Choose your strategy
Scotland, to be blunt, could probably struggle by without a fair proportion of the legislation passed in her name.
That is not to say that such legislation is not frequently worthy. That is not to say that, on occasion, sectors of the populace see improvements in their lives from changing the law in certain ways.
It is to question whether the earth would open beneath our feet were a particular Bill to fail or to be delayed.
The Budget Bill, however, is rather different.
It gives ministers the legal entitlement to disburse on our behalf some £33bn for the coming year.
That is thirty three thousand million pounds. We would notice its absence.
All of which opens up an intriguing philosophical and constitutional debate in advance of this evening's Holyrood vote on said budget.
'No' vote
Both the SNP and Labour are seeking to get their retaliation in first with regard to this debate.
As you might imagine, their contributions veer more towards rough politics than philosophy - but the thought is there.
In essence, Labour is attempting to defend, in advance, its likely "No" vote.
The SNP is attempting to suggest that Labour's attitude contrasts with the position the Nationalists themselves adopted while in opposition.
The constitutional question is this. The SNP won more votes than their rivals in the election.
Alex Salmond was elected first minister by parliament. He cannot govern without the power to spend.
Is it then incumbent upon the principal opposition party to tolerate the passage of legislation which permits that fundamental function?
Existing budget
They can point out the flaws in the budget, they can target individual issues. But should they seek to thwart such a basic element of government?
Labour's defence is that a "No" vote on the budget tonight does not in itself stop the flow of cash in Scotland.
Ministers would continue with the existing budget pro tem, with cash allocated each month for next year as per one twelfth of last year's total.
But their news release on this subject rightly notes that this would continue "in the interim".
Surely it is also true that - if Labour and the Liberal Democrats persist in blocking the new budget - then Scotland would eventually lose out in that the sums to be spent would be lower then envisaged for the new year.
In response, the SNP argue that they never voted against the Labour/LibDem budget bills. They say they abstained twice and voted for the rest.
The exception is in 1999 when there wasn't a full scale budget bill: then the SNP voted against the figures set out by the then finance minister, Jack McConnell.
Core issue
But is that to suggest opposition parties may never vote against the budget?
Wasn't the SNP's behaviour substantially influenced by the fact that the coalition had a majority, that opposition was futile on such a core issue?
Doesn't that 1999 vote, albeit not strictly against a budget bill, indicate that it is permissible for an opposition to seek to overturn financial plans.
Think of it this way. Today we learned that Scotland's economy declined in the last quarter for which figures are available.
If Labour genuinely believes that the present budget plans are wrong for the economy, are they not entitled to express that in a vote?
I believe both parties are right, to a degree. Labour is entitled to seek to vote down the budget. The SNP is entitled to point out that such a vote is not without consequences.
It will be up to the voters to choose which strategy they prefer. Presumably, they will also offer their opinion on the relevance of sundry tactics during an economic downturn.
I'm 
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~25~RS~)
Comments
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"If Labour genuinely believes that the present budget plans are wrong for the economy, are they not entitled to express that in a vote?"
Of course not. I am not expecting Labour to support the budget fully, but in the end of the day Scotland, along with the rest of the United Kingdom is or will be in a recession.
If the budget does not fall through then Scotland will loose out on vasts amount of money... money that is hard to come by during a recession.
Then what? If the budget is settled later then will we not see cuts in services to make up for the money we loose now?
If this is Labour playing politics then it's rather shameful.
They are the opposition with a job to hold the Government to account. They can do this in future if the SNP budget appears to have great flaws... but I do not feel we want to loose out over the budget just for petty political gains.
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Labour continue to issue meaningless statements without any real detail, the only thing that I can garner is their echoing of the London Labour 'apprenticeships' policy.
The Lib Dems seem to have simply vanished after being laughed at over their proposal that would cut the scottish budget by 800 million.
In short, those who voted for Labour and the Liberals are not being represented in any way at Holyrood. Our media really have to start questioning the Liberal's and Labour's motives here and ask why they appear keen to effectively disenfranchise so many voters.
I predict that the budget will pass and that Labour and Liberal behaviour will be ignored by our media.
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Please please opposition vote the budget down so we can have a new election which hopefully will get rid of the Labour stooges.
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If Labour scupper Scotland's budget then clearly Labour puts party-political spite above the welfare of the Scottish people.
It amounts to a vindictive sabotaging of the people's economic well-being that no self-respecting nation would or should tolerate.
The Scottish people will take note of Labour's anti-Scottish actions and vote accordingly at the next Scottish government elections.
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Whatever they do, we need spending on that house insulation initiative. It would help tackle fuel poverty, improve the nation's housing stock, reduce our carbon footprint, maybe, and throw some money in the direction of folk doing the work of putting it in. What's not to like? I don't care who thought it up, it's a Good Idea.
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Labour can indeed choose to sabotage the Scottish budget (and the Scottish economy by proxy) if they wish. Now, how might the people react to such practice?!
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The halo has fallen down to the great leaders ankles. Bungler Broon, saviour of the western world, has returned to being a figure of derision.
Bungler's ham fisted and skewed approach to Scotland are all over this move by Scottish regional labour.
SNP need to hold their nerve and fight for what is right for Scotland.
TDBs
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A good blog as always Brian, but I feel the constitutional issue isn't a new one: I voted against the founding of the Scottish parliament because I felt another layer of government wouldn't lead to better public services, a stronger economy nor a better quality of life. Also, to be honest, I accurately predicted that Nationalists could use Holyrood to break up the Union. The conflict over the budget is really about this struggle and the SNP's attempt to assert its mandate.
I would hope if the Budget isn't supported by MSPs it is because genuine political reasons and not "tit for tat" revenge for past SNP tactics.
But this "clash" isn't really about the budget it is about the SNP-Labour conflict.
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Hardly worth the discussion, Murphy will decide what action serves the Supreme soviet best, and apprentice Gray will toe the line. Ladbrokes are probably running odds on Labour voting against, but with enough of them pressing the wrong button by mistake so that no one falls of the gravy train. As for the Libs and the greens, why oh why does anybody take them seriously ? I suppose 'cos they may hold a casting vote which neither deserve given their irrelevance in this day and age.
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7856020.stm
Labour makes the UK the worst hit of the developed nations in the world; and then seeks to vote down what little increase in Scotland-allocated spending there is!
Economic incompetence, coupled with self-interest that would shame a Robber Baron: I am sure the public could only view that negatively (despite the predictable large-scale press collusion that would occur).
Still expecting the budget to pass, whether a deal is done without Lie-bour and the Fib-erals; or some poor Labour MSP accidentally-on-purpose 'hits the wrong button' again - as the good Reverend suggested yesterday!
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#5 edjasfreeman
I don't have a problem with house insulation - for the reasons you mention.
I'd like to see what the Greens are proposing to cut to pay for it.
Road Transport I presume.
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Why would a failure to agree the budget today 'cost' Scotland £ 1.8billion?
The money would still be there but not allocated to a partocular budget heading
Failure to agree TODAY simply means the £ 1.8billion will have a delay in actually being spent.
Or is the SNP saying that the Treasury will grab the money back?
Making meaningless and inaccurate statements helps no one, let alone the politicians themselves
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Could someone explain what the Green's want to me, please?
I do not know whether they want all private and council homes insulated or not etc.
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What concerned me most about the interview with Patrick Harvie last night on Newsnight was that I used to own the same waistcoat, the same shirt and the same tie as he was wearing. Of course that was twelve years ago and I would never have worn them together.
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All,
It worked! Soon the post was marked as "referred to the moderators" and everything ceased being bold! Whoopeee!It seems I must choose a new strategy (just to avoid being deemed "off topic"!)
I discovered a way to undo the emboldening of some threads (actually worked on the "Gaza" thread).
I simply complained about my own comment, to wit:
After a while, I received another emailAnd everything is back to bold
Dearie me, what's a body to do?
;-)
ed
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To be fair, even as an SNP supporter, I'm incredibly dissappointed with their inability to inject more positive energy into our economy up here which doesn't tend to react as much as to the media's pessimism as it does down south. To an extent I think Labour is right.
Its the Lib Dems that I'm worried about in the sense that if we're going to pander to anybody to get the bill through, it most certainly should be Labour and not the Lib Dems who couldn't run an economy if they tried. Or the Greens! How on earth can these two parties, particularly the latter even THINK they deserve a say on what goes in this budget!
I'm so glad we ignored the Greens, who hopefully will be wiped off the map at the next election, and the Lib Dems must at all costs be ignored here. But things like the shipbuilding news, people want to hear things like that in Scotland, put more money in apprenticeships that Scotland so badly needs.
Honestly the SNP's economic policy has been pretty dire since they got into power. I'm not saying Labour would do particularly better, just the SNP have really let a lot of us down. If you're going to drive our universities into the ground with the no funding then at least fill the void with some useful apprenticeships.
Scottish politics is so frustrating!
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In some ways I hope that the opposition parties vote against this budget. Maybe then people will see them for what they actually are, political hacks joined at the hip to London.
Weather you agree with the SNP or not at least they are a party with Scotland at heart.
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Echoing and paraphrasing other comments, this isn't about The Budget but about the fact that Northern British NuLab still haven't come to terms with the concept that they no longer run the Scottish Government.
Let The Grey Man and his cohorts put their money where their mouths are and resign their seats en bloc. Let's see how much the people of Scotland support their "principled opposition" and their clear and well-articulated alternative policies for trying to keep Scotland from being dragged under by Broon's Depression.
I have not seen anything positive come from Northern British NuLab, or Tavish and his merry crew of federalists.
A ticket for the raffle for the car at the next SNP Conference if anyone can point to a constructive and realistic "budget policy" from either. I think the moths won't be needing their sunglasses.
I'm rapidly losing what faith and respect I had in the Greens as a "moderating influence". Patrick, throwing the toys oot the pram here isn't doing you personally or your party any favours.
Aunty Bella and the Tories may actually have come up with some reasonable proposals, were it not for the fact that because they have come from the party of Call Me Dave immediately marks them as far-flung and lunatical to the vast majority of us who remember Maggie's Recession (funded, did we mention, by erm, oil wasn't it ?)
Its time for a Government of National Unity under Margo.
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Brian
At 5 o'clock the result should be know yet the posts from #14 on are still unmoderated. Pity the poster whose comment was made in perfect ignorance and whose reader thinks him stupid with the benefit of hindsight. It makes a mockery of the concept of "blether".
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Well, I was entirely wrong, Labour and the Liberals have indeed voted the budget down.
Iain Gray has followed it up by asking a question regarding a vote of no confidence in a cabinet minister.
Labour are hell bent on sabotaging Scottish governance and indeed, with the help of the Liberals, they appear to have succeeded.
I honestly believe that they hoped that the Greens would lack nerve and support the budget, however it wasn't to be.
We now have the worst economic recession, probably on record, a labour Prime Minister who has been culpable in leaving the UK defenceless against the coming economic storm.
In a way I am happy that Labour in Scotland have shown their hand. There can be no doubt about their agenda, it is to bring down the Scottish government, the scottish people are to be acceptable collateral damage.
Neither they, nor the appallingly misnamed Liberal Democrats, should receive one more vote from a Scottish individual.
Lets see Iain Gray explain his opposition to the budget, the guy deserves to be taken to task publicly - he will fold - publicly !!
This post should have contained expletives, however it would have been moderated. No words can express the shear fury I feel towards these people.
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It's a sad day when a bunch of petty, vindictive Labour MSPs choose to put their political hatred of the SNP before the financial welfare of the entire Scottish people...but that is exactly what they have done.
The electorate will show this irresponsible bunch of Labour louts exactly what they think of their anti-Scottish behaviour at the next Scottish government election.
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Did Salmond not threaten to resign if the budget was voted down? Does anyone think he'll keep his word?
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...aaaand here you go!
Labour MSP shot themselves in their collective foot.
A soup of petty local politics and strategies dictated from Westminster poisoned their souls.
Sorry Labs, end of track, please alight the train.
Future? SNP government resigning, new elections in a few months (in lieu of an Independence referendum) with an absolute majority to the SNP.
End of story.
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I have no doubt that the Green proposal was an honest attempt to push an agenda that they (and I, to a large degree) share.
Also, the money will be found, and the Budget will probably go through next week.
However, it's worth keeping the polling data in mind. In 2007, the Greens got 4% of the Regional vote. In the Oct 08 YouGov Scottish poll, they were polling 6% - the majority of them coming from voters intending to vote LD for Westminster.
The LDs have been haemorrhaging at both the UK and Scottish levels, so it makes sense for the Greens to lift their profile as being an effective force, and to take even more LD votes.
The SNP may not like it, but for the National Movement an increase in Green MSPs at the expense of the LDs would be good news.
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#19 handclapping
"Pity the poster whose comment was made in perfect ignorance"
Hence the highly unusual situation of my keeping my electronic mouth shut until 6:03 :-)
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So the Greens withdraw support at the last minute...
Just as well there's no environmental cost attached to pathological stupidity.
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/7854417.stm
So the Fib Dems and Liebour think the best thing for the Scottish economy is to lose the budgetary increase allocated?!
1.8 billion (or 1800 million) divided by 356 days and you get a ballpark figure of 5 to 5.1 million being lost per day, due to their playground antics.
Liebour need to accept they lost the election! They must be praying they aren't 'waited out' and another pasting at the polls is scheduled for them!
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question
does the scottish labour party not have the right to vote against the snp budget, can anyone tell me how many times the snp voted against the labour party both at holyrood and in local government,prior to the 2007 election.
why is it so different to what the snp did,and can anyone explain to me what thier budget is, the problem that this current administration have is a lack of proper policies that will actually resolve the issues facing scotland today
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
I am very disappointed to see the budget bill voted down, both for myself and for all Scotish residents (the limbo in whch we are now placed cannot be a good thing for the economy).
However, whilst I condemn some of the individuals concerned, I acknowlege that it is a legitimate ploy to vote down the budget.
After all, what is the point of having a vote if there is no real choice?
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Sad day for Scotland!
This stinks of Brown.
Everything he touches turns to dust, why should Scotland be any different?
TDBs
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I hope tomorrow, with Question Time being televised from Scotland, that the BBC doesn't exercise its usual mindset that something not important to England is of no importance at all and allow the audience to question whomever might be representing Labour to answer for their 'No' vote today.
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em no the Scottish electorate will not show distaste for the Labour Party in Scotland, it will vote them in again.
Reason being still too many people of a certain age who would vite for a roll of loft insulation if it wore a labour rosette.
I heard one just today remark that after getting 200 quid for winter fuel payment they had just got another 60 quid this month for winter fuel payment. Labour knows how to keep hold of its own you know!
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GlasgowGooner:
#22.
"Did Salmond not threaten to resign if the budget was voted down?"
Before the last budget, yes, Salmond threatened to resign.
"Does anyone think he'll keep his word?"
I would suspect so, but I have not heard Alex issue the same threat for this budget.
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Well done to the Greens! If we are going to address climate change, we need to be serious. Not, as both the SNP, Labour and the other parties do, cliam to address it by setting commendable targets while ensuring they will never be met by building ever more roads, road bridges and airports!
The Government could have "bought" two votes by with a serious energy savings scheme but they clearly sought to get away with a miserly scheme to try and 'save' climate-busting projects.
Let's hope the Government lives up to its climate rhetoric when it reconsiders and re-presents the budget.
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No 22 GlasgowGooner asks:
"Did Salmond not threaten to resign if the budget was voted down?
Does anyone think he'll keep his word?"
Yes he will keep his word, this budget is now going through committee (I believe that is the phrase) which will take a month.
If it does not get passed then the SNP Government will resign, a nightmare scenario for Labour who have no budget to offer and who are plummeting in the polls down South and almost certainly in Scotland as well.
Labour and the Liberal have behaved like a third rate social club committee. Their behaviour has been totally irresponsible.
It is clear that neither had any intention to reach a consensus with the SNP, the Liberals tax reduction was incoherent whilst Labour didn't actually put forward anything, simply stating that the budget was 'insufficient', 'inappropriate', 'not enough' etc, etc.
One of the difficulties of having lost an election is that you must eat humble pie regularly. Labour have shown that they still haven't adjusted to opposiiton in Scotland and continue to behave as though they are the largest party.
The Liberals simply beggar belief, what their strategy was is anyones guess. They will be obliterated in the next Holyrood election, perhaps even the Westminster election as well.
A disservice was done to Scotland today, my initial fury has turned to pragmatism. Labour and their lapdog friends have handed the SNP a huge beating stick .... Gray and Scott are about to suffer some metaphorical and well deserved beatings.
Oh, one would have thought that tonight, of all nights, the BBC would have sought to speed up moderation of comments.
Were they relying on funding from Holyrood to pay the overtime?
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Think you should give up the predictions Brian--you were wrong again(about the result).
I'm absolutely disgusted at the antics of Labour, Fibs and Greens,
Labour was summed up by Whitton's response to an interviewer's question about which part of the budget would he cut to pay for additional apprenticeships.
"That's not for me to say ,it's for the SNP to decide" !!!!!! (My exclamations) What a cop-out.
So the above-mentioned parties have voted AGAINST:-
A freeze in Council Tax,
Bringing forward millions of pounds to build affordable housing and other capital projects,
Bringing down Business Rates,
A £33 million insulation scheme,
A £60 million town regeneration scheme'
I could go on.
Salmond is far more diplomatic than me and will make an effort to get his Budget through next time with the minimum of amendments.
I would tell them where to go and challenge them to vote it down again, with the prospect of an Election facing them and the hiding they would get from the populace.
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How the mighty have fallen from the Arc of Prosperity to grovelling around for a few rolls of loft insulation to try and keep the Greens happy.
That of course is the hazard of deep minority government. Mr Salmond emulates Mr Blair at FMQs - pity Mr Salmond forgets that he is in a minority of 20 or so.
It's all very well using the last word at FMQs to smack the opposition bowling around but it does make folk less inclined to help or even abstain.
The SNP only talk to themselves in the National Conversation. They need to learn to talk to others. Scurrying around at the last minute trying to get some cheapo loft insulation - oh dear.
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Forcing another election now is certainly not in the country's best interest. I'm curious as to where Labour and the Liberals think thier tactics will land them. The last time I checked - the popularity of the SNP was high and support for both labour and liberals were waning. This is a tactic I feel that has backfired on the former government. My guess is that they expected the greens to vote for the budget while they voted against it to maintain thier stubborn opposition to the Nationalists. As luck would have it, the Greens were not in the mood for deals and as a result, we have a stalemate which might just snowball into a snap election.
My moneys on the SNP pulling more Labour and Liberal seats as a result.
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It's not just the Greens. Don't forget the Nulab quislings doing their thing as per usual.
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secretbelter:
#28.
Hello newbie,
"does the scottish labour party not have the right to vote against the snp budget..."
Yes they do. However by doing so Scotland has lost money, are Labour not suppose to helping Scotland? How does this help Scotland...? They are chasing their political objectives at our own expence.
"can anyone tell me how many times the snp voted against the labour party both at holyrood and in local government,prior to the 2007 election."
The SNP have never voted 'No' when it comes to the budget. Apart from 1999 I believe, but that's due to the budget only being part done, or something.
"why is it so different to what the snp did?"
What did the SNP do exactly?
"and can anyone explain to me what thier budget is?"
The budget is for their spending for the year. You know, everything that Holyrood controls which are not free.
"the problem that this current administration have is a lack of proper policies that will actually resolve the issues facing scotland today"
It's all depends on your opinion. Perhaps you can explain why the budget is unsuitable to you? It would be interesting to know and maybe a reasonable discussion can be had.
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#28 secretbelter
Welcome to the blog. I do hope you're going to stay longer than most NuLab supporters.
Of course Labour, Lib-Dem and other MSPs are entitled to vote as they wish.
They then have to accept the electoral consequences.
If you are an activist, have a look at your internal polling (if your bosses will let you), otherwise have a look at the polls. (I'll give you a clue. Scots vote differently for westminster and for Holyrood).
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I am a little confused here, it appears the liberals, greens and labour voted (who on a quick calculation represent the majority in Scotland) did not agree with the budget and voted against it. Surely that is what democracy is all about?
Alex is still in the driving seat. he can go back and put forward a revised budget within a few days. Alternatively he could desolve the Government, with the almost inevitable result of the election. The majority here seem to think he would win it with a much increased majority, so why does he not do it.
Either way he jumps do not think it is the disaster some are painting.
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#32, TimothyFClarke wrote:
"... tomorrow, with Question Time being televised from Scotland ..."
I probably won't watch it until the weekend - I will be tuning in to BBC Northern Ireland's truly devolved panel programme Let's Talk instead - but I've now started keeping count [particularly when the show is hosted in Scotland] of how many QT questions are 'local' and how many are purely English matters whose only impact upon Scotland is that we are forced to sit through endless reports on them on BBC News before getting the snippet or two applicable to us.
(And the BBC is the best of the bunch; other UK broadcasters show even less sensitivity to non-English matters.)
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Well I've kept my mouth shut even longer - but then I was dealing with one or two issues at work.
Well, I agree that the Lib Dems need removing asap. The Greens are not much better but I agree with insulation. But why not all premises? Reduces costs, lower bills, more free cash to spend, revive the economy.
A bit dismal on both sides I think.
What we need to know is if Labour were prepared to negotiate - in which case Swinney is playing hard line. Obviously if not then rather sad and annoying.
Is it a specific part of the budget? Or is GB calling the shots here?
Methinks a rapid rethinking by both sides behind closed doors since no one comes out of this smelling roses.
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33. At 7:04pm on 28 Jan 2009, rickyross3359 wrote:
em no the Scottish electorate will not show distaste for the Labour Party in Scotland, it will vote them in again.
Reason being still too many people of a certain age who would vite for a roll of loft insulation if it wore a labour rosette.
I heard one just today remark that after getting 200 quid for winter fuel payment they had just got another 60 quid this month for winter fuel payment. Labour knows how to keep hold of its own you know!
So, are you suggesting that the winter fuel payment be removed? Perhaps to pay for that blooming bridge?
The winter fuel payment - for this who really need it - probably saves money in the long term since being able to heat their home stops them ending up in hospital etc etc. (Unless they are of stronger stuff like oldnat and sleep with the heating off and windows open!! - sorry couldnt resist it!)
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And I cannot see Alex resigning. That would be very damaging to his party. The SNP do not want to follow Labour is playing musical chairs with the leadership.
Oh and I see the moderation is working well again.......might get posted before midnight.
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#34, Thomas_Porter
This'll be the same Alex Salmond who was unequivocal in saying that he wouldn't stand (for the party leadership), and that he would refuse to serve if elected....
I think he's got more integrity than many of the current shower of MSPs, but being the most trustworthy of a thoroughly untrustworthy bunch is no great merit.
---
If Alex Salmond thought Scotland (or even the SNP) would be better served by another leader, I would like to think that his vanity and personal ambition would not stop him from stepping aside.
(Just as well there is no one to test his mettle at the moment.)
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A propos of nothing at all, I recently showed a colleague pictures of a dozen leading MSPs (including the four leaders).
Most drew a blank stare.
The only exceptions - "Salmond" and "the Tory woman" (Annabel Goldie).
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The conspiracy theories will start flying once again about the "impartial" BBC.
A massive night for scottish politics, a massive blow for the scottish people once again dealt by the overbearing hand of the labour and liberal true power centres down south and just as so many people are venting their fury and dismay at the spineless pointless directionless pathetic and in the greens case dillusional politicians the bbc cant get moderators on the case to get these posts through.
We have a right to vent our annoyance at this. We pay for this service. We should be able to read each and every one of our comments in a timely fashion.
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Aye-Write
Ed has beaten both of us. Post 1066 over on NR's blog! Seems an appropriate number!
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Quite a comment from uk_abz_scot at 38, he appears to believe that the SNP have been brought down.
However, this poster has unintentionally revealed what we all know to be the case, Labour and the Liberals had no intention of seeking consensus.
The poster ends his comment with:
"Scurrying around at the last minute trying to get some cheapo loft insulation - oh dear."
This poster should be asking himself why Labour and the Liberals had deliberately removed themselves from the budgetary process.
The SNP won't have been harmed by this, the Scottish electorate most certainly have, as I suspect have the LibLabs.
Someone will indeed be scurrying around now, Iain and Tavish have just kicked a hornets nest.
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#41, Thomas_Porter:
"The budget is for their spending for the year. You know, everything that Holyrood controls which are not free."
More to the point is that it controls precisely what will be free (to we the people) at the point of delivery.
NOTHING is free, even the air that we breathe (if you consider the costs involved in ensuring that it is 'clean').
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#28, might be an idea to read Brian's blog above,
"Surely it is also true that - if Labour and the Liberal Democrats persist in blocking the new budget - then Scotland would eventually lose out in that the sums to be spent would be lower then envisaged for the new year.
In response, the SNP argue that they never voted against the Labour/LibDem budget bills. They say they abstained twice and voted for the rest."
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#45 Neil_Small147
What's this thing called "sleep" that you talk about?
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Anyone who has studied budgeting at ever a cursory level knows that it should be an iterative process, adapted in the light of changed circumstances.
Alex 'Not That One' Fergusson's action in voting against can be argued as preserving the status quo - after all, there was not majorty support in the chamber for the Bill - but for ANY MSP bloc to oppose on dogmatic grounds is effectively to argue that what held true when the budget was set is still true.
Really???
Our banking institutions in tatters - I suspect that Tory tax-cuts planned for after the General Election will be funded by selling the public the shares that we taxpayers have acquired - and a Brown gvernment deep in the brown stuff.
(The IMF says the UK is going to suffer to the greatest extent among leading nations as a result of the current financial disarray.)
---
Is there any limit to the number of times the Budget Bill can be re-presented?
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Brian,
Just watched your report on the Labour/Libdem budget fiasco.
You're a ham actor!
We all know that Westminster Labour fobbed Scotland off with a greatly restricted budget, while skimming off record taxes from Scotlands natural resources.
We all know that Labour in Scotland are complaining about spending in certain areas, but they also know that it is there buddies in Westminster who are helping create this situation.
It is apparent that political interference from south of the border will not be tolerated by Scotland for much longer. It's been over 300 years - too long now don't you think.
They've had their chance, and have blown it, but Labour are currently doing a brilliant job of creating an economic disaster that many future generations will be paying for.
And now Labour in Scotland are trying to compound that economic disaster to make Scotland suffer even more.
The Libdems are on a different planet, but by voting against the budget, they will get their wish of reducing the Scottish budget by a massive amount.
What about the latest news that PFI/PPP in England will no longer be able to fund hospital projects. That is BIG news, considering the bunglers at Westminster have just suggested that Scotland should use PFI/PPP to fund our new bridge.
Let's have an election in Scotland and watch Labour and the Libdems squirm. It will just be a snapshot of what will happen at the Westminster elections.
Remember, Brian, your Labour cronies are there to serve Scotland, and not themselves. There has been too much of them serving Westminster first, and serving Scotland last over the years.
You also have to get used to being in minority opposition, Brian. It's one thing being a minority government, but at least they are a government, while Labours lost souls are all at sea trying to be some form of opposition.
It's no surprise that a minority government gets defeated now and again, but let's remember that it was only defeated by the default vote of the PO.
Can't wait to see what margin of victory Gordon and co get at the next UK general election.
Fun, fun, fun.
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Of course I hope John Swinney won't just fold to the Greens demands. I do not think 100million can afford to be paid out just at the moment and 33million still goes a long way. Is taking a few off the dole to do a course in loft insulation gonna help best leave them in bed with enough money for a carry oot.
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Oh and Brian, you were talking about the SNP giving concessions so as to get their budget through.
Of course, those who voted against the budget will also have to give concessions if they wish to retain what little credibility they have.
Indeed, you could see the fear on Tavish Scotts face after it all.
Labour will be held responsible both for the economic disaster in Britain overall, as well as trying to turn a drama into a crisis in Scotland.
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Brian I saw yourself and Jackie Bird on Reporting Scotland. I was very worried that Jackie was morphing into Kirsty Wark at one point when interviewing Eck and that you'd be forced to rugby tackle her to the ground to save the BBC switchboard from meltdown!
Glenn Campbell on Newsdrive described the greens no vote as having "swung it" a term I thought more redolent of a victory. Maybe he felt it was.
My view is that Labour are terrified by their victory here. They looked pretty satisfied for a nanosecond then very serious and finally stunned as the potential consequences sank in.
Iain MacWhirter has a blog on the Guardian and my quote of the day must go to DougtheDug who said of Labour's fellow travellers in "no" land
"The Lib-Dem MSP's appear to have the collective politcal awareness of a slug and fail to appreciate that Tavish is in political terms now wearing a white headband adorned with a rising sun and japanese calligraphy."
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#44 The_Forfarian
You might also be interested to know that the BBC are giving Kelvin MacKenzie airtime again on The Politics Show tomorrow (not aired in Scotland). I can only assume that the BBC agree with the points of view he puts across, and that at some point they'll be giving airtime to someone with bigoted views towards the English.
I don't agree the BBC are the best of the bunch, I really do think they're the worst. What other channel would pre-moderate and publish comments such as "the ignorant Scotch are no better than pigs"?
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As far as the Greens go, how green is the material they are planning to use to insulate homes?
How much energy does it take to produce it?
How much energy does is required to install it?
How many years will it take before it has paid for itself, both in financial and environmental terms?
Will it be biodegradable, or will it remain in the environment after thousands of years?
It's all very well coming up with these plans, but let's look at the practicalities, and see how green the plan really is.
It's easy to come up with a plan that people like, but £100 million a year is a lot of money.
I'm sure that there are better ways to save the environment, like introducing much stricter planning laws on how energy efficient new houses have to be.
Let's look at the real culprits - in Edinburgh, for example, all the listed buildings have the old style windows, single glazed of course, just pouring energy out into the atmosphere.
But we can't change that, can we. No, the wealthy people who own these big houses with high ceilings and big windows won't be forced to change anything.
You really have to laugh - I bet most of them have installed energy saving lighbulbs, despite that a bulbs entire lifetimes energy saving pours out of their windows every hour.
And the scale of it - most historic city centres are full of houses like that - they were OK when the world was a less crowded place, but not now when energy has now become a precious resource, but also when all this wasted energy if having an impact on the world.
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I cannot believe that John Swinney in his current position within a Minority Administration did not go into the debate today with the outcome not already agreed and known to him. This has to be a strategic blunder on his part. If he really was worth his stock he would have at least met the Greens in the middle to ensure that his budget, often coined by him as being so vital to the Scottish people and economy, was passed.
In the end it resulted in notes being passed to the Green party throughout the debate trying to give some last minute assurances while still not really engaging in effective discussion.
He should have known that Labour would say no, he should have known that the LD's would say no, he had the support of the conservatives so why risk all on a green proposal only costing a maximum of £100m, nothing in his overall budget.
Not that all of the blame lies at the door of the SNP, the Liberals never attempted to even participate in the budget process, a party whose numbers equal that of the conservatives. Labour as well seem to be interested in partisan politics and no-one will ever know the true extent of there apparent negotiations with the SNP.
The Scottish Parliament is one of proportional representation therefore where there is no majority in the parliament all must listen to each other in deciding how to take matters forward. I would like my politicians to actually affect change based on the manifesto that I elect them on. I am not interested in childish party political positioning, the like of which we saw in the chamber today from all parties. We elect politicians to represent our views in a parliament where its objective should be the betterment of our society as a whole. With the current economic concerns at the forefront of all of our minds one would have hoped that our politicians could have put aside there differences and brought forward a united budget to attempt to meet the challenges that we face.
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Brian, please be truthfull about this.
The BBC in general should also try to be truthfull, and impartial, as it keeps insisting.
It was in fact a draw, and the budget was not defeated by MSPs.
It was in fact voted down by the default vote of the presiding officer, so not exactly a victory for the opposition, is it.
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"Scottish First Minister Alex Salmond has placed his party on an election footing"
GlasgowGooner -
Salmond is going one better than keep his word about resigning if the budget failed - he's going to call your bluff and let the Scottish people decide what should happen next.
It was a grim scene when they heard Salmond's words over at Anti-Scottish Labour Party HQ. As the brown corduroys were issued, Gray & Co. sat with their heads in their hands wailing: "What were we thinking?!!"
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We should grill the Greens first. Perhaps we can hear their views on reviving the economy?
In my opinion two things have happened here:
1. Labour are following the party line at Westminster. Why? If I was Gordon Brown I would be telling them to try acting like Scottish MPs and not a bunch of schoolchildren scared to speak in case teacher hears. If they would negotiate a little, then they can say "look, we are helping Scotland etc etc". Keeps a few voters in line and less ammunition for the SNP.
2. Swinney refused to negotiate enough. But to be fair without knowing the full details it is difficult to comment. But I wonder if Alex has ordered him to play hardball, something Alex likes. And after the bridge issue, perhaps Alex has decided to play hard knowing Labour would not accept the budget, therefore making them look bad.
Both sides are playing serious politics here. How the papers publish this tomorrow will be interesting. Bear in mind my previous comments that most voters read the headlines.
The Lib Dems really are a waste of space. They have Angry Man leading them at Westminster and Coco the Clown leading them up here.
We are in the worst economic crisis for decades. Can our parties not show some wartime spirit (as mentioned by Mr Brown earlier) and work together? Erm, nope. Too much bitterness about on both sides.
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#49. oldnat
"Ed has beaten both of us. Post 1066 over on NR's blog! Seems an appropriate number!"
Very good oldnat. I had passed that by :-)
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I'm just wondering how the Scottish press will present this tomorrow.
'Budget voted down by Greens'?
'SNP Lose Budget Vote'?
'Budget Crisis for SNP'?
The three above are the most likely in my opinion.
The one below is the one that I don't expect to see.
'Labour vote down budget'
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#59 TimothyFClarke
I'd be interested to get a link to that racist comment.
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#59.TimothyFClarke
This one?
Outrage over Kelvin MacKenzie's Scottish slurs
Even the Beeb must be getting feart as Westminster already is.
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If the bbc were engaged in some kind of ridiculous, pravda style media conspiracy to tarnish the good name of the snp, do you not think it might be easier for them not to have these blogs in the first place, rather than go to the bother of emplying Stasi like moderators, ready to stamp out pro snp posts at a moments notice?
Also, given that all too often these discussions descend into self congratulatory forums for snp researchers, staffers and activists to talk about how wonderful they all are, and how rubbish everybody else is, it's no wonder that those who express any kind of anti snp views, however justified they may be, feel intimidated and stop posting.
In addition, the ad hominem attacks ('grey man' etc) do nothing to bolster an argument, and simply make you look childish, petty and slightly ridiculous, truth be told.
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63. At 10:17pm on 28 Jan 2009, bighullabaloo wrote:
"Scottish First Minister Alex Salmond has placed his party on an election footing"
O' that'll be the day!
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Newsnight present it as:
'SNP failure to pass budget'
BBC Scotland news:
'Scottish budget rejected by MSPs'
The Herald:
'Scottish budget rejected by MSPs at Holyrood'
The Scotsman:
'Budget analysis: From hero to zero in high-risk strategy'
There you have it, SNP failure, cryptic reference to Greens from The Scotsman and MSP's as a whole blamed by the rest.
Can anyone suggest what two parties (providing 62 of the 64 'No' votes) have been omitted from these headlines?
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66. Greenockboy
Without a shadow of a doubt this is exactly what we'll see. It's a sorry state of affairs but thank goodness for the invention of the internet so that people can voice their views and hear the voice of others.
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Sad to say that Brewer was disappointing on newsnight.
He gave Swinney a tough time, hard questions well fielded by Swinney.
Harvie's interview was OK, however the interview with Andy Kerr showed a reluctance to hold Labour to account.
Kerr was asked what it would have took for them to support the budget, he basically refused to say. However under pressure he listed three proposals 'Apprentices' (no detail), Town centre regeneration (honest) and protecting the health service (honest again).
Had Swinney been this inept with an answer then Brewer would have mauled him, however I suspect that Brewer knows only too well that Kerr had no answers and would have crumbled.
The Scotsman front page apparently headlines poor Patrick Harvie as the budget buster.
Labour and the Liberals must have supported it after all - didn't they?
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I am pleased that John Swinney did not succumb to blackmail by the tiddly Greens and this will play strongly in the longer term.
The Greens will be the ones to regret this silliness.
Today was playing silly games and the public will soon get fed up with those playing them.
The LibDems are sinking and I'll eat my left foot (and the shoe and sock on it) if Labour forces an election on this issue.
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Patrick Harvie is furious apparently at the budget talks???
Shouldnt it be the people of Scotland that are furious that this insignificant party that nobody voted for gets such a big say in whether Scotland's budget gets passed or not?
Who on earth are the Greens I ask you??
Its a complete joke. Scotland will suffer as a result of an incompetent administration and a combined opposition that has no interest whatsoever in helping Scotland during the global economic downturn but instead for advancing their own political gain.
Its enough to make you think Devolution was a very bad idea. I'm all for independence but these days the prospect of these people being the sole people running the country really, really scares me.
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#67 oldnat
It doesn't exist anymore. I was so outraged at it that I sent a complaint to the BBC and, although it took more than twelve hours, it was finally removed. And although I requested a response to my complaint and to my point that there is clear bigotry employed within the BBC I didn't get a response.
They do, however, see fit to come to Scotland to dedicate their Sunday morning Christian program "The Big Question" to tell Scots that we're bigoted. Oh the irony.
In future I'll not complain as you're not the first to ask for a link, and I don't think people realise how complacent, how partisan, and how bigoted the BBC is (who still seem to believe that people simply like to complain about Aunty Beeb, but not look forward to her funeral).
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#66 greenockboy
How about:
"The Green Lib/Lab Pact crush SNP,s Budget"
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Judging by what was shown on Newsnicht, it seems that the Green leader decided to vote against because he felt slighted that he was inadequately feted by John Swinney, and thought that his vote deserved great plaudits.
Finance Bills represent the sole occasion in the calendar when the Greens have any sort of public profile; their (or rather Patrick Harvie's) behaviour this year makes certain that I will not even consider that Party on the Regional List come 2011 (or sooner) or in this year's European Parliamentary election.
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#68 oldnat
No, that's just one of many times the BBC have invited him on air. The last time I saw him was on The Politics Show were, for at least the third time, he made bigoted remarks about the Scots again. That time Jenny (who was still presenting the show then) laughed along to his bigoted comments as if they're acceptable in the BBC -- which of course they are.
Another complaint was sent to the BBC. The response: Kelvin is a controversial figure who often has original remarks to make. I offered to allow them to interview my now nine year old niece who (as I told them) also thinks she is always right, often makes unsuitable comments, is almost always wrong and is generally ignored by sensible people over matters of importance. Once more (but less surprisingly) the BBC again failed to respond.
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#69 linds556
Another newbie - welcome.
"those who express any kind of anti snp views, however justified they may be, feel intimidated and stop posting."
I've expressed opinions criticising the SNP, and been contradicted by their supporters.
Intimidation? Garbage!
If people want to post political views, then others will disagree with them (often forcibly).
Do derkbarker (incomprehensibly), Anaxim (without identity), handclapping (straightforward Labour), Anglophone (wittily) no longer post, because they're intimidated. No. They carry on expressing their views as do Nationalists - and quite right too.
Of course. less robust Unionists who haven't thought out their arguments may find themselves savaged by those who are better informed.
Welcome to politics!
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So Labour and or the Lib Dems voted against Fire Service and Police pensions rises already agreed? Will my Council Tax increase by 30% Will this recession last years longer in Scotland ....ah weel the lower production will cheer the Greens...Do not blame me..I might just have voted for the most sensible party in Scotland....THE SNP!
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#69 linds556
Oh, and "salmondella". Do you find that a witty pun (actually I do) or make him/her "look childish, petty and slightly ridiculous, truth be told."
Consistency would be a useful attribute.
Now if you feel "intimidated" by my responses, you need to consider whether your original post was reasoned and balanced, or simply partisan crap - which should be ridiculed.
Diddums.
(Aye-write would have been much gentler than me, but would have quietly stilletoed the weakness of your argument)
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Did I read a headline saying Labour and Lib/Dems unite once again in a nostalgic act of self destruction by voting down the Scottish budget? No? Thought not!
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Forfarian (47),
A very meaningful observation.Slainte!
ed
Roll on the process!
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#74 sneckedagain et al
Guys! Wise up to politics.
Let me repeat a section of my #24 -
"However, it's worth keeping the polling data in mind. In 2007, the Greens got 4% of the Regional vote. In the Oct 08 YouGov Scottish poll, they were polling 6% - the majority of them coming from voters intending to vote LD for Westminster.
The LDs have been haemorrhaging at both the UK and Scottish levels, so it makes sense for the Greens to lift their profile as being an effective force, and to take even more LD votes.
The SNP may not like it, but for the National Movement an increase in Green MSPs at the expense of the LDs would be good news."
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No wonder people get peed off with politics ,labour and the lib-dems jump in bed together again to try and get one over the goverment and me thinks they want Salmond to quit cause not one of them can tie his shoe laces and with him gone they might think they`ve a better chance of getting power so lets hope the scottish people make sure it backfires on them big style but knowing some of the scots people they will never learn and vote labour
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#80 oldnat
Don't try and tar me with that Labour brush, son. I want nothing to do with a toom box "New with added spin and lordships too". Socialist maybe but not power before principles. What the unions are doing bankrolling them defeats me but now I'm retired I've no vote, no influence. If the SNP do something for apprentices in their next budget, I'll have to think. There should be more anyway; not everyone is an academic and you can't outsource your teeth, a blocked drain or someone to wait on your table. Look at who's promising new jobs now, Tesco, Asda, Morrisons and a grand level of skill and training involved. It's a sad day when it's come to this.
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#82 oldnat
"(Aye-write would have been much gentler than me, but would have quietly stilletoed the weakness of your argument)"
Aye-write hasn't slept much for three days! I have just thoroughly stilletoed scot-free (overleaf).
:-\
I think your moccasins are quite on form too tonight are they not!
;-) ;-)
(I'm sorry, that was an uncalled for retired teacher joke - I meant it in a nice way :-P :-P :-P
Sorry!!)
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# 87 handclapping
My sincere apologies.
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I suspect the real reason why Labour never had any intentions of voting for the Scottish budget. Have they been told to do so by their masters in Westminster? Have they been told to bring down the SNP government no matter what; Even to the detriment of the Scottish people? If that be the case then Labour is not only playing a dangerous game but it is a morally corrupt game, in that it would put party politics above the needs of the Scottish nation.
I also suspect that Brian is not too enamoured with this type of approach to the budget vote, else, I suspect, that he would have witten more to back the way in which labour have voted. Is Brian becoming disillusioned too?
On another note, Celtic were lucky!
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I think Alex Fergusson, the Presiding Officer, is not getting his fair share of the credit for yesterday's fiasco.
He is no longer a party member and therefore should not vote on party lines. But that doesn't mean he has no responsibilities to live up to. He is now a servant of the parliament and should be voting in whichever way is in the interests of the Parliament.
He claims that it is convention to vote in line with the stautus quo.
What is status quo? Margo McDonald was onto this yesterday, but too late.
Is the status quo non-commitment? The simplest of possible interpretations.
Or is the status quo the smooth running of the parliament, and the avoidance of crisis?
And how many of the budgetted items in John Swinney's bill have already been voted on.
Is the status quo not the direction in which we are already going, by these decisions that have already been made?
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Alex Salmond says that if there is no acceptance of the budget, there will be an election.
David Whitton say that Salmond cannot know the rules of parliament because it is parliament that decides on an election not the First Minister or Government.
However, it may be that Salmond is just better at reading the signs that the bewildered Whitton.
Can Labour get a majority of parliament to vote for them to form an administration to avoid an election? Is this Gray's big plan?
The SNP will block them, obviously.
From Annabel Golgie's comments yesterday, they have no chance with them either.
I don't think Margo McDonald wouldgive them any time either.
Which means that Gray would need the Greens and Alex Fergusson's casting vote.
Even if the Greens can be bought by the party of Trident and nuclear energy, Alex Fergusson's interpretation of his vote is now clear.
He will always vote for the status quo, regardless of the importance of the bill. In any vote to form a new administration, the status quo is no administration and no leader.
If there is no accepted budget, there will be an election.
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#89 oldnat
re my #88
(just in case) my sincere apologies.
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I don't think the SNP can afford an election. But then, neither can any of the other parties.
And if an election results in a similar result to what we have now - and even the most diehard supporters have to accept that this is a possibility - we are back at square one.
Better that the MSPs of all parties work together here. At least Tavish has seen the light and is "thnking" about supoprting the budget. ie He will support the budget since the Lib Dems have probably the most to ose in an election.
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I heard Auntie Annabel take Iain Gray out for a good kicking this morning on GMS ...... laugh, I almost drove into a ditch.
Here's some questions I genuinely am looking for answers so that I can understand whether the budget process was fair:
For a LibDems - how was the 2p cut in income tax to be funded? and no BS about efficiencies in government, everyone knows that's code for 'we have no idea'
And now for NuLab - what is the cost of the apprenticeship scheme that was so pivotal to your objection to the budget ?
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The Government should tell the Opposition where to put itself, stop playing games with Scotland's future, and call an Election. With a big majority, a new SNP Government would be able to carry on helping the people of Scotland without the pathetic bleating by Lib Dems, Greens, Labour and the dreaded Conservatives.
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#89 oldnat
re my #93
You may well have steel capped big leather bad boys of slippers anyway, and all power to you!
:-)
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#80
oldnat,
It would seem that you are a bit delusional
and not quite up to the mark with your memory?
You see, the big problem with the snp and their supporters, is the notion that they are
the 21st century crusaders and have the ability to defeat all that come's before them.
That arrogant way, was shot down at the last by-election in Glenrothes.
Hey! oldnat it is pretty grim' when your political party cant even get their budget through parliament but I guess you will just put that down to the ignorant notion of the nats no better.
Jeez! why didn't the FM make a television appearance after the budget defeat, christ, the whole of Scotland depends on the budget. The FM should have came forward and accepted that the snp are a minority government and depend on consensus to govern or do the snp not get the idea of their minority position within Scotland and the Scottish parliament.
Well Oldnat you can snipe and cut and run all you like. You may even continue to think that you are superior but what counts in politic's is what the people want and by all accounts the people rejected the snp and it's arrogance at the last by-elections.
The idea that you can carry a 300 year old historic policy as the leading mantra and think you can bully people who dont commit to the ideals of nationalism, is in my view a very feeble way to lay the foundation for what people need in todays society.
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Once again the Scottish Parliament shows their is no accounting for stupidity of MSPs.
What was Patrick Harvie and Ross Harper thinking?
The Greens look completely stupid after this vote. They got their concession, took a 'hissy fit' and then voted the budget down.
The Greens voted against their own plan to insulate 100,000 homes. It simply beggars belief. That's stupidity on a scale with Wendy Alexander budgetary machinations last year.
The Greens should be renamed the Numptie Party - they deserve it.
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#90 gedguy2
"Have they been told to bring down the SNP government no matter what"
My opinion, of course they have that aim. Would you not in their shoes, as brutal minded, ruthless politicians? - the higher the stakes, the harder the tactics, in my opinion.
Just remember Brown's comments in October 2008, that Iceland and the Scottish banks bail out was definitive proof of the folly of independence.
He pushed that line hard, so hard though it was obvious he WANTED the situation re those two failures to be so.
My opinion: He had influence and a degree of power of instruction to do with those situations. He meddled in the Icelandic banking affair. His government took the decisions over the HBOS-Lloyds takeover.
When you look back over things, like in a documentary, the obvious becomes clear. Gordon will do "whatever it takes to preserve the Union".
Alas, the full scandal of it will not be felt until some time in the future. Passive observers most of us remain.
I for one wish the man a speedy and painful comeuppance.
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I too feel Alex Fergusson has to take some of the blame for bringing embarrasment on the Scottish Parliament.
Is he correct in his assertation that he votes for the status quo.
I thought the convention was
1)vote in favour of the government
2)vote in such a way that the parliament doesn't become the laughing stock of world politics.
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#91, #92 talorthane
Perceptive analysis and largely spot on, I think, but it is also possible that Gray thought that Swinney had done enough to to calm the Greens' hissy fit and that it was "safe" to vote against the budget without adverse consequences on them.
From the little shown on last night's Newsnight, none of Gray, Scott and Harvie seemed to have any idea what they would do next.
As you point out, the Greens are unlikely bedfellows for a pro-Trident, pro-nuclear power Labour party, by whom they would be seen as the modern "useful idiots" in supporting a coalition with Gray as FM.
Scott might find a LibDem return to government superficially attractive but would have an immediate spat over taxation in general and LIT in particular, especially as the scenario would involve negotiating with Sooty (played by Gray) and Peter Brough (played by Duff Gordon). The LibDems may be a federalist party, but I would expect some harsh words from their London leadership as the plot unfolded.
All in all, I anticipate the Greens supporting the next budget to the huge relief of Gray and Scott, but if they don't then your logic is absolutely right and new elections will be the result, to the deep regret of all the naysayers.
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#95 googlehoo
"I heard Auntie Annabel take Iain Gray out for a good kicking this morning on GMS ...... laugh, I almost drove into a ditch."
Sounds well worth a listen on the iPlayer - do you recall the rough time it was broadcast?
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whether we like it or not the Tory's are the only ones that have got there head round this minority government situation.
they are working the system as it should be worked.
the labour party- are crap at opposition and indeed a lot of their msp's still think they are in power. for Mr Gray to have the cheek to complain about another party being negative is hilarious.
the lib Dem's- are like the wee guy at school who gets continually bullied and keeps going back for more because he doesn't know what else to do.
the snp - they obviously thought all they had to do was snap there fingers and the greens would fall in to line just like last year.
these problems are caused because our government is not being held to account by anyone. the opposition in the hole are garbage and that leaves the government to think they can do what they like.
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#103 brownedov -GMS was very interesting this morning the bit googlehoo was talking about was before 8 am
there was also a guy from the sun on morning extra who was saying he had heard a wee whisper that if the snp chucked it Mr Gray was planning to follow the lead of his great master and just start running our country without being elected to do so. scary or what. it is time for the silent majority to have their say.
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My colleague and I are the smallest party in this parliament but if you don't give us the world we'll trash the lot
PH
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#92 talorthane
I should have added in my #102 that I agree 100% with your analysis of the nihilist corner which Fergusson has backed himself into.
Given the democratic nature of Holyrood compared to Westmidden, that constitutional issue should be revisited, since coalition or minority government is likely to be necessary for a while to come.
As you say, in any vote to form a new administration, the status quo is no administration and no leader.
Given that the purpose of Holyrood is to provide governance to the Scottish people, a consensus is urgently needed to give Fergusson clearer guidance.
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It has long been convention for Speakers / Presiding Officers to use their casting vote to maintain the status quo even if that means throwing out a Government measure.
The presiding officer made clear what he would do in advance if there was a tie and as there was a tie he did exacactly what he said he would do.
I have no idea of the current presiding officers background or political history but it seams to me that he has acted honourably and should be comemnded.
Imagine the outcry if he had changed his mind from what he saif earlier.
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Salmond must call an election if MSPs do not rethink their attitude to the budget , the power mad Libdems and the 2 man numptie party must not be allowed to dictate terms to the government simply to demonstrate that due to a ridiculous electoral system, they can. Neither of them want or offer anything credible and display no more than petty arrogance in their machinations. Salmond must not negotiate with them, their demands and objections are quite frankly , nonsense.
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#105 sidthesceptic
Many thanks.
For anyone who missed it, the full 3 hours of GMS is now available on the iPlayer. The Goldie/Gray fun starts 1 hour 35 minutes into the stream. Aunty A was certainly in excellent and convincing form while Gray can have made few new friends.
If you're right re Gray, it's him who's having delusions - I'm in accord with talorthane's #92 that Gray could not get a majority of Holyrood to back him and that even if he could get the Greens onside for a tied vote, Fergusson's definition of the status quo has backed himself into a nihilistic corner and that would bind him to make the casting vote in favour of nothingness.
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I've been thinking about Patrick Harvie's behaviour yesterday and what disturbs me ( apart from the greens potentially trading some worthy lagging for son of Trident) was who he reminded me of.
I watched him on Newsnight scurrying about breathlessly with the UKs cameras on him and I thought "it's Jack from Will and Grace".
He was just loving being the centre of attention. Pausing dramatically in doorways to tell the Press he'd been slighted and rushing off importantly. I expected Karen to be waiting around the corner with a large martini saying "you did real good honey, you showed 'em!"
And Jack /Harvie putting one hand up to his cheek leaning to one side and gushing
" Gee you're right, they love me out there!"
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# kaybraes 109- only one problem with your idea. as i understand it the way the parliament is set up calling an election is not in the gift of Mr Salmond. i don't know how it works but I'm sure someone will tell us.
don't blame the electoral system. it works well all over the world the issue is the standard of politician we are lumbered with in Scotland right now.
yes there demands are nonsense but the snp have no option but to negotiate with all of them that's how minority government and the electoral system is supposed to work.
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sidthesceptic
"yes there demands are nonsense but the snp have no option but to negotiate with all of them that's how minority government and the electoral system is supposed to work."
The Government does have an option.
To decide when enough is enough, and refuse to be held to ransom.
Then to remind everyone that these are public funds, of which the Parliament and all of its parties are the custodians.
With this reminder, hopefully others will begin to be more reasonable, as evidenced by the Lib Dems change of position.
However, if the current balance of party power does not allow enough reasonable behaviour to allow agreement then that balance has to change.
Some will fear this possibilty. The SNP appear not to.
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It is a truth universally acknowledged that those who most fervently promote their own vision of liberal values, peace, goodwill and the improvement of the human condition, usually do so by fiercely trampling on the rights and liberties of those who fail to share their particular concept of utopia
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#112 sidthesceptic
#113 talorthane
Well said from both of you, but I still think talorthane's #92 is on the money and the likely scenario. As Aunty A pointed out on GMS, neither the SNP or the Tories fear an early election but Labour, LibDems & Greens must all be staring into the abyss.
In a way, I'm disappointed by Scott's backing off a little as reported on this website's "Lib Dems offer new budget support". Done yesterday, it would have been statesmanlike. Done today, he comes across as frit, at the same time letting the estimable Gray off the hook.
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Which Labour MSP was mandated to vote FOR the Budget to get Labour of last year's hook, but was too stupid to understand his/her instructions?
For all Gray's blusterings this morning Labour made another huge mistake yesterday--that's 2 Budgets in a row.
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Gedgut (90)
Nothing new about that! Standard behaviour for parties, the excuse being that "we can't implement our "principles" unless we're in power, so integrity and principles will have to wait. Meanwhile, just do and say anything in the interest of gaining power"Of course, if the effect of such behaviour is mis-calculated, .....
Slainte!
ed
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Brian
I think that the problem the SNP have now is that this budget fiasco will, no matter the outcome of the 2009 talks , be repeated in the next two years.
It would probably be better for them to withdraw all concessions made to Labour, tell the Greens they will get 33 million and not a penny more, and tell the Lib Dems to take a hike.
If it is still not passed then resign and lets see how Labour and the Lib Dems would like an election.
Labour are too stupid for words, they have now set the precedent, if in the unlikely even that they ever form a government in Scotland again, that it is acceptable to vote against a governments budget, no matter the consequences.
P.S. On newsnight last night pay for two hospitals and get one Kerr, was never once asked were was the money going to come from to fund Labours proposals.
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RE: Aunty Bella vs The Grey Man this morning on GMS:
googlehoo may have almost driven into a ditch but I did actually miss my turning and ended up down a side road and nearly burned the clutch out trying to get out of the mud !
It was quite entertaining listening !
A minor and well-wrung out point, I know, but can the BBC please stop calling Iain Gray "The Leader of Scottish Labour" because, as we know, there is no such entity as "Scottish Labour".
At best, he is "The Leader of the Labour Party in the Scottish Parliament"
In reality, granting him the Style and Title of "Leader of Scottish Labour" is merely another goddam NuLab BBC Unionist Plot to hide the fact that we all know that he has about enough autonomy to blow his nose without first consulting Broon and Mandy !
Anyone for an Election ? Failing that, Margo for FM !
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As an interested non-Scot this looks like a no lose scenario for the SNP. Either the Greens or the LD's cave in and the budget goes through or there's an election in which the most likely outcome is gains for the SNP and the Tories at the expense of Labour and the LD's thereby improving the parliamentary arithmetic in Salmond's favour. It's very clear that there's no way Annabel Goldie will vote to bring in Iain Gray as an alternative FM so an election would be the only outcome if the budget falls. In that election both Gray and Andy Kerr's seats would be right in the SNP's firing line and they might have to suffer the ignominy of getting in off the regional lists. But I can't see these turkeys voting for Christmas!
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#80 oldnat: "Intimidation? Garbage!."
Your "welcome" to the newbie was like a punch on the nose! You must see the irony?
But relax. I'm not coming back meantime. Nothing new, inventive or imaginative has been contributed in the last month. Just the same endlessly repeated paranoid propaganda. I'll keep an eye on you all, however.
Mind you, I might be tempted back if Bighullaballoo, who has reappeared recently, will tell us how much he lost on Glenrothes, having boasted (in September, I think) about his skill in obtaining great odds. Maybe he backed Labour?
I suppose he's abandoned the plan to deliver a "final" devastating, unanswerable, crushing destruction of his tormentors?
Enjoy your pointless squabble.
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#101 & #108
Alex Ferguson is a member of the Conservative Party, however while Presiding Officer he is obliged to be impartial which means that he cannot vote for any change (as that would indicate a preference) and must vote for the status quo.
To the many others who wonder - it is not as simple as the SNP resigning and then calling an election. If the SNP resign the the opposition parties have a certain number of days, I think 20, to put forward a First Minister and form a party, only if they fail is there an election.
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The media are shielding Gray, they should go after him and demand answers but they won't.
Incidently, there were Tory leafletters at Glasgows main stations this morning. The leaflet I believe was an attack on Labour over the budget, so I'm told.
Did anyone manage to grab one?
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Gedguy, Apologies for typo (117) - no offence (or cleverness) intended, just simple incompetent typing (wearing fingerless gloves as I type in the trees)
Slainte!
ed
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Have you seen this one?
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121. brigadierjohn
Your spat with oldnat is your own (if I may say, I'm not sure it wasn't a bit of a back/cack handed compliment), however, are you not just pi88ed off because you see the economy of your enough-liked Britain going down the drain, and you are taking it out on oldnat?
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#121 brigadierjohn
- Nothing new, inventive or imaginative has been contributed in the last month. -
This to include your own 9 posts? Journalists are always accurate and you can believe everything you read in the papers.
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phenomengirl
"To the many others who wonder - it is not as simple as the SNP resigning and then calling an election. If the SNP resign the the opposition parties have a certain number of days, I think 20, to put forward a First Minister and form a party, only if they fail is there an election."
That has alrady been considered.
See post #92.
It seems even less likely that another administration could be formed after Annabelle Goldie's attack on Iain Gray today.
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Phenomen Girl (122),
Was! And, unless I'm mistaken, the period to find a new FM (who must be accepted by a majority of those voting) is 28 days. Failing that, an election is called.Let Freedom Ring!
ed
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*125
Argh it's Susan Croft again.
"As an English person living in Scotland I am constantly verbally abused by Scottish Nationalists and its not a happy situation at the moment. I hear the same old arguments I must apologise for being English, and past history. I hear constantly, how the English have imprisoned the Scottish etc. All I want to do is live my life and do my job. Instead I have watch everything I say and do, if I am talking about politics I have to be careful it does not involve Scotland. I do not go out much at night in case the sound of a English voice causes any problems to anyone. 'English out or die', was written on a friends car, and she was Scottish, but we were sharing cars."
I wonder if she's real.
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#121 brigadierjohn -
You're quite right! I did bet on Labour and made a very handsome profit, thanks for asking.
But I'm not the sort of person who holds a pathetic grudge for months on end (since September, did you say??!!)
People like you aren't my tormentors, you torment yourself by taking part in your pointless arguments with other people.
But since you've just reminded me of why I stopped posting on these forums in the first place I won't be back.
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126. At 12:57pm on 29 Jan 2009, aye_write wrote:
121. brigadierjohn
Your spat with oldnat is your own (if I may say, I'm not sure it wasn't a bit of a back/cack handed compliment), however, are you not just pi88ed off because you see the economy of your enough-liked Britain going down the drain, and you are taking
Aye- you just thought oldnat's thought's and replied....please! get a grip.
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Oh, BTW, about victories and defeats...
Do you remember Glenrothes, the recent NuLab by-election "victory"?
Yes, Glenrothes.
'nuff said.
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#129
He still is a member of the Conservative Party. He has a constituency office and still deals with the people he represents. His party post does not become vacant when he becomes a PO.
I accept that I was wrong about the days but I did say that I only thought it was 20 days I wasn't sure.
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#128
I was replying to posts 101 and 108 who seemed to have missed this point.
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#131 BigH: Not another farewell? Are you the ghost of Frank Sinatra?
At least you responded. Well done. And I'll take your word for it that you backed Labour. Best wishes - 'til the next time
#127 Handclapping: I counted one previous post, on January 1st. You apparently made that nine. Now we know how the SNP counts its supporters, eh? :-)
I'll now continue my interrupted Sabbatical for a bit longer. Cheers.
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#136 brigadierjohn,
Welcome back, Brig.
"#127 Handclapping: I counted one previous post, on January 1st. You apparently made that nine. Now we know how the SNP counts its supporters, eh? :-)"
You'd be referring to a calendar month then? The common definition of a month is the time from any day of one calendar month to the corresponding day of the next. Check http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/month for instance, making it 9 posts from your good self in the period in question.
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#136 brigadierjohn
Yes, another farewell. And there's no reason why I wouldn't respond. Your faint "praise" isn't required.
I already know you don't understand odds so you wouldn't have any clue about being able to bet both Labour and the SNP and still make money.
Odds do change over time you know. It's possible to bet on both sides and win. Boomakers do it all the time.
However, what I've discovered is that by mixing with low lifes you end up lowering yourself to their level and it's not worth it in terms of time wasted that could be spent on productive activities.
I posted once or twice because I saw that some level of reasonableness seemed to have returned to the board with the departure of the likes of you and some others.
I see however you have simply turned into a "lurker" sniping from the sidelines so I'm off - for good. Life is much better without having to suffer poisonous people.
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#137 Richard: Only because it's you... I see you took the subordinate definition, while my interpretation was the first. Whether you call it a calendar month, a four-week period, or simply January, it's a month. A bit nitpicking by your standards, may I say.
Perhaps I should just have told Handclapping that I didn't attach any special worth or importance to my own posts either. Petty all round, I'd say.
Anyway, you should run away and not be responding to a poisonous lowlife "lurker" like me! (see #138) Very revealing post, eh?
Now, I've really, really finished for a while!
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Come back Bighullabaloo'
ouch! you've done that several times.
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#132 derekbarker
Hey, Derek.
If I can just for a moment pop inside your head - you have spent your whole life feeling underestimated. (I don't - underestimate you - by the way.) Maybe better deal with it. Meant with best wishes.
But that aside, you couldn't annoy me if you tried today. No offence - I liked your post. I can no more read oldnat's head as get the next bus off this planet. But, that's fine.
It is stormy up here tonight.
Good.
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#141
aye-write,
Sorry, cant understand a word of that?
Are you having a break-down? do you need some counselling.
O' dear have you and oldnat parted from the one mind fits all mode?
Chew a Carrot, it might help? if that fails plead ignorance to oldnat.
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#139 brig,
Haha, well spotted, I should have known better.
Nitpicking? Probably, but thank you for noticing that I have standards nonetheless.
I actually mis-read #138 the first time round, and on re-reading I have to say I wasn't overly impressed. As for running away, I don't 'do' running away (tactical withdrawals are a different matter).
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#136 brigadierjohn
As far as I can make out from their accounts, the SNP counts those that pay a sub.
Labour counts all members of any union that pays their political levy to them and all Coop members
The Tories supporters are derived from the value of donations divided by the average sub
The Greens cant count cos there were no eco friendly schools to go to but they know the difference between 33 and 100
The Lib-Dems dont count
Sorry to be political!
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Phenomengirl (134),
He is my constituency MSP, and an excellent one too! I do believe, however, that he will have to stand for re-election (if he chooses to) as an independent. I also would be willing to bet he'll get an increased majority (at least by one, because I could never vote for a Tory)On taking office as PO:Slainte!!
ed
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142 derekbarker
#141
"aye-write,
Sorry, cant understand a word of that?
Are you having a break-down? do you need some counselling."
Is this a service you can offer? You are very into Social fibre.
"O' dear have you and oldnat parted from the one mind fits all mode?"
Jeez, man, I've already been spurned elsewhere :-(
Very funny (actually it was :-)
"Chew a Carrot, it might help?"
I'd need more than some veggies - maybe chew on my friend's labradoodle, I'm a meat eater...
"... if that fails plead ignorance to oldnat."
....and I don't do ignorance.
;-)
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