Budget trigonometry
So where are we on this budget business? What have we learned?
Perhaps, just perhaps, that cataclysmic rhetoric is inappropriate, unhelpful and futile when we are dealing with vital public services and jobs.
I fully accept that the media must share the blame here.
We tend to demand high-energy soundbites when gentle chiding and persuasion would suit the situation better.
But, you know, the voters have long since given up listening to the ranting anyway.
Perhaps we might, all, declare a truce and revert to discursive, analytical politics.
Think of it as like alternative football chants. Instead of howling abuse, perhaps our politicians might advise their opponents, in the subtle understatement which occasionally breaks out from the stands: "You're not very good".
No, I don't think it's going to happen, either.
Another little lesson. John Swinney will be mighty careful in future when dealing with the Greens.
He thought he had a deal - although, to be fair, nothing was absolutely fixed.
He thought he had said enough, including offering a personal assurance as a minister that he would deliver the upgraded offer.
But Mr Swinney's advisers were watching Patrick Harvie when that last minute assurance was given.
The Green co-convener was shaking his head, slightly but palpably.
Seconds later, he and Robin Harper voted against the budget, ensuring its defeat.
However, they were but two.
Forty six Labour MSPs - including one returned from illness and one from maternity leave - voted against the budget, as did sixteen Liberal Democrats.
As I have written previously here, they were perfectly entitled so to do. Otherwise, there is no function in having a vote at all.
However, as I also said, consequences flow from such decisions.
Perhaps some who cast their vote against the budget thought they were registering a protest - but not thwarting the expenditure.
Perhaps they thought the budget would go through regardless.
Perhaps they, like Mr Swinney, thought the Greens would vote other than they did.
As I have also written earlier, they were perhaps not aware of the conflicting pressures confronting Mr Harvie owing to a party which is intuitively averse to political bargaining.
Perhaps they thought, as Iain Gray sought to argue, that voting down the budget need not bring crisis.
He is right in that the existing budget would continue.
However, persisting in thwarting the new budget would undoubtedly mean real problems for real people. This was not a pain-free vote.
I suspect that Mr Gray swiftly concluded as much.
I suspect, further, that he foresaw the political campaigns against his party.
Indeed, the Tories were already out on Thursday morning at Waverley Station with leaflets blaming Labour for blocking expenditure on key services, forcing up council taxes and generally advancing the timescale for Armageddon.
"Spurious", yelled Labour. "Tosh" - or some word that sounds very like it.
But, in their core, they and the Liberal Democrats knew that they risked giving a powerful weapon to the SNP and the Tories if they sustained their attack.
Plus - and I mean this most sincerely, folks - all parties were genuinely seeking a solution.
They knew that it was unacceptable to toy with £33bn.
They care. All of them. They care.
So, in various ways, Labour and the Liberal Democrats sought a deal.
Labour offered to moderate its demands.
The Liberal Democrats offered to sideline their pressure for tax cuts and to focus instead upon common, elevated ground in the search for longer-term solutions to Scotland's problems.
This might include jointly pressing with ministers for borrowing powers to accrue to the Scottish Government.
Remarkable - and, considering the public interest, commendable.
Also at Holyrood, there have been a few subterranean efforts to decry John Swinney's handling of this affair: to suggest that he offered too much to the Tories for town centre regeneration and, hence, too little to the Greens.
I don't buy that. The arithmetic wasn't straightforward. It was more like geometry or trigonometry.
It wasn't a case of: sort the Tories, then turn to the Greens.
He had to reach out, simultaneously, to all the parties - including Labour who were negotiating seriously.
He will have to do the same again next year - which is why he will seek to keep all sides as sweet as possible.
Now, as I said with mild astonishment on Reporting Scotland on Thursday night, the budget may be carried by acclaim. Isn't politics wonderful?
I'm 
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~24~RS~)
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"Labour offered to moderate its demands.
The Liberal Democrats offered to sideline their pressure for tax cuts and to focus instead upon common, elevated ground in the search for longer-term solutions to Scotland's problems."
And this has nothing to do with Alex Salmond suggesting that there may be an election if the budget fails twice?
The Liberal Democrats and Labour have played with the budget, and alas they lost the game!
The Scottish National Party and the Conservatives are in strong positions, who would want to go up against a popular SNP and a reasonable Conservative party as 'the one' who almost cost Scotland 1.8 billion pounds?
Actually, I should not say almost... there is still a chance Scotland can still loose that 1.8 billion pounds.
Then what? The public will not care about the budget, they will see Labour and Liberal Democrats behaving out of order for their own interests.. How can they defend themselves? "We did not believe the budget was right for Scotland." Yes, because loosing 1.8 billion was the lesser of two evils?
It's not suprising that the Liberal Democrats quickly dismissed their key demand. It's almost laughable.
If the budget was not good enough for the people of Scotland, without their tax plans etc, then what has changed now? Or even will the budget be good enough for Scotland despite their plans being ignored or watered down?
Labour and the Liberal Democrats have shot themselves in the foot - big time!
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No longer true;-)
ed
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"Perhaps the opposition should yell back, it's the content and economy...stupid"
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Here we go? the light brigade will charge, sounding off like some real radio station
Kat and Robin giving it big licks over their wounds.
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Declaring an interest, as is fashionable for the moment, I voted SNP for the first time at the last election.
Now it may be that I am gullible or it may be the reality, I honestly don't know, but I do believe the current Holyrood government are doing their best for Scotland - not something I could say about any previous government, London or Edinburgh. Some things I'm not happy with but then perfection is elusive.
The largest oppostion party is Labour and I expect them, indeed urge them to challenge government policy whenever appropriate, that is their current role and that is how our country will be best governed. However, I want their challenges to be constructive and targeted on Scotland's best interest. Instead my impression, right or wrong, is that their primary position is to oppose then look for a reason to oppose. Not objecting objectively, so to speak :) Such appears to have been the case with this budget. That said, Mr Swinney is, no doubt, aware of this handicap and the responsibility for reaching agreement with enough of the other parties is his alone.
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Re "I don't buy that. The arithmetic wasn't straightforward. It was more like geometry or trigonometry" - Brian Taylor.
Wrong Brian!
This was a clear case of MSPs not understanding higher arithmetic and of a Scottish media chasing a negative headline.
This was the LibDems and Labour getting carried away with their opposition to the budget and in doing so forgetting to tally up the consequences.
This was the BBC, The Herald, The Scotsman and the Daily Record chasing a negative headline decrying the SNP whilst failing to understand the greater story.
This was crass stupidity by Patrick Harvie and Robin Harper who are clearly more in interested in activism, protest and dissent than pragmatic politics.
I am not surprised that 24 hours later that people are more contrite, apologetic and downright embarrassed for their part in bringing down the Scottish budget at a time of economic recession.
It is good to see that sense has prevailed and Labour and LibDems have gone back to the negotiating table. I still don't think the Scottish media has learnt their lesson. As for the Greens no one will trust them ever again.
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Labour and the Lib Dems have surely damaged themselves through their intransigence. If they are now prepared to negotiate more realistically, then why didn't they do so in the first place? As well as any financial implications due to the delay they are also wasting a lot of parliamentary time (ok, maybe only the first half of that sentence is valid!).
I suspect you are right Brian, and most of them thought they were registering a protest vote against the SNP/Conservatives/Greens. I'm sure many were very keen to avoid abstaining again!!
As regards the "pressures" on the Greens, well, if they aren't up to the job then let's get someone in who is! I'm sorry, but excuses along the lines of, "Ooh, it all happened so fast! I couldn't make my mind up!", just don't cut it.
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"Labour who were negotiating seriously"!?
Labour have yet to do anything in a reasonable manner since Iain Gray took over.
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Brian - you have made the comment a couple of times about the Green grassroots being apolitical or averse to political bargaining. This is just not the case. Greens, like everyone else, recognise the need to compromise and negotiate and most members I speak to back what Green MSPs and councillors are doing even when they do not agree with every decision. However, the problem with Wednesday's debate was that negotiation was all being done right at the wire and that is when bad decisions get made. What makes good political theatre does not make good governance.
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What you are cofirming Brian is that Labour and the Libdems voted against the budget purely as a matter of course. Not because there was any constructive motive but merely to obstruct the SNP. The Greens on the other hand lived up to their colour by being so naive they didn't realise they had got all the concession they were going to get so they pouted and went off in the huff. Iain Gray appears to be torn between doing what the supreme soviet tells him to do and acting rationally. On the other hand Murphy has maybe got him so frightened he doesn't know what he's doing.
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Can I have some of what Derek Barker is smoking/ ingesting?
His posts are getting more and more psychadelic.
Far out, man!
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So what has changed with the Liberals and Northern British NuLab in the last few days that they are suddenly all reasonableness and light ?
For Tavish, easy - The prospect of being reduced to being the fourth party and more of an irrelevance than they currently are.
For Northern British NuLab, the word has been blasted in from the bunker. Do anything to avoid an election. Do anything to ensure that Broon the unelected British PM doesn't have to face any form of a large-scale vote.
(We can ignore the European elections, they're an irrelevance. Yes, we have done badly, and we have taken on board the message that the British Public has sent us and we will be announcing in the next few days....you all know the drill, we've heard it before).
Once more, Messrs Gray, Harvie and Scott -
This is Real Life.
In voting down the budget, there are Real Consequences to Real People.
Mr Gray, don't worry about apprenticeships. Worry about me and my wife, because we've just lost 40% of her salary, she's been cut to three days a week.
Mr Harvie, my home is insulated but even with extra layers, heating one room, we nearly doubled our gas bill last quarter to the year before. And if it was bad for us, how much worse for others ? Worry about moving forward on renewable energy, although we could clearly heat at least the Parly on the Hot Air coming from your party. £33 million on insulation, nope, wasn't great but it was a bleeding start !
Mr Scott, this is Earth Calling. Even the most lunatical right-wing free-market gun-toting bible-bashing Republican in the States isn't proposing a cut in income tax right now. Tavish, you were nicer when you had the beard, grow it back mate and maybe grow back some decent Liberal principles with it. 2p income tax cut ? You're a nutter ! But then, as a Liberal, you could promise that Scotland would be first on Mars with a ship crewed by the Loch Ness Monster because you know that you will Never Have To Deliver.
All of you, look and learn from Aunty Bella. They've twigged it, they've got it, they've worked it out, not that it was difficult. Talk early, talk often, negotiate and don't Demand dogmatic, self-serving, grandstanding, Grade A1 Finest Texan Nonsense.
A plague on all of your houses, insulated or not.
I challenge the three of you, go back to your constituent surgeries this weekend and explain to them what You did to earn your wages and their respect this week.
(I say them but I mean Us. The Scottish People. I don't live in any of your constituencies. If I did, I'd be queuing already. In fact, Hugh O'Donnell, do you hold any Regional Surgeries ?)
I still say Election Now. We should have a procedure in place like they do in the States where you can have a Recall Election. I'ld be out collecting signatures 24/7.
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"Perhaps we might, all, declare a truce and revert to discursive, analytical politics."
Brian clearly hasn't encountered derekbarker...
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They care. All of them. They care.
Aye brian and you forgot to say labour really dont want an election at the moment (any election by or otherwise).
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Is it perhaps possible that Labour and the LibDems presumed on the Greens putting the Budget through thus allowing Labour and the LibDems the luxury of opposing it without attracitng the opprobium of voting it down and were completely wrong footed by the Greens decision (which was akin to knocking a hole in the bottom of your own boat)?
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What really disappointed me about the Finance Bill vote was that not one of the LibDem or Labour MSPs put the interests of their constituents before their party's.
I'll accept that some took a principled stance, but it was clear that most were happy to be 'lobby-fodder' - doing what their party leadership told them, with the implied expectation of a quid to follow quo.
(That said, a single pound wouldn't even buy water at one of their denim-dominated gigs.)
Come election time, where the sitting member (be it Westminster or Holyrood) is seeking re-election, I make a point of finding out how many times (and on what issues) the individual has voted against his [and it is invariably a male hereabouts] party's position, and thereby demonstrated a measure of integrity in the exercise of free will.
Notwithstanding the fact that an individual will tend to join a party whose general worldview is one he/she supports - some LibDems will, however, admit that they joined a smaller party because of the improved statistical chances of rising through the ranks - total lack of dispute or disagreement suggests disinterest on the part of the Member, which is largely why we have parliaments stocked with people who rarely read more than the executive summary of the reports (if even those) which are supposed to inform their voting in the chamber.
If we truly get the politicians we deserve, then some people have a lot to answer for...
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What goes on in derekbarker's brain (see #4)?
I'm sure that Number Six found Portmeirion less confusing.
Pity poor derek; the rest of us only snatch glimpses of the chaos of his mind, but he can never escape himself...
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Thomas (1),
and deserve a good kick in a higher anatomical region, methinks.Slainte!
ed
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Above all, this shows the fear of Labour and the Liberals that a recourse to the people may be the eventual outcome!
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Well, this may come as a shock, but after seeing Mr Gray's stunning performance as leader to date, I might actually vote for the SNP. I'm still not convinced on independence, and Salmond & Co are still lacking in areas, but at least they appear to be trying.
So, there you have it in writing. But I will still dig at all parties (hopefully constructively).
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#12 Chiefy1724: ouch! Best rant I've heard in ages, agree with you 100% :oD
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#12 Chiefy1724,
Cracking good post!
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Forfarian,
Worth repeating and worth emulating. We need more representatives who are capable of making up their own minds: Slainte!ed
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Brian,
Ah the Eckmeister rules!!
Would we ever have known this from all the pro-Unionist media in this country, including yourself??
Just mention the word 'election' or 'refer to the people' and Grey Iain and U-turn Tavish are running - not for cover - but with begging bowls in hand to the FM!!
What a wonderful week in Scottish politics!! When the new budget was on the verge of being rejected in favour of an election, we find:
* The fearties of Grey Labour jumping over themselves to say 'it wisnae me, Eck'!!
* The Gormless party (as they shall now be known) saying 'see that wee John Swinney he just cannae say that about me, so I'll take my toys and run') looking forward to a Pertick Hervie-free zone in the Scottish Parliament!
* The FibDems almost touching the brink of responsibility and saying that they will ditch their flagship policy just so they are not wiped off the face of the earth should the Eckmeister engineer an election - but then they are all children of David Steel, are they not!!??
* Then, there is decency and integrity - in the face and form of the Dowager Duchess who so clearly showed all these petty self-interested politicians of the Labour and Gormless party that there is actually a much greater agenda at stake here - called 'the best interests of the people and Scotland
Well done the Eckmeister and the Dowager!!
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Every newspaper, every commentator, every broadcast ..... not one headlined the fact that Labour had the major hand in bringing the budget down.
The the name of Labour and it's culpability has been conspicuous in it's absence from prominence in the 'Scottish' media. They did provide the lead on Radio Scotland yesterday with an Iain Gray attack on the SNP !!
Brain writes:
"Forty six Labour MSPs - including one returned from illness and one from maternity leave - voted against the budget, as did sixteen Liberal Democrats.
As I have written previously here, they were perfectly entitled so to do. Otherwise, there is no function in having a vote at all."
Yes, they were entitled to do so, however it is now incumbent on the media to hold them to account, so why aren't they Brian?
Brian writes:
"Perhaps they thought, as Iain Gray sought to argue, that voting down the budget need not bring crisis. He is right in that the existing budget would continue."
No crisis? So why are Labour and the Lib Dems now performing more 'U' turns and twists than is seen on strictly come dancing?
Of course it is a crisis, so much so that it has rightly hogged the headlines in Scotland and made it onto the UK national news. It has been headlined as such, although the headlines said 'SNP government in crisis'.
Brian writes:
"Indeed, the Tories were already out on Thursday morning at Waverley Station with leaflets blaming Labour for blocking expenditure on key services"
They were at Glagow Central and Queen Steet and I for one commend their opportunism, for their leaflet would be the ONLY publication headlining Labour's role in this!!
"Labour offered to moderate its demands.
The Liberal Democrats offered to sideline their pressure for tax cuts."
Right, Iain Gray and Tavish Scott should be grilled as to why they refused to back the budget. Why did the liberals remove themselves from the budgetary process with a ridiculous demand that they now seek to drop?
Why did Iain Gray not moderate his demands prior to the vote? The most important question of course is what exactly were Labour's demands?
Andy Kerr explained on Newsnight after the vote that Labour had asked for Town regeneration, apprenticeships and protection for the NHS.
It would appear that two of these demands were already being met, so why did they continue to vote against?
Brain asks:
"Perhaps we might, all, declare a truce"
No need Brian, the Scottish media are currently looking the other way as Labour come out from behind the bushes.
The poor Greens, they must feel like the proverbial dog that gets kicked whenever someone else farts.
What about Iain Gray though, he initially enjoyed the stench he created - however he's started twitching after realising he's followed through.
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Well put Chiefy!
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#12,
"Mr Scott, this is Earth Calling. Even the most lunatical right-wing free-market gun-toting bible-bashing Republican in the States isn't proposing a cut in income tax right now. Tavish, you were nicer when you had the beard, grow it back mate and maybe grow back some decent Liberal principles with it. 2p income tax cut ? You're a nutter ! But then, as a Liberal, you could promise that Scotland would be first on Mars with a ship crewed by the Loch Ness Monster because you know that you will Never Have To Deliver."
Sorry, just in case anyone skipped over number 12 because the post was too long for you - this really is a jem!
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#20,
Glad to hear it Neil. That said, I look forward to many more constructive arguments with you in the future.
Incidentally - BBC - this is the real story here! People looking at what Labour and the Lib Dems did on budget day, and more importantly why, then reacting with general disgust.
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Brian I'm a bit weary of the unionist media seeking to spread the blame for this debacle across all the parties.
Greenockboy is right in that Gray was given far too easy a time over this. Everyone knows Labour couldn't say yes to an SNP budget any more than they could say I'm resigning from the party as I'm ashamed of our action in Iraq.
If they vote yes now it will be from fear of an election and b*gger all to do with the interests of the people of Scotland.
The LibDems have obviously panicked and bashed Tavish over the head with a longship oar a few times until he came to his senses. Their volte face just looks daft.
Your entreaty to us to believe that "they care, all of them, they really do" is about as credible as the idea that Gordon Brown is cheerful, competent and will lead us out of recession.
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#20 Neil_Small147
"Well, this may come as a shock"
Not a shock, but very welcome.
I'm also glad you're going to carry on criticising all parties.
The SNP need constructive criticism (not much from the opposition in Parliament!), and your critique of the SNP's fairly lamentable communication skills is one I hope they have listened to.
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This is the most sensible thread I have seen with exception of the one or two idiots who never contribute anything sensible.If we could carry on this way we will all benefit from a better picture and do what is right for Scotland!!
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The truth is outing. The Unionist Cabal know it too...
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28. At 5:55pm on 30 Jan 2009, pattymkirkwood wrote:
#20,
Glad to hear it Neil. That said, I look forward to many more constructive arguments with you in the future.
Incidentally - BBC - this is the real story here! People looking at what Labour and the Lib Dems did on budget day, and more importantly why, then reacting with general disgust.
------------------
Had Labour come up with a legitimate reason for voting down the budget, I could have accepted that, as I would have accepted any reasonable response from the SNP.
I will not accept anything from the Lib Dems, as they are simply a joke. First of all they want to INCREASE taxes (remember that one a few years ago) now they want to reduce them by a ridiculous amount.
And while I had little respect for the Greens, who to me a basically a bunch of right-wing environmental fantatics who cannot accept reality, I did warm to their insulation proposal. That had many merits. But then they started to behave like we expect them. About time they grew up and sorted out their internal squabbles at the same time.
In my view, the SNP and the Tories are behaving the way they should be. Scotland is a small country and we appear to be aping Iceland slightly - if only in terms of politics judging by recent events there.
The Greens I think are as attractive as the Scottish Socialists were. At least they were honest about their policies, despite being unrealistic.
Lib Dems are behaving like a wee bunch of schoolboys who want to join the gang, but will only get picked if they suck up to them. Their votes will unfortuantely end up with the Greens, so we will still have a tiny party having a major influence on policy.
Labour are doing what "da management" are telling them in Westminster. They need strong leadership, and now. Andy Kerr is best choice out of the MSPs, and he is a competent politician. But surely there must be a Westminster heavyweight who is prepared to ditch his cosy London seat and get up here and take Labour over.
Regardless of your political views, you must accept that a strong opposition is essential to strong Government. The SNP at times does need reining in. The lack of opposition can produce arrogance, and that is bad for a governing party. It will eventually turn round and bite them on the backside.
The SNP need to smarten up their communication and marketing, as I previously stated. A strong opposition would force them into this.
As many have guessed by reading my posts, I can be rather cynical at times. No if I am now seriously considering the SNP, how many others are?
I want a strong and successful Government up in Scotland. That requires strong MSPs on all sides. This must be in place before independence otherwise come the first crisis everything will go to hell.
The terrorist attack on Glasgow airport showed how everyone managed to work together. So what is stopping them doing this on other fronts?
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One other thing:
It would appear that no-one is interested in following up Iain Gray's clear desire for a vote of no confidence.
Recall, that he publicly asked the presiding officer a question on just such immediately after the budget vote, before reality set in.
Labour's motives revealed in that one unguarded moment.
Now, just imagine if David Cameron had sought the same in Westminster, how do you propose the English media would have reacted?
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It could of been worse!
Ninety years on and 1919
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#29 GrassyKnollington
"Their volte face just looks daft." I have to agree with you about the Lib-Dems.
Their position is the most untenable. While other parties (wanted and got) some concessions from the Government - I have no trouble with minority government - they took a radically different stance and refused to negotiate on it. Labour, as the largest opposition parties might have got away with it, but a party with only 16 MSPs just appears irrelevant doing that. I can't see Mike Rumbles having played such a stupid hand.
Everyone seems to agree that Goldie has played a very clever game - but I'm reserving judgement on the Scottish Tories until we see how they behave at Holyrood once England elects a Tory Government. If she can keep Cameron off Scottish turf, then they might eventually become a real Scottish Party.
Catalonia has done quite well out of having Right and Left wing parties in their own Parliament who fight like the proverbial cat and dog there, but work well together in Catalonia's interests at the Spanish level
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#30
Jeez! what a squeltcher.
"The SNP need constructive criticism (not much from the opposition in Parliament!), and your critique of the SNP's fairly lamentable communication skills is one I hope they have listened to."
Were you ever one of those kirby hoover salesman, oldnat?
Mr suction!
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#33 Neil_Small147,
That about sums it up, I'd say.
Perceptive as ever, Neil.
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12 Chiefy1724
You hit the nail on the head.
If only our politicians had the same common sense.
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#40
Jack you old rogue, where have you been hidden since Glenrothes.
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Brian its yourself the BBC and your unionist MSP friends that are holding Scotland back,you are happy to see Scotland treated as a second thought .We are a country not strathclyde council , the opposition were out to score points no matter how it effects us the general public.Its time the establishment realised Scotland has changed the UK has changed we have moved on how about joining us?
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Neil,
How are the SNP meant to counter accusations of arrogance when the media is so biased against them. How are they meant to improve their 'communications' if they are precluded from getting their message over.
Just last evening, Nicola Sturgeon was badgered by Dimblesnore on QT. I watched and tried to detach myself from my preconceptions but agai I was proved right. He gave free rein to Gove, Kohli (who I am sadly tiring of), the Lib Dem lady and Lord Falconer but continually interrupted Sturgeon. It's unacceptable and borders on farce and bodes ill for democracy in these islands because we are brought up to luxuriate that we are the epitome of democracy, the defenders of it even and yet we are in reality nothing of the sort.
It really is a slog but eventually the SNP will get there.
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#36 ,derekbarker
Pasting the text of Professor Younkins' 2005 article (subject to copyright) isn't big or clever - it's illegal!
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36 derekbarker
Brown = Risk is good for the economy and no more Boom and Bust. enough.
Look for No. 6
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#44
forfarian, I thought is was a pretty good read but hey! look's like it annoyed someone.
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#44 The_Forfarian
Be fair. derek's #36 was certainly big!
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Society is just so inard with the politics of this day and age that any one change to our politics is difficult to understand for most people. It is almost like the vast majority of voters are within the autistic spectrum and have been persuaded to inter-breed the belief that voting must not change. Every general election, I have noticed, the same two colours appear in the same places on map on the politics show.
Now, we have one little change - and be honest, this change is small - the people don't understand it. What can be done? What do we do? Do we change our vote or do what we have been told to do and vote the same? There are also too many people like Brian Taylor and Kirsty Wark who feel they have to brutalise a wee bit of change. Afterall, how the heebyjeeby can Brian honestly insinuate that Labour are being anything other than sincere in what they are aiming for? Labour in Scotland, to the best of my mind, did nothing much for education, they did not instill confidence in any youth training scheme, youngsters who could not read, write or count left school pretty much the same, councils over speant by vast amounts, vast amounts were speant on voluntary services, the NHS was a debical and local councils were ill run. Now, all of a sudden, Labour want a big change. In Brians previous blog I likened Labour to King James VI Bishops, I also liken them to the Tories in Thatchers days who did what they were told. Who recalls the Scottish Secretaries?
I have to admit though, that I really like Jeremy Paxman as an interviewer though.
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Brian, this comment isn't particularly related to this thread but may I ask a question.
Why doesn't the BBC start FMQs 2 minutes earlier and finish 3 minutes later and then you can give your splendid introduction, we hear all of the first question and the last, plus of course your wee chat with your newspaper mate for evaluation?
PMQs get all of 90 minutes on a Wednesday with all the analysis etc. We get slightly less than 30 minutes. Both our PM and FM take questions for 30 minutes.
Isn't there some discrimination here?
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My gf is from the Isle of Man. She calls herself a manx minx.
Anyway, maybe some people in this country could have a wee peek at what their country is like and how it is run. Although I support an autonomus Scotland, I think Alex Salmond was absolutely wrong NOT to discuss the Isle of Man (albeit that a Scotsman can still be murdered there without fear of prison) as an autonomus country within the UK. Maybe, with this wee place off the coast of Beautiful-land, and don't dare say Liverpool, not being so far from home people in Scotland could see what autonomy is all about. In fact, quite a few Scots go there to live. It is not perfect though. It does have its issues but the main issue with Scotland is that most people don't want to lose out on English handouts and Labour is most certainly included in this. Why on earth would the unionists want to lose out on anything and have pride hurt? If Scotland is so worthless to the UK, why exactly are the unionists so desperate to hold onto the land that is a freeby handout?
I believe that to continue to tell people they are worthless, they believe it. People should be told how good they can be.
The message should be:
I think, so I am.
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The first comment I made came up on number 48. My second comment came up on number 48. Maybe number 48 is my lucky number. Woohoo!!! For my lottery numbers, I will choose 4 8 14 18 24 28 and try to get 48 in there some how. Oops, thats seven numbers, OK, I'll drop ...
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I've just read this on the Scottish Politics main page:
'A coming together by Labour and the SNP on apprenticeships will be for the benefit of unemployed young people
Iain Gray
Scottish Labour leader'
Is Ian Gray trying to do a 'saviour of the Scottish budget' by any chance? It wisnae me scenario?
He ought to be ashamed of his party's behaviour. On Wednesday he did nothing for the good of Scotland.
What he should have been doing is supporting the SNP who are doing their best (hands tied behind their backs) to ensure people keep their jobs. Where these thousands of apprentices are going to serve apprenticeships is anyone's guess.
But they'll take youngsters off the benefit system for a few years, won't they Ian. That's what it's all about to you. Plus, of course, you don't want to be thought of as unco-operative do you? The Tories put you to shame and I've never voted tory in my life.
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The last couple of days has been truely unbelievable. I actally wondered if the SNP and Greens were in cohoots and tricked the Lib-Lab coalition into voting the budget down just so they could pull this off...
... actually, I am still wondering if this was the case because I have serious difficulty believing that the Libb-Labs are so inept!
Tell me if i'm wrong but how I view this, is that a minority government in Sctotland might actually be a more powerful platform for the party in power than it would be with a straight majority. If the encumbent government happen to be competent and they know how to work the system, then there are going to be many occasions where 'failure to act' is seen as the oppositions' fault rather than the governments fault.
In conclusion, the football results are as follows...
Independiente SNP 1 v Labour Unionited 0
Green'ock More turn 0 v Liberal Demonstrous 0
AK Conservativ 1 v Margo 2 *;o)
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OFF Topic I'll post Team GB Opposition In Writing since it looks like we are all going to have to dig deeper to help the 2012 Olympics out of lack of bawbees.
I think the SNP should milk the Lib Dems votes all that they can if only to leave the Gray team foundering in the dark and pleading to GB for Help if that is he's got the time from rehearsals in his one man show in saving the World! They might see how Hamas feels when nobody acknowledge their existence.
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43. At 9:54pm on 30 Jan 2009, bluelaw wrote:
Neil,
How are the SNP meant to counter accusations of arrogance when the media is so biased against them. How are they meant to improve their 'communications' if they are precluded from getting their message over.
-----------------
What I was talking about arrogance I meant that if a party is in power without substantial opposition then they can become arrogant. Look at Labour! The Tories were wiped out in 1997 and went through turmoil, and Labour got arrogant.
Power does corrupt: the level depends on the individual. Alex Salmond is not arrogant. He is smug, and at times he may come across as a touch arrogant, but I think that is partly due to the lack of opposition - bar Ms Goldie.
With regards to dealing with a hostile press, it is all down to the delivery.
They have to THINK before opening their mouths. Labour and the Conservatives will discuss things with their press officers. I know the SNP have these, but they do not appear to be of the same calibre yet. And I always get the feeling that Alex prefers his own way.
The other problem I think is inexperience of being in Government. No SNP politician has had this opportunity - councils don't count.
This is shown no better than by Christine Grahame (bar her most recent one). Timing is crucial. You do not waste time on historical or vaguely culture motions during a major crisis for Gods sake.
The media love her. Lots of pressure on Gordon Brown and good old Christine comes up with something to deflect attention.
The press will do anything for a story, and although they are biased they will target anyone. The recent issue with the House of Lords is a prime example.
In military circles, the primary target is alway the enemy communications. Always.
The SNP need to get smarter. Glenrothes proved they are not infallible. True, they made huge gains but they still failed to take the seat.
Perhaps they need to ease off the independence stuff for a while. People are wary of that, especially considering the current economic climate. The SNP say we will be richer due to oil, whisky and tourism. But how does that help factory workers recently made redundant?
I appreciate it is difficult without financial autonomy. Perhaps a Conservative Government will provide more on that, but then who knows.
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#52 quietscotsmac
Can't believe I've been so blind!
"But they'll take youngsters off the benefit system for a few years, won't they Ian. That's what it's all about to you."
Thanks. Scots Budget used to reduce UK unemployment figures!
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"Forty six Labour MSPs - including one returned from illness and one from maternity leave - voted against the budget" -
Would you not just be ashamed to be a Labour supporter. Disgraceful to the nth degree, but unmistakably Labour.
From watching FM questions it is clear to see the good will that comes from the SNP and Tories towards the Scottish people. Similarly it is painfully obvious to see the bitterness and anger that comes from Labour.
This lack of cooperation will only serve to strengthen the SNP. It's all good.
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When I was a teenager in Central Fife, the political choices were Labour or Communist. (1950s - 1960s). No one else stood a chance and at that time it was difficult to foresee a sea change coming.
At that time members of both parties were as honourable and dedicated as you could hope for. These days it is difficult for me to try to make the same claims for them.
Where have the men of honour gone? The Communist Party is long gone of course and outside of Fife seemed to have little support at the best of times. (It always amused me that they were hated more by the Labour movement than the Labour Party hated the Tories). Mainstream communism has all but vanished but of the few communists that I did know, they were open and honest.
I wouldn't be seen dead supporting either of these parties these days, I have too much self respect. Surely there must be some good men and women left in the movement; are they too cowed to put their heads above the parapet? How do these people explain the lies and deceit of their party mouthpieces and officials to themselves? How long can honourable people stomach what is being said and done everyday in their names?
It would seem to me that there is very little honour left within the Labour movement and that is usually a portent for the collapse of a system. Without the blind support of the BBC and Newspaper barons to supply the spin, what would still remain of a once great and necessary party? Unless someone can raise the standards within the Scottish Labour movement it would seem likely to me that it will go the same way as the Communist party - into oblivion.
Best wishes, all.
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Brian
If you were transformed into a Persian pasha overnight you'd not be shocked by the subject on your Persian Parley blog. See
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7837194.stm
post by Akhtar Qasemi
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51. ScaraBraeSingleMalt
"Maybe number 48 is my lucky number. "
Your on a winner it was was a good vintage year! in my humble opinion....
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Neil
Oh please. Salmond is not even guilty of being smug. I would be loathe to interfere with your (welcome) Damascene conversion to the cause (mostly) but Salmond is simply at the top of his game. He radiates a confidence which I for one wish so many more Scots would themselves exude because confidence is really only a state of mind. He's well researched, forensic even and just as importantly not not afraid to be emotional about these things as we saw on Thursday. We who support independence are hugely fortunate to have him on side.
I agree that the SNP do need to change. They need to get more ruthless, utterly ruthless with these Nulab gangsters and these appalling people who announce themselves as LibDems. That's how they should express their intelligence, their smartness as we continue on.
I was shocked at Goldie's integrity the other day welcome as it was. I'm sorry though; I'll never ever ever trust the Tories and with good reason.
As you might imagine I don't agree that independence should be put on the backburner at all but if the interests of Scotland are served by the SNP concentrating on the issues at hand then so be it. But for me these problems must be put in the context of Scotland being ruled by London - a hard tune to discern amidst the domineering Unionist clatter.
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#59 handclapping,
Did the Iranians not just ban BBC tele or maybe I am thinking of BBC Persian radio?!
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#58
Exactly
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#62 pmk
They took away their work permits, I think.
I was amused by the fact the subjects were
Its Persian Oil
and
the Persian media are biased.
Absolutely not the subjects we get on this blog!
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Though it's easy to blame the Greens for taking down the budget they were using the only negotiating tactic they had which is, "If we don't get what we want we're going to vote against the budget." If John Swinney knew that the budget would pass whatever he offered them then the Greens would have no bargaining chip whatsoever.
Saying that, timing is also important in negotiations and the Greens should have struck when the iron was hot and taken what they had managed to extract from John Swinney. Now the Lib-Dems and Labour appear to have come to the negotiating table they are not the kingmakers in the deal as they were before.
What is a huge black mark against Labour and the Lib-Dems is that at an early stage they decided that they were going to vote against the budget and put in demands which couldn't be accommodated to ensure that negotiations would fail.
There are six groupings in the Scottish Parliament who John Swinney had to get to agree to a budget for it to pass, Labour, Conservative, the Lib-Dems, the Greens, Margo MacDonald and his own party the SNP. However Tavish Scott, Iain Gray and Patrick Harvie appeared to think that they were all in a two way negotiation with the SNP not in a multi-way negotiation amongst all the parties in the Parliament. Any concessions that John Swinney made to one party had to be done in a way which didn't compromise the concessions to another.
When the Lib-Dems declared they were going to vote no with their demand for a 2p tax cut John Swinney had to negotiate with the remaining five. When Labour declared they werer going to vote no with their uncosted demands for apprenticeships he had to negotiate with the remaining four which were his own party, the Conservatives, Margo MacDonald and the Greens. He nearly achieved it but the Greens wanted more than he could give.
Now in all this negotiating Brian, I heard John Swinney hurl no abuse at anyone, even when his budget deal collapsed. The only ones I heard hurling abuse where the Labour Party with their, "Crass and arrogant SNP", tagline which all the party members parroted when the budget failed to pass because they and the Lib-Dems had decided to vote no not because it was a bad budget but because they were playing silly games and posturing.
Brian you said, "They care. All of them. They care.", and you're quite right they do care but about different things. The SNP care about Scotland and even though it hurts to say it I'd probably also have to include the Tories in that description but Labour and the Lib-Dems care only about hating the SNP.
Brian you also said that the restarted negotiations by Labour and the Lib-Dems is, "Remarkable - and, considering the public interest, commendable." but as the public wake up to the fact that it wasn't a lone Green gunman who took down the budget, as the media would have it, but that it was a block of very silly Labour and Lib-Dem MSP's and their posturing leaders who caused all this fuss by refusing to negotiate then the about-turns and and back-tracking on non-negotiatable positions in both Labour and the Lib-Dems has become dizzying. All that Labour and the Lib-Dems care about at the moment is trying to keep their bums on the seats in Holyrood as they look into the abyss of an election and the abyss stares right back into them. Alex Salmond is no Dirty Harry in either physique or mindset but with the election threat he took a leaf out of Inspector Callahan's book and said to both Gray and Scott:
"I know what you're thinking. "Did he get thirty six percent or only thirty five percent?" Well, to tell you the truth, in all this excitement I kind of lost track myself. But being as this is a Holyrood election, the most powerful tool in Scotland, and would blow your seats clean off, you've got to ask yourself one question: Do I feel lucky? Well, do ya, punk?""
Good on yah Alex.
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DougtheDug
Loved the dirty harry quote.
Here's hoping my fellow countrymen/women wake up to the shambolic behaviour of the labour / lid dems.
Regards
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Brian,
"They care" "They really care"
Yes Brian,
As a body, they care about the pound/s in their pocket - there are probably a number who do indeed care about people generally and the people they represent in particular, but for most this is a money making career, coupled with an exercise in power, not service.
Now that is fine for you guys in the media - you are entitled to get six million quid a year if you can find someone stupid enough to pay it out - (oh sorry that's us!), but Politicians should be in this for one reason and one reason only - to improve people's lives on a year by year basis - once they stop planning to do this and stop listening and acting on what we want, and most of them stopped doing this many many years ago, they should get out of politics.
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61. At 01:17am on 31 Jan 2009, bluelaw
Well we can disagree our how we perceive Alex - that applies to anyone.
You got it right - the SNP must become ruthless, but in a way where they show themselves to be accommodating as well.
Alex made a mistake with his hardball " we won't take no for an answer" over the bridge. Playing hardball over the budget is more acceptable because (a) it affects us all and (b) Swinney was not confirming anything prior to funding being agreed.
The budget approach worked in the SNPs favour this time, despite the media trying to hide it. But I wish the Greens and Lib Dems would simply disappear. Labour have come out badly for once, and people do see through the media headlines for once.
68. At 12:40pm on 31 Jan 2009, Sheneval:
You are right about politicians. Could the Scottish Government not bring in a law whereby MSPs could only work outside of Parliament in say a charity or public sector role? Probably impossible but it might, just might attract the right sort of people into poltics - those who wish to serve their country first.
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Salmond was absolutely right to say he wasn't taking No for an answer over the Forth rd bridge fiasco. He was absolutely right to insist that funding was sensibly spread over a number of years and absolutely right to insist it went ahead off the back of Brown's insistence on public projects to help the economy. I fail to see how it could be said that Salmond handled it badly, or smugly, or arrogantly when he faced down the bare-faced hypocrisy of Nulab and evident double-standards when dealing with Scotland.
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I am sorry Brian but if they all care , they really care - they have got a funny way of showing it.
they care that much that Mr grey was asking for a vote of confidence not 10 minutes after the vote. just as well it was not a vote of confidence in him self!
I'm getting fed up asking when the lib dems are going to realise that labour are taking the complete rip out of them time after time.
it is time for tavish Scott to stand on his own 2 feet walk out of the calman commission and start campaigning for a 3 question referendum .
1. -status quo.
2.- full fiscal autonomy / devolution max
3. Independence.
a straight vote, no conditions , the option with the highest vote takes the spoils. nothing to do with %ages or how many people vote and the vote to be overseen by united nations monitors.
sad to say, but that's what would be required if past behaviour is anything to go by.
sid
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More likely to get a run-off scenario through parliament (hypothetically) than a straight run-off for three options. I.e. Say the status-quo was least popular in first round - move forward to full fiscal autonomy vs. independence (get a 'manufactured' majority one way or another).
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71. At 3:43pm on 31 Jan 2009, sidthesceptic wrote:
it is time for tavish Scott to stand on his own 2 feet walk out of the calman commission and start campaigning for a 3 question referendum .
1. -status quo.
2.- full fiscal autonomy / devolution max
3. Independence.
---------------
Sorry Sid, but the SNP have already stated that they prefer AC/DC to Quo......... :p
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#73 Neil_Small147
"Sorry Sid, but the SNP have already stated that they prefer AC/DC to Quo......... :p"
Neil, that is actually very funny!
I maintain you are welcoming a new liberated self following your proclaimation of intent to vote SNP!
(Yes, I'm only ribbing you. I was delighted to hear it, really :-)
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you don't surprise me Neil ,
you don't know what to say so lets just make a joke .
just for you i will change option no .1 to
what has failed us in the past 10 years or
what labour would tell us is the best thing we can get .
or Mr brown says that's all you're getting while i am in charge.
Sid
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any one know why giggity Gray bottled it over his scheduled appearance on Question Time from Fortwilliam ?
surely not post budget stress.
The more I think about how our media would have treated Salmond and Swinney in the TV studios had they brought down a Labour budget in the midst of a recession and risked 35 000 jobs the angrier I get.
Can you even imagine the relentless interrogation they'd have received at the hands of the likes of Brewer, Campbell etc?
Compare this with the " aren't they ALL a disgrace/ here Mr. Gray, hide under this chair " reaction we got when Labour and the Lib Dems daft posturing caused it to fall.
If only the Nationalists had such a loyal damage limitation team.
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#73
Hey! neil, have you joined the flag waving
mob, O' A'r, well a guess a weak soldier is better to surrender than fight on?
So do you now support the idea of a European defence force for Scotland, hey! 2'Para' can become Euro flier's.
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Brian
I see your bosses are headlining GB's "no clear map". Is this to excuse the running around like headless chickens now or the future when we find we've totally lost it.
But to Budgets; we've had eversomany from NuLabour. In the old days we used to get something for our money like a NHS but all that stuff has been "bought" on the PFI never-never and is still to be paid for. So what have we had for our taxes over the last decade and how come we're in a worse position than everyone else?
If we'd had a proper socialist gov't for 12 years we'd at least had a workers paradise, if nothing else.
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No third option on the referendum. We've wasted enough time as it is. No Federalist nonsense either. Time to choose Scotland. More of the same or a clean break.
I agree. Nulab get a ridiculously soft ride. That's why this incessant accusation of smugness and arrogance levelled against Salmond irritates me - and I try my best to be objective about the personalities involved despite what you might think. What about the sheer banality of Gray or the inanity of Scott and their arrogance towards the Government. Gray in particular is loathesome. He's fast becoming as detestable as Murphy.
They still can't get over not being in power. That's still at the heart of things here.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#79 bluelaw
That split the momevent last time, no?
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No a-w, there was no previous referendum on independence. It was a referendum on the creation of a Scots Assembly. What split it last time was the fear that it would be useless because it had no tax raising powers. The Scots Parliament at present already has tax raising powers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_devolution_referendum,_1979
BTW, when you think about 1979 it really was a disgrace.
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#82 bluelaw
Yes, I'm sorry. Thank you, I was being philisophical.
My point was merely that we want to take the less confident with us.
Thanks for the link :-)
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#82 bluelaw
Aye-write was right about the movement being split - but not by the 79 referendum. It was the analysis by the Nationalist Movement (primarily within the SNP - but also within the Labour Movement eg the SLP) in response to the referendum and the election that caused the "split".
The 1980's was a turbulent period in Scottish politics, as groups were proscribed from parties, parties, cross-party groups rose and fell, people changed parties. Interesting times - but from that arose the modern SNP, and a Labour Party in Scotland that was prepared to push for a more powerful Scottish Parliament.
I know you tend to see things in a simple contrast between Independence and the status quo. But the "status quo" would be a helluva lot worse if it hadn't been for the split that aw referred to.
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Time for us to be courageous not cautious ;-) I understand what you mean a-w but lets rely on that great Scottish trait of getting straight to the point here. We cant be a federation. We either have the powers or we don't. Enough is enough. No more playing around. We are either a country or we are not.
It's similar to when you ask a question a certain way you know you'll get the right answer and that way in which you ask and you just know that you won't. I think the choice should be direct and straight up.
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#85 bluelaw
Of course I would love that to be true. I know it is in the sense that you can make your own brain feel able to take such decisions - you have, I have.
But it's different when goups are involved i.e. the electorate. This has to be an altogether more careful process, or we could very well find, in pushing (I don't like the connotations), we end up with exactly the opposite result from the one we desired. My opinion anyway :-)
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I suppose fiscal independence is another stepping stone and would be perhaps the penultimate nail in the Unionist coffin. But if we are endlessly 'stalled' and end up in some constitutional quagmire that IMHO the Quebecois or Basques or Catalans find themselves in then that's not good enough. I am impatient. I want my country back and I want it on track asap. Of course though I'll trust to the democratic will of the Scots but I for one will feel an immense anger if the Unionists and their media conspire to thwart independence. We do not enjoy a level playing field in these things.
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#87 bluelaw
I appreciate where you are coming from bluelaw. Level playing field, no. But we know that. That means we are not necessarily therefore at a disadvantage :-)
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#88
ok aye-write and Bluelaw since you guy's
have locked horns on the history of Scotland I thought I'd post this link.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotland_in_the_High_Middle_Ages
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#89 derekbarker
Derek, you won't like my answer. Can you guess where I learned it!!
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#89 derekbarker
"locked horns"?
Ah, no doubt you see them that way, since Labour doesn't allow public debate. You have the same principles as Blair?
You obviously totally misunderstand the nature of the National Movement. It understands the history, but looks forward to the future.
You guys are locked in perceptions of the past. Your link simply demonstrates the limitations of the Unionist stance.
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#89 derek:
Your point is? (Now where have I heard that before?)
Still looking backward(s), my sweet?
gee-tee
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#89. derekbarker
The history of New Labour.
The party your in love with and will support till eternity!
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#90 hello folks .... aye_write ... does Derek nae realize your a country quine ... nae a guy ! I see its business as usuall wi the Scottish media playin unfair wi the SNP. What a pity. Och its a sair fecht for half a loaf .
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It's good to see that Glenrothes got the Carbuncle Award and I see that the trophy is a big red blob (or carbuncle if you like)...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/7858861.stm
... well in all honesty can anyone disagree with this since they did indeed vote for a Big Red Carbuncle?
*;o)
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#91
On the contrary Oldnat?
Has an indocterine of idea's failed?
[Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]
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#91
Oldnat, you and your colleague's are clearly
confused to whether Scotland is a Nation and not a State? So what is the definition you seek?
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#97 derekbarker
Oooh that's a hard one!
How about nation-state. That's got a nice ring to it for the future, don't you think?
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#97 derekbarker
Exactly Derek! Good point.
Scotland is only a nation, and not even a sovereign one.
We should be:
.....a sovereign state.
Super, two new voters for the SNP!
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#98
Could you define this link as responsible?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_National_Liberation_Army
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#99
aye-write, if you chose state? do you also choose the path to which states gain control
and how would you define that state within the wider act of the EU? and if you create a federal state, do you accept a president.
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I hope wikipedia is not being cited as an attempt to resolve an argument here.
It seems clear to me Scotland is a nation without a state, and the UK is a state with no corresponding nation. No confusion whatever from any of the posts on this board.
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99. At 10:44pm on 31 Jan 2009, aye_write wrote:
#97 derekbarker
"Exactly Derek! Good point."
Well! dontcha just luv the support you get from the labour minded people.
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#99 aye_write
No thanks, that's Westminster doctrine. We should go back to the good old Scots doctrine of a sovereign people. See the Declaration of Arbroath.
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#97 derekbarker
My goodness are you on double time or are you in line for a peerage with all its tax free benefits? Yes/No will suffice.
Freedom from the UK governance
ps others no error messages now if HTML wrong.
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#103 derekbarker
"Well! dontcha just luv the support you get from the labour minded people."
Labour and minded! You get that?!
Kidding... ;-)
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#100 derekbarker
Of course the content of your link is "responsible". It's a factual description of an occurence. It says -
"There have been claims that the SNLA are a false flag organisation, designed to blacken the name of Scottish independence"
Was your link to it, in this context, "responsible".
Afraid not, you are desperately trying to make links between SNP supporters and advocates of "ethnic" nationalism.
The only recent example I can find of such appalling behaviour is of a current Labour PM demanding "British Jobs for British Workers".
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mmm my post was referred to the moderators ..... seems you cant use Doric in your posts .
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108
Come on Neil, defend the act of separation?
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77. At 5:08pm on 31 Jan 2009, derekbarker wrote:
#73
Hey! neil, have you joined the flag waving
mob, O' A'r, well a guess a weak soldier is better to surrender than fight on?
So do you now support the idea of a European defence force for Scotland, hey! 2'Para' can become Euro flier's.
--------------------
Weak soldier? What are you going on about?
I've made it clear I vote for the party that I feel gives me the best options. When I lived in England I voted Conservative, since under Kinnock the Labour Party - whilst being reformed - was still weak and tied to much to the unions.
In 1997 I voted Labour. The reason being the Conservatives had been in power for too long and were arrogant. They needed the proverbial kick up the backside.
I refrained from voting SNP last time around for two major reasons:
1. My SNP candidate is poor and ignored two letters sent, whereas both my Labour MP and MSP responded immediately. The issues were regarding my local LABOUR council.
2. I do not respect any party which requires the name of their best known MP to be heading the name - ie Alex Salmond for First Minister. It worked, but it was pure spin. If the local candidate has to rely on the most powerful member of their party then that shows weakness.
I am now supportive of the SNP with regards to their current governing of Scotland. They are still in my opinion far from being able to run a fully independent Scotland, but they have made some progress.
The SNP is severly lacking in communicating their policies in a professional fashion, but this is more down to inexperience.
I do not like Sean Connery being wheeled out supporting an independent Scotland when he doesn't live here, much as I dislike JK Rowling supporting the Labour Party. Both individuals are wealthy enough (which does not bother me) to live wherever they wish, and to be frank they are unaffected by whatever happens to Scotland.
The SNP have been most professional is trying to run a minority Government by trying to reach agreement with the other parties. They have not tried to decapitate the other leadership.
For the past year I have been sitting neutral. That was until last week when the Labour MSPs made such an obvious attempt to unseat Salmond without thinking about the country they are supposed to represent.
I will still disagree with certain SNP policies. But a democracy allows you to do that. Better to have a debate than accept whatever the Government of the day decides.
I'd say I am stronger than you. I am prepared to accept when I am wrong, but I will also defend what I think is right. If that upsets the hardcore support, so be it.
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#104 handclapping
Oops, corrected! My match sticks fell out of my eyes :-)
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#108
Rabbie, ya slikit timorous lad! where u wheelie been, a good year to u mucker!
Scurry those ferrets.
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#106
No aye-write I'm afraid not!
Good lordy, can you not just say what you want to, without the clap/trap nonsense.
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Nu Liebour, nu sleaze, nu 'britain',
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article5581570.ece
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#107
0' dear oldnat you have lost the plot'
Scottish oil for Scottish citizens?
What ever will you advocate next?
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#112. derekbarke
Ferociuos Upstarts Tear Raw Exposed Tender Skin. You weasel you!
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#112 Derek my wheelie bin blew awa in the winds the last few days .... My post before last had some Doric in it and a wee bit about the media being biased which they obviously are since its been reported to mods... is quine a swearword ?
Neil ... good on ye ... i hope a lot more like minded folks are going the same way ..
Oh and Happy New year to ye all .
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#110
Fair dues Neil, it is your democratic right to choose who ever you feel is best suited to run our affairs.
Can I point out that the snp government
has done little to nothing with it's manifesto pledges, can I also point out that the snp didn't think labours inititive for more cash for apprenticeship was acceptable?
Many of the snp supporters have been having a go at glenrothes recently, what they fail to say is that glenrothes is led by an snp councillor and that the snp admin put a 2% claw back on all 32 council what is resulting in poorer schools, hospital ect budgets.
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#113, #106 derekbarker
Derek, please! You said:
"Well! dontcha just luv the support you get from the labour minded people."
I said
"Labour and minded! You get that?!"
meaning do you get Labour people with minds.
And you said:
"No aye-write I'm afraid not!"
You are really likeable Derek :-) :-)
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#116
Cynical, now, now keep it clean, you dont want to paint an aggressive picture of the snp do you?
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#119
Go to bed aye-write, Jeez............
Your one minded mode has you baffled yourself?
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Derek:
#118.
Derek, the SNP have gave more to councils. The problem with the deal between councils and the Scottish Government has been that councils have been allowed to spend their funds more independently, and are capable of ignoring the SNP manifesto pledges.
In all fairness you if you step back, and begin to take a balanced view we can see why certain councils are not fullfilling SNP promises...
Each councils have their own problems. Therefore I do not mind that councils can ignore Government policy, so long as the money goes towards fixing their problems but so long as councils do not create policies of their own.
But like we have witnessed some councils, including Labour run councils.. have been true to their word and have worked on SNP promises which councils are partly responsible for.
Is this not a better system? Or shall we be happier seeing one Government force her agenda through and deny that councils face different problems.
The SNP have managed to get some promises through Parliament, they still have two years left to go.
They are a minority and will not manage to get everything past. But circumstances have changed, we are in a recession, I do hope that neither SNP nor Labour Government focus on their own interests by pushing through expensive plans untill the economy is in better shape.
That goes for ID cards and Trident...
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118. At 00:38am on 01 Feb 2009, derekbarker wrote:
#110
Fair dues Neil, it is your democratic right to choose who ever you feel is best suited to run our affairs.
Can I point out that the snp government
has done little to nothing with it's manifesto pledges, can I also point out that the snp didn't think labours inititive for more cash for apprenticeship was acceptable?
Many of the snp supporters have been having a go at glenrothes recently, what they fail to say is that glenrothes is led by an snp councillor and that the snp admin put a 2% claw back on all 32 council what is resulting in poorer schools, hospital ect budgets.
---------------------
Did I say they had fulfilled their pledges? Nope. But then no party ever has.
They certainly have done nothing on public transport. Student Loans I don't agree on them going - the cost to the taxpayer is already astronomical. (Figures are in the public domain).
They announced the Forth Road bridge in the wrong manner.
I wish they would shut up about b*****y Iceland as well.
Glenrothes kicked them up the backside, and it was sorely needed.
Their nuclear policy is questionnable. How many people here know that smoke alarms contain radioactive material? Radiotherapy and xrays rely on radioactive material. What determines a nuclear-free Scotland?
However........
Labour was going to close Monklands (or Hairmyres or Wishaw hospital). That would have affected me directly.
Sturgeon kept the hospitals open. I have to take a relative to Monklands ever 3-6 months. Had it closed god knows what would have happened.
Sturgeon has also made inroads into cancer treatment waiting times. Labour could have done this but she doesn't want excuses, she wants results. (no extra cost by the way).
Mr Gray is one of the worst opposition leaders of any party I have witnessed. He makes Ian Duncan Smith look like George Galloway on acid.
Add Tavish Scott and omg is this all we have up here? To be fair, certain SNP MSPs are not much better. They seem to think it is ok to chuck in nice motions praising someone who's second-cousins-four-times-removed- grandmother's-friend's-bingo-partner once stopped over at Prestwick for refuelling on the way to Jibrovia (apologies to Mr Connolly).
So as you can see I'm still cynical as ever. But I do try and make an informed choice.
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#115 derekbarker
HELLO! The SNLA are a wee minded organisation, like those others you decry Derek.
That's why we support the SNP!
Having a little problem with the alphabet there Derek!
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#121 derekbarker
It must be dificult for those of you with none mind to get the idea of one mind, but never mind!
:-D
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#124
aye-write I'm not asking the question of your father and oldnats relationship?
I merely draw your attention to the dangers of nationalism, who would of thought that from a nation like Germany a corporal would have risen from that massive population to take the Germans into the Abyss.
You have already mentioned splits in the snp, how many out there may just get overwhelmed by the notion of nationlism?
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#115 derekbarker
Oil?
You would have persuaded more Scots to support the Union if your lot (and the similarily conservative Tories) had bothered to create an Oil Fund, as Gavin McCrone suggested to them, and used the revenue for structural improvements to the economy, instead of propping up their pretensions to being a world power.
Persuade me that using the oil revenues to continue to have WMD and wage war in Iraq. You never know, you might turn me into a Unionist!
Of course, you oppose WMD and the Iraq war as much as I do.
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#120, What sort of picture do you think you are painting of Regional Brit-Lab Derek?
All those posts in rapid succession (from c5 o'clock to c1) - look an awful lot like paid work to me!
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#126 derekbarker
Your attempt at the tired old Labour strategy of equating any kind of Nationalism with the Nazis (been taking lessons from Anne Moffat have you?) doesn't work.
It would be equally easy (and stupid, and immoral) for us to try to equate Socialism with Pol Pot's regime.
However, it's much more accurate to compare the Labour Party (which abandoned Socialism a long time ago) with the Tories. Not much to choose between Blair and Cameron.
Why don't you move to a Socialist Party which reflects your ideas?
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#123 Neil. Delighted to see you supporting the SNP. You are very welcome. Love your analogy of Ian Gray.
Now, is there anyone else out there who wants to come over?
How anyone can support that shambles of a party Labour is beyond me.
Freedom
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#128 pmk
Could equally well be ADHD
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#129 oldnat
I haven't found any party that remotely gets near socialism. It was a woman from Solidarity who started the socalled "Campaign against Charges" in Fife that wanted to allow the rich to continue to pay 4GBP pw while the poor also had to pay the same. No "from each according to their ability" there.
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#129 oldnat
You are right about the Labour being tories now. When I left many moons ago Labour was a party that a socialist could join. I never trusted the Russians after the war. When I got back it was all spivs and con-men and none of them believed a word of what they told the voters that they represented. I'm not surprised they took tea with Thatcher.
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While we chat to each other here, it's worth remembering how accurate BT is when he says - "But, you know, the voters have long since given up listening to the ranting anyway."
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#132 handclapping
You may be right. However, derek could always start one.
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re #132, 133
and don't go putting aye_write on to me; I'm enjoying a little gloom.
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#135 oldnat
see #131
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#126,
Getting desperate there Derek!
Here is a wiki link for you,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_Law
First Para:
"Godwin's Law (also known as Godwin's Rule of Nazi Analogies)[1] is an adage formulated by Mike Godwin in 1990. The law states: 'As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one.'"
Godwin's law has since been expanded to all other forms of online discussion groups. It represents a serious flaw in logic via both associationalism (e.g. "Hitler may have been a veggy, veggies are bad"), and cause.
The piece also has an interesting section on the real reasons why it is employed ... might be worth a read?
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#136 handclapping wrote:
"and don't go putting aye_write on to me; I'm enjoying a little gloom."
You called? And oldnat doesn't live in my house ;-)
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#138 pattymkirkwood
Wonderful post.
If you weren't a guy, I'd kiss you for that!
(if you're "that" kind of guy, I still wouldn't) :-)
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#133 handclapping
"I never trusted the Russians after the war."
Did you trust them during the war?!
:-) :-) :-)
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#139 aye_write
I really do have an almost perfect English accent so I was worried by what you do to anglophones 8-)
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#141 eyes-right
We had to and don't be cheeky young lady!
8-)
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#131, handclapping - could well indeed; I couldn't possibly comment.
#140, oldnat - thanks for that ... I think. Wikipedia has to be useful for something after all!
Anyway, just had to get that Godwin's law post out there; I think I will leave the boards to you real night-owls now.
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#142 handclapping
You know handclapping, I could not help but like that guy! And all I wanted was for him to have a converation with me! Is that so wrong? (Am I that scary!)
He is either:
- disappointed in the standard of my company
- frightened as I post too much (like a stalker!)
- terrified of human relationships (but he is married, so?)
- thinks he might let me down (I did kind of 'praise' him a bit!)
- doesn't even care
Obviously he is unimpressed. So I thought I would post a 'cheeky' post to poke him in the trousers. I am fun after all.
But the laugh is, that didn't work either! So I must stop doing the Angledangle and dangle no more!
It is my loss - I thought he was really charming and funny and great to have around. But so is it his loss - if inclined I could match for him.
So, you're quite safe. And so it seems am I!
;-)
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Thought you may like the following article, after all it involves a peer many people of Scotland respect…Ha ha…
Lords fiasco: Labour hit by new lobby row.
oldnat and brownedov you are right, It is about time we got rid of the system of first past the post and the two party politics we are currently shackled to. Created a new system of governance and adopted a written constitution. In short make it easier to clear the sleaze and corruption from our system of government.
For the past 3 decades or so we have had strong government but bloody poor democracy.
My only hope is that Scotland wins independence and shows the people of England that there is life after death.
Time for a change in the system of governance, not just the usual change of party.
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#138 pattymkirkwood
Best post on this thread. Let (s)he who is without sin cast the first stone.
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#146 Roll_On_2010
Thanks for the dewdrop.
"For the past 3 decades or so we have had strong government but bloody poor democracy."
Precisely so.
"My only hope is that Scotland wins independence and shows the people of England that there is life after death."
You're probably right. Certainly our forays onto the NR threads seem to be regarded as an intrusion into the private English grief over whether a Cameronian Tweedledum is likely to be less awful than Brown's Tweedledee. A pro-independence vote would at least get their attention for a while.
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Voters back SNP over failed budget
"They rated the first minister’s performance higher than that of any of the other party leaders, giving him an approval rating of +11, compared with -17 for Iain Gray, -19 for Tavish Scott and -25 for Patrick Harvie."
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#149 cynicalHighlander
Many thanks for the link. Some interesting numbers there, although unusually for the times they haven't linked to the full details, which won't be posted on the YouGov website for a day or two.
When the article itself says the exact opposite, it's also interesting that beside the article they splash Jenny Hjul's: "Scotland's parliament has been made a laughing stock. Alex Salmond can ill afford mistakes of this magnitude."
Again, some credit is due to Brian for not having leapt on that particular bandwagon.
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#143 handclapping
"#141 eyes-right
We had to and don't be cheeky young lady!
8-)"
Ah, handclapping, always an answer!
("eyes-right" - I like it!)
See Anglophone!!
Handclapping sends me an answer!!
;-) ;-)
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/tayside_and_central/7860001.stm
They only wanted "British jobs for British workers", Mr Broon.
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Brown lays the ground for recession rage
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From The Times article (Link kindly provided by cynicalHighlander):
"Last week senior Labour figures held secret talks with Green party counterparts to sound them out about supporting a fresh bid by Gray to become first minister."
Am I the only person bewildered by the Scottish media's ambivalence to the 'coup' attempt by Iain Gray and Labour? Who were the secret Labour figures? Were they from outside Holyrood, were they working under the supervision and at the behest of London?
Can anyone think of another democratic Western country where an attempt by the opposition to engineer the collapse of the current government would be completely ignored?
I am of the opinion that the UK establishment has created an environment that renders the Scottish electorate probably the most ignorant and uninformed (verging on misinformed) of the entire Western world.
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This situation, "British jobs for British workers." is a complete disaster for the European Union.
The free movement between states will hold back country's chance of quick recovery from recession, I believe...
The chances are that of the millions unemployed accross the European Union, we will see migration rise as thousands will no doubt do what they can to get employment.
The first country out of recession, and back onto positive growth may struggle if I am correct with suspecting many of the people of the EU will take the trips to try and get what new jobs will be on offer.
Where's Oldnat? I would appreciate their theory as I am well aware they fully support the EU or at least the basic idea of what the EU is suppose to be.
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#154.
I do not believe that Iain Gray could overthrow the Alex Salmond and the Scottish National Party at Holyrood.
1. I suspect Salmond would call an election beforehand. Polls have suggested the public are more keen on an election rather then MSP's deciding their next First Minister. Salmond could then claim to be putting the peoples interests first, while knowing that, according to many polls the SNP would return with more seats.
2. The chances of Labour gaining enough support is little. The Conservative and the Scottish National Party have worked well since the last elections. The Conservatives would not want to return back to Lab-Lib Dem rule.
The Liberal Democrats would also face great risks. They want LIT, for example. How can they agree to a Labour coalition when their key policy is ignored? How could Labour accept LIT after the hype they have created with the SNP Government's plans for it?
One would have to bite the bullet, and the public are not stupid.
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#155 Thomas_Porter
Be thankful that you have joined the services as this is what the rest of Britain faces How Brown's stimulus will destroy jobs
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Of course, there's always Aye_Bright!
Slainte!
ed
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#156, Thomas_Porter wrote:
"I suspect Salmond would call an election"
The First Minister does not have that prerogative. An election would take place iff, during a 28-day 'hiatus' following his losing the confidence of Parliament (not just a vote to that effect), no other administration could be formed.
Even at Westminster, the power of the lead Minister is often overstated: when the Prime Minister asks the sovereign to dissolve parliament, she would be entirely justified in offering another MP (esp. where a Deputy Prime Minister is in place) the opportunity to seek to form a Government.
Of course, being the leader of the party comprising (usually) a majority of MPs, party discipline would ordinarily mean that no other MP could garner sufficient support to take over.
At Holyrood, if the SNP administration was to be effectively ousted, I strongly suspect that the telephones of Messrs Gray and Scott would be in constant use as they strove to cobble together a means of gaining power - after all, both Labour and LibDems must be looking at electoral losses when next we vote for our MSP representation.
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Brown says now that he meant skilling British workers to compete more effectively in the global marketplace. so why wasn't it "New skills for British workers" or "British skills for British workers" then? Fair point no? It wouldn't be anything to do with an attempt to bolster his position with cheap patriotism would it? Nothing to do with proving his "British" credentials to the English media would it? He was sincere in what he said wasn't he? Yes, thought so. Oh sorry! Don't want too sound smug or arrogant or too much of an extreme ethnic nationalist here...
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YouGov poll following the Budget performance shows SNP improving its position putting SNP 6 points ahead of Labour in both constituency and regional polls.
It also gives Alex Salmond a +11 rating to a -17 rating for Grey and a -25 rating for Tavish Scott.
On my reckoning the figures would give the SNP an increase of 4 or 5 seats , Labour would lose 2 or 3 and Tory and LibDem on their showing would lose 1 or 2 each. I don't think it is as simple as that as the Tories always perform above their poll figure and the LibDems I feel will be particularly vulnerable in the areas they hold which have mostly history of significant SNP support.
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#41 derek
Been licking my wounds but recovering now and so happy to see that once again the main opposition parties making an absolute hash of things as usual.
I also have a life which means I am not stuck in front of a computer all day pouring over political blogs.
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#158 Ed Iglehart
That would be Euphrasia?
Very apt! 8-)
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#162 Jake i think you would find our Derek works for the Dark side. He blogs to save his soul. Now what happened to that other chap .... Reluctant Expat.
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#94 rabbiehippo
"#90 hello folks .... aye_write ... does Derek nae realize your a country quine ... nae a guy !"
rabbie, hello (catching up),
Derek at once thinks I am having a relationship with Carrots, oldnat, Margaret Thatcher, my father and (secretly)...Derek! What sex he requires me to be for all that I'm not sure.
"I see its business as usuall wi the Scottish media playin unfair wi the SNP. What a pity. Och its a sair fecht for half a loaf ."
Aye, fairly it's a sair fecht. Nay muckle wunner the reed eens are hayin tae tack it in turns!
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Thou art' so jolly.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=I8OMGWVPfbI
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#126 derekbarker wrote
"aye-write I'm not asking the question of your father and oldnats relationship?"
Where...?? (They were separated at birth, and Dad was born in 1948 - he mentions a 'Roswell'?? ;-)
"I merely draw your attention to the dangers of nationalism, who would of thought that from a nation like Germany a corporal would have risen from that massive population to take the Germans into the Abyss."
Who would have thought from a Union like Britain non-nationalism would produce from the massive population, Brown to take the Britains into the Abyss.
"You have already mentioned splits in the snp, how many out there may just get overwhelmed by the notion of nationlism?"
Ooh, more and more by the day - that's the beauty of these blogs!
;-)
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#158 Ed Iglehart
"Of course, there's always Aye_Bright!"
#163 handclapping
"That would be Euphrasia?
Very apt! 8-)"
Well I never!
"Euphrasia (Eyebright) is a specific remedy used by sixteenth century herbalists to strengthen the eyes and improve the sight."
Chaps, you are clever! There are certainately some tired eyes whose sight needs to be strengthened on these blogs!
Hang on, wasn't that also the Rev I M Jolly's wife? Ah, no that was Ephesia. Phew!
:-P
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#161 sneckedagain
I think the Lib Dems might get close to being wiped out (hopefully!).
The Tories and the SNP should make gains.
I think that some Labour MSPs are now regretting Iain Gray becoming leader. The failure to support the budget was so obviously an attempt to decapitate the SNP leadership. It was pathetic and took no account of what might happen to the Scottish people Labour MSPs are supposed to represent.
Nor were the Lib Dems any better. And the Greens were typical of a right-wing political party that has a single agenda.
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#57,
A nice story. Of course, the SNP wouldn't rush anyone back from hospital, would they?.....
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/7205502.stm
I await your condemnation.
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Missing police (aye-write) stranger than fiction.
http://news.scotsman.com/scottishnationalparty/The-SNP-and-the-mystery.3497982.jp
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170 bingowings87
"lentil and tomato soup"!!!!
Has this woman no shame?
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#170 bingowings87
bingo,
Most people, even MSPs have two hands. I'm sure the lady will cope quite well on being discharged with only one good one.
As a mother of four young boys, I can do any number of tasks with one hand.
But maybe you are looking at it from a man's perspective?
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Schools apart.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/7644449.stm
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#171 re yon link
"Given that many people will have voted SNP because of their promise to recruit 1,000 police, the SNP must now urgently explain why they will not do this."
I think she would find the majority have voted SNP because they realized the other two big partys have been promising lots but delivering nothing for years ! Also she does not tell us how she would solve the problem...a typical Labour put down.
#165 Aye_Write ... I dinna read red tops ... nae even if Channelle has her a**e on the front cover !!!
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It's a cat! no it's oldnat?
http://www.geocaching.com/track/details.aspx?tracker=TBTGFC
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#174 Derek .... watch out the ferrets are coming ...
"Eighteen months in power and the SNP still haven't commissioned one new school building and they haven't put in place a new system of funding," she claimed.
"The truth is the SNP is a long way off matching Labour's schools programme brick for brick. Labour refurbished over 300 schools when we were in power and we would have built 100 more by 2009."
I wonder why eh .... maybe the SNP is not so keen on putting a lot more debt on the country as Labour seems keen to do in the name of looking super efficient. PPP/PFI is not the answer Derek . I wonder if the money from oil had been used to good purpose in Scotland and not London then this situation would not be happening .
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#171 derekbarker
"The SNP came to power in May promising to create 1,000 "new" police officers.
But yesterday, Mr MacAskill explained that these would not all be "new" officers. Instead, the 1,000 officers would be made up from 500 new recruits and 500 redeployed from other duties or brought out of retirement."
As I see it "new" or not "new", that is not the question.
Can they do their job whether they are labelled by the media as one or the other? Yes.
Is there a problem? No.
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#175 rabbiehippo
Who is this "Chanelle", and why should she have her apse (a semicircular recess covered with a hemispherical vault) on the front cover.
Is she an architect with an interesting structure to display?
Naive oldnat
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#171+#174
Derek "Think positive"
You are being very negative about the Scottish Government can you not find something positive to say and make us all smile
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
RE Police officers ... advert on radio yesterday in Aberdeen on behalf of Grampian police to recruit people to join the police force. I dont suppose you can press gang people into the police force so unless Labour have any good ideas they should shut it.
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#176 derekbarker
Thanks for the link! It's an interesting piece of art - just wish I could afford it!
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#179 Oldnat ... shes not an architect .. but she has built up quite a reputation ... geddit.
#176 Derek should we google derekbarker we find your a keen photographer .. or is that not you ? The other site i found was a porn site but shurlely there was shome mistake.
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#180 Jake-the-saltire
Even better, derek could find something positive to say about the UK Government's actions in Scotland.
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#184 rabbiehippo
"shurlely there was shome mistake."
LOL!!!
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#184 rabbiehippo
She sounds French. Nice to see the Auld Alliance seems to be still upstanding and vibrant.
Historical oldnat
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This is an interesting article in the Herald, on school build/closures.
There's a bit of politics in this, because Glasgow Council are under pressure from parents whose children attend half-empty schools, and want to shift the "blame".
Glasgow is absolutely right to rationalise the provision of school buildings as a result of changed demographics. Public money needs to be spent on children not buildings. The old Strathclyde Region had a policy that school kitchens were staffed on the basis of the area of the kitchen - not the number of meals being served.
We can all understand the concern that school cloures will remove a "community" resource, but frankly, there's a huge difference between different areas in a city, and rural communities who have access to a much more limited set of resources.
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On the subject of Labour's insistence on funding public projects like bridges and schools through PFI; has anyone been following the interesting (and under-reported) developments in Carlisle - not a million miles from Scotland - where one of Derek Barker's beloved new labour schools has imploded spectacularly even by "normal" standards; at least in part because of political pressure to open it 12 months early before there was a new building to house it.
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Given the performance of the parties in general, I do find it quite amusing that Donald McLetchie was (perhaps rightly) lambasted for stating that 'The Conservative Party were now the true party of devolution'.
Seemed like a bad joke at the time but, on recent evidence, it becomes increasingly apparent that they are the only one of the pro-Union parties in holyrood that actually 'gets it'.
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Have'nt caught that news Caledonian.
Check the weather in Carlisle because sure as yon stuff ,if its snowing they 'll blame it on the "unusual weather"!
Not that its winter or anything like that!
Global warming sure is chilly!
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145 Aye-Write
Sorry...I'm not ignoring you. It's just that I can't blog all the time and I have so much to do, twirling my dastardly English moustache at...well just about everything. There just aren't enough hours in the day when you're out there being the root of all problems in the world. Thank goodness for the snow I say...it makes casting out widows and orphans so much more rewarding.
To keep it topical I think that the failure of the Parish Council to agree a budget is really silly politics at a time when party politics should be on the backburner in the face of potentially very serious problems.
To give the thread some legs...why doesn't everybody talk about the effeminate Southerners expiring in a dusting of snow? It should give endless range to discuss the London biased media standing in Parliament square in their suspiciously new looking Berghaus jackets as the few wisps of snow collect on the ground. Sadly it's not actually snowing where I live, much to the children's disappointment, just very very cold.
Got to go...acts of wickedness and cultural insensitivity call!
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Given the constraints on public funding why on earth have we committed £12.5m to buying a not very exciting painting by a long dead Italian?
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Dorothy,
Those of us who've heard of the Younger Dryas are investing in longjohns....Cool!ed
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Ah. It would appear the mods are having a particularly long lunch break today. Either that or it's something to do with the wrong type of snow...
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#177 Rabbie
That is a truly ridiculous comeback. So, you are saying that Labour is looking "super efficient" ;-D
And, let me get this right, you are also saying that the SNP is not building/repairing our schools because it will create more debt in these difficult times!!
OMG why hasn't anyone else around the globe thought of that one....stop everything and let's all climb into a bunker until this blows over!!
Absolutely priceless lol :-D
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#192 Anglophone
Just like the damned English! Trying to claim that you are better than everyone else at cultural insensitivity! We Scots can be more insensitive than you any day.
Anyway it's snowing here in Ayrshire, and with the poverty and appalling life styles of men in this bit of it, we've a lot more widows and orphans to be thrown out into it than you too!
Dastardly oldnat
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#193. Wee-Scamp
"Given the constraints on public funding why on earth have we committed ?12.5m to buying a not very exciting painting by a long dead Italian?"
Better than spending 75 billion on WMD, the billions on commercial banks, the billions on unnecessary wars, London olympics, undemocratic Westminster, Thames barrier and on and on and on.
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#173 aye-write,
I think my #170 has been misunderstood.... it was in response to the almost instinctive nature of some posters on here to paint anything & everything that Labour does as diabolical.
I was merely pointing out that the practice of bringing absent / convalescing MSPs back for key votes extends across all political parties. No sexism intended.
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#195 Fit_Like
Wrong type of snow, of course. everybody staying home means less mods and more peeps on the internet ergo more posts. Of course one cannot account for the fact that it snows in winter so we were unprepared, just like with the credit crunch. What a way to run a country. BTW the BBC is an arm of the UK government up here so you shouldn't be surprised.
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#194 Ed and Dorothy
This is indeed a legitimate concern.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2005/dec/01/science.climatechange
The article in the link is rather old, but the data and the theory are still valid. (In my line of work I used to be concerned with ADCPs, the instruments used to make these measurements, and so took more than a passing interest).
I'd be interested if anyone has come across any more recent data.
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#199 bingowings87
I know bingo, I forgot all the ";-) ;-)s"
It was meant to be a point made in jest. OK?
:-)
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#193 Wee-Scamp
Like the money spent on Homecoming, its a reason to visit and that's megabucks money for us over the years.
Its also something we can leave the children as recompense for them picking up the tab for GB's credit card spending frenzy.
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Roguish Richard,
First stop, Woods Hole ,
and then giggle...
here
and
here
and
here
It's a hot topic ;-)
ed
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#201 Richard_the_Rogue
http://www.climateprediction.net/board/viewforum.php?f=16&sid=cb22b5c5e332f1e2ae830c6fa027daf0
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201 Richard_the_Rogue
205 cH
A long way round but only way that these boards work.
3rd down - shrinking ice - click p no2 (white box) you'll find what your looking for.
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#192 Anglophone
Anglophone,
(philosophical - don't laugh... ;-)
That's an excellent reply. An apology is in order. Sulking at (age) 34, eh? Not good!
Glad that you are superdoopery.
:-)
I agree with you on the budget you will be amazed to hear (Lib and Lab thought Greens and SNP pals so could have safe strop - vote against, still passed. Yolk on them, egg on their face...)
Not orbiting planet 'aye' and executing great evil instead is a safer choice (the trajectory of the former being typically erratic), even though some would say you've counteracted your motives with your reply - but I won't tell ;-)
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#204, 205
Thanks guys!
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