Not 'if', but 'when'
She finished strongly, did Nicola Sturgeon. She was confident and controlled.
But this was also one of the most persistent and well-argued challenges mounted by the Opposition at Holyrood.
The topic? Clostridium Difficile or c.Diff.
More particularly, the splendid investigation by my colleague Sam Poling on BBC Scotland which has disclosed the inadequacies of the investigation into the outbreak at the Vale of Leven Hospital.
For Labour, Iain Gray got to work. Why no public inquiry? Why was the health secretary the only remaining obstacle to such scrutiny?
It was an entirely legitimate question: well-mustered and well-presented.
It fell to Ms Sturgeon to respond directly because she was standing in for the indisposed first minister.
Past responsibility
Questioned first by Mr Gray and then by Annabel Goldie, she never wavered.
Only at one point did she resort to suggesting, mildly in passing, that some responsibility might lie with delays occasioned by the previous administration.
Mostly, she took it.
She listed short and long term efforts to resolve the problem: single rooms for patients in future; new hand washing regimes; new responsibility for senior nurses; no more privatisation of cleaning contracts.
But still - and rightly - Mr Gray persisted. Why no full public inquiry - when the immediate inquiry had been shown by the BBC to be insufficient?
Let's cut to the chase, here. I believe it is highly likely there will be such a public inquiry. I believe, further, it is largely a question of when not if.
The health secretary's judgement is that she should not announce such an inquiry now while police inquiries into the deaths are continuing.
Exceptionally prolonged
Those inquiries, she indicated, might result in a Fatal Accident Inquiry or, possibly, prosecution.
As Iain Gray pointed out, that process does not of itself preclude a public inquiry. Ms Sturgeon stressed she had never relied upon such a point.
The police inquiries will proceed. If truncated, a public inquiry would, in all probability, follow.
My belief is that, if those inquiries are exceptionally prolonged, then Ms Sturgeon will exercise her power to call a public inquiry regardless.
I'm 
© MMX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~39~RS~)
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In my view, perhaps there should be prosecutions.
I think Nicola Sturgeon is far more professional than Alex Salmond has been of late. Apart from a minor gripe immediately after the Glenrothes result, she has consistently shown she is a better leader. She does not resort to petty humour, something Alex does on frequent occasion.
I'm going to stick my neck out here:
Unless something drastically improves over the next two years, I cannot see the SNP much improving their position. That will leave the door open to a leadership challenge
A few people on here think Alex Salmond is absolutely fantastic. Well, he's not. He is considerably better than most of the opposition but that makes him look better than he is. Recent events have knocked the odd hole in him and some of his arguments have hit brick walls.
If Nicola Sturgeon puts in a good performance in her role, and an enquiry is open and gives ALL the facts, then she will do well.
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Brian, I love the Freudian "ill-disposed" instead of "indisposed." Alex is ill-disposed a lot of the time these days.
However, I don't think we should waste time on public inquiries or blaming Nicola Sturgeon. I think she is doing her best, and is heavily reliant on professional expertise. As for police inquiries, they'd be better off patrolling the streets.
I'm sorry, I just don't see this as a political issue, and certainly not a criminal issue. Can we not just let the professionals learn their lessons and get on with it?
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Re #2: I should have added that public inquiries are the biggest waste of time and money ever devised, and a call for one by a political figure equates to an admission of his own uselessness.
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This is an extremely serious matter of course. People have died and perhaps more people will die in the future due to this infection. All the more reason then to treat it with respect and try to defeat it.
In my opinion it is not at all helpfull to attempt to score party political points on the matter. Mr. Grey obviously has the best interests of the future patients at heart (as have all others involved) but if he were to acknowledge that the system in use at the time of these deaths was the system of poor organisation and privatised cleaning put in place by the administration of New Labour and the Lib Dems at least we would be seeing a less partisan approach. As things stand he seems to be prepared to accept no responsibility for these matters.
It would seem that the media is also quite happy to imply that the problem lies with the present administration. This doesn't do much for the credibility of the media.
An attempt to improve the matter has been announced and only the passing of time will allow a judgement on these new measures.
There was a time when journalism was claimed to be a valuable tool for getting at the truth, these days journalists don't seem to try too hard to get at the truth.
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The cleanliness in our hospitals became, a problem after Margaret Thatcher privatised the cleaning services.
All successive governments have failed to redress this problem, until Ms Sturgeon announced, that there would be no more private contracts given out.
For Labour and Tory MSP`s to try and score
political points on this dreadful event, just shows how low these MSP,s can sink.
Why can`t all MSP`s in Hollyrood work together to make Scotland a better and safer place.
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2. At 3:01pm on 20 Nov 2008, brigadierjohn wrote:
I'm sorry, I just don't see this as a political issue, and certainly not a criminal issue. Can we not just let the professionals learn their lessons and get on with it?
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I disagree, and this is why:
My local hospital was rebuilt a few years ago, and typical of the NHS nowadays has a Chief Executive.
They were randomly inspected for cleanliness a few years ago, and failed in spectacular fashion.
Their excuse, as quoted in the media: "we were not expecting an inspection that day."
That attitude shows that costs were more important than hygiene and patient care.
And when my second son was born in a nearby (new built) hospital, there were dirty swabs on the floor of the ward for three days. But the nurses weren't allowed to pick them up. They do a wonderful job but are hamstrung by stupid rules.
I'm no fan of the SNP but Nicola Sturgeon at least appears to be making an effort to rectify tis market economy that is the NHS.
Improving hygiene and cleaniness in hospitals is cost effective as it reduces the chances of infection.
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# 2,3 brigadierjohn
I agree with most of what you say except it doesn't take an expert to get people to wash their hands with ordinary soap, not fancy antiseptic gels, and water which is the first line of defense.
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Public inquiries are a waste of time and public money although a handy source of income for retired politicians and ex judges. All that is required is a team of inspectors with access to a non health service lab to inspect and swab hospitals. Then they must be given the power to sack those responsible for cleanliness instantly if standards are unacceptable. If those in post cannot do their job, there are people out there who can. No doubt the unions would object to this approach, but then the health service unions have always objected to anything that doesn't make life easier for them.
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Is Salmond still avoiding showing his face?! What jolly is he on now?
5. "Why can`t all MSP`s in Hollyrood work together to make Scotland a better and safer place."
Strange how nationalists weren't calling for this when Labour were in power...
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On the whole, I have the distinct impression that, for all that Mr Gray plugged away manfully at the points listed in his script, from which, again, he had not the confidence to raise his gaze much, although he must surely have had plenty of time to master his briefing, the Deputy First Minister, with the able assistance of the Lib Dem leader, prevailed.
Her argument was sound concerning a public inquiry on the health issue raised by Mr Gray, and she was consistent. There may have to be a public inquiry, which she has not ruled out, but it hardly seems appropriate for a government to be pushed into rushing into one while the Crown Office and the police are still proceeding with theirs. With due respect to the BBC, media reports are all very well and can undoubtedly serve a useful purpose, but, really, experience of them from within government tells one that governments which are easily swayed by them are more concerned about public perceptions than with discharging their responsibilities effectively. This issue requires a responsible government which concerns itself with the facts and due process. While one appreciates the seriousness and urgency of the hospital-acquired-infections problem, nothing that I have heard leads me to believe that the SNP government is in any way remiss in its handling of it. On the contrary, the ending of private cleaning contracts is a bold move which Scottish Labour must be wishing that it had made itself while in government.
On the subject of the banking issues raised by Mr Scott, it is apparent that there is widespread dissatisfaction with the UK Labour administration's handling of them. There would appear to be little point in chastising Mr Gray about that, however, as he is, as Ms Sturgeon took the opportunity to point out at the beginning of FMQs, not the leader of the Labour Party in Scotland.
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#7. cynicalHighlander said:
"...it doesn't take an expert to get people to wash their hands with ordinary soap, not fancy antiseptic gels, and water which is the first line of defense."
It might not take an expert, but washing your hands is an ineffective precaution against C Diff, irrespective of its effects on other bugs.
The whole point of this stuff is that whichever administration is in charge, this stuff happens. virtualpostie in #5 is absolutely correct, the rot set in with initial ancillary function privatisation, continued under labour and as yet unchallenged by the SNP. Labour have a complete and utter cheek posturing on this.
However, I do remember when Nicola used to be just as irritating in opposition making points scoring nonsense from other primarily staff related incompetences dressed up as political mistakes.
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Virtualpostie #5 wrote:
"Why can`t all MSP`s in Hollyrood work together to make Scotland a better and safer place."
Because they are politicians! There seems to be this idea that politicians at Holyrood are somehow different to their cousins at Westminster - they are not. This idea is probably what leads some posters to believe that in an independent Scotland everything would be sweetness, light and harmony - it wouldn't. Politics would still be politics and the needs and wishes of the electorate would still come a poor second to politicians scoring political points over their opponents. That will be true whichever party holds power, and in a devolved or sovereign parliament. To believe anything else is pure delusion; to expect it is tragic.
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10. What a balanced, objective and non-partisan post!
Sturgeon is on the phone for you, she wants a coffee.
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Fascinating article in The Times the other day, which has seemingly been missed by the regulars on this site.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/scotland/article5183447.ece
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For those of you who haven't seen it Douglas Fraser now has a Scotland Business blog.
Another place where we can repeat the same old arguments!
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1. Death of Victoria Climbié
2. Public Inquiry
3. Recommendations put in place.
4. Death of Baby P
As has been shown many times public inquiries don't resolve all and every problem.
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# 11. irnbru_addict
'How is the bacterium transmitted?
It produces hardy spores, which are carried in a sufferer's liquid faeces, and these can contaminate the area around an infected patient's bed. Poor hygiene can lead to a serious outbreak. The spores are not destroyed by the alcohol wipes now used by doctors and nurses to prevent the spread of most bacteria. Surfaces must be cleaned with bleach, and hands thoroughly washed with soap and water.'
Q&A: C difficile
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#3, brigadierjohn wrote:
"Re #2: I should have added that public inquiries are the biggest waste of time and money ever devised, and a call for one by a political figure equates to an admission of his own uselessness."
I wholeheartedly agree:
1.) The money spent on holding an inquiry (which usually ends up stating the obvious) would be better spent in providing a remedy;
2.) Politicians should expect to be able to procure expert opinion as to how to tackle any problem, without any need for 'inquiry' status;
3.) In providing evidence (or otherwise contributing) to an inquiry, the attendant publicity may inhibit the saying of the politically unsayable [e.g. doctors demonising medical practice];
4.) Horses, stable doors, mistakes being learnt, moving on...
In addition, far too many inquiry reports seem to be undertaken in a manner pandering to the vanity of the inquiry chairman.
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For a useful description of C diff in the USA see the Wall Street Journal's Health blog.
Read some of the postings and be very glad that we have the NHS in Scotland - despite its failings.(Naturally the blog is in their Business section - where else would you place health in the USA!)
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This is actually two examples of the duplicity and hypocrisy of the SNP and the nationalists.
They expect all MSPs to work together "for Scotland" now but did not make any such demands for the SNP to do so when Labour were in power.
And now there's all this nationalist rejection of a public inquiry when that was the SNP's favourite weapon on so many occasions. Google 'public inquiry SNP' for some examples!
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The public are weary. People are dying. Here's a novel idea! Instead of spending money on a public inquiry talk-shop just pay people (employed by the NHS) to clean up, and keep cleaning, the filthy hospitals. End of.
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#20 Reluctant-Expat
It is, of course, an example of the "duplicity and hypocrisy" of all politicians!
The Lab/Libs opposed public enquiries when they were in power, and the Tories the same in London when they were lat in power.
It's called politics, and oppositions call for public enquiries because they're not in a position to do anything themselves.
You're in opposition. Get used to it, and stop whining.
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My son very nearly died after contracting cDiff in an Edinburgh hospital earlier this year. He had been admitted with pneumonia but, didn't pick up as he should have done after his release and was back in hospital in intensive care, severely and dangerously ill 10 days later. cDiff was the diagnosis and the reason he survived for all he had excellent care, I believe was much to do with his youth - I doubt an older victim would have been so lucky.
He has since remarked on the Saturday morning doctor in a bad mood who stomped in to his (single) cubicle, examined him and stomped out, without washing his hands before or after; watching the cleaner washing the floor in his cubicle including the toilet then dragging the same wet floor mop through to the next cubicle; a visitor to his bedside being told by a nurse to put on a plastic apron and gloves because 'there was a bigwig in the vicinty' but never a requirement at any other time.
It's not a public inquiry that's needed, but a protocal with training for ALL in best practice and the right people in place to make sure it is rigorously enforced.
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Nicola could have pointed out the the collapsing physical condition of Vale of Leven Hospital and the collapsed morale of the staff there was entirely due to the last two decades of Tory and Labour mismanagement of the Scottish NHS - as is the case with the fabric of our Health Service across the country.
That she remains, at all times, controlled, calm and constructive does her huge credit.(Or should I say "focused, fearless and forward-looking?)
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re post 23# I should add that my son's observations refer to when he was a out of danger and moved from Intensive care to the ward but still in a single bed room.
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22. Oldnat: You're in opposition. Get used to it, and stop whining.
Not for much longer, sunshine. Your precious party is coming apart at the seams after only 18 months!
Enjoy your brief stint in the limelight but don't let the door hit you on the way back into the wilderness.
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Sneckedagain,
Loved your whinge about me "quoting selected statistics" after I pointed out how Swinney did precisely the same reporting a 800m surplus, which was only achievable by not including a whopping 3.5bn in spending.
That's over 10% of the entire Holyrood budget subtracted and ignored, so they could claim a 'surplus'!
That really made me laugh.
The SNP's claims are caught out and discredited time and time again.....yet you nats STILL think they walk on water.
Just because they support independence.
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24. Sneckedagain, how long do the SNP have to be in government before it is THEIR fault?
I notice they took full credit for the continued drop in crime the other month (the tenth consecutive year-on-year drop) as if it was all down to their "achievements in government and proof that the SNP were delivering".
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#23 raisethegame
Glad that your son recovered.
I've never quite understood why we don't have something like the Schools Inspectors for the NHS.
They don't just do routine inspections. If serious concerns about pupil welfare in a school are raised with them, then the first that the school knows of the inspection is that when the staff arrives, HMIe are already there in force and will conduct a full Care Inspection.
They are specialists, independent of the Authority, have seen a large number of schools, and are very difficult to fool.
Their reports do not pull punches, and are made public, including the list of recommendations for instant and longer term action.
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#26 Reluctant-Expat
You have strange attitudes.
Because you are so committed to one party, you imagine that everyone else is the same!
Most of us here, like me, are not committed to any bunch of politicians.
You are one of the few for whom their party is "precious".
Have they found your ear-rings yet?
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Reluctant-Expat,
For all their failings, the SNP have a long way to go to squander the goodwill which carried them home last year.
The fact is that if there was a CREDIBLE alternative in England, neither Labour nor the Tories would stand a chance in 2010.
People don't like politicians, they don't trust politicians, and they vote for those they dislike least.
Few wanted the Tories in 1979, but they wanted rid of Labour; in 1997, the country voted essentially to oust the Conservatives; in 2010, Cameron will clearly be unfit to be PM but he will probably be swept in on an anti-Labour vote.
Party slogans have degenerated into "We're not as bad as the other lot are/would be."
Where is the 'vision thing'?
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Reluctant-Expat:
#26.
"Not for much longer, sunshine. Your precious party is coming apart at the seams after only 18 months!"
Ah, you must be a Tory Toff! Because we all know that the Scottish National Party still remain popular at Holyrood, while at the same time Labour at Westminister will definitely loose the next general election. Labour's 'Scottish' wing at Holyrood are even more incapable of winning Holyrood, unless of course Brown thinks ahead and plans to give the Scottish Parliment a major increase in funding for Labour to buy the peoples vote. "Brown: Anybody got a spare 3 billion pounds?"
The Tories will take and win southern England, the BNP will make gains in the North of England while the Scottish Nationalists take Scotland. How could Labour possibly fend off three very different areas while also winning Government?
Talk about living in some type of fantasy world!
Rule Britannia!!!
Britain's centre of the world!!!
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Reluctant-Expat:
#28.
"24. Sneckedagain, how long do the SNP have to be in government before it is THEIR fault?"
How long? The Scottish Government, under Labour, the SNP, Tories or Lib Dems will be able to be held accountable when funding are their responsibility and also when they have the powers to be more flexible during certain problems! How can we blame parties when their hands are tied behind their back?
If a pigeon had a heart attack in Edinburgh you would be the first to blame the SNP!
"I notice they took full credit for the continued drop in crime the other month (the tenth consecutive year-on-year drop) as if it was all down to their "achievements in government and proof that the SNP were delivering"."
Hmm well it does prove that under the SNP that crime can continue to fall. Since they are the Government I guess the continuence drop in crime is their achievement because its their responsibility!
You would be the first to criticise the SNP if crime spiraled out of control. How pathetic can you become? Even falling crime which should be welcomed, you use the issue to score political points! Just proves you are from Labour. I can never understand why 'you people' can't swallow that the SNP are doing well.
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# 28 Labour's record at Westminster: they are still blaming the Tories after more than a decade. So a hint of double standards that 11 years later Labour blame the Tories, but is unacceptable for the SNP to point to the mistakes of the previous administration less than two years in?!
Incidentally, the SNP is in no danger of losing office at Holyrood, the Scottish public very much prefer having a Scottish Government to a wee pretendy 'Executive' run by the Labour C team.
The SNP would easily win a Holyrood election today ... and Broon's bust (the longest and deepest in Europe, according financial institutions around the world) has yet to rebound on him.
#30 - oldnat, I doubt that insightful comment of yours will hit home with expat!
I happen to be a member of the SNP; however, it is very much the principles and selected policies - and neither the party nor the individual leaders - to which my loyalty is.
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34. At 7:22pm on 20 Nov 2008, pattymkirkwood wrote:
# 28 Labour's record at Westminster: they are still blaming the Tories after more than a decade. So a hint of double standards that 11 years later Labour blame the Tories, but is unacceptable for the SNP to point to the mistakes of the previous administration less than two years in?!
Incidentally, the SNP is in no danger of losing office at Holyrood, the Scottish public very much prefer having a Scottish Government to a wee pretendy 'Executive' run by the Labour C team.
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Good comment. However, the SNP may win an election, but that does not necessarily mean that those who vote for them want independence. That is a potential fatal flaw for the SNP. If they campaign on an independence vote for the next election, they might just lose.
A few people I know who voted for the SNP, and do not like Labour, are now questionning independence. Some of them do not want independence either.
Nicola Sturgeon is being very professional in her approach to these issues. That is what people want, a tangible improvement to their lives.
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once again an important part of life in Scotland is up for debate and all the usual suspects manage to turn this into a "my party's bigger than your party, rant.
as far as i am concerned we should all be aware of the Italian proverb.
politicians are like underwear , they should be changed often , for the same reasons, they have both been known to be full of ......... ( fill it in yourself)
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what is required here is highly trained & competent nurses ,who work in the one ward , cleaners employed by the nhs who also work in the one ward,and a sister who is well prepared to fight for her ward and ensure the standards are kept high,and her team delivers. but to be honest getting nurses and cleaners that actually only work in one hospital per week would be a start.
the reliance on bank staff has reached epidemic level , this is where an awful lot of the nhs budget is spent , paying the company's that supply the bank staff. yet another great idea from our politicians
i couldn't care less who delivers it , i just want to see it delivered , on time and within budget!
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#34 pattymkirkwood
I fully understand people being members / passionate supporters of parties because they share the general thrust of their principles/policies - been there, got 3 T-shirts.
I have sympathy with people like derekbarker, who was clearly a passionate Socialist (though I never understood why he remained loyal to a party that had long abandoned his principles).
I also understand those who don't have any particular political philosophy, but who simply look to whichever lot are in power to do a decent job.
I don't understand people who have a passionate loyalty to one organisation, and a hatred of others and their supporters - even in fitba'!
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Brian
I'm sorry you feel the labour party are so perfect regarding this problem.
May I point out that c.difficile is an infection that has been around since the mid-1900s ( if you scrutinise the records).
Now let's get back to Ian Gray's 'attack'.
The labour/libdem government ought to be quite ashamed about their record and recording of this hospital infection. It has been rising in Scotland's hospitals for the past 12 years.
I expect you'll think 'what does that poster know about it'.
All credit to Nicola Sturgeon. She's taken action immediately. Pity Jackie Baillie hadn't complained about the Vale of Leven to her own government who were in power. But of course she wouldn't do that because she wanted power not people protection.
I think the matter of a public enquiry rather too soon. Although you 'pummeled' your pal after FMQs, he still said a public enquiry would take years and, admittedly, although reluctantly, said the action of a local enquiry by Nicola Sturgeon was what was needed after the disclosure of the outbreak at the Vale of Leven.
My view is that Jackie Baillie ought to have sought far better standards in the Vale of Leven over the past decade. What was she doing? Surely she knew the hospital was not equipped for the numbers which have been accepted when the labour/libdems were in power?
It's not an 18 month or 2 year problem the Vale of Leven. It's a 20 year plus problem.
What were labour doing?
Well, I'm a survivor of c.difficile and I know the feeling of being near death's door. I'm not one of the over 60s that the last labour/libdem government decided would be the only people recorded and I congratulate Nicola Sturgeon and her colleagues for trying so hard to make our hospitals safer.
Labour and the lib dems ought to hang their heads in shame about this problem. I do hope the SNP can produce records prior to May 2007 but of course, the then Scottish governent didn't insist that the under 60s were recorded.
Stop it Ian Gray. This problem now isn't a party political problem it's a serious national problem. For you to bring it up as the ineffectiveness of the Scottish government is just childish. You're messing with the lives of others and mine demanding a public enquiry. That would take years.
As for the BBC programme with Sam Poling last night. It was so concentrated on emotion rather than fact. As High Pendleton said c.diff has been around for many decades. Now we're beginning to record the extent of the infection. To suggest that doctors are not specifying c.diff as a cause of death is to decry today's doctors. C.diff has perhaps been a cause of death in the elderly for generations.
As for the problem about family taking soiled clothing home. When I had to go back to my hospital with c.diff, nothing was said to my next of kin. They had to come home and search on the internet. Eventually I was moved from a surgical ward to a single room. Thankfully my own hygiene avoided any of the 5 ward patients with who, I share, contacting the infection. Hot soap and water handwashes and the same on the shared (between 6) toilet for me. For some reason I realised I had a serious illness before it was diagnosed.
Now all this happened to me in March 2007. Yes before the SNP became the government.
I very much doubt if things would have improved at my local hospital (and improved they have) if it hadn't been for the change of government and Nicola Sturgeon's commitment.
May I apologise for such a long post, but it has to be said that the labour party are crying over their own serious incompetence.
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#26 Ha you think Gordon is getting more popular again ... well think again .... jobless figures are on the rise big time and when the Lloyds Tsb /HBOS merger goes ahead there will be a lot of redundant staff who will be well aware of who changed the rules to let such a merger happen. So id get off your high horse if i were you. Its obvious the SNP is not gonna do everything right and will make some mistakes but this is the first time they have been in charge ... whats Labours/ Torys excuse ???
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#26 Seams are coming apart ? Ill have you know that the seams on Alex's breeks are reinforced !! Oh what hatred in your posts. Sad really.
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Neil_Small147:
#35.
"Good comment. However, the SNP may win an election, but that does not necessarily mean that those who vote for them want independence."
True. But it also works both ways. The statistics which would be out-of-date now once showed up to 10 or 15 percent of 'Unionist' voters would swap to vote for Independence, while almost 10 percent who never vote would to vote in favour of Independence.
But like I have said before the SNP are Pro-Independence but have not offered the people Independence. They campaigned for the referendum that we all want, a vote for the SNP does not suggest that you support Independence or are a Scots Nationalists yourself, that some Union supporters find hard to notice.
"Nicola Sturgeon is being very professional in her approach to these issues. That is what people want, a tangible improvement to their lives."
Perhaps the next leader of the SNP in the making? Alex Salmond will not be around forever, Salmond knows that himself and the SNP know that Salmond has a major influence on the peoples opinion of the party itself. This has happened before, Alex had other matters to handle during Question Time. I would not be suprised if it was on purpose to show what Sturgeon is capable of.
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Nothing to do with this blog but just found this on Ticketmasters site ...... looks like Scotland is independent allready in their eyes !!!!
http://www.ticketmaster.co.uk/artist/967928/?dma_id=607
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#35 Neil, there is truth in what you say. We truly don't know how any independence campaign will play like until it actually happens in a referendum campaign. The SNP will not run on independence in an election, they will run on a referendum on independence amongst other issues.
So much could be so different, and even the concept of such radical change truly being 'in the air' (in a referendum campaign) could make the current situation unrecognizable. Of course, we probably wont find out this term as: Labour, Tory and Liberal are determined to vote down any referendum. When the Tories inevitably regain power at Westminster: no-one knows how that will play ... it may lead to people returning to Labour en masse, it may lead to a serious consideration of independence by many who would never have considered such a radical change previously (even possibly by much of the print press as well).
#38 oldnat - I too know 'good people' trapped in a Labour Party that has long ago abandoned the principles they espouse.
In terms of party politics, this has become a cliche, but: the SNP really is at least as much a 'movement' as a 'party'. This explains why so many attempt to use it as a 'vehicle' toward their eventual desired political system.
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How desperate is Jim Muprhy to find a role for himself?
Not content with trying to negotiate - above his 'pay-level' - with FIFA, now he wants to run the BBC.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7740926.stm
Or at least tell Auntie Beeb what is entertainment.
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A Brief History of C,diff which has been on the go since the early 1970's. This all comes down to the over subscription of antibiotics as preventative, misguided insurance, medicine rather than targeted treatment of specific ailments by doctors.
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#44 pattymkirkwood
Please try not to confuse the LibDems with Liberals.
In any event, the way that Calman seems to be moving, even the LibDems will likely be very disappointed with its results and accordingly more disposed to a multi-choice referendum with fiscal autonomy among the options.
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Reading some of the comments by those who have the misfortune to experience cdiff, I think people would rather see all our MSPs working together.
Nicola Sturgeon decides to act, then Labour should be fully supportive. If she does something that is obviously misleading or wrong, then by all means shout about it.
I think she is a future leader, and to be honest (as I mentioned earlier) I think it will be sooner rather than later.
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QT from Glasgow consisted of London politics with a Scottish accent.
Murphy fell in line by talking about school governors. Maybe he is so divorced from Scottish politics that he doesn't know that we don't have them.
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Tavish has a particular hatred of both Salmond and independence. I am yet to be convinced that the Lib Dems are anything other than a semi-detached wing of Labour in Scotland. I hope to be proven wrong ... but consider how they have been acting since the last election, consider he fact they are even involved in the Calman Commission - what did they think London Labour and the Tories would dream up together?
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35
Independence
We did a survey in our constituency on which we distributed over 25,000 questionaires with a Freepost envelope to help replies to come in. We got over 2000 responses
On the question of how a person would vote on a straighforward yes or no referendum on Independence..........
0f those who identified themselves as Libdem supporters 54% said they would vote "yes"
Of those who identified themselves as Labour supporters 67% said they would vote "yes"
Of those who identified themselves as Tory supporters 22% said they would vote "yes"
Of those who identified themselves as SNP supporters 88% said they would vote "yes"
The three persons who identified themselves as supporters of the then SSP said they would vote "yes".
This constituency is not urban and has a long history of strong SNP support but the figures surprised us nonetheless. The reason we are having huge opposition to a referendum is the suspicion the Labour Party holds that its natural support is not actually opposed to independence at all. The opposition comes from the vested interest of it elected members in the continuance of the British State.
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#49 oldnat
That was certainly pretty obvious from the moment an English Tory was introduced before the Deputy FM. Doesn't bode too well for the move of QT to a Scottish base.
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Brian,
You should be concentrating on the more important issues of the day such as John Sargeants demise in "Strictly Come Dancing"
Even our Scottish Secretary has admitted to watching it and even had an opinion (or was it Gordon Brown pulling the strings)
Murphy's Moment
There is a more serious note to this in that as license payers we have to watch what we are told, and when given a choice our choice is kicked into touch by a bunch of no mark celebrities.
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Brian,
You should be concentrating on the more important issues of the day such as John Sargeants demise in "Strictly Come Dancing"
Even our Scottish Secretary has admitted to watching it and even had an opinion (or was it Gordon Brown pulling the strings)
Murphy's Moment
There is a more serious note to this in that as license payers we have to watch what we are told, and when given a choice our choice is kicked into touch by a bunch of no mark celebrities.
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#35 Neil_Small147
I've been thinking about your comments re Sturgeon and Expat's sneers about Salmond's being less visible.
I'm wondering if Salmond is actually the most extraordinary politician of our time - one who has been widely recognised as a consummate politician, but who puts principle above personal advancement.
He restructured the SNP into a viable political party through persuading them to adopt "Independence in Europe", and took them to being the principal opposition in the Scottish Parliament.
He thought John Swinney would be an effective replacement as leader. However, Swinney (although he has proved himself an excellent minister - especially in the Finance brief) didn't cut it in this personality dominated age as leader.
Hence Salmond returned as leader with Sturgeon as Deputy. While the economy was going well, Salmond's "cheeky chappie" style was appropriate and took the SNP to Government.
Nicola Sturgeon has blossomed in her role, and her concentration on effective delivery is more appropriate during the circumstances that we are now experiencing.
Angus Robertson has done a good job as SNP leader at Westminster, but will never get the media coverage that Salmond will in that ludicrous bear pit.
Given that the economic crisis is likely to mean the SNP losing rather than gaining votes in the next couple of years, a joint leadership of the SNP - Salmond at Westminster, Sturgeon in Holyrood may make a lot of sense.
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Brian
Ian Bell's article in the Herald suggests something more subtle going on at FMQs on this issue of C Diff. Can you elucidate?
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Neil #1,#6,#35,#48 .... are you Nicola's new campaign manager .... or is it you want her to whisper sweet hospital waiting list figures into your ear lol
#14 Hardly a balanced story that one 'Even the normal “blame London for everything that goes wrong” approach to government doesn't work for the SNP when Westminster is represented in Scotland by the cunning Jim Murphy. ' .... cunning ...cunning is usually used for a fox ..... weasely would be more apt. Beside the Times can hardly be called impartial in any way since its a Murdoch rag. Its looking like The Sun is about to jump ship to the Tories. Mandy was being courted by Rupert for something but since the Russian billionaire incident hes probably under a lot more scrutiny now and is of no use. Dave on the other hand was used to attack the BBC funding ..... and what paper was this in ... you guessed it ..The Sun
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# 11
'It might not take an expert, but washing your hands is an ineffective precaution against C Diff, irrespective of its effects on other bugs.'
That's the type of misinformation which angers me.
Washing your hands thoroughly with soap and hot water is the only effective precaution against c.difficile. Gels etc are no good against this bug. Please wash your hands when entering and leaving a hospital.
I speak as a survivor of c.difficile and know what I'm talking about.
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Reluctant expat you are really beginning to bore the pants off me and probably a few others on your constant bashing of the SNP maybe its your ploy, can you say one possitive thing about them? probably not but never mind either can your party. If your party was such the bees knees there would never have been any problems in our country in the first place going by the way you talk them up,oops!! no that can`t be true your to busy bashin SNP, so your party lost power in Scotland because they couldn`t do there job its as simple as that get over it and Yes MSP`s should work together for the good of Scotland but the scottish labour party are like you and can`t see past there noses .Is it scottish labour or uk labour mmmm is there a thing called scottish labour nowadays.
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Scottish Labour's answer to everything seems to revolve around demands for enquiries.
Have these people nothing to offer Scotland by way of policies?
I watched part of the programme on C-Diff the other night and had to switch off due to the antics of the drama queen presenting it.
Her manner and language made it appear that she was reporting on the biggest cover up since Watergate, instead of a bug that's been around for decades.
Any chance of an investigation into Marshall's £500,000? .... or the real facts behind Wendygate and the emails? - no chance.
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Just some minor points.
I see people blaming the privatisation of cleaning services for the growth of C-diff cases.
At the Vale, where the deaths were most numerous, cleaning is inhouse, not private.
And with regards it's Labour's fault, well, while not totally blameless, I would suggest the real villains were Greater Glasgow and Clyde Health Board, who have until relatively recently shown a great reluctance to invest in the "Clyde" area they inherited from the break up of Argyll and Clyde Health Board.
While Mr Kerr didn't help when he was Health Minsiter, (that's an understatement, I know) I do remember Jackie Baillie campaigning for a return of services to the Vale back then, (similar in a way to Duncan McNeil in Inverclyde) she wasn't silent on the subject, just ineffectual (unlike Mr McNeil who manage to retain services at the IRH).
On Brian's points, I believe he is correct in saying a public inquiry will come - there are the families of 18 people who died from C-Diff persistently calling for action, I do not think they'll be easily brushed aside.
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Oldnat,
I was in the QT studio audience last night and cannot believe the questions asked. Do Scottish people really care more about the BNP than the Calman commission or HBOS or East Lothian etc, etc.
I despair of the media in this country.
Rant over, sorry about going off topic
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I was very impressed by Nicola on FMQs, She could have blamed Labour at every turn but she didn't, she let Ian Gray rant on. She's a wee foxy lady.
Jackie Baillie is her own worst enemy she has the makings of an MP but she just complying with the party line , especially when Labour had power.
If she crossed the floor to SNP or pushed the latest 60/40 Tax proposal to Calman she could make a big impact.
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#62
My feelings entirely. The questions were obviousy 'selected' to suit the wider audience ie viewers in England. Even more telling when, according to a BBC 'map' re the UK-wide spread of the BMP membership from the leaked membership list, Scotland as virtually no members.
I was not impressed by Mr Murphy who will say anything to ingratiate himself ..and agree to anything if it advances his party's cause rather than Scotland's. The audience did not seem blinded by 'all our problems can be laid at America's sub-prime mortgages' guff either..
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Re CDIFF
The analysis of some here is rather too simplistic. To conquer CDIFF requires a multi-pronged attack. Hand washing alone won't be enough, improved cleaning won't be enough, improved maintenance won't be enough. But properly co-ordinated all three together will make a difference.
Cleaning and maintenance budgets have been cut by the SNP administration, no doubt. But they were alos cut by the previous Labour / Liberal administration. So no points for anyone there.
At least Nicola has recognised the problem and is serious about sorting it. I genuinely believe she is working hard and trying her best and achieving some sucess. Apart from the woeful attampt at politics on carparking charges she has doen well.
But constantly making a political football out of this issue is a waste of time. It doesn't sort out an issue that all politicians are partly responsible for and it is not clever. But again to balance Nicola Sturgeon was quick to criticise Andy Kerr at every turn and he to did a good job.
Public Enquiries do make a difference, look at the Piper Alpha one, it has changed a lot of things for the better. I agree some are a waste of time, however this is a case where a good enquiry can be a positive force for change.
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#60 greenockboy
£500,000 is a lot of soap, shame that BBC doesn't do journalism, despite Brians protestations to the contrary.
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One cannot help noticing that the English finance minister and the chairperson of the English parliament's Treasury Select Committee, or whatever you call it, are jumping up and down today in helpless and mystified exasperation because the English government's recapitalization of banks, of which they were so proud, is not producing a result which they expected. Why is this? Is it that the banks are at fault, or is it that the expectations of these labour politicians are at fault?
As informed commentators have pointed out, it is illogical to recapitalize ailing banks with a view to encouraging their recovery from the toxic-debt malaise with which Anglo-American cowboy capitalism has infected global finances while at the same time expecting them instantly - i.e. before that recovery has been fully effected - to return to lending practices indulged in during the year 2007. Either these institutions are to be left in peace to recover by adopting prudent lending practices which will serve their interests or they are to sacrifice their own interests by returning immediately to incautious lending.
As it was considered by the President of France to be realistic to expect banks to adopt cautious lending practices and to maintain them for some time in the prevailing global financial and economic climate, even after the liquidity assistance provided to them by the French state, Mr Sarkozy undertook three weeks ago to establish a French sovereign fund, which began to operate yesterday, while English politicians were beginning to jump up and down in angst and anguish at the prospect of the economic and political disaster confronting them.
The purpose of this fund, which has initially 20 billion euros at its disposal, is to support what are being referred to as strategically important industries. In announcing this, the President stated that he had no intention of presiding over a country sliding into the condition of a glorified tourist resort, adding, perceptively, that a country which neglects its industries risks losing the capacity to support the services on which its people depend. Hence what he called his positive and pragmatic policy of targeted interventionist support.
On the same day in the Scottish Parliament it was noticeable at First Minister's Questions that there is a great SNP/Lib Dem complaint beginning to be brought against the English government that its ill-considered responses to the financial crisis, for which it is not free of responsibility, are resulting in dire economic consequences which are already beginning to be felt in Scotland. The now largely English-controlled English-government-supported lending institutions are starving Scottish business of finance, and there is no sovereign fund to take up the slack.
As a matter of interest, President Sarkozy said at one point in his account of the functions of the new French sovereign fund, that it may be expected to coordinate its actions with other sovereign funds, such as the one established long ago by oil-rich Norway (which has just made a very substantial loan to Iceland) and such as oil-rich Scotland would have established had it chosen independence under the Scottish National Party.
The Scottish electorate is free to choose, of course, to watch Scotland turn into "a glorified tourist resort" and extended nature reserve as its labour force migrates south for employment and elderly retirees migrate north to it to enjoy the de-industrialized scenery and vote against independence. It is certain that the Scottish Government cannot save the country from this fate unless it acquires the normal powers of an independent state within the European Union and exercises them in beneficial ways that the highly skilled and supremely realistic French administration shows to be perfectly possible and desirable.
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55 oldnat: "Salmond.....who puts principle above personal advancement."
Are we talking about the same Salmond?!
You can't be talking about Alex Salmond, the current FM, who is CLEARLY obsessed with gaining a place in history!
LOL!
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33 Master Porter: "Since they are the Government I guess the continuence drop in crime is their achievement because its their responsibility!"
Please enlighten us with the SNP's innovation within the criminal justice system since 2007 that brought about this continued drop.
And by the very same argument, the continued c-diff/MRSA outbreaks in our hospitals are ALSO down to the SNP.
As is the rise in violent crime, the rise in drug use, the non-existent school construction work (no argument possible at all there!), the road congestion.......
As I said, absolute devotion and unquestioning support for the SNP and everything they do, regardless how much they fail and then lie, solely because the support independence.
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Re those lamenting the choice on questions on last night's QT:
The problem lies not with the questions submitted by audience members (many of which are of greater interest), but that the production team decides in advance what the majority of topics will be and then sifts the submitted questions to find which will fit the bill as a starting-point for the topic.
I fail to understand why "Scottish Question Time" has not been revived, and broadcast INSTEAD OF (not as well as) the London-centric QT. As a comparator, last night's edition of "Let's Talk" (BBC Northern Ireland) was a real hoot, and the sight of Nigel Dodds (who is ordinarily seen and depicted as one who could give Gordon Brown a run for our money in the dourness stakes) laughing animatedly brought a smile to my face.
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Re oldnat 55
Your normally openminded and thoughtful posts are let down badly by this one.
I am nearly in ex-pat's camp here.
I don't see how an objective view of the situation can place Alec Salmond on such a pedastal. You are looking through very nationalist tinted spectacles!
I think Ms Sturgeon is a good and effective politician and when Alec's shelf life is up she will do well in leading the SNP.
I think that time may come sooner than people think. Alec may have done well so far but that needs put in the context of an abysmal Labour effort, if Ian Gray shapes up Alec won't look so good.
He also has an unfortunate habit of making the SNP look like a one horse party, something that will wear thin very quickly with any electorate.
Also during this financial crisis he has looked unsure of where to go, unsure of the way forward and how to present the arguments. He has really failed to show as a strong leader that can unite. Something needed in times of crisis. Something a minority government needs to do.
On the other hand if he learns the Glenrothes lessons and moves to a positive agenda on what can be done in Scotland, then he can make a further impact. One thing for sure he has got to evolve the ideas, rhetoric and delivery of the meesage.
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The_Forfarian
They said that they choose the questions by taking all of the questions submitted by the audience and splitting them into groups by subject. Whichever subject has had the most questions submitted is choosen and one question picked as representative.
So it would seem that our fellow Scots are very interested in the BNP and John Sargent.
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#67 frankly_honestophone
Yes, the Labourites and Unionists all jump up and down and scream foul when what they do doesn't work; after all, why aren't we all following the tax and spend parties line?
This is especially true in the case of the banks.
They have clearly never heard the true statement that they can't buck the market.
There is going to be tough times ahead; I hear that Iain Dales friends in the city are now referring to London as Reykjavik-on-Thames
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Re 67
Why must every thread have a rant from someone basically saying " if only we had grabbed independance years ago we would have been oil rich"
We have to live in the real world. We didn't choose independance and polls suggest we still don't want independance.
If you wish to change this then offer a positive ideas on how we can improve as an indepndant state, then people might listen.
We will only vote for change if it will improve our lives. That argument is not made by the nationalist lobby in a convincing way.
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#30 Oldnat - Brilliant - As a former East Lothianite who saw the transition from Home-Robertson (Labour but OK) to Moffat (silent bouffant tory automaton living in the wrong decade), I always presumed the reason she never contributed to any discussions was that she was too busy taking the train to/from Heathrow. Now I discover that she spends her days on the BBC website being rude to people.
Expat - on yer bike. One by-election does not a recovery make. Like the rest of new labour you pretend to listen, you just don't really know how.
The issue here is labour's disasterous image-led top down policy that led to massive PFI building with no funding or infrastructure to support it, run by people with no power, who rapidly lose interest in their jobs. My gran has been in and out of the ERI and it is a total shambles.
Whichever way you look at it, labour is totally stuffed. To say that it isn't is like being an enthusiastic tory in 1992. It's sooner or later, and then right back out to political oblivion. GB and TB have been so terrified of any coherent opposition for so long that they have demolished anyone capable of standing up to them. The labour party in Scotland is a joke, still feeling the outrage of the proles having booted them out. Until that changes, and it won't soon, they are on the decline, however steep or shallow that may be.
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To all you nats whinging about Question Time being 'UK-centric'......have you ever considered that the programme exists to discuss UK matters?
Mmm?
I've never known a sadder bunch of incessant whingers in my entire life.
It's embarrassing to come from the same country as you.
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The Independence issues was conspicous by its absence last night. In one way it shows that the SNP are now regarded as a 'normal' party and 'allowed' to discuss normal issues. Or they're hoping if they ignore it long enough it will somehow go away. Loved it when Dimblebore quoted a stat that applied to England only. Quelle surprise...
I am nothing to do with the SNP which will come as a relief no doubt to their members here. But if I were them I'd declare UDI if they ever get more than 20 seats at Westminster or a majority at holyrood. Who cares about so called legality with the gangsters at Westminster. Do it and let the chips fall where they may...
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northhighlander
Ian who?
Hasn't Jim Murphy taken over from him?
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#72 snowthistle
Using the Blue Peter counting method to determine the winners, I presume.
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# 71 northhighlander - Iain Gray is completely incompetent, as was his predecessor, and her pedecessor. and his predecessor. Labour is suffering a structural disadvantage here, as it chooses to send its third choice team to Holyrood. If anyone ever doubted that - explain to me Lord 'Haw-Haw' Foulkes political re-emergence! Or how politicians as mediocre as Wendy Alexander, Iain Gray or Jack McConnell were ever able to manoeuvre themselves into 'positions of power'.
Salmond has more to fear from his own character ... what people wrongly perceive as his 'smugness' ... than he does from any opposition leader at Holyrood. Again, Goldie's effectiveness is blunted by the fact she is a tory.
# 75 t_mike - good post, the idea forwarded by some on these boards that this is a decisive turning pt against the SNP is ludicrous. Expecially when one considers that Labour is already overdue in terms of the 'throw the scoundrels out' timeframe at Westminster, (11 years of misrule is enough for most). Indeed, there is a strong argument that the longer the inevitable is put-off; the worse it will get for Labour (your analogy of the Tories in 1992). Come 2010 the Labour Party will be begging to be 'put out of its misery' and given a chance to rebuild.
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#76 Dinna worry .... were embarrassed you come from the same country as us !
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#70 The_Forfarian &
#76 Reluctant-Expat
So long as both the union and the four "home" nations exist, why not do both?
The format makes for cheap TV and has been popular from the outset, so keep UK Question Time on Thursdays, but brand it properly and have 4 concurrent national editions on Friday, perhaps replacing the ghastly Ross?
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#76, Reluctant-Expat:
If only Question Time was UK-centric, there would be no cause for complaint.
However, QT is at best Anglocentric, at worst London-centric - cf. the utterly irrelevant dedication of a programme to the London Mayoral candidates!
If it was truly UK-centric, then only those policies which affect ALL of the UK's citizens equally would be discussed - there are precious few matters which satisfy that criterion, since most "UK Government" Departments by definition do not, and have at no time had, jurisdiction over Scotland.
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There's a YouTube video clip on the Orange Party site of Hitler's reaction to the loss of the BNP list.
I find the style strangely appropriate for "Miss Moffat".
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The reason the oil issue and how rich we would have been if independent is precisely because but for these lies we would be independent and we would all be much better off. It's simple.
Stories of Alex's demise are very premature. He actually played a blinder throughout the Financial crisis it just was't reported fairly as per usual.
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Seems I am now subject to the same moderation procedures as everyone else again, I wonder what I did!?
#76 - imagine, people seeking a programme that reflects the politics of the nation they live in, in return for their liscence fee. Truly shocking stuff! They'll be wanting the vote next ... mark my words.
oldnat - I am slowly coming round to your view that expat may be a Labour MP, who else would post such drivel and yet expect it to be taken seriously?
"Does my right honorable friend, the Prime Minister, agree with me that the sky is green, Tony Blair is an excellent peace envoy, everybody wants ID cards, those nasty Americans messed up the economy and ran away, our European neighbours are 'banana republics' and that those members sitting on the benches opposite, smell bad?"
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#76, Reluctant-Expat wrote:
"It's embarrassing to come from the same country as you."
Right back at you.
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As a member of the Vale of Leven C-diff families who featured on the programme. I feel I have to put the record straight as some of the comments regarding our call for a public inquiry are ill informed to say the least.
The remedial measures which are being undertaken to improve protection against C-Diff in our hospitals are undoubtedly to be welcomed, however, the point is that these measures will never be as effective as possible until we get to the root cause of what caused the unacceptble scale of the Vale outbreak in the first place and in our opinion ONLY a public inquiry will get to the truth of the matter. It is only then will we be able to move on.
Please by all means have a political debate with each other, but please also spare our feelings by refraining from turning our tradgedy into an excercise in political point scoring.
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#83 - excellent post.
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52 Brownedov
I know...it'll be just the weather forecast all over again. I can see "not being introduced first" becoming yet another conspiracy for Expat's list;-). Perhaps it just goes to show that you just can't please some people.
Why the surprise from some that the programme didn't really cover Holyrood issues?...errr....that's because Question Time covers the UK and interntional political scene whether its based in London or Lumphanon.
I thought that it was quite good. I even admired Nicola Sturgeon who addressed issues in a reasoned and measured way and didn't resort to the the "gentle full toss" question on "wouldn't all problems in the known world be cured by independence?". Alec Salmond did this a few weeks ago and it was truly cringe-worthy. I even thought that Jim Murphy seemed pretty together (just to get you going).
Above all else it looked like a welcome return to a mainstream politics where the two main parties can be told apart. One side says that people must be protected at all costs from the economic cycle. The other says there isn't a bottomless pit of money. Just like old times!
I look forward to QT's new Glasgow-based era. Though I wonder if David Dimbleby will last the course? By all accounts he was not best pleased and is probably, as we speak, negotiating expat allowances.
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I see Downing Street have categorically denied that they have plans to have an early election.
So June 4 2009 seems a certainty then!
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#85 - no, it was the civil servants working for him, who actually do the hard work, who played a blinder, but remain ignored, unloved, and unacknowledged!
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#81 rabbiehippo
How dare you suggest that that Repugnant e-Prat creature comes from the same country as me?
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#90 Anglophone
Actually you prove our point rather well.
"mainstream politics where the two main parties can be told apart"
By "mainstream", you mean those issues which are the preserve of Westminster - reserved powers plus the government of England. The latter is of local interest to your nation, but are not "UK"
There would be no problem if Question Time restricted its discussions to reserved powers, but most weeks the programme comes from an English city, and includes local English issues that are of limited interest elsewhere.
In Scotland, it is easy to tell the "two main parties" apart, since they aren't clones of each other.
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#90 Anglophone
"I can see "not being introduced first" becoming yet another conspiracy for Expat's list"
No conspiracy, just crass bad manners and totally illogical. Ladies first, then alphabetical order or just alphabetical order would be logical: Phillips, Sturgeon, Hammond, Murphy, Scott or Hammond, Murphy, Phillips, Scott, Sturgeon.
If the emphasis is on decision-makers, as QT's About the Show implies, then the two in government should have been introduced first, followed by the others. Again, common courtesy would suggest ladies first then alphabetical order but alphabetical order would have been valid: Sturgeon, Murphy, Phillips, Hammond, Scott or Murphy, Sturgeon, Hammond, Phillips, Scott.
As it was, the order Murphy, Hammond, Sturgeon, Scott, Phillips in which they were announced made no sense at all.
"I even thought that Jim Murphy seemed pretty together"
With whom? Can't say he strikes me as pretty but blokes are not my glass of tea.
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Salmond didn't need civil servants to play a blinder during the Financial crisis.
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# 88
Why do you feel a public enquiry would make a difference to the reviews that have already been undertaken?
It is now very well documented as to how the c.diff bacteria operates and the defences which can be taken against the bug.
A public enquiry will taken one to two years. Do you really think the public deserve to wait that length of time before any action is taken?
The only benefit I can see from a public enquiry is that people will be named and shamed. In many ways that is right and people responsible for not doing their jobs should be sacked. But I doubt if this will happen as I think, during a public enquiry, the staff who know they were incompetent will leave.
Personally, as someone who has experienced this bug, I'd rather see money being spent on productive measures which will hopefully halt the increase of this bug. It will never be erradicated but it can be much better controlled.
Whilst I sympathise with your loss, emotions must not over rule common sense. I do hope you can move on and not let this matter destroy your own future.
As a group you would be of far more service to the rest of the population ensuring measures are improved quickly.
It is my opinion that your MSP made this a political matter in the first place. She accused the Health Secretary of incompetence initially. Not nice.
I've watched carefully Nicola Sturgeon's handling of this matter and she has been committed, professional and honest. It's my opinion she won't cover-up details. She has nothing to gain by doing so and she knows that.
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#93 Sorry .... im only assuming he/she is Scottish as i dont think we have been informed..... it could be he/she is a Reluctant Expat of England who has been forced out by rabid nasty rants on political blogs.
Listened to Radio Scotland on way to work .... boy, the comments about BBC Scotland being Labour bias are fairly true......Letter to Santa .... want CD player for car...sorry PLEASE can i get a CD player for my car. ;o)}
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Third evening C.diff on Reporting Scotland and there are now calls for Nicola Sturgeon's resignation.
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As the Vale of Leven hospital is in Jackie Baillie's constituency, why wasn't the c.diff matter raised with equal vigour over the past eight years? After all, the problem hasn't just arisen in the past 18 months. I have to agree whole-heartedly with the comment No. 97.
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We do need to find out what went wrong.
I work in a role where I monitor performance of various offices. The problems I come across are usually due to senior managers making decisions without understanding the full implications.
This appears to have happened with basic cleaning in hospital. Save some money by outsourcing it, but then it costs more in the long run.
I wish politicians would for once work together and make things happen. That is what they are paid for. There seems to be this continuous obsession with shooting down an opposite number. I sometimes wonder that the SNP crucified Wendy Alexander (and in my opinion they went way over the top) and now Labour is itching to put one over Nicola. No dount the SNP will retaliate and then Labour will continue the war of attrition.
Meanwhile, the Scottish public wonder what the hell is going on.
Stop it and grow up. Sort out this problem.
Nicola Sturgeon has a major opportunity to have a public enquiry with full transparency which for once might inspire public confidence.
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wendy crucified herself. Stupid and corrupt.
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#102 bluelaw
It is indeed true, I think, that Wendy Alexander crucified herself, as you put it. If I had not witnessed it myself, I would not have believed it. Horses for courses. She was the wrong nag.
As for a public inquiry, anyone who genuinely wanted one for good reason would hardly have sought to embarrass the cabinet secretary into conceding one at his behest by shouting across the parliamentary chamber "What have you got to hide?" Political point scoring on this topic was unquestionably initiated by the leader of the Labour group in the Scottish Parliament.
That said, it seems to me that Ms Sturgeon is highly likely to give mature consideration to the pros and cons of holding a public inquiry when the time is right. Although public inquiries are not unalloyed blessings, expensive and time-consuming as they are in general known to be, I suspect that the relatives of those who have contracted hospital-acquired infections will find that their understandable desire for such an inquiry will prevail. They have my sympathy.
That said, we should not let the Labour Party get away with exploiting this issue, and the relatives, for its own ends.
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Ther can not be a public enquiry until the police have reported and the calls for a public enquiry are pathetic and politically motivated.
All that has happened here is that Nicola Sturgeon has got far too popular because she is pretty good any anything will be used to attack her.
Sorry stuff.
Let's get the figures for c.D during the Labour years.
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I know we are on cdiff topic, but having just read what the Home Secretary has proposed on penalties for wrong information on the proposed ID card scheme, I am deeply, deeply worried about this.
I think I have found something that just might sway my choice of voting next election.
Back on topic, I still feel a public enquiry is warranted AFTER all police investigations. As I stated previously, Nicola Sturgeon could show just how transparent such an enquiry can be.
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For anyone who hasn't seen what Neil_Small is referring to about ID cards, this is the BBC summary.
You can also download the booklet that tells us how wonderful they are going to be via An Englishman's Castle site.
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#105 Neil_Small147
I share your reservations about the ID card scheme that is to be imposed on Scotland. As proposed, it is a threat to civil liberties, not least to the civil liberties of those who do not accept the state as constituted. I personally intend to refuse to have anything to do with it in so far as possible.
As for the capacity of the UK authorities to administer such a scheme effectively, one need only refer to the very recently revealed fact that the loss of UK government computers is said to be averaging one a week. As for the volume of data-loss due to unauthorized and stupidly careless or conceivably criminal memory-stick removal of sensitive information to God-knows-where, a public inquiry should be called for in this domain of administrative ineptitude before anyone is required to surrender personal information in connection with ID cards. However, a public inquiry into UK government ineptitude is hardly likely to be initiated by the UK government. Maybe the Scottish Government should try setting one up.
On the subject of the topic of the thread, I agree that, unsatisfactory though the procedure may be in certain respects, public concern about hospital-acquired infections generally is and indeed should be such that the whole matter deserves to be investigated in depth and, if necessary, at length, after other more pressing proceedings have been completed. This is not something which the Scottish Government seems to me to be resisting. The Labour Party evidently wishes to give that impression in order to make political capital out of a problem which, as even the Daily Telegraph's nat-basher in chief has conceded, "was not invented by the nationalists".
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Reluctant-expat wrote that Alex Salmond won't show his face and must be on another 'jolly'!!
Surely even our FM is entitled to be ill. I would advise this person to start reading the daily papers, watch news on TV, listen to the radio and find out what is going on in Holyrood.
Even our beloved sub-prime minister may yet catch a cold..............
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#106 oldnat
Many thanks for the sneaky link to the PDF, which makes stirring reading.
I am, of course, entirely satisfied with the wondrous safeguards put in place by the Rt. Hon. Jacqui "Novice" Smith, as spelled out on p18: "A newly created post of National Identity Scheme Commissioner will be independent of the Identity and Passport Service and will report at least annually to the Home Secretary, who has to share the report with Parliament and answer MPs’ questions."
How could anyone but a card-carrying member of Al-Queda or the BNP regard these as anything other than gilt-edged additions to British civil liberties?
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Government is about making better decisions for the future to prevent crises, not just the management of current ones.
When I suggested in my #29 that the NHS needed a system of external inspection like the ones for schools and education authorities, I wasn't aware that the Government had already made a start on this.
10 days ago they published Healthcare Associated Infections - Inspection, Assurance and Public Confidence Consultation Paper which proposes exactly this.
As I understand it, the Healthcare Commission in England already has inspection powers, though not as robust as the ones now being proposed for Scotland.
When NHS Quality Improvement Scotland was originally set up in 2003, it had no such powers, but was rather an advisory body.
While the Crerar Review was right to suggest that "external scrutiny [was] becoming a burden", the growing problem of hospital acquired infections has amply demonstrated that Audit Scotland is not the appropriate body to monitor clinical standards, and the addition of inspectorial powers (both random and risk-based) to NHS QIS seems totally appropriate.
Politicians who want to make capital out of problems caused by their own lack of action, are playing a risky game.
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#110 oldnat
Again, thanks for the links. I'm certainly surprised it wasn't mentioned at FMQs, especially as it gives credit to the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Wellbeing for identifying the need for: "a more transparent process of external assurance that will provide reports to the public that the care environment is clean and safe; that processes are in place to detect and tackle Healthcare Associated Infection ( HAI) and related issues; and that the necessary governance, infrastructure, professional practice and leadership arrangements are robust".
Odder still that the BBC articles linked to in the header of Brian's blog entry don't mention or link to it. A public enquiry may help to bring closure to the families, but putting this new body in place is even more important for the living.
PS: Do we have an English teacher here to comment on Brian's use of "public inquiry"? I've always understood it should be "public enquiry", but I see that both the UK and Scottish governments and parliaments seem to use both terms without any obvious nuances in meaning.
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re blelaw
Have you previuosly posted under the name bighulabaloo?
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#111 Brownedov
Like you (and many others) I've always used the term "Public Enquiry".
We were wrong. Throughout the UK, the rules are governed by the "Inquiries Act 2005".
While I was searching for the information I came across this interesting report of an analysis by Professor Kieran Walshe.
"just before the UK elections in May 2005, the Inquiries Act 2005 slipped almost unnoticed onto the statute book, replacing the outdated Tribunals of Inquiry (Evidence) Act of 1921.
This Act gives government ministers unprecedented powers over the initiation, conduct, funding, staffing and direction of public inquiries.
For instance, ministers now set up inquiries by order rather than resolution, ministers appoint the inquiry chair and panel, and can add to or change appointments at any time. They write the inquiry terms of reference and have the power to suspend inquiries, or terminate them early. They also control inquiry funding and publication of inquiry reports.
Overall, these changes seem designed to reduce the independence of future public inquiries, and to provide the government with a host of mechanisms for controlling inquiries at every step, writes the author. This is considerable departure from past practice.
As a result, he believes that inquiries are likely to be more cautious and narrowly focused affairs. Stakeholders are less likely to trust in the impartiality of inquiries, and so it is less likely that inquiries will produce cathartic exposure and closure for people who were involved or affected.
"The most fundamental and important characteristic of public enquiries in the United Kingdom has been their independence," he says.
"It remains to be seen whether this government, by taking so many new legislative powers to control and direct public inquiries, has stripped them of the independence and impartiality that was so central to their purpose."
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#113 oldnat
Thanks for that. Definite shades of Sir Humphrey there. My old OED defines enquire as an alternative form of inquire used esp. in the sense 'to ask a question', which is perhaps precisely what the 2005 act seeks to avoid.
As so often, the whole concept is well expressed in a quote from Yes Minister, in this case from The Middle-Class Rip-Off (Series 3, Episode 7)...
Jim Hacker: "I thought these planning inspectors were supposed to be impartial?"
Bernard Woolley: "Oh really, Minister. So they are, railway trains are impartial too, but if you lay down the lines for them that's the way they go."
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And while we're on the subject of Labour removing transparency ........
On Monday, Darling will announce his colossal borrowing for his fiscal stimulus "well over £110bn per annum" according to Peston.Trident replacement goes on its merry way, with even less opportunity for scrutiny.
This is, of course, nonsense. Those buying Government bonds don't buy them with a neat little label attached stating the purpose of the bond.
The extent of the borrowing would be less if they abandoned insane schemes like ID Cards, Trident, mass e-mail capture etc.
We're borrowing more so that UK leaders can posture that they are important people on the world stage.
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I actually find the present Labour attempt to use this unfortunate and harrowing problem which is certainly not of the SNP's making as a political football totally despicable. Used as I am to the hurly burly of political point scoring and pretty impervious to it I still find this to be really low stuff. As I have said on many occasions I was brought up in a community that had huge respect for the Labour Party and I have endeavoured to retain some of that respect even as I moved, in political terms, into the army of the nationalists.
It is becoming an impossible task
This and the absolutely disgraceful distortions which saved them at Glenrothes must be deeply dispiriting to the handful of decent democrats still hanging on in the Labour Party. The Scottish Labour party is destroying itself from within.
I can think of nothing - not one thing - that would make me want to associate myself again with it in any way.
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#115 oldnat
Thanks for the link - didn't spot it in my skim of the Grauniad earlier today.
"The extent of the borrowing would be less if they abandoned insane schemes like ID Cards, Trident, mass e-mail capture etc."
I fully agree, which makes it all the more inscrutable why real socialists like derekbarker continue to support NuLab, but what I completely fail to understand is that they still have the support of most of the Guardianistas like Michael White and Polly Toynbee who not so many years ago would have railed at all this imperialism and authoritarianism yet still root for them. Can they really believe all the lies and spin or is there something (invisible to the the rest of us) which makes them the leastworst option?
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Brownedov
Mike Smithson at political betting is reporting a new UK poll by ICM showing an 11% Tory lead.
While this deplorable practice of UK wide polling persists, it will tell us nothing about Scottish patterns, and Scots will (quite rightly) consider different issues as critical when voting at Scottish or UK level.
However, it seems to me that Scotland will vote very differently if England is marginal between their two Tory parties, or if their real Tory Party is well ahead.
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#118 oldnat
Yet again, thanks for the link. Teletext also report it, but I can't see the source yet so I think I will call it a night and look tomorrow morning.
You may be right that a healthy lead for Cameron's "officials" may encourage some Scots to vote for Brown's "provos", but if they actually believe in the need for Holyrood to have more power, as apparently they do, I cannot for the life of me understand why.
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#115 oldnat
One can go onto the SNP website and vote against Trident.
The longer Brown is in power civil liberties will be eroded as we are entering a period where civil disturbance is liable to escalate to such a point that emergency legislation will be brought in. ID cards are equivalent to being cataloged as the jews were. The future is looking bleak under Herr broon and co Intermediary Implementation Before Everybody Gets Chipped At Birth
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#119 Brownedov
Actually my theory is the other way round.
If Con and Lab are close, then some will vote Lab to "keep the Tories out".
If the Tories are clearly going to win, then Scottish minds may turn to how best to protect Scotland from them. Then the game is afoot!
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no, I have only posted as bluelaw not bighullabaloo.
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Maybe best NOT to go shopping on Sunday?
VAT to drop to 15% very soon?
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#123 oldnat
It's nice to have optimists on the blog; my eye was caught by the 60,000 to loose their jobs in the same paper. He may have saved the universe but that doesn't help those on the dole here.
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Little Miss Moffat clearly puts herself before any semblance of party unity.
Also fascinating to see that in the "People's Party" it is "unconstitutional" for a constituency party to debate a motion of no confidence in their MP!
"With ELCLP members taking sides ahead of Tuesday's meeting, Gray now faces an uncomfortable choice between Moffat and the party activists who backed his return to Holyrood last year and helped bankroll his recent leadership campaign."
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I meant to post my #125 on Brian's "Less than Wonderful" thread, where it would have been more appropriate.
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#125 oldnat
Disappointed that you didn't refer to Gray as Little Jack Horner"
I came across this British banks rated less sound than Botswana's we can always call Jack Mc if things gets worse for the Uk as we're only 4 places above Malawi!
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#127 cynicalHighlander
Thanks for the link. However, since it says -
"Little Jack Horner was reputed to have been the Steward to Richard Whiting ..... The Steward had an important role", I was probably right not to include him.
"Leader of the Labour Group of MSPs in the Scottish Parliament" isn't very important - as his NEC have demonstrated, by supporting his constituency's MP against him!
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#118 oldnat - PS to my #119
Sadly, the poll was done for the Mirror, and their Tories cling to poll lead has no extra information. ICM are one of the slowest pollsters in putting the details on their own website.
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Remember that Ian Gray is complaining about a Labour disease in Labour hospitals, run by Labour managers, Labour nurses, Labour cleaners and labour unions killing Labour voters.
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130. At 11:15am on 23 Nov 2008, PJG1970 wrote:
Remember that Ian Gray is complaining about a Labour disease in Labour hospitals, run by Labour managers, Labour nurses, Labour cleaners and labour unions killing Labour voters.
--------------------
So nurses are responsible are they?
How do you know who votes for Labour? If you must make a comment at least make a sensible one.
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#125 oldnat
Re Ms Moffat's spat with her comrades, it's a little odd that there's no update either on the previous thread or on the Scotland politics section of this website.
The Herald now carries two stories on it and Scotland On Sunday cover it with their Anger grows as Labour tries to solve row between local MP and suspended party. It even gets a mention on this website's What the Scottish papers say chipping in with "The civil war inside Iain Gray's local party exploded when the area's MP accused the Scottish leader of 'making friends' with 'bullies' who were trying to throw her out of the seat, says the Sunday Herald.".
Could Brian be becoming sensitive about intruding on private grief?
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#132 Brownedov
She appeared on BBC today on the Politics Show - claiming to have been "misquoted" about Gray, and it's all the fault of a bunch of disaffected men who don't like trade unions or women.
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I watched the "excellent" investigation documentary and interviews....
Amazing how all the relatives managed to find out all about C-Diff and become instant experts on hospital hygiene....after it was too late!
Once again, they (and some posters with their anecdotal evidence of shocking hospital hygiene) have shown themselves as incapable of challenging the regimes when it matters.
How anyone can see dirty swabs, contaminated mops, poor-doctor hygiene standards and nurses only donning plastic aprons because a "big-wig" is around is beyond me.
THEY WORK FOR US, not the other way round!
Find a spine, people and use it to get the message through. If you, or a loved one is to be admitted to hospital, ASK about it's infection control; CHECK it is followed. CHALLENGE those who do not obey the rules and REPORT the ones who don't listen.
Only then shall the situation improve. The patients and visitors are the best police-force for the NHS. It's a crime they deem themselves unworthy of fulfilling their promise.
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Tory MSPs silenced on Holyrood tax
"The party’s official explanation for not giving evidence to the commission, which is considering greater powers for the Scottish parliament, is that it does not wish to “politicise” the review. However, it helped to establish it and is represented on it by the Tory peers Lord James Douglas-Hamilton and Lord Jamie Lindsay."
That has to be one of the most disingenuous explanations ever!
A political party doesn't want to bring politics into a political discussion.
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#133 oldnat
I'm sorry not to be able to watch that - only the London edition is available to expats and even that's intermittent.
But at last this website is getting in on the act with Critics object to 'strong women', reporting the fragrant lady's appearance on the show.
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#135 oldnat
What jolly fun. One can only assume that Aunty Annabel hasn't quite managed to house-train young Dave and George after all. Tears before bedtime, methinks.
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She handled the questions very well, but it is worth noting that Gray seems much better at leading a scottish labour party in opposition than Alexander was able to. Gray demonstrated his abilities this time round, and as the leading politicians become accustomed to one-another i'd expect salmond to start struggling in FMQ unlike the ease he currently gets by with.
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J. Arthur MacN----- (I don't think the mods like his self-mocking name) has an article Hell hath no fury like Anne Moffat scorned
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Ian Gray is leading NOTHING! He's taking orders like a good little London stooge. He's laughably ineffectual and an embarrassment. He's been completely sidelined by Murphy and is desperately trying to crawl back some Brownie points by attacking the SNP on C-diff. And he is never impressive at FMqs. Anyone that thinks otherwise doesn't watch the same FMqs I'm watching.
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Perhaps some people should be careful what they wish for.
Any thorough Public Enquiry would have to report that the decrepit condition of Vale Of Leven Hospital with its totally demoralised staff were the direct result of the campaign by Greater Glasgow Health Board, supported by the Labour/LibDem Executive all the time was in power, to run that hospital down until it became non viable and most of it could be transferred to RAH at Paisley.
The only hope of its patient base that it might be restored to serve its huge area which includes pockets of deep deprivation was an SNP Government. But what a total shambles the SNP Government inherited in the Vale of Leven Hospital.
What was Jackie Baillie doing all those years as Vale of Leven was being stitched up?
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
That's the SEVENTH time I've watched the BBC Scottish TV News broadcast virtually the same item over several days..
Perhaps other posters can do their own count.
c.diff
18 deaths at Vale of Leven
Labour calls for public enquiry
Nicola Sturgeon patiently explains there is a police investigation going on which she has initiated, but has never ruled out a public enquiry after this is completed
same relative on calling for public enquiry/ can go on at same time as criminal investigation (nonsense). Why should it be immediate?
Iain Gray calls for immediate public enquiry or Nicola Sturgeon should resign (even more nonsense).
This, basically unchanged, at least seven times, over three days on what purports to be a impartial and responsible broadcaster
No newspaper is even giving this a second glance. They know this is patently Labour inspired utter nonsense.
This is evidence of Labour influence on BBC Scotland and without a doubt a disreputable and partisan attack on Nicola Sturgeon constructed by the BBC.
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#138 - Claiming Gray is handling FMQs better than Wendy, is rather like saying one prefers malaria to the black death.
Gray has no charisma, no personality, and no particular point to make as yet. In short - yes, I agree; he is a marginal improvement on the previous office holder.
I remember when the unionist commentators were claiming that Nicol Stephen was the only opposition leader who could effectively compete with Salmond! And what happened to him? He went face to face with Salmond, lost spectacularly, lost his party's confidence (at last), and was replaced by Tavish. Who as a nominee for 'debater of the year' (why Brian?), which presumably makes him the next great hope!
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#144 pattymkirkwood
Gray reminds me of Hugh MacDiarmid's comment about Alec Douglas-Home in the 1964 Kinross & West Perthshire General Election.
The poet described Home as "the apotheosis of mediocrity".
He could also be described as being similar to that other Iain and "quiet man" - IDS.
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143: I, too, have noticed the number of times the C.diff item has been broadcast on BBC Scotland. I only wish they would investigate with the same relentless vigour the matter of the Glasgow East former M.P's expenses of £500,000. Thank goodness it wasn't a member of the SNP. Can you imagine the furore?
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#146 Nonnaflorence
Or the lamentable lack of investigation into Moffat's submission of claims for 1,817GBP in rail fares for 42 trips between Heathrow and Central London - an average of 43GBP. Such a figure is of note as the journey is a mere 15 miles and the highest priced ticket actually costs 18GBP - as I quoted above.
Noticeable that deanthetory seemed to admire her - what is it with Tories and "strong" women?
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# 134 and # 141
Good posts.
I watched Michelle Stewart on the Politics Show and she did nothing for the families cause. Her hatred of Nicola Sturgeon was palpable and Glen Campbell's questioning far too condescending. When asked why she thought a public enquiry was essential she said "Perhaps we'll find out that the Scottish government knew about the outbreak before they say they did."
Such a shame Ms Stewart has allowed herself to be used as a labour party stooge in this way. The families group for the Vale of Leven deserve better.
The group were in a super position to campaign for hygiene improvements in all hospitals but one of their spokespersons has now brought her personal political opinions into the public domain.
Sad.
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#145 - Sounds like MacDiarmid got it just about right on that occasion.
However, IDS is the comparison I think we will hear in future years on the rare occasions his name is mentioned - a necessary stage in the wilderness that the Labour Party had to go through (namely: figuring out more of the same wont work).
From my perspective: the longer it takes them to work it out the better.
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We need Scots steel tempered wi' Irish fire more than ever in the next few years...
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#148 quietscotsmac
What a patronising post.
To dismiss Ms Stewart as a "Labour Stooge" - nevermind that these people feel they have a right to be angry with the Health Secretary, who has promised action but delivered very little, who delayed following England's lead on cleaning, because a Scottish approach was needed (which turned out was doing the same as England) and who seems to be defending Greater Glasgow and Clyde Health rather than giving the bereaved families answer.
But no, that can't be the reason for her behaviour, she is obviously a labour party activist, who's been brief by party HQ, indeed I'm sure you can probably see Jackie Baillie pulling her strings in the background.
Though somehow I think had she been critical of Andy Kerr you wouldn't be so ashamed of her for bringing politics into it.
I imagine, no matter who was in charge Labour/SNP she would have lay the blame at the Health Minister's feet - after all isn't that where the buck stops?
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#150 bluelaw
Exactly what does that mean?
Are you suggesting people start drinking whiskey?
Or are you suggesting, quite ridiculously, that "nationalists" in Scotland follow the likes of the so-called Irish Freedom fighters who those in the real world call murderers of innocent men, women and children.
You tread a fine line and your extremist posting does little to garner sentiment for nationalism.
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I see the SNP are STILL taking credit for other people's efforts!:
Justice Secretary Kenny MacAskill said that, although the Scottish Government is committed to strengthening community sentences, it is building new jails.
Addiewell in West Lothian opens next month, while plans are in hand for new jails at Peterhead, in Aberdeenshire, and Bishopbriggs, in East Dunbartonshire.
So, the only prison currently under construction was started in 2006, under Labour.
The other two projects were also initiated by Labour but both are currently delayed by the SNP.
The SNP have not started a single project to build new prisons.
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#153 and just how many new prisons does Scotland actually need?
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And another example of the SNP takling credit for other people's work:
Salmond has briefly resurfaced to take credit for the Clackmannanshire Bridge.....started by Labour.
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#155 your point is as petty as you are
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156. Just highlighting the continuing lies and duplicity of the SNP.
However, you go right ahead and continue to defend everything they do and say, just because they want independence from nasty old England too.
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Reluctant-Expat:
#155.
Your quick to point out that the SNP are taking credit for projects started by Labour (certainly not paid for by Labour!), but why are you not also pointing out that Labour are not taking responsibility for British Banks taking extreme risks? Why are you not pointing out that Labour are failing to recognise that they have put Britain in one of the worst possible situations ever? Hundreds of billions of pounds in debts with our numbers showing Britain to be as much as 1.5 trillion pounds in debt, right before an 'official' recession?
Labour are far worse for refusing to take responsibility for their time in Government and still insist on blaming the Tories!
Hey, did you not hear 12 of your buddies were arrested in England?
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#155
Reykjavik on Thames
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#154.
How many prisons does Scotland need?
Well, if Kenny McAskill has his way, probably none, since his view is as few people as possible should be in prison.
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After 19 months now, I'm curious as to how many schools, colleges, hospitals, police/fire/ambulance stations, roads, bridges etc. have actually been initiated by the SNP and are being, or confirmed as about to be, built.
No schemes that are "on hold"/"being considered"/"planned"......actual, confirmed and committed construction projects initiated solely by the SNP.
(I hope I have been quite clear on this!)
Can any nationalists help?
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Reluctant-Expat:
#161.
Yes, I see because its important for the party in power to build as many hospitals, schools, roads, bridges , colleges and fire/police/ambulance stations as possible?
It's that attitude that has guaranteed that the future generations will be paying off the debts you seem so willing to create now!
How do you propose that we pay for all these projects. In debt by hundreds of billions, but yet you want MORE.
Scotland itself receives one block grant annually that has our main priorities such as maintaining what we have now rather then creating more!
You must be Gordon Brown, I have never heard someone willing to spend so much without explaining fully how it will all be paid for.
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162. Another tedious non-answer from the nationalists.
Try again, this time answering the actual question.
Or are you saying the SNP have not started a single construction/infrastructure project?
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Not one word in any newspaper today about the ludicrous Labour attack on the Health Secretary over the c.diff outbreak. This attack is indeed a BBC Scotland production in co-operation with 145 West Regent Street.
Does Labour take responsibility for the rundown state of Vale of Leven Hospital which was moving towards shut down under their care?
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Only an ignoramus would suggest McDiarmid's words were an encouragement to the murderous excesses of the Irish Republican movement.
I'm a Prod, a Gers fan so as you can imagine have no time for the IRA and if I so choose can be quite withering about the issue. But what we can learn from our Irish cousins is to never believe that we are somehow not good enough to be an independent country. It's that spirit that we need to see us through these difficult times. And ally that with our natural Scottish strengths as it were and we'll have a helluva great country on our hands in the long run.
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Reluctant-Expat:
#163.
Another non-answer? That's quite rich coming from you. You are famous here for ignoring questions.
"Or are you saying the SNP have not started a single construction/infrastructure project?"
Yes because I said that... C'mon Expat, you have zero credibility and yet sink low enough to start creating lies and cinspiracies about what other posters are suggesting.
By the way where did you get the conclusion that I was saying the SNP have not started a single construction/infrastructure project? When I was speaking about the failure of the Labour Party? Labour have allowed Britain to be in debt by up to 1.5 trillion pounds (depending on the source you use), while Labour has failed to put in place regulation to ensure that banks do not gamble OUR money, yet blame either the Americans or on a global occurance for what has happened so far.
And to top it off. Gordon Brown has the greatest plan to spend our way out of recession... How is spending more then your limit logical? It tends to be, if you can't afford it, don't buy it. But as usual Labour are prepared to ensure that future generations will be paying for their great plans...
Vote Labour, pay later.
Vote Conservatives, pay now.
My, the Tories are looking fantastic at the moment. It does not take a geanius to figure out that accepting defeat may be the better option rather then pretending to be something we are not and pay for it later.
You might not be around in several years or so, but I will be and I do not want to pay off Labours rubbish.
Thank god we are in the European Union. At least with the freedom of movement we can jump the sinking ship.
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Reluctant Expat
Consensus seems to be building that you must be an underemployed Labour Wesminster MP. As Labour politicking is now unerringly aimed at those among us who have laid aside their thinking caps ( or never had one to start with) which makes up the bulk of their remaining support and who are susceptible to swallowing a load of puerile codswollop your posts fit the bill exactly.
I await the inevitable suggestion from you that an independent Scotland will not get Coronation Street on the telly.
Come on down, Brian Donahoe.
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164. The SNP were VERY quick to claim all the credit for a continuing drop in crime figures earlier this year (although we are yet to ascertain quite what the SNP's contribution was)...
...yet somehow, despite 19 months in charge, the SNP still reject that they are to blame for continuing c-diff outbreaks!
Wrong. The SNP have had more than long enough to implement their policies, yet there has been no improvement whatsoever.
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165. Change the record, silly child.
The debate has NEVER, EVER been about whether Scotland is rich enough/good enough to be independent.
It has always been about whether life in Scotland would improve if independent.
The SNP have yet to show even the slightest hint of a shred of a whiff of evidence to suggest it would.
Endless, empty nationalist rhetoric is not even a start.
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166. Tell you what Porter, as you are predictably not going to answer the question, toddle off back to your.....er, 'sickbed'.
Anyone else? I'll repeat the question:
After 19 months now, I'm curious as to how many schools, colleges, hospitals, police/fire/ambulance stations, roads, bridges etc. have actually been initiated by the SNP and are being, or confirmed as about to be, built.
No schemes that are "on hold"/"being considered"/"planned"......actual, confirmed and committed construction projects initiated solely by the SNP.
167. Sneckedagain, I am STILL waiting for your long list of social issues where Scotland has distinctly different attitudes to the rest of the UK.
You said I was lying when I said we don't....so prove me wrong.
Especially on issues like nuclear power, Trident and the Iraq War.
Be quick now as you've had over a week to do this.
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Re #161 and too many other rants to count
Firstly, go do your own research instead of releasing the latest bee from you bonnet and expect everyone else to run around gathering info for you to try to shoot down and then ignore when it doesn't say what you want.
Future prisons are being planned for Peterhead amongst others, but the core of the SNP policy is to re-activate the capacity run down under previous administrations so that an increased number of prisoners can be accomodated in existing prisons without having to pay out for human rights violations (as under previous administrations) or using PFI for mass-build projects that saddle us with enormous debt
If you have a specific comment to make, then do, but don't expect others to do your research for you.
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Expat thinks it is up to the SNP to prove that life in Scotland would improve if independant.
How about life has been gradually getting worse under years of Labour corruption, so how could it be much worse under independance.
I guess we will never know unless we try?
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#153 Reluctant-Expat
So Labour started Addiewell; why aren't they opening it?
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Reluctant-Expat:
#169.
You are utterly pathetic. You have constantly used the GERS reports to prove that Scotland can not afford to be independent. Do you expect the Pro-Independence supporters to forget that so quickly already? Just proves further that you are a Labour man through and through. I've never seen someone attempt to spin their whole stance almost overnight.
I see you are now copying David Camerons attitude, Scotland can manage independently but apart of the Union we can do much better. Well Expat, an independent Scotland may not manage to improve the qaulity of life of the people who reside here. However an independent Scotland certainly cannot do worse then what we have received from the Union for the past 300 years. That's a guarantee at least.
Can you humour me for a moment please? Could you acknowledge that Labour MAY have put Britain in a difficult situation and also acknowledge that Scotland MAY have avoided this difficult situation all together if she was an independent country long ago depending on whether or not we progressed as far as the rest of the West of course?
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171. I can't find ANY reports of SNP infrastructure projects, which is why I asked.
You have clearly swallowed the SNP spin on this. It's a shame I need to highlight your considerable gullibility: Even evidence of refurbishments to increase capacity in existing builds is hard to find. For example, in prisons, the only refurbishment schemes seem to be about kitchens or admin buildings, not cell-blocks.
So....you were saying?
172. Bongo_1: Expat thinks it is up to the SNP to prove that life in Scotland would improve if independant.
Er.....I don't think it's just me who thinks that!
By the way, it is spelt 'independent'.
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173. SNP stealing all the credit again?
As they did with the crime figures, new bridges, new prisons, new hospitals, new schools and a certain Commonwealth Games......when ALL the work was done by the previous bunch?
174. LOL. Clearly, you totally failed to grasp my very simple argument:
There is no evidence to suggest that Scotland would do better as an independent country.
All the SNP has mustered is a considerable portfolio of contradictory claims (such as an oil fund but also increased public spending) and lots of centuries-old anti-UK/anti-England complaints (Lewis Chessmen, MQOS's remains, Berwick-upon-Tweed etc.).
Such nationalistic rhetoric may work on the ignorant, the immature and the gullible, but thankfully the vast majority of Scots do not fall into such categories.
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Re #175
So if you cannot find it on the internet, it doesn't exist - is that your view?
The refurbishment is of not only admin facilities, get your head out of the internet and go around Scotland and look at the building work ACTUALLY TAKING PLACE at this moment at existing prisons. Instead of taking the 'just get private money to build new' approach so beloved of London Labour, it is fiscally sensible to look to maximise the utilisation of exisitng assets and only buy new as a last resort - just as a business would.
I'm actually not an SNP supporter, and feel no need to defend them, but unlike you I am not so scared of losing the dubious support of England that I am rabidly anti-Scottish.
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#175 Reluctant-Expat
You mean indepndent as in the Independent Labour Party which supported MPs with socialist views. It is now extinct, presumably because there are no MPs with socialist views left in the House?
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#176 Reluctant-Expat
No, what I am getting at is why are the previous bunch not the present bunch. If they were so good, why are they not looking after us now?
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Jeez, it's like pulling teeth!
177. And how much of that building work was initiated by the SNP and not Labour?!
I've already listed several examples where the SNP have taken credit for Labour's projects....but where are they taking credit for THEIR OWN PROJECTS?!
Where is the list of schemes initiated by the SNP?!
How many different ways do I have to put it?!
LOL!
(I am beginning to suspect the SNP have initiated absolutely nothing)
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It would appear that the moderators of this forum have decided that it should now resemble 'The Scotsman' in content.
20 separate posts from the poster calling himself 'Reluctant-Expat'.
This type of Unionist poster now appears on every internet forum 'flooding' the forum with increasingly provocative comment. The practice originated on The Scotsman with a poster calling himself 'AM2'.
The overwhelming number of online comments are pro-independence and this is one way to introduce 'balance'.
You may decide not to publish this comment, however I would suggest that the forum will deteriorate if this flooding is allowed to continue.
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Reluctant-Expat:
#176.
"There is no evidence to suggest that Scotland would do better as an independent country."
True. However some simple sums could easily point out that Scotland would save far more money from many of the UK's, in particular Labour's great ideas.
It's a start. I feel better off already.
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Re #180
Your right it is like pulling teeth - if you want to know how much was initiated under labour, GO FIND OUT YOURSELF !!!
As it wasn't labour's policy to refurbish, I am going to say none, unless you can prove otherwise !!!
Spend now, pay later was (is) the labour policy
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#181 greenockboy
I rather agree with you. The gentleman in question seems very keen to ask questions but is not so keen to answer any addressed to him. All I want to know is why he is not looking after us now. Depending on his answer I can get a feeling for what it will cost us to get him back to keeping us safe.
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181. Instead of hypocritical sanctimony, how about YOU providing answers to just some of my oft-repeated, and still unanswered, questions?
1. Where is the evidence to repeated nationalist claims that Scotland subsidises London?
2. Where are examples of social issues where Scots have distinctly different views to the rest of the UK, as repeatedly claimed by nationalists but never substantiated?
3. Where is the list of capital investment projects actually initiated by the SNP, as opposed to claimed by them?
(Now, will he answer any or all of these questions, or will he exit swiftly stage-left back to the Scotsman?)
182. A long overdue admission by Master Porter:
"There is no evidence to suggest that Scotland would do better as an independent country."
True.
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183. I want to know how much was initiated under the SNP, NOT LABOUR!
(Shall we all just face facts and agree the SNP have built precisely zilch, zip and nada in the past 18 months?)
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#186 Reluctant-Expat
Temper, temper. Why isn't Labour in a position to continue doing all this good work for us?
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#186
Meanwhile Nulabour have been get on with the job of digging a bigger financial hole that these little islands will of ever seen. Some epitaph!
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#153 ... #186 Reluctant-Expat
Before discussing future capital spending, it would be closer both to this topic and the previous thread to consider the huge debt burden of PFI. I note that Ms Moffat's UNISON chums have been banging on about this for many years with their 2001 UNISON Scotland Evidence to The Scottish Parliament's Finance Committee Inquiry and their 2002 briefing on the Private Finance Initiative: PFI - the gravy train rolls on.
As you're a NuLab insider, how about giving us a sneak preview of the debt servicing cost that the Scottish Government has inherited from "Duff" Gordon's PFI wheeze?
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Reluctant-Expat:
#185.
Expat, it's hardly an admission considering I believe the vast majority of people would agree that there is not sufficient evidence to clearly show Scotland would do BETTER as an independent country.
Unless you believe that the UK-Government would provide honest and accurate financial results to help the Nationalists prove that Scotland is in strong position, unlike we are led to believe?
It may be the same, but certainly not worse which was the main point I made later which you chose to ignore.
How could an independent Scotland be worse? How could Scotland generate debts worth over 1.5 trillion? How could Scotland participate in an illegal war and also continue to maintain nuclear weapons? Scots tend to live in the real world. We are not a world power and the money for trident could be used improving Glasgow... Glasgow suffers from many issues. How'd you feel when you see the shiney new submarines when you have so little? And why nuclear power? We are trying to become one hudnred percent energy independent from foreign powers. Where will we get the nuclear fuel from? For how long will that last? Who will start begging next? Why when we should be focusing on energy that other Governments can't control!
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PS to my #189
#153 ... #186 Reluctant-Expat
If I noticed it, I'd have added: more relevant to the new thread too.
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#181 Expat has been flooding this forum with rude and provocative postings for a while now, the problem with this tactic is that in the long term it becomes increasingly ineffectual in provoking reaction as people become accustomed to it, expect it, and gain a mocking amusement from it.
In short Expat's behaviour has become a caricature of themself. While everyone from time to time loses the plot and has a niggle at the opposition, in Expat's case this form of behaviour defines their personality.
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Nonsense expat. The Unionist battlecry always revolves around Scotland and Scots being too poor or too 'pretendy' to go it alone.
The GERS show Scotland sending a surplus of revenue over spending ergo we subsidise England ergo we subsidise London and all its hidden subsidies dressed up as essential infrastructure.
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193. Complete tosh.
Go ahead and quote one person who is anti-independence and who has said Scotland is too poor or "too pretendy" (whatever that means) to go it alone.
And also quote GERS where it talks about a surplus of revenue. Salmond only managed to claim a 'surplus' by ignoring BILLIONS in expenditure. See for yourself.
I notice that no other nationalist has yet attempted to provide ANY answers to the questions repeated in #185.
(Surprise surprise, Greenockboy DID run away instead of answering the questions.)
I have given nationalists plenty of chances to back up a single one of their many pro-independence claims.....and they have all failed to do so.
The pro-independence argument in a nutshell.
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#194 Reluctant-Expat
"Complete tosh"
Describes most of your posts pretty well, along with the garbage Capt. Darling is spouting to the the House of Cards as I write.
"ignoring BILLIONS in expenditure"
Yup, like the debt servicing costs of PFI. How about an answer to my #189?
Could Ms Moffat be planning to vote against PFI from now on in deference to the UNISON chums who saved her bacon over re-selection?
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#194. Reluctant-Expat
I notice that no other unionist has yet attempted to provide ANY answer to the questions repeated in #173, 179 and 183.
There I have given you three 3 chances to explain and you have given no answer.
The pro-union argument in a nutshell.
Just in case you have forgotten, the question is - why are Labour not in a position to look after us now? - .
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Since the crunch happened there's been a huge swathe of comment in numerous publications by numerous commentators which states that in effect Scotland would be too poor to withstand the financial downturn if independent and needed its southern neighbour to bail it out.
Scotland has sent a surplus for decades and this has been deliberately covered up in numerous ways. The amount that we don't receive back is therefore a surplus.
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195. No idea what the annual/total PFI debt is.
The total debt for all PFI/PPP schemes throughout the entire UK is 110bn though (~8% of GDP).
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....quick bit of maths in m'head and the UK's entire 110bn PFI/PPP debt means;
a) 11bn is roughly attributable to Scotland's schemes (which are 200-ish schools, 12 waste projects, 9 hospitals, 3 major road schemes and 2 prisons)
b) and equals annual payments of 250-300m a year (or ~1%) from Holyrood's annual budget.
Hardly a devastating condemnation of the state of the union, is it.
How long would we have had to wait for the SFT to provide all these?
So far, it's 19 months with not a single brick laid!
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196. No idea what point you are trying to make.
197. More substance-free waffle. How about providing some of that 'proof'?
Ah, just noticed this:
"...and this has been deliberately covered up in numerous ways."
Begone, silly little conspiracist. LOL!
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#198 Reluctant-Expat
Thanks for a number - at least that's more than the Westmidden government gives us.
So if UNISON's 18% figure is right - and I'm not aware it's been challenged - the annual servicing cost must be about GBP 20bn, then given that take-up was high under the last Scottish administration, it must now represent about 10% of Scotland's "pocket money" under the current block grant system.
Maybe that helps to explain why councils like Fife are loth to get into even more hock.
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#199 Reluctant-Expat
"11bn is roughly attributable to Scotland's schemes (which are 200-ish schools, 12 waste projects, 9 hospitals, 3 major road schemes and 2 prisons) .... equals annual payments of 250-300m a year"
But that's assuming its paid back via gilts whereas the actual payment method via usage charges is an order of magnitude higher.
Do you have any data to dispute UNISON's 18%?
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I notice the SFT page of the SG site is void of any useful information.
Where are the stats and figures for Scotland's PFI/PPP kept?
Where is the SNP's economic argument against PFI/PPP?
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201. I stand horrendously corrected.
It's here...
http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Topics/Government/Finance/18232/13368
...and it shows that Scotlands total PFI debt is 5.6bn, half what I guessed.
Not quite sure how you got to annual costs of 10% of the budget though!
3bn a year??!
Do you want to try again?!
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#203 Reluctant-Expat
"Where are the stats and figures for Scotland's PFI/PPP kept?"
McConnell's private office, perhaps, or in a cupboard in No.11 Downing Street or the Scotland Office?
In what possible way would it be in the interest of the current Scottish Government to suppress these if they have them?
"Where is the SNP's economic argument against PFI/PPP?"
Do they need one of their own when Ms Moffat's and Labour's own UNISON made the case so eloquently?
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#198 Reluctant-Expat
How come you are privy to figures the UK Gov.t hasn't released? As the debt is not counted till the scheme is up and running, I presume Addiewell is not in there yet? And the Icelandic finance for the Aberdeen schools? But we could work with your figure.
#200
Dearie, dearie me. There was I thinking that if I used your words with the subject / object changed to reflect a different viewpoint, it might have some resonance with you. Instead we get - No idea what point you are trying to make. -; what impact do you think your words are having on others if you cannot get the point of them yourself?
The unanswered question still remains - why are Labour not looking after us now? -.
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Brownedov, just what freakish calculation did you perform with '18%' and '11bn' to come up with '20bn split into 3bn repayments'? You do know PFI contracts usually last 20-25 years, don't you?
20bn paid back over 20-25 years isn't '3bn', is it?
206. What are you drivelling on about?
"why are Labour not looking after us now?"
Is the answer you're so desperately looking for, "Because they aren't in government now"?
And your superbly sublime point from that response would be.....?
Tool.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#205, #206, sorry lads it looks like Expat has knocked off for the night and is now down the House of Commons bar after a hard day's Haw Hawing drowning his/her sorrows with the rest of the New Labour luvvies. Try again tomorrow after 9 am, Expat works office hours only.
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#209 My apologies I was wrong Expat is doing some overtime tonight, obviously Expat isn't meeting their targets.
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#204 Reluctant-Expat
Well spotted, although it doesn't claim to be "Scotlands total PFI debt" but "Total number of PPP Projects and their Capital Value figures" arguably for Scotland or perhaps just the ones the current Scottish Government has been told about. It doesn't claim to be more than a research paper.
It's also not entirely clear whether PPP covers all PFI projects or simply a specific type.
In any event, if it is "only" the GBP 5.6bn of PPP projects, then using UNISON's 18%, that makes the servicing cost a little over GBP 1bn pa, something in excess of 3% of Holyrood's "pocket money".
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Handclapping, you bizarre little boy,
any chance you could provide some answers to #185?
Ah, what's the point? You nationalists have absolutely no argument or case to offer. If you did, you wouldn't have to make it all up, would you.
Countless, increasingly bizarre, claims but cannot provide a shred of proof when challenged.
Roll on the next election when we can get anyone else in, send this freakish bunch of hapless non-achievers back to the wilderness whence they came and get on with living in the 21st century.
Roll on 2011!
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Well! in all fairness I think the lb/dem camp
Is still in the Clegg cloud on the 20Bn cuts
on public services.
So why is there very little positive reaction to the cuts in VAT, surely Salmond would welcome a lift up in business terms?
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#207 Reluctant-Expat
If they are not in government now, does this mean they gave up voluntarily to let someone else have a go?
Rejection is so hard to get over; are you sure you don't feel diminished by it?
Or is it the impotence that worries you?
Tools can be useful, propagandists - not -.
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206. See 204.
Any complaints, write to cluelesspeople @snp.org.
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#207 Reluctant-Expat
"Brownedov, just what freakish calculation did you perform with '18%' and '11bn' to come up with '20bn split into 3bn repayments'?"
Just using your guesstimate of GBP 110bn for the UK and UNISON's 18% return to get an annual servicing cost of about GBP 20bn for the UK.
You guessed 10% for Scotland in your #199 (ie GBP 2bn) whereas I thought it might be higher in my #201 (posted when your #199 was still with the mods) and guessed 15% (ie GBP 3bn).
Just goes to show how little information is made available under this NuLab wheeze. Of course, when the "official" Tories get in at Westmidden, they'll publish details but whether they'll be believable or not is another matter altogether.
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#207 Reluctant-Expat
"Tool."
I've asked before when you've finished a post with this suggestion but you never replied. Do, please, tell us which one to use - it's never comfortable trying to make sense of dodgy data, but perhaps you have found a better one than the rest of us.
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#210 InMyKip
I originally started the theory that Expat was a Labour MP. However, s/he recently posted that s/he has "a buddy" at Holyrood.
If the "buddy" is a cleaner, for example, then the idea may well be true. However, if the "buddy" is a Labour MSP, then my theory is exploded.
Labour MPs loathe Labour MSPs and vice versa.
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Could I suggest that Reluctant Expat is simply ignored.
I have no problem in debating in a respectful manner with persons putting a sensible point of view but silly insults are not worth responding to.
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#217 Brownedov
re#207 Reluctant-Expat
"Tool."
From Expat's insider buddy at Holyrood -
"A mop".
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#218 oldnat
Naughty but nice.
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#213 derekbarker
I think it's because VAT doesn't affect business that much. They pay when they buy stuff but then get it all back when they sell and only pay the difference to the Gov.t.
The people who will benefit are those blessed bankers again. They cant charge us VAT so effecively they pay VAT on everything they buy. Darling has just given them an extra 2 1/2% to add to their profits.
Labour, socialists they are not.
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222
I think you will find that VAT and a reduction on VAT is a positive move for business, yes VAT registered business will reclaim some VAT as PAID however the reduction is a real terms reduction on business rate of VAT, YES.
Good, glad we agree, now, the bigger question is? when will the energy firms reduce their costs, giving that oil prices have falling dramatically.
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#223 derekbarker
I don't know but the one to watch is Scottish and Southern; they've been pretty good at being among the last to raise and the first to drop prices.
It's crazy that the prices swing around like this, some of my old ladies were in despair about how they would keep warm this winter. The extra Christmas bonus will help.
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#224
Good, the more we drive on these issues the clearer the path is for more action.
I think the bonus is helpful, however I also think that in the year 2008 the fact that we still means-test is unhelpful.
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