Post-crisis rescue
Some early Scottish reaction to Alistair Darling's PBR.
Jim Murphy, the Scottish Secretary, reckons it's worth some £2bn to Scotland from the cuts in VAT etc. He calculates that at £275 per average family.
Others, you will not be surprised to learn, are more inclined to sum up the longer term impact of higher borrowing, spending constraints and, perhaps in particular, that proposed increase of 0.5% in National Insurance.
For the SNP, John Swinney, the finance secretary in the Scottish Government, broadly welcomed the fiscal stimulus package, including the VAT move.
He also welcomed the acceleration of capital investment south of the Border, with the proviso that his administration will be able, in talks with the Treasury, to follow suit.
This, he promised, would be investigated.
But he was discomfited by the proposal to reduce spending in Whitehall through further efficiency savings - because of the potential impact on Scotland.
Budget 'con'
You see, Barnett doesn't just work one day. If English spending rises, then comparable Scottish spending also increases.
However, if English spending falls . . . well, you get the concept.
So proposals to cut £5bn from English expenditure through further efficiency savings could, Mr Swinney reckons, trim some £500m from the Scottish block in 2010/11.
The Tories in Scotland went on all-out attack, taking their line from George Osborne that this is a budget "con" which will result in hugely increased borrowing.
For the Liberal Democrats, Alistair Carmichael warned that the package would fail to restore confidence.
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We are, of course, eagerly awaiting the chancellor's statement this afternoon. Perhaps we might find an alternative name for the gig.
Pre-Budget Report doesn't quite do it. Post-crisis rescue seems more appropriate.
Couple of points in advance.
Given that government ministers have repeatedly argued that the crisis is globally sourced, presumably they will not suggest the rescue can be driven by the UK alone.
To be fair, I do not expect the chancellor will follow that path. However, I also believe we require to tone down the expectations - and the rhetoric.
This IS a global crisis. One might argue over the contribution or otherwise of UK policies.
But we should be careful not to ascribe too much importance to one element of the global response.
Yes, it is vital for the UK economy to prepare itself to resist recession as much as possible.
However, there will be factors well beyond any UK fiscal stimulus affecting the longer-term health of that economy.
Secondly, it will be important to place the various anticipated measures this afternoon into the correct category.
Two biggies have been disclosed so far: first, an expected cut in VAT and a warning, revealed by my esteemed colleague Nick Robinson (nice one, Nick), that higher earners would pay more, should Labour win a subsequent UK General Election.
The first, the cut in VAT, is aimed at generating a fiscal stimulus: the hope that folk will sustain expenditure if prices in the shops are reduced.
The second is a political manoeuvre, aimed primarily at the Tories.
Alistair Darling and Gordon Brown are signalling a decisive break from Labour's previous pledge that neither basic nor upper tax rates would be increased.
They are doing so for two reasons. Firstly, that currency has already been debased.
That ship has sailed. The tax rates may not have gone up - but do people believe there has not been an increase in the overall burden of taxation, including National Insurance?
Secondly, it poses a challenge to the Tories - who had urged Labour to spell out how the interim measures would be funded in the longer term.
Mr Darling will now say: by an increase in the imposition on upper earners. Never mind that critics say this would not recoup the cost of his interim measures.
The Chancellor is inviting the public - and the Tories - to judge the package as a whole.
He is inviting the Tories to talk themselves into a position where they oppose th measures - and hence defend maintaining the present tax position of those earning the most in society.
Not, frankly, a comfortable position for any party - and particularly for a Conservative Party which is designed to shed any lingering image of supporting those with wealth and privilege.
I'm 
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~38~RS~)
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'defend maintaining the present tax position of those earning the most in society' what ...do you mean bankers ! Bankers make lots of peoples lives a misery.... i agree tax them a lot more.
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Had the truth been told and explored by the media way back when Enron hit the fan, the Westminster Government could have shown a little more interest in the " big players" banks included , and an over inflated house market .
The media spent its time brown nosing the Westminster Government , giving it an over inflated idea of its own worth and ability.
We now have an economic crisis which the media , yet again , let the perpetrators off the hook by stressing this as a " global crisis".
It appears that Europe blames the UK and USA for the ill effects visited upon them.
It would also seem that at least one ,if not two , members of the much trumpetted "arc of insolvency" are way ahead of the UK in dealing with their economic problems.
The Irish Government has taken a CUT in salary, don't hold your breath for news on that front from all the expensive MPs we have at Westminster.
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One more thing , the most honest words ever to fall from the lips of one A Darling have got to be , " people are pi**ed off with us"
However , not just pi**ed off with him , but pi**ed with the whole lot of them and the media too!
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I agree, we should tax those who earn the most in society.
Politicians!
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Brian
In view of the contribution of the "lightly regulated" London excesses to this global crisis, could you not portray this afternoon's set-piece as Gordon scrabbling to get himself out of the hole that he has spent the last ten years digging?
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The current top rate of tax kicks in on earnings of just 36,000 per year, these people are not exactly rich, or even wealthier than the average. They are also the people formerly known as 'Mondeo Man' who put Labour in power in the first place.
The most savage tax burden in Britain falls on those earning between 30,000 and 60,000 who also happen to be the people who make the whole system function.
It would be very unwise of Mr. Darling to upset them, they can also make the system dysfunction quite quickly.
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#4 BrianSH
I could dispute your use of the word "earn" in respect of MPs emoluments however I would be happy with their expenses being subject to the "wholly, exclusively and necessarly incurred" rules that we poor mortals suffer
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Brian
Good comments, but presumably there are also going to be announcements that spending on infrastructure will also be brought forward, and that any additional spend will be appropriately spread throughout the UK.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
There is one thing you have missed Brian, and that is, this package won't work.
People are more worried about losing their jobs than they are about spending money.
People are more worried about their savings and their investments than they are about spending money.
People feel they are being penalised for the mistakes of politicians, policymakers, regulators, bankers and the marketeers.
There is a growing sense of injustice about this crisis that needs to be addressed before people will put their hands back in their pockets.
Until that is done no amount of analysis of the nuances of the current political narrative will encourage people to spend one penny more than they have to.
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Wise words from Mike Smithson at Political Betting -
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#9 I seem to have been referred to the mods for defending the media. Strange, or what?
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This is a complete disaster.
Has anybody here considered the consequences that the taxes being lowered, will eventually be raised to pay for our debts?
It's not wise to spend money that we do not have. End of story. People have to start thinking long-term, or look at your own personal situations. If you are in debt, what do we do? Continue to spend or do we stop and find someway of paying back our debts (based on how responsible you are of course)?
The future will no doubt pay for the privilages we get now. Is it fair to burden those who can't vote for what really is their future we are playing with?
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Education Education Education!! We heard them harp!!! My partner left college in June this year after a 3 year Engineering course which he passed with flying colours after leaving a perfectly good job to do so. Only problem is there has been no available jobs (of any description let alone in his field) and no prospect of any in the near future either. After us struggling to make ends meet from my single wage for the last 3 years (supposedly an investment for our future) goodness knows how much longer we have to endure as we budgeted just enough to make it till June, so we are already in the 'Red'. To make matters worse he is now being told he is not entitled to any Jobseekers allowance (which he reluctantly researched) as he has not accumulated enough contributions by attending college for last 3years. I want to know how these Government decisions are likely to help us or others in our situation, or those facing redundancy. How are we to avail of a VAT reduction (except possibly a by miniscule amount thro our necessary bills)
The mortgage, council tax, increased fuel bills etc etc etc do not go away just because there is a downturn.
High Street shopping is not an option for us (and many others like us) are facing a very grim Xmas indeed. These measures are only going to help those who can afford to shop - I ask what about the thousands of people currenly running into uncontrollable debt - this is not helping them any in the shorterm. Tax cuts were a little ray of hope for us after a very gloomy few months - VERY DISSAPOINTING outcome!! Why not help those who are REALLY in strife!
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As someone who only buys new clothes when the old ones are wearing thin, has no interest in upgrading gadgets just because a new one has a few extra megapixels or is a bit slimmer, and generally asks the question "do I actually need this?" before deciding not to bother buying something, it'll take a lot more than a few tax cuts to turn me into a slave to consumerism.
Has anyone in the Government ever considered that maybe the problem with the economy is that it is so dependent on people spending all their money on needless tat in the first place, a problem that would require a monumental shift in the nation's mindset?
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Today will be a small cosmetic giveaway to keep the faithful on side, followed in April by a slightly larger giveaway just before a June election if the runes are right. Meanwhile, tax rises mentioned today will not need to be mentioned again in April, so will be largely forgotten. If as seems to be likely from the Downihg St. leaks, VAT is cut, this is a great opportunity to up the petrol tax while the price is falling, and again will not be noticed until the VAT goes back up to 20 or 22 1/2 % after the election. Watch out for tax rises hidden away in the small print as normal which also will not take effect till after the election Nu Lab think they can win. If the Tories have any sense, they need only slate the Pre budget statement for the desperate clutching at straws it is; they don't have to put forward alternatives, it's not their problem if it falls to pieces, as it no doubt will. There is some suggestion that even now, the government is struggling to raise the finance it is already committed to.
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#13 Thomas_Porter:
"The future will no doubt pay for the privilages we get now. Is it fair to burden those who can't vote for what really is their future we are playing with?"
It was ever thus. Thomas. When I was your age we had to wait until we were 21 before we could vote, but only until 18 to don the nation's uniform and fight for it. Perhaps you should think yourself lucky. Unless you intend to lower the voting age to 10, or install a government that will not take any long term decisions for fear of indebting those below the voting age, what would you suggest? The UK government may not be taking the right course of action over this, (I would suggest that it isn't), but fear of mortgaging present young people's futures is not why I think that.
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#14 Totallyrooked
Welcome to world of NuLabour - Help the dole dodgers, the bankers and politicians.
As far as they are concerned the rest of us can all jump off a cliff.
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It looks like Gordon Brown was telling the truth, he has stopped the boom bust cycle.
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MalcolmW2:
I'm not suggesting that we should lower the voting age. I am hoping people give the situation more thought, especailly about who and how we will repay the massive amount that our Goverment has borrowed and appears willing to continue to borrow.
It'll be the children of tomorro, and at what cost? A drop in education standards? How about hospitals? How about everything else? The elderly may be next. We know that our country can not maintain pensions for the huge amount of elderly we have, will they pay the price when it comes to repaying the debts?
I don't feel that the UK-Goverment has created plans on how we can repay our debts. It'll quickly lead to higher taxes or a major drop in our overall standards.
I'd rather pay it back now.
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Brian
We are missing RE; (s)he should be telling us that this crisis is all the fault of the SNP not spending enough. I wonder where s/he is? Nothing to do with being seen to support a white haired old man who is having to explain why the British GDP is to fall 1% or more next year so please go out and have foreign holidays at his expense?
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#6
"The most savage tax burden in Britain falls on those earning between 30,000 and 60,000 who also happen to be the people who make the whole system function."
I beg to differ. Most of the people in that bracket are middle-management. As far as I can see these are the most least effective workers we have.
As a skilled worker with a degree and over 20 years experience I earn less than £30,000. I think my work is more valuable than the managers with worthless degrees and no experience.
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What a non-event. 2.5% cut in VAT for 13 months. Plus 'we wont be robbing the poorest after all, for at least this coming tax year', and promising to tax the richest to some kind of fair degree ... after all that voting business is over. Deferred heavier taxation for the poor, and promised change to tax the rich, 'after you vote for us'. After eleven years of economic mismanagement, this really isn't good enough!
Is anyone else rather concerned that 'Super Brown' is now predicting the national debt will increase every year up until 2015? Nick Robinson has been posting on this point on his blog. Of course, this is all dependent on Darling's figures being right (most financial institutions think he is still being rather optimistic); even after cutting his 'growth forecast' for next year to -1.25%!
The Eurozone is looking very much like a 'safety net' right about now.
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#21 handclapping
He's still wittering on on the previous thread, with his usual jibes. Now that Capt. Darling has sat down, he'll no doubt be coming out with the new NuLab party line: Boom good, bust better, perhaps?
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Regardless of how we got into this financial mess, Darling's statement seems, at first sight, to be reasonable - and broadly in line with the SNP and Lib-Dem approaches.
Osborne and the Tories seem to be hitting the wrong notes, and have no plans.
I presume that Darling's statement that capital spending will be brought forward, will mean that the Scottish Government will now get exactly that relaxation of Treasury rules that it has been asking for.
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My very limited patience with Gordon Brown is wearing thin. He is portraying himself as the man who saved world which, I suspect will be as hubristic as the man who banished boom and bust from the economy. Having cosied up for ten years to the people who broke the banks whilst encouraging a debt-fuelled asset bubble, his dabs are all over this disaster, if he were to get away with this I would choke into my warm beer!
The VAT stunt is yet another piece of financial chicanery. He is seen to "do-something" whilst cleverly placing all the cost of implementation of the "tax break"onto private industry. Think of the hundreds of thousands of shop tills, accounting systems etc that will have to be modified for such a pitiful throwaway, limited in itself by European law. Think of all the companies that published next years price lists...not to mention all the work done of managing cost structures to certain price points.
To cap it all he and Captain Darling have leaked it in advance which will quite simply shut down spending for a week or two as shoppers defer purchases...and all just before Christmas
His mooted tax rise is the old "have you stopped beating your wife" strategy. Very clever politically but unlikely to raise much money. Might start to lose him some of the Luvvies support though.
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I have received the dreaded email re #9 and have removed the only possible dubious line (although I dispute this). So here goes:
I first became aware of the media's culpability in all things when we (I was a working news reporter at the time) were blamed for Scotland's World Cup fiasco in Argentina. How stupid it was to have a Daily Record centre half and a striker from the Express. The Herald's goalie wasn't up to much either.
Since then, the media has spoiled pretty well everything, right up to an including the SNP's efforts to sell dodgy policies to all but the most gullible.
Now it's the world financial crisis. Never mind Laws, rules, regulators and corporate greed... it was the meeja wot done it, pal! Overpriced houses? Blame the journalists.
Next in line for blame? The Union. And of course the idiots - the 80 per cent of the population, give or take - who support it.
Never, absolutely never to blame, are the rabble jeering on the sidelines, with not a creative or constructive idea between them of where we are, financially, how we got here, and how we might change direction.
Some of the people here might like to take a step back and have a look at themselves.
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The pre-Budget statement: Darling did okay, so did the yacht-hopping Tory. Tough question: Which spinner do you believe?
I'll expect some wonderful theories along the lines of.... "if only we were independent."
Seriously, anti-Labour as I am, this is one of those thankfully rare occasions when it is necessary to put self-interest and prejudice aside and support those trying to put things right. However culpable we might find them.
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#26 Anglophone
For once I largely agree with you. Of the 3 main Westmidden parties, only Cable's view made much sense.
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Wow - Capt. Darling just admitted that after all that's happened he's still left about a million taxpayers worse off over the 10% rate debacle. Let's hope that at least a million voters who'll never vote Labour again.
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Yes, a merry christmas from the government
where "good will "to all the people is the only relevant course.
Just what is the tories position on the economic down-turn, do nothing? Wow!
On the investment in new house(rented)
I hope to see quick action, which will clearly create new jobs and help stimulate that market.
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#25 oldnat, Holyrood certainly wont be able to count on that cash getting passed along. Labour have a long record now of denying the barnett consequentials to the new administration ... simply put, Westminster has sticky fingers.
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Brian
I am not convinced by Brown and Darling's plan. It seems a big gamble to me, if there is one thing we should have learnt by now is that you don't spend money you haven't earned.
Now some of what they propose makes sense, but borrowing money to spend your way out of a recession that is caused by spending money you didn't have in the first place just doesn't add up.
However it is a plan, the only one I have heard so far. I would like to see an alternative plan from someone. If we don't then we may end with more of the same after the next election, as none of the westminster parties seem to have a credible position. the only party currently showing leadership on this issue is Labour. It is long past time the rest got their act together.
It nealry makes you think about independance!
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I think the markets have given their response:
On a tumultuous day in politics, the FTSE 100 index of leading shares closed at 4152.96 - up 372 points or 9.84% .
However, what the heck do these people know compared to a bunch of teenage nationalists stuck in their bedrooms?!
Any response from the SNP yet?
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/7746401.stm
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#31. derekbarker
I agree, good post. I hope the Scottish Government get their share quickly and put it to use soon. We need more social housing.
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#30 Brownedov: In a nation of 60 million, no matter how you juggle fiscal figures, there will always be a million, at least, worse off after any changes. It's called swings and roundabouts. Only in the fevered imaginations of the politically blinkered can it be swings all the way.
#21: A white-haired old man? Is this a political assessment, or just an example of how to be idiotic, sexist, ageist and downright offensive in the space of five words? Or just par for the course with Nats?
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#34 Reluctant-Expat
What do we know? The FT thinks it was down to the rise in the Dow on Friday and the US bail out of Citibank, but, hey, if you want to think it was the markets agreeing GB is the Saviour of the Universe, well dream on.
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Brian
When is a 2.5% cut in VAT not a 2.5% cut. When it is a Labour cut.
VAT on petrol, booze and cigs cut by 2.5% but remember this is new Labour so 2.5% added to the duty on these product. You could not make it up.
Has anyone at the BBC asked if these increases in duty will be abolished when VAT changes back. No one better hold their breath waiting to find out, as it is very unlikely that they will be cut.
At least the numpties behind Darling were not cheering and waving their order papers, they like everyone else now know to wait for the small print of any Labour budget.
Glenrothes could just be the last high point for Labour.
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CBI, deputy secretary general- "Small business will be very happy with todays announcements"! Straight from the voice of Business.
Private Business has got a very good deal, and any talk of costs of changing systems is just silly. Nearlly all equipment comes with functions that can be very easily switched on, and if your accountant can't cope get yourself a better accountant!
In terms of National debt, it is not the highest it has ever been when you take into account inflation and increases in the size of the economy.
The Conservatives borrowed £51 billion in 1993, anybody want to make the adjustments, lets just say it is an awful lot more than the projected £64 billion the present Government plan to borrow!
As one of Brians esteemed colleagues says the year 2008 is a record, we've never had so many years, that last record was 2007 held only last year and who knows next year we may reach 2009.
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Reluctcant-expat.
Wait till the market reads the red book about the full scale of the borrowing and the totally unrealistic growth figures.
Care to post on Tuesday pm about where the market and the £ are then.
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This vat reduction is just a fresh coat of paint as it will do nothing other than increase costs to consumers. As the duty on fuel will increase to compensate for this reduction it will mean that businesses who could claim this back will see an increase in their running costs which will have to be passed onto the consumer. I suppose it will delay our pleading to the IMF for a loan to support the UK economy.
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Re #27 Brigadierjohn
Wow, paranoia in all it's glory here for us to see. That's right folks, journalists are all just professional saints who never just get their story straight off the net, never tell only one side, and are never economical with the truth. Beatify the lot of them immediately I say !
It's all down to the 'rabble jeering on the sidelines' - that's a nice way to refer to the reading public, or at least those who are willing to comment on things - the contempt is palpable.
I think you'll find that the jeering rabble, or at least most of them (ahem !) have real jobs to do that does not involve propping up the local bar (yes, I know a few journalists) pontificating about their topic-de-jour or getting out their soap boxes (by the way, that's a nice soap box you have there), so if they do not have the time that the politicians supported by a very expensive civil service have to come up with the answers that we pay the politicans to come up with, it should be no surprise to a reasonable person
Just like the political class, you want to have the field of opinion and information dissemination to yourself. How dare the rabble publish opinion ...... yeah right
BTW, I would love to know what the '80 percent, give or take' support
Speaking of taking a look at yourself, perhaps you should heed your own advice
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There is simply no trick to being a humourist when the Labour Party is in Power !
Wansanshoo.
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Re 34 The Reprehensible One.
Boy are you one tiresome poster.
The UK markets rose today well ahead of your wee darling's volte face!!
The markets rise was due to the rescue of another of your capitalist friends - Citibank overnight (check the stats) and had very little to do with a darling!
There is one positive from all your mindless unionist ramblings and it is this:
You serve the cause of independence so very well - but, oh to be free of all your negativism.
Living with/working with your utter negativism MUST be such a joy for others!!??
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#37 brigadierjohn
Can I use your endorsement, as an ex-journo, as a reference for my next media job?
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#37 brigadierjohn
"In a nation of 60 million, no matter how you juggle fiscal figures, there will always be a million, at least, worse off after any changes. It's called swings and roundabouts."
When they had time to understand it, even the "official" Tories realised that doubling the tax rate on the poorest taxpayers to pay for cuts on the richest was not a good idea. The LibDems, of course, spotted it and complained straightaway but got little media coverage until long after the event.
Swings and roundabouts is precisely the idea of "green" taxes to encourage more responsible behaviour and if carried out sensibly is supported by most. I notice that Capt. Darling can't even get that right today, by refusing to replace the per passenger air travel tax with a per aeroplane one.
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#43 blogger: Sorry about your raw nerves. I rarely look at myself - just too ugly, I'm afraid. The 80 per cent? I think it refers to the Union, at least that's what it says (for those too blinkered to read properly). Unfortunately my little moderation difficulty meant the post was well out of sequence. It was intended as an answer to #2 and #3, whose blanket condemnation of the media was as bad as yours.
But thank you, anyway, for providing evidence in support of my view. Now, go and have a wee drink, avoiding local bars, of course.
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This is a basket of quick fix remedies which does nothing to correct the real problems in the UK economy.
Darling and Brown may have no real choices in front of them to do what they have done today but that is mainly because of the startling profligacy of the last 10 years. They have been sailing along on a sea of invented money calling it economic growth and funding our state on taxing this monetary illusion
A simple analogy of what we have just done as a nation is like a person with a £10,000 credit card debt taking out a card which gives him £15, 000 to pay off the £10,000. But he can only sensibly do this if he can convince that he will have the income to service the £15,000 debt and that servicing, of course, comes out of his spending power.
Who's convinced the UK can meet these obligations? Not me!
I have to point out that all this talk of our National Debt and the huge deficit we are now sinking under DOES NOT INCLUDE the massive indulgence of PFI which should be added whenever we talk of National Debt.
I would think there will shortly be a terrible price to pay on this as many PFI schemes go to the wall in this crisis.
I cannot get my head round the idea that getting consumers back shopping again will somehow kick start our economy. As much of what we buy is now manufactured elsewhere what we are doing by this strategy in the long run is talking on huge debt to make various far Eastern economies better off. Any "kick start" may save Labour in the short term but it is an illusion.
We are in the early days of a failed state and it is now becoming very obvious that the UK banking system is in as bad if not a worse condition than the Icelandic equivalents.
I cannot be stressed too much that we are literally hanging on here by a thread.
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#46 handclapping: You'll need to display some talent first. My endorsement would undoubtedly get you a job, but I know your performance would damage my reputation.
(See my reference to jeering from the sidelines).
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20 billion GBP tax cuts to protect small/medium businesses, and to protect the most vulnerable.
500 billion GBP bail out to the banks.
Reduced tax revenue - especially from the financial sector.
The huge Public Borrowing Requirement is fundamentally caused by the need to bail out the financial sector, which all parties saw as the sector which would create wealth from nothing.
UK Governments have depended on the chimera of the financial sector for long term survival to a much greater degree than Scotland would depend on oil to create the conditions to achieve structural adjustment - and at least oil is real!
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44
Wansanshoo
Is that the famous one legged Chinese left winger?
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Yvette Cooper on Channel 4 News
"RBS - that's the Nat West Group"
Nice of her to translate for the English viewers.
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#47 Brownedov: I didn't say it was fair. Surely a man of your age, accepts there are winners and losers, and most of us have to settle for an occasional draw. The LibDems are very good at being fair. Sadly for them and us it just doesn't happen. Amazingly, there are people in Scotland still peddling Utopian dreams.
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I'm angrrrry. Darling said people who used banks in the Isle of Man were tax evaders and deserved all the got. "I'll loook at the Isle of Man in the spring." Tax evaders? What a complete liar. I just can't believe how he can tell such lies knowing what he knows about the Icelandic situation and all the UK banks associated with that downfall.
Tonight I've a suicidal friend staying with me. He's worked in the far east all his life but has banked his money in Singer Frielander. Why not? He wasn't resident in the Uk but he chose to pay UK taxes to protect his interests.
Now the UK government have seized the money people had in the Kaufling, Singler and Frielander bank in the UK.
The BANK IS SOLVENT. It's perhaps the most solvent bank in the UK.
The problem is, KSF had associations with Icelandic banks. I shan't go into the details because they're boring to us folk who are only looking after themselves and can I blame them.
Darling is a liar. He has taken the lifetime investments of UK taxpayers (although not UK residents owing to work) and stuck them into his pocket.
Thief, liar and law breaker. What else can I say other than offer my friend the sofa until he can get a council house. As if that will happen ...
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If the Tories had done this in 1990 at the start of the last recession, or 1981 at the start of the previous one maybe it wouldn't have hurt quite so many people north and south of the Berwick-Galloway meridian.
Oh, and I'd rather have the economy run by a white-haired old (Scots) man (he's 55 next week, is that "old"?) than a dark haired old Etonian (do we think Mr Osbourn dyes his hair?).
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Lets face it, what do ordinary citizens like myself understand about the pre budget statement. Absolutely nothing apart from the knowledge that any cuts made here are clawed back from elsewhere so in reality we do not see or feel any change.
It seems that we may be heading slowly but surely down the road towards a 1979 scenario but this time there will be no oil revenue to bail us out as we have already squandered that. Taxing the rich will make little difference either as they are in the fortunate position that they can leave and move to a place where tax is low.
I agree with #6 jeremaid that the middle income earners are the ones who bear the biggest tax burden and my own feeling is that we should all pay a flat rate across the board, in that way the rich pay more the poor pay less.
#27 brigadier, I've been away for a while but its good to see that you can still wind 'em up and that includes the moderators. The media does have a large part to play and should like our politicians curb some of its excesses
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The last few years have seen the growth of 'Scotland as a luxury brand', culminating in Trump's golf development. As a consequence, we're dangerously exposed to a major world downturn in luxury goods. Until recently these were reckoned to be recession-proof, but does anyone still think that?
Time to start re-branding, I think.
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#54 brigadierjohn
"I didn't say it was fair. Surely a man of your age, accepts there are winners and losers, and most of us have to settle for an occasional draw."
I didn't say you did, and yes, I accept that most changes in politics and life produce winners and losers.
What I and many others will never again accept is the word of a carpetbagger like "Duff" Gordon. "Old" Labour had many faults, but would never have raised taxes on the poorest to pay for tax cut for the rich.
He even had to promise that nobody would be worse off to stem a revolt in his own party and has now proved true to form by ratting on that promise. Perhaps, as with his "apology" to the NuLab conference, he's just hurt that we're all too stupid to understand that he really means well.
As such, I do not understand how anybody could ever trust him and his party ever again. Frankly, I've thought that ever since NuLab ratted on so many promises from their '97 manifesto, but until the '07 budget even Bliar did nothing this dastardly.
"Amazingly, there are people in Scotland still peddling Utopian dreams"
Like oldnat, I distrust all politicians, but now that NuLab have forfeited all right to any "benefit of the doubt" I would without hesitation vote in any public election for whoever I think stands the best chance of ridding them of us. I think I now understand why so many in Stoke-on-Trent voted BNP in the hope of throwing the scoundrels out.
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#58 Anaxim
Regardless of what happens in the world economy, the rich will hang onto their money, and will want to spend it on luxuries, so producing for that market will always make sense.
However, reliance on any one sector of the economy never makes sense. Whether in or out of the UK the Scottish economy needs to be balanced across a variety of sectors.
The financial sector has proved that using it as the saviour (remember post neo-classical endogenous growth theory) was an OECD inspired fallacy, but a slimmed-down more conservative sector will survive.
Energy, engineering, ICT, manufacturing, oil services, etc etc all have their part to play.
Would you disagree?
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so what can we take from today's performances. labour and tory's continue the last 20 years of ya boo politics, mixed in with some Joe public will support this cos they are thick and they need us to explain how lucky they are to have us looking after them.
the only person who managed to talk some sense was Vince cable funny how the BBC didn't show that bit live . why show someone who was actually talking sense when we could have more labour and Tory politicians,labour and Tory "experts " oh and some labour & Tory journalist's slagging each other off instead.
want to say more but i don't think kirk has a sense of humour
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/7746722.stm
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Ummm, does anyone really believe that the retail sector will pass this 2.5% windfall on to the public in the long term? I don't, just watch the prices creep up to fill that 'void'. Even now, wicked little elves at the High Street shops will be working out how they can fool us into thinking we are getting a windfall bargain.
This all smells of desperation. If government really wanted to do something for us all, why not take VAT off gas and electricity completely? That would at a stroke help the poorest off and would also help such industry as we have left now.
I am waiting for some huge household name, non-financial company to crash, a supermarket company perhaps? One that might make squillions of profit but still borrows squillions to feed its expansion and acquisitions. Or hey, what about a huge telecom company that has squeezed the 'profit lemon' dry and now tries to torture its customers with sneaky small print in order to make that last % of profit on profit. And WHY has there been no mention of the fact that Ford, GM and Chrysler are teetering on the edge of bankruptsy? GM and Ford are the last volume car makers in this country and their collapse will have devastating consequences for us all.
We still haven't heard about the pension funds. When will the first biggie fall? My own plan was heavily into George Wimpey and RBS. No, no, this is not over by a long shot and it's certainly no longer the time for party politics. Osborne should shut up for a while and listen to what the grown ups are saying and that doesn't include Brown or Darling. They are more overgrown than grown up.
The whole country needs a proper economic strategy. Not one that gives away sweeties now and promises to take the bread from our mouths later. Is there a fall-back plan if this scheme of Brown/Darling doesn't work?
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#50. brigadierjohn
Sir you are an officer and a gent. I won't be able to take you up. freakowski at #56 got racist as well by putting in (Scots); I know when I am outclassed.
My talent is for making money so I'm not going to be taking over Johnstone Press any day soon.
As for (See my reference to jeering from the sidelines) I probably saw you in the bear pit that was Glenrothes but then how was I to recognise you?
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63. At 9:26pm on 24 Nov 2008, crazyislander wrote:
This all smells of desperation. If government really wanted to do something for us all, why not take VAT off gas and electricity completely?
------------
I don't think they are allowed to under EU law. I know they cannot lower it below 15%, but I don't know about removing it completely.
This decision was a bit stupid. Everyone I have spoken to in work can see right through it. What is the point in, for example, saving £2.50 on a tv, when retailers are already slashing prices up to 50%?
A small cut in tax would have made a difference, since people would see the money in their pocket and some would spend it.
There is talk about savings in public spending. Perhaps the Scottish Government could do their bit and cn the National Conversation. Not much but every little helps, and it would be a gesture that they could then use when attacking Labour.
#58 Axiom.
Apparently there is talk that Trump is looking at Ireland, since although he has permission he still has a nightmare of bureaucracy to to wade through.
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#57 Jake: I've missed you, and your absence is one reason why my own interventions have been less frequent.
Casting pearls before..... well, you have to be careful with the literalists here, can be trying.
While we play at being armchair economists, fighting old battles, putting up with the fantasists, the really smart people have already devised strategies to make money out of our misery.
Does it really matter if we are independent, part of the UK, or an unconsidered corner of Europe? The rich will get richer and we will feed off their crumbs. Bigger or smaller crumbs as political fortunes ebb and flow perhaps, but still crumbs.
Is this too depressing? The truth - unvarnished reality - usually is. As you say, what do we understand of it all?
I'm off to finish the Sauvignon Blanc and ponder the meaning of life.
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Crazyislander
Is Woolworths a big enough name for you. It is trying to find a buyer but is having trouble finding a one.
The asking price for the company is £1.
P.S. That is not a miss print £1 is the price.
P.S.S. All companies and councils etc will thank Darling for his help in these troubled times when they wake up to the fact that their fuel cost will rise by 2.5% from 1st Dec. The VAT that they can reclaim has been reduced.
Beware of Labour chancellors bearing gifts.
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#65 Neil_Small147
"Perhaps the Scottish Government could do their bit and cn the National Conversation."
Not a bad idea, particularly if the unionists and the LibDems agree to finish with, and act upon, Calman's interim report.
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Banks Welcome Pre-budget Report To Steady The Economy
That the Bankers welcome the PBR should worry us all.
These are the people who trumpeted how wonderful Credit Derivatives were.
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#69 oldnat
I should jolly well hope they do welcome it!
Here is an extract from my #222 reply to derek on the previous blog -
The people who will benefit are those blessed bankers again. They can't charge us VAT so effecively they pay VAT on everything they buy. Darling has just given them an extra 2 1/2% to add to their profits. -
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Dubbie, I know Woolworths is a big name but I doubt if the recent financial crash has too much to do with it. The business model advanced by Woolworths was muddled in the extreme. They are no longer the all things to all men (and women) outlet they once were. Each month their stores change from being hardware based to toy based. Then they try to be a garden centre or a sweetie shop. None of these changes has worked. So it's curtains...well it used to be.
No, if Woolies fails, they brought it on themselves. The ones I feel sorry for are the workerswho will doubtless be hard pressed to find a replacement job. Perhaps dear old, kindly Uncle Philip Green will come to their aid by taking the whole thing over and taking the profits (should there be any) off to sunny Monaco.
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#69
Oldnat, a very relevant piece and I'm sure you do understand the need to restore confidence in the banking sector?
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An Overlooked Detail - Finite Resources Explain the Financial Crisis
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#60
I don't agree with your assertion that the rich will always need luxury goods. For one thing, the demand for them is almost certain to decline at least partly. For another thing, this is no ordinary recession, it marks the closing of one era, and the beginning of a new one. By the end of it, squeezing the rich may be the standard across the world.
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As for a diverse economy, I sincerely doubt the abilities of the nationalists to deliver one. Especially now that the low-tax independent Scotland narrative is finished. Most likely they'll focus on their ancestry tourism jamboree and the implausible wheeze of 'exporting vast amounts of renewable energy'.
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#74 Anaxim
"I don't agree with your assertion that the rich will always need luxury goods."
The rich don't need luxury goods any more than any of the rest of us need
the luxuries in our lives. However, the rich like the rest of us want them.
"the demand for them is almost certain to decline at least partly."
What evidence have you for this? You may be right that there is some reduction in the super-wealth of the West, but even your own statement is no basis that Scotland should stop catering for the significant market that will remain.
"squeezing the rich may be the standard across the world."
Well let's deal with that problem, when the Saudi princes are drawing Social Security.
In the meantime Skibo Castle, prawn divers, beef producers etc probably shouldn't stop marketing their produce because Anaxim thinks there may be world socialism.
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Time to face facts. You are going downhill rapidly. In the third quarter of this year the UK GDP diminished by 0.5 per cent, and the situation has continued to deteriorate, with unemployment increasing sharply and consumer demand down last month.
In total the measures just announced by the English finance minister in his much-leaked pre-budget statement for 2009-2010 could cost 24 billion euros, i.e. more than 1 per cent of GDP. Because of the already poor state of English finances, this massive intervention will not be possible without phenomenally massive borrowing of historic and mind-boggling proportions, as you know, and, of course, will increase England's budget deficit.
Taking into account the plan to recapitalize ailing banks, the English government will apparently have to borrow more than 200 billion euros this fiscal year and in the next one. Eventually borrowing will be as much as 57 per cent of UK GDP? That cannot be right, surely. If it is, this breathtaking prediction should give you pause for thought if nothing else does.
What are commentators on the European mainland making of what we have heard today? Some are saying that, thanks to the dubious stewardship of Mr Brown when finance minister, the condition of the UK economy, although very sound when Labour came to power, had already deteriorated substantially before the Anglo-American financial crisis took hold. The motto of Mr Brown was already revealed to be: spend, spend, spend. The UK public sector now costs 600 billion pounds sterling per annum, of which a fifth is arguably wasted. This already excessive state expenditure is apparently now to increase, with public borrowing at unprecedentedly and indeed dangerously high levels to pay for it.
In 1976 the UK (under a Labour government) had to ask for assistance from the IMF. There is speculation that it may have to do so again. Or might it just quietly approach Norway for the sort of highly helpful loan that that notably oil-rich arc-of-prosperity country has just given to Iceland? Contrary to what is being claimed by Labour and the Labour-supporting media outlets in Blighty, Mr Brown is not universally regarded as a highly credible "man of the moment".
The English, it is being said, will pay dearly for these desperate measures of his in the years to come. The exorbitant cost of his administration's recovery plan is expected to result in huge tax increases after the general election expected to take place in 2010. Furthermore, the view is being expressed that the English government is beginning to gorge itself on borrowing to such an extent that it will result in an increase in the already unhealthily high level of imports, a trend to which the VAT decrease may also be expected to contribute, as much of the additional spending that may be encouraged by it will inevitably be directed towards imported goods, as the UK appears now to produce very little of what it consumes.
Dismissed by the much-respected Liberal Democrat finance spokesperson as ill-advised, this VAT measure has attracted a great deal of interest and criticism in France. What does President Sarkozy think of this stroke of genius of Messrs Darling and Brown? He has just declared on television that, because prices are falling and deflationary pressures have to be guarded against in the prevailing economic climate, he does not see any need to lower the rate of VAT. I will not conceal from you the fact that it is gratifying for me to hear him say this, as the same thought had occurred to me, as well as to Mr Cable, apparently. Perhaps it has even occurred to you. Why, then, not to Mr Darling or Mr Brown? Are they cleverer than everybody else? What do you think? The informed view on VAT reduction that I have heard most often expressed since Mr Darling's announcement is the following. It is when everything is going well, just before the economic situation deteriorates, that one should lower VAT; not when a recession is taking hold, when such a measure is liable to exacerbate deflationary pressures, which one would have thought that it would be in your interests to counteract.
Be that as it may, the matter no doubt can be argued over endlessly and presumably will be. What seems to be clear from what we have heard from Mr Darling today is that the UK is indeed in deep doo-doo and that Scotland, as part of the UK, is right in there with it. The best of British luck to you.
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73
Great stuff and very to the point.
The whole world has been operating on the false premise that continuous growth could be infinite.
What I take out of the report in particular is that virtually all our sources of power are finite and rapidly running out.
Uranium in particular will probably be out of our reach as a viable resource long before fossil fuels. Bluntly put - we have no choice but to look to renewables and the sooner we start the huge investment needed in solar, wind, hydro, wave, biomass and tidal power the better.
We have no choice.
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#75 Anaxim
"As for a diverse economy, I sincerely doubt the abilities of the nationalists to deliver one."
If you had bothered to read my post you would have noted that I said that Scotland required a diverse economy whether in or out of the UK.
It wasn't a party political point (like your silly riposte) but a general economic point that a diverse economy is more resilient - regardless of which party is in power.
You're using sneer to avoid answering my question - Do you disagree that a diverse economy is desirable?
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#78 sneckedagain
One of the tragedies of our political system is that all parties seem to be forced into a competition for the votes of individuals based on their selfish immediate needs - instead of longer term sustainability.
The Greens try to argue against this and are consequently marginalised (although their acceptance of some loonies into membership doesn't help them!)
I wish I knew how this could be turned round.
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Slow Handclapping #64 - thank you for that well-crafted and intellectually superior put-down. . I'm fully chastened and will never use the "S**t" word on these pages without permission again. P.S. how did you know I'm black?
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Re #48 Brigadierjohn
Ah, the condescendiing non-answer.
No raw nerves here old man, I am just not willing to be spoon fed my opinion by the media.
As for supporting evidence, I think you will find that your own inability to support your argument with nothing more than smug comments supports my view rather than your own
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What did Frankie Miller know about Alistair ?
Darling, I'm feeling pretty lonesome
I'd call you on the phone soon
But I don't have a dime
Darling, you're so far behind me
Tomorrow's gonna find me
Further down the line.
Wansanshoo.
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SIMPLY (in the) RED
Backing vocals: Brown/Darling
I been laid off from work my rent is due
My kids all need brand new shoes
So I went to the bank to see what they could do
They said Son looks like bad luck got a hold on you
Money's too tight to mention
I can't get an unemployment extension
Money's too tight to mention
I went to my brother to see what he could do
He said Brother I'd like to help but I'm unable to
So called on my father, father
Almighty father, he said
Money's too tight to mention
Oh money, money, money, money
Money's too tight to mention
I can't even qualify for my pension.
Wansanshoo.
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Good Morning Tuesday, Hello even bigger national debt! Hurrah!
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#43 Bloggger
I know a few journalists too and none match your description.
They are not the liquid lunch, chain smoking work-shy hacks everyone thinks, that hasn't existed in twenty years.
They generally seem to be over-worked and underpaid.
Look on any website recruiting journalists - Perth FM for example was hiring a newsreader and broadcast journalist recently.
This person will have had to have gone to university to get a degree and then got a post graduate qualificiaton recocgnised by the NUJ and BTCJ (which usually costs upwards of £3000) just to work anti-social hours, gather news and also edit audio and then read it on air all for the princely sum of £12K a year!!!!
I feel sorry for whoever took it up.
Excesses of journalism? Hardly.
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And whoever did take the job and I imagine they aren't too enamoured with this PBR.
How is anyone on a low ncome actually better off?
I would class myself on a low income, but if there's help out there damned if I know where you can find it.
My national insurance is going up, fuel duty is going up (and there was me thinking petrol might hit 80p a litre) alcohol's going up (definitely not going to drown my sorrows) my utility bills still seem to be rising and my mortgage doesn't seem to dropping as quickly as my house's value but 2.5% is coming off the tax on big shiny things I can't afford anyway - great!!!
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And whoever did take the job and I imagine they aren't too enamoured with this PBR.
How is anyone on a low income actually better off?
I would class myself on a low income (below 15K), but if there's help out there damned if I know where you can find it.
My national insurance is going up, fuel duty is going up (and there was me thinking petrol might hit 80p a litre) alcohol's going up (definitely not going to drown my sorrows) my utility bills still seem to be rising and my mortgage doesn't seem to dropping as quickly as my house's value but 2.5% is coming off the tax on big shiny things I can't afford anyway - great!!!
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Hey, 2 for 1 - Mods please delete one.
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Can anyone tell me if there have been cases of bankrupt countries in the recent past?
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#75 honestly Anaxim you're starting to sound like Expat with that petulant little dig. Jambouree? implausible wheeze? These are your negative and demeaning descriptions....and thoughts.
As for a diverse economy, it would be most welcome, we've seen the 'so-called' diverse economy New Labour helped build, now look at the state of us, into a bust, bust, bust cycle.
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Re #86 Blackivar
I'd be interested to see if you support the contentions in brigadierjohn's original post #27.
My point was nothing to do with the salary earned by journalists, but rather that they do not have a monopoly on comment and opinion, and the idea that they have never been more than slightly one-sided in their writing or economical with the truth.
Brigadierjohn is trying to paint everyone else as the bad guys while his sainted journalists are the poor misunderstood champions of truth.
My contention is that both journalists and politicians hate the fact that the jeering rabble (as they see them) have a real voice now through blogs and forums and have access to much more info through the internet that they ever have and this is deeply troubling to groups who have long seen the shaping of public opinion as their preserve.
BTW, I dont recall mentioning liquid lunches or chain smoking (which isn't allowed in pubs), so I suspect that this comes from your own perception. I said that they tend to prop up bars pontificating about their favourite topic, but I wouldn't know if they do it at lunchtime.
I would also suggest that the role you refer to at Perth FM (how many listeners ?) is the very bottom of the ladder, and that salaries of 25k to 40k is more normal for experienced journalists
Lastly, there are many jobs where you earn 12k and have to work anti-social hours, so what's your point?
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oldnat #76/79
So you concur with the notion that luxury goods are largely recession-proof? I don't agree.
To take an example, the Russian oligarchs have been left high and dry by the collapse of commodities prices. These are the same oligarchs that VisitScotland was trying to attract in September.
The market remaining after the dust settles will be a lot smaller, and continuing the 'Scotland as a luxury brand' narrative will be a misallocation of resources. A broader narrative aimed at ordinary people is a better idea.
It's foolish to wait until, as you put it, Saudi princes are collecting social security. Having a diverse economy (which is important) doesn't mean we shouldn't modify the message to match the times.
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#90 DisgustedDorothy
Zimbabwe.
(But perhaps subject to your definition of recent).
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morning ,Disgusted,
eh , Zimbabwe kind of springs to mind. might not be bankrupt but not far away.
are there any similarity's between GB and Zimbabwe i wonder???
i can think of a couple but if i name them kirk will block this post so use your imagination.
cheers sid.
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#96 I can understand Brigardierjohn's point - this is blog is proof of the attacks on journalism and the supercilious attitude of some members of the public.
Look at this blog - the accusations laid at the media range form being Labour's stooges and tools of the elite to being frightened, re-hashers of press releases who can't or won't do what the posters believe is "proper investigative journalism."
I would suggest they are poorly paid, over worked people who barely have time to digest the truth nevermind manipulate it.
Whereas the voice of the people range from RE's daily attacks on the SNP to the Nationalists daily it's a conspiracy against Scotland - I would think journalists, who deal with the for want of a better term "movers and shakers" on a regular basis would have a slightly more informed view.
Plus, do you honestly think this blog is used by anyone to reach an informed opinion?
By the way "salaries of 25k to 40k is more normal for experienced journalists".
Only at the BBC!
I know the editor of a national magazine, who is paid less than the sales people, he's on just 19,000, the basic journalists at Clyde only get around 16K so I don't where you get your figures and those in local papers are lucky if they get 14,000.
NUJ is a toothless creature.
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#92 Bloggger "Lastly, there are many jobs where you earn 12k and have to work anti-social hours, so what's your point?"
Well, how many of those jobs require a post graduate education?
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Brian,
Shouldn't your headline have at least 2 question marks:
Post Crisis ? Rescue ?
This is not exactly post crisis, more likely just the beginning, and we will just have to wait and see whether it is indeed a "rescue" or a "buy votes now, voters pay later" type of scenario, which I suspect it is.
If GB and AD had just built up a nice surplus to act as a cushion for an event like this, then the impact could have been greatly reduced.
No forward thinking, no forward planning, no preparation.
Talk Westminster up, talk Labour up, talk Scotland down.
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Re #96
While this blog may be proof of attacks on journalists, it is not proof that they are right and even-handed in their writings.
I'm sorry, you talk of the supercilious attitude of the public while defending brigadierjohns postings such as #48, that's more than a little rich.
While I accept that journalists may have a more informed view, this still does not guarantee a more informed and balanced article. You continue to make the assumption that all journalists are honest unbiased brokers of information.
I suspect from your posting you are either a journalist, or related to one. If you have one, perhaps you can please state your vested interest.
Re #97, it's still not the only job where people get these sort of wages, but need a degree. Careers are chosen, you are not forced into it.
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81. freakowski
Sorry, you were bye-kill in fishing for brigadier off the North East coast.
Feel free to use the S**t word as you please and continue to post. Even I don't know everything 8-)
PS I think most of them do
PPS I don't. You could be a talking Kracowsca
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Re 80
I agree with this sentiment. All the parties are battling on how to make this as painless as possible, which really can't be done.
We need to be having a debate on public services, what we want how much we want and how it is to be paid for. If we carry on as we are the wrong things will get cut and no long term plan will exist.
We never have had a long term plan for most of our public services, the longest term is between elections.
We need a sustainable plan that delivers the services cost effectively in a way that takes some of the politics out of the argument.
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#86 and #96 Blackivar: Thanks for telling it like it is. So many people have an aversion to unwelcome truths these days. I was lucky to get in at the very peak of Scottish journalism, the 60s, and so my subsequent pay was based on a high starting point. But £12k is about the going rate for a talented young journalist today. It's absolutely scandalous what they are expected to do for that.
#99 blogger: I didn't really make the claim that journalists were paragons of virtue, fairness and accuracy. My original point was that, when their political arguments are shot to pieces and voters turn against them, party apologists tend to blame the media, who, by and large, only report what the politicians say. Journalist commentators, as opposed to reporters, are free to have an opinion on what's said and reported.
If you go back to your original reply to me, I think in fairness you will recognise it as a rather nasty attack, entirely without a positive point, and based on 50-year-old stereotypes created by Humphrey Bogart.
I wish I had a pound for every pig-ignorant politician who thanked me for putting his garbled, incoherent comments into English to make him look good.
And, of course, the antidote to political complaints, is to report the speakers verbatim. Some of the bad English and nonsense spelling on this blog looks good by comparison. You only have to do it once to silence a politician forever.
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Most people are completely missing the point.
This is a desperate gamble to stave off the results of economic incompetence by buying time for a Labour Government who had destroyed the UK's public finances for a generation before this crisis (mainly but not exclusively the result of the US and the UK's behaviour) fell upon us.
I have been writing and forecasting this inevitability in publications I contribute to for at least three years.
This was a political not a economic statement and all we have done is take out a bigger credit card with much much higher payments to make on it.
The simple point is that we (the UK) do not produce as much as we consume.
We have sailed along under Gordon Brown on a growing tide of national and personal debt to support this consumption which he has had the effrontery to describe as economic growth.
As a nation the UK is effectively bankrupt and while Brown gets away with (perhaps) today he will not get away with it tomorrow.
History will record this as the first days of a failed UK state.
The only sensible solution is a tightening of belts, wage restraint, massively slashed public spending and an long term campaign to reactivate productive manufacturing.
We have to live within our means.
This would be extremely painful so don't expect the sensible solution. It is estimated that up to a third of jobs in UK are provided directly or indirectly by national or local Government. This is unsustainable.
We have been in cloud cuckoo land for far too long.
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#97 Blackivar
My fiance earns considerably more than 12k, doesn't work anti-social hours and doesn't have a post graduate education. I digress, its considerably less than what I earn and I do have a graduate education.
We are both under 25.
I wish people would stop blaming their/their mates lack of work-worthyness on everyone else/the economy/the rich/the big bad man wot done it.
If you are willing to do something Worthwhile, note the key word there. Not Basket-weaving, colouring in or fluffing cushions, people will pay you to do it!
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#104 BrianSH: My goodness! What a smart, self-satisfied little couple you must make! It's rare to find such an air of superiority among those doing "worthwhile" jobs. I tug my greying forelock, sir.
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Brian - describing the PBR as a "post crisis rescue plan" is very misleading.
Certainly we are not "post crisis" but still "in crisis". In fact for all we know we might well be just at the beginning of the crisis and it's going to get a lot worse from here on.
It could also be that in fact we will never recover fully from the crisis because our "system" has been so badly damaged it is irrepairable.
Who knows?
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Politicians leading from the front, aye richt! Just lets see them take hefty pay cuts in salary / expenses......this bunch are indeed true amateurs and they do it for the love of the money!!
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Correction for the BBC who state that the extra fuel duty will mean that drivers are no better off as it cancells out the cut in VAT...
... none of us are better off as it will now cost more for food and every other product as fuel affects production costs and transport costs.
This budget is a joke... a give away?
What exactly is being given away? All I see is a few crumbs such as pensioners getting 60 quid. I believe there is a little slight of hand going on here with Darling trying to pay for Wars, the future ID cards and new Trident.
It is time Scotland rid herself of the disgrace of the unionist idiots in London. They got us into this mess and we are the only ones who will be able to get ourselves free of it.
Saor Alba!
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#77
Franko, who is the "English finance minister" you refer to?
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#89 Blackivar
"Hey, 2 for 1 - Mods please delete one."
No chance. Your best bet is to shop yourself by pressing the Complain link on one of them and report it as accidental SPAM. If you do it before anyone else does, it won't go on your "record" as misbehaviour.
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#103 -sneckedagain- excellent post.
yesterday's charade was indeed all about political posturing and for some a drink from the last chance saloon.
despite all the things announced yesterday neither labour or the Tory's are planning to change the course that they are both on at the moment.
they have given the banks £billions with no guarantee that they will do as the govt has asked of them .
this sums up the state of our political classes who can't negotiate their way out of a wet paper bag, with the banks running rings round them.
they have given big business Cart- Blanche to do whatever they like and big buisness are not about to hand it back are they?
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All the main retailers will have their products ticketed for christmas. To change these (when on display) will cause a major headache. Not to mentioned that pricing policy is dictated by psychologial effects such as not £10 only £9.99, do you think that retailers will then re-ticket (incurring the associated cost) an item down to 9.78? Those who price at round pounds do so to save on the costs of holding loose change in their stores - again - not going to pass on the vat reduction. Retailers are already trying blanket sale promotions to encorage shoppers - they now have a 2.5% discount to play with, small change in 40% off! The only items where consumers will benefit wholesale from this vat reduction is high value items which are priced up to included vat - computers to cars! High value.... not exactly helping those on lower earnings?
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#93 Anaxim
So we agree that a diverse economy is a good thing.
You suggest that we stop providing luxury goods, but make no proposition as to anything to replace it.
Indeed since we know that Scotland (less than but similar to the UK as a whole) has a structural imbalance already, we should be looking to add a lot more before removing anything.
I'm afraid that your logic escapes me.
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#109 salmonella
"Franko, who is the "English finance minister" you refer to?"
You ought to know. He is your finance minister. Oh, I do apologize. I see what is mystifying you. You like to call him the Chancer of the Chequer Board, or some such thing, don't you? How quaint. So many archaic titles in English government. I bet you don't know what half of them mean. Let us hope that your Chancer knows the one about the Chiltern Hundreds and applies for the stewardship of the same before his stewardship of the Chequer Board makes today's dire OECD prediction come true, according to which the UK economy will shrink by 1.1 per cent in 2009 and thus suffer more than that of any other G7 state even though the English finance minister claimed yesterday in the English parliament that England was better prepared to meet the challenges of the prevailing economic climate than other countries. Which other countries? Tristan da Cunha? Zimbabwe?
One cannot help noticing that the Governor of the Bank of England - or should that be the Bank of the UK, as it is supposed to be the central bank of the UK? - is today manifesting his own pessimistic forebodings, as the commercial banks continue to fail to play ball so far as lending is concerned. What, pray, will your Chancer of the Chequer Board do about that little problem? Take the lot completely into state ownership and run them himself? Using whose money? Not more borrowing, surely?
Take the blinkers off. Chickens are coming home to roost. The reality of the UK's true economic position is at last being revealed, and the English finance minister knows it.
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Scotland needs a free and impartial press.
This mess was created and designed by the occupants of Downing St and Whitehall.
Europeans are blaming the US and UK for the mess.
Wouldn't it be nice for Scots to have view other than the mess was imported from the US and it hit us by suprise that is punted out by UK media?
Bungler's prints are all over this crisis. Won't be long before he is blaming immigrants and foreigners. SIlly me, he's done that already:-)
A McG
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#112 nuddayr
If the temporary VAT reduction has any effect on sales, it's going be down to a psychological factor that "things are cheaper", rather than individual pricing.
I think VAT actually has to be seen as part of the package of survival support for businesses, rather than as an economic stimulus.
Whenever this recession/depression ends, the more businesses that survive, should mean a more rapid revival of the economy.
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#116
Oldnat, you are sounding very labourish these days........I LIKE THAT!
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#116
Rest easy... The VAT reduction will have little or no impact on sales.
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A.Darling has singlehandedly wiped out sales for this week, as most people will now wait until the reduced VAT rate comes into effect.
What a disaster.
And the cost of this change, surely much higher than any scare mongering about a Local Income Tax, which already has the mechanisms in place to collect it.
Changing VAT this close to Christmas, as has already been stated by other posters, will do nothing to boost sales, but will cost retailers time and money which they do not have to make the changes.
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Alasdair #115 this is one of the things i was thinking about in my answer#95 to Dorothy's question #90.
is it just a coincidence that more than 90% of all journalist's and so called "experts" that appear on the BBC alone, all support one party?
oh well so much for impartiality
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#114 Franko
Oh I see, you mean the Scottish MP who is the UK Chancellor - why didn't you just say that?
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Salmondella:
No, I believe Franko happens to be talking about Alistar Darling, the English-Scottish person, who is the UK Chancellor.
Mind you, its rather common to misrepresent Alistar Darling. I do believe many forget that the man was born in England to Scottish parents.
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#121 salmondella
Of course, since the UK Government also doubles up as the English Government on non-reserved matters, The Chancellor is also "the Scottish MP who is the English Finance Minister."
:-)
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#117 derekbarker
If Ed Iglehart weren't still away fighting the American election and its aftermath, he would give you the reminder that he so often does -
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#113
I'm suggesting that the luxury brand be de-emphasised in favour of something more affordable, not that luxury goods be stopped completely.
For example, instead of using a ton of political energy getting Trump's development passed, the SNP ought to have improved public transport links with every tourist attraction. Instead of promoting Scotland to Russian oligarchs, they should be promoting it to ordinary people in the UK.
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#125 Anaxim
The trouble with both those constituencies is that neither is going to have any money soon.
Could we promote luxury rain to those rich Arabs (Brian, of course, excluded) ?
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#125 Anaxim
Improving "public transport links with every tourist attraction" sounds as if it would cost a lot of public money - certainly more than the tourism budget. What would you cut to pay for it?
It would be interesting to know what your costed estimates are.
Are you suggesting that Golf Tourism Scotland should close down?
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Anaxim:
#125.
"For example, instead of using a ton of political energy getting Trump's development passed, the SNP ought to have improved public transport links with every tourist attraction."
I find no substance to your comment here. Trump's development came at no direct cost to our Scottish Government. The difference between that and by creating public transport links with every tourist attraction would be the cost and the money generated from each project.
Could you perhaps explain the difference in terms of jobs and profit that each project would generate? It may look good on paper but in reality we may be better off with Trump's development.
I would not mind easier links with tourist attractions over Scotland, some hippies will no doubt kick up a fuss though.
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#2 Have the Holyrood lot offered to take a pay cut either? No, didn't think so.....
#77 He's the BRITISH CHANCELLOR. If you can't get that basic bit of info right, why should I accept that anythng else you wrote is correct?
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#129 GlasgowGooner
Accuracy please!
He is the Chancellor of the Exchequer (and Second Lord of the Treasury) for the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.
What have you got against the Northern Irish?
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#129 GlasgowGooner
The Holyrood MSPs are not responsible for this mess. It's MPs at Westminster as money is a reserved matter. Not that I blame you, I'm still trying to get my brain round the Scotland Act. Why should what I borrow from the library be a reserved matter?
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#115 Alasdair_McGray
"Europeans are blaming the US and UK for the mess."
I agree with most of what you say, but as frankly_francophone implies, the French, the Italians, the Spanish and most other nationalities blame the Americans and the English. I can attest from personal experience that throughout most of Europe, UKish = British = English as far as almost everyone is concerned, even when the English language is widely spoken and understood. OTOH my Canadian friends tend to take umbrage if called American, which is of course exactly what they are!
#121 salmondella &
#129 GlasgowGooner
frankly_francophone was not extracting the Michael. Capt. Darling is routinely referred to as the English finance minister in the francophone media. As oldnat's #123 points out, on non-reserved matters that's precisely what he is.
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Oldnat and Thomas Porter.
You're reading too much into my comment about improving public transport, and ignoring my wider point about how we shouldn't be overemphasising luxury in promoting Scotland. Would you agree that the money spent on promoting Scotland to wealthy Russians has been largely wasted?
Returning to public transport, it was an example of how the time spent on advancing the Trump development could have been better spent. Getting a fairer settlement from the transport companies, for example. Improving public transport links needn't be fantastically expensive, it could be as simple as modifying bus routes and improving signage, information and footpaths. Hardly bank-breaking stuff.
I'd not cut Golf Tourism Scotland, I'd just ask it to refocus itself to reflect current economic realities.
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#133 Anaxim
"Would you agree that the money spent on promoting Scotland to wealthy Russians has been largely wasted?"
No, because you have provided no information on the costs involved and the revenue gained/anticipated. Provide the data, and I'll look at it.
"modifying bus routes and improving signage, information and footpaths"
These are local government functions. I'm surprised that you are suggesting that the Government should attempt to micromanage local government. Seems rather illiberal to me.
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Anaxim:
#133.
"Would you agree that the money spent on promoting Scotland to wealthy Russians has been largely wasted?"
As far as I am aware, trade between Russia and Scotland has increased over the years. Could this have happened because of those wealthy Russians? If it makes money, why stop it?
I agree with Oldnat that you have to provide figures. I agree with much that you say but it only looks good on paper and may not work im reality.
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Crash Course
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Russia is heavily dependent on commodity prices (especially oil) for its wealth. Or rather, the wealth of its ruling class. It's hardly counter-intuitive to suggest that it faces difficulties in the future and does not represent a sound market for luxury goods.
A cost-benefit analysis does not exist, and even if it did, the information would be out of date. It's a hunch I have. Perhaps I'm wrong, and luxuries really are recession-proof. But it's better to alter course now, rather than wait until we're on the rocks.
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#137. At 10:26am on 26 Nov 2008, Anaxim wrote:
- But it's better to alter course now, rather than wait until we're on the rocks. -
Well, now we know you're not Gordon!
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