The Speaker speaks
There was evident and widespread sympathy for Michael Martin in the Commons when he outlined his role, a minimal one, in the police raid on the offices of the Tory MP Damian Green.
Speaker Martin, the MP for Glasgow North East, noted in a faintly barbed aside that he had held his tongue until he had an opportunity to inform the reconvened House regarding the affair.
He had not, like others, had the "luxury" of going on television to offer his views.
As to substance, he said that, in future, a warrant would always be required for searches in the Commons: the police did not have one on this occasion, relying solely upon a written consent from the Serjeant-at-Arms.
Mr Martin signalled there would be a full debate in the Commons on Monday.
And he is setting up a committee of seven senior Parliamentarians to investigate the matter.
Not sure, though, that he entirely cleared up the issue.
He said he was alerted to a possible arrest - but was not explicitly asked for his consent.
MPs are unable, under procedure, to question the Speaker.
So nobody could ask him whether he had insisted upon being consulted, whether he felt he had been let down by the Serjeant and/or the police.
For me, Sir Menzies Campbell got rather swiftly to the nub of the matter.
While others noted, rightly, that MPs are not above the law, Sir Ming noted that this proviso must include the police too.
I'm 
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~35~RS~)
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"It wisnae me" arguement forwarded by Michael Martin doesn't wash.
Michael Martin should have took control of this matter, he didn't, and is now blaming others, notably a member of his own staff that he himself had hand-picked himself just a year ago.
As for "evident and widespread sympathy for Michael Martin in the Commons", what a load of tosh Brian.
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Micheal Martin .staggers from one disaster to another(air miles,shopping taxis for the good lady and of course no Inq into Blairs chums to name a few) and should have resigned months ago as for Auld Faither Time QC, well as part of the political establishment and a lawyer he would say that wouldnt he !!!
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Brian
I've no idea what the procedures are under Scots Law, but the English police actions over Green don't seem to require a warrant, once someone has been arrested. see this from the Times.
I thought that was why they arrested Green in the first place.
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After this statement, surely the Serjeant at Arms is toast. It is irrelevant that she was not told she did not have to sign the waiver. Just because her position includes wearing fancy clothes does not make that job any less real. She has a duty to know what she can and cannot do. If she is unsure, she should seek advice.
It was, in the circumstances, a good performance from the Speaker. He has bought himself some time by setting up a committee. However, he knew on Wednesday evening that there might be an arrest. He knew who the target was by Thursday morning. Surely that is ample time to seek advice? His efforts today to correct things for the future do nothing to alter the past. He was found wanting in a very big way. Once his committee is under way, he should do the decent thing and resign.
For those who missed my post on NR's blog (currently sitting in mod purgatory) it is perhaps worth mentioning again the raid on Rep William Jefferson's congressional office here in the USA and Speaker Hastert's response.
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If I doubted aunty's diehard unionism before this afternoon, I don't now. When checking timings of the HoC debates today, I stumbled on this website's Profile: Michael Martin with the timestamp 10:24 GMT, Wednesday, 3 December 2008.
Noting the sentence "To help this process, none of the other main parties stand at general elections against whichever MP is Speaker." I used the BBC News website feedback link to report the inaccuracy, since the SNP opposed him in 2005, coming 2nd, and the fact that the SNP might be considered "main" when they form the Scottish Government. As a naif, I thought they might simply add "except the SNP".
Of course, the sentence now reads (no change of timestamp): "To help this process, none of the other main UK-wide parties stand at general elections against whichever MP is Speaker."
I have also pointed out that the word "other" in the sentence implies that Martin sits as a Labour MP - as some aver - but that in fact he did not stand as a Labour candidate in 2005.
On the day after Calman seemingly considered that the existing polity of the UK is more important than his remit to "To review the provisions of the Scotland Act 1998 in the light of experience and to recommend any changes to the present constitutional arrangements that would enable the Scottish Parliament to serve the people of Scotland better" and when Brian reminds us of the way that UK legislation treats powers devolved to the Scottish Government as afterthoughts, it's nice to know where one stands.
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#1 minuend
I'd go along with that. Having watched it on BBC Parliament until just now, I think he did the absolute bare minimum to prevent non-NuLab MPs from presenting their no-confidence motion and walking out on him.
It did surprise me that they let him get away with delaying the debate until Monday and leaving it to the Harperson to draw up the motion - giving him and the government four full days to stitch up their joint approach. I also note that he's picking the seven investigators himself and hasn't not even recused himself from chairing the debate itself.
Even by the low standards of Westmidden it was an affront to democracy, but at least all but a very few NuLab acolytes made that quite clear to the few who will have watched.
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From the Timesonline (Beeb doesn't like link)
Speaker blames police and Serjeant-at-Arms for Commons raid on Damian Green
On page 2.
"He added: "At 7am on Thursday police called on the Serjeant-at-Arms and explained the background to the case and disclosed to her the identity of the Member.
"The Serjeant called me, told me the Member?s name and said that a search might take place of his offices in the House. I was not told that the police did not have a warrant," he added, to cries of surprise and a shout of "shame!"
Mr Martin went on: "I have been told that the police did not explain, as they are required to do, that the Serjeant was not obliged to consent or that a warrant could have been insisted on."
Since Martin pushed out the previous serjeant who was ex military as all the past ones had been and gave the post to a civil servant he has to carry the can.
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I haven't looked at the Scottish media sites yet, but the London Evening Standard already have a couple of post-statement articles. Their Martin has failed in his duty and is not fit to hold office says top QC quoting Geoffrey Robertson as saying: "I think it is an abject failure by a man who should now resign. The Speaker is trying to shift the blame when it is part of his job, it is his duty, to refuse the police approach as soon as he first heard about it."
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#5 Brownedov
I checked the Martin Profile (now timed at 18:09), and the offending section seems to have been deleted entirely.
Well done.
When I was young, I used to enjoy the Sunday Evening "Whitehall Farces" with Brian Rix (frequently sans trousers).
Calman has now created an enduring image in my head of him taking Rix's role in "No Change, Please. We're British" - rushing desperately between the Tory, Labour, and Lib-Dem bedrooms in an effort to find where he left those trousers.
:-)
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Further to my #5
Somebody, somewhere must listen.
The BBC page I link to in #5 now has a timestamp of 18:09 GMT, Wednesday, 3 December 2008 and the offending sentence has been deleted in its entirety.
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Mick's statement raises more questions than answers, and it's hard to believe that a senior civil servant would instigate an investigation in his own department, knowing that it would involve a prominent MP with all the possible repercussions on his position, without referring the matter to his minister initially, in this case J. Smith. Her statement tomorrow will be even more interesting, though she's now had time to get her act together and practice her excuses. The acting head of the Met. also got his day in the limelight, though why an unelected civil servant was accorded that privilege is anybody's guess. Running blocker for the minister perhaps ?
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#7 cynicalHighlander
Try Speaker blames police and Serjeant-at-Arms for Commons raid on Damian Green
The Thunderer does sometimes change URL, but if you're not sure on links see my #84 on the New ways into blogs thread and my #75 on the same thread containing more about HTML.
I only spotted yesterday that if you post a "raw" link, make sure there's a space after it. There were two at the end of a sentence which didn't work because the full stop got inclded in the link by the parser.
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Scottish Labour Party broadcast "on the Queen's Speech" was simply an attack on the SNP.
A perfect example of what #13 darwinsmonkey was talking about on the "Gracious Speech" thread.
How did this add anything to "constructive dialogue and exchange of ideas"?
Parties have become an obstacle to, not a vehicle for political debate.
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A good article and separate audio from Nicholas Watt on the Grauniad's main Politics page. For once, they're not taking the NuLab line, finishing with "Old lags are saying that the affair shows the danger of the home secretary abrogating responsibility for the police; a beady eye should keep an eye on them."
Not quite as firm as the Standard line, but positively vitriolic in Grauniadese.
Aunty still seems to have no analysis on it.
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#9 oldnat
LOL and thanks. The Calman image is infectious.
I'm feeling quite smug at this wee victory, so will have to watch my tongue.
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Still no analysis I can find on the BBC site, but at least the new Nick Robinson thread recognises that there are questions to ask with:
"It is now clear that the police have some very serious questions to answer about the way they behaved. So too the Speaker and his officials. So too ministers who were involved in launching the inquiry."
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#13 Oldnat ..
I agree. I could hardly believe my ears..
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I have little regard for Michael Martin and less for his party. The saving grace seems to be that a working class Scot has made it to the Speaker's Chair.
This has led to some thinly disguised, if not blatant, nastiness among (mainly English Tory) MPs, suggesting that such "an uneducated thicko" (their description) should keep an Etonian out of his rightful job.
On these grounds only, I find it a little bit sickening that so many Scots should add their tuppenceworth to the hate campaign. Especially bearing in mind that few of them have any regard for the Commons, its members, procedures and traditions. In short they want to be well shot of it.
Of course Martin is a useful vehicle through which to mount an attack on his party, the BBC and anyone else perceived to be an impediment to separation.
Many posters here seem to be aligning themselves with the London Evening Standard, The Daily Mail and The Sun (English editions only, of course) who portray us as workshy subsidy junkies living off Home Counties' largesse.
Surely true Scots could not support such defamation in any circumstances, not even if they were twisted enough to think English antipathy hastens Independence?
Now that would be a real scandal, wouldn't it?
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#12. Brownedov
Thanks take your pick of a Christmas card
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Paxo will be interviewing the Harperson on London Newnight tonight and will be asking "can the Speaker survive, and the House of Commons ever have the same relationship with the police again". Should be worth a look.
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#18 brigadierjohn
"The saving grace seems to be that a working class Scot has made it to the Speaker's Chair."
There were just a few similar jibes at Welsh Speaker Thomas at first, but they soon disappeared when it became obvious that he was an impartial Speaker. Martin has been a bit less awful of late, but not fit the clean the boots of Thomas.
"Many posters here seem to be aligning themselves with the London Evening Standard, The Daily Mail and The Sun (English editions only, of course) who portray us as workshy subsidy junkies living off Home Counties' largesse."
I'd argue that the Evening Standard is not in the same league of awfulness as the Mail or Sun, although that's not saying much. They do cover breaking news during the afternoon, though, which is why I linked to them. As you've told us you're an ex-hack, I'd have thought you'd be aware as anyone that one looks for information where it's available.
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#19 cynicalHighlander
Thanks - I daren't pick a favourite for fear of offending the Brig.
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Irrelevant, to this side of the border, I would think.
Only the tories could have a full-time mole
being payed by the state and say that its in the interest of the whole nation.
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#21 Brownedov
Don't be too hard on the brig. Remember he's a long-retired journo who "doesn't do links", so wouldn't use sites like Politics Home, and is probably reliant on the papers and the TV.
He will have seen that the Herald has just sacked 240 journalists, and has told them to reapply for the 200 posts they are going to fill (at lower wages no doubt), so the Herald is going to see the same journalistic collapse that the Scotsman has suffered - Johnstone Press shares down to 7p.
His world has gone, so we should excuse his (rather nationalist) suggestion that we should support Martin just because he's a Scot and the English Tories have been predictably nasty to him.
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come on Mr Speaker where exactly does the buck stop at westminster?
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#21 Brownedov: I spent some time on holiday with George Thomas's long-retired private secretary and his wonderful wife. He spoke very highly of his man, but hinted at many a slip "behind the chair." However, I really feel it's the Glasgow accent, as opposed to a Welsh lilt, that upsets the snobs.
I was never a hack, just a professional journalist, thank you. And professional enough to seek information where it was reliable. Anything readily available warrants suspicion and a lot of checking.
Whatever, it still saddens me that Scots can pick their allies and enemies - often to the detriment of fellow Scots - on the basis of political expediency. Further proof that so-called policies aren't working?
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#23 derekbarker
Agreed, but it's fun watching the stushie in the "Mother of Parliaments" - a single Mum, who's now being required to get a job, instead of living off benefit.
:-)
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#24 oldnat: The Herald thing is a tragedy, caused by awful management, just like Johnstones and Trinity Mirror. You're right, my day has gone. It's all about accountants now. At least I earned some respect in the heyday of the Scottish Press.
Your ability (last par) to twist my point equates with the worst in present-day journalism.
Anyway, I apologise for this interruption to the Brownedov-oldnat Show - are you the new Morecambe and Wise? - and normal service will be resumed, while I watch the professional comedians. G'night.
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18. brigadierjohn
I'm pro Scottish working class but also pro the right bod for the right job. The current speaker simply has no class/gravitas, call it what you will. He and his family simply appear to milk the system for what they can gain out of it. Eton simply doesn't enter into it for me.
David Steel and George Reid were two exapmles of how it could be done with non-Etonian class, albeit that Geordie could regularly be spotted round the back of Holyrood smoking himself senseless!
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#27
Oldnat, I will never move from my labour roots, however, I will never, never! accept the rule of another tory government implemented on to the great peoples of Scotland.
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#29 irnbru_addict
I'm less concerned with his lack of gravitas (I quite like some of his quirky put-downs of stroppy MPs) than with incompetence of the members of that "august" chamber.
The right of police to search without warrant is determined by the POLICE AND CRIMINAL EVIDENCE ACT 1984 (PACE) - Section 18 -
"Section 18 permits a constable to enter and search any premises occupied or controlled by a person who is under arrest for an arrestable offence if he has reasonable grounds for suspecting there is on the premises, other than items subject to legal privilege, that relates to that offence or some other arrestable offence connected with or similar to that offence."
Can anyone remind me as to which party passed that piece of legislation (without any "legal privilege" for MPs)?
It wouldn't have been the Tories would it?
Nah! they wouldn't have been so stupid!
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#24 oldnat wrote:
"His world has gone, so we should excuse his (rather nationalist) suggestion that we should support Martin just because he's a Scot and the English Tories have been predictably nasty to him."
Point taken, and I would agree if that was the main reason Martin isn't considered a good Speaker.
I'm so used as an expat to being called English that often it barely registers, although from the anglophones it's more usual to be called a Brit.
Puts me in mind of an anecdote I read in a biography of Ike. In '44 he sent a 1* home in disgrace for having called another SHAEF officer a British SOB and told Bedell Smith "it was for the adjective not the noun" - sounds a bit erudite for Ike but believable.
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#30 derekbarker
Mrs Nat would probably do something very, very nasty to you if you were to "move from [your] labour roots"!
I don't know how she votes (might be SSP, SNP, Green, or Labour - all of which have strands of her core beliefs - and marital harmony is much more important than discussing how we vote!), but she has said that it's been much more difficult to vote Labour since that party has abandoned her.
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oldnat
I agree with the sentiment that hte political parties appear to be a barrier to good debate.
I make this point frequently but the standard of debate is tedious, we are at an important political crossroads but neither labour or the SNp seem able to get past the "4 legs good two legs bad " standard of debate.
But when you read some of the contributions on this site you begin to understand. Many of the people here would jump off a cliff if Alec said it was a good idea. So I suppose that the people get the politicians they deserve.
I blame teachers myself, they don't encourage the questioning of authority at school!
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#26 brigadierjohn
"However, I really feel it's the Glasgow accent, as opposed to a Welsh lilt, that upsets the snobs."
You could well be right.
"And professional enough to seek information where it was reliable. Anything readily available warrants suspicion and a lot of checking."
Good for you - certainly more than we see from some on this website - Brian honourably excepted, of course.
"Whatever, it still saddens me that Scots can pick their allies and enemies - often to the detriment of fellow Scots - on the basis of political expediency."
There we're on opposite sides. I would argue that one should pick ones allies on the basis of shared principles rather than nationality.
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#34 northhighlander
If you had been in one of my classes, I'd have taught you to question more thoroughly, and taught you how to detect bias in others and yourself!
In your 2nd paragraph, you limit your criticism to two parties.
In your 3rd paragraph, you limit your criticism to one party.
The "Null Hypothesis" is that they're all as bad as each other! You need to demonstrate that the passionate supporters of any party are worse than the others for your observations to hold true.
Need I remind you of the Tories on "the BBC blog that must not be named"?
For the Lib-Dems, Anaxim isn't a model of unbiased thinking (though better than many).
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Lot's of talk about the EU and currency change recently, how would a currency exchange effect Scotland, what would it mean to people, business and standards of living, could Scotland adopt the single currency, without the rest of the UK?
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re 36
I limit my criticism to the main parties in Scotland, who really should try much much harder. If Alec and Iain started serious debate then the rest would have to follow. So I feel that it is right to songle out these two parties.
Nobody really pays any attention to the LibDems do they?
The tories in Scotland do try, just nobody wants to listen.
As regards my comment on The SNP i was refering to the more rabid posters on these pages, they are in the majority. However I agree entirely they are all as bad as each other.
Plague on all their houses.
Regarding the other blog, that clearly demonstrates the huge differences between Scotland and England.
Reading that blog would be a reason to vote for independance. Still would need som serious detail if someone would make the effort.
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For anyone who enjoys playing with language, The Croydonian has a thread which challenges people to produce a political lipogram (a piece of text which omits a particular letter).
I've added one which doesn't use the letter "S" - not easy for a Scottish statement!
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29. At 8:59pm on 03 Dec 2008, irnbru_addict wrote:
18. brigadierjohn
I'm pro Scottish working class but also pro the right bod for the right job. The current speaker simply has no class/gravitas, call it what you will. He and his family simply appear to milk the system for what they can gain out of it. Eton simply doesn't enter into it for me.
David Steel and George Reid were two exapmles of how it could be done with non-Etonian class, albeit that Geordie could regularly be spotted round the back of Holyrood smoking himself senseless!
--------------------
I agree with most of your comment apart from David Steel. He comes across rather snobbish at times.
The Speaker has made a few errors in his actions, especially the use of public money with regards to some legal matters.
I don't know enough about the selection, but is there any reason why the Speaker cannot be picked from one of the minor parties?
(And no I'm not hinting that he/she should be from the SNP!)
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31. oldnat
In terms of the Police raid, I think that, yes, the police had a legal right to do what they did. Somewhat beside the point.
The use of anti terrorist police, for a serious of minor infringements and infringements of a type readily used by all parties in opposition. It all smacks of hypocrisy.
Police should be allowed to police say labour. Don't think they were saying that when Tony Blairs bag girls and boys were arrested and questioned. Or more importantly, when the serious fraud office was investigating and bringing charges against various Saudi princes anent the bribery involved in a rather large arms contract.
Hypocrites (labour). Hypocrites (Tories).
It all reminds me of a pal of mine who railed against Labour corruption in Dindee city council. He was an SNP member. I asked him why he was so vociferous about it. His reply was that he wasn't getting any!
Oh, I could name him but it would be defamation, however, he was a prodigious drinker who once raced me and another pal naked down Broughty High Street!
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#37 derekbarker
I assume that you saw my post to northhighlander on the euro versus the pound.
There are ups and downs in any change.
I'm presuming that you don't have any loyalty to sterling simply because it was (not is) a reserve currency due to our Imperialist past.
A large Socialist country (China) can insulate its currency, to some extent, from the capitalist market, but even it has to accept the trading in its currency by the sovereign funds of the Middle East, Norway etc.
For everyone else, currency value depends on the underlying perception of the strength of the economy - hence sterling's dive, since all parties (including the SNP) were over reliant on the non-existent "froth" in the financial sector.
You need to look at Ireland's joining the eurozone. The UK was its largest trading partner before it joined, but the Irish economy still boomed (and it will still have greater GDP than the UK, after its current crisis). It would be much better for all of us, if the English were less europhobic and we were all in the eurozone.
As I've often posted, my preference for the medium term would be a Confederal UK in the eurozone. I have no time for the English Tory adherence to a non-existent Imperial past, and (as a Labour Party member in 1997) I'm embarassed by the way that Labour in Scotland have tended to slavishly follow the "Middle England" agenda.
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I read your S' lipogram, indeed punctual and precise. A good read.
As a realist, how would the single currency help shape the future of Scotland, I guess most people would want to know if they would be better off.
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#41 irnbru_addict
Wonderful story!
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"At open doors Dogs come in." (Pappity Stampoy, A Collection of Scottish Proverbs, 1663)
This is a tale of doors that were questionably opened. On the one hand a door in the Home Office was opened for an opposition front-bench spokesman, improperly and allegedly unlawfully. On the other hand a door in the Palace of Westminster was opened inadvisedly by the Sergeant-at-Arms under the authority of the Speaker of the House of Commons.
So we have a balance of impropriety, hingeing upon a couple of doors swinging open that should have been kept shut. Swingeing retribution is called for. Throw both of the guilty parties to the dogs, who are clamouring for their blood in any case? Or round up the dogs and show them the door? Or would that be barking up the wrong tree?
What a pantomime. Well, it is the season for it. There is nothing like a good old English pantomine to warm the cockles of one's heart. They should have these constitutional befuddlements more often.
Seriously, though, they need to be taken seriously. So what is one to make of them? They stem from a dichotomy, actually. A what, doctor? Say that again. A dichotomy, my dear. You cannot possibly hope to understand anything about the English constitution, or indeed about the English, without reckoning with dichotomy. On the one hand there is the law and on the other hand there is convention. The English constitution, in so far as it may be said to exist as a discrete entity, consists of both law and convention.
This is where it begins to get a little complicated. So concentrate if you will. This second element, convention, may in some cases turn out to consist in practices which upon examination turn out to be actually contrary to the first element, the law. An example of this would be inducing civil servants to contravene the Official Secrets Act, to which they are signatories and by which they are bound not to reveal information which is classified, even at the lowest level of classification and even if the civil servant takes it upon himself to deem it to be in the public interest to do so. All of this is illegal but is by convention a practice much indulged in to the benefit of opposition politicians. Or so one is given to understand.
All fine and well provided that all the players agree to abide by the convention and do not suddenly depart from it. Otherwise all hell breaks loose and befuddlement follows. Fingers are pointed. Voices are raised. The Speaker speaks . . . and we are not very much the wiser. So befuddlement continues . . . until we all get tired of it and move on to something else . . . but not racing naked down Broughty High Street, please. It's far too cold.
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#38 northhighlander
Fair point, that you are addressing only the two main parties in Scotland. It's also difficult to see anyone "jumping off a cliff" for Iain Gray!
However, I've been clear about which areas of Government I would like to see being exercised by the Scottish, UK, and European Governments.
I think it's about time for you to reciprocate by suggesting how you want to allocate the various areas of Government to the possible levels.
Criticism is easy, but it's a lot more difficult to suggest positive solutions.
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Just about the only 'luxury' speaker martin doesn't appropriate for himself it seems!
The man is incompetent, and completely biased in favour of anyone speaking from the Labour benches. No doubt this comment will get blocked, but even so the man is a threat to the proper working of the parliament and has been since his (equally partisan) appointment.
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#42
I dont think anybody should be beyond a new way, I believe the Calman report did leave open the question of Scotland and its currency.
I've no wish either to be a subject of the tory elitist in the south, I'm sure there will be many, very many underlying question about the single currency.
I would like a full debate in the Scottish parliament on such a matter, I would suggest at least two full day motions on the subject, I think it's time the people of Scotland got a better informed grasp of the single currency and the future of Scotland within the EU.
At this time I would say I'm neither for or against, I simply dont know how the cards would fall if Scotland had the EU single currency.
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#43 derekbarker
You do ask difficult questions!
I'm no economist, but given how wrong they all were in relying on rampant capitalism in the financial sector, that may be an advantage!
"I guess most people would want to know if they would be better off, or worse off."
I doubt if it would be very noticeable in most people's daily lives.
Imports from, and exports to Europe would be at a constant price.
The UK lost jobs (other than financial sector) to Europe while the pound was overvalued. Theoretically, it might get some back while the pound is so low, but since no firms have the money to transfer location during the current recession, that's unlikely to happen.
Housing costs (rental and purchase) should be more stable, since the eurozone is not based (as the pound was) significantly on an inflated housing market (more in SE England than here, though we were also infected by people remortgaging their houses to buy cars etc).
However, I think the most likely reason why the euro would be better for us, is that the Eurozone has better regulated its financial sector. The UK has followed the US free market economy too easily, and been trapped in its corruption.
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46
Oldnat, If we could have a serious debate
at the Scottish parliament on the EU and single currency.
I think that labour and the snp should find common ground, (if all is well!)
If (to many ifs Eh) it is in the long term a better option for Scotland to join the single currency, I think the snp should drop their Independent stance and form a coalition with the labour party, the new government would put its proposed single currency will! to westminster and seek to negotiate Scotlands entry to the EU and single currency.
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#50 derekbarker
I'd love to see what you propose.
The practical difficulties seem to me to be
1. Both the SNP and Labour in Scotland, are likely to be intransigent, since both are dominated by people who want power. I don't doubt that both parties believe that "they" would be the best people to be in control, but their silly antagonism does none of us any good.
2. I can't see any significant shift from Labour, until the Labour Party in Scotland "cuts loose" from the UK Labour Party into a different organisation (no problem with them supporting the Labour Party in Westminster), but they need to have an agenda which prioritises traditional Labour values in Scotland as opposed to Tory "Middle England"
3. I would hope that the SNP would be willing to accommodate such a shift in Labour, in the same way that the Catalan parties from the Left, Right and Centre co-operate on Catalan issues, while disagreeing on how Catalonia should be run (they're all pro-Euro!)
Hopefully, a strong pro-euro stance from Scotland would encourage our English friends to come along with us (though some Brits would have to leave their Imperial pretensions behind them!)
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Michael Martin's excuse, "It wisnae me, it was the Sergeant at Arms", frankly don't cut no mustard.
Same excuse forwarded by regional labour's Scottish leader Ms Alexander, over dodgy party funding, "It wisnae me, it was my adviser, he told me it was ok".
Same excuse forwarded by labour's Home Secretary, over arrest of Mr Green, "It wisnae me, it was the Polis, I did not want to get involved".
Same excuse forwarded by uk labour's Bungler Broon, over the credit crash, "It wisnae me, it was America, others did not see it coming".
I could go on, but the common theme emerging is that when labour mess up, they do not take responsibility and try to blame someone else.
Not a back bone between them.
A McG
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The way Martin fumbled about and awkwardly blameshifted was quite embarrassing to watch. He was not just the person technically responsible for what happened, but ought to have had the presence of mind - even if he didn't know who had the power to do what - to have sought legal advice before allowing the raid.
Had Martin demanded a warrant, the magistrate (?) responsible for signing it would now be a very important focal point in the entire investigation into the matter, as all the information relevant to the decision to raid would now be sitting tidily in that person's hands. Such a clearcut analysis will not now be possible - simply because Martin did not demand a warrant.
Furthermore, his objectivity in handling Brown's later cross-examination in the Commons on the matter of which he himself was the subject could have been seriously compromised. When the Speaker himself becomes the centre of debate, who is left to ensure balance?
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18. brigadierjohn
I have little regard for Michael Martin and less for his party. The saving grace seems to be that a working class Scot has made it to the Speaker's Chair.
What are you suggesting, brigadierjohn? That Scottish working class people who are embarrassed by how Martin handled the affair should stay quiet, just because he's "wan ae us"? This is the kind of stereotypical 'small town' attitude that undermines our ability to speak objectively and coherently on any big stage.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#39 oldnat
Brilliant lipogram. A difficult job outwith picking North Britain in finding a way out
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34. northhighlander
"But when you read some of the contributions on this site you begin to understand. Many of the people here would jump off a cliff if Alec said it was a good idea. So I suppose that the people get the politicians they deserve."
My goodness you have a very single opinion that all people who vote SNP are following the Pied Piper.
I have voted for Scotlands independence for decades and the only way I can do that is vote for the only party that can offer that, this doesn't mean that I agree with all of their policies.
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49 oldnat
The only problem with your prognosis is that the official Labour party in Scotland is now becoming more and more disassociated with what is left of its membership and operating without any real mandate.
It is merely an administative arm of UK Labour operating to a London agenda.
There is absolutely no steadfast attraction to the "Union " in the ranks of on the ground Scottish Labour and no determined opposition to Scottish independence either.
This issue is steadily destroying Labour in Scotland as surely as the Irish question destroyed the Liberals in the early years of last century and as surely as it has sunk the Tories in Scotland in recent years.
The reality of politics is that accommodation is reached only when one idea prevails and opposition to that idea is demolished.
Political parties clinging onto positions that are no longer held by a significant section of their support are doomed.
At this point a loss of as little as 10% of the support of the Labour party in Scotland consigns them to the political dustbin.
If a straight choice independence referendum was held tomorrow I would be willing to bet that at least half of Labour supporters would vote yes. That is why there is opposition to a referendum - Labour knows the score here.
As does the SNP.
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The LibDems are the unwitting next obstacle to straightforward and orderly progress to normal independence. Most of their support would probably vote yes in a two question referendum also but they are being led into a "federal" dead end at the moment
Federalism is the new buzz word. It is of course the latest attempt to put a hurdle in front of normal independence and we could argue about the different degrees of responsibility in a federal union for the next twenty years - which of course is the object.
Federalism can't possibly work when one part is 10 times the size of all the other parts put together.
So unless you think we should accept Scotland with the same status as Dorset or Wiltshire, forget it.
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Alistair -(52) well spotted. when things go wrong as they inevitably do don't expect a labour politician to hang about and take the blame. it is always somebody else's fault . this comes with being able to do whatever they liked whenever they liked and never being held to account for the past 50 years in Scotland. a lot of them are still living in the past and don't understand that the rules have changed.
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I loved Michael Martin's explanation yesterday - I wasn't told that there wasn't a warrant. Talk about a double negative! How about asking if there was a warrant, in the first place? Very, very weak stuff however, I think the most pertinent comment came from Ming Campbell when he stated that the police aren't above the law either. Perhaps someone should remind them!
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Off topic, I know, but it is just not something that can be ignored
Currently headlining on Yahoo - Obama on Cameron: 'What a lightweight'
NuLab and GB in particular must be howling with laughter.
And if Dave gets to be next PM, the 'special relationship' may not be quite so special.
Isn't politics fun
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59. Graeme: "So unless you think we should accept Scotland with the same status as Dorset or Wiltshire, forget it."
You are reverting to fabrication and exaggeration again.....which means I have to post again.
Is there any proposal anywhere that suggests Dorset, Wiltshire or any English county would have the same political or constitutional status as us? Not even Yorkshire.
As things stand, we obviously have far greater constitutional status and autonomy than any other nation, region or county. England, that part "which is ten times the size of all other parts put together", is the only nation without its own legislature or executive.
Even London, with its own directly-elected government, far larger economy and far larger population, doesn't have anywhere near our status and autonomy.
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Just watched FMQ's and thought that Iain Gray was probably flogging a dead horse, the extension of the Scotrail franchise, he appeared to suggest that the extension was a surprise !!
Aside from the 'surprise' blip, his questions were par for the course as were the First Ministers answers. However Gray became a parody of 'Scottish Labour' when he, in his last question, bagan listing all of the smear campaigns Labour have conducted against the SNP.
Trump, Aviemore, Scottish Islamic Federation funding were all trumpetted as some sort of evidence of corruption at the heart of the SNP government. The SNP side of the chamber began laughing, as did I, at this ridiculous attempt at throwing old mud.
Rhona Brankin, in a question, suggested that Scottish education had suffered cuts at the hands of the SNP. Salmond destroyed her by pointing out that a recent report had concluded an average increase of 5.5% in education budgets across Scottish councils.
Despite this, Brankin continued with her 'cuts' line in her supplementary question, eliciting further ridicule from Salmond who pointed out the real cuts were being imposed by Westminster.
Important and interesting question though from the SNP benches where the questioner highlighted Glasgow councils decision to cut teacher numbers in spite of an increase in the education budget.
Salmond aimed his answer at the Labour benches by saying that he hoped that these cuts had not been instructed by Labour in an attempt at sabotaging teacher numbers.
Was this a warning to Labour that their little ruse is known about?
Good questions from Tavish Scott who based them around the HBOS takeover.
No mention from anyone of the Calman Commission - treating it with the contempt it deserves.
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No 63
So, you disagree with the status of regions of the UK compared to Scotland - so what.
What's your view on Calman saying that Full Fiscal Autonomy for Scotland is bad for the UK?
Do you agree that change should not happen if it weakens the UK even if it benefits Scotland?
Independence supporting posters have made their views known as have those supporting more powers.
What's your opinion?
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#59 sneckedagain
"Federalism can't possibly work when one part is 10 times the size of all the other parts put together."
It's true that a US-style legislature wouldn't work with a House of Reps based on population.
Something similar to the Swiss confederal model would work, providing the starting constitution gave high barriers to change, providing internal autonomy for the four nations.
The main advantage or disadvantage would probably lie in the Euro and the EU. England seems reluctant to move ahead on both and until it does there should certainly be some advantage in retaining a common currency throughout Great Britain.
OTOH if that switch of attitude in England looks likely to be delayed indefinitely a move to the Euro and independence within the EU might be the better option.
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I have argued in previous blogs that there is a deeply authoritarian instinct in New Labour.
I am very worried by the failure of government ministers to protect parliamentary privelidge. Spouting the mantra that MPs should not be above the law is a deliberate smoke screen. The point is that MPs must be, in certain vital respects, above the law in order to carry out their job of representing the public and holding those in authority to account. If this is eroded in any way then democracy is under threat. The elected representatives of the people must be free from harrassment and police interference.
Add to this ID cards, blanket retention of all DNA records, plans to set up state monitoring of all computer and email traffic, adding microphones to CCTV cameras, extended detention without charge, recent proposals to tag and track the movements of all vehicles for tax puposes etc. etc.
Of course its all to create a 'safer society' where the innocent have nothing to fear. Aye right !
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62. Even I agree with that. The Conservatives brought us Churchill and Thatcher, among others, for crying out loud. Heseltine and Clark, even Chris Patten, are also great leaders that never were.
You may not agree with certain policies but there's no doubting they are all strong leaders with solid unwavering ideologies, policies and a clear path (and no, Salmond is not even close to being comparable, his policies are just all over the place as he struggles to be all things to all men).
He needs to start acting more as a statesman and a Prime Minister, and less of trying to be 'one of the lads'.
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64. So in summary, the SNP were absolutely brilliant and intelligent while all the others were inept and amateurish?
Not at all transparent.
I assume when I watch the news tonight, reality will yet again tell a different story?
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northhighlander
btw I have responded to your post #126 in 'In the long term'
(Not desperatley waiting for a response!)
PS The 'As an-ex journo...', 'as an ex-teacher...' stuff on here has been very amusing. I think I'll be an ex-plosion...
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#63 - what a load of absolute tosh.
"England is the only nation without it's own legislature or executive" and what have the commons and the lords being doing for the past few century's?
we fully understand that despite all the labour spin, the real reason we were "given" back our parliament was a European directive.
hence the reason it cost so much. a pretty pathetic attempt at derailing it by UK Labour , hence Blair calling it no better than a parish council .
i am sure you will correct me (whether i am right or wrong ) but when were Dorset,wiltshire or even Yorkshire seen as nation states.
whether you like it or not Scotland is a nation and as such has more rights to political or constitutional status than any of the 3 county's listed above or in fact the 3 of them put together.
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“‘pon my soul, there’s a lady in the golf club bar..”
Or, in other words, how dare the constabulary enter that into the holiest of shrines – the white males of 50-year old plus club that is Westminster
But by far the overall impression is a whole bevy of outraged chaps – from all sides - pontificating about the sanctity of their own magisterial importance. It is all, quite frankly, pathetic.
I am sure that the police may have been cack-handed in how they dealt with Damian Green, I am also sure that Westminster administrators may be have dealt with this process in a, perhaps too straightforward, a way (would refusing police access not have been even more invidious?).
But the sputtering indignation of Members was more than anything, an insistence that they are, somehow above the law. Members of parliament are there as representatives of us, no more and no less ie its not about them (faint hope I know). The police too are meant to ensure that those who transgress the agreed laws are brought to account. Are we meant to concur that police shouldn’t have pursued this case – no matter where it took them?
It is all rather reminiscent of the Nixons remarks in the Frost interviews that ‘because it’s the President, it is therefore legal’ And what subsequently happened in that instance ie eventual impeachment, was evidence of a far healthier state of affairs than could ever happen here in our tradition and rule-bound, closeted little parliament.
And this from a 50+ year old white male….
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Until yesterday I was prepared to give Michael Martin the benefit of the doubt. To my shame I had never really paid much attention to him as Speaker other than to note that he was not much a of an orator.
I was also willing to believe that he had not been told that the police had been given entry to the building.
Yesterday's performance has changed my views entirely. What I saw was a beleaguered, incoherant imposter who is unfit for the job. And as to the Serjeant of Arms, don't get me started. Does this stupid woman not watch the Bill or any other cop show? Surely she knew that for the police to conduct a search of ANY property they need a warrant. NO, she floundered and blustered. "Oh the naughty policemen didn't tell me they needed a warrant", she wailed. Good God woman, wake up. Instead of flouncing about in your silly goonies do your damned overpaid job. Mick however should not have even thought of allowing the police in warrant or no warrant. He should have sought immediate advice from appropriate NON-government folk.
Martin and the Serjeant should have sent the polis on their way and immediately dragged the Commissioner of the Met to the House to demand and answer. If the police had still barged in then the House of Commons own police should have arrested them for Treason against the Queen's Majesty.
Here's what I think happened. The Sergeant, worried about her job and fearful of the wrath of Mr Speaker caved in to the demands of the Old Bill. Martin was told by his masters in Downing Street to let it go which he did. Can anyone actually imagine Betty Boothroyd or George Thomas going along with any of this? I think as of this moment the real Speaker is Alistair Campbell who is plainly furious at the thought of anyone in his office being a sneak even though all the guy/gal did was to tell and opposition spokeman that the Government lied to the nation and the house.
I believe it is unprecidented that a Speaker has been actually questioned in modern times at least by the House on a matter of his/her conduct. It was interesting also to see Brown and Cameron walk to the Upper Chamber yesterday. Brown babbled like a fish whilst Cameron patently ignored him, a look of disdain oozing out of his facial expression.
People, this country's Government or rather the present United Kingdom's Government is corrupt beyond redemption. New Labour is a total failure. Massive unemployment, a crashing economy and mendacity as the new currency.
However, back to the Speaker. Sorry Brian, I saw no evidence of, "widespread sympathy" for him. Rather all I saw were red-raging faces on all sides of the house at what they see as a disgusting situation. Mr Speaker should go and take Taxi-Tina with him. If I write to my MP I want my correspondence to remain confidential between him and me. I don't want it to be seized by the 'honest johns' at the Met at the first sign of descent from my elected representative.
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Nothing much new in the Scottish media today, but an excellent article bang on topic from Matthew Norman - hardly a diehard Tory - in the Indy's: A written constitution is the answer. He says his money is on Jacqui Smith carrying the can. I tend to agree though I would also put it about 50 / 50 whether Martin can survive.
On the topic of a constitution, it strikes me that irrespective of Calman and whether an individual supports the status quo, (con)federalism or independence, a written constitution to give us all a starting point from which to argue for and against change would be no bad thing.
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'Gorbals Mick' struggled to read presumably his own simple statement on the Greengate affair. How can an individual so badly equipped for public speaking become the speaker of the house?
Didaskaleinophobia seems to have been beaten?
Wansanshoo.
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65. greenockboy
Insect Bites!
Symptons/Remedy
Don't scratch as it just becomes more inflamed as it spreads the poison (pen)
Just ignore (might be uncomfotable for a short period) but it will disappear leaving no lasting damage.
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Re 46
Fair Point.
I feel that any reformed constitutional settlement has to address the fundamental problems that exist in our system of governance.
Ideally I would like to see a confederal or federal strructure. I think that things like Monetry policy, foreign policy and defence, border control, Legislation on H&S matters, planning for national infrastructure such as railways and trunk roads should be done on a UK wide basis. There is significant regional variance in England for them to benefit from greater control over their affairs if the case was made. This could be a lot easier if devolution in Scotland and Wales was seen to work well. I don't see the advantage over doing all of the above ourselves. It would be costly and probably achieve little
However Holyrood must have powers over raising revenue. But this must be done in a cost effective way. I am not sure how this would best be done, there are better placed people than me who can lead on the mechanisms. Bit this has to be a fundamental point. It will incentivice us to grow our economy.
Also the revised settlement must free local authorities to firstly be local and secondly to have the freedom to decide the way forward on local issues. This must include freedom to raise taxation the way that suits that community the best.
This would mean reorganising local government into smaller areas where that works best, Highland and Dumfries and Galloway are never going to provide local government.
Community councils should be strengthened and have more control over the shape of their community, particularly in areas of planning and community development.
The labour reforms of voting, putting PR into councils, is a disaster, breaking the link between the councillor and the people they represent. It is now just a gravy train for the less able party faithful or a training ground for Holyrood.
We must get back to the position of a councillor being achievable by someone in full time employment.
Also I feel that we need to change the way we undertake regional development within Scotland. It is based far too much in the central belt.
More government activity needs to be moved from Edinburgh to the outlying regions. SNH was a good move although widely criticised. More of this would change the shape and Culture of government.
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I find myself rather bemused by all the
" getting knickers in a twist" being displayed by some MP's re the Damian Green affair. For some time the Police have been getting above their station and a bit power mad .Turning up at Westminster to "chance their arm" should be no suprise to anyone .That's what they do .All the while that ordinary folk have had to put up with this power madness by the Police politicians have sat idly by in their little cocoons .Welcome to the Real World guys.
As for Mr Speaker Martin I thought that was a dreadful performance . Apart from a first class display of hanging someone out to dry " It wisnae me .It was her over there" ,surely someone from his part of the world knows that if Plod comes calling intent on searching your little home the first thing you say is " Have you got a warrant and if not then B Off and come back when you have."
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I suppose Michael Martin should
congratulated, a metal worker, no ordinary metal worker, in fact a sheet metal worker who went on to become a sheet speaker at the House Of Commons.
Wansanshoo.
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#67 makinghistory
"I have argued in previous blogs that there is a deeply authoritarian instinct in New Labour ... I am very worried by the failure of government ministers to protect parliamentary privelidge."
Spot on, a morality by-pass seems to be necessary to remain a NuLab minister.
Even Speaker Martin realised there was something to be regretted yet "Duff" Gordon gave his usual Edith Piaf impressions re how the UK government has handled this, regretting nothing, the Harperson is backtracking on her Sunday statements and Smith is still entirely in denial.
So long as the present constitutional arrangements of the UK survive, it's for that reason alone I would urge everyone in every plurality election to vote for whichever party has the best chance of beating them, certainly in Scotland & Wales. In England I can imagine the BNP or UKIP having the best chance of defeating them. I suppose I could manage to hold my nose and vote UKIP but NuLab might just get my vote if I thought only the BNP could defeat them - as may be the case in Stoke.
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From Conservativehome.com (hardly unbiased! but interesting)
"Bob Quick contradicts the Speaker
What a mess this is. The Speaker's astonishing statement yesterday, a masterclass in buck-passing, sought to blame both his own hand-picked Sargeant at Arms and the Police. The Sargeant had not known she was supposed to have a warrant, and the police violated their own code of conduct by not informing her she had the right to refuse.
Well, somebody has been telling porkies.
The Metropolitan Police have released a copy of their letter to the Home Secretary. In it, Commissioner Bob Quick flatly denies he did not tell Jill Pay she had the right to refuse. Furthermore, he says she even sought legal advice, and knew perfectly well she had the right to refuse.
Who is being economical with the actualite? Did Jill Pay misinform the Speaker, saying she was never told she could refuse? Did the Speaker "misspeak" to the House? Are the police lying about what they actually said to the Sergeant at Arms?"
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71. sidthesceptic: ""England is the only nation without it's own legislature or executive" and what have the commons and the lords being doing for the past few century's?"
That would the UK Parliament that manages affairs for the entire UK. Westminster is not an 'English Parliament' led by an English First Minister and only decides on English matters, is it. No, of course it isn't.
"we fully understand that despite all the labour spin, the real reason we were "given" back our parliament was a European directive. hence the reason it cost so much."
And which European directive would that be?
"hence Blair calling it no better than a parish council."
Any chance you can provide a direct quote and NOT someone else claiming he said that. I found a previous Brian Taylor blog where he berates you nats for even saying this when it's not true. So, can you quote?...
"i am sure you will correct me (whether i am right or wrong ) but when were Dorset,wiltshire or even Yorkshire seen as nation states. Whether you like it or not Scotland is a nation and as such has more rights to political or constitutional status than any of the 3 county's listed above or in fact the 3 of them put together."
This was my point, you balloon. Read my post and also #59 again.
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Samizdata has a funny posting on US answers to "Why did the chicken cross the road?"
As in
GEORGE W. BUSH: We don't really care why the chicken crossed the road. We just want to know if the chicken is on our side of the road, or not. The chicken is either against us, or for us. There is no middle ground here.
DICK CHENEY: Where's my gun?
COLIN POWELL: Now to the left of the screen, you can clearly see the satellite image of the chicken crossing the road.
BILL CLINTON: I did not cross the road with that chicken. What is your definition of chicken?
AL GORE: I invented the chicken.
To which we could add
ALEC SALMOND: Like the SNP, the chicken was leading its fellows to its destiny of freedom on the other side of the road.
JIM MURPHY: Without the UK, there would have been no road for the chicken to cross!
IAIN GRAY: What's a road?
Or even
BROWNEDOV: There are no meaningful polling data on chicken crossings in Scotland.
OLDNAT: I have frequently posted (at length) on chickens ......
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Back on topic, the Evening Standard again seem to have been doing their homework with their Yard broke Commons rules over search of MP's office tis afternoon.
It's mainly reporting the facts, including the new letter from Quick of the Met to the fragrant Jacqui S but they've also done some more legal homework and say: "John Silverman, professor of criminal justice at Bedfordshire University, insisted that the raid broke the law."
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re 77 - i agree with most of your points,but labour in Scotland were dragged kicking and screaming towards any change or reforms in voting for councils. labour may have been in power at the time but it wasn't their idea. the way it is at the moment, you are correct,is not the greatest. instead of having 1 councillor that i see once every 4 years i now have 4 . why do i need 3 from the same party?
has the service i receive from my councillors improved now there are 4 of them -not a chance.
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#74 Brownedov
A written constitution. Absolutely. Very sensible and rational. Unfortunately, the English are not renowned for rationality and appear to be as suspicious of written constitutions as they are of federalism and confederalism. Foreign muck, basically, from their perspective.
If the Scots want a written constitution, therefore, they will probably have to provide their own, as the Irish have done. Have you read theirs? It is online, of course, as a Scottish constitution could be, for anyone to consult at any time.
No muddle, no obfuscation. Everything set out plainly for all to see and understand. Very un-English.
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Re #68
Not sure where you are going with this.
All I did was post a quote from Yahoo that Obama called David Cameron a lightweight, no need to get all defensive and trot out the Tories greatest hits.
As for having a pop at Salmond, I didn't even mention Scotland or the SNP.
Chill out
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83. Reluctant_Expat: Have you got any proof whatsoever that the chicken even crossed the road?
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83. Swinney: By my calculations, the road is 3,927 miles wide which will mean it would take the chicken 24,529 years to cross it......um......carry the one......is the answer "It never managed to cross the road"?
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86. As everyone else seems to know, the UK already has a "written constitution", just like every other country in the world. If we didn't there would be no rules on elections, structure and powers of government and the ilk.
What the UK doesn't have is an entrenched 'codified constitution' where all parts are drawn together in one single document (ours is contained in separate statutes, conventions, precedents, royal prerogatives plus the odd custom and tradition) and is protected from change unless by a processes such as a referendum or approval by domestic assemblies (ours can usually be changed by simple vote of Parliament).
While easier to access and understand, one key drawback of codified constitutions is that they are inherently inflexible and resistant to change, in turn restricting governments from adapting to changing political/economic/social needs.
Isn't education fun.
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#83 oldnat
LOL - and sad but true re me
#88 Reluctant-Expat
Well said - you do have a sense of humour ...
#89 Reluctant-Expat
... or maybe not
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83. Wendy: The chicken crossed the road solely because I was carrying it at the time. I was wrongly advised that I was not required to register 'Transport of Poultry' and I apologise for not revealing this sooner.
GB: Has that chicken been taxed? Did it pay its road tax? Does it have any money in its pockets? Please can someone check?
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#86 frankly_francophone
"A written constitution. Absolutely. Very sensible and rational. Unfortunately, the English are not renowned for rationality and appear to be as suspicious of written constitutions as they are of federalism and confederalism. Foreign muck, basically, from their perspective."
Point taken, but as Kerry people say: If you want to get there, you shouldn't start from here. "Here" is effectively nothing, since most of Bagehot seems to have been trashed and in any event was never in any way binding on anyone.
Un unreformed Tory Westmidden is most unlikely to break with the habits of many lifetimes, but "Duff" Gordon could at least usefully codify the status quo as a legacy at the same time as pursuing his "scorched earch" policy toward his likely successor.
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83. And finally on this note, I think the last three on the website itself warrant posting:
ALBERT EINSTEIN: Did the chicken really cross the road, or did the road move beneath the chicken?
COLONEL SANDERS: Did I miss one?
SARAH PALIN: I'm not really qualified to answer that question [wink], but I can assure Joe six-pack [wink] and all the hockey moms [wink] out there that I know what really matters to them [wink]. Incidentally [wink], I can see a road from my house, so I must be qualified to cross it...
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Re #83
GB - we must ensure the ongoing ability of the chicken to cross the road and so we have decided to provide a bail-out of the motor industry to ensure the continued production of vehicles to transport the chicken across the road. I have suggested this to all the World leaders to ensure that chickens everywhere can cross the road. In this we lead the World
Cap'n Darling - What he said ...
Bloggger - That Chicken's full of s**t
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Re '83
Wee Eck - We would want to help the chicken in every way to achieve self-determination in road crossing, but it's a reserved matter. I believe we can progress the freedom of chickens by having a good long conversation with them. By the way, all the chickens are coming home to roost next year.
Tony Blair - it is a chicken of mass destruction able to cross the road in 45 minutes. We must ensure that we can protect ourselves from the evil that chickens can do
Ok, that's enough, time for my medicine ...
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#90 Reluctant-Expat
"As everyone else seems to know, the UK already has a "written constitution", just like every other country in the world."
"Everyone else" is rather sweeping, and includes Matthew Norman of the Indy as I point out in my #74.
Yes, there is "much" of it written down in various places but even much that has been written hasn't been tested for much more than a century including the sovereign's right to dissolve parliament. And of course by no means all of the provisions have even been tested in the local courts, let alone the European ones, so much of it may actually be invalid in practice.
The real reason it's not written down is that every government wants to change it to their own advantage. It also doesn't like to advertise the fact that under it, only the members of the majority party in the House of Commons have any actual "rights" at all.
A bill to impeach every "opposition" MP and drastically restricting the franchise could be carried tomorrow if "Duff" Gordon could command a majority for it. Of course, that might get the UK thrown out of the EU and so is unlikely, but lesser reductions in liberty happen every session.
"Isn't education fun."
Not while our children are educated insufficiently well to understand the polity of their own state, it isn't.
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reluctant -82 how many times do i need to tell you i am not a nat ? i am first to admit that i don't like the labour party ,i was unaware that automatically made me a nat.
a balloon - you can call me what you like i have been called worse than that by better than yourself cheers, sid
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Ok, one more.
83. Salmond: A "chicken"? Piff and tosh. That's a good solid example of Scottish Salmon and its great to have it in the White House.
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SPEAKER MARTIN: No one told me.
NICOLA STURGEON: Mum said to send this report to the Lord Advocate.
TAVISH SCOTT: I don't care. Vikings don't use roads.
ANNABEL GOLDIE: Stop this irritating nonsense, immediately!
Yes, Auntie.
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#77 northhighlander
Thanks for that. Sorry not to have replied (having too much fun with chickens!).
If I don't see you on this thread again, we can discuss on the next.
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So not many want to take on the issue of the EU and the single currency and the status quo entrenchment shall last forever.
Chicken soup! road-trucking hot!
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#97 Brownedov
My dear Brownedov, how gratifying it is for me that you have taken the trouble to spell out what one would have thought that it would have been unnecessary to spell out, namely what is meant when one refers for convenience to "a written constitution". I keep forgetting, I am afraid, that education in England is not what one might wish it to be.
A foundation law which secures the constitutional provisions upon which a state depends and presents them in a single document for scrutiny by its citizens is, of course, precisely what I took you to mean and what I meant. It did not for a moment cross my mind that anyone could be so obtuse as to fail to understand that.
I had forgotten about the creature from the black lagoon.
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#103 frankly_francophone
"I keep forgetting, I am afraid, that education in England is not what one might wish it to be."
To be fair, I fear that there are also gaps in the teaching of politics in the other two nations which share the island with England.
Time for Irish QT, so goodnight.
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#104 Brownedov
Point taken.
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Britain most certainly does not have a written constitution in any general understanding of that description.
We are ruled by a collection of legal precedents, much of it imprecise, capable of a variety of interpretations and susceptible to change as other legal judgements are taken.
It is usefully flexible but probably gives the government in power far too much opportunity for abuse and it looks to me that a proper written constitution is becoming more and more of a necessity.
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frankly_francophone and Brownedov,
It really would help, or at least lessen the inevitable failure, if you used the correct vocabulary even if your argument is haphazard, inconsistent and irrelevant.
Again...
All constitutions are quite obviously 'written'. To use this term as you two were is....well, lazy.
Not all constitutions are 'codified' or 'entrenched' (which I suspect is what you were trying to say).
Irish QT, you say? My Lord, you truly know how to make the most out of this gift called Life.
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#105 frankly_francophone
OK - we clearly have enough of a problem convincing RE as it is without introducing educational red herrings.
#106 sneckedagain
Spot on.
#107 Reluctant-Expat
You really are being silly over this. Given that the "constitutional arrangements" (Calman's words) of the UK rely at least in part on common law, which is not written, but developed on a case by case basis your contention is bound to fail.
If you wish to persist with your contention, please provide some evidence - a link to something that supports your statement, perhaps, rather than to over-large and meaningless images which do nothing to advance your case.
QT from N.Ireland was better than average last night, I thought, although UK oriented as usual. Don't you watch to see what the great British public think of your beloved government?
Off out now but will respond later if needed.
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Hi everybody...long time no see!
I take note of the Brigadier's earlier comments on some of the nasty sniping about Michael Martin's roots. I agree that it is a good thing that someone from humble origins can rise to such a post but this in itself does not excuse his rather too many foibles.
Let's see...firstly it is traditional that a speaker is appointed alternately from the major parties. Labour broke this long established understanding by appointing a second Labour Speaker.
Michael Martin has on more than one occasion failed to make the transition from backbench partisanship to the strict neutrality required in his role.
He has frustrated previous attempts to debate potential wrongdoings by the Labour Government.
He has been a little too free and easy with the expenses policy, particularly with regard to his wife. Sadly he is not alone here.
He has broken with the tradition of having an experienced ex-military Sergeant at Arms, having instead a former political activist and fearless committee warrior elevated to the role. Bit of the patronage tradition from Scottish politics here I suspect in rewarding party time-servers with plum posts.
When faced with a serious question of defending MPs parliamentary role, she proved supine and inexperienced while he appeared frankly pathetic and out of his depth. Given his previous record one has to wonder if he would have been quite so accomodating had the police wished to investigate a Labour minister?
Michael Martin is no good at his job and should resign for his mishandling of this affair. This has nothing to do with snobbish disdain for his origins...he's just no good. People are also forgetting that the role was previously held by the magnificant Betty Boothroyd who was a model of tough impartiality. She came from working class Lancashire stock!
I don't think that Betty would have rolled out the red carpet for Inspector Knacker in quite the same way?
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#109 Anglophone
"Bit of the patronage tradition from Scottish politics here I suspect in rewarding party time-servers with plum posts. "
Good point that I hadn't thought of before in that context.
Since the late 18th century, Scottish politics was based on delivering votes to the Government at Westminster, in return for extensive powers of patronage in running the Empire.
Given that the political elite - Labour - in the 20th century would have continued the behaviours of their predecessors, it's not surprising that they continued patronage as well.
Since the practice can only exist through having a single dominant elite, PR will hopefully remove it.
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Well! oldnat, it looks although there is no real will, in the nats to push the EU and single currency/
I see young Osborne is making some noise on the issue.
Press hard enough and you never know!
This is probably the best opportunity, for those who want a referendum on the EU and single currency, to voice there view!
That promised referendum still remains outstanding?
With a concerted effort, there might even be a window for a referendum in 2009?
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111. Bearing in mind that the other large economies of the eurozone have had 7%+ unemployment plus stagnating growth since inception 8 years ago, I see little attractive about the UK taking on the euro!
Our exchange rate may be dropping but, even now, it is only 15-20% below 'optimum rates' of $1.75 and 1.3 Euros. The recent $2+ and 1.5 Euro+ were causing horrific damage to our exports and trade balances and now this will hopefully help our exporters recover some ground (even with a global recession).
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#112
I simply point to the process of a referendum!
There are as you say numerous outstanding issue on the point, however, there will also be those who through in the pluses.
There simply want be another better time to debate the whole subject and seek that missing referendum.
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113. Understood but I think we all know the result of any referendum will be a resounding 'No' so what's the point?
I'd be interested in hearing what the pro's are....other than just 'their interest rates are lower' (which, as said, clearly hasn't helped much).
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#114
Yes! the debate would be very interesting.
I have to say! I'm not to sure about the out-come of any referendums.
There is and remain that missing referendum.
The window of opportunity is narrowing for the government.
Democracy is great and I'm sure any such debate would be very lively indeed.
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#113 derekbarker
Had we been given a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty, I would have voted "Yes". Although, I'm sure I would have been on the losing side in the UK, I still think there should have been a referendum, since democracy is more important.
Currently few parties want to address the euro issue, because they fear loss of support, more than gaining the support for their beliefs.
#112 Reluctant-Expat
I'm not advocating the UK joins the euro immediately (we don't meet the conditions anyway at the moment).
As I've pointed out before, there are ups and downs for the members in any common currency system.
Concentrating only on the advantages or disadvantages doesn't help to weigh them to reach a balanced decision.
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#116
Yes, oldnat the new very alike EU treaty,
however, there does remain the outstanding issues of the opt-outs and the single currency.
How would any such referendum be conducted, would the format include the PR
position, in as much as Scotland, Wales and N. Ireland, would have a separate result in any such referendum?
It's a debate and the process of democracy,
Its up the political parties to say what their intent Is.
As I have said, there seems to be an opportunity for such a debate, do we have it/or just ignore the chance.
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#117 derekbarker
"there seems to be an opportunity for such a debate, do we have it/or just ignore the chance."
I think the debate will continue on the blogs (Mark Mardell's BBC Euroblog) regularly returns to it), but most people prefer to take a simple view on complex issues (including you and me from time to time!)
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117. "As I have said, there seems to be an opportunity for such a debate, do we have it/or just ignore the chance."
I say we postpone any broad public debate and referendum until there is an overwhelming case for us to join the Euro.
We heard the other day from continental politicians that they would be very happy for the UK to join the Euro (we would add an instant 1.5 Trillion Euros to the combined economy for starters, as well as the major financial centre it currently lacks).....we just have to decide when it's good for us.
Our entire economy would have to parallel the continental one for several years (cycle, unemployment, inflation etc.), with the pound stable against the Euro for a similar time. Very importantly, the Euro has to be seen as a beneficial currency that will improve our economy....
...It's going to be a while yet!
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#119
I'm not promoting the single currency, although I'd like a debate and referendum on the issue.
I think the criteria of meeting the EU entry
conditions are at this time, diluted.
With Britains unemployment rate at 6.7% and the pound nearing parity with the Euro,
I believe that any such a debate and process would be very interesting.
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While there remains some who would have a positive input into adopting the single currency.
It's always good to look ahead! there might be a new government in 2010, if the tories win that election, they have a pledge in their manifesto, to have that referendum on the EU.
Now, if you trust the tories? with any such referendum, you may just be asking Britain
not only to reject the single currency but to
reject the entire EU treaty and membership?
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119 pt.2 - To highlight our current incompatibility with continental economies...
Latest unemployment figures:
UK 5.8%
Scotland 4.7%
Germany 7.1%
France 8%
Italy 6.8%
Ireland 7.8%
Eurozone 7.7%
EU-27 7.1%
And as it was announced today:
USA 6.7%
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Just read that Ireland's unemployment rate was only 4.9% in May.....ouch!
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derekbarker & Reluctant-Expat
An interesting article in the International Herald Tribune on how the financial crisis is forcing a number of countries to re-examine their attitudes to the euro.
It also sensibly analyses how much of the opposition is political rather than economic.
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#122
Did you include NOV's new rate of unemployment?
Although I dont think we will ever become
the next state of the USA, I accept your USA figs.
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Taking a pounding
"How much should we worry about a falling pound? Since Monday sterling is off 5 percent against the Euro, 6.5 percent against the dollar, 9 percent against the Yen and 3.4 percent against the Hungarian forint: Hungary, of course, had to be bailed out by the IMF. This is worrying for the government as its survival plan for the next five years involves borrowing untold billions from the Arabs, Chinese or whoever has cash – who may not relish the thought of pumping billions into IOU notes in our rapidly devaluing currency.
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#124
Good piece oldnat, very relevant!
Indeed Norway are thinking very seriously about the matter.
As I've said! there seems to be an opportunity to debate this subject, I certainly would endorese the debate to begin.
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#108 Brownedov
As the term "written constitution" is most certainly commonly used by anglophone writers on constitutional matters, some of them lawyers (one of them that I know of being a former Crown Agent) in connection with what you were referring to, I would have to agree with you that it cannot but be perversely silly for anyone to assert that you have not used the correct vocabulary.
It seems pretty much like attempting to reason with an ill-mannered child who is determined to disrupt a classroom, to return to the theme of education briefly, but, if you feel that there is any hope of persuading the individual in question of anything, the best of luck to you.
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#122 Reluctant-Expat
You seem to be comparing apples and pears again. The OctoberEurostat numbers for the EU countries are as you show, except that the UK is 2 months late reporting and shows 5.7% for August in the UK.
Where did the 5.8% come from and which month was it for?
Comparing apples with apples, the Eurostat for the USA in October is 6.5%.
I couldn't find current Scottish figures on Eurostat - do you have a URL for your source?
Eurostat attempts to harmonise the figures based on the recommended ILO definition. Given the complexity of the UK benefits system, I suspect that's not an entirely straightforward process for the UK, hence possibly the late reporting.
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In an-ever increasing world of economics,
the need for more intergration on banking issues are becoming more and more relevant.
The uniformed approached is in favour and the political safety net and insurance of the EU, is certainly something a number of states are now looking at.
Do we think Britain should ignore these times?
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#128 frankly_francophone
"It seems pretty much like attempting to reason with an ill-mannered child who is determined to disrupt a classroom, to return to the theme of education briefly, but, if you feel that there is any hope of persuading the individual in question of anything, the best of luck to you."
Sadly true. If I thought there was a cure I'd ask oldnat to help with a discourse on modern classroom discipline but I fear I'd be wasting my time.
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#83 oldnat
Brownedov: To be statistically valid the chicken would of course need to have been laid from a standard egg conforming to ISO .... and fed only according to EU farming directive .... zzzz
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#106 sneckedagain
"Britain most certainly does not have a written constitution in any general understanding of that description."
As you and others (Brownedov and frankly_francophone) have been indicating, the UK does indeed not have what British academics in the field are accustomed to referring to as a "written constitution", as the following university-recommended text, from Constitutional Law, Wade and Phillips, London (first published in 1931, followed by many further editions), attests:
"Written Constitutions
A documentary constitution will normally reflect theoretical beliefs. It is, therefore, not surprising that in our own country, where progress has been achieved less by adherence to philosophical concepts than by the process of trial and error, no written formulae have been embodied in a code of rules for government. Hence there is no constitutional document which can form the starting-point of a student's instruction in the constitutional law of the United Kingdom, and it is said that there exists no written constitution."
A sound and authoritative refutation of the above sound and authoritative statement, if one can be produced, would be most interesting. Bring it on, as someone once said.
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Like the vast majority of hoi polloi I don't care what my currency is as long as I have enough of it.
I don't notice any measurable affection for the pound in my community and as I have lived and done business overseas and close to a US base in UK I am well used to working in dual or even treble currency environment. It's easy and quite amazing how punters arithmetical skills prosper where hard currency is involved.
I believe the Scottish Governmenrt should take steps now to support a dual currency trading situation in Scotland in which sterling and the Euro were equally valid as currency.
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133 Simon_Pure
"A sound and authoritative refutation of the above sound and authoritative statement, if one can be produced, would be most interesting. Bring it on, as someone once said."
Well said.
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#134 sneckedagain
Not a bad idea. Euros are accepted quite routinely in Switzerland nowadays in a way that even the DM never was. In countries like Croatia and Serbia, the locals want Euros if at all possible instead of the "official" currency.
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Plan to stop ID card leaks is ... leaked"
"An 11-page confidential Home Office document – which was sent to a campaigner against ID cards – suggests that the employees’ homes could be entered without the need for a police warrant"
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With most of the papers and now 30 MPs according to this website wanting his head on a pike, the Sunday Times has just reported that: I will go on and on, says defiant Speaker, reporting a statement his spokeswoman made on Friday night that: "his position 'has not changed' since he issued an unequivocal declaration in 2007 that he would stand again".
Fun and games in the chamber tomorrow, methinks.
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By way of contrast with my #138, Scotland On Sunday has a particularly virulent diatribe from Gerald Warner in their Gorbals Mick must Pay the price for this disgrace.
Beginning with an attention grabbing "ORDURE! Ordure!", it goes on to remark: "Even senior ministers in the most corrupt Government in British history are distancing themselves. For Gorbals Mick the war is nearly over."
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Where have the police broken the law Brian? The police are doing their job, investigating an alleged breach of security.
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