Into battle on tax
More on the Pre-Budget Report.
Understandably, it is turning into a substantial inter-party row - with sundry different elements.
Good thing too. Enforced consensus on the economy was becoming wearing. The scent of humbug, over-powering.
We've had the Westminster version. George Osborne had to be good - and, within limits, he was.
This was classic dog-whistle politics: tell (or rather yell) what your partisan side wants to hear.
The limits are less about the future choice confronting the voters than they are about what the Tories would have done to prevent the economic situation arising in the first place.
Would they, for example, have been more stringent in regulating the banks?
Then there's Vince Cable's alternative LibDem prospectus: building upon his party's predilection for cutting income tax rates.
(Doesn't quite square with Local Income Tax - but that's for another day.)
In Scotland, there's a toothsome battle, as ever, between Labour and the SNP.
Firstly, whisky. The industry is aggrieved that what was presented as a revenue neutral move is, apparently, nothing of the sort as far as they are affected.
See our story on this site. But their grievance is that the chancellor has cut VAT by x amount.
But he has, simultaneously, increased duty by x+y - as far as whisky is concerned because of the higher duty gearing faced by Scotland's national drink.
Further, the VAT cut is time-limited. It will expire at the end of 2009.
Do you imagine that, in January 2010, the Chancellor will then remove the additional duty which is intended to offset that VAT cut?
Yes, I thought that might be your answer.
More generally, public spending. John Swinney has been relatively emollient in addressing the budget, certainly by contrast with Mr Osborne.
Mr Swinney has backed the VAT cut - and the measures to assist business.
However, he has complained that longer-term efficiency savings in Whitehall could drive down spending in Scotland.
That's because the Barnett formula imposes cuts as well as comparable increases.
Expect more, much more, of that tomorrow when the Finance Secretary spells out his formal reaction in a statement to MSPs.
Also expect more, much more, of Labour's response.
Today, for example, Labour MP Anne McGuire said Mr Swinney was "in denial", ignoring the beneficial impact of the early phase tax cuts for Scotland - and the recapitalisation made available to Scotland's banks.
I'm 
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This is unfair!
Did the Whisky Industry not face a similar rise in duty in the past recent years?
How can we, during a possible recession allow our Government to risk damaging one of our main exports?
Labour are out of touch, especially with Scotland.
I hope the Scottish Parliament unites to share their disaproval about the added rise in duty on one of Scotland's main exports.
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Brian
Why encourage dog-whistle politics in Scotland. The Scots voted for a balanced Parliament at Holyrood and we've got to make the best of it. Money is a reserved matter; why not let Westminster get on with their childish games over the future for working families all over the UK and encourage our lot to try and work out what our Parliament can do to help people.
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Labour, Labour, Labour, what will we do with you?
Too busy robbing the blind to feed the lazy to note the uselessness of said activity.
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Alistair Darling - the new Hammer of the Scotch!
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How will the impact of the current global economic climate affect the self-government referendum? Will voters be put off voting for greater self-government in these times of economic challenge, in which it is maintained by some that small independent states are not viable and should not exist? Should the electors in the face of these challenges be swayed by the prospect of gaining rights to an anticipated energy windfall or should they say no thank you. It may seem like what is known as a "no-brainer" these days, but some will not agree, of course. You know the type.
Well, voters are going to the polls today. You were unaware of this? You mean the awesomely magnificent BBC has kept you in ignorance of this fact? Why would they do that? Will Greenlanders notice, however, that you have failed to notice that today is a big day for them in terms of the constitutional status of their territory in relation to Denmark?
At present Greenland, the small population of which resource-rich territory has many problems, enjoys a degree of autonomy but is being offered more. If the electorate accepts this offer of greater self-government, a further consultation is to take place at some future point on the question of independence. What a refreshing attitude from the state upon which Greenland is at present constitutionally dependent. So different from England.
If you are interested in the detail and on rather pertinent comparisons that can be made on a number of matters affecting that territory and Scotland, you will find an article on this story on the Web site of the International Herald Tribune among others. Even the French media are covering it, and the Gulf Times of Qatar, but it seems to have passed BT by. Not that I would dream of reading anything into that.
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Official - Pre-Budget Report is a DUD.
That has been overall response from voters.
No one is buying this Labour spin on VAT when they see that petrol, booze and fags are going up in price.
Everyone is SCARED of future tax increases and for their jobs.
Labour has ruined the economy, once more.
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#5 frankly_francophone
Thanks for the steer on Greenland Here's the link for others - International Herald Tribune
Interesting to apply the bog-standard Unionist comments to their case.
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Well, Glenrothes is over and thaks to the English press we now have some scrutiny of the economy under Brown - and what a mess it looks !!
In an interview on Sunday, Brown stated:
"Everything out there on the table, the country sees it fairly and squarely, and I believe people will say action now is better than no action and more problems later."
However, when pressed for details he refused to talk about specific proposals under consideration …”
Brown is clueless, his “no more Boom and Bust” remarks now look ridiculous as the policies and direction he took as chancellor are compounding the effects of the global crisis. He stood back and watched as many were forced to take on unsustainable levels of debt due in part to a manipulated housing market. Incredibly, his answer to this UK debt problem is …. even more debt.
Brown is effectively saying that the way to get out of a crisis created in part through his record period of borrowing, is to borrow more !!.
Experts have also warned that Scotland faces its own economic nightmare, predicting the worst recession since the early 1980s.”
Those of us who experienced the 80’s will be all too aware of the desolation visited upon whole swathes of Scotland. Many Scots were forced to leave their homes in order to seek employment, those who remained found themselves caught in a cycle of low paid short term contracts (if they were lucky) that persist to this day - or the dole queue and a lifetime on benefits.
We are about to see history repeat itself with this next generation of Scots, an appalling prospect and one that demonstrates the utter futility of voting for any Westminster based party.
Brown can barely conceal his glee at this turn of events, months ago he was ridiculed as a ditherer who habitually hid away when faced with bad domestic news. The global crisis arrived and that has allowed the spotlight to be deflected from his miserable domestic record.
Brown is currently benefitting from a carefully crafted image of global saviour, the UK Prime Minister, we are told, is at the forefront of the decision making that will save civilisation from this financial onslaught. The truth however is more sobering as recent statements from the IMF and the European Central Bank make clear.
Last Monday, the deputy managing director of the International Monetary Fund (IMF), John Lipsky, said: “Fiscal action may not be advisable in countries with greater vulnerabilities, or those where debt sustainability is a major concern. Thus, those best able to finance new fiscal efforts and those with clearly sustainable debt positions should take the lead.”
In other words, Britain is specifically not being asked to take a lead, however much it flatters the prime minister’s vanity to pretend the opposite.
A fortnight ago, Jean-Claude Trichet, president of the European Central Bank (ECB), observed: “You have, unfortunately, countries that have already no room for manoeuvring. In those particular cases fiscal activism, instead of having a positive impact on the economy, could harm confidence …”. Of these unfortunate countries, the UK is the worst positioned.
Polls currently suggest that the Tories are holding onto a two digit lead (11%), this is contrary to the 3% lead recently headlined by the Scottish press. As soon as the electorate twig that they have been watching a conjuror’s illusion these last few weeks then the polls will return to their August numbers which gave the Tories a lead in the 20’s. When this happens Brown’s “John Seargant” moment will end – his feet of clay will be exposed.
An independent Scotland is now the only alternative to a continuation of these cycles.
Our young deserve better than this and with natural resources that are the envy of other countries we can provide them with better.
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I don't mind what level my tax is at providing it gets put to good use, e.g. education, health and transport in line with Scottish public opinion.
I have complete aversion to my taxes being used to keep Trident on the Clyde, fund dirty wars in the Middle East and ID Cards out of touch with Scottish public opinion.
Choice is clear between SNP and Regional Scottish Labour.
Vote SNP to build up Scotland's people and infrastructure.
Vote regional Scottish Labour to bring mayhem and destruction to other countries and host WMD on the Clyde.
Funny how WMD appears to have drifted from our vocabulary and replaced by sub-prime. Fancy that!
A McG
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#9 Alasdair_McGray
I'm old enough to remember when Labour Party supporters campaigned against WMD, imperial wars and abuse of human rights.
These are sad days, when they carry on voting for a party label that has abandoned their principles. The only remnant of the old Labour Party is their determination to centralise power.
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Seems they need to tax the Scottish economy as a whole more - after all, it is in better shape than the UK one overall!
How does this square with Broon's lies of 'too wee', 'too poor' and 'too stupid'?
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Remember we are borrowing the money to fight these wars!
MoD: Cost Of Afghan War Up 50%
"In the current financial year the war will cost over GBP2.3bn - an increase of more than 50%, up from GBP1.5bn in 2007-2008.
In addition, GBP5.7bn has been spent this year on equipment, including mine-protected armoured vehicles."
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Anne Mcquire and Murphy must have been plugged into the Nu Labour programming machine after the bumbling Darling budget. Their grasp of maths. seems about as good as his. Where they get the figures of how much we all stand to gain from this fiddling at the edges of a dying economy is anybody's guess. It would have been a whole lot better if the country hadn't been dragged into the hole that Brown's false accounting created. I fear all Darling and his fat controller are doing is digging a bigger hole. Yet Murphy and Mcquire think we should all be grateful for the pittance ( on a personal level ) handed out yesterday in preparation for a June election after another cosmetic giveaway in April; with no need to mention again that it all has to be paid for, since the tax increases are already in the pipeline and can be extended as required.
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While I think Darling has made an absolute disaster of his "recovery plan", I cannot see how an independent Scotland can somehow wave a magic wand and sort everything out overnight.
We need a stable economy for starters, with the ability to have a solid export market.
I think the truth is that we are now tied into the UK debt and simply cannot afford to get out.
9. At 5:32pm on 25 Nov 2008, Alasdair_McGray
With regards to WMD on the Clyde, take them away and you have a significant number of people unemployed, plus an effect on the local economy.
I have no love of nuclear weapons but the UK hasn't exactly been chucking them everywhere, nor can anyone predict how the world will be in 10, 20 or 50 years.
I'd like to see the Scottish Government concentrating on building up the Scottish economy first - then put forward proposals for change.
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I see the bedroom politicians are out in force this evening. People, People - ranting at Brian's blogs has the same impact as barking at the moon, but what the hell:
1. The Vodka, Rum and Gin chemical factories in other parts of the UK stand to lose more to the duty increase than the whiskey industry (who'll be benefiting nicely from the recent fall in the pound increasing the value of their exports). Personally, I don't drink spirits, so couldn't give a stuff.
2. Messers Porter, Oldnat, Minuend and BrianSH all hate Labour. If you blogged on the migration habits of Canada Geese, they'd find a way to slag off the government.
Ho Hum.
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Labour still stick to spin.
Vat up to 18.5% in 2010-11
Not exactly surprising, but since it was in the PBR, why did Darling make no mention of it in his speech?
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#14 Neil_Small147
"nor can anyone predict how the world will be in 10, 20 or 50 years."
Absolutely correct.
Now since climate change might drive the Gulf Stream southwards, and freeze our climate, I suggest we guard against the consequences of this possibility by borrowing billions of pounds to build a huge plastic dome covering the whole UK.
After all no one can predict how the world will be in 10, 20 or 50 years.
In fact, since they may have found a way to resuscitate the dead in 50 years, I think I'll max out my credit card and buy into one of these cryogenic freezing schemes.
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Crash Course
Borrowing more to dig yourself out of hole is futile as is having WMD to justify jobs.
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Neil_Small147:
#14.
"While I think Darling has made an absolute disaster of his "recovery plan", I cannot see how an independent Scotland can somehow wave a magic wand and sort everything out overnight."
I don't believe anybody mentioned an independent Scotland. I also don't believe anybody mentioned that an independent Scotland can somehow wave a magic wand and sort everything out overnight.
"I think the truth is that we are now tied into the UK debt and simply cannot afford to get out."
This is interesting. Your first paragraph pointed out that Scotland can't wave a magic wand that could sort out our problems overnight. Here, you acknowledge that Britain has generated so much debt that a portion that would be given to an independent Scotland (you never mentioned how we will share this debt, it would be interesting to know how you would allocate the debt between Scotland and England), may be to much for us.
However since you acknowledge that Britain has generated an incredible amount of debt, would the best course of action not to be to cut our losses? If Scotland were independent tomorro, would we not solve one major problem and begin solving our own problems?
"With regards to WMD on the Clyde, take them away and you have a significant number of people unemployed, plus an effect on the local economy."
Are you certain of that? The people who work with trident and nuclear weapons are some of the greatest minds in the entire United Kingdom. How hard could it be to use their mind for other purposes rather then weapons? You should provide some evidence because I do not believe that these people are unemployable unless they are working on nuclear weapons...
"I have no love of nuclear weapons but the UK hasn't exactly been chucking them everywhere, nor can anyone predict how the world will be in 10, 20 or 50 years."
Ah yes, twenty years down the line, please explain how trident keeps me alive if there happens to be a nuclear war? Truth is. A smart person would ensure their enemy would struggle to retaliate from your first wave of attack. Chances are that the UK's well known trident submarines would be a major target whether or not a country planned an assault. Besides the real threat today are terrorists... Explain how trident protects us from people who happen to believe that from dying for their cause grants them something better in the afterlife?
"I'd like to see the Scottish Government concentrating on building up the Scottish economy first - then put forward proposals for change."
Neil!! You over stepped the authority of the Scottish Government. The Scottish Government has little authority over issues that concern our economy. Especailly when financially everything is handled by the UK, which then has an impact on the Scottish economy...
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14
There area handful of people - a few hundred actuallyemployed with the nuclear facility on the Clyde - and most of them are not locally recruited. The vast majority of people employed there are working in a conventional base. The STUC did a study recently on the employment implications of the nuclear base and reported unequivocally that there were absolutely no economic benefits to the Scottish economy from this base and in fact they agreed absolutely with two other recent academic studies which pointed out that the money wasted on this abomination is completely lost, yet could support up to 8000 other jobs of a constructive nature if the nuclear base was closed.
However the argument that any form of enterprise is justified if it brings employment could be used to justify concentration camps and brothels and cuts no ice with me.
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Douglas Fraser on his blog continues to demonstrate his willingness to swallow any Government story.
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#15 freakowski
I don't know about the others, but I don't "hate" Labour (I was once a member). However, there is little in the centralist dogma of the UK Labour Party that I like.
If you want "hate" do have a look at Expat's rants.
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I don't care if Freakowski drinks whisky (without an "e")or not. Its the employment implications we're concerned about not the 1p on a nip.
Perhaps he doesn't care.
Everywhere makes gin and vodka (lots made in Scotland for instance) but Scotch Whisky is only made in Scotland and sells more around the world than French Brandy.
For one hundred years at least it was UK's biggest export and actually is a very profitable production instead of the London invented money syndrome that has carried the whole economy down.
The Government has been soaking it for huge tax for generations.
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I see there has already been reference to our...ahem..."Independent nuclear detterent" that America controls.
I believe the figures mentioned to replace Trident with son of Trident could top 72 Billion pounds. I'm wondering if we could scrap son of trident and save 72 billion pounds and maybe...just maybe...use it to repay our debt. Now we see what can be done with all of this money it now makes it more absurd to even think of replacing this monstrosity
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Economic times such as these call for good leaders! What makes a good leader in politics these days do you think?
I don't believe there are many people in Scotland that don't accept that Gordon Brown is extremely intelligent, he clearly is. However, I don’t think any one person can have all the essential qualities we require of a leader.
What he does lack is charisma and likeability. Tony Blair had these qualities and behind him was an intelligent Chancellor. Unfortunately for Gordon Brown he is not surrounded by anyone - North or South of the Border - to counter his lack of charm.
Take Lindsay Roy for example. He seems a nice enough fellow but he certainly doesn't have Charisma oozing out of every pores. Come to think of it he wasn't really sure if he was standing for election as an MSP, MP or a Councillor. I don't think he even wrote his own victory speech. Not his fault though, I got the distinct feeling Labour needed this seat so badly they pushed him into it as a friendly, local, 'well-kent' face.
In the Glenrothes by-election Labour used dirty tricks, campaigning on local issues like cuts on Services by the SNP run Council. What they didn't tell you was that the Labour Westminster Government controls all UK Council budgets and has made large cut backs across all of the UK. The SNP led Council had to make cuts somewhere to balance the books.
So essentially Labour were removing the funding and capitalising by pointing the finger of blame elsewhere. The SNP however failed to counter this argument successfully.
As Lindsay Roy is now an MP (not an MSP), he will also have no mandate to change anything he promised as they are local issues for the Scottish Parliament. That is unless he demands that Westminster increases Glenrothes' Council Budget, which I severely doubt.
I also thought it very clever to time the by-election in the aftermath of the US elections, to limit the damage should defeat come Brown's way and I think to play down media coverage that might be advantageous to the SNP, and what a coincidence that we noted a record 1.5% drop in interest rates on the same day. A cynic would say that was engineered?
Essentially what happened in my opinion was that Labour spin, fear tactics and a nice juicy dangling carrot won the day, which is a shame for Glenrothes and Scotland as a whole. If you want change you need to air your voice and the people of Glenrothes clearly stated that they are happy the way things are, despite being the worst placed European country with dealing with recession. Maybe they truly believed that Gordon Brown ‘our local lad’ was the man to get us out of the mess that he put us into.
What next for the SNP though? Not counting your chickens would be a good start; however I do believe that it is very rare in politics to get a team combination that works. The SNP have that in Alex Salmond and (more importantly) Nicola Sturgeon.
I have always been a big fan of Alex Salmond but he does occasionally get things wrong, or goes too far. He is the attention getter and the SNP's Charisma machine. I can't really imagine Jack McConnell playing the Rev. I.M. Jolly.
I do think however that Nicola Sturgeon is becoming an excellent politician and unlike most goes about her business is a very professional manner. Handling questions with thought and more often than not, with answers. Hats off to her.
Has the SNP bandwagon broken down or stalled. I doubt it, but they should remain diligent as their main threat is not from Labour but from the Tories.
Why????
Well if David Cameron continues to impress south of the border, Scotland might just vote Labour in a vain attempt to keep them out, however that might not make the slightest difference to the overall result.
Oh dear, I just had a horrible thought, we could have a Tory Government in Westminster with Scotland full of elected Labour MP's whilst having the SNP in Government at Holyrood. What a mess, the Labour MP’s would not be in Government (so of no real use) and the SNP Scottish Government - as always - would have their hands tied behind their back.
Maybe we should just be independent after all???
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I'm not getting into arguments over nukes. Everyone has their own point of view. However, if I remember rightly the STUC are anti-nuclear anyway, so their survey needs taken with care. I never trust trade unions anyway when it comes to the economy, after all they have helped some industries get clobbered in the past.
I think we are basically screwed with Darling's wonderful rescue plan, and the fact he was considering raising VAT to 18.5% - which is political suicide - sums it up.
Independence might sound like a wonderful opportunity, but does anyone really think that it is an option in the short-term future? There would be considerable expense in doing so.
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#7 oldnat
Would you believe it? There is actually a rather lively debate going on in the French media on the subject of today's Greenland referendum, which the autonomists appear likely to win. Yet in the UK there is virtually complete silence, as far as I am aware. The French, of course, will readily debate anything under the sun, even the midnight sun.
I have taken the liberty of translating, rapidly, the following post from a francophone resident of Nuuk, who is busy debating with opponents of Greenland independence on the Le Figaro Web site. It may help to give a little flavour of what is going on. Some of this may seem strangely familiar:
"There is no resentment; the Inuits here are faced with the disappearance of their language, their culture and the plundering of their natural resources (everyone will have profited from them except the Greenland population).
"They are not rejecting relations with other cultures at all but simply wish to preserve their language and traditions. I don't think one should blame them for that. Quite the reverse. They hope that the 'kaalallisut' (Greenlanders) may improve their status in Kalaallit Nunaat (the Inuit name for Greenland). At present everything happens in both the Greenlandic and Danish languages; absolutely everything is repeated (television news reports are transmitted once with subtitles in one language and again in subtitles in the other one; 2 radio news bulletins every hour in both languages, and it is the same pattern for every programme), all of which is immensely expensive and administratively cumbersome.
"What Greenlanders want is recognition as a people and not to be treated as dependants. They want to play a more active role in the future of their country. I think we should encourage them and wish them good luck. The problems which they will have to face are numerous, but they know that and are prepared to do what is necessary to overcome them.
"I went out walking in the streets of Nuuk at 9 o'clock this morning. People were going to vote in large numbers, and that has continued all day.
"I have the impression that today is an historic turning point for this country, and I am glad to be here.
"Celebrations have been organized just about everywhere in Greenland. Although this is very rare, all the political parties (except for one) have united to campaign together (I can't imagine the French left-wing and right-wing parties uniting to campaign on anything). The party which has not called for a yes vote today has refrained from doing is in part because of the "exploitation of resources" issue."
"I remind you that Greenland is a country. The fact that it has a population of only 56,000 does not detract from that. This country has a language, a culture and a vision of the world which is its own. Self-determination of peoples is a fundamental right, to which Greenlanders, like any other people, are entitled. Only the future will tell whether they will prevail. They are perfectly well aware that they are taking a risk, but they are prepared to reduce their quality of life for a time in order to be independent and to work for the future of their country. Resources are an essential element in this process. They are aware that, as there are only 56,000 of them, they will need very considerable economic power in international relations."
If this account is to be relied on, expect Greenland to move forward towards independence when the votes have been counted. The global economic climate does not seem to be concerning that country very much. If you want something sufficiently, the prospect of a little hardship on the way to it does not seem to matter very much. If a population of 56,000 people love their country enough to take it back, surely the 5 million or so people of Scotland have something to learn from this.
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No. 15
As far as I know,there are no whiskey manufacturers in Scotland...Only whisky
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right so we were supposed to be grateful I didn't realise, much tugging of the forelock ,getting down on our knees ,we know our place, thank you thank you, oh great ones
the crumbs of comfort you felt you had to handout yesterday are sooo helpful at this time
thank you for taking time out of your busy schedule to remind us all ms McGuire -
i hope kirk understands satire.
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I have lost the will to live waiting on the mods moderating. Not much of a service if it takes two hours to moderate a handfull of posts. Wars have been won and lost in less time. I get the impression that the credit crunch will be a distant memory by the time they get to the last one.
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#9 regarding what issues you would not like to see your tax spent on
As an English taxpayer, I would like to sever the links that mean that an unfair proportion of my tax goes on subsidising the Scots. It is amusing to note that after the Scottish banks nearly went to the wall and have had to be bailed out by those south of the border, the usual baying for independence from those north of it has suddenly diminished.
I agree with you on one point though - please vote SNP and get this dead weight off England's back at a time when we can't carry any more charity cases.
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As the polls closed in the Greeenland referendum on extending home rule to allow it to control, among other things, its own subsea resources, which are believed to be rich in oil and gas reserves, initial indications from polling stations in the east of the country are that as many as 80 per cent of those voting may have voted in favour of greater autonomy.
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With the moderation queue now at 3 hours, there's no point in trying to converse now, but the new Douglas Fraser indicates that there's more than one U-turn in the pipeline, which should make for some interesting posts later this morning, and perhaps some real interest in what's said by Capt. Darling in today's emergency debate in the House of Cards.
After all the spinning over the weekend, you'd have thought someone in the Treasury would have proof-read the documents printed for Westmidden, or perhaps its just panic as usual.
It was a rotten night on Swiss TV for those not interested in Italian or French football, but Radio 4's File on 4 was particularly interesting, with some real-world stuff on the credit crunch. If you didn't listen, I strongly recommend 'Why my bank tried to evict me', which has a real-world story about how effective the extra repo help is. The story there is about a third of the programme and I strongly recommend listening to the whole of it on the Listen Again or Podcast links on the page I link to.
Goodnight all.
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I am quite incensed at Alistair Darling and Gordon Brown’s antics of giving the banks Billions of our money without any guarantees, and leaving the poor workers and businesses at the mercy of the same greedy banks that caused the economic mess that we are in.
Gordon Brown was so keen for Britain to follow American financial systems, and lost sight of his own responsibilities to control the Financial Services Agency, and that is the reason that Britain is caught up in this economic crisis.
They both set up the merger of HBOS and the TSB so that they could undermine Scotland’s National infrastructure, and have prevented any viable alternative solution to HBOS’s predicament, causing major job losses in the future. What way is that to run a Country.
Now they have increased tax on national insurance, petrol, whisky, alcohol, and cigarettes, and reduced VAT by a miserly 2.5%.
This budget is a bit of a farce, and won’t really work. Too little input and too late.
If they wanted to improve things then they could increase the level of income before people pay income tax, and charge the really big earners a much bigger tax take.
Did you notice that the 45% tax rate for the big earners won’t come into force until after the next General Election, and even then it will only bring in £670 Million Pounds. That will be a drop in the ocean towards paying for the National debt.
Who is kidding who ?. The poor pay the tax rises now and the rich pay for the tax rises later, if, and maybe, and when.
Very Labour !.
Last time I looked America was in debt to China for 2 Trillion Dollars, and the rest of the world for 1 Trillion Dollars.
Do we want to be owned by China, or whoever else will lend us the money ?.
Labour wants us to borrow 3 Trillion POUNDS !!!.
Very Scary !!!.
The only reason anyone would lend Gordon Brown’s lot the money, is because we have oil as collateral in Scotland’s North Sea.
Scotland comes to England’s rescue once again, just like the last time.
Independence for Scotland is the only answer, and our only way out of this mess.
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Independence was not mentioned above, merely the ridiculous arguments traditionally deployed against the idea. (At least previous to Neil's post),
"I think the truth is that we are now tied into the UK debt and simply cannot afford to get out."
Nothing but a variant on 'too poor'! I merely wanted to point out the hypocrisy of the likes of Brown and Darling on what independent nations can do, and what is ok for the UK - as an independent state, a few would claim 'nation' - can do. You have to admire the twisted logic that a country, like Scotland, was previously 'too poor' to go it alone, yet now the UK is too heavily indebted for us to leave!
That is a creative defence! Presumably we can look forward to the more 'intellectually challenged' members of the Labour group as Holyrood trotting it out on a regular basis?
"We, the unionist politicians, have now made you too poor to leave … so make the best of it!"
What is the betting on Lord F being the first?
I (and other, sad, political anorak-types) can get it framed and put up on the wall beside,
“The SNP are on a very dangerous tack at the moment. What they are doing is trying to build up a situation in Scotland where the services are manifestly better than south of the Border in a number of areas.”
Classic. In case anyone is wondering on my source for this quote: it is from that MSPs’ very own website. It also features several pictures of him, in his happier days - as an underling of a oligarchical-tyrant busily setting about destroying the support, team and even the 'meaning' of what was once considered a proud Scottish institution (no, I mean Hearts, not Labour)!
http://www.yourlothiansmsp.com/home/blog
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Why has no mention been made of the incease in transport costs following this budget. Companies can claim back the VAT on fuel but not fuel duty. This is effectively an increase of 2.5% on transport costs.
Our companies fuel costs for distribution is £40,000 per year so our fuel bill goes up by £1000.
That must be true of every company in the UK and will especially hit the Highlands.
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Tiring of simply robbing savers and the prudent, the government has simply desided to rob everyone.
Surely the first thing they could do is cut the wages of MPs, MSPs and Councilors! After all, Performance Related Pay and whatnot!
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Thanks for the link to Greenland Frankly!
How very exciting for them, and so few in number too!
I will follow the story with interest.
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The results of the Greenland home-rule referendum, as given this morning by Greenland National Television (KNR TV), are as follows:
Yes: 75.54 per cent
No: 23.57per cent.
The voter turn-out appears to have been high, at 71.96 per cent.
This result apparently means, among other things, that Greenland will now exercise control over the apparently oil-rich sub-sea resources of its territorial waters and receive revenue from them as well as having some say over foreign affairs, although it is not yet an independent state, and that a further referendum, on independence, will be held in due course.
The BBC now has an item on this tucked away on its world news page, incidentally.
So Greenland is now on a path towards independence despite the adverse global economic climate, of which it is apparently not afraid. There is a lesson in there for someone, and I think it may be you.
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#35 pattymkirkwood
When I mentioned about being tied into UK debt, I wasn't saying that Scotland would be too poor. What concerns me is what the cost of setting up independence would be. We hear plenty of good arguments about controlling our own economy etc, but hardly anything at all about what costs and disruption involved in separation. That's why I feel that if we are going to go independent, it must be a carefully planned and thought out process before anything is done.
Re Greenland, how do you go about getting citizenship? :p
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35. Why do nationalists still spout this silliness?
Not one anti-independence voice claims Scotland is "too poor" to be independent.
(I have repeatedly asked for any nationalist to quote someone saying so............surprise, surprise, no-one has done so.)
We are ALL claiming life would not be better if we were independent and we have yet to be proven even slightly wrong.
If the independence argument is so strong, why is so much of it just made up?
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Greenland actually is 'resource-rich', so the comparison with Scotland is a bit off.
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After 48 hours the PBR can be revealed as one BIG LABOUR CON.
Reports by the IFS and the OECD, and the leaking of Treasury documents, show that we are being deliberately misled by Gordon Brown on;
1. VAT
2. Duty
3. Income Tax
4. National Insurance
5. Borrowing
6. National Debt
7. Growth
At a time of global crisis Labour has resorted to deceit over their plans for the UK economy.
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39. Will Greenland be a member of Salmond's next arc of prosperity; 'Arc III - We're serious this time!'?
Where is Salmond, anyway? Not even the faintest whisper after the PBR.
All the SNP could muster was that whimpering attempt at scare-mongering by the hapless Swinney.
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#23 Where do you think the money for our schools, roads and hospitals comes from? Some of it has always come from raising duty on alcohol.
My main beef though is the way that you consistently add up gains and losses of any change, ignore any gains for Scotland and present the losses as part of a grand conspiracy against us poor wee folk - ie your concern about jobs masks a deeper message about a devious attack on a Scottish icon.
There are a lot more jobs at stake (my own included) if the economy tanks.
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#43 minued
Labour has plans for the economy?
Hohoho, good one!
Labour has plans?
Apart from feathering their own pensions nests (at everyone elses expense) I doubt it!
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42. It's a seriously resource-rich and very large island with a population of just 55,000, almost all of whom are Inuits not Europeans.
They are also one of Denmark's last remaining major colonies with almost no political, social or cultural links.
I'm still looking for any similarity, link or connection to us.....
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You're being silly again, RE
For the last twenty years the people of Scotland have had manipulated accounts thrust in front of them to show that Scotland has a huge deficit, is too poor to exist independently and relies on handouts from the kind English.
Laying aside the fact that the per capita Scottish deficit even on these figures is always lower than the per capita UK figure it takes a considerable suspension of critical faculties to believe that the UK is hanging grimly onto Scotland to throw money at it.
That , however, is what silly people in Scotland believe as they hang onto mummy's skirts and England.
By a delicious irony the people of England have been recently exposed to this nonsense and the silly ones there now want rid of Scotland. (good stuff!)
The lie has rebounded on the liars.
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#35 I am a Devolutionist not a "Unionist".
To most people, a Unionist is a Northern Irish politician representing a mainly conservative and protestant base.
Personally, I'm neither Irish, Protestant, nor Conservative. So to call your opponents such is disingenuous and pointless.
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http://www.indefence.is/Home
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42
Anaxim
Scotland is the most "resource rich" part of Northern Europe which is why the UK is hanging grimly on to it (in particular now that he main UK industry of inventing money and buying and selling bundles of debt has collapsed).
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#47 Reluctant-Expat
You are Lobby Ludd - er, sorry, Stephen Timms - and I claim my five pounds.
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#44 Reluctant-to-stop-complaining
Too little Salmond,
Too much Salmond!
Such a quandary!
#47
A nation seeking increased autonomy versus a nation seeking increased autonomy.
Check.
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What is really Scary is the way the press and media have spun for and supported New Labour. Always bending in their favourridiculing Lib Dem questions, looking askance at SNP worries, as recently as Glenrothes still trumpeting New Labour's Financial prowess in the election lead in.
Where were the Media when we needed them, where all our Financial Editors and pundits.; they were all Blowing the Labour Trumpet. They did us no favours because the country was going to the dogs.
Th media need to do an about turn and look critically at everything from Ieaq to HBos and do the job they are paid for
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#42 Anaxim
Not at all. Scotland is well known to be resource-rich. To deny that it is resource-rich is foolish and perverse. You anglo-unionists will be saying that the earth is flat next, and that the Scots will fall off the edge if they take their country back.
If 56,000 Greenlanders, while still not independent, have the foresight to take control over unproven oil and gas reserves within their sub-sea territorial limits, 5 million Scots may surely reasonably consider taking control over the considerable proven and further substantial potential oil and gas reserves within their sub-sea territorial waters, with or without full independence.
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50. Is your name Graeme Gardner?
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48. "....it takes a considerable suspension of critical faculties to believe that the UK is hanging grimly onto Scotland to throw money at it."
I thought the main reason Scotland is still in the UK is because there has never, ever, ever been a majority in favour of independence.
Not even close, in fact.
Support is actually dropping.
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I notice the Young Scots for Independence site hasn't managed a single comment since last year. Oh dear!
Are there any indicators, anywhere, that independence is inevitable and the 2010 referendum will result in a 'Yes' to breaking away from the UK?
You know, I just can't find a single shred of a hint of a suggestion of anything at all.
How can that be?
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Personally, I'd rather see politicians from all sides working together to do what they can for the whole of the UK in this crisis. I'm so bored with all this petty, pathetic sniping and fighting.
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I'm bored of all this unionist v nationalist tittle tattle.
SNP... give us the chance to have our say on whether or not we want Independence. NOW.
Put up or shut up!
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#41
The most resource rich part of Northern Europe? What about Scandinavia?
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57
How do you know?
Just another unsubstantiated assertion.
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#49 freakowski
"To most people, a Unionist is a Northern Irish politician representing a mainly conservative and protestant base."
If that's true, it just shows how awful our education system is. It was Jo Chamberlain who created modern unionism by splitting the Liberal Party over home rule, and it's that virus which today pervades their "official" Tory successors as well as the NuLab "provo" Tories.
Bliar & Brown accepted partial devolution not because they in any way wanted it but because it was inevitable and they thought they could set it up in such a way as to retain a share of power forever.
The real division is between unionists, represented in Holyrood by the two wings of the Tory party, and home rulers represented by all the others.
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#57 Reluctant-Expat
When were these opportunities to vote on the question that produced no majorities?
Or are you making things up again?
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#55
I do deny it. I suppose that makes me a stupid pervert. Some oil, some water, a dollop of renewables. That's not resource-rich. Resource-rich countries are places like Russia, Brazil, South Africa, Australia or Canada.
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#26 Neil_Small147
The argument is not really about nukes, wars etc (except for the moral angle, which I agree can wait till another day).
However, these represent a posturing by the UK Government to pretend to a "big boy".
When a country is rich, there can be an argument for expenditure on such matters, but the UK economy has been decimated and is borrowing billions.
At such a time, it is simply foolish to borrow money to buy Trident, fight wars, and install expensive control mechanisms on the people.
The UK needs to accept that it is too wee to play with the big boys, and stop pretending that it can afford to.
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61. "The most resource rich part of Northern Europe? What about Scandinavia?
What about Iceland?
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#49 - In the USA, the term "Asian" is used to describe those from the Far East, i.e. China, Thialand, etc. Are we Brits being disengenious when we use the term to describe peoples from India and Pakistan? Of course not. Just because the term "Unionist" means one thing in one part of the world doesn't stop the term meaning something else in another.
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63. The devolution settlement was created on large part by the efforts of the Scottish Constitutional Convention, which was constituted of Churches, Trades Unions, NGOs and all political parties with the exception of the Conservatives (who didn't want any devolution at the time) and the SNP.
It was voted on by the Scottish people in a referendum and given a 74% to 25% majority by those 60% of us who voted.
It was the Donald Dewar, and not Gordon Brown or Tony Blair who wrote the Scotland act, he, and many others, was a passionate believer in home rule.
That's what we've got now.
Let's make it work, not break it down.
Ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Constitutional_Convention
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65. Renewable energy is another of the nationalist unrealistic pipe-dreams.
They are claiming we will be filthy stinking rich by exploiting our renewable energy resources.
What they always reject is the response that our potential markets, which have to be close enough to make electricity transmission worthwhile, are all capable of being self-sufficient by developing their own renewable resources.
England, just by building the Severn Barrage (let alone the other proposed schemes on the Wash and the Thames Estuary), would no longer need to import electricity from anyone, let alone a Scotland festooned with wind turbines and hydro-schemed valleys.
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66. The 5th largest economy in the world, one of the G7/G8, second biggest economy in Europe (and recently forecast to be the biggest in 12-15 years), one of the permanent members of the UN Security Council and one of the world's strongest and advanced military's (one of only three in the world with a global/blue-water reach) even without Trident.
You're right. The UK is a political, economic and military minnow. (cue nationalist screams of "Imperialist!")
And as for this: "....and install expensive control mechanisms on the people."
Well, that's just silly.
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68 It's a small world, and Northern Ireland isn't the US.
We share a lot in common with them, including an over-lapping political system as part of (like it or not) the UK. SNP MPs sit on the same benches as Ulster Unionist and Democratic Unionist MPs. So, as I said before, to call someone a Unionist for defending devolution is pejorative, disingenuous and simply not true.
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#49 freakowski
The vast majority of people posting here could be described as "Devolutionists" since few would want to return to the pre-2000 set up.
Many are described as "Nationalists" since they want more powers for Scotland. Some actively want Independence, others would settle for something less than that, but if Westminster is stubborn, then we're prepared to vote for independence as better than the status quo.
You are presumably a "UK Unionist", because whether or not you wish more power for the Scottish Parliament, you would always stop short of ending the UK Union.
I (and others) would also describe ourselves as "European Unionists", because we think that political union is important.
In this debate there are no easy labels.
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#71 Surely you aren't counting the fact that FTSE is back where it was in 1997; Or mabye building Aircraft carriers is what has caused that?
5th Largest Economy in the world or Rejykavik-on-Thames? You decide!
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#71 Reluctant-Expat
I agree with you. ID cards and capturing all emails is very silly - but your UK Goverment seems to be thirled to silliness.
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#70 Reluctant-Expat
Two problems with your Severn Barage apart from its intermittent operation are
1 what do the Welsh say about it?
2 who do you borrow the money from?
The Thames scheme would be better; supply closer to demand, build the new airport on top of it.
The Wash scheme makes too many heroic assumptions about the hydrogeology of the Fens; the whole area could end up as salt marsh. The RSPB would be delighted but we'd have to import even more food from abroad.
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#67
reykjavik on thames
"To be solvent, the face value of the government’s net financial obligations has to be no larger than the present discounted value of current and future primary government surpluses (government surpluses excluding net interest and other investment income). The government argues that its net debt position is strong, with a net debt to annual GDP ratio still just below forty percent. That statistic is a prime example of lies, damned lies and government statistics."
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75. I have three ID cards from three EU countries. What is your opinion of the governments of Netherlands, Belgium and Switzerland? Are they oppressive, repressive and/or fascist states?
And you are again being very silly with "...capturing all emails...". Very silly indeed.
Try to think that through. How would that work?
You continue to be one of the more extreme conspiracy theorists.
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nor can anyone predict how the world will be in 10, 20 or 50 years.
If Labour are in power we'll be in deeper debt
Get out of Iraq and scrap the WMD take control ok our own purse strings and manage our own business.
Thanks to the posters who gave us the Greenland link.
I wish our press were so professional and transparent
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#69 freakowski
I see that you're already drifting into Exultant-carpet's bad habits, having been reasonable in quoting monikers and post numbers as recently as yesterday morning. Do try to resist, as we can't always look back straightaway, and note that our own user profiles do not transparently show our own post numbers.
I also note that you make no attempt to defend your perverse definition of unionism from your #49.
"It was the Donald Dewar, and not Gordon Brown or Tony Blair who wrote the Scotland act, he, and many others, was a passionate believer in home rule. That's what we've got now."
You have a point re Dewar, although he only wrote what he was allowed to by Bliar and "Duff" Gordon . He may indeed have wanted home rule, but without fiscal autonomy it's most certainly not "what we've got now". What we've got now is partial, asymmetric devolution.
The lack of fiscal authority means that any Scottish government, unless it happens to have precisely the same political composition as the Westmidden one, will permanently be in dispute with them on fiscal matters.
Additionally, the lack of equivalent devolution for England results in Westmidden being both the union government and the English government, meaning that there is a built-in incentive for them to use the "muscle" provided by the Scotland Act in such a way as to "sell" best with English voters. I confess that NuLab have not yet excelled in using this to their advantage but suspect the "offical" Tories will make a better fist at it after the general election.
I do think the SNP were misguided to remain outwith both the Constitutional Convention and the Calman Commission. Although it would have been a certainty that they disagreed vehemently with the conclusions of both, at least they may have had more influence "inside the tent", and could always have produced a minority report at the end, as I hope the LibDems will be brave enough to do if the unionist parties have their way over Calman.
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#73 Ah - common ground at last:
"I (and others) would also describe ourselves as "European Unionists", because we think that political union is important."
Personally, I also believe in the EU (which makes me a minority everywhere). Many of the big problems of the world today can only really be addressed by pooling sovereignty to some degree or another.
But of course, that highlights the nationalist strategy that we should transfer control of our economy directly from the Bank of England and Treasury in London to the European Central Bank in Frankfurt.
So - who's got the best plan for the Scottish part of the British economy? Mr Darling or Jean-Claude Trichet? (I had to google the last part).
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#71 We maybe the 5th largest economy in the world but when 60%+ of our output came from a financial services industry that has imploded, that's not saying much.
Yes, we do still have a strong and advanced military but it's one that we keep hearing is poorly equipped and being stretched in all directions being involved in campaigns that we really had no need to be in 'other than to continue to demonstrate we are one of the big boys but instead managing to look like we're hanging on to the coat tails of the US in the hope that the world doesn't forget we exisit.
The truth is, we don't need to be involved in these conflicts and as such, don't need to have such a large military if its primary purpose is defense of the UK homeland and not going on whatever foreign adventure our US overlords decide they need help screwing up.
As for our place on the Security Council, that's simply a historical relic and means virtually zip. Lets face it, did the UN security resolutions force the Soviets out of Afganistan? No. The Argentinians out of the Falklands? No. Stop Saddam murdering chunnks of his own population and invadining and annexing a soverign neighbour state? No. Stop the genocides in the former Yugoslavia or Rwanda? No. Stopped America from invading anyone when they don't get the support of the other members of the Security Council? No.
So, in effect, what your saying is that we have a large economy (which we find out daily is increasingly in tatters). A large and powerful military that, increasingly due to the state of our economy, we can't afford to equip properly. And finally, a member of a toothless debating society who's largest member routinely ignores its edicts and whom we jump into bed with at every opportunity just to prove to the world that we should still be taken seriously?
How much is a one way ticket to Greenland going for?
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#71 Reluctant-Expat
"Well, that's just silly."
Do clarify what's "silly" about opposing NuLab's ID card scheme. Perhaps your brilliant exposition of its benefits to us all win over the support of those other parties - all of them - who diagree with the idea.
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#78
Just curious, wasn't it you who, in a previous thread, referred to Switzerland as Europes last 'legitimate facist state'?
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82. You lost the argument with this:We maybe the 5th largest economy in the world but when 60%+ of our output came from a financial services industry that has imploded, that's not saying much.
"60%+"?
84. No.
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#80 Browndov (that better?)
N.B. Your arguments are undermined by your childish use of name-calling.
Oh and I seem to remember that the Scotland Act was a virtual carbon-copy of the final report of the Scottish Constitutional Convention. I suppose if messes Blair and Brown had vehemently disagreed with it, they'd have spiked it, but they didn't - it was in their manifesto and they actually delivered on it. Hence we have a Scottish Parliament now.
Personally I voted "Yes-Yes", the second Yes being about tax-raising powers. The Scottish Government has the ability to raise our income tax so we could raise some extra money to support better Small Business/Healthcare/Education/Transport/Housing if we really wanted. Of course, you'd have to sell that one to the Scottish people.
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The following statement was issued by the Nordic Council today:
"A referendum held in Greenland on 25 November on the issue of greater autonomy resulted in a clear yes vote after almost three decades of the current constitutional settlement.
"An overwhelming majority voted in favour of a new devolution settlement. The Greenland government announced that 75.54 per cent voted for, 23.57 per cent against and the remainder were either blank or spoiled ballot papers. A total of 39,285 people were eligible to vote, and the turnout was 71.96 per cent.
"The way is now paved for Greenland to assume responsibility for more policy areas and also to gain property rights to underground resources.
"The vote will also have an impact on the block grant from Denmark, which has previously been adjusted as Greenland has assumed responsibility for more and more areas of its own administration. In future, the block grant will only be adjusted upwards to keep pace with rises in pay and prices.
"The new act will come into force on Greenland's national day - 21st of June 2009 - exactly thirty years after the introduction of home rule in its current form.
"Greenland already sits on the Nordic Council and Council of ministers as an autonomous territory."
Thirty years between devolution settlements. One wonders whether Scotland will be prepared to wait so long to acquire control over the underground resources in its territorial waters.
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#84 Fit_Like
Far be it from me to leap to the defence of Pucelet-Tax-Rant but it was Anglophone who made that allegation against the Swiss and then almost withdrew it.
Hard to tell them apart sometimes, though, and I'd love to know the 3rd EU country Prattle-Axe-Cnut is on about. Like Norway, Switzerland are in the EEA but not the EU.
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#85 RE
Which bit are you debating, the 60% or the fact that it has imploded?
Can I take it that, apart from that, you agree with thr rest as you don't dispute it?
As for post 84, if it wasn't you then, my apologies. It seemed like something you might have said and I simply didn't have the time to go trawling back through all the previous threads to find it.
Would the real owner of that quote care to step forward and claim the credit?
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69
" It was the Donald Dewar, and not Gordon Brown or Tony Blair who wrote the Scotland act, he, and many others, was a passionate believer in home rule."
Just to clarify a point or two. Donald Dewar was not passionate home-ruler or devolutionist. History rewritten by Labour there. Was anybody else at the performance of the " The Cheviot, the Stag and the Black Black Oil" I think it was a 7/84 production, at which the audience was invited to walk through the door marked "for" or "against" a Scottish Parliament and DDewar walked through the "against" door"
What actually happened was that the SNP was growing in strength and some scheme had to be made up that would spike the Independence bandwagon. Limited devolution was decided on but George Robertson wasn't considered smart enough to draw up conditions that would effectively deliver a devolved parliament while, at the same time, stuff the SNP.
The meticulously detailed DD was brought in and came up with a electoral system for a Parliament designed to prevent the SNP ever getting an overall majority. So far,so good (from the unionist point of view).
However..........
The plan relies on all the major parties in the Scottish Parliament bar the SNP remaining unionist or at least not dividing on the issue.
History teaches us that this is a tall order and the present crumbling of the UK state will present huge pressures on this issue in a month or two.
All this makes the huge damage inflicted on the SSP by Tommy Sheridan very hard to bear as a united socialist party could expect to deliver 6 or 9 independence votes in a Scottish parliament (and also hasten the end of the changeling now masquerading as Scottish Labour).
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89. No, you lost the argument with yet another ridiculous nationalist exaggeration.
No point reading the rest of your post.
Waste of my time.
Waste of bandwidth too.
Where's oldnat gone? I'm after his opinion on how oppressive, repressive and/or fascist the police-states of Netherlands, Belgium and Switzerland are by daring to have ID cards.
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87. At 2:39pm on 26 Nov 2008, frankly_francophone
Well done Greenland
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#86 freakowski
Thank you - much better.
"I seem to remember that the Scotland Act was a virtual carbon-copy of the final report of the Scottish Constitutional Convention"
The Scotland Act seems to miss out "the interests of the Scottish people will be paramount" from the preamble of the SCC Final Document.
You were more on the money in your #69 with "It was the Donald Dewar ... who wrote the Scotland act".
"Of course, you'd have to sell that one to the Scottish people."
Well at least Calman's pet economists seem to have agreed that fiscal autonomy is a good idea if not compatible with the existing UK. I hope that the LibDems, whose home rule, federalist ideas are also incompatible with the existing UK have the guts to stand up and demand a multi-choice, STV referendum in 2010.
I apologise if my choice of language offends you but as a believer in democracy before everything else I find myself unable to think of authoritarian NuLab and its architects with anything but disgust thanks to their contempt for democracy to the electorate as a whole and even within their own party as demonstrated by broken promises in the '97 manifesto, gerrymandering to secure "Duff" Gordon's coronation in '07 and even over Ms Moffat's reselection. Even the "official" Tories are now more democratic than NuLab.
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#81 freakowski
I suspect we may have more in common than you imagined.
Apart from Anaxim (who spurns identity politics of any kind) most of us begin our thinking about political structures from our "identities".
We are both Scottish and European (You would add British to the list). We both believe that pooling sovereignty in some of the "big" policy areas of is the sensible way forward in today's world, and that Scotland running many of its domestic affairs was a wise decision.
I hope you would agree that we should be in the eurozone, thus transferring some of the macro-economic decision making to the larger union.
Europe isn't ready yet to operate as a full Confederal democracy, but when it is, I'd prefer it to take over Foreign Affairs and Defence.
Do we still have agreement?
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Reluctant Expat
Could you possibly be a more dpressing person? It's not particluarly the content (I disagree with most of it but that's not the point). It's the sneering, unremitting negativism.
I suspect that you have very few friends ineed. Might I suggest that you get out and begin a life? Maybe walk round a park, look at some trees, try to do something joyful? Whatever you choose, just try something.....pleeeeaaaase.
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93. You are accusing Labour of broken manifesto promises?!
"1,000 new police", student debt, first-time buyer grants, school class sizes.....
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Expat
Netherlands - I D cards
Belgium - I D cards
ID Cards - Switzerland and elsewhere
If ID cards are not there to control the population then there is no point in them.
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#91 RE
Wrong again I'm afraid. I am not nor have I ever been a nationalist. Your sweeping generalisations have gone too far.
My interest in the result of any referendum on independence is largely academic as, whatever the result, I'll still be here, living in Scotland. Regardless of what people believe, Scotland has managed within the Union (whether or not it would have done better on its own is something I'll leave for others to discuss) and I'm sure it would continue to manage as an independant nation in its own right. There are pros and cons to both eventualities but we're an ingenious race and I'm sure we'll make the best job of whatever the future happens to throw at us (although w'll probably still moan about it).
I think that qualifies me to pass comment on what I percieve to be the faults of the UK without any particular party political bias.
My opinions are my own, I toe no party line.
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#95 irnbru_addict
You're forgetting his/her "buddy at Holyrood"!
Some of these cleaners have really negative personalities :-)
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97. Is that it? The 'anti-ID Card' anecdote from Switzerland was a basic police stop-check, I've had a couple myself. So what?
The entire contents of the 'Privacy International' page is either paranoid opinion/rumour or examples from Brazil and Afghanistan.....hardly relevant to the UK!
99. That reminds me, the SNP apparently had another one of their regular private polls last week. Did anyone here participate?
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#96 Exultant-carpet
"You are accusing Labour of broken manifesto promises?!"
Yup. How about this one for starters, from the 1997 Labour Party Manifesto: "We are committed to a referendum on the voting system for the House of Commons. An independent commission on voting systems will be appointed early to recommend a proportional alternative to the first-past-the-post system."
Did I miss the vote on that? And remember, that was from a party which won an absolute majority of Westmidden seats in 1997, 2001 & 2005.
Unlike the SNP, they don't have the valid excuse that they are a minority government and don't complete their first term until 2011.
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#101 what about Labour's claim to have abolished the boom bust cycle.
#95 You know sometimes I think RE is a stooge sent in to set up the argument for independence rather than the argument against, the aggressive language is a deliberate ploy to ensure a reaction. I could be wrong though and they are just a stooge.
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#101 Labour did promise things can only get better.
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#40 Neil - agreed, a full debate is needed; which is why it is so sad that the farce Calman Commission was deliberately set up to squash such a debate. Now it is in the process of collapse - there is another opportunity.
#41 (and every subsequent post) Expat - more pathetic drivel, as regular contributors to this board have come to expect from you.
#49 freakowski - call it what you want then. As it happens, I was born in Belfast to a wholly protestant family ... so I very much use the term 'unionist' as a political description and nothing else. As an advocate of continued union it is applicable ... even if you don't like the term. It is rather like those on the independence side who prefer 'Scottish sovereigntist' to 'nationalist', neither major 'label' will be changing any time soon.
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#100 Reluctant-Expat
It's your lot that want to change the status quo, so how about breaking the habit of a lifetime and trying to follow the brig's guidelines that those who want change are the ones who should justify it?
Still no signs of the wizard reasons we should support them I asked for in my #83.
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#103 InMyKip
LOL. What a success they've made of that.
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#103 InMyKip wrote:
"Labour did promise things can only get better."
On reflection, it was probably a "miswrite" like the VAT one from the PBR. It should have read: "things can only get bitter".
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Reluctant-Expat
You have given away too much in your #78 and #100. Even if the SNP don't want to know who you are, the bedroom nats you keep on at can get together with their hacker chums to cross check the 3 databases and out you will pop.
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#90 Sneckedagain
Tosh. I feel like I'm in a Science Fiction movie where the past is changing in front of my eyes. Your belief that the collective political experience of scotland revolves around the antics of a single party is wrong and laughable. But, there's no point arguing that one because you clearly
I agree with you (partially) on the Tommy Sheridan point - but I think that a decent SSP would have taken more "anti-labour" votes from the SNP than the other way around. May even have taken mine.
N.B. Interestingly, their rationale for independence was that it would be more likely that they could impose their policies on Scotland than the UK. Including Nationalisation of the banks ...
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96. At 3:47pm on 26 Nov 2008, Reluctant-Expat wrote:
93. You are accusing Labour of broken manifesto promises?!
"1,000 new police", student debt, first-time buyer grants, school class sizes.....
YES, we will not raise income tax !!!!!!! liars.
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#94 Old-Nat
And this comes to one of my major concerns over the future of Scotland.
(a) Yes, we should probably have joined in the Euro at the start and (b) yes we probably should in the future but (c) not without taking our main market and business partners (ie the rest of the UK) with us.
Otherwise, we have the nightmare scenario of having so many companies and organisations (such as the banks, service industry, manufacturing etc.) operating across the (Berwick Gretna) border with two different currencies. How's that going to work? We'd just make ourselves uncompetitive with our biggest trading partner.
It's been a real failure of the past 10 years that the government has never addressed petty (anti-European) nationalism by presenting a set of convincing arguments in favour of European integration. At that point, many of your concerns about the Westminster settlement simply wither away. Until then, "going it alone" and tearing us out of one financial system and diving into another doesn't make sense ...
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96. At 3:47pm on 26 Nov 2008, Reluctant-Expat wrote:
93. You are accusing Labour of broken manifesto promises?!
"1,000 new police", student debt, first-time buyer grants, school class sizes.....
YES, NULAB are liars, their 2005 manifesto said that they would not increase income tax.
GB said in his 2007 budget, i will scrap the 10p tax band.
Where the truth is that GB should have said i will increase the 10p tax band to 20p, which is what was done.
During the years of the LIB DEM / NULAB administration, police no,s dropped year on year.
During the years of the LIB DEM / NULAB administration, student debt rocketed.
During the years of the LIB DEM / NULAB administration, more and more first time buyers were forced out the housing market due to the inflated house prices.
During the years of the LIB DEM / NULAB administration, no progress was made in reducing the school class sizes.
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41. At 10:43am on 26 Nov 2008, Reluctant-Expat wrote:
35. Why do nationalists still spout this silliness?
Not one anti-independence voice claims Scotland is "too poor" to be independent.
(I have repeatedly asked for any nationalist to quote someone saying so............surprise, surprise, no-one has done so.)
Hi Reluctant-Expat,
I'm not sure how to to post links but there are loads of videos on youtube showing British Unionists putting Scotland down at every opportunity - George Foulkes, Jack McConnell, Westminster based MPs.
If you type in these titles to Youtube:
Alex Salmond & Jack Mcconnell on 01/04/07 pt1 the other parts are interesting too.
Question Time 22/02/07 - Scottish Independence
Alex Salmond Vs the impartial bbc (full version)
It is the role of the entire Scottish media and Unionist MPs to ensure that Scotland feels too poor and incapabable of running her own affairs.
Maybe the Union would last longer if we treated in a more honest fashion.
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#111 freakowski
I want the rest of the UK to be in the Euro as well (I'm sure most Nationalists would want the same).
Having the same currency as our largest trading partner makes sense. I presume that this is why the SNP policy used to be that Scotland would stick with sterling in the medium term after independence.
However, if the eurosceptics in England voted to leave Europe, I would hope that Scotland would vote to stay in.
Given the choice of being in a small 18th century union or a large 21st century union, I would choose the latter. Hopefully we won't be forced into making such a choice.
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#113 ClanCampbell73
Thanks for the info.
For links and other HTML, see my #84 on the New ways into blogs thread and my #75 on the same thread containing more about HTML.
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#113 ClanCampbell73
If you simply want to post a link, just copy and paste the web address here, and it will automatically become a link.
This one will take you to a page created by Ed Iglehart
http://home2.btconnect.com/tipiglen/hints.html
which will show you how to turn it into a Clever Link
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109
freakowski
I can't make any sense of your point, if there was one.
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Thank you oldnat and brownedov.
Testing 123:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=xoBV2wui3EM
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=mNRmugH6oBE
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=eaWGyhjuqR0
Great film:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=IZtnYDgwcT0
A marvellous thing this youtube.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=R1cyNItHkF8
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=556FEKoVd-w
Some fine BBC productions in amongst this lot. I think the BBC are fairly even handed in their coverage of Scotland - well compared to the Scotsman.
Although I have noticed a strong anti-SNP streak come (back) in recently. Especially since Glenrothes and the dark shadow of Lord Mandy came back.
I long for the day that one main-stream media outlet in Scotland gives an honest and balanced account of status quo v more powers v full Independence for Scotland.
You sense in the media that they realise that bit by bit the truth is seeping out with regard to Scotlands financial status and as more powers transfer to Holyrood it really is only a matter of time before we have fiscal autonomy. There seems to be a bit of desperation about creating scare stories to stop the SNPs increase in popularity (see the Scotsman every day of the week).
I think fiscal autonomy would be a great step for Scotland. It would mean that we really could feel like a full partner of the Union, not just a region and have the levers to improve our economy and future. I hate the fact that most people in England mistakenly believe they subsidise us. If Independence comes after fiscal autonomy we will do that successfully too.
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#118 ClanCampbell73
Welcome to the blog; it seems to work. Some posters latch onto the fact you're a newbie and try to browbeat you and scare you off. Just ignore them. I'm afraid I beat on a newbie while trying to catch an old trout but I said sorry afterwards when I realised.
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