Going out with a whimper
Is that it then? No more a bank, just a whimper.
Three hundred years of Scottish financial history brought to a stammering close in a Birmingham convention centre.
That is indeed one way of looking at developments. More prosaically, one might say that the Bank of Scotland vanished as a distinct entity when it chose to merge with the erstwhile building society from Halifax.
More bluntly still, one might say that the centuries-old solidity that was the Bank has not been seen these many years amid the new era adventurism that has now so dismally failed.
Instead of striding the waves, the buccaneers of finance are lying, limp and plaintive, on the rocks.
To the point, Scotland has lost a headquarters organisation, albeit one whose sense of Scottish control had already been diluted. That is to be regretted; the full impact yet to be witnessed.
However, perhaps we might take a lead from the first minister who, while arguing for a level playing field with regard to HBOS, has repeatedly stressed the honourable intent and history of Lloyds TSB.
Perhaps we might take comfort from the announcement that the Bank of Scotland brand is to be retained; a shell, perhaps, but still an outward sign.
Perhaps it might now be feasible to mount a renewed case for the retention of some headquarters-style functions in Edinburgh.
Perhaps. Perhaps this was all inevitable. Perhaps there was, literally, no alternative. Perhaps the merged bank will, ultimately, thrive.
One can but hope.
I'm 
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~54~RS~)
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The Bank is dead, for the sake of the savers, investors and employees long live the Bank, as for the politicians and financial wizards who paved this particular road .....they can go to .....
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Chin up, Brian. The last thing we need is more sentimentalism.
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Perhaps the people of Scotland could start a new bank one that returns to the basic principles of sound banking rather than a badly run betting firm which all the banks it would appear have been doing.
I for one would bank with them and i'm English.
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With this level of write-offs when the downturn has only just started, we're lucky that LloydsTSB were pushed into "rescuing" HBOS. As a stand alone bank, HBOS was already a lost cause and what the SNP were doing in trying to save it from Lloyds remains nothing other than mischief making. What we need now is for the First Minister to produce a blueprint for the way forward and to rebuild the potential that Scotland may still have in financial services. Otherwise, the rebuilding and recapitalising of institutions will remain firmly centred in London.
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#3-AqualungCumbria,
Hear-Hear! As a customer of a dead bank, I'll be seeking to take my over-draft elsewhere!
It may have been diluted but it had the feel of a Scottish institution, so the marketing dept at HBOS did a good job!
#2- Anaxim
No, what we need to do is look at the entire debacle closely and ensure it does not happen in the future. If that means a strictly non-sexy, boring business plan for any new or existing banks then so be it.
Trust and sure-footedness is preferential to huge climbs, followed by big-falls; sometimes fatal.
I shall also reflect on what could/should have been, thank you very much.
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#4 corporationtax:
LloydsTSB were not pushed; they had discussions with HBOS before the politicians were involved and they did not "rescue"; they merged!
Anyway, who started the mischief? Not the SNP but the LIb-Dems. As previously highlighted in earlier Brian's Blogs, the FM walked the line, like most politicians with any sense would!
Try checking the facts first before twisting the debate.
Bye
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And specially for aye-write ? the Ayrshire by-election results
East Ayrshire : Ballochmyle (Mauchline, Auchinleck, Muirkirk)
(previously 3 Lab, 1 SNP : reason for by-election ? resignation of Lab member)
Turnout ? 29.1%
Result
L.D, __93, __x
Sol, _243, _+5, ___x
Con, _273, +17, _+18
SNP, 1129, +31, +101
Lab, 1598, +19, _+58, elected
North Ayrshire : Kilbirnie and Beith
(previously 1 SNP, 1 Lab, 1 Ind : reason for by-election ? death of SNP member)
Turnout ? 24.98%
Result
SWP, __68, __x
L.D, __94, +10, __x
Con, 322, _+2, +18
Lab, _939, +17, +16
SNP, 1363, +17, +35, elected
I doubt if the fate of HBOS figured much in any of the voters calculations - especially among those socialists whose 2nd preference vote went to the Tories. Local politics is a wondrous thing!
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#4 I think you'll find the real mischief making started some years ago within the Labour government and within the banking sector through what could be considered as criminally negligent financial controls.
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#5 gt-cri
Examining the remains for clues isn't sentimentalism. Entering an extended period of mourning for three centuries of Scottish financial history is. It's just a bank.
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in other news the world is doomed. Oh wait, that was hbos. still, same thing apparently.
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Bottom line is that the shareholders voted in favour. No Labour conspiracy.
#8 InMyKip you make a fair point. But then what did Alex Salmond and everyone else say at the time about the lack of regulation?
#3 Aqualung Cumbria
Start a new bank? With what? And why?
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#11 see #1
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No 11 Small Neil.
You have got the timeline the wrong way round!!
Government (Brown/Darling) say:
'THIS IS the deal'
Major (English) shareholders fall in line immediately; reluctants are drawn in line one by one.
Political expediency wins the day!!
Nae conspiracy at all.
It was all planned by B/D when the opportunity arose!
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I have closed my Bank of Scotland accounts today in protest at the Lloyds takeover.
I suspect that I will be just one of many to do so.
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2. Anaxim
"Chin up, Brian. The last thing we need is more sentimentalism."
Actually I like Brian's sentamentalist (!) sentiments. He's one of my favourite writers for the way he collects his words together like a pleasing array of musical notes.
I disagree Anaxim.
It's humbling to strip away the peripheral nonsence surrounding an argument and stand and 'nakedly' embrace what's left, the point. This is a good time to confront honesty and combine it with sentimemtality. As afterwards you are rewarded with the clarity of vision to see what's to be done next, without the baggage you once had.
It is sad what's happened with BOS (HBOS) but if the name is retained then, as more twists and turns are certainly certain, who knows what possibilities may appear in the future for it to rise from the ashes - interesting, in the long term. (I'm sure this notion is about to be crushed by some of you.)
With independence 'looming' I'm sure it will not be forgotten about forever.
PS Their customer service once stank, so hey-ho, there you go. Look to the future, look to the future.
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Nationalise all the banks - They have been caught out playing 'fast and loose' with our money, yet they get away with it? Scandalous!
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#14 minuend
Well done, the Bank of China must be waiting eagerly on the flood of Scot Nat savers beating a path to their door ;-)
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16. SortedVFR wrote:
"Nationalise all the banks"
Absolutely. the utilities too.
And take a very active direction in making them work for ordinary people. I am absolutely puking that Labour is using my money to finance these scumbags.
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brown the chancer gets his wish.
HBOS gone and the Nat west group aka RBS now owned by the government another part of his master-plan falls in to place.
i will do whatever it takes to keep the union the traitor said and that is exactly what he is doing.
the opportunity to do this landed on his lap and the chancer that he is just could not resist.
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14. The beginning of the end for the new 'Bank of Scotland' before it even opens?
Well, I'll certainly be keeping my savings there.
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19. Astonishing. The nationalists really do believe everything revolves around them!
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167. At 11:04am on 12 Dec 2008, sneckedagain, from Brian's 'Pick and mix not on the Bill'
"There is a cross party organisation promoting Independence. It is called the Independence Convention. It includes SNP,Labour, LibDem, SSP, Greens and Solidarity members and a number of persons with no evident political connection. It is chaired by Elaine C Smith (who followed Murray Ritchie into that position) and meets, usually monthly, in Edinburgh. It is presently putting together a petition in favour of the Independence Referendum. I suspect it is getting very little assistance from the "Scottish " media but its time will come as we approach a referendum. It has an interesting website.
The actual fault line in Scottish politics is not betweeen the unionist Parties and the SNP. It lies in the Labour Party and the very large percentage of its support which would vote for Independence."
-------
Funny, someone is already doing roughly what I'd been stumbling towards in my earlier suggestions! (Silly me.)
It seems a good site, at first glance. But a few points:
1. I didn't know about it. I'm not the most educated or informed person on the planet you say. That's the point, most people aren't and don't have the time to be. So, those behind the site need to use the net (facebook, e-mail?) to make the important information 'travel' to the masses.
2. Elaine C Smith is involved. Good, I said cool media-friendly personalities are a great plus. More sexy males or females wouldn't go amiss.
3. The site itself is respectably presented but it would take someone interested in reading about the subject to bother to plough through the neat rows of small blue writing = preaching to the converted?
Best to strip the element of effort down to the minimum and have big bold logos with enticing phrases like "but can we really affort it?' (or something better!) on the home page so it's instantaneous for people to become ingaged in the debate.
Plus add little video clips and keep it up to date with all the surrounding news.
Let the anti-indpendence message go for its life in the press. I'm not sure it's such a great tool as it once was.
On the thread (!), if there is latent sentamentalism over the loss of HBOS, becoming involved on the web like I say, could be a way for those 'suffering' to alleviate these woes and so also a way for them to becomed soaked up by the independence campaign - I'm just thinking we need to get in touch with ordinary voters??
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21. Reluctant-Expat
Psst, the more grumpier you get, the more I like you!
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7. oldnat
You do not disappoint, ye fount of all electoral knowledge!
I was really wanting to know if they had a swingometer ;-)
Seriously, I can't quite figure out the figures(!):
'Sol, _243, _+5, ___x'
means Solidarity (?) got 243 votes, up 5% on last time and 'x' is the percentage change from time before and there aren't any figures for it??
So basically, one SNP and one Labour member got in = no change?!
Quite funny.
Was it elections to the local council?Why did the Labour mannie (assuming) resign?
You aren't sad enough to reply = I'll read up!
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23. aye_write
"21. Reluctant-Expat
Psst, the more grumpier you get, the more I like you!"
Be careful aye_write, I may be wrong, he might actually be in the pay of satan!
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25. irnbru_addict
"Be careful aye_write, I may be wrong, he might actually be in the pay of satan!"
Yes, but I am a woman :-D
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#24 aye_write
How could I be so discourteous as not to reply?
Sorry the table wasn't clear. I should have put headings.
The columns are
Party,
1st Pref votes,
redistributed votes of bottom candidate
redistributed votes of 2nd bottom candidate
SWP, __68, __x
L.D, __94, +10, __x
Con, 322, _+2, +18
Lab, _939, +17, +16
SNP, 1363, +17, +35, elected
So the Socialist Worker's votes (underneath his "x") went 10 to LD, 2 to Con, 17, to Lab, 17 to SNP. Similarly the next column shows the redistributed LD votes.
The ex-Labour group leader in East Ayrshire resigned saying ?Circumstances change and I have a number of family and business commitments that need attention." The changed circumstances were, of course, that the SNP took control of the Council!
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#19 I don't for one minute believe that Gordon Brown organised the collapse of the banking system in order to undermine the campaign for Scottish Independence.
The collapse of the UK banking system in part was due to Brown's gross negligence and incompetence while he was UK Chancellor.
I do like SidTheSceptic beleive that Brown took the opportunity to 'relocate' HBOS with a view to 'ethnically cleansing' their Scottish roots out of existence. It is a matter of public record that Gordon Brown is openly hostile to any notion of Scottish independence, and that he will do whatever it takes to keep Scotland in the union. Brown no longer talks of Scotland but of North Britain, a man in denial of his own homeland. The question is just what will he do, how low will he sink in his attempts to thwart independence, given his record of undermining Tony Blair then Brown cannot be trusted.
As a politician and as a person I have no respect for Gordon Brown, he is an undemocratic, arrogant political bully, I hope his remaining time in office is as short as humanly possible.
Thankfully Brown will not always be Prime Minister and Labour will not always be in government, then it will be interesting to see how Westminster relates to the Scottish Government and vice versa be it SNP or Labour controlled.
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#27 oldnat
Thanks! I can see it makes sense. I lazily rely on the hours of commentary on election night :-)
So in EA it was 1675 Labour to the SNP's 1261 in total? A margin of 414? (Or 469) That's doesn't sound like much. (Hmm, 14% or 12% of voters.)
Life rumbles on as before I suppose?
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The bank is dead. I wish NOT to be a member or customer of this monstrosity of an organisation.
bad for customers
bad for central scotland with massive job losses pending
bad for Edinburgh as a financial centre
good thumbs up to the government for saving some jobs in London and keeping corporate shareholders happy.
The bank was pretty rotten - true - but when you see all its counterparts saved, it is sad to see a once such noble institution reduced to a corporate 'brand' under a bullied government sponsored takeover. I would suspect that many customers who held loyalty to the bank will now leave.
Sitting in the prominant position at the top of the Mound now, is a crippled bank with autonomy lost: a combination of spivs, bad management and a politically motivated enforced takeover. A permanent scar on Edinburgh's skyline.
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No 21.
And so they should!
They're lot are in Government and your lot are....well headed for oblivion (praise be!!) ;)
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Off topic but interesting.
Politicos are probably aware that some of Iain Gray's local party members want to get rid of the sitting Labour MP, Anne Moffat. As a result of a local party vote to set up a reselection, the party was disbanded and Labour's NEC have instituted an investigation into the party.
Here's where it gets interesting, one of the investigators is Jack Dromey, husband of Harriet Harman. Now, check out this Guido Fawkes report of Anne Moffat buttering up Harman in the commons yesterday:
http://www.order-order.com/2008/12/did-dale-bribe-labour-mp-ann-moffat.html
Now, what's the chances of the local party members getting a fair hearing in that investigation?
Incidentally, Neil Kinnock spilt my pint at an Easy Lothian Labour Party event and didn't even offer to buy another! Admittedly that was 25 years ago, but I bear a grudge none-the-less!
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Not sure whether this qualifies as on or off topic.
Given Brown and Darlings' all too apparent lack of empathy towards their country of birth I think it's high time the people of Scotland voted to rescind the privilege that allows the two of them to call themselves Scots.
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The bank merger must just about have created the biggest bank " overdraft " in history considering both banks were up to their necks and getting worse. If the Downing Street figures for knife crime are anything to go by then the banks look like honesty personified. How can any statement from Brown's government be accorded any credibility after this. One has to ask, what the real figures for government borrowing are, because it's becoming increasingly obvious that what issues from Brown's mouth bears no relationship to the truth.
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Will Scots financiers now realise that it is better to be a big fish in the little pond of Scotland rather than try to be a global power?
The impact of the Darien scheme was to eradicate Scottish parliamentary independence, as yet not fully recovered (and unlikely so to be other than by way of independence).
The overzealous expansionism of the past few decades - thinking it a measure of power to be able to 'acquire' an English marketleading bank - has now brought the Scottish banking system to its knees, and it will be a long time indeed before the debts can be repaid.
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aye_right, you are in the same mould as Rel_Ex, that is, it does not appear that you will accept any middle ground. You also view Alex Salmond through rose-tinted glasses.
A council election in East Ayrshire means little at the moment. A very low turnout for starters - but, let me guess, you'll tell me that many SNP voters stayed at home, just as Labour supporters will say about their voters.
SNP have now got control of a council, and that means possible trouble for them since they are now in charge. That means they must deliver.
"2. Elaine C Smith is involved. Good, I said cool media-friendly personalities are a great plus. More sexy males or females wouldn't go amiss."
The reason celebs and successful actors /actresses like to support independence is that they are unlikely to suffer if anything goes pear-shaped. Look at Sean Connery. Quite happy to donate but will he return if he has to pay they same level of taxes?
Labour doing badly is not enough to have a sweeping change to independence. What is needed is a frank, detailed and most of all an HONEST debate with proposals by all sides.
I keep saying this, but there are a few posters on here who think independence is a simple case of switching Governments, changing a few letterheads and a few pieces of legislation. It is a far more complex and difficult process that is faced.
HBOS / Lloyds issue has made just about every politician look bad. GB since he forced the issue, Cameron seemed inactive and Alex Salmond constantly changed tact.
If the SNP are serious about a referendum, they would be best to leave it until after the next Scottish elections. At least then we will have had a full term of them in Government.
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21 - how many times do i need to tell you that i am not a member of the snp ?
i just have no time for your beloved labour party.
and the other point is the world does not revolve around me . the number of posts you place on these boards would suggest that you think the world revolves around you.
sid
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#36 Neil_Small147
1. East Ayrshire remains with same political composition - 14 Labour , 14 SNP, 3 Conservatives and 1 Independent - as in 2007.
2. Sean Connery paid 3.7m GBP in the UK between 1997 and 2003.
3. "Alex Salmond constantly changed tact." Nice of you to say that Salmond can be diplomatic, but I don't know that you can change tact.
:-)
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#38 sidthesceptic
"your beloved labour party."
RE has previously made an anti-Labour comment. It's probably a mistake to assume that s/he loves anything or anybody.
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40. At 8:26pm on 12 Dec 2008, oldnat wrote:
#36 Neil_Small147
3. "Alex Salmond constantly changed tact." Nice of you to say that Salmond can be diplomatic, but I don't know that you can change tact.
:-)
Oops!! I meant T A C K.............Friday evening after a rather busy day at work :)
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#36 Neil_Small147
"you are in the same mould as Rel_Ex..."
I really don't mind the comparison, as he/she is quite funny.
"You also view Alex Salmond through rose-tinted glasses."
OK, how do you know? I don't think I raved on about him (did I?). I do admire him though. He's stuck at it through thick and thin. Could you inspire others over such a long period of time? Plus, he like a laugh - his IM Jolly was ace! And anyway, he always goes to the Turra Show!
Now you might be thinking, what nonsense. And I wouldn't disagree. But lots of voters don't pay much attention to all the ins and outs of daily politics, just pick up what happens to pass by their radar. My unashamedly poor analysis of the Ayrshire election serves to demonstrate this (figures viewed in between aiming mouthfuls of pudding at toddler).
Therefore characters etc. are an important tool in getting your political message accross, it seems to me. If politics ought to be purely rational, it won't be, and the public getting carried away is as legitimate a strategy for advantage as another.
"The reason celebs and successful actors /actresses like to support independence is that they are unlikely to suffer if anything goes pear-shaped."
I was making the point that there aren't nearly enough public friendly celebs making idependence seem trendy. And actally I think it's safer for them not to air their political views as they don't want to limit their audiene appeal - good for Elaine C.
"I keep saying this, but there are a few posters on here who think independence is a simple case of switching Governments, changing a few letterheads and a few pieces of legislation. It is a far more complex and difficult process that is faced."
I know that. Since many believe putting out the detailed plans for post independence structures which would allay your concerns (but I suspect you might just criticise them?), is a non-starter as they would be irrelevant as soon as they were written, I would propose tackling it slightly differently:
Bang on and on about the point that we would get to choose the outcomes of these decisions first and foremost, then discuss them in terms of alternatives. I'd bet there are a million and one ideas out there on the best way forward after independence.
As for the costs and strategies for implementing the changeovers from one system to another, I suspect we will hear more about before too long actually. I'm looking forward to it all being covered in a pre-referendum campaign.
There is merit in looking at all the possible negatives to a plan before committing to it, but the error I fear is waiting to commit to one that doesn't have any.
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36. Neil_Small147
Oh, by the way, where is the middle ground with independence?
Independent on a Monday, Wednesday and Saturday and in the Union on Tuesday, Thursday and Sunday?
;-)
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#42 Neil_Small147
"a rather busy day at work"
Oh yes! I remember I used to have them at one time.
Here's a modern Good King Wenceslas version to provide some light relief!
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This was a Scottish Bank until today why was the vote held in Birmingham? Can anyone tell me that.
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# 33
Darling was born in London, England.
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47. At 9:28pm on 12 Dec 2008, LYDIA-REID wrote:
This was a Scottish Bank until today why was the vote held in Birmingham? Can anyone tell me that.
Probably because most of the shareholders are English!
#43 aye_right
I'm not saying celebs etc are bad for politics, but they have a bad habit of screwing things up for a party. Old Sean is a prime example. I like the guy but to say he wants independence when he doesn't live here.......
Alex Salmond was the right man to get the SNP into power, but I think he has reached his limit. He needs to hand the reins over to someone perhaps a little less humourous. The SNP have let themselves down at times with some of their MSPs chasing petty issues such as Mary Queen of Scots body. Most people, including rampant nationalists, don't give a monkeys about that. To me it's almost as bad as Jack McConnell's kilt!
Re posting plans about independence, I might criticise some of them but I'd rather see the details. I'm not going to punch holes in anything that comes up. If the suggestion is sensible I will support it.
"There is merit in looking at all the possible negatives to a plan before committing to it, but the error I fear is waiting to commit to one that doesn't have any."
No plan is perfect, but the risks have to be acceptable. No good hiding facts from the electorate, only for them to find out later there is actually major issues.
Anyway, it's almost Christmas. Let's see what the MPs and MSPs buy themselves with their allowances. :p
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Birds of prey called in to rid Scottish Parliament of its pigeon problem.
Seems a bit extreme - I didn't think the Lib-Dems were that much of a problem.
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49. Neil_Small147
Fair points. Very fair.
Who knows what's round the corner? Re Salmond, I just hope he keeps his health! And I can't deny people are quite prone to letting us and themselves down!
I do think realists are wiser and a necessary balance to optimists - so I married one.
You've just got me imagining some MSP office Xmas bash at Holyrood - OMG!
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50 oldnat
Are you suggesting that the LibDems are full of ----?!!
:-)
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#52 aye_write
As if I would!
I reserve that description for the Herald which uncritically headlines Labour's press releases.
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53. oldnat
Watch out for an aggressive flock of Heralds!
Better finish my Amazon order - wouldn't want them going under...(no danger)
Good night.
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I just hope the Scottish people reward Brown and Darling for destroying the last vestiges of a central Scottish bank by fully embracing the ECB and the Euro at the earliest independent opportunity. Euroland is by a country kilometre a far better bet than Union with England. In fact incomparably better.
Imagine people needing to be 'convinced' about their country becoming free and independent. I'm sorry to say I find this so sad.
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#48
That's only because his civil engineer daddy was working there at the time.
Come the revolution he will probably claim dual nationality. :O)
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It has been said that the only reason the English want us in the UK is to exploit 'our' oil reserves; if so, let them have the black gold - or a sizeable proportion of it.
If the only way to achieve independence is to 'buy' it, then that's fine by me...
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57
Nonsense. Why should we be expected to behave in a way that no other sovereign state is expected to. Especially of all we have to do is vote for independence.
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What surprises and concerns me is that despite the massive damage to RBS and the loss of HBOS there are still people in Scotland that will vote Labour.
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As a firm believer in the conspiracy theories I suggest that Brown and co have taken advantage of the mess they made to ensure Scotland's two banking bulwarks are now in the control of Westminster.Thus ensuring if we do eventually persuade our numpty fellow, Labour brainwashed, citizens to support Independence they will have yet another way of pulling the rug from under us.
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We've already lost the Clydesdale Bank to the Aussies and the Royal Bank has also lost its Scottish roots.
The writing was on the wall when Bank of Scotland merged with the Halifax.
Enough of national sentiment !
The way sterling continues to sink, we'll all be spending euros in a couple of years time.
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#59 Wee scamp:
People vote labour for various reasons and there are no denying there are those that vote for a political party unthinkingly because "a've always voted for them, as did ma faither and his faither afore him".
Until we get rid of that mindset, Gordie could decimate large parts of Scotland (what do you mean he already has!) and people would still vote Labour.
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#60 - jimmywauhgh
This can only be used as a tool to re-awake the ghost of Darien & highlight that Scotland is "too wee, too poor and too stupid" to run her own affairs, nothing more. Since most supporters of independence are immune to these negative Nu-lab arguments, Gordie has severerly damaged his reputation for fiscal prudence with little gain. Already, we have other countries pointing out that he's a joke, a waste of space, that far from being the saviour of the world, his direction is totally wrong and will ultimately do more damage than good. When enough of those other countries become vocal on a view almost universally shared, perhaps our "unbiased" press will cotton on the fact too. At that point, the man will finally be finished and his legacy will be the end of at least one 300 year old institution, possibly two.
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#9 "It's just a bank."
My words precisely to an affronted bank teller in a California branch of a bank which, as I had noticed that it was a subsidiary of Barclays Bank, I had light-heartedly referred to as an English bank. As far as she was concerned, she was working in an American bank regardless of who owned it. As it was no skin off my nose and as I was rather hoping to leave the premises in my own good time rather than be frog-marched out by an armed guard, I capitulated.
How we view things matters as much as how we refer to them. Were it not so, the Bank of Scotland brand would now disappear from Scotland in favour of the Lloyds TSB brand and the Bank of Scotland bank notes would cease to be issued. To fail to understand the importance of people's perceptions is not only undiplomatic but indicates a flawed understanding of business.
Lloyds TSB appears to be recognizing that it would not be commercially advantageous to bring the Bank of Scotland brand to an end. If to end the brand is to risk damaging the asset which has been acquired, then there is indeed a distinct entity which constitutes the bank in a way which is not entirely determined by ownership.
The bank is not its shareholders, although it would be nothing without them. The Bank of Scotland is indeed of Scotland as well as in Scotland, just as the US bank referred to above was of the USA rather than of England even though predominantly English-owned.
That being so, it is only realistic to recognize that not only the customers of the Bank of Scotland but the people of Scotland as a whole appear to sense that they have in some way which seems to matter a proprietorial relationship with the bank even though it is well enough understood that most of the shareholders are not nowadays Scottish or based in Scotland.
Returning to the case of my American bank teller, one needs to appreciate that, although business is business, not least in the USA, the atmosphere in which it is conducted there is a peculiarly American one, in which national independence is a powerful factor. Similarly, in Scotland the atmosphere in which business operates is one in which loss of Scottish control, although the factors at work are understood, is not universally appreciated, to say the least, and is the central theme of our politics. If it were not so, why would we have spent so much time discussing the Bank of Scotland here?
What has happened to our 300-year-old bank is intimately bound up with the political debate concerning our 300-year-old union with England, whether it strictly should be or not. A commercial bank is just a commercial bank and can be bought and sold on the open market like anything else. Yes, but . . .
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No, it is just a bank. All this sentimental syrup about three hundred years of history is a waste of time. A lot of people do not share the nationalist fancy for maudlin victimhood at every opportunity. It's depressing to see Scotland's journalists trying to normalise such silliness.
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#65
Your somewhat intemperate response confirms how politically charged this takeover of a bank has become for unionists and as well as those who are opposed to the British union. To deny that this is so appears to me to be rather silly.
I said nothing about victimhood or nationalism in my remarks concerning Scotland's association with "its bank", as the Lib Dem leader has put it in the Scottish Parliament. To represent concerns about the takeover as "nationalist fancy" is clearly unjustifiable, unless Tavish Scott is to be regarded as fanciful and a nationalist.
For some unionists all institutions which retain any vestige of Scottish identity are apparently a threat to the British union, and threats must be removed.
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Seems Gordon Brown didn't manage to save the banks (never mind the world after all),
The Germans certainly don't think so (the below is from order-order.com),
Steffen Kampeter, is the budget spokesman for Merkel's CDU, last night he backed Peer Steinbrück (the SPD finance minister), saying he was "exactly expressing" the views of the government. Yesterday Balls and Brown were spinning bullshit saying that this was internal German coalition politics - in fact it is the shared view of both the CDU and the SPD.
Kampeter put the boot into Crash Gordon: "Peer Steinbrück's comments have nothing whatsoever to do with internal German politics as Prime Minister Brown has suggested. In questioning the British Government's approach, Peer Steinbrück is exactly expressing the views of the German Grand Coalition. After years of lecturing us on how we need to share in the gains of uncontrolled financial markets, the Labour politicians can't now expect us to share in it's losses. The tremendous amount of debt being offered by Britain shows a complete failure of Labour policy."
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Concerns about the takeover are one thing, weeping and wailing over hundreds of years of history are another. It sends a clear message that the days when Scottish people could start banks is over, and the only way to keep going with banking is to prop up shoddy institutions, no matter how ancient.
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Talking of biased press today's Herald report on the two council by-elections on Thursday takes the biscuit. It is headlines as a great night for Labour.
There was a substantial swing to the SNP in both seats!
Labour held an East Ayrshire seat despite an almost 5% swing to the SNP
In North Ayrshire the SNP held onto a seat with a over 15% swing to the SNP.
The SNP also got rid of a Councillor on its Glasgow team that it very much wanted rid of and who would not have been reselected so it looks rather like a pretty good night for the SNP from where I'm standing.
Rob Dinwoodie must be worried about his job at the Herald to write such tripe.
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#69 sneckedagain
Dinwoodie didn't write it. The first part of the "article" is a straight lift from the Labour website (which I read yesterday afternoon) - to which he has tacked on the North Ayrshire result (largely from the SNP website) whose results were published later.
It's a cut and paste job - shoddy and lazy journalism.
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For the Unionists who look to having everything cut and dried before they would go down the independence route.
A Blueprint for Indigenous Self-Government:
"This is in fact how the Northwest Territories (NWT) government failed. Created in its full-blown form in 1966-67, officials in the NWT government were full of idealistic aspirations that the new government would truly ?empower? indigenous peoples.[18] The error however, was that officials were too ready to borrow a Southern Canadian model off the shelf when government should have been reinvented from the ground up. Meeting national standards rather than meeting indigenous needs became the priority and led to various administrative structures and programs which were more suited to the agendas of southern non-indigenous whites than to the unique needs of northern indigenous peoples. The emphasis on culturally appropriate local solutions in the Bathurst Mandate, suggests that Nunavut has learnt from those earlier NWT mistakes."
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http://www.scottishlabour.org.uk/double_whammy
http://www.theherald.co.uk/politics/news/display.var.2474910.0.Defection_and_defeat_strike_blow_to_Nationalists.php
I looked up the claims made by old nat; not because I thought anything was inaccurate, but because I simply couldn?t believe it would be so blatant: it is!
Above Labour Party take on "double whammy" (ignore swings to the SNP of 5 and 15%). Below, the same from "Scotland?s premier quality newspaper"!
That is plain plagiarism.
I am from North Ayrshire, and if Labour are losing Kilbirnie and Beith by such a margin (SNP vote almost doubled) then they have serious problems. It would be nice if the media choose to reflect the whole picture rather than a minor defection to the almighty Labour Party Group in Glasgow Council and the fact that Labour only lost a suffered a further 5% swing in a Council controlled by the SNP (and in a Scottish Parliamentary seat recently wrested from them!
If I were Des Browne looking at such results in the Kilmarnock area, I would be planning my return to the private sector - maybe the Carlyle Group would take another former minister under its wing?
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So whose to blame for the demise of a once great Scottish institution.
Step forward Peter Burt, the architect of the "merger" with the Halifax.
Closely followed by those 2 incompetents Andy Hornby and Dennis Stevenson.
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HBOS rewards 100 branch managers with New York trip"
"STRICKEN bank HBOS is to fly 100 branch managers and their partners to New York to reward their performance during a year that has seen it plunge to the brink of collapse, it emerged today."
They are even going to get spending money for their 4 day trip. A P45 might be more appropriate.
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Re #70 oldnat
Better be careful, making comments like that about journalists will have the old ex-hacks on this blog hunting you down. they get very sensitive when you point out the less than professional job done by their ex-colleagues.
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#70 #75......jings, crivvens, helpa ma boab.....if we can't trust journalists who can we trust, my goodness next we won't be able to trust politicians or worse bankers.
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Hats off to you who can muster the will to read the Herald etc. I mostly find it ULTRA boring.
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#75 bloggger
But in their day, you couldn't cut and paste with a quill pen!
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At independence we can create a bank that actually behaves properly and with good practice backed up by a substantial oil fund and tax revenues from renewables, whisky etc. Of course if the Quisling British Nationalists nulab and Tory have their way we'll be paying their debts off for a generation with our resources.
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Re #76 InMyKip
and
Re #78 oldnat
LOL
Nice to see a sense of humour on this blog ..... some would say you need it !
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There's a new UK ComRes poll - the Scottish sample is as usual around 75, so I've taken their polls over the last 6 months, removed the highest and lowest numbers for each party and averaged the remaining 8 polls. (Nothing worth watching on TV!)
The results are fairly predictable -
27% - Labour
29% - SNP
12% - Con
10% - LD
23% - Dont Know/Don't Care/Others
We have 2 major parties and 2 minor parties, plus a large number who are unsure.
Big deal.
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Apparently five million votes have been cast so far tonight on X-Factor!
The SNP just need to come up with an Xmas no.1 this time next year...
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#82 aye_write
Were all these 5 million votes all from the DUP/Sinn Fein alliance on this?
We could always have a Scottish entry with Salmond & Gray singing "Two Little Boys".
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Joan McAlpine: Why Foulkes has that inferior feeling
"I suspect he suffers from a condition known as inferiorism. It was originally identified by Frantz Fanon, a psychiatrist and philosopher from the French colony of Martinique. Fanon argued that natives of colonised countries internalise the message that their customs are inferior to those of the occupying power. The coloniser is seen as the bringer of superior ways and universal human values. Political control is asserted by undermining self-belief. The cringe, in other words."
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79. At 7:57pm on 13 Dec 2008, bluelaw wrote:
At independence we can create a bank that actually behaves properly and with good practice backed up by a substantial oil fund and tax revenues from renewables, whisky etc. Of course if the Quisling British Nationalists nulab and Tory have their way we'll be paying their debts off for a generation with our resources.
Small flaw with your suggestion. Well, a few:
We don't have an oil fund.
We don't have substantial (if any) taxes from renewables.
What exactly are the export revenues from Scotch Whisky?
We can't all work in the oil, energy and whisky industries.
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#84 cynicalHighlander
Good links today - thanks.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#83. oldnat
"We could always have a Scottish entry with Salmond & Gray singing "Two Little Boys". - Aaarrggh. Actually, yes, they'd "m'be fecht"! (fight) - good TV.
Re your earlier statistics in #81, are we allowed to ascertain therefore that in a referendum, independence is there for the taking?
#85 Neil_Small147
Maybe he only meant it as a lovely notion to get us in an optimistic mood! ie. not an actual plan of action?? (Hopes.)
Big ideas are handy but I suppose they backfire if not then described in terms of a solid pragmatic approach?
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87
I've become accustomed to reading silly rubbish from Neil_Small147 but this is his silliest yet. Does he think he is debating with 10 year olds?
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#87. oldnat
Shocked!
Did not read, so I am using my imagination - can't believe the language! ;-)
(Just seen #90! - Cor...)
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I have no idea why my #87 & #90 broke the rules. I removed the link from my #90.
It maybe that we have an ignorant and/or Unionist mod who doesn't want the facts of whisky exports (in response to Neil_Small) revealed to the world through the Beeb. We'll see.
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Whisky Exports - Part 1
Scotch Whisky is one of the UK?s top five export earning manufacturing industries, contributing in excess of GBP 2 billion a year to the balance of trade.
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#91 aye_write
Your generation of young ladies shouldn't even understand those words!
;-)
The last time I had a fight with a less than brilliant mod, it took me till 3.30 am to get my original post finally passed! - see you in the morning.
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Whisky Exports - Parts 1-2
Scotch Whisky is one of the UK?s top five export earning manufacturing industries, contributing in excess of GBP 2 billion a year to the balance of trade.
The Whisky industry plays a vital role in Scotland's economy. Spirits production in Scotland not only employs directly more than 10,000 people, but also creates a large amount of employment in suppliers of goods and services, and the incomes earned in the industry and in its supplier firms create further employment as they are spent.
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Seems that copyright laws are now coming in to play.
Whisky exports. £90 per sec or £7-8 million per day.
night all.
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95. oldnat
LOL - The natural persistence of a nationalist!
PS Hope I was right with the middle of #88 re #81
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#98 aye_write
re my #81 - It's all to play for!
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89. At 11:16pm on 13 Dec 2008, sneckedagain wrote:
87
I've become accustomed to reading silly rubbish from Neil_Small147 but this is his silliest yet. Does he think he is debating with 10 year olds?
-----------------
Not as silly as the "Arc of Prosperity", made up of whatever countries are not in recession or bankrupt. Falls into the "Gordon Brown's How I Saved the World" category. Why is it silly to question a post?
Oldnat, I didn't realise whisky generated that level of revenue. So it's a start. That should pay for the MSPs expenses. :p
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#99, 100, 102! oldnat
Hurray! And LOL!!
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101 Neil_Small147
Thanks for looking up the figures on whisky which the mods wouldn't let me quote.
I think whisky is downplayed in the economics of Scotland, because it's seen as part of the "shortbread tin" mentality. In fact, as you've found out, it's a global player.
Anaxim was totally wrong to play down (in a previous thread) Scotland as a "luxury" producer, since Scotch has such a world-wide reputation, that other Scottish products can "piggy-back" on.
If the world stops drinking - we're stuffed!
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In the year 2000, around 41,000 Scottish jobs depended on the production of Scotch Whisky.
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Just over 9,500 are employed directly in Scotch Whisky production in Scotland, with a further 20,000 Scottish jobs in businesses which supply goods and services to Scotch Whisky companies.
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The processes of blending, packaging and distribution create even more jobs than distillation: the industry relies heavily on local suppliers with 68% of the industry?s expenditure on goods and services being made with companies based in Scotland.
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The largest element of spending - 33% of Scottish input purchases - is on packaging and bottles. Further income and employment is generated as incomes created within the economy both directly and indirectly are spent. It has been estimated that this induced impact created around 11,500 jobs in Scotland.
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The value of exports reached a new high of GBP 2.8bn, earning GBP 90 every second for the UK balance of trade.
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At independence we'll create that oil fund. We'll create that bank. We'll create that defence force. We'll create that media. We'll create that foreign presence via Embassies, consulates etc. We'll create that just and prosperous Scotland.
Whisky revenues are huge which is why Westminster has hidden them for decades from the Scottish revenue figures - by listing them as English revenues due to many of their head offices being located there.
Only ignorant untravelled BritNat Unionists would dismiss the arc of prosperity countries. They'll all emerge from recession in far better shape than Scotland precisely because they are not controlled by a hostile foreign power nor are they filled with Quisling apologists who think their countries and peoples simply aren't good enough.
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The value of exports to India rose by 36% to GBP 33m, while exports to the European Union went up by 27%.
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The later data above come from the Scotch Whisky Association.
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Mods
Congratulations - you have now posted all of my original posting which you said broke your House Rules.
This is the third time that has happened, and on each occasion, you have eventually published my original post.
Oldnat 3 - BBC 0
Your moderators should apply for posts as political journalists with the Herald - they clearly meet all the qualifications.
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Little Ms Moffat has been busy.
Her comment under question seems typical- "Asked why much of the content had been recycled from websites and press releases, she said: "I'm not going to comment any more."
The spider may be descending!
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Admirable!
The Scottish Independence Convention website should have a link to the Scotch Whisky Association website then, in its Links & Recourses section (at least) - don't see that they do.
Plain facts and figures appear effective, speaking for themselves without related persuasive discourse, which can merely serve to be offputting.
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#114
Clearly I was wrong in #77 - the Sunday Herald anyway is very entertaining! Bravo.
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"Anaxim was totally wrong to play down (in a previous thread) Scotland as a "luxury" producer, since Scotch has such a world-wide reputation, that other Scottish products can "piggy-back" on."
That's been the strategy for years, hasn't it?
You may have noticed the American carmakers hitting the wall because they failed to change with the times. They relied on people buying American and other brand-related chicanery to keep themselves going. It didn't work too well.
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117 Anaxim
Hmm, in a 'global recession' you might not buy a new car - but (mourning that car?!) you may well drink more!
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?There needs to be something like a truth and reconciliation process in the City and Wall Street. Bankers need to be brought blinking into the light of public accountability. Executives like Peter Cummings of HBOS Corporate, who stands charged with irresponsible lending, need to be held to account, and at the very least relieved of their posts in these semi-nationalised institutions.
Above all, there needs to be more coherence in government, and less vanity. Gordon Brown seems genuinely to believe that he is the saviour of the world banking system. He is not; he was one of the agents of its downfall, a politician who sold his soul to the City, and its ludicrous financial engineering, and is now trying to disguise the mess he's made by hurling billions of pounds of taxpayers' money at a broken system. Future generations have not voted for Brown's mistakes, but they will pay for it.?
Credit where credit is due! This is from the Sunday Herald, by McWhirter. Almost restores your faith in a free media ? almost.
http://www.sundayherald.com/oped/opinion/display.var.2475007.0.0.php
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#84, I no longer cringe, I appreciate and enjoy.
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#119 it is time Brown's incompetent hand in the current financial mess was highlighted and closely examined within the media.
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Let's talk facts.
The online branch of Halifax, Intelligent Finance, was incompetent.
For example, when the IBAN account format was brought in, it had the general structure in the introduction GBnn..., where GB is the ISO nation ID, nn 2 check-digits in the range 1-97, and ... the account ID, which for the UK is 4 letters Bank ID, 6 for the Sort Code and the remainder the account number. However, the sheet distributed had 34 instead on nn, as it was positions 3 & 4, but it was clear what they meant.
What did IF do? They sent out IBANs to their clients telling them to use GB34HFAX..., every single one was GB34, which meant that only 1 payment in 97 could get through. When I explained to them how they were wrong, they refused to listen - not very intelligent. So I spoke to BoS, and they didn't want to know either.
If their IT specialist branch couldn't get something as simple as coding an account number checkdigits right, they were bound to be all at sea on more complex contingency operations, and that sunk them, they were out of control because their Jimmy Shand management recruited dealers who knew what to do, but not why, and so were unable to control their exposures.
So Scotland should be glad to be shot of a bunch of incompetent wasters. At least Lloyds are sufficiently conservative to appeal to the Morningside Aggies...
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I've had enough of these moderators so I'm referring them to the BBC Trust, as there's gross dissatisfaction on all the blogs. They apply their rules blindly, without any understanding of their subjects, and without using any of the discretion they're allowed. They're welcome to ban me, I'll create another avatar and post under a different name.
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Lets have a look at the Arc of Prosperity.
Iceland - banks collapsed. According to many commentators their banking situation was no worse than the UK's.
Q. Why then did their banking system collapse?
A. Because Britain (illegally) seized their assets under anti-terrorism legislation. One of their collapsed banks was British owned. They'd been playing silly b*ggers with credit and loans- just like UK and US banks.
Russia offered to step in and help them out (and get a bit of control over the N Atlantic in the process) forcing UK to step in and throw lots of money at Iceland. Clever stuff from Broon. I don't know of Iceland still intends to take legal action against UK. Perhaps the hand-out has prevented that.
Ireland- in recession and the first country to rapidly take action to protect its banking system. (Was criticised savagely by Broon for doing so who then belatedly had to do the same for British banks). Went into the recession 40% per head better off than the UK and are forecast to come out of it quicker and at least 40% better off per head than the UK. Have done exactly the right thing at the moment -slashed Government spending and wages.
Ireland national debt per capita is a fraction of UK's
Norway - Following a period of high oil prices has an oil fund worth now about £200,000,000,000. This is the equivalent of more than £50,000 for every Norwegian family and the interest on this will continue for ever.
Britian's present situation is the equivalent of a debt of over £50,000 for every UK family (and our children's children will still be paying for it).
Nuff said.
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Demise of the pound as well.
Good economic management.
Well done Gord. and Al., or should I say, in keeping with their competence, Ollie and Stan.
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Great post 124
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#113
My 123 has been referred to the moderators for daring to notify you that I have formally instigated disciplinary proceedings against them. That is exactly why I have flipped, they delay relevant postings so long they distort the logical structure of our arguments, they remove valid arguments, they generally foul up much more than they contribute.
It is in the nature of a site like this that there will be a number of adversarial positions. Their role is to simply take the heat out of the debate, and the first step of that is to warn correspondants, not to shoot their postings.
I'm not complaining for myself, but because I see a pattern across all the blogs, cases being destroyed by youngsters who're frankly unqualified to act as editors in the way they are doing. This and the delays they are causing is destroying coherent argument.
My 123 was carefully checked before posting to see that it did not contravene any House Rules other than off-thread, and that one's indefensible because I'm protesting about their interference with the threads.
The point of excluding foreign languages, for instance, is to stop incomprehensible abuse. This is why it's an optional House Rule, but it isn't being applied with discretion. English is itself a hybrid of other languages, and can invent words, see the flexicon thread on Magazine Monitor.
As the moderators can't be bothered to reply privately, then they must defend themselves to their bosses and the Trust.
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It is a pity that HBOS and RBS were not allowed to go into administration, creating the opportunity for some one to buy their facilities in Scotland from the administrator without the debts and bad loans, re-employ the staff and start a new bank.
In theory this option will still be available when the headquarters are moved out of Scotland, but the best staff will be taken with them, and the parent companies will no doubt make it difficult for anyone to set up in competition with themselves.
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Brian
The pound is now buying less than one euro when the commission is taken into account.
Is this the international money markets giving their verdict on Browns recover plan?
Mind you one of your posters said on another thread that the UKs financial rating was AAA, so that's all right then.
Quote "a weak currency is a sign of a weak economy, which is the sign of a weak government"
I wonder which financial genius said that! Oh yes it was Gordon Brown.
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Brian, just saw you on the Politics Show. The reason that the SNP are 'struggling' to get their message across that the arc of prosperity is not an arc of insolvency and why Labour are not struggling to maintain that it is is because it's a British nationalist Unionist controlled and dominated media including the BBC.
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As the financial crisis grows, it's good to see our first minister concentrating on the truly important issues:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/7782273.stm
Is this seriously his reason for a taxpayer-funded trip to the Med coast?
124. So how come Iceland and Ireland were promptly dropped by Shrek in his second 'Arc' despite the publicity they gave that Irish radio hack on the SNP website?
Also Norway, even with it's legendary high taxes, still runs an annual deficit approaching 5% of GDP (and that was before this crisis started).
Truly these are economic models that Scotland should emulate.
Nuff said.
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Reluctant-Expat
My gods, Norway must be doomed, doomed I tel ye, an annual deficit approaching 5% (etc)
The UK with its annual deficit of 42%, soon to be 57% with PPP/PFI included (if you believe Labours figures) is seen worldwide as a roll model of financial probity and Norway would be well advised to get ministers on the next available plane so they can learn some lessons.
You said on another post that the UK credit rating was AAA. I asked you to list the financial institutions that were rated AAA up to about three months ago. Needless to say I am still waiting. What would Norway give for a similar AAA rating.
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"Research carried out by the Office of the Chief Researcher suggests the majority of Scottish organisations and institutions (58%) backed the principle of a Scottish domain."
northseaoil.sco
whisky.sco
radioscotland.sco
Staring to look good, onwards and upwards.
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I would hope that most people have learned that RE's postings on economic matters are not worth the screen space they occupy.
In his/her #131, some nonsense is written about Norway
"Norway, even with it's legendary high taxes, still runs an annual deficit approaching 5% of GDP".
The 2007 IMF analysis of Norway's situation reported that it's non-oil fiscal deficit was in line to meet it's plan to be 4% - ie an amount fully funded by income from its Government Petroleum Fund. NB not the oil revenues themselves!
Norway has the second highest sovereign wealth fund in the world. Even the USA decided to set up a sovereign wealth fund based on Alaskan oil. The UK decided to treat oil as a revenue source and still ran at a fiscal deficit!
The top 8 overeign wealth funds are as follows (in billions of dollars)-
UAE, 875
Norway,373
Singapore, 330
Saudi Arabia, 300
Kuwait, 250
China, 200
Singapore, 159.2
Russia, 133
Thatcher's decision (followed by every UK Government since) to use oil as a revenue stream instead of an investment has been disastrous.
It's not Labour or Tory that destroyed the Scottish and UK economies, but the UK itself and its pitiful attempt to be a "world power".
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Oldnat
You forgot Scotlands wealth fund,
Scotland Nil, zilch,nothing,Flip all.
Yet another union dividend.
Still RE will soon be reporting that tractor production in the great UK collective is soaring ahead proof that the great leaders economic policy is working.
All tractor figures verified and are acceptable to all comrades in North Britianshire.
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Watching Scottish politics today something incredible happened - they all agreed on a major point: we should not jump into the Euro just because Sterling is mince at the moment. The reason given is that the Euro is dependant on a lot of differing economies, and in six months time is it quite possible the situation could be reveresed.
Another comment made on the programme was that we should get away from the "What If Scotland was independent" debate that continues on a near enough daily basis. The bottom line is that we are not, and if the SNP want to push independence then they need to start from now. That means to stop blaming Westminster for absolutely everything going wrong. Yes, they are responsible for a lot but not everything.
The focus should be on "this is what we propose to do". Then state clearly what needs done in each of the critical areas.
Until that is done, then I think we will remain divided between Labour and SNP as the other parties simply do not provide any real confidence.
Re the oil fund, has any political commentator actually asked Gordon Brown or Alistair Darling why they will not do this?
I hate to say this, but I actually agree with Re-Exp (post 131) about Alex's priorities. How much money is being wasted here? I can understand promoting Scotland, but is he actually promoting Scottish business here? Existing companies are not going to go through the expenses of changing their domain name.
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Gordon Brown must blame himself, not the USA
#Neil_Small147
Your so negative in your whole outlook look at #133 58% of BUSINESSES in SCOTLAND are in favour of a sco or scot domain. Maybe do a little research to find answers to your own questions first before coming up with unsubstantiated opinions. Try reading about an earlier link to Foulkes as you appear to of got it bad.
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Neil_Small147
Funny I thought that the SNP had been pushing independence for a great many years now. Maybe that is why they are the largest party at Holyrood.
Ask Brown or Darling, is the UK media going to ask an difficult question, I think not. The BBC lost it B**** after Gilligan and has never recovered them.
Re Alex priorities, have you read the article? 58% of Scottish organizations and institutions backed the principal of a Scottish domain.
Still better not to have initiatives like this, London Labour lapdogs will be thinking that we are getting ideas above our station. Why we may start to want to be like normal countries next.
You and RE can continue to grovel for your pocket money, some of us have got off our knees.
P.S. Oldnat
Have you got a breakdown of what the current position is in Scotland with the opinion polls in this weekends papers?
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Neil Small
And how much money was wasted on the Calman commission? Or propping up banks who don't give a damn about Scots jobs? What cheek to decry the SNP taking over a nulab initiative and trying their best to breathe economic life into Scotland's tourist trade?
Westminster is to blame and very much so. They have destroyed Scotland's economy as part of a scorched earth policy towards Scotland. Brown and Darling ensuring Scotland has no national bank is just the latest chapter in this sad and long story.
Why do you think no proper questions were asked of Darling or Brown over the oil fund issue? Because we have people like Campbell, Brewer and even our dearly beloved Brian asking the 'tough' questions here. Campbell when he did ask let Darling quite clearly off the hook and allowed all the bluster about 'united we stand' to pour forth and then predictably setting about Swinney about fluctuations, the time Norway had had etc ect ad nauseum. Even the supposedly more forensic Bewer talked of a Scottish "seflishness" in these things.
So what's the common denominator here? They're all quite obviously Unionists. They don't see Brown as having sold Scotland out. They see them as propping Britain up. Now, I'm sorry to be so personal but this is important. The opposing view of events is not being given a proper in depth airing. Just vitriol against Salmond or Iceland and the like.
The truth is the SNP can do little when the real power resides with Westminster. So the weekly debacle plays out where iain Gray criticises 'cuts' in Scotland yet ignores the perverse irony that it's his boss in Westminster that is implementing these cuts via the pocket money he decides Scotland is worthy of receiving and which is as we speak being reduced by 1 billion over 2 years - when we all know Scotland sends a surplus each year...
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Of course Scottish business is being promoted with the domain name. never heard of branding?
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More pathetic unionist sniping ... the First Minister backed an independent campaign, and agreed to promote its goal in a pre-arranged trip to Catalonia ... a similar 'submerged nation', which has won better terms from the central Govt. in Madrid than Scotland has yet wrangled out of London. Shock horror!
What about Brown's trip to Afghanistan to justify more British casualties in that pointless war? How much did that cost the taxpayer ... and he wasn't even elected into that post!
If we want to talk about incompetent fiscal policy how about that idiotic cut in VAT for around a year ... talk to any shop-owner or worker and they know exactly what a difference that has made: none & their not to pleased with Broon forcing them to redo all their xmas prep, and recalculate VAT on every item for a matter of pence difference ... which will then be rounded up to 9.99 or equivalent again!
So please lets get things in perspective - if you want the First Minister to do something about the economic crisis you must first give him at least full fiscal autonomy, to enable him to do something. It is completely unfair to deny such financial clout and then moan that the same individual is "doing nothing" - as that is exactly what your stance has empowered him to do.
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#138 dubbieside
YouGov won't publish its data for a day or two. The ComRes Scottish data is such a tiny number that it can be wildly inaccurate on any single poll (last month it had the Lib-Dems at only 3%).
For what it's worth the 14 Dec ComRes poll figures for Scotland were (change from 5 Dec in brackets) were
Lab, 39% (+3%)
SNP, 29% (+5%)
L_D, 14% (+11%)
Con, 10% (-1%)
D_K, 12% (-18%)
The D_K figure is the combined figure for Don't Know, Don't Care, Others
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Sorry - typos in my #142
Data should read
Lab, 34% (+3%)
SNP, 29% (+5%)
L_D, 14% (+11%)
Con, 11% (-1%)
D_K, 12% (-18%)
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Neil,
#136.
"That means to stop blaming Westminster for absolutely everything going wrong. Yes, they are responsible for a lot but not everything."
Neil, you are being incredibly unfair to our Scottish Government. It's their duty as our representatives to point out the flaws of our system, and the unfairness which is created.
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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/iainmartin/3726713/Britain-leads-the-world...-at-peddling-fantasies.html
Broon's Fantasy Island
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Salmond:
"The time is ripe for the worldwide family of Scots to have their own domain reflecting an online community defined by a shared commitment to Scottish identity, culture and economic promotion.
It is not only for Scots who live in Scotland but for our extensive Diaspora and it will be particularly appropriate for a bid to be made during the 2009 Year of Homecoming."
With the dire economic situation, the nationalists seem to be retreating ever further into their ethnic shell. Notice how Salmond prioritises identity and culture over economic matters.
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Oldnat
Many thanks for the figures, interesting to see the SNP share of the vote still increasing, despite the media spin, honeymoon over etc.
As I think that just now, post Glenrothes and credit crunch, is Labours high point, I am please that the gap is so narrow.
I have just done my gas and electricity quarterly bill on line today and it is a shocker. I am fortunate that I can still afford to pay it, but I am sure there will be many people in Scotland who will be left with the choice heat or eat.
Once these bills start to hit home will people see them as another union benefit?
P.S. What do the figures equate to in terms of seats at a general election?
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#136 Neil_Small147
"if the SNP want to push independence then they need to start from now"
Of course that is true, but independence won't happen unless those of you who vote for continuing the Union change your perspective.
You say "That means to stop blaming Westminster for absolutely everything going wrong. Yes, they are responsible for a lot but not everything."
You (personally) chose to make them responsible - for all the best reasons, I'm sure - but you wanted Westminster to be in charge, and you have to accept what your decision has resulted in.
No UK (or Scottish) oil fund
Military action to achieve regime change
Erosion of civil rights
Dominant executive power at the expense of the legislature
Centrally imposed forms of local government
Purchasing WMD and the means of delivery
etc etc
Can you suggest what the good results have been from your decision to vote for a continuance of the UK?
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#117, Anaxim
You say that the Big Three automakers suffered because they did not change with the times. Not so. They are failing because they build poor cars.
My wife drives a 5 year old Chevy Malibu with 50,000 miles on the clock. She's a careful driver. I drive a 10 year old Toyota Camry with 150,000 miles on the clock (100,000 since I got it five years ago). Not having been allowed to drive in the UK (silly pigeon-holing on a wee disability) I am making up for lost time by being a Boy Racer. You'd think my wife's car would be in better condition, wouldn't you? Of course, you would be wrong. My well-built Japanese car will more than likely outlast my wife's poorly designed and engineered American car.
The point of all this? Your post #117 becomes completely irrelevant.
Now to the topic at hand. The Bank of Scotland is no more. Mind you, it hasn't existed for several years. It stopped serving its bread-and-butter customers (including me) about the time it merged with Halifax. Given that, we should not mourn its passing. When I was preparing to emigrate in 2001 I had a hard time trying to get BoS to work with me to tidy up my financial affairs in the UK. My work colleague overheard a few conversations between me and the person masquerading as a bank manager. He devised a (technically) legal plan that would have resulted in me walking away from my mortgage with 9,000 quid of the bank's money in my pocket. It is scary to think that I could have done it with just a phone call and a signature on a bit of paper. When I think of the failure of sound banking practice, it is quite staggering. If it happened in my case (in a process that took several months, so it wasn't just someone having a bad day) in how many other cases did BoS mess up?
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#146 Anaxim
Do you want to add something to this?
Strictly speaking Mr Brown, you should be leading
At least John Sergeant did the honourable thing and resigned.
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#147 dubbieside
The data is too weak to be translated into seats.
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Anaxim writes:
"the nationalists seem to be retreating ever further into their ethnic shell."
This statement was posted in reference to the proposal that there should be a '.sco' or similar domain name allocated to Scotland.
How the awfull phrase 'ethnic shell' can be thought to apply to anyone seeking to promote the culture and economic wellbeing of Scotland is utterly astonishing.
Why is it that anything or anybody that seeks to promote Scotland or her culture and businesses outwith the confines of the Union are so despised by some Unionists?
The domain name proposal is a marvellous opportunity to promote brand Scotland. That is why around 60% of businesses reacted positively to the suggestion and why 80% of scots do.
Are all of these respondents to be attacked in the way we have just witnessed?
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#149 Skip_NC
Building shoddy cars which nobody wants is pretty much the definition of failing to change with the times. The Big Three clung onto outdated equipment and practices, and stood hard in the face of emissions regulations, preferring to churn out gas guzzling SUVs, the only cars they could make a profit on.
They also used branding techniques to disguise their rotten cars (sponsoring the Oscars, for example). Until recently, GM still sold more cars than Toyota. But branding only works so far, and ultimately it can be counter-productive, gobbling up money just to stay ahead and encouraging complacency.
The danger is the same with the 'Scotland the brand' nonsense.
#150 cynicalHighlander
Brown should resign and the entire Labour party should be scrapped.
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#136 Neil_Small147
"Existing companies are not going to go through the expenses of changing their domain name."
From 'InterNIC?Public Information Regarding Internet Domain Name Registration Services' website:
"Each registrar [where you register your domain name] has the flexibility to offer initial and renewal registrations in one-year increments, with a total registration period limit of ten years."
So unless every company with their own domain name registered it ten years ago, there's a fair chance they will have to fork out to re-register at some not too distant point anyway, therefore the 'prohibitive cost' you mention of doing so does not exist :-)
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#152 greenockboy
"How the awfull phrase 'ethnic shell' can be thought to apply to anyone seeking to promote the culture and economic wellbeing of Scotland is utterly astonishing."
It's the phrase that Salmond uses, the 'worldwide family of Scots' that sends a shiver down my spine. If it's a family, is Salmond the daddy?
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# 134. oldnat
Plus Kuwaitis pay no tax - that's right!
They also get thousands of KD FROM the govt. when they get married and some more when they have a child and they are helped to get a nice house, and a (invariably ginormous) car etc. etc.
Obviously I know they have their probs, with Wasta and their Asian workers are tantamount to slaves, but isn't it interesting to be made aware of such a contrast:
Now let's see, if we buy a car, we are taxed on our wages before we use them to buy the car, then taxed when we buy the car, then taxed when we put fuel in the car then taxed to put the car on the road, then taxed when MOTing the car...
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Anaxim:
"Notice how Salmond prioritises identity and culture over economic matters."
And what economic power does our Scottish Government control?
You seem to be implying that Salmond has all the power under the sun to help Scotland through this 'global' economic crises!
The 'Homecoming' will help encourage thousands of Scots back home, to spend their money and to indulge in what Scotland can offer.
"...the nationalists seem to be retreating ever further into their ethnic shell."
Ah yes, its rather typical of a unionist to spin something that could be good as some sort of Scottish nationalist conspiracy.
Your attitude is disgusting. Perhaps it could be more believable if you have not repeated your opinion that the Union should continue on so many occasions, but of course your comments are not going to be biased against the SNP?
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# 143. oldnat wrote:
"Sorry - typos in my #142
Data should read
Lab, 34% (+3%)
SNP, 29% (+5%)
L_D, 14% (+11%)
Con, 11% (-1%)
D_K, 12% (-18%)"
-------
I'll further correct them for you..
Fierties, 34% (+3%)
Fanatics, 29% (+5%)
Fuds, 14% (+11%)
Fascists, 11% (-1%)
'Far's the paper?' 12% (-18%)
:-]
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I can feel the unionists loosing all the arguements. It's only a matter of time!
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148. At 6:25pm on 14 Dec 2008, oldnat wrote:
#136 Neil_Small147
"if the SNP want to push independence then they need to start from now"
Of course that is true, but independence won't happen unless those of you who vote for continuing the Union change your perspective.
You say "That means to stop blaming Westminster for absolutely everything going wrong. Yes, they are responsible for a lot but not everything."
You (personally) chose to make them responsible - for all the best reasons, I'm sure - but you wanted Westminster to be in charge, and you have to accept what your decision has resulted in.
No UK (or Scottish) oil fund
Military action to achieve regime change
Erosion of civil rights
Dominant executive power at the expense of the legislature
Centrally imposed forms of local government
Purchasing WMD and the means of delivery
etc etc
Can you suggest what the good results have been from your decision to vote for a continuance of the UK?
----------------
I am taking exception to some of the comments about myself. I am NOT a unionist Gordon Brown's backside licking Labour supporter. I sit on the fence, since neither side has convinced me otherwise. I am also rather patriotic but also a realist, if a bit apprehensive. After all, I have a job and two pensions (not gold plated) potentially on the line.
There is quite a lot that I do not like about our current Westminster Government, (including invasions and ID cards etc). However, the HBOS issue has shown that Scotland does have a possible weakness in the global market. OK, if we had the oil etc etc but the fact is we don't know that for certain.
154 aye_right I'm talking about cost to the company regarding all sorts of admin changes. And a change of branding doesn't always produce results. (unless it is red-hot and applied appropriately!)
141. At 4:42pm on 14 Dec 2008, pattymkirkwood wrote:
Brown's ... and he wasn't even elected into that post!
Patty, while I agree with you in principle, remember that you voted for an MP to represent you, most likely based on his/her party. They vote for the leader, not you.
If Alex Salmond was ousted (however unlikely), would you then apply the same argument to the Scottish Government?
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Salmond and the SNP are not by any stretch of the imagination ethnic nationalists. According to the SNP; at independence everyone resident in Scotland whatever their ethnicity or nationality is welcome to claim Scottish citizenship. They are on record as being pro-immigration and Salmond himself has said "we're not full up". Apart from SNP members and activists being English Salmond has openly praised England as a "great country" more than capable of ruling itself without Scottish labour MPs being parachuted in to the fury of the English electorate. And when in the US again on record he said all those who claimed Scottish heritage were welcome to attend Homecoming and indeed even those who weren't were more than welcome to come along and join in the fun. So please lets put to rest this idea that the SNP live within some tribal or ethnic 'shell'.
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#146 Anaxim
"Notice how Salmond prioritises identity and culture over economic matters."
Well, you cannot effectively manage "economic matters" if identity and culture are simultaneously ignored??
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Brian
I would like to thank you and your mods for letting us continue these discussions on your blog. They are in the main constructive and thought provoking.
Just one final thought before going to watch that detective,
In any referendum we only have to win once. The unionists will have to win every time.
On that happy thought good night all.
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#160 Neil_Small147
If you have voted for a pro-independence party, then I apologise, and withdraw my remarks unreservedly.
If, on the other hand, you have voted for pro-UK parties, then you got exactly what you voted for (even if you didn't want it). We all need to take personal responsibility for the consequences of exercising (or not) our votes. In the past, I have voted for Unionist parties, and I share in that guilt.
The whole point is that UK politicians have never abandoned their pretensions to leading a "great power", and have wasted much of our money on military adventures, pretentious projects and borrowing to support it. UK politicians have dismally failed in updating our economy, but gone for "quick fixes" like using the oil revenues to fund expenditure and "post neo-classical endogenous growth theory" as the principal driver of the economy.
Whatever mistakes independent English and Scottish governments would have made (and they would have been many!), pale into insignificance compared to the follies of the UK.
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Thomas Porter says of Anaxim:
"Your attitude is disgusting."
I echo your sentiments Thomas. I am honestly appalled at some of the comments that the moderators see fit to allow from Reluctant - Expat and now Anaxim.
The phrase "ethnic shell" is repugnant and should never have been allowed.
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I too am disgusted by anaxim's talk of an 'ethnic shell'. Show's the Britnat desperation in reality though.
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#162 aye_write:
Don't get too het up over anaxim's comments. He's just another Lord Folkes, criticisising Scotland's media for being too parochail at the same time his party are forcing it to be so, sniping at Scots and all things Scottish, the very definition of that most peculiar of traits, the Scottish Cringe.
After all, we can't have Scots thinking they have a distinct identity that's not a subset of the UK's and, by extension, the English or that even if they do, that that identity is something to be proud of. Hence comments along the lines of " the 'Scotland the brand' nonsense". Classic Folkes, with just about as much to recommend it as a comment worth noting.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Oops!
168 cont.
...and it costs nothing to e-mail all your customers to tell them the change - a nice bit of advertising actually) plus the cost of new stationary, then this could well be a wise investment for some companies. Each would have to decide for themselves, but we can't predict there would be a universal rejection as you were suggesting.
:-)
(Right try again!)
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#168 aye_write
I know you have this secret passion for RE, but I think that particular position would stretch anyone's imagination!
Full marks for originality, but remember us old guys are easily shocked - no wonder it got referred.
:-)
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#146 Anaxim
- Notice how Salmond prioritises identity and culture over economic matters. -
Not to be confused with Calman who also prioritises identity and culture and so refuses to discuss economic matters?
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168 Take 2 :-D
I did not mean to post it before I'd read it back to myself :-S
160 Neil_Small147
"I sit on the fence,"
That phrase reminds me of a well known saying, "The perils of having one leg on either side of the fence: If you fall off you can hurt your... ! (Whereas if you have both legs on one side...)"
OK, I made it up! But I mean to say, while still deciding, remember to bear in mind your dignity.
"154 aye_right I'm talking about cost to the company regarding all sorts of admin changes. And a change of branding doesn't always produce results. (unless it is red-hot and applied appropriately!)"
Ouch! That brings us back to the credit crunch. Apparently in a recession it is not the best thing to apply cut backs universally. Rather, better to maintain spending on the most impartant things e.g. advertising is more crucial than ever, so it is a mistake to carelessly slash that budget.
I'd lump branding in with it, therefore if it costs, say, a few hundred pounds to acquire a new domain name (and it costs nothing to e-mail all your customers to tell them the change - a nice bit of advertising actually) plus the cost of new stationary, then this could well be a wise investment for some companies, for the cost of the outlay.
Each would have to decide for themselves, but we can't predict there would be a universal rejection as you were suggesting.
(Ignore #169!)
:-/
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170. oldnat
LOL!! Extremely funny...!
(Risqué - just what Brian's blog is all about!)
I have far too much respect for this bastion of impartiality that is our beloved BBC to impose any such naughties on aunty!
(Were you refering to the 'position of impartiality'? It is exceedingly vulgar.)
Mind you, maybe you've hit on it - s/he needs a bit if it and that's why s/he is so inescapably disagreeable?!
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#167 ForteanJo
Wheeling out the ad hominem 'Scottish Cringe' is just a standard nationalist way of shutting down debate.
My views on the 'Scottish brand' are pretty straightforward. It's failed to deliver, and it will continue to fail to deliver no matter how much time and energy are put into it.
We should copy the Germans and Japanese and concentrate on achieving excellence in Scottish goods and services. Not trying cheap tricks like underwriting taxes with oil money or piggy-backing the brand. The brand should grow from the product, not the other way around.
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Brian
Scottish Widows is a fairly considerable organisation and is not only staying in Edinburgh but will have the oversight of the Clerical Medical organisation. It is already a major player in the Lloyds TSB set up and will have its own main board director based here. How much more do you want? Especially when you consider the results produced by the HBoS head office and the fact that they had no idea that they were that bad even two months ago. Not a good advertisment for HBoS head office!
Perhaps they are lions led by donkeys; if so we can but hope that Lloyds will notice and only the incompetent will be looking for jobs. But don't hold your breath.
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I sit on the fence for a few reasons, one of which is that my list MSP is SNP and is an awful constituency politician. At least my Labour MP and MSP reply immediately - 2 letters in 12 years before you think I'm a serial complainer. Both times the SNP person ignored the letter, both which related to major issues with my local (Labour led ) council. You would have thought this person would have jumped at the opportunity to make political capital. One issue hit the local papers but again the SNP did nothing!
Constituency politics can be a bane for a politician, but that is their primary role.
Anyway, what's the earliest GB can call a general election? I think he's going to risk it.
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#167. ForteanJo
"Don't get too het up over anaxim's comments."
Of course you are right FJ, but I just felt like arguing with him/her (you know, as you do!). As there are folk out there who, seem to, sincerely hold Anaxim-type beliefs, I wonder what makes them tick??
Folkes IS something else! Though I think with his image and delivery he undermines himself quite well :-)
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Anaxim writes in reference to comment number 167:
"Wheeling out the ad hominem 'Scottish Cringe' is just a standard nationalist way of shutting down debate."
No Anaxim, comment 167 was a clear message to other posters to ignore your clearly provocative comment that used the phrase "ethnic shell".
Aside from comments exclaiming disgust at your clearly obnoxious choice of words you have indeed been ignored.
'Anaxim' has now joined the 'Reluctant - Expat' moniker on the 'treat with contempt' list.
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#174: anaxim - "We should copy the Germans and Japanese and concentrate on achieving excellence in Scottish goods and services"
How right you are. I mean, whisky is just a world renouned product, instantly linked to Scotland. Single malts are traded for thousands a bottle. What was I thinking - we should be following your model and concentrating on achieving excellence instead of messing about with single malts and bespoke blends.
Perhaps you do believe that the cry of "scottish cringe" is thrown at so many of your posts simply to shut down debate. Others would say it's because you do display all the symptoms of this particular negative affliction. Perhaps a little review of some of your posts will allow you to see yourself from another POV. Perhaps then you'd be in a better position to see why you seem to encounter that particular accusation so often.
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#176 Neil_Small147
In East Kilbride you have 5 SNP list MSPs - Linda Fabiani, Jamie Hepburn , Christina McKelvie, Alex Neil, John Wilson,
as well as Margaret Mitchell (Con) and Hugh O'Donnell (Lib-Dem).
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176. Neil_Small147
Would you vote for independence if your SNP MSP had responded? (No ans req.!) If so, I feel like writing to him/her myself!
;-)
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We can be excellent manufacturers and exporters once more. But we need independence. It's not just about receiving the benefit of what is rightfully ours to help us to this end it's about that confidence in our country and economy and people that comes with that. Independence is as much about restoring a real sense of self belief as it is about reinstating sovereignty and righting genuine wrongs. We'll never have that real confidence with the predominating insecurity of this union because there's no real security when your national destiny is in the control of others who have terrible previous form in this regard.
That's why there's always that feeling that Scotland doesn't enjoy a level playing field and that sense of hopelessness that at the very least has a latent grip on so many Scots. We need a shift in consciousness that only change on the scale of independence can create and bring. Else we'll remain in what is nothing more than an appalling demoralising quagmire of hemmed-in indecision and the perpetual belief that such visions and ambitions can only truly be realised elsewhere.
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180. At 11:20pm on 14 Dec 2008, oldnat wrote:
#176 Neil_Small147
In East Kilbride you have 5 SNP list MSPs - Linda Fabiani, Jamie Hepburn , Christina McKelvie, Alex Neil, John Wilson,
as well as Margaret Mitchell (Con) and Hugh O'Donnell (Lib-Dem).
I didn't give the name as that would probably break house rules. Suffice to say that the MSP concerned is the best known.
181. At 11:48pm on 14 Dec 2008, aye_write wrote:
176. Neil_Small147
Would you vote for independence if your SNP MSP had responded? (No ans req.!) If so, I feel like writing to him/her myself!
You'd probably not get a reply either! :D
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# 160 - Neil, if only you were right! Remember Broon and his heavies made sure that even the Labour MPs never mind the House as a whole as you appeared to suggest got to vote on it.
Westminster is a ridiculous ossified institution and Broon is a classic creature of it and the City.
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#183 Neil_Small147
Next time they're in East Kilbride - throw a pair of shoes at them!
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183. Neil_Small147
I knew you were going to 'pong' that one back, but I couldn't resist - you're right, they'd quite possibly resign!
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#182 Bluelaw
I don't think independence will help. It'll just lead to an entrenchment instead.
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#179 ForteanJo
The Scottish Cringe does not exist. No doctor can treat it, no psychiatrist can diagnose it. In a free society, no-one's political beliefs should be twisted into an 'affliction'.
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185. At 01:04am on 15 Dec 2008, oldnat wrote:
#183 Neil_Small147
Next time they're in East Kilbride - throw a pair of shoes at them!
Yeah, but they'd never be as cool as Bush was. The guy moved like lightning! At least he can do something right..............
I'm only surprised the shoe throwers never got shot!
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188. Anaxim
Re 'Scottish cringe' "No doctor can treat it"
Correct. It is up to those who are gripped by it to sort themselves out. 'Anaxim' sounds like some sort of medication - I think your comments will have cured many others! :->
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188. Anaxim, the nationalists have absolutely no positive contribution to offer, so it is to be expected for them to resort to such negative tactics instead.
We are regularly told by the nationalists how we live in the worst country in the world, how everything is falling apart, how we are doomed and how we are somehow 'oppressed by an imperialist colonial power'. They have also regularly resorted to labelling those who aren't pro-independence as 'cowards' and 'traitors' (two things they obviously wouldn't dare to say to peoples' faces!).
To label the same people as the 'Scottish Cringe' is just another example of this.
Some of the many reasons the independence campaign is being battered on the rocks as we speak. Even Shreck has accepted this and is all but mute nowadays, resorting to his predictable desperate tactic of wrapping himself in the flag, this time on yet another luxury junket.
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#191
Aw, you've found each other!
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#192 Rosencrantz and Guildenstern aren't dead after all......group hug eh lads, if that's not too existentialist for you.
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Neil - did your (Labour) constituency member fail you too? If not why go direct to the comparatively underfunded region list members?
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Reluctant-Expat
Re your 191.
Yet again you miss the point totally. I have never seen a poster, an Nat as you put it, or another, which for you at least seems to be all non Nats, say that Scotland is the worst country in the world.
Scotland is and always will be a great country, that at the moment is badly managed by Westminster, led by the London Labour Leader who hates the country of his birth and all the Scots who do not slavishly swallow his spin.
It would also appear that you are no slouch yourself at labeling people. Shreck!!! no wonder people treat your posts with the contempt they deserve.
You continue to swallow all the Brown spin if you like. The rest of us have the intelligence to look at events and make our own judgments.
P.S. See the Labour spin machine have dropped the spin about the delayed carrier contract meaning that less work will be contracted out. Now its only that the same work taking a year longer is good news. No one has explained yet just how a company carrying an extra years costs for the same work is good news.
Still you bought the spin.
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#174. Anaxim
More home work for you Slump in Japan firms' confidence It will make your time on honeymoon with expat more informative.
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Reluctant-Expat
Some battering on the rocks. In every election since 2007 the SNP share of the vote has increased.
As Robbie Dinwoodie said on Saturday "Move shows the honeymoon may be over for Salmond" One seat held and one man defecting to Labour.
Funny he forgot about the 14% increase the share of the vote the SNP had winning another seat in Ayrshire.
Changed days, Labour mark it as a great achievement holding on to a seat in Ayrshire.
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197. So support for both the SNP and for independence ISN'T falling?
Salmond has NOT retreated from his once-weekly (daily?) pro-independence/anti-UK publicity stunts?
Salmond has not been roundly humiliated over his swiftly changed Arcs of Prosperity?
(Rumour has it that the Irish radio hack who lambasted Labour over the Irish economy is now pretty peeved that Salmond still dropped Ireland from his second Arc anyway!)
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To be fair to Anaxim, his postings (if I've understood him correctly) stem from a principled belief that basing politics on any group identity (including "Britishness") is wrong, and that the individual transcends any community (with a possible exception for the local community).
I disagree with him, but it's a valid stance.
RE on the other hand is simply "against".
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Reluctant-Expat
Can you explain how an increase in the share of the vote at every election since May 2007 is support for the SNP falling?
If you keep saying it you think it may come true.
Lets see what the next election brings.
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#188 anaxim - "The Scottish Cringe does not exist. No doctor can treat it, no psychiatrist can diagnose it."
Except psychiatrists have diagnosed it and tried to understand it. This percularly scottish type of self-loathing is fairly unique and Lord Folkes is a particularly extreme example of the kind of views spouted by sufferers.
For more information, try reading some of the works of the psychiatrist Ronald David Laing (okay, I know he's a scot but try and look past that and understand his research).
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RE
I'm not afraid to call any British Nationalist Unionist a coward and a traitor to their face. Why should I be? Threatening violence are we? The idea that they might be betrays the weakness of their position surely.
The British Nationalist Unionist traitors and Quisling are lucky the Scots are such nice passive tolerant people. Any other country treated the way Scotland has been and there'd have been armed struggle against the British state.
We should have been independent at least a half a century ago. But we'll get there in the end.
Saor Alba!
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Anaxim
Why would it become more entrenched. Independence has seen Irish, Norwegian and other countries flourish and their identities revolutionised.
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Salmond hasn't abandoned the arc of prosperity argument at all. ALL these countries have problems as the UK has and ALL will go into a shorter and less steep a recession richer and emerge from recession richer than the UK too.
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From today's Scotsman
Norway has just announced that it is going to dip into its $332 billion oil fund to finance a spot of reflation.
The oil-rich Norwegians have squirreled away their oil revenues and now have the world?s largest sovereign wealth fund after Abu Dhabi.
According to the Financial Times, which has no political axe to grind, ?Oslo is one of the best-placed governments in the world to spend its way out of the downturn.?
Unlike the UK, which has been running a structural budget deficit for years, the Norwegians don?t have to borrow to boost public spending. The other week, Alistair Darling announced he was going to borrow £10,000 for every man, woman and child in Britain.
It is normal for Labour (and the Tories and Lib Dems) to berate the SNP ? erroneously - for wanting to pays the bills of an independent Scotland out of fluctuating oil revenues. In fact, it is the London Treasury which has always used erratic oil revenues for immediate revenue purposes ? which is why it always gets its sums wrong and has to resort either to borrowing or putting up taxes.
There is something deeply Freudian about blaming your political opponent for something you do yourself. In fact, the SNP has always supported the sort of oil fund run by the Norwegians, which saves fluctuating oil revenues in a capital fund.
Meanwhile, in Ireland, they have just pumped £9 billion into recapitalising their banks. Note: this is proportionately more (relative to the size of the Irish economy) than Alistair Darling put into recapitalising RBS, HBOS (R.I.P.) and Lloyds TSB.
So much for suggestions (on this side of the Irish Sea) that Ireland is too small a nation to protect its own financial system
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RE
I wont bother responding to most of your post which consists almost entirely of standing the actual facts on their head but if support for the SNP is dropping how come at the two actual by- elections held last Thursday the SNP achieved very significant increase in its vote and substantial swings away from Labour in both ?
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Someone was asking earlier when was the earliest time Brown could call an election - any time at all is the answer, but there is speculation that it might be earler rather than later.
Labour Books Advertising Hoardings for January
Maybe they want to wish us all a Happy New Year!
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#201 ForteanJo
There's nothing peculiarly Scottish about the made-up illness of the Scottish Cringe. It's a common tactic the world over. In Israel, it takes the form of the self-hating Jew.
In Russia and China, the authorities throw dissidents into mental hospitals, based on the 'illness' of disagreeing with the leadership. It avoids the need for a trial and the dissident's mind can be destroyed by 'treatment'.
Laing was concerned about the dubious nature of mental health diagnosis, so it's a bit surprising to hear that he endorsed the nationalist 'illness'. Have you got a cite?
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#193 InMyKip
:~)
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Alert
I become more and more convinced that there is a huge effort going on to lead Gordon Brown into a General Election ambush.
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#208 Anaxim - there are various sites analysing the root causes of the scottish cringe. Many cite Laings work which placed the blame squarely at the feet of our Calvanist inheritence. This led Laing to assert that "Calvinism has done more damage to Scotland than drugs ever did".
Of course, there are those who take the opposite view, that far from suffering from a scottish cringe, scots have an inate superiority complex. Indeed, this argument have been championed by the likes of the historian Niall Ferguson (who actually proposed Scotland should be liquidised lock stock and barrel in part to combat this). However, those who have analysed Ferguson's argument believe that the opposite is actually the case, that the "scottish swagger", as Ferguson puts it, is over-compensation, like the small dog who barks the loudest.
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Let the swagger and cringe die as both are reactions to the external. Let the Scots become truly happy in their skin. Let's see them have the quiet but assertive confidence of prosperous healthy independent people.
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212. bluelaw
When taking the long view, it seems obvious that all this consternation over independence lives securely in the history books. It's just a matter of how soon it gets left there. Post-independence history writers will understand the arguments against independence as social analysts explain the odd. (We wait :-) )
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Just guarding against Glenrothes-style complacency and readying for the final push ;-)
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214
Oh, totally - keep putting your views out there!
(If I had stacks of time I'd start a really cool website nicking all the clever views and packaging them for the 'uninclined' voter (funky and engaging), factually persuasive with only very careful and appropriate use of emotive stuff...just have to watch it didn't backfire!)
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RE
The facts
The results of the last four local by-elections held in Scotland in 2008 is as follows:
PARTY
VOTES
%
% CHANGE
SNP
6,360
35.9%
+8.7%
Labour
6,807
38.4%
-1.4%
Tory
2,001
11.3%
-1.2%
LibDem
1,314
7.4%
-0.3%
Other
1,248
7.0%
-5.8%
A 5.1% swing Labour to SNP
The following local by-elections took place in since 6th November 2008:
Forth (Edinburgh) 6th November 2008
Baillieston (Glasgow) 6th November 2008
Ballochmyle (East Ayrshire) 11th December 2008
Kilbirnie & Beith (North Ayrshire) 11th December 2008
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215
aye-right - just do it as the ad goes. It'd be a honour to be paraphrased ;-)
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Brian:
It is sad, that the bank went out on a whimper...
~Dennis Junior~
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