Here and now
Herewith the latest from Holyrood as MSPs prepare to vote upon the Scottish Government's budget on Wednesday.
Firstly, the presiding officer, Alex Fergusson, has notified party whips that he will use his casting vote AGAINST the new budget if there's a tie when MSPs vote at 5pm tomorrow.
The PO is advising the parties now - to remove at least one element of doubt and speculation from the intense negotations under way right now.
He's following convention - which is that the chair votes for the status quo in the event that a new proposal fails to win assent.
The revised budget counts as a new plan - and so falls within that convention.
Constitutional theorists, I suppose, might query whether Holyrood's support in principle for the new budget at stage one supersedes the status quo of the existing budget.
Against that, it was plain that Labour, for example, only supported the new budget at that stage in order to allow negotiations to proceed. In any event, Mr Fergusson has ruled - entirely in line with past precedent - that he regards the status quo as being the existing 2008/09 budget.
Funding concessions
Secondly, where do the parties stand? The only certainty in a blancmange of bluff and speculation is that the Liberal Democrats will vote "No" on wednesday.
They wanted a 2p cut in income tax. John Swinney would not entertain that. So no deal.
Right now, I think the Tories will vote "Yes" - as they did last year. They want guaranteed new funding for concessions secured last year such as cuts in business rates.
They want extra items such as town centre renewal, action on hospital acquired infection and outward bound training for kids. In all, they want £200m.
I think they'll get it and vote "Yes".
Can Margo MacDonald be persuaded to vote "Yes"? She didn't earlier, even though she's been given concessions on capital status funding for Edinburgh.
She wants more funding flexibility. As ever, it's her call.
Gaining ground
Which leaves the Greens and Labour. They are not remotely comparable in terms of Holyrood seats.
The Greens bring two votes to the negotiating table. Labour brings 46.
But ask yourself this. Politically, which party do you think John Swinney would rather do a deal with? If you answered "Green", you win a coconut or a cigar according to choice.
For two reasons. The SNP would not want the impression to gain ground that they are only able to govern with the temporary tolerance of their long entrenched rivals.
Secondly, Labour is pressing for concessions which are proportionate to their size. In short, they want a lot.
To be fair, Labour's demands are pre-grounded in their own stated economic policies. For example, they want more - much more - to be spent on training and apprenticeships.
They want a guarantee, as per Northern Ireland, that apprentices whose firms go bust will be caught in a state safety net.
Serious discussions
Labour sources dismiss suggestions that they're trying to supplant an SNP budget with a Labour one. A Labour budget, they say, would not be anticipating the introduction of a Local Income Tax, for example.
Rather, they are trying to amend the government's budget.
There have been negotiations between John Swinney and Andy Kerr: serious discussions.
However, perhaps understandably given the scope of the demands, Mr Swinney has not yet moved sufficiently to secure Labour support.
Right now, Labour MSPs are in a mood to vote "No". Unlike last year, they will not abstain.
But then, if Mr Swinney can secure the Greens along with the Tories, he does not need Labour.
The Greens want a huge package of investment in area-based home insulation: that is near universal rather than house by house on the basis of applications.
They will be offered pilots - at a lower cost.
Which is where the negotations are right now.
I'm 
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~26~RS~)
Comments
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I think the greens actually have a sensible idea for once. Insulation would benefit everyone and would help the economy.
If the budget fails to go through, then there is the possibility of the Government falling.
That comes from a source which I trust (non-unionist I must add before the Inquisition appears). I am not being partisan nor do I wish to see the Scottish Government falling.
The Lib Dems are in cloud cuckoo land. Labour are on Fantasy Island. Hopefully the Tories will provide sufficient support.
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Interesting that the Presiding Officer intends to vote against.
Certainly in terms of Westminster, it is established practice that the Speaker does not thwart the policy of the Government, particularly on a manifesto pledge - although this is rarely tested - and this does not seem unreasonable. (There is an implied pledge in every party's manifesto to present a budget for the coming period.)
On the other hand, a casting vote should not be used to change the status quo, and the status quo is that there is no budget.
Yet again, however, Alex 'Not that One' Fergusson - who remains embittered by the fact that he is all too frequently confused with the Manchester United manager - shows a level of partisanship which is wholly unacceptable.
By indicating his intention to vote against the proposed budget, Fergusson indicates that he considers that his political partisanship comes before the interests of the Scottish people.
What if the Conservative group decides to support the budget and instructs members so to do; will Fergusson oppose his own party's position? (By his pre-emptive strike, it would appear so.)
Deciding that he will not be swayed by the content of the debate is a very poor political choice, unless he states that any and every future motion which is deadlocked will be voted down on his casting vote - it does not appear that this is what he has done - meaning that a majority of votes must be cast in favour.
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Labour are good at the huffin and puffing and would like nothing better for someone to bring the house down. Im not quite sure if they really want it to be them. In a middle of a recession I am not sure than anyone really wants an election at holyrood.
Much rather we had one at Westminister at the same time as the european elections.
SNP are a minority government doing everything thing that they can in the present circumstances. Old Calman needs to come up with real powers or Holyrood really will in the end become what Tony Blair wanted it to be ---- A PARISH COUNCIL.
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Brain, you'd make a great bookie !
You have all the possibilities and their probabilities evaluated, so you're in a braw position to offer some very profitable (to you) odds.
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Is there any chance of the budget failing to win support ? Not when so many freeloaders' jobs depend on it. A lot of hot air will be expelled but knowing on which side one's bread is buttered is not something that's lacking at Holyrood and will go a long way to making sure it goes through. An election is the last thing the fellow travellers are willing to risk; for a lot of them the fall from the gravy train would be disaster since it's doubtful if most of them could do anything else for a living that involves rational thought.
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Kaybraes I think you are right. Labour will try to be seen to be the party extracting more for this or that. The still think they are God's gift to Scotland. Yes a lot of MPS jobs could be at risk if they voted the budget down.
Also no one in their right mind wants another holyrood election just yet. Loved the Suns front page as McCaskill the chief of the puddin' race. They do a wonderful job for Labour - and wants the Tories to win according to their English editions.
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Why can't Labour be sensible?
If you negotiate, you have to give as well as take. Swinney will negotiate I'm sure, especially as the SNP do want to appear to be a "listening" Government.
I don't think anyone wants an election right now. We'd probably end up with the same numbers, give or take a seat or two.
I was only in primary school, but did Westminister not have a problem like this with Heath and Wilson?
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"The PO is advising the parties now - to remove at least one element of doubt and speculation from the intense negotations under way right now.
He's following convention - which is that the chair votes for the status quo in the event that a new proposal fails to win assent."
Convention or not, this position is a cop-out.
What is the point of the PO having the casting vote if he or she will always vote for the status quo?
They may as well remove this pretence of a vote and have a rule that clearly says that in the event of a tie the vote the proposal is blocked.
The PO should vote in favour of the interests of Parliament and the Scottish people, and use his or her judgement to do so.
Having the budget fail, and reverting to the previous year's budget, undermines all the other legislation that has been previously voted on, and reverts to a smaller amount for the purposes of the Scottish people.
If a PO is unable or unwilling to make a judgement on what is best for Parliament and the Scottish people then he or she is unfit for the job.
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And for the PO to make known the direction of his casting vote before the vote has taken place can be interpretted in no other way than: "Please don't make me responsible for this decision"
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I suspect Labour will be more interested in how the press feel towards them in Scotland at this time and, as always more interested in headlines than in policy, will vote 'No' for partisan points.
But I suspect John will get the budget through.
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It is NOT the PO's place to jeopardise the country's finances through this kind of misinterpretation of what "voting for the status quo" means. The status quo is not to ensure that the bill that will distribute monies to to our nation's services falls. This nothing more than farcical politicking by badly-advised amateur-hour politicians in which BT (by virtue of not pointing out how truly irresponsible, potentially expensive and dangerous this action is) is utterly complicit. I'm ashamed to see yet another odious example of the revolting symbiosis between the Scottish media and Scottish politicians, and their relentless navel-gazing: horrifyingly, it's one another's navels they're gazing longingly into.
Ghastly, embarassing, unedifying and scary.
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Labour won't vote "No" unless they're sure the budget's going to pass.
If it's still not clear tomorrow how the Greens and Margo are going to go, I wouldn't even rule out Labour voting "No" except for one MSP who'll draw a short straw to hit the wrong button by accident again, just to make sure there's no actual danger of them bringing down the budget.
They don't have the bottle for an election in which they'd get spanked (Glenrothes, their great "triumph", still represented a hefty swing to the SNP, and the electorate would be furious at their blocking of extra spending in an economic crisis), and it's unimaginable - though technically possible - that the Unionists would take over the Parliament without one.
The budget will be passed, without Labour. I'll take bets.
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airstriptwo #2
where will i start.
1. as Brian tries to tell you the PO is actually following protocol set up in the past.
2. thankfully we are not talking about Westminster on this occasion. no doubt you would be telling us that Westminster is the greatest parliament and democracy in the world.
3.given your love of all things Westminster maybe you would like to compare the PO and the speaker who do you think is doing the better job?
i look forward to your thoughts , sid
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Rev_S_Campbell:
"I wouldn't even rule out Labour voting "No" except for one MSP who'll draw a short straw to hit the wrong button by accident again"
Exactly, I said the same myself yesterday.
Contrary to Neil_Small147's belief that another Holyrood election would return roughly the same result, I am certain that the SNP would increase their number of seats by at least 5.
One last thing:
In Greenock there are expected redundancies at TSC, a call centre. Not sure of the numbers yet but it could be in the hundreds.
People were given 90 days notice via telephone calls today - this is my understanding.
Cairns and MacNeil, why is my home town going through the same depressing cycle I and many others of the 'lost generation' of the eighties experienced?
Scotland is an oil producing country and very wealthy - yet we experience social depravation akin to a country with little by way of natural resources.
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#14 greenockboy
The SNP would almost certainly win, but they would win a considerable number more if an election occured in 2010 or 2011. But then you can never tell with elections.
Scotland has oil and is wealthy, but the argument to your average voter is how do I share in this wealth? Yes, if oil revenue is sufficiently high then the Government can lower taxes, provide better services, lower business rates and therefore encourage inward investment etc. But many voters look to what goes in their pocket.
What is happening with this forestry lease? Reading off the impartial BBC news, it seems that the Scottish Government are effectively privatising something? Anyone know the actual circumstances here?
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Labour seems to me to be labouring under the delusion that they are still in government or that they are somehow necessary to the SNP. Not just on the budget, but one notices that they seem to be making demands of the government quite often, rather than criticising, making suggestions or - heaven forbid - accepting concessions made to them.
They would go far if they could get it into their heads that they don't have the influence to demand everything or nothing and expect the former. It leaves them both humiliated when the SNP policy passes through anyway and makes them look like petulent children.
One cannot make demands from a position of relative weakness!
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#12 Rev_S_Campbell
Keep us posted as to best odds as that's the way I see it. It's really a non story but easy work for journalist without having to stretch themselves. I can't see GB instructing his northern outpost to give the electorate a chance to show their disgust of his mismanagement.
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Neil_Small147:
#15.
"...But many voters look to what goes in their pocket."
It all depends on your type of voter.
I suspect that middle and upper classes would hope that Governments ensure they have the opportunites to further their careers, and or for the Governments to ensure their companies are kept profitable.
I could be wrong but I would have thought that lower classes would be looking at what goes into their pockets directly. Perhaps people from lower classes would hope that Governments ensure that they can learn the skills needed to move up in the world?
I don't believe it all revolves around money. It can't buy you everything, I know.
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#7, Neil if Labour were seen to bring down the budget and it somehow went to an election (that is not at all clear after all!) then Labour would be punished by the electorate for losing money (c1.8 billion) from the new budget, and forcing everyone to the polls again.
It would be the end of Gray, they would lose upwards of 9-10 seats IMPO, and the whole game of 'leadership' musical chairs would start all over again!
It would represent a great chance for the SNP to gain further support; and either the Lib Dems or Tories to start eating into the gap between them and Labour (more likely to be the Tories closing the gap - amazingly enough!)
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'They want a guarantee, as per Northern Ireland, that apprentices whose firms go bust will be caught in a state safety net.'
This is labour posturing.
If a company's going burst, they'll sack (oops make redundant) apprentices before it goes down, if this idea is taken on board.
Just one of these policies which would be a total waste of money. Typical labour, nothing constructive to offer.
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#20.
I am not too fond of the Green proposal either.
I do not understand, what homes will be insulated? Private, council? Are houses already under regulations to be insulated to a certain level thesedays? If not, why not? What about Government buildings?
There is quite alot to cover to ensure the Green proposal is successful.
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The SNP should call Labour's bluff. Call an election and let's see them squirm !
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Re 20
If as a nation we can spend billions protecting the jobs of parasitical bankers then surely we can invest something in apprentices who will eventually contribute a lifetime of tax income?
Most firms will only pay off apprentices as an absolute last resort.
Your short sighted attitude is absolutely woeful. The Scottish government were wiloling to gamble everything on HBOS but young apprentices needed when we go forward can expect to be cast adrift. Shamefull.
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I really hope the budget goes through for the sake of Scotland.
However it would be a long game win for SNP for the budget to fail. The message that Labour doesnt care about Scotland and would do anything to scupper progress will show them to be a chip off the ole block really. Useless to Scotland as they are to England.
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#21
Thomas has one stopped to use the other name "AYE-WRITE"
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Quite an interesting story in today's Guardian on the plight of the Westminster governments capital projects. Labour are considering underwriting many projects due to the reluctance of banks to lend.
click here
These PFI projects typically run over 25 years so the treasury are basically guaranteeing funding for them over a longer period than the Forth bridge timescale suggested by the SNP.
This should make next weeks discussions on the Forth bridge funding very interesting.
I see that Labour have made yet another attack on the SNP and the Homecoming. It revolves around a letter sent by Koffi Annan in response to an invitation from Salmond inviting him to speak at one of the major events on Burns.
Labour have real trouble dealing with the Homecoming, so much so that they appear to be doing their level best to sabotage it.
I'm bewildered by this tactic as I just cannot understand who they are trying to appeal to.
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#22, it would not be in any party's interest to be seen to be using the budget stand-off to trigger an election (especially when you consider the money lost, were it not to be past). The public is quite capable of blaming either side it sees as "playing politics" with the money for their essential services.
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I agree that Labour does seem to think they are in government in Scotland and can make any sort of demand. I suppose it comes with being in power for 50 yrs! Can someone please tell them to ge us peace and move on and start being constructive as an opposition. Just because they are still in power at westminister just adds to their confusion. Do they really want Holyrood to work for Scotland?
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#25 derekbarker
Your wife must be worried that you don't seem to be able to tell the difference between a teenage young man, and a woman in her thirties.
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22. At 8:21pm on 27 Jan 2009, mysteriousRiverclyde wrote:
The SNP should call Labour's bluff. Call an election and let's see them squirm !
A bit dangerous for the long term. Suppose the SNP won by say 10 seats. Come the next election that might not be enough of a buffer should they go through a sticky patch of Government.
24. At 8:26pm on 27 Jan 2009, Bramblebikes wrote:
I really hope the budget goes through for the sake of Scotland.
However it would be a long game win for SNP for the budget to fail. The message that Labour doesnt care about Scotland and would do anything to scupper progress will show them to be a chip off the ole block really. Useless to Scotland as they are to England.
The problem with long term political planning is that many voters look at "now". So, it could be Labour screw up (well have done) now, then five years down the line, as I noted above, the SNP have problems and suddenly they are the bad guys.
Look at what happened recently for example. Northern Rock. Old news to most people. HBOS - old news to most people. But it works in favour of the SNP as well. Iceland - old news. Yes, still stuff about but the shock of the bankruptcy has left the front pages.
Salmond has one advantage in Scotland - he can call the election when he wishes to do so. Don't be surprised if when Brown calls a general election (I think in the spring), Alex does the same. I don't know if he can legally call one at the same time but it would be one helluva interesting situation.
Throw in the EU elections as well for good measure.
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#25.
Have I accidently taken your comment the wrong way, or are you suggesting Aye-write and I are the same person?
I wonder what your next ridiculous claim shall be. Are you still using the Scotsman paper as a book of facts? Are you still using their story of Alex Salmond apparently claiming they would use 100 billion pounds to bail out HBOS?
You may not be aware of people loose credibility by speaking of lies, as if they were fact!
Humour me, explain your theory on how you came to the conclusion that Aye-Write and I are the same person... especially when both parties concerned share radically different views.
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#29
Oldnat, are you trying to say something about your special relationship.
AYE....AYE..........laugh...laugh...
O'behave naughty .../...
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It would be no bad thing if there was an election and the fannies got back into power just to remind us all of how useless they actually were.
However with Labour plummetting in the polls (showing at between 28% to 30% in all current polls) they would have to be densely stupid to take a chance when all recent polls show the SNP at a higher position than they were in going into the last Scottish election.
Actually I believe we are seeing the early signs of terminal disease in the Labour Party. Mrs Thatcher's major legacy was the production of an empty,principle- free body called New Labour.
In Scotland the Labour Party has imploded on the ground and exists only through its elected representsation and its influence in the press.
I cannot remember even one idea they have brought forward since the electorate gave them a bloody nose at the last Scottish Election. Let them vote against the budget tomorrow and face the consequenbces
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premature posting of last post due to errant finger on keyboard -as I was saying
The fault line in Scottish politics lies in the erstwhile Labour supporters who have no problem with indepndence and the goodly number who actually support it . This will eventually split Labour
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I don't believe the SNP want an election to trigger an election. But if this budget isn't voted through then I don't believe they would have a choice.
If an election was called, I also believe Labour would have the most to fear from the outcome.
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#30 Neil_Small147
The constitutional positions of Westminster and Holyrood are different with regard to elections.
Brown has the power to call an election whenever he wants (technically the Queen can [if Parliament hasn't reached the end of its 5 year term] accept his resignation, and appoint a new PM who can command a majority in the Commons - but that constitutional convention has not been exercised since the 19th century).
The Scottish Parliament has a fixed 4 year term. If the First Minister resigns, or falls through failing a vote of confidence vote, the Parliament has 28 days to select a new First Minister who has the support of 50% of the voting members, or the Presiding Officer must ask for a new election to be called.
If Gray thinks he can get 50%+ of the votes, then he'll propose a vote of confidence. Otherwise, Salmond can force an election, as long as the Tories don't support Labour. I'm not sure that Salmond would want to trust the Tories.
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#25 derekbarker
Look, I have been dilligently boring the bits of Fubar_Saunders on NR's blog! ;->
And as for being a teenage boy, well....I must analyse my personality. No, wait that's what they do.....OMG!
Fubar is alone in a hotel room. Hope he doesn't get very down after what I've been trying to explain to him about the struggle between his position and independence. Though there will be a bible..... :-\
#29 oldnat
LOL! If only I didn't have a unibrow and stubble and lip pearcing!
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#37
Bu88er me? if it aint fub5r's friend from the other end, well! thats a 00 * # * turn up.
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#29 oldnat
Next time could you say "a woman nine years younger than Neil_Small147". That's better!
[-not 35 'til October, but Mr Write will be 40 in September, so :-D]
#31 Thomas_Porter
I've no idea what Derek is at either.
See this post from Nick's
"fubar old bean! is one having a frictional encounter with the aye.
The fruit machine has indeed extracted your pocket of pretty green.
Carry on......chappie...chop..chop....."
Am I the fruit machine?
Is he inferring Fubar has had to pay...? (Normally it's just agree to independence...)
What does the "chappie, chop" bit mean?!
It's like a cryptic puzzle!
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#37 aye_write
What the hell is a "unibrow"? I normally understand you but you've lost me there!
Good latest post on NR's interminable post, btw. I've never reached 1042 anywhere. I may post something else there just to match you.
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I certainly hope I'm not spooking to many on this blog? but it seems to me that big brother has it's eye's on some of you lot.
Hippo in a mud bath or a ferret down a hole?
The line is going to ring?????????
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#37 aye_write
And I don't want even to think about lip piercing!
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Would that journalists like Kenneth Roy are no longer in the mainstream.
However, he may be more powerful on the net.
This on Fred the Shred, and the whole corporate disassociation from real people.
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#40. oldnat
oldnat, I laugh! It is when your two eyebrows meet at the gap so that it looks as though you have only one long 'unibrow'!
Now, go and see if you can use it in conversation tomorrow ;-)
And, thank you. Do you know I actually feel sorry for the big futtrets on Nick's blog. It's like their country is about to be 'shrank' (put it in a boil wash and looking smaller when it comes out - the disappointment).
Of course there will be disbelief. It's like attacking their manhood, forcing them to swap their Imprezza for a boring Mondeo - I don't like to see grown men (little boys!) sad. I'm stupid!
First to 2000!
;-)
#42 LOL!!! Jeez, you'd get sparks... (ouch!)
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"To be fair, Labour's demands are pre-grounded in their own stated economic policies. For example, they want more - much more - to be spent on training and apprenticeships.
They want a guarantee, as per Northern Ireland, that apprentices whose firms go bust will be caught in a state safety net."
They had how many years, whilst THEY to implement this?
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#44
Unibrow? cross dressing the issue, aye!
Whispering wilts? sing lofty.
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Scotish regional labour's crocodile tears over the budget are not hard to fathom, basically they would cut of Scotland's nose to spite the SNP. Really mature of Scotish regional labour.
Lib Dems, looks like they ae walking into nowhere for no reasaon, Charlie's missing, leaders both North & South of border are non entitiies.
Let's hope the Scottish people judge these parties on policies and preformance over the past two years and not the spin from the inbred bias in the BBC and Scottish press.
TDBs
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aye_write,
I've been following the n-r thread too and I have to say I'm impressed.
It is however slightly disturbing- it feels like you've climbed inside my head and had a good rummage round. :-s
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#48
Ka! what, a rummage inside your head.
Aye, this is becoming very in teresting.
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#49 derekbarker
"Ka! ???
You got a job advertising Ford Cars now?
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There are those who want training for the future!
Debt burden 'will last 20 years' at least.
Soup kitchen workers and managers, debt councilors and collectors these are the most likely growth industries for the future generations the longer Scotland's economy is tied to Westminster purse strings.
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#50
Oldnat, it's getting a bit marx round about here?
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=RZOlrZNIod0&feature=related
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I live in England and I take an interest in Scottish politics, is the "grass greener" ? I thought so when I took a weeks driving holiday up there by myself (I still get an xmas card from one of the B and B's I stayed at for one night !) ..... Can we send Gordon back for a bit more training ? ..... We'll pay the postage by funding it from a popular tax on "The list of members interests" in the House of Lords, this may be an ideal time to bring it in, who would oppose it ? Let's say at 90 %, it wouldn't ban them but would make them not worth doing. Just a thought while I'm worrying.
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#37 and others
aye_write
Have just been following your latest adventures in the NR blog, having had to make a space in my diary for that. Actually, I love your monster posts. Time just whizzes by. How is your keyboard standing up to this, by the way?
I think the Appeal to Fubar needs to be published separately. It may even one day become required reading in schools and find itself framed and hung on walls by the citizenry of a grateful nation.
When are you entering politics?
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50. oldnat
I hope the budget doesnt pass; there will be less money for child centered learning!
Derek uttered his first word when University Challenge was on the telly so his education was to be allowed / forced to watch UC only so he knows that ka is the ancient egyptian concept of the immortal soul.
He probably did his first scribble on a cryptic crossword in the Record as well!
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Oh, I think that was what the "Parliament Act." was for ? Are we really at the mercy of a gang of pensioners with Alzheimer's ? I bet they're laughing at the irony !
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As of the latest news Labour is going to vote No to the budget. That makes Lib dems as well. Maybe in the end more than one of Labours inept will press the wrong button when voting. As from the Greens well I have nothing to say. As far as I know all council hooses are already insulated and quite a few also have cavity wall insulation. Who still needs insulation, surely private landlords can be made to look after the property they bought.
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Just got my Co-op voting paper. Couldn't vote for any one of them, as all carried the label "Ethnicity - White British".
What nonsense to talk of British (or Scottish) "ethnicity". We're all mongrels, and Scots should be proud of being part of a disparate nation that embraces everyone.
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#12:27pm oldnat
Good afternoon oldnat.
10.33am - I am impressed.
(There was no 'laptop facility' at Morrisons, hence you cheated ;-)
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#49 derekbarker
"Ka! what, a rummage inside your head."
Derek,
Could you have a rummage around in your head and find the explanation leaflets that accompany your
#46 "Whispering wilts? sing lofty."
and the quoted part in my #39.
I honestly can't fathom them! (I don't think) and would like to get the joke - if you can't laugh at yourself you miss all the best ones, right? So, do me a favour. (Oh-oh, here comes another one....!)
I assume the latter is an inference to extramarital shenanigans?
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Just for any readers who are not political geeks (if any), the Parliamentary arithmetic is as follows -
SNP - 47 : Lab - 46 : Con - 16 : LD - 16 : Green 2 : plus Margo and the Presiding Officer.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
aye write/ susan croft, as Harry Hill says only one way to settle it
FIII III GGGG HHHH TTTT!
Enjoyed these posts very much. It really is a revelation on Nick Robinson's blog. There is a belief among some there that they have been "invaded" by upstart Jocks trying to hijack a perfectly decent UK political thread for their own nefarious ends.
Before any more of you rush over there remember the nationalist leaning citizens of Jockistan are expected to stay here with their "beloved Brian" and not bore these good people to death with their constitutional fixation.
p.s I notice that in his latest blog on tonight's budget Brian has come off the fence he climbed on to over Gaza to declare that as regards the arguments put forward by Labour and the SNP " I believe both parties are right , to a degree" :O)
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#62. derekbarker
I'm with you, man. When you're not in cryptic crossword mode you talk a lot of good honest socialism so just ignore them; too clever by half so they need to double up to make sense!
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#48. Richard_the_Rogue
"it feels like you've climbed inside my head and had a good rummage round. :-s"
Richard, thank you. I'm sorry, I did not intend to do that! Actually I do not know how I did that!
Such is the tail that wags the dog. Sorry to not have time to elaborate on that one, though 'Green light for weed' alludes to somewhat of a a replica. :-)
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#54 Al_Ford
"Have just been following your latest adventures in the NR blog, having had to make a space in my diary for that. Actually, I love your monster posts. Time just whizzes by. How is your keyboard standing up to this, by the way?
I think the Appeal to Fubar needs to be published separately. It may even one day become required reading in schools and find itself framed and hung on walls by the citizenry of a grateful nation.
When are you entering politics?"
Thank you, you are extremely generous, how extremely generous.
My keyboard is a newish one, that was an older one of my brother's before my mother bought it for me for Christmas, to facilitate my being able to study at the campus in between my two classes at university last term, Historical Studies and International Relations. Don't ask any questions - there is a question over whether I have passed.
In the past, fortunately or unfortunately, and long time typically, I have only needed a little knowledge to sound as if I know more - it is called bullshi++ing. It is a forfeit of forfeit of time. This is an error I have since tried to repair, by restoration, and fundamentally by some extent. Increasingly it has been working.
So to enter politics, I would need a photocopy of oldnat's brain, and others, to categorise and store all the data in it, as I do not know enough as it stands. Though good old friends 'learning' and 'practice' can solve that. Were it not for the leaving of my brain in a paddock for most of twenty years. Never mind.
I do not know how I do these long posts. It is all hereditary, not learned, earned, therefore, or owned or controlled. Well not so to any degree as to be manageable in a sphere which was disproportionate in size to the control I currently have. But this can be slowly acquired. So thanks be to my genes.
And I appreciate your sentiments. The fact is I am unlikely to forget them. Let no decisions be made just yet. I like to consider all the evidence like a jury and then decide.
You will probably find some more long posts to come then.
:-)
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oldnat,
Please read Anglophone's (Anglosaxophone's) last post on the 'Such wickedness' thread. Can you check to see if you have heard anything similar as a teacher. Does it seem 'strange'? I'm just a worry wart. Note, refer to his post on the 'Green light for weed' thread, if you don't mind. Thank you. Maybe nothing, in which case, sorry!
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#63 GrassyKnollington
NR has solved the problem for his loyal troops.
His new thread is on some new polisman in London.
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#63. GrassyKnollington
Thank you very much. I'm glad you enjoyed them - nothing like a female mud wrestle, eh?
:-)
I'm a bit worried about Anglophone, stupidly probably, ho hum hum...yep, probably stupid...
:-\
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#64
Cheers comrade!
The time is ripe my friend to create those publically owned industries, there is absolutely no reason why we cant have, not for profit industries working at a better rate than those that have failed us in the private sector, apprenticeship's and long term work should be a commitment from all governments.
Housing and transport!
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oldnat, I was just panicking. all's well. sorry!
call me aye_write_p**p_ma_drawers
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65 aye_write,
"Richard, thank you. I'm sorry, I did not intend to do that!"
No need to apologise, it was not an unpleasant experience.
"Actually I do not know how I did that!"
Simple. You have a gift. Don't try to analyse it, just use it. :)
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Go on Iain Grey, have the courage to bring forward that vote of no confidence. I fear you may be more mouth than action but I'd love to see the lot of you voted out.
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#67 aye_write
I hadn't realised that the "wickedness" thread was still running!
I rather like Anglophone's posts (the doggy one excepted), in the same way that I appreciate Carrots. It's good to be challenged and teased - it forces you to re-examine your own positions (why I blog, and why I challenge and tease people on NR's blog).
My worry is for those who are so committed to a particular stance that they have lost any sense of balance, or humour.
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#74 oldnat
Well, oldnat, I'm glad you took it like that. I concur with your 'mirror-like' assessment of blogs.
I might as well tell you that I had wondered if Anglo(saxo)phone's #262 "Are we all feeling suitably crushed and humiliated..." was a final goodbye!
He probably doesn't affect you, but he makes younger me think, and I wondered if he might be the type of clever person who could do something stupid. I've known it.
Anyway, no, I was, thankfully, away with the fairies. :-)
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#74 oldnat
My worry is for those who are so accustomed to being kicked around because it's in the scheme of things for them to be kicked around that they've got so used to it that they accept it. Other minorities accepted the abuse thirty years ago on the basis that it was just banter. They no longer do so, and are much better off as a result.
If the majority don't take you seriously, they won't take seriously what you're saying to them. Elementary, my dear oldnat. There is nothing unbalanced about that, but it is grim. The southern majority are humouring you and hold you in contempt whether you have a sense of humour or not.
It is the likes of you who imagine that you are being taken seriously that should be a cause for concern. If you are not being taken seriously, you are wasting your time so far as achieving independence is concerned. The Establishment knows this, which is why it is unconcerned and is laughing at you all the more. They have got you tied up in knots and loving it.
As for the recent embarrassing foray into the NR blog, get real. It's a hoot to those people. Bring on the clowns. Let's have some more of this. A nice little diversion. Chuckle, chuckle, snigger, snigger.
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#76 scot-free
My, aren't you wonderful at stereotyping people!
"those people"
The English have their Susan_Crofts and Simon Heffers, but also a lot of very reasonable people.
We have you.
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#76 scot-free wrote
Meant to be well-felt and informative I'm sure, but, I can't speak for oldnat (he can manage himself),you're not telling me anything I haven't mused over a long time ago, and probably in oldnat's case decades ago.
If you think being it so important to be taken seriously, as it's the only way to get things done, then it's you who won't be taken seriously and you who won't get anything done. But hey, I wouldn't seek to lecture anyone.
Enjoy your blogging. I fear you may need to batten down the hatches though.
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#76 scot-free wrote
PS Why would I want to be so proud that no one could laugh at me?
(That's how you miss all the best jokes.)
Maybe not 'enjoy' your blogging, but 'bask' in your blogging.
What else would you like to teach me?
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#76 scot-free
Right, I'm going to ask, what should I/we then have done differently?
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#76
Does scot-free imagine his schoolboy level stuff is amusing?
I have been contributing to this blog for sometime now. I await still some sensible arguments in favour of the Union.
Childishly trying to insult people (and merely making a fool of oneself in the process)does not qualify as an arguement
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#80 aye_write
I'm not surprised that you haven't had an answer.
In my experience, people who have entrenched positions seldom have the capability of making positive criticism.
Hopefully, I'm wrong and scot-free will make some sugestions (but I can't see any such as being useful).
I rejected the idea of standing for election (since I don't have the required people skills).
You do (and a knack of getting inside people as Richard noted).
I was a good speechwriter and strategist though.
If you decide to go into politics, we can arrange a meet. If, you are a "West Wing" fan, I'll offer to be the Leo to your Bartlett!
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aye_write
What to do differently? Stop barking up the wrong tree, perhaps? Silly antics of that nature only re-inforce the view that you are not to be taken seriously, and they are undignified. It's the Scots that you need to persuade about independence. They are persuadable, maybe. The English are not persuadable on that subject, as they will tell you, except for those who are just being polite. To imagine that that is not the case is quite unrealistic. However, if you fancy spending your time wading through treacle and playing the court jester as you go, carry on.
The first thing that many of the great unpersuadables will tell you will quite possibly be that your view is unrepresentative of the Scottish electorate, that, in other words, they know it better than you. You fall at the first hurdle. More raucous laughter. Sorry. I applaud your effort, but misdirected effort is such a waste of time. It is not only misplaced effort but also displaced effort. If you have considered this before, good. Do consider it again.
oldnat
Stereotyping has nothing to do with it, merely familiarity with the population in question. There are, of course, individuals to be found whom it is worth trying to persuade in any population, including that of England. The population of England as a whole, however, is hardly aware of Scotland, as is well enough known, and likes it that way.
As for your NR blog population, the suggestion has emerged from there that a special blog space should be created to dump all the Scottish-independence posters in so that you can all just chat among yourselves. They are joking, perhaps, but I think they still mean it. It should tell you something: some of them may listen politely out of idle curiosity to you, maybe, but, on the whole, they just wish you'd go away.
It is not as if I am suggesting anything shocking such as the improbability of any sub-nation managing to get out of the UK other than through a hail of bullets, although that has been the case so far. All I am saying is that, if you really are interested in independence rather than some other arrangement, you are talking to the wrong people. OK, shoot the messenger if you must. Isn't that what unionists do when they hear something that they don't want to hear?
A former SNP MP from the 1970s football team once said within my earshot, after he had joined another party some time later, that all those SNP MPs that had been elected then had not believed that they could achieve independence. If you actually believe that it can be achieved, do consider turning away from the English chattering classes that you seem so fascinated by and address the electorate that you need to persuade. As you know, there is a lot of persuading still to be done among that population, if you are serious about independence.
PS to both of you: no offence intended.
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Re my # 82
Apologies to free-scot in advance, if his/her #83 has positivity.
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83 scot-free
Well, that's us told!
It wasn't votes I was after. Or any kind of self-serving plaudits.
Obviously I would have joined the party ranks for that.
I did know they (NR's bloggers) can't vote on independence.
I did think the insights would be worthwhile.
I did know other Scots would read my posts.
The theory behind it strengthening independence was:
1. to uncover any and all independence arguments, so to better deconstruct them
2. test my deployment of my pro independence stance
3. other Scots (voters) would read some of it and perhaps allay their own fears, decide to become supporters or take up the cause in more active ways, up to their choosing
Hope this explains things,
aye_write
(THE aye_write :-)
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#82. oldnat
oldnat, you amaze me - my eyes are wide and tired. Just as I was crushing myself into a minute dark ball, (having read your enquiry of MaxSceptic) securely locked up in the knowledge there was no way I would ever be able to emulate such a piece, as I would like to, and reeling in revulsion at that thought, you come through just in the nick of time.
Wow, that's very,very kind of you.
What is your advice?
(Should I?!!)
PS Nothing like being told you can't to tempt you into showing you can....(scot-free)
What do you say to me oldnat?
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#83 scot-free
No offence intended here either, but you are typical toss-pot so often associated with the middle ranks of the bad PR brigade of the SNP.
I think you want us to get involved with the party and are insulted that we use our skills to 'play around' on here insead of doing our bit pulling our weight, no doubt like full force hard grafting you. I would doubt your capability to see things from a gradualist point of view.
Harrying doesn't get you anywhere. You swallow your one-line bit of advice and I might pay attention to your two paragraphs of it. You think I'm that dumb? Good, I'll never have to worry about a threat from you.
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#83 scot-free
Ah, nope, I think it's like Anglophone says, you are an anti-independence campaigner and your are employing tactics of attacking self esteem to weaken us because we are having such successful results on UK wide blogs. Oh, thanks for the compliment! Now out of my way before I just squash you.
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scot-free #87 and #88
Either way, do you see how you're not having much results?
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#83 scot-free
Ignore ravings (I'd had a whole quarter of a bottle of brew dog's whisky beer - try it, it's goooooood!). I have no particular feelings against you at all - you are a poster on a blog, so go for it.
If you don't accept my apology, you may at least cringe!
Win, win. :-)
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#82 oldnat
It's the cold light of morning.
First, thank you for your comments. (That's in bold.)
Such is the extent to the lack of my knowlege (I have never watched the West Wing!), I would not be able to even make a decision regarding, you know, whatever, politics and that!
I am not a scared of it, but is it a wise move? To put yourself up to that. You obviously thought about it (I would not have predicted your reasons for stepping back.) I'm confused (waiting in its safety).
I would happily hear you talk for hours about history, politics and whatever else is stuck in that encyclopedia of a brain of yours of course.
I am a bit stuck in the headlights at the moment. If it were a job interview I am wondering what questions you might ask of me:
Can you speak in front of a large group of people?
Yes, I have sung as Green Day on stage before... (my hair has grown back)
I can't think of any more! (serious ones). It's all a bit strange.
I will try to imagine why you, and I suppose others, would enter politics. (I couldn't even define what that means.) As for politicians I've seen, I'm not into the pitfalls of ego serving.
Well, I don't know.
What do you know?
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#72 Richard_the_Rogue
Richard,
I have been thinking about what you said, and this is my comment.
The mistake many 'gifted' people make is that they confuse their 'gift' with themselves and let their 'gift' be the overriding thing that defines them, aided of course by friends, partners, parents, whoever.
But, the consequence of that is that when it goes away for a while, or cannot be commanded, as it cannot, the crushing blow to the psyche and confidence is so critical and dire that some cannot always recover from it.
Hence there have been many 'genius' tortured souls. I put Anglophone in that category. He may disagree.
The trick, merely as I can see it, is to feel your own self and personalilty, behind the 'gift', is worthwhile and be secure in the knowledge of that. But this often gets forgotten, especially in an age of less extended families, lost knowledge of your roots, being uncushioned by your own culture etc.
Thanks for being so kind. It was actually helpful. And sorry if I bore!
:-)
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#92 Ammendment
Actually I don't think you can win against it. Admitting it is possibly as far as it can go.
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#92 post script
I think the fire will always burn, it's only a matter of time before it comes out.
We/they are perhaps at it's mercy. Might aswell have to accept the ride....
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#92 will she ever shut up
The obsession is explained through the fear that if the passion is ignored it is not known when or if it will eventually come back (potentially leaving an empty shell).
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