The ultimate sacrifice
My father served in the RAF during World War II.
Sundry other family members have served in the armed forces, notably the Black Watch.
So I observed the silence at the eleventh hour today - admittedly while driving through the Grassmarket in Edinburgh, listening to the wireless.
It may be my imagination but I think the guys shepherding the traffic through the semi-permanent roadworks in that thoroughfare appeared to be bowing their heads a little in acknowledgement of the hour.
It is a tiny gesture, a scintilla of respect for sacrifice made.
Dignified silence
Further, one may protest against war and militarism yet offer respect to those who fought and died.
At the very least, they and their descendants are entitled to dignified silence, if that is what they request.
I must confess that I have little patience with those who attach notes of protest to their commemoration. It seems to me those are for another day, another hour.
I'm 
© MMX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~45~RS~)
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We operate in a controlled environment as far as political coverage is concerned in Scotland and some people have to use whatever forums are available.
Everyone who stood in silence for those who perished in wars will have had respect for them.
However, a justifiable use of the freedoms that they died for is that we draw attention to those who were culpable for their deaths when remembering them.
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I applaud the gathering strength in this annual commemoration of those who died, most in absolute futility, as a result of the greatest folly in the history of our world.
It is often said that if we do not learn and understand our history we are condemned to repeat our mistakes.
And we have over the last century repeated them on many occasions.
Can any person actually claim with any validity that the only way to deal with Saddam Hussian was to twice invade his country and kill perhaps half a million mostly innocent civilians and in the process set in place such a level of hate and misunderstanding between the different peoples of this world that we are almost guaranteed continuous war at a variety of levels as long as most of us will live.
My father's father died as a result of gas in the trenches. My mother lost six cousins - Drummonds, Campbells, Moncurs and Moncriefes in the bloody fields of Flanders, dead most of them before she was born.
Many of their surviving families left Scotland for Canada and Australia to try to excise the pain.
Britain lost about 900,000 men in the First War (of which around 80,000 were Irish which puts the idiotic behaviour of handful who disgraced Celtic last Saturday into context). Scotland contributed over 129,000 - about twice our population share - and whole areas of rural and Highland Scotland lost almost every able bodied young man. Virtually no family in Scotland was left untouched and we must never forget the utter and absolute futility of war.
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Lest we forget!
"Letter to The Times - A Soldier's Declaration
I am making this statement as an act of wilful defiance of military authority, because I believe that the War is being deliberately prolonged by those how have the power to end it. I am a soldier, convinced that I am acting on behalf of soldiers. I believe this War, upon which I entered as a war of defence and liberation, has now become a war of aggression and conquest. I believe that the purposes for which I and my fellow-soldiers entered upon this War should have been so clearly stated as to have made it impossible for them to be changed without our knowledge, and that, has this been done, the objects which actuated us would now be attainable by negotiation.
I have seen and endured the sufferings of the troops, and I can no longer be a party to prolonging those sufferings for ends which I believe to be evil and unjust.
I am not protesting against the military conduct of the War, but against the political errors and insincerities for which the fighting men are being sacrificed.
On behalf of those who are suffering now, I make this protest against the deception which is being practiced on them. Also I believe that it may help to destroy the callous complacence with which the majority of those as home regard the continuance of agonies which they do not share, and which they have not sufficienct imagination to realise.
Seigfried Sassoon, written June 15, 1917"
Sassoon was not alone, many men who fought in the Great war became Remembrance Day refuseniks. To them glorifying the dead in this way was the biggest deception of all.
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I marked it with my silence and briefly imagined, or tried to imagine what it must have been like to have been in a trench waiting to go over the top. I don't think it's my place to protest my anger over war and the Establishment's part in it at such a time but I have it noted nonethless. In a sense these commemorations don't belong to me but those who died and those who survived.
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I guess you'll have little patience for this comment, Brian.
Honouring the dead in WWI is not the same as honouring the dead in WWII, and not the same as honouring the dead in our current adventures in the Middle East.
Honouring dead volunteers is not the same as honouring the dead among those that were conscripted against their will.
Honouring those who repeatedly commit murder in our name is not the same as honouring those who were blown to pieces before ever firing a shot.
The problem is that we are all expected to honour them equally on the eleventh hour, something that I don't think is right or fair.
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Those who sacrificed life or limb in war did so to protect freedoms, including the freedom of speech. However, we should never forget that those who survive are entitled to the freedom of remembering their comrades in a respectful manner. That still leaves 364 other days in the year for others to protest (363 if you're in the USA).
Am I missing something or is this really simple logic?
This was a lovely post to start my day with on the other side of the Pond.
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I must say, I am glad to hear the intelligence and wisdom of folk on this thread.
The current spate of wars we are in are not about defending ourselves or our freedoms. The Middle east conquests are exactly that... conquests... agressive wars for power and global domination and control.
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5. At 2:43pm on 11 Nov 2008, Kurisu wrote:
I guess you'll have little patience for this comment, Brian.
Honouring the dead in WWI is not the same as honouring the dead in WWII, and not the same as honouring the dead in our current adventures in the Middle East.
Honouring dead volunteers is not the same as honouring the dead among those that were conscripted against their will.
Honouring those who repeatedly commit murder in our name is not the same as honouring those who were blown to pieces before ever firing a shot.
The problem is that we are all expected to honour them equally on the eleventh hour, something that I don't think is right or fair.
---------------
There is always one isn't there?
I'm ex-forces and I am sick to the back teeth of comments describing Armed Forces personnel as "murderers".
If that is your opinion, I suggest you contact the police immediately.
People do NOT join the forces to kill. They accept they might have to but that goes with the job.
They also carry out humanitarian relief work incluing assisting disasters in the UK.
I suggest you remember this should you ever require assistance.
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'I must confess that I have little patience with those who attach notes of protest to their commemoration. It seems to me those are for another day, another hour.'
There are 364 days of the year when anyone can protest their views on war. We only ask for two minutes to remember our dead. Have some respect for those who laid down their lives.
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I'm never sure where this notion of people defending freedoms comes from. I don't say this to mock those who are rightly remembered but because I believe it to be of high political importance - certainly during the build up to Iraq we were told not to criticise lest we dishonour the troops, lowering their morale. It was seen as wrong to suggest that they were not defending our freedoms.
With the exception of WWII I don't see where this defence of our freedom comes from. It certainly wasn't there in WWI. Do they mean Britain's freedom, or mine? There seems to be this curious notion that freedom of speech and war are somehow connected, but surely that is a progressive principle of liberty which the army has done more to suppress (through the centuries and in the name of the crown) than any other national institution?
I agree with the previous posts, that those who fought grimly against probable invasion in the darkest days of World War 2 were a different breed from the volunteers of WW1 or today's career soldiers. When I think of the cenotaph, and of the poppy wreaths, I think three things. Firstly, I consider my unwavering contempt for the social constructs which pushed so many young men off to France in the First World War, and promise myself I will never fall victim to that kind of jingoistic nonsense. Secondly, I think of the true bravery of those who stood up to the Nazis in the face of near certain defeat to protect their homelands and families. Thirdly, I think of the cynical exploitation of the day by media, by politicians, and by all the others who turn the 11th of November into an oddly militaristic victory parade, seeking another generation to sacrifice. They look sad and say never again, but they still send our boys and girls half way round the world, and look the other way while the UK exports a billion dollars worth of weapons every year to kill somebody else's boys and girls.
Let's hope greater independence for Scotland leads us to become a country less inspired to get involved in other people's wars.
A day for sadness and hope.
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It honestly makes me ashamed that some of the people that post on this are fellow countrymen sometimes.
I respect wholeheartedly your right to disagree with my, or others political viewpoints, but to take such a distasteful, and disrespectful attitude towards those who have fought to give you those freedoms when using them is something some of the posters above should be ashamed of.
There are many people who, quite justifiably, would make the case against military action in many circumstances. Such people usually do so in the capacity of having respect for our soldiers and the job they have to do. Their case however is frequently undermined by the selfish, arrogant, misunderstood comments made by some.
This astounding ignorance of people, accompanied by their inability to be respectful for just one day of the year is a sad sight to see.
Please do grow up.
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My father had the distinction of being at Dunkirk and Singapore; arguably the two biggest fiascos in British military history. He was a volunteer, and idealist who wanted to do his bit against Hitler. In 1945, after three and a half years of enforced slavery he returned, physically and mentally a broken man. He had done much for his country but it seems that his country was not prepared to do much for him when the war ended. Effectively, he relived the war every day in his head. I can remember that he was invited to attend the ceremony at Cenotaph in London sometime in the 1960s. He refused to go. It was obvious that this was something he simply could not cope with. Of course we must remember with gratitude those who made the supreme sacrifice to guarantee our freedom, especially in WWII, which of all wars must have been the most just. But equally we have a debt to those that survived. We should honour the remnants of the WWII generation before they slip into history. This should not be done once a year but every day of every year.
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t_mike
Exactly!
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The Great War was not about freedom, nor democracy, nor fighting a great evil. It was a war between imperial powers, a war where millions of soldiers were sacrificed in the name of a select group of people who wanted the world to have a particular shade of colour on a map.
The Great War, the war to end all wars, spawned facism, the many shades of communism, WW2 and the Cold War where many more millions of innocent people died.
90 years on and we are still glorifying the dead in the way that another select group of people say we must. We have become brain-washed.
Remembrance Day has become another state controlled ritual where the demand is that we must all behave and think the same. Look at the BBC's annual wordage on this matter - it is like a scratched record.
Many soldiers from the Great War were repulsed by such conformity of state controlled grief. Glorifying the dead in this was was to them the ultimate betrayal of their feelings and their memories. They didn't need one day out of the 365 to remember their dead comrades. They remembered every day.
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#5. Kurisu
Well, well, well Kurisu.
I'm sure that you're only writing that to wind people up. If not, then you really are one of life's true ignoramuses.
Soldiers of WW1 and 2 were not only solely conscripts; large amounts were volunteers albeit perhaps caught up in patriotism. As patriotism tends to do, it stirs the blood of younger men who went to fight and die for democracy or to protect the British way of life.
Perhaps today?s wars are less about democracy however our young soldiers who pay the ultimate price do so because they are in the military and as part of that military are destined to ' conduct their duty in implementing British interests at home and abroad'. They, in effect, have no choice but to go to places at the Governments behest and don?t have the same freedoms as you so obviously protest.
These conflicts include Bosnia, Rwanda and Kosovo in order to stop large scale human rights abuses whilst you sit in cowardly comfort in front of your TV or laptop, critically commenting with your sandals on.
I amongst others will remember all sacrifices (unwilling as they don?t elect to die) with a little dignity. I will remember friends and colleagues who have been injured, lost limbs and are mentally affected including the families that it impacts. I don?t think that it would take too much for people like you to shut up for one day and enjoy protesting for the remainder of the year.
Peace Brother
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#10 t_mike wrote:
"Let's hope greater independence for Scotland leads us to become a country less inspired to get involved in other people's wars."
Well said. The same applies to Wales too.
If I might add that WWII arose from the mistakes of the 'victorious allies', particularly President Wilson, in the aftermath of the Great War through 'punishing' Germany with reparations so huge that it devastated the country's economy and assisted Hitler's rise to power.
Politicians have a lot to answer for, then and now.
#8 Neil_Small147 wrote:
"There is always one isn't there?"
I agree with Kurisu, that there is something which honours militarism about the commemorations. As a republican, I have a distaste for the long association which the royal family has with the forces. For me, this is typified by the Queen's grandson's strong desire to serve in Afghanistan and some of the things he did while there, such as directing aircraft to bomb Afghan villages, when almost impossible to know if there were innocent civilians, including women and children at risk. Hamid Karsai, the President, installed by the US in 2003, has been deeply critical of the extent of civilian deaths as a result of the bombing by US and British aircraft.
If someone volunteers for such service, is there no culpability? Are they absolved of responsibility once under orders? I would add that our political leaders are culpable, as are we, the electorate for electing them.
Personally, if we are to honour the sacrifice made by so many who had little choice but to fight, might the tone of the commemorations be much less military in nature? The wearing of uniforms and medals is not necessary, in my opinion, neither is the flying of military flags and standards.
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I'd rather see our veterans honoured by being given the help, whether financial, medical or any other kind, that they need to live their life as well as possible after their job is done.
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# 10 t_mike
There is very little on your post that I disagree with. Normally those who send the troops off to war (be they volunteers or conscripted) are usually to old to fight and die. However, the act of rememberence is not about the political follies that have led us to war but all about those who have fought and died. We are not commemorating the act of war but the actions of those brave men and women who have laid down their lives for us.
When the rememberence is over, please feel free to attack the decisions that have led those poor people to their deaths.
Let us also not forget that our enemies have also suffered and died for their country.
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# 15 amicusalba
Well said.
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It is indeed a sombre and appropriately respectful day. I remember years ago in primary school if the 11th fell during a school day we all stood for the minute silence and our teacher who in those days was most likely one of the poor spinsters bereft of their young men who died on the battlefront. Do they still have the silence in schools and if not, why not?
One of the most moving moments of my life was when my Uncle and I visited the National Memorial at Edinburgh Castle and sought out the page for the Argylls and saw the name of my late, great uncle, "blown" as my Grannie said, "to atoms". A mere 17 year old boy. The so-called Great War was a detestable war. Men under the 'caring leadership' of the likes of Haig and his 'attrition' policy were slaughtered in a manner that would have the SSPCA down on you if you treated animals in the same way.
True, Haig worked hard on behalf of post war veterans but NEVER, ever accepted that his strategy was wrong logistically and more importantly morally. He was a true donkey who led the lions!
We must also think of our dear Royal Family who trot out each Remembrance Sunday to lay wreaths. I'm not for one minute suggesting that the Queen, Philip and the rest are insincere but I would most assuredly point my finger at King George V and Queen Mary who at best were ambivalent about the 1st war and at worst pro-German. Indeed it is known that Georgie communicated from time time with his 1st cousin Willy (Kaiser Wihelm II) by letter and telephone. What did they discuss I wonder? Perhaps Georgie asked for suggestions from Willy as to what name he could take to replace his VERY German surname, Saxe Coburg Gotha/Teck/Battenberg/Schleswig-Holstein etc..
The Great War was unnecessary and immoral based as it was on dynastic ambitions. One wonders how many Einsteins or Alexander Flemings we lost on those killing fields.
The WW2 was an entirely different thing indeed. We faced a deranged foe or as churchill called them, "gangsters" who wanted to drag us all into a dark age. Unlike WW1, we HAD to go to war. If there can really be a just war then WW2 was it. It fills my heart with pride and gratitude to see these old soldiers now well into their 80's marching along in memory of their fallen friends, comrades and family.
WW2 brought the war to the home front with bombings of civilians. Towns like Clydebank and to a lesser extent Greenock were devastated by the blitz. So when we remember the, 'old brigaders', let us remember too the wives and mothers who fought the fight in their own way by keeping the factories and homes going. Also we must remember the WAAFs and the WACS and of course the Land Army. Their names should be, 'carved with pride'.
I hope that in 90 years time there will still be those who will say, We shall remember them.
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We would be better to remember the Great War by annually exposing the guilty men, the politicians and the generals, who threw away the lives of over 2 million young men in a war as pointless and stupid as it was barbaric.
There was no greatness in that Great War , no glory in falling wounded in a trench very often to drown, in being forced over the top still smeared in the entrails of soldiers who had been standing alongside you only a few minutes before and who in many cases was your brother or cousin and hell's damnation assuredly waiting for the officers who had shot for cowardice the many young men who broke and ran under conditions most of can scarcely imagine. And for what. So the "victorious" could sow the seeds of the Second World War by imposing on Germany a settlement so draconion and so insulting that it led directly to the rise of Hitler.
There are a few commenting on this issue who seem to have missd to point. Nobody is trying to trivialise the sacrifice made by our soldiers but we should never forget the dense and wicked stupidity of those who sent them to their deaths and many, including myself, rather wonder whether many of the ceremonies we see every year are honouring the dead or, instead, are allowing some of our public figures to bask in undeserved reflected glory.
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#20 Aye they had a minutes silence at my kids primary school today . They also had to give a pound each for their poppy.
#12 Thats about the first time ive agreed with anything youve said ! But its true ... too little people really care about the past or realize how lucky they are just now.
#10 Aye its sad that we are involved with supplying the weapons used in a lot of these wars nowadays... for example Britain allowed the export of military weapons and parts to both Georgia and the Russians. In the past they equiped Saddam Hussain with various weaponry .... and further back the CIA supplied the Afghans with weapons to fight the Russians ...which are now being used against our own troops. If you watch a program on one of the sattellite channels called Future Weapons its scary what the Americans are up to. They will never win a war and i hope they realize this or it will never end. They cannot beat a guerilla war in countrys like Afghanistan or Iraq, the problem is a lot of the money for the Taliban comes from Saudi and they are supposed to be allies.
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I went to the Remembrance Sunday parade at our war memorial as usual - increased numbers this year, there must have been around 400 in our small town.
I go in memory of my parent's generation who suffered so much in the mass wars of the 20th century, and in celebration of the determination that many of them had that a new Europe would never allow that to happen again.
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Everyone is entitled to an opinion , but they only have the right to air that opinion in public because of the sacrifice of all of the soldiers being remembered today. War may not be the answer to humanities problems, but in most of the wars this country has been involved in in the last 100 years, it was the only alternative . Turning the other cheek may sound good, but with the attitude to life and freedom of today's enemy turning the other cheek could be fatal.
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Brian,
You've got it oh so wrong.
Acts of defiance and political statement can be the true remembrance of those who've died in order for that very activity to take place.
Who exactly are YOU to criticise the way people remember their dead?
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Ok, after thinking about this, I became even more annoyed with you Brian. You wrote at the end of a remembrance piece:
"I must confess that I have little patience with those who attach notes of protest to their commemoration. It seems to me those are for another day, another hour."
Haven't you added your own little note of protest to your commemoration? Perhaos you could have kept it for another day? Another hour?
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#25 irnbru_addict
Surely, it can't just be irn bru that your addicted to?
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Whether a war is worth fighting at all is the stuff of politics, and rightly so.
The Great War and World War II did take place, and failing to show proper respect to the memory of those who paid the ultimate price in the name of their country - willing or otherwise - is the most unacceptable of indignities.
I have no doubt that, but for the courage of those who went before, the expression of political views contrary to Governmental policy (such as in response to a BBC blog) is just one of many, many freedoms we would all have been denied.
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#28 The_Forfarian
My Dad would have strongly disagreed with part of your post.
He fought in North Africa and Italy, and felt that the sacrifices his generation made in WWII did protect the freedoms you talk about.
However, he loathed Imperialism and grieved for the lives that were wasted on all sides in Imperialist wars. He was incandescent about the Suez war because he had believed that WWII had brought about the end of Imperialism.
He honoured the British dead of WWI (among them a number of relatives), but he also honoured the dead of every other nation in that vicious conflict, and the needless waste of life in a power struggle between empires.
Those who died in WWI were not "defending freedom". Only the power of the Empire was under threat - not freedom.
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What is glorious about death? I can think of only one "just" war in the last couple of centuries and that was WW2. There should have been other "just" wars eg in Rwanda,Biafra etc but these benighted places just did not attract the white feather club. Me,cynical? Very much so!
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t_mike, I'm not sure about the great contrast you wish to draw between the men who volunteered in WW1 and WW2 ('a different breed' you state).
Like most of my generation, my Dad fought in WW2; my Grandad in WW1.
You seem to applaud my Dad, but not his father. Yes, there was jingoism in WW1, but what made a generation volunteer was the invasion of 'little Belgium' by an invading German army. They went in their tens of thousands from all over Scotland; often in solidarity with workmates and others from their communities. I'll salute them both and all those who didn't make it back.
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I find myself in full agreement with Brian. I see this as a time for remembering all of those who served, regardless of the particular war being fought or the reasons behind it.
To observe a few moments of silence, or even to wear a poppy, seems like the very least we can do to pay tribute to their sacrifices.
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#31 JimmyG
"whether or not it will stand the test of time is for later." - it is now later."Yes, there was jingoism in WW1, but what made a generation volunteer was the invasion of 'little Belgium' by an invading German army."
David Hutt, Canon of Westminster in 2002 aptly contextualised this motivation.
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I say these words as one who experienced active service and the loss of a colleague in one of Britain's nasty little colonial wars.
We should not glorify war with the awful remembrances of the mass murdering politician or general and their lies, your country needs you or dulce et decorum est pro patria mori.
Instead we should remember the voices of the slain, the "angry and defrauded young" with the words of Kipling, "If any question why we died, Tell them, because our fathers lied".
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It's now "another day".
My father-in-law told the tale of the best sniper in his platoon who once said to him (I won't try to write in Glaswegian) - "Sir, this is great. They'd hang me for this back in Glasgow."
He was no "hero". He was a sociopath who enjoyed killing, and was good at it. He proved useful in war time, but let's not pretend that he had any social virtue.
If he had been German, he would have been a Nazi and would have enjoyed his work as an extermination guard.
Any suggestion that all "British" troops should automatically be considered as "defending freedom and justice" is hypotrical cant.
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As usual, the nationalists are determined to forever take the low road on whatever the matter.
They have to be seen opposing the UK in every way possible, even if it means insulting the dead.
The sooner this tediously pathetic element of our society is sent back into the shadows, along with their horrendous 'political' party, the sooner Scotland can return to the 21st century.
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Of course these brave people fought and died ostensibly to preserve our freedoms (in reality they were to preserve Empire) and we should honour that by asking tough questions of those who purport to lead us at all times. But as Brian hinted at and I agree there is a certain insensitivity about the white poppy brigade at such a time.
I have problems with much of the symbolism of Remembrance day. I dislike the Establishment and indeed Royalty featuring so prominently because I believe they support the mindset that cared little for wasting the lives of mainly working people particularly in WW1. Of course incomparable to Haig et al but pertinent all the same is the example just last week concerning Prince William's casual use of military equipment for personal use and leaving other 'lessers' to face the music exemplifies this disregard perfectly for me. I also think it is part of the reason why Pensions in this country which affects so many of these noble Veterans are nowhere near as generous for example and quite ironically of that of the Germans whose pensioners I am reliably informed do not have to worry about winter fuel payments and who simply look much richer and indeed healithier in some ways. Who were the victors indeed.
However, if they, the Royals and Politicians etc head our State and therefore represent us as a people it is of course right that they lead the commemorations. It is only right that we do commemorate what happened with all the ceremony we can muster. We mustn't forget what happened and we must allow those that suffered and died to have their day and they have every right to expect our selflessness and indeed our gratitude at such a time. For my humble part they very much do.
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relctant ex-pat. The SNP were unforgivably prevented from attending the Cenotaph commemorations by Thatcher so don't lecture Nationalists on Remembrance day commemorations because you have no right to the moral high ground in these things.
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If I had my way I would have the Royal family and all of the political elite crawl on all fours before the Cenotaph to pray for forgiveness of the dead and the families of the dead. That way it would be Rememberance Day that no one would ever forget.
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"So I observed the silence at the eleventh hour today - admittedly while driving through the Grassmarket in Edinburgh, listening to the wireless."
So the sum total of your observance was in not attempting to retune your radio in [hopefully] vain search for a station not observing the silence. Nothing to crow about.
"I think the guys shepherding the traffic ... appeared to be bowing their heads a little"
Wherever officialdom could have intervened, traffic should have been brought to a standstill, with all traffic lights at red, roadsigns showing STOP.
(People are by instinct decent, and advance notice of such a circumstance would assuredly have been shown 'proper' respect.)
--
The "silence" should be a break from normal everyday activity, a time for reflection, and carrying on regardless (but without speaking) seems a poor show.
It invariably incenses me that the director of the BBC coverage feels it necessary to cut and dissolve various live images an indecent number of times during the two minutes (both on Remembrance Sunday and on Armistice Day) - just aim a camera at the Cenotaph and leave it for two minutes; is that too much for which to ask?
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Neil Small wrote:
"People do NOT join the forces to kill. They accept they might have to but that goes with the job."
... so you CHOSE a profession where you knew you might have to kill innocent people?
sorry neil, joining the forces was your decision and your decision only. I don't need your protection and neither do any of my family. I have grandparent's who died in WW2 on both the German side and UK side and what when I consider the words "Least we forget", I remember that war is futile and no one ever wins.
I do not support those who chose a career which involves the potential for destruction of life... and I'm damned well proud of it.
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Our military and their families are still suffering today but presently not on the same scale as WW1 and WW2.
Until someone is in the position of losing a member of their family or seeing them seriously maimed for life, they can have little concept of the pain and isolation, in many cases, that are involved.
It's such a pity when bodybags arrive back in the UK that we don't absolutely insist that the UK government pays respect at the scene instead of the platitudes issued at PMQs each week.
In fact it's not a pity, it's a disgrace.
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#41 Bongo1
Well, you are entitled to your opinion.
But I hope you are never in a position where you require assistance from the Armed Forces. Since you obviously do not like them then should you be the victim of a disaster where the military provide assistance to the civilian emergency services, then they should ignore you.
The military help out in a lot of cases: the hurricane in the 1980s - the military were use en masse to provide support. Lockerbie, the RAF provide the bulk of the personnel who had to clear up the aftermath. Kigali in Africa in the 1990s, the RAF airlifted two field hospitals to stop people dying.
Many people join the Armed Forces as a way of getting themselves out of poverty. Most succeed in getting education, fitness, pride and discipline. Many then take these attributes into business when they leave.
But, if you would rather they don't join and end up in a life of crime or poverty, then fair enough.
War IS futile. But until the human race grows up we will need a military force.
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"#27. At 8:32pm on 11 Nov 2008, amicusalba wrote:
#25 irnbru_addict
Surely, it can't just be irn bru that your addicted to?"
Nah, coke too! =;o)
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#41, BoNGO_1:
"... so you CHOSE a profession where you knew you might have to kill innocent people?"
What a vile comment.
Whilst innocent people might die (for a variety of reasons), where is the evidence to support your assertion that the military takes a decision to kill innocents?
You say you don't need the protection of the military - perhaps not now, but that is almost entirely due to the gallantry of those long dead.
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#41, BoNGO_1:
"I do not support those who chose a career which involves the potential for destruction of life..."
So that would include anyone who drives any sort of motor vehicle; anyone engaged in manufacture, distribution, retail of tobacco or alcohol; anyone in the building trades; etc., etc., etc. In short, anyone and everyone!!!
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Ian Bell in todays Herald captures the debate exactly - "honest deaths in dishonest wars"
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41. BoNGO_1:"I do not support those who chose a career which involves the potential for destruction of life... and I'm damned well proud of it."
Clearly you would never join the military, so on behalf of the entire UK armed forces, our nation which depends on them, our friends who rely on them for their defence and who work with them...
Phew!
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So far as the experience of war goes there was nothing special about the First World War; for those who took part in it the danger, the suffering, the discomfort and hardships were no different from other wars. Those who died ended up just as dead as those who fell at Waterloo.
What was different and why we have Remembrance Day, was the sheer scale of the fighting which in turn demanded the creation of the biggest army in British history and that in turn meant the wholesale conscription of hundreds of thousands of young men who otherwise would never have gone near the armed forces. The result was that for the first time the war affected the whole spectrum of British society. War and the effects of war were no longer something that happened far away; British soldiers were now part of society, not standing apart from it.
Those of us who have served in the armed forces will still to some extent remain apart from those who have never heard the nasty crack of a high velocity round going close overhead, or seen or been party to or done any of the things which soldiers are routinely expected to do, but at least Remembrance Day exists. It is not simply a matter of “remembering” those individuals from every family in the country who served, suffered or died; for as the collect says “at the going down of the sun and in the morning we will remember them”. Rather it is a matter of Remembering that all those who served and still serve in the armed forces were/are somebody’s fathers, mothers, sons, daughters, brothers, sisters, uncles or aunts, and that we are all responsible for what they do and suffer in all our names.
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#48, in what bizzarre way do you suggest that our nation relies on the military? As far as I was aware, the last person threatening to invade the UK was Hitler and the Argentinians were only trying to reclaim their rightful land that the Brittish Empire stole in the first place.
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#45 The_Forfarian wrote:
"#41, BoNGO_1:
... so you CHOSE a profession where you knew you might have to kill innocent people?"
"What a vile comment.
Whilst innocent people might die (for a variety of reasons), where is the evidence to support your assertion that the military takes a decision to kill innocents?"...
Oh, how you twist the meaning of words...
where did I say "that the military takes a decision to kill innocents?"... I said "Those who join the military know they might have to kill innocent people?"
"You say you don't need the protection of the military - perhaps not now, but that is almost entirely due to the gallantry of those long dead"...
What a lot of brainwashed primative rubbish. There are tons of nations which do not have any considerable armed forces or nuclear deterrent and they do not live in this same false fear.
Wake up for hecks sake and get off your misplaced patriotic trip.
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While I applaud much of Caledonian54's post I am in no way responsible for our forces being in Iraq or Afghanistan fighting politicians' wars excused to us on lies.
Let me put it simply again. A lot of people on this post are drawing a distinction between the very often brave sacrifice made by our troops and the strutting about at war memorials by those who have been in no front line but represent the large scale deceit and dishonesty that sends and has sent these same soldiers on the back of lies into immoral, illegitimate imperial wars.
Or to put it even more simply. The real reason for the strengthening of the Taleban in Afghanistan is our presence there and the real reason for our presence there is the pipelines that can carry oil out of the central Asian republics to Iran and Iraq.
I did my two minutes silence for those thousands of relatives I should have and don't have because of the carnage inflicted on my family and every family in Scotland in the course of the absurd Great War.
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Like sneckedagain, I thought Caledonian54's post caught the right tone.
andI can understand that those who have fought will have additional experiences to consider at Remembrance than I have.
However, the tendency by some to concatenate the suffering of those who have been the victims of war with the decisions of politicians to create these wars is abhorrent.
And the stupidity of politicians is not over yet -
Jonathon Steele in the Guardian and Mary Dejevsky in the Independent both have good articles about the Georgian war, and the the West's reaction to it.
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#44 irn_bru addict
"Nah, coke too! =;o)"
Touche! ;-)
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#33 oldnat, thanks for patronising me with the nifty copy and paste!
Mind you, it was from 2002 so maybe my Grandad wouldn't have been aware of it when he volunteered. Now... get back to my point.. my Dad and his Dad are somehow 'different breeds'?
btw it turns my gut to see Brown et al laying their wreaths. The tragedy of war! The pity of war! War must only be a last resort. Total hypocrites.
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Brian:
I also, did my part during the ...time of silence...
Thanks for your father and the others who did there part in the war effort...
~Dennis Junior~
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