Across the water
The world is watching. It's the electoral contest that will shape the future of the planet.
Yes, from Cardenden to Methil, they'll make their choice. Glenrothes will speak. Be my guest.
Try telling Fifers that there's something rather more significant, electorally, happening across the water. They won't believe you. They know, in their souls, that nothing important happens in Dundee.
Ach, I don't mean it, really. I love Fife. I studied at a university there. OK, so maybe St Andrews isn't quintessentially Fife. Former miners bit thin on the ground around the Ladebraes and the Scores.
For those unlucky enough to have been born outwith the Kingdom, the contest in Glenrothes is somewhat overshadowed by the choice confronting millions of Americans.
Energetic endeavours
Is that deliberate? Was it part of Labour's strategic thinking to time this by-election alongside one of the most intriguing US Presidential contests in history?
Almost certainly, yes. Will it work? Depends what you mean. It won't affect the outcome. Fifers will vote according to their own choice.
Of course, that wasn't the thinking which was that a potential defeat might be minimised in media impact by coterminosity with a much larger political event.
However, there's another timing issue in Glenrothes. Will the voters reward Gordon Brown for his energetic endeavours to rescue the economy? (Labour's theory.)
Or has the impact of that declined already, leaving voters more concerned about their own circumstances? (Copyright, SNP.)
I'm 
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~06~RS~)
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Brian
What we can expect in the aftermath is either the SNP crowing that this is further evidence of a desire for independance, or Labour crowing that the electorate wnat more of the same.
Hobsons choice really, we don't want either
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The result will be very close, but I think that labour will scrape home and win the byelecetion. The circumstances in the election are different in that the sitting MP died rather than that in Glasgow East where he resigned before his election expenses were looked at by the authority's
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Weather forecast suggests a dreich, drizzly day for Glenrothes on Thursday.
No doubt, someone out there has analysed the turn-out figures for different weather conditions in Fife!
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Whatever the outcome of the Glenrothes by election one thing is for sure, Labour can no longer take its traditional "Scottish" vote for granted.
Let's face it they did'nt have enough activists canvassing the area, they even had to resort to drafting some of them in from the North of England.
I'm sure that irony will not be lost with some voters.
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I'm surprised that Lord Haw Haw hasn't started posting on this thread yet, but he'll have some spinning to do with today's Europe dragged down by weak UK from the Pink 'Un.
The article starts with a cheery: "Europe's economic growth will grind almost to a halt next year, dragged down by a weak UK, but the continent will fare better than the US, according to the European Commission."
Somehow, I can't see that playing too well for "Duff" Gordon in Glenrothes.
Off out now but will look back later.
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Far across the deep blue waters'
Is a coal miners daughter.
Yip, clear waters and the responsibility of the state against the deregulated mess of conservative and republican shortfallings.
Lets hope those wise words "I have a dream" are realised and we hoist the sails and set a new course for a better world.
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The thing I worry about is if Labour win by the skin of their teeth, the media - who are back to being Gordon's best mates - may look at it as a sign of triumph, when in actual fact anything but a holding of the majority is a sign of failure on Labour's part.
Before the Glasgow East by-election, all the SNP had to do was close the gap significantly to show that Labour have failed; now the bar has been raised and Labour will claim a win with a majority of 1 as a show of support for Gordon, when really it would be the equivalent of Scotland trumpeting about a 1-0 win over San Marino, thanks to an injury time penalty awarded under dubious circumstances, with the referee finding an excuse to have it taken again when the first one misses the goal.
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The people of Fife are not daft, at least the weren't last time I looked. If they succumb to the false blandishments of the Labour Party they are in danger of losing their sanity.
Labour has been up spreading spurious mince and trying to win by the old, "Scotland needs England to survive" mantra. Of course, they are ever careful not to tell those poor, sick miners that their dear, caring Labour Party plans to force them off Incapacity Benefit so that they can be compelled to attend, "Jobseeker Courses".
Anyway, it's up to them. If they want another invisible, toadying MP, vote Labour.
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...a potential defeat might be minimised in media impact by coterminosity with a much larger political event.
Well Brian, it wouldn't be the first time Labour tried to bury bad news, would it?
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Re7
I feel the need to disagree strongly.
If the SNP don't win it will be a major shocker. After Glasgow East this should be a piece of cake. (SNP council, SNP MSP).
They certainly have shouted enough about winning it. Anything other than another victory is a dismal result for the SNP.
I sense a feeling of the SNP preparing for bad news. Labour are too arrogant to consider this result as bad news whatever happens. Either way the result will be spun equally by both parties at the expense of the electorates wishes
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The news that RBS may be posting a loss is a little bit worrying.
What would Alex Salmond's response be?
we all know Gordon's - "it's the global crisi but we will overcome etc etc"
More imortantly, will this have any affect on how people vote? (sensible comments please)
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#7 ....Bassist
That's more like it, "Big Eck" the "masterful" is the equivalent of the manager of wee San Marino - welcome back to the real world!!
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Why is it that Scots hand over money to another country to fund their main media and broadcasting channels?
With that money, that other country then dictates what Scots see of other countries and what other countries see of Scotland.
Per head, Scots have probably paid more to see the US elections (over the past 18 months) via their licence fee, than will be invested in Scotland's own election news broadcast coverage.
Despite being neighbours, England knows very little of Scots elections or their government. Why should they, BBC / ITV does not consider Scotland?s elections worthy of news minutes or column inches.
Strange when we are neighbours, yet the US is so far away.
Is their another country in Europe where the government has no supporting papers and is starved of media coverage?
A McG
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#12 salmondella
Or to translate your comment without the epithets -
"The First Minister of Scotland is equivalent to the manager of San Marino."
I suspect your "real world" must be a nasty little place.
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Has any of the political contenders shown a willingness to confront sectaranism and bigotry in Scotland or have they all scampered away from this old boil that is in desperate need of lacing in Alba
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I see that the Labour Government has now infuriated another small country!
Darling wants the UK to re-examine the relationship with the Isle of Man but hasn't talked to the Manx about it!
'It's absolutely unprecedented and totally outrageous what he's done'.
There's not been a hint about a problem with our constitutional relationship and if there was this is not the sort of forum to make that sort of announcement.'
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Did anyone see the 'interview' with Labour's Lindsey Roy on Newsnight last night?
Does he know that he is supposed to be standing for Westminster and not Holyrood and looked mildly shicked when he was asked that?
In fact, this was the first time that I had seen him in 'action' and was amazed that such a weak candidate was selected. He may be an excellent rector, but that does not make a politician.
I suspect the result will be close. But who has the more positive message of we can do and who has a party who should have quit dithering and acted years ago on the dodgy financial dealings and did not act on fuel prices? Something they could've done and did'nt.
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We should all look for examples of good practice in the electoral arrangements of other countries.
However, I can't see a nudist polling station being very popular in Glenrothes!
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Lindsey Roy has become the classic career politician overnight: his ignorance put on display by this campaign is frankly scary ... He could have been the great Foulkes himself!
As for his most recent lies of 'SNP cuts on education' are beneath contempt; especially when his school and Fife in general got an above inflation rise. Especially, when his school suffered a cut of 500,000 in Labour's last years in control of the Council!
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Re 15
Politicians don't really want to tackle the sectarian issue, it is too dificult and won't win votes.
The issue requires a fundamental rethink on the basics of life in parts of scotland, this will never happen as to many special interest groups will ensure it doesn't.
Balme Rangers and to a lesser extent Celtic for the problem and leave them to sort it out. Easy!
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Brian,
I was quite interested in the 'poll' at the weekend showing that support for independence was only statistically insignificant from support for the Union (35% for independence v 43% for the Union - a majority failing to back the Union.) A 4% swing along with 22% undecided is all that would be required. Surely this shows only a negligable change from before the current tribulations?
To borrow a phrase from the chippy Scottish Unionist media (present company excluded of course), surely that is a "devastating blow" to the narrative of a few weeks ago, where independence was supposedly off the agenda for a generation or more?
If after all the effort that has been expounded by the media, politicians and others, the effect on independence has been to increase the undecided variety has not all that effort gone to waste?
How will the Lloyds/HBOS deal impinge upon this narrative too, given the prospect of painful job losses in Scotland with a concomitant negative effect on the Scottish Economy? Was it wise of Gordon Brown to attach himself too closely and - by extension - the Union to the fate of this deal? Could it be that this is where the real constitutional effect of the "banking crisis" for Scotland really lies?
As for predictions, I'd go for SNP by between 1,000 and 3,000. The result will be down to the "ground war" on the day and which parties can get their members motivated to go to the polls on a dreary November evening. From what I've heard, the SNP are far superior in this department plus I detect a mood of resignation amongst Labour with respect to this by election, now.
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#14 Oldnat
I thought Glenrothes was a UK by-election? So my reference is to the wee SNP as I don't think the Scottish Government is standing for election but then again it is easy to become confused by the SNP campaigning strategy. Thanks anyway for taking time out of your busy schedule to attempt to clarify on my behalf!!
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13--Alasdair Mcgray
While watching the "English Six" last night I heard the news reader say that "the Sottish PARLIAMENT"....had approved the Trump deal when patently it was Swinney and the Scottish Government. But hey ho, it's only Scotland.
Martin Ford also interviewed by BBC, but no mention that Aberdeenshire Council overturned his decision and that he was sacked by his own LibDem pals!
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21. Had a look at the SNP response to this poll and it seems they have decided to 'conveniently forget' the Apr 08 and July 08 polls that both had support for independence above 40% (compared to the 35% in this one) and just mention the poll from last August which also showed support for independence at 35%.
Kudos for your attempt at spinning a positive:
" a majority failing to back the Union."
At 35%, I'd say there was a slightly larger majority failing to back independence. Again.
And as for the effort for a positive spin from Sturgeon:
"This poll shows that support for independence is high enough and strong enough for that referendum to be won."
Really? Are you sure now? You base that on yet another poll showing a significant fall in support?
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5 Brownedov
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#17 tammienorrielass1
Us expats can't see it because of IP restrictions in the iPlayer, but I think much of it is what's shown on auntie's eminently balanced Labour's Roy says 'vote for me'. The one redeeming feature is that Roy himself made such a poor fist of his pitch that it probably does qualify as balanced.
Off again to find sick bucket.
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Brian, you must be the only BBC politico that hasn't got himself a holiday in the USA to help Obama"s campaign; have you not been toeing the line, or have you been making nasty phone calls ? The Glenrothes by election is going to be the least publicised election in history. The media will spend the next three days analysing the US election , as though their lives depend on it. I suspect it wont make any difference to Britain/Scotland apart from the fact that if Obama wins, British / Scottish troops might find themselves in Afghanistan on their own in a few months time. If Brown wins, the great comeback will be trumpeted, and if he loses " It's only a by election ". Hopefully the people of Glenrothes will send him back to Westminster with his tail between his legs.
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#27 Brownedov
That was quite embarrassing to watch.
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Re my comment at 23- I made a typo.
Scottish, not Sottish!
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#26 Anglophone
The difficult with UK economic performance is that the 'Union' drags back performance in Areas outside of the South-East.
Perhaps if independent we would all be better off and richer?
Surely this would be of great benefit to everyone in the UK.
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I think the poll mentioned shows that the Private Fraser anti-independence pitch of the Labour Party, which has been given a mighty airing lately ("we're doomed, we're doomed") could be worth about a 3% to 4% swing with the wind right behind it. Or it could have had less or no effect, and just be sampling error. I don't see much shift in the fairly long running 40/40/20 split between independence, union, and don't know. If either side could capture the don't knows, then success in a referendum would be theirs. It doesn't look that Gordon Brown's attempt to portray himself as the man to rescue us from a crisis he, er, actually allowed to happen and partly created himself has made much of an inroad towards that. So, still all to play for indeed....
It isn't by accident that this by-election was held on the US election week. When the date was picked, the Labour leadership was thinking about how to bury bad news.
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Someone in London has a sense of humour!
The photo in this article is worth a look.
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31. I'm still waiting for any nationalist to contradict the OECD and name any small, unsubsidised European country that has outperformed the UK economy over the last 20-30 years.
In other words; Evidence to support claims that the UK has held us back and also a precedent to show us that Scotland could grow stronger outside the UK.
Suggestions so far...
Arc of Prosperity I:
Iceland (bankrupt, bailed out by IMF, interest rates at 18%, suddenly considered "too small to be relevant" by Salmond)
Ireland (rapid growth but heavily subsidised, the first and still the only European nation to go into full recession)
Norway (running consecutive non-oil deficits averaging 5% of GDP for the past 20 years, heavily propped up by oil)
Arc of Prosperity II:
Norway (see above)
Finland, Sweden, Denmark (none of these economies have matched UK growth in past 20 years).
Others:
Netherlands (lower growth)
Belgium (ditto)
Portugal (ditto)
Austria (ditto)
Switzerland (ditto)
Spain (grown slightly faster but subsidised 8-9bn euros each year)
All other small Euro nations (also heavily subsidised by the EU)
I only know of one.
Luxembourg (matches all criteria, similar population to Iceland but seemingly still acceptable to the SNP)
However, you appear to have some examples going by your post.....
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When are the media coverage going to ask Lindsey Roy some tougher questions instead of guiding him through his interviews with easy ones he just doesn`t seem strong enough and needs to be exposed to what he really stands for ,come on he didn`t even know his own budget for his own school when asked, I want to hear what hes goin to do all I hear is smear the SNP with help from the media .
The SNP candidate Peter Grant seems to handle himself well and would be a better MP for the people of Fife to what i`ve seen so far ,but if he doesn`t win I think it wont change to much for the better. The people should ask themselves whos goin to stand up for there area and Scotland . I can`t see as I said before Lindsey Roy being strong enough for it. Think the SNP are doin a fine job so far so i would go for him.
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#26 Anglophone
Welcome back. Good to see that absence really does make the heart grow fonder but perhaps doesn't help the memory quite so much.
What I relish is not yet more harm inflicted on the UK economy but that it will not play too well for the arch-unionists who post so often on these thread concerning the wonders for Scotland of the union dividend while spreading doom and gloom for the prospects of wee pretendy countries.
If you'd looked at many of my previous posts you'd know that most of my savings are in sterling in the largest remaining building society, so I'm as unhappy as anyone about the decline in the GBP against the USD, CHF and EUR as anyone.
I am sure that my colleagues in the UN agencies will be thrilled to learn that we all have sinecures, especially the ones I'll be on mission in the third world with some next week and I'll make sure to pass the news on to them too. I must confess that I'd previously thought that the WHO, FAO, UNHCR et al generally did things the world wanted but I'll pass on your views.
Having looked at some of your recent posts, I don't quite understand what you have against the Swiss apart from their direct democracy. You did post a list of failed empires recently where the Swiss don't figure, so could it be that they're not aggressive enough for you?
I'm not even sure why you pick me as your target. Home rulers are few in number but generally somewhere between the LibDem federal position and the SNP goal of full independence and include old Liberals like me. A few months ago someone on these blogs compared organising Liberals to herding cats which I thought rather apposite, but you're welcome to try.
When it comes to churning out the same bile, bigotry and baloney as before or stooping low or sheer malice I clearly have much to learn from unionists, but I'll try hard not to.
Finally, to keep from straying off-topic, I regard a vote for the SNP's Peter Grant in Glenrothes as very much the best option to keep home rule in the public eye and to give NuLab a reminder that their days are numbered. Who do you recommend and why?
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#26 Anglophone
On posting my #36 I have discovered that your post has been referred to the mods. Although it wasn't particularly on-topic it certainly wasn't far off-topic by R-E's or others' standards.
I assure you that I did not refer it and hereby ask the mods to restore it.
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Now here is a good reason not to have direct rule from London.
The 26 page document on cat welfare begins with a warning to owners: "It is your responsibility to read the complete Code of Practice to fully understand your cat's welfare needs and what the law requires you to do."
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#10 northhighlander
You'd have a better case had not the unionist media spun so much in NuLab's favour.
I agree that an SNP victory, if it happens, will probably be overplayed a little by the SNP but I'm none too sure that the unionist media will give them the platform to allow it to happen.
Any drop in the NuLab majority will hardly be good news for them, but I agree with others that if they win by the toss of a coin, "Duff" Gordon will be hailed as a comeback kid. The sad thing is that should it happen, it won't just be NuLab doing the spinning but the BBC and the print media also.
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#34 Reluctant-Expat
"I'm still waiting for any nationalist to contradict the OECD and name any small, unsubsidised European country that has outperformed the UK economy over the last 20-30 years."
Despite not being a nationalist, I'd love to help if only you would put the unattributed OECD graphic in your post of a few threads back into anything approaching a context.
I've tried Google, AltaVista and other search engines but although the graphic is in the OECD archives it doesn't seem to appear in any of their web pages.
If you'd tell us how you came by it, it might substantiate that there's a real question to answer.
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#29 oldnat
If the link in my #27 was an extract of it, it certainly was and that's only edited "highlights" as far as I can make out.
Interesting how auntie interprets the rules on "balance". In "normal" times, she can obviously get away with it by claiming a "long view" but I don't recall coverage of Maggie in Glasgow East being quite so one-sided.
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#38 oldnat
Bother! No herding instructions there.
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Perhaps someone might care to comment on this.
Despite Gordon's claims to the contrary, nobody seems to believe him that Britain is "best placed to weather the global financial turbulence", not the currency markets, not foreign investors and nor now the European Commission.
The FT reports that the Commission is forecasting EU growth will slow from 1.4% cent this year to just 0.2% in 2009, while the eurozone economy would expand by 1.2% this year and only 0.1% in 2009. Among the EU's largest economies, the UK would be the worst performer next year, when its economy would contract by 1% the Commission forecast.
Is'nt that just super!
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#27 Just watched your link ..... Lindsey Roy says 'Vote for me' after seeing that id have to ask why ??? Hes not a very convincing character .... he didnt even know what his schools budget was the year before .... oh somebody else was in charge then he says ..... im no economist but even if i was running a school id want to know what money we had the year before so that i would know what kind of financial goals had to be set.... i think he probably was the only suitable Labour candidate they could find and thats not very good.
I heard Alex on the radio tonight speaking about Hogmany in Edinburgh .... and all you people who cant stand him should take note ....... he speaks with great enthusiasm about subjects and unlike the other boring lot is someone that people can listen to ....... my feeling with this is that the more people hear or see Alex talking the more people will turn to the SNP .
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#38 Oldnat .... Defra must be bored with harassing the farmers .... but i thought this funny
'The document, which will be published as a leaflet and on Defra's website after an eight week consultation period, says owners must provide their pets with a "suitable place to live" including "somewhere suitable to go to the toilet". It also advises providing a separate litter tray for each cat.'
My cat goes outside to do his whoopsies ... am i supposed to follow him around to find out when hes ready and dig the hole for him ??? Seperate litter tray for each cat ..... wow my inlaws have 5 cats ... thats a lot of floor space
Besides we leave the tv on when were not there. Not very green i know but at least the dog gets to watch what he wants when the kids are at school ;o)}
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38. oldnat
Just shows HB's ignorance of the law as one can be prosecuted for a dogs actions yet not for a cat as they own you.
The betting on Sunday evening swung back in favour of SNP 0.5/1 against Labour 1.66/1, hope they've got it right. Roy certainly gave the impression of not knowing which parliament he would like to go to.
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I had a most ironic conversation with a Glasgow bricklayer who lived in the city's East End. Over a pint we discussed world events and how the credit crunch is having a serious impact on the global economy etcetera, we finally arrived at the East End BI-election and the bricklayer told me that he had voted SNP when I asked why? He replied "they promised to build schools" this put a wry smile on my face, how ironic is this voters situation. We hear about North Sea oil and Norway on a regular basis but has anyone been to Norway and sampled the delights of their independence if so then you are in the Donald Trump camp if you can afford Norway. The people of Fife are still living with the devastation that the tories inflicted and I am sure they will not be tempted by the soft tory agenda ?do they have one?? of the snp.
Talking about selling the family jewels comes to mind ?now that?s a Trump card or should that be cad?.
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#43 DisgustedDorothy
Peter Mandelson thinks that Gordon Brown is "leading the rest of the world out of this crisis."!
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Labour have hit the bottom of the barrel and bounced up an inch. That should see the safe Labour seat being retained, albeit with a reduced share of the votes. Labour are the party of the workshy, the poorly qualified and the public sector workers (oh and BBC Scotland). That must account for about two thirds of the vote in Fife. The people must be happy being in one of those three categories. We'll see if they are this week.
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Thinking about it, Labour have nearly achieved their idea of utopia in Scotland. We can all work for the state or live off the state. With ID cards, CCTV and more police. Like 1984.
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"It won't affect the outcome (in Glenrothes)." Brian Taylor says of the US election.
On the contrary, the psychological effect of an Obama win will be the final nail in Labour's chance of victory.
Elections are people events and people are affected by psychology.
When Obama wins today old mindsets will be smashed automatically. A black man (brown actually, much more acceptable) will be in the Whitehouse........anything can now happen.
Any form of change can happen, the impossible can happen.
Voters who would love to break their Labour mould will be energised by the forthcoming Obama victory.
SNP activists will be spurned on, their final push will be given added impetus sufficient to catapult Peter Grant into Westminster.
Very little of this will be intellectualised, it will instead be felt, generating powerful, unstoppable emotions, generating new hope, new self belief.
SNP victory on Thursday will be assured.
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Brian, I think that there is a conspiracy against you!!!
When all your Beeb pals are off to the Big Apple, Washington, califrnia and all these lovely places you're stuck in Levenmouth. (Didn't the Duke of Edinburgh describe Levenmouth as the "bottom" hole of the universe?). We demand to know why your left in Glenrothes constituence!!!
I know the reason - IT'S A NEW LABOUR PLOT!!!!
Remember Ian Gray's acceptance speech? He castigated Alex salmond for a number of reasons. What was the prime one? Eck went to St.Andrews University! Now you reveal that you went there too...
It's too much of a coincidence Brian. You are being persecuted by New Labour. The only member of Beeb staff left in the UK 'cos they're all off to the good ol' US of A. There's definitely a question mark on your affiliation because you went to a dodgy yooni. You may may infected, so you don't get the good jobs.
Poor Brian!
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#44 rabbiehippo
Certainly unimpressive - possibly campaign fatigue I suppose, but I feel a little sorry for the school I hope he will be returning to on Friday.
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Ha ha ...... Missing-bricks ..... your either RE or Derek lol .... must try harder .... your first post and it immediatly attack the SNP a dead give away.
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#47 missing-bricks
Norway's standard of living is the 4th highest in the world, according to the UN.
You are confusing how much it cost you to buy things in Norway after converting your currency into the Norwegian krone.
It's more than bricks that you're missing!
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I have bet on the double. Obama and the SNP....both good for their country !
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Some of you fellow bloggers are getting a wee bit wrapped up in the moment. Who will win in Glenrothes ? What tiny shifts can be measured in opinion polls about independence ? I prefer to step back a bit and put things in perspective.
1. Win or loose on Thursday the significance of Glasgow East and Glenrothes is that the SNP have demonstrated that they are capable of challenging Labour for every seat in Scotland - even in Westminster elections. There are NO safe Labour seats in Scotland anymore.
2. Opinion polls on independence are bound to fluctuate. What will count is how opinion is shaping up by 2010 and how the debate pans out in the lead up to the referendum. There will be many more twists and turns between now and then but my feeling is that unionists will need to find a positive case for the UK to stand a chance of winning. Stand by for the spectacle of Labour chumming up with the UK Tory government to try to shoot down Scottish self-confidence.
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While the attention of the francophone world is tonight on the election on the other side of the pond, it is probably true to say that this has something to do with the fact that those who inhabit that world are acutely conscious of the fact that the financial crisis now affecting them originated in the Anglo-American one. Who now comes to power in the United States, therefore, is of great interest to them with reference to the potential outcome of the international conference on reform of global financial regulation that is to take place on November 15th and which the winning candidate will apparently attend, although he will not yet be formally in office then.
As the United States is currently heavily committed to military operations in two countries while faced with an economic downturn unprecedented in living memory, with unemployment and home-repossession affecting or about to affect large numbers of people and with the US financial sector having fallen effectively under state control, as has the UK one, the sight of vast numbers of US electors turning out to vote, many of them for the first time and at great inconvenience to themselves, is quite fascinating.
As for the by-election in Scotland, it has not seemed likely that the electors of Glenrothes would turn out in phenomenally impressive numbers or queue up to vote. America may change irrevocably as a result of the presidential election. When Scottish electors care enough about stirring themselves sufficiently to vote in respectable numbers in elections, then one can start to believe that Scotland may change irrevocably. Until then do not expect the francophone world to stir itself to notice what is happening in Cardenden or Methil.
Even so, after the by-election, if the Scottish National Party wins it, even the immediate aftermath of the US presidential election will not prevent the news from getting through, and the implications of a further loss of a safe Labour seat to the SNP will not go entirely un-noticed. If the SNP does indeed win this by-election, the next UK general election will be followed in the francophone world with as much interest as the current US one is being followed there now.
Having just read #51 BrianHill and bearing in mind the excitement that is being generated in America on election day with the prospect of an Obama victory and all that that may mean for America, I am left wondering whether some of that excitement might be communicated across the Atlantic to the electors of Glenrothes, as BrianHill suggests, so as to infect them with sufficient enthusiasm to transform their view of what is possible and to induce them to turn out in large numbers to vote. If Obama wins and if his natural constituency responds to that as I think it probably will, it is indeed not inconceivable that those who wish to see radical change in Scotland will find that radical change may come suddenly to be viewed more positively and as a realistic possibility by a substantially increased proportion of the electorate.
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Hopefully, moderation will speed up tomorrow, once the US election is over.
Unfortunately many Americans prefer to post on the Beeb's US related blogs, rather than their own ones.
I learn from a US poster that the BBC sells advertisements when non-UK people log on - clearly being a commercial company is more important to the Beeb than servicing domestic customers.
I don't mind the Beeb selling the ad space - I do object that they don't use the profits to hire enough moderators.
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Desperation or what? I hope the pies have all been safely locked away in Glenrothes in preparation for Prezza's visit on Wednesday. See the Thunderer's Don't knows face John Prescott the persuader.
Aside from being there "to avert a Labour disaster at Glenrothes", it says that England's greatest living orator "will also portray Lindsay Roy, the Labour candidate and headmaster of the Prime Minister's former school, Kirkcaldy High, as a source of inspiration for young people in the area." I wonder how many in Glenrothes speak 'prezzanese'?
To be fair, he could hardly do worse than Roy himself did on TV, could he?
Time to switch to US results I think. Goodnight all.
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So the hidden polls are showing labour
on the march
Share of projected votes...........
Labour 49%
S N P 31%
lid/dem 16%
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What's this with people trying to compare the US elections with Glenrothes?
And some people trying to compare Alex Salmond with Obama (#51 Brian Hill for starters). Come on! Obama is about half the size for starters.
While I would like to see Obama win, the US election will have absolutely no impact on Glenrothes. If McCain was flying ahead in the polls I'm sure you would have come out with a similar statement.
Next people will be comparing Gordon Brown to Ronald Reagan.
Small little point to ponder. Brent crude has dropped below 60 dollars a barrel. How will that affect the economy? And if Scotland was independent how much an impact could that have? If oil money was used to bail out a bank, on current prices that means more oil would have to be sold to do so. Simplistic I know but probably true. Bear in mind also that the RBS is apparently going to post a loss.
Maybe Donald Trump will lend a few bucks.
Meanwhile in Westmister, will Gordon Brown be putting pressure on the energy companies to reduce prices? Nope, since he claws lots of VAT from it.
And Mandy is under renewed pressure. I bet Gordon is regretting making him a lord.
And what happened to the moderation? 23:50 here and 10:00 last post passed.
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Ah, my friend a cad in hand, heee heee
Time has been an impotant part of this election, however the greatist gift of all
has been the snp admin failure to deliver.
The good people of Glenrothes have a strong dislike for those who advocate tax cuts and job losses.
Those foundation are still strong and the brick laying goes on!
It seems the flag wavers have raised the white ensign......Rabbie laddie.
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#62 Neil_Small There is nothing in my post which even comes near to me comparing Alex Salmond to Obama, though the men share many similarities e.g. both highly intelligent and both able to connect with people.
Both are very likeable, are trusted by the public and are genuinely interested in improving the welfare of the people they lead.
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ps, the first part of my prediction in post 51 (not a difficult one I grant you) has effectively come true:
"When Obama wins today...."
He has 207 projected electoral votes so far with California, Oregon and Washington still voting and a host of other seats ready to declare for Obama e.g. Virginia and even probably Florida.
Watch the rest of the prediction come true on Thursday as the Obama win energises the SNP for one final push to elect Grant.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Just wait until Gordon Brown faces the democracy of a general election the way Barack Obama has.
The people will decide.
Then, maybe, if Gordon Brown is elected as PM, he can congratulate Barack Obama more as an equal.
Let's not forget the GB raid on private pension schemes to the tune of £17000 per person, among other things.
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The biggest vote ever in history has rejected conservative policies, America has spoken, It not about the might of your army nor the judgment of your wealth, it about people, peace and collective responsibility.
The time has come for change and our time has come! let there be no mistake in Glenrothes, a vote for the nats is avote for the dead wood conservative agenda's.
Cameron, Salmond,Thatcher, you've had your day, Goodbye!
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Labour supported and engineered the war in Iraq.
We now have a government in Scotland that opposed the war in Iraq.
We now have a president in America who opposed the war in Iraq. Congratulations to Barack Obama and the American people.
Lets hope the people of Glenrothes get an MP who opposed the war in Iraq and congratulations will be due.
Brown and Bush are already sounding as out of date as Thatcher and Reagan.
A McG
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#69
No wants elitist groups like conservatives and nats.
It's time for people to unite under the policies of the left, only labour can, will
and have the vision to create the better world with the new American President.
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#70 derekbarker
I'm glad to see that the Americans have voted for individual liberty and freedom from the rich and the warmongers.
Most certainly not the cornerstones of Labour policy (the nanny state and dependency).
I hope the good people of Glenrothes agree for the sake of us all.
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Brian,
Labour are doomed not only in Glenrothes but in the GE. labour do not have any Westminster Policies for Scotland.
The Financial saviour tag is melting as it is attacked by all the other countries and the money experts9plus the Pound's drop)
Mr Roy showed what happens when they are asked for policies on reserved matters.
New Labour have killed off a great party.
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#61 derekbarker
"So the hidden polls are showing labour
on the march"
They're certainly pretty well hidden if the numbers are as you claim. How about giving us clue on where to find them?
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Typically unbalanced reporting in the main politics story in the Herald: Political battle fought in the shadow of world events.
No mention of why NuLab set polling day so that "for the most part it has been conducted in the shadow of other events and tomorrow voters will go to the polls barely noticed amid the worldwide attention on the US elections" and most of the the text devoted to Roy & co.
But there's an interesting "quote" from Angus Robertson: "'Labour think they are winning the air war,' he told me [Robbie Dinwoodie] a few days ago, referring to the way that by talking up the 'Brown bounce' and the involvement of the Prime Minister and his wife Sarah Labour were doing well on the airwaves and in the media generally. 'But it is the ground war that wins by-elections and I believe we are winning that.'"
All credit to Robertson if he really managed to put the unquoted bit that mildly, but I suspect a little bowdlerisation there.
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A fair headline in the Scotsman's SNP on a high as bookies cut odds and the article itself is reasonably balanced for a change.
They quote a "Labour insider" as saying: "We were miles behind five weeks ago but we have narrowed the gap. Whether we have narrowed the gap enough to win, we don't know."
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mmm my post has been referred .. but since its no worse than Dereks #68 i sense a bit of Labour bias. Derek did you complain about my post ???
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#62 Neil_Small147:
I agree there is no comparison between the US and Glenrothes elections. But the psychological effect of Obama's victory may yet have an impact. As Eck has said: ""This was a victory for optimism over pessimism, for hope over fear.".
Now try applying that statement to Glenrothes (or more generally to Scottish politics). Which of our parties would you associate "optimism" and "hope" with? And in contrast, which of our parties spring to mind when "pessimism" and "fear" are mentioned?
If the US sense of optimism and hope is at all contagious, then in my opinion the SNP will benefit at Labour's expense. Such are the rewards of positive and negative campaigning, respectively.
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"the snp on a high as bookies cut odds"
4/9 on....Hmmmmm????????
The snp get on a high at the sight of some flag waving.
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Standing at a crossroads in Main Street, Burlington, New Jersey, I was admiring what looked at first glance as if they might be neo-colonial buildings when I realized that, despite their polished appearance, there was nothing neo about them and that one of them had been the family home of the distinguished novelist James Fenimore Cooper, whose family was of old colonial stock and had substantial interests in a part of the country in which there still lived in his lifetime the remnants of an American population of even older stock, about which he wrote.
Of those who defined themselves as somehow more American or better Americans by virtue of being of colonial stock, Cooper once said that the essential difference between his forebears and more recent immigrants should be considered to consist in the following simple distinction: whereas his ancestors arrived in America in steerage aboard a ship with sails, the newer arrivals had crossed the Atlantic in steerage aboard ships powered by steam. They had a lot in common, in other words, and the passage of years should not obscure that fact.
The Obama victory shows Americans coming together to recognize what they have in common and to restore that community of identity and purpose at a time of crisis for America and the world. Although President Obama may not find it easy to live up to the expectations of those who have placed their trust in him, the very fact that he has been elected is a demonstration of the fact that the seemingly improbable can happen, not only in America but anywhere.
We shall now see if the successful and inspiring Democratic candidate in the US presidential election can inspire the voters of Scotland to recognize what they have in common as Scots and to restore a community of identity and purpose here. Will the electors of Glenrothes be inspired to see that the Labour Party, which has been in charge of the ailing UK economy for over a decade and which has presented them with an intimidatingly mediocre candidate in the Labour mould of mediocre candidates, can be swept aside to allow the kind of rejuvenation of Scotland that Obama promises for America?
That is, perhaps, too much to ask. On the other hand, however, we have just seen that the improbable can happen. It is by definition never probable that the improbable will happen, but, so far as the Glenrothes by-election is concerned, it has just possibly become less improbable today.
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Looks like "Little Miss Sunshine" doesn't share R-E's contempt for the usefulness of blogging if the Grauniad's British voters 'turned off' by media hype and cynical blogs is correct. It begins "Corrosive cynicism, fuelled by politically nihilistic blogs and a retreat from dispassionate reporting, is endangering British political discourse, Hazel Blears, the communities secretary, will tell a Hansard Society conference today on growing political disengagement in Britain."
Perhaps the most worrying para is her: "Until political blogging 'adds value' to our political culture, by allowing new voices, ideas and legitimate protest and challenge, and until the mainstream media reports politics in a calmer, more responsible manner, it will continue to fuel a culture of cynicism and despair".
Somehow I don't think she was talking about the unionist and generally pro-NuLab spin from the Grauniad, the BBC or even the cynicism we occasionally see on these threads. It certainly makes slightly more worrying the NuLab government plans to record all internet traffic - not that it's going to be easy to suppress until they have the storage to capture every keystroke.
Of course, the big ray of sunshine is their stunning track record of incompetence on IT projects generally and data storage in particular.
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#79 Anaxetogrind
"an intimidatingly mediocre candidate"
A beautifully crafted and accurate phrase.
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77. You could also describe Obama's win as a "Victory of logic and pragmatism over blind ideological dogma, of realism over spin and bombast and especially of internationalism over nationalism."
Regardless, the Weeble should continue with his bizarre obsession of trying to connect everything to Scottishness. He is certainly not doing himself any favours.
Salmond: "So it seems there's another Scot in the White House and that must be a good thing.""
Yeah, that's what people see when they look at a black Kenyan/American called Barack Hussein Obama.....A Scot!
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65. You genuinely predicted Obama to WIN?!
That's amazing! Only you and everyone else on the planet predicted that!
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"Little Miss Sunshine" pops up again in the Torygraph's Hazel Blears: Too many career politicians in government, which reports "The Communities Secretary wants action to encourage the election of a new generation of working class MPs such as Labour's Dennis Skinner and Tory David Davis" adding of course her own spell as a "local government solicitor".
Could she be setting out her stall for a leadership challenge to NuLab's No.1 career politician, "Duff" Gordon if things don't work out too well for him in Glenrothes tomorrow?
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#80 Big brother wants to record all traffic .... dont worry .. judging by the time it takes the mods on here to read our blogs and post them i think big brother would have staffing problems. Probably have to outsource the monitoring station to India so if we start writing in Doric or broad Scots they will be stuffed lol ... besides they will never have the capacity to log everything. They would probably lose the dongle in a pub carpark anyway and that would be the end !!!
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Re 39 brownedov
My point is not a party political one, It makes no difference who wins, we get more broken promises and excuses. It also makes little difference how the media report the fight.
Whoever wins and looses will spin the result, both Labour and SNP are equally adept at this odious practice, to suit their ends and the wishes of the electorate will be forgotten 10 mins after the result is announced.
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Can anybody take the weeble seriously,
to suggest that there will be a Scot in the
white house, honestly, the mans obsessed.
Or is he looking for a new friend with 100Bn to prop up his one and only bank and help stop the flak over his Icelandic position.
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#82.
Reluctant-Expat,
Hello there Mr. Grumpykins. You always seems to stamp your feet over every single issue.
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I'd suggest an Obama effect may well be seen in Glenrothes.
Salmond's response to the Obama victory that it is a "Victory for hope over fear, and optimism over pessimism" is a clear reference to the representation of the SNP (and independence) as positive politics of hope and optimism as compared to Labour (and unionism) negativity, fear and cringe.
Salmond has chosen his words carefully here. Not just a soundbite "congratulations" , but an inherent alignment of Obama to the SNP.
Here's to another vote for hope and optimism on Thursday!
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#31
Hello again RE, I'll post it again for your benefit:
#221 (Strict Neutrality Thread)
Hi again.
I answered that question when you asked it in the last thread (#159 #174, HBOS and the theory of moral sentiments threas), but you chose not to listen, perhaps because you didn't like the answer?
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sorry, thats RE #34 in response to #31
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#82 Reluctant-Expat
"Yeah, that's what people see when they look at a black Kenyan/American called Barack Hussein Obama.....A Scot!"
Hyperbole, I grant you, but which politician doesn't use it? Like most Americans (and me), Obama is a bit of a mongrel. The Scottish ancestry point was made long before he beat Mrs Clinton to the Democratic Party nomination.
There are plenty of sources on the web, but one of the more succinct is on the Rumor Mill, which says: "Whoever wins in the Democratic race will ultimately face McCain who, while not having as many famous relatives as Obama and Clinton, certainly has the right relationship to incumbent George W. Bush, as well as also a royal descent from William of Scotland. It would seem that this November would be a face-off between Obama and McCain, both of whom are related to the Bushes and both sharing a common descent from King William of Scotland."
The Welsh bit of me notes that he has some Welsh ancestry too via his mum's ancestor Jefferson Davis, the only President of the Confederate States of America. Not sure he's quite so proud of that bit, but there you go.
Out for the afternoon but I'll look back later in case you can put your OECD graphic in context.
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#87.
Derek, why 100 billion? I've never seen a source that insists 100 billion would be needed.
Could you perhaps provide the source for us all to read?
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#70 derek
Nats elitist and the equivalent of tories?
New labour has policies of the left?
You must practice the same kind of socialism as grandantidote on NR's blog if you think New labour still represents the left.
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An explosion has occurred in the poor suburbs of Paris following the result of the US presidential election, an explosion of joy, that is. The section of the population that had considered itself to be powerless, disempowered and, frankly, beyond the pale so far as socio-political acceptability is concerned came out onto the streets, as one does in France, to express their satisfaction with the result and to hold a little celebratory party, in the course of which it was repeatedly declared that "anything is now possible".
"Anything is now possible." Repeat that after me: "anything is now possible." If the excluded of France overnight begin to think of themselves as less excluded and on their way to being included, the implications for minorities everywhere should not be dismissed lightly.
Those in Scotland who feel excluded because their vision of Scotland as an independent country is derided by anglo-centric unionists who are now mocking them for daring to think that Scots might be inspired with self-confidence to take their destiny into their own hands now should pay some attention to what is happening elsewhere in the world. The world is changing. If an Afro-American can become president of the United States, a prime minister of an independent Scotland should not be so diffcult to envisage as a realistic and indeed desirable prospect.
Diehard Labour supporters have no reason to be confident that Labour will hold on to Glenrothes on Thursday. A week is a long time in politics. So are a couple of days.
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#85 rabbiehippo
Point taken - I think it's mainly bluster and spin from control freaks who recognise that they can't quite intimidate all of the media.
#86 northhighlander
"My point is not a party political one, It makes no difference who wins, we get more broken promises and excuses. It also makes little difference how the media report the fight."
I don't deny it, and don't claim that there is such a thing as an "honest politician" rather believing that some are less dishonest than others.
Where we differ is on the attitudes of the media themselves. Any home rule victory or unionist defeat will simply not receive as much media coverage as a unionist victory or a home rule defeat.
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88. You really don't see any symptoms of delusion or insanity in Salmond?
No hint of an element of a relentless and obsessed pursuit of a place in history at any cost?
Hopefully, his ridiculous comments about Barack Hussein Obama being Scottish will make the international media (and the BBC - the world's most popular news website - is a very good start!), with the subsequent humiliation tipping him over the edge and out of power.
Scotland deserves the best and this fruitbat is most certainly not the man for the job.
To be totally honest, it's starting to get scary.
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#94 ScotInNotts
I would have thought the clue was in the name "scottish NATIONAL party"
Not a rare breed, Belgium, Northern Spain,
Norway to name a few also have nationalist elements in their political structures.
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97-Expat
I'm sure it is being reported that it was the self same Barack Hussein Obama who pointed out his Scottish ancestry in a letter to Mr Salmond, in support of Tartan Week.
So it would seem not unreasonable for Mr Salmond, somewhat tongue in cheek if you care to take your blinkers off, to subsequently refer to him as a Scot.
If that is the last straw you have to clutch at in your hope to unseat the First Minister of Scotland then it really is desperation time for the Unionist argument, and Independence for Scotland may be closer than I had hoped.
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#97.
President Obama has also spoke about his Scottish ancestory. Your comments are becoming ever more desperate. I guess you are one of those hippies who dislike Donald Trump claiming Scottishness too?
I never knew 'Scottish' (I highly doubt you are) Unionists to be critical of people claiming Scottish ancestory or anything Scottish for that matter.
By the way Scotland does deserve the best. Just who would you say is the best person to lead Scotland?
I like Alex Salmond because unlike the other Scottish Parties, Alex Salmond can represent Scotland and not worry about their leaders south of the border.
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#82 Reluctant-Expat
"Yeah, that's what people see when they look at a black Kenyan/American called Barack Hussein Obama.....A Scot!"
Just looked in before a meeting and I see my #92 has been referred to the mods - perhaps because of link problems, so I'll repeat it without the link.
Hyperbole, I grant you, but which politician doesn't use it? Like most Americans (and me), Obama is a bit of a mongrel. The Scottish ancestry point was made long before he beat Clinton to the Democratic Party nomination.
There are plenty of sources on the web, but one of the more succinct is on the Rumor Mill's "The Merovingian ancestry of the 2008 candidates" which says: "Whoever wins in the Democratic race will ultimately face McCain who, while not having as many famous relatives as Obama and Clinton, certainly has the right relationship to incumbent George W. Bush, as well as also a royal descent from William of Scotland. It would seem that this November would be a face-off between Obama and McCain, both of whom are related to the Bushes and both sharing a common descent from King William of Scotland."
The Welsh bit of me notes that he has some Welsh ancestry too via his mum's ancestor Jefferson Davis, the only President of the Confederate States of America. Not sure he's quite so proud of that bit, but there you go.
Away now but I'll look back later in case you can put your OECD graphic in context.
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#97
"Symptoms of delusion ... a relentless and obsessive pursuit ... ridiculous comments ... with the subsequent humiliation ..."
Sounds like you've just described yourself to a T!
If you actually believe that Scotland deserves the best, it is quite sad that you have no vision of the rich talent and potential we have to succeed on our own terms - as opposed to being wholly enthralled to the dubious and disdainful interests and patronage of the distant government of our neighbouring country.
So far you have only failed to demonstrate, even once, that you in any way share the values of a successful Scotland - one with which its citizens can associate themselves with pride - as opposed to monotonously decrying the one party committed to building that new Scotland.
Still, each to his own.
You stick to churning out the old dirges of failed unionist dependency, and the more positive and free-thinking amongst us can embrace the vision and of our country's developing renaissance being advanced in no small way by snowballing support for the SNP.
Alba gu Brath!
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100. Oh, it was "tongue in cheek", was it?
Was this also "tongue in cheek":
"The First Minister said 12 US presidents had been of Scottish descent."
As for any sign of desperation, time for another quick rundown on this latest of independence campaigns:
- SNP down in consecutive polls.
- Support for independence down in consecutive polls.
- The SNP's heavily-publicised taxpayer-funded National Conversation barely managing one solitary post a day.
- Salmond's economic credibility (his primary strength...apparently) is now a fraction of Brown's.
- Nobel Prize winners backing Brown....while Salmond has only got a local radio journo and the man that broke RBS in his corner.
- Salmond's first 'arc of prosperity' lasted a month before it fell apart (one country is now bankrupt, another was reliant on EU subsidies for 40 years and was still the first into recession, plus there's Norway running 5% deficits every year while being heavily subsidised by oil).
- His second arc was clearly nonsense as soon as he said it (Norway again plus economies of Sweden/Finland/Denmark have all grown slower than the UK)
- OECD reports that the UK economy has grown more over the past 20 years than [deep breath] Sweden, Finland, Denmark, Germany, Netherlands, Belgium, Portugal, France, Italy, Switzerland and Austria....ie. almost all of unsubsidised Europe.
You're absolutely right, of course. It is those of us who are against independence that are "desperate".
It's suddenly become quite clear.
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The people of Glenrothes have an opportunity to deliver a message to the the UK. Let them for the rest of us put the money where our mouths are so to speak. This country has a population of circa 5m, I'm sure there is pretty more life left in this country to secure our futures, small is beautiful. It will be the rest of this dis-united kingdom that will suffer from us looking after our own. I'm so convinced of it that we will have to erect border controls to defend a better way of life on our side.
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101. Well, you are wrong again. Your solitary example of consistency.
Obama's most recent link to Scotland is an immigrant who arrived in the US in the 1600's. How many generations is that? How many other nationalities is he descended from? How English is he?
I find this constant harping of 'Scottishness' by nationalists and their constant need for any form of recognition or validation, to be embarrassing.
I consider the endless nationalist claims of multiple international conspiracies against Scotland, or Scottish nationalism, to be embarrassing.
I consider the repeated publicity stunts by Salmond and co. for the return of some Scandinavian originated chess set or MQoS's remains or entire border towns to be embarrassing.
I especially consider Salmond's constant grasping for more money from Westminster under the plainly false guise that it's somehow "Scottish money" to be humiliating for my country. He is single-handedly enforcing the stereotype of Scots being money-grabbing beggars, which drives me up the [------] wall.
On the other hand, I find you nationalists' endless claims of oppression and theft wonderfully hilarious.
Oh, born/bred in Edinburgh, greatest city in the world. Thanks very much.
(Still on sick leave, are we?)
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#95 frankly_francophone
Good point, but I haven't heard of celebrations in the French controlled parts of the Basque country or Catalonia yet.
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#83 Reluctant Expat says:
65. You genuinely predicted Obama to WIN?!
That's amazing! Only you and everyone else on the planet predicted that!
Not twelve months ago they didn't and 24 months ago I predicted he would be on the Democratic ticket but not even I dared to think as Presidential candidate, I thought then he would have to settle for Hillary's VP.
But the main part of my prediction now is the huge affect his win will have on the electorate of Glenrothes and the SNP workers on the ground.
The Obama factor will win this for the SNP.
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102. Another example of a nationalist in desperate and constant need of validation.
For crying out loud, you are claiming a Scottish link to a Kenyan-American called Barack Hussein Obama based on a reported descendancy from a 12th century king!
He's a closer relative to George W. Bush!
(And all these claims that Scotland has been "held back by the union", when it turns out that no other comparable country has done any better without massive subsidies.
Is there a single nationalist claim that is actually true?)
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#104.
Reluctant-Expat.
"Salmond's first 'arc of prosperity' lasted a month before it fell apart (one country is now bankrupt, another was reliant on EU subsidies for 40 years and was still the first into recession, plus there's Norway running 5% deficits every year while being heavily subsidised by oil)."
Typical Unionist. 90 percent of The Republic of Ireland's export economy relied on the British market. Britain made sure the Republic of Ireland was punished when the troubles flared between these two states. How come you never mentioned this? Britain was responsible for destroying the Republic's economy decades ago, hence why they relied on European assitance to recover.
If you want to debate at least tell the whole truth rather then part of the truth.
But I am not suprised to see links providing your evidence as usual. It's all more opinion then fact when it comes from you.
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104 - Expat
Ah well you've got me there. Where do I sign up for the Cringe party?
You quote polls, covering a "relatively" positive period for Labour, based on post conference media spin, which has lasted around 6 weeks and will likely end tomorrow.
How about longer term trend in polls -how does that look?
You quote media spin, again from the last month, where Brown is being set up for a fall as the saviour of the world. Do you really believe that mantle will stick in the long term, or even as far as next month?
You quote long out of date reports from the OECD about Britains growth.
How did Scotland grow, in relation to Britain during those years I wonder?
You may also want to consider more recent reports, that the UK will have a longer and deeper recession than comparable EU economies, and will drag back continued growth in the rest of the EU.
Can this be so in Brown's wonderfully managed UK economy? The UK economy that is best placed to weather the coming "global" recession?
I've news for you Expat. It's a myth. A bubble.
The UK growth of the last 20 years you refer to has little to do with growth and lots to do with credit. That bubble is now burst - you may be wise to stop quoting from it in support of super chancellor Brown, saviour of the world.
That is a myth also. Another bubble about to burst.
(Cue response about Salmond being the only thing around here liable to burst.)
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#106.
Reluctant-Expat.
"I find this constant harping of 'Scottishness' by nationalists and their constant need for any form of recognition or validation, to be embarrassing."
President Obama must be really embarressed by bringing up his Scottish ancestory then!
"I consider the endless nationalist claims of multiple international conspiracies against Scotland, or Scottish nationalism, to be embarrassing."
I see , such as UK-Governments using MI5 agents to infiltrate the Scottish National Party and undermining the Pro-Independence Movement? Oh wait, that did happen! Thanks for the Freedom of Information Act eh?
"I especially consider Salmond's constant grasping for more money from Westminster under the plainly false guise that it's somehow "Scottish money" to be humiliating for my country."
I am with you one hundred percent. I found Alex Salmond incredibly embarressing when he claimed the 470 million pounds from a council tax benefit. However did the Scottish Parliament not vote in favour that this money was apart of the Scottish Grant! Did the Scottish Parliament not vote in favour that lottery money should be re-diverted back into Scotland, more specifically for the Commonwealth Games?
Notice how I used the worlds 'Scottish Parliament? It appears the Tories, Lib Dems, Greens and the Independents are supporting the Scottish National Party that money should be returned to Scotland!
Typical Unionist. Their arguements are always half baked.
At least you have demonstrated yourself to be a Labour supporter quite clearly.They are the only party who does not support what everyone else says about money returning to Scotland.
You, along with Labour, are even making the Conservatives appear Pro-Scotland.
David Cameron: "Yes, Scotland can stand her own two foot. But we still want you Scotland, in the Union your achievements will be greater".
Gordon Brown: "The rescue of several Scottish Banks have demonstrated that Scotland can not survive Independent. I know, I know that I put in the regulation that allowed these banks to fail but allow me to fix the problem."
The next two generations will be paying for Brown's method of 'fixing' what he broke.
Rule Britannia!!
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#109.
Reluctant-Expat.
"For crying out loud, you are claiming a Scottish link to a Kenyan-American called Barack Hussein Obama based on a reported descendancy from a 12th century king!"
Is that suppose to make President Obama less Scottish?
Tell me, do you believe those who leave Scotland to places such as America, New Zealand etc are no longer Scottish after several generations? I am proud that millions consider themselves part Scottish all over the world. It only you who appears to be disgusted that President Obama claims a Scottish ancestory. Why can't you be proud that President Obama has highlighted his Scottishness?
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110. Would someone like to give Master Porter a lesson in Irish history as it actually happened (eg. the build-up to the 1930s Trade War, Irish protectionism, industrial interventionist policies, economic emigration, the oil crises, consecutive destructive fiscal policies, the impact of European free trade on an uncompetitive economy...)?
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112. "At least you have demonstrated yourself to be a Labour supporter quite clearly."
Bam! And he hits another one clean out of the ground!
Anti-SNP = Labour?
LOL!
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113. "Tell me, do you believe those who leave Scotland to places such as America, New Zealand etc are no longer Scottish after several generations?"
You do know there aren't really a handful of immortal highlanders wondering around the world, don't you?
You are truly surpassing yourself today. This is superb.
Pray, continue!
Staying with this polite response from Obama to a Tartan Day invitation Salmond sent to everyone, what % of the President-elect do you think is actually Scottish and worth even a mention, let alone all this fuss from the nationalists?
I remind you that his last link to Scotland is through a man who emigrated to the US in the 1600s.
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#98 derek
I'm sorry but you'll have to explain that one.
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TP asks:
"Tell me, do you believe those who leave Scotland to places such as America, New Zealand etc are no longer Scottish after several generations?"
They're not Scottish. How could they be, if they don't live in Scotland?
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#111 dear_wendy
here's the figures for how Scotland fared in comparison to the UK and European countries similar to Scotland, which I posted before in the HBOS and the theory of moral sentiments thread.
Latest GDP trends:
http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Topics/Statistics/Browse/Economy/TrendLatestGDP
Scotland UK GDP comparison:
http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Topics/Statistics/Browse/Economy/TrendLongerGDP
Scotland EU GDP comparison:
http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Topics/Statistics/Browse/Economy/TrendGDPEU
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Reluctant-Expat:
"Staying with this polite response from Obama to a Tartan Day invitation Salmond sent to everyone, what % of the President-elect do you think is actually Scottish and worth even a mention, let alone all this fuss from the nationalists?"
My, I was waiting for you to bring something like this up. Perhaps I was wrong about assuming you supporter Labour, are you apart of the BNP?
Have we now witnessed Expat attempting to define Scottishness through how much 'Scottishness' is in you? Because President Obama has a little bit of many nationalities apart of him that, for some reason, stops President Obama from being Scottish...
Alex Salmond openly accepts President Obama claiming Scottish acestory... You have a problem though...
I was highly amused that you said, "...born/bred in Edinburgh" when I questioned if you were Scottish or not. Well Expat, blood is thicker then water. If President Obama has ancient Scottish ancestors then in his blood he is as much Scottish as you and I.
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#109 Reluctant-Expat
"Another example of a nationalist in desperate and constant need of validation."
Well I'd love a bit of validation of many of your claims, but yet again you show your utter determination to find nothing good in anything Scots or Scottish. In this case I'm frankly surprised you're showing even more ineptitude that usual. My #102 even agreed that it was hyperbole, for heavens sake.
Americans may all love the stars and stripes but they love equally their "quaint" old origins. As a results they have Tartan Weeks and St Patrick's Day parades and I've actually been to an Oktoberfest on the great lakes celebrating beery roots in the Austrian Empire. As a result, all US politicians wrap themselves in the flag but they also join in the fun of such celebrations and claim often very tenuous links. In this, Obama is no different to the rest.
Why not email his campaign team and see if you can get them to issue a denial of any connection to a poor, wee, pretendy country like Scotland? Do let us know the result.
#114 Reluctant-Expat
You might have added that the 1921 treaty was at least 30 years too late and that the division of the island on Westmidden's terms didn't actually help to restore "normal" relations.
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#112 Thomas_Porter
"You, along with Labour, are even making the Conservatives appear Pro-Scotland."
Judging by R-E's #115, I think you may have touched a nerve there.
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#118.
Anaxim.
"They're not Scottish. How could they be, if they don't live in Scotland?"
Is that how you define nationality? Simply where you live...?
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119. Re, the third graph, notice the countries chosen for the comparison: Austria, Denmark, Finland, Ireland, Luxembourg, Portugal, and Sweden.
As we know, Ireland has been receiving multi-billion subsidies from the EU for nearly 40 years, totalling around 60% of their current GDP.
Iceland, on Salmond's first 'arc of prosperity' until it went bankrupt, was suddenly declared "too small to be relevant" by Salmond. However, tiny Luxembourg is curiously still okay.
Of that entire list, these two economies are the ONLY ones on the list to have been more successful than the UK over the last decades.
Also notice there is no Netherlands or Belgium in the list. This may have something to do with them not growing as much as the UK in the past 20 years and would therefore wipe out much of the graph's 'gap'.
Nationalists are so desperate to portray Scotland as useless, they will even generate biased graphs based on convenient clustering of preferred factors to do it.
Pathetic.
How about a nationalist compiling another graph comparing Scotland and the UK to those European countries that aren't heavily subsidised by the EU and actually have a population similar to Scotland's and not just Edinburgh?
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120/121. Superb!
Make sure you tell everyone you meet in the street what you have posted on these boards today.
Promise me you will do that.
"Barack Hussein Obama, the black Kenyan-American is Scottish! He really, really is! He's descended from William the Lion! I'm super-super-serious!"
Jeez, don't you two ever wonder why no-one takes you seriously?
Brownedov, this bit:
"but yet again you show your utter determination to find nothing good in anything Scots or Scottish."
Well, that's just silly nonsense, isn't it. You must see that. You surely must.
You know full well that I find nothing good in nationalists, Scotland is just fine.
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TP asks:
"Is that how you define nationality? Simply where you live...?"
Yes. It's the most popular definition of nationality in Scotland.
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Reluctant-Expat.
#125.
"You know full well that I find nothing good in nationalists..."
Is that with your BNP-style attitude? The Scottish National Party and her supporters are far more open minded over issues such as defining someone Scottish.
Imagine that... Scottish Nationalists welcoming those who come from different backgrounds who want to consider themselves Scottish...
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Anaxim.
#126.
I don't believe that definition is entirely perfect. If I move elsewhere I would loose my Scottish identity, Reluctant-Expat, who I believe does not live in Scotland would loose his identity. Is this fair?
Reluctant-Expat defined his nationality because they were born and brought up in Edinburgh.
I am not one hundred percent sure if you are correct that the most popular definition of nationality is through where you live. But I am sure we will both agree that there is more to it then simply where you live.
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#124 RE
If you read the source you would see an explanation as to what and why the particular small EU countries were chosen.
Notice there was no Iceland, although you mentioned it. If only AS had had the insider knowledge GB had since March that Iceland was in dire straits.
You continuously and erroneously refer to the UK's GDP as opposed to Scotland's GDP, which is what we're interested in. You do not comment on those statistics, which clearly show Scotland's GDP behind that of the UK as a whole. Is that the economic benefit of the union you refer to?
I'll leave it to others who choose to read the links I posted to draw their own conclusions, without your biased and bitter anti-nationalist stance. It's for those to decide whether government statistics or your opinions have more credibility.
As for nationalists being "desperate to portray Scotland as useless", again I'll leave it to those who read these blogs to decide which party uses the tactics of fear and negativity, and that which has a positive frame of mind and acts for the future of our great nation.
If anything at least you keep the blog interesting with your posts for all to enjoy.
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126. There was one nationalist on here who claimed you are 'Scottish' if you have ever lived or worked in Scotland, or if you are related or married to someone who has lived or worked in Scotland.
However, even if you were born and brought up in Scotland to Scottish parents, you are not at all 'Scottish' if you are merely against independence.
They're all idiots.
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#125 Reluctant-Expat
Back to childish insults are we? From your #82 onwards you seem to have been obsessed with the idea that Salmond should presume to congratulate Obama, as almost every head of national or state government on the planet will have done. Kenya is apparently having a national holiday over it! Yet you berate Salmond for having mentioned the Scottish ancestry Obama himself mentioned in a recent communication.
A little OTT, perhaps, but what would you have said, in Salmond's place?
Re your utter determination to find nothing good in anything Scots or Scottish, you say "Well, that's just silly nonsense, isn't it. You must see that. You surely must."
Afraid not.I must be too stupid to see that, and I have looked at most of your comments. When did you last say anything positive about Scots or Scotland?
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Fellow expats, and in fact anyone who doesn't have regular access to STV might be interest to know that, as for Glasgow East, STV will be streaming their by-election special from 22:39 GMT Thursday on their Glenrothes by-election page.
As far as I can work out from the schedules, the BBC are only fully covering it on Radio Scotland which is streamed for expats too, but there adoesn't seem to be any special TV coverage.
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R E It's like arguing with a brick wall,
you would think some of the nats, would understand the very clear points you make.
Jezz, they got two hope's
BoB and No
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#131
Brownedov, your obviously not reading the post then?
In RE's 97 post he clearly state's "Scotland deserves better"
Just off the cuff remarks again Brownedov
You know everyone meets their maker at some point?
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#130 Reluctant-Expat
Fair point for a change, but what would be your suggestion for who should get to vote if / when there's a referendum?
I pointed out some threads ago that there was some anomaly between the treatment of expats. If you're outwith the UK you have some rights to be on an electoral roll. If you're outwith Scotland but not the UK, you currently have the right only to be on the electoral roll for the nation you're in.
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Reluctant-Expat.
#130.
There is no discussion between Scottish Nationalists and Unionists about what defines a Scot.
I am trying to understand why you are against Obama simply for mentioning they are partly Scottish.
And then it came... "How much of Obama do you believe will be Scottish?" I take it you do not believe that migrants who have came to Scotland will ever be Scottish then?
I remember well the reason why you dislike the SNP. Your answer was that you seen the SNP as a racist force who have created factions in Scotland...
But you have now created two groups. True Scots who have lived in Scotland for centuries and have never mixed with any other nationality, and the wannabe Scots who came to Scotland for a better life and have settled here.
Typical BNP attitude...
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
As today is a non-political posting day (see my latest comment on the new thread), why not share your views on how the electorate for any referendum should be chosen, as requested in my #135?
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