we would all definately be poorer!
There would be no major financial centre at Edinburgh which generates thousands of jobs, monies for the Scots economy (but I know this may be unpopular given the banking secotrs culpability over recession). We Scots rely on keeping the rich wealth creators, thats perahps why Salmond agreed to the Tory buisiness tax cut a while ago.
I 'm not saying LIT is all bad, but a better alternative is required, as for me council tax keeps local taxation local and way from the increasing gravity pull of edinburgh, but also LIT taxes work- making it a disensentive to work rather than live on benefits (to make a specific point).
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http://www.order-order.com/2009/02/canada-best-placed-to-weather-global.html
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#133,
Ed - I don't believe so - you need to balance the two.
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#132, aye_write:
"Don't be needy, earn."
Just in case you didn't appreciate the allusion re able and needy:
"From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs."
So if you dismiss the needy, it means that unless YOU are a master baker, you should be denied the right to eat bread; the fact that bakers can produce loaves is irrelevant.
Unless YOU are a housebuilder, you should be denied shelter (unless a cave is handy); if you can't build your own home, you would have none.
Unless YOU can drive a car, you should be denied access to any form of transport; public transport should be abandoned.
To list all similar examples would be an endless task.
The principles of civilisation are built upon the notion that people do what THEY are good at and that society's needs as a whole are met.
"Don't be needy, earn."
So you dismiss - with a vicious and callous contempt - all those unfortunates who are UNABLE to provide for themselves, presumably believing that (if society doesn't provide for them) they will either undergo a miraculous cure (after all, they are all malingerers) or else die (saving society money).
You presumably make no use of the state education system, of the National Health Service, or indeed of any public service since - by your own admission - if you need a service, it is incumbent upon YOU to pay for it yourself.
--
You are not a nice person.
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#137 deanthetory
dean, you rather cheer me up, sorry!
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Great Britain "44th best placed" in the world (of developed nations) - see above link.
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The abandonment of LIT seems to have opened a bit of a can of worms around the whole concept of taxation generally.
Here's an interesting resource that sums a lot up quickly.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_rates_around_the_world
I am particularly fascinated by our oil-rich neighbours across the North Sea, and also by the large number of countries where a "municpal" or "provinical" element of taxation exists.
I am absolutely against an American model, where, even people of what we may consider to be very average earnings will employ practicioners to evade or even avoid taxation.
Don't Soak The Rich. In fact, don't Soak anybody. Taxation must be fair. Look what happened last time there was Unfair Taxation. Not that I am suggesting in any way whatsoever that we rebel against London Rule :}
Bottom line: The concept of local taxation in addition to national taxation is a well established one in a large number of prosperous nations with a large number of models to examine for Scotland's Future.
We all agree that Council Tax is flawed and must go.
(Except Northern British NuLab who agree that whatever the answer is, it's not what the SNP say. Ever. Baaaaaaaa)
Other countries make a Local Tax work - so let's go ask them what works, what doesn't and agree what will be best for the future of Scotland. We've 2 years to come up with an answer acceptable to all Sensible parties.
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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Dean (137),
Only just barely local, since the method and the general levels are heavily prescribed, and the bulk of (so-called) "local Government" revenue (87% recently in the case of D+G Council) is doled out from the centre...As to the centralised nature of it all, some thoughts.Slainte!
ed
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Patty (139),
There is a world of philosophical discussion available in just those two terms. In short, I incline to the view that, in the final analysis, it is in everyone's 'personal' best interest to act 'altruistically' but, being American, I have difficulty with anything involving irony....
;-)
ed
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"I am particularly fascinated by our oil-rich neighbours across the North Sea, and also by the large number of countries where a "municpal" or "provinical" element of taxation exists."
-Chiefy #1724
I absolutely agree, what I fear is that the current direction of tax reforming seems to threaten Scotland with a replication of the great English dilemma- the London pull factor results in a consentratuion of investment in England around a narrow section of the nation (as a result 13% of the entire UK pop. live in greater London!)
Scotland must avoid reciprocating this around Edinmbugh as it would literally decimate rural burughs norhwards, and the highlands and islands.
But as for copying northern practices concenring local taxation, this if possible might be desirable, but just remember that Scotland, and indeed the UK generally has a cultural divergance that would have to be overcome (i.e. large proportions of long-term unemployed, not so much a problem for nscandinavian tax systems to factor in you see).
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Chiefly,
1. It would be better to say, "avoid, or even evade," since the first is generally legal and the second illegal...2. I don't think the paying of experts in avoidance is by any means "American" as it is so widespread as to be virtually universal. It is, naturally more common amongst those with much to avoid (and thus most able to afford the 'best' advice)
3. Let's face it - probably every one of us in this discussion belongs in the top twenty percent of the Earth's folk who are enjoying the 'benefits' of eighty percent of the annual resource harvest. Most of us are probably in the top half (or quarter) of that 20%. I certainly am, and I don't expect many of us would voluntarily relinquish our place at the table....
4. Most of our pets live better than half the world's children.
Peace and Fair Shares
ed
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#140 The_Forfarian
Sigh (but not in an unkind way :-),
I knew you would come back with this.
On the contrary, I am nice. (I'm honest too!) Even in the face of people who hate me :-)
I do not take umbrage with your post. You ran away with my point a little....!
Look, my point was a general point to match your...general point!
Lets see:
"the line about transfers from the able to the needy is surely what ALL government should be about"
and mine:
""Don't be needy, earn."
Do I not believe in helping those who hit hard times? Of course I do! You can't assume from my comment that I would not.
If you were 'unable', I would agree I/society should help you.
I would caution a look at the definition of 'unable' of course. Some find themselves 'unable' but where there is much they can do about that they should be encouraged.
I would indeed not be an nice person if I felt helping them endlessly would be good for them ultimately. Actually I value people more than that. I always go back to my children, doing everything for them is not doing them a favour.
To revisit your expanded point,
"From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs."
are you not just talking about a society conscious of being one? I do feel we ought to accommodate our common virtues and common requirements, it's obvious. No one argues with having a social conscience.
Should that socially conscious society punish/persecute the rich in those high aims? How can you have one but then also work the other? Are the rich then therefore 'less equal'?
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#143 Chiefy1724
"Other countries make a Local Tax work - so let's go ask them what works, what doesn't and agree what will be best for the future of Scotland. We've 2 years to come up with an answer acceptable to all Sensible parties."
An excellent point. I applaud it :-)
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Speaking of the "American model", a Dickensian visit from The Ghost of Prosperity Past
Chilling (and not in the sense of "cool")
ed
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As Iain Gray tore up the manifesto to cheers and jeers from his Labour backbenchers, who have become a mightily bellicose troop in the parliament, I really began to wonder, not for the first time, what exactly Labour are doing in Holyrood. I can't help but feel their only role now is to preserve this manufactured little exercise in managed democracy. But, this only leads to further questions being posed, such as why any party would want to argue so vehemently against expanding the political horizons of a country and try to manage it into a rather narrow Westminster remit. There again, another question is raised, as to why this ultimate deference to authority has so paralysed Labour in Holyrood. Perhaps, this is just in my political make-up and these standards shouldn't be applied to those in Labour, but I tend to question authority and I think authority is something earned and, once earned, becomes legitimate, and then should undergo a constant process of questioning and legitimisation, an almost daily referendum based on good principles and values. Authority does not stand apart, but to listen to anyone from Labour, one would think Westminster authority is a palatable immutable, unquestionable force. It isn't, there's an entire world out there.
So, to return to little ol' Holyrood and Iain Gray tearing up the manifesto, if that's the extent and level and scope to which people in Scotland's institutions should function, then vote Labour, you will undoubtedly not be disappointed.
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Re 136
As Scots while we have many commendable attributes we have a couple of really bad ones as well. Firstly wallowing about looking inwardly all the time is a major failing, closely followed by a knocking any of our kind that enjoy a little sucess. It is in us all to some extent.
We also have lost the Scottish knack for hard work. We need to redicover it fast.
Do I also detect a hint of the beginnings of the realisation that independence might cost a lot, an awful lot?
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Re 144
I agree that council tax is only just local, in fact this even being eroded by the ever more centralising power in holyrood. the SNP's fixation with a council tax freeze is a way of controlling the councils by means of their block grant. So this has in effect become a central tax.
Why should councils not be free to raise more money locally if that is what local communities want? Why are they so against local democracy? Surely voters can get rid of their council if they don't like what they get.
If we continue down this road Holyrood will have taken control of all aspects of local government by the next election.
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@10 - the clearances were carried out by landowners, many of them Scottish. Ask them for an apology!
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#131. Ed Iglehart
Hi Ed,
I was just wondering, what are the downsides of a land value tax as you see them?
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aye_write:
I wrote a huge paragraph that appears to have been put elsewhere...
I will cut it short.
During a recession, hundreds of thousands of workers have been made unemployed.
During the recession, and during the recession only, if you knew that the extra tax you may pay went directly towards keeping vital services open and operating to current standards such as health, education etc would you be comfortable paying for it?
Forget you are in the United Kingdom, where millions go into the Treasury and for some reason they talk about buying a new trident system...
If you knew that your taxes went directly to front line services, to you, is that a price worth paying?
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#147 Ed,
Point that I meant to make and didn't re the US system was that AFAIK, there is no equivalent to PAYE. (Pay As You Earn)
Most of us in the UK don't submit a tax return - We earn, tax comes off as PAYE. I have never submitted a tax return since I started to pay tax - I have never had any unearned income, no kids, really no changes in circumstance other than transition between jobs.
The US System relies on everyone submitting an individual tax return ? Of course, everyone bitches about paying tax, think that they are being asked to pay too much and will, ahem, try to minimise their liability.
Sure, we have tax avoidance practicioners here too. But they aren't for Jock Tamson's Bairns - IMHO they're for those who feel that for some reason they should pay less tax than "The Law" and "The Government" say that they have to.
Now, Come The Glorious Day, they'll be second up against the wall after the Lawyers :}
Yup, Fair tax for all. I'm over-council-taxed and quite probably under-income-taxed.
Would I be happy about paying more income tax ? Yup, if it got us a nice shiny new bridge paid for in ten years, a surplus of GBP500m and the services that we want and need.
Am I happy about the council tax ? Nope.
Let's see what's out there. Somebody somewhere must have hit on what works. Why re-invent the wheel ?
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Timepasses,
Speaking of a 'troop',Well, I'll be a monkey's uncle!
;-)
ed
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#152 northhighlander
"As Scots while we have many commendable attributes we have a couple of really bad ones as well. Firstly wallowing about looking inwardly all the time is a major failing, closely followed by a knocking any of our kind that enjoy a little sucess. It is in us all to some extent.
We also have lost the Scottish knack for hard work. We need to redicover it fast."
You are right (and quite likeable!)
"Do I also detect a hint of the beginnings of the realisation that independence might cost a lot, an awful lot?"
But it NEEDN'T. That's the thing.
Am I beginning to less trust Scots with the running of thier country? A bit, yes - my husband is probably right. He comes from a Labour soaked area of the central belt and was desperate to get away. He has little trust for Scots to make the right decisions over their future, but I cannot be that black. Some are wrong, but the corret path is still available. Do I have to enter politics? Maybe!
At some level I have to place the Union for 300 years at the back of a lot of the negative aspects of Scottishness you highlight. I will see the good, but I only need to see a little good for there still to be the possibilty for good outcomes - it tends to spread you see if tended carefully. A majority of bad doesn't outweigh that for me, or I would be very depressed indeed!
:-)
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"As Scots while we have many commendable attributes we have a couple of really bad ones as well. Firstly wallowing about looking inwardly all the time is a major failing"
-#152 northhighlander
To my mind Scotlands greatest problem is the lack of a fickle electorate. It sickens me to se Grey demonstrate this kind of contemnpt for serious politics; but who put him in that place (he and his party)? it was the "vote labour, just because..." bandwagon in society.
Thus, getting to your point,, it would almost certianly be in Scotlands national interest to take a wider view of politics; not just limited in scope to the UK. Scots, we all need to learn to be more fickle with our votes, changeable- this insures salmonds and goldies rather than greys and wendies!
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This one is worth a visit, Jack McConnel gets a hand bagging! (he really was mediocre wasn't he):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPVUkIMKNyA&feature=related
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Ouch! Lloyds shares tumble after update
"Lloyds announced that it expected HBOS to report a pre-tax loss for the whole of 2008 of £10bn, which is £1.6bn more than it predicted in November."
UK now 44th economy, it was in top ten last year.
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"If you knew that your taxes went directly to front line services, to you, is that a price worth paying?"
-Thomas, 156
The point is we never do, and besides most tax increases can occasionally reduce the overall amount brought it for a number of reasons; its a disincentive to work (and continue to pay tax contributions), it encourages an exodus of talent a 'brain drain'. And finally your point does reflect a level of semantics- it doesn't matter why the tax increase is being summond up, or where it would go if the outcome would damage our country at recession which it would:
1. brain drain.
2. at a time when we ought to encourage work, taxes on work being introduced and increased would be an reality a disensentive to work.
3. Its largely a tax increase on a peoples whom are already over taxed as is in my opinion.
4. Its clear from the IMF that they believe the best remedy for mittigating the effects of recession is tax reductions. What you are advocating lies in contrast with this well established norm.
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RE #153, northhighlander
"Why are they so against local democracy? Surely voters can get rid of their council if they don't like what they get. "
I don't like what we get right now.
The introduction of the fully proportional system means that during the life of a council, as we have already seen, the makeup and policies of a council can change almost at whim.
This is where coalitions don't work. They don't deliver what the people voted for.
We can't go back to FPP and the bad old days of self-perpetuating OldLab or NuLab hegemonies.
I don't know what the answer is for "local" democracy. We're a nation of 5(ish) million - smaller than some cities.
In hesitiation and much gulping, I say, let's consider at the model of a Provost or Mayor - One individual in which local power and local policy is invested in, supported by an elected council. In fact, I'll come right out and say it, the London Model.
(Or for Ed, the Noo Yawk Model :} )
You get what it says on the tin. Here are The Policies, Here is what we are doing for the next Four Years. At the end, back me or sack me.
Local taxation, Local accountability.
Just a thought.
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#145, thanks for that Ed. I am well aware with the American 'issues' with irony - and have run up against that on a couple of ocassions, (I am currently working in Michigan).
I would generally be inclined to agree with you (re personally and altruistically motivated actions) ; but there is often a journey people need to make to arrive at that particular solution.
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#145, thanks for that Ed. I am well aware with the American 'issues' with irony - and have run up against that on a couple of ocassion, (I am currently working in Michigan).
I would generally be inclined to agree with you (re personally and altruistically motivated actions) ; but there is often a journey people need to make to arrive at that particular solution.
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#156 Thomas_Porter
"During the recession, and during the recession only, if you knew that the extra tax you may pay went directly towards keeping vital services open and operating to current standards such as health, education etc would you be comfortable paying for it?"
With respect, you glaringly miss the point:
WE ALREADY DO
(and aready have been, far more than you would seem to appreciate).
You're logic, though seeming to you logical is tragically and scarily flawed!
Put yourself in my husband's shoes (no jibes!). Why should you (he), in addition to the comparatively massive tax you already pay, bail out the country through a recession? I know what he would tell you and it would definitely get modded.
There are consequences of economic downturn for managers too - he has to make sure the company is coping in these times (he has to work even harder).
In your country scenario your hard workers will get sick fed up of you and go, treated like something to be sponged off. (They already pay the majority of your wanted costs for those public services.)
Come on Thomas, idealistic is fine, but you can surely do better than that.
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How did Gordon Brown get his way?
"He said that Eddie George had gone to Tony Blair to point out the adverse consequences that might follow if regulation of the banks was taken away from the Bank of England and given to the FSA."
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Aye (155),
Initially the biggest difficulty will be arriving at an agreed method of fair valuation.I would think:
1. Valuation should be based on the unimproved site value as opposed to taxing improvements paid for from already-taxed funds.
2. Site value is enhanced by that availability of community-provided amenities, e.g. drainage, roads, schools, hospitals, commercial services, etc. This enhanced value should be taken into account.
3. With regard to 2.) it's obvious that an unimproved bit of marsh or mountaintop would be liable for a lower rate of tax than a prime commercial acre or a serviced homesite in a 'quality' neighbourhood.
Since the purpose of the revenue stream is to benefit "the community", I reckon it's fair to base the tax on the degree to which the site value is increased by the existence of 'the community'.
Because I'm a bit of a fan of LVT, I don't really know much about the downsides of such a system. We might be better off soliciting criticism and potential downsides from any sceptics.
I do wonder, for example, how we would value the formerly 'useless' mountaintops and moorlands, now that they have begun producing huge "windfall" profits...The obvious starting point is suggested by the "community ground rent" alternative name. The tax should represent a reasonable notional rental value, which should in turn represent the potential gain/benefit obtained for having use of the 'property'
Such ideas aren't new, having been discussed at least since the 19th century in "Progress and Poverty" by Henry George. The problems arising with disproportionate ownership of land are the topic of a seminal essay by Professor William Ogilvie of Pittenseer in 1782, which I commend.
There is speculation that Ogilvie met Burns,As it happens, "The Twa Dogs" is on my list of all time favourites...
Slainte!
ed
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Chiefly,
Not so. Employees suffer deduction of tax at source from paychecks (paycheques) and the self-employed are expected to pay estimated tax (based on the previous year) quarterly in advance. In both cases, when you file your return, you either claim back any overpayment or make good any shortfall....Death and taxes....
ed
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#86 hand, you were ripped off dude! Dad's Army is on every weekend ad nauseam, you should just have recorded it!
The course of the English language is perverted enough as it is, granted. But Mr Taylor is a man of chosen words, and he probably said "entertaining" where you or I would say "daft".
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Address to the outtake
My curse upon Gray's venom'd gang,
That frae the deil's bumgut sprang,
An' tho' they've neither claw nor fang,
Their spinning deviance,
Has torn my nerves for far too lang,
Damn'd Millbank tendence!
Why do you girn, when Swinney freezes,
The Council Tax? Most Scots it pleases,
Unlike Broon's legion, sly tax wheezes
Or huge bank loans;
But Gray - thou smallest o' a' cheeses -
Are but his drone.
An' doon your chin the slavers trickle,
When Broon ca's you his "wee lickspittle",
An' leads you intae such a pickle,
My! How you loup!
An' long ago your hammer and sickle
Thrown on the cowp!
O' a' the numerous Labour ghouls,
(E'en those laid low by funding rules!)
Ye jointly are the king o' fools -
Wi' Jim Murphy!
An' when Broon on your lead hard pulls
Ye yelp wi' glee!
Where'er that place be priests ca' hell,
(Perhaps McConnell's Motherwell?!?),
It's time that you intae it fell,
Ye poor catspaw,
Unless 'fore Broon ye can rebel,
An' get some baws!
O Gray, thou pliant, obsequious eel,
Ye squander Labour's scant appeal
Wi' each new speech, sae diarrheal,
An' feeble muckrake.
Scots history will judge you weel,
Yer but an outtake!
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Common sense here regarding LIT. If the man can't get the bill passed, he can't get it passed. That's minority gov't for you (and I suspect that the Budget gave him a short sharp shock there).
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#98 Ms Aye, I must take issue with your distinction between class and earners.
The only sensible way we can look at class is how a person stands in relation to the means of production. One can't say "I'm working class but I own six factories" (sticking to "one" so as not to offend you again!) That's the thing righties complain about - seeing wealth and property as genetic. Now we approach it from different angles, but your class is not who you are, but what you are.
The other thing that I don't agree with is that the wealthy are somehow being "punished" and "crucified" by having to pay higher tax. Progressive tax is pretty much a simple acknowledgement of the fact that countries need money and the more one has, the more one can afford to pay. You and your husband receive many benefits even if not directly from this system, so it's not as though everything is being taken from you and you get nothing back...yet! *evil laugh*
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#136 Ms Aye redux, not jealousy but economics.
In these times of peril, credit crunch, general brokery and rising unemployment. People look less favourably on high wage earners who say they are being punished, persecuted and crucified because they have to pay a few hundred quid extra a year in tax.
Those people might point out that losing your job and your home are, weeeelll, more PRESSING worries.
The poison of Scotland is the huge difference between rich and poor and the crushing misery at the poverty level end of the spectrum, no?
Hah, punished persecuted and crucified, that's amusing. You do make me laugh Ms Aye, but sometimes in a good way. And I think you should go into politics, your special advisers will steer you away from publically bemoaning your fate on 90k a year during a recession ;)
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#163 deanthetory
"3. Its largely a tax increase on a peoples whom are already over taxed as is in my opinion."
Thank God you exist dean ;-)
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Interesting little blogspot- recent entry on the latest subject (I.E.-LIT)
http://new-right.blogspot.com/
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Loon Rules! Yay!
Slainte!!!
ed
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A lucky escape, I reeckon...
;-)
ed
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"I think you should go into politics, your special advisers will steer you away from publically bemoaning your fate on 90k a year during a recession ;)"
-#175 fourstrikes
Those people on 90k a year are high earners because they work for it! We should encourage people to work hard, make a fair contribution; not over tax them, make them feel sorry for having contributed to the general welbeing of society. Fourstrikes, come on, why do you see high earners not as hard working, entrepreneurial citizens, but as evil demanogues. Its a very Scottish thing I fear to see everything through a class struggle mentality. This form of thinking is not in the best interests of the people of Scotland, just like LIT isn't and the current devolutionary settlement isn't.
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#180 deanthetory
You are a tease ;-)
"the current devolutionary settlement isn't."
Do tell!
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#174 fourbraincells
Well one of us sounds like a moaning whinger...
You ARE jealous. The way you say "a few hundred quid extra" as if I should have the audacity to care about that! You do obviously, so why not I? Double standards - ugly.
"#98 Ms Aye, I must take issue with your distinction between class and earners. "
I make no distinction - I merely quoted what some might say. We are not obsessed by it, probably why Mr Write escaped his background and I dare say you never will.
"The only sensible way we can look at class is how a person stands in relation to the means of production."
Yawn. You look at it.
"One can't say "I'm working class but I own six factories" (sticking to "one" so as not to offend you again!) That's the thing righties complain about - seeing wealth and property as genetic."
Who did/was?
"Now we approach it from different angles, but your class is not who you are, but what you are."
I wasn't actually looking at it. You seem obsessed though...
"The other thing that I don't agree with is that the wealthy are somehow being "punished" and "crucified" by having to pay higher tax."
No, no, no, your prejudices hindering you. You don't get it.
I clearly stated there is no problem with paying more than others. Paying tax is not some kind of problem for us!
The objection is to pay even more in a recession, to be the cash cow to bail everybody else out. Don't be such a bunch of weasily scroungers.
"Progressive tax is pretty much a simple acknowledgement of the fact that countries need money and the more one has, the more one can afford to pay."
Are you educating me?? Good grief.
"You and your husband receive many benefits even if not directly from this system, so it's not as though everything is being taken from you and you get nothing back...yet! *evil laugh*"
Uh, huh, and the benefits are?
I think you'll find we subsidise everyone... But there you go, we're nice like that.
"Ms Aye redux, not jealousy but economics."
No, jealousy.
"In these times of peril, credit crunch, general brokery and rising unemployment. People look less favourably on high wage earners who say they are being punished, persecuted and crucified because they have to pay a few hundred quid extra a year in tax."
How rude. Thank you would be better, scrounger. These people are mistaken if they think having a go at me will help them - it's sad.
"Those people might point out that losing your job and your home are, weeeelll, more PRESSING worries."
No doubt, but even so they are bitter. And although they have a cause, though still wrong, they are just the kind of bitter types I've warned you of. It is jealousy....
That's sad - you poison Scotland.
"The poison of Scotland is the huge difference between rich and poor and the crushing misery at the poverty level end of the spectrum, no?"
We pay so much tax surely that this problem ought to be being helped, no? Oh, we've to pay even more! Hang on...! You can't blame the rich for it doughball. Easy though, eh? But your type always need a scapegoat.
"Hah, punished persecuted and crucified, that's amusing. You do make me laugh Ms Aye, but sometimes in a good way. And I think you should go into politics, your special advisers will steer you away from publically bemoaning your fate on 90k a year during a recession ;)"
Bemoaning my fate? Are you over exaggerating? Sign of a poor argument.
Politics? Maybe. But I'm not into slagging people for what they earn - like you. It's pretty nasty.
One of us would be seen as positive and one negative. You have so much rope to hang yourself with I need not try.
You have no idea how many people have underestimated me and lost by the way. Keep smiling just now fourstrikes. You just aren't the clever one you think you are and one day it will eventually dawn. Smugness is no immunity. And no, you can't have a sub.
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#177 deanthetory
dean, did you write it?
;-)
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#179 Ed
It makes you wonder how much of the 2007 "profit" was real. If the FSA had been on at them since 2002 about the risks they were running and they had sacked their top risk person, the auditors must have known that it was at risk of not being there to audit in 2008. And it very nearly wasn't.
Sue the auditors, they'll have more money than the bank now!
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Ridiculous to make blanket comments that all those on 90,000 a year don't deserve it.
Comment that all those on that kind of money are "deserving" is even more ridiculous and should have died out with Social Darwinism early in the last century! What sort of "new right" are we talking about here?!
"demanogues"?
=
demagogues? Even then that doesn't make a great deal of sense - how are the wealthier really like a particular kind of politician who uses the sentiment of the common people for his own - normally nefarious - aims?!
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You are a tease ;-)
"the current devolutionary settlement isn't."
Do tell!
-#181 Oldnat
Ha, a tease? Thats a good (and original) reply to my deliberately vague end statement! :)
I recently compiled a contribution to the Calman commission asking for a resolution to what I see as the unworkable current state of devolved aspects of the economy.
Or more precisely -and I may be a bit ahead of my own party in this view- for Holyrood to act as a proper parliament, with responcible labour, SNP adminstrations in the future then a budget rather than what is effectively a grant could be more desirable.
A grant creates a Scotland built around a largely unprofessional public sector with free sepending labour-libdem coalitions. It is in effect also responcible in part to the culture of "spend, spend, spend"- without any real attempts to grow the Scottish economy. I tell you if these MSP's had to spend what they had to administer, nourish, grow and develope then suddenly we'd have a better lot of more professional MSP's (and less Grey's) who actually bult up and invested in Scottish industries.
A greater level of economic (budgetary) devolution would also make Holyrood more relevent to ordinary voters. At present Holyrood still can be treated as a Westminster side show, a route to demonstrate a protest; i refer you all to the first parliament- Labour-Liberal dominated, then the 2nd one- the 'rainbow parliament', and now a 3rd one- Nat dominated (albeit marginally). There seems no regular loyalties as yet for the Holyrood parliament.
So in short, I'd love to see greater financial devolution. But as for devolution being a two-way street- i'm not sure on that one as yet.
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aye write I did.
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Gordon Brown’s fantasy island,
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/jeffrandall/4605022/Bit-by-bit-Gordon-Browns-fantasy-is-being-pulled-apart-by-the-facts.html
"Alistair Darling has given himself until April 22 to prepare his Budget, much later in the year than normal. At this rate, he'll need every minute. According to Business Monitor International, a research company specialising in country risk, 'Britain is facing an unprecedented fall in its economic world ranking… from 12th place in 2007 to 21st in 2010'.
Its report, Britain on the Brink, says the UK economy is sliding out of the global premier league: 'Despite enjoying 11 years of growth between 1997 and 2007, the UK ran a budget deficit of 1.7 per cent of GDP over this period, fuelling a fiscal time bomb. Faced with the financial burden of bailing out the banking sector and kick-starting the economy, the budget deficit will swell to an unsustainable 9.3 per cent of GDP in 2009.'
… You can see where this is going. From here, all roads lead to Harare."
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"the wealthier really like a particular kind of politician who uses the sentiment of the common people for his own - normally nefarious - aims?!"
-pattymkirkwood #185
A gross generalization.
"What sort of "new right" are we talking about here?!"
- #185
Ok i'll provide you with a brief definition: "The New Right definition involves a mixture of free markets, financial discipline, firm control over public expenditure, tax cuts, nationalism, 'Victorian values' (of the Samuel Smiles self-help variety), privatization and a dash of populism".
"Ridiculous to make blanket comments that all those on 90,000 a year don't deserve it. "
-#185
You've got me backwards, I'm saying precisely that- we shouldn't be making harsh criticisms on successfull, entrepreneural money makers in our society. Go back and read my comments above again, in particular 163 and even further back!
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# 182 Ms Aye, LOL.
You truly have your knickers in a twist, untwist them and commence debate. You can do it!
Do I care about a few hundred quid more? Check - cause I make about £75k less than your husband does. This is just plain common sense, my lass.
As for the insults about my background, I suppose we can all see what kind of independent Scotland YOU want, can't we? You're not exactly selling your cause here.
Yes, I spent my early years in council housing. I've signed on the dole. I've worked a lot of thankless jobs and I've taken housing benefit. I'm still a Scot for a' that. I've done things you would squeal and run away from in case you broke a nail. From the tone of your last post, I'd guess you'd shepherd your kiddies away from me in the street in case they caught "working class". I'm still a Scot, for a' that.
To a Tartan Tory like yourself, I and a lot of other hard working Scots are "scroungers". You actually came out and said it.
It's more funny than sad, Ms Aye. Enjoy your life, but try not to scorn the people who make your life as comfortable as it is.
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Ms may-aye, all this happy talking is doing you no favours, in fact your captain sensible approach is just one big dream, aint it!
I guess if you ever did visit the south pacific
Isles, those indigenous people would welcome your la,de, da attitude with real venom.
Happy talking...talking....Happy talk.........
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"To a Tartan Tory like yourself, I and a lot of other hard working Scots are "scroungers". You actually came out and said it."
-#190 fourstrikes
Are the tartan tory breed hated even more in Scotland than us regular tories? Ha, i wish...
I paritcularly loved the "I'd guess you'd shepherd your kiddies away from me in the street in case they caught "working class"."
Your sentiment is dead on, classist snobbery and obsessive classism in politics removes from the fact we are all Scots.
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#29 Here's your proof
http://www.newssniffer.co.uk/articles/192141/diff/1/2
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#190 fourstrikes
You really are an ignorant fool!
First laughing at me, well that's the sign of a very poor argument and an insecure wee man (I bet you are short by the way).
I have done many a job. If you only knew... Not for me the advantages of starting higher up - in fact quite the opposite, as opposite as you can get. I think in at least three of my jobs I was the lowest paid in the whole company...but I worked my way up.
I've signed on the dole, so has husband many years ago. You don't have to label yourself, you can still achieve after it you know.
No one is insulting your background. I am saying it is praiseworthy to want to do well regardless.
The reason you don't earn what my husband does is simple - you aren't as able as he. He is smart and capable and because he is he can earn more. Maybe get over it.
But because he does doesn't deny him the same right to worry about 200 quid. It's still 200 quid. He is still a person just like you.
Your contempt for him is what makes you unpleasant - don't you see that.
Why is 'tartan tory' such an nice insult for you to hurl? It doesn't send me away flinching. You are the one with the problem.
As for scroungers. Those who think higher tax payers owe them anything are indeed scroungers. As for hard working Scots, they are hard working Scots.
"It's more funny than sad, Ms Aye. Enjoy your life, but try not to scorn the people who make your life as comfortable as it is."
Mr Write and no one else, over 20 years of hard, hard work, has made our lives what they are.
Perhaps you should try it, instead of bemoaning others for getting on. It's really pathetic.
Check out Ed's quote about circumstances. I think you would do well to take it in.
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#192 deanthetory, honest Tories are one thing. We'll disagree strongly and mayhap violently ;) but where Ms Aye went was just daft.
I hope you have better arguments than because I'm poor I'm a "scrounger" unlike hubby who makes 90k.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#175 fourstrikes
You need to be very careful with definitions on this blog. You and aye_write have different definitions of that over which you appear to be arguing but in fact the other's point of view is missed completely because you are talking of different things even though you are using the same words.
"high wage earners" might be someone who owns 6 mills through a company and pays themselves the profits, GBP millions, as a "wage" for being director.
Equally it can be someone on 92000GBP (4x median earnings), who has learnt how to safely break through a high pressure well and is standing there with his(her) hand on the string while it happens. (And I wouldn't do it!)
High earners can be people with a short shelf life, sportswomen, glamour models as well as people famous for being famous (famous for being fatuous as I tend to think of them). A lot of these sportsmen work hard to get to the top whereas a glamour model, I was about to say was born with it, inherited it.
I'm sure you would not want tax these 4 examples in the same way but you need to come up with a system of taxation that can differentiate between them and that is difficult. In fact you'd probably have to pay a lot more than 92000GBP to get somebody who could.
Council tax is unfair; fine as a political slogan and for a given value of unfair.
LIT is better; fine as a political slogan and for a given value of better.
The devil is in the detail, the definitions. Then it's no longer politics, it's tax.
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"As for scroungers. Those who think higher tax payers owe them anything are indeed scroungers. As for hard working Scots, they are hard working Scots."
-#194 aye_write
Good point. I've said such similar many a time. It is astounding sometimes how classism effect peoples mindsets.
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#194
Frankly Ms aye, I couldn't give a dam about your ill fated tales, little Ms Ritches does have a lordy time of things.
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Ms Aye, you're just getting more angry with every turn. What do you have to defend?
Short, ha. You'll be worrying about personal part size next ;) (Now, that would make an interesting thread! Hopefully with pictures ;))
You did indeed insult my background, because I could never...NEVAH! rise above it like super 90k hubby! Had you forgotten that if I did and everyone on my pay did, there'd be no one to carry out the basic services you value so much?
To me, service and working for others is an important value. If I never become rich, that's OK as long as I've done something useful in this life.
I don't have any contempt for your husband. I'm sure he's a perfectly nice guy. However, I am a socialist and a Marxist, and I do believe that "the history of all hitherto existing societies is the history of class struggle". Your husband, you and I are on opposite sides. I may respect you as a person, you may (as your class does) decide I'm a stupid short scrounger ;) That doesn't alter the reality.
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I read the free copy of the Record on the train tonight (I won't pay for one!).
I can see where greenockboy gets the notion of media bias. The article about Swinney shelving LIT for now was quite strong and to be honest a bit unfair.
They were justified in criticising the SNP for offering policies on their manifesto, but failing to deliver. But they should have balanced this with the reasons why some policies have justifiably been shelved (not all are justified in my opinion). Likewise, there should be balance with criticism aimed at Labour (and the others) for sabotaging the first budget.
I've even read a few other papers recently and I can see that the SNP have got problems with the media.
How do they counter this? Getting smarter. No matter how strong an attack from the media, they cannot lie about comments made. Celebs yes, politics no.
So Alex needs to get his communications strategy sorted now. They are constantly reacting rather than being pro-active.
The media are painting him into a corner as they - and Mr Graywhosiface - are trumpeting the fact that the last main policy is the referendum in independence.
Alex would be justified on deferring the vote until the economic situation improves. But he cannot now back down without taking political damage.
Labour is not quite flavour of the month, but in Scotland it's not the same as SE England.
Going with the referendum vote in the Scottish Parliament next year might be risky. It might be better to defer it until after the next election. Sure, he wil take political flak now, but remember that the public will be fairly disinterested in a few months time.
Whereas if he goes ahead with the vote, and loses, it is very close to the next elections, and it will certainly be used against him.
The big weakness with the SNP is communications. They have the advantage of a strong leader and deputy leader.
The focus should be on high level policies. Discipline is esssential and MSPs should keep away from trivia such as Mary Queen of Scots. Yes, it is important etc etc but it is of no tangible benefit to anyone.
Sorry for the long post, but been rather busy at work! And I know some of it is pure speculation, but fairly informed this time.
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The one thing that those opposing LIT seem to conveniently forget, or ignore, is that Council tax has been increased by 100% since its introduction by the Tories, whereas income tax has decreased.
Who has benefited from this? the better off and of course the rich. Who now pays proportionally more? - the less well off and the poor, (although the very very poor are protected by Council tax Credits).
Council tax is banded, not based pro-rata on house values - who benefits from this - the better off and the rich
Someone on £7k pa pays about 16% of their income in Council tax and Water charges which of course used to be part of the old rates. Someone on £140k pa pays about 2% of their income. Is this a fair way of collecting monet to pay for services that all earners use?
I think we should take a look at what Council tax pays for and ask ourselves what has being a householder got to do with it any case. If it is a wealth tax, then why not have an annual tax on all wealth; stocks and shares, valuable paintings, bank accounts, land, etc. etc.
Otherwise, the only fair system is one related to earnings whether the better off like it or not!
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#195 fourstrikes
"I hope you have better arguments than because I'm poor I'm a "scrounger" unlike hubby who makes 90k."
Ah, that's why you went off on one, you've been called a scrounger before. Not surprised.
You've got a real chip on your shoulder, not least because I said husband not me. Your type (I have met many) think you can have a go at a woman but it's all sook in to a man. Pathetic!
I look after 4 kids age 2-7 all by myself, more work in a day than you're probably used to in a week.
You are a scrounger. You think higher earners owe you their tax. Well poor old you. Needy? No, needy personality. You're really downtrodden aren't you. It is you who is greedy, you who has the persecution complex, and you who will drag Scotland down with you.
Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country, scrounger.
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#198
Deanthetory, does the Bishop agree with your name?
Jeez! a real live tory! Wow! thats all discuss Oliver Twist and the work houses.
Lord Archer, Jonanathan Aitken, real tory men of honour Dean!
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#197 handclapping, yeah, I'd regard those people in different ways. It's a complex issue, no doubt about it.
In a socialist Scotland we would have to consider a number of variables.
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"Going with the referendum vote in the Scottish Parliament next year might be risky. It might be better to defer it until after the next election."
-201 Neil_Small147
The currently proposed date is not that far from the Hollyrood GE late date- i think Grey will simply get his MSP's to talk the bill out of that session- no vote-no flak for either voting against it or U-turning again and accepting a referndum...
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#186 deanthetory
I think we would probably agree that the current devolution settlement was constructed by Dewar/Campbell as a project which would head off the SNP, and hand over permanent control of the previously administratively devolved powers for Scotland to a Lab/Lib coalition - even while the Tories ruled the UK.
Consequently, the financial mechanisms were not designed to allow real freedom of action for the Scottish Parliament but to ensure that they continued to deliver what you aptly describe as "a Scotland built around a largely unprofessional public sector".
Their idea reeks of the arrangement by which Dundas delivered a group of compliant MPs to the UK Government in return for extensive patronage powers in India. It was, of course, a bad political miscalculation, as the 2007 elections showed.
While we will disagree as to our preferred direction of constitutional travel, until that divergence we travel a common road.
The current settlement is unsustainable, and any Scottish Government needs to be responsible for the raising of revenue as well as its disbursement. That will ensure more responsible Government within Scotland.
Whether the people wish the Parliament to take on more of the reserved powers is, of course, a matter for them - though all of us here will try to persuade them!
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#190. fourstrikes
"Yes, I spent my early years in council housing. I've signed on the dole. I've worked a lot of thankless jobs and I've taken housing benefit. I'm still a Scot for a' that."
I must be a real snob then as I have never lived in a council house (tied houses yes), I've been unemployed made redundant 3 times, never earned as much as you, but I ain't complaining. Wealth is in the eyes of the beholder and I am very rich living surrounded by farmland and trees.
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#203
aye wrote
"I look after 4 kids age 2-7 all by myself, more work in a day than you're probably used to in a week."
Wow! did the nanny do one because you under-payed?
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"Deanthetory, does the Bishop agree with your name?
Jeez! a real live tory! Wow! thats all discuss Oliver Twist and the work houses.
Lord Archer, Jonanathan Aitken, real tory men of honour Dean!"
-derekbarker #204
Ok- lets John Major born with nothing ended a PM. He may have failed in many respects as a PM but he had his dignaty and a work ethos that my generation badly needs in their heroes.
Thatcher, her policies may be contentious but you can't deny she lived as a grocers daughter and through hard work, sound ideas about livijng within your means (think many can learn a lesson there!). Super Ken Clarke, David Davis--- all nothing to something men from working class backgrounds. So yes, lets discuss real tory men of honour derekbarker!
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Ms Aye, I'm sorry you have so many issues. I can't help, really. I'm just an anonymous poster on a message board.
The issue of whether you were female or not (obviously so!) never arose. You were offensive, I presume you felt you had something to gain from that. Whatever it was, I dunno.
You just wanted to make sure I was fully aware of my class status, and you felt you had proved your status was far higher than mine so you could be as contemptuous as you want. After all, hubby earns 90k, as you have reminded us repeatedly! And you're a stay at home mum!
TBH, the argument's a boring one. Look, I earn 15k. I do a job you would never, ever do. I am working class, and I think salaries at the level you constantly tell the board about as if that makes hubby a better person morally are ridiculous. We don't have to hate each other, we're coming from opposite positions.
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#200 fourstrikes
fourstikes,
Your bitter classism is plain right form the outset - why else would you persist in calling me Ms Aye? I don't come from money or anything like it. My area is ordinary. My house is too small for my brood, but we manage.
I'm not a spolied little rich girl. More of a woman anyway, but why not meet my arguments as those from another person, as equal as you? Would that not be more in keeping with your doctrines?
"Ms Aye, you're just getting more angry with every turn. What do you have to defend?
Short, ha. You'll be worrying about personal part size next ;) (Now, that would make an interesting thread! Hopefully with pictures ;))"
Don't flatter yourself, you'll get as excited as derek.
"You did indeed insult my background, because I could never...NEVAH! rise above it like super 90k hubby!"
I didn't. You are still making a petty characature of what I say...it's getting a bit boring.
"Had you forgotten that if I did and everyone on my pay did, there'd be no one to carry out the basic services you value so much?"
I am not slating anyone for the level of pay they get (unlike you). I do not think those who earn less are lesser. For years I EARNED LESS, a lot less!
"To me, service and working for others is an important value. If I never become rich, that's OK as long as I've done something useful in this life."
OK, but you will you please accept that my husband has done stacks that is useful also.
"I don't have any contempt for your husband. I'm sure he's a perfectly nice guy."
Well......no, he is!
"However, I am a socialist and a Marxist, and I do believe that "the history of all hitherto existing societies is the history of class struggle"."
So you have to obssess about it? Just wondering.
"Your husband, you and I are on opposite sides. I may respect you as a person, you may (as your class does) decide I'm a stupid short scrounger ;) That doesn't alter the reality."
My assessment of you is nothing to do with class. I don't even have a great undertanding of the concept to be honest, and that's fine, it doesn't hold me back. My assessment of you is based on the things you say, the way it was said and you sound very like other bitter folk from down my husband's way.
You gave me that impression.
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#208, poverty is not the test of the Scot!
Unless you're Ms Aye, that is.
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Ms Aye, the reason I call you that is from respect, strange as that may sound. I also say Mr Swinney, Ms Fabiani, Mr Taylor, etc. I'm more used in my personal life to say "comrade" but I have always believed in respectful ways of address. As saying "aye write" sounds wrong, I prefer to give you the title Ms. If it upsets you, I will stop doing it. Just let me know which you prefer!
Derek is very amusing, but I wasn't planning on donating pictures to the thread myself. Just pointing and laughing ;)
To be a Marxist does mean we do focus politically on class. It doesn't indicate personal hatred for anyone.
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#210
Dean of the willow? christ, nick leeson come from a council estate, didn't excel in school
got a jod in a bank meet some real hard-line tory toffs and Hey! presto the crime wave began.
The grocers daughter indeed! Dean, she married a multi-millionare and her children were educated in the most expensive private schools, WoW! you were kidding me on! your not a tory are you.
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aye_write does have a good point about all socialists and marxists obsessing about class, when the rest of us in society do not. However I do not quite understand your main objection to aye_write fourstrikes- is it because she is a stay at home mother (this has already made you comment rather gleefully), or is it that she believes in people living within their means and not expecting more than what they work for / minimum state safety net. Fourstrikes hard working people earning between 35k-90k are not doing to to keep scroungers living long term on the dole between generations!
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#189, Dean - you clearly didn't understand, or are deliberately twisting, what I wrote.
"Ridiculous to make blanket comments that all those on 90,000 a year don't deserve it. "
-#185
I condemned your stance in equal terms - directly underneath that - which you would know if you had bothered to read it properly!
Demagogue? - I was asking you for a definition of the word you misspelled. Giving you the opportunity to tell us what you mean - as clearly your previous post made no sense.
New Right?
"Nouvelle Droite arguments can be found in the rhetoric of many major radical right and far-right parties in Europe such as the National Front in France, the Freedom Party in Austria and Vlaams Belang in Flanders (Belgium). This, despite the fact that Alain de Benoist and certain other ideologues of the Nouvelle Droite, since the late 80s, had issued statements against some populist far-right movements. …
The European New Right is similar to the Cultural Conservatism movement led by Paul Weyrich and the Free Congress Foundation, and to the related traditionalism of paleoconservatives such as Pat Buchanan and the Chronicles (magazine) of the Rockford Institute (Diamond, Himmelstein, Berlet and Lyons)."
If it has anything to do with the dominant strain of the New Right, as set out above: no thanks. I would hope to keep that as far from the mainstream of Scottish politics as possible. He, he ... Scottish Tories: "mainstream"!
Re your #163, Tax reductions to get us out of this: Really! Go and sit in the corner with that dim, strange boy Tavish.
Infrastructure is the answer; tax cuts leave the same hole in the books as infrastructure but no long-term benefit.
A more general comment now intended for a somewhat wider audience: it is not helpful to throw around the term "scroungers" for seemingly no reason.
There are perfectly good, intelligent people who remain squished at the bottom of the job market; while a number at the top are there due to who they know - rather than what they know. I am not intending to attack anyone, or any member of their family come-to-that but this pretence that we live in some form of "perfect meritocracy" is utterly ridiculous and hollow.
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#213. fourstrikes
Ha who mentioned poverty I live in my own detached house thanks.
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#211 fourstrikes
Sorry, you're still not getting it...
"Ms Aye, I'm sorry you have so many issues. I can't help, really. I'm just an anonymous poster on a message board."
Now obviously that's meant to be clever and funny. If it were directed at yourself, it could be.
"The issue of whether you were female or not (obviously so!) never arose. You were offensive, I presume you felt you had something to gain from that. Whatever it was, I dunno."
I was returning arguments to your offensive, snidey, ridiculing and patronising ones. Was I offensive? Perhaps, but I wasn't born yesterday.
"You just wanted to make sure I was fully aware of my class status,"
I don't give a sh!t about your or anyone else's class status. You have brainwashed yourself with your books?
"...and you felt you had proved your status was far higher than mine so you could be as contemptuous as you want. After all, hubby earns 90k, as you have reminded us repeatedly! And you're a stay at home mum!"
You really feel I mentioned any of that to be contemptuous, to make you feel small! You DO have a persecution complex...I honestly hope you get over it.
"TBH, the argument's a boring one."
Yes, well it can be when you lose..
"Look, I earn 15k. I do a job you would never, ever do."
Man, you didn't listen. I have had really sh!t jobs, served the public (it's a real skill actually) etc.
"I am working class, and I think salaries at the level you constantly tell the board about as if that makes hubby a better person morally are ridiculous."
Well, that I would say is because you don't understand how salaries are worked out and awarded etc. His wage is not obscene. He still isn't home from work yet by the way.
As for making him better than anyone. My point was never that. I was seeking to illustrate he is not less of a human being because he earns more, and so should not be treated like a greedy pig for doing so and taxed to the maximum as fair punishment. THAT'S wrong.
"We don't have to hate each other, we're coming from opposite positions."
Well I agree on that. Stop taking the pi$$ out of me then (Ms Aye).
Respect gets everyone a long way.
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#216
Is there for honest poverty, Dean!
I will tell you this Boy! the mans the gowd for A' that.
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"The grocers daughter indeed! Dean, she married a multi-millionare and her children were educated in the most expensive private schools, WoW! you were kidding me on! your not a tory are you."
-# 215 derekbarker
The tories, belief it or not, aim for a classless society where peoples successes or failures in life is not based on brith, inheritance etc but ability, MERIT. I was merely attempting to demonstrate how many Tories that you choose to ignore have represented this upward mobility ambition.
Who she married is irrelevent, she'd already stood twice for MP by then, and working in a plastics factory! Enough of the tory toff bull, because in fact very few in our party are such people, and even we tories dislike them. Please do not take the Boris Johnsons out there are brush us all with the same brush.
But hey understanding is a three edged sword as they say: your understanding, my understanding, and the truth :)
And yes, i'm a tory: check out my blog mate if you still have doubts :)
http://new-right.blogspot.com/
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#210, Dean you have done the impossible - I find myself agreeing with Derek Barker!!! Truly never though the day would come.
The very idea that quote "your generation" (much the same as mine, incidentally) could look up to - or even know who - John Major was: is hilarious. John Major: Hero. Maybe compared to Gordon Brown! But other than that the man is completely forgettable and his biggest achievements were really a) Kinnock's failure #210, Dean you have done the impossible - I find myself agreeing with Derek Barker!!! Truly never though the day would come.
The very idea that quote "your generation" (much the same as mine, incidentally) could look up to - or even know who - John Major was: is hilarious. John Major: Hero, maybe compared to Gordon Brown, but other than that the man is completely forgettable and his biggest achievements were really a) Kinnock's failure (1992) and b) keeping that illicit 4 year affair with Ms Currie secret.
I am getting out of this "blether" for now before it becomes even more disturbing.
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I said, I was gone but #216 is just plain offensive. "hard-working people", such a ridiculous term - they exist at all levels of society.
Try spending some time working a minimum wage job and then tell us some income-brackets are hard working and others are not!
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"Demagogue? - I was asking you for a definition of the word you misspelled."
- #217 pattymkirkwood
I didn't realise dislexic people offended you. Three cheers for you madam.
"Infrastructure is the answer; tax cuts leave the same hole in the books as infrastructure but no long-term benefit."
- #217 pattymkirkwood
I do agree with you in so far as infrastructure is important, but so is releaving the heavy burden of tax during the recessionarry period. That will allow for people on the margins of defaulting on their morgages a chance to survive Browns failure of regulation.
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#207 oldnat
Talking of patronage: Westmidden is 650 snouts, how could we get a system whereby once a GE was over 300 of them were sent home with say 12000pa for "expenses" no questions asked and the rest of the shouting and bawling was done by those on more than 2.5 times median earnings. Gov't would still have it's majority, enough people to ask questions, man committees etc. but 300 fewer potentials for patronage?
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#219
Ms aye is someone extracting the Michael
Hmmm! write enough! leave the girl alone,
she is having a Shirley temple moment.
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"Nouvelle Droite arguments can be found in the rhetoric of many major radical right and far-right parties in Europe such as the National Front in France, the Freedom Party in Austria and Vlaams Belang in Flanders (Belgium). This, despite the fact that Alain de Benoist and certain other ideologues of the Nouvelle Droite, since the late 80s, had issued statements against some populist far-right movements. ?"
-pattymkirkwood
I advocate a return to Thatcherite understandings of living within your means etc... and as for my definition that you so twisted yourself- it came from Nigel Lawson so there is no linkage to todays National Front in France at all.
Get yourself a glass of water, calm down and read it all again my dear!
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#222
Well! hello patty! aint it great to agree.
John Major and Ms Edwean Eggs Currie
yes a real hero?
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#217 pattymkirkwood
"A more general comment now intended for a somewhat wider audience: it is not helpful to throw around the term "scroungers" for seemingly no reason."
Not for no reason. The original slight was that the rich should pay more in a recession as 'they can afford it' (as if there's money running out of the taps).
This means folk believe the rich owe them, as they should pay this extra money.
I said people that believe that believe that trhe rich owe them something.
And my assertion then therefore was that if someone believes the rich owe them then they are a scrounger.
See?
:-)
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#221
Dean old chap! please refer to your sea ferring friends as mates, you know the likes of Osborne.
So young naive Bullingdon Dave and his nottinghill advisers club are not tarred with the toff aggressive tory tag! O' yes they are.
Come on Dean, you are no tory, you may well be a troll but never a tory.
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"John Major and Ms Edwean Eggs Currie
yes a real hero?"
-derekbaker #228
I was commenting on his ability to go from a poor back ground to making something of himself, being a good local MP for example. If you can't understand this point, do not labour about the mans failings (but my god Currie! thats a hell of a failing!)
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Come on Dean, you are no tory, you may well be a troll but never a tory.
-#230
sorry not familiar with the term 'troll' an opposite to tory. (I feel thik at this point mate ;)
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#231
Yes even Edwina was a weaning tripe of nasty stuff?
lOOK, there is areal danger that the tories are encouraging more voters to vote BNP
their immigrations and Anti-European policies are driving more and more to the far -right.
I think you knew that! I believe you are the plant to expose that situation. abe?
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#224 & 227, number one I happen to be called Patrick. In any case I would not advise you to call any "little ladies" either "Madam" or "my dear". You are not at the club now. Here we generally like to treat women as our equals.
As to dyslexic people – run it through the spell-checker, if you cannot make yourself understood (and demagogue still makes no sense in the context you placed it in by-the-way) then your contribution to the discussion is of no-value at best.
I offered the dominant definition of "new right" - I in no way twisted your definition. I am trying to save you from yourself - as that is what you are associating yourself with in the minds of many (if not an outright majority). Just yesterday I heard a lecture on the "New Right" in Britain, as defined by Enoch Powell. Think.
Anyway, I must go, reality calls - remember that Dean? "Reality"?
#228, Derek - indeed, no doubt you find this as uncomfortable as I do: but remind young Dean of the meaning of "society" (in the Thatcherite sense) will you?
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#231 deanthetory
(but my god Currie! thats a hell of a failing!)
Power corrupts ... ?
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aye_write,
I respect your opinion on most issues, but on this one I am not on side; that said, I cannot support what is being said by fourstrikes earlier.
My real problem is with your choice of the word: "scrounger" which legitimatizes its use (in rather different ways) by our tory friend(s).
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"228, Derek - indeed, no doubt you find this as uncomfortable as I do: but remind young Dean of the meaning of "society" (in the Thatcherite sense) will you?"
Thatcher attacked the socialist understanding of society, the nanny state, the over grown over reliance on big government. The replacement of the family with government. She offered up an alternative society - based on family, local communities. I know exactly what Thatcherite society means in th context she explained it.
As for "run it through the spell-checker" comment, grow up! My spelling ought not to cause you sleepless nights, its hardly that pressing sir!
Finally the context in which I used the word "demagogue" makes perfect sense- as it means precisely:
1 : a leader who makes use of popular prejudices and false claims and promises in order to gain power
2 : a leader championing the cause of the common people in ancient times
As for your gender, all I can do in that regard is offer you an appology sir.
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#236 pattymkirkwood
"I respect your opinion on most issues, but on this one I am not on side; that said, I cannot support what is being said by fourstrikes earlier.
My real problem is with your choice of the word: "scrounger" which legitimatizes its use (in rather different ways) by our tory friend(s)."
Hmm, well, OK. I am not responsible for the way others use words, but fair enough, I could as easily used another one I suppose.
You are ususally very good as cutting right through to the heart of the matter on Brian's blogs, which I appreciate, and in much less words than I, I have to say.
:-)
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#237 deanthetory
At first it seemed that you might be one of the more forward-looking members of your party.
Alas, your more recent posts suggest that you don't merit that description.
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Thatcher stood for nothing but rampant greed, corrruption and denial. The self reliant good Parishioner and Britisher she purportedly stood for was an absolute lie. She did more to undermine Britishness, ordinary British people and their communities than anyone else had done ever. She made sure her cronies, many of them foreigners (which would be incidental but for her wrapping herself up in the Union Jack), were well rewarded by the absurd and hugely damaging asset strip of this country that she oversaw in a manner which was nothing short of treasonous. The roots not only of the present financial crisis but the mean spirited selfish anti-societal attitudes that are the ruination of so much in this country owe a huge amount to her stupid venalilty and the wholly unintelligent vision she ruthlessly upheld and which has made vacuous the political culture of this country. And since this is essentially a Scottish blog lets not forget that she was nothing short of an enemy of Scotland and the Scottish people. No wonder even the Tories themselves want nothing to do with her. A utterly detestable woman and whoever supports her should know they are defending the indefensible.
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"At first it seemed that you might be one of the more forward-looking members of your party.
Alas, your more recent posts suggest that you don't merit that description."
-oldnat #239
What can I say really? I believe in budgetary devolution to Holyrood, I believe section 28 was our parties lowest moment. I want to see the council tax replaced, preferably with a locally focused tax- I believe that I am progressive, perhaps not quite as much as you had hoped. But I'm certainly no political dinosaur!
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#239 oldnat
No, oldnat, he seems to have a lot of common sense. Not sure about the Thatcher bit though. She did put a lot of working people long term on the sick, so can't really agree with dean there ;-)
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Can we stop the class wars please?
The country needs a mixture of class and position.
Excluding those who have inherited wealth, people on high salaries have usually worked to achieve that level.
However, that does not make them any better or worse than those on low salaries.
Nor does someone's political affiliation. I know working class people who vote Tory, and upper class who vote Labour.
Without capitalism, there would not be any substantial wealth.
Without socialism, there would be no protection for the low paid.
Trade unions help to protect workers, but some go too far and destroy business.
We need a balance of people prepared to work together.
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#241
Just what do you mean by "budgetary devolution" within those two words lay' that old beating stick the tories smashed into the working-class. thats your worth and thats what you get syndrome.
I suggest that you word your replies more carefully, especially when replying to oldnat.
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Epitaph for the eighties?
"there is no such thing as society"
Prime minister Margaret Thatcher, talking to Women's Own magazine, October 31 1987.
Your demagogue comment continues to make no sense precisely because of the definition you cite. How can you claim a whole "class" (something you "don't believe in" apparently!), as having the characteristics of a charismatic but somehow twisted leader?
It is a completely unfair characterisation (and a clear misunderstanding) of the poster (fourstrikes) to whom you were replying.
Re: run it through the spell-checker. I stand by it 100%. I repeat: if you cannot be understood what is the point of your posting? If you are trying to take part in the blog DISCUSSION, be sure you are not portrayed unfairly for something so trivial. Otherwise you are just taking part for purely cathartic reasons. There is nothing so discouraging as someone (of any political persuasion) stuck on "broadcast mode".
As far as I am concerned the matter is closed. I am happy to disagree amiably with you from now on, provided you don't take such offence at me merely trying to understand what on earth you mean! (Your post was decidedly confused). I will leave it there.
#238 aye_right,
Thank you for that! I always appreciate hearing your viewpoint on the topic and where the discussion wanders. That word in particular has been used in ways so spiteful that it still stings when the intent is not there.
& now ladies and gents I really must be gone, as I have plenty of work awaiting me. :-)
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The Sri Lankans don't want Des Browne. Funny that, Scotland didn't think much of Brown appointing an imperial envoy either ;-)
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OK. It's hardly news to most of us but the Times is carrying a story on Secret plan to deprive independent Scotland of North Sea oil fields in the 1970s.
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"Just what do you mean by "budgetary devolution"
-#244 derekbarker
What are you talking about?! I explained this earlier! (clearly your new to this discussion).
What I mean (and oldnat agreed by the by) was that Scotland needs control over its budget, rather than a block grant that only serves to perpetuate an over reliance on an inefficient public service in Scotland.
As for your comment "within those two words lay' that old beating stick the tories smashed into the working-class. thats your worth and thats what you get syndrome", I believe in helping the poorer off, because we can't all be lucky in life. Such gross over generalixzations of all tories as this derek is pathetic. Sorry for the tough language but it is. I want to see greater help for the less well off, and the best way to start is to make it more financially beneficial for the unemployed to work rather live on megre benefits! That means cutting VAT, and other forms of tax that adversly effect these poorer people. How does that square with your rather outdated view of the Tories/
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"Your demagogue comment continues to make no sense precisely because of the definition you cite. How can you claim a whole "class" (something you "don't believe in" apparently!), as having the characteristics of a charismatic but somehow twisted leader?"
-#245 pattymkirkwood
I argued that the majority of that class, in the Scottish context, was displaying such characteristics of a charismatic but somehow twisted leader- because the notions their TUC and political leadership argue for represents their viewpoint, and in that regard I regard men like Sheridan, Galloway, Brown deeply displaying the 'demagogue' characterstic- and through them the people who voted for them.
But hey, its not that big a deal- I admit my linkage is tenious but I also contend it is reasonable enough to use that descriptive word. M post was therefore not decidedly confused.
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Aye (182),
Hanging onto bitterness and resentmentis like eating poison and
expecting somebody else to die.
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Aye (182),
Hanging onto bitterness and resentmentis like eating poison and
expecting somebody else to die.
Salaam, etc.
ed
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#248
Dean old chap, as I said earlier! your clearly no tory.
Stop relating things and stuff! to helping the poor off, christ, if you want to be a part of the human race, then acknowledge the general sensus of society.(did the Bishop never preach, that god made all man equal, Dean Boy?)
You written work is clouded with elitist nonsense. You pillaged and scorched the empire but hey! it was done under the flag of democracy! I thought you said you were progressive.
Dean, it's an ignorant way to refer to a situation of poverty as just plain unlucky.
For years the elitist have surpressed and squandered the wealth of the many, it's been generally engineered, nothing to do with luck.
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Ed Iglehart your being a little hard on aye_write aren't you? She was merely outlining a position with personal references to help illustrate that position, but hey, if that kind of subtlety is lost on you- that can't be helped can it.
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#251 Ed Iglehart
Em, thanks for the links re land tax etc. I shall read them - I like to have time to look properly. I get the feeling I should read more about that guy!
I do point out the bitterness in too many Scots to be honest because I see it as a big thing, something that could make independence go all wrong for us. We need to be grown up when deciding about tax and live with reality. Fanciful ideas, such as fourstrikes's will be the death of a successful independent Scotland I fear.
Good night Ed.
:-)
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#253 deanthetory
Thank you dean,
I seem to be in more of a minority than usual, in that I do believe in common sense and sympathise with what you're saying but support independence.
One day they will see I'm right!
Anyway, thank you, and I'm not quite sure what Ed meant, but I know he is a nice fellow, so...
:-)
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"Dean, it's an ignorant way to refer to a situation of poverty as just plain unlucky."
-#252
No it isn't in the least. Children born into broken families- that is just plain unlucky. When a man looses his job due to a failure to regulate the banking system, he is a son of bad luck. I am not saying all poverty is casued by bad luck, that is stupied. But I do feel that your deliberately twisting my words, taking what I say out of context in order to reinforce some kind of misguided understanding that poverty is caused entirely by the evil 'capitalists'. Please! Marx has been thouroughly discredited by history, political hhistory at that.
"You written work is clouded with elitist nonsense." No it is not, why is it elitist to say poorer people deserve tax cuts? Why is it elitist to advocate family values where apporpriate? Stop attempting to turn everything back to an "us and them" mentality of class warfare.
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Cynical,
Snap!!Complain about this comment
#253
Dean, I watched a clip of President Obama
on TV a few days ago, as he spoke to a crowd about the American recession, an old lady busrt into tears, when giving the chance to ask the President a question, she told the President how this recession had cost her, the old lady her home. President Obama left his speech bloke and went over to the old lady, President Obama embraced the old lady with a very sincere cuddle.
Dean I'm proud of our new socialist American friends as they nationalise their banks and embrace people and peoples needs, I'm proud that President Obama wants to embrace the world and put an end to the greedy old days of conservative corruption.
Dean, conservatism is drift wood, it's gone with the wind, embrace this new social age of responsibility.
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Fourstrikes,
But it does reveal a possible source of the problem....Eh, Napoleon?Complain about this comment
"Dean I'm proud of our new socialist American friends as they nationalise their banks and embrace people and peoples needs, I'm proud that President Obama wants to embrace the world and put an end to the greedy old days of conservative corruption"
Mate you are going to be sorely disappointed I think. I'm not gleeful but Hilary Clinton aint no solcialist nor ever will be. Remember these nationalsations are temporary. Please I just don't want your hopes to get that optimistic when Obama is left wing yes (in Amercian politics), but in UK politics his views are more centrist than Scargil!
"greedy old days of conservative corruption." If everyone was a share owner in a share owning democracy the proceeds of capitalism would be reached by all. This is hardly a corrupt and greedy vision. Sorry.
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#256
Dean, society is only broken if you use rhetoric to say it is? so the man/woman who lose their job, get a redundancy package that pales into insignificance with the chief executive who swans off with a massive redundancy package. what are you advocating.
Children brought up in poverty are the victims of failed government Dean, nothing to do with luck.
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#261 derekbarker
"Children brought up in poverty are the victims of failed government Dean, nothing to do with luck."
Yes, yes, it's always blame somebody else...
I didn't know you were bi....and dean admitted he is a BT virgin....derek!
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#260
Dean, you are almost embracing clause 4.
Your not a tory! are you.
Dean the republican party in America are
terrified, that the new measure and bail-out in the America is the first signs of real socialist America.it's true kid!
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Semantics here, I'm not saying that its not governments fault. of course it is, i'm just saying misfortune cannot be ignored unless your a militant class warrior.
"so the man/woman who lose their job, get a redundancy package that pales into insignificance with the chief executive who swans off with a massive redundancy package. what are you advocating"
Well i never meantioned bonuses, redundancy packages or anything, this is where your falling back on opinions I simply do not hold. Poverty is poverty, and it is all horrid and we all ought to pull together as a compassionate society.
Why do you insist in meantioning things like chief executive redundancy payments when its got nothing to to with my central premise:
This is what I am saying: we need better regulation of the financial system. Fair? That not all poverty is a government failling, there is in certan cases the element of indivudual responciblity- i stress in cerntain cases.
I do believe we both agree on something needs to change in the regulatory system to prevent future recessions like this one which will see 2.5m+ unemployed.
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#264
Yes Dean! we do agree on the need to plan and mitigate against this recession.
We dont need the conservatives talking down every plan and action, it's unhelpful and costly, yes!.
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Shame that when the modding is down to 5 minutes everyone's gone home
#201 Neil_Small147
- Going with the referendum vote in the Scottish Parliament next year might be risky. It might be better to defer it until after the next election. -
There will be at least two elections before a referendum on 30 November 2010. The EU this June and a Westminster by June 2010.
This gives the SNP 2 bites at the cherry of political reality before the referendum and a lot longer for the depression to show that the Union has failed and for Calman to report and be rubbished. No, I think they have a sporting chance but also it wouldn't be in the nature of the SNP not to go for it; it's what they are about fundamentally.
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Patty,
I agreed with this when you first said it, and I'm glad you and Aye have sorted it out. I'd add that I like both of your styles and contents.Which brings me to Dean, who has mistaken my thrust in the accidentally duplicated 250/251, which was in support of Aye's observations...so easy to get wrong-ended in this medium (no facial expressions and inadequate 'emoticons' ;-)) "Bitter" got Obama into a lot of "trouble" last Spring...and I seem to recall accusations of "elitist" too....
G'night all
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"Dean, you are almost embracing clause 4"
-#263 derekbarker
Your talking absolute nonsense now. As a registered Tory, what the heck do I care what the Labour constitution says? If anything the return of clause 4 would merely make labour unelectable again so in so far as this is the case... yes it might be something i'd lent my had to supporting, ha.
"new measure and bail-out in the America is the first signs of real socialist America"
Again, state your evedence for this statement. If anything it might see an end to Reganomix in the U.S. but not anything as radical as an NHS, or socialism. Dreamland...
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#266
I shouldn't have said it! I know, my fault it's up to 15 minutes.
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#262
O' behave' said the Bishop to the rook!
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#264 deanthetory
We shouldn't blame the regula(r)tory(s) for the recession.
We can blame Gordon Brown who devised, set up and staffed the system, of which he boasted about at many City dinners, for the oncoming Depression. America doesn't come into it, our slide from the Premier to the 2nd Division is entirely home grown and Brown's the farmer.
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#197 handclapping
"You need to be very careful with definitions on this blog. You and aye_write have different definitions of that over which you appear to be arguing but in fact the other's point of view is missed completely because you are talking of different things even though you are using the same words."
Thinking about it again handclapping I think that had a lot to do with it, probably why I was increasingly blunt! You went on to make some interesting points.
Ed
Thanks, and I think it was either you or handclapping who said about tax, the devil is in the detail. I absolutley agree - very important point :-)
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"We dont need the conservatives talking down every plan and action, it's unhelpful and costly, yes!."
- derekbarker #265
Your just winding me up now. We Scottish Tories have been highly constructive to the debate, after all what is not helpful and what "talking down" about wanting proper regulation, or tax cuts at a time of great financial hardship for most?
I like to think these are all very the opposite of unhelpfull. Please, explain why they aren't derek (if your being serious ;))
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#274
Ah, Dean, if your saying that the conservative unionist party in Scotland is of a different identity and total opposition to that of the conservative union party in westminster, then thats new news to me!
So Aunty Annabel Goldie is a conservative nationalist, can you please define this new conservative nationalist party?
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#268
link !
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/us_elections/article5014706.ece
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#273 deanthetory
"Please, explain why they aren't derek (if your being serious ;))"
Ah, at last! We all know derek well, dean. Have a peep through his previous posts (click on his name) to see what he is about ;-)
I hope for his wife's sake he pays as much attention to other areas of his life as he does on blogging!
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re Tax and independence
Before I go to my bed, I would just like to clarify the following:
I an NOT opposed to a system of progressive taxation. That would be silly.
Regardless of the system of taxation decided I WILL still vote for independence.
(Scotland must decide, not just me.)
I do have worries about the 'social normalising' practices of some far right posters on here, as I think they are detrimental to a properly functioning economy, which of course is not good for all.
But I have CONFIDENCE in healthy democratic debate and think that all the viewpoints in Scotland will be considered not just the ones that are the loudest on here (including mine!).
So, it's all to play for really. And THAT'S the beauty of independence.
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"So Aunty Annabel Goldie is a conservative nationalist, can you please define this new conservative nationalist party?"
you guys would just love to have a scottish tory position backing independence- ha. What a block of power SNP-Con Nat Party would have....
alas it as never going to happen. ;)
As for self determination for Scotland, I'd like to see a referendum because either way it would settle the issue.
As for the reality- i've said it before and i'll say it again (before i go to bed also) Scottish New Labour will simply attempt to talk the independence bill out of the Hollyrood term if Salmond leaves it as late as he'd like.
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I meant to say far left.....!
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#280 aye_write
far right / far left both are so far from most of us that they'll meet on the other side of reality.
Damn! I only got up for a drink of water, but that computer ......!
Final Goodnight.
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Aye (278/280),
They meet 'round the back, y'ken. The Left-right spectrum is for those who find a flat Earth too complex to comprehend...
G'night
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#280 aye_write
It's bad enough not knowing your left from your right in real life, but a cyber-person on a political blog ... Well, really!!! 8-)
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#281 oldnat
D'y'know, after I'd posted I thought just the same myself!
(And I was just heading for a pee!)
Good night :-)
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#282/#293
Alright (all left?). Commedians!
Good night ;-)
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Brian
Everybody has been posting about the problems with Council Tax for the rich and very rich but will nobody care for the poor! So I thought I'd have a look.
It's not the sort of politics you enjoy but looking down the road we have personal pension accounts coming in.
You build up say 16000GBP when you get struck down, unable to work and eventually end up on Income Support/ESA/Council Tax Benefit. Will the 16000GBP be part of your means for the means test for IS/ESA/CTB? And if not why not? They are your savings after all.
Or is this another NuLabour spin thing that hasn't been properly thought through?
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Now that it has been proven unequivocally by the TIMES of all people that both labour and the tories in London were against devolution in the 70's, offering support only at the most basic level to try to taint the SNP, and moved the borders artificially for england's gain, off northumberland and even considered to do similar around caithness, and even trying to start anti scottish dissent in orkney and shetland, so that they could still be part of the UK if scotland left, can there really be any credibility that the labour party in Scotland was not and is not just a puppet to their London masters?
Perhaps Gray would like to comment on his views on this, instead of tearing up SNP manifestos in much the same way the factual McCrone report was torn up I should imagine.
As this is a claim that has been denied for so long, perhaps Brian can check the veracity of Linklater, hardly a nationalist supporter, to see if that same thinking still pervades both in the media and Whitehall?
A debate in Parliament is perhaps needed, both in Westminster and in Holyrood is required, after 35 years of British civil service lies and decit. No wonder everything the SNP do is knocked by the London machine, the civil servants and the Londom pollies work in tandem together! Thoughts Brian?
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Perhaps the SNP should demand the water borders are returned to the previously correct line as per UN1968 charter.
In light of the comments in the times, you are either for us or you are against us, and time to pick which side of the fence you support now, having changed sides covertly and without much discussion just prior to the 2nd devolution bill being passed.
Let us see after all the truth comes out about London actively changing marine borders, even trying to incorporate Orkney and Shetland in some non Scottish alliance that takes 53% of the oil for London coffers in exchange for a few local benefits to the locals there. I wonder what the current local Lib Dem MP and MSP thinks.... and will they have the guts to comment?
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Secret plan to deprive independent Scotland of North Sea oil fields
Click Here
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242
Just not true, I'm afraid.
You have to buy a licence if you watch live tv. Therefore, if you use your computer to watch live television, you will need a licence, if you don't want to break the law. If you use it to watch prerecorded programmes (such as on the bbc iplayer or channel 4 catch up/on demand) then you don't.
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Sorry, that should have been #42, not 242
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Heh, I got bored and wandered off, thereby missing all the good bits!
#249 ed, I'm not short personally but I respect the rights of the short! ;)
It's AW who thinks I'm a wee tiny man, but hey! Is there not room for all heights here? Do we need to be sizeist? ;) (I swear, this is going to end up as a photo contest one day.)
#278 AW, I will call you this from now on as the whole point of honorifics is not to offend, and you were offended. OK with that?
(I don't think you would appreciate me calling you comrade. And it would do unspeakable violence to a perfectly innocent word. ;))
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#292
"Just not true, I'm afraid."
So which part of my statement :"you still have to pay the TV tax, even if you don't have a TV" don't you understand?
Try reading what people actually write before you start pontificating.
Worse - you're eagerness to shoot down other people is misldeading people in a way that could end up with them being given a serious fine because you want to appear in the right.
Apology due for them at least, if you can't bring yourself to give one to me!
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#287 redcliffe62
#288 redcliffe62
#289 greenockboy
Here is another related article by the same authors:
Plan to hive off Orkney and Shetland
Trash Gordon recently said - I will do anything I can to keep Scotland part of the union.
I wonder what webs these NuLabour neep's are weaving now?
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Sorry, my#293 was in reply to #290 (linds556) not #292.
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#267 (I think) ed,
It's not being bitter, class is a simple fact of life.
It's ridiculous to fight for your side in the class war and then get outraged if the other side responds! C'mon!
#216 dean,
I have no objection to AW as a person. She does to me, but that's OK and may even provide the lulz ;) She's obviously very intelligent and well read.
What I do object to is this ridiculous "meritocracy" idea where if you earn X amount of money it proves you're a better, more socially valuable person than anyone who earns less. The guy who wrote "Meritocracy" in the first place meant it as a satire, it was taken up as a rallying call, how bizarre is that?
I'm a "scrounger" who will never "escape my background" in AW's world, because I'm on 15k and not 90 and I'm a socialist. No problem, her personal opinion of me isn't important, but it seems like she applies this to anyone who challenges the status quo and isn't as rich as her.
Also, "escape" my background? I'm proud of the working class tradition in Scotland, we have a long and rich history. I come from a background that includes Red Clydeside and John Maclean, and we'll take up the Red Flag and keep it flying when Labour have tried to drop in in the mud.
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#264 dean again,
It's not the "regulatory system" which causes such flaws, but capitalism itself!
#261 derek, yes! I agree.
#256 dean redux, how can you look at the situation which surrounds us and say that Marx has been discredited?
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#293 bighullabaloo
TV Licensing
The above is a simple summary of the TV licensing laws.
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#298 Roll_On_2010
What are you telling me for? I already know what the law on TV licences is (see my #42).
I describe the law correctly in my #42 for the benefit of greenockboy who asked about it in his #37.
Do't tell me you're another one (see #290) linds556 who is so eager to correct other people you don't take the time to read what they've written and that what they've written is actually correct?
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#254 AW
I don't see how my ideas could mean the "death of an independent Scotland", care to elaborate?
#249 dean
Have no clue how you could reasonably compare Sheridan, Galloway and Brown. The first two listed are very good orators, which no one could accuse Brown of being. They are also socialists, which no one could accuse Brown of being.
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#299 bighullabaloo
I put my post in to support your, correct, interpretation of the TV licensing laws. My apologies if it looked otherwise.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Fourfstrikes (296),
Ah, The FutureAll morning, I've been hearing folk on the radio saying things like, "The problem is global..." I, on the other hand, am of the opinion that global is the problem...Oh well, I guess the fact that I'll be enthusiastically watching Scotland v France this afternoon pegs my "class"...
Slainte!
ed
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#301 Roll_On_2010
Thanks. Unfortunately my #42 is correct!
First they turn computers into TVs without asking any of their licence fee payers if that's what they want. Then they threaten to turn you into a criminal if you have a computer capable of receiving live TV shows, without being able to prove if you are actually watching live TV shows on a computer. So you have them accusing you of a potential crime that they can't prove you've committed. That's not democracy. That's something out of a totalitarian state where you are guilty if they say so. Licence fee should be scrapped and BBC should earn its keep like everyone else in the real world.
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LOL! I get a LOTR response to the problem. But which are you, Ent or Wizard?
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fourstrikes
Congratulations, you have misrepresented everything I've said so that it's 'getting at you'.
HOW
SAD
One last question though:
Comrades all it seems except my husband (that's nice of you).
So where is the line then fourstrikes?
18k, 22k, 36k, 44k, 80k?
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Are you in favour of independence fourstrikes?
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Fourstikes,
Socialism has been utterly discredited, and i'll explain why thats my opinion-
socialism believes in removing wealth from the wealth makers in society, but at such a rate as to drive them abroad. We live in a globalised world economy, and we still shall after Brown, recession, perhaps even independence if that where to ever occur. We would be isolating ourselves internationally by applying wholesale socialist thought in this nation alone- that last time the idea of "socialism in one country" was attempted it was by Stalin...you remember that great comrade of the revolution don't you?
Socialism creates class tensions by demanding everyone maintains a kind of obsessive loyalty to the "rank" they were born into, socialism far from seekign no class systyem seems to advocate the distruction of all other class stratifcations.
In this modern era class warfare no longer requires socialism to represent it besides, today there is social democratic movements, Trades U
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#306 AW, no, it's just an interesting class attitude on your part, that is all. I'm just a representative of inconvenient people to you, I expect. ;) Neither of us know each other.
As for drawing the line, it's not a cash issue but a class issue. If you don't want to be challenged on hubby's earnings, refrain from boasting about it on this series of tubes.
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#307 bluelaw, yes I am.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
-trades unions, the majority of which do not subscribe to your 'socialism' idea anymore.
Socialism has been attempted and has failed time and again in history- China, its no longer socialist (in name only perhaps), USSR- doesnt exist anymore, its the Russian Federation today, Cuba- its on her national knees thanks to the abuse of human rights.
Capitalism on the other hand does work, because our system always bounces back from downturns, and creates more wealth. Besides recessions will allow the UK export industry (through a falling pound) to thrive... and finally the current situation financialy was not caused by 'capitalism', that is merely a crude over simplirfcation- it was regulatory failure matched v by Gordon Browns reluctance to fulfil his role as chancellor properly and other factors besides... the system ultiamtely works however, the high average living standard here in the UK vindicates this point as compared to yours historic socilaist experimentations.
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#309, dean, interesting post.
I'm no fan of Stalin, being a Trotskyist ;) but what I would say to this point you make is that I would like to see an independent Scotland as a beacon of socialist thought and practice, and from there that the ideas would spread. NOT that we practice "socialism in one country".
Socialism doesn't "create" class tensions but responds to class tensions instead of deciding they don't exist.
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Aye_write
I agree with your earlier sentiment people like fourstrikes would ruin an independent Scotland were it to occur!
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#310 fourstrikes
"#306 AW, no, it's just an interesting class attitude on your part, that is all. I'm just a representative of inconvenient people to you, I expect. ;) Neither of us know each other.
As for drawing the line, it's not a cash issue but a class issue. If you don't want to be challenged on hubby's earnings, refrain from boasting about it on this series of tubes."
I have no class attitude - YOU DO.
How dare you ASSUME I would feel that way about anyone.
My mention of earnings is no boast - but you are so unattractively insecure you see it as one. PETTY.
Do yourself a favour fourstrikes.
HAVE A GOOD LOOK IN THE MIRROR.
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315. At 12:47pm on 14 Feb 2009, deanthetory wrote:
Thanks ;-)
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AW, I dunno how to even respond to your comments. And that makes me sad because I'd like to respond in detail, but I can't cause all your posts are about what a horrible person I am.
I don't need to assume anything about you, you've told me it all in your posts. According to you, I will never "escape my background" like hubby has. I'm a "scrounger". These are, whether you like it or not, class terms.
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"Socialism doesn't "create" class tensions but responds to class tensions instead of deciding they don't exist"
I am afraid it does 'comrade', because it teaches of an 'us' and 'them' attirdue and this will serve to perpetuate the class issue. The way to remove the class issue from our daily politics is to encourage upward social mobility, the principal that you can achieve anything you want in life through the applicaion of hard work. Your socialism is obsessional concerning class loyalty. After all, you've been bashing aye_write with the fact that she's not 'working class' but you are. Far from removing class, you decide it exists and make it the centre priece of your identity. Myself, I acknowledge it exists but realise it ought not form the be all and end all of politics.
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#315, you need to look at Scottish history a bit more. If you think all traces of socialism would instantly vanish to make a low tax world where high wage earners are worshiped, um no.
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Dean,
in fewer hands....and even a dead cat will bounce (if dropped from a great enough height);-)
ed
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#313 deanthetory
"Socialism has been attempted and has failed time and again"
Agree, head of Unite union being sudsidised by those on low pay to keep in him in a lifestyle beyond normal means.
"Capitalism on the other hand does work, because our system always bounces back from downturns, and creates more wealth."
False, as it follows the path of a rubber ball dropped from a height until it finally comes to rest at its lowest point.
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#315 deanthetory
Thanks :-)
But I don't think it's a worry. The people of Scotland I'm sure would want to live in the furure not the past.
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#310 fourstrikes
I have real problems with this class thing.
My parents are both professionals, I go to a grammar school courtesy of the Gov't and on to University; am I middle class?
I work for bosses for my living and am paid wages; am I working class?
By chance I get very rich and stop working as I can live on my money; am I now upper class?
I invested my money in HBoS and am now depending on the old age pension for my livleyhood; what class am I now?
You can probably tell by looking at me what class I am at anyone time but how do I from inside know? and where are the boundaries? If you have to explain, does this not mean it is an un-natural division of people? Why can't you let people be people?
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Aye,
I had taken it as an admission....;-)ed
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321. At 1:08pm on 14 Feb 2009, Ed Iglehart wrote:
ha, I don't know would a dead cat bounce? (no.. don't answer that one!;))
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Dean,
Less of the "upward", mate.Complain about this comment
"upward" was not meant in an offensive context.
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Further to #315, I guess all us shocking lefties who support independence had better just knuckle down and shut up, eh?
Nats want support, but from the *right kind* of people. That means people who earn from 35k up (not those horrid dole scroungers and people who just can't rise above their positions to become a super winnah at 90k pa).
Interesting, and saddening.
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321 Ed
Snap
I often wonder how long its going to be before people realise that its easier to work with the laws of nature rather than fight it because it does'nt fit their percieved mould.
CO2 reduction treaties useless
"Sea level rises could be seven metres in the UK by 2250, which, unchecked, could inundate much of London, East Anglia and other coastal areas."
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#324 hand
What school you go to - immaterial
You work for bosses - working class
You become very rich and don't need to work - ruling class
Depending on old age pension - working class
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"I guess all us shocking lefties who support independence had better just knuckle down and shut up, eh? "
-fourstrikes #329
No one said anything like that, my goodness you really do have a chip on that shoulder of yours! Better get that checked out before in causes any unneccessary back strain- you'll need that back to fight the power when the revolution happens comrade.
As for "Nats want support, but from the *right kind* of people." What is being said is almost certainly ambigious, but clearly its citing that the SNP what people free of class issues, self victimhood. These sorts of people can't help the SNP cause ultimately.
The facty that you take the statement as a class jibe (which it is not) only reflects your cronic insecurity concerning your own self image. Get over it.
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Dean,
Not 'offensive', maybe, but revealing,... words matter. Intent is not infallible, else the road to Hell would remain unpaved...Complain about this comment
#304 bighullabaloo
Yep I agree - what a brave new world we now live in.
Possibly that is one of the reasons why this NuLabour government are so eager to push a National DNA database that covers everyone. With the advances in this technology they will be able to weed out potential crimes at birth, and meter out punishment and fines in advance.
Possibly that is what this government, at westmidden, meant by - from the cradle to grave.
To address your later remark:
I totally agree with this statement but would strive to inject an amendment:
The majority of the BBC should be made to make their own way in the commercial world but with the provision that the BBC News reporting is retained. This slimmed down version of the BBC should be completely independent and free from political gerrymandering from whatever government is in power.
That the news is, unbiased, and based on facts and not an interpretation based on those facts.
The news should be targeted to the area it is being delivered along with National content.
To achieve this it is inevitable that some form of costs will be involved, whether that comes from a much reduced licence fee or the government, our, coffers is another moot point, I would go with the later.
I also believe that the same argument could be used in favour of the BBC retaining coverage of documentaries and programs deemed to be educational.
One thing is certain, in this ever changing world; we need a discussion on what a future BBC role should be.
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"documents from the 1970s revealed strategies to stop Scotland laying claim to North Sea oil.
The Whitehall briefings suggest delaying a referendum on devolution and redrawing the boundaries of Scotland's coastal waters. "
So, if anyone on here still wonders why some of us support independence for Scotland - see the above.
The answers are:
1. We're not as stupid as the Unionists would like us to be. We can identify barefaced liars when we see them.
2. We don't like having the wealth of our country stolen to prop up subsidy junkies in other countries.
3. We don't like underhand cheats who suggest things like "changing the boundaries of Scotland's coastal waters" simply to satisfy the greed of their political masters.
If, on the other hand, you are incapable of any of these three points, then carry on suypporting your precious Unuon - you will go on reaping the cost of your stupidity.
So, as you can see, nothing to do with hatred of the English, but a lot to do with hatred of thieves and exploiters in the UK government.
If this alone doesn't convince you that independence is the only way forward then you deserve everything you get.
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"Not 'offensive', maybe, but revealing,... words matter"
-#333 Ed Iglehart
Absolutely they do, but then so does how you interpret those words. I was merely using a well established socio-political phrase because I thought everyone would have understood that I'd used it in that context. Sorry for not being clearer though. :)
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#329
Yip! when the SNP leader is drawing more than one salary, lives in bute house and doesn't pay council tax, well! there is the message form the leader, only the wealthy can join the SNP brigade.
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For Aye_Write (and any others interested in LVT)
IMPLEMENTING THE NATIONAL LAND-RENT CHARGE ("LVT"), and much more pertinent material is here
Peace and Fair Shares
ed
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1. We're not as stupid as the Unionists would like us to be. We can identify barefaced liars when we see them.
- These were the private comments of civil servants and never formed part of any government policy. Grow up sir.
2. We don't like having the wealth of our country stolen to prop up subsidy junkies in other countries.
Your distinction between their country and our country is deeply revealing. What 'subsidy junkies' in other countries are you refering to? Oh i presume you mean England (correct me if i am wrong), this being the case, rememer 13% of the entire UK pop. lies in the greater london area and as an independent nation you'd be deprived of the economic benefits of that wealth. "Stolen", just grow up.
3. We don't like underhand cheats who suggest things like "changing the boundaries of Scotland's coastal waters" simply to satisfy the greed of their political masters.
You miss the point, most of the oil is not Scotlands, but Orkney and Shetlands, but anyway they didn't seek to "satisfy" political masters at all. Myth and lies sir.
I do not mind people opposing the union, just please make a proper case, and stop using incidents from 30 years back as some kind of jsutification for an us and them attude. A much better case for independence can be made than that sir. I suggest you learn that as the case you make only divides Scots, it doesnt convince them of the worthiness of your cause.
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At last the truth is in the public domain.
Whitehall documents just released?!
I've known about them for years! Couldn't understand why it managed to stay quiet...well that's a lie, I do ;)
Give us our country back...NOW!
The sad thing is, we all know...really?
I mean, that this is happenning to us.
Hopefully our dear BBC political man (North or South of the wall) will start a blog off devoted to this subject alone. The we can see nats and unis do e-battle.
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#334 Roll_On_2010
Basically your amendement suggests that the BBC should carry out its functions as a public broadcaster.
I would have no objection to that.
The problem is the BBC have shown themselves willing to grossly exceed that acceptable remit by turning themselves into a progaganda wing of the UK government.
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Dean,
Indeed, and understood. My point is that we should look a bit deeper and appreciate the 'unconscious' messages carried in "established socio-political phrase(s)"...Peace and off to watch the Rugby!
ed
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Looks like the Beeb have woken up Anger at plans to stop oil claim
"First Minister Alex Salmond said: "These papers are proof positive of the bad faith of successive UK Governments - Labour and Tory - in depriving Scotland of access to our own North Sea resources for nakedly political reasons."
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#339 deanthetory
"The documents obtained by the Times newspaper indicate there were proposals to prevent Scotland laying claim to the North Sea reserves in the event of independence."
Let's see if you or one of your big-talk Unionist chums on here has got the cajones to tell us exactly what practical steps the UK government could take to "prevent Scotland laying claim to the North Sea reserves in the event of independence."
How exactly, would they do that?
I bet you won't have the guts to give some clear, direct, and unequivocal answers to that!
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#331 fourstrikes
Thank you. it seems odd that winning the lottery made me ruling class. I'm not in the least like Gordon Brown. It's his misrule that's got us into this pickle and wiped out my investment and yet, because he is running round like a headless chicken trying to stick his fingers into all the bursting dykes all for the 150000GBP he's paid, you would have him as working class?
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#339 deanthetory
"most of the oil is not Scotlands, but Orkney and Shetlands, but anyway they didn't seek to "satisfy" political masters at all. Myth and lies sir."
Have you actually READ the story in The Times that the BBC based their article on?
The Whitehall documents on which the article is based stated: "53 per cent of the oil reserves in existing discoveries ‘belong’ to the Orkney/Shetland islands, 46 per cent ‘belong’ to Scotland and the remaining 1 per cent ‘belong’ to England."
This was part of the Whitehall mandarins' cunning ploy to "divide and rule" by "hiving off" Orkney/Shetland from the rest of Scotland just so they could deny Scots the benefit of wealth from the natural resources of their own country.
On the evidence of their own statements in these documents, the Whitehall mandarins stated that 46 per cent of discovered oil belonged to Scotland. So, no lies and nothing mythical about that! Nearly HALF of the discoverd oil WAS Scotland's!
You can see their problem though. Only 1% of it "belonged" to England! Ouch!
You say these Whitehall toadies weren't trying to satisfy their political masters. Who were they trying to satisfy then? Themselves? They were all shareholders in oil companies were they?
These toadies were doing the dirty work their political masters told them to: find ways to steal the wealth of Scotland's natural resources to prop up the UK - and - not just England. The UK is not just England but maybe you haven't noticed!
You obviously aren't capable of understanding my original post. It clearly states this is not about hatred of the English - it's about the exploitation of Scotland's wealth by the UK government.
p.s.
Still waiting for an answer to my #344 but I doubt we'll get one from you.
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#267 Ed,
Thanks for that.
Dean,
"Capitalism on the other hand does work, because our system always bounces back from downturns, and creates more wealth."
I take it you are against the current system being implemented to varying degrees all over the world now? Where (having privitised the profits for a generation) we now socialise or 'nationalise' the debts of these institutions.
A gelded form of socialism is currently saving the capitalist system; without establishing enough benefits for the ordinary people.
Where do all the free marketeers go during a recession?!
I would have more respect for the outlook of said free marketeers if they then said of businesses and banks (as well as individuals) during the hard times: "let them go to the wall".
Where is the moral hazard in "bailing out" those dreadfully mismanaged banks (or car companies - I am in Michigan remember)? Where indeed is the moral hazard in paying off people's mortgages for them - as President Obama suggests for a limited group. What of the individual, who bought the smaller house, knowing that was what he could afford? Or the bank that kept within its borrowing limits and stayed away from doubtful sub-prime "assets"?
Capitalism has definitively failed to right itself on this occasion and that is why the rest of us must pay such a heavy price.
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#339. deanthetory
"Your distinction between their country and our country is deeply revealing. What 'subsidy junkies' in other countries are you refering to? Oh i presume you mean England (correct me if i am wrong), this being the case, rememer 13% of the entire UK pop. lies in the greater london area and as an independent nation you'd be deprived of the economic benefits of that wealth. "Stolen", just grow up."
We've been denied that funny money wealth for decades and the oil revenues which have been lubricating that economy. The UK is heading for a national debt umpteen times its GDP, similar to the mortgages which have bankrupted the banking industry. Capitalism is like nuclear energy a failed system neither of which have done what was promised and the arrogance of mankind cannot face up to these truths.
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#339 deanthetory
"Your distinction between their country and our country is deeply revealing. "
Yes, it deeply reveals I'm not stupid enough to see the country I was born in - Scotland - ripped off by an unfair Union that works mostly in favour of England. Tough nuts!
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Brian
In the light of the claims made in your article on "Anger at advice to stop oil claim", it is interesting to speculate whether the now Sir David Walker will be advising to continue paying bankers bonuses (boni) for as long as possible despite Gordon Brown's manifest urging of stopping them.
Or has duplicity in Government suddenly stopped under a son of the manse?
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#345,
Being PM basically sets one as part of the ruling class, so no, I wouldn't describe him as a worker ;)
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#351 fourstrikes
"Being PM basically sets one as part of the ruling class"
Does that mean that no members of a Socialist government (and I don't mean right-wing Labour!) can ever represent the powerless?
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An interesting aspect to the latest oil story is the clear priorities that the UK civil service demonstrated. As a Scot one might have thought the UK civil service was our civil service, just as much as it was anyone elses. But these devious plans show the truth.
The suspicion arises that the civil service is primarily England's civil service, the priority being to look after England's interests at the expense of the interests of Scotland (I've no doubt that Wales and Northern Ireland would be similarly plotted against too should they seek to leave the fold). The divide and rule tactics run deep, harking back to the days of empire.
One wonders what other devillish plans the Whitehall mandarins are hatching here and now!
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#353 forfar-loon
"these devious plans show the truth."
Or, as some on here would have us believe (even in the face of irrefutable proof!) it's a load "myths and lies"!!
I am still waiting for an answer (#344). What were the proposals to "prevent Scotland laying claim to the North Sea reserves in the event of independence."?
I'd like to hear what a foreign government based in London would have done to prevent an INDEPENDENT Scotland claiming its right to its own natural resources. So far there are no takers amongst the big brave Unionists here on that one!
Maybe they don't like to think about it because it brings them face to face with the ugly truth about their beliefs?
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forfar-loon @ 353
I am sure you are right about the UK civil service using every means at their disposal - fair or foul - to prevent the Scottish people achieving self-determination, and the stuff coming out now about the dirty tactics employed in the 1970s to prevent Scottish independence is a guide to the kind of things Gordon Brown is probably doing as we speak.
Scottish oil revenues , the potential loss of the anachronistic permanent seat on the Security Council of the UN, and the sheer terror felt by the English establishment at having to cope with policing a land border with another state (or - worse - having to co-operate with a foreign government over whom they have no control on issues such as policing, immigration etc) are some of the reasons for their opposition - despite the fact that (probably) a majority of Scots would go for independence if they were (a) not brain-washed into believing that Scotland cannot cope on its own and (b) allowed to vote on the subject
The same (minus the oil revenue) applies to Wales.
But, N Ireland - I think the UK Government would happily walk away from them, even though the majority there want to be part of the UK. They have no oil, cost a fortune to run, the Government perceives that a break up there would not jeopardise the Security Council position, and best of all Whitehall would not have to cope with any land borders anymore.
I attended a dinner party some years ago attended by a former Conservative MP who openly said that the long term aim was 'one island of Ireland' and 'one island of Britain'. Thankfully, politics have got in the way of a betrayal of N Ireland, but Scotland - you will have a fight on your hands to get independence. As an Englishman who favours the healthy relationship that would eventually flow from an independent England and an independent Scotland within the EU, I wish you well.
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#353 forfar-loon
"the civil service is primarily England's civil service, the priority being to look after England's interests"
Actually, the powerful people who run the UK don't do it in "Englands interests", in the way we think about it. They don't give a damn about any of England north of Watford either.
While they may use the term "England", they actually mean the power elite of the UK who dominate London and the South East (and I suspect that's who you mean as well).
The UK balance of payments was in such dire straits in the 1970's due to mismanagement of the economy under the Civil Service used by successive Governments, that losing the oil revenues (which they were simply using to plug the hole in a dysfunctional economy) was essential to them.
Of course, they lied and cheated. That's how the Great British Empire lasted so long!
Let's not, however, tar all our English cousins with that same brush - especially those in the North of England who didn't have the foresight to fight centralism in London.
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#329 fourstrikes
"Further to #315, I guess all us shocking lefties who support independence had better just knuckle down and shut up, eh?
Nats want support, but from the *right kind* of people. That means people who earn from 35k up (not those horrid dole scroungers and people who just can't rise above their positions to become a super winnah at 90k pa).
Interesting, and saddening."
Your support for independence has never been an issue for me, except in that an independent Scotland all views can and should be heard - that's the beauty of it.
Yes, I think you are wrong, but you think I am wrong. Good, we can have some healthy constructive debate - therein the corect answers lie.
Your last paragraph reduces my stance to a steroetype and causes you to look bad, not me.
I urge you to look at it again, see your bitternes. Yes, I took offence at your slants on me and it was probably the way you did it rather than what you said if the truth be told. It was unwarranted I thought.
However, why should it be a problem if you take me like that. I shouldn't be so sensitive to insults. I cannot complain if you aren't kind, as why should you have to be - you don't have to.
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#352 oldnat, really good question, thank you :) I think a lot about this and came to the conclusion, no. (Alright, I could perhaps put my leisure hours to better use.)
The best use of what is laughingly known as "parliamentary democracy" is to permit the spread of socialist ideas, but it's not a workable end in itself. It will always lead to corruption - I think you could walk into Parly a socialist and walk out again a committed member of the ruling class. It's happened many times before! Even Brown was a socialist of sorts in his youth.
Socialists may work best in opposition, showing (and I say this a lot, sorry) "another world is possible".
Remember the discussion about a Scottish Soviet? I would still like to see that ;)
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#355 SuperJulianR
"the stuff coming out now about the dirty tactics employed in the 1970s to prevent Scottish independence"
You've misunderstood the story. It isn't about their dirty tactics to prevent Scottish independence. It's about their dirty tactics to prevent Scotland claiming a right to its own natural resources IF it became independent. That's not the same thing. They were talking about what they would do to stop Scotland benefitting from its own wealth if it was an independent country. That is a plot worthy of a hostile foreign power who wants to see Scotland on its knees.
In the face of such obvious hostility it is easy to see why some Scots would see the Union as a bad thing for Scotland. Of course, being anti-Union is immediately interpreted as hatred for the English. If the plotters were English and they were acting out of a desire to promote England's interests at the expense of Scotland's, then rejection of the Union is justified.
It is insulting and offensive to have people come on here and try to tell us - in the face of irrefutable evidence - that Scotland's best interests were being served by these clearly vindictive English civil servants and politicians. We often make it clear that being a Scottish Nationalist doesn't mean you hate the English, but in the face of evidence like this, you begin to wonder why we shouldn't!
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#357 AW, I reread my posts. We hit off on the wrong way, also I admit I can be a bit mischievious ;) but I'd like to apologise to you for my tone. Being called a scrounger doesn't bring out my fun side, but then I had a pop at you too. I should not have done that.
Partly I am a bit clumsy with words and partly my class warfare side is always close to the surface, but this is a blog not fighting in the streets! I will try and phrase my posts better in the future. That way I can hopefully get my point across without people feeling personally attacked. So, I am sorry that I made you feel that way.
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further to 355
...even a cynic like me would not have predicted 12 months ago that the UK Government would manage to shift effective control of Scotland's two leading Banks to London within months of the SNP taking control of the Scottish Government.
They moved even quicker this time than they did over the oil in the 1970s.
Scotland is playing with dangerous and ruthless people.
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fourstrikes,
I don't quite understand your reference (in #351, in response to #345) that working class in some way can be substituted for worker?
Are the ruling class incapable of being workers?
Can the middle class be workers, or rulers?
Did you get your education from the old Frost Report sketch, wherein Messrs Corbett, Barker and Cleese stated their "place" in the natural order of things?
You seem to forget the social mobility (in any direction, Mr Inglehart), which people can undertake in these times. To use your standard, I am working class, despite having no inclination to be so; if I had to describe myself as anything, it would be upstart made good, by more luck than good judgement.
To ask me to subsidise, through increased taxation, beyond the levels which would decrease my take-home earnings to that of yours, is to betray the ambition of people to aspire towards a better standard of living for themslves and their nearest and dearest.
All people aspire to make life better for themselves and their families, in the first instance. To their friends and colleagues in the second and for some, to the betterment of mankind.
You seem to paint all of the above as somehow betraying their fellow "workers".
This blog is mainly concerned with political events and discussion thereon, with reference to Scotland. Your beliefs do not reflect this; as you say, you are an "internationalist". In that context, how can you support "Independence" for Scotland? The very idea is against the theories you claim to advocate for all!
Perhaps you can enlighten me?
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329. At 1:30pm on 14 Feb 2009, fourstrikes wrote:
Further to #315, I guess all us shocking lefties who support independence had better just knuckle down and shut up, eh?
Nats want support, but from the *right kind* of people. That means people who earn from 35k up (not those horrid dole scroungers and people who just can't rise above their positions to become a super winnah at 90k pa).
Interesting, and saddening.
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A lot of higher earners are worried about an independent Scotland, since the SNP are basically a left wing party. As was noted on a previous topic by me and a couple of others, the greatest danger to an independent Scotland is its transformation into a socialist state. Very possible with having an old style Labour party up here and an SNP that has some very left-wing members.
If Scotland becomes independent, taxes will likely stay fairly high to start with, due to the costs associated with the change of status. The oil revenue is not going to suddenly transform the Scottish Treasury into a goldmine.
The SNP has a lot of work to do yet. The release of these recent documents are not exactly going to cause a stir to be honest. Many people are either not interested or don't understand the implications of what was suggested by these documents.
Alex is going to have to be careful with his communication here. He seems to be playing the angry man again. OK, have a quick snipe but leave it there and focus on what can be done in the future. Too much emphasis is put on historical events.
People want to know what WILL happen, not what has gone before.
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#356 oldnat:
Actually, the powerful people who run the UK don't do it in "Englands interests", in the way we think about it. They don't give a damn about any of England north of Watford either.
While they may use the term "England", they actually mean the power elite of the UK who dominate London and the South East (and I suspect that's who you mean as well).
Indeed! You know me well!
#355 SuperJulianR:
Regarding Northern Ireland you make valid points - I just didn't want them to feel left out ;o)
That said, I'm sure if a united Ireland ever comes about that the London beaks will be scheming away trying to undermine it!
#360 fourstrikes:
And there was me thinking three strikes and you're out, four strikes and you spout! As fine an apology as we've seen on this blog, an example to us all! It must be that heady Valentine's day air!!
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#362 gt-cri, do me best :)
For a start, the reason I support independence for Scotland is because I believe an independent Scotland has the best chance of becoming a foothold for socialist ideas.
Why would it be automatic that wanting independence makes one a nationalist? The Greens are in favour of independence, are they nationalists? I have one English parent, lived in Scotland 30 years, proud to be English....who thinks Scotland should be independent! Both the SSP and Solidarity want independence, are they nationalists?
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#363, Neil - the SNP is a coalition to achieve independence essentially, you need to ask yourself how could it hold apart afterwards. IMPO it is quite clear it couldn't. There will only be room for one (major) left-of-centre party in an independent scotland - I think the prospect of two is extremely unlikely.
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#363
Well Neil even I find these documents very concerning, christ if true they stink to the high heavens of total abuse and misuse.
The SNP have every right to rip into westminster on these views, I certainly hope that the Scottish labour party seconds their motion.
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#358 fourstrikes
Wow! A forthright and honest answer.
Respect! (as I think those of you less "ripe" than me say.)
Many of us, who would have been horrified by the prospect of the SSP actually being in power, thought that the presence of SSP MSPs was good in projecting the Socialist view (and thoroughly embarrassing the party hacks in "Labour").
However, a wee word of advice - pick candidates who aren't going to be an embarrassment to the movement!
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#352 - a good point oldnat. I suspect they 'real' but unpalatable answer you would get from a supporter of Soviets (Councils) would be: 'not unless they throw off the old bourgeoise titles and become "People's Commisar for Education", "People's Commisar for Health", "People's Commisar for Defence" etc ...'
"Soviet" theme is a nice argument in priniciple for direct democracy (and few if any elected politicians!), but in practice unscrupulous people - professional revolutionaries - like Lenin, Leibkenecht and Luxembourg (the last two are real martyrs - I know) manage to steer the councils and revolutionary moment toward something very undesirable.
Just think when applying "the worker's" terminology to the New Labour rightist machine: Jim Murphy could take up Stalin's old power base of "People's Commisar for Nationalities"! ;-)
That would suit old Jim right down to the ground, now where would he build his gulags?
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#365 fourstrikes
If, in 1928, Robert Cunninghame-Graham had decided to call the new party the "Independence Party of Scotland", then when it joined with the Scottish Party in 1934, the joint venture would have been the SIP, and many of us would have accepted the description of "Independentists", instead of "Nationalist".
It's possible to read too much into a word that is there by historical accident.
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bighullabaloo @ 359
The attempt to redraw the map to claim more oil for England was used first and foremost as a means of causing support for independence to wain. The UK Government wanted Scots to think that an independent Scotland would be much poorer than the SNP might have wanted them to believe. Hence the strategy of 'giving' lots of oil to Orkney and Shetland and encouraging them to ask for independence of their own - not because the UK wanted that to happen but the usual tactic of divide and rule.
Obviously, the double benefit to the establishment was that if the 'worst' happened (in their eyes) at least they could lay claim to more oil for the rump of the UK (Engalnd Wales, N Ireland)
However, the UK Government - unlike say Germany - does not really pursue wealth (except as a means to an end), it pursues power.
Now, by denying Scotland control of its banks, independence just got a whole lot harder to do.
On another subject, the UK supports Turkey's entry to the EU, not because it has any real interst in Turkey (indeed, if 100 million Turks become entitled to live and work in the UK - as they would - you could say that the UK would find an interest in opposing entry). The plan of course, is to WEAKEN the EU, and thus attempt to re-assert centuries of malign balance of power politics by destroying continental unity.
Not everything is as it seems...
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Here is a must read article that captures perfectly the now notorious ‘qualities’ of Gordon Brown. You won’t find anything remotely similar to this in the Scottish press.
Click Here
Of particular interest is the sentence at the end that suggests that the only person who doesn’t know the Browm era is over is Macavity himself. I would go further and state that it is the Union that is over and the Scottish media are in denial over it.
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#369 pattymkirkwood
I was going to disagree with you, but it's actually a very good analogy.
Stalin rejected Socialism in favour of creating a party machine with no principles (or only lip service to them) which was dedicated to taking and keeping power for himself and his cronies.
Murphy and Gray, however, have to be relegated to the status of the party bosses in Latvia - simply taking their orders from Moscow Central.
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#371 SuperJulianR
No need to explain the story to me.
I already understand all too well what they were doing and why they were doing it.
Since you seem so sure about all the facts, maybe you can explain exactly what was meant in the BBC story when it said: "The documents obtained by the Times newspaper indicate there were proposals to prevent Scotland laying claim to the North Sea reserves in the event of independence."
In otehr words, IF Scotland became independent, they had plans to prevent an INDEPENDENT Scotland claiming a right to its own natural resources. What could those possibly be? Maybe you could "educate" us all by making a few suggstions about that?
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367. At 6:41pm on 14 Feb 2009, derekbarker wrote:
#363
Well Neil even I find these documents very concerning, christ if true they stink to the high heavens of total abuse and misuse.
The SNP have every right to rip into westminster on these views, I certainly hope that the Scottish labour party seconds their motion.
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I wasn't trying to imply that the documents are not importat - they most certainly are.
However, a lot of people will either misinterpret the story, be misguided by certain areas of the media or simply not be interested. "1970s? I wasn't even born then" type of attitude.
People on this blog are passionate about politics - most others aren't. There is more anticipation about the old firm match tomorrow.
I'm not being flippant. I think the revelations are shocking, but what can we do about it?
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349. At 3:52pm on 14 Feb 2009, bighullabaloo wrote:
Yes, it deeply reveals I'm not stupid enough to see the country I was born in - Scotland - ripped off by an unfair Union that works mostly in favour of England. Tough nuts!
It is academic, financial, statistical fact that more of taxes from England and Wales go to Scotland than other way round. Now importantly, this includes revenue from Oil refineries around Scotland. This may not be pleasant reading, some may even call it ‘bean counting’ but it still doesn’t change the unalterable fact that Scotland is hardly being “ripped off” by the Union- rather Scotland is an economic beneficiary (notably in terms of per head of population spending!)
353. At 4:53pm on 14 Feb 2009, forfar-loon wrote:
An interesting aspect to the latest oil story is the clear priorities that the UK civil service demonstrated. As a Scot one might have thought the UK civil service was our civil service, just as much as it was anyone elses. But these devious plans show the truth.
Scotland has a separate civil service hierarchy, so technically Scotland never really lost her own civil service; it was merely integrated into becoming an autonomous branch of the UK civil service. So again, sorry but the comment concerning “As a Scot one might have thought the UK civil service was our civil service” is clearly starting from an inaccurate premise as 1. Scotland has her own civil service establishment protecting Scots interests at the heart of UK policy. “Devious plans”, what utter balderdash (sorry for the strong language but honestly;)), yes I’ve read the article in question and it fails to name any elected politician that provided the “devious” order. This is all utter projection on your part. Wanting something to be so doesn’t make it so, sorry sir.
354. At 5:11pm on 14 Feb 2009, bighullabaloo wrote:
I am still waiting for an answer (#344). What were the proposals to "prevent Scotland laying claim to the North Sea reserves in the event of independence."?
This is entirely irrelevant to the issue at the heart of independence today, or in the future. What state the oil fields were in 30 years ago has long since changed. If anything this recession has shown that a UK can weather the modern problem of volatile oil markets, an independent Scotland would not be able to. Scotland as an oil producing independent nation would require barrels to remain over $75, in the not all that ancient past the price per barrel had sunk to $30. This would all have to be compensated via high tax increases, thus driving importers away- after all it would be easier to export to Europe from England than an independent Scotland. This has always been at the heart of medieval Scotland’s poverty, its geographical location.
Sorry by the way I was watching the rugby, Scotland defeated, England defeated. Perhaps this is a divine demonstration for why together as a British team we’d perhaps be stronger together than apart.
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#371 SuperJulianR
I agree with your assessment of the oil position, and very much with your distinction between wealth and power.
However, I'm not sure that removing the "Scottish" banks affects independence at all. Of course, an independent Scotland would need to set up a Central Bank, but it would have had to do that anyway. Commercial banks can't fulfil that function.
Virtually all commercial banks are global entities, and where they place their HQ is less important than where their taxes are paid.
I don't know the details, but I assume that the Clydesdale Bank pays taxes in the UK for its activities here, and doesn't only pay tax in Australia.
Can someone with more knowledge of these matters tell me if my assumption is correct?
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Another thought: we might even end up like Ireland with some of Scotland remaining in the union. Its not that hard to envision, after all the SNP barely get 6,000 votes in the border constituencies!
Does anyone think that a divided Scotland might happen along Irish lines of 'Unionist' and 'Republic'. (or north -south?)
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#375 Neil_Small147
"I think the revelations are shocking, but what can we do about it?"
You can tell other people about it. You can vote for parties who were not complicit in this (ie against Labour and Tory).
It's not a lot, but as individuals we can never do a lot. All of us together, however, can move mountains.
So talk to a friend or colleague. Explain how we were lied to. If they say "I think the revelations are shocking, but what can we do about it?" Tell them to talk to a friend or colleague ..............
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It's amazing that certain uionists are using the arguement, but Orkney and Shetland are entitled to their share of the oil.
The difference between Orkney and Shetland, and Scotland and the United Kingdom is that Orkney and Shetland are not country's. They have been legally apart of Scotland and Norway for decades. Both eventually returned to Scotland, hence both are legally apart of Scotland.
Scotland is a country in her own right, apart of a political union with the other parts of the United Kingdom.
A country decides her own fate.
But I would like to take this issue to discuss something else.
I believe regions within Scotland should be able to receive slightly more tax back, based on the industries and business in the region.
For example, as oil is in the East, including Orkney and Shetland then I believe the regions in question should receive a small amount more of funds from the oil taxes because this is where the oil is based.
Whiskey, each region that has whiskey as a contributer to taxes would receive a small part of the overall whiskey taxes.
I believe it would be keeping things local, and each region benefiting from their own resources.
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#376. deanthetory
"It is academic, financial, statistical fact that more of taxes from England and Wales go to Scotland than other way round. Now importantly, this includes revenue from Oil refineries around Scotland. This may not be pleasant reading, some may even call it ?bean counting? but it still doesn?t change the unalterable fact that Scotland is hardly being ?ripped off? by the Union- rather Scotland is an economic beneficiary (notably in terms of per head of population spending!)"
Any evidence please! or just assertions?
This any use SEP
The rise and fall of the British Empire
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#376 deanthetory
Re your three "responses":
1. "It is academic, financial, statistical fact that more of taxes from England and Wales go to Scotland than other way round."
Well, it should be very simple for you to provide proof of your "statistical fact" shouldn't it? We'll still be waiting for it this time next year!
2. "I've read the article in question and it fails to name any elected politician that provided the 'devious' order."
The article states: "Tony Benn (head of the Department of Energy) did not even like the idea of Scotland’s local authorities following Shetland’s example and charging the oil companies for infrastructure costs."
That's devious enough for me, thanks!
3. "This is entirely irrelevant"
Or, to put it simply, you can't or won't give an answer, so it naturally must be "entirely irrelevant" point! Except, of course, it's totally relevant.
Embarrassing for you that you can't even attempt some sort of credible answer other than "I've decided your point doesn't matter"!
All in all, one of the least impressive responses I've ever seen on this blog.
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#378, Dean - no.
The Unionist politicians have already - at least theoretically - recognized Scotland's right to decide its future (as a whole). Note: it does not say "the people of the border's rights", "the people of the Highland's rights" etc ...
But - "The right of the Scottish people"
http://www.alba.org.uk/devolution/claimofright.html
"We, gathered as the Scottish Constitutional Convention, DO HEREBY ACKNOWLEDGE THE SOVEREIGN RIGHT OF THE SCOTTISH PEOPLE TO DETERMINE THE FORM OR GOVERNMENT BEST SUITED TO THEIR NEEDS, and do hereby declare and pledge that in all our actions and deliberations their interests shall be paramount.
We further declare and pledge that our actions and deliberations shall be directed to the following ends:
To agree a scheme for an Assembly or Parliament for Scotland;
To mobilise Scottish opinion and ensure the approval of the Scottish people for that scheme; and to assert the right of the Scottish people to secure implementation of that scheme."
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#376 deanthetory
- It is academic, financial, statistical fact that more of taxes from England and Wales go to Scotland than other way round. -
Care to specify how, where and when and your sources
- Now importantly, this includes revenue from Oil refineries around Scotland. -
Again specification would be pleasant, if not esential.
- This may not be pleasant reading, some may even call it ?bean counting? but it still doesn?t change the unalterable fact that Scotland is hardly being ?ripped off? by the Union -
Please demonstrate this fact with sources.
- rather Scotland is an economic beneficiary (notably in terms of per head of population spending!) -
and there was me thinking London was the main beneficiary of per head of population spending but I'm sure you will be able to show us your unimpeachable source for this factoid?
If you can't source your assertions then we must take you as another bigmouth. There is nothing wrong in making assertions but they should not be confused with facts.
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DeantheTory:
#376.
"(notably in terms of per head of population spending!)"
I'd like to point out, on average, Scotland gains more per head in spending. On average... Northern Ireland receives more and London and the South East gains more. The losers are the north of England.
The system is wrong. For some reason Britain decides to take money from the poorest parts and return even more money back into the places that has it in the first place.
How do we manage to come to the conclusion that one person somewhere is worth more then the other elsewhere?
However do not spin information around. Scotland does not receive as much as other parts of the country.
"?Devious plans?, what utter balderdash (sorry for the strong language but honestly;)), yes I?ve read the article in question and it fails to name any elected politician that provided the ?devious? order."
But the London Government has prevented information from entering the public domain concerning Scotland.
The McCrone Report?
Along with the Freedom of Information Act, it was also discovered that the British Government used MI5 agents to keep tabs on SNP members and to undermine the pro-independence movement.
It appears to be seen that overwhelming evidence indicate that we have no reason to doubt the evidence recently revealed.
I would also like to point out the Conservatives have not attempted to deny the report as false altogether. I believe the Tory's are ignoring the report because of how old the information is, opinions have changed (maybe).
"Scotland as an oil producing independent nation would require barrels to remain over $75, in the not all that ancient past the price per barrel had sunk to $30. This would all have to be compensated via high tax increases, thus driving importers away- after all it would be easier to export to Europe from England than an independent Scotland."
At the moment we would need the price of oil to be over 60 dollars at least. However as our own independent ountry, with our own Government controlling the finance we will have the chance to invest in alternative business and to decide our own spending plans and our taxes.
In the future we may have a surplus, then who cares about the price of oil?
Also as America uses about 20 percent of the worlds resources annually, and they are hard hit by the recession, it would be foolish to assume that price will remain 30 dollars once the recession is over, and all major economies are back to normal growth.
If you take a look at the amount of oil produced world wide and the amount bought you will see that there was not that much oil left over...
It would not take much for that to worsen, especailly when militants are blowing up pies in Nigeria, America and Iran are always seconds from war, and other suppliers are not trustworthy.
"Perhaps this is a divine demonstration for why together as a British team we?d perhaps be stronger together than apart."
I hope you are not suggesting that you would overcome the majority of Scot's in their stance against a single British Team for sports...?
Bring it on, more Scots feel Scottish and may not appreciate having 'Britishness' thrown down their throats.
Before you mention the British Lions, ever seen them represent us at the world cup? No...
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"It is academic, financial, statistical fact that more of taxes from England and Wales go to Scotland than other way round. Now importantly, this includes revenue from Oil refineries around Scotland. This may not be pleasant reading, some may even call it ?bean counting? but it still doesn?t change the unalterable fact that Scotland is hardly being ?ripped off? by the Union- rather Scotland is an economic beneficiary (notably in terms of per head of population spending!)"
Just plain lies dean, there are no definitive figures - the UK Govt. has always been very careful not to produce them.
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#351 fourstrikes
I don't know that I am any clearer, but anyway thanks for trying.
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#376 deanthetory
"Now importantly, this includes revenue from Oil refineries around Scotland"
A number of points.
How many refineries are there in Scotland? ("around" is hardly an appropriate term).
Please source your suggestion that the tax revenues from UK (or multi-national) companies are sourced to the component units of the UK.
What about the oil revenues themselves? You are clearly not including these.
Since there have never been any proper UK "accounts" under Labour, or your lot. You can only make statements about the relative raising and distribution of taxes on the basis of selective use of statistics, not on any real knowledge.
You are also historically ignorant I'm afraid about the role of the "Scottish Civil Service". No such entity existed in 1707. The Civil Service, later constructed by the UK, was partially devolved in the late 19th century due to Scottish demands for administrative autonomy (in what eventually became the Scottish Office), and the civil servants currently servicing the Scottish Government remain part of the UK Civil Service.
The only part of the UK with an autonomous Civil Service is Northern Ireland, as the existing Civil Service in Ireland transferred to the Free State, and a new one had to be created from scratch. If you read HM Government's submission to Calman, they regret that step was ever taken.
A little more research on your part would be useful.
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#363, interesting!
I don't think we have an "old style Labour" party here at the moment. My dad's old Labour and he often says the party's like nothing he recognises as Labour nowadays. He won't vote for them now. It seems that many feel the same.
The SNP has left members, but they tend to be on the backbenches, not in the ministerial team. However, this new shake up seems to be taking the junior ministerial team in a new direction (and yes, a more "left" one.) It's interesting to speculate why this has happened, except that those chosen are all talented politicos.
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#376 deanthetory
Unlike you, I will provide you with an "academic, financial, statistical fact" but I'm sure you aren't going to like it.
David Leask wrote an article in The Herald of November 2, 2007 entitled: "Why the figures peddled by Scotland’s critics don’t add up".
In that article you will read a statistical fact from the "academics" Oxford Economics. Based on Treasury figures for 2005-06 they found the tax haul from Scotland was £49bn, compared with total spending of £49.2bn.
So, in that year no taxes from England and Wales go to Scotland at all! We have no reason to believe it's ever been much different in any other year before or since.
Now let's see your "statistical fact" that England and Wales provide tax money to Scotland. Let's see your named source of legitimate academic research. I'm not holding my breath!
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#376 deanthetory:
Welcome to the blog Dean, nice to have a Tory joining us at last!
...Scotland has her own civil service establishment protecting Scots interests at the heart of UK policy.
And a damn fine job they've been doing for the last 300 years...ahem!
What about UK-wide matters, such as energy for instance. Does the UK civil service deal with this, or does the Scottish branch handle the bits that affect Scotland?
?Devious plans?, what utter balderdash (sorry for the strong language but honestly;)), yes I?ve read the article in question and it fails to name any elected politician that provided the ?devious? order. This is all utter projection on your part.
Hmm, not sure what you're objecting to about this phrase. And quite why you want to bring elected politicians into it is beyond me. All I talked about in my 353 was the civil service. Is a plan not a plan unless an elected politician orders it? The Times headline writers might beg to differ!
And I think my use of devious is entirely appropriate, the answers.com definition being as follows:
1. Not straightforward; shifty: a devious character.
2. Departing from the correct or accepted way; erring: achieved success by devious means.
Oh, and balderdash isn't strong language as far as I'm concerned. Poppycock would be a different matter altogether though :o)
Wanting something to be so doesn?t make it so, sorry sir.
Ah, from the mouths of babes! I shall endeavour to remember that pearl that you deigned to cast before me...oink! :8)
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#378 dean
I'm sure there is someone busy working out that if "we" were to "drill for oil" along the fault lines for the Central Belt, you could drop a couple or four nuclear bombs down the "wells", the Central Belt would sink and "we" could just cancel the stv broadcast licence!
Too much Spice!
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#378 deanthetory
I note the same question being raised on Mark Mardell's blog. I refer you to my answer there.
I suspect the Tories would have to instigate religious divisions and support armed insurrection and terrorism (as they did in Ireland) for their to be any chance of that.
Somehow, I can't see Ed Iglehart's neighbours wanting that (even if they wanted to continue this particular form of the UK Union).
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#380. Thomas_Porter
Don't always believe spellchecker
whisky is Scottish whiskey is US
see what you get with "Islay"
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#378 deanthetory:
Does anyone think that a divided Scotland might happen along Irish lines of 'Unionist' and 'Republic'. (or north -south?)
No. And I think we'll all agree that Scotland is mercifully free of "Troubles".
But there's a job waiting for you in Whitehall Dean!
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Brian
Just looking at the timing of the posts, are you sure that this Blether is good for the BBC. Here it is prime time and all these people slaving over hot keyboards and not watching! Or are we all listening to Eugene Onegin on Radio 3?
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The poster at 376, deanthetory, apparently doesn't believe that any politicians were responsible for the civil sevice looking into ways to deny an independent Scotland the revenue from Scotland's natural resources.
One wonders what evidence would have to be laid out in front of such an individual before they finally accepted that Westminster will do anything it can in order to sustain itself - the Unionist establishment care nothing for Scotland.
deanthe tory goes on to say:
"If anything this recession has shown that a UK can weather the modern problem of volatile oil markets, an independent Scotland would not be able to."
The only thing that can be said for this statement is that it is a grotesque distortion of the truth - or to be more accurate, a complete invention.
Scotland wouldn't just survive volatile oil markets, it would thrive. The good times would see oil revenue used wisely and almost certainly an oil fund established.
Other small European countries are managing to cope quite well despite the 'volatility' this poster mentions. A volatility that will always have a long term upward trend as far as oil price is concerned.
The final argument against independence, Scotland being protected by the Union, has been blown apart by the global financial crisis.
If anything, Scotland is now suffering through being part of this Union. From illegal wars to cuts in the block grant, the Union is actively harming us.
The last defence against independence is the refusal of Unionists to grant a referendum, they can only deny this right for so long, it will eventually happen - and that will be that.
One final point, the documents discovered by The Times suggest that 99% of the oil is Scottish and only 1% is English. I have to admit to being puzzled by these figures as I have always believed at best Scotland could lay claim to 95%.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#372 greenockboy
OK I'm persuaded. Gordon Brown is definitely OFF my dinner guest list.
Why am I not convinced that he'll be much bothered? ;-)
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381. At 8:19pm on 14 Feb 2009, cynicalHighlander wrote:
Any evidence please! or just assertions?
Ok, below are a couple of links, from broadsheet sources, economist books etc, all rather interesting stuff.
My, my, I get the feeling this is another major discussion arriving for Brian's regular bletherers to get their teeth into :)
http://www.angus-reid.com/polls/view/32801/scots_remain_ambivalent_on_independence
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2007/may/03/scotland.devolution1
(a good take on the implications for our English brothers)
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/alan_cochrane/blog/2008/04/30/scotland_doesnt_want_independence
(Cochrane, a rather formidable, and able journalists article on the subject)
http://www.haaba.com/news/2008/02/20/7-93918/can-scotland-afford-independence.html
The last one is particularly influencial on me I must say.
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#385 Thomas_Porter:
...militants are blowing up pies in Nigeria
Just as long as they leave the bridies alone :oD
PS Thomas, while I'm being a pedantic a*se, "apart of" is different to "a part of", indeed it means the exact opposite of what you intend! If only Scotland were "apart of the UK" - sorry to nitpick, but it's niggled away at me ever since I started reading your posts. I mean this in a constructive way, hope you take it in the same spirit. Slainte! (as a wise man might say!)
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Here are some more of my sources,
[Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]
http://www.scottishunionist.com/2009/02/independence-is-busted-flush.html
http://www.scottishunionist.com/2008/10/independence-pretty-much-impossible.html
http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com/politics/McLeish-backs-call-for-vote.3952468.jp
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"A little more research on your part would be useful."
Oldnat, i'll take that into account sir!
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And some more:
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4158/is_20070116/ai_n17129928
http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Topics/a-national-conversation/Tell-us/commentIssue/independence/Q/pageNumber/14/desc/True
(I direct you to the rather usefull comments made on this site)
So please, do not refer to me as "just another biggot", my reasons for the union are all supported by interpretatio of facts- and yes I can russel up sources from the internet so as to allow you all to see this.
Books are also useful, biographies, authors works on the subject but unfortunately these can't be had over the internet, so you'll all make do with the lists of links i've provided as evidence?
I understand that there are some in the unionist cause whom fail to provide evidence, sources for their claims. But I am not one of them, and please do not Caricature me as one of the ignorants out there.
Yours all most sincerely, (and hopefullty helpfully!)
Dean
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#387 hand, ask me any specific questions you want (if you want to) and I will do my best to reply.
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Below are some of my book sources:
From Patriots to Unionists
Dublin Civic Politics and Irish Protestant Patriotism, 1660-1840
Jacqueline Hill
(well worth a read, it reflects the hisotric issues surrounding unionism when it was last placed under serious pressure, Ireland. A useful piece, parts can be reflected into our contemprary clash)
State of the Union
Unionism and the Alternatives in the United Kingdom since 1707
Iain McLean and Alistair McMillan
There are two great reads, with lovable analysis, witticisms and all. Well worth a read no matter your political persuasion ?
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397 greenockboy
"One final point, the documents discovered by The Times suggest that 99% of the oil is Scottish and only 1% is English. I have to admit to being puzzled by these figures as I have always believed at best Scotland could lay claim to 95%."
The trouble with guys like us is we're honest, and don't want to "do down" the English.
The 99% figure applies to oil in Scottish waters, when the division is a straight line out from the land border.
The 95% is the realistic figure when you apply international law to the English and Scottish sectors of the Continental Shelf.
Why would we want to steal their 4%? They're bankrupt and we would need to help them out anyway, as Ed Iglehart reminds us good neighbours should always do that. ;-)
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Bighullabaloo @ 374
I don't claim to 'know' any more than anyone else - I just use my knowledge of history and a close interest in the way the UK Government goes about things to see a pattern.
If Scotland had tried to become independent in the 1970s, I think it is fair to assume that it would have occurred as part of a negotiated separation. The uK Government would hav etried to keep negotations going as long as possible over international boundaries in the hope of thwarting (or at the very least delaying) separation, and then achieving it on the best terms possible for the rump of the UK, especially in terms of being able to wield power over newly independent Scotland. The same will apply when Scotland does eventually break from the Union.
Just see what the UK STILL does to Ireland nearly a century after independence: Ireland could not join the border free Schengen zone (as it wanted to) because the UK Government threatened to close the border to the North.
oldnat @ 377
You are of course right that Scotland will be able to establish its own central bank. the loss of control of HBOS to Lloyds, and of RBS by nationalisation is a setbcak but not fatal I agree.
what has happeneed is indicative though of Westminster/Whitehall's strategy to derauil independence.
Thomas_Porter @380
You are completely right, the whole issue over Orkney and Shetland having separate rights to Scottish oil was mischief making of the worst kind.
Thomas_Porter @385
Fairness does not come into the UK financial settlement in the UK: London controls the money, so the decsion makers ensure that London and the south-east (basically their own commuter belt) is very well provided for. Scotland and Wales vote Labour, and both ntaions have leanings towards independence so their support has to bought and money flows (it might be fair that Scotland gets more, having contributed more via oil but that is entirely incidental - taht is NOT why you get more). N Ireland is a special case, after the Troubles and the peace process, so has to be bought off as well.
Well, that leaves the north of England, where I live - still the heart of much UK manufacturing - we are not threatening independence, have no real power to weald, so get the scraps left over after others have feasted. Transport in Yorkshire is the worst funded in the UK, the railway line to London is in desperate need of upgrade, the M67 motorway between Sheffield and Manchester has not been completed 40 years after it was started - linking two of England's largest industrial and commercial cities just 50 km (30 miles) apart. The main road is still the A57 a two-lane mountain pass basically, and the M1 motorway peters out just after Leeds into a sixties style dual carriageway to Newcastle...I could go on!
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greenockboy @ 372; oldnat @399
Perhaps Gordon Brown will come to dinner in a year or two's time, and talk not about how he broke the bank at Monte Carlo, but how he simultaneously broke the banks of London and Edinburgh.
well, he'll need an income from somewhere when we finally get to sack him.
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#400 deanthetory
Not the most brilliant riposte on your part to cynicalHighlander (and many others) question -
"Any evidence please! or just assertions?"
Providing links to other people's assertions makes your weak case even weaker.
Now here's a clever idea for you. Provide links to the statistical data you think support your case.
Many of us here can both read and count, so we'll probably be able to analyse the data fairly comfortably.
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#401 forfar-loon
Ooh! Can I be a "pedantic a*se" as well?
Not Thomas, but many people, on this blog and others.
"Lose" and "Loose" are entirely different words.
"We might lose our freedom."
That politician has very loose morals."
(Teacher oldnat)
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Politically (in a number of areas with fourstrikes, and on everything with deanthetory) I disagree with both #404 and #405.
However, note the tone of these two posts. One shrill and antagonistic. The other inviting civilized debate.
Says a lot.
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To everyone correcting my grammer,
Gee's a break, I am shattered. Long days, early mornings... That's life I suppose.
Dean:
"Does anyone think that a divided Scotland might happen along Irish lines of 'Unionist' and 'Republic'. (or north -south?)"
Religion, which played a large role in the 'troubles' is not the same in Scotland.
I do not see religion as strong in Scotland, as it were in Ireland.
I believe people are more influenced through political ideology rather then religious views.
If it became an issue between Unionists - Natioanlists without the religous, republican differences that played a role in the 'troubles then it would be interesting.
However I doubt Scotland could be split in two. It would be difficult for Britain to hold parts of Scotland when 1. The independence supporters are democratic in their objecives 2. The world will have their eyes on 'the fallen empire'.
It would be hard to accept that Britain gets involved in a political row in Scotland, Scotland is a country in her own right and has the right to decide her fate.
I suspect Russia, Iran and other country's would have their eyes firmly on the situation and watch for faults.
France and Germany may also watch. Each side could increase their power in the European Parliament if Britain lost a chunk of population which could effect representatives....
If Britain messed up the political backlash would be fantastic for me...
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#400. deanthetory
I don't see any substantiated facts or figures just other peoples opinions which fit your own thoughts, if thats what you call evidence then a judge would laugh you out of court.
All it proves is that without us the SE England would be sinking faster into its own manufactured detritus.
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#400 Dean,
This stuff is in no way "evidence"
to support anything you have said.
1) a poll showing independence neck and neck with the status quo hardly helps your cause!
2) An old piece from the Guardian - almost two years old and showing gapping holes in the writer's understanding of the political situation in Scotland - both then, and now.
3) Alan Cochrane doesn't want independence! REALLY?!? What are you trying to prove here? He is not a "rather formidable journalist" - he is a pro-union hack, who predicted the downfall of the "Salmond Govt." as he insists on calling it in every other piece since the May 2007 election.
4) This is a direct quote from the piece you cited:
"But Professor Ronald MacDonald, Adam Smith chair of political economy at Glasgow University, believes Scotland could be an economic success story relatively quickly.
'If you include 95 percent of North Sea oil, Scotland's budget would be roughly in balance so in that sense, independence would be affordable,' he told AFP.
'I don't think it would take decades because we already have a very skilled workforce, a very good educational sector.
'There are things in place which weren't in place in Ireland.
'What's missing in Scotland are the economic levers which would help stimulate economic growth.'"
He then goes onto claim that independence would likely reverse the brain-drain, encouraging many Scots to return to new opportunities.
None of the links you included above is evidence. There is no evidence out there that can "prove" Scotland runs a deficit: as it doesn’t.
"Ex-Regio" treatment of the North Sea/Old Bailley included in old GERS/Spending "on belhalf" of Scotland vs. taxation "in Scotland".
All the old fiddles, all the old lies. Were Aunty Bella and "Call Me Dave" wrong to say Scotland could prosper as an independent nation?
http://video.stv.tv/bc/archive-articlesBackup-20061016-cameron-and-cardinal-concede-scotland-could-be-independent/
Or are you wrong?
It is pathetic to see you running down Scotland and your fellow Scots as financial parasites - while blithely ignoring the facts. This is the modern face of the Tory Party?!
No thanks.
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deanthetory -
1. All we asked for was proof of one statement: "It is academic, financial, statistical fact that more of taxes from England and Wales go to Scotland than other way round." (#376)
What you've provided is a load of baloney links and pro-Unionist opinion polls, the best of which contains a dubious estimate of Scotland's "fiscal deficit" from the BBC's economics editor, Evan Davis. Ha ha!
Excuse us if we don't believe a word the English Broadcasting Corporation has to say on such matters. In fact we don't believe very much of what BBC Scotland has to say, never mind their English colleagues!
2. "my reasons for the union are all supported by interpretation of facts"
An hour ago it was "statistical facts". Suddenly it's your "INTERPRETATION of facts" that count! Nice try, Dean, but we aren't stupid enough to swallow that sort of guff!
3. "yes I can russel up sources from the internet so as to allow you all to see this."
Except, we've just asked you to "russel" (Sic) up your sources and all we got back is a load of Unionist baloney. Where's the proof? There's nothing backing up the hot air!
4. "so you'll all make do with the lists of links i've provided as evidence?"
Er, no, I'm afraid we'll not make do with the lists of links you've provided as "evidence". You're making claims of "fact" we want proof of fact. I must admit, the pathetic whimpering tone of your reply at this point made me a twinge of pity for you!
5. "I understand that there are some in the unionist cause whom fail to provide evidence, sources for their claims. But I am not one of them"
Except you have just proven beyond doubt that you ARE one of them by making claims of facts and failing to provide evidence and sources of your claims!
There's nothing worse than seeing another Unionist apologist blown out of the water after being called on to prove their unassailable "facts": Scotland is subsidised by England, blah, blah, blah. You're not the first, and I doubt you'll be the last.
Handclapping's #384 hit the nail right on the head ("another bigmouth"). Sorry, but this is the point where I totally lose interest in you and anything you have to say from now on.
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#404, you really don't get it do you dean quoting opinion pieces in major London-based newspapers hardly wins the argument.
Bringing Alan Cochrane into this is just absurd.
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DeantheTory:
Dean, I have several questions.
Do you believe Scotland could survive as an independent country?
Do you believe Scotland can not survive on her own, and needs the backing of Britain?
Do you believe Scotland is sustainable, and being apart of the United Kingdom our success is greater?
It's important to know where you stand, nationalists tend talk about being held back, and that independence will improve our flexibility.
For example, England is far larger in terms of population, hes greater representation at Westminister and the real focus in in London and the South East as most of the population is there, and is seen as the 'money makers'.
How does being apart of Britain help Scotland when we fight an uphill battle to defend our interests, and gain support from MP's when some do not think themselves as British but English or Irish or Welsh only?
Scotland tends to be anti-nuclear and antitridebt at times, how come we still have talks between UK ministers about taking back planning permission powers, and we also have trident sitting outside of Glasgow?
Is the price of trident worth paying, when Glasgow... well I do not need to say much, but Glasgow suffers major problems (as do other parts of the country) but these people have to watch billions of pounds of weapons sitting at waste?
Heck even the generals are talking about a waste, and even still I would like to see the UK military budget increased for more conventional warefare.
Trident does not stop missles either. We're all going to be dead if ever a nuclear war starts.
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#404. Dean - "my reasons for the union are all supported by interpretatio(N) of facts- and yes I can russel(?) up sources from the internet so as to allow you all to see this."
You admit a need for serious "interpretation". Your "facts" are provided by "sources" that are not sources at all, but opinion pieces. Where are the facts? Where is the hard data? You cannot find any!
It must be the council of despair that led you to be a Tory, if you think this collection of "sources" is the extent of the issue!
What you have effectively posted is a collection of "my favourite books" or "my favourite newspaper journalists". If anyone in my first-year university sections were to submit something as flimsy as that - they would hear about it!
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It doesn't matter how many links deanthetory provides, the revelations from The Times documents will not go down well with the Scottish electorate.
A measure of that will be whether they will be reported in the Scottish press and, if so, what prominence they will be given.
One other fact that deanthetory seems unaware of is that Scotland contributes more to the treasury than she gets back.
Even the GERS report confirms this, although the figures it provides are reduced due to some flaws that still remain in the report.
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http://news.scotsman.com/opinion/Would-Scottish-oil-fund-have.4620514.jp
Another interesting article, again i'm not entirely convinced with some of the points made in the article itself. Just thought it might contribute to the conversation ;)
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I think that deanthetory has made the mistake of believing that other opinions can be cited as evidence to support the accuracy of his own.
It doesn't work that way deanthetory, you must provide facts or verifiable statistics.
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410. At 10:00pm on 14 Feb 2009, oldnat wrote:
"Providing links to other people's assertions makes your weak case even weaker.
Now here's a clever idea for you. Provide links to the statistical data you think support your case.
Many of us here can both read and count, so we'll probably be able to analyse the data fairly comfortably."
Please, why the harshness oldnat? I've said nothing offensive in the least and as for your obsessional search for stats here is a very good blogspot outlining why economic federalism for scotlands fiscal future is the only way foward and not independence. All the stats you need ought to be found their:
http://ideas.repec.org/p/uct/uconnp/2004-42.html
Please understand that it is hardly my intention to offend anyone, but do not attempt to demean my position in the hope for strengthening your own.
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#408 SuperJulianR
From the North of England. I totally understand your frustration. Of all the parts of the UK that have suffered from centralism in London, I reckon you have suffered most (though some of my fellow Scots may not agree).
It is perhaps significant of the cultural determinism that we all suffer from that I saw the name "Julian", and made an unwarranted assumption that you were from the South (If you are of a generation that remembers "Round The Horne" on radio - I hasten to add that I did not assume "Julian and Sandy"!)
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#410 oldnat - understated, cutting and funny. Keep up the good work "policing" these boards for such casual assertion in place of "evidence"; someone clearly has to.
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“412. At 10:10pm on 14 Feb 2009, oldnat wrote:
Politically (in a number of areas with fourstrikes, and on everything with deanthetory) I disagree with both #404 and #405.
However, note the tone of these two posts. One shrill and antagonistic. The other inviting civilized debate.
Says a lot.”
Which am I oldnat? Personally I believe it’s a little harsh to call me shrill or antagonistic. So on this I feel I have no need to apologize. Just because you may disagree with my views doesn’t give you the right to ‘brand’ me. It’s just unfair.
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#423, you "demean" your own position by making assertions you cannot possibly prove, and are seemingly not even trying to.
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http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/scotland/article5728477.ece
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418. At 10:25pm on 14 Feb 2009, Thomas_Porter wrote:
“Do you believe Scotland could survive as an independent country?”
Yes I do, but with a reduced budget size to spend
“Do you believe Scotland is sustainable, and being apart of the United Kingdom our success is greater?”
Yes again, mainly because more money can be brought forward for major projects, infrastructural reform etc, UK has more to spend than Scotland
“Scotland tends to be anti-nuclear and antitridebt at times, how come we still have talks between UK ministers about taking back planning permission powers, and we also have trident sitting outside of Glasgow?”
I am against trident being renewed. This is opposed to my party line but hey, we don’t agree with our parties 100% of the time.
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Few things after having had a read of the posts:
Giving some income to the local areas where oil, whisky etc is produced:
That is guaranteed to cause division. eg Oil: it is Scotland's oil, so why should the East of Scotland benefit more than the West? Assuming that Faslane is shut, with major job losses, more investment would be essential. The SNP does not want nuclear energy, so the power stations are closed with only the minimum number of workers to maintain safety.
Apart from oil, tourism and whisky, you will still need major investment to attract business. Scotland is disadvantaged with its geographical position. Transporting manufactured goods is considerably cheaper from the south of England to the European mainland. English companies would charge a levy for transporting goods by rail, and possibly road.
Talk about London "stealing" Scottish banks is a weak argument. HBOS belonged in part to Halifax. Clydesdale is owned by NAG. And to be honest I think BoS would have suffered even in an independent Scotland. No one ever pushed for tight financial regulations prior to the credit crunch, since it was the only way for banks to compete globally.
And I still think Mr Gray was extremely childish ripping up the SNP manifesto. You could do that to ALL poltical parties, since all those that have got into power never, ever fulfil their promises. Maybe he's trying to show how strong he is...........
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#423 deanthetory
I'm harsh because you put up weak arguments, with no supporting evidence, that my country doesn't (and by implication can't) support itself.
You demean me and mine.
This blog is grown-up politics. Most of the posters here have extensive experience of life - including managing, or working for, complex organisations which affect the lives of real people.
Student debating points (which rely on a weak knowledge base in their audience) don't work here.
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#378 Dean,
Remember this from the training manual? The unionist's introduction to divide and rule,
[Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]
c3 mins in.
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#425 pattymkirkwood
Thanks - but we all did the same. I've seldom seen such a swathe of similar posts demanding evidence for ridiculous unsubstantiated assertions. RE of course provided evidence (but it was usually made up, wrong, or taken from a school textbook).
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#423 deanthetory
Dean, that lots of others believe something to be true does not make it true. Are there not quite a lot of Christians, Muslims, Budhists, Taoists etc. all believing opposing "truths"? This is the problem with the Wikipedia, apart of course from the tory who changed Titian's date of death to suit his view of politics, and is part of why this blog tends to disdain Wiki facts.
The "storm" of outrage that you walked into has a lot to do with such facts as there may be are carefully locked in the Treasury as it would be political dynamite to establish the truth whichever way the net funds flow and we have bashed our keyboards many times over this.
In another field, when Nennius is silent, that Professor Alcock believes in Arthur is not proof that Arthur existed. We expect a lot of the students privileged to receive a university education.
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#423 deanthetory
"I've said nothing offensive in the least"
Let's get something straight: I, and from what I can see, several other people on here find your unsubstantiated claims deeply offensive.
Scots have been lied to by the UK government for 30 years (according to the highly-respected BBC Scotland) and we've still got to put up with the likes of you regurgitating the nonsense peddled by the UK government as if they were unassailable "facts".
The trouble is, even the most cursory examination of the actual reality shows your claim is incorrect. And even the simplest request for evidence is met with a load of pro-Unionist guff.
The most offensive part is you can't see the harm that spreading your mindless, unsubtantiated "facts" does to the people of Scotland.
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#426 deanthetory
"It?s just unfair."
I'll let someone else deal with that plaintive bleat.
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Apart from oil, tourism and whisky, you will still need major investment to attract business. Scotland is disadvantaged with its geographical position. Transporting manufactured goods is considerably cheaper from the south of England to the European mainland. English companies would charge a levy for transporting goods by rail, and possibly road.
-431. At 11:16pm on 14 Feb 2009, Neil_Small147 wrote:
I've heard this said before, but if English companies did start charging a levy on transporting goods by rail, road, surely this would in effect compell companies to make use of air and sea transport?
If this was the case our geographical position would simply be tolerated as inconvienent but not as expensive as transporting Scottish exports / imports through England.
Just curious.
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I wrote a post last night criticising in the most withering of terms Maggie Thatcher. I used no profanity or anything that could be construed as abuse yet my post was referred. This is plain wrong and again indicative of BBC bias as I believe if I had spoken about any other political figure in such a way the post would have passed.
Scotland has always paid her way. She has been ripped off in the most grotesque of ways. I don't even listen to any nonsense about Barnett or any other such nonsense about Scotland 'receiving' more than she contributes etc etc. It's all a monumental con to expropriate Scottish tax revenues in order to cushion Middle England and keep them in the style they've become accustomed to.
The idea that Scotland could become like NI or that Scotland could be Balkanised is absurd and frankly quite appalling scaremongering. I don't think any of us need dignify that one.
I am as appalled as anyone by the revelations regarding the civil service and the carving up of Scottish waters etc. As I've said though numerous times England or rumpUK will have much bigger concerns when Scotland becomes independent such as its position within NATO, its seat at the UN and voting power at the EU. I don't believe they'll set about us. They'll be a lot of bluster of course and fits of spitefulness no doubt but they'll quickly return to being pre-occupied with matters at Westminster or London etc.
I do however believe in the interim they will try to be as ruthless as possible but despite all that I personally feel it's all the last gasp of a dying animal; wounded and unpredictably dangerous yes, in need of careful scrutiny and observation yes but capable of inflicting some sort of fatal wound upon Scotland and Scottish aspirations then no. The Union is a spent force and they know it. They took our banks? Big deal as we'll start our own or use the ECB. They try to take our oil? Order an immediate halt to all MOD activity in Scotland and give them six months to remove all installations to UK territories and waters. Try to force our hand on Schengen? Refuse all cross-border immigration security co-operation until further notice. But really, it won't come to this. It will be an amicable velvet-like divorce because the difference between the present estrangement called devolution and independence is only a few but undoubtedly hugely important reserved powers and of course at last our own resources.
The SNP will not create a Socialist Scotland. They clearly want a Social Democratic Scotland along Scandinavian lines. Indeed I think you'll see Scotland gravitating much more to Scandinavia on all levels at independence as we are arguably as close to them as we are our Irish friends. If a Socialist Scotland emerges it will be because a Socialist party gains favour with the electorate which does not seem likely at all in the short term and there's no precedent for this happening in other small well-performing EU countries. We're also in the fortunate position of having a highly developed if relatively under-performing economy with large natural resources therefore, and with the greatest of respect, we are in a much much better position than Ireland or Slovakia - two countries I have come to admire incidentally. We will have no need to emulate their low tax, low business rate economy as far as I'm concerned.
Tax may be more proportional when Scotland becomes independent but then after a while I have no doubt incomes will rise which will ameleorate any concerns on either side of the political and economic spectrum. At present Scotland loses out by roughly ten billion pounds per year on lost revenues. In UK terms that's 100 billion which is a huge amount of money. And ten billion amongst 5 million would be a huge amount of money per capita and just as importantly could be invested in the Scottish economy which in turn would make us richer still. So if you're a capitalist then you win with independence because incomes will rise amongst the people you would wish to sell your goods and services to and if you're a Socialist you win because incomes will rise and you'll have a more equitable society. That's the reality here. That's the reality that galls these treacherous "people" who populate the UK civil service and who have done Westminster's bidding for decades now in conspiring against our interests.
Lastly, a Norwegian once said to me in a very matter of fact way and without a trace of arrogance that his country has so much money spare they don't know what to do with it. Imagine Scotland being in that position because it's within our grasp I assure you.
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#435 handclapping
"In another field, when Nennius is silent, that Professor Alcock believes in Arthur is not proof that Arthur existed. We expect a lot of the students privileged to receive a university education."
I thought I could be quite cutting of nonsense posts.
I bow to the master!
Superb.
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#439 bighullabaloo
You're welcome!
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#429. deanthetory
If one actually looks you are trying to defend an indefensible position for reasons only known to yourself. Things have changed drastically in the last 12 months and London will never regain its past financial status in the World and the sooner they wake up to that then they and the rest of Britain can reevaluate how they wish to progress.
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#438 deanthetory
"Apart from oil, tourism and whisky" what did the Scottish economy ever do for us?
Cue the scene from "Life of Brian".
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#431 Neil_Small147
"English companies would charge a levy for transporting goods by rail, and possibly road."
Were do you live we already suffer that up here and the islands even more.
Our trading could be more likely over the water. It would be highly unlikely that just because we live in whisky country that we would expect a greater slice of the cake, 12+ around me.
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Good evening all.
May I just say I am disappointed in the blog tonight (and I don't like it a bit.)
Lets clear things up:
Old socialism sounds lovely but doesn't work.
(Please Scotland move forward - you owe it to yourself.)
Scotland does not recieve more in revenues than she contributes.
(To think otherwise is to be at the behest of propaganda. Again Scotland, c'mon.)
We do not need any arguments for independence.
(There should only be arguments against it - and so far there are none that stand up to scrutiny, that are not exposed by it.)
There has been a lot of nonsense talked on this particular blog.
For the sake of the future of Scotland, *please* do better.
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Why are perfectly sound comments being referred to the moderators? And who could be perpetrating such dastardly acts?!
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A brief look at the Sunday papers
The Herald Salmond and Brown to meet up for first time in 10 months says little but has this wonderful bit from Ffoulkes "Labour MSP Lord George Foulkes, a member of the UK's Joint Intelligence Committee [Foulkes and Intelligence - musht be shome mishtake, shurely], last week said ID cards could never stop terrorism.
He told students at Edinburgh University: "The argument that they're going to stop terrorism is nonsense. Of course they won't stop terrorism. But I think they're very useful as an entitlement card, as a proof of age card."
5.1 billion GBP for proof of age cards! Ffoulkes has obviously lost whatever little bit of brain he ever had!
But compare the same story in the Hootsmon.
No wonder these papers have no relevance to Scotland's real political debate.
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"If one actually looks you are trying to defend an indefensible position for reasons only known to yourself."
-443. At 00:10am on 15 Feb 2009, cynicalHighlander wrote:
Point read, understood.
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#405 fourstrikes
Appreciated.
Two points.
Travelling as I have done through many classes can the working class now ever have enough cohesion to effect the revolution? Where are the factories of 50000 in their own districts that were the breeding ground for the workers movement?
If you have decided on independence as the way forward are you not a Socialism in One State Communist rather than a Permanent Revolution Trotskyite?
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#444
and shipbuilding ...
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CynicalHighlander (394),
I have a British English spellchecker. It's firefox, and I've long since shown Gates and Windoze the door! Islay gives me Islay and whisky gives me whisky...Mine's a Lagavulin, thanks!Oldnat, Thanks for the namechecks, and I confirm Galloway is unlikely to side with the South, andCareful, lest you loose the dogs of pedantry!but having to defend (and perhaps re-examine) such points will strengthen any student...
Peace, siblings
ed
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BTW, I confidently predict Galloway will stand with Scotland, even though historically she has had more to do with Cumbria and Ireland than with Strathclyde and Scotland proper, and, until a couple of centuries ago was a Welsh-speaking area....The Gallovidians were fierce warriors who fought naked and were sent out in front....
Peace, now, and
Slainte!
Marshes to the East, hills to the North and the sea as the only 'easy' road...the secret kingdom.
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First time contribution:
I am confused a bit having read the blog tonight.
Can someone give me a link to stats websites about Scots contribution to Mssrs Broon, Darling?
As for the unionist representative 'deanthetory'- is this typical of all unionists?
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#444
and textiles! ... ... oh, allright.
Paisley shawls.
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#444
Off to bed now before I get a John Cleese look from oldnat!
Good Night.
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#451 handclapping
... and biotech and chemicals ....
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... and energy production and seafood, and high value meat products ....
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Aye_write:
I don't know about old socalism being unworkable and all of that stuff, but is all nationalization bad?
Is there a case to be made for nationalizing certain 'vital services'?
I speak as someone deeply concerned with my energy bills...;)
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#458
... hot air ... ((8-[
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British Economy is on the Brink,
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financetopics/recession/4331623/British-economy-is-on-the-brink.html
"The most humiliating verdict came from the outspoken US investor Jim Rogers. He said: 'Sell any sterling you might have. It's finished. I hate to say it, but I would not put any money in the UK.'"
"Crispin Odey, one of London's best known hedge fund managers, said: 'The government is still in denial about where we are. The country is bankrupt and sterling is under huge pressure.'"
"The Bank of England says the average ratio of debt to equity within British banks is more than 30 to 1. In other words, the bank balance sheets are roughly 440 per cent of Britain's GDP.
As a result, the government is too small to help, in trying to bail out the banks, is in danger of chucking not just good money after bad but the entire economy after the banks."
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#454 stirling
The point is that there are no reliable stats. If there were they would be political dynamite so any that there are, are kept under wraps.
Dean is a newbie too and not very experienced but after tonight probably a lot more so. Also we don't have many tories to play with so he got rather a lot of attention.
Other unionists are much the same and are mainly in the old IBM mould of spreading F.U.D. Fear Uncertainty and Doubt. the brigadier is probably the best of them, very reasonable as he slips the dagger home.
Anyway, welcome to the blether!
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462; no reliable stats exist
I've read some of the 'goink' (love that non-word:)) about oil not realy being Scots or Okneys and all- but is this not all beside the real issue, i mean i know its bloody offensive to all scots, but i've been reading in my local stirlingshire post that oil is running out..etc... if it realy is ought the case for independence not focus itself on another major freedom supporting industry?
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been reading a report (from uni of connecticut about the case for "fiscal federalism in Scotland", brill reading (from what I can understand), but the jist of it seems that there is a case to be made for a scotland able to finance itself without all this 'london grant' guff. It seems to highlight borrowing could keep a scots economy going when oil prices fall too low, the re-adjust when he price recovers again....
all good theory.... but how much oil is under there for an independent scotland to exploit? long term, medium, short? All rather confused through lack of stats as you say handclapping.
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Just picked this one up from the Nick Robinson blog:
Blame Brown: Revenge of the whistleblower.
As the blogger states:
The blame for The unique UK Credit Crisis position is getting closer and closer to the door of Number 10.
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#365, fourstrikes:
My short answer is yes, using the reasoning that all these parties believe the establishment of an independent nation of Scotland is better to further their ideals.
If you were an internationalist, would you not be advocating the removal of country and regional tiers of government and forming the "dictatorship of the proletariat" surely? (I've been trying to educate myself)!
While we could debate on the meaning of the words and go round and round, I would prefer to ask you your specific ideas of how your socialist ideas would actually affect the Scots?
I know I may be asking for a bit much but I'm genuinely curious (I also was removed from a staunch socialist area when I was younger) to see what the practicalities would entail?
Hope you can help...
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Very quickly: oil will last decades.
http://www.snp.org/node/13893
There are BBC and Daily Telegraph articles on the subject too.
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Who's Iain Gray?
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#144 oldnat wrote:
438 deanthetory
"Apart from oil, tourism and whisky" what did the Scottish economy ever do for us?
Cue the scene from "Life of Brian".
:O) lol hilarious. He's not a Tory, he's a very naughty boy.
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440. bluelaw
Great post - probably the best I have seen on this blog.
However, I do feel you put the chances of Socialism being achieved as way too high, although I agree in general terms that Socialism, like Independence, will never be achieved until people vote for it.
Pre. the Sheridan fiasco, they had a great chance of having a permanent voice and some influence in the Scottish politics, but I suspect their behaviour during this event, and the resultant fragmentation therafter, will leave them languishing in the doldrums for a many many years to come.
Of course circumstances can change and the present economic climate would normally offer them a great platform from which to make their case, but post Sheridan I can't see many, other than the diehards, being interested in listening.
I say this as one who came from a Socialist background - my father was one of those who took part in the hunger marches of the 1930's including two to London.
His generation fought to improve worker's wages and conditions with considerable success, and provided we don't revert to the poverty of these times, I can't see any prospect of a Socialist revival.
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Last week, when the Paul Moore (sacked whistleblower) story broke and Sir James Crosby was forced to resign I suggested that this could create a domino effect that would bring down Gordon Brown.
Well, the article below would suggest that the possibility is growing.
Click Here
Brown's political motives were all over the Lloyds takeover of HBOS, he is also very closely associated with Crosby, the man who now appears to have set the bank on it's course towards the financial iceberg.
Brown is toast in England, the Scottish media are thus far protecting Labour from these stories, but this is the era of the web.
I'll say it again that an election will happen in May/June this year. It will allow Labour to cut their losses and rid themselves of Brown.
The UK is bankrupt, no question, the time for independence is now.
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I got moderated for likening a poster who commented "It's not fair!" to Kevin the Teenager. I really should try not to post such highlu subversive stuff. Get a grip BBC.
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I will go through these backwards, and hope I answer any questions to the best of my ability, if I do not please let me know. I'm a bit self educated when it comes to politics so I sometimes don't express myself as clearly as I would like.
#470 Sheneval
You make a very valid point there. I am extremely sorry about the whole Sheridan business for more reasons than I can count. It damaged the socialist movement in Scotland badly at exactly the time it was most needed. FWIW there are good socialists and excellent comrades on both side of the argument - I wish it had never happened. But it has and caused a huge mess and a LOT of ill feeling....we socialists now need to step up to the plate, put animus and anger aside and present a real alternative. I think we're working towards getting there, by nontraditional means.
#466 gt cri
That's interesting that you believe all those parties to be nationalists, I wonder if we're working off the same definition of nationalist? What's yours?
Regarding the dictatorship of the proletariat, well that's the ultimate aim (I advocated here before for a Scottish Soviet!) but I think we might have to take different steps than in the past to achieve it. Already am advocating removal of one tier - we can lose Westminster, surely :)
What I think socialism can do for the Scots, for a start we live in a nation with HUGE distinctions between rich and poor. It comes to an extreme in areas which large swathes of England know nothing of. We're losing so many people to a poverty trap with no solutions in sight except radical ones. Moving into a recession, these areas will be BADLY hit, even more than they are already.
We can't keep playing the same old game and just *expecting* Scots to ride on through. Capitalism creates boom and bust, and people are going to keep on getting hit - if we want a nation where we're a' Jock Tamson's bairns we need to embrace radical answers for breaking out of that cycle. Otherwise, expect gated communities for the rich and an angry and resentful underclass.
Also, I think often and fondly about our brothers and sisters in the working class across the world. We *can* provide an example in Scotland that people look to in hope and we *can* reach out a hand to our comrades in the rest of the UK encouraging them to embrace the revolutionary change they need. But we can't do that when we're trapped inside an UK system which is going to see the Tories elected in the next cycle. That just means more poverty and pain for Scotland, as New Labour has seen fit to do.
So I think our independence could prove a great positive for the rest of the UK. We have a chance to be an example which is pretty much unique to Scotland. I want us to take it.
(hope this makes sense).
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445. At 00:34am on 15 Feb 2009, cynicalHighlander wrote:
#431 Neil_Small147
"English companies would charge a levy for transporting goods by rail, and possibly road."
Were do you live we already suffer that up here and the islands even more.
Our trading could be more likely over the water. It would be highly unlikely that just because we live in whisky country that we would expect a greater slice of the cake, 12+ around me.
--------------------
I live south of Glasgow, and I know that transport costs would be higher the further north you go. Shipping is only cost effective if there is the bulk to transport.
I think we need to take a step back here from the charging to independence for a second or two. Reading through the multiple posts, there are potential issues rising between nationalists already, and that is not good.
For example: socialism. For certain elements on here read "communism". Doesn't work if you want a free market. This is not Venezula.
Regional differences. These are rising now that people realise that independence is a possibility. There is a north/south and east/west divide in Scotland, like it or not.
The worry is that all those in favour or independence are being nice to each other, simply in order to achieve the ultimate goal.
But what happens AFTER independence?
Labour won't fracture, but the SNP most likely will, and some will make Tommy Sheridan appear almost Conservative!
I'm in favour of voting for the SNP - but not for independence just yet. I don't think our MSPs are mature enough politically and too many on all sides don't appear to appreciate the level of responsiblity they have.
It's pretty easy sailing at the moment, with Labour on the rocks and having a totally ineffective leader up here.
But I'm wondering if Labour is holding back on a big gun until after the next general election. Brown will be ditched, that I have not doubt about. Once he is out of the way the focus will be on hurting the SNP. That is easier to achieve when you have removed the biggest liability. Mr Gray is not the man to do so, but the ripping up of the SNP manifesto - childish as it was - may be the first move in a long campaign.
My fear is that the SNP leadership is still focused on the short term, ie independence within a couple of years.
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#450 hand, two excellent points. I assure you that I and others like me, think of these things a lot.
Naturally you're 100 percent correct that we haven't the old factory base that we had in the era of Red Clydeside. However there's still a massive working class in Scotland (think call centres for just one example! I'm related to three call centre workers (my siblings and one of their fiancee) and worked there myself for a bit, there's huge discontent!) Just because the nature of the working class has changed, it doesn't mean the existence of the working class has.
As for me being on the tankie side of the equation, not the Trot side (we prefer -ist to -ite, but it's all cool) again this is an internal debate within the movement. It comes up to two things.
First, the original Socialism In One Country argument is associated with the idea that this would happen in an agricultural nation and wouldn't spread elsewhere until everyone was ready. Scotland is an industrialised First World nation, and if we became socialist, we wouldn't need to strengthen ourselves internally and protect the borders. We could be a beacon and encourage the working class across the world to rise up, because we are heading into bad times. We wouldn't knuckle down and say "well we're protecting our borders" we would be actively revolutionary.
Second, Trotsky's belief in permanent revolution was to do with sustaining the revolution and emancipating everyone. If it remains in one country, isolated and shut up, it becomes as sick as North Korea and about as much fun to live in. We're at such a level of globalisation now that could not be imagined back in the day...as the uprisings in various countries take heart from other movements, so I'd hope an independent Scotland would give heart to the world.
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Neil,
Just for a moment, examine the assumptions in that statement:1. That we all know what "free market" means.
2. That we all agree that we want a "free market"
3. That such a thing exists, or is even possible.
4. That the people of Venezuela are all totally misguided in their democratic behaviour....
It reminds me a bit of the knee-jerk acceptance that "protectionism" is unadulterated evil, without any questioning of from where the anti-protectionist propaganda is coming - the globalists, among whom the giant multinational trading companies are dominant...Well, they would say that, wouldn't they?
Some "protectionist" thoughts on which to ponder...and some thoughts on Private Property and the Common WealthSo, I, for one, do not regard efforts to protect our local, regional or national interests to be inherently evil or even misguided. When there are wolves prowling, we don't leave our children unprotected, do we?
Peace and clear thinking
ed
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#368 oldnat
Yeah, that whole business was messy as heck. There's no way to excuse it, really. So I can't do but I agree with your comment!
#369 what's wrong with people's commissars? The name's unwieldy nowadays, but we can change that. And yeah, I agree Liebknecht and Luxemburg were martyrs.
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Neil_Small147:
It was my idea for regions to receive slightly more based on the companies/industries there.
I do understand this will create gaps, it's suppose to.
Realistically, it is Scotland's oil. However all of Scotland is not as wealthy as the oil workers based in the East.
In that sense allowing the East to have slightly more from the pot from the oil taxes would allow these regions to benefit from their own business and to invest in the way that they see best.
There would still be alot of money in the pot, because I am only talking about givign these regions extra resources based on the business there to reinvest for these industries.
Then we can use what is left for projects all around Scotland. Hopefully better transport to link Scotland together better.
DeantheTory:
I see your arguement that, "Apart of Britain we will have more to spend as Britain together makes more money."
I am not disputing this, Britain dioes make more, but the attention is based in London and the South East and then for Scotland to receive extra money from the pot, won't others have to loose out in order for that to happen?
You talk about large projects, didn't the Tories decide that a certain train should not go to Scotland...?
But interesting enough... the CommonWealth Games and the London's Olympics...
Perhaps you can tell us, who is funding these?
Money has been diverted to fund the Olmpics, which so far has not benefit Scotland. I believe only 2-3 percent of contractors are Scottish based have been hired... but how much money from Britain has been diverted for the CW Games?
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-476. At 1:30pm on 15 Feb 2009, Ed Iglehart wrote:
"there are wolves prowling, we don't leave our children unprotected, do we?"
----
Its hard to honestly argue against such sentiment, there might perhaps be a case for subsidy for local transport links (whether by sea, land, rail)- as these are vital for the rural north, and these infrastructures will find it exceptionally difficult to 'compete' on a commercial basis for profit. (I might be wrong, but I do not think such subsidy exists for these northern links...can someone update me on this?)
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But, amid all the sound and fury, perhaps the most intriguing question, long term, came from Annabel Goldie of the Tories.
What, she asked, happens to council tax now?
----
Isn't this question too relevent, common sense to be said by a tory 'deanthetory'?
Although I agree something must be done now to replace council tax (and i'm old enough to remember what came before it!)
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Any differences we have, however marked they are at present or in future are not reason enough for us not to become independent. In fact independence will undoubtedly bring the political decision-making process closer to all Scots and therefore is the best paradigm within which we can solve these problems. It's up to us to confront these problems and not somehow kid ourselves that Union tempers them when really all it does is ignore them.
RumpUK will co-operate with us. We'll still be a good and expanding market for their goods and services and they'll remain a good market for us to sell our goods and services too - including of course as the EU's largest oil producer our oil and increasingly as a potential world leader in this area our renewables too.
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479. At 1:59pm on 15 Feb 2009, Thomas_Porter wrote:
"but the attention is based in London and the South East and then for Scotland to receive extra money from the pot, won't others have to loose out in order for that to happen?"
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The money won't come out of London's share of the national treasure! Is the poor north of England, northumberland that always looses out when Edinburgh and London go to-to-to ;)
Mind you 13% of people live in the greater london area, this does not immediately mean London ought to get 13%+ share however. Allocation in this man's opinion should be allocated by need, rather than pride of standing (I refer to the London ego)
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#474. Neil_Small147
"My fear is that the SNP leadership is still focused on the short term, ie independence within a couple of years."
The sooner the better as it can't be any worse than being dictated to by these greedy guys.
The banks' reverse takeover of Britain
Banks couldn't care less who does the work as long as they are alright.
Foreign worker employment rises
Capitalism as Communism are both flawed systems that will work in the initial stages until mans inherent greed takes over and like any addiction will increase over time.
Thanks to Ed for his explanations and links.
People worry about the economy and this and that could I suggest that they bring Global warming 'underestimated' further up the agenda as no amount of money will stop it.
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474. At 12:51pm on 15 Feb 2009, Neil_Small147
Aye Neil, you do let your guard down from time to time, but you have never fooled me.
Brandish the weapon of divide and rule through FUD well don't you? Pit the enemy against itself and all that...?
Keep sticking your heads out, it's good to watch you squirm.
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#463, Yes no-doubt your local paper would spread such nonsense stories. The truth is there is at least as much oil left in the north sea, as has been extracted.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/7435016.stm
& that is to overlook the possibility of the opening of Scotland's "Atlantic fields" when oil is becoming a scarcer commodity in global terms.
Remember unionists have been using the line "the oil is running out from the 1970s", all the while using it to bolster the British economy. Why on earth no-one thought to use the surplus rather than put it right into running costs to maintain the British state - displays the absolute incompetence of the imperial capital (as an institution).
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
pt1.
New Element Discovered
A major research institution has recently announced the discovery of the heaviest element yet known to science.
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pt2.
The new element has been named *Governmentium*. Governmentium (Gv) has one neutron, 25 assistant neutrons, 88 deputy neutrons, and 198 assistant deputy neutrons, giving it an atomic mass of 312.
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pt3.
These 312 particles are held together by forces called morons, which are surrounded by vast quantities of lepton-like particles called peons. Since Governmentium has no electrons, it is inert. However, it can be detected, because it impedes every reaction with which it comes into contact. A minute amount of Governmentium can cause a reaction that would normally take less than a second to take over four days to complete.
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481. At 2:06pm on 15 Feb 2009, stirling_dweller wrote:
Isn't this question too relevent, common sense to be said by a tory 'deanthetory'?
Ha, nope Annabel is a down to earth gal. I remember at the last conference at the air race course she went on a ride with some bikers 'harley davidsons' or something...
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pt4.
Governmentium has a normal half-life of 4 years; it does not decay, but instead undergoes a reorganisation in which a portion of the assistant neutrons and deputy neutrons exchange places. In fact, Governmentium's mass will actually increase over time, since each reorganisation will cause more morons to become neutrons, forming iso-dopes.
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An interesting move by Cameron on the issue of devolution, the future relatioinship between Holyrood and Westminster etc:
http://www.sundaypost.com/postindex.htm
Note article 'i'll mend split with Holyrood' and the other one 'I will listen to the people of Scotland'....
Pity Lady T, amd Mr Major didn't previously, and Blair & Brown don't still.
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#480, Dean the northern links are subsidised, but not under the same conditions as the Road Equivalent Tariff (which upset a number of MSP - including Tavish Scott). What no-one mentions is that if the RET was extended to cover Orkney and Shetland - those using the link would actually pay more than they currently do, due to the large distances compared to other Scottish ferry links.
Here is a link to a piece on the freight subsidy for goods heading to Shetland,
http://www.shetlandmarine.com/2008/05%20Oil%20&%20Shipping/shetland_line_wins_freight_subsidy.htm
A pre-devolution (1998) link in which Henry McLeish explains the system of passenger subsidy in place,
http://www.parliament.the-stationery-office.com/pa/cm199798/cmstand/deleg1/st980729/80729s01.htm
A 2008 joint submission of ZetTrans and Shetland Islands Council – welcoming continuing Scottish Government subsidy of the Aberdeen-Kirkwall-Lerwick services.
http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/s3/committees/ticc/inquiries/documents/JointSubmissionfromZetTransandShetlandIslandsCouncil-280308.pdf
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pt6.
When catalysed with money, Governmentium becomes Administratium - an element which radiates just as much energy as Governmentium since it has half as
many peons but twice as many morons.
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pt5.
This characteristic of m*r*n promotion leads some scientists to believe that Governmentium is formed whenever m*r*ns reach a critical concentration. This hypothetical quantity is referred to as Critical Morass.
Apologies but it wouldn't let me post altogether!
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#487, Yes no-doubt your local paper would spread such nonsense stories. The truth is there is at least as much oil left in the north sea, as has been extracted.
...It is not quite as simple as that Patty. The reserves which are left are increasingly and more expensive to extract. With global demand increasing, this has the effect of raising the cost of oil as we saw recently. (note:oil prices have dropped now due to global financial situation) However, this demonstrates that continually growing an economy is fully dependant upon the cheap easy access to oil.
You acknowledge that there is 50% left in the north sea. Globally it is much the same, which puts us pretty much around the point of peak production of oil... with a full understanding of this very important point, the future looks decidedly scary.
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"The reserves which are left are increasingly and more expensive to extract."
-498. At 3:50pm on 15 Feb 2009, BoNG0_1
This being the case is there not a point at which we can no longer extract oil that remains in the North Sea due to the costs of production?
"You acknowledge that there is 50% left in the north sea"
But how much can we extract before it become more expensive than profitable?
The problem surrounding all of this honestly is the lies that are peddled, my local newspaper ought not be allowed to peddle misinformation! It is as JFK once said "the greatest enemy to truth is very much not the lie...but the myth, deliberate, persistent,persuasive.."
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For newbies
Post 501 will be on the next page.
If you post after that, you'll always be returned to the first page - very frustrating!
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