Slainte mhath
What a difference a day makes? On GMS yesterday, the Chancellor was confronted with claims that the Scotch whisky industry was being unfairly hit by the detailed implementation of his tax plans.
He had told MPs that he was simply offsetting the cut in VAT by increasing duty.
The industry thought otherwise, as we reported. They said the new duty outpaced the VAT cut.
By Reporting Scotland and Newsnight Scotland last night, the Chancellor had acknowledged and addressed the issue.
Today he intends to table reforms to sort the problem - and ensure that Scotch isn't disadvantaged.
Slainte mhath.
I'm 
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~37~RS~)
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If Alistair Darling can get something like this wrong, what else has he got wrong in the PBR?
The reality is that the PBR is another 'dodgy dossier'.
It takes less than 45 minutes for Labour to pick your pockets.
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Is that it then Brian?
Darling denied the claim was true yesterday, was he ignorant or was he lying?
This has to be the fastest 'U' turn in political history and follows on the heals of the revelation that an increase in VAT is being considered - no wait, that's an administrative error, it must be true because Douglas Fraser says so on his blog.
Anyone see the little propoganda piece on the national BBC 10 o'clock news last night? It involved a 'poll' carried out by Progressive Scottish Opinion that purported to show support for independence being hit by the banking crisis.
The 'poll' was nothing of the sort and was one of those carefully worded questions designed to elicit the required response.
The question went along the lines of:
Has the banking crisis made you more supportive of independence or less supportive?
24% more, 42% less, 34% don't know.
This is the kind of 'balance' we are now used to in Scotland, coming at a time when Labour finds itself in serious trouble.
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And we are supposed to trust this man with the country's money he can't be believed in anything he says. I much more believe Mr Hosie who said there had been correspondence between the two Governments.
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What a hearty message to sent to his fellow Scots, and just before Christmas.
Slainte mhath Mr Darling, Good Health!
James, Leith.
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No 3
Yes, I saw Wee Glen interviewing Darling last night and he simply let Darling away with using his carefully worded statement that the Scottish Government hadn't contacted the Treasury on any SPECIFIC capital project.
Both Darling and Campbell knew what Darling had done, he had given the impression that the SNP were liars when they said that the Treasury had been contacted no fewer than three times in order to seek approval on the principle of bringing forward capital projects.
Hosie confirmed this after the interview but Brewer didn't take the Labour MSP to task in the studio, despite Iain Gray suggesting that the SNP were dragging their heals over capital projects.
This is why Glen Campbell is derided by non Unionists, the man is so transparently unprofessional as to beggar belief.
Had the question been asked of an SNP minister, Campbell would have sought clarification of the statement, make no mistake.
"Are you saying minister that you were never contacted on the subject of bringing forward capital projects?"
Darling would have had to come clean and the little ruse would have ended.
Campbell, as I have said, let the comment go unchallenged.
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And I thought the 10p tax band was a quick u-turn, soon he'll be Alistair 'Rocket Fuel Disaster' Darling.
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Today:
Peter Mandelson calls on banks to REDUCE the cost of borrowing.
40 minutes later:
Northern Rock, a nationalised bank, INCREASES it's mortgage rates.
It takes less than 45 minutes for Labour to pick your pockets.
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Not very confidence-inspiring. Worrying, in fact. Very worrying. Not an impressive performance at all. Incompetence such as this from a finance minister is, in fact, alarming, not to put too fine a point on it and may explain a great deal about English government which otherwise might seem to defy explanation.
The sooner this Chancer of the Chequer Board applies for the stewardship of the Chiltern Hundreds the better. No, give him another chance. It is only a key revenue-producing industry that he has played fast and loose with by not realizing what he was doing to it.
Ask him to promise that lessons will be learned. That is the usual line trotted out after English Labour government infelicities, is it not?
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so Brian, it is OK because he fixed YET another "MISTAKE" in record time. has he fixed it correctly , has he taken the time to ensure it won't cause even more problems?
if the past 11 years are anything to go by the answer will be a resounding NO.
GB's GB is going down the pan in front of our eyes while Brown & Darling fiddle about.
saw a piece on a rival terrestrial broadcaster at lunch time with regard to Zimbabwe . people dieing of cholera in the streets while the political leadership just ignore the problems .
dictatorships don't work but will the component parts of the UK wake up in time or will GB become the next Zimbabwe ?
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For goodness sake. "Biggest U Turn in political history".
I really would never support Labour, and have a lot of issues with this pre-budget report. But the abuse which many of you are tabling at him over this one issue is just plain stupid.
Whisky has very specific and unique taxation policies on it. The government announced that it wanted to cut prices across the board except for alcohol and tobacco and so it was going to increase their duty to offset the VAT drop. This is a fairly clear policy. When put on the spot on television about it Alasdair Darling was under the opinion that this was what had happened and so claimed that thats what was going to happen. He then went back to the treasury and checked up on it and, upon realising that the protests of the whisky industry were valid, addressed them.
1. Clearly Alasdair Darling doesn't personally do the calculations for every single industry, and sub-industry within that himself.
2. The fact that he is willing to listen to the concerns of industry and then act on them is a good thing, would you honestly have preferred it if he'd ignored them???
3. A policy has been set forward in a pre-budget report. Prior to the main budget, given that these policies were being edited as little as a couple of days beforehand, its highly unlikely that anyone, particularly many of the pointless posters on this blog, would be able to iron out every single crack in that time.
What is far more important is that they stuck to their policy (hence why they fixed it) rather than play politics with it and claim they were correct.
Grow up people and if you're going to attack the man and his policies do so because he's taking on massive amounts of national debt, to levels last seen in the times when we had to be bailed out by the IMF. That he's leaving us a tax bombshell for the middle classes who are going to have to pay for this debt in a couple of years time, regardless of whether the economy has improved or not.
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Seems like simple arithmetic is not the forte of our dear chancellor. Or maybe the tax on whisky was worked out by the smarty at the treasury who inadvertantly spilled the beans about the intended rise in VAT. ( " Which wasn't really a rise, just a wee mistake ") At least they cannot revisit that one in the near future, or can they? In the meantime you have to ask, what else is hidden away in the small print and not for public view documents so dear to Brown's heart. No level of deceit seems to be too low for Brown and his eyebrowed familiar.
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10. With the nationalists;
Labour amends a policy = "humiliating u-turn"
SNP amends a policy = "listening to the people, democracy in action"
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#10 NCA999
I agree with you that one should not criticize anyone for owning up to a mistake and rectifying it. This still leaves the problem, however, of the original mistake and the effect of the embarrassing appearance of disorder within the finance minister's department which it has produced.
It is not essentially a question of individuals. It is a question of organization. If the organization, for which the finance minister is ultimately responsible, appears to be . . . disorganized, a real and potentially damaging effect is produced, which is not entirely undone by the rectification of the mistake.
So pleased to hear from you that you are grown up and not pointless. That is nice.
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#12 Reluctant-Expat
You'd have a point if you added government after each of the parties you name.
This is partly because both are minority governments in terms of votes but thanks to Westmidden's flawed quasi-democracy NuLab have an absolute majority there while Holyrood's fairly fair system has made the SNP a minority administration who have no choice but to listen if they wish to remain in government.
And oppositions throughout history have always branded policy changes "humiliating u-turn" or "stealing our policies" as the mood took them - certainly for the 350+ years that the current Westmidden experiment has been running.
I sincerely hope that Scotland never again has a "majority" government as that will lead to future abuses of power whether from SNP, NuLab or whoever, just as in all the "majority" unionist governments at Westmidden for the past 300 years.
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Douglas Fraser has some detail as to how this happened.
"The Treasury seems to have taken the average strength of a measure of spirits across off-sales and on-sales, and come up with its increase per bottle.
But as Scotch is slightly stronger than other spirits, at 40% proof, and heavily weighted towards off-sales, those two elements conspired through Treasury calculations to hit the whisky industry hardest."
Actually, I commend Darling for correcting the error.
In politics, the Minister will always be blamed, but, in reality, any Minister, in any Parliament, is dependent on Civil Service advice.
What is really scary is the incompetence within the UK Treasury.
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10. "....because he's taking on massive amounts of national debt, to levels last seen in the times when we had to be bailed out by the IMF. That he's leaving us a tax bombshell for the middle classes who are going to have to pay for this debt in a couple of years time, regardless of whether the economy has improved or not."
In all fairness to AD, we borrowed just as heavily during the 1992 recession but then went on to repay many billions within a decade as the right hand graph here shows.
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#15 oldnat
"What is really scary is the incompetence within the UK Treasury."
What is really really scary is the fact that the Treasury is not unrepresentative of UK government departments in that regard.
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#16 Reluctant-Expat
Pity the more recent figures don't include PFI.
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#16 Reluctant-Expat
Back to your old habit of linking to unsourced graphs I see.
Since it's actually more work to extract the graph from the "Economics Help" site than to publish the link, could it be that you are embarrassed by the source?
For those of you who don't know about "Economics Help", it's an A-Level Economics site (and a good one) helping school students in England who are struggling with the subject.
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Alistair Darling was entitled to make a mistake on the whisky issue - Angus McLeod said so on Holyrood Live. So that's all right then.
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#19. oldnat
re #16 Reluctant-Expat
1997 - Education, Education, Education. -
2008 At least he's still trying for his re-sit.
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18. Relevance?
19. Is either graph incorrect? No.
So what's your whinge this time?
Would you rather I linked to an entire site which is 99% irrelevant, or just linked to the relevant part.
Unlike you, nationalist, I do not make (or even need to make) endless reams of rubbish up in a desperate attempt to win an unwinnable argument.
As always, always, I have good solid facts on my side.
As for you......
Have you produced any evidence to your endless claims that Scotland subsidies London yet?
Have you produced any evidence to your endless claims that Corporation Tax is somehow included in GDP/GVA calculations 'proving' that London benefits from having most of the corporate HQs.
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Absolutely amazing that the Chancellor BACKTRACKS on issues that might affect Scotland. Remind me are a UNITED KINGDOM, or is a case of have your cake & eat it too.
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#10 NCA999
I quite agree with you - no doubt when we hear (assuming the speculation is correct) Nicola Sturgeon decide to hold a public inquiry into the C-Diff outbreak at the Vale of Leven Hospital that will be viewed as an act by a listening, responsive government.
I was actually impressed by the speed of Mr Darling's correction.
But the point does exist that the mistake was made in the first place - and while I do not lay the blame at Darling, I do lay it at the treasury.
Yes, the Pre Budget Report was probably rushed, but still, if they make a mistake like this in what is quite an important document - it begs the question what other mistakes are out there?
Oh and #3 Greenock Boy
How would you have phrased the question?
"Despite the banking crisis - isn't independence for Scotland a great idea?"
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frankly_francophone
For a self confessed francophone I'm surprised that you use the American spelling of organise.
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The poster No 10 writes:
For goodness sake. "Biggest U Turn in political history".
It would be a fair enough statement to ridicule, if only someone had said it.
That's the problem with this post, nobody did say "Biggest U Turn in political history".
Poster No 12 then says:
Labour amends a policy = "humiliating u-turn"
SNP amends a policy = "listening to the people, democracy in action"
What he neglects to mention is that the press usually headline SNP policy changes in just this manner, whereas Labour policy changes rarely result in such headlines in Scotland.
The word 'humiliating' as apt especially if the policy is 'U' turned within 24 hours !!
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#22 Reluctant-Expat
There's nothing wrong with using Economics Help as a starting point.
However, if you understood the learning and teaching process, you would realise that complex subjects are significantly simplified for learners on such sites.
Hence your previous error that the Scottish deficit is calculated by adding the GERS deficit to Scotland's share of the UK deficit.
As for your other "questions" - you constantly re-iterate distortions of points I have made, or points that were made by someone else.
Ask reasonable questions, and you might get reasoned answers - of course you also have to answer the questions you are asked.
If you Google "Setting up a Debating Society in your School", you'll get a PDF document giving useful tips on debating issues.
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Oh dear. A chancellor who cannot add up. Is this rock bottom?
the Labour party are looking like an increasingly good fit for, (wasn't it Talleyrand talking about the French Royal family?) the quote: "they have forgotten nothing and they have learned nothing".
Whether it is foreign policy, crime, the economy, pensions - they don't seem to have any better grasp of the problems or how to solve them than when they first came to power. The one constant is the old labour ideas that from time to time keep creeping back: "soak the rich", more quangos, nationalisation, controls over prioces, wages and lending. Is it just me or are we actually going backwards? It'll be Slade and Status Quo in the charts and the 3-day week next.
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#22 Reluctant-Expat
"Relevance?"
Without PFI debt the numbers in the HM Treasury graph are as meaningless as most of your posts.
The rest of your rant indicates you're losing the plot again.
Instead of asking us to prove things that HM Treasury most likely doesn't even collect let alone disseminate, why not make a positive post with 10 good reasons why we should support ID cards or why NuLab were only joking with their manifesto promises?
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Anyone taken in by the Labour "it's the right thing" mantra is either not playing with a full deck or is living on benefits.
As for the impact on independence for Scotland, even with your share of North Sea Oil can you afford to repay your share of the huge national debt loaded onto us by your countrymen in Downing Street?
Lord knows, those of us in England rue the day the Labour Party put control of England's future in the hands of a Jock - and a useless one at that.
Roll on the General Election.
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Greenockboy,
I apologise for slightly misqouting you, what you actually said was that it was the fastest U turn in political history rather than the biggest. Frankly however I think its quite clear to everyone here as well as yourself that in the context of what you were saying it was an attack with the same meaning and I would thank you for not attacking the semantics of comments and actually recognise the substance which was an important point.
When you have Angus Robertsons response to this as being "It confirms just how much of an afterthought the whisky industry was to the chancellor that he took such a reckless decision in the first place " this I think sums up the entire debate.
Frankly, I'd be quite seriously concerned if "the whisky industry" was a "primary concern" when the chancellor is taking decisions on policy during such a time of crisis. The idea that the chancellor should be concerning himself primarily with such an issue as a pose to, staving off a recession, dealing with the banking crisis, getting banks to lend mortgages again, dealing with the pension crisis etc is quite a concerning one.
Alasdair Darling took a position on alcohol, along with cigarettes and fuel, that the price should not be changed and announced in his pre-budget report that this was the new policy. That is about as much consideration as a junior minister should be giving to the subject let alone the chancellor of the exchequer.
Yes some idiot at the Treasury made a mistake, but frankly there are probably hundreds of mistakes in the calculations, the policies haven't been implemented yet, it takes time to get everything sorted and just right. The fact that the industry has spoken to raise this fear, and its been addressed is a good thing.
In response to the query regards support for Nicola Sturgeon on a public inquiry (C Diff) I for one would completely disagree with anyone who attacked her for such a U turn. I think there is a difference, in that the above was a civil servant calculation error where as the C Diff case would actually be a change of policy (resulting in Sturgeons position being an ACTUAL U turn whenever it does happen) however that doesn't change the fact that its the right thing to do and so yes it would be democracy in action whenever we get such an enquiry.
I don't have an expectation of our politicians to be perfect in every way. If you want to attack incompetence then speak to the SNP MSP who once told me that it was ok to sell oil abroad but be green at home because "We would solve Global Warming in Scotland".
What I expect is that our politicians should take policy decisions according to the views of the electorate who chose them, and should act in an appropriate way to any problems (such as this) which may arise.
Alasdair Darling, much as I dislike the man, has done exactly this.
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He came out, admitted he made an error and corrected it. Commend him for it - it's better than lots of other politicians. Try not to make cheap political points.
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26. With all these nationalist claims of "anti-nationalist media", you'd think there would be HUGE demand for a pro-nationalist paper...
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27. Oh, so you have NEVER claimed Scotland subsidised London or that London's GVA is inflated by having so many corporate HQs based there?
My mistake.
I suppose you have never claimed that London's GVA also benefits from having a very large UK-wide funded public sector (even though London has smaller % of public sector staff among its total workforce and also that it receives less per head in public spending than Scotland)?
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29. Feel free to not reply to any of my posts again.
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30. Labour out of Westminster and the SNP out of Holyrood.
Roll on both sets of elections.
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So Darling made a mistake with the Whisky calculations and rushed out an amendment. Good for him, although I would have thought the basic skillset for a Chancellor was arithmetic.
What about the impact of the reduction of VAT on small businesses across the UK - with the biggest impact, of course, in England?
Were I a small business with transport dependencies, for every £117.50 I spend on fuel, I can currently reclaim £17.50. As from next week I will only be able to reclaim £15.00, with the other £2.50 going to the Treasury.
Will Darling be so quick as to rectify this mis-calculation? Of course not. Firstly, with this governments history of stealth taxes, I doubt this was a mis-calculation. Secondly, the major impact will be in England, so why should he care?
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#34 Reluctant-Expat
Thank you for admitting that you made a mistake.
No, I have never said that Scotland subsidises London.
However, instead of relying on school texts I suggest that you look at the work done by Professor Iain McLean and Alistair McMillan, Nuffield College, Oxford on regional economics.
They have a fascinating analysis of regional GDP in a variety of EU states in their evidence to Select Committee on Treasury Minutes of Evidence
They make the point that across most states, capital cities show exaggerated GDP due to the national and international profits of companies headquartered there, being allocated to the region.
Additionally, they make the point "that the choice of level of aggregation can influence any such analysis—in the UK the inner London effect noted above is diluted by its inclusion in the Greater London region."
We have no data available for the GDP of London, discounting the distorting effects of the City and Westminster.
I clearly stated previously that it would be surprising if the City, as one of the world's major financial centres, did not produce a disproportionate level of wealth.
The effect of the financial crisis is not yet known, but the GDP of the City is clearly going to decline significantly when the results of the next PESA analysis come out.
You are simply incompetent in arguing on financial issues.
Next time do your homework before posting.
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#35 Reluctant-Expat
"Feel free to not reply to any of my posts again."
Thank you for your benediction. I'll be delighted to when you stop making idiotic posts.
#36 Reluctant-Expat
"Labour out of Westminster and the SNP out of Holyrood ... Roll on both sets of elections."
Wow, have we misjudged you? You clearly don't have a Liberal attitude in your psyche so I wonder if you a pro-ID cards "official" Tory?
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#39 Brownedov
Maybe Expat simply loathes everybody. S/he might be posting elsewhere with different user names sneering at and attacking every other party.
Given the tone on that blog that northhighlander won't let me name, s/he could be posting both as a Tory and a NuLab. Who could tell?
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#25 Blackivar
Good evening. Forgive my delay in noticing your post.
You are labouring under a misapprehension, I fear. Look up the word 'organize' in the OED and you will find the spelling that you see in this post, unless my now rather aged edition of the publication is unrepresentative of more recent ones.
English dictionaries are, of course, merely descriptive rather than prescriptive. Taken as a whole they describe a state of affairs in English usage which acknowledges both 'ise' and 'ize' as equally acceptable in Blighty, although it is not uncommon these days to encounter native speakers there who appear to be unaware of this.
What makes you think, incidentally, that francophones generally take Blighty English as standard these days? An insular and out-of-date assumption, I am afraid. No offence intended.
One does not so much "confess" to being francophone, I should add, as rejoice in it.
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#40 oldnat
Point taken - until his/her #36 I'd have put money on NuLab given the defence of ID cards, but if InMyKip's #102 is correct it shows astonishing devotion to duty to achieve such an artificial mix of venom and bile over an extended period.
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Whisky galore, Slainte mhath and greetings
Rabbie, are you on holiday, my friend.
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#32 Jordan D - it's not the fact that the Chancellor made an error and corrected it, it's that this isn't the first time he's had to admit that neither he nor his team had foreseen the consequences of major economic decisions he'd announced.
What makes it worse is that these consequences aren't things that came out once the fine print had been studies and analysed. No, these consequences occurred to people outside the treasury within hours of these announcements.
This whole episode merely highlights, yet again, how blinkered the Chancellor and his team are. Far from congratulating him on his swift response to people's concerns, we should be asking just how much more this mistake is going to cost us (remember, he had to borrow 2.5 billion just to fix his 10p tax mistake for 6 months only) and be demanding that someone other than the UK tax payer pays for it.
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#44
1. These consequences appeared to the people in the Whisky industry hours after the PBR.
Its not particularly surprising that the Whisky industry knows more about their market than joe bloggs civil servant, in Edinburgh, London, Brussells, wherever.
2. He did not fail to see the consequences of his actions, his action was to lower VAT on drink and then raise alcohol tax in order to compensat for that. Somebody in the Civil Service didn't do the figures right for spirits of certain alcohol levels. They then corrected this.
THERE IS A VERY SIGNIFICANT DIFFERENCE. PLEASE NOTE THIS...
Why don't you attack John Swinney for not calculating the costs of ,
Scrapping student debt,
Recruiting 1000 more police,
Introducing the mythical Scottish Futures Trusts.
Any one of the dozen or so other forgotten about promises of the SNP government, all of which apparently can't be afforded because of Edinburgh Trams (which is nowhere near equivalent to the amount of projects the SNP has reneaged on) and the evil government only giving them slightly more than Labour had to spend (again though, nowhere near equivalent to the projected costs all of the SNPs promises would amount to).
These are what is known as ACTUAL bad policy planning on the part of a finance minister. One of your civil servants accidentally missing out one of the several hundred alcoholic brands in the country when implementing your instructions is not a failure of policy on Darlings point.
This wasn't a consequence of the policy to lower VAT and raise alcohol tax by the same amount. Why on earth do people insist on harping on that it is????
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#45 - We're not talking about a piddling wee corner shop here. We're talking about a major industry in Scotland. You'd have thought that, before announcing a major plank of his pbr, he'd have run some simulations of the effect on our major industries. That would have been the sensible thing to do. But, hey, it's only Scotland.
As to your accusation that someone in the Civil Service didn't do their figures right, no that's laughable. The civil servants merely used a table based on alchohol content. A child with a calculator would have arrived at the same figures. The fact is Darling "forgot" that whisky is around 40% proof whilst the likes of softer drinks like vodka are around 22%. A mistake that's even more unforgivible as it was made by a Scotsman.
Re the SNP, 2% of the overall budget on Jack the Lad's vanity project is quite a big hole and it's still at least another 2 years before you can claim the SNP have renegaged on anything.
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NCA999:
#45.
Your comment is rather pointless.
The situation between John Swinney and the Scottish National Party and of course Alistar Darling and the Labour Party are different.
First could you start the discussion by putting a price tag on the policies that you mentioned? i.e. Scrapping student debt,
Recruiting 1000 more police,
Introducing the mythical Scottish Futures Trusts.
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46. "...it's still at least another 2 years before you can claim the SNP have renegaged on anything."
Actually, no. As you very well know.
Just in case you have again forgotten examples that have been repeated to you over and over and over again...
The SNP promised "1000 new police" in their manifesto but then changed that to "500 new police with the rest redeployed from other duties". Only the Tories forced them to keep this promise.
The SNP promised first time buyer grants but this was dropped very soon after the election.
The SNP promised smaller classroom sizes but have now changed that to "we will work towards smaller classroom sizes". Well, I will work towards being a millionaire by my next birthday......
The SNP have also long promised that they would re-regulate our bus services. I forget why that was dropped.
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All this nationalist 'anger' about AD and the whiskey!
Independence now! Freedom! How many reasons do we neeeeeeeed!
(Has Salmond finished sulking about the end of his very short-lived independence campaign and shown his face at work yet?)
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There is circumstantial evidence to suggest that one or more 'professional' agitators are targetting popular internet comment forums.
The agitators modus operandi is always the same in that they flood a forum with comment. The number of comments posted by such an individual is always higher by many factors than that of other posters.
They rarely, if ever, advocate any point of view but rather they are intent on attacking any comments made by other posters.
It is almost impossible for any 'casual' poster to engage or rebutt the comments from this type of poster given the huge number of comments s/he posts.
Another giveaway from this type of poster is a ready armoury of statistics, links and specialist data that can be produced with incredible haste.
All internet forums have now been targetted by these individuals. the practice began on The Scotsman comments with the poster called 'AM2', before spreading to the Herald. This BBC blog is the latest to be attacked by the 'virus'.
Someone, somewhere is very worried !!
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#49 - RE: The anger isn't just about whisky (there's no 'e' in the word, btw). It's about the Chancellor and his treasury team making a fundamental mistake, yet again, that is going to leave another hole in the nation's finances to fix. It's about AD making major policy decisions on the hoof.
But then, the fact you're hatred for the SNP leads you to defend his incompetence whilst deriding someone in their sick bed shows how narrow minded you are and how pointless debating these issues with you really is.
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38. Oldnat: "You are simply incompetent in arguing on financial issues.
Next time do your homework before posting."
[spits coffee over screen]
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Reluctant-Expat:
"(Has Salmond finished sulking about the end of his very short-lived independence campaign and shown his face at work yet?)"
Salmond attended the first FMQT after the Glenrothes loss. Your point is?
Rule Britannia!!!
You should uncover yourself from your Union Jack for one second, you may realise the world is larger then British coasts.
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#50 greenockboy
However, it is clearly possible to get under its skin, by exposing its inadequacies.
See its #52.
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53. What a superb response!
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#54 and its inadequacies are exposed in every posting it makes, it has one major inadequacy its consistant antisocial behaviour, a definite sign of a person with a personality behaviour problem.
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50. What could such people possibly be worried about?
Any chance you could enlighten us all with some examples?
I believe the independence argument is a complete fallacy; reliant entirely on fabrications, exaggerations, romantic idealism and, most pathetically, ancient grievances. The economic masterplan is clearly a mess of contradictory and unrealistic hyperbole, so fragile and weak that it is fundamentally changed on regular occasions. Role model nations have been highlighted, then suddenly dropped as "irrelevant" when their flaws become apparent to too many people. One poster still believes Iceland is a model to follow in the future, as if past performance no longer matters. And if Ireland is as wonderful as a certain radio hack suggests on his very own page on the SNP site, why is the country not part of Salmond's 'Arc of Prosperity II'?
The ONLY people who still support everything the SNP does and says, are those who are determined to see Scotland break away from nasty old England, whatever the cost.
Sadly for them, but wonderfully for Scotland, support for independence has never shown the slightest hint of growing despite a major nationalist campaign using the aforementioned fabrications, exaggerations, romantic idealism and ancient grievances.
Indeed, support for independence has even started to drop further.
As has support for the SNP.
The only increase of any kind is in awareness of the sizeable shortcomings of a party, and its almost messianic leader, whose solitary strategy was to wrap itself in the Saltire.
So, I ask again, what could there possibly be for the anti-independence lobby to worry about?
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#49 Reluctant-Expat
"All this nationalist 'anger' about AD and the whiskey!"
However big or small the error, it's a very good argument for fiscal autonomy. A Holyrood chancellor & treasury wouldn't have overlooked the importance of whisky to Scotland, just as a Stormont chancellor & treasury wouldn't have overlooked the importance of whiskey to Northern Ireland.
I must declare an interest here. Although my favourite whisky - by a long way - is Talisker, I am also partial to a drop of Black Bush.
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Reluctant-Expat:
#55.
I am sinking to your level of what you call 'debate', my everybody appears taller from this position.
Rule Britannia!!!
Hail, Hail the Union Jack.
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#57 then why do you consistently choose to put forward your argument against independence in an antisocial manner?
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#60 InMyKip and others
I suggest we don't talk to it, but about it to each other
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All this is becomoing very tiresome.
No matter whatt subject Brian decided to raise it is very soon engulfed in a torrent of cod statistics thrown together, mainly RE, to attack the independence concept .
Thus a range of day to day problems faced by every government this world, big or small, and dealt with sensibly by them are paraded on this blog as huge impediments to Scottish Independence.
The only reasoning that would make these problems insurmountable is that the Scots are somehow less able then anbody else.
Presumably that is what RE and his acolytes believe. If he/she is English this would hardly be surprising. There is an unfortunate strain in English thought that imagines that every other national group in the world is made up largely of inferior types,either fools, thieves or cowards or any combination of the above. I hasten to add this is not the opinion of most decent sensible English people.
If RE is Scottish I would refer him to Burns perceptive poem "Sich a parcel of rogues".
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60. Because the entire nationalist case is a mixture of fabrications, exaggerations, romantic idealism and ancient grievances.
When I encounter such inane absurdity as often as it is posted on here, I get quite bored with it all.
This forum used to be a great place for informed debate. Used to be.
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62. The vast majority of my posts are to highlight and discredit yet more examples of nationalist fabrication, exaggeration and/or revisionism.
Believe me, I'm as bored of all this as you.
The sooner we get 2010 out of the way and send nationalism back to its tatty little box, the sooner the sane, informed and objective majority of us can return to living in the 21st century, as opposed to the 12th.
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InMyKip
Its response to your #60 indicates paranoia.
Do you think it was frightened by a man in a kilt while it was a child?
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#63 - Used to be indeed. Then you starting flooding every blog with posts.....
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#62 sneckedagain
"There is an unfortunate strain in English thought that imagines that every other national group in the world is made up largely of inferior types, (...)"
You have noticed this too, have you? Join the club.
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#64 RE: Just because you keep claiming it'll happen doesn't mean it will. EVERYBODY is bored with the inane ramblings of a bitter wee man but it doesn't you flooding every new blog with inaccurate and misleading posts. Your negatively, obviously ingrained from the teet of Nu-Lab, far from highlighting flaws in the Indepedence argument, merely highlights everything that is wrong with Scotland today.
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And #59, #61, #65, #66 and #67 just go to support my comment in #63....
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#68 ForteanJo
Just when you think that it can't become any more incoherent, it produces its #69.
Possibly a mistake to assume that it has either gender.
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68. Would you like to me to reel of the vast list of flaws, major and minor, with the independence argument?
Or, just to mix it up a bit by trying something brand spankingly and excitingly new, why don't you enlighten us all by giving a pro-independence argument that relies entirely on fact?
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#69
Take my word for it. You are deluding yourself if you think that the rest of the world appreciates being patronized by types like you.
Go away and learn some manners, if you can.
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ForteanJo
I don't think you should respond to its #71.
It seems to be getting a bit over-excited with its "brand spankingly and excitingly".
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#65, unfortunately oldnat, RE maybe a product of RE's unbringing which is rather sad when you think about it, not that it gives RE the right to behave in a consistenly antisocial manner, although RE might not be able to recognise such behaviour as antisocial and even if they do they may be unable or unwilling to change it.
The alternative is RE is a 'professional blogger' and is using provocative language in order to ensure a reaction.
Either way far too much of peoples time is wasted attempting to engage with this person in a meaningful and productive way, they are highly unlikely to succeed.
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#71
Here we see deployed at #71 a very familiar anglo-unionist tactic: make your opponent realize that you are not amenable to reason and then allege that his unwillingness to be insulted further by you amounts to an admission that he has no argument and, indeed, no facts upon which to base one. I have seen this before many times. It is very tedious, and is meant to be.
Ignore this creature. It is not worthy of your attention. It resents the fact that the case for independence is actually often well presented here and based soundly on verifiable fact. This is, of course, why this creature is attempting to disrupt your debate. Ignore it, even though there may not be much hope that it will go away.
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#71 Reluctant-Expat
ForteanJo may not be willing for you to go to such a labour but I would be very interested to not only see this list but also how fast you can do it.
I was a bit thrown by your "reel of the"; as a jigger myself I was expecting "51st" and when you went on "vast list" I was thinking - it's one of these new computerised dances - so the tempo of your reply will be interesting, strathspey, reel or even jig-time.
It will be most enlightening to get a list of all the arguments, I don't know if anyone has ever done it before. You are a brave man to attempt it.
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#74 InMyKip
Interesting point.
I spent most of my professional life dealing with young people who had been damaged by their parents (who had often been abused themselves).
With young people, one constantly struggles to teach them that the past was not their fault, but that they need to move on and take responsibility for their own actions and behaviour towards other people now.
However, those who fail to learn how to behave reasonably towards others have to take the consequences as adults.
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Now, I didn't see this happening at all. Honestly, I didn't.
I challenge the nationalists to provide a pro-independence argument based entirely on fact.....and they all refuse.
frankly_francophone: "It resents the fact that the case for independence is actually often well presented here and based soundly on verifiable fact."
Yeah, that's what it is! LOL!
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#78 Reluctant to do what you said
You offer to "reel of" the list and then you don't. This does not look good.
Our family voted Labour since the days of the ILP. I come back after 40 years and find people like you "Labour" propagandists and the socialists in disarray. What do you want me to do, vote lib-dem or tory? Add another nationalist to your score.
Your posts are counter productive.
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#78 - Of course, the Unionist arguments are so factually based, they are beyond despute. So what are they, exactly?
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76. Happy to.
The keystone (well it changes but this is one of them) of Salmond's economic masterplan is the 'oil fund'. Flaws include that oil revenue is currently needed just to meet current expenditure and therefore any oil revenues saved will mean equal cuts in spending. The SNP somehow believes this not to be the case although they have never elaborated. Furthermore, oil production is declining fast, averaging 10% decreases each year.
Nationalists jump on a few reports that say "the oil will last for 50 years". What they will not admit is that while the oil will last, production levels will continue to be significantly and increasingly lower and will not be able to maintain even current revenues, let alone fill the annual 11bn gap between non-oil tax revenues and total expenditure. That 11bn is equiv to 30-35% of Holyrood's expenditure and clearly needs to be financed from somewhere.
Another keystone was that we can all become wealthy by exploiting the vast potential for renewable energy. Flaws here are that our primary markets are all capable of their own renewable energy projects (England, our largest potential market by far, could replace its Scottish energy imports simply by building the Severn Barrage...or one across the Wash....or the Thames), which would leave Scotland festooned in wind turbines and awash with flooded hydro-schemed valleys...with few, or zero, markets to sell it all to.
Scotland's economic growth has outstripped many other regions of the UK and we are now the 4th richest region after London, SE and E England. This is contrary to the image being spun by the SNP who portray us as 'underperforming' by using selective comparisons.
Over the last 30 years, the UK economy as a whole has outstripped nearly all our competitors, large and small. The only countries to have better economic growth are those who are propped up by subsidies. The SNP have tried twice (so far) to provide 'model' economies that perform better than us and prove we can do better still ourselves, yet two of the first three have gone bankrupt/were first into recession despite decades of multi-billion EU subsidies. The hastily redrawn second 'Arc' consists of three countries who have all grown LESS than the UK economy over that 30 year period. This seriously undermines the SNP's repeated claims that Scotland "is being held back by the UK" which again is demonstrated by the SNP by using selective comparisons.
Salmond preaches that Scotland would be better off in the Euro as we have little influence in the BoE. Quite how we would have more influence in the ECB while we register less than 1% of both economy and population, plus when we are not within the central cluster which makes up the bulk of the eurozone is yet to be explained.
Salmond also preaches that the euro would be better because their "interest rates are lower" (although UK rates are currently lower). There is no consideration given to the substantially differing inflationary figures, economic cycle, unemployment levels and other factors that see little in common between Scotland and the rest of the Eurozone.
Many nationalists claim that Scotland has vastly differing social attitudes to the rest of the UK and therefore would take a different path if independent. However, consecutive social opinion polls show there are NO substantial differences in attitude and this includes Trident, nuclear power and even the Iraq War. I have repeatedly asked for examples where Scotland does differ but not one single nationalist has managed.
Well, that will do for starters.
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No response?
I haven't even started on international matters such as the EU, international trade, the UN, G7, NATO....
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#79 handclapping
Not sure what you expected, but since all it gives you is a mish mash of opinion, distortion and irrelevance, it was hardly worth asking it for anything.
Maybe its #82 will give some evidence from the "Boy's Own Book of Politics", but I doubt it.
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#79 handclapping (supplementary)
Any idea why it thought anything in its #81 was worth a response?
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#81 - "However, consecutive social opinion polls show there are NO substantial differences in attitude and this includes Trident, nuclear power and even the Iraq War"
Oh please, provide a source for these "polls" (and your buddies down the pub don't count).
Explain, then, why Scotland has consistently voted differently from England over the last 30 years? Explain why Scottish Labour opposed nuclear power/weapons even when Westminster Labour didn't? Explain how John Major won an election when the tories were virtually wiped out in Scotland? No substantial differences, eh? Don't think so.
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#62 sneckedagain
"engulfed in a torrent of cod statistics"
Elegantly put and very true.
It now seems to be trying a slightly different tack in negativity. I particularly like the changes of mind on renewables and nuclear. Goodness knows what the argument will be when the oil price starts going up again. All we can be sure of is that the arguments will all be negative ones.
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#81 Reluctant-Expat
Thank you. Your #81 must have crossed my #79 in the moderation process. It does slow things down terribly.
If you do have more, especially on the things that are presently reserved (that is the right term?) like Foreign Affairs, that would be most welcome.
Just as an aside; any idea why the books I borrow from the library are a Reseved matter?
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#81 - Would you care to explain why Labour is pushing forward with the nuclear option (we risk blackouts if we don't build these plants, or so we're told) in the face of much opposition when "England, our largest potential market by far, could replace its Scottish energy imports simply by building the Severn Barrage...or one across the Wash....or the Thames"?
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It's been silent since 7.26 pm
Is it doing detailed research in the Library?
Is it thinking that handclapping is performing a lovely wind-up?
Is there a debate in the House? Do you want mince or mince for your tea?
The nation awaits expectantly!
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So, not a single, solitary argument from the nationalists of any part of this anti-independence argument.
Not one......apart from some curious ignorance of the concept of 'democracy'.
Will all nationalists please collect their duffle-coats on their way to the bus stop, many thanks.
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I wonder if the 10 GWH of electricity that scotland exports to england is counted in the GERS report.
How many years to build a Severn barrage for possibly 5% of englands requirements.
How many years of nuclear fuel left in the world ( possibly 20 years at known reserves ).
Sorry, but energy wise for the near future, england is in the s**t no matter which way you look at it.
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#90 Yep, you've won the argument yet again. All you had to do was ignore all the posts that inconveniently showed the flaws in your argument. You've learned from Gordie quite well - you're obviously his heir apparent.
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handclapping
It seems to think it made an "argument". Could you see it?
I couldn't see anything which approximated what you asked for.
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#91 OWN-GOAL
"england is in the s**t no matter which way you look at it."
Why did you spell scot as "s**t"?
:-)
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#81 Reluctant-Expat
I've been thinking about your arguments. I'm reading Billy Wolfe's book on the Nats; he was saying then, 1973, that they had 2 things to do:-
1 show they had people capable of government
2 to "win" the economic argument.
I'm afraid with the setting up of Holyrood we've let them away with 1) so you need to concentrate on the economics. At least we control the Treasury though it is unfortunate that ONS has escaped. We can't rely on them giving us gifts like the care charges in Glenrothes. They are not daft and there are many more of them since 1973, more's the pity. Still if we get the independence then we can go back to being socialists again.
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#81 Reluctant-Expat
Billy Wolfe is going on about "Scotland's Oil". You must admit if it had all been spent in Scotland it would have made a difference. Of course it would have been the Nats in charge so there would probably be nothing left to show for it and of course as you say it's running out now.
What a lot has changed in the 40 years; don't stay away too long my boy or you'll be like me almost a stranger in my own land.
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92. You argued about election results whereas my point was the broader issue of 'social attitudes' NOT 'political preferences'.
Feel free to explore the many social issue polls conducted by YouGov, all available on their website.
As for political preferences, Scotland voted for the same party that's currently running the UK.
As they did the election before that.
And the election before that.
They didn't vote for the same party for four elections before that......but, hey, that's 'democracy' for you.
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#89 oldnat
Hush yo mo' child; see cyc #32
As Reluctant-Expat looks as if he may have signed off for the night, do you have any idea why the books I borrow from the library are a Reserved matter?
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96. The handle is out of date, I've been living in Edinburgh for quite a while now. Have even seen the Weeble drive by in the company car.
And dammit, I love this city! Just damned stunning in every damned way.
Saying that, I'm moving to London soon and very excited with the prospect. Lining up a Thameside apartment, just ordered a shiny new Mini Clubman Cooper S (got to do my bit for the economy!), a buzzing social life all ready for us with bars, restaurants, theatres, countless events and even a couple of celebrity friends. A whole new world down there!
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#99 Reluctant-Expat
Rather you than me, son. I can thole about 4 days; New York's a real blast though but for liveability it's Sydney, apart from some but then I suppose you get them anywhere. Anyway best of luck down there
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#97 - Is that the sound of goal posts moving I hear? Okay, let's look at your source, YouGov.
Social Issue: Should Prince Charles become king, regardless of his age?
London: 42% say yes.
South: 41% say yes.
North: 47% say yes.
So Scotland, not being difference, should be in the 40s, surely? Mmmm - Only 36% say yes. How can that be, Scotland doesn't have different social values?
Okay, let's try again:
Social Issue: Should the pay of public servants (nurses, teachers, etc) keep up with the cost of living?
London: 46% strongly agree.
South: 46% strongly agree.
North: 45% strongly agree.
Now, what about Scotland. in the 40s again? Noooo - 53% strongly agree. These figures can't be right, RE, you've said Scotland isn't different from the rest of the UK.
Shall I go on or do you want a chance to move the goal posts yet again?
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#93 oldnat
Poor you, lucky me. Seems that someone's Swiss ID card needs returning PDQ or I may be spared from its company forever. Pity in a way that the Swiss entry to Schengen next month will remove most of the border checks which catch such miscreants.
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#98 handclapping
"Hush yo mo' child" is more South Carolina than the cosmopolitan North Carolina that I'm used to :-)
Don't tell RE about this feature of England or he'll get over-stimulated by the gun-oil.
Re your Library books. I wasn't aware that this falls under any of the reserved powers -
* constitutional matters
* UK foreign policy
* UK defence and national security
* fiscal and economic policy
* immigration and nationality
* energy: electricity, coal, oil, gas and nuclear energy
* common markets
* trade and industry, including competition and customer protection
* drugs law
* broadcasting
* elections and the registration and funding of political parties
* some aspects of transport, including aviation, railways, transport safety and regulation
* employment legislation and health and safety
* social security
* gambling and the National Lottery
* data protection
* firearms, extradition and emergency powers
* medicines, abortion, human fertilisation and embryology, genetics, xenotransplantation and vivisection
* equal opportunities
* treason, treason felony and misprision of treason
* regulation of time zones and Summer Time
* Sea fishing: Regulation of sea fishing outside the Scottish zone (except in relation to Scottish fishing boats).
* weights and measures: Units and standards of weight and measurement. Regulation of trade so far as involving weighing, measuring and quantities
Where do you think they fit within this? Your question puzzles me.
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100. NY has its draws but it's too crammed for me. And there's just no point being outside Manhatten.
Sydney?........yeah, now that's a city to live in. Give Melbourne a shot next time you are down there though, as the lifestyle is very different.
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#103 oldnat
there are more things in heaven and earth ... specifically reserved K2
and a sense of humour even
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#100 handclapping
Have to agree with you about London.
"Thames Valley Syndrome" (a disorder based on pollution level) makes London a very difficult place to live. However, since RE must be based well outside London (no native Londoner would dream of garaging a car there - taxis are so available) the effect may be minimised.
However, I gather that Rochester is rather better, and at least it has an airport for light aircraft so that one can take one's celebrity friends to France at the weekends.
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#105 handclapping
OK I was slow - eventually LOL!
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handclapping
Mrs Nat says "10 out of 10 to you"!
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#81 Reluctant-Expat wrote:
"..England, our largest potential market by far, could replace its Scottish energy imports simply by building the Severn Barrage..."
You're taking us in Wales for granted, mate. When we've all left, are you going to apply for English citizenship?
Wales was England's first colony, and arguably will be its last, if the unionists have their way. Wales is one of the poorest countries in western Europe, that's what being in the UK has done for us.
Scotland isn't the only country in these islands to be exploited by England. Coal, water and now wind is being exploited in Wales. All MPs, from all parties in Wales, voted against the flooding of Tryweryn by Liverpool Corporation in the 50s, but the UK Parliament voted for it. In the UK its the tryanny of the majority over minorities, always has been and always will be, as long as this wretched 'union' lasts.
You Scots have done much better than us in Wales. You have a Parliament of sorts, whereas we have a sham little puppet assembly which has to kiss-ass to Westminster each time it wants to pass a measly little measure.
Your flag appears somewhere, under the English one, on the union rag, ours is completely ignored. Even Patrick's flag is on it, altho 5/6 of Ireland is independent. What a farce of an union this is. (Having said that, I wouldn't want our dragon sullied by appearing on it - its a much better flag, as it stands).
I really hope you get your independence, and soon. When you've got it, can we please borrow Alex Salmond and Nicol Sturgeon so they can do the same for us? I'm afraid that PC's leaders, imho, just aren't up to the job. At the moment they're busy bolstering a pathetic Labour lot.
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#109 brynt41
Nice to have one of our Wesh cousins posting here.
I don't know a lot about Welsh politics, but it seemed a bad idea for Plaid to get into bed with Labour.
That tactic didn't do much for the Lib-Dems here.
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#110 oldnat wrote:
" don't know a lot about Welsh politics, but it seemed a bad idea for Plaid to get into bed with Labour."
Read my comments, I kept telling them just that!
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