Pick and mix not on the Bill
It's a feather in the breeze, open to influence from the subsequent political climate.
But as of today Local Income Tax just looks a little less likely in Scotland.
Did you clock Thursday night's vote at Holyrood?
Broadly, Parliament instructed Ministers to present a range of options for council revenue raising rather than simply the Local Income Tax favoured by the SNP.
I freely confess I am at a loss to understand precisely how that can be done within the terms of the motion.
That is because it talked of a Bill featuring such a range of proposals. In all honesty, you cannot have single transferable legislation.
You cannot prescribe the law by pick and mix.
However, I suppose the actual import is to confirm, once more, that there is not a Parliamentary majority for either the Council Tax or the alternative Local Income Tax.
The Greens are key to this - even though they are but two in the present Parliament. The SNP and LibDems favour sundry forms of LIT, although negotiation could bring them closer.
Labour and the Tories favour Council Tax, with varying reforms. In the middle, the Greens want Land Value Taxation.
By chance, I happened to be attending the Green Energy awards in Edinburgh last night and took the opportunity to chat to sundry folk of a Green Party persuasion who were in attendance.
To a person, they said they disliked Local Income Tax - and, if anything, had been confirmed in their view by the scrutiny which the current controversy has occasioned.
Doesn't tell us their party's final position, of course. Formally, they are seeking a compromise which might incorporate elements of their own policy.
Bit of a pointer, though, isn't it? Behind the scenes, of course, there is alternative political manoeuvring under way.
Privately, the SNP would rather like it if LIT were thwarted - if and only if they could then blame either Labour in the Scottish Parliament or Labour at Westminster for withholding council tax benefit should Scotland change tax systems.
Labour tacticians think that LIT won them votes in Glenrothes - and they believe they can make it more unpopular still by targeting aspirational families.
At that point, they believe, they would be seen as rescuing Scotland by blocking it at Holyrood.
Isn't politics wonderful?
I'm 
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~56~RS~)
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Meanwhile the hard working people who pay taxes are saddled with this iniquitous council tax which gives council executives (not elected councillors ) the ability to cover their incompetent spending at will by soaking the taxpayers. There may be no easy answer, but the deteriorating financial situation means that on a worst case scenario each person actually paying community charge will be one to one with someone who takes full advantage of the services and pays nothing. There has to be a better solution which makes everyone pay a responsible share of the burden. If this cannot be achieved on a local basis then it must be done by capping the spending and reducing the numbers of council employees to carry out their committment to education roads and enviromental services with everything else centrally funded.
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"Privately, the SNP would rather like it if LIT were thwarted"
That's your opinion but the fact is LIT would be a lot fairer than the current council tax and the SNP remain entirely committed to introducing it.
If they U-turn on this then you can claim (as you are) that the party is dishonest, but before then you have no cause to doubt them.
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"they [Labour] believe they can make it [LIT] more unpopular still by targeting aspirational families."
That's hilarious!
'Yes' to your question at the end:-)
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The Council Tax is based on the 'assessed' capital value of a property. It is not based on the owner/occupier's income.
The proposed LVT is based on the 'assessed' rental value of the land. It is not based on the owner/occupier's income.
Both forms of taxation can be manipulated by local and national governments to effect the market value of both property and land to the benefit of the authority and not the owner/occupier.
As such both the Council Tax and LVT are deemed by expert and lay person alike as regressive taxes.
Income Tax, based on the ability to pay, i.e. PAYE, is considered to a fair and progressive tax.
75% of Scots want the Council Tax to be replaced by a fairer tax system based on income.
If it is not LIT, then what is it?
As things stand Labour, the Tories and Greens can block LIT, but none of them have a tax solution that is both fair and progressive.
If Scots are left with some form of Council Tax as a consequence of this opposition then politics has failed in Scotland.
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Brian
The big problem for Labour and the Tories is that LIT is a fair and progressive tax.
What are the alternatives that Labour are putting forward? Do they think that defending an unpopular and unfair tax will be a vote winner? Every opinion poll so far has favored LIT.
The other outstanding issue with LIT is the totally bias media coverage. How many times have the media said a new extra tax on Scots? How many times have the media reported that this will replace an unfair tax and is not another tax?
How many of the organizations that are reported to oppose LIT consulted their members on LIT, or are we just getting the executives opinion?
Have the BBC asked these organizations what their members think, or are they just happy to report Labour spin.
Labour and the Tories oppose LIT, but as only the well off will pay more under LIT is anyone surprised that the two parties of millionaires are opposed?
Have the Greens any policies for this century?
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"The Greens want Land Value Taxation"...
And you seriously thought this sounded better than LIT? Dear oh dear..
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Brian
The other point in the LIT debate that should never be forgotten is just how terrified both Labour and the Tories are of it.
Just imagine a fair and progressive tax in Scotland, while at the same time in England OAPs are dragged to court for not paying the much loved council tax. Above inflation increases every year apart from the year before an election.
No wonder then that the millionaires alliance of Labour and Tories are trying every trick in the book to discredit LIT.
Mobilize the media boys, we need all the help we can get.
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"Privately, the SNP would rather like it if LIT were thwarted - if and only if they could then blame either Labour in the Scottish Parliament or Labour at Westminster for withholding council tax benefit should Scotland change tax systems."
Oh, so the SNP have told you this have they?
This is a line that has been pushed by Labour since the SNP won the 2007 election. Labour have tried everything to thwart LIT even going as far as blackmail by threatening to cut the block.
This guff about Glenrothes being lost due to LIT is astonishing. LIT was attacked daily by almost every news outlet in the run up to Glasgow East and the SNP won.
Glenrothes was down to scaremongering of the lowest order coupled with a total blackout of scrutiny of Labour Westminster policies. It should be added that the very people placed in a state of alarm by Labour's tactics are still in this state of alarm as the council policy so blatantly misrepresented remains in place.
Printing such propoganda is aimed at conflating LIT with defeat and to brainwash people into thinking it must be a bad thing because of Glenrothes.
I won't be surprised to find similar articles finding their way onto the mainstraem Scottish media pushing the same line.
"At that point, they believe, they would be seen as rescuing Scotland by blocking it at Holyrood."
More propaganda, by placing "they believe" in front of this ludicrous claim it gives you a get out. Labour have been trying to sabotage good governance at Holyrood since the SNP won, nothing has changed.
They have no alternative to LIT because they don't have the authority to create one, London is in charge. They will attack anything proposed by the SNP regardless of the benefits to Scots, especially low paid and pensioners.
Have you actually asked Labour why they oppose LIT?
"To a person, they (Greens) said they disliked Local Income Tax ..."
Did they? What did they say when you asked them their views on council tax?
Which was the lesser of two evils? Did you ask? If not why not?
Isn't Scottish journalism wonderfull?
It would be if we had any !!
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"Labour tacticians think that LIT won them votes in Glenrothes"
Dear oh dear, it seems Labour have been trying to con us for so long in telling us that they are listening to what we say and we apparently say whatever it is Labour would like us to say, that they've only gone and believed their own twisted web of lies.
Yes, an unfair and increasingly burdensome tax which takes little or no account of the ability to pay -- that's a sure vote winner. I cry a little inside every time I remember I used to vote for this gaggle!
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As in so many areas of proposed legislation, no-one would have chosen to be starting from here.
If it was permissible to abolish the Council Tax - say, as of 1 April 2010 or 2011 - WITHOUT having first put in place a substitute means of financing local government, that might serve to concentrate minds in seeking a replacement funding regime.
No one likes the idea of a new tax - even one that is so obviously much fairer (LIT) than the current position - and people like that with which they are familiar, but if all sides are convinced of the need for reform (and they seem so to be), then failing to reform would be seriously remiss.
If LIT was brought in, are Labour and the Tories seriously suggesting that gaining power would lead them to seek to return to the iniquitous Council Tax, even in an amended form?
Of the three areas for taxation - Income, Expenditure, Capital (inc. Property) - it is clearly fairer to concentrate on income, added to which there already exists an effective mechanism for collecting the revenue (although the channeling of the additional PAYE, etc., would have to be amended) with very low avoidance potential.
Is LIT the answer? No one knows, but let's give it a try...
If LIT soon becomes unworkable, the system can be changed again - but I would lay money on the fact that that change would not be to the current form of Council Tax!
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Nonsense, Brian
Nothing has changed.
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The most mouth watring prospect of LIT is that if Labour runs it's next election campaign opposed to an SNP committment to LIT Labour will be decimated (or a lot worse). A third of their vote out the window? A half?
Bring it on!
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What about a bit more radicalism?
Abolish Local Councils and then you don't need local tax rasing, just use existing taxation, be it VAT, income tax, corporation tax whatever.
Councils aren't particularly:
- democratic
- effcient
- value for money
They duplicate adminstration.
They don't operate to any decent economies of scale.
They mostly act as the ego train of middle aged masons with a penchant for metal chains.
Look at Glasgow, they've aleady ditched a lot of council services and look set to contract out more. Let's go the whole hog!
Scotlad is small enough to operate without councils. And before anyone accuses me of seeing with only Edinburgh/Glasgow eyes, I live in nor near neither.
Does anyone seriously thinkthat services would be any worse without councils?
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A few things, since I've been relatively quiet with my postings.
LIT is a good idea in principle, but how does it work with regards to second homes? And if a second home is in England how then will this be reconciled?
The Green Party seems to have some problems afoot - have a read of the latest Private Eye.
Europe - the EU themselves are now indiciating that the Republic of Ireland will be hit hardest with the recession: could this be another victim of the "Arc of Prosperity" Curse? :p
Another gem in Private Eye re an SNP led council giving a rather substantial grant to a certain transport company that is highly profitable.
And when will Scottish Labour get someone decent to go head to head with the First Minister? I always thought that an oposition leader had the easiest job in politics!
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#13 irnbru_addict
"What about a bit more radicalism?"
OK.
Let's not abolish the Council Tax (since we would lose the Council Tax Benefit through the DWP).
Instead, let's enhance everyone's freedom of choice by offering them the choice of deciding which tax to pay.
Of course, LIT would be set at a reasonable level, while Council Tax would be increased by 1000%.
That should bring in a lot of extra revenue to Scottish Councils from the DWP.
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#13 irnbru_addict
"Does anyone seriously think that services would be any worse without councils?"
Absolutely I do, enough that if what you suggest came to pass I would give serious consideration to leaving Scotland. With both the Tories and Labour passionately in love with centralisation and centrally held power then, without any form of local democracy, anyone outside of the Edinburgh-Glasgow belt would suffer serious loss in services but continue to pay the bill. If they can convince the electorate that (for example) London 2012 is good for Scotland then imagine just how much further they could take it.
#14 Neil_Small147
"And if a second home is in England how then will this be reconciled?"
Presumably the second home would fall under the remit of English law and English taxation, just as it would if the first home were in France.
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Glenrothes had more to do with the media building up a Labour headie into some sort of 'everyman' character ... despite the fact he had no idea what a card-run gas meter is! While also letting him run on issues he has no ability to change now he managed to get himself into the ultimate gentleman's club. It had nothing to do with the LIT.
It would be wonderful to know what some real Labour Party members in Scotland thought of rejecting an income-based tax in favour of a set-level form based on property values ... I thought Labour were rebranding themselves as 'socialists' or at least 'social democrats' again?!
Its just another instance of Iain Gray being led by the nose (like all his predecessors) by the London Labour elite.
Finally, there is a big difference between those who would attend the Green Energy Awards and the membership of the Green Party. Some of the people at the Green Energy Awards may actually want to achieve something and thereby reject participation in the Green Party or even be actively engaged in the internal politics of one of the big two (SNP or Labour).
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#14, Neil - Ireland outperformed Scotland economically by more than 1% growth year on year over the last 30 years.
Unless some huge change happens in the intervening years, this pattern of Ireland exponentially outstripping the economic growth seen in Scotland will recurr, after both economies have recovered from this slump (so magnified by the incompetent economic policies of Brown over the last decade).
That is one of the major reasons why the Calman Commission is such a joke. Not only does it rule out independence; it then also rules out full fiscal autonomy!
How on earth is Scotland's economy meant to match the growth of other small European nations over the course of decades (or even the rest of the UK), when no viable solutions are even allowed to be considered?! We will remain a rich nation, populated disproportionately by poor people; unless some radical change of policy is made. It wont be made by London, or its 'regional' Parties in Scotland.
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"Does anyone seriously think that services would be any worse without councils?"
Yes. Your idea would make Scotland the most centralised society in the world, a city state without a city.
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It is good to deliver local services according to local needs.
But councils and councillors are a waste of time.
Targets and minimum levels of service should be set by Government, and let the respective areas get on with it.
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"We will remain a rich nation, populated disproportionately by poor people" says PattyMKirkwood.
And with that one phrase, this poster sums up in a sentence why we urgently need independence.
It's a shame that the clear advantages of LIT are being ignored by Labour and indeed our own journalists.
There may indeed be teething problems with the new system, however surely the fact that it sets out to help the poorest in society is enough to compel our politicians to work together.
If one party try to sabotage this for no other reason than to spite the democratically elected government then they should be hounded by our media.
If they have an alternative system that aims to be fairer then by all means let's debate it's merits, otherwise get out of the way.
And, why in the name of goodness can't Scottish journalists stand up once in a while against bullying and blackmail from Westminster. The threat to cut the block has been reported on occassionally, however it is a purely manufactured hurdle and deserves to be roundly condemned by our press.
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Neil_small147
The only true measure of a countries financial problems is is their level of debt as a % of GDP.
The figure for Ireland is 25%. Some figures for the UK once PFI/PPP and the bank bail outs, and then this new borrowing from Darling are taken into account, could be as high as 127% by 2011.
The average growth figure for Ireland over the last 6 years is 6.9% against Scotland at 2.3% Which country will be out of recession first, Ireland or Scotland?
What about Norway, more comparable to Scotland as we both have oil. Have they pleaded to rejoin Sweden yet? How deep is their recession?
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Pretty suspect use of figures, dubbieside. It's misleading to compare Ireland now with a hypothetical UK figure for 2011.
Scotland will come out of the recession first, for the simple reason of having a lesser housing bubble.
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So, to paraphrase Monty Python....what have local councils ever done for us?
Ok all ye proponents of alleged local democracy, tell me some really exciting and innovative things that local councils have delivered....as opposed say, to the social development programmes pursued by the unelected and non-accountable Highlands and Islands Enterprise or old HIDB?
And who says abolishing local councils means abolishing localism?
Old Nat, three cheers for an attempt at radicalism!
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Local councils do dull but necessary work, irnbru_addict. Your desire for exciting, innovative things to be 'delivered' is a rather old-fashioned attitude, circa six months ago. It's a very New Labour way of looking at things; what eye-catching wheeze can we think up next?
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#20 - If the troubles at the Herald are anything to go by, Scottish journalists are starting to realise the price of pushing a Unionist agenda. The Daily Record, now surpassed by the Sun in terms of sales, will probably realise too late that the price of rubbishing the SNP by trumpeting NuLab lies and negativety is to turn off the bulk of your readership - after all, how many readers want to hear that their too wee, too poor and too stupid to run their own affairs, day in and day out? I know I'm not the only one who stopped by the Record for that very reason.
Of course, it will mean more of these "Scottish" papers going to the wall but if we end up with a more balanced press, and by extension a more balanced media in general, it would be a price worth paying.
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#23 irnbru_addict
Excitement and innovation are down to interpretation, but some things which our local councillors have done for the area recently or are in the process of being done which have been good locally and would not have been considered in central government:
- local outdoor "path network" for walkers and extreme runners which has increased outdoor pursuits and is improving tourism and grass roots sports;
- local conservation area to retain historic appeal of town;
- review of town signs to ensure tourists find their way and to ensure the small business (we can thank our councillors for keeping them in mind when making decisions and helping them survive);
- organisation of local businesses to improve and maintain appeal of town and increase visitor attraction;
- car parking facilities;
- regular entertainment and use of community park;
- local recreation and indoor-exercise facilities;
- disputes;
- new bus route to skiing resort;
- night wardens in targeted areas.
Exciting they may not be, but important and focused to the local area they are.
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Anaxim
What do you think the UK debt is today as a % of GDP.
If you believe Labours spin it is 42%, but most commentators put it higher than that.
Ireland has no dodgy off books accounting, i.e. PFI/PPP so their growth in debt as a % of GDP will reach no where near the projected 127% the UK will reach in 2011.
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Maybe its time to go back to local councils, instead of the huge regional councils we have at present.
I am old enough to remember when councils were small enough to react to local needs.
As an example in snow like we have just had the burgh engineer moved the parks people to gritting roads and footpaths.
On Friday morning I passed three council workers picking litter on the Prom, even though they could hardly walk because of the ice.
Could be better employed during the bad weather.
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#28 dubbieside
We have the present council structure because first UK Labour and then UK Tories imposed their dogma driven re-organisations - regardless of what suited Scotland.
Even under the Lab/Lib run Scottish Executive, a single electoral system of PR was applied across all councils. PR was a great thing for democracy in my part of the country which was formerly a one party state, but seemed inappropriate for areas like the Highlands where political councillors were uncommon and the local link to a single councillor for the area much more important (as northhighlander has pointed out).
For most functions, local councils are acting as the local agents of the Scottish Government. It is important to distinguish between these nationally funded functions, and the genuinely local functions which should be funded by local taxation.
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Worth mentioning again in reference to some of the posts here
Norway has a fund worth a benefit of £50,000 to every houshold in Norway
Britain has a debt the equivalent of £50,000 for every houshold in UK (and Scotland)
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26. TimothyFClarke wrote a number of responses which I thank him/her for. It's good to have a bit of banter about this stuff and I'm glad someone values local authorities. Taking each point in turn:
- "local outdoor "path network" for walkers and extreme runners
Didn't Sustrans do this on a UK basis far more effectively?
- local conservation area to retain historic appeal of town;
Couldn't Historic Scotland be allocated such a power? Isn't it analagous to National park status but on a small scale?
- review of town signs to ensure tourists find their way and to ensure the small business
Why not give a budget to the local Chamber of Commerce?
- organisation of local businesses to improve and maintain appeal of town and increase visitor attraction;
ditto
- car parking facilities;
Doesn't NCT do this?
- regular entertainment and use of community park;
Admittedly, councillors do provide entertainment!
- local recreation and indoor-exercise facilities;
Glasgow have hived this off, so why do councils have to do it?
- disputes;
Admittedly, some councils have piloted alternative dispute resolution/mediation and this could be described as innovative BUT didn't SACRO do it first?
- new bus route to skiing resort;
Could be left to the private sector.
- night wardens in targeted areas.
What are Police for?
Key point in all this is why do you actually need an elected local authority to do this stuff? Cheaper and more effective without all the silly council shenanigans.
Oh, and Anaxim, throwing an insult by describing someone as Nu Labour because you don't like what they say is just silly. I'm not a Labour member/supporter and wouldn't pee on them if they were on fire!
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#28 - "I am old enough to remember when councils were small enough to react to local needs."
I couldn't agree more. I remember the days of Clydesdale council. If there was even a hint of frost, Clydesdale would deploy its fleet of gritters because the area is always badly hit. Now Clydesdale is part of South Lanarkshire Council, based in Hamilton, a comparitively low lying area which tends not to be too badly affected by cold snaps. Now, as part of a cost cutting measure, what have SLC decided is unimportant? Yep, ensuring the roads are regularly gritted.
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We do need local councils, but in my view they should be political.
If I am right, decades ago many councillors were men and women who had been successful in their own careers, and chose to give something back to their communities.
To many councillors now view the role as a stepping stone to Parliament, be it Holyrood or Westminster.
You can see how efficient councils can be: here in East Kilbride we tend to get snow and ice worse than the rest of the Glasgow area. Just as it was thawing yesterday, out came the council to grit the paths that had been skating rinks for three days. Unfortunately they didn't do it right and this morning it was like Torvill and Dean again!
21. At 8:45pm on 05 Dec 2008, dubbieside wrote:
What about Norway, more comparable to Scotland as we both have oil. Have they pleaded to rejoin Sweden yet? How deep is their recession?
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We don't have oil. The revenue belongs to the UK. I'm not defending this situation but we are not magically going to have 100 billion pounds should we go independent and get the oil revenue. And borrowing against futures is very risky - look at how volatile the price has been lately.
Scotland needs a stable and prosperous economy in place prior to any move to independence otherwise we are going to have problems.
It is always oil, oil, oil. You need more than that for prosperity. Whiskey and tourism do not employ enough people, and according to some posters perhaps up to 25% of the working population is employed by the Government, something unlikely to be sustainable in an small independent nation of five million.
Public transport is being neglected by the current Scottish Government, with all the benefits going to private companies. There is a chronic shortage of public accommodation, something unikely to be resolved for years. These issues are critical to a successful economy.
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At the risk of being controversial, what if it were proposed to bring back the poll tax (although under another name)?
We already pay an income tax so I don't think another one is appropriate. After all, the local tax is supposed to be used to pay for services, and the more people there are in a household, the more services they tend to use.
So what about the poll tax would be seen as unfair in 2008?
Or how about a hybrid poll/council tax?
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#31 irnbru_addict
"wouldn't pee on them if they were on fire!"
What are the Fire Brigade for?
:-)
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#31 irnbru_addict
("Him", definitely "him", at least it was the last time I checked!)
I'll try to answer all your points but essentially it all comes down to local knowledge a councillor has or can have ready access to.
Sustrans is for a cycle network and works at a national level. The path network we have locally is for walking/running and covers local spots (sights such as vantage points, historic areas such as abandoned fermtouns, days out such as the bluebell wood, ancient cateran tracks etc). A national network, even one for walking, would not have such excellent coverage at such local level nor would it be capable of such close working relationships with land owners (even with the right to roam). Urban requirements for a path network differs greatly from those in rural locations.
Historic Scotland are more concerned with larger buildings and such like. The conservation area I live in however is such because so many of the old weaver cottages still exist with little change, so many of the views need to be retained, the kirks, even down to that the town was one of the few which refused to allow the iron railings to be taken for the "war effort" (quite rightly as it turned out -- collected iron is said to have been all dumped at the bottom of the North Sea). A little like a national park, it ensures the character of the area is maintained or changed sympathetically.
Re town signs and local business -- again local knowledge. CofC wouldn't be able to, for example, get local small shop owners from one small town into one room to plan changes in shop frontage, common funds etc.
NCT, local recreation indoor-exercise facilities and bus route -- the area is too small for such commercial volatility or even viability. Many small towns rely on the council to strike deals with schools or hotels for exercise facilities, bus routes are subsidised and focused, and business to independent shops is sensitive to car parking.
Night wardens are volunteers. They make sense in a small town where there is a smaller police presence.
Sorry to be brief, don't want my comment rejected. Suffice to say -- local knowledge and urban needs against rural needs. Commercial sustainability in larger cities and local volatility to commercial whims in smaller towns.
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#33 Neil_Small147
"Scotland needs a stable and prosperous economy in place prior to any move to independence otherwise we are going to have problems."
Sounds sensible doesn't it? But you'll never recognise 'that day' when the economy is so lovely you're ready to 'leave home from mother GB and make your way in the world.'
It's all relative. You're worrying about nothing. It's like waiting until the right time to have kids. If you wait for that, you will never have them.
Scotland has a good enough 'job' at the moment to do more than survive. Perhaps like leaving one career for another, things may (or may not) be a bit tighter for the first wee while, but it's the same with having kids.
You get on with it, work hard and then surprisingly quickly, things get easier and better. You're glad you did it and don't apreciate why you hesitated beforehand.
I kind of sympathise with your attidute, as you are probably genuinly concerned.
But, mate, when you stip it all away, it's gutless. That's it.
When the history books are written, your fear will be rationalised but not valued .
"It is always oil, oil, oil. You need more than that for prosperity. Whiskey and tourism do not employ enough people, and according to some posters perhaps up to 25% of the working population is employed by the Government, something unlikely to be sustainable in an small independent nation of five million."
It's a bit of a cartoony summary, but you have to look at the reasons why (some!) of that may indeed be.
Unless it's because Scots are really dumb, then why don't we get off our backside, vote for change and do something to change this imperfect picture you are so bothered about.
Naturally an independent Scotland will also be very imperfect for a start (that's the point) but at least then you have the authority to do something about it.
If that includes improving the system to one less biased to the central belt, start campaigning for that.
You can't say you don't want to choose the possibility for change as it hasn't already delivered the changes yet.
That way you are waiting for nice changes to arrive on a plate. I'm afraid we have to go out after them. Scotland will be what we make it.
As in life, there can be no guarantees we will do everything right straight away, as if there were, that would strip our achievements of all merit they deserve through our efforts.
You do not have confidence in your country? That is truly sad.
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Cheers TimothyFClarke and Old Nat. Good chat!
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Defence spending doesn't look like it will do much for our economy after all.
Aircraft carriers delayed by Ministry of Defence budget crisis
"A review of major defence projects will next week confirm that the MoD does not have enough money to meet its planned timetable for buying new ships, warplanes and armoured vehicles.
Instead of cutting any projects outright, John Hutton, the Defence Secretary, has decided to delay several of them instead.
The biggest to be affected will be the £3.9 billion purchase of two new aircraft carriers.
The vessels had been due to enter service in 2014 and 2016. But one of the new ships will now be delayed by at least a year and possibly two.
The delay will raise fears for jobs in the defence industry."
Also our troops may be home from Iraq in time for Xmas.
To me this sounds like a classic Government leak designed to provide a face saving excuse for getting out of this illegal war ASAP.
It's all very well for the UK to want to "play with the big boys", but maybe NuLab have finally learned that borrowing the money to do it is impossible for a wee European island.
Time for Westminster to turn to things they can do - like replacing the English Council Tax.
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13* irnbru-addict.
Absolutely. Well put.
If LIT is thwarted in Parliament, then the Government should immediately call a General Election. It would be returned with an overwhelming majority; then it could introduce LIT. This would stop the petty wrangling between Opposition Party members - particularly the idiotic Greens.
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37. At 01:05am on 06 Dec 2008, aye_write wrote:
Naturally an independent Scotland will also be very imperfect for a start (that's the point) but at least then you have the authority to do something about it.
You do not have confidence in your country? That is truly sad.
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Imperfect to start? Great. I'm in my early forties which means I would likely lose out. I have a pension I receive at 60 which is currently guaranteed under the UK, but not under an independent Scotland since no one can categorically state who will pay it. Likewise, my current employer would almost certainly have to move from Scotland due to the SNPs policies (no I don't have anything to do with Faslane). Not only me, but another 1200 people would be directly affected - ie unless Alex Salmond changes a certain policy we all lose our jobs. That would mean having to relocate to England which means a loss to the Scottish economy.
I don't have confidence in the politicians of any party to lead an independent Scotland since nearly all - including the SNP - are tied into private businesses. All the major politicians are there for their own political purposes, Alex and Co included.
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#41 Neil_Small147
"I don't have confidence in the politicians of any party"
Now if you had stopped there, we would have been in total agreement!
Which of the UK political parties's politicians do you trust to lead an independent UK?
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#41 Neil_Small147
"I don't have confidence in the politicians of any party"
Now if you had stopped there, we would have been in total agreement!
Which of the UK political parties's politicians do you trust to lead an independent UK?
(Site problem this morning I see)
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#33 and passim Neill_Small147
"Scotland needs a stable and prosperous economy in place prior to any move to independence otherwise we are going to have problems."
You mean we do not have problems now? One certainly has problems if one puts the cart before the horse. Have you tried that? Inadvisable, although the horse is perfectly indifferent about it: front, back; back, front; whatever.
The question is: what constitutes putting the cart before the horse? Ask the Irish. If they had not gone for independence when they did, they would still be waiting for propitious economic circumstances if they had taken your advice, in all probability, whereas, having taken independence instead, they have made their country prosperous.
Time for me to roll out again the ineffably wise anglo-Irish sage and martyr for the cause of independence, for whom principle and courage went hand in hand, leading to a satisfactory practical outcome ultimately, although not for himself, personal sacrifice being not uncommonly the lot of those who are principled and courageous. Nevertheless, although all that the first Erskine Childers got out of the independence struggle was a bullet, at least the second one, his son, became President of the Irish Republic, illustrating the fact that radical change may be expected to benefit future generations more than the present one:
"The modern case for the Union rests mainly on the abnormality of Ireland, and that is precisely why it is such a formidable case to meet. For Ireland in many ways is painfully abnormal. The most cursory study of her institutions and social, economic, and political life demonstrate that fact. The Unionist, fixing his eyes on some of the secondary peculiarities, and ignoring their fundamental cause, demonstrates it with ease, and by a habit of mind which yields only with infinite slowness to the growth of political enlightenment, passes instinctively to the deduction that Irish abnormalities render Ireland unfit for self-government. In other words, he prescribes for the disease a persistent application of the
very treatment which has engendered it. Whatever the result, there is a plausible answer. If Ireland is disorderly and retrograde, how can she deserve freedom? If she is peaceful, and shows symptoms of economic recuperation, clearly she does not need or even want it. In other words, if all that is healthy in the patient battles desperately and not in vain, first against irritant poison, and then against soporific drugs, this healthy struggle for self-preservation is attributed not to native vitality, but to the bracing regimen of coercive government." (Erskine Childers, The Framework of Home Rule, 1911)
In what is left of the United Kingdom we are now being told that Scotland is not ready for independence. Subordinate territories are always unready for independence if judged by criteria determined by the dominant power and chaps worried about their pensions. I have a pension dependent on the present UK state too. That matters to me. Scotland matters more. All of these issues are precisely the type of thing which becomes the subject of negotiations once independence has been chosen. The UK government can hardly be expected to enter into such discussions in advance of such a decision or even to contemplate that such a decision might be taken. Nonetheless, I have no fears about an independent Scotland . . . or about my pension for that matter.
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Anaxtogrind
Superbe
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#41 Neil_Small147
You may be worried about Nuclear Fuels, but not your pension.
If it's a company or private pension then it makes no difference whether Scotland is independent or not.
If it's a government pension, then when Scotland becomes independent, there have to be negotiations as to how the resources and liabilities of the UK are divvied up.
Pensions backed by the state are simply unsecured liabilities, thus the cost of paying for that portion "earned" by all UK employees, while we are in the UK is a joint liability.
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(#44. Anaxetogrind - gosh, very well put!)
#41. Neil_Small147
I fear you will never be happy.
It would have been great if we'd taken the step to independence when I was a child and you a teenager so you would not have to worry about it now.
I am not far behind you (34, hubby 39) but do you know what I am concerned about much more than our pensions? The type of country my children will live in as adults.
I've been waiting nearly 30 years for the day to come, so I am resigned to the long game. My selfish reasons only involve having a post election party!
Scotland in the Union hasn't left you glad. Can you look for another job now? - the one you've got seems to be making you stressed? (I actually wish you well!!)
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43. At 11:36am on 06 Dec 2008, oldnat wrote:
#41 Neil_Small147
"I don't have confidence in the politicians of any party"
Now if you had stopped there, we would have been in total agreement!
Which of the UK political parties's politicians do you trust to lead an independent UK?
-----------
Ooh, tricky one.
Those I would trust:
Nicola Sturgeon
Andy Kerr (good constituency MSP)
Vince Cable
Menzies Campbell
Boris Johnson
Annabel Goldie
William Hague
Liam Fox
Alan Beith
I'm not interested in party lines or if someone has had a priviledged background. What counts is their actions.
Most of the better MPs and MSPs tend to sit on committees, rather than have front bench roles. I have a distrust of new MPs catapulted into high profile roles (eg Home Secretary) where there is a huge degree of responsibility.
But everyone has their own preferences and I'm sure a few on here will disagree with some of my choices.
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#48 Neil_Small147
I too like Annabel :-)
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47. At 1:00pm on 06 Dec 2008, aye_write wrote:
(#44. Anaxetogrind - gosh, very well put!)
#41. Neil_Small147
I fear you will never be happy.
It would have been great if we'd taken the step to independence when I was a child and you a teenager so you would not have to worry about it now.
I am not far behind you (34, hubby 39) but do you know what I am concerned about much more than our pensions? The type of country my children will live in as adults.
I've been waiting nearly 30 years for the day to come, so I am resigned to the long game. My selfish reasons only involve having a post election party!
Scotland in the Union hasn't left you glad. Can you look for another job now? - the one you've got seems to be making you stressed? (I actually wish you well!!)
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Apologies for two posts on the trot.
Stressed? I'm not stressed but I want to know what the great plan is for independence before I make a decision. I've spent half my working life in England and the other half here in Scotland. I've seen the benefits of both countries and also the downsides as well.
There is this rosy picture painted by the nationalists about how we will all be fabulously healthy and wealthy come independence.
On the other side the unionists say we will be bankrupt.
I think the truth lies somewhere in the middle. But we have to get there first. You cannot simply switch to independence. There are huge potential difficulties awaiting us.
The SNP MUST produce a detailed plan prior to any referendum. It must be backed up with solid independent evidence. If they can do this then that would negate any spin by the opposition. They have time, it's unlikely they will be booted out at the next Scottish Elections, unless Alex screws up.
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BAE accused of £100m secret payments to seal South Africa arms deal
"More than £100m was secretly paid by the arms company BAE to sell warplanes to South Africa, according to allegations in a detailed police dossier seen by the Guardian yesterday.
The leaked evidence from South African police and the British Serious Fraud Office quotes a BAE agent recommending "financially incentivising" politicians."
"BAE is accused in the reports of corrupt relationships with an arms tycoon, John Bredenkamp, recently blacklisted in the US for his links with Robert Mugabe of Zimbabwe. Bredenkamp's blacklisting freezes his assets in the US."
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#50. Neil_Small147
I respect your views but without a crystal ball a detailed plan will be out of date as soon as it's published, and as such be more amunition for the Unionists.
Do you get a detailed plan when you start parenting?
My optimism is based on getting on through putting the effort in, same as other countries do.
So unless Scots are genetically inferior (with broadly the same set of circumstances facing them as their neighbouring European states), of course I expect Scots to do well.
Your argument hangs on the assumption, until proved otherwise, that they won't. Not showing a lot of self belief.
I think rather than waiting around for a psychic vision that will 'hold our hand while we cross the road', we need to stop being so cowardly and get up and get going.
The results of 300 years of Union on self worth are marvellous, eh?
Of course you won't agree with this, but no worry, it is hardly surprising - over the years many have turned the exact same way. I must wait, and wait...
TTFN
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#50 and others, Neil_Small147: You, sir, are in imminent danger of becoming the most sensible poster on the blog.
#52 and others, aye_write: You, lady, could join him - but you must learn to adress the perceptions of others, even when you know/believe them to be wrong.
Make that your motto for a week. I believe it will help you to unlock the good ideas you are struggling to articulate.
In such company any post fom me would be inadequate. So, I'll just look on for a while.
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#48 Neil_Small147
Interesting that of your 9, 4 represent Scots constituencies (5 if we count Alan Beith, since Berwick is really ours!). Vince Cable was a Glasgow Labour Councillor in the 70s, Liam Fox is a Scot, so you would only add Hague and Johnson as additional to Scots in running the UK.
You have been fooling us all - you're real political identity has been outed from the closet.
You are a Scottish Imperialist who wants Scots to rule first the UK, and then the world! (and I claim my 10 pounds for identifying you).
:-)
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aye_write and Anaxetogrind,
Thank you both for succinctly and eloquently expressing precisely my feelings in a manner that I am frustratingly never able to do successfully.
Neil_Small147,
I feel I understand you just a little bit better, and I understand your fears. I always read your posts and try to see where you are coming from. To me though, I feel it is more important to do what is right, over what is expedient or personally beneficial.
To all, in a future independent Scotland, would there be some way to end the unfortunate two/three party system without destroying the whole political process? I mean maybe remove the party whips and introduce secret voting in Holyrood? The reason I ask is that I can't believe for a moment that all/most/many Labour MSPs dislike LIT so much. It destroys my faith in the system watching supposed socialists twisting and turning in their attempts to discredit LIT simply because it is the policy of the 'opposition'. Don't they realise it shouldn't be a case of one lot 'in power' and the other lot out? They are all 'in power' if they are elected to Holyrood and it would serve them well to remember why we invested them with that power- namely to act in the best interests of Scotland and her people.
I'm not saying LIT is perfect, but you'd think that if you put 129 random people in a room for a day and asked them to come up with a fair, workable solution, they'd probably manage just fine.
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#55 Richard_the_Rogue
"introduce secret voting in Holyrood"
What an interesting idea.
It would destroy the power of the parties without necessarily, destroying the parties themselves.
Of course, there would then be a problem of people voting Labour, while their MSP votes for Tory policies. You would never have that with open recorded voting :-)
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Brian Quaote: "Labour tacticians think that LIT won them votes in Glenrothes - and they believe they can make it more unpopular still by targeting aspirational families."
... You know the tune Brian... All together now...
'Are you Tory's in disguise... Are you Toooorrrys in disguise... Are you Tory's, are you Tory's... Are you Tory's in disguise?'
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#53. brigadierjohn
The price you pay to sit on the fence
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I note that Peter Mandelson wasn't on Neil_Small's list - not surprisingly.
Mandelson accused of 'bully-boy tactics' over HBOS merger
The MSPs accused Lord Mandelson of "undemocratic bully-boy tactics", saying his lawyers had threatened to sue the Merger Action Group (MAG) for legal costs if they did not halt their court action.
But the Department for Business, Enterprise and Regulatory Reform (Berr) insisted an offer extended to the group to withdraw their challenge was "neither an ultimatum nor a threat".
The offer was aimed at saving the group costs, a spokeswoman said.
Since that nice Lord Mandelson is keen to save MAG some money, maybe he should go on the list after all :-)
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Labour are terrified of being seen to thwart LIT.
The Council Tax is totally unacceptable and they do not have an alternative.
Add to this Calman's whitewash of Financial Autonomy and the case builds for previously loyal Labour supporters to desert them in droves.
The swing to SNP will continue unabated.
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#58 cynicalHighlander: I never thought of you as a psychobabble freak. Interesting!
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#56 oldnat,
Thanks oldnat, I'll settle for 'interesting', you are someone else whose posts I always pay attention to.
We have here a unique chance to create a 21st century nation. With a little creative thought, maybe we can come up with something better than that which went before. There are five million of us. Maybe in amongst enough 'interesting' ideas there will be enough gems to create something of value.
This is the nation that produced The Enlightenment after all. What makes us think it should be so very hard?
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#61 brigadierjohn
...and I never thought of you as a fence-sitter.
;-)
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A land value tax, paid by or on behalf of the owners of all land, has so many advantages as a replacement for Council Tax, that I am surprised that it is supported only by the Green Party.
Site values reflect the quality of the infrastructure, much of which is provided by local authorities. So it is appropriate to base local taxation on site values.
The system used for collecting Council Tax could easily be adapted to collect land value tax. Valuation would be easier, and development by the owner would not attract extra tax.
Those who own valuable property but have little income, like the poor widows who the opponents of all property taxes shed crocodile tears over, could be allowed to postpone payment until the ownership of the property is transferred.
The wealthy are likely to own more, and more valuable, land than others so the tax would be fairly progressive.
Income is already taxed heavily, while wealth is taxed hardly at all, so a tax related to at least one form of wealth would be preferable to more income tax.
Owners of land or property receive a windfall when site values increase and only a low rate of capital gains tax is charged, none at all in the case the owner's main residence.
It would deter the hoarding of potential building land by builders and others and help reduce the inflation of house prices and agricultural land prices, and increase the supply of houses.
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64. At 4:40pm on 06 Dec 2008, stanblogger wrote:
A land value tax, paid by or on behalf of the owners of all land, has so many advantages as a replacement for Council Tax, that I am surprised that it is supported only by the Green Party.
Site values reflect the quality of the infrastructure, much of which is provided by local authorities. So it is appropriate to base local taxation on site values.
The system used for collecting Council Tax could easily be adapted to collect land value tax. Valuation would be easier, and development by the owner would not attract extra tax.
Those who own valuable property but have little income, like the poor widows who the opponents of all property taxes shed crocodile tears over, could be allowed to postpone payment until the ownership of the property is transferred.
The wealthy are likely to own more, and more valuable, land than others so the tax would be fairly progressive.
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This smacks of pure communism (I think). What you are saying in essence is that once a wealthy landowner dies, unless their dependants can somehow come up with what I would expect to be a large sum of money, the land would have to be sold.
This may be extreme, but this is similar to what Mugabe did to the white-owned farms.
Stick to income tax and pay out from that.
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Secret voting? I'm all in favour. It might get the Government of the day putting forward sensible policies. Only when there is a minority Government such as here in Scotland does something good seem to come out on occasion.
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52. At 1:34pm on 06 Dec 2008, aye_write wrote:
#50. Neil_Small147
I respect your views but without a crystal ball a detailed plan will be out of date as soon as it's published, and as such be more amunition for the Unionists.
Do you get a detailed plan when you start parenting?
---
You completely misunderstand where I am coming from. I'm not focusing on economic plans - although they are important. I'm talking about essntial and critical infrastructure and how it is funded. Short but not a definite list:
Defence, Health, Police, Fire, Ambulance, Tax Office, Public Transport, Foreign Affairs, Immigration, Time Zone, Pensions, Energy, Business, Disaster Recovery, Currency, Education........
Assumption is not required for these. A full set of procedures is.
Plans as these are developed with at strategic level and allow for minor changes.
Think of it as a rather large business plan.
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Brian This is only loosely related to this blog, the link being funding. The item on the fortunes of UK Universities raises some serious issues to the long term health of the Scottish economy and I would like to see some political interest and discussion on it.
see
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/7765923.stm
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A land value tax if it applied sensibly and with a differential according to condition of the land has the extra advantage of pushing useful land into productive use and is already used as part of a basket of taxes which provides local government funding in a number of countries..
There is strong argument for the basket of taxes idea - ie land tax, property tax, local income tax, local sales tax - as such a basket is flexible enough to pull every person into a payment regime while allowing the less well off a lot of relief.
I feel however that LIT is the first step towards a sane and fair sytem and should be adopted first. The other ideas could be incorporated into a basket over a period of time.
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The Scottish Government has decided that the Scottish Universities remain essentially public institutions which can be readily accessed by any person of whatever means. This is the predominately European model.
Universities in England appear to be following an American model which makes tertiary education at University level much less accessible and much more selective.
I much prefer the former
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As a cowardly fence-sitter, I hesitiate to ask a question. But here goes: Regarding LIT, just a few weeks ago it seemed to be agreed by the number-crunchers that LIT would raise about two-thirds of the revenue currently raised by Council Tax.
I did not see a convincing rebuttal of my claim that the shortfall would have to come from major increases in other taxes and charges for services.
And that these new charges would more than nullify any benefits to the supposed beneficiaries of LIT, eg, pensioners.
So, why is this nonsense appearing again?
I freely admit I have no better proposal as a replacement for Council Tax. That's not my job, although I can listen to ideas. Nor do I wish to make any political point.
We have a flawed, insensitive, unpopular system that we all would wish to improve. But replacing it with something we know won't work seems a wee bit crazy to me.
As a likely beneficiary of LIT, on its own, I would love to embrace it. But I just don't fancy paying contracted-out binmen a fiver a throw, a tenner to visit the baths, local purchase tax, or any of the other ruses that would inevitably follow the introduction of LIT.
The above is just one area where we are invited to take a leap of faith. The other unknown, unplanned, unexplained issues are outlined by Neil Small towards the end of his #65.
On the fence seems a safer place to be until we get a Plain English guide to the alternatives..
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#69 brigadierjohn
Is that a Mobius Fence you're sitting on? It appears to have two sides, but when you look more closely...
Anyway, if I understand it correctly, Council Tax / LIT only provides a relatively small proportion of total council funding. LIT would indeed result in a shortfall, due, as we know, to the need to stick within the 3p tax varying limit as set by Westminster, but this would not represent as large a proportion of 1/3 of total council funding.
As I understand it, the shortfall would be compensated for by 'efficiency savings', i.e. the councils would just have to make do with less. Is that such a bad idea? I really don't know.
I'm sure others will correct me if I'm wrong.
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Why is it that this ridiculous claim about something approaching 'capital flight' has re-emerged? There is no evidence to support this view whatsoever.
Scotland will remain a nation of 5 million plus consumers post independence. On a secondary note, what capital will be left to 'flee' by the time Brown is done with our economy in 2010?! That is assuming, he won't try to 'cut and run' in summer 2009 as he knows the UK will suffer deepest and longest.
Addressing a more substantive point: if Labour think the LIT is genuinely so unpopular, when was the last time you heard a Labour politician trumpeting the success of the Council Tax? Even Jack McConnell admitted the Council Tax was unfair ... this lot are actually going backwards. They may even have been better off with Jack or Wendy!
Just wait till the bottom drops out of Gordon's world as it inevitably will in the next couple months: a festive period with very little cheer, and a choice between food and fuel for many will change minds.
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John:
#69.
"But replacing it with something we know won't work seems a wee bit crazy to me."
How'd you know? I was taught that everything was at least worth the try before discarding it totally.
If we agree that council tax is terrible then should be changed, then would LIT not deserve the same chance? If it does not work then at least we have tried it and at least we can then go on to something different.
I do find the Oppositons figures to be 'strange' surrounding LIT. I believe the new amount eligiable for LIT happens to be under estimated. From a personal view, LIT would cost my father more then council tax, the only person who contributes to CT despite there being 5 working family members. Then of course the 'others' would also have to pay. Overall my family would be forking out more for LIT, even the low earners would be paying more then they usually do.
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#70 Richard: You're taunting me with your education. Is Mobius something to do with tricks of light and the appearance of things?
I can't let you away with "efficiency savings." You know it's a smokescreen. They never happen.
Joe Taxpayer, and Joe Non-Taxpayer will foot the bill for LIT, to the benefit of neither.
Anyway, I'm off for now. This thread seems to have expired anyway.
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LIT will indeed produce a shortfall, it has been acknowledged by the SNP who have allocated funds to make up this shortfall.
Labour however at Westminster have introduced an obstacle by threatening to cut that part of the block that goes towards council funding.
In other words Labour are introducing a hurdle that needn't be there for no other reason than spite.
LIT is relatively simple, fairer and the mechanisms for collection are already in place. Furthermore it will allow councils to free up resources that would have otherwise have been needed in order to collect council tax.
Remove the manufactured obstacles introduced by Westminster and the reasons not to support this fairer system basically evaporate.
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#73 brigadierjohn,
You ask a question then declare you're off before I can answer!
My reference was to the Mobius strip, a surface with only one side. I know you don't do links, so I'll leave it to you to look it up in your local reference library. That way you'll be getting value for money from your Council Tax.
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69. brigadierjohn
Lord Newby FEB 2004
" At present, about 75 per cent of the revenue of local councils comes from national government. A mere 25 per cent is raised and set locally. To make matters worse, the sole significant source of locally raised revenue is generated by the council tax; a tax introduced in panic by a Conservative government to rescue themselves from the greatest failure in taxation in our lifetimes?the poll tax. Council tax itself is now failing.
Council tax is failing partly because it is expected to bear too great a burden, but also because it is a thoroughly unfair tax."
"Council tax is unfair because it is completely unrelated to income. It operates under a banding system that puts a ceiling on what the richest pay and a floor under what the
9 Feb 2004 : Column 943
poorest pay. As a result, the poorest 10 per cent pay over four times more of their income in council tax than the richest 10 per cent.
The poorest 20 per cent of pensioners pay nearly six times more as a proportion of their income than the richest 20 per cent of non-pensioners. In a year when state pensions rose by 2.6 per cent and council tax by 13 per cent, it is hardly surprising that pensioners have become the most vociferous opponents of council tax. "
" We estimate that approximately 70 per cent of households would be better off or unaffected by the switch to local income tax. Those who will be better off will be the less well-off households now. For example, for a household on median income, and currently living in an average band D council-tax property, local income tax would save them some £460 per year. An equivalent pensioner couple on an income of just over £14,000 would save £1,080. Losers would be high income earners and some dual or multiple income earning households, but this is inevitable if one replaces an unfair, regressive tax with a fairer, progressive one."
"Local government funding is in a crisis. Council tax simply cannot bear the demands being placed on it. A local income tax would be fairer, easier to collect and more transparent than council tax. It is a buoyant source of funds. For these reasons it is commonly applied across the world. It is time that it was introduced here."
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Thought I'd go back to #13 irnbru_addict's question -
"Does anyone seriously think that services would be any worse without councils?" -
and start by looking at what their major functions were historically.
In the 1930s, they were "Police, Fire, Education, Public Health, Public Assistance, Housing, Lighting, Drainage"
Few of these are still run by Local Government, and LG funds little of these services themselves.
It maybe makes more sense to decide first for each self-identified community 1.which services they can and want to provide and pay for themselves, and
2.which, of those services that the Scottish Government wants locally provided, they are prepared to manage on behalf of the Government and take the Government funding.
Any shortfall in communities willing to take over the local management of national functions (Education, Social Work etc) could then be administered by quangos in the same way as Water, Police, Fire and Health are handled.
Only then does it make sense to decide how to fund the services they can and want to provide for themselves.
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Iain McWhirter in tomorrow's Sunday Herald
"BBC Scotland managed to slip in another 20 redundancies in its news and current affairs department last week."
If this is the last ever BT thread, then we'll know one of them!
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"From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs."
If we explicitise "ability" as "ability to pay", then this should be the basis for any future taxation regime for finding local (and other) government.
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Several countries do taxation the other way about.
All tax is collected locally in them and a proportion is sent to national government to pay for the level of national services that community wants to pay for.
That would soon get rid of Trident!
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Right, beer in hand, here we go.
53. brigadierjohn
I'll take your point. :-)
Be less flippant? (Like school! I'm doomed...)
"struggling to articulate."
Correct. Posting was supposted to improve my writing :-)
65. Neil_Small147
"You completely misunderstand where I am coming from..."
I think I did leapfrog your point. Regrets and oops-a-daisy :-(
I assumed you'd assumed what I'd assumed.
In the same vein as #62 Richard_the_Rogue's "'interesting' ideas", I'd taken for granted that (also Richard's) #55 "129 random people in a room" scenario would provide the great "large business plan" of yours. That is, I'd taken it as read such details would automatically be worked out. So, no need to concern myself over it.
Now, I've noticed what you say, I'm warming to it. You have a point, in that why can't this work be done now (keep the form of your business plan), in preparation for independence if you like? That's a good idea - helpful.
You're right I suppose, anyone giving a passing glance to the situation could assume there is no plan and therefore conclude Scotland is not ready. I shall not pounce on them.
I haven't noticed that the National Conversation has produced this sort of a framework (then I didn't notice your point), but if they are/have, I wonder why it isn't under more media scrutiny. Maybe the SNP will pick it's moment to reveal it.(Rambling now...)
#55 Cheers Richard!!
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65. Neil_Small147
From the SNP website:
"While negotiations are under way, a written constitution for an independent Scotland will be drafted, which will guarantee rights for Scotland?s citizens and set out how Scotland will be governed."
They must have drafted this already?
They must have drafted the 'large business plan too'.
I've got to have missed it?
Oh, well.
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82. At 11:18pm on 06 Dec 2008, aye_write wrote:
65. Neil_Small147
From the SNP website:
"While negotiations are under way, a written constitution for an independent Scotland will be drafted, which will guarantee rights for Scotland?s citizens and set out how Scotland will be governed."
They must have drafted this already?
They must have drafted the 'large business plan too'.
I've got to have missed it?
Oh, well.
----------------
Show how well they advertised it! I like to read political websites but I remove my brain first. But I don't think they really have made their "business plan". Maybe they can ask Mr Souter for some advice on business plans; he's done rather well.
Now I wonder why the hell Gordon Brown doesn't try LIT. He may be accused of stealing ideas, but he could respond saying it is a good idea and politicians should work together etc etc zzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzz
But that would be like getting Alex Salmond to accept nuclear power even if there were no alternatives. (please, no debate just making a comparison!).
Why can't politicians ever accept they can be wrong?
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Iain MacWhirter from The Sunday Herald (May it rest in peace).
"But these pale into insignificance next to Johnston Press, which owes a reported £465 million. Johnston Press shares used to sell at nearly 500p - and dipped last week to below 7p. You could probably buy the lot - The Scotsman, Scotland on Sunday, Edinburgh Evening News and about 300 local titles - for £40 million.
The odd thing is that there has never been more to report in Scotland, with the Scottish parliament creating a new political culture north of the border and the SNP seeking to dismantle the Union. Perhaps that's the problem - there's just too much news."
It seems that no-one in the Scottish media is prepared to address the dreadfull bias that exists within Scotland's media outlets. This may not cause the downward trend in sales but it surely must be acknowledged that it compounds the problem.
The Scotsman has deteriorated to such an extent that it is a parody of a biased paper. The demise of The Herald however has been difficult to watch.
Barely 2 years ago it was the best paper in Scotland by a mile. A subtle Unionist bias was acceptable as articles were by and large informed and well presented.
The 2007 election saw a deterioration in the paper throughout the campaign, though this was nothing when compared to the sustained attacks on the SNP in the subsequent by-elections of Glasgow East and Glenrothes. Glenrothes was particularly shocking and has surely hastened the demise of the organ.
Three elections in quick succession would in themselves have altered much in terms of political coverage. The difference now though is that the SNP are a real threat to Labour.
The dramatic switch in political reporting as each election approached was stark. The subtle bias was replaced each time with a clear shift as the SNP policies were targetted ad-nauseam.
The press in Scotland don't deserve to survive. They have pinned their colours to the Unionist mast and will go down with the ship.
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#83 - Neil, politicians are professions who rely on their 'reputations' (as they see them), that is why. It is also why Gordon Brown cannot admit he has just spent the last ten years effectively ensuring the UK is the worst placed of the major economies in the world.
#84 - Greenockboy, thanks for the feedback earlier incidentally - only just spotted that now.
Regarding the Scotsman et al: we don't happen to know anyone with around 40 million to spare do we?! Could be very useful turning rags like the Scotsman into a pro-independence rag. Imagine what the sales of such a national publication would be like, as the good third-plus of those who read quality papers gravitated toward this new product.
People would start buying both the Scotsman and Alf's Herald again, as they used to; before becoming disgusted with one or the other or both!
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Anyone who has switched to the SNP because of their proposals for LIT should do what I have done - write to the local MP of the Party they formerly supported and voted for, pointing out that Council tax is an unfair tax on the poor and their opposition makes the opposed Party MP's look as if they are greedy and looking after themselves, as they would obviously pay a greater portion of their income under LIT.
If the SNP fail to get LIT through because of opposition, I for one won't be switching back to Labour as no reforming of the Council tax not linked to income can be fair.
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#83, Neil_Small147 wrote:
"Why can't politicians ever accept they can be wrong?"
Personally, I have greater confidence in conviction politicians - yes, even John St John Stevas's 'Sainted Margaret' (Thatcher, that is) - than in the unimaginative administrators we seem too often to have nowadays.
A politician who doesn't have 'the vision thing' (indeed, one who has any self-doubt) will almost invariably prove ineffective - not least because of the problems in leading his/her party:
What do we want? To stay where we are.
When do we want it? Until we can think of something better to do.
People are lauding Gordon Brown's 'handling' of the credit crunch crisis, yet all he has done is react to prevailing circumstances. Quite well, I readily concede, and properly reacting to externalities is a duty of a PM, but does the Great Leader have any political target or objective other than to retain power for its own sake?
The date might have been wrong, but Nineteen Eighty-Four may yet prove to have been all too prophetic: after Thatcher and Blair (particularly the latter), is Britain really any more than Airstrip One of the American empire (or Obama's Oceania)?
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#86 Sheneval:
Weel put! I detect a majority of posters here would directly benefit from LIT, as their contributions would be reduced. However, they need convincing of how the percieved shortfall would be raised.
Ultimately, it comes down to the commitment of people to change what they do not like. I see some, like myself will suffer short-term hardship for the greater-good. Now that's the face of Nationalism we seek to forward!
PattyMKirkwood and aye_write put it succinctly; we are the guardians of our children's futures. We can continue to be led, or we can lead. While in Union with a ten-fold larger "partner", we cannot show our leadership and benefit our people. Outwith the union, we can and all parts of the UK shall benefit from a new aspiration within any of the countries.
It's as simple as that.
I feel for the like of Neil_Small147, as I have previously stated (although more harshly). However, he has some validity in his approach; it could go wrong, were the consequences of Independence underestimated. However, given the motivation of fellow advocates, I am confident the people shall maintain their vigilance.
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87 Neil-Small
I think if you look at Child Tax Credits you will find Gordon Brown's vision - Having been a former Labour supporter and voter for 40 years, I think I can say that this is the most important piece of socialist legislation I have seen during that time.
It is not perfect, indeed it is far from perfect, but it outstrips anything that has been done before by miles - if the payments had been income tax related rather than as handouts, it would have been far far better and fraudulent claims would have been almost eliminated.
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#83
"Show how well they advertised it!"
Yes, I'd thought the days of the rickety bright yellow 'classic' caravan and the deteriorating sign above the pokey office (both with beardy jumper-wearers inside!) were behind the SNP.
Although I supported them, I used to cringe at the thought of the negative PR that generated - "Invest your future with us as we know how to run a slick, successful operation." Maybe that was only in the sticks where I was.
However my point is that I'm surprised that I'm surprised (!) that the information re business pan requested by you Neil isn't out there somewhere. (Equals poor excuse for instantly lumping you in with the 'How can our 2 bit nation manage anything!' brigade - I suppose having waited so long for indep., the details became too secondary...)
So, unless the info. is out there, I wonder if the SNP are worried that declaring that sort of stuff will only split the consensus of opinion they need to maintain support?
But why not then introduce a range of options covering these topics for debate, for a (think of a grand name for it) committee to weigh up when these, from my #82, post independence 'negotiations' are under way'?
Wouldn't stressing the fact that we would get to CHOOSE (via much political hand waving!), sufficiently eliminate the worry that not having a final business plan in place now equals 'we don't really have a clue'? (as the latter implies Scots don't have a clue.)
Even better if they point out, we get to decide between X and Y in an issue currently not devolved.
Plus in these times of impending economic gloom, I suspect the populace will be increasingly eager to get their hands on some more control.
The trouble is I suspect that, in power the SNP are expected to have all the answers. Fear of seeming incompetent prohibits some of their answers from being 'but in an independent Scotland you can choose."
By attempting to further independence by demonstrating successful governance, is the SNP reducing the perception of all that post indep. choice for voters? (a symptom of the presumed similarity between Holyrood and Westminster?) But then, one step at a time?
Does the SNP say 'Vote for us if you like us, but still vote for us anyway if you don't, as through independence you can still get rid.'? No, because that post indep. negotiating committee would probably be a SNP led one? Better if they stressed it would be made up of all Scotland's political parties.
But how the SNP govern and how an independent Scotland might be governed, need only add up to the same in that neither represents failure.
Maybe they only need to say, "We have demonstrated one course of successful Scottish government - for the people, chosen by the people. It can and has been done. There are of course many others. An independent Scotland unlocks that certainty, giving us that reality, so we may choose the one that we want. Just as other nations do."
But then keep reminding us because inherently people will tend to forget, meaning if the SNP turn them off then they also discard independence.
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#88 gt-cri: I like your post. It builds into a latter-day Gettysburg Address, a dream or a vision. Perhaps more appropriately, it reminded me of the toe-curling conclusion to the dreadful Braveheart, when Bruce comically paraphrases Scots Wha Hae: "You have bled with Wallace, will you now bleed with me?"
I can just see Wee Eck in Holyrood: "You have bled with Labour, and you'll damned well bleed with me." Not a good slogan!
Myself? I have a great reluctance to bleed for or with anyone. And my time is too short now to be tholing any "temporary" hardships in the name of faux patriotism.
#75 Richard: Sorry about the swift departure. Duty called! But at least I know about Mobius now. Twist the strip, eh? What party was he in?
#76 cynicalHighlander: Thanks for the quotation. Accepting it at face value, allowing for political bias, you still can't escape the conclusion that, if 75 per cent prosper, the other 25 per cent suffer, and the shortfall still has to be funded. I'm obviously too stupid to reconcile the figures, which was never a strong point with me. I'm just afraid unthinking people will accept anything "because Alex says it." But I see him getting tetchier by the day as even the poor opposition presses him on obvious inconsistencies. Perhaps pressure will be the making of him if he has the character. Perhaps he will crumble. And what's left then?
#81 aye_write: Please keep being flippant, just choose your targets better. Yes, Richard is very clever. But if you put all these people in a room they won't reach a solution. Dominant figures and groups will emerge, there may be violence. The survivors will reach an armed truce on the basis of mutually assured destruction. It would be like a Labour-Tory coalition government - doomed from the outset. Result? No solution to the original problem, and all the truly worthy people dead or disillusioned.
But my glass is half full!
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#91 BrigJohn
"But if you put all these people in a room they won't reach a solution..."
Hilarious!
You are talking to a former playgroup committee member and Chair! ;-D
There is possibly more back-stabbing and infighting and apathy there than in any goverment? :-)(Though I didn't quite need a helmet or a shield!)
Yes, I take your point. Suppose you have to hope that the 'Dominant figures and groups' are the best motivated. Though the people with all the qualities needed to be worthy of being in charge don't seem to emerge very often? (I have upcoming post on same.) But Scotland must have some! Then they've not to get corruped...
Good grief.
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#91 brigadierjohn
"But my glass is half full!"
It all depends how you look at it. My glass is the wrong size.
;-)
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#92 aye_write: Were you ousted in a palace coup, or did you "resign" to pursue fresh interests? I'm going to be insufferable (again) here: you were not the chair of the committee, unless they sat on you. I might accept chairwoman, but never, ever, chair or chairperson. The most glamorous lady I knew in high position insisted on "chairman." Be assured, you will never meet anyone who loves women more than I do. I can live with Feminism very comfortably, but not politically correct nonsense.
As to the point, take a look at the current dominant figures in our groups. And that's only their public faces. It's one reason why I don't see a lot of point in changing systems of government. People never change.
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#93 Richard: Is there a glass there at all? If we are both seeing the same thing, albeit from different angles, the possibility is that it has the essence of a glass, therefore it probably is a glass.
Indeed, do we exist as the people we think we are, or are we but the perceptions of others? Penso ergo sum, or something of that essence.
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Sometimes it's useful to get a disinterested external view on our politics.
Does anyone know if there is any analysis of age-related voting patterns there?Alwyn ap Huw has an interesting perspective on Glenrothes.
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#95 brigadierjohn
I sincerely hope there is a glass, or else I shall be forced to take to the bottle.
I drink therefore I am.
http://www.savagechickens.com/2008/11/troll.html
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#96 oldnat: Interesting. Was it the parties or the pundits who were boozing - I saw it coming, if not the scale of it. I think the message for the Nats is: If 8000 people unexpectedly turn out to vote against you, you have more than your alcohol policies to reconsider.
One must asssume that Alwayn ap Huw is a Welsh Nat who formulated his theory, er, in the boozer.
I still think it was the financial crisis that sobered up the voters to reality.
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#98 brigadierjohn
Interesting idea. What was it about the financial crisis that made tory and lib-dem support collapse? My own view is that the young voters were thrown by not having AS on the ballot as he had had more exposure than the "official" SNP candidate.
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#97 Richard: Confession: I usually look at your links, because even when we disagree you express yourself sensibly and with humour, therefore would not direct me to any party political mince that can be immediately dismissed on a dozen other links.
I liked the chicken, and response No.2, But are you dismissing me as a troll?
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Brian
You are too hidebound in your thinking. Westminster is not always the best exemplar for things political.
There is no reason for Scotland not to have a Woolies (pick and mix) Bill; we have a "hung" Parliament and rather than have deals done in smoke-filled rooms to have all the options set out in Bills and the finality of the Act decided in the open by all of our elected representatives would be a great improvement. And if some stupidity gets enacted by say a tory + labour block vote then we know who to blame or if a sensible SNP ( I know - equally preposterous idea) policy is blocked by a lib-dem + green alliance ditto.
Woolies Bills, bring it on!
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#99 handclapping: Tory and Lib-Dem supporters probably joined Labour and the uncommited in a "Stop the SNP" mood. I doubt if many actively support Labour, but they feared for the future as AS vacillated pathetically in the face of a crisis he still doesn't understand.
Harder times are coming. AS will get another chance to convince us there's a uniquely tartan answer to saving the world.
What do you mean "he's put that forward already?" :-)
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94. response to brigadierjohn
Yes, awfully good - hee, hee!
Does 'Chair' with a capital 'C' not do for a shortened version of 'Chairman'? (or 'Chairwoman'?)?
Never thought about it in a 'PC' way - I don't dig that claptrap :-)
I'll bow to your greater knowledge. Same with with this point:
"People never change."
Except, while perhaps they don't, they do not have to allow themselves to be the type, (I think) you are describing, in the first place.
Part of my view is, as far as human traits are concerned, babies are born quite alright as the they are, and while they grow up the job of us parents is not to mess them up.
PS No coup (or assassination attempt!). I served two yearly terms then did not put myself forward for re-election for a third. I had to concede life was far too busy - then I had another baby!
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#100 brigadierjohn,
I was merely playing with words (in truth, I drink very little), and I know you're not a troll. Maybe I should have linked to this cartoon instead.
http://www.savagechickens.com/2005/05/glass-half-empty.html
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96 oldnat
"Does anyone know if there is any analysis of age-related voting patterns there?"
If there is a real analysis of it, it would be illegal because the ballot papers are supposed to be secret, although that is often not strictly true. It would certainly be possible to do the analysis if the polling booths marked off a copy of the register as ballot papers were issued, but I can see no evidence on the Electoral Commission website that such stats are actually gathered, but they do show some age analysis information based on traditional opinion polling.
Thanks for the Alwyn ap Huw link. I hadn't thought of the 18-21 drinking issue, but that certainly could have been a factor. As you may recall, I thought the SNP would have had the edge up to about 48% turnout, but young voters could have made the difference.
Brownedova and I are off on hols tomorrow, and I am forbidden to take my laptop - I am expecting serious withdrawal symptoms. When we get back in January, I am off again to some jungles and deserts for a while, so may be unable to post again before the Spring, so thank you all for your insights and TTFN.
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#103 aye_write: I like your positive, optimistic outlook. Don't be influenced by a tired old cynic like me.
Re "chair" - it's probably an age thing. I can remember the chairman's role being neutered by big women sporting lawnmower haircuts, big Babygrows, and Doc Martin boots. Wimpish Labour and trade union chairmen were too afraid to stand up to them, and the poison has gradually spread to infect even genteel playgroups in nice areas.
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All this triumphalism by Labour over their one good showing on the back of the particularly bad conditions in the UK - created by 'their man': is going to blow up in their faces sooner or later.
It always does, hence the talk of an early election to see if they can't sneak back in one last time.
Rest assured: the state of the country now is "hungover", we had the credit buzz and now a temporary lack of judgement has set in as we collectively hide under the covers and hope things aren't really as bad as they feel right now.
However, soon the country will be back on its feet, throwing away the bottle marked "Labour boom and bust" in disgust, and vowing never to be so stupid again!
Then Gordon can take his place in the pantheon of truly terrible PMs - your Neville Chamberlains, Ramsay McDonalds, Anthony Edens etc ... await the inclusion of another in their dungeon of historical horrors.
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#102 brigadierjohn
Gosh, I didn't know AS had already called for the forced repatriation of Gordon. I would not have expected such clear thinking in Bute House. 8-)
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/7769984.stm
'Labour MPs seek to defend Speaker'
Says it all really, he relied on partisanship to get into the post, looks like he intends to rely on the same to keep him there.
It is a disgrace the people in his constituency are not given a choice at the General Election ... I only hope the SNP, SSP and others on the ground have guts to run a strong campaign against him, as clearly these is no other way of removing this incompetent.
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87. The_Forfarian
"#83, Neil_Small147 wrote:
"Why can't politicians ever accept they can be wrong?"
Personally, I have greater confidence in conviction politicians..."
My thoughts are that a good political leader needs above all to have the right personality (sorry Gordie) and an ablity to sook up information from superior intellectuals around him/her and correctly interpret it. But the second part doen't work without the first.
Convinctions well communicated in a speech probably reach a lot more people than the most brilliant factual speech.
The way that the speaker seems unusually human then, has the ability to connect with the majority (and s/he will be forgiven some imperfections aswell).
The person requires charm to endear his/her convictions to those listening, but not too much (smarm - not sorry Tony!).
So that's the mode of delivery. Now for the message being sent out. Those obsessive fact gathering intellectuals are key. Their knowledge is the substance of the leader's campaign. They are usually smarter but lack the desire to lead in the limelight.
So, a good team, as long as they stay concentrated on the end goal and not on their egos. :-)
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105 Brownedov
Good holidays - and I hope you make it out alive!
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I think I'll tiptoe off for the night. Thanks to all for a civilised, well-mannered exchange. Looks like that won't continue now (107/9).
Happy holiday Brownedov.
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106. brigadierjohn
Funny!
So far my (extremely) cynical stage was as a teen.
Thanks, it's been interesting.
Cheers and good night.
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109. At 5:15pm on 07 Dec 2008, pattymkirkwood wrote:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/7769984.stm
'Labour MPs seek to defend Speaker'
------------------
I think you will find most MPs are very reluctant to oust the Speaker, mainly as it would reflect badly on Pariament.
Re the age analysis and new drinking age limit of 21. I think it would have swung a few votes. SNP are in danger of turning into nanny: eg 18 year old married soldier comes back from 6 months in Iraq, only to be told he cannot go for a drink in the pub with his family. Pathetic.
Most of the drinkers who cause problems buy out of the off-licence anyway since it is cheaper. And if they cannot buy it their mate will. This is a waste of legislation and money. They would be better putting the funds into education. Prevention is better than the cure.
As for Glenrothes, I think the SNP need to look at their leader. Bottom line is he was inconsistent, even if it was in response to changing issues. He should have chosen one course and stuck to it. In essence he was like Gordon, reactionary, and whatever your views you have to admit Gordon came out better.
107. At 5:10pm on 07 Dec 2008, pattymkirkwood wrote:
All this triumphalism by Labour over their one good showing on the back of the particularly bad conditions in the UK - created by 'their man': is going to blow up in their faces sooner or later.
---------
He won't sneak back in, certainly not in England. But I don't think Labour will be wiped out in Scotland either. Voters in most areas have a choice between Mr Grumpy Gordon or Mr Smug Salmond. While I think the SNP will increase their Westminster MPs, this may make them a touch arrogant before the next Scottish elections.
But who knows? Maybe Jack wil come back.
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#109 pattymkirkwood
"Says it all really, he relied on partisanship to get into the post, looks like he intends to rely on the same to keep him there."
Very much so, but the SNP did run against him in 2005 and came 2nd, needing nearly 18% swing to get rid of him. I posted a couple of now media links this morning on the end of the The Speaker speaks thread, but the BBC page this morning had a much less positive spin on it.
OTOH, II can't see how having "government" support could do other than confirm he's a partisan placeman.
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#111 aye_write
Thanks and good posting in the meantime.
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No 96:
I know of one freedom of information request regarding Glenrothes.
The request involves the postal vote totals for this by-election and the general election.
The request was made around mid November and though acknowledged it hasn't yet resulted in an aswer.
Don't know if this is typical of such requests but I for one will be interested to see the totals.
For what it's worth my own feeling is that Glenrothes saw Lib Dem and Tory voters opting for Labour in an attempt at keeping the SNP out.
I feel that there was indeed significant movement from Labour to the SNP but that it was masked by the tactical voting.
How else can you explain an increase in support for Labour when the actual turnout dropped?
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#88 gt-cri
"I see some, like myself will suffer short-term hardship for the greater-good. Now that's the face of Nationalism we seek to forward!"
We are one of the households who will lose out 'for the greater good.', which is OK, but...
...I'd advise that we look after our high rate tax payers, by heeding the sentiments in post #70, BrianSH, in A 'very bad thing indeed' from some days ago. That's not a face of nationalism we want to forward.
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#101 handclapping
Some of the consequences of Woolies Bills might be interesting.
Less legislation; Acts are going to take a lot longer to pass.
Greater definition between political and executive skills. You may have fifty seven different varieties of policy on, say, immigration and the gift of the gab but that will not necessarily make you able to administer the requirements of the Act that eventually transpired from its Woolies Bill.
The executive competence of the civil service will be in the spotlight, with less "need" for their minister to back them.
More Acts will pass that deal with matters of importance to voters and less that just give powers to Ministers to meddle in our lives.
I'm unsure as to whether such a change makes Ministers / the Government less or more relevant. Good Ministers will be better managers but as the policy will have been decided by Parliament they won't need so many spin doctors and political advisers at our expense.
Life in Scotland could be different; I won't say interesting in case of old Chinese proverbs coming home to roost!
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Brian
Just when Calman has said we are no different from the "British", our pretendy wee Parliament comes up with this!
Congratulations to all the MSPs from the unionist parties who voted for it. Could it work in a "hung" Westminster? Is someone paving the way against the possibility?
"Vive la difference" as our historic allies would say.
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#83 Neil_Small147
re "business plan"
Calman says we do 70% of out business with the other members of the British Union.
You do not need a Mr Soutar to tell you your business is in jeopardy if you rely on one customer for more than 33% of your turnover.
It would suggest that we should join the euro and try and recreate the old trading links to Scandinavia, the Hanse and Low Countries. I'm sure there will be others from the East coast who will find Dutch and German ancestors if they get back far enough. Rosyth to Zeebrugge anyone?
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#112, Brigadier ... actually having something to say about the issues of the day should not be dismissed as 'uncivilized'. It may hurt your sensibilities to hear it, but Michael Martin is a disgrace to the role he holds, and the city he supposedly represents.
# 114, Neil - I don't think ousting the speaker would reflect badly on parliament ... I think the current speaker reflects badly on parliament, by his very presence.
The reason for me why nothing will come of this is because Martin has the power to 'name' members in the chamber (banishing them for days at a time), the power to choose not to let the 'offending' members speak, and Labour whips at his back enforcing partisan discipline to ensure he stays.
PS - I don't think Labour will face anything approaching a landslide defeat in Scotland, something more like a 50/50 split is likely if all know in advance Labour will lose England and the Government first. Then there is the matter of the Lib Dems too, it seems to me - barring dramatic change - the next general election could be a very painful experience for them, both in Scotland and the South-West!
# 115, Brownedov - thanks for the reply. I knew they had run last time, but next time there should be a good chance of ousting him democratically, especially when he inevitably escapes all the current furore.
You're right about 'government support', but that is not even how it is going to be represented subsequently 'Labour MPs' (as if they are acting independently), then the opponents will be branded 'rebel MPs' normalizing all those passively doing next to nothing. Give it another 5 days and the fuss will be over, as some huge new event will dominate the political landscape (hopefully nothing too catastrophic financially).
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#116 Brownedov
Have a good holiday.
I'm off to the USA for Xmas, New Year and the Inauguration - though since we'll be leaving Washington before the latter, I won't get a chance to dance with Michelle!
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#112 brigadierjohn
#123 oldnat
Thanks - hope you both and all who blog here have a good new year.
Back in 2009, I hope.
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Oor cooncil by-election
Polling day is on Thursday, and there is a frenzy of apathy in both wee towns which make up the ward.
The SNP and Labour have both selected locals - one from each town, so relative (lack of) turn out between the towns will most likely determine the result.
Both Tories and Lib-Dems have selected people who have recently moved to the area (they happen to come from England, but that's less important than that they're incomers) - they may get a vote or two from other incomers.
(Incomers = those with less than three generations here)
No doubt one party will claim a massive victory - aye right!
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Have a good break put speakers on
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125
Kilbirnie and Beith, oldnat?
(OMG!)
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#127 aye_write
Thank you. Saved us all a lot of effort.
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129
You're welcome!
(Wouldn't want to be the only saddo!)
I'm amazed oldnat has any interest left in politics if that is his patch! - I mean that endearingly ;-D
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#127 aye_write
Correct (though we'll have less implied sneering, thank you very much!)
We have the finest Renaissance Kirk in Scotland here (and an SNP MSP!)
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#129 aye_write
OK that's it!
When I post my Hogmanay Greeting here, it doesn't apply to you.
:-)
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130 oldnat
Yep, and ace fried half pizza suppers aswell!
;-)
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131 oldnat
(Ah, like old times... disappointing the teachers)
Sorry, sorry, too ready to chuckle - is hubby's neck of the woods, or 'God's country' as he likes to call it.
Actually, I'll give you it's an amazing place! :-) :-)
And the SNP MSP - a triumph!
I'm not laughing. (I'm not.)
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PS (To all folks who hail from that neck of the woods) only kidding.
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#133 aye_write
Since you had the good sense to marry an Ayrshire man, you're forgiven.
Consider yourself included again at Hogmanay.
To marginally more important matters, the Herald is clearly taking its stories straight off the wires, now that it's sacked all its journalists.
Look at this one on Brown getting the belt at KHS and the journalist needs to explain that the "belt, a once widely used alternative to the cane before corporal punishment was banned in schools."
Death of a fine paper, methinks. Who's going to read this trash.
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#130 oldnat
I see from wiki you've been there since the Bronze Age. crannog to computer. You're surely not that old or was it whilom rather than temporal.
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#136 handclapping
Not that old!
Mind you, I remember seeing the Romans as they passed through, when I was a boy.
They weren't welcome, however, till they came back last century with pizza and ice cream.
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#135 oldnat
They are trying to portray him as human not vulcan but they have nothing more recent that could possibly give the lie!
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#137 oldnat
Terrible how the centuries just flash by as you get older. The hokey-pokey man was the century before last.
Time for bed; I'm sorry if my Woolies Bills put a damper on the craic.
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#139 handclapping
"The hokey-pokey man was the century before last. "
I thought that was only in really advanced places like Saltcoats!
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# 135. oldnat
Phew! I like Hogmanay - and Scotland the What (and Jacqui Bird - she's afa funny an a').
Better sign off. Goodnight.
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Heres a very revealing article in the Telegraph.
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#142 Roll_On_2010
Do you think the Labour have a death wish?
They showed the SNP how to run a negative campaign in Glenrothes and I expect the SNP to be bright enough to have learnt from that. Glasgow NW would be a massacre at a bye election and probably close at a General Election. Talk about taking the electorate for fools.
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re #143
Sorry, Glasgow North East. Robertson's North West
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If I wrote what I think about NuLabour it would not get past the Mods.
I come from South of your borders and don't especially love the Tories but I hate NuLabour.
When I retire in 5 - 6 years I will be emigrating - to Scotland.
Hopefully, by then, Scotland will have thrown of the shackles of the last 40 years or so.
Westmidden needs a complete overhaul, from top to bottom, but I cannot see that happening in my lifetime, unfortunately.
NuLabour have taken the electorate for fools for the last 11 years, so this latest screw-up is nothing new, and even less - surprising.
Slainte Mhath!
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#135. oldnat
(Feel obliged to qualify earlier idiotic remarks.)
Re your local election, it will be interesting to see what results from it. For there to be such a vast difference in outlook, generally speaking, between down your way and where I come from I genuinely think is fascinating.
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Foulkes accuses BBC Scotland of ?institutional nationalism?
"An SNP spokesman added: ?This is a tired and emotional attack on the professionalism and integrity of BBC Scotland. George Foulkes is always a figure of fun, especially at Christmas time."
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Just seen this from the BBC webpage in a report on the HBOS court case brought by MAG.
The article states:
"The Competition Appeal Tribunal will consider whether the government was right to bypass competition concerns in allowing HBOS to be rescued."
Note the 'HBOS to be rescued' wording !!
This is completely unacceptable, rescuing HBOS is/was possible without forcing through this takeover.
The case is about whether the Government broke the law in it's handling of this engineered takeover.
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The Herald headlines the story of Broon and the tawse and fills a little column below it with a little report of the SNP Government's latest scheme to give financial help to people in mortgage difficulties.
Priorities, eh?
Is there nothing, no matter how banal or no matter how lacking it is in any form of political content that Lorna Broon will not stoop to in his effort to get the dafties to vote for him?
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#91 brigadierjohn wrote:
#88 gt-cri: I like your post. It builds into a latter-day Gettysburg Address, a dream or a vision. Perhaps more appropriately, it reminded me of the toe-curling conclusion to the dreadful Braveheart, when Bruce comically paraphrases Scots Wha Hae: "You have bled with Wallace, will you now bleed with me?"
I can just see Wee Eck in Holyrood: "You have bled with Labour, and you'll damned well bleed with me." Not a good slogan!
Myself? I have a great reluctance to bleed for or with anyone. And my time is too short now to be tholing any "temporary" hardships in the name of faux patriotism.
I'm not delusional, or a dreamer! Building a truely independent nation shall be difficult; even starting from here. What I am prepared to "suffer" is the to-ing and fro-ing of opinion on the best way forward and the (in my belief) increased costs to the tax-payer involved with setting-up our new systems and procedures, to borrow neil_small's words.
#118 aye_write:
Your reference to BrianSH's post is relevant. However, you cannot create or build on what we have by maintaining the present levels of taxation. Couple that to the need to accept a fair-share of UK debt and we shall be too impoverished to maintain what we take with us! I am a project-manager; I've never completed a project without spending money. Hopefully, the return on your investment justifies the risk but if we are to pay the interest on borrowing and maintain services plus create new systems previously dealt with by Westminster, we shall need to raise revenue to do so.
The "vision" or "dream" is what we all move towards, isn't it? Either that, or we stagnate, like poor old Brigadier; awaiting the reaper's call!
I'd prefer to be less self-centred and contribute to the future after I also shuffle-off my mortal coil!
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#150 gt-cri
Apologies for seeming like I was disagreeing with your post - actually I liked it.
Mine was one I threw in because I think there is a significant section of the voting public who are contemptous (?) of higher rate tax payers, thinking they have not the right to criticise the tax system because they earn so much money that it shouldn't even matter to them.
I think that's dangerous because it's destructive in the context of returning to sovereign nation status - as you say, we need the investment.
I'd say they have possibly more right to pass comment as they've invested more in it and so are perhaps more entitled to be critical if it doesn't perform.
Anyway, your project manager vision sits well with me - I llike this type of common sense approach to recreating Scotland. It makes the extra taxes we'd pay seem worth it now (though we'd still have accepted paying them if it appeased others into voting for independence, but now I see it would be of relevant practical use).
I too share your confidence that there are enough sensible thinkers out there, yourself included, to meet the challenges and solve the dilemmas that the independence process will bring.
Although I laughed along with brigadierjohn's scenes of a malfunctioning debate (#91) I'm not convinced things would have to turn that sour. Maybe it's true for political parties but I'd be inclined to include members of the public like you i.e. practical businessmen/women etc.
Rather than a misery, I see it as an opportunity.
Do you think Neil_Small's insistence on some kind of grand business plan up front, so we can formulate a blueprint for an independent scotland and see what we need to be concentrating on (with regard to the new systems you mention, and Neil's in #65) is a helpful point? It seems to me that it is going to have to be done at some time?? (re my #81 - plus can't believe it hasn't already been?)
I don't supply the business knowledge only the confidence that others have got it!
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#151 aye_write,
Thanks for clarifying.
Indeed, I agree that most people do not understand, let alone realise how our tax-system works. BrianSH put it remarkarbly well, I couldn't hope to emulate his description.
My feelings are that we should all pay more tax but it would go into a pot which would be distributed to less recipients; for example, we currently cannot hope to provide aid for other nations, while we lament the state of our own. If it was a business, it would be long-gone. Same as higher-rate tax-payers; most do not have enough to disappear abroad. The ones who do have already gone and good-luck to them!
In business, philanthropy or charity comes after a level of success has been reached, not when making the success happen; failed-businesses cannot help anyone.
As far as Neil's business-plan goes, we would have had to rip-up the 2007 draft and revise it for 2008! It's impossible to predict how Scotland shall grow, because we have all the population as "share-holders" and some political parties, with big share-holdings, are determined to make the company go bust, to prove their own business-plan is more sound!
If the SNP could predict the 2011 election results, they could draft their plan now. As could Labour or anyone else. However, the plan shall only have relevance once the decision has been made to start the company in the first place. We are not there yet.
To be honest, while brigadier has his own interests at heart, Neil has his worries over the integrity of any politician, North Highlander has his concerns over the central-belt bias and Re*****nt-E***t (never say his name, or he shall grow stronger!) tells us we are too poor and subsidised to do it, we haven't a hope of getting to the stage where a plan is warranted!
All we can hope for is a majority of sensible people with no hidden-agendas to be big enough to say Yes, we can do it and Yes, we shall commit to doing it and Yes, we shall decide how we do it, not the other way round! Then the hard-work shall start!
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Always remember that all the problems an independent Scotland might face and that are trotted out here as arguments against independence are the same problems that independent countries of all sizes face and deal with as a matter of course every day of the week.
There is no useful point in debating with people who believe that the Scots are uniquely stupid and uniquely incapable of doing exactly the same.
A basic history of the Scots unparallelled contibution to advance in this world demolishes that position.
Reading some of the stuff that surfaces on these bloggs I am rapidly arriving at the opinion that the banality and puerility of most unionist arguments probably mirrors pretty accurately the mental capacity of those who advance them.
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#152. gt-cri
Thank you.
(I realise I'm sad, but) That was very interesting. I hope you don't mind if I just sum up.
It feels like I'm back where I started (re my earlier rather cold posts), although certainly more enlightened.
"As far as Neil's business-plan goes..."
Unfortunately, I have never succeeded in persuading anyone with Neil's worries, with my similar to yours 'we can't know this until the time comes' argument, so it bothers me. They can't accept the inherent flexibility of it all? (Maybe the SNP could remind us a bit more that they aren't ignoring this.)
As, ultimately there is no getting away from the fact that choosing independence, by it's very nature, has to be a partial leap of faith, it's hard not to feel that those who don't want to leap are in a sense letting everyone down - not a successful argument for persuading them either!
So, if persuasion with arguments isn't going to work, then maybe a psychological approach is better. (I think maybe there are Scots who need to feel empowered with a new air of confidence before they will step away from the safety of their pro-status quo arguments?)
I mean a subtle rebranding of the country in it's population's eyes where Scots become aware of their abilities. Could we do with a high-profile, endearing figure who could captivate Scots and make them want what he/she wants? Helped by some cool and groovy Scots promoting independence in the media. Some sort of shift like that anyway would be good...
Naturally this is awkward to quantify. I don't think politics is so rational that a tide of hysteria couldn't influence it. I'd be inclinded to try and take advantage of that, especially since we are up against such odds. Perhaps in the depths of the finantial crisis, such a charismatic 'saviour' figure will appear (evolve?) and tap in to the hopes for better of the suffering electorate.
"To be honest, while brigadier has his own interests at heart, Neil has his worries over the integrity of any politician, North Highlander has his concerns over the central-belt bias and Re*****nt-E***t (never say his name, or he shall grow stronger!) tells us we are too poor and subsidised to do it, we haven't a hope of getting to the stage where a plan is warranted!"
Well, I sympathise, but is that not just 'a challenge'?!! (mischievious)
:-)
(As a general asside) I used to think I/we/whoever would never defeat those views, but (in my old age!) I now hold the opinion that it will never be achieved if I think it won't be. There is no prior expectation of success here so the risks of failure have been removed. So rather, without that stress, it is relatively easy to keep plugging away and not give up (not inferring you would). I think is amazing what can be achieved this way. We are not alone after all and it only takes one person to start a change.
To all, keep voting! :-)
As I said in one of my earlier posts, I believe a lot of it comes down to the main player(s)'s personality - in other words, fates can be controlled, won and lost, within the hands of a leader with the right qualities, not least of which is that he/she should be enrearing to the electorate (v. important). I'm not sure any party has this!
If we keep talking about, it will become cool eventually? (Hope.)
- Back to another of my earlier posts, "I wait, and wait."
Thanks for your thoughts anyway. The smart people of a country are its real assets. (In the future will our children wonder what on earth Scotland was worried about?)
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#151 aye_write & #152 gt-cri
Yes you're both right, but 75% of the Greenlanders voted for Home Rule in their recent referendum. We need to build on those aspects which make Scotland more cohesive as a nation, before we have a chance of bringing more people onto the Nationalist side of the argument.
I see no reason to limit ourselves to only one referendum, but to use the process of referenda to allow Scotland to build that cohesion.
For example, Referendum 1 could draw on the 1989 Claim of Right which only the Tories and the SNP are not signed up to (but the SNP would agree with).
Q1 "We, the Scottish people, do hereby acknowledge the sovereign right of the Scottish people to determine the form of Government best suited to our needs."
Do you agree? Yes/No
Q2 "We, the Scottish people, declare that no Parliament, or other form of government shall exercise sovereignty over us."
Do you agree? Yes/No
Q2 "We, the Scottish people, instruct the Scottish Parliament to establish a Commission to examine all suggested relationships between Scotland and other European nations, so that we may make a more informed choice"
Do you agree? Yes/No
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#155 oldnat
What knowledge.
If I am typical of most ordinary Scots voters, it is amazing how much of this stuff isn't really known.
Assuming it's as important as my cursory glance on a website suggests, then I should've known?
Could we not take a leaf out of the Obama camp's book, and have really effective information distribution via the internet - collate all the information already out there on web sites and promote it so that households cannot so easily miss what they ought to know? Most don't have the time or the inclination to seek it out.
Assuming the SNP is well aware of what you posted, either they are keeping it up their sleeve or have dismissed it? If the latter, there must be a reason why, it would it be worth sussing to establish if they were right. (I'd guess you can already say.)
Well, I'm sure the better informed out there will know this better than me, so I'll leave you to it.
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aye_write is aye right.
It's the smart people who will deliver for Scotland.
This is why the Labour Party and its associated minions in the likes of the Record aim their arguments continually for the lowest common denominator. It is increasingly becoming the case that the slow of thinking make up most of the support they have left.
How sad that the once respected Scotsman is in the same market now.
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#157 sneckedagain
Cool :->
You raise a good point. I recognise the frustration with the readers of the Record and admit to intermittent feelings of hostility, but I can't keep them up.
- I'd finished here to go and do a lot of reading about oldnat's post* as listening to smart people can leave you feeling distinctly un-smart! However, I'll just add...
*[It seems the wording of the (final) independence referendum has to be very unambigous to stand under international law.]
...if you transported most of the people of Aberdeenshire who wouldn't waiver from voting for Alex Salmond, to a die hard Labour area, swapping their experiences and upbringings, they would probably all vote Labour.
Plus we could well need their vote.
That is not a pessimistic view which exonerates these voters or pretends they have no responsibility, nor do I sympathise. I think they can all think and are capable of being persuaded, though not all are open to persuasion - it's not usual for ordinary folk to possess such confidence in a bold approach, as politicians do.
But random happenings, in events at home and abroad, can bring about a change in such things. And if ever there was a period of change it is right now.
Finally, it was intriguing to see another poster advancing the idea of a pro-independence newspaper. Good, as long as its circulation never starts to fall! Highlights the advantage of a sure and steady grip on information handling through the media though, very much including the internet.
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#155-#158
Chuffed to see the sensible people are taking this on! For me, it can become emotional on occasion and I can become cynical with some (it wasn't a challenge, aye-write, merely resignation)!
I always fall back on some song lyrics written about the Scottish situation, a few years back:
"Like our fathers before us; we've eyes for America.
Dream of a new life; on foreign shores.
Wherever we go, we will also know
That the land we stand on, is never our own."
Kudos to whoever can identify the poet/lyricist!
As for the daily record readers, as for any news-source, I can only request that they check the same story for another source and strike a balance for themselves.
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gt-cri
Fish?!
I googled it.
Get yoursel' some Green Day!
;-)
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aye_write
Got them too- good to embarass the kids with! They don't write the poignant stuff, tho'!
Went through my teens with Fish/Marillion.....very dark!!! ;-0
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161
(Laugh) I feel your pain man!
Tho' I can't pass judgement, having done self-obsessed, angst-ridden teenage years, under the stablising influence of Bob Dylan!
But on a serious note (last one honest), when you mentioned 'resignation' it reminded me that I suspect a great number of supporters of independence live with a resigned feeling (not you particularly).
Whether it has something to do with the '79 dissapointment I'm not sure. But I think I can remember an air of disillusionment around that time. It's probably one of the reasons I've such a fire in my belly now about it - if you want to affect someone, imprint their brain as a young child. I've no choice!
So, it would be great if circumstances conspired to reinvigorate these voters - with gravitas and finesse (one would hope), they'd again promote the word and all that.
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158
I do not believe there is a great deal of principled opposition to independence among Labour voters. That is why there is continued fierce opposition to a referendum.
Polls have indicated a potential majority for independence among Labour and Libdem voters (though LibDem support level is so low and so inconsistent it is not wise to extrapolate anything from it but its unreliability)
There is a not inconsiderable level of support for independence among Tory supporters (up to 20%).
Until we have an independence campaign leading up to an independence referendum we will have no accurate picture on this issue
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163
Goody - there's always plenty hope.
A independence campaign would be a great opportunity. Campaigns can turn out disasterous, but also they can be potentially marvellous - I'd love to see that.
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#162-#164
Although in '79 I was only a loon, I remember the debate between my parents and their friends. My parents were SNP, most of the others weren't.
I would like to think most of the Labour (for there were no Tories or Liberals) supporters have kicked themselves since then, as it would have been an even better opportunity. Hindsight is 20-20, as they say.
I have been through the peaks and troughs since I became able to vote. Although not a member of the SNP until recently, always a supporter; purely because they are the only vehicle to independence.
Perhaps a lot of Unionists are unaware of the difference; they see the SNP as the only show in town in an independent Scotland. I believe it would not be so. The way our Parliament is set-up, there would always be a strong opposition and many more parties would spring-up, merge and form coallitions with whoever was close enough to their own views.
In short, a far better way than Westminster and an end to the "big-two" way that Westminster has been mired in for many years.
But, the campaign you mention would be very party-political, unless there is a way to bring the people which sneckedagain mentions together.
Imagine! A cross-party movement for Independence, transcending the parties policies and focussing on a single-issue and how it can be done!
There's a business plan! Now, how do we bring that about? I know, have a referendum! I suspect Eck has considered this and it's part of his spread-bet!
Many thanks for the posts, you two. I seems the rest have moved-on!
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165
Agreed, agreed etc.
(We must be ages, I was born in 74.)
'Loon' - send my regards to Auchterturra :-)
TTFN
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165
There is a cross party organisation promoting Independence. It is called the Independence Convention. It includes SNP,Labour, LibDem, SSP, Greens and Solidarity members and a number of persons with no evident political connection. It is chaired by Elaine C Smith (who followed Murray Ritchie into that position) and meets, usually monthly, in Edinburgh. It is presently putting together a petition in favour of the Independence Referendum. I suspect it is getting very little assistance from the "Scottish " media but its time will come as we approach a referendum. It has an interesting website.
The actual fault line in Scottish politics is not betweeen the unionist Parties and the SNP. It lies in the Labour Party and the very large percentage of its support which would vote for Independence.
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Sneckedagain,
Thanks for the Convention-mention! I did know of it's existence. Haven't had a look at the website until now though.
That wasn't exactly what I meant....I was thinking more of an organisation to look into the fundamentals of Independence ie the day-to-day stuff like how much to set-up our own tax-collection, defence, border-control etc etc. Then we could see exactly what the costs vs gains were, as in aye_write's earlier posts. Perhaps more of a think-tank/research body with some experts hired to audit the findings?
#166!
Not a north-easter by birth but around for long enough to learn the language! I predate you by just about four years and didn't hear Bob Dylan in my pram- more like Johnny Cash and Buddy Holly!
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168 gt-cri (old fart - grin!)
My Dad would approve! (Slim Whitman at all?)
I'm going to post my latest musings on this subject on Brian's newest blog, as we probably should rejoin the body o' the kirk! :-)
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Sneckedagain, you are resorting once again to exaggeration:
You claim....
163: "Polls have indicated a potential majority for independence among Labour and Libdem voters (though LibDem support level is so low and so inconsistent it is not wise to extrapolate anything from it but its unreliability)
There is a not inconsiderable level of support for independence among Tory supporters (up to 20%). "
165: "It lies in the Labour Party and the very large percentage of its support which would vote for Independence."
While polls actually show that....
Support for independence among Labour voters is around 12-15% (with ~75% against), a very similar level to those against independence among SNP voters.
Support for independence among Conservative voters is around 10-14% (~76% against).
Among LD voters, support for independence is 18-22% (~65% against).
Feel free to check for yourself.
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168
Did somebody say Buddy Holly. The music died 50 years ago on the 3rd of February 1959
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RE
I have checked for myself with a poll of over 25,000 people in a fairly typical Scottish Constituency and the results I posted are exactly as we found them. You do realise, do you, that even the ridiculously low figures you suggest would produce a narrow yes vote in a straight referendum?
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GG, please give all my best to your family.
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I see Labour keeping up its doomed campaign against the SNP intention to bring in LIT.
This is very encouraging as it means two things.
1. Labour recognises how popular this policy is.
2. Labour doesn't understand that attacking a popular and sensible policy does them more harm than it does the SNP
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