Taxpayer should take note of bail-out
That it should come to this. That Scotland's largest bank, indeed one of the world's largest banks, should require to be bailed out by the taxpayer.
Quite frequently, politics can seem remote, obscure even. That is certainly not the case with today's decisions announced by the chancellor and the prime minister in respect of the Royal Bank of Scotland and other banks.
I suspect that viewers, listeners and readers will have paid particular attention to the impact of these decisions. They affect us here in Scotland, as savers, borrowers and of course taxpayers. They affect Scotland's economy and Scotland's image.
You will hear a range of analysis with regard to Royal Bank of Scotland. You will hear arguments that the bank remains fundamentally sound and profitable. You will also hear however, suggestions that Royal Bank of Scotland overreached itself, particularly with regard to the takeover of the Dutch concern ABN Amro.
The chancellor, Alistair Darling, dealt upon the latter point this morning when offering an explanation of the necessity to intervene. However, he also stressed that the objective was to maintain a strong British banking system.
The chancellor made two fundamental points: that the UK Government was leading with a model of rescue which others would follow; and that, within the British isles, only the UK Government had the clout and cash to rescue RBS. This was of course an implied criticism of the SNP with their programme of independence.
With regard to HBOS, it would appear that the takeover by Lloyds TSB is a done deal.
It would appear that the insipient muttering last week to the effect that HBOS need not be taken over is unlikely to come to much. Certainly, the rescue package is predicted upon the merger going ahead.
I'm 
~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~25~RS~)
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I would cordially invite any nationalist blogger to try and spin their way out of that one.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
The RBS bail-out is unexceptionable.
The continuing Lloyds TSB takeover of HBOS is now unecessary and strikes of spite to make the financial unravelling to achieve fiscal autonomy more difficult.
Should play well against NuLab in Glenrothes.
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Yes Brian as you say ‘that it should come to this’. Although the chancellor may imply criticism of the SNP with their programme of independence, at least if we had been independent we would have been able to act earlier instead of hanging around while Brown and Darling huffed and puffed. We would also have had an oil fund to help us through a difficult time. The heads of RBS and HBOS will roll in this debacle, and rightly so but once the dust has settled Gordon Brown the man whose 11 year stewardship of the economy, profligate spending and off-balance sheet PPP & PFI chicanery has left us in such a sorry state should face his own tribunal. He maybe posing as saviour of the world but in my book he is equally guilty
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And what of the future? Next time there is the option to overreach which bank will err on the side of caution? Without a true purge of the banks there will be no lessons learned and the essential change of banking culture will not take place. Surely much better to let them go to the wall, guarantee all savings to 35k and to hell with the investors. Talking about restoring confidence in banks is pointless - who can have confidence in banks after the debacle of the last five years?
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Credit where it's due (no pun intended!), Brown and Darling appear to have finally steadied the ship, although for how long only time will tell. I'm no economist but I can't shake the feeling that they should have seen this coming. Labour have had a decade in office after all. Their collective Damascene conversion to a more tightly regulated financial sector has come a bit late in the day for a great many people I fear.
Could an independent Scotland have rescued RBS? Perhaps not, although of course it's impossible to know for sure. I suspect that won't stop endless speculation on this thread though! More important than arguing how many Scottish angels can dance on an independent pinhead, I do hope that a future independent Scotland will have the good sense not to overstretch itself as Iceland has done.
Speaking of Iceland it alarms me somewhat that they have been forced into the arms of Russia for financial assistance. I seem to remember Iceland was of great strategic importance during the Cold War, guarding as it does the North Atlantic. Rather than bashing Iceland how about a bit of realpolitik from the EU?
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It is an utter disgrace that Lloyds TSB is being "allowed" to takeover HBOS - during the Lloyds TSB - HBOS Investor Presentation on 18 September, Andy Hornby of HBOS stated "....Eric (Daniels) and I have spoken over the years and always saw this (the Lloyds TSB/HBOS merger) as a very, very powerful combination"
So what occurred over the last 12 months or so to cause HBOS shares to drop from about 12 pounds to the 88 pence on 18 September - and then global market turmoil "enables"Lloyds to strike - with the backing of Gordon Brown?.
With all this government money being thrown at the banks - this deal should be called off
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The best thing about the bailout is that the top men in the banks have been kicked out on their fat backsides. Pity about the loot they will take. The worst thing is that they have not been charged, yet.
Scotland's reputation for financial probity has been dragged through the mud.
Opportunists here will twist things to blame successive governments, chiefly Brown, but the truth is that people we expected to be above reproach in their dealings were no better than drunks in a casino.
If the regulation was lax, they knew it and drove a coach and horses through it. I mean. leaving your door unlocked does not excuse the criminal who takes advantage.
But please, can we save the recriminations until we are out of the woods?
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So you mean to say that Labour engineered a banking collapse to gallop in and save the day and claim that Scotland can't do the same?
Brian to Brian, I like your thinking!
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The time to count the cost of a landslide is when the rocks have stopped moving. They haven't, yet. So I don't think there's much point in commenting on the fates of specific institutions. To lose the Bank of Scotland - a bank established by our Parliament in the days when it still had sovereign power - will be sad, but it may be inevitable; sic transit gloria mundi.
What we're losing a grip of, in this concentration on the fates of institutions however vulnerable, is the map of the intellectual battlefield; the terms of the debate.
In responding to Brian's last blog, Bean counting on a political scale, unionists once more rolled out the claim that Scotland is a 'small' country, and nationalists failed to effectively challenge that.
It isn't true. It never was true, and it isn't true now. Scotland is an average country. The median population of all the countries in the world is 5,299,000. Scotland has 5,100,000.
110 independent countries in the world have populations smaller than Scotland; and there are one hundred and eleven which have larger.
Similarly on land area. Scotland isn't small. It isn't big. It's average. Mid-table respectability. And this is a point that as Nationalists we must not forget, because in accepting the canard that Scotland is 'small' we lay ourselves open to the claim that Scotland is 'too' small (for whatever it is the unionists are currently banging on about).
The other canard which is implicit in this debate is that we're 'too' poor. Well, Scotland's GDP per capita, at least according to the Office for National Statistics, less than the UK as a whole. A whole 3.6% less. That compares to the roughly 3% that the UK is poorer than Germany, Finland or Japan, or the roughly 12% that the UK is poorer than Ireland.
In other words, yes, we're poorer. A little. Not enough to sweat over. We may well still be 3% poorer when we're out of the union, but we're 3% poorer now, when we're still in the union, so that's hardly a great argument for unionism, is it?
There are lots of reasons - higher ratio of natural resources to population, for a start - why an independent Scotland might be richer. There are lots of reasons - not having such a well developed financial sector - why we might be poorer. But these are imponderable. We don't know. The probability is that things wouldn't be much different.
So the question is, why should an average sized country which is, by any way you care to measure it, among the 10% richest countries in the world, not be independent? Phrase the question like that, and the unionist arguments start to wither.
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So Brown's old chums are coming round with the begging bowl. Bet Goodwin & Co's savings and pensions are guarenteed.
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So what happens should Independence become a reality..... we have some 'scottish' banks that have been rescued by British funding. But then you have to remember that RBOS is involved with a lot of important PPI/PFI's that would go splat without the banks help.
I would imagine that any help that the government gives will be backed up by conditions that the banks dont sell off the PFI/\PPP contracts to other businesses.This has happened before where the preferred bidder has done a bit of work ... made lots of money .... then bu**ered off out of the contract.
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Brian
I understand that the deal with HBOS must go to the shareholders before it can be done - according to our papers anyway. I suspect Llyods are the same.
Very much doubt, if an independent Scotland would have permitted the banking system to get into such a mess - it would've been better regulated! I hope.
Why this assault on Scottish banks in the first place from the financial sector? What on earth were the ineffective FSA doing apart from nothing?
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I notice the SNP is now asking for some OLD BONES to be returned from Westminster Abbey. The wheels are coming off the SNP financial strategy so its back to Tartan Shortbread Tin politics.
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#4 raisethegame
Well said, but I fear attention spans are very short and the positive media spin will provide Brown with a little more time before Murdoch & Co. decide they've had enough.
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Anyone interested in reading the perfectly inoffensive and not in the least improper although blatantly disloyal comments at #2 of this thread should turn to #232 of the previous thread.
It makes one wonder who this Anglophone can be, if such a post is not to be allowed to appear right after his.
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#5 t_mike
I agree with much of what you say, and certainly think bank management and shareholders should receive nothing, but to allow any depositors to lose out would taint UK banking for a generation unless it happens worldwide, which seems most unlikely.
That stigma would taint any successor states whether the UK remains a unitary state, federates or goes the way of Yugoslavia.
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The UK (as opposed to the European) Unionists should note that the Brown/Darling adoption of the Swedish bail-out model had no effect whatsoever on the world markets until the Eurozone adopted the Swedish model yesterday, and the US a similar model this morning.
When will you abandon your post-imperial fantasies of being a "world player"?
Give up your childish obsession with your pretendy wee Parliament at Westminster (other than for running English domestic affairs) and embrace Europe.
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I've never been a great fan of bankers. I tend to put them in the same catagory as taxmen and insurance agents; all a bunch of thieves. However I know that in this capitalistic system which we all need to survive in we need them; as we do taxmen, insurance agents and thieves.
I have to accept that these banks need the liquidity that our hard earned taxes are going to have to be misused to prop them up. It sticks in my throat that are about to walk away with billions of pounds of our money when they avoided paying paying taxes during the good times.
It's the little men at the bottom who are, once again, going to have to suffer for their incompetence and greed. And what is 'Brian' saying about all this. Political point scoring as the bankers walk away with their golden parachutes.
Stop the world, I want to get off.
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#6 forfar-loon
Thoughful and constructive - saved me a post.
#8 brigadierjohn
I agree with most of your post except the final sentence: "But please, can we save the recriminations until we are out of the woods?" Trouble is that the current lot seem very slow learners and easily won over by the types you rightly blame.
First, can we be sure they've learned the lesson when they have done little or nothing to punish the greedy managers and their shareholders?
Second, is it not important to punish them and the failed regulators to encourage their successors to start actually being "prudent" with public money instead of just bragging of so doing?
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#6 Could Iceland become the next Cuba ? but without the nice warm beaches.
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So now we'll have a government part owned bank continuing to dish out 125% mortgages to all and sundry. This would be the time to regulate the mortgage market by law if the government had the courage to do it. 15% deposit required, and only 3 times salary allowed as it used to be. This would reduce the risk and the cost of housing at a stroke. At the same time it would get rid of a lot of estate agents, developers lawyers and speculators who drove the prices up in the first place.
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Brown and his so-called Chancellor amuse me with their, "This is a global matter". It was under the stewardship of Brown that all this nonsense took place. It is impossible to forget that all of this Free market began with Thatcher and Reagan. All Brown did was to take the baton and run on with it and take it to new heights of folly.
The UK has the highest rate of personal debt in the western world. Live now pay later and greed is good has been the motto of all governments since Thatcher.
Brown actually encouraged the Buy to Let bubble. Bradford and Bingley and HBOS were still happily lending money to all those clowns who saw themselves as property tycoons, right up until they neared collapse, did they not see the brick wall?
We need to get back to some form of credit control so that ordinary punters (remember them?) cannot become drawn into unserviceable debt. Nanny state? You betcha, someone has to count the pennies.
Brown seems to be setting a high tone for his speeches no doubt with one eye on the forthcoming bye-election. No matter how he sets his tone, it was he and Blair who got the UK into this mess, can he get us out? NO, I very much doubt it. I hear nothing of a back up plan should all this splurging of tax-payers money fail. Be afraid children, be VERY afraid.
I was disgusted at the sight of Sir Philip Green slithering around like some greedy maggot, trying to pick off Iceland's failing companies. Brown allows this man and men like him to syphon off high street profits and spirit them to off-shore accounts. Whilst sacking HBOS and RBS directors, how about hammering these so-called entrepreneurs? The phrase, "squeeze until the pip squeaks" comes to mind.
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# 14. uk_abz_scot
Of course the financial strategy of the rest of the UK is just lovely and what have you got against shortbread?
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#16 Anglosaxophone
Anyone can refer a comment. Whether it's removed or not WILL depend on the mods, but let's wait and see. Yah boo referral campaigns have happened before but are eventually tired of.
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#18 Oldnat - interesting interpretation.
However, the Financial times has different take on it.
See yesterday's edition - "Financial crisis: Europe prepares to follow British bail-out plan"
It does seem to suggest the UK is leading the charge.
Plus - you say "that the Brown/Darling adoption of the Swedish bail-out model had no effect whatsoever on the world markets until the Eurozone adopted the Swedish model yesterday, and the US a similar model this morning."
Considering it was the weekend and there was little trading done yesterday save in Asian markets how do you draw that conclusion?
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#22 kaybraes
We'll have to wait and see what, if any, new regulation is put in place but I certainly share your fear.
You're going a little far on the limits you propose. I remember getting a 4x salary 95% mortgage with a small BS in the '70s and although initially a struggle it was not an unreasonable burden on me or risk to them.
Much more than that would be imprudent by both the borrower and the regulator.
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That it should come to this. That Scotland's largest bank, indeed one of the world's largest banks, should require to be bailed out by the taxpayer.
Dear Brian,
You forgot to insert the letters 'UK' before taxpayer. The uncomfortable truth for all nationalists is that there was no way that Scotland could have rescued HBOS or RBS. What is most extraordinary about this situation is that we have a First Minister who is an economist with experience in the banking sector. Only a few weeks ago he was saying that HBOS and RBS were strong enough to survive this fiasco. Salmond may be a good political strategist and be able to crank up the populist volume control but when it comes to sound fiscal policy he seems not to have a clue. The suspicion is that unlike Darling, Osbourne and Cable who, at least seemed to have some insight into what was occurring he does not have intellectual flexibility to deal with a crisis when it occurs. It is most disingenuous of Nationalists to suggest that somehow and independent Scotland would have seen this coming and it would have been prevented and I suspect that it is no accident that the two institutions who have abused the system most happen to be based in Scotland and run by close associates of the First Minister.
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Anglosaxophone, maybe you would prefer to return to the rest of your age-group on the Herald website.
Saying that and having read the posts above, maybe you could take the other nationalists with you so this board can finally go back to the more informed, objective and, above all, mature debate of old.
The endless immature and farcical claims emanating from the nationalist element have long sapped my will to participate as I once did.
This latest independence campaign is no more.
Kindly return to your classrooms.
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I note that from Angela Merkel's press conference that the EU has arranged summits with Canada this week, and the Asian countries at the end of the month to sort out international financing rules based on
1. enhanced regulatory role for the IMF
2. beefed up Basel II rules on capitalisation based on the risks involved in lending
3. improving the financial rating companies (who have to carry a significant share of the blame)
4. increased transparency
One difference between the Eurozone action compared with the UK, is that bonuses for European banks are being severely restricted, unlike the UK!
The EU (like everyone else) has been slow in establishing the required regulatory system but at least they have the clout to push change in the world.
We need to get into the Euro sooner than later.
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#23 crazyislander
Largely very true, and especially the: "Brown actually encouraged the Buy to Let bubble."
That is a disgrace to anyone who claims there's anything left-wing about the NuLab government. In 11 years their efforts in the area of social housing have been pathetically too little and too late, helping to grow that bubble by the back door.
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Brian
The Chancellor makes a good point. The armchair pundits in the Scottish Government can't manage the budget they have as it is as a devolved administration, constantly going cap in hand to Westminister just shows up as poor budget management. Quite frankly it is embarrassing that we have an administration that can't effectively our budget and affairs. A big problem appears to be their mindset - they don't see themselves as a devolved administration. Well that is exactly what they are so it is time to do the job and stop wasting taxpayers money on childish attempts to score political points and create false arguments with Westminister. Their mandate is to lead a devolved administration for the good of the Scottish people - if that is not enough of an honour for them to treat the job with respect then I suggest they move aside and concentrate on their mudslinging and grave digging at their own expense.
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There is something very strange here. The world is tettering on the brink of financial collapse, the consequences of which could be enormous for the whole world. It is not beyond reason that people could strave to death if the collapse happens, that unemployment will sore, that trading will all but grind to a halt, that people may not be able to afford food. Think I am exaggerating? remember the great depression of the 1920, well this is potentially far bigger, if there is a collapse in the world economy then you will have rampant inflation, moneys real value evaporates, savings become valueless, pensions become worthless.
Yet when we are facing all of this what we descend to on this blog is petty comments. It is concerniing that some of our leading Labour politicians seek to use this near disaster to poke comments at Scotland.
We are not out of the woods yet, the rescue plan has only been launched, we will know in the next few days/weeks if it is succesful or not. If the latter we have just witnessed a huge amount of our money being thrown away. Hopefully it will help stabalise the market, if it does then is the time to begin to identify who got us into this in the first place, the bankers are the obvious answer but remember they are only working the system they are allowed to.
So this is not the time for petty sniping, this is a time for us all, not just in the UK, to get behind this scheme and hope for all you are worth that it works, becasue if it does not then we really are staring into the abyss.
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#25 Brownedov
I understand that. It seems rather petty and self-defeating.
If we all referred everything that we didn't care for much, the whole blog would grind to a halt. Oh dear, maybe I shouldn't have said that.
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#16 Anglosaxaphone
I had intended to get with some work today but instead I have to celebrate. I have acquired a stalker...I had no idea that I had managed to rile the mass blogging consortium to that extent.
Who am I? Well I'm the same person each time, I'm in full-time employment and I don't use any aliases, which I think makes me rather unusual in these threads (your overblown style reminds me of someone but I have neither the time or energy to work out who it is).
You seem to like going back over any of my previous posts. One of the most recent predicted that, like most Englishmen expected to put up 90% of the money to save an apparantly Scottish institution from failure, that I would end up with with a very well bitten hand.
I laid down the challenge in #1 for anyone to turn this into a tale of oppression and double standards but nobody has tried. I even thought of one myself in which Gordon Brown encourages UK banks, and especially Scottish based ones, to invest heavily in foreign debt obligations in the hope that a global financial meltdown would provide the excuse to nationalise said banks and end dreams of independence for a generation...but that would be ridiculous and nobody could be persuaded to believe that could they?
Why not let the dust settle? Nobody's out of the woods yet. I'm sure that time will provide scope for new grudges to emerge, for new resentments to fester on the back of these events. In the meantime, a tiny little thank-you would do a lot.
At the end of WWII a US general remarked to General de Gaulle that France had been saved by the allies. His response was "we will stun you with our ingratitude!" Sounds familiar.
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HBOS shareholders will now get 0.605 Lloyds shares for every HBOS share, against the original offer of 0.833.
If HBOS shareholders have any sense, they will vote against this "deal".
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Re 23 crazy islander:
Brown did what any other party would have done had they won the last election. Which is exactly what all governments have done since Thatcher. Remember the "Iron Laddie" not so long ago?
Of course all the other parties were lining up to change financial regulation had they won the last election.
Get real.
The UK played a part in creating this disaster along with the rest of the world. Lets not forget we all went along with it as well. We all new it was wrong to spend money we didn't have, but we carried on.
Now you want someone else to take responsibility for what we have done!
Re 18
Come on Old Nat, surely the UK must get some credit for leading the way over the wekend.
In light of our previous posts surely some credit where it is due?
In the end this crisis won't save Brown, it might save Glenrothes but it won't win the next election. It might make it closer, because Cameron and Osbourne have looked a bit hapless during the last few weeks.
In Scotland the crisis has taken some more of the veneer off the FM, he should have been on firm ground here this is his supposed area of expertise. Instead he has looked a bit off the pace and always looking to pick a fight with Wesminster when he should have been trying to do his job.
All grist to the mill for the future debates. But at the end of this we must hope for a consensus on change in the way we operate financial markets. That is what is required, consensus.
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#29 Reluctant-Expat
I am happy to say I have report this gentlemans comment as it is inflammatory and derogatory.
Perhaps you should return to your classroom where the only thing you have learned in your tenure was evidently the art of bullying.
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23. Good post CI!
No-one should be surprised at the actions of one P Green, however. This is just capitalism at work in case anyone had not noticed and there will be plenty other 'PGreens' waiting to pounce on what's fast becoming seriously undervalued companies in the West.
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#26 Blackivar
Your quoting a British paper calling it a "British" plan, doesn't alter the fact that the UK largely adopted the Swedish plan to solve their similar banking crisis in the early '90s.
Give credit where it's due - to the originators, not the copyists.
The UK announced their version of the plan on Wednesday 8 October, and the markets were in freefall by Friday
The EU announced the central themes of their plans last night, and the FTSE 100 opened 200 points higher By 2.30pm, it was 189.3 points higher at 4121.4.
On Wall Street, the Dow Jones Industrial Average opened over 300 points higher and is currently 413.7 points up at 8864.9.
Europe speaks, and the world pays attention. The UK makes an announcement, and is ignored.
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#29, Reluctant-Expat, this debate will become more mature when all those who disagree with you leave it? What a very revealing attitude.
#35, Anglophone, I appreciate that you don't use any aliases. But don't you sometimes feel angry with your parents for burdening you with such an unusual name?
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#17 Thanks for the response - I see what you say but don't you think the bigger taint will be living in a ruined economy for years to come? realistically, how many people have more than 35k in a bank account?
this is *taxpayers money*. It should go to those who really need it. Those who lose out beyond the thirty five thousand threshold should have been told to sue the bank executives. Instead what we see is an international game of chicken as each country tries to outdo each other as to who can guarantee the largest deposits.
WRT Iceland - the latest pariah state - the options are limitless. How about -
Radical Islam: Embrace Theocracy, invest heavily in hotels and wait for the rush of BBC journalists, Guardian readers and Mossad agents to arrive (Downside - potential obliteration by Barack Obama trying to prove anti terror credentials)
EU Funding: Invent fourteen new (sorry, dead) langauges, sit back and watch the deluge of new money, wait for people to talk about "the ice tiger economy". Yet more Guardian readers (Downside - not actually in the EU but this is not tough these days)
Become 51st state: Everyone votes for a faintly right wing cause, convinces the GOP that they would vote appropriately and surrenders sovereignty to the US. No less ridiculous than hawaii. Fewer Guardian readers. (Downside - may put McCain in power)
Hmmm, maybe Scotland should consider some of these. Mind you the second one sounds familiar...
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Darien part 2 ?
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Re 40
The previous weekend Mr Sarkosy tried to get a consenus on the crisis and failed. This weekend Brown and Darling have taken the lead and something happened.
But if the UK is ignored across the world surely Scotland would be even less of a force and certainly wouldn't have been at the centre of the weekends decsion making?
Don't see much in the press about Irelands influence over the proceedings.
The importance of the EU is underlined by this crisis, that is not in doubt. However the influence question is also seriously highlighted in this crisis. I feel that we would have had little or no influence had we been on our own.
We would be living with what ever the big boys had decided. the FM might have been at the meeting but not at the top table.
That I am afraid is a reality.
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"(...) within the British Isles, only the UK government had the clout and cash to rescue RBS."
A statement of the obvious or what?
Certainly, the devolved Scottish Government is not designed or permitted to attempt anything of the sort. But that hardly needs to be stated other than to point out that an independent Scottish Government within the European Union as a member of that organization in its own right and within the comfort zone of the eurozone, at the top table of which it could have been present while the UK head of government was shown the door, might have served Scotland well enough.
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Of course, the next (or next-but-one) Conservative government will do what all good Tories do, and try to sell to the public what is already theirs.
We will be asked to subscribe money to buy shares in a company which will be set up to hold the state interest in RBS and/or HBOS, despite the fact that our taxes/services will have been paying over several years.
--
How close were we, I wonder, to the Bank of England takling over the Bank of Scotland?
I can well imagine the Government appointees going through the books of our banks and querying the 'unnecessary costs' of printing Scottish banknotes. ('Let everyone use Bank of England notes,' I can almost hear them saying.)
--
Pity poor (that'll be right!!!) Sir Fred Goodwin, whose ambition overshot his talent by a couple of light years.
Why was being [among] the best in Scotland not good enough?
Or did he think that he was another Robert Fleming in the making...?
--
I'm sure that everyone will have seen the numerous satirical deacronymising efforts (re RBS and HBOS), but Heavy Bag Of S... is my favourite.
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#29
The endless immature and farcical claims emanating from the nationalist element have long sapped my will to participate as I once did.
Can we take that to the bank?
;-D
--
Uncalled for, I know.
As to posting etiquette:
If you disagree with someone, fine, but don't gratuitously abuse the original poster.
And if you can't find something good (i.e. constructive) to contribute in response to a particular post, just ignore it - the poster just might go away...
(I fully expect this post to benefit from the latter scenario.)
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#41 Simon_Brooke: second paragraph :oD
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#37 northhighlander
You'll have noticed that I wasn't denigrating Brown (though I wish he'd been reading Krugman
earlier!
The scheme is sound. It worked in the Nordic banking crisis. The UK needed to leap in first, because UK Governments, over the last 30 years, have followed the US model more than other EU countries.
The point is that it needs the strength of the Eurozone to achieve the leverage required to influence the global conomy.
The UK Unionists still cling to an outdated British Nationalism which has no place in a global world.
We need to be in the Euro, and have foreign policies which link us to European, not US interests.
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40. Grow up, oldnat.
Your endless search for ways to bash the UK is as tedious and pathetic as it is immature.
You get all upset when you think someone is 'putting Scotland down' (although you have usually misunderstood the offending post) so take a leaf out of your own exercise book.
41. No, try again. This board will become more mature when all the childish nats finally leave (see above).
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#44 northhighlander
"the influence question"
Like the North of England, "we" don't have much influence in the UK.
The "big boys" will always have the largest voice, and Scotland is simply an average sized country.
Hence my preference for being independently represented within Europe, where the voices of the smaller nations can be a counterbalance to the big ones. That is not a possibility within the imbalanced UK.
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From my nephew - Financial jokes
Q: What is the definition of optimism?
A: A banker ironing five shirts on a Sunday night
Q: What is the one thing the FTSE and the Olympics have in common?
A: Synchronised diving
Q: What is the difference between a pigeon and a banker?
A: A pigeon can still put a deposit on a Ferrari
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We know what Gordon Brown is saying on these matters, and it is
SAVE THE BANKS - STUFF SCOTLAND
We got it Gordon, loud and clear.
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#41 Simon_Brooke
Good point...I had to adopt this alias so that I could blend in. My real name is really terrible. The point I was making was that I only use one name while blogging.
It reminds me of a recent comment by Ed Balls during an interview in which he was asked whether his name had caused him problems at school. He replied that by and large he had escaped ridicule, unlike his sister Ophelia. Who says NuLab have no sense of humour?
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The UK and the Bank of England is dead in the water and this crisis has proven how unable to affect the world it is is in comparison to the whims of the Eurozone and the US Federal Reserve
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#46 The Forfarian
I've always wondered about the banknotes thing. Will the independent Scottish banks insist on printing their own Euro-note designs?
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51 Oldnat
"Hence my preference for being independently represented within Europe, where the voices of the smaller nations can be a counterbalance to the big ones. That is not a possibility within the imbalanced UK."
You keep saying this but, tregardless of what it might say in the Nice or, breath it quietly, the Lisbon Treaty, I can't think of an example of this happening in practice.
I'm broadly in favour of the EU but it remains flawed in terms of its democratic deficit, opaque in its financial transactions and ruled by horse trading between the big players. Do you recall Jacque Chirac rebuking new members, telling them to learn some manners? The institution has a very long way to go before I would swap my current constitutional arrangements...but never say never.
I don't mind if Scottish people want to become independent...we'll say nothing about the 37 billion if you'll just give it a rest about the oil. But to see Europe and the Euro as the panacea to all future problems...it's self deluding
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#29 Reluctant-Expat
"endless immature and farcical claims emanating from the nationalist element"
Stone-throwing and glass-houses spring strangely to mind, especially as you seem to label everyone who doesn't sing from the NuLab hymn-sheet as enemies of the Scottish people.
And are you not a rather extreme member of the UK nationalist element, particularly since your recent professed interest in federalism disappeared as quickly as it arrived?
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#57Anglophone
"The oil & gas sector plays a vital part in the UK economy and has been a cornerstone of its development over the past 30 plus years. Bank of Scotland has been actively involved in the sector since the development of some of the earliest North Sea fields in the early 1970's."
http://www.bankofscotland.co.uk/corporate/finance/oil-and-gas/index.html
Where would Scotland be if the truth hadn't been twisted by Wesminster back in the 70's.
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#55 Brian SH
"The UK and the Bank of England is dead in the water and this crisis has proven how unable to affect the world it is is in comparison to the whims of the Eurozone and the US Federal Reserve"
Is this the new script from the Great Economist (does anyone know who he worked for?) to be repeated ad infinitum until it becomes true?
You are entitled to your views but what you've just said flies in the face of the past weeks events. The UK certainly does not have the clout of the US Treasury Department or the combined weight of major EU economies (UK included), but dead in the water? I think you'll have to repeat that many, many times to get it to stick.
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51. It is bizarre how you persist in seriously believing that there is somehow a scenario where the EU's small countries have any chance of being a counterbalance to the Big Four (of which Scotland is obviously currently part).
Within an EU economy of $16tn, the big four alone contribute $11tn.
Of a total population of 500m, the big four alone make up 320m.
The same four have an instant majority of the votes in both the Council and Parliament. Even with 'majority voting', the bias is towards...guess who.
The Euro Commission favours giving additional voting weight to.....guess who.
Can you see how heavily biased the EU is going to be towards the big countries?
With three of the four in the eurozone, can you also guess where the monetary policy priorities are? 'ECB not BoE' is one of the more nonsensical of the SNP policies.
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#57 Anglophone
Anything seen as a "panacea to all future problems" is a delusion.
I've seen both some Nationalists and some UK Unionists posting as if their one idea of respectively a new Scotland, or the old UK was "the answer" (the real answer is 42). I presume that you would share my opinion that both are wrong.
I've posted before that there are problems with Europe, and that it needs to become a "real" Confederacy.
The Euro, however, is a different matter. My understanding is that Brown kept us out, because he thought that the UK economy would do better following the US housing bubble rather than the European finance model. He was right in the short term, that an apparent wealth bubble could be created, and we all know the result of that!
As a first step I'd like to see us join the Euro as soon as it is technically appropriate.
A minor advantage would be the removal of the inappropriately named BoE notes. A major advantage would be the end of Scottish banknotes (yes, I have an emotional attachment to them) which allowed the "Scottish" banks to have an even lower capital to debt ratio than other UK banks - only the Clydesdale aka NatWest aka Bank of Australia seems to have avoided misusing that facility.
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#14 "the wheels are coming off the SNP financial strategy" ...
if you remembered rightly, you would know the Scottish Parliament is not allowed to have a 'financial strategy'.
That is why it is quite so hilarious to see desperate Labour bloggers try and put the blame for the financial collapse (presided over by Incompetance, formerly known as 'Prudence' Brown) on the SNP.
I mean: what? Your argument genuinely is that it is the SNP's fault that the global economy collapsed, during GB's tenure?
Brown has continually proven himself to be a financial incompetent and the chickens are coming home to roast (deliberately not roost) ... deal with it.
Just wait until the Glenrothes result is in: the people know who has reserved the right to govern the economy ... even if a minority of contributors on these boards do not.
No amount of Labour spin and paid for editorials in various red-top rags will change the underlying facts.
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I can't believe this is happening!!! Will the English stop at NOTHING in their attempts to detroy Scotland the BRAVE.
This would never have happened in an INDEPNEDENT Scotland!!! Alex Salmond (who is a trained ECONOMIST) saw this financial crisis coming YEARS ago and would have ensured that these proud SCOTTISH banks would be conquering the WORLD. He would have banned these LONDON shortseller and spisv (unlike the english ministers BROWN and DARLING) and their EVIL deeds which have motrally harmed our GREAT nation and brought our MAGNIFICENT companys to their KNEES! When he speaks, the GREEDY businessmen in LONDON and Washington would quake in their boots, and all the people of SCOTLAND would know that their SAVINGS and MORGAGES would be safe for ever.
We must find our WILLIAM WALLACE spirit now and vote to free our nation! With Alex Samond as our LIFELONG leader of INEPENDENT Scotland we can take our place amongst the grate nations of the PLANET.
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55. Not that I thoroughly enjoy rubbing salt into the wound but....
The only things that have died around here are:
a) any last vestiges of credibility held by Salmond and his economic masterplan for an independent Scotland and
b) the independence campaign in general.
Salmond said we could rely on oil for a "stable and wealthy future".....oil now sells for less than it did a year ago and is still dropping. Production is, of course, still dropping at approx 10% a year.
Salmond preaches about his oil fund....even though Holyrood would need all the oil revenues, plus billions more, just to finance current spending.
Salmond repeatedly trumpeted our financial sector as a centrepiece of an independent Scotland's economy.......mmm.
Without any reliable economic plan for post-independence, there will be no support for independence.
This independence campaign, even though it barely started, is over. Denying that doesn't make it any less true.
Now, if the nationalists will leave us alone, we can get on with discussing and debating important matters, without any more tedious and irrelevant distractions.
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#56 Anglophone
No. It would certainly be safer and simpler for the whole island to move straight to the Euro.
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#57 Anglophone
"I'm broadly in favour of the EU but it remains flawed in terms of its democratic deficit"
True, but it's marginally less awful than the democratic deficit in Westmidden.
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#60 Anglophone
Show me a point in the crisis where movements by the UK Treasury have calmed the markets.
Only movements by the Fed and the ECB have provided a net positive effect on the world economy.
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#60 Anglophone
I agree that #55 Brian SH was wrong to describe them as "dead in the water".
However, the BoE is too small as a Reserve Bank to have any real influence in world markets.
What's your objection to dumping it and entering the Eurozone and having the European Central Bank as the Reserve Bank instead?
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#62 oldnat:
Remember we could still have a distinct design for one side of Scottish Euro coins. Any suggestions for who/what should grace it? My vote is for Rabbie (Burns not hippo!).
BTW I still think they missed a trick with the Euro. The best idea I heard was to call it the Brussel and divide it into 100 Sprouts. How great would that have been?! ;o)
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# 63. Pattymkirkwood;
How do you spell 'I-n-c-o-m-p-e-t-e-n-c-e' ;-)
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It is nice to know, as an Englishman, that I am once again propping up Scottish institutions - Scottish, that it is when it comes to jobs in Edinburgh but miraculously British when it comes to find several billions to stop them from going under.
The price of votes in Glenrothes is obviously very high...
As to #53, "Save the banks, stuff Scotland"? It's precisely the other way about. The nationalist position, as ever, is 'stuff the banks not headquartered in Scotland, save Scottish dosh and jobs'. Predictable, at least.
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63. Plot. Lost.
Hang on, aren't you the one who also claimed we are in surplus even without the oil? Oh dear.
Salmond disagrees with you: "The net fiscal balance in Scotland.....a deficit of #10.2 billion when excluding North Sea revenue ....a deficit of #2.7 billion when including the geographical share of North Sea revenue."
See? Told you he did.
By the way, oil was averaged $58 a barrel then, compared to the $76 it is today. Production is approx 10-15% lower nowadays too.
Go on, let's see your maths.
Nationalists, honestly. Totally clueless about the economy.
Totally.
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Ah Scotland, my own my native soil, home of fair, just people, friendly, welcoming internationalists, bastion of social awareness, loved at home, revered abroad...
Who would imagine such spite and venom lurks among that section of the population who would claim to love her most?
There are people here who would happily sink the UK just to "get" Brown and damage Labour. They would rather see the nation's finances wiped out than concede an inch to the Prime Minister and Chancellor striving to save them.
What kind of people are you? Where will you direct your hatreds if independence is achieved? Fellow Scots seeking free speech? Immigrants? Spanish fishermen?
That sort of thing doesn't just stop when it's ingrained in your character.
Patriots? Sorry, you are Scotland's shame.
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#62
Natwest is owned by the public (as of today), through RBS
Clydesdale bank is owned by National Australia Bank
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#23
The UK has the highest rate of personal debt in the western world.
Probably, but isn't that the problem of all the people who have credit cards and high debt. Surely some personal responsibilty is required in this case.
Also are you arguing that the Government should've stepped in years ago and stopped people using credit cards or limited spending? I'm sure you and all the opposition parties at the time would've complained about the Government and it's nanny-state lecturing.
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Three cheers for Darling, he's decided to help Iceland (a little bit at least) - UK lending Iceland's Landsbanki money. Whilst the Icelanders might not exactly be dancing in the street (sic) of Kirkjubaerklaustur, they might be saying a little "Takk" as they sup their Skyr.
Much better to keep a friend, especially one who is in your debt, than to create an enemy. More of the same please!
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69. Why this sudden requirement to have a central bank that can influence world markets?
This is nothing but a desperate attempt to move the goalposts and win cheap (and totally irrelevant) points.
The idea of a central bank is to provide a stable monetary policy covering interest rates, exchange rates and inflation not to influence world markets (although the rest of the UK's massive financial industry certainly does - The City trades more dollars than New York and more Euros than Frankfurt and Paris combined apparently).
The nationalist complaint about the BoE is mostly that Scotland's needs are not dealt with as a top priority, coming below the needs of the SE, the main engine of the UK economy.
But how is belonging to the eurozone a solution?
Just what influence do you see Scotland, an economy of #120bn on the edge of the Union, having within a continental-based economy measured in trillions?
What does Scotland's economy have in common with the continental economy and its inflationary pressures, economic performance etc.?
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Woundedpride:
The reason 'England' (the English only pay taxes apparently) has to prop up Scottish institutions (It's British untill it fails) is because Westminister sets the policies surrounding regulation. The countries with strict regulation are prevailing, so who do we blame? Our lame UK-Government for not making the right choices. Perhaps unpopular to make at the time but we would be thanking them now. You can not blame Scots since the Scots Parliament had no control over this issue.
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oldnat
With regard to your post on decision making in Europe, I agree. In an ideal world with European reform, becoming part of a large EU is attractive. The need for the UK would be diminished.
However the type of reform we are looking for is not even on the horizon. Why would Germany, and France want to give up power, especially if Scotland were to split from the UK and thus weaken the constituent parts?
Therefore this does in my opinion provide a real reason against independance. Not a complete reason for not doing it, but definitley an entry in the against column
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73. You are an absolute balloon, the most obnoxious creep ever to post on the internet, one thing is certain you have never had any connection with Scotland in your life. Just a sad dumpling.
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As a devotee of consistency and fairness, I feel I should draw your attention to the fact that what would appear to be a perfectly admissible post at #2 of this thread, which has been tossed out because it apparently offends anglo-unionists who do not care to be on the receiving end of legitimate parody and value freedom of expression so long as it does not disturb their cosy anglocentric view of the world, can still be accessed at #232 of the previous thread.
If #232 of the previous thread is not deemed to be contrary to the house rules, it seems illogical to my seditiously rational mind for #2 of this thread to be judged to be in contravention of them, as both posts are identical.
I realize that anglo-unionists are pragmatically rather than rationally inclined by nature, but, really, this degree of irrationality is absurd, like much else in the UK that ought to be exposed, as parody serves to do, when it is not suppressed by the intolerant and the immature.
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I see pattymkirkwood has exited sharply stage-left after repeating the nationalist mantra. (Is this a daily requirement for the nats?)
Maybe some of the other nationalists can substantiate the little lady's claim that Scotland is somehow in surplus without the oil.
Anyone?
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As I've said before, time to cancel Homecoming 2009, and concentrate on marketing tourism in Scotland in the UK and Europe instead. People will be less willing and able to fly all over the world, and will look for destinations closer to home. And forget about 'building the brand', let's add real value instead.
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#72 WoundedPride
The money that you as an Englishman are propping Scotland up with again would not by any chance derive in any small measure from the huge revenue from North Sea oil taxation over the past 30 and more years, which, together with other taxation from the Scottish jurisdiction, has been paid into the UK Treasury, as there is no Scottish or indeed English one?
It is nice to see that the English, if you are anything to go by, are as unflappably predictable as ever.
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#75 rjakes
Correction accepted. Mea culpa.
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#74 brigadierjohn
I see you are having another of your occasional dizzy turns. Take a deep breath, go and have a lie down and do not return to your computer until you are confident that you are feeling better. You may possibly be spending too much time on line defending the indefensible, which is hardly likely to seem less indefensible if you rant on like this.
Or is this just another of your famous ploys? It is difficult to know with you. You are not to be trusted, you old rogue.
I must confess that I have no doubt that those who betray their country richly deserve to be judged to be its shame. It will be news to the rest of the world that to seek to achieve the restoration of one's country's independence is to betray it and to be its shame. However, I grant that you are entitled to your perverse point of view, even though you evidently are not possessed of a comparable capacity for tolerating and even respecting a dissenting view.
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#80.
I understand your arguement to be a reason why Britain needs Scotland rather then why Scotland needs Britain.
Scotland is poorly represented in the European Union by Britain. Does Scotland have anything to loose by representing herself in the European Union?
Anaxim, I have actually noticed several Scottish Clans are recalling Scots home for 2009 (not linked to the Homecoming as far as I am aware). Perhaps the Homecoming may well pay off if the Clans gather.
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I believed prior to the events of recent weeks Scottish Independence was becoming inevitable.
Recent events have pushed the likelyhood of independence further away. Right or wrong people will remember what has happened in the coming years. It may be that an indpendent Scotland could have dealt with the situation better, but my feeling is that people are naturally cautious and will be less willing to take that risk having lived through this week.
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An afterthought to my #82:
Rule Britannia, Britannia waives the rules.
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#61, #65, #73 & #78 Reluctant-Expat
First I must congratulate you on providing a few facts for a change, but sadly you have forgotten to quote sources and dates to allow confirmation and examination of them, as well as mixing apples with pears by using a mixture of EUR, GBP & USD currency figures. As characters above ASCII 127 are not shown properly by the BBC blog parser, it is safer to use the SWIFT (formally ISO 4217) codes for currencies, and few associate the # sign with the GBP I presume you mean where you use it.
If you wish your claims to be taken seriously, I suggest you link to the appropriate URLs.
In the period of "Duff" Gordon's watch, the cost of 1 EUR has risen from under GBP 0.68 to over GBP 0.78 (EUR increase by 15%) and the cost of 1 USD has risen from under GBP 0.50 to nearly GBP 0.58 (USD increase by 16%). See this website's Market Data for current data and the United Nations Treasury for historical data back to 1994 for most currencies, so the dates of your USD oil prices are clearly key, for example.
#83 Reluctant-Expat
Working overtime tonight?
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#83 Reluctant-Expat
The provider of no proof can go find his own!
Economics change to fit the situation, perhaps your opinions should change to match the feelings of the Scottish people instead of those of your Ultra-nationalist British views.
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#71 - My mistake on spelling earlier, rushed post … which brings me onto another point,
Expat - some of us have jobs, and don't have the opportunity to post responses to your pathetic, baseless bile every fifteen minutes.
Not that it matters, but I am not a 'little lady'. Although, it was nice to see your thoroughly misogynistic side brought out into the open! I wonder if you will now attempt to add sectarianism to your fine record of intolerance (as displayed against anyone who you consider ‘too young’ Post 29), now you have twigged my name is ‘Patrick’?
#41 (Simon Brooke’s) post expressed it best all that disagree with expat must leave the forum for the debate to become more mature?!
Expat, your constant sneering tone is bringing down the overall atmosphere of this blog (along with your unsubstantiated claims) – do not put the blame on others. Previously, I have been able to have civil conversations with even the good brigadier – needless to say we did not agree, but we were able to do so in an agreeable fashion - now this forum is more extremely polarized than ever before, and it is people such as yourself that are responsible.
The Times Study released on May 18th would be a good place for you to start, or The Herald's exposé of the myths of dependency. All the usual reservations apply to the Times Study (that you would get with GERs reports - even if the last one showed a surplus!): considers taxation "taken in Scotland" vs. "spending on behalf of Scotland", also includes various fiddles where are figures are based on official headquarters.
HBOS figures are placed on Halifax, with no Scottish weighting (expect that to change this year)!
All major supermarkets are placed outwith Scotland too (as a result our spending on food doesn't count toward Scottish sales tax or corp. tax contributions) - Morrisons (Yorkshire), Tesco (Hertfordshire), Asda (Yorkshire - again), Somerfield (Bristol), and for the more up-market: Marks and Sparks is added to the London commercial taxation column. Like it or not such corporations would have to file and pay their taxes in Scotland under independence.
Naturally, I don’t expect a considered response to this … no doubt more abuse, such as that you have displayed above, will follow – or perhaps you are more of a deleter than a debater?
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For those criticising the British plan as irrelevant, Paul Krugman, the American economist, recommended it as the best option in an NYT op-ed on Friday. He also lauded it on his blog yesterday. It's the same Krugman that just won the Nobel Prize.
I'm going to tip my hat in the direction of Brown and Darling. A tiny bit. But I expect this is only the beginning.
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I see the Lords have voted down the 42-day detention plan by 309 votes to 118, a pretty hefty majority against. I wonder how many peers looked at the "interesting" use of anti-terror legislation against Iceland and had second thoughts.
But of course there are all sorts of safeguards built in to these pieces of legislation to prevent abuses...aren't there?
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#74 Brigadier
"They would rather see the nation's finances wiped out than concede an inch to the Prime Minister and Chancellor striving to save them."
You quite happy for those that aided and contrived to bolster a bubble bursting economy to be the only ones capable of alleviating the situation that they have led the UK into. How many mistakes are they allowed to make before you see what they are turning these islands into.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7665718.stm
"The following day, Downing Street wrote to then Public Health Minister Tessa Jowell stating: "The prime minister would like your ministers to look for ways of finding a permanent derogation for sport, in particular F1."
On 24 October, Ms Jowell wrote to Mr Blair setting out possible options which included the idea of an exemption, but also contained alternatives such as a longer phase-in period for the ban.
But five days later, she received a letter insisting: "His (the prime minister's) view remains that we should seek to negotiate a permanent exemption for Formula 1..."
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To clarify my post above, this is the beginning of on-going economic turmoil, not me tipping my hat towards NuLab.
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Stop for just a minute and think what Alex Salmond would have said if it was only English banks that required Government aid. Also, if one of these banks being baled was also in the process of being taken over by a Scottish based bank.
Our First Minister could not curtail his glee and that is where he falls down. It is only two weeks ago that he was blaming HBOS woes on the "spivs and speculators" It would make him a bigger man if he would acknowledge now that he was wrong and that their problems were somewhat more fundamental
The action taken today by H M Government is good for us all, both unionist and nationalist. Darling is right to point out the benefits of belonging to a bigger entity.
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#89 jordanbasset
"Recent events have pushed the likelyhood of independence further away."
It's too early too say - Glenrothes will tell us a little, the 2009 elections a little more and the (possible?) 2010 general election much more.
However, in a sense this thread is itself off-topic re Scottish politics because nobody in Scotland from the FM down can exert real influence over these matters happening in London, although we're all free to comment on their sagacity.
What will determine the future polity of Scotland will ultimately be nothing to do with economics but about self-determination vs. control by a larger neighbour. I don't think you'll find many Norwegians, Irish, Slovaks, Croats, Slovenes or even Icelanders who have made such splits believe they were primarily on economic grounds or many who regret having made them.
Unless the English electorate wake up from their own unitary unionism and quickly find a (con)federal solution fair enough to satisfy clear majorities of the other three nations, the UK will not long survive in its present form and, like Yugoslavia, may not survive at all.
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When I wake up tomorrow and the next day, and the next day all the small European nations will still be there and still be independent and still be providing their peoples with as good of not better provision of all the services than the big nations.
It is folly to confuse a big economy with the comfort or provision for it's peoples.
The RBS and HBOS (which hasn't been a Scottish bank for a good number of years) have suffered from bad banking decisions and fiscal irresponsibilty encouraged by the UK government and a Chancellor who for years dressed up increasing consumption funded by huge and growing national and personal debt as economic growth while we plumetted out of the top ten countries in the productivity (real economy) stakes.
I rather think a Scottish Government opersting with traditional Scottish values of probity and foresight would never have allowed the sort of nonsense we've seen our bankers getting up to.
Goedon Brown today reminds me of a rogue taking credit for bringing a bucket of water to the smouldering remains of a house he set fire to in the first place.
This will last for a wee while till people remember who has made UK the most indebted nation on the face of the earth and who for cheap political popularity encouraged the huge debt bubble which is the cause of this collapse.
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There needs to be some heat taken out of the slanging match here. Brigadier is correct that there are (some) nationalists who are ingrained to hate all that is the UK and will never be open to opinions different to their own. I always wonder how much of that is sectarian in nature.The charges of traitor / betrayal by some is beyond the pale (reminds me of Doug_Duh! in previous posts).
The aphorism "(Insert as appropriate) Bloggers use statistics as a drunk uses a lamp post - for support rather than illumination" is apt here. No-one truly knows whether we would be better without the Union and the SNP has never made a convincing arguement to (with it's left wing politics) to convince the majority to vote for them.
Even those that lean towards the UK (like me) don't believe that we are too wee or too weak to survive on our own. However, it's likely that the pros outweigh the cons - if it's not the case then the only credible independance party has not made a sufficient case.
Brian's blogs degenerate into the same old camps regardless of subject matter but, hey, it has been fun.
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The banking crisis is global. That means no matter the size of the country, big (USA) or small (Iceland).
What determines how badly you are hit is dependent on the bankers you have and how greedy they were. You could of course ride the storm if you have oil unless you have squandered your oil reserves like London has on Scotlands behalf.
So, Scotland if independent, may have sufferred like those big countries have but that depends on how Scotland would have regulated the bankers; we don't know the answer. What we do know for sure is that we are sharing the pain as part of the UK.
Now why is it Scottish Unionists are in raptures at the thought of Scotland suffering?. It is akin to taking delight in seeing a family member contracting an illness. I really doubt most of the Unionists on here are Scottish. If they are, they make me feel disgusted that I share the same nationality with them. They are not interested in Scotland making a success of itself but would rather continue with the absurb notion that we should be dependent on England and be thankful for it. What does that say about these people?
Freedom
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Where is Nicola Sturgeon in all this ... perhaps looking up the word 'bank' in a dictionary?
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93. I see you are another nat who cannot grasp how Corporation Tax is calculated among the nations and regions.
To put it as simply as possible; CT per nation/region is calculated on operations within each area and not across the entire UK.
So any CT paid by, say, RBS would be split so that CT paid on English-based operations would be listed under English taxes. CT paid on Scottish-based operations would be allocated to Scotland.
Despite being told this on many occasions, there are still nats who think RBS's entire CT bill should be allocated to Scotland - which it shouldn't.
Furthermore, the oft-quoted Grant Thornton/Times Study was based on oil prices staying above $120 a barrel, which is quite clear to anyone who actually reads the report.
To put it bluntly, this and the rest of your post is a confusion of wildly inaccurate, conspiracy-related theories with no basis whatsoever.
I do find it hilarious that nats absolutely refuse to accept even the SNP's GERS accounts, purely because it shows a multi-billion deficit as opposed to a multi-billion surplus, which their reality demands exists despite there being no evidence to suggest that.
The SNP made a huge show of the 3,000-odd recalculations they demanded were made on the previous GERS accounts......only for the 'revised' version to be almost identical to the previous:
2005-06: non-oil deficit of 11bn
2006-07: non-oil deficit of 10.8bn.
The only difference in the bottom line was due to higher oil prices, not SNP-ordered recalculations.
Anyway, back you nats go to your huffing and puffing as we all watch your entire argument circle that big, big plughole.
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#98.
By being apart of Britain our banking systems have been able to take higher risks, is it still a benefit to be apart of a larger entity in this case?
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Just read back this evening's posts.......Yowza!
You lot really leave reality behind when you are left to your own devices, don't you!
91. Maybe you should take a break from all this wild-eyed, angst-ridden hysteria. The nationalist theories and claims are becoming increasingly unhinged.
Do you seriously see any scenario where the UK becomes a 'confederacy'? That is the only constitutional restructuring that is less likely than Scotland becoming fully independent.
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#101 amicusalba
Quite true, but equally true that
(some) UK unionists who are ingrained to hate all that is Europe and will never be open to opinions different to their own.
(some) UK unionists who are ingrained to hate any change in the UK constitution and will never be open to opinions different to their own.
Again quite true, but equally true that that argument applies to every country that is no longer a member of a Union, or has joined a Union (like Europe) that they were not previously in.
Now to justify that assertion, you need to provide some evidence - have you a lamppost handy?
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#103 rjakes
While this isn't the silliest post on this thread, it comes close.
Why don't you ask what the Deputy Leaders of the Tories, Lib-Dems, Labour in Scotland are saying?
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It does seem more likely that the nats cant repeat the swing of Glasgow east in Glenrothes.
Looking at all the recent polls, suggest that labour will hold on with a reduced majority.
So, where now! for the nats
Do they drop their Independence policy
and seek a better parliament with increased powers.
Do they campaign for an EU referendum in 2010 rather than an Independent referendum.
Not alot to bank on, they have got to be clear,the honeymoon is over.
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#108 oldnat,
To be fair on post#103 rjakes
I think he is paying reference to Ms Sturgeons failure to incorporate the inflation rate into her health budget.
Which did results in an 80m shortfall
to the health services.
Not good accounting by all-means.
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#107 Touche on your last point oldnat ;-)
As I alluded to I will not rely on so called statistics from the sources that nationalists seem to extract or subvert to back up a point nor even some unionist posts. I guess that I should have used the term ‘spurious facts’ however you get my drift.
The main concern is the thrust of the nationalist argument (and discourse in my limited circles) which seems to be ‘loudly deep fry UK negativity with liberal splashes of Scottish oil’ or ‘the UK government has led disastrously, incompetently and facetiously destroying the Scottish economy’(despite Scots being in all the main posts).
Since I don’t prescribe to this view, why would I or moderates trust a nationalist party bereft of obvious talent (beside Salmond - a deft politician like him or loathe him) to manage more competently than the most experienced economic and political Scots? It also beggars belief that an independent Scotland would thrive in any economic downturn whilst England, Wales and N.I suffered.
To justify my assertion, I will, like the majority of pragmatic Scots, judge by what I see as a fair argument based on positivity (from both sides of the debate) but I have to say that the prevailing argument espoused by nationalists is ‘victimhood by England'. Other rants of “Look how the UK Govt dithered with the credit crunch” juxtaposed to the economist Paul Krugman here tonight in the US, lauding the UK as “acting expeditiously and was most effective in this crisis.” As I am a mere mortal, I will fall in line with him rather than Alex ‘Gimme a Billion’ Salmond or other nationalist bloggers.
I also don’t get the dichotomy of breaking up a Union but wanting to immerse deeper than we are with the European Union. Independent but with much less influence than a typical eastern European neighbour.
Yes I agree there is no recent successful (which I define as peaceful and economically viable) example of dissolution to prove or disprove the unionist / nationalist debate either way. My only life experience was of the recent breaking up of a union within the European continent of the FRY during 94-95 and Serbia / Kosovo for the past 6 years which I illustrated first hand what a nationalist agenda can do. And don’t think that Scots are any less tribal / sectarian regardless of shared language.
The only possibility of a vast majority of Scots embracing ‘independence’ is likely to be by the gradualist strategy of SNP and only IF its shows its competency at a local level in the fullness of time. For now they are no where near it.
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Interesting piece in the New York times on Sunday.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/13/opinion/13krugman.html?em
Has Gordon saved the world economy?
The article is by Nobel prize winner Paul Krugman.
Not saying I agree with him, but it is interesting to see that counter to what some posters are saying, people around the world are looking to Britain and following our lead - well at least according to Krugman.
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The SNP wants to take Scotland away from the rest of the UK. However at the first sign of any economic trouble the entire party seems to vanish and the only comments we get are from A.Salmond who welcomes the Brown/Darling plan and then asks for £1b subsidy for the Scottish economy.
Hardly the most positive endorsment of independence.
Though didn't somoeone ask for the return of the return of the body of Mary Queen of Scots .... least they have some priorities
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I would like to know why the takeover of HBOS by Lloyds will rescue HBOS, while RBOS acquiring the Dutch bank was a step too far for RBOS?
I keep hearing that the Lloyds/HBOS merger will help because it will make it one of the largest banks, so why didn't this work for RBOS/Dutch bank? Was it the timing?
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#100 sneckedagain
Quite so.
It is apparent that in the UK we have been living beyond our means collectively and as individuals, many of us. We knew this but were encouraged to believe that it was sustainable. Like sheep we followed the flock. We can hardly complain, therefore, if we have been fleeced. Just as people bought foolishly into the great technology stock-market bubble which burst spectacularly a few years back, so the toxic-debt bubble has burst. Why is anyone surprised? Bubbles do burst, after all, inevitably. After each disaster "lessons will be learned" but never are for very long, and along comes another bubble.
This whole easy-buck something-for-nothing mentality is a British problem and a recurring one, because it is endemic. It is a phenomenon which Scotland has become caught up in because Scotland is in the UK. Whether we would have steered clear of it outside the UK is unknowable, but I suspect that wiser counsels could have prevailed, especially if we had not been cajoled, browbeaten, alarmed and scaremongered away from the path of independence in the 1970s.
The materialist degeneracy and decadence of the UK and the consequences of these which have resulted in the toxic-debt economy of a post-imperial state with delusions of grandeur but which is no longer even paying its way in the world do not present us with any reason to turn from the path of greater self-government for Scotland. It is certain that we shall never be free of the British sickness unless we break free of the UK.
What a society the UK is today. Look at it and weep. It is not beyond understanding why certain sections of our immigrant population take a rather dim view of it. The UK state may arguably have been worthy of respect once. The economic foundations of what is left of it have been severely eroded, and we are living beyond our means. Its economy built on sand may hold together more or less for a little while longer, but the glue that has just been applied will come unstuck sooner or later. The latest phenomenal state borrowing will come back to haunt us before very long. Unless the structure and infrastructure of the economy are transformed in the meantime, the reckoning has only be postponed. What is to come some way down the line? Further borrowing as government spending increases further as the economic impact of the financial crisis is felt? Higher taxation? Rampant inflation? Social dislocation? Fighting in the streets between unreconciled elements of the population? Scottish independentists reviled as the shame of their country and dealt with accordingly? One notes with distate that the rhetoric associated with that sort of extremism is already being indulged in by some anglo-unionists. Beware of the calumniating hysterics of those who claim to be the guardians of reason and wisdom by virtue of being champions of the UK state.
While we await the full economic impact of the financial crisis, which is something which, unfortunately, we shall not be spared, anglo-unionist politicians strut upon the stage. Our so-called saviours are among us, and they want our votes so that they can stay in office and give us more of the same short-termism that landed us in the mire in the first place. To follow a better path there is only one way for Scotland, and that is to decide for ourselves which path to follow. To do that we need independence and membership of the European Union and of the eurozone, which is being led through this crisis by the president of the European Union, not the prime minister of the British one.
The electors of Glenrothes have an opportunity to push Scotland in that direction. It is to be hoped that they will not allow themselves to be intimidated by the alarming nature of recent events. The best way to show solidarity with our southern neighbours is to put our own house in order and then cooperate with them from a position of strength so that they may put theirs in order too. Otherwise they will drag us down further.
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Re: #102 hadrianswall
well said
It is certainly interesting to note the number of unionist posters who do not live in Scotland (whether they were born here or not), but still seem to be fascinated by Scotland and spend a great deal of time putting down the people and their abilities.
Bottom line - if you don't live here (and pay taxes here), you don't get a vote, so who cares what you think.
The constant whine that Scotland is a drain on England's wealth, coupled with their unwillingness to see the back of this unworthy 'money-pit' are a strange combination that they seem to embrace with such enthusiasm that I am left wondering as to their motivation.
I suspect that this has more to do with the old colonial aspirations and a longing for the days of The Raj when the English 'ruled The World'.
Independence is not about finance or political talent or anything else, it's about self-determination, and the constant stream of negativity espoused by the unionists is designed to make the people of Scotland doubt their ability to run their own country, nothing more.
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#104
Wrong.. Corporation Tax is not split up between countries/regions within the UK and all of it goes into a single pot in the Treasury.
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#112 Blackivar
I have no doubt Prof. Krugman is a worthy Nobel winner, and is definitely someone to listen to in his field. However, like many US citizens (and not a few Brits) his following of European news seems rather anglocentric, as reflected in his "the major economies of continental Europe in effect declared themselves ready to follow Britain's lead" in the link you quote.
Had he been a more avid reader of the NY Times in which he writes, he would have seen Sarkozy Stresses Global Financial Overhaul on 26 September, which begins by reporting: "While the global financial crisis will have serious consequences for the French economy, he said, bank deposits will be guaranteed and individual taxes will not be raised. Mr. Sarkozy promised that the government would move ahead with its reforms, especially in shrinking the bloated state sector, and he called for an overhaul of the world’s financial system, arguing that an era of unregulated markets was over."
This, you will recall, is well before the NuLab UK government conceded the need to upgrade guarantees to savers to GBP 50,000. I am not for a moment suggesting that Prof. Krugman should rewrite his article, but a little more research in the current affairs archives would have shown him that last week-end's eurozone actions were hardly "following Britain's lead", especially given their intention to strengthen regulation.
However, none of the above is either a pro- or anti-argument for independence and/or full fiscal autonomy. As Scotland has neither, it can only watch from the gallery, but it is surely reasonable to consider whether a Scottish government would have been more or less prudent than the UK's and whether the cons (if there are any) of being in the eurozone would have outweighed the pros.
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Re116
It is very easy to replace real political debate with your type of post.
It is all too common for both sides of the debate to resort to typecasting opponents as unpatriotic or pro English.
It is easy to blame someone else for all our problems and England is an obvious easy target.
England and the Union is not the casue of all Scotlands problems.
The nationalist debate is better served by factual debate over the way forward. Frankly the current crisis poses real questions over independance that posters on this blog have been unable to answer.
We have to get a grip and believe that the only way forward is to get off our backsides and work harder. We used to be good at it.
No use whinging, we just need to get on with here and now. If somenoe comes up with a good reasoned argument for constitutional change then fine, but in the short term we need to make best use of our develoved powers to improve our economy and services without continually picking a fight with Westminster.
Yesterdays begging bowl stuff was frankly embarassing. It seems that Alec's reaction to any crisis is to pick a fight with someone in England.
Self determination starts with Devolution beacuse that is real, available and we can get on with it.
If these powers were used to full effect perhaps more of the population would support independance. At this point there is no consenus for change.
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#116 googlehoo
Well said, newbie.
In particular, your last para summarises my #99 accurately. Tiresome though they may be, the unionist whines probably do more good than harm in helping to make people realise that the future is theirs to decide.
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113. A baby deer caught in headlights is how I see Salmond and the SNP's reaction to all this.
Before this all kicked off, the SNP announced that they were going to publish their strategy on reserved matters.
I would have thought now would have been a perfect time for The Great Economist to show off his genius........sadly, not a squeak.
Salmond seems to be an example of how attitude is a poor substitute for skills and experience.
However, after this has all passed, I'm quite confident we will hear how He alone knew the solution to this global economic crisis all along.
114. I believe it is all about timing. The RBS consortium is thought to have paid too hefty a premium for ABN and clearly at the wrong time. The bank has been on an international spending spree for many years now and it seems this was one major purchase too far.
116. Here we go again, 'standard nationalist whinge no.372'.
Just because the vast majority of us do not agree with the SNP's flawed economic plans, does not mean we are all "against Scotland".
Either grow up fast or join the other nationalist idiots on the Herald website.
117. It is split up for the sake of regional calculations.
So the spectacular nationalist implosion continues.....Someone should alert CERN about the black hole appearing where Salmond's legacy complex used to be.
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#118 I do so wonder where this notion that left to their own devices people in this country would run everything better and not fall fowl of the global economy.
Scots bankers have been as guilty as everyone else in over-reaching themselves and adding to the toxic credit market that exists.
Scots politicians haven't been predicitng this event and like everyone else have been reacting.
Yes, Scottish banks were built of the principles of responsible conservative investments - but at one point Scots were some of the tallest people in Europe. That like having principled banks, is no longer the case.
Scottish banking even in independence would surely follow the anglo-american style of banking afterall - it helped form it.
All this rose tinted in an Independent Scotland we would have done things better because Scottish people are inherently better at these things (which some posters seem to profess) rings a tad hollow.
I doubt things would be much different had Scotland been a independent state than part of the UK.
#116 Why don't you ask some of the pro-independence posters where they are? There are plenty of non-residents posting on either side.
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Does anyone else find irony in the fact that we have a Labour government who have consistantly carried on the Tory policy of privatisation (PFI, PPP, rail networks etc.)... only to find that they are forced to nationalise the banks?
You gotta give it to Labour, at least they have achieved in office; something in keeping with what they used to stand for... even if it was kinda forced on them. *;o)
Saor Alba!
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116 Googlehoo
I'm always puzzled by this line. I always thought that the "Raj" was shorthand for the British Empire rather than an English Empire. It was something in which Scots played a very prominent role and which benefited Scotland economically.
Nobody believes in empires any more thank goodness (except possibly for the Americans who never returned the land to the native peoples;-)), so I'm puzzled as to this oft tossed about accusation that the British, meaning the English in this nuance, crave a return to empire rather than embrace the EU. Let's look at that EU...most members at one time or another had an empire.
- France...slightly smaller than the UK's but still very big. Do Frenchmen crave empire?
- Spain...huge empire, do Spaniards still crave empire?
- Austria/Hungary...massive continental empire. Do Austrians rave a renewal of imperial glory?
- Denmark...big empire but can't say that they strike me as big imperialists these days.
- Portugal...one of the last to dismantle extensive African possessions
- Sweden? ...even Sweden
- Italy? Well ignoring the Roman thing, modern Italy pursued a particularly brutal brand of colonial expansion in Africa.
- Germany...several attempts at empire, all ending very bloodily. Do modern Germans crave empire? I don't think so?
- Belgium, the ulimate Euro-State had a large African empire run as a private company by the King. Not big on empire these days.
- Netherlands...ditto
- Scotland...tried its hand at empire pre-Union but went broke trying, but we've been over that before.
You could go on and on, so why this insistence that the English are uniquely wedded to overseas conquest and exactly how do Scots seemingly escape their responsibility here?
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#118
It is of course fairly certain that an independent Scotland would have adopted a more European approach based on what is loosely known as social market economics.
Scotland would therefore have had the benefit of a more mixed economy where financial services were seen less as an industry in its own right and more as an "enabling" sector working closely with Govt and industry to develop and grow the real Scottish economy.
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64. At 5:32pm on 13 Oct 2008, SNPforINDEPENSE wrote:
I can't believe this is happening!!! Will the English stop at NOTHING in their attempts to detroy Scotland the BRAVE.
This would never have happened in an INDEPNEDENT Scotland!!! Alex Salmond (who is a trained ECONOMIST) saw this financial crisis coming YEARS ago and would have ensured that these proud SCOTTISH banks would be conquering the WORLD. He would have banned these LONDON shortseller and spisv (unlike the english ministers BROWN and DARLING) and their EVIL deeds which have motrally harmed our GREAT nation and brought our MAGNIFICENT companys to their KNEES! When he speaks, the GREEDY businessmen in LONDON and Washington would quake in their boots, and all the people of SCOTLAND would know that their SAVINGS and MORGAGES would be safe for ever.
We must find our WILLIAM WALLACE spirit now and vote to free our nation! With Alex Samond as our LIFELONG leader of INEPENDENT Scotland we can take our place amongst the grate nations of the PLANET.
-------
My God it's Robert the Bruce reincarnated!
I don't know whether you are being sarcastic here, but assuming you are not:
Alex Salmond saw this coming? I don't recall him mentioning this years ago. He was more concerned about his long term strategy to rule the SNP.
William Wallace spirit? He won a single major battle then got gubbed.
Magnificent companies to their knees? I didn't realise that Brown and Darling are directors within the banks - at least not then.
Alex Salmond as lifelong leader? If you want that go to North Korea.
Scottish banks conquering the world - aye right.
Nice to see a bit of patronism however :)
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Is'nt incipient spelt with a "c "?
I do hope that you all availed yourself of this scary piece of information
[Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]
Its so good to know that prudence has been the watchword of Albania, Lesotho, Namibia et al, BUT not that of the UK or the US.
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#118 Brownedov
A good point well made concerning what has actually been happening so far as the European Union and eurozone response to the financial crisis is concerned.
Following media coverage of the financial crisis in the francophone world inevitably leads one to conclude that media coverage in the anglophone one, particularly the British end of it, is to be taken with a very large grain of salt.
The notion that a state which is outside the eurozone is leading the eurozone requires to be examined closely. The best way to do that, I suggest, is to turn to the francophone world for your information, those of you who are capable of doing so. It is on your computer. Try it and see. It is a revelation, and a profoundly instructive and sobering one.
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118 WeeScamp
That explains everything except why all the social market economies on the Continent are also bailing out banks left, right and centre. Let's concentrate now!
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It is a lesser known fact that by simply adding the words, "it is of course fairly certain" or "it is of course obvious" to the start of your post, that this instantly makes all subsequent comments incontrovertible and irrefutable.
Regardless of how flawed, ill-informed or presumptuous those comments are.
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126. I didn't know Christine Grahame posted on this board.
FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEDOOOOOOOOOOOOM!
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#124 Anglophone
Educating apparently monoglot denizens of the anglophone world is a rather time-consuming business, particularly the English, whose mindset is rather an obstacle to enlightenment.
I merely dispose of you by directing you to the francophone world, where enlightenment awaits the educable. France, for all its wonders, retains a certain post-imperial franco-centrism, which must be experienced in situ and within its culture to be fully appreciated. Nevertheless, so far as Scots are concerned, it is a valuable and useful counterbalance to anglocentrism, which, of course, is alive and well, as is only too apparent from much of the content of this discussion forum.
As for overseas possessions, I recall observing the Falklands War from the United States. The American perspective was most instructive. As for France's remaining overseas possessions, it has quite a little collection. Where do you think the European Space Agency launches from? A French territory in South America. The DOM-TOMs can easily be looked up and tuned into from your computer. Assuming a fluency in French, you should find this instructive. Tuning in to the media of New Caledonia may be particularly worthwhile. You are unaware of it? It is a sort of smaller New Zealand. The French are holding on to it like grim death, much as the English are holding on to Scotland. I leave you to search out the details on this if you are at all interested.
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Re #119 northhighlander
You should read my post more carefully before jumping to conclusions.
I did not say at any point that England was responsible for all our problems.
I said that independence was about self-determination, and the negativity used by the proponents of the unionist viewpoint was designed to make the people of Scotland think they were unable to run their own country.
I do not blame the English for the current state of Scotland, but I do believe that the people of Scotland have the ability to run their own country and will happily point out the 'politics of fear' used by unionists.
As to the current crisis, and your contention that nationalists have been unable to answer 'the real questions', I find this a curious position given that the Scottish Government have had no say over the decisions that got us here. What you seem to be asking is for Scottish politicians to solve a problem created on Westminster's watch with of course, no real power to do anything about it.
I also find your statement about 'begging bowl stuff' strange, surely it highlights the difference between what we have a real government - do you think GB has 37bn down the back of the sofa in No. 10 or AD has 700bn in a safe at No. 11, no they raise money the way all governments do, by mortgaging the future. Unfortunately, this isn't an option for the Scottish Government, so we have to go cap-in-hand to Westminster because, like school-kids, we get our allowance and that's it unless we go begging for more. We shouldn't be ashamed, we should be annoyed !
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Joke going around Holyrood:
What's the capital of Iceland?
About 58 pence.
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the bloggers who believe that Europe is the answer to all our problems are living in cloud cuckoo land. This so called European solution is nothing of the sort.
It was only adopted when it was agreed individual governments would fund their respective bail outs themselves. This is going to cause more problems for the Euro as Govt debt levels increase across Europe, making worse the disparities in debt and inflation levels already there. This will make it more difficult to create an interest rate policy suitable for everyone.
The crunch in govt finances isn't going to make it any more popular to transfer more money to Brussels in an attempt to help poorer countries with the consequences of the global slowdown
Without their own currencies to take some of the strain, higher unemployment is inevitable.
At least in the UK with our own currency floating on exchanges, ability to set interest rates and a Treasury able transmit funds where ever they are needed within a single tax system, we stand a better chance of coming through this.
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Re #124 anglophone
whew, what a rant ..... not sure what it was meant to signify, but if you enjoy listing historic empires, who am I to judge?
I like a stroll down memory lane as much as the next man, but I don't see the significance. We are not talking about old empires, but the current situation. I was making a point by drawing a parallel
So why do you want a union with Scotland?
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#129 Anglophone
The French Government's measures, for example, are not identical to the UK bail-outs which consist in massive recapitalization/part-nationalization plus partial guaranteeing of savers' deposits. Your view of Europe is somewhat simplistic and, well . . . anglophone.
Concentrate now. Tune into the francophone world, if you can, and become better informed.
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128 Anglosaxophone
Nice to see a measured post. I would agree with you that the French media will be covering this very differently...probably wasting no time in blaming the Americans and their sub-prime mortgages. It's probably ancient history now but BNP Paribas was the first bank in the whole of Europe to throw up its hands and shout aggghh l'argent toxique when this all started.
It's inevitable that the the UK media will see things from a UK perspective, probably exaggerating the importance, in the mind of the listener, of the UK's role in re-establishing stability. I would find it very hard to believe that the French media would be any more objective about the role of France in riding to the rescue, the French being fairly keen on their own self-image (300 years worth of evidence available on request).
The French do also have a more balanced print media in that there is a greater spread of political persuasions in its newspapers and it it not so in the grip of tub-thumping nationalistic tabloids. It's reasonable to assume that respectable left-wing French papers will take a very different angle to say...the Daily Telegraph. This is great. Variety of opinion is the stuff of life but the trick in my view is to treat opinion as just that that...opinion rather than fact.
As someone who had actually heard of Paul Krugman before yesterday I would say that he is someone who is well worth listening to. Informative and very, very funny. His website with its spoof cartoon strip "The Vast Left-Wing Conspiracy" is a case in point.
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#87 Major_Stishie: Difficult to reply to someone who managed to twist my point slightly without actually addressing it. Still, I'm grateful that you conceded my right to an opinion. Watch you're not thown out of the SNP for that!
What sane person could read through this blog and not suffer a "dizzy turn" trying to follow the fantastic meanderings of Nat posters?
I don't think I have ever knowingly disrespected a dissenting view, while my tolerance to abuse it like a duck's tolerance to water on its back.
#96 cynicalHighlander: I didn't say Brown/Darling were the only ones capable of rescuing the situation. The fact is, they are the only ones in a position even to try. And therefore we should support them in the national interest despite our reservations. I'll happily hang them from lampposts when we're back to "normal" politics.
You see, I don't have a party position to defend, therefore I have no opposition to fear. I can make my own objective judgement, however flawed, on events as they happen. You should open your mind a little and try it. You might even find a little pride in the fact that Britain, via two Scots, is leading Europe back to stability. Ach, but ye kent their faithers.
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133 Googlehoo
If you want to go and mortgage your own future to prop up your banks then be my guest. I would imagine that the terms from Central Government are significantly softer. It always leads back to the question of what an independent Scotland's sovereign debt rating would be. I'm surprised that the Great Economist hasn't come up with the answer to this one...unless it's bad news of course.
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I see the brigadier has arrived. Fortunately, I have no time for his charming company today. More rants, I expect. Do try to keep the noise down. The neighbours will be complaining.
Good day to you all.
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132 Anglosaophone
Have I got this right, imperial possessions are a good thing provided that they are French? This allows us revel in La Gloire of launching space rockets from a little piece of South America. Think you might have been smoked out too easily there?
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136 Googlhoo
Sorry that you don't follow the line of argument. I'll try to simplify
Firstly,why are the English always accused by people like you of being imperialists? Everybody did it. That was the point of the list...was it news to you?
Secondly, since when did being in a union equate with being a colony. Quick trip to the dictionary for you I think!
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Anglosaxophone, googlehoo et al;
Your ceaseless incomprehensible nationalist jabbering, your teary-eyed desperation to win even the most irrelevant of blog-points and your inexhaustible determination to deny the death of your all-encompassing, infinitely flawed and always-doomed-from-the-start cause for "freeeeeeedom!" is a wonder of this modern age.
Purely for the joy it brings to my life, I thank you from the very heart of my bottom.
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Re #140 anglophone
I have to say that I would rather mortage my future for Scotland than for GB Plc.
Of course, an indepedent Scotland's sovereign debt would be high just now as a result of our current financial position, courtesy of ........ Wesminster !
I love the way the unionists are throwing mud at the SNP about the current situation when it's the unionist government that got us here
You guys are a hoot, but you really need to get a grip .....
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Reluctant-Cowpat, I do not usually lower myself to attacking people personal on these blogs but you are worth the exception.
I do not read your posts, but have noticed you never seem to be off your computer.
I would suggest you limit your input to allow other people to contribute who might have more constructive debate.
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#115 - you think that not being in the Union would have stopped Scots getting into debt? Really??
#116 - the English didn't rule the wrold. The British did - Scotland made a pretty penny out of her involvement, and Scots especially were every where, running the show.
#64 - troll or extracting the urine? Can't quite decide......
Mary Queen of Scots? leave her where she is. Why would she want to come back here, dead, where she wasn't wanted when she was alive??
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Re # 143 anglophone
Thanks for simplifying, it saves me falling asleep during your ramblings.
What's the difference between the empires you list and the current situation ........ time. You're talking history, I'm talking now.
Come back to the light (and the here and now) and take a look around. What's the difference between a union and a colony? when one part of the 'union' has 85% of the vote, very little .......
As the saying goes, if it waddles like a duck and it quacks like a duck ......... it's a duck !
as an aside, I'm still awaiting an answer as to why you want a 'union' with Scotland ....... just thought I'd remind you old boy !
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Re #144 Reluctant-Expat
Wow, just what I wanted, someone who doesn't live in Scotland telling me what I should be doing .... I can see where your unionist leanings come from.
By the way, nice reasoned argument there :-)
Rant on dude !!
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Re 137
Having perused the french and german media it is interesting to not e how they report the Crisis.
The Germans do give credit to Brown / Darling for leading the European response. More than the Scots will do!
The French rather unsurprisingly have a typical french take.
Other countries media to appear to recognise that the UK played an important role in the events of the last few days.
It is also important to note that the London Stock Exchange is regarded by all as more important than their national exchanges.
The questions that really need answered in this debate remain.
The Banking insitutions that Salmond would have regulated more tightly had he had the chance are actually UK comapnies, probably more accurately described as European institutions. they needed to expand to survive, I don't remember Salmond criticising this at the time.
How could we practically regulate companies listed on the London Stock Exchange? These companies would have to obey the rules of the exchange they are listed on. So how would Salmond have stopped short selling on an exchange outside his control? Are we having a scottish exchange instead? Would these companies want to be listed on it?
Countries would be charging to our rescue, we wouldn't be like Iceland would we?
We would join the Euro immediately, what would that cost Scotland? It is Doubtful if we would meet the criteria but if we did why would we want to join?
We have done okay outside the euro, better than most inside I would argue. But I suppose it would be the only option after seperation? We couldn't keep Sterling, such a basic symbol of the Union could we?
A lot of basic questions that really need answered.
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145. Your little outburst would have earned you a blog-point or two.....if it wasn't for one wee matter:
Didn't Salmond say he would have borrowed #100bn just to save a certain Edinburgh-based bank?
That alone equates to a debt measuring a massive 85% of Scotland's GDP.
And Salmond seriously expects us to take his economic credentials seriously?
(By the way, Brown's solution only involved putting #11bn of our money into HBOS.)
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145 Googlehoo
Never mind being a hoot. Sovereign debt rating is about the ability to raise new funds on the money markets, not about inheriting your share of the UK national debt. If you don't understand these things then don't get involved in debates before you've done some background reading.
I have no objection to Scottish Independence if you can persuade ordinary people that it would in any way change their lives and get them to vote for it in a referendum. To succeed in this you are going to have to prove either....that you are in the grip of gross oppression and that freedom is worth any price or, that people will somehow be better off.
The first is difficult to put over when you are so well represented at Westminster, hence the need to keep pushing at the "visceral dislike of the English" buttons. The second is becoming harder to prove by the day.
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#122 Blackivar
Why is that some posters on all sides of the argument never have the courtesy to quote user ids as well as numbers in their responses? It really is tiresome to have to sort back through all the previous comments to see if the reference is to oneself.
You make a few valid points re greedy bankers, but I note that you studiously avoid the topic of Prof. Krugman's views which was the nub of my #118 and ignore regulatory issues which are perhaps unmentionable in current US politics.
Then you take my last sentence which suggests that although it is outwith Scotland's power to change anything right now it is reasonable to consider what a Scotland with fiscal autonomy might do and presume that's a pro-nat rant with your: "I do so wonder where this notion that left to their own devices people in this country would run everything better and not fall fowl of the global economy." et seq.
#125 Wee-Scamp
"It is of course fairly certain that an independent Scotland would have adopted a more European approach based on what is loosely known as social market economics."
I'd tone "fairly certain" down a little to "probable but not proven", but otherwise agree with your post. We are talking "futures" here, where nobody has an infallible crystal ball.
#128 Anglosaxophone
Thanks, and I agree that the Francophone media are worth looking at if you have the language skills. It's a pity that BBC's Monitoring Centre in Caversham has dropped off this website's radar, as it used to provide useful reports of what the world's media were saying but presumably has been cut drastically.
I'm off out now but will hope to look back early evening.
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#139 brigadierjohn
Fair comment and although you seem to cling to the union a little more than you care to admit, you're possibly as much of a floating voter as we have on this blog.
I'd certainly be interested in your response to my #118 and Blackivar's #122 in response to it. I promise to reply in a measured way but it will likely have to be early evening, as I say in my #153.
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This appeared on a post in the Herald, to my mind it sums up the current position
"We are where we are because of the actions of the Labour party and not because of our supposed inferior nationality."
That is the substantive truth amongst all the lies. Let it speak for itself.....and it will.
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Brownedov, I wouldn't bother posting anymore.
googlehoo apparently does not accept the opinions and views of anyone who doesn't live in Scotland right this very second.
As you've lived overseas for a lot longer than me, I dread to think how insignificant he thinks your opinions are.
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Re #151 Reluctant-Expat
Thanks for almost awarding me blog-points, I'm almost over the moon. BTW, how do you spend these blog-points of yours?
Ah, the classic mistake - assuming that everyone that wants an independent Scotland believes Alex Salmond is god. You know what they say about assuming .......
and while your assuming, I also note that you enjoy the assumption that Scotland would have been in this position if we had an been an independent nation over the last decade or two ...
Oh, and BTW, expat? as in 'don't live in Scotland'? thanks for playing !!
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148 Googlehoo
Sorry that you're getting irate...you'll be capitalising next. I find it difficult to seperate the "now" from the "then" as one has to be spectacularly ignorant of national history to live entirely in the present.
When did I say I wanted a union with Scotland? It is the status quo whether we like it or not and I think that it has mutual benefits that would make dismantling it a difficult case to prove at the moment. I'll try to explain why if you have the attention span.
The success of the UK in the past 300 years has rested on political stability. It is by far and away our greatest asset and has allowed us to escape most of the political turmoil that periodically engulfs the Continent. Without stability there would have been no financial base, no industrial revolution, no peaceful transition to constitutional monarchy and mature democracy.
Thinking about it, it is hard to believe that such stability could have existed without the Union. Without boring you it is possible to postulate three or four events in the 18th and 19th century over which England and Scotland could have gone to war. In the 20th Century, the Norway that nats always hold up as an example, was invaded and brutally subjugated by the Nazis. An independent Scotland adjacent to Hitler's biggest rival...a tempting target don't you think (ask the Dutch about Hitler's attitude towards neutrality).
So that's it. Boring old peace...you'd miss it if it was gone. That is the Union Dividend in my view and without it? It's quite possible that we wouldn't even be in a position to have this debate.
Is this relevant now? Has history ended? Who knows.
By the way, on your other point. If you were a colony you would hardly be participating in the colonial power's own central government would you? The 85% argument could be applied to any major city in the UK. Not really grounds for converting yourself into the Balkans is it?
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#152.
Anglophone.
It did not take you long to play the 'race card' didn't it now? First we are not represented well at Westminister. Is that your idea of democracy? England alone has hundreds of seats while Scotland has fifty-nine? Ah the benefits of the Union. England will lead the way because Scots can't be trusted themselves. Is this why certain English MP's had problems with Scots apparently being over represented in cabinet? It appears the English have issues against the Scots... Ah another benefit of the Union. Scots are not an issue unless they actually get somewhere... To be honest I have seen little anti-Englishness in Scotland compared to what I have witnessed in England over recent years. England got one terrible deal after devolution, don't blame us Scots though for using our powers to better ourselves. Is that why you have a chip on your shoulder? "Darn, those Scots are slowly phasing in free perscriptions. There trying to create English resentment towards them!!!" Mate, come to Scotland for holiday more often. Whatever. These is no problem between Scots and English, Scottish Independence has nothing to do with oppression or anything of that nature and quite frankly it is plain annoying when someone involves race, this and them into the debates.
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Re #152 Anglophone
Thanks for the lesson I almost needed.
Perhaps you would like to consider the impact of the proportion of the GB debt that Scotland would get on our ability to raise finance, unless of course you are proposing that Scotland does not get any of this debt on independence ....... if so, then I'm sure we would be happy to face the money markets.
On the other hand, if you believe that our current financial position has no bearing on our ability to raise international finance, then perhaps you want to do some research yourself.
Still waiting on the 'union with Scotland' answer ............. I know it's a tough one, so I'll give you some time
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155. Oh, so that's the substantive truth among all the lies.
Thank you for the enlightenment.
(Off you go back to the Herald with all the other children, there's a good lad.)
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Re #158 Anglophone
Wow, I don't even know where to start, so many assumptions, so little time ........ the success of the UK for the last 300 years has rested on political stability ...... it has been our greatest asset ..... saved us in WWII (nothing to do with the English Channel then), so it's the union or we would all be speaking German eh?
Having said all that, I respect that fact that you have put forward an argument for the union, it is refreshing to hear from someone who at least is willing to argue for it rather than just put down what those who want independence have to say.
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#158.
Anglophone.
It's true that the Union between England and Scotland created some sense of stability between our two countries. However it did not start out that way or, shall we ignore what happened because history does not agree with your comment? I believe there were quite alot of problems that was created by the Union, am I right?
History should not be forgotten. It was our past, but we should never allow our past to decide our future for us. The future is what we make of it.
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160. And the search for blog-points continues.
To hell with relevance, damn you!
You glossed over Salmond wanting to burden Scotland with a #100bn debt just to save HBOS.
Maybe you would like to comment on that?
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158. At 1:06pm on 14 Oct 2008, Anglophone wrote:
The success of the UK in the past 300 years has rested on political stability.
Excellent comment, even if I don't agree with som of your other points.
159. At 1:13pm on 14 Oct 2008, Thomas_Porter
Re the free prescriptions. It is a point of contention with many people in England. Personally, I'm happy to pay at the moment since I can afford it, but I agree that people on long-term medication should get theirs free.
Nationalist politicians in Scotland and Wales DO use the prescriptions as a lever between Scotland/Wales and England, although in a subtle manner. It causes a certain amount of political instabilty, and although not enough on its own to cause any serious problems, add it into other areas and you have what you want - at least from a political point of view.
If you want your country to be independent, then you want to destablise the status quo. If you fail to do that then voters will not be bothered.
The past few days have been interesting. Gordon Brown actually looks competent, whereas Alex Salmond appears to be lacking a little bit of confidence, which is unusual for him.
Remember that a lot of voters do not spend time looking deeply into issues - they look at what is happening at the present time.
I don't think it will prevent Labour from losing Glenrothes, but the SNP dare not fail to capture it.
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#161 Reluctant-Expat @ 1:19pm
Well thanks, it is a long time since anyone called me a "lad"
It is noticeable, with very few exceptions, how folk who appear to be supporters of the union are reveling in this current financial crisis. It is almost like a wave of relief. I would be very cautious of crowing too soon. Apart from the appalling poor taste to take pleasure in what will undoubtedly have a severe impact on ordinary folk, as they say we aint out of the woods yet. The markets are so volatile that it could easily be several weeks before we see if the "rescue" plan is successful, lets all hope it is. Even if it is then there is a recession coming as a direct consequence, unemployment will rise, we will see inflation rising significantly.
It is also of note that within a short while people will start to query how we got here, and regretably the Labour government will have to take a fair share of the blame for the crisis we are in. So enjoy the moment for it will pass
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Re 164
are you still here ...... don't you have a country of your own to annoy?
As you may have seen from previouls posts, I am no apologist for Alex Salmond, so no, I don't want to comment on it.
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#162.
Googlehoo.
Anglophone can not suggest that the Union stopped Nazi Germany from invading Britain. The Americans provided the Allied Forces with the numbers to defeat Nazi Germany, also D-Day was the largest gamble during World War Two. Nazi Germany had sifficient fire power to repel the Allies invasion. Propaganda led Nazi Germany to believe that there were two invasion forces and kept back reserves in-wait for the 'larger' invasion force to come, which never did. Did the Union win World War Two? No, the Americans and clever propaganda methods used won the war.
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139. brigadierjohn
"You might even find a little pride in the fact that Britain, via two Scots, is leading Europe back to stability"
I would change your stability for recession and austerity.
Since these two "hero's" help the UK into this mess as they have been in power for 11 years for them to come to the rescue like the Lone Ranger and Tonto is despicable.
Ten people who predicted this.
"Here is a question Mr Cable’s posed to Gordon Brown, then Chancellor, during Treasury Questions back in November 2003: “The growth of the British economy is sustained by consumer spending pinned against record levels of personal debt, which is secured, if at all, against house prices that the Bank of England describes as well above equilibrium level. What action will the Chancellor take on the problem of consumer debt?”
Mr Brown did not answer how he would solve the problem, merely replying that: “We have been right about the prospects for growth in the British economy, and the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Cable) has been wrong.”
http://timesbusiness.typepad.com/money_weblog/2008/10/10-people-who-p.html
The average (whatever that means) inflation in the UK is now 5.2%
Here's a personal calculator to try mines 8% I would be amazed if anyone in Scotland could class themselves as average.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7669072.stm
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Neil_Small147:
Mate, in the words of Expat it appears you are creating a conspiracy that Nationalist politicians are using perscriptions to create English resentment towards them. England would hate the fact that Scotland/Wales get free perscriptions, it does not matter to them who introduced the system. Just the fact we get something and they do not is enough. Free perscriptions, including the life saving drugs is something they want because they feel its important. Scotland/Wales having the privilage is not the problem at all.
I'd like Scotland to reclaim her Independent status. However I do believe that this choice is personal and should come from the heart and mind of an individual, rather then arguements made through debates. Therefore I do not believe in destablising the status quo for political gains, but I will happily point out the flaws to create a better way of governing the country. Besides the voters do care. Did we not vote for our own Parliament?
I'm not suprised Alex Salmond appears to be lacking confidence. His arms are tied and the country that he wants to see thrive happens to be getting a battering from global issues. The lack of ability for Scotland to move around problems we have seen over the recent months is something I would argue to change. Our First Minister, Labour, Nationalist, Tory, it does not matter the party they represent but they should be able to do more to help the Scottish economy.
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Anglophone
You're having a good day!
A small point re your earlier point - "why all the social market economies on the Continent are also bailing out banks left, right and centre."
I think the answer lies in the difference between capitalisation and liquidity. Hence, Canada with the strongest banking system needing to provide dollars for their system.
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Does anyone seriously think RBS and Bank of Scotland would have grown at such an extent without backing from the City of London - this presumably would not have been on the table had we remained a sovereign nation.
There appears to be as many small & large sovereign nations facing an unsettled future in this economic maelstrom known as the credit crunch - most economic experts predict the hardest landing of all will be felt by the worlds soon to be 2nd largest economy.
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Does anyone seriously think RBS and Bank of Scotland would have grown at such an extent without backing from the City of London - this presumably would not have been on the table had we remained a sovereign nation.
There appears to be as many small & large sovereign nations facing an unsettled future in this economic maelstrom known as the credit crunch - most economic experts predict the hardest landing of all will be felt by the worlds soon to be 2nd largest economy.
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Why do the Unionists disregard the state of the un United Kingdoms economy.
As of June 2007 the UK National debt was 10.45 Trillion Pounds, yet the total earnings from international trade amounted 2.13 Trillion Pounds.
Now due to the Treasury manipulation of Economic figures, there is little evidence of actual figures for the year 2007/2008. The reluctance of the Treasury to have open conversation on the financial position of what is our Three Nations one can only be placed in the justified calculations based on past performance.
During the dictatorship of Gordon Brown, things have turned poor with the end of the credit line, now becoming a reality. On my calculations, based on three years debt increase, our entire external debt has risen to a staggering 12.1 Trillion Pounds.
Scotland which has had a stronger economic base relative to the geographical size of both our Population and relative Population. This takes us to the point which convinces many that OUR SCOTTISH BANKS where taken advantage of at a critical point by Gordon Brown to attempt to destroy the threat of the most successfull and potentially largest part of the UK Economy after the recent announcements of unlimited Oil Reserves in the Northern Atlantics Triangular Oil Fields, which will be shared by Scotland,Iceland and Ireland.
These relatively small countries, stand to share wealth that will equal the Oil Fields of Iran. Of course the small populations of the three countries will enable individual citizens to be amongst the most wealthy in the world. The facts are clear and the actions of the Brown London Government are obvious. They are only capable of producing an Earnings to debt Ratio 1-7.
A ratio that leaves them unable to provide basic services to their population, and massive unemployment levels that could see as many as 4.8 UK people unemployed out of 10 employed. Of course that is based on a UK without Scotland current and future growth.
The biggest concern that every person on this forum will need to face up too, is just how long will this forced Nationalisation go on for. Brown has conveniently not mentioned a time scale or a limit to participation. One fears a near bankrupt government in london would be tempted to syphon off earned funds, similar to the actions of Robert Mugabe. Make no mistake Gordon Brown does have many of Mugabes Traits.
His insecurities and refusal to adhere to the Democratic Process and the need to create divisions within his country, to prolong his term in office are indeed frightening. Put these points together with his obsession of monitoring and subjugating the population of the Three Nations would never have been possible just twenty years ago.
Brown has all the bad sides of the meglomaniacs like Pol Pot, Stalin and Kym Yong.
Fear is his greatest enemy.
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#104 onwards at 15 min intervals … as so often your assertions are simply wrong, but I see that your personal attacks continue un-stemmed by fiscal reality or any other internal moderating influence: such as conscience or scruples.
Its sickening the way in which the unionists are pouncing on the financial downturn - even though it has exposed the weakness of the UK financial system that they have spent the last x - decades defending and proclaiming as our ultimate financial defence rather than our downfall.
I must say this looks like 'boom and bust' to me! Well done that man. Perhaps, after the full-blown recession Gordon has led us into, there may be a few unionist posters on these boards honest enough to admit that the games up - and that Brown has no financial qualifications whatsoever ... rather like our bellicose expatriate friend here.
If it helps you get through the days - keep on predicting the downfall of the SNP, just remember it has become something of a 'national sport' for Scottish Unionists of all stripes ... and not one of them has been right yet.
Glenrothes looks good for the SNP (they only need a swing of c14.3% as opposed to over 22% which they received in Glasgow East).
The 2009 election look good also.
Remarkably enough, so does the 2010 ‘General Election’, which may end Labour's dominance of Scotland for the last 50 years at Westminster.
Doom and gloom for sure.
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The bigger issue which those arguing for independence must tackle is not what has happened to the Scottish banks but the fact that the share of public sector which Scotland would inherit on gaining independence has increased massively with the bank bail outs and will increase massively as the UK has to borrow more over the next few years due to the impending recession.
By the way, I'm not convinced by Brown's plan. At worst, there is still a risk that it may not work. At best it works by pumping more credit into the system and we merely delay a bigger crash. It is inevitable - we enjoy a far greater standard of living than our wealth creation actually justifies and we achieve this by borrowing. It can't and won't go on forever. I don't think this fundamental changes whether Scotalnd is part of the UK or not.
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I think this says it all.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00413/SCARFE_-_081012_413328a.JPG
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Thomas_Porter, 168,
"No, the Americans and clever propaganda methods used won the war."
Well yes but only when I'm enjoying a John Wayne movie... (and I do enjoy them with the exception of The Red Berets and The Conqueror).
In the real world I think the USSR had a bit of input too.
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168. And tomorrow, Thomas_Porter will read from the Ladybird Book of World War One.
Oh, how desperately you dig to find anything anti-British! How you whinge and wail if anyone does the same about Scotland....
By the way, the "propaganda" efforts you mention are scarily inaccurate.
1. It's called 'misinformation' NOT 'propaganda', dig out a dictionary.
2. The operation was to trick the Germans into thinking the invasion was at Calais not Normandy, NOT that there were two invasions. You are probably confusing yourself with the operations in the Med.
Jeez, for someone hoping to join the British Army (oh, the hilarious irony), you really are clueless about military history. I do believe that you'd be the Bn Dunce even in the Para's.
(And, pray tell, what has all this to do with the recently-deceased independence campaign anyway?)
174. Scottishrepublic.....er, what is the UK National debt again?
"10.45 Trillion Pounds"?
Fanblessedtastic! Are you from the same planet as Porter?
You'd make a fantastic advert for any party that isn't the SNP, you know that?
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175. Pattymkirkwood in for his daily dose of delusion, I see.
Once again, as you really are struggling to get a hold of the concept:
The joy you see from my posts is obviously not about the economy (do try and grow up!) but about the demise of this ridiculous independence campaign, driven by a weeble-wobble ego who's only concern is clearly his place in history.
His plans and claims have no basis in reality (a tactic readily adopted by every nationalist) and will inevitably lead to the humiliating failure of the Scottish economy and therefore the country as a whole.
His language has driven a vicious wedge through our society to the point where even our greatest Olympian has to "be careful what he says".
The SNP promised everything in their manifesto but have provided very little of substance: Better schools? Nothing. Better hospitals? Nothing. Better roads? Nothing. Better rail services? Nothing. Oh but we have free hospital parking, no one pound tolls on some bridges and the few remaining paid subscriptions are slightly cheaper.
And a whole lot of bitterness and ridiculous anti-UK campaigns involving border towns and chess-sets.
Luckily, I don't have to live in Salmond's Scotland for now but I will be returning one day. Hopefully the SNP will be back in the dark shadows by then.
The independence campaign was a non-starter and now it has hopefully met its maker. Good riddance to it.
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#177 cynicalHighlander:
Indeed. Or alternatively...
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Socialism?
Aye, socialism for the rich.
Never is a little finger raised to save jobs in real industry but billions can be found to fill the pockets of the big corporations.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
# 168 et al. Strange issue to raise - WWII?
Quoth Winston Churchill, high Tory and lifelong anti-socialist, "it was the Red Army that tore the guts out of the Nazi war machine". Ah Yes.
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Every time I read this blog, with all the condemnation of the "English" government at Westminster and the ineptness of Gordon Brown's 11 years steerage of the UK economy, I have to remind myself that it was Scots who voted him into office, and then kept on doing so.
Funny how little details like that always seem to get overlooked. Why is everything always someone else's fault, and never Scotland's?
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Given the dissonance on this thread, I'm pleased to be able to suggest a novelty which would appeal equally to SNP and Labour supporters
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Im not sure if anybodys posted this (and im not going back through all the posts to check) but the current financial situation is probably a bit of a blessing for Scotland. Whats that you think im crazy ...... well look at it this way. At least now this should not happen again which will be good for when we go it alone.
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#169 cynicalHighlander: I fully accept and respect your position that Brown was culpable, and also the references you quote in support. I therefore understand your frustration that Brown is to the fore now, with Europe and the US following his lead. I am closer to you on this than you think.
Please accept that I am no fan of Brown, but feel obliged to support him on this issue in the national interest, short term.
I think you may find that recession and austerity actually IS stability, compared to what we were/are facing.
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#180 'Luckily, I don't have to live in Salmond's Scotland for now but I will be returning one day. Hopefully the SNP will be back in the dark shadows by then.'
You take care of yourself min .... dont do anything dangerous like bungee jumping or anything so that come 2010 we can take the piss out of you on this blog. You can then be Permanent_Expat !! :o)} cheers
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#180 Reluctant-Expat
I'm glad you are looking forward to returning to an SNP run; and possibly independent; Scotland in the future. Perhaps you will be welcomed with open arms, but judging by your attitude, perhaps you will simply become a Labour toon cooncilor!
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184. No, it was the Americans and their propaganda alone. No-one else fought in the war apparently.
Certainly not the millions from the Soviet Union, losing over 10,000,000 casualties.
Certainly not the 6,000,000 Brits suffering similar casualties to the entire US war effort.
We ickle Brits certainly didn't stop the Nazi advance with a battered air force two years before the Americans decided to join.
No, Porter, our resident military expert (with over a month's service in the Junior Soldiers, don't you know), says it was the Americans and their "propaganda".
Duh.
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#154 Brownedov: I tend to agree with Blackivar, although your own willingness to cross swords with a Nobel Laureate deserves a round of applause.
Your reluctance to give Brown credit for anything does not suprise me, and is understandable. A number of bloggers (no references, just an impression I have) will move heaven and earth to credit Auld Nick before nodding towards our PM.
Hannibal "closed the ring" at Cannae and destroyed a Roman Legion. Norman Schwartzkopf did the same to the Iraqis on the Kuwait road (but was told to let them flee, thus letting them try again). Nobody told Stormin' Norman that he had stolen Hannibal's plan. Following a good example, if that was the case with Brown, is surely to be admired?
My position on the blog has always been that of questioner, not a defender of the Union or any other line. The Nats have utterly - and often comically - failed to convince me of any merit in their ambitions.
In recent weeks all semblance of credibility has dissolved amid ludicrous claim after claim, desperate attempts to deny the collapse of their idolised nations' economies, and - in defiance of rational belief - the Mary Queen of Scots fiasco.
When future historians pore of this period of turbulence I doubt they will even mention that an Independence movement existed in Scotland.
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#174 scottishrepublic: Does Brown display any of the GOOD sides of Pol Pot, Stalin and Kym Yong? I'm sure Mugabe is watching carefully for pointers.
Absolutely wonderful. Such a shame Leni Reifenstahl isn't around to film you reading it aloud.
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#180 again you offer no evidence to support your ludicrous claims, and nothing but condescension to anyone who happens to disagree with you - and you dare to call others somehow 'immature'.
The idea that independence is somehow threatened by thsi downturn is nothing but delusion. For unionists independence is weakened when the British economy (as a whole) is performing relatively well; however, for the same people the concept of sovereignty for Scotland is also weakened when the British economy is falling down about their ears. Somehow I do not think they are using a fair set of peramaters for their analysis.
The SNP has substantial achievements in power: as even fair-minded unionists would acknowledge - that is why Labour is so far on the back-foot and why so many Labour supporters openly acknowledge they prefer Salmond's government to that run by one of Brown's various cronies: be they McConnell, Alexander or the Gray man.
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189. Still clinging to that, eh?
Growing rumours around Holyrood that Salmond is looking for a way of postponing the referendum beyond 2010, involving minimal damage to his credibility.
Perhaps even he realises that 2010 is a no-hoper (although even I've known that for a looong time) and a defeat then would halt his core independence campaign for decades.
Maybe he can use the meantime to brush up on his economics. He's clearly not as sharp on the matter as he thought.
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#185 MalcolmW2
A fair point - I've always wondered at that, mself. My own guess is that Scots have simply been willing to give Labour the benefit of the doubt for rather longer than they deserved.
#186 oldnat
I think so, and us old Liberals too.
#187 rabbiehippo
I think I see what you mean. It's hard to imagine there would be any route but up once NuLab's lies and spin are gone.
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192. Always allow an encircled enemy a safe route out if you want to avoid major bloodshed, Brig. An army with its back to the wall will often put up a vicious fight to the death.
I'm sure Master Porter will back me up on this from his sickbed.
(There is an element of that among those few remaining nats who refuse to accept the case for independence has ceased to exist.....but that's most definitely where any similarities to 'brave warriors fighting fiercely to the death' ends.)
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#192 brigadierjohn
Thanks for your opinion, but if my #118 and #153 weren't fair comment but a "nat rant" then clearly there is little point in being other than partisan.
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#193 brigadierjohn
"Does Brown display any of the GOOD sides of ..."
If you believe "Duff" Gordon has a "good side", perhaps you would list a few of its features for others to comment?
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I just can't stop reading ScottishRepublic's post.
The UK has a debt of over ten trillion pounds, is looking at unemployment approaching 12 million and there are apparently unlimited oil reserves is the "Northern Atlantics Triangular Oil Fields" (if only!) according to this delightful dingbat.
Do we know where he gets this from?
Is it Niall Aslen, by any chance, as it very much sounds like his style of accounts?
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So let me get this right.
The unionists, labour, tory and lib-dem enjoy, and indeed, rejoice in the destruction of the one home grown industry that Scotland could claim to be a world leader in -notwithstanding the waste of wealth and jobs and reputation -
and all to ask Alec Salmond to prove a negative
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#194 pattymkirkwood
You forgot to add Murphy at the end but otherwise spot on.
Perhaps "Duff" Gordon has done no worse than the Tories re banking, but today we also have two humiliating climb downs on their authoritian policies over 42 days and secret inquests (according to Ms Smith due to the connivance of loony lefties like Lords Falconer & Goldsmith) not to mention that they're back to basics on inflation as UK inflation hit a 16-year high of 5.2% in September according to this website's Consumer inflation reaches 5.2%.
IMO, the question should be: Who could possibly do worse?
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This Guardian article from authors whose views I respect, certainly undercuts my previous argument for a rapid move into the Euro!
However, it may be that their point that "no monetary union has yet survived outside a political union" will drive Europe towards a proper Confederacy, as the failure of the Euro would be too horrendous to consider.
Interesting times!
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Part 1
Gosh, off I was earning the proverbial crust, and mayhem develops in cyberspace!!
I quote from my comment a few days ago on the previous thread:
"A distinction has to made between:
1 Countries that had robust regulation, and whose banks are not undercapitalised and not greatly troubled as a result of the banking crisis, and
2 pretty much every country now being shaken by the panic caused by the expectation of a long and deep global recession caused by the toxic debt issue, that is concentrated in the biggest economy of the lot the USA, but has been exacerbated by the UK’s situation.
Countries in group 1. are, for example, Norway, Denmark, Sweden, Spain, and Australia
The UK followed the deregulation herd and is definitely not in this group, but if it had adopted the regulation policies run by these countries, our banks (HSBC is an honourable exception) would not be in the dire state they are now. The politicians in the dock for this are both Tory and Labour, and in particular Gordon Brown.
By extension there is no reason why Scotland, if independent, could not have chosen to behave like those in the first group, clearly size of the economy is not a determining factor.
I am sure that the political weight of the City will prevent radical changes to the UK regime, so the sooner we leave the UK the sooner we can adopt a more conservative regime, either alone like Norway or under the Euro umbrella."
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Part 2
I then went on to suggest, in the absence of a definitive statement of policy on FS regulation from the SNP (naturally, as it is reserved to Westminster), that a newly independent Scotland would look to its comparable peers (i.e. not the UK), for guidance on various policy positions. These peers for example being Ireland, Norway, Denmark and Sweden, I could have added New Zealand, Australia, Slovenia, Switzerland, Austria, Canada, Finland, and Estonia
All of the above, plus many more, give good examples of worthy and less worthy policy behaviour which could be copied or adapted.
In terms of Financial Services regulation, these peers are, on average, conservative and prudent in their regulation. QED, I would therefore expect a higher probability that Scotland (independent) would have/will follow a majority prudent course rather than a less prudent deregulated course as practiced by the USA and UK (this probably has to do, sensibly, with managing corporate risk in the context of national risk – another topic I posted on a week or so ago).
Logically then the probability is that Scotland (if independent) would have been in a similar situation to these more prudent countries who, whilst having to act pre-emptively in the current truly exceptional circumstances, have not had to act anywhere like as broadly or as deeply as the UK has.
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2 hours ago the last post ..... theres gotta be a better way than this
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Perhaps we've collectively (except R-E of course) upset the mods - 2 hours plus to process a post now. If this ever sees the light of day, can anyone confirm if they had a posting problem around 23:00 BST yesterday?
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#198/9 Brownedov: Have you been chucked out of the Labour Party at some time? Your hatred seems visceral and far beyond political antipathy. I don't think I accused you of a rant, far from it. Yet you seem aggrieved and I don't know why.
Surely you see the funny side of a poster comparing Brown with the "bad" side of three genocidal despots? Mind you, with your view of Brown I wouldn't be so surprised if you agreed.
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#192 brigadierjohn
PS to my #198 re your: "Your reluctance to give Brown credit for anything does not suprise me, and is understandable."
Yes, I could certainly do no better than staunchly unionist W.S. Churchill's: "If Hitler invaded Hell, I would at least make a favourable reference to the Devil in the House of Commons."
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185. At 4:13pm on 14 Oct 2008, MalcolmW2 wrote:
I have to remind myself that it was Scots who voted him into office, and then kept on doing so.
Erm, wrong. I'm no SNP supporter - or Labour at present either, the fence is quite comfortable to sit on.
It was ENGLISH voters who allowed Labour in. If every seat in Scotland was Labour that would still not be enough to get a Westminister majority. It was several key seats in England that did the damage.
What was wrong however is Scottish MPs voting on English-only matters.
What is a bit surprising at the moment is how competent Brown appears. Cameron can't do much since he is in opposition to be fair, and cannot control events.
One thing still niggling me (and apologies to those who think I'm picking on him), but why did Alex Salmond say he would have got 100 billion to save HBOS, yet Brown makes do with about 10% or so?
Methinks that figure is going to haunt Alex Salmond for some time. I though the guy was an economist.
And then Mary Queen of Scots rears her ugly head again...........
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Part 3
Ireland as a peer and model for Scotland has much to commend and much to deplore, not too surprisingly.
I well remember as a boy in De Valera's Ireland visiting my Grandparent's farm and noting the huge difference in the legacy housing stock and those being built by the wealthy artisans, farmers and nouvelle professionals; far more salubrious than any I saw in the UK.
Ireland continued into the post De Valera economic awakening with an even greater interest in new build and improvement of the housing stock inherited from the bankrupt union with Great Britain. Too much of an interest. I remember, over the past few years, the many dire warnings of the doom of the Irish housing bubble that, amazingly, even surpassed that of the UK.
That a collapse would come was inevitable. And so it did and it started probably two years ago. The Irish banks whilst not being largely affected directly by the US sub-prime debt that cause Billions of losses to UK banks were acutely exposed to the domestic property market. This too, though different to the UK’s failure, was a failure of regulation. A failure that damningly was well flagged long before the collapse.
So, Ireland's Government and Ireland's regulators made a mistake, which it will suffer for over the next few years. Instead of the average Irish being 10-15% wealthier than we in the UK are, they may now be 5-10% wealthier instead
Can one superimpose this problem onto an independent Scotland?
No, for the following reasons:
1. the argument I attempted to expound in Parts 1 and 2 above,
2. because we are about 20% bigger by population,
3. the very different attitude of Scots to property and debt that that displayed by the Irish over the past fifteen years.
4. Our wealth of both natural resources and the engineering capability we have developed over the past thirty years to exploit it.
Can we learn from the Irish?
Indubitably, yes:
1. They have a huge global Brand, like Scotland does, but they know better how to market it.
2. They are much better at tourism than we are, though we have far more natural advantages.
3. They are delightfully entrepreneurial. We should send our youngsters there to absorb the optimism. While it may be dampened at the moment, be assured it will return full force again in a couple of years.
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Marc Coleman, a respected Irish economic expert, in today's Scotsman neatly fillets Jim Murphy and his unwise and intemperate remarks about the Irish and their economy.
In fact the Scottish Labour Party as a whole which who has been exulting in the desperate problems with Scottish banks have compounded its disgrace by deeply offending the Irish. For the record the Irish moved speedily to save their banks who have among other accounts the UK Post Office Savings Bank. Like much of Europe Ireland is in recession. It's recession however is less deep than the UK's and its economy is in a stronger position than the UK's and its bank bailout has less of an effect on its economy than ours has. Its economc growth rate is better than the UK's, has been so for two decades at least, and will continue to be better.
We now have Gordon "Big Debts" Brown on telling us that the bail out which has become neccesary due to his UK government's"fiscal irresponsibility" is an arguement against us getting away from all this and dealing with our affairs the way the small independent nations all successfuly do.
It's actually the small nations who are coming out of this best - as will soon become very evident.
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#207 Brownedov
The link to all BBC blogs went down - even direct links from their own news pages. It was as if someone had done the electronic equivalent of changing the lock on the front door!
Hopefully, things will improve after the US Election. The Americans seem to be fighting their election on all the world's blogs!
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#203 oldnat
Interesting article and good post. The authors have a point, although they ignore that the UK joining the eurozone would itself bolster confidence. OTOH, the EUR had been rising against both the GBP and the USD for a full year but has been falling over the summer as markets seem to have more confidence in the US and UK solving their problems quickly than the eurozone. After last week-end's deal, my guess is that situation will reverse, but there's certainly a case for waiting a quarter or two to see what develops.
I do think they ignore a major factor which have kept prices & wages down in the UK, Germany & Holland - cheap food and labour from EU expansion, but don't pretend to know what the long-term results will be.
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203. At 7:55pm on 14 Oct 2008, oldnat wrote:
"This Guardian article from authors whose views I respect, certainly undercuts my previous argument for a rapid move into the Euro!
However, it may be that their point that "no monetary union has yet survived outside a political union" will drive Europe towards a proper Confederacy, as the failure of the Euro would be too horrendous to consider."
It certainly does for the UK. It would be a large and influential member, but by the same token more constrained in the other economic levers it can deploy.
Ireland’s deficit stems from its low manufacturing base. But they are seeking to address this, even if it does mean they currently have considerable foreign domiciled operations providing employment.
This would be a big issue for the UK too.
However, Scotland would be less susceptible if it joined. It has more inherent manufacturing per capita than either of these two. Also in a number of fields Scotland is a world leader, e.g. to name a few Nano tech, life science, oil infrastructure and sub-sea.
As to your point about political union, that I have to say is no safe guard. The US is one political union but it didn’t stop the economic wasteland that is now know as the rust belt, or the mass migration of labour described so eloquently in some of the US’s greatest literature.
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#208 brigadierjohn
My #209 sums up my feelings for the man, although I would concede that I dislike him marginally less than Bliar, but it's a close call.
No, I have never been a member of the Labour Party or any other centralising party, although I was tempted as a callow teenager until the rise of Butskellism formed the cell which allowed the canker of NuLab to grow. Centralising old Labour or SDP I could just about stand, as I can the Tories. Centralising, Tory and authoritarian like NuLab I cannot - one of the reasons I have remained an expat longer than intended, the lies in '97 having been the final straw.
The one redeeming feature of Brown is that his arrogance will bring him down sooner rather than later.
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210 Neil_Small147
Since the "100 billion" seems to have been a stupid thing to say, I thought I'd check back on what he actually said - but found it difficult. A good source seemed to be an anti-SNP paper. The following is from the Scotsman - 14th October.
While I actually think he was mistaken to say what he did (since politics is about perception, not reality), I can't find a quote which has him saying "100 billion".
Has anyone got a link to the full quotation?
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#210 Neil_Small147
"Mary Queen of Scots rears her ugly head again"
Actually, she was quite bonnie - pity she was also spectacularly stupid!
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#187 ??? "Won't happen again"? (i.e. the crash).
In an "independent" Scotland? In Britain? In the EU? In the USA? Elsewhere?
I'll tell you something mate, It WILL happen again as long as capitalism is with us. Boom & slump or bubble and crash, however it's labelled it is inherent to that economic system.
Caveat: unless the current collapse is terminal of course! And who's to say it's not!
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Thomas Porter 168
Follow your point, but I'd say that Pearl Harbor and the Nazi invasion of Russia were the two biggest gambles taken in WWII - they were both "we win, or we've lost" strategies.
Agreed, Overlord was probably the biggest actual risk, but even failure could/would've resulted in making another match fixture. Or an A-bomb?
Anglophone 158
Even if Scotland was independent at the time, I cannot see the little corporal traipsing all the way across the North Sea instead of the Channel. In any event, I think Westminster would've taken a very dim view of such.
Anyway, I'm well off-subject!
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205. At 7:58pm on 14 Oct 2008, impeachblair
Good points. However, given the current situation, could Scotland actually afford to go through the required changes for full independence? The process is rather more complex and expensive than some people make out.
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When Scotland gets its independence, and I sincerely hope it does, can we get our 37 billion back - with interest?
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Well, the nats have their hats off,
no longer are they shouting about
Independence.
Time and events have healed the wound of the separatist.
Glenrothes or bust for the nats now!
The swinging chair has lost its momentum,
as the nats grasp the straw of reality.
Holding the Glenrothes election in Nov.....
will prove to be a sold choice, for the labour movement.
The SNP's confidence has been dented and the general public are more concerned about stability! rather than off the cuffs nationalist sound bites.
As Brown becomes the leader figure in the world of politics, the relevant choice of which party to support becomes clearer.
There might even be a vote of no confidence in this new ADMIN........before 2009.
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#201 loco - you've got that just about right there ... the way in which unionist posters are rejoicing as Their Government (led by 'Prudence' himself!) leads us into one of the biggest down-turns in financial history is astonishing.
It is their obvious glee at the thoughts of lost-jobs and lost-confidence in Scotland that utterly baffles me. I thought the unionists wanted to make a positive case for the future of Scotland ... not ruin the economy and then shout (with absolutely no evidence) "it would be even worse under those guys"!
#202 - Brownedov ... damn forgot Murphy! I highly forgettable figure in all fairness, my only real recollection of him is his laughable performance in the by-election coverage in Glasgow (he was near tears alongside Glen Campbell at times).
The odds for a repeat performance in Glenrothes look good. Perhaps they will send someone else this time after his last outing?
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Poor old Mary Queen of Scots, who fled to England for salvation.
If we give you your old bones back, the ones Alex keeps harping on about - see clue above - can we get our 37 billion back?
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From today's Scotsman
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Is the the Scotsman beginning to reassess its relationship with the SNP? I wouldn't have expected them to publish an article like this - boosting the importance of the SNP.
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Reluctant-Expat:
You wrote (#179),
"2. The operation was to trick the Germans into thinking the invasion was at Calais not Normandy, NOT that there were two invasions. You are probably confusing yourself with the operations in the Med."
I wrote (#168),
"Propaganda (misinformation to you) led Nazi Germany to believe that there were two invasion forces and kept back reserves in-wait for the 'larger' invasion force to come, which never did (because there was never a 2nd invasion force!)."
It appears I do know my history. I am suprised people pay attention to you, this is not the first time you have misqouted other comments. It's daft and immature and you really should stop.
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Yet another article in the Scotsman which is completely contrary to their previous policy!
I'll even buy it tomorrow!
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#221 Neil_Small147
"The process is rather more complex and expensive than some people make out."
Interesting point, but what is your evidence for this assertion?
The Czech/Slovak split would be a bad example, as Slovakia was primarily an agrarian area with many of its administrative functions operated from Prague, and had to create its government pretty well from scratch.
Obviously the collapse of Yugoslavia in civil war wouldn't provide appropriate comparisons.
Where else?
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#222 Jim_Thompson
Fair enough - we'll give you back your Trident system (76 billion) in exchange and you get a great discount.
Of course we then end up owning a large part of the English banking system, but if that's what you want ........
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#230 old nat - what is happening at the Scotsman at the minute?!
I am currently living out-with the country short-term, as you have probably gathered from the timing of this post, and I must say the Scotsman producing such articles has wholly passed me by! Has it been going on for long?
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How can anyone possibly espouse the union under the terms that the Scottish economy is failing UNDER said union?
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Reluctant Expat,
Your throw away insults betray your credability. Try controlling your Pro Westmonster Trolling.
If you would like to see proof of the MASSIVE DEBTS OF THE WESTMONSTER GOVERNMENT PLEASE VISIT THE CENTRAL INTELLIGENCE AGENCY WEB SITE AND READ THEIR STATISTICAL RECORDS OF EVERY COUNTRY IN THE WORLD THAT IS INDEPENDANTLY RUN BY THEIR OWN PEOPLE.
I will not hold my breath waiting for your apology. That is if you remain a Unionist after you see just what a disaster Westmonster has created.
What really worries me about this whole affair, with Brown and Darling conspiring to undermine the Scottish Banking system is the fact that Scots in their frustration may resort to repeating the Irish Solution, when they defeated the entire English Armed Forces.
Browns betrayal could take us back to the days that many of us would dread to revisit. I certainly hope that David Cameron shows more moderate leadership, and recognises that the status quo is just not acceptable to the Scottish Nation.
Negotiation between Cameron and Alex Salmond are perhaps the only way that a solution can be found. The Scottish Constitution should not be on the table, and the English Constitution is definately not acceptable in any way.
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#234 scottish republic " the Irish Solution, when they defeated the entire English Armed Forces"
Erm....who wrote your history book?
Unless you are referring to the Nine Years War at the end of the 1500s but even then the Irish still lost.
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in post #234 Scottishrepublic wrote:
"What really worries me about this whole affair, with Brown and Darling conspiring to undermine the Scottish Banking system is the fact that Scots in their frustration may resort to repeating the Irish Solution, when they defeated the entire English Armed Forces."
Is is absurdly extremist posts like that which make many Scots (and others) harbour serious doubts about the question of independence, and in particular the maturity of some of those who propose it. You do your cause no good. The chances of an iceberg washing ashore in Hawaaii are greater than armed conflict between Scotland and England.
Similarily, how many times have I heard nationalists complain about the interchange of "British" and "English" by people in England, and yet here is a classic example of a nationalist doing the same. The IRA faught the BRITISH armed forces, not the English, and there were a good many Scottish regiments involved in the fighting. It is also historical fact that a large number of Scots were members of the Black and Tans. Inconvenient maybe, but true none the less. Others who like to call Trident an English weapon system need to adopt accurate language too. Sorry, Oldnat, but it is a British system, even if it is currently deployed from Scotland. There are a good many Scots who support the UK's possession of it, and English people who despise it. The divisions between Scotland and England are simply not as clear-cut as many on these boards like to imply.
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No 18 from oldnat
I know that my good friend will not mind if I amend his posting and thereby correct his mistake
He wrote
Give up your childish obsession with your pretendy wee Parliament at Westminster (other than for running English domestic affairs) and embrace Europe.
Should this not read
Give up your childish obsession with your pretendy wee Parliament in Scotland and embrace the Union as one nation.
I am sure that in his haste he made a wee slip and he will now be happy
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# 220 regmitchell
Just a point of order about WWII; the real battle against the Nazis was won by the Russians and not by the Brits or the Americans. The war in the west was basically a side show. Please check your history on this and not listen to the Hollywood and Ealing propoganda. I say this with the deepest of respect and not in the R-E mode.
Let's get back to reality here. Whether Scotland can survive the next few months financially is a moot point; it will survive as will Iceland and the USA. It is disgusting to see that some unionists are jumping about with glee that Scotland is having troubles just now. Try to remember that the UK is in trouble too. I wouldn't like the idea that an independent Scotland would be splitting its sides with laughter at troubles that England/Wales would have. A lot of Scots are either living in England/Wales or have family there. The British Isles is like a family; (most of us are cousins in one way or another) but that doesn't mean that we have to live in each others pockets. Family can and should live apart from each other with mutual respect. So, even if, we Scots are having trouble; so what? I would still take independence any day, financial crises or no financial crises.
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All political reporters, commentators etc should clearly state their own political allegiances on thier Blog pages - do you agree Brian? whats yours?
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It has been on Labour's watch this has happened. Rich of them to say that Scotland could not have afforded to bail itself out if it had been independent.
Mean while millionaire bankers leave posts with further wealth heaped upon them and pensioners go hungry and cold, well done Labour!
A McG
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#232 pattymkirkwood
The Scotsman phenomenon is new. I suspect it is in reaction to (?) many of its readers working in Edinburgh's finance industry.
It looks like the Scotsman's judgment is that its readers think that Labour has handled the process badly, to the detriment of the population of Fife and the Lothians.
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If Scotland was indepenedant would it have allowed such slack nay non-existent governmental management of the FSA?
To say that Scotland would be worse off is to assume that it would have followed the Brown fiscal mis-management path over the last 11 years. It is the lack of Westminster control that has resulted in this market/ banking mess, this is evident by the UK, which is a lot smaller than the US, being as worse off as the US.
It has been Brown's and Labour's reliance on the City to bolster the economy and allow Brown, at every budget, to bragg about the growing economy without him realising the weakness of its foundations.
We can only hope that the people of Glenrothes realise that they have within their hands to deliver not only a victory for the SNP and Scotland bbut also for the greater good of the UK, by voting against Labour and hastening the end of Brown.
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#224 pattymkirkwood
Point taken, but his recent promotion means he'll likely take a leading role in the Glenrothes campaign. Let's hope that also ends in tears.
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I wonder where the SNP would find the billions to bail out RBS and HBOS if Scotland were a nation state. 6 million people cannot support the impact of such large commercial entities, they could in fact hold the scots economy to ransom. I think the banking ferago is case proven that independance would not work as the economy cannot support such seismic shocks.
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#227 & #229 oldnat
"I'll even buy it tomorrow!"
Steady now, don't get too carried away. But I agree it's encouraging that they're considering their readership.
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#244 Vinanglais
The classic mistake you make is to assume that the present would have occurred, if the past had been different.
The banks HQ'd in Edinburgh were operating in a British marketplace, under British Government regulation (or lack of it).
Canada maintained the strongest banking system in the world, even though it neighboured the most toxic one.
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211 and friends. Impeachblair again blesses us with his wholly subjective, partisan and presumptive opinions which he tries very hard to project as solid fact.
Note barely a quantitative measure or statistic to be seen.
212. Sneckedagain, did you know Ireland is the only EU state that is in recession (two consecutive quarters of negative growth).
What does that say about the Irish economic model if it has buckled so readily? Salmond's 'Arc of Prosperity' continues to look as hideously flawed as the rest of his case for independence.
Point of note: The UK hasn't reported a single period of negative growth yet.
224. pattymkirkwood, have you read my reply to you at post 180? There it quite clearly highlights yours (and others) depressing immaturity believing anyone is happy the world economy is faltering.
I struggle to make it any easier to understand but here goes again:
We are enjoying the demise of the ridiculous, flawed and illogical independence campaign.
That you cannot grasp something that has been repeatedly stated in the simplest of terms, only corroborates the belief that you are really not that bright.
226. Oldnat: Out come some of the conspiracies AGAIN. The whole world really is out to get the nationalists, isn't it.
(That's not an example of paranoia in any way shape or form, by the way. No, Siree.)
228. Master Porter: Can you read your own posts? You do make me laugh. Bless you for that.
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#234, scottishrepublic [to Reluctant-Expat]
"I will not hold my breath waiting for your apology."
Please do.
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I just wonder, Brian, why we don't look back a few years, maybe sevral hundred years and look at one of the issues which contributed to the Act of Union - the fiasco of the Darien Scheme. Has the recent performance and outcome for two large Scottish financial institutions who have used up the capital in all senses of the word invested in them by Scots and others now likely to produce a similar reaction?
There are those, not all of an SNP persuasion, who interpret Darien as an act of sabotage by the London based financial institutions to force Scotland to its knees and beg to be part of the English Empire - we did of course join and flourish economically for long periods. Will we be persuaded to do the same again?
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#237 Ukingdom
I would suggest that if Tories like yourself from the Shires of England wish their Scottish cousins not to renounce the Act of Union, their time would be better spent persuading nice Mr Cameron and Aunty Annabel to devise a polity acceptable to Scotland rather than in denigrating the partial and stupidly asymmetric devolution achieved so far under the disagreeable rule of NuLab.
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#241 oldnat
"The Scotsman phenomenon is new."
Trying to be scrupulously fair, I have noticed the odd Scotsman article less stridently unionist than normal of late, and remarked on it in these threads. OTOH, two such in one issue is certainly encouraging.
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Big Numpty .... aka Reluctant Exlax ....
'Growing rumours around Holyrood that Salmond is looking for a way of postponing the referendum beyond 2010, involving minimal damage to his credibility.' how do you know about these rumours .... Do you work there ?.. Are you a labour member who lost his seat? a reporter for the Daily Record maybe? You keep trying to wind us up with this 'independence is dead' rubbish but were not the people you need to convince ... we know your a Labour stick of rock with ' I love Gordon' written inside you but youd be better off helping your comrades with election duties ... or have they disowned you as well .
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Gordon Brown wrote:
"no inspection without justification, no form filling without justification, and no information requirements without justification, not just a light touch but a limited touch."
Gordon Brown, Mansion House speech, 17 Jun 2004 wrote:
"I want us to do even more to encourage the risk takers"
Gordon Brown, CBI, 5 Jun 2006 wrote:
"Last year we set out radical proposals for changing the way we regulate: minimising the administrative burdens of regulation; and ensuring that the realities of regulation, as you experience them on the ground, are transformed -- by moving away from the old blanket approach, of 100 per cent form-filling and 100 per cent inspection that is inefficient and wasteful of your time, to a new approach based on risk… And I believe, too, we should consider how we can continue to extend our risk-based approach, applying the concept of risk not just to the enforcement of regulation, but also to the design and indeed to the decision as to whether to regulate at all… And we will take the fight on deregulation to Europe."
Gordon Brown, CBI, 28 Nov 2006 wrote:
"Progress if we invest in and nurture the skills of the future, advance with light touch regulation… stability through a predictable and light touch regulatory environment… I will be honest with you, many who advised me including not a few newspapers, favoured a regulatory crackdown."
The man that caused the problem and is now riding to the rescue using taxpayers money, which has already disappeared into the ether, all for political ends. Nick Leeson was pursued and jailed for bringing down one bank Brown has bankrupted the UK and is hailed as saviour, beggars belief.
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It is still amazing that the media and general public don't realise that the current 'financial crisis' is absolutely related to peak oil.
We are currently only seeing the very first effects of the oil peak. For those of you unaware of the concept of peak oil, it basically goes like this...
1. Economic growth is fully dependant upon 'cheap' oil. (I highlight cheap to distinguish from heavy/tar sand oils).
2. Everything we use is dependant upon oil (Food, Fuel, travel, warmth, every man made product on the planet.)
3. In the last 200'ish years, humanity has experienced a period of unprecedented growth based on the oil bonanza.
4. As the oil peaks, so the capital (note: money is just a promise to pay and is created through the giving of loans.) generated over the duration of the bonanza must be scaled back.
5. Indeed, with the outlook to the future being of oil decline, so the global markets must wipe out billions of global currencies. (Loans will not be made as global economic decline due to peak oil will mean that they cannot be paid back with interest.)
6. Inflation will rise as commodities become more scarce and unemployment rises due to businesses being unable to borrow and invest for future growth.
7. The economic decline is an unrelenting process. Oil will run out. We are, in the opinion of the vast majority of experts, already at the peak or maximum (oil production and supply against global demand.) 2006 to 2015 seems to be the consensus.
8. Oil and resource wars will be fought and indeed they already are.
If anyone is in any doubt about this then I suggest you do some research (it is easy to search 'peak oil'). Also, there isn't going to be any miracle cure, things are going to get a lot more difficult and we are only at the start. There will obviously be minor up's and down's in stock markets, but importantly the general trend will be unrelentingly downwards.
Finally, why will governments and the press not tell you this? Easy, because it is devastating news to which there is no answer. What are they going to say after they have just told you that you are effectively done for and life as you know it is going to change out of all recognition?
Please educate yourselves and research the truth behind this crisis.
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#249 EastcoastIleach
Well said, although the "we" who signed up can hardly be described as the people of Scotland, who were never consulted as neither were the English people.
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No 237 Brownedov
You are absolutely right of course and few would disagree
Politicians come and go but the state remains
It was unfair to the Nationalist Party for Blair/Brown and Co to give them false hope, but then so much of what they touched has failed
They thought the Labour Party in Government would last forever and that they would always be the force in Scotland, yet again they were wrong. We all know the Union will remain despite their failures.
However, debates such as this have kept Brian employed, therefore some good has come out of it all.
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#253 cynicalHighlander
Excellent point. That's exactly what needs to be got across in precis to the (hopefully former) NuLab voters of Glenrothes.
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Great fun seeing the Mighty Economist making it onto the national news last night demanding more money and being even more than usually disingenuous. If there is an emergency need for funding then this should be provided...after all, this is what a union is all about.
The question for later though is why has this come about? Is it about budgetary indiscipline from the Scottish Government? Even in the context of current events a billion pounds is still a lot of money. Or is this something else? Please don't do the "we can't raise or own funds due to Westmonster(sic)" Whatever happened to the 3 percent tax varying powers, or would this be a tad embarrassing close to a by-election?
A question that I have posed before on these threads is why public spending in Scotland is so much higher than in the rest of the UK. This is about 1200 pounds per capita above the average. When you compare it to where I live in SW England (which suffers from below average incomes and a devastated manufacturing base), the total is around 2000 pounds per head less than in Scotland. Is there a real justification for this or is it just Danegeld to keep down the background noise?
I would normally be interested in hearing a reasoned response but I'm retiring from this fray for the moment. Shooting fish in a barrel is fun but not rewarding. It only remains to be seen if the Nats can regain their chutzpah and sell a new tale of double dealing and repression to the Braveheart brigade. Judging by the tired and emotional performance by President Tartaninajad last night, this may take some time.
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254. BoNG0_1
"2. Everything we use is dependant upon oil (Food, Fuel, travel, warmth, every man made product on the planet.)"
Thats why instead of bailing out the banks the money should of been directed towards the renewable industries.
How they managed to botch the bailout
The Bank of England has a lot to answer for. The competitiveness of British banks has been ruined
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article4944138.ece
"Secondly, the international competitiveness of Britain's banking industry is being destroyed. Nationalisation will cause undue caution and rigidity in banks' operations, while talented and experienced bank executives will seek to work elsewhere. In many cases they will emigrate.
New investors in British banking will be reluctant to come forward when the Government tries to privatise the assets it has taken from banks' existing shareholders. In the past 20 years Britain's economy has led the world in one, and only one, activity: international financial services. That leadership - and with it the prosperity of the City of London - is now in extreme peril. "
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#256 Ukingdom
"Politicians come and go but the state remains"
As I suggested in my #237, it will not long remain if unionists continue to believe the current polity is the best of all possible worlds and that the nations of the UK can be treated as recalcitrant children.
The NuLab apologists try fear, as many earlier posts on this thread show. It may just work with a few but not enough to stem NuLab's doom, I think.
You seem to suggest that Mr Cameron should take the Holyrood "toys" away, but I suspect that cunning plan would have its drawbacks, and in any event I doubt Aunty Annabel would let him.
Anyway, off out now but will look back in tonight.
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#258 Anglophone
See my #250 & #260 in response to Ukingdom's virtually identical argument and be grateful that in Glenrothes the SNP will likely rid Westmidden of another NuLab seat to the common weal. TTFN
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#258 Anglophone
I'm glad you'll be happy to see us go as we dare to be wealthier than thou; toodleoo-the-noo!
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Brownedov, as the number of pro-independence posters dwindles (and I refer to the unique posters not the blatant use of multiple usernames we have started to see), you are truly working overtime nowadays.
Change of subject: Not a Glaswegian myself but my heart is truly warmed by this report, even if the criteria seems to be a little strange (Warsaw, Antwerp, Beirut and Zurich?).
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#249
The act of the union.
The act of settlement.
The marquis of montrose, was the first name signed into the St. giles act of the covenant.
The marquis of montrose later changed sides and fought against the covenanters.
History is something we can all learn from,
but it would be folly to repeat any action that is of a separtist nature.
Mrs Grahame may well have a good point to bring back the remains of Mary queen of Scots, to Scotland and indeed, the act of settlement should be repealed.
Scotland is not a lesser form of part of the union, the new parliament can become the corner stone for Scotland, intergrating and helping to shape the union and the EU are the progressive measures we should have all learned from history.
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The Government is subsidising the banks to the sum of £37 billion. (37 thousand million pounds) and what they don't tell you is that
Labour have expanded the public sector by 1,000,000 workers by the sum of £25 billion + £5 billion in guaranteed pension contributions per year to the tax payer.
The black hole in public sector pensions stands at an estimated £1 trillion (1 million million pounds) which is funded by the private sector. With the economy in recession where is the money going to come from to fund public sector pensions.
The trades unions are calling for an increase in public sector wages to re-start the economy.
Increasing public sector wages will be a further drain on the economy as it is not wealth creating.
To re-start the economy, money has to be spent from the public purse and put back into the private sector whose taxes fund the whole economy. This generates wealth to help fund the over inflated public sector.
Workers in the private sector should not be discriminated against by this government. As workers in the private sector pay more in taxes (national insurance) into the economy than public sector workers it is only fair and proper that they should also receive a guaranteed final salary pension from the government.
Millions of people in the private sector are losing their pensions, yet still have to pay more in taxes to fund public sector guaranteed pensions. That is obscene discrimination by the government against private sector workers and must be stopped immediately.
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Oh yes reluctant expat you are most certainly not from Glasgow. Probably the Home Counties with your brand of petty fascism and misogony. Stick to the Daily Mail please.
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This is an unfortunate turn of events, both for those of us who are loosely English nationalists as well as the SNP supporters.
Wee 'eck is in a bit of a jam, and will be constantly reminded about 'the arc of prosperity' comment by his political enemies such as Brown/NL.
I would suggest that the problems of RBS and HBOS stem from their drift away from Scottish ideals of ethics, morals and far too much towards the American capitalist model.
A Scottish bank founded on principles such as the Co-Op (bank) would not have got into this mess.
This Englishman hopes that Salmond and the SNP can get back on course.
Scotland does not need England as long as it ensures it stays within the umbrellla of the EU.
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266. "petty fascism and"...what?!
And what exactly is "petty fascism" anyway?
Reason not to support the SNP no.1,583: Because draboy supports them.
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#265
In what way does a private sector worker pay more taxes compared to a public sector worker? Maybe what you mean is that public sector pay falls way behind the private sector hence less tax is paid by each individual employee? Me thinks you are making cheap digs at poorly paid staff who couldn't dream of ever seeing a fraction of the obscene bonuses those private sector employees have enjoyed while dragging this country to the edge of financial oblivion. It is all too easy to pick on the silent servants that keep you alive, educate your children (and perhaps yourself once upon a time, but maybe you feel let down in that dept - hence the angst?) and cart of your waste. A pay rise somewhere near to inflation seems perfectly reasonable to me?
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R-E. Are you Alistair Campbell in disguise ?
Ok then full blown fascist.
Reason No. 268 for not supporting New Labour/New Conservative/BNP -take your pick-Reluctant-Expat supports them.
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#269 Salmodella
I don't particularly see why public sector workers should pay tax. I thought their whole purpose was to receive tax...
You do sound like a bitter unison member by the by. Guess you listened to the Labour bitterness a few months ago and it changed your life for the bitterer?
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Looks like Brown's latest attempt to pull the wool over voter eyes RE: the union at all costs, is - as ever - a dismal failure.
Check out the 'Have your say' comments already coming in [link from
http://newsforums.bbc.co.uk/nol/thread.jspa?forumID=5497
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#271 #265
But they do pay tax so what is your point? They pay tax because they are employed and often in professions that many on this blog could not even dream to aspire to.
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As I am a sensitive creature, I have been sensing an increase in tension resulting from the current uncertainties produced by the global financial crisis resulting from irresponsibly primitive and inadequately regulated Anglo-American financial-services practices and have thought it best, therefore, to be rather more circumspect than I am naturally wont to be, so as not further to upset those of you who may be rather upset, as this would upset me in turn, and that would be upsetting. So there follows a simple account of the facts that I am bearing in mind as I go about observing the Glenrothes by-election, which, as you don't need me to tell you, is a somewhat different ball game, as you say - or is that your American cousins? - from the Glasgow East by-election. Not that the result will necessarily be different even though the political and economic environment in which it is taking place certainly is.
West Fife, as you will be well aware, has traditionally been a Labour stronghold, and for many years the area was represented by one Willie Hamilton, a brave soul who confronted the conservative monarchist UK state as a socialist republican and was, consequently, widely dismissed as an immature eccentric, as appears to be the fate of all who stand up to the received wisdom of that crumbling entity, although in the francophone world, to which allusion has been made in this forum recently, he would no doubt have been engaged with more rationally and with greater respect, for reasons which are not far to seek. A more unlikely upholder of the cause of New Labour one can hardly imagine. That would be why there are none of his type, one dares say. That is merely my impression, however. Feel free to ignore it and, if you are a supporter of the UK state, invite me to return to the kindergarten from which, as you will wish to aver, I have obviously escaped, as, despite my good intentions, you are probably upset. In Hamilton's day the Westminster constituency was known as Central Fife. When he retired in 1987, he was replaced by one Henry McLeish, who used to kick a ball about for a living, so they tell me - are they pulling my leg, as you say? - and subsequently became a UK overlord and then, following legislative devolution and the death of Donald Dewar, First Minister of Scotland until his resignation following an embarrassing expenses fuddle, whatever that may be.
The late John MacDougall succeeded McLeish as MP for Central Fife in 2001. In 2005 MacDougall was re-elected for the new constituency of Glenrothes, taking in most of the old Central Fife seat, but also parts of Kirkcaldy and Dunfermline East. In 2005 Labour had a majority of 10,664, on a turnout of just 37 per cent. They had 52 per cent of the vote. The Scottish National Party's John Beare was second, with 23 per cent, the Liberal Democrats third, with 13 per cent, and the Conservatives fourth, with 7 per cent.
Last year, in the Scottish parliament elections, the SNP won Central Fife, the Holyrood seat that covers the same area. The SNP's Tricia Marwick won with 44 per cent of the vote and a majority of 1,166. Labour came second with 40 per cent of the vote.
In 2008 Glenrothes celebrated its 60th anniversary. The constituency population was estimated at 88,351 in 2006 by the General Registrar for Scotland. Females made up 52 per cent and males made up 48 per cent of the total population. In 2006 around 64 per cent of the constituency's population was over the age of 30. Population projections show that life expectancy is increasing.
In 2007, 83.3 per cent of the Glenrothes constituency working-age population was economically active, which was higher than the Fife average. This meant 16.7 per cent of the working-age population was economically inactive. This is clearly a factor worth considering in comparing this by-election with the recent one in Glasgow East.
There would appear on the face of it, then, to be a good deal of scope for concern among the local electorate about the economic impact of the financial crisis on jobs. Will this help or hinder the main challenger, the SNP candidate, who is the leader of the local authority, which is endeavouring to improve employment prospects in the area?
Anyway, there you have it, a rather different sort of place from the North-East Fife constituency. Nevertheless, both electorates have much in common. It takes a long spoon to sup with them, apparently. Or does that no longer apply? And what did it mean, in any case? It implies an apartness. Well, for centuries that would have had to be so, would it not, given that Fife is a peninsula and that the Forth and Tay road bridges to it were not built until the 1960s? It also implies a solidarity based upon common experience. To what extent does that now apply and in what did it consist?
Let us not forget that politics exists on the surface of a reality that can be very grim. The livelihood of some people is very hard won. That certainly has applied in full measure in both constituencies and in old industries which have seen better days. As the fishing industry of the East Neuk or east corner of Fife, which was once very considerable and still throve on a reduced scale until comparatively recently, testifies in common with the mining industry of west Fife, for the workers in which the new town of Glenrothes was apparently primarily first established 60 years ago, the price paid for livelihood can be life itself. Loss of life among the crews of the little craft that went out to sea from the little East Neuk harbours was an integral part of the way of life of that area and, actually, although the scale and nature of the local industry's activities is much changed, still is. As for the mining industry, think of the Michael Colliery disaster as an extreme case of danger with which those members of the local population who earned their living within it had to contend all the time.
So we should show suitable respect even if the electorate should manage to see through the fog of war that is everywhere in evidence in a by-election campaign, and they may, as Fife appears to be shrouded in haar much of the time, anyway. If these people, notwithstanding the exceptional global emergency, in which the UK overlords are unquestionably implicated, should happen to choose the candidate of the party which is Labour's principal opponent here, those of you who are given to contemptuous sneering at those who (like the former Central Fife socialist republican MP) are so doggedly principled as to defy the received wisdom of the UK state, would do well to consider whether this is a proper way to treat people who are entitled to be respected even though you may not be able to count on their unquestioning allegiance.
Toodloothenoo.
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#274
Greetings...uncommon one............
do be brief with your satellite of tosh........
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#275 derekbarker
Do feel free to identify anything there that may appear to your primitive mind to be tosh.
What an ill-mannered creature you are. You must be an anglo-unionist. I am correct? I knew I must be.
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#276
Another recital of the GNU song...Hmmmmm
MY..MY.. the outer limits of liberalism!
"GREETINGS" fur-ball...................................
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#275 derekbarker
Be ashamed of yourself.
Greetings_Earthlings has caught you out and shown you up for what you are.
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Brian,
Here's a wee though for all the unionist drivellers who been pedalling their outdated wares these past days:
For Scotish people living here, the so-called 'unionist dividend' over these past few days is as follows:
1. Have your last independent bank and other 'less than independent bank' taken over by a unionist government due to the failures of unionist government financial policies.
2. Lose your right to any dividend from that source for a number of years as all dividends now have to be paid to the unionist government.
3. Accept increasing levels of unemployment among qualified high-earning financial workers since the unionist government sold your future on the holy altar of financial de-regulation.
4. Accept increase taxes, reduced public spending, increased unemployment because the citizens of Scotland are part of the union and 'we all need to share the pain together', according to Pa Broon.
5. Rejoice that workers in the City of London have had their £9 billion bonuses paid in full for this year, last year, the year before and the year before that and... and yet Pa Broon gets on his high horse and castigates Scottish people that they should be part of any other deal!.
6. Oh and then there's the small matter of the mind of the people. All unionists, seemingly, know better. 'Independence is dead' we are told. 'Salmond has met his maker' as one poster crudely put it.
Here's the reality for the unionists: the events of the last few weeks will galvanise the quest for independence, not hinder it.
The union will be shown for a worthless sham, wholly beholden to money-grabbing financiers and failed politicians from Thatcher to Bliar and Pa Broon.
But then does not that just repeat history from 300 years ago!!
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Isn't it quiet now the pro-independence element has skulked back to the shadows!
So what are the opinions of Salmond's next move?
The referendum will surely now be lost with Salmond's centrepiece economic plans thoroughly discredited. His silence during this period, surely the time to advertise his claimed economic prowess, has also been deafening. Claims that he couldn't comment on 'reserved matters' will ring hollow when that is all he ever does.
Will he look to postpone it as Holyrood rumours suggest? A defeat in the referendum would delay any chance of independence for a generation at best....but any such move would bring howls of laughter and derision from all unionist corners, which even he would struggle to spin himself out of.
Or will he continue with the vote and hope events offer him an opportunity to revive his aforementioned masterplan? Oil did spike for a few months so there is still the possibility of a #2-3bn surplus in the books this year. However, with production steadily dropping, this may well be the very last time there is an oil-generated surplus. Furthermore, the unionists can always point to past consecutive deficits.
Discuss.
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Hey Derek,
You should know better than to try arguing with beings of far superior intelligence!
;)
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There can be no doubt that the evidence of the past few days shows independence to be utterly discredited. One need only look here (New York `faces 165,000 job cuts`) for the proof that a renewal of the union is long overdue. Too wee, too poor? Yes America, you are - come back, all is forgiven!
Sad to see that Brown's ill-judged use of anti-terror legislation has inevitably riled Iceland (Iceland: Britain's unlikely new enemy). Surely there must have been a better way to work with our Icelandic friends than Brown's clunking fist? I do wonder what Russia will ask for in return for their loan...airbase at Keflavik perhaps? In case anyone needs a Secret Santa gift for Brown, how about "International Diplomacy for Dummies"?
#6 forfar-loon: FTSE down 7% today...I take it all back!
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What I can't understand is if just #1bn (2% of current spending) could stave off recession in Scotland as Salmond curiously claims.....
Why doesn't he just stick a 1-2p increase on the Tartan Tax instead of again embarrassingly sticking his hand out to the Treasury?
If anything is going to make Scotland look like a tragic beggar-nation, it's our FM constantly demanding more blessed money.
All these screams for fiscal autonomy and its claimed benefits for Scotland, yet Salmond doesn't even use a major fiscal lever he already has control of.
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Reluctant-Expat:
"Will he look to postpone it as Holyrood rumours suggest?"
I highly doubt it. The Nationalists will press on and will do some damage control over what some have claimed to made the Nationalists appear weak. Perhaps even make those weaknesses their strengths.
"but any such move would bring howls of laughter and derision from all unionist corners, which even he would struggle to spin himself out of."
It depends. How about if the vote is split into three, staus quo, more powers or Independence? The Status Quo would have to win for the Unionists to claim victory because more powers or Independence will play into Nationalist hands.
Mate, we all understand that the oil will eventually be gone. The real problem for the Union is to create an alternative or we will quickly see a rise in Scottish Nationalism when thousands are made unemployed and businesses move elsewhere because there is simply no money in Scotland anymore.
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#273 Salmondella
You see I've coaxed the subject matter, yes indeed public sector workers do pay tax. But they shouldn't as all this creates is extra posts for accountants; intrinsic scope for error and thus waste in the system. This is the true nature of the decentralization and core independence argument. Small effective, efficient and direct government.
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Master Porter is here again!
I am forced to depart for now but I shall try my goshdarndest to return to these hushed and hallowed boards in the near future to see what wisdom he will bless us with tonight.
I do hope it's about the military again.
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#277 derekbarker
As your comment appears to be totally unintelligible, perhaps you would be so kind as to indicate which dialect it is in. Or is it tosh?
I perceive that you have not identified any "tosh" in the post in question. Have I disappointed you? Oh dear. Well, one cannot please everyone.
Good evening. Toodloothenoo.
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#283
"Why doesn't he just stick a 1-2p increase on the Tartan Tax instead of again embarrassingly sticking his hand out to the Treasury?"
First, the current powers that the Scottish Parliament has cannot generate one billion pounds. Several hundred million maybe, not the full one billion.
Also our First Minister is asking for resources that should have been allocated to Scotland (read up on it).
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284. Master_Porter: How about if the vote is split into three, status quo, more powers or Independence? The Status Quo would have to win for the Unionists to claim victory because more powers or Independence will play into Nationalist hands."
For a party that only advocates full independence, anything less and especially anything that maintains Scotland in the UK, will most certainly be a defeat for the SNP.
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#283 Reluctant-expat
Quite simple really. The idea is to put MORE cash onto the streets in Scotland not less. At a time of recession in order to boost the economy the sensible chancellor would put money into peoples pockets to increase demand primarily by increasing the public purse by raising borrowing and/or lowering taxes.
The Scottish government is not allowed to have a national debt like the UK government; it is simply given piggy-bank cash and told to be frugal.
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#285 BrianSH
That's more or less the system the UN and agencies work on and it's simple and effective.
The only problem is outside incomes from investments or whatever, but that's not an issue unless the individual should be on a higher rate.
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#263 Oi numpty ... 'and I refer to the unique posters not the blatant use of multiple usernames we have started to see' ... i suspect you and Derek Barker are one and the same. Also these Holyrood rumours ... you didnt answer the question i posted at 252.... have you been rumbled..... or did you just make that bit up ? numpty
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288. What Salmond claims and what is the truth are almost certainly two different things. His credibility is now shot to pieces.
He's doing the only thing he can do nowadays.....bang that big nationalist anti-UK drum as hard as he can.
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#291 Brownedov
Indeed, but the UN and agencies are basically 'fixed need' interests.
For example, the WFO's budget varies based upon a perceived requirement to feed the hungry.
The Scottish government is supposed to be (at least in part) responsible for the economic growth of Scotland. How can it do this without being accountable for growing said wealth and being fiscally responsible and accountable to its subjects?
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246 oldnat, do you really think that in the headlong rush to muck everything up either the politicians in scotland or the regulators would have forseen this; and if they had surely the banks would have taken a different position. At best they would have had split regulation part scots part UK and the larger part would still have meant failure for the banks.
The reality is banks north and south of the border are as guilty as can be, sadly we the tax payer are helping them out of the hole, and truth be told of the 60% of RBS now publicly owned most of that is "owned" by tax payers outside Scotland so should we look for a name change RBUK perhaps?
You might call it "the act of union part 2" we'll all be tied at the hip for a very long time.
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#284 Thomas_Porter
I would hope that people are bright enough to cope with a multi-choice ballot paper to order their preferences 1-5 or whatever.
I'd like to see a ballot paper with 5 options:
1. Return to direct rule
2. Status quo
3. Calman Commission proposals
4. Full fiscal autonomy
5. Full independence
The campaign might change any of our minds, but I suspect RE would have No.1 as his 1st choice whilst you would have No.5 and I would have No.4.
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293.
What Reluctant-Expat claims and what is the truth are almost certainly two different things. His credibility is now shot to pieces.
He's doing the only thing he can do nowadays.....bang that big unionist UK drum as hard as he can.
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291. Brownedov, actually the UN operate their own income tax scheme called the 'staff assessment'.
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#294 BrianSH
You've lost me I'm afraid.
I agree that Scotland should at least have full fiscal autonomy and agree that there is no point in public servants (from the FM down) paying income tax only to have it clawed back by another set.
So on the KISS principle, the government payroll programs could calculate the nett to pay everyone yet still quote gross equivalent salaries in job ads to ensure competitiveness.
I don't see where the source of funding comes into the issue.
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#287
Greetings, strange rubik matter of another kind....apartness to the relation of a bias call.
Your beaming light needs new batteries and your lengthy dialect, was a whole lot of nothing....wasn't it just that.......
Never mind fur-ball your fellow Zorgans are easily impressed.
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#298 Reluctant-Expat
Indeed and I've been in it since '91, although it varies slightly from agency to agency.
But the point of my #291 was not what it's called but the fact that it's inherently a notional thing calculated within the payroll computer systems rather than physically separate payments from one public office to another.
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#292
Rabbie, fit ye like man, cum on nu.....
tell the truth.....yer man is running from his own flagship policy.....
"WHAT THE PRICE OF OIL TODAY"
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"THE Scotsman is today demanding answers about the HBOS takeover in a bid to secure the best deal for the nation and prevent the untimely and unnecessary death of one of our most venerable institutions."
http://news.scotsman.com/latestnews/HBOS-takeover-Still-time-to.4591663.jp
With the input of taxpayers money to this bank has Westminster thrown a lifeline unwittingly.
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#289.
Reluctant-Expat,
Perhaps, however the Scottish Nationalists and the Pro-Independence movement will consider more powers being one step closer to their main objective. The quest for Scottish Independence has continued for the 300 years that the Union has existed. It will last another 300 years, then another. There will always be one group hoping for Independence. Like I said, the movement will continue.
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#299 Brownedov
My particular point is that the vast majority of jobs in the public sector do not rely upon this relationship; so why waste money, staff and resources juggling the money and the relationship?
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#303 cynicalHighlander
That makes 3 articles in one issue (see oldnat's #227 & #229) that are not blatently unionist - a first?
Interesting times indeed, but on your main point I certainly think the Lloyds TSB - HBOS merger is now totally unnecessary and if it goes ahead will be bad for Scotland and another mistake NuLab will live to regret.
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#300 derekbarker
Sorry, you are still somewhat unintelligible, providing very little basis for dialogue to which I could be prepared to stoop.
I gather, at least, that you have not detected any "tosh" yet.
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#305 BrianSH
Exactly so - it's just a matter of few electrons whizzing around locally to calculate notional tax - no money physically changes hands and although the system needs auditing, it would anyway.
It's the distinction in you #294 that I don't understand. It's a valid of itself, but what difference does it make to individual payroll calculations?
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#307
Greetings to the unearthly kind.
Do you "tosh" all your piffle with your wish-wash nonsense.
Does one so far off the mark measure up too the past tense of nationalism?
Humdrum....satellite tosh (THE EAST COAST PHANTOM)
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#309 derekbarker
You are still not making much sense, I am afraid and have still failed to identify any "tosh" in my #274, I see. You are an ungracious and poor loser. Look before you leap in future if you wish to avoid further embarrassment of this kind.
Am giving up on you definitively now, as you seem to be growing increasingly peevish and signs of intelligent life do not seem to be present in your text.
Good night, troll.
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#310
Age shall not weary them!
Greetings, odd one. does the fur-ball, have a sensible input, or a mish mash response.
It may be worth a reply......................
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OK, Gordon was in dire straights to find the cash he wasted (billions) from the pension fund and so dissolved the 10% tax bracket. How can he then find 37 billion to bail out banks or the 500 billion he speaks of? Will the 20% bracket be dissolved next or will 20 grand a year soon find you paying 40% in tax? My best bet is that he will be borrowing money no doubt using the UK's natural resources as collateral. Now if Scotland had it's share of the natural resources of oil and gas (75-90%) it would have after independence then I'm sure it could have borrowed 37 billion too.
The only argument from this show of money wasting is that the UK debt will be so high that the 8% of the debt Scotland will take on after independence would be enormous, then we'd need to see what 8% of the wealth of the UK was that we'd inherit to see if it was worth it.
PS - I am neither for nor against independence, I am one of the many who needs convinced either way. But to suggest a country so rich in natural resources couldn't find the 37 billion is just nonsense. That's less than half the GDP of Scotland!
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#309 derekbarker
You've been sliced and diced.
Go to bed. You're making an exhibition of yourself.
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#279 Freedjmac
Well said. Add in: -
- by Brown/Darling reckoning in due course there will be a capital gain from the investments in HBOS and RBS. Capital which will go straight to the London treasury,
- what about the oil and gas they have stripped out of Scotland and squandered.
So, anything of worth, Scotland lose. Why do we put up with this?
Freedomn
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#247 - yes I read your particular post. It is nonsense, as are 90% of your extensive contributions to this board ... as I pointed out in my reply: one of three rubbishing the claims you made in the specific post #180.
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gedguy2 your 238.
Just a point of order re your point of order! Ref your 1st para, having read and re-read my 220, I didn't say otherwise - to the contrary, I agree with you. In fact my 220 drew attention to AH's June 1941 folly.
And ditto, I fully concur with the remainder of your reasoned 238, and whilst also sharing (your previous posts) a healthy distaste for bankers.
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Derek ... i put it to you ... that you are the night beast of Reluctant_Expat ...... hes nowhere to be seen ..... but suddenly youve came back into the fray..... for a start you are posting as much as RE ...... your both obsessed .... stop have a drink of wine and watch something interesting on telly like i do......mind you that could apply to all of you lol....cheers .....independence in 2011 ;o)}
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#312.
GK1982.
"The only argument from this show of money wasting is that the UK debt will be so high that the 8% of the debt Scotland will take on after independence would be enormous, then we'd need to see what 8% of the wealth of the UK was that we'd inherit to see if it was worth it."
It all depends how we allocate the debts. By claiming Scotland should take an equal share by population would be also accepting to pay for the Iraq/Afganistan war, Trident etc.
Is it fair for Scotland to pay for debts that this country does not fully support?
Allocating the debt will certainly be messy business.
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#313
Hark, the Neo-unionist by name, that wants everyone to vote for the arch-nats and Independence...Wow! paaaaha
Refer to previoue post "The Politics of football" at....1:28 pm on the 08 of sept...
Go fly a kite...little boy! lost
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The economic impact of the global financial crisis, for which the UK Labour government clearly bears a share of responsibility, is already beginning to be felt and will hurt the electors of Glenrothes as well as others eventually.
Inflation is already rising, as is unemployment, sharply. The fall in the price of crude oil and the renewed downward pressure on stock markets would appear to indicate that a serious global recession is not believed to have been averted as a result of the various extreme emergency measures recently announced in America, Europe and Asia.
UK government expenditure and borrowing is increasing and will go on increasing enormously as a result of its emergency measures and as a result of the severe economic impact that they are failing to prevent, as was to be expected.
Rising unemployment is already affecting Scotland disproportionately. If it goes on doing so, as it probably will, there will no doubt be a political price to be paid for this at some point whether or not Labour manage to hold on to Glenrothes by the skin of their teeth by seeking to persuade the electorate that they have been saved from a catastrophe, which is in point of fact only just beginning, unfortunately. The Union will not save us from it. Rather is it the case that the nature of the British Union will make matters somewhat worse, as the latest 17 per cent rise in Scottish unemployment would appear to indicate.
The notion that the Scottish National Party, which has not caused any of this unholy mess, will be the party to suffer electorally as a result of it would appear to be based more on hysteria-induced wishful thinking of their opponents than on sound common sense.
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#321
Hmmmm, another lengthy repose,
lets hope Robin has seen the light
and gets behind the colossal P.M.
Secondary Greetings :Robin of the banks kind.
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#318
Rabbie, for you i'll tac a cup O' kindness"
cheers.
Now back to business:
independence 2011 have you added another year on...maybe 2020...then again maybe never.
How the hunting going my friend.....
com'on the rabbits.....................................
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The following remarks of Irish economist Marc Coleman on the supposed demise of the arc of prosperity and certain ill-advised comments of the Labour Secretary of State for Scotland may be of some interest as we contemplate the economic damage which Scotland is beginning to suffer as a result of the global financial crisis:
"I don't know which is more shocking about Jim Murphy's recent comments on Ireland's economy. As Secretary of State for Scotland, presumably carrying a degree of responsibility for managing Scotland's economy, the incompetence is staggering. More shocking still is the use of megaphone diplomacy - for the most selfish of political reasons - at such a sensitive time, when loose talk by politicians can do damage.
But let me put my native pride aside and get down to the real issue: the economic illiteracy revealed in Mr Murphy's comments. In contrast to Alex Salmond, the SNP leader, and George Osborne, the Tory shadow chancellor - both of whom have visited Ireland to look at our economy - Mr Murphy hasn't bothered to study what is going on in Ireland, nor in his own country. Equating Iceland with Ireland is very wide of the mark.
In Ireland, swift and decisive action by Ireland's government has protected our bank deposits, but also those with UK Post Office Savings Bank, which is owned by Bank of Ireland, not to mention the Irish subsidiaries or arms of five other UK-based banks. At 25 per cent, Ireland's debt-to-GDP ratio is the second-lowest in the European Union.
At most, recapitalising our banks will add seven percentage points to that, bringing it to perhaps the fourth-lowest. If there is one thing Ireland isn't, it's insolvent. Unlike Iceland, Ireland's euro membership protects us from exchange-rate pressures and limits the risk premiums paid on government debt.
EU and euro membership, plus a business-friendly tax regime, makes Ireland a world beater in foreign direct investment and a home to leading high-technology multinationals. Add a booming indigenous traded services sector to that, and we have a very different story to our colder island neighbour to the north.
But even if Iceland faces problems, which independent nation doesn't from time to time? Isn't it better for a nation to make and correct its own mistakes, rather than remain in a state of permanent policy dependency on others?
The answer to that question depends on how confident you are in yourself. Scotland's genius has given the world the television, the telephone, penicillin, much modern industrial practice and, of course, the science of economics.
The idea that this nation cannot successfully manage its economic interdependency with the rest of the world is, to me, laughable. Far from there being an "arc of insolvency", the real arc here is an "arc of indifference", encompassing Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales.
Putting Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland on a viable footing - letting them manage their economies - would not, of course, be in the political interest of politicians like Mr Murphy, who depend for their career advancement on the supplication and marginalisation of Scotland and Wales to Westminster.
But it would be right for the people. As for Ireland's recession, Mr Murphy is, again, clueless. After 15 years of record-busting growth, some froth is being blown off the Guinness.
But the glass remains very much almost full: Ireland's economy grew by almost 90 per cent in the past ten years, four times faster than the EU and three times faster than countries in the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD). Yes, we've had a property bubble - a bad Anglo-Saxon habit we're in the process of kicking.
When that's done, by 2010, Irish GDP will have fallen four percentage points, but Ireland's average economic performance in the first decade of the millennium will remain streets ahead of the EU, OECD and UK.
In my book The Best is Yet to Come, I draw a sad contrast between Ireland, where the all-island population will rise from more than six million to more than eight million by 2058, and Scotland, where population levels are falling and set to go below five million in the next few decades.
As well as increasingly positive interaction between its north and south, Ireland now enjoys excellent relations with the peoples of England, Scotland and Wales.
The reason for this is the same as the reason why, even after our recession is over, we will remain one of Europe and the world's richest nations: we don't allow Westminster to appoint the likes of Mr Murphy to run our affairs."
Is it not refreshing to be presented with an expert analysis from outside the UK, one that is not politically loaded against Scottish aspirations, which clearly seem reaonable enough to the Irish. British Unionists do not agree, of course, because it does not suit them to do so. They do not and will not let facts stand in their way, dismissing anything which conflicts with their account as "tosh" and worse. It is for the SNP and its supporters to continue to counter the misinformation and disinformation with which we are being currently inundated for perfectly obvious and comprehensible if hardly admirable reasons.
The propaganda battle and the British unionist hysteria will only intensify, of course, as the Glenrothes by-election proceeds, as this is an election that the Labour Party dare not lose. They are, therefore, striving to win it by any means that they can possibly contrive. This is for them a battle in a war, and they are making the truth the first casualty of it. Naturally. What else would you expect?
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In support of Robin Banks' remarks, one may cite today's Herald:
"The little matter of a recession remains, and all it entails. Equally, praise from abroad might fail to impress voters at home capable of remembering the name of the Chancellor who presided over a credit boom and a housing bubble, who raided pensions, put huge, looming PFI bills on the never-never, initiated the 10p tax fiasco, borrowed mightily, hid behind a fictive "golden rule", and told us that all of it was "sustainable"."
Mr Brown has been faced with the problem of attempting to stem a crisis he helped to create:
"Alan Greenspan, former chairman of the US Federal Reserve, may have emerged as the chief culprit of the cheap money binge, the man who could have reined in the banks but steadfastly refused. Nevertheless, the Prime Minister treated that infinitely complacent figure as something like a guru, and even hired him as an adviser."
Mr Brown, hero or villain? The electorate of Glenrothes is making its mind up as the economy falls to pieces around us.
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# 316 Regmitchell
Sorry. I did not read your post that way. Please accept my apologies.
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#323 Derek ... your definately not RE ... hes to serious .... anyway 2011... the reason for that is ..even if it does go our way in 2010 i doubt everything would be sorted until 2011 or more even .... attack ferrets at the ready .... by the left ....quick ..scurry ! :o)}
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I would draw your attention to Ben_Lomond's #324, which contains an authoritative Irish analysis of not only Ireland's present economic position in the wake of the global financial crisis but an explanation of why it is, in fact, as satisfactory as it is, contrary to what we are being led to believe by British unionists.
There are also enlightening comments on Scotland's economic and political situation in the present circumstances within the United Kingdom.
Here be reason and light. It is very readable in spite of its length. If you give it your attention, you will not be disappointed. Here is a revelation of how it is that a relatively small country can do very well for itself and continue to do so even in adverse circumstances.
Clearly, we should still look to Ireland for inspiration, and to Norway. As for Iceland, Marc Coleman's view is worth considering.
The political fall-out from the global financial crisis can only be favourable to the unionist case if unionist misrepresentation is allowed to go unquestioned and unopposed. So question it and oppose it.
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#324 Ben_Lomond: marvellous stuff! A crystal clear view from across the Irish Sea.
As I alluded to in my #282, the UK government seems not to understand the subtleties of international diplomacy. It's all very well to malign our neighbours as "insolvent" in a vain attempt to belittle your political opponents, but what happens next time you have to deal with one of these "insolvent" countries? Unsurprisingly they are not best pleased.
As I said in my #77 with reference to Iceland, it's much better to keep a friend, especially one who is in your debt, than to create an enemy. As regards Ireland and Norway, we stand to gain absolutely nothing from upsetting them so needlessly. I guess Labour in its death throes thinks only of survival at all costs!
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Superb mail Ben Lomond at #324
Unionists, just because you own the mass media in Scotland [largely] doesn't mean Scots will accept your lies as truth.
The beeb only offered a rather spurious path through to this 'have you say' last night before the Newsnight special. Interesting comments.
Let's not forget the people who've been wielding the mace, for the past decade, and done NOTHING.
http://newsforums.bbc.co.uk/nol/thread.jspa?sortBy=1&forumID=5497
Back to fibs and fearmongering eh? You Labour/Tory/Fibdems are a nasty bunch - to be sure. Yuck.
We see right through you, liebour party. Frankly, your lot make my skin crawl - a party with it's lip firmly out of place, that actually takes pleasure, assuming some kind of political gain, in this crisis. At the country's expense.
Disgusting, and unbelievable. Hopefully, Glenrothes will punt your lot into touch.
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#324 Ben_Lomond &
#328 General_Disquiet
Good posts, but the "British unionist hysteria" mentioned in #324 started on Tuesday. I have sifted through all the print media this week, but I'll wager there's more along the Torygraph's Alex Salmond's response to rescue plan looks puny which includes: "But Mr Coleman's rant against the Scottish Secretary in particular and the Unionist cause in general was just what the Nats needed to maintain a veneer of respectability for their separatist argument because his message Ireland was still an economic success story - and an independent Scotland could be too, was manna from heaven for the beleaguered Nat ministry."
This puff of support for ambassador Murphy comes from a newspaper not noted for its support for NuLab, to put it mildly, points to a closing of unionist ranks. It certainly makes me wonder how the Tories will play Glenrothes and whether they would prefer NuLab to cling on rather than to humiliate "Duff" Gordon further.
There was some evidence of a mild increase in Tory support in Scotland in the UK-wide YouGov poll last weekend, perhaps corresponding with a collapse in LibDem support. It strikes me as unlikely that many NuLab waverers in Glenrothes will go straight to the Tories, but I wonder if the article I quote was code to any there might be suggesting they hold their noses and vote NuLab this time.
Off out today, but will look back later.
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Gordon Brown again showing his ant-Scottish credentials. So much for the Union Dividend. This mess has come under Unionist control and Scotland is paying the price. Roll on Independence as soon as possible
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312
Q. How did Brown find £37 billion to bail out our banks?
A. He borrowed - yes, he borrowed it. The UK was already the most heavily indebted state on the panet and he has just borrowed billions more. And he borrowed from international money markets (as the US has just down) which are mostly underpinned by the Chinese - so guess who's got us all by the doodahs.
The worm is turning however as people begin to remember that it is the monumental incompetence, the decade of "fiscal irresponsibilty" presided over by Brown and Labour which put us in this mess in the first place. They sold us debt fuelled increasing consumer spending as "economic growth" and we now are the most debt ridden state on the planet. I almost feel sorry for the incoming Tory government who will inherit an economy effectively bust.
My first major concern, however, is the BBC which has acted like a party political cheerleader for Gordon Brown since last week.
Has this anything to do with Glenrothes I wonder?
My other concern is the gratutious insults being thrown at Ireland by, among others our, new SoSfS Jim Murphy who I had always considered to be a bit of a diddy anyway. He's just proved it.
Ireland's economy is still in hugely better condition than ours and this will become very apparent very soon.
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Mark Coleman's analysis really isn't that great. He comes across as a demi-economist that mixes economics with empty nationalist bluster. Instead of tackling Ireland's hideous property bubble (one of the largest in history), he waves his hand and writes it off as 'a bad Anglo-Saxon habit we're in the process of kicking'.
Wonderful. The Irish can beat their property bubble blues by being more Irish.
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#335 Anaxim
Indeed, a much better approach than being more British to solve a property bubble.
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Thomas_Porter #319:
"It all depends how we allocate the debts. By claiming Scotland should take an equal share by population would be also accepting to pay for the Iraq/Afganistan war, Trident etc.
Is it fair for Scotland to pay for debts that this country does not fully support?"
Thomas, this sort of post shows your (no offence intended) adolescent naievity. Are you suggesting that it would be fair that England (whose people also do not fully support these things) should assume all the debt for them alone? You often display a belief that everything done by the government at Westminster is somehow the fault of the English. I have pointed out before that the current PM and Chancellor were returned to the House of Commons by Scottish, not English, voters, as were a good many of the present and previous ministerial office holders since 1997, and who therefore took many of the decisions. UK debt, even for things with which you may disagree, is just that - UK debt, and Scotland, if she became independent would be legally liable for a full share of it. I suspect that come any referendum in 2010 the figures will make truly sobering reading. To suggest anything else is wishful thinking.
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#336
Being more Irish or more British aren't approaches, period. They're distractions.
Now would probably be a good time for the Irish government to roll out universal healthcare. Around half the Irish workforce depends on private health insurance, but the recession will probably clobber a good chunk of that. IIRC, the NHS is used by 95% of the UK population, so it's not going to have to suddenly expand to cope with increased demand.
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#337 MalcolmW2
Did you not know that there are more English Labour MP's than English Tory MP's?
Welcome to the real world. There is no possible way that Scotland can force a Scottish PM on England. Wakey-wakey!
Personally I'm perfectly happy to split the national debt right down the population lines and go. Seems very rational to me.
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#338 Anaxim
Love it or hate it, the Irish healthcare model does allow their government considerably more room for manouver during tough economic times when compared to the UK model.
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#334 Smackedagain.
When all else fails the conspiricay bells toll!!
There are a lot out there that think the BBC gives the nationalists, and your armchair pundit of a leader in particular, too easy a ride.
On another blog you made a case for Iceland and stated that "silly posters" wrongly make comparisons with Scotland http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/briantaylor/2008/10/money_money_money_2.html#comment128 but it is the leader of the SNP who made the comparisons in the first place. Are the "silly posters" your fellow Nats, by any chance?
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337
It is not generally remembered but Scotland took on a share of England's huge national debt at the Union of 1707 which caused consternation when this became widely known as the Union had been sold to the tiny percent of Scots who had a say in the matter while many of them were unaware of the national debt implication.
On today's national debt Scotland will be in a better to position to deal with it than England. You see, what this crisis has underlined is that the South East of England is not the "economic power house" of the UK. It is only the "economic counting house" in which almost two thirds of the value of its vaunted economic activity was in "financial services" ie such productive activity as selling debt as an asset and inventing huge sums of candy floss cash.
That, to coin an expressive Glasgow cliche, is oot the windae now.
THE UK is effectively bust.
Hope everybody gets a hold of this fact before Glennrothes
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I've came up for a new mantra for our Glorious King Brown instead of 'Stronger Together'.
A touch of reality can come into play and he can proudly pronounce 'Boom Together! Bust Together!'.
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#339 Brian SHhhhhhh
Welcome to your world more like. Granted, you and your fellow Nats could argue your way out of a paper bag but "real world" erm I don't think so. We have a Scottish PM and thankfully democracy will mean that we never ever will have a Scottish Nationalist PM so "wakey-wakey" and welcome to the "real world".
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#344 Salmondella
Correct, becuase WE will have a Scottish Nationalist PM of SCOTLAND.
I'm sure that yourself and your fellow Labour members instead of embracing a positive future will run off to your Georgian Townhouses in London and give us all some piece. We'll you had to put the swindled expenses claims on the gravy bus somwhere eh?
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324. It's curious that this economics journalist at a local radio station (not to be confused with a proper 'economist') with a strong nationalist bent (and who actively campaigns for reunification of NI and Ireland - so a few anti-UK issues there then!) doesn't mention that Ireland was not just the first, but is still the only EU nation in recession, having reported two successive quarters of negative growth. The UK has not reported one period of negative growth yet.
I don't know what that says about Ireland's economic model....except "fragile".
He also doesn't mention the small matter that a 40 year programme of generous EU grants-in-aid, now totalling nearly 50% of Ireland's GDP (and which would put Ireland's true debt ratio at around 75% not the 25% he boasts) have now come to an end.
Furthermore, he also doesn't mention that, not only is Ireland now being cut off from billions in EU aid a year, they are now going to be expected to actually contribute to the EU budget, just as the UK has been doing since the moment we joined.
What will these trivial matters do to Ireland's accounts, I wonder.
Good God, people. I have torn this individual's credibility apart within a few minutes!
And this is the individual you put up against a Nobel Laureate?!
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Isn't it amazing how some unionists imagine that meaningful political debate can consist soley of silly assertions.
Perhaps Salmondella could adorn his next posting with something that actually has some meaning and then we can knock it about and see whose argument carries the day.
Actually I can feel the tide starting to run out on Brown and the unionists already on this issue and his crass intervention, scoring crass political points means that Brown has lost the high ground and offended many Scots in the process.
Taylor's blog is becoming the touchstone of political debate in our wee country and what you hear here today you'll hear everywhere else in a day or two.
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340. As an Irish poster stated the other day: In Ireland, you have to pay to see GP and to attend A&E, plus the national Breast cancer service has been cancelled.
And you think this is all preferable as it "does allow their government considerably more room for manouver during tough economic times when compared to the UK model"?
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340. As an Irish poster stated the other day: In Ireland, you have to pay to see GP and to attend A&E, plus the national Breast cancer service has been cancelled.
But you think this is level of provision ispreferable as it "does allow their government considerably more room for manouver during tough economic times when compared to the UK model"?
Maybe you think the same applies to their education service even though pupils have to pay for all their own books and there is no such thing as free school dinners?
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Latest news from the Icelandic crash:
Savers with Landsbanki Guernsey Limited are to receive 30p for every pound deposited with the Icelandic bank, it has been announced.
Who was the utter muppet who repeatedly complained about Brown protecting billions in UK assets from collapsing Icelandic banks?
(Can everyone please look for any shred of credibility that nationalists may still have. Make sure you look behind the sofa.)
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#345 Brian
I am sure Mr Connery is not making plans to end his beach chair nationalist politics anytime soon, or in this lifetime. That is the "real world" I am afraid.
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#335 Anaxim
While noting and taking account of your subsequent remarks on healthcare, I cannot but observe, with respect, that your response to the Marc Coleman analysis does not consist in a point-by-point refutation based upon sound argumentation with reference to pertinent verifiable facts.
In other words, what we see hear is essentially the usual unionist cavalier dismissal of an inconvenient contention based upon facts which, from the unionist point of view, could hardly be more inconvenient.
Refusal or inability to meet reason with reason and confront all the facts of the matter is a sign of weakness. It is the weakness of the unionist case in Scotland that is fuelling unionist hysteria in the troublesome circumstances in which we now find ourselves within the UK, the economy of which, not least in its peripheral provinces, is presenting every appearance of coming apart at the seams.
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You could get a more balanced view of Coleman from almost anywhere but R-E's shrill #346, but for the truth I'd suggest starting with the Irish National Business Forum's Marc Coleman, Economist or the Marketing Institute of Ireland's Marc Coleman.
He is both an economist and a journalist, as many soures verify although I see the Torygraph share R-E's economy with the truth with their: "Writing from Dublin Marc Coleman, described as a former European Central Bank economist, objected to Mr Murphy ...."
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I find it quite amazing, and very offensive, that Nat posters are happy to accept - and indeed praise to the skies - outsiders of minimal credibility who happen to support their views, while dismissing as liars, traitors and idiots anyone, from anywhere, who dares to question their own narrow views.
In this attitude, I see a desperate lack of self-confidence and a child-like need for approval.
Anyone who has ever tried to help an alcoholic will recognise the paranoia of people who know the truth but fear to admit it. In desperation, they will say: "Look, there's big Jimmy. He drinks as much a me and he's not an alcoholic." If you don't humour him, he'll resort to the vilest abuse.
Compare that the with SNP poster who says: "Look, there's an Irishman. He's not in economic meltdown and he's humouring me."
Sooner or later, the alcoholic has to accept the truth or die. It may also be last orders time at the bar of Independence dreams.
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#324 Ben Lomond
I find the Marc Coleman remarks in this post to be most enlightening and thought-provoking. A worthy and revealing contribution to debate.
So far as the health-care point made subsequently by Anaxim is concerned, nothing should really be taken out of context, should it? Independent Ireland has exercised its freedom to make a range of choices which have met with the approval of its electorate. Scotland within the UK is subject largely to the will of the electorate of our southern neighbours on a wide range of matters. One either approves of this or not, but it is a fact that should not be denied, for the implications of it are serious.
What is particularly interesting and revealing about the Coleman remarks, I find, is that they contrast so starkly with the British unionist account that we are mostly fed by the media here. I suppose the answer must be to look outside the UK for one's information. The media of the Republic of Ireland would appear to be most convenient for this purpose. Fortunately, the Internet comes to our rescue so far as access to that is concerned.
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I've been looking at Marc Coleman's Wiki page and I have strong suspicions that he is the page's author!
Many of the usernames in the editing history have now shut down, many others have only contributed to Coleman's page, one has only edited radio-related sites and one user is actually called 'MarcPColeman' (which is a little giveaway) but this has also been shut down!
The few remaining are Wiki administrators tidying up the page.
And (as if it couldn't get any better!) the SNP have actually dedicated a page on their site to this ill-informed, incomplete and inaccurate guff written by a former junior bank employee who now mans the one-man Economy unit of a local Irish radio station!
I'm sorry, I do actually believe I have wet myself laughing.
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Nice to see the tourists and merchants of doom have all stuck their heads over the parapet
'Afternoon riff-raff ....
Thought I would have a quick wander through Brian's blog while having a coffee break - nice to see the tone of the discussions is going the way of the FTSE100
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Now children its time to put your toys away its listen with mother time.
"How Brains might have foretold the big crash"
http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/7672138.stm
"We repeat this kind of behaviour in one form or another with astonishing frequency and "stupidity" doesn't begin to help us understand it. Bubbles that pop have been a feature of economic life ever since a boom in red mullet in ancient Rome. Railways, loans to Latin America, seaside piers, South Seas trade, Asian currencies, tulip bulbs, American real estate, the internet, you name it, getting carried away on the tide is in our blood."
If one believes in global capitalism then Boom and Bust is inevitable and in the modern world these cycles will speed up as the planets population keeps expanding looking to get their share of natural resources. This system exploits the poor to satisfy the rich powerful countries greed.
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#337.
MalcolmW2.
"Are you suggesting that it would be fair that England (whose people also do not fully support these things) should assume all the debt for them alone?"
The debt consists of quite alot of different issues. I am not suggesting that we dump the worst debts with England, however I am attempting to show that there are issues which England and Scotland have a different opinion on these issues and also the debt was spent to benefit Scotland rather then England so I feel England should not pay part of these debts which they will never benefit from, understand? Of course it works vice-versa, Scotland should not pay for debt that was used in England to benefit the English people.
I'm not sure who would benefit from this arrangement. I believe it to be fairer.
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Ok, so my 352 was clearly a little strong!
Take Two:
I have just discovered that not only has Ireland been enjoying multi-billion pound EU grants for the past 40 years but, despite the fact they now have one of the highest GDP per capitas in the world, they will still be receiving multi-billion grants until 2012!
Only from 2013 will Ireland be expected to join the UK in the thin ranks of 'net contributors to the EU budget'!
Unbelievable!
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Roll on the union dividend eh?
Scottish bankruptcies up 162%!
And this doesn't even count HBOS and RBS!
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Apart from all this huff and bluster about Coleman's only experience being a series of junior positions at the ECB, how about some nationalist responses to his omission of:
Ireland's status as one of the biggest recipients of EU aid,
Total EU grants equate to nearly 50% of Ireland's GDP, totally undermining his boast that Ireland's debt ratio is "only 25% of GDP",
Even though Ireland now has one of the highest GDP per capita rates in Europe, the country still receives billions in EU aid every year and is not expected to become a net contributor (as the UK has been since we joined) until 2013.
That none of these little snippets are included in his angry rant does tend to undermine his whole case. Discuss.
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40 mins for moderation ...... I'm losing the will to post (no cheering from the ranks now !!), there seems to be quite a traffic jam
..... is someone installing a tram system into the blog?
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#355 brigadierjohn
But it's fine for the BBC to push a US economist (who probably dared not speak Sarko's name in his NY Times blog for fear of local francophobia) who gave a dewdrop to "Duff" Gordon?
How about some balance yourself?
#357 Reluctant-Expat
Worried about the truth getting out, R-E? Try the links in my #354 or look beyond the first few hits on Google.
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RE and Brigadierjohn, who exactly are you trying to convince that Mr Coleman's comments are irrelevant and that the independence movement is dead, us or yourselves?
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I notice that out of the 20 most recent posts, 9 are from a single (somewhat bilious, vitriolic) person.
Whilst I no longer bother to read said posts, I must protest, as it is wearing out my scroll-wheel!
Brian, it would greatly increase the enjoyment of reading your blogs and their attendant comments if said person were to go and do something more constructive with their time.
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Sorry, fellow unionists, but I am having so much fun with this....
Let's compare the 'economists' in this debate (inverted commas as there really is only one true economist being discussed here):
Marc Coleman, once a junior-level economist at the ECB, now an economics editor of a local radio station in Ireland. See post #325 above for his 'cherrypicked' analysis attacking the UK Govt...and then #346 highlighting some minor omissions.
Paul Krugman, Nobel Prize winner for Economics.
His conclusions on the UK Govt: When Henry Paulson, the U.S. Treasury secretary, announced his plan for a $700 billion financial bailout, he rejected [taking equity in banks in return for loans], saying, ?That?s what you do when you have failure.? Instead, he called for government purchases of toxic mortgage-backed securities, based on the theory that ... actually, it never was clear what his theory was.
Meanwhile, the British government went straight to the heart of the problem ? and moved to address it with stunning speed. On Wednesday, Mr. Brown?s officials announced a plan for major equity injections into British banks, backed up by guarantees on bank debt that should get lending among banks, a crucial part of the financial mechanism, running again. And the first major commitment of funds will come on Monday ? five days after the plan?s announcement.
Luckily for the world economy, Gordon Brown and his officials are making sense. And they may have shown us the way through this crisis.
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#357 Reluctant-Expat
How precisely, pray, does apprising us of the fact that you have just wet yourself contribute to the unionist case? Was it the hysteria that did it to you, my poor dear?
It has already been pointed out on numerous occasions in this discussion forum that the unionist response to those who credibly oppose their account of anything whatever is commonly to shoot the messenger or to ridicule him or her. Is this likely to be persuasive?
Shoot the messenger all you like, and wet yourself till the cows come home, but the message has got out, and it is circulating all over Scotland. All dried out now, by the way? Have a nice day.
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337. "Adolescent Naivity" is the very least of Master Porter's problems, Malcolm.
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I’m curious as to all this abuse of the Irish economy. If the doom-sayers are to be believed then they better get to the city of London pronto and share their wisdom with the lesser mortals at such institutions as WPP (2nd biggest ad agency in the World) who are thinking of re-locating their HQ from London to Ireland. Poor sods have no idea of how bad an idea this obviously is and that Ireland are about to collapse like a leaky bagpipe, they have obviously got where they are on a complete wing and a prayer …………
Of course Darling’s recent hand-break turn (surely shome mishtake!) on taxing these type of corporation may just keep WPP where it is, we’ll wait and see
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#362 Reluctant-Expat
You've admitted the man's a well-qualified economist and not just a journalist and no doubt will have looked at the references to him on the ECB site.
I don't claim him to be a new saviour of capitalism, so let others judge whether his remarks make any sense.
It's odd that you make such an attempt to discredit his thoughts, but you're clearly at one with the Torygraph and others can make what they will of that.
Off again now but if you desire a response will you please quote the user id along with the number?
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#364 Reluctant-Expat
What angry rant? Discuss.
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#366 Brownedov: You sir, are the linkmeister of the blog, citing endless references that support your viewpoint. Along comes a new link, just one, from a Nobel Laureate, and you blow a gasket in your attempts to denigrate the man and his views.
I have explained to you before, it is easy to find links supporting almost anything - and just as easy, for the dedicated web-searchers, to find links arguing the opposite.
Your links are holy writ, of course, and all the others are the work of idiots and other Nobel Prizewinners.
And you ask ME to find some balance?
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370. What do you, it's "out there"?
It was rightly torn apart in the papers at the time and can now only be found somewhere in the sprawling SNP site.
Everyone knows about Ireland's EU-aid bonanza and everyone know's Ireland is the only EU country in recession. And if I can find glaring holes in his rant then so can everyone else.
Only the nationalists predictably continue to give it any credibility.
Any port in a storm, I suppose.
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#367 ScotInNotts: My point was not to question Mr Coleman's bona fides (although I doubt if anyone here had ever heard of him, and suddenly he's Adam Smith), but to compare the attitudes of SNP posters to various opinions. Agree with them and you must be a genius, disagree and you're a traitorous imbecile.
It doesn't matter to me whether the Independence movement is dead or not. My guess is that it's fatally wounded, but I've never claimed to be infallible.
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As someone complained about post 362, it must surely be worthwhile repeating:
354. Nice attempt at spin, although using another self-penned portrait of Coleman does not really hold that much water!
His only professional experience as an economist is in the low-to-middle ranks of the ECB where he first started as a 'research analyst', later being promoted to 'statistician', finally making 'economist' grade after completing a course at Kiel.
Just for some perspective, his highest grade of 'Economist' still ranks below 'Senior Economist', 'Principal Economist', 'Chief Economist'.....
And how many more profiles of himself has this one posted on the net?
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#375 brigadierjohn: Hey buddy! You make some fair points. As old Bill Shakespeare said: "the Devil can cite scripture for his purpose". Amidst the howls for "proof" of this, that and the other we should all remember, this is a blog not a mathematical theorem. The brigadier is right: for every "proof" that is found, the "disproof" is invariably but a quick internet search away.
That said I don't have a problem with people inserting links in their posts. It's extra information for those that wish to look at it and can bring interesting ideas to a wider audience. No harm in that, especially if you consider that some of us are big enough boys and girls to exercise critical judgement about what we see. If you don't like links, don't click on them.
#368 Richard_the_Rogue: :o) I guess our resident troll is racing snail-like through yet more "times of tedium".
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#377 brigadierjohn: I accept that posters holding up Mr Colemans views as gospel or the 'correct' opinion just because it agrees with their own beliefs, without knowing how knowldegable the said person is on the issues at hand, would be foolish in the least.
However it is still a valid opinion, and the comments made therein worthy of discussion on these boards, unless everyone on here is an economist or "higher" rank (RE).
Do you think that Scotland is incapable to run its own economy? Would it be unable to survive in the current economic climate?
You may be proved right that independence movement perhaps is fatally wounded, perhaps not.
As for comparing attitudes of SNP posters to various issues, independence by its nature tends to provoke strong polarised reactions, not always the correct ones. I cannot account for all SNP posters on the forum, but to tar us all with the same brush is a tad extreme.
There are always the few exceptions and balanced opinions on the board, either totally for, against or a compromise somewhere in between independence.
However you may want to include a few unionist posters in the "Agree with them and you must be a genius, disagree and you're a traitorous imbecile." mould.
There seems to be a lot of talk of the demise of scottish independence from these posters without much informative discussion of ithe issues it entails.
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#353 post_meridiem
You complain that I don't provide a point-by-point rebuttal of Coleman, but ignore the one key point I do make, which is that his analysis of the Irish property bubble is useless. Calling it an 'anglo-saxon habit' doesn't address the effects or real causes.
Property bubbles can be very, very nasty things. The one in Japan floored them up until well, now.
It's as if a person with a bullet wound declares it to be a bad habit, without bothering to think about how to stop the bleeding, remove the bullet or avoid future gunshots.
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#375 brigadierjohn
Looks like we'll have to agree to differ. Yes, I do post links freely and obviously they're mainly supportive of my views, but they include ones like the Torygraph one in my #354 which are to the contrary, and when I quote it is now most often a short taster rather than many paragraphs like RE's #369 although I admit to that being partly in fear of the house rules re quoting of copyright material.
Unlike R-E's attempted character assassination of Coleman in countless posts, my #118 acknowledges that "Prof. Krugman is a worthy Nobel winner" and I don't even argue with his views in his New York Times piece as far as he goes but simply argue that his situation in a francophobic and fiscally libertarian USA perhaps caused any comment on Sarkozy or regulation to be effectively unprintable.
I'll let others judge whether that opinion constitutes your: "you blow a gasket in your attempts to denigrate the man and his views"
"And you ask ME to find some balance?"
Wishful thinking, I suppose.
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Post 357,
REPrehensible One,
It was only a matter of time!
You have now revealed your true identity (other than being a complete fraud which we all knew anyway!)
If you don't know whether or not you have wet yourself, then you are clearly posting from a cell somewhere deep inside Tory Central HQ or Keir Hardie House!!
Hopefully other posters can expect days of relief without you on these boards as your Mammy changes and changes and changes your nappies!!
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294. Brian, you could transfer your last paragraph to the issue of funding Scotland's local government as the SNP would prefer.
Surely you agree that communities should decide their tax levels, programmes and services without interference of 'higher' government.
For example; Why should Glasgow's MSPs be involved in decisions about construction projects in Aberdeen or transport projects in Edinburgh?
Why should Tavish Scott have any say in the funding that goes to the Borders?
While the Barnett Formula is a more-or-less rigid arrangement, despite Salmond's protestations, what the SNP themselves propose leaves plenty of room for party politicking.
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#379 forfar-loon
Excellent post and thanks for the links, which I won't quote but are highly amusing.
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To those who find R-E offensive; ignore his posts. I do. I am more than willing to be convinced by any valid discussion for I do not believe that I am always going to be right in every conviction that I have. The only thing that I am sure of is that I'm unsure.
When or if we get our independence (I'm willing to accept the democratic will of a referendum) it is only ethical that we pay our debt that we have incurred when we were part of the Uk; anything else would be morally wrong. I am sure that when that moment comes then there will be a lot of figures being bandied on both sides, but I am sure that we will eventually settle for an equitable agreement.
A question to those unionists; What will you do when Scotland gets its independence? Will you accept the will of the people of Scotland and claim your Scottish passports and do your best for our country? I'd just be interested to know. I am a nat and have always have been but I've also served in the British army and have been proud to do so as, being a member of the UK, I saw this as my duty to my country (which was the UK at that time).
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375. At 4:25pm on 16 Oct 2008, brigadierjohn.
correct information below.
The Nobel Memorial Prize in Economic Sciences, officially named The Sveriges Riksbank Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel (Swedish: Sveriges riksbanks pris i ekonomisk vetenskap till Alfred Nobels minne), is an award for outstanding contributions in the field of economics and is generally considered one of the most prestigious awards in that field. [1] It is commonly referred to as the "Nobel Prize in Economics" [2] and it is identified with the Nobel Prizes, although it is not one of the five Nobel Prizes.
the above is the prize that Paul Robin Krugman won.
all though he may be well qualified, please do not give titles to whom it does not apply, Paul Robin Krugman is not a nobel Laureate.
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#377 brigadierjohn
If you don't open links and only get the information you require to make a well judged opinion from your selective media sources does that not imply that whatever decision you make is prejudged, not someone who remains to be convinced one way or another. I wonder if all the manifesto literature you receive goes through the same self filtration process.
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#379 forfar-loon: Old buddy! Thanks for your conditional support. I have no problem with the links, per se, let's just say one man's link is another man's poison. I give my own independent opinion and feel no need to call on external support as "proof" of my rightness. I always concede the possibility, even the likelihood, of error.
#380 ScotInNotts: If I implied criticism of all SNP people I apologise. I don't know if Mr Coleman's opinion was "valid." It was just an opinion, based on his own prejudices probably. Just like ours. My objection was to people grabbing it, because it suited their argument, and then dismissing the opinions of others whose might know more about it.
#382 Brownedov: Yup. We do differ. Maddeningly, I think we both want something similar in the end. All road lead to Rome, however.
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#384 Reluctant-Expat
Correct I'm all for decentralisation as much as is practical, primarily because I think it feeds politics for the masses. The current system is quite exclusionary.
But is not debate and argument the crux of being Scottish itself? Makes life interesting!
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FSA. The future of financial services regulation in the UK
http://www.banking-business-review.com/article_feature.asp?guid=5707A47B-4E36-41C4-BCB4-58A608AE947B
Unable to copy and post any quotes from above link but I see that the following link re HBOS means that its maybe not a done deal yet.
"Watchdog says HBOS has enough cash to stand alone"
http://news.scotsman.com/latestnews/Watchdog-says-HBOS--has.4596449.jp
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#386 gedguy2
That is an interesting question that you raise. Let us put it conditionally, however, so as to accommodate everyone more comfortably. What will British unionists do if Scotland becomes independent?
I hesitate to say this, but I would guess that for most people, whatever they may like to think, the majority view, whatever it may happen to be, has a very considerable appeal. Safety in numbers. Safety within the warm enfolding embrace of received wisdom, the majority definition of what constitutes the proper state of affairs.
Who wants to be a unionist nowadays in the Republic of Ireland? Yet a hundred years ago, a unionist majority was sneering at a pro-independence minority there, just as is happening here now, in this very discussion forum. A dim-witted British army officer began to notice that something seemed to be changing, however, when he walked into the main post office in Dublin to buy a postage stamp at Easter in 1916. Imagine his surprise when he discovered who was behind the counter and that they wouldn't let him leave until the siege was over. History is an upsy-downsy thing. The siege failed. The officer was released. Then a lot of people were hanged by the British. It must all have seemed rather hopeless for the those who wanted independence, but, all the same, a terrible beauty was being born, and the minority became the majority within a remarkably short period of time, nevertheless.
The financial crisis and its aftermath will give us a rocky ride here. We can already see that it will, although, one hopes, a less rocky one than Ireland had a century ago, and the outcome will not be clear before we have had our ups and downs. Ups and downs are quite normal on a road to independence. Adversity has a role to play in the process, painful though that may be. Blows that may send us reeling from time to time are not, however, going to knock us out, necessarily. They may show that change is occurring and that it is being resisted. At some point it becomes clear whether that resistance will be overcome.
When we reach that point a terrible beauty will be born, a turnaround of received wisdom and accepted norms. If it happens, it will be quite something to behold, not least because very few people who are now unionists are then very likely to wish to go on owning up for long to having been so.
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#381 Anaxim
I did indeed not focus my attention on the point that you made about the property bubble. While accepting that it is not unworthy of consideration, I doubt whether it is in itself sufficient to undermine the validity of Mr Coleman's contribution to our thinking, which I personally welcome, while noting that not everyone does, as is only to be expected.
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#376 Reluctant-Expat
When my #389 was referred I thought it was probably me scrambling a link. When my #393 was referred I thought it was probably auto-referred due to a biblical word beginning and ending with d. Now my #394 has been referred I'm wondering if someone is playing games? Anyway, I'll try again as the content was totally innocuous, but if someone is referring manually, perhaps they would be kind enough to explain why and I'll try to rephrase it again.
Thanks for the tip. I don't visit the party websites very often, but after your useful lead I checked the SNP site and found Ireland is still a success story - and Scotland could be too very easily through the search function. It's quite readable, but I can't think it's worth the trouble of trying to suppress it.
In a way, after the Scotsman's apparent conversion from hardline unionism mentioned above, it's all the more surprising that they seem to have pulled it.
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# 395 Maxanim
I accept the gist of your post but I sincerely hope that it never gets to the stage where we take up arms against our cousins in England, Wales and Northern Ireland. The thought of doing that is abhorrent to me. I have family down here in England and I would never contemplate taking up arms against them. Also, I cannot see the UK government using military force against a country of the Union that democratically decides to leave the Union. At least, I hope not.
The question was aimed at the Scottish pro-unionists who post here. Would they wholeheartedly back their country (Scotland) or renege on their country and join England, because if Scotland leaves the Union then there is no Union and, therefore, their pronouncements on the union become de facto null and void. Will they become fully Scottish or will they join England?
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#398 gedguy2
I did not mean to suggest that there was a close parallel to be drawn between the two cases so far as the precise nature of uncomfortable events in troubled times is concerned. I hoped to convey the idea that setbacks in troubled times can move a process forward and that, when that process reaches a certain point, a tipping point, if you like, there is a reversal of perceptions concerning what the normal state of affairs is.
If it is the case that at that point those who are not currently in favour of independence become reconciled to it in the main, then that would seem to indicate - would it not? - that allegiance could be expected to be transferred from the UK state to the new Scottish one in the main, even in the case of many of those residents of Scotland who originated on the other side of the Border, although they might not think so now.
We should not be afraid to refer to certain aspects of the independence process in other societies, with which our histories differ in important respects, because there is a dynamic that can be observed and learned from.
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# 399 Maxanim
I hope I did not say that I thought there may be a parallel between what happened in Ireland and what is happening now in Scotland. Heaven forbid that!
But I'm still waiting for the more robust of the Unionists on this site to answer this question.
I tend to agree with you that when it comes down to it the majority of those avid Scottish supporters of the Union will take their rightful place within the confines of Scottish nationality.
I also suspect that the transition to independence when the Scottish parliment states that it is moving towards independence after a referendum will involve a fair amount of political and financial back-stabbing on both sides.
Even though I am a republican by nature I suspect that when the Queen realises that the Scots will have their independence, whether westminster wants it or not, that she will step in to allow a fair transition. After all, Alex Salmond has made it clear that the Queen will still remain the head of state for Scotland. So I am fairly confident that the transition will be reasonably fair.
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#400 gedguy2
I was confident that you were with me, actually.
It was just that I suddenly realized that, in referring to similarities between the two cases, I had not sufficiently made clear my appreciation of the important differences, for the sake of readers in general.
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Just a little point
Merseyside receives more from the EU than Ireland.
Ireland's position as a net beneficiary of EU funds is coming to an end. That was always the plan and they have used the aid they were given really well.
Of course the mad unionists on this blog insist that Scotland gets a huge subsidy from the UK - so what's the difference?
Are some begging bowls better than others?
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#402 sneckedagain
That is interesting.
Before it became independent, unionists told Irish supporters of independence that Ireland was too poor to be independent, that it was too dependent on support from the UK. A response to this was: we are poor because we are in the UK; were we not in it, we would be better off. The response to that response was: tosh. Does anything there sound familiar?
After independence Ireland had mixed fortunes, of course, for a time. Joining the EU and the eurozone made all the difference. Because of the position of relative disadvantage from which it was starting, it naturally required support from the EU and, as you point out, made such good use of it that it has broadly achieved the transformation that it set out to achieve and proved that it could prosper outside the UK and stand on its own feet. It is good to know that it is in a position to preserve the economic advances that it has made.
The unwillingness of unionists in Scotland to acknowledge how considerable Ireland's achievement has been is understandable in view of its very substantial implications for Scotland and for the independence movement here.
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The SNP has been mistaken in its approach to the credit crunch - it trusted Labour to take a consensus approach. Typical of the Unionists, they stabbed the SNP in the back and run down Scotland
In the mean time Bungler Brown is strutting the world stage, oh am I looking forward to the fall that will happen. Mendleson and Campbell are the main reason for bungler's rise in popularity, it won't last.
Who got us into this mess - answer Labour Party, there was the sub prime market in US, but home-grown causes are equally important:
- Labour cosying up to the city fat cats?
- Deregulation
- Regulator with out the capacity to regulate
- Banks lending seven times peoples wage for mortgages
- No cap on borrowing on credit cards
- Unregulated housing market
- Culture of rewarding high risk in city, i.e. with your, his, her theirs, and my pensions
Lesson of the week for SNP, ye cannae trust the unionist politicians. Go on the attack and highlight on whose watch two of the most distinguished, respected and long standing Scottish institutions have been brought to their knees!
AMcG
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#397 Brownedov:
I don't know if Coleman's article was pulled from the Scotsman site, but if so it now appears to be back (Ireland is still a success story – and Scotland could be, too). I also note that it has been deemed to be "Premium Content".
Ignoring the possibility that this classification is an oxymoron when it comes to the Scotsman, perhaps it is further evidence for your (conspiracy?!) theory that an editorial about-turn is underway...? It seems a no-brainer to me: if you want to increase circulation of your newspaper, stop insulting your potential readers.
#390 brigadierjohn: nice to hear from you buddy! I enjoyed your measured and conciliatory post.
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402
"The unwillingness of unionists in Scotland to acknowledge how considerable Ireland's achievement has been is understandable in view of its very substantial implications for Scotland and for the independence movement here."
I'd go further, there has been a longstanding feeling of superiority of Scots and looking down on their Irish cousins.
When Ireland and its economy began to do well, they poured money in to education, thus keeping their youngest and brightest at home Unionist Scots sneered and said it was down to subsidy from the EU.
The irony of which, has not been missed by me.
The unionists are again at it this week casting doubt on Scotland.
Would the Bank of Scotland or RBS have been in this position had Scotland been independent? Who knows, what we can say with certainity, this happened on Labour's watch!
A McG
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Would Alex Salmond please put an end to this and tell us precisely what he would have done that was different to the UK Government?
All I seem to be hearing is an Independent Scotland would have dealt with this situation better (despite HBOS and RBS needing bailed out!!!!) without any explanation as to what they would have done (which in my view would have been revolutionary given the GLOBAL crisis!).
Maybe now is the time Alex to tell everyone so that countries round the world can learn from this and implement your suggested measures to avoid this happening in the future.
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#387 vote_nat: Thanks for the information. In my ignorance I thought the terms were interchangeable. Isn't is wonderful that, while we may be old and decrepit, we can still learn something every day?
#388 cynicalHighlander: I claim no special authority for my opinions. I have some unique knowledge (personal experience), some general knowledge, a little specialist knowledge, gut instincts, and good judgement about people (I believe).
I have spent a lifetime reading "facts" and opinions from people with agendas. Some of them are very plausible. If the issue is important to me, I try to get information confirmed from as many reliable sources as possible.
These posts are not important to me. My opinions may be heartfelt or just passing thoughts. For today only. Please feel free to dismiss me as easily as a politician ditches his manifesto.
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gedguy2 #400:
I would suspect that if Scotland were to become independent then 99.9% of the people living there, from whever they come, would accept the reality whatever their previous views on the wisdom of the Union or otherwise. How could it be different?
A more interesting question perhaps, given that far more Scots live in England than English live in Scotland, is what would those Scots living in England who support independence do? Would they transfer their loyalty to England now that it too is independent, would they relocate to Scotland, or would they continue to take what England has to offer but maintain loyalty to what has become a foreign, if friendly, nation? I suspect that many would take option 3. Those Scots who live in England but support the Union would not find it quite as dificult a choice I suspect, but it would be interesting to see.
I also wonder if Sir Sean Connery would return home to pay his taxes in support of the independent Scotland for which has been such an outspoken advocate, but suspect I know the answer to that too.
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#405 forfar-loon
Thanks - I certainly couldn't find it last night, but perhaps I was in idiot mode. I agree their "Premium" policy is a little odd - I think the Times started out that way before realising an advertising model was needed.
Re content, I agree with you that they need to consider their readership more - as also pointed out by oldnat. Worth monitoring closely for a while, at least.
I also find the Grauniad well worth keeping an eye on, as that seems closer to NuLab than anyone else and seems to report their thinking (if that's not an oxymoron) sooner than other media. Even there, I've start to notice changes, albeit not in their hard-line unionist stance.
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# 409 MalcolmW2
I tend to agree with your assessment. I live in London as my family live down here and even if Scotland gets its independence I will not come home as my home is down here now with my family.
As to Sean Connery, as with everything else it would depend on what the taxes are. I would not condemn anyone for finding a way to avoid paying a higher rate of tax. After all, what right has anyone to tell you that you must pay them a percentage of the money you earn so that they can then spend your money in the way that suits them. In any other guise it is a protection racket. Don't get me wrong, I accept that there must be some taxes but it has got to the stage where there is just too much taxes taken off the ordinary working man/woman.
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