Superman or Clark Kent?
As billed, John Swinney duly turned defence into attack at the SNP conference in Perth. He confirmed a series of measures to benefit the Scottish economy, such as one hundred per cent rates relief for the smallest businesses.
Then he opened out into condemning Labour and the Prime Minister, in particular.
Instead of Superman, Mr Swinney views Gordon Brown as his alter-ego: mild-mannered, bumbling Clark Kent. Labour's financial credibility, according to Mr Swinney, "stands in tatters."
Specifically, the Finance Secretary said that the UK Government squandered Scotland's oil wealth over thirty years (most of them featuring a Conservative government but no matter.)
More directly re Labour, he accused the PM of fostering a credit-based housing bubble, of sending debt soaring and of neglecting bank regulation.
Gordon Brown had argued that the response to the economic crisis proved "the strength of the Union".
By contrast, Mr Swinney argued that the very crisis proved the absence of a British economic miracle. It was, he said, scorn in his voice, "more of the same Union dividend."
Privately, SNP strategists here in Perth say they're surprised that Mr Brown engaged in an attack upon the SNP (in a BBC Scotland interview) so soon after welcoming consensus towards the economic recovery package.
They say that, by doing so, he opened himself to attacks which would not have been possible had he remained perched on his pedestal.
Well, maybe.
Me, I think that Labour detestation of the SNP is visceral.
Further, the Glenrothes by-election fosters partisan politics.
Further, I suspect that Mr Brown believes he has the ear of the public right now - and wanted to get his message home.
For some time now, voters have been inclined to discount comment from Downing Street. Not at the moment.
So there we have it for now.
Labour trumpets the value of the economic rescue package, arguing further that it could not have been achieved by an independent Scotland.
The SNP talks about the crisis itself, arguing that small nations like Norway contrived to minimise such damage by taking action in the banking sector, earlier and more vigorously.
I'm 
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~08~RS~)
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Good news for small business. What services will be cut to free the money?
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If Brown really had the ear of the public, Brian, he would be calling a general election right now as he currently has the 'ear' of only 23% of his countrymen and a similar level in Middle Englandshire.
The vacuous arguments emanating from the Unionist side are comparable to the apologists of the 1940's Vichy Government.
The FSA are putting the mockers on the HBOS take over. Lloyds are not willing to play ball with Darling on his terms for the bank bail out, Sir Fred the Shred stays in place at RBOS until the end of December 2008 at the earliest.
Just what has Brown achieved? Well, apart from annoying the Irish, Norwegians, Swedes and Fins with his misguided comments about the arc of insolvency?
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Swinney's assertion that when the SNP does well Scotland does well has been borne out on so many occasions.
Westminster has threw tons of money at Govan following the two SNP by election victories there (compare it to Glasgow East before the SNP win).
Were Roy Lindsay to be the brightest of the bright, the most dynamic of the most dynamic there may almost be a case for voting Labour under the present circumstances.
But Roy, God love him would be completely lost in the hub of Westminster politics, he would simply join the rest of Labour's voting fodder.
Another SNP win, the first time ever an SNP two non council by elections win back to back, would send panic down the backs of London Unionists who would do what they do best.....throw money at the problem and/or accede to Scottish demands.
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It is doubly disappointing that Gordon allowed his distaste for the SNP to break the concordat on the financial crisis as it has alowed the Tories in England to break it too and we have much more to fear from a Tory revival in England than all 59 seats in Scotland let alone Glenrothes.
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have no idea where this mail nreaks the house rules - so I've toned it down, if that's possible? here goes...
Only Liebour can have the arrogance, and exhibit the sheer desperation, of essentially turning their own folly into political attack.
It really beggars belief. The sound of long-suffering unionist drones sensing that this financial tragedy can in fact be turned against the SNP really furthers the very clear point that they are a party NOT to be trusted, a party who like to see Scotland suffer.
I hope the people of Glenrothes act with conviction and volley them asunder!
Brown's latest fib is fulling no one. From the [seemingly buried] BBC 'Have you say' before the 'newsnight' special a few days ago.
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I think Scots are not so myopic that they can't see that Brown is rejuvenated by this crisis. Indeed, Labour posters are positively exuberant. It demonstrates convincingly that Labour are a party that enjoys seeing Scotland in trouble. Trouble that this party created (by adopting and endorsing Thatcherite policies) and then denying Scotland the power to intervene in its own defense through limiting the powers and resources available to our parliament.
We'll see how this plays in Glenrothes.
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Isn't it curious that the best argument put forward for the Union is via economic collapse! If this a Labour triumph, I'd hate to see a disaster! They want you to forget that Scotland is one of the most natural resource rich countries on the planet and is apparently the ONLY naturally resource rich country completely incapable of using its natural resources for itself. "Only within the union can Scottish resources be used to their full potential."
The great unionist lie. Fearmongers to the end.
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Let me get this straight. Brown doesn't do his job properly for ten years, then uses mass media to spin the entire debacle to his advantage - as a 'lifesaver' - when his action was, in fact, the ONLY action left next to full economic meltdown. So, Scotland takes a massive blow to it's long serving banking tradition and he uses this as an example of why Scottish nationalism can't work? Eh? I marvel at how unionists can celebrate the humiliation of their own country. Glenrothes, kick them out!
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Perhaps Gordon Brown should explain why Scotland was left exposed to the credit crunch in the first place, rather than use the very mess HE helped create as a tool to undermine the argument for Independence! I am completely aghast that not one Scottish journalist has even attempted to print anything about his involvement in the whole affair. Personally I believe the people can see the truth for what it is, and hope the people of Glenrothes kick this latest Labour lies/fearmongering into touch.
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I can only concur with the posters who are boiling mad at the sheer cheek of Gordon Brown!
Let's deregulate the banking system to allow risk motivated by greed to increase unchecked. Then we'll take the only action possible in the resultant crisis, and use this as some kind of support in our argument for the union!!
Alex Salmond has been statesmanlike in comparison. Keep on fighting for our £1B, Alex, in lieu of gaining the grown up economic levers of Independence!
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I could not believe gordon browns comments yesterday regarding Scotlands inability to handle fiscal affairs without englands help.He just convinced me to vote for independence.what good has labour done for scotlands economy in the last 50 years.We still have temporary traffic lights on the A82(loch lomondside) and i think they have been there for over 40 years!!Is this some kind of world record attempt.
Your not fooling anyone,gordon.We could,nt do any worse than you have.
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Ex-pat - you read what your hero Dave the Rave has said about Brown it is not that much different from Wee Eck or Swinney; so clearly Dave is inept as well. No doubt Vince Cable will be along soon saying the same differently, so by your logic he will be inept as well.
Handclapping will get what he most wants to resist 30 to 40 SNP MP's at the next election if the Unionists do not change tactic.
From leaks it appears Calman can not find any reason to remove powers from Holyrood nor for the continuation of Barnett. No Barnett only means even more control of Scottish pocket money by Westminster or that Calman agrees with the 80% of Scots who want full fiscal powers for Holyrood and to hand back pocket money to Westminster for the Armed Services and Foreign Office.
No taxation with out proper representation some one wisely once said.
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Some more from the BBC 'Have you say':
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So Brown has 'done whatever it takes'. The glee at the Labour conference showed that Labour politicians care more about power than ordinary folk left struggling with fuel poverty rising food prices and reduced pensions. Brown/Darling have some nerve using this to have a go at the SNP'. Just ignore the fact he was a disaster as chancellor, that he did NOTHING to prevent this situation. Typical Labour arrogance AND fearmongering. We need to GET OUT of this ruinous "Union" as soon as possible.
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What about banks that belong to the Swiss, Danes, Austrians, Belgians, Swedes, Fins and Kiwis? All small nations? How are their banks fairing? Are they borrowing like Gordon Brown? Big is not always good: Only the US and Japan can be considered prosperous; compare with the far greater number of small prosperous nations. At present the two small NZ banks appear to be doing OK.
Brown has some nerve attacking the SNP.
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So the SNP have reduced the size of their (in)famous 'arc of prosperity' to just include Norway.
What happened to the repeated comparisons to now-bankrupt Iceland?
What happened to the repeated comparisons to Ireland, whose economic model is so fragile that it is still the only Western country in full-blown recession?
And can you really still call it an 'arc' when it only consists of Norway (who had their own major banking crisis in the 90s, remember)?
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#3
"The vacuous arguments emanating from the Unionist side are comparable to the apologists of the 1940's Vichy Government"
I'm afraid that it is your ludicrous historical parallel that is vacuous.
Obviously you think you are being clever but this sort of nonsense gets us no where.
Incidentally I find the patronizing use of 'Englandshire' quite unacceptable, this is an example of the underlying unacceptable racist face of the SNP. If the SNP ever want to to have any real credibility then the leadership needs to root out this element in the same way that Labour rooted out Militant.
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The SNP has been mistaken in its approach to the credit crunch - it trusted Labour to take a consensus approach. Typical of the Unionists, they stabbed the SNP in the back and run down Scotland
In the mean time Bungler Brown is strutting the world stage, oh am I looking forward to the fall that will happen. Mendleson and Campbell are the main reason for bungler's rise in popularity, it won't last.
Who got us into this mess - answer Labour Party, there was the sub prime market in US, but home-grown causes are equally important:
- Labour cosying up to the city fat cats?
- Deregulation
- Regulator with out the capacity to regulate
- Banks lending seven times peoples wage for mortgages
- No cap on borrowing on credit cards
- Unregulated housing market
- Culture of rewarding high risk in city, i.e. with your, his, her theirs, and my pensions
Lesson of the week for SNP, ye cannae trust the unionist politicians. Go on the attack and highlight on whose watch two of the most distinguished, respected and long standing Scottish institutions have been brought to their knees!
AMcG
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Ex-pat at #11
You're comparing the Norwegian crisis to Brown and his American buddies 30-yard fumble? LOL! Do me a favour.
The Norwegian banking crisis was resolved quickly with little cost to the taxpayer. Private solutions were widely used in the first stage of the crisis and banks' share capital was wiped out before any government funds were committed.
The government did not provide a blanket guarantee, although general public statements were made to secure confidence in the Norwegian banking system. And, separate asset management companies were not established.
In Norway today, Banks' capital cushions are much better. They have better and more balanced macroeconomic policies. And, the flexible inflation targeting regime supports their twin goals of price and financial stability.
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#12 - darwinsmonkey, if you really want to see racism tagged onto real political flesh, then I'd suggest you ponder post-devolution Labour politics on the English!
As a Scottish-nat I really feel for them! They want to get rid of Brown and his cronies just as much as we do!...
...and you know full well that the SNP really represent a common movement of ALL races and creeds against the abhorrent and bland politics pushed by this LUDICROUS Labour government.
Labour OUT in Glenrothes. YES to the SNP and positive futures!
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#12 darwinsmonkey
We got rid of Militant but we got Blair's New Labour instead. Yes it got us elected but at what cost to our real socialist principles?
Anyway I don't want the SNP becoming electible by getting rid of their undesireables. If they still have their racists we can use that aginst them.
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Inc. Brian. - Superman or Clark Kent?
Neither.
More like Mr.Bean's morose London cousin, 'Has'.
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#12 darwinsmonkey: Steady on! Wasn't #3 simply using "Middle Englandshire" as shorthand for the pockets of "Middle England" spread through all of the counties of England. In other words those crucial middle class swing voters that Brown needs to woo if he wants to win the next UK general election. I don't see anything patronising or racist in that. Just a useful shorthand.
It seems to me that you have revealed rather more of your prejudice than slaintemha has of his. In which case you would do well to pay heed to the immortal words of Georg Lichtenberg:
"Every man has his moral backside which he refrains from showing unless he has to and keeps covered as long as possible with the trousers of decorum."
Pedantic point: can the SNP (or anything)have an "underlying face"?
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brian i dont think brown is clark kent or superman i think hes more of a doctor doom
Doctor Doom is a fictional character that appears in the comic books published by Marvel Comics. The character first appeared in Fantastic Four #5 (July 1962), and was created by writer Stan Lee and artist Jack Kirby.
After a failed experiment leaves his face disfigured, the brilliant but arrogant Victor von Doom casts a set of armor and sets out to dominate the world, as well as to destroy his archenemy Mister Fantastic of the Fantastic Four. He is the absolute monarch of the fictional European nation of Latveria, which he rules with an iron fist.
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#20 - SNPforINDEPENSE
Touched as I am by your compliment, I can only assume you are one of AM2's/ Reluctant-Expat's Northern Irish stooges.
Voting SNP has nothing to do with any anti-English feeling. I can assure you. The English have their own miseries at hand with this Labour Westminster govt., and have nothing but sympathy for them
Sorry Reluctant-Expat - your moronic trolling has no room here. Reported.
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The arrogance of Brown is beyond belief, when the excrement hit the fan, it was a world problem, not his; yet when the world oil price falls, it is somehow his doing. Now he has the gall to criticise the power and fuel companies for not reducing prices; prices which in the case of fuel are about 80% tax albeit only 5% in the case of gas and electricity; all fuels of course taxed at production, delivery and usage. If he really was concerned about " people's fuel bills " he could cut this obscene tax. He blames the finance houses for the world's ills, but in Britain it goes much deeper, polititians are greedy and self seeking, builders, estate agents, speculators , developers and of course irresponsible and sometimes desperate house buyers fuelled the housing and borrowing bubble which caused the problem. However at the root of it all was the government spending cash it did not have on vote winning social programmes aimed at building a supporter base of dependent voters. With the "official " unemployed figures and the numbers massaged onto disability, the total is now somewhere around 5 million.
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I am at a loss to understand this new, 'saviour of us all' rubbish that Brown seems to be wallowing in. What has he done? Well he more or less nationalised most of the UK banks whilst leaving for the most part, the disgraceful clowns who ran them in charge. It's not enough to dump the CEOs.
As many posters here have pointed out, Brown has presided over and actively connived at this credit bubble we now have to face. The, 'light touch regulation' policy has left us in a very perilous position. It has even extended to broadcasting and look what a mess that is in.
The New Labour experiment has failed. In the end it was simply a case of carrying out the plans that Thatcher had but did not implement for fear of a cabinet revolt and public disorder.
Unfortunately for Brown and company, Scotland has had a taste of freedom under the SNP. This is a freedom that if the polls are correct has gone down very well with voters. Certainly there have been a lot of populist interventions eg., hospital closures, and hospital car-parking charges. Things that the Labour/Liberal clack actually put in place in their caring, men and women of the people way. However, they have proved that they listen to the people and have as far as possible pushed real chages through despite being a minority government.
I have grown tired of the, "the Union has been good for Scotland " brigade. What they say in reality is that we in Scotland are too feckless and incompetent to run our own affairs. I and millions like me resent this in extremis. Scotland can and will take control of its own destiny. As I have said before, we must be free to make our own mistakes but we must be free from the sleazy machinations of governments who forget Scotland actually exists until a bye-election.
Brown may think he's riding high right now basking in the glow from the fiscal meltdown he has encouraged and partly caused. This Numpty Dumpty is heading for a very great fall.
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19. Stop, please!
In the name of all that is holy, stop!
My sides.....!
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#20, you really need to take control of your 'Caps Lock' key.
As far as the SNP being racist? why not ask Gordon brown? I know what answer you will get.
It kind of reminds me of the other night when a member of an audience at a John McCain rally in the US started to rant that Obama was a muslim terrorist and McCain rightly put the old biddy in her place.
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Brown's attempts to take the credit for the money that has been pumped into stemming the banking collapse is reminiscent of the reckless driver who's caused a crash and then wants to be thanked for phoning for an ambulance. When Brown himself said during the week that he wasn't 'Flash' Gordon. He was correct. 'Crash' Gordon is a far nore appropriate title!
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Ah the good old union dividend 'Broon Together, Boom Together, Bust Together!'
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Reluctant Ex-pat - Ireland many well be in technical recession (as we will be once the quarterly growth figures are published) but it has increased the size of its economy by some 90% over the past decade. Even allowing for a significant reversal, they will still be in a much stronger position that we currently are: Ireland's GDP per capita, in 2007 was $ 46,600; the UK's $ 35,000.
Further, the Irish government has managed to restore confidence in nine banks - no Northern Rocks, no Bradford & Bingleys, no forced nationalisations and all without shelling out £67billion. Also, given its low debt-to-GDP ratio (25%), it is well placed to recover and recapitalise banks if necessary. One thing Ireland isn't, is insolvent. And of course, it a member of the Euro which has appreciated some 20% against sterling.
All in all, I'd rather be in Dublin than Dagenham, Dyffed, Derry or Dundee for the duration.
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For a little light relief, which current PM and ex-chancellor and said to assembled masses:
"What you, as the City of London, have achieved for financial services we, as a government, now aspire to achieve for the whole economy."
Mansion House, Thursday June 27 2002
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"The vacuous arguments emanating from the Unionist side are comparable to the apologists of the 1940's Vichy Government."
That is the sort of comment that gives me deep misgivings about political nationalism i.e. the politics of difference and separation. As if falling over themselves to invent non-existent differences with England wasn't enough, an comparison with the Nazis has to be forced in.
I'm afraid it reinforces my gut feeling that political nationalism is, at its very best, just a little bit creepy and not an appropriate activity for grown-ups.
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28. Oh dear, someone else has swallowed the SNP party line.
Ireland is in recession having reported two successive periods of negative growth (and is still the only country in Europe to actually be in recession).
The UK has not reported one period of negative growth yet.
I'll let you decide which country has the more robust economy.
Ireland's growth has also been heavily financed by 40 years of multi-billion grants-in-aid from the EU (much of it of course financed by the UK, one of the few net contributors to the EU).
Today, total grants-in-aid to Ireland are the equivalent of 50% of Ireland's GDP. Add that to Ireland's self-created 25% of GDP debt and Ireland's true debt is 75% of GDP (compared to the UK's 43%).
Ireland will still receive EU grants until 2012 and will not be expected to become a net contributor (like the UK) until 2013.
As for GDP per capita; Ireland's economy is heavily foreign-owned which corrupts 'GDP' calculations. The Irish Government prefers to use the 'GNP' measure, which in turn shows a far-smaller Irish lead over the UK, to your figure, at $48,000 to $43,000:
GDP includes the output of the multinational sector, which is very significant in Ireland (over 90% of Irish exports are made by foreign-owned firms), it is more useful to use Gross National Product.....In other OECD countries, there is only a marginal difference between GDP and GNP.
Furthermore, the author of that 'analysis' you so readily quote, is a former mid-level economist at the ECB who is now an economics journo on a local Irish radio station. Research your sources.
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29. You make it too easy.
Alex Salmond: "He personifies the success in business and public service that we want to see for the whole of Scotland."
Who's he speaking about? None other than Sir George Mathewson, former chairman of the now-nationalised RBS.
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A former-executive who brought a flagship bank to the brink of failure and a journo for a local radio station.
Yep, the SNP really can rely on the big guns to promote their cause.
Anyway, about that Economics Nobel Laureate who was praising Gordon Brown in the New York Times the other day.........
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Labour's hatred of the SNP (esp Gordon's) has led them into another tactical error and again they will pay.
#30 political nationalism - in the Scottish context, at least - is overwhelmingly not the politics of separation and difference.
That is why the SNP have polled so well amongst minority groups historically, and why one of the great slogans to come from Scottish Nationalism is: "Stop the world, Scotland wants to get on" (Winnie Ewing).
By contrast modern (post-socialist) Labour politics is the politics of separation and difference. They say to one side vote for us for 'class reasons' i.e. 'my da voted labour' pretending nothing has changed; they then turned around and say to the other we are "intensely relaxed about people getting filthy rich" (Zombie-Mandelson).
That way, they hope to construct an all-powerful hatred of the underclass for the rich few; and a equal habitual hatred of the rich few (themselves excluded, obviously) by the unfortunate squashed by their Neo-Thatcherite policies. (think back to the tops and tails wearers in the recent by-election down south - crewe I believe?)
They are also thoroughly at home with mobilising sectarian sentiment against opposition candidates (as they did in Glasgow East) while condemning the problem of 'Scotland's Secret Shame' in public.
Never understood why it was a 'secret shame'anyway, as it appeared loud and clear on the Unionist side for the 300th anniversary of the Union, when the only people prepared to celebrate it were the Orange Order!
So please think long and hard before condemning modern civic nationalism as divisive. Especially, when nationalism's opponents are making such appeals as listed above - nevermind the whole 'British jobs for British workers' (National Front borrowed slogans).
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Funny that, how anyone who thinks Scottish Independence is a good idea is immediately branded an SNP head banger, a racist etc. I am not an SNP party member or supporter but I do support Scottish Independence.
I think that the excuses given by supporters of Vichy for their polices and claims of patriotism to France reflect accurately the posts coming from the likes of ex-pat, one hand et al.
They are basically from the same context of fear, loathing and concern about what will happen to them when the Union is no longer there to protect them.
The same will happen when Vichy collapsed, apart from a few key players who had behaved appallingly to their own people, nothing. Many ex-Vichy politicians took seats in De Gaulle's first legislature.
So yet again we see how Unionist supporters in their panic and fear try and create a monster that does not in fact exist except in their own fearful minds.
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Does anyone else occasionally wonder how much support the SNP would have if they didn't support independence?
All this frenzied agreement, across multiple blogs and media sites, about the proposed LiT, the scrapping of hospital car park charges, the scrapping of Forth bridge tolls, the cut in some prescription charges....
Do you think this would still all exist if independence was not an SNP policy?
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How dare Mr. Swinney compare Gordon to Clark Kent! Kent was a decent, honourable man, who worked tirelessly for the good of his community without trying to boast about it or take the credit.
Gordon couldn't be further from his twin!
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I'm disgusted at the coverage (or should I say non-coverage) of the SNP conference in Perth.
The Labour and Conservative conferences were constantly on TV during their conferences - Labour in particular if I remember.
Isn't it time the likes of the BBC got their heads out of the sand and noticed the change in the political atmosphere within Scotland?
This behaviour of ignoring our government, albeit a minority one, just enhances the strength of SNP supporters.
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# 8 Gingerbadger
I can't see what you have said wrong either, but then again I haven't read your first post. However, on reading this one I tend to agree with you.
# 20 SNPforINDEPENSE
Steady on. Take a chill pill.
Still waiting for the Unionists to answer the question about what they would do if/when Scotland gets its independence.
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# 38 quietscotsmac
Careful, someone will add this post to their conspiracy list.
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*Reluctant-Expat
I think the S-NATIONAL-Party bit gives it away. And as to a Unionist party doing these VERY popular, populist things...na, it was Lab/Lib who put all the unpopular things there in the first place. And apart from Aunty Annabel (whom I absolve from censure because she is in the wrong party!), the Tories wouldn't have let us have a parliament in the first place.
People who vote for and support the SNP's views and performance are not half-wits, they are now a fair cross section of the country and growing. They KNOW the SNP is dedicated to an Independent Scotland but they also know that within the current setup they have done very well indeed.
Trumpeting this litany of 'failed promises' is unhelpful. If the promises were so good, why did Labour, LibDem and Tories not support them when the SNP tried to get them passed in Parliament? No, it was ya boo politics and sour grapes from failed parties. The fact that the SNP has achieved so much as a minority government says a great deal about their skills and abilities. It should be, "Give us the tools and we'll finish the job".
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It's highly unlikely an independent Scotland would have had regulation in place to deal with the recession.
The example set by Ireland and Iceland would entail a regulation bonfire. They would, after all, be Scotland's competitors and we'd have to keep up with them in creating a 'business-friendly environment'.
Furthermore, the nationalist belief in an inherently Scottish trait of financial wizardry makes it unlikely they'd press for strict regulation. It would mean admitting that a much-cherished trait did not actually exist.
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41. Trumpeting this litany of 'failed promises' is unhelpful. If the promises were so good, why did Labour, LibDem and Tories not support them when the SNP tried to get them passed in Parliament?
Oh dear.
No bills were passed for these broken manifesto pledges, they were simply arbitrarily dropped by the SNP for reasons unknown.
Still think they are wonderful and perfect?
Of course you do.
And please enlighten us all with your list of the SNP's most magnificent seven achievements!
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# Anaxim
"It's highly unlikely an independent Scotland would have had regulation in place to deal with the recession."
More opinion than fact I believe!
Fact our southern neighbours keep telling us that the financial markets contribution to the UK economy are vital, the markets fail = recession.
Scotland has a more varied economy base and if markets fail the impact will be far less severe.
Fact the present PM Brown has told the petrol retailers to reduce their prices at the forecourt he seems to forget that the fuel we are using now was bought over a month ago when prices were higher and it is trade in dollars. The pound has gone down in relation to the dollar it should make one question what was this guy's job before his present one oh chancellor that explains his total ignorance.
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"Labour trumpets the value of the economic rescue package, arguing further that it could not have been achieved by an independent Scotland. "
Again I ask: Do they really believe that a country so rich in natural resources could not secure a 37 billion loan? Did Labour take out the 37 billion on loan using the oil and gas as collateral? 37 billion is less than half of Scottish GDP!
I want facts and figures please, can they prove Scotland couldn't have secured 37 billion having such rich natural resources?... there's the question.
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#43
I don't have time to list seven achievements of the SNP but I can tell you the most important one.
The SNP government have brought HOPE and a CAN DO attitude to Scots.
For far too many generations we've been told we're useless without the English government and we 'need' the English government to even exist. (That's after the English government have milked our assets of course).
It's amazing when people think positively what can eventually be done. I do hope they continue their good works.
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People voting for the SNP that do not support independence would probably be voting because Labour and the Tories have been at it for so long and both are pretty much the same party now. As for the Lib dems well they jump into bed with whoever is in power except the SNP obviously so your not gonna vote for them. The Green party ... good idea but they all tend to not know what they want ie ... nuclear is evil but wind farms spoil the landscape and birds get minced. Then youve got all the silly partys Scottish Socialists etc who want us hard working folks to pay scroungers with problems ooooo ..... no thanks ... So that leaves the SNP which altho im a supporter anyway i think it is good that they are haveing a shot at the steering wheel. Now all you unionists.... if your not happy you know where the border is cos youd better get used to the fact Alex and co are gonna be here for a good while .... independence or not.
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cynicalHighlander #44
You say Scotland has a more varied economy base than our southern neighbours.
Purely from a layman's viewpoint, I cannot think of any industry (in broad-ish terms)that we have, that's not also replicated down south. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if the contrary applies, and they've a wider variance than us.
I admit I've not done any research on this, it's just my impression, that's all. I'd be happy if you could perhaps enlighten the matter with a few examples.
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48 ... well i dont think there are many ski centres !!! but then with the current climate changes we wont either for long :o(}
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rabbiehippo # 49
Lol!!
But on that subject it wouldn't surprise me if there are more ski centres, and per-capita better supported, down south than there are up here - albeit with fake snow, but nonetheless cold, wet and white!
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44. Scotland has a more varied economy base and if markets fail the impact will be far less severe.
You mean, apart from the 25% of the economy that is related to the oil industry.
And another 10% that is the faltering financial industry - which was also the fastest growing until the crunch came along, growing four times faster than the rest of the economy.
So that's over a third of the entire economy based on just TWO sectors. One is in serious trouble and the other (the largest, by far) is on the decline.
Get realistic for once.
Again, I have to say that if the case for independence is so strong, why do the nationalists s repeatedly make claims that simply aren't true?
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50 aye i forgot about the indoor ones ... but its not the same .. mind you the ski centres up here are now adapting to mountain biking in the non snow months so hopefully they will survive on that. Personally i think that wind turbine factory thats closing/closed down in the south west of Scotland should have been bought over by the government or somebody and put to good use ... especially if we want to cut down on co2.
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Re 48 Planejock
I have to say that my instinct is the same as yours, I certainly don't believe that we have a significantly more varied economic base in Scotland than in England. I suspect that the perception that we do is from comparing Scotland to London, however if we take the rest of England into account, then I suspect we are more alike than not.
I like the idea that we have more ski slopes, but I doubt that it makes a real difference to anyone other than those who work in that industry.
Perhaps the kilt & bagpipe industry is our differentiator ..... och aye the noo :-)
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Before I comment - I sit neutral at the moment with regards to independence and any allegiance to a particular party.
So I will have a pop at everyone.
Labour - allowed lack of regulation to flourish and borrowed far too much money. The Tories may have had similar policies but at least the UK was not steeped in the levels of debt we have today.
SNP - all we have heard in the past couple of weeks is how this would never have happened under an (SNP governed obviously) independent Scotland. But where did the SNP state that they would wish strong regulation to be brought into the financial markets?
Alex Salmond's plan to rescue HBOS would be to inject 100 billion. Where on earth would an independent Scottish economy find that level of money? Bear in mind the sharp fall in oil prices.
Some of John Swinney's plans are welcome, but the SNP need to stop using other small countries as examples - only for them to blow up in their faces.
Swinney also indicated that the failure to stem the financial crisis showed that the UK is no good. How then would Scotland cope on its own? Oil money to be ploughed into the failing banks?
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Brown and Darling- guilty as charged. Thatcher, Major, Blair, - guilty but for obscure reasons not charged. What's Salmond and Swinney's excuse- it wisnae me?
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Scotland could really do with some of the benefits of that 25% of the economy about now.
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#55 - its a reserved matter (as we are always being told) Salmond and Swinney are meant to smile through not being allowed to make economic decisions of consequence; and then take the flack for the failed UK strategies too?
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54 aye good points ... as a staunch SNP supporter im hoping nothing major goes wrong like a love scandal or something lol ... but i agree that they will need to fight harder to win over more people and not take us for granted. But i am sure they will. As ive said before ... a lot of whats gone wrong with the banks means that the regulations will have to be tightened and i doubt the same wrecklessness with lending thousands to tramps to buy old sofas and cardboard boxes will continue. Its better it happened now than after a/the referendum on independence.
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48. Planejock
This link will give a broad view.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Scotland
Don't forget we are self sufficient in food and energy requirements, all surpluses are exported.
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56. Every penny of Scotland's oil revenues has been spent in Scotland.
Has anyone proven otherwise?
Has the SNP, will full access to public accounts, proven otherwise?
No.
Why do you think that is?
(cue Brownedov and one of his conspiracies)
57. I suppose Salmond and Swinney never discuss reserved matters.
Apart from energy, criminal law, taxation, foreign affairs....oh, and the constitution.
And weren't they meant to be publishing their own policies on reserved matters? What happened to that?
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i should add to 58 that it is over a year till the referendum anyway and by then the situation should have calmed down and the arguement that Scotland would have been knackered if it went alone and the same banking errors happened will be forgotten. At least to the majority of non political public.
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"Me, I think that Labour detestation of the SNP is visceral."
I think the Brahan seer, as some of you call him, has seen through the not terribly opaque Labour attitude to their principal opponents in Scotland. On the subject of the increasingly intriguing topic of detestation in politics, particularly detestation which appears to be directed at the Scottish National Party, its followers and admirers, the following observations are offered as a token of my sincere concern as a disinterested witness of the darkening scene that is unfolding as the economic impact of the global financial crisis begins to take effect in Scotland.
Following an altercation with a belligerent Earthling of egregiously low intellect and bafflingly poor communication skills who appeared to challenge my right to exist because I had apparently failed to register confidence in and undying loyalty to the UK overlords, in whom I am not greatly interested, I have continued with undiminished zeal to wend my merry way along the pends and wynds and past the windy gates of windy west Fife, where the enemies of the UK state have officially launched their Glenrothes by-election campaign.
What a jolly bunch of jolly decent folk these courageously principled SNP activists turn out to be. Not in the least detestable, as it seems to me. That there are those who apparently do detest them leaves me nothing short of gobsmacked, as you denizens of the UK realm have taken to saying without the degree of dignity that one is accustomed to encountering in more advanced societies. But enough of the Republic of Ireland and other admirable small independent states, the insolent existence and well established viability of which are currently causing the unionist majority in the Scotland unit of the UK state to experience such alarming fits of apoplexy and malignant dyspepsia, not to mention rampant hysteria and even, so it seems, a degree of incontinence, as a cursory perusal of this discussion forum's recent content reveals to even the casual observer.
Not that I am a casual observer, you understand, as my previous communication would appear to testify, even if I do say so myself. The thoroughness of my conscientious scrutiny of the Glenrothes constituency and its immediate surroundings is, I think, a prerequisite for informed comment, although others may conceivably not agree. As thorough scrutiny and the absorption of the product of it requires a certain attention span, the populist UK media, i.e. practically all of them, do not seem to go in for that sort of thing very much. Therefore, a certain amount of ferreting out of background information is required, tedious though these preliminaries may seem to be to belligerent Earthlings of egregiously low intellect and bafflingly poor communication skills.
As tempers are evidently still somewhat frayed among the defenders of the status quo following the recent intervention of a certain Irish economist, whose considered and rational contribution to public debate on this side of the Irish Sea has met with such an ill-considered and irrational response from those who do not care for what he has to say, I shall refrain for the moment from examining the SNP campaign, which has no doubt caused tempers to flare and normally stiff upper lips to quiver with indignation and so forth. Having witnessed some of the pillorying of Mr Coleman and the unceremonious public incineration of his not unimpressive credentials, one can only conclude that the standard of public debate and respect for freedom of expression are not what they once were here and that one had better be careful not to find oneself in the pillory for expressing a dissenting view, particularly one which is liable to be interpreted as more dissident than merely dissenting.
Although out of politeness, at least, one might be disposed to wish to gaze in admiration at the UK state, to which so many here object, it cannot but appear to be, unfortunately, particularly in comparison with the Irish one, rather quaint and anachronistic. On the one hand you have an old and debilitated kingdom with all the ancient paraphernalia that monarchy abounds in, and on the other you have a relatively young and vibrant republic. There is, of course, no written constitution that the hereditary UK head of state provides for her subjects to examine, whereas the citizens of the Celtic republic that is so maligned here do indeed have such a document, which anyone may examine, in Gaelic or English (both of which languages it shares with Scotland, of course), to see personally what principles the state is founded upon and what his or her rights and duties are.
In the Celtic state all citizens of the republic are equal and are entitled to representation in and to election to both houses of the legislature, although slightly differing age qualifications apply in the case of the upper house. In the UK legislature's upper house, as we have been reminded today, having just witnessed the admission to it of its latest grandee, a long-established member of the central political class who was recently appointed to the inner sanctum of Labour Party UK overlordship although not an elected representative of the people, no subject of the Queen may don an ermine gown and strut about like a lord by virtue of having been elected to that chamber. No, that is not the UK way, it seems. Nonetheless, on this side of the Irish Sea it is accepted apparently unquestioningly as if it were rational and democratically defensible. On the other side of that expanse of water, on the other hand, not to mention practically everywhere else, this state of affairs may understandably look rather different, as indeed it does to those in Scotland who challenge the established order of things and cannot suppress a smile of amusement as the latest member of "the people's party" to don an ermine gown struts about in apparent emulation of a lord gazing down at them with the disdain of a scion of the privileged classes of this ancient kingdom.
Is one permitted to be amused at and less than overwhelmed by the questionable institutions of the UK state, or must one be torn limb from limb for presuming to indicate that one is not convinced that, in comparing the UK state with the Celtic one, the larger one is obviously superior in quality? To the rational mind it is eminently understandable that loyalty to the UK state is something which cannot be taken for granted in the remaining Celtic portions of its territory. It is, in fact, hardly credible that it still exists at all in the arguably anachronistic and decrepit form in which one finds it to be still surviving, barely surviving. One appreciates how it might come to pass that a brave soul such as the former socialist MP for Fife Central (Glenrothes, as it is now), Willie Hamilton, became a republican. That the constituents of Glenrothes voted for a republican for many years is, to say the least, an interesting commentary on their arguable potential for selecting as their representative in the UK legislature a member of a party which rejects the UK state.
This electorate is now faced with an opportunity to vote for a party which rejects the UK and its arguably outdated constitution. Together with the wider electorate it may care to consider whether it is any more appropriate to give their support to a party of which it can be said with justice that its "detestation of the SNP is visceral". Detestation is detestable, and it is irrational. Is it rational to support rationality or irrationality? Which is more rational in the present day and age: the citizenship of the Irish within a prosperous independent republic which enjoys European Union and eurozone membership in its own right or the status of the Scots as subjects of an apparently less prosperous monarchical state within which they are a dependent and supplicant minority? I merely pose the question in a way in which it seems to me to deserve to be posed. I do not presume to answer it. The electorate will do that.
Toodloothenoo.
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46. At 8:13pm on 17 Oct 2008, quietscotsmac wrote:
#43
I don't have time to list seven achievements of the SNP but I can tell you the most important one.
The SNP government have brought HOPE and a CAN DO attitude to Scots.
----------------------------------------------------
quietscotsmac you got it wrong, the SNPs most important achievement is that they deported Reluctant-Expat, never to return.
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Gordon Brown has pulled a fast one. I think time will tell if the bailout was the answer. It may be. Anyhow, what is he doing comparing himself to Churchill, a tory just like his other friend Thatcher. Brown has clearly swallowed the hype that he is some sort of Superman. That reminds me of the famous quote : -
' you can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the time'
People will soon realise that we got in this mess during Brown's 10 years of cozying up to the bankers and the city. That doesn't mean much to a lot of people now but wait until; -
- job losses mount
- repossessions increase
- inflation goes up
- energy bills arrive this winter
And Brown has the audacity to claim that we are better of in the Union. Beggars belief.
Freedom
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cynicalHighlander #59
Could be wrong, but now just getting the feeling you're beginning to wriggle a bit on this one.
You said (your #44):
Quote
Scotland has a more varied economy base and if markets fail the impact will be far less severe.
Unquote
My 48 enquired:
"I'd be happy if you could perhaps enlighten the matter with a few examples."
So then you refer me to Wikipedia(!?) - but it won't have escaped you, that hardly answers the point. To persist, exactly where is the Scottish economy more broadly based than that down south?
I wish it was different, but I do think you're wrong on this one.
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63 lol ... but he will continue to taunt us from afar ...
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#60 - R. Expat, D minus, Must do better.
Addressing the claims you made,
"Every penny of Scotland's oil revenue has been spent in Scotland" UNTRUE
That is why they have created a fantasy 'extra-regio' status for North Sea Oil to ensure they're is no Scottish sector then?
Gordon Brown has explicitly said he will not transfer even a percentage [Scotland's share is 87.5-92.5% by most estimates - far lower in natural gas admittedly] of the oil revenue to Scotland. Ask yourself, why he would do that without ever mentioning 'everything is already spent in Scotland'? Because he knows it is simply un-true, as do you!
Otherwise he would simply do it, take away a roughly equal portion of the bloc grant and 'shoot the nationalist fox' once and for all. Now why would he be unwilling to do that? Lets see ...
Your 2nd 'point', doesn't even merit the term really: more of a sneid remark than anything else, failing to answer the question or provide any evidence as usual!
Yes, Salmond and Swinney do put forward policy suggestions on reserved matters occasionally; but in what way does that make them answerable for Blair and Brown?s disasters?
Alex Salmond has a view on the war in Iraq, by your logic he is also answerable for UK policy on that!
Or, are you seriously suggesting that both Governments will not raise each other's records in the upcoming by-election?! Or even that both Governments should not raise them?!
Get a grip. Reality is out there: search, find re-engage.
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58. At 9:48pm on 17 Oct 2008, rabbiehippo wrote:
54 aye good points ... as a staunch SNP supporter im hoping nothing major goes wrong like a love scandal or something lol ... but i agree that they will need to fight harder to win over more people and not take us for granted.
They need to change tactics. The "Scotland wants this and that" argument from Alex Salmond blew up in his face with Chris Hoy pointing out that he trained in England due to lack of facilities in Scotland.
The idea to give HBOS 100 billion was also a mess, especially when El Gordo gave them far less. And I thought Alex Salmond was an economist. I may be wrong, but Alex was following the same basic principles of propping the bank up (and I fully understand the dangers of a bank being allowed to fail) but he may have ended up losing 100 billion! For the UK that's affordable to a degree, but not to a small country.
Then we get the "give us a billion pounds NOW" approach. It's all wrong. Or it may be a deliberate ploy to annoy the English and gain sympathy from Scotland.
The Swinney approach re business taxes etc is far more sensible and realistic. And he doesn't come on all smug about it either. Alex may have the charisma but little chinks are starting to appear here and there.
The small country argument is definitely out. Most people, even those that are sympathetic to the SNP, will think twice about independence.
It's still early days yet and things can change one way or the other.
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#60 Reluctant-Expat
"Has the SNP, will full access to public accounts, proven otherwise?"
No conspiracies, no rants, just a simple correction.
Neither the Scottish Government nor any political party except arguably NuLab has any access to the detailed accounts maintained by HM Treasury, nor are they externally audited.
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#62
Greetings, O' fluxed one.
A banana republic, is your considered assumption of the Glenrothes area?
my..my..you do have a low opinion of
Scottish history and the general mood of the voting public.
May I ask, to what constitution do you refer too? (the treaty of arbroath?)
Again you deal a whole lot of nothing.
Visceral attempt to add pain to pain, from the fur-ball with a dodgy satellite.
I know it may be difficult for you to communicate (oh, dark one) just lighten up a bit....try and be clear with your dialect.
In the mean time......peace be with you!
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I saw the BBC's Scottish political editor discussing SNP policy on Newsnight tonight prior to Salmond's interview.
It was nice to hear Brian Taylor emphasise that the SNP stand for "Independence in the European Union". That should be made clear far more so than it is as there is a world of difference between real independence and membership of the EU - although Iceland may not think so after having been hung out to dry.
Alex Salmond's interview seemed to consist of him denying and repudiating virtually every claim he's made over the last few years including an acknowledgement that he did not foresee any problems in the financial world until it happened. Of course, to be fair, he is not alone there!
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#63 vote_nat
"they deported Reluctant-Expat, never to return."
I think you've got that wrong.
Remember Brian's astute comment that "Labour detestation of the SNP is visceral."
He (women are less prone to misunderstanding nuances) claims to be required to work in England, but clearly has little actual work to do.
Then look at the timing of Expat's postings - they don't coincide with House of Commons votes.
His loathing not only of the SNP but of any individual who he thinks (sometimes wrongly) is an SNP member, suggests that he has tipped over the edge of rational thought.
Combine that with his easy access to an anti-SNP database then you have to see him as a Labour MP (my guess is that he also hates electricians).
He'll be returned at the next GE - but to Scotland, not Westminster!
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Just back from visiting London to see the Hadrian Exhibition at the BM.
I hadn't realised that the Ceremony for the British Olympiads was taking place next to our hotel, but watched the parade (I've always felt that the English always do a great job in ceremonial).
I amazed Mrs Nat by accepting one of the Union Flags on offer!
I took it because it was a wonderful metaphor for the modern UK that Labour and Tories have created.
It was made of plastic. On one side it had the Union flag - it was backed by an advert for Visa Credit Cards.
Says it all really.
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Chris Hoy has been training for thirty years. The SNP has been in govt 18 months. How can they be blamed for Scotland not having enough decent training facilities? The Union dividend yet again I suppose...
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Way hay....! oldnat ... have you been out for a few nippy sweetys ?
Neil ... re Chris Hoy ... i know he trained in England but the way i took it was it was a dig at Edinburgh for closing the velodrome ... and he did also say that he would ride as a scotsman if that moment arose.At the end of the day .. more money has to be available for our athletes to train and i dont mean football because they generally make too much on a professional level anyway. Cyclists have to spend a fortune on equipment that they have to find themselves .
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#71
Jam804, I think you got that spot on.
AS does often refer to himself as an economist, he was blind to this down-turn,
even his ministers, got it wrong with the inflation increase.
This hasn't stopped the snp from enforcing its efficiency saving on the likes of Glenrothes council,which will certainly have a big effect on the voting, come Nov.
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#73 oldnat
You could have taken that metaphor a step further.
Plastic is derived from oil and most of the wealth from the North Sea has found its' way into the pockets of the big financial institutions and the their billionaire beneficiaries.
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oldnat # 73.
Regret we're not in any position to throw stones.
Every time we pull out a "Scottish" banknote, it's made of paper (not even plastic). We then proceed to give free advertising to a bank owned by a bunch of Aussies, or alternatively, one of two banks that've gone down the tube.
But at least we're shareholders of both the latter - roll on the AGM!
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#73 - excellent! LOL!
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#72 & #73 oldnat
Welcome back after your fun week-end. LOL re the flag but it's certainly an appropriate symbol for NuLab's UK, while the Tories on the NR threads continue to call them socialists and lefties.
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Oldnat, he could'nt possibly be an MP !
Surely they have to have a modicum of diplomacy to take the job?
After all they are not allowed to call each other liars in the House ,even though its painfully obvious that there are those who lie to the house, round the house, through the house and could start a row in an empty one!
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72. At 00:33am on 18 Oct 2008, oldnat wrote:
suggests that he has tipped over the edge of rational thought.
-----------------------------------------------------
oldnat, your not suggesting that he's gordon himself.
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74. At 00:41am on 18 Oct 2008, bluelaw wrote:
Chris Hoy has been training for thirty years. The SNP has been in govt 18 months. How can they be blamed for Scotland not having enough decent training facilities? The Union dividend yet again I suppose...
I wasn't blaming the SNP for anything. I was trying to point out that Alex Salmond had been saying that Chris Hoy is an example as to why Scotland should have their own Olympic team, without checking his facts first.
It is a danger for all politicians: they make a statement only for it to come back and bite them on the backside. Chris Hoy himself stated he did not want to be used as a political pawn.
Instead of Alex Salmond constantly saying " I want", he should show what he can achieve with current resources, then present a case for additional ones. Remember that Wales and Northern Ireland also want additional funding.
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reluctant ex-pat
negative negative negative nancy. all the time it's shoot down everyone elses passion and belief in themselves and others with narky comments and "facts and figures" which no matter what you pull out the hat there are always counter figures. C3PO and R2D2 went in opposite directions but ended up in the same place, just give it a go pal, just lets do it on our own. If you think it's gonna be so bad, move, thats your right, if you really think that everything is gonna be so terrible when we run our own affairs then go somewhere else or stay and tough it out like the rest of us.
The lasting thing that remains is that people realise that now if we were independent the country woundn't fall into the sea, we wouldn't all perish and hey we actually might be quite good at running a country. Your negative pessimistic attitude to independence is incredible. your negative and pessimistic attitude to your fellow men and women is even worse.
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could i also add that i hope that was the first time star wars was mentioned in a post regarding independence
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Good to see so many New posters on this forum, who believe in their own peoples right to run their own Nation.
Lets not forget that we are all Patriots who are pro Scottish, not Anti English People or our Welsh Cousins.
It gets a bit tedious listening to the bitter unionists, but on the whole they serve our goals, with the negative rantings. Anything New Labour that comes up is usually associated by bitter little people, who hate.
We need to argue our case without hatred or anger, it doesnt serve us well to become as bitter as those who support a New Labour Political Party more than their own kind.
Dont forget many of these types do what they do, so they will be seen by Brown as a potential little piggy with his nose in the Westmonster Trough.
We fight for our Nation, because we want a better future for every Scot. We want our Constitution back, and the fundamental rights that it gives, we the people of Scotland.
Someone mentioned earlier on that Scotland and Alex and John Swinney wouldnt have been able to save our banks. What utter tosh. Our Banks have an extensive range of shareholders.
We needed to be able to guarantee accounts. Brown has not put one penny upfront to fund the bank.
If he does it will be from a printing press, not from some empty Bank of England Safe.
If Scotland was Independant right at this moment we as a country would have quite easily funded the purchase of outstanding sub prime loans.
The idea that sub prime loans are so hard to fund, is absolute garbage.
Each bank should be renegiating every sub prime loan with those that cant pay.
If the loans were extended to those people the bank believes are genuinely commited to owning their own home by say ten years, or any other negotiated time frame, it would reduce monthly payments and give the banks the value of the loan. Lets not forget that anyone who is thrown out has to rent a home. So lets use money paid in rent with reduced monthly payment terms. Yes some will have to work harder, but at least they are getting something back for it and the subprime loan is financed. This means not one brass ring has to be spent in repossions, no houses lying empty needing maintanance, no court/legal costs and no one being bankrupt.
Lets not forget interest rates are going to lower, because of Browns Recession. Wages will rise over the ten years, and existing mortgages will be a lower percentage of take home pay.
Brown and GBplc are broke. Scotland has an existing economy of 56 billion a year, and the new oil fields around the Shetlands and the Western Isles will be online. We share new fields out into the Northern Atlantic with Ireland and Iceland. We will also be investing in our transport systems, and setting Corporate Tax levels that will bring investment from business's from overseas and the existing London Finance Community.
The Oil companies who are at present located in London will need to relocate to Scotland if they want to participate in our Oil. All the Whiskey Industry would be in the exact same position. If you make Whiskey you must have head office in Scotland and pay Scottish Taxes. Our Farming production has been run down because of the EU regulations. We need to maximise our production of all agricultural, for Scottish Markets and Export. Our Fishing Grounds must be 100% controlled by and fished by Scotland. If the EU want fish, pay for it.
The Fishing grounds are estimated to be worth 10 billion per annum. From now on it will be Scottish money.
Unionists who go on about what did Alex do about the Brown Recession, need to be put straight. Right now Scotland has NO POWER to run its own commercial interests. Our councils can raise outside finance, but Brown wont let the Scottish Government raise one penny.
Scotland must be run by the Scottish Nation. Scottish Sovereign Power is the People. Not the Government, Not a Monarch, Not some rich landowner.
Scots for Scots.
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Well said jediirnbru at #84 and excellent post from scottishrepublic at #86.
It's posts, and attitudes, just like this that keep politics interesting - and render something which should always be on a positive political horizon - hope to better the country.
[Applaud]
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Brian
I look to a Scotland where all its peoples support INDEPENDENCE. The Labour supporters are fair fizzing with visceral hatred of the SNP as you say but quietly listening to Labour acquaintances I sadly note the reason does not lie up in the moral high ground but lies with their fear of loss of power, influence and bluntly "money". It makes Labour and Brown very ordinary and mean. The SNP however are "trapped" by definition into always putting the interests of Scotland first.
Scotland for all the peoples of Scotland.
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'Then we get the "give us a billion pounds NOW" approach. It's all wrong. Or it may be a deliberate ploy to annoy the English and gain sympathy from Scotland.'
The Scottish government are well within their rights to ask the UK government to return monies which are owed to Scotland. Give or take a few million, nobody can argue that this money is being withheld by the treasury.
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Re the Arc of Prosperity - If you get the opportunity, please, please listen to this mornings Newsweek Scotland on BBC Radio Scotland for the brilliant contribution from Irish economist Marc Coleman (refuting the allegations from Jim Murphy describing Ireland as part of the Arc of Insovency on an Irish radio programme) . When pursued over damaging allegation, it is to be noted that the slippery Mr Murphy refused to explain himself when given the opportunity saying he was too busy in his constituency.
Then there was Mr Bergman in Iceland who was explaining the hurt and anger and not least the unnecessary damage to Iceland by the the actions of the Brown and Darling who used terrorist legislation to bring down the wrong bank. Here's the link to the programme :
Ther programme is on the BBc iplayer for the next 7 days:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00f11px
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The air heads on this blog, forget, that it was the labour party that introduced devolution into Scotland.
The snp first opposed the idea of a devolved parliament.
Scotland under the union, has flourished, the unionist tag is the bile that needs lanced.
Is it not just abit thin to suggest that Scotland should seek Independence from the union, then join the EU,what do the nats think thay can gain from the EU under an Independent situation?
The people of Scotland have the right to know exactly what an Independent Scotland
has to offer them, so far, ever issue raised by the nats has been rubbished as stupid economics.
The zealous fever raised by the arch-nats, will only open wounds of divisions.
Its already very clear that the nats have caused a great deal of confusion and devisions in Scotland.
The nats are a new adim..... they are not certain in anything they do, this is resulting is a loss of confindence amongst the business sector in Scotland.
Scotland identity has never been in doubt, however under the nats, Scotlands future is very much in doubt.
You simply cant base the whole economics of a country on a very uncertain oil price.
Scotland is vibrant in schools hospitals, universities and safe in security.
The nats simply dont have a programme to make Scotland better, its just all about a romantic idea that died some 300 years ago.
A progressive Scotland, is something the nats can never offer the people of Scotland.......tell the truth.....CON-NATS.
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Derek min .... 'You simply cant base the whole economics of a country on a very uncertain oil price.' do you think the price of oil is gonna go down to a tenner a barrel ... i doubt it very much. OPEC will squeeze the price back up once the world financial crisis has sorted itself out. That plus the fact that they are finding more oil all the time with better technology means that we can depend on oil in the meantime,but the SNP are committed to green power too which is the way to go in the future.
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86. At 10:35am on 18 Oct 2008, scottishrepublic wrote:
Good to see so many New posters on this forum, who believe in their own peoples right to run their own Nation.
Lets not forget that we are all Patriots who are pro Scottish, not Anti English People or our Welsh Cousins.
It gets a bit tedious listening to the bitter unionists...
We need to argue our case without hatred or anger, it doesnt serve us well to become as bitter as those who support a New Labour Political Party more than their own kind.
Dont forget many of these types do what they do, so they will be seen by Brown as a potential little piggy with his nose in the Westmonster Trough.
We fight for our Nation, because we want a better future for every Scot. We want our Constitution back, and the fundamental rights that it gives, we the people of Scotland.
Someone mentioned earlier on that Scotland and Alex and John Swinney wouldnt have been able to save our banks. What utter tosh. Our Banks have an extensive range of shareholders.
If he does it will be from a printing press, not from some empty Bank of England Safe.
If Scotland was Independant right at this moment we as a country would have quite easily funded the purchase of outstanding sub prime loans.
Our Fishing Grounds must be 100% controlled by and fished by Scotland. If the EU want fish, pay for it.
The Fishing grounds are estimated to be worth 10 billion per annum. From now on it will be Scottish money.
-----
First, learn to spell independence correctly.
Banks have shareholders - correct. But that means to have shares they must be within a stock exchange system, which means they are vulnerable to attack. The Bank of England is supporting other banks - the Bank of Scotland isn't exactly in a position to do so. And I don't recall Scotland having gold reserves.
Argue without hatred etc - your post is like uber-nationalists and uber-unionists who will not sit down and accept realities. No one side is correct, we need an agreement: there is no fully independent or unionist utopia.
Fishing grounds 100% owned by Scotland? What you are implying is that we leave the EU in order to do so. Disaster. And what will we police the fishing grounds with?
You appear to want a complete divorce from the UK and Europe. Much as I dislike EU and certain aspects of the current UK constitution, going completely alone at this moment in time is folly. There would be a huge financial and political cost to do so. it is not something we can just switch over to overnight.
I want Scotland to be more in control, but in a realistic fashion.
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Rabbie,
Green power is fine, however two years into this admin, there is no sign of progress in that area?
Rabbie, Reluctant-Expat speaks the truth on the oil situation, look at the posts and understand my friend, that a nation cant survive on oil alone.
Rabbie there is not a conspiracy to hold Scotland back under the union, Rabbie you live in a very modern country, if you compare it with others, we are doing fine.
Rabbie green power is a new way of delivering the needs of energy to its
people,its a young process thats needs action now, in the mean time Scotland does
need nuclear power to keep the lights on, that is not a favourable position Rabbie, its simply the truth.
Rabbie you cant build the hopes and aspirations of the people with an uncertain and discredited economic back ground.
You wont build a better nation, with an Independent outlook,in todays world you have to be international, not national in your outlook.
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All the Unionists have is negativity and fear. They can't allude to the great success of union because there is none. We are shored up just enough so as not to embarrass Westminster and all the instruments of state that we pay for are used against us in the most arrogant and dismissive of ways to ensure we comply. Westminster doesn't give a damn about Scotland beyond squeezing its oil or using it to maintain its Imperial delusions. Scotland can do so much better than this. We don't have to endure this nonsense much longer. If we just push ourselves a little then we'll realise that independence is normality and nothing to be frightened of.
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Re #91 derekbarker
Nice start to your comment, nothing like an insult to start a reasoned argument.
Lets have a look at your points:
The SNP opposed to idea of devolution ??. Because they advocated independence and saw devolution for what it was, the illusion of control while all the major decisions (and the veto) remained with Westminster
Scotland has flourished under the union ?? yet not as much as the SE of England curiously. One point ot note is that Scotland?s population is struggling to remain stagnant which hinders our ability to grow.
The difference between the union and membership of the EU is that each country retains its own sovereignty within the EU and as has been said before, it?s not a suicide pact, unlike the union
The people of Scotland have a right to know what independence offers them ?.. of course it?s easy to rubbish any economic plans for the future, because a) Westminster are loathed to give a real, audited picture of Scotland and it?s position within the UK economy and b) any view of an economic future can be rubbished simply because it?s a view of what may happen in the future ? have a look at what the tories are proposing for the future of the UK, fuzzy or what?
Nats will open wounds ?.. yet as a nationalist (as opposed to an SNP supported), I work with people in England and have many English friends, none of whom feel I am creating a divide between England and Scotland
The loss of confidence in the business sector ?? and this statement is based upon what? I think you will find that the looming recession is what is harming business confidence
Scotland?s identity is not in doubt ??.. unless you actually spend time with people in other countries (other than England !) were the perception is often that we are little more than a county within England, and that Great Britain / United Kingdom are interchangeable with England
The whole of Scotland economy is based on Oil ??. If you don?t count all the other industries such as whisky, tourism, finance, electronics, sustainable energy etc.
The Nats don?t have the programme ??.. I assume you mean the SNP as opposed to nationalists. The key here is that decisions taken in Westminster are primarily taken for the benefit of the majority (England), and are only correct for Scotland when we happen to coincide with what is best for England. The main point of having an independent government in Scotland is that the decisions taken are those that are best for Scotland
Sorry to be so long-winded, but it?s time that someone pulled you up on your assumptions
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#96
googlehoo
What makes you think that an Independent Scotland, by reason of home rule, means automatic betterment,when so much of the snp's economic plans have been discredited.
At the moment under the union Britain retains its opt out position within the EU.
What would you consider Scotlands position to be in the EU in terms of opt outs? or are you suggesting we go the full hog with the entire EU treaty (sovereignty or decision making?)I dont think that your position is clear on that?
Not only are there devisions with the rest of the UK, but there are also religious divisions
within Scotland, I think you should be serious about that position.
Scotland, like many other places doesn't have an monopoly on industries, all the industries you relate to are funded by foreign investment.
If as you say that westminster makes in favour of England, then why is Scotland so rich in education, health care and general law?
I'm not making assumptions....just telling it as it is...its called the truth.
If you want Scotland to be an Independent state.....then make the case for the people
through a cast iron guarantee, so far the snp's economic plan is in tatters.
Pull up your leader...ask him..to give you the reasons to defend the undefendable.
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It is very disappointing to see the negative posting on Ireland?s economy; these are after all our friends and allies in the EU. Add the schadenfreude that after years of 6-8%pA growth they are finally in recession and the comments becomes vile and distasteful.
As I have posted before it is an easy and patronising piece of nonsense that their prosperity is all down to EU subsidies received since they joined.
Some (real) facts may help:
Ireland joined the EU in 1973 with Denmark and the UK, 35 years ago.
Up to last year they had received a net total of around 40 Billion Euros. At current exchange rates that is about 32Billion pounds sterling, but at average exchange rates over the period it is closer to 28 Billion sterling, i.e. they got about £800 Million on average a year.
Naturally the amount and the % to GDP varied in this 35 year period, it is now around 1% of Irish GDP, in 2000 it was just lest than 2%. And at its highest it reach almost 6%, though this was back in the late 70's.
The reason for this modest support was, of course, because their economy was starting from a low base. As they grew their economy the net amount has shrunk, and they will shortly become a net contributor.
It is interesting to compare the above experience of Ireland as a sovereign state in a loose Union like the EU, and their parlous state in what was often a repressive Union with Great Britain.
To put these amounts into context, they are dwarfed by the subsidies Scotland has been making per annum over the same period from the taxation on her natural resources - to the greater good of the UK Treasury.
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Re #97
Under independence, Scotland would be better of because the decisions on domestic investment, attracting foreign investment, population, foreign policy, and many other areas would be taken with Scotland's interest at heart. At the moment, we have to plead with Westminster to ask for what we see as priorities.
Let me be clear that this is the key to independence. It's all about self-determination as it has been for all nations who have sought independence.
opt-out positions within the EU are largely red herrings. while it is something we would want to negotiate, no country within the EU will accept any edict which does significant harm to their national interest - just look at how often France have ignored EU directives.
The EU is a union of sovereign countries who come together for mutual benefit, not a suicide pact
As for religious divisions, where did that come from (certainly not your original post). I fail to see the point of this - do you think we vote on religious lines in Scotland ???
As for Scotland's economy, I'm not sure what your point is - we have industries and we have foreign investment as do all nations. How is this in any way negative for Scotland? we are in the same position as all nations in the west
Here is a question for you and all the other unionists - how do you think England would feel if the EU controlled the UK budget, providing only the equivalent for the UK of the items currently given to Scotland to control under the terms of the devolution and only allowed the same level of decision making ( no decisions on interest rates, foreign policy, the military, no ability to raise money on the money markets, no decisions on immigration, only a 3% tax variation based upon a tax rate the EU set etc.). Do you think that this would be acceptable to the people of England?
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Still sitting neutral on the independence question, I think we should look at how many jobs in Scotland are dependent on the current status of the UK.
A few I know, probably more than this, feel free to add:
DFID
Student Loans Company
HMRC
DVLA
Benefits and Pensions
Job Centres
NHS
Network Rail
BBC
MoD, including military bases
Some of these would remain in form but albeit on a smaller scale.
Tens of thousands of jobs are reliant on the UK as it stands. Defence in particular also provides to the local economies near military bases.
Many people in these offices have transferrable skills, but if there are no opportunities in Scotland then they will leave; a "brain drain". It's great for the SNP to say "oh we would get inward investment and training", but that's no use if you have a mortgage to pay and the only opportunities are in a supermarket.
Before people criticise the list, go and investigate precisely how many people are employed in each sector. These are not "non-jobs" you read about. Take them away and you also affect the general economy. In addition, the unions have a strong presence, so you also run the risk of industrial action if we have a situation where there are compulsory redundancies.
We have yet to hear precise plans from the SNP on how they would deal with this. If Scotland was independent then why would the UK Government keep these jobs in Scotland? Better to provide for their own economy first.
These are the issues that need addressing.
#97 derekbarker is absolutely correct when he says that the people of Scotland need a cast iron guarantee. Once you go independent, and if it goes all wrong you are stuck with it.
All this talk about "oh let's be brave" is mince. It's as about convincing as Gordon Brown talking about a stable economy.
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#99
So you do understand devolution a bit?
Why are you so negative about England
and the UK in general, your side stepping the issue of a better Scotland under Independence.
I know it difficult for you to give a position on the EU, considering that your party, the snp are in a pickle on this issue to.
I thought you might have just played the referendum card on the EU.(SINGLE CURRENCY AND ALL)
So you also agree the Scotland can only collect tax from its various industries?
Religious Scotland has been with us for a very long time, yes,
some political groups do campaign on
religious issues only.
Your not making the case that an Independent Scotland, can and will deliver better schools, hospitals, homes, jobs, transport......and so on.
I think you should look into the deep devision in belgium, the so called heart of the EU.
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#90 raisethegame
Thanks for the tip re Newsweek Scotland. I just listened to it on the iPlayer and it was excellent. Coleman was indeed clear and cogent - quite the opposite of the absent Murphy's jibes via the media. You'd have thought Murphy would have managed a better excuse - surprising he has no time for the good people of Glenrothes today.
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Re #100
It's certainly an interesting list.
Firstly I believe that all the 'public sector' jobs that support Scotland would still exist in an independent Scotland. The NHS is separate in Scotland, so no difference there then, and HMRC would still be required for tax, same with job centres, rail etc. etc.
Are you proposing that we would not have these services in Scotland if we were independent?
If you are proposing that the jobs in Scotland support England's public sector requirements, then you are way off the mark.
As for the cast iron guarantee - where is the cast iron guarantee from Westminster in the future of Scotland - all the promises that there will be no return to boom and bust look pretty hollow now. Where were the guarantees in all that and what are we being guaranteed now? As far as I can see the only guarantee now is that they will spend as much of the tax-payers money as is required to fix the mess they presided over.
You use this need for a gurantee like a drowning man uses a life belt, clutching at it in the hope it will save you. There are no guarantees in politics, only promises which may or may not be delivered.
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Tens of thousands of jobs aren't not dependent on the UK. Many of these jobs wouls still be needed as an independent and moreso Scotland wouldn't be running after the scraps thrown by Westminster as the case of the BBC underspend in Scotland (versus how much Scotland contributes to the national license fee) exemplifies. The nebulousness of the MOD and Defence contracts are another case in point in this regard as well as Civil service ventures in general.
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#103
"There are no guarantees in politics, only promises which may or may not be delivered"
Hmmmm......I think you make your own case
against the uncertain future under the snp.
Of course there would be thousands of jobs lost, if Scotland went Independent from the UK.
How would an Independent Scotland fund all the jobs of an Independent state?
No "GUARANTEES" only a state of certain failure.
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Re #101
This is getting boring - every time I deal with one of your points, you want to put up a different one.
Religion is a best a minor issue in Scottish politics. I'd be happy to hear of which major Scottish political party campaigns on religious issues only. Please enlighten me
As for tax, I struggle to see what your point is - we would collect tax in exactly the same way as it is currently collected for the UK, but for Scotland only - unless you have a different idea ?
I also struggle to see your point on education, housing etc. Surely the main point of independence is that the Scottish electorate can decide on their priority and how to spend pubic money by voting for the Scottish party which is aligned with their beliefs. You make the classic mistake of thinking that in an independent Scotland there would be only one party (the SNP?) whereas I would expect that true Scottish socialist / conservative / liberal / green parties (not just puppets for Westminster parties) would be formed and an election to provide a Scottish parliament would be held. We would then be the same as any other western democracy.
I see we are off to Belgium now .... what's the matter, tired of abusing Ireland and Norway, so you thought you would wander over to Belgium ..... of course we are exactly like Belgium (in your mind perhaps), you'll be comparing us to Zimbabwe next
Lastly, please see my question at the bottom of posting #99 - what's your answer ?
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I see Salmond refusing to tell the truth yet again: "Ireland took early action to guarantee its bank deposits, stabilise the banking sector. Yes it's going into recession, but it's going in in a much better, prosperous basis than the UK."
Wrong, Salmond. Ireland is already in recession, still the only country in Europe to be so. And that prosperity is, as everyone else seems to know, due to billions in EU aid (part funded by the UK) that the country has been receiving for the past 40 years and will still receive until 2012.
The UK also took action to protect deposits before Ireland and not one investor/saver has lost a single penny from a single UK bank.
Ms Sturgeon is also telling more porkies:
"They see billions of pounds of taxpayers' money being spent to bail out the excesses of Wall Street and the City of London and they ask, rightly, 'What about us? What will be done to help our town, our street, our family?' The answer to that question so far from London Labour is: nothing."
Wrong, Sturgeon. They are controlling the UK-wise damage being done by this global banking crisis. I'll just check the world's headlines......yep, again everyone else seems to know that Brown is taking widely-supported measures that will do something that will obviously help the entire UK economy.
If the case for independence is so strong, why do the SNP and the nats lie so much?
Then there was the £9bn lie by Salmond in 2006 (which Brownedov wonderfully tried to explain away as both another anti-nationalist conspiracy and different accounting methods).
Then there was the £3.5bn lie by Salmond in 2008 when he discounted that amount of public spending from his announcements of the latest GERS accounts.
Is there any reason why anyone should believe anything the SNP or their obedient servants say?
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#106
See my answer to your question #99 at the top of my #101
Yes it is becoming boring, you answer nothing and give nothing in re-turn.
I could shoot holes in your post all day long
you have hide yourself under the banner of
absolute denial...............next please.
Europe...indeed....pahaa
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#106 googlehoo
We all get sucked in to it from time to time but there really isn't much joy to be had from debating with derekbarker, or Reluctant-Expat for that matter.
Neither seems capable of putting any positive points for their side and so both resort to accusations of untruths and imagined conspiracies. For example, re #107 see my postings on the previous thread and judge for yourself.
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103. At 2:53pm on 18 Oct 2008, googlehoo wrote:
Re #100
It's certainly an interesting list.
If you are proposing that the jobs in Scotland support England's public sector requirements, then you are way off the mark.
-----------
Student Loans Company, DFID and HMRC all support England's requirements. As does Defence.
Defence is the bogeyman here. Where does the SNP stand? We already know that Faslane would be shut. What about the other bases? MoD also has a large office in Glasgow, employing many civilians.
Rail services obviously would remain, but Network Rail is owned by the UK Government, so who takes responsibility in Scotland?
DVLA - yes we would have our own. But that means new legislation, new computer systems, new documentation. That means a lot of expense for those in the motor trade.
I know I'm coming across as picky, but all we are getting at the moment are high level issues, which while important are masking other equally important areas.
BY the way, any further news on the Mary Queen of Scots saga?
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#107 Reluctant-Expat
"(which Brownedov wonderfully tried to explain away as both another anti-nationalist conspiracy and different accounting methods)"
Thank you for your praise, but your time would better spent following your own recent advice to Salmond that: "Maybe he can use the meantime to brush up on his economics. He's clearly not as sharp on the matter as he thought."
Until you understand the differences between estimates, statistics, published accounts and detailed accounts as well as the functions that an external auditor needs to apply to satisfy him or herself that published accounts are true and fair, your comparisons of apples with pears will not ring true.
Lacking those skills, to categorise as lies differences which you fail to understand opens you to ridicule.
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Re #110
I have to say that while I do not have exact figures I believe the differences between public sector jobs in Scotland just now and in the future would be small. I don't see any significant difference betwene the current facilities and those in an independent Scotland
There are a raft of public sector jobs in England that support Scotland and these would have to be created in an independent Scotland, so I think it would be swings and round-abouts
The exact make-up of the public sector in an independent Scotland would be something to be part of a much larger piece of work to setup alll the facilities of an independent country.
Just a quick point for you and other unionists, as I have previously said, I am not an Alex Salmond apologist, I am in favour of independence, but believe that Scotland have more to offer in the political arena that just the SNP. As I mentioned earlier, I would look for a full range of political parties in an independent Scotland to allow us to have a vibrant democracy.
As for Mary Queen of Scots, as far as I know, she's still dead .... :-)
.
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Re: 108
I must be going blind, I don't see any answer to my #99 on your #101 - I think it must be wishful thinking ...
Still waiting on the party that campaign on religion only ....
If your shooting me down, you must be firing blanks .....
Re #109 Brownedov
I know you are right, but it's like driving past an accident, it's really difficult not to look, even though you hate yourself for doing it afterwards
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Good to see people quoting the GERS report, which whilst still well short of perfect is a reasonable starting point.
It has to be remembered that it was started by Sec of State Scotland Lang back in the Tory years as an attempt to undermine the independence argument.
Prepared as it is by civil servants it gave the appearance of independence that the Government needed. However, as it was challenged over the years by genuine independents, the allocation errors and inappropriate assumptions that have come out have largely favoured Scotland; the latest two, last year and this, being £800M and £1000M in Scotland?s favour.
Various points came out of the last GERS the principal one being (as clearly shown in the conclusion).
The First point:
If oil revenue were allocated on a geographic basis (as it would be if we were independent) Scotland would have had a budget SURPLUS of £0.8Billion in 06/07. This when the UK had a budget DEFICIT of over £30Billion. Hence the obvious conclusion to anyone other than a rabid Unionist that Scotland is subsidising the UK. To be in the same position as the UK the report should have shown a deficit of £2.7Billions (9% of the UK), so we were better of by £3.5Billion. (2.7Billions and 0,8Billion)
For the avoidance of doubt I quote the relevant passage below:
?In 2006-07, the estimated current budget balance for the public sector in Scotland was a deficit of £6.7 billion (6.4 per cent of GDP) excluding North Sea revenue, a deficit of £6.0 billion (5.5 per cent of GDP) including a per capita share of North Sea revenue or a surplus of £0.8 billion (0.7 per cent of GDP) including an estimated geographical share of North Sea revenue.?
When 07/08 is published it will show a surplus of at least £4-5Billions, as Grant Thornton the Accountants reported a few months ago. Taking the subsidy to the UK to about 7-8 Billions in that year.
The Second point:
That there are allowances in it where Scotland pays for the services provided for it, predominantly in London, on reserved areas e.g. contributions to the MOD HQ op, Trade, Foreign, and Westminster etc.
It is very unlikely, if Scotland were independent, that we would continue to fund our share of these operations in London. The work would be done in Scotland, and the taxes these civil servants pay would be paid into a Scottish Exchequer i.e. more jobs not less and more taxation income not less.
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#110 Neil_Small147
I think you're wanting a solution here where no great problem exists, though some discussions with Slovakia and perhaps Slovenia regarding their experiences would no doubt be worthwhile nearer the time.
I am no nationalist but believe it may come to independence if a confederal solution cannot be reached, but the solutions would mostly be straightforward in either event if goodwill exists.
All of the functions you list will need to be performed in a Scotland with home rule, but all of the existing computer systems already exist and have been paid for by Scottish taxpayers as much as any others. Spllitting the Scottish data from the remainder of the UK would be a simple job taking no more than a few weeks for a comptetent IT specialist of which I grant that the governments have few. The codes to do it are already in place with Post codes and DVLA Area codes.
Ireland retained the UK vehicle registration model for many years without headache, for example.
Surely Railtrack would be split territorially, as would physical buildings and installations or are you suggesting that as part of the "divorce" settlement Scotland should be awarded "parcels" of track in, say, Hertfordshire while London retains lines around Aberdeen?
That said, allocating the Navy would be more contentious, especially in the event of London wanting to retain Trident for fear of losing their seat on the UNSC, but even that problem was solved without giving rise to much rancour by Russia as the inheritor of the USSR seat. Perhaps London should have a quiet chat on that topic with Moscow.
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#109
Brownedov, I'm sure that you would agree with the methods of debating.
I'm not sure why you consider anyone who offers a different position from your own, is not worthy of debate?
I dont think you can give a credible answer to RE's GERS reports.
You cant win the vote just by bullying, you have got to offer credible evidence, not hyper bulletins straight off the nats press office.
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#113 googlehoo
"you hate yourself for doing it afterwards"
I fear I must be a masochist. I hate myself for doing it before I do it.
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#113
Blind....Hmmm...there you go!
Are you telling me, that there haven't been parties that have campaigned against the likes of abortion, christian movements and even capital punishment from a religious prespective?
I thought you did understand devolution abit....
Well.....are you the first Independent tory, to declare your support for the nationalist?
I'm sure Brownedov and co will welcome you with all their yellow flag waving nonsense
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#114 impeachblair
Interesting, and probably close to the truth, but the sad fact is that we'll probably never know for sure.
I somehow can't see any UK government opening up HM Treasury's "books" to proper detailed scrutiny by a Holyrood one unless they were majority governments of the same party. So if independence happens, it will only the future that can be accurately measured and not the past.
NuLab have a well-deserved reputation for spin, but all governing parties do it to some extent, so even after independence you can lay money on both Holyrood and London wanting to show their "own" stats in the best possible light.
But as I've said before, it's not really about money at all but self-determination.
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115. At 5:08pm on 18 Oct 2008, Brownedov wrote:
#110 Neil_Small147
I am no nationalist but believe it may come to independence if a confederal solution cannot be reached, but the solutions would mostly be straightforward in either event if goodwill exists.
Good point for the nats here. Why won't they try the federalist approach? You retain your main legislative powers but have the advantage of a "safety net" of sorts. It would also solve the issue of defence.
It might also placate the uber-unionists as well.
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#116 & #118 derekbarker
"I dont think you can give a credible answer to RE's GERS reports."
I hadn't realised that R-E had written them. Perhaps that's why he's so defensive about them.
Seriously though, I suggest you read my #115 & #119 before you label anything I say as coming from "the nats press office".
I'm not prepared to debate R-E's allegations of untruths with you while you provide no reasoned arguments against my #69, #109 or #111 on this thread.
In fact, I'm not prepare to debate anything this evening as I have another commitment. TTFN
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#94 Derek .... your post is written in such a manner that it implys im naieve and dont read other posts. I vote SNP because i was sick of the other partys. I also read Private Eye which altho they sometimes have to go to court are usually genuine with what they report. From this i know that Labour are just as bad as the Tories and cant be trusted anymore to hold onto the money.
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The SNP just do not get it - the cost to an independent Scotland of saving RBS and HBOS (as they are HQed here) would be crippling (Icelandic style) as these companies are both so large outside of Scotland.
As for Clark Kent I am sure he is too sensible to vote SNP (more likely a Lib-Dem)?!
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#120 Neil_Small147
Good question, and I really don't see why those in favour of home rule (LibDems & SNP) don't make more of what they have in common rather than worrying too much about an ultimate "final solution" which may never happen if they're divided over the short term, That said, the LibDems had a golden chance to change their tactics over their leadership election but nothing I've seen so far suggests they have.
Really off out now, so TTFN
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#121
All your inaccurate assumption point to the fact, that all capital expenditure is logged by law.
Britains borrowing deficit was higher under the last tory government, that and the fact the relatively low inflation, compared to the last tory government, will allow PM Brown to borrow more in these difficult times, to ensure the continued record levels of investment into the public sector.
HM Treasury, whether you want to estimate it or draw on statistics, is not hidden from the public and is readily available to all tax paying members.
I dont hear you complaining about the 30Bn Scotland budget.
Why are you so concerned about the so called oil revenue,do you seriously believe that the Treasury is hiding the true recovery costs from the public?
I would suggest that RE has good cause to lable the quote conspricay goon, to the very nervous light hearted nats.
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Rabbie, far be it for me to be condecending
I merely give you the facts on a plate.
Take time and digest, you might like it, and decide to give up on the comic books and elevate to reality..
Scurry...my friend ..hurry.
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#123 uk_abz_scot
You make the usual mistake of assuming that present conditions would exist if the past had been different.
As many posters have pointed out, no one (from either side of the argument) can make definitive statements as to what the situation would have been. Scotland could have been in any or none of the situations that Norway, Iceland, Ireland, Denmark etc find themselves in.
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'nervouse light hearted nats' ...whoever do you mean !
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Re #118
I'm telling you nothing of the sort - your contention was, and I quote 'some political groups do campaign on religious issues only' - so, please name them
and just to help a poor blind old man, please re-quote your answer to my question at the end of post #99. Just in case it has sliped you mind, here it is again:
how do you think England would feel if the EU controlled the UK budget, providing only the equivalent for the UK of the items currently given to Scotland to control under the terms of the devolution and only allowed the same level of decision making ( no decisions on interest rates, foreign policy, the military, no ability to raise money on the money markets, no decisions on immigration, only a 3% tax variation based upon a tax rate the EU set etc.). Do you think that this would be acceptable to the people of England?
I'll even let you away with all the other rubbish you have come out with if you can answer these two ...
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#128 rabbie
The only reference I can find to "nervouse" is in the Urban Dictionary.
It certainly sounds as if it could be considered "light hearted", but I doubt that any political stance has a monopoly on it!
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#130 I like the sound of a 'nervouse game' lol
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#129
I believe I have answered your questions several times.
I think it would help if you were more of a realist and accepted the said devolved situation, not a make up EU situation?
Although the embryo debate in westminster is still on going and I'm sure that you do understand that the Scottish parliament often opens for debate with a leading religious spoke person, there are many groups that have stood in political contests under the banner of religious means, again I say your trying to hard to lead the horse to water and also make the horse drink the water.
Maybe you should choose your wording more carefully in future.
Or is your glass always half empty........
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Whats a 'conspricay goon' re #125
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Re #132
Ha, ha, ha
thanks for playing ....
Brownedov is right, you have nothing but bluster, spin and insults.
I think I'll along to the pub and have some real discussions with real people
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#133
Spike Milligan......quite a funny man.
A comedy of conspricay....my ....weak....friend
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#134
Take care! are you taking the horse with you? trot on.
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I see Gordon is saying that the oil companies should cut prices to help out consumers .... thats a bit rich when not only does the government take a huge chunk in tax but charge us road tax too. I think its time road tax was abolished and the money taken off petrol/deisel etc. This would help people out immensely as you'd only be paying for when you use the car and not on the fact you have a car. Not everybody has access to 'expensive' public transport.
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Looks like its me and thee Derek but since im at work and cant go to the pub will have to go work .... so best you off to Nick Robinsons blog for a bit .... cya :o)}
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#133 rabbie
In my earnest search for truth and understanding, I found the following question on a US website -
"does it take two to be charged with a conspricacy charge in florida."
Do you think that derek was wondering whether he'd be allowed to play the nervouse game while visiting Orlando?
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#127 oldnat
The SNP rebuttal machine is getting amazing - now as soon as anybody makes a point exposing the SNP you start wheeling out "alternative history".
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Id better point out that 'nervouse' was my spelling mistake. Derek got that one correct. I think the poor guy does need a holiday tho perhaps Belguim !!!
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Ooops, I have my vowels in the wrong place
"CONSPIRACY" I made a right i and a of it.
Silly me!
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Brian,
I have a couple of old hearing aids you could borrow,
what you misheard was" Brown's a daft ..........
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uk_abz_scot from clicking on your name i can deduce that you dislike the SNP and also the Tories which i think means your a NuLabour supporter. Is there any unionists who are Tory supporters out there or have they just given up on Scotland. I can see Brians blog is gonna have a lot of heated debates/name calling in the next couple of weeks leading up to GlenRothes. Also uk_abz_scot you must be a Dads Army fan going by the couple of references you've had.... should your name not correctly have been abz_scot_uk . cheers
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Rabbie...Belguim...where is that or did you mean Belgium.
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65. Planejock
"I admit I've not done any research on this, it's just my impression, that's all. I'd be happy if you could perhaps enlighten the matter with a few examples."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_England
As you are obviously a committed unionist under any circumstance I think you could be better employed doing your own research rather than expecting others to comply with your wishes to satisfy your assumptions and scaremongering.
Passing thought as the Glenrothes by-election is to elect a MP for Westminster why are all the unionist targeting the SNP's actions at Holyrood rather down south.
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#140 uk_abz_scot
I see you've only been posting for a couple of weeks, and probably wasn't reading the blog before then, so I'll forgive you.
"The SNP rebuttal machine"
I'm a member of no political party (though I currently vote SNP). You'll find many independent thinkers on this blog who have political views but don't follow a party line.
"alternative history"
I am, however, a historian and therefore understand what you obviously don't - events are the product of previous decisions, and it is simply asinine to assume that the current circumstances would exist, had different decisions been taken in the past. My posting made it clear that both Unionists and Nationalists who make such claims are mistaken.
A word of advice to a relative newbie - before attacking someone else's post it's wise to actually read it, not just respond on the emotional responses which derive from your own fixed position.
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#141 rabbie
Honest chap! Therefore, apologies to derek.
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For any of you people who's typing is a bit iffy ... i suggest you play QWERTY Warrior 2 lol . Its a simple flash game but heck it not half challenges your typing skills.
I see todays Daily Mail has a piece blaming Labour for the financial difficulties today. By not regulating credit etc we now have lots of people in great financial difficulty. I agree with that and altho not a victim myself i do know people with mortgages and 6 credit cards each.
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I'm glad we have established something quite significant in this forum.
Unionist believe that Scotland would take and make exactly the same decisions as the United Kingdom in terms of political and economic policy.
Nationalists believe that Scotland would have taken a different course.
I'll leave people to wonder as to whether a small country makes the same choices as a large one and then decide who has the right of the argument.
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90. raisethegame
Marc Colman article you'll have to register to get full article.
http://news.scotsman.com/opinion/Ireland-is-still-a-success.4587407.jp
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#145 Derek my fingers have developed the same illness yours sometimes have lol. No i mean Belgium....Belguim sounds too exotic for you to go your hols.
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#146 cynicalHighlander
"Passing thought as the Glenrothes by-election is to elect a MP for Westminster why are all the unionist targeting the SNP's actions at Holyrood rather down south."
Could it be that Labour MPs know better than anyone how little Scottish MPs actually have to do in Westminster that they don't want people to realise how unimportant they are?
I might well vote for such as Lindsay Roy for Holyrood, as his practical experience of Scottish education would be invaluable. However, what on earth is he (or Peter Grant for that matter) going to contribute to UK issues such as defence or foreign relations?
The only useful function that MPs from Scotland can perform is to scrutinise the UK Government policies for issues that are favourable to /against the interests of Scotland.
It's not difficult to guess that a member of the governing party will keep his mouth shut on any such issue.
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#148 Oldnat ... its my nervouse fingers thats making all the mistakes.
As per the current financial situation and a Independent Scotland ... id have thought that should we have been Independent when the oil started to flow more people would not be in the dire straits that is happening now as the money would have stayed here. Mind you thats not to say the banks wouldnt have still been in a lot of trouble. Whats your take on the RBS being bailed out as regards its PFI/PPP liabilities ?
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#153. oldnat
"The only useful function that MPs from Scotland can perform is to scrutinise the UK Government policies for issues that are favourable to /against the interests of Scotland."
Thats the trouble with party politics and the way Westminster is going towards a one party police state by using the fear of terrorism as the tool. Even Public Inquiries are smokescreens as the nuclear 2nd one shows.
"PM 'used crony to fix nuclear power inquiry' "
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/pm-used-crony-to-fix-nuclear-power-inquiry-965464.html
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I have asked this question before but the unionists don't seem to want to answer, but I'll ask it again. What would you unionists do if/when Scotland gets its independence? Would you agree to back your country (Scotland) or would you go and join a foreign country (England)? The union would be dissolved if Scotland becomes independent so your arguments for the union would no longer apply. What would you do?
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#154 rabbie
"its my nervouse fingers thats making all the mistakes."
Shame on you - she deserves your undivided attention!
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Brian,
Saw your interview of the FM today and I have to fully support your opening statement. Please keep up the good work.
PS
Are you R-E trying to keep the arguments flowing in your blog site? If so, it's a good trick.
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There can be only one clear choice for the Glenrothes election, labour of course
Liberals under clegg ( tories by tax)
SNP under Salmond ( tories by thatcherite)
Tories under Cameron (same old)
The nats the libs and the tories all want to cut public services.
Only the labour party are offering healthy public services.
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I don't know why my # 156 post has been referred. I would like to know why. So I've taken the same post from # 386 of 'Taxpayer should take note of bail-out'. Hopefully this will pass as it has already passed. It was the same question but not verbatim.
A question to those unionists; What will you do when Scotland gets its independence? Will you accept the will of the people of Scotland and claim your Scottish passports and do your best for our country? I'd just be interested to know. I am a nat and have always have been but I've also served in the British army and have been proud to do so as, being a member of the UK, I saw this as my duty to my country (which was the UK at that time).
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#160
I think that bridge will be crossed if it ever came to that.
In the mean-time, the snp has recanted on the vast majority of its manifesto,why dont the snp supporters ask why they were lied to, in respect of the false manifesto.
If I take the one issue of smaller class room sizes and couple that with the 2% efficiency savings scheme, then it's clear that the snp never intended to legislate for smaller class room sizes.
Do you believe it is right to campaign on an issue that you would never intend to see through?
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#159 Derek Labour are keen to keep public services so as not to upset the unions. All the other partys realize that spending has to be cut somewhere which i agree with. How many times have i seen council workers standing around a hole in the road for half an hour. Now before you start that i dont seem to be doing much work either ..... well i am its just that nights are quieter than days ... but im supra efficient as well .... how much is the council pension bill gonna cost us ... thats what needs to be asked.
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When will AS come clean about how much of the Scottish executives cash was placed into the failed Icelandic bank?
Watch this space...................................
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cynicalHighlander #146
I'm scaremongering? Eh? Because you're unable to support your own statements?
Seems I've smoked you out doesn't it?
You've really fallen on your sword with that pathetic 'I won't answer because you're a unionist' (which I'm not, but is beside the point) type-remark. For these purposes, it doesn't matter if I'm a unionist, anarchist, terrorist or arsonist. The fact remains, YOU made a statement which you're apparently now unable to support.
I remind you, your 44:
Quote
Scotland has a more varied economy base and if markets fail the impact will be far less severe.
Unquote
And my #65, which STILL awaits YOUR resonse : "To persist, exactly where is the Scottish economy more broadly based than that down south? I wish it was different, but I do think you're wrong on this one."
It's not up to me prove anything - I'm merely asking you to give credence to the statement that YOU made, (but possibly now regret?).
Please, please, don't grass me up to the feared Scaremongering Police. Likewise it's infantile to judge as disloyal those who ask questions.
Other people read these blogs, and we're still awaiting your reasoned reply - not Wikipedia's! Are you going to respond?
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# 163 derekbarker
Will Gordon Brown come clean on the input that he has had in this finacial crises? I doubt it. GB's attitude to fiscal prudence is like the Captain of the Titanic Edward J. Smith's attitude to icebergs: 'Never mind the ice just look how fast we are going'.
Watch this space......................
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Rabbie, why attack the trade unions and the right to a decent pension scheme.
Do you think that we would have a better progressive society if we done away with the public pension scheme?
Those days of one sided victorian abuse are over with Rabbie, A progressive society must ensure good pay and conditions of employment, through out the last thatcher government the only good thing to come out of Europe were some trade union laws
like COSHH and parternal leave.
Oldnat and your fast link will keep you sound their?
Some people would welcome the EU, for its strong employment rights, there aren't many companies that give 90 days notice to shut up shop in Europe.
Rabbie....how long does it take to dig half a whole?
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Just returned after spending mid term in London and trying to catch up with the blogs.
My overall impression of the south east (for which I readily admit I have no proof, no references, no stats, just a hunch) is that there is an awful lot of money invested down there. It would be good if it were more evenly distributed and I include the north of England in that statement.
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derek
As our resident Labour supporter, what's your take on the Immigration Minister's idea of limiting immigration to the UK?
The main parties in Scotland were unanimous in encouraging immigration to Scotland.
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Good god are they breading multiple Rabbie-men up there in the shire.
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# 166 derekbarker
I don't normally agree with your posts but I have to agree with:
'Those days of one sided victorian abuse are over with, A progressive society must ensure good pay and conditions of employment, through out the last thatcher government the only good thing to come out of Europe were some trade union laws
like COSHH and parternal leave.'
and
'Some people would welcome the EU, for its strong employment rights, there aren't many companies that give 90 days notice to shut up shop in Europe.'
I wonder if you would agree that if it wasn't for the EU we would be back in the dark ages as far as worker's rights were concerned. I would go as far as saying that if the employers in the UK had their way we would still be putting children down in the mines. Mind you, the way my grandchildren play up I've often thought that would be a good idea.
#167 snowthistle
I live in London and I can tell you that there is huge poverty down here sitting alongside huge wealth. Doesn't seem fair to me. C'est la vie.
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Lets face it Derek ... most people who work now have to look to having their own pension... in fact my companies scheme is quite good but its gonna cost me money. What my beef is that say your chief excecutive of the council and your caught doing something dodgy .... you get gardening leave 'on full pay' then a nice little golden handshake and you keep the pension .... this after maybe only 4 years on the job ..... now you cant say thats a good policy can you . Early retirement is being used by to much public servants to get away with misdeeds. As for unions ... there are none here where i work .... the general idea that staff will leave and that costs more money in the long term is what negotiates the wage deal here. As it happens we got a good pay rise ...they got stability. So you can keep unions.
Hold on till i find a calculator to work out the last bit.....
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#168
If you increase the population by another 10million, at a time when there is a very serious down-turn, then its only right and proper that you have to look at all the measures that have an effect on the public purse.
Oldnat immigration is cost effective and there is no point in immigration of such high levels when you simply cant afford to look after those said persons correctly.
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154. rabbiehippo
Oil when it first came onstream it built up to 1.9 million barrels a day and was the cornerstone of the UK economy for 30 years which equates to about 0.0345 barrels per person per day. Output today is about 800 thousand barrels which equates to a Scottish economy 0.16 barrels just less than 5 times as much per person. What people ignore is that our whole lives revolve about oil, we eat about 10 calories of oil per calorie of food, we are wearing it, our transport needs it. We can not live without it and that is why if you have it under your control then one can use it to build a sustainable lifestyle to wean us of the stuff which is irreplaceable. Sorry for ramble.
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Oldnat yonder econimist bloke from Ireland thats been quoted in other posts said that Scotlands population was gonna decline so i guess we have room for some immigrants. I dont mind who comes as long as they work and integrate into the community and besides the Polish aisle in T****s has some nice stuff lol. I can kinda see the Uk governments new stance but i doubt they will actually do anything, from what ive read of the Immigration folks they are not very good decision makers.
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#170
I think I will agree with you and thank God for 1906 and the creation of the labour movement.
I always fail to see why the British workers have become so subservient, it wasn't so long ago that all private sector workers had the right to a final salary pension scheme.
I have to say I'm not to keen on the EU deciding my tax or anything-else, however I do agree that their employment laws are far greater than ours (I would listen to oldnat on the EU issue)
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#173 I agree with that .. I dont think people generally think about where a tin of beans comes from or what cost to make tin, source beans etc... probably comes out of a whole !
I only hope that the SNP get the chance to forward some of their ideas. We definately need to progress with renewables what with our weather/terrain in Scotland. There will have to be big changes in the world . Unless cold fusion is perfected were all gonna be going to work on a horse ..... well i wont be unless airlines use flying horses !
:o)}
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#171
Rabbie my friend, never accept anything less than your entitled too.( sods law)
Rabbie, I to hope the days of golden hands shakes to the upper class are gone and I would negate the principle of action against
any unfair reasons.
The problem we still have in our society is individual greed above collective stance, I hope you catch my drift there.
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#172 derekbarker
"increase the population by another 10million"
Somehow, I can't see the Scottish population tripling due to immigration (or even due to the nervouse game!).
Where did you pluck that number from? Your UK Minister wants to cap the UK population at 70 million - yet in the EU, theoretically they could all move to the UK - do you want to renegotiate the European Union?
In reality, unless you want to follow UKIP, all you can do is to limit non-EU immigration. (I tried to find figures on the white/non-white ratio of non-EU immigration, but drowned in the BNP filth).
Given the statements of the Immigration Minister on TV, however, racism seems likely to be a factor in the decision.
"its only right and proper that you have to look at all the measures that have an effect on the public purse."
So your Socialism is Stalinist rather than Trotskyist? - Socialism in one country, and hell mend the poor in the rest of the world.
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cynicalHighlander #146
I'm scaremongering? Eh? Because you're failing to support your own statements?
Seems I've smoked you out doesn't it?
You've really fallen on your sword with that pathetic 'I won't answer because you're a unionist' (which I'm not, but is beside the point) type-remark. For these purposes, it's irrelevant if I'm a unionist, nationalist, marxist or psychiatrist. The fact remains, YOU've made a statement which you're apparently now unable to support.
I remind you, your 44:
Quote
Scotland has a more varied economy base and if markets fail the impact will be far less severe.
Unquote
And my #65, which STILL awaits YOUR resonse : "To persist, exactly where is the Scottish economy more broadly based than that down south? I wish it was different, but I do think you're wrong on this one."
It's not up to me prove anything - I'm merely asking you to give credence to the statement that YOU made, (but possibly now regret?).
Please, please, don't grass me up to the feared Scaremongering Police. Likewise it's infantile to judge as disloyal those who ask questions.
Other people read these blogs, and we're still awaiting your reasoned reply - not Wikipedia's! Are you going to answer a reasonable question?
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#175 derek
I'd posted my #178 before your #175 and #177 were published.
I suspect that our views on many issues are very similar, except that you seem to be locked into supporting the views of a party which long since abandoned your principles.
Frankly, I don't understand people who loyally support any party, as opposed to supporting their principles.
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# 175 derekbarker
I won't pretend that I am a fan of the labour party, I saw what they did to my home town of Dundee during the 60's. I'll never forgive them for that. As to the trade unions, I believe passionately in the idea of trade unions but my experience with them has not been that good. I have seen them spend our money and their time on furthering the cause of extreme left wing politics to the detriment of the UK rather than doing what they were originally founded for, which was to look after the rights and welfare of the working man. They seemed to me to have gotten themselves lost in this ridiculous rush for global communism. I remember the Wilson government when it was the unions that ran the country and not the elected politicians. It's bad enough that politicians run the UK never mind Joe Bloggs from down the road. Anyway, my father always said: 'Never vote for a man who wants to be a politician.'
As to the EU deciding tax matters, I'm not a great fan of any taxman, no matter which country he comes from.
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# 180 oldnat
'Frankly, I don't understand people who loyally support any party, as opposed to supporting their principles.'
A beautiful sentence but too many of the electorate are members of the species Ovis aries.
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#178
Set them up i'll break," is it oldnat", I think you know I was talking about an increase in the whole of Britain (yes)
Its not about racism or I'm all right, stuff the rest, its a simple case of an economic slow down, that effects all things related to the public purse.
I'm surprised you take this line, its not helpfull.
Are you suggesting that Scotland should increase its population to 10 million?
Its been a long time since i've heard that phrase trotsky.
I must of hit a raw nerve early.
I do hope your not suggesting that the labour party favours the BNP.
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#180
I'm did react to your post.I to have no time what so ever for the BNP.
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184 ... Or the SNP ;o)} !!!
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#182 gedguy2
Actually, I don't think that people are "Ovis aries" (sheep). If they were then (at least the Scots) wouldn't have exhibited the dramatic shifts in voting patterns that they have during my lifetime.
Parties are vehicles for politicians to achieve power. Simultaneously they are the vehicles through which the people can select change or the status quo.
#184 derek
Your post was a little incoherent. I don't think you are flirting with the BNP stance, but your party seems to be doing so. Are you still willing to support them?
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# 186 oldnat
I still maintain that there are TOO MANY people who are sheep, I did not say all of them are nor would I insinuate that. However, I have met too many people who are voting the way they do because their fathers had voted that way and state it with pride. (I must be meeting the wrong type of people) When I ask them, 'What do you think?', they tend to be lost for an answer. Sadly, there are too many like that. I agree with you on the shifting voting patterns but we have always had that and those non aligned are the people I tend to admire the most. I say that but when I have been resident in Scotland I have always voted SNP. Whether I would vote for them after independence, I would have to think about that. Anyway, it's getting too early in the morning for thinking clearly so I'll retire for the evening.
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There's a new UK poll in the Indy today reported on their Game on: Brown recovery cuts Tory lead to single figures the full details are already on the the ComRes site. I'll look at the details and report later, but at first glance there is, as usual with UK polls, insuffient Scottish data (90 out of 1005 respondents) and fieldwork was completed last Thursday, before the "truce" over the financial crises had been broken.
The Indy also have an interesting opinion piece in Alan Watkins' In the long run, Mr Cameron need not worry with the intriguing by-line: "Whatever the Prime Minister's current crisis standing, most Labour MPs expect to lose the next election". No change there, then.
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#184 derekbarker &
#185 rabbiehippo
It's worth noting that the BNP got 0.1% of the vote in Scotland in 2005 compared to 0.8% in England.
Interestingly, in the new ComRes poll, of the 74 in their Scottish sample who'll probably vote there is exactly 1 BNP supporter and in the 27 who probably won't there is also exactly 1 BNP supporter. As it was a telephone poll, I wonder if a researcher outwith Scotland unfamiliar with "foreign" accents misunderstood two responses or even got the response "nationalist" and just assumed it meant BNP.
PS: Don't ask why the numbers don't add up to the 90 in my #188 because I have no idea. These are the unweighted responses and so should not include fractions of a person.
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Yet another interesting piece in the Indy by Salmond ahead of his conference speech today and covering much the same ground as his BBC interview with Brian. What's really interesting is that it's in a "UK" paper rather than a "regional" one. See: Free Scotland to do its duty to its people.
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Oldnat
I am a little surprised that someone who frequents such blogs as this is amazed to find people who put party subservience ahead of personal principle.
This phenomenon is the biggest obstacle to a proper debate on any issue, but particularly independance.
I personally blame the lack of teaching of democratic principles in School. Most schools don't teach kids how the political system works and what democracy is about, and what responsibility democracy goves to the individual. Peopole learn this mainly from their parents. So sadly most just trot along the way they always have and the standard of debate falls away year on year.
However the rantings of some on this particular blog have sunk to new lows. Some are absolutely pathetic in their inability to examine an issue with any degree of independant thought.
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#191 northhighlander
I agree. It is sometimes like the blind leading the blind. If a valid point is made, most bloggers do not comment on it all. In terms of what is taught at schools, you are spot on. But is not just the tuition of political systems that is lacking. History teaching tends to shy away from in the last 100 years. Screeds of stuff about the Tudors, yet the last 100 years has reshaped the landscape of our existence more than any other period of history.
Strategically in pretty much any arena anything you may care to consider (military, economy, politics etc) ignore the historical precedents at your peril. Unfortunately the inability to rationalise or analyse complex or even simple issues is not just confined to bloggers on this or any other forum. Our so called political elite leave a lot to be desired.
But what is surprising that even if they do not possess the knowledge they have at their fingertips the means to do by using a search engine on their browser. I thought I was fairly knowledgeable already (I confess I am a bit of a bookworm), but in retrospect I have learnt heaps more on the web so in the process my outlook on certain topics or issues is in a state of dynamic evolution. In other words a political partys worst nightmare!
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#191 northhighlander &
#192 excellentcatblogger
Good points well made. In addition, there are those clearly capable of rational debate but unwilling to engage in it.
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# 191 and 192 'Teaching of politics in schools'
One of the problems about laying the blame of political ignorance on the education system is that the teachers are leaving themselves open to the charge of influencing their pupils to their own viewpoint. I am very wary about having our children taught politics in schools; it smacks of totalitarian propaganda. I would rather our children are taught by their parents and their peers than have our teachers thrown into the arena of dirty politics. Anyway, our teachers have enough to do without laying this on them as well. Our teachers are not there to substitute the moral obligations of parents.
As to the teaching of history put ably by excellentcatblogger, that is a difficult one. Again see the paragraph above. However, if a political consenus can be reached by the political parties in the Scottish parliament then I see no problem with teaching this history to 15 year olds and above. I'm a believer in allowing 16 year olds to have the vote. If they have to pay taxes at that age then they should have the legal right to have a say in how their taxes are spent.
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Having now trawled through the main newspaper websites, I see two more polls have been done, but few published details yet.
There's a new ICM poll for the News of the World discussed on their Surge in support for Brown won't last. Few details but the article says: "ICM were told by 13% that they would be more likely to vote Labour. However, 22% of voters say they are now less likely to back them."
The People mention a new exclusive YouGov poll, but with no discernible detail although there's a nice quote from Eamonn Holmes: "Gordon Brown keeps saying he knows exactly how people feel about the financial crisis - I'm not surprised, we're scared of losing our jobs too".
Scotland On Sunday report on the ComRes poll in their 'Man for a crisis' Brown urged to call snap election and say: "Calls for an early election will only be increased if Labour can cling on to the Glenrothes seat at the by-election there on November 6. Party managers now say they have an "even-money chance" in the race, claiming that the economic crisis has hardened support." The bookies don't yet agree, but does anyone here I wonder.
No polls in the Sunday Herald, but nice to see in their "HBOS deal must be reconsidered" editorial that they're not following the party line as closely as usual.
Finally, anyone fancying a spin down memory lane might want to read Alastair Campbell's Why Brown is Britain's only serious choice in the Mirror, but do have a sick-bag handy.
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On reflection, I fear it is unrealistic to predict anything re Glenrothes from the new ComRes poll other than to say that their weighted result for Scotland shows Labour & SNP neck and neck at 37.5%. As the two parties were neck and neck at about 28% in 2007 when the SNP won the equivalent seat there is obviously still all to play for, but polling next week should be more interesting as the conferences will be over as well as the "truce".
What concerns me in particular is that the Scottish sample seems to have either been very skewed of perhaps forgetful of their 2005 actions.
According to their recollections, 37.70% voted Lab in 2005, LibDem 16.39%, Con 8.20% and Other (obviously mainly SNP) 37.70%.
This is in contrast to the actual 2005 voting pattern of Lab 38.87%, LibDem 22.63%, Con 15.83% and Other 22.67%.
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#30 embraman2 wrote:
"I'm afraid it reinforces my gut feeling that political nationalism is, at its very best, just a little bit creepy and not an appropriate activity for grown-ups."
When you grow up you might stop making silly vacuous remarks. The SNP and Plaid Cymru want self-determination. What's wrong with people wanting to make decisions for themselves? Parents need to make decisions for very young children. Scotland and Wales do not need any more UK paternalism. We've paid a heavy price for it over the centuries. Do we need Thatchers, Redwoods, Blairs, Prescotts, Mandelsons and Browns running and ruining our countries? No!
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It strikes me in all the brouhaha about Glenrothes that the unionists do not try to get the SNP on their tax policies.Although there is the superficial image of a tax freezing/cutting administration friendly to citizen,pensioner and worker I cannot get away from the fact that all small countries cited as being admired are high tax countries.From Scandinavia to New Zealand via Canada and Ireland all have high local and national taxes,as well as inheritance,property and sales taxes to make your eyes pop.As well as the recent fashionable green energy taxes which seem to be popping up everywhere.
I was in New Zealand a few years back and couldn't believe my ears at hearing of national income tax at 33% plus all the others whilst my wage for the post I was in at the time was half of what I could earn in Scotland with 22% off in tax.
I've heard Johann Lamont being scathing about the SNP wanting scandinavian levels of public services on uk levels of tax and whilst I am no lover of the lady's party and it's policies it's a charge that I feel hasn't been rebutted either ably or at all.Even Norway's famed oil fund hasn't saved them from having to pay out in a big way.
Anyone care to agree,disagree or rebut sensibly?
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179. At 00:48am on 19 Oct 2008, Planejock wrote:
cynicalHighlander #146
??.I remind you, your 44:
Quote
Scotland has a more varied economy base and if markets fail the impact will be far less severe.
Unquote?
Just noticed your post, hope cynicalHighlander won?t mind me making just a few suggestions:
The place of farming in Scotland?s economy, whilst relatively small, is still very much different to that in, specifically England. We export £4-5Billions in foodstuffs every year, mostly to the rest of the UK.
England has a substantial agri-sector but it is swamped by the size of the population, so they have to import most of their food.
Scotland has between 65-70% of the remaining fishing capacity in the UK; one of the reasons that the SNP wish to lead Common Fisheries negotiations with the EU as other regional governments do elsewhere in Europe. Add to this too the substantial shellfish industry on the West Coast which exports all over Europe.
In both farming and fishing the UK Government have taken unilateral and cavalier decisions that are damaging not just to these sectors in Scotland but also in NI and Wales. Why? Because in a UK context, where large scale industrial farming and the free market are admired, food security and food-miles comes well down the priority scale.
It should go without saying that our oil and gas sector is a big difference between us and the rest of the UK, not just in extraction, but in exploration technology, sub-sea technology, pipe-laying tech etc. Aberdeen is used as the base for most non-US oil development; it is English speaking and now has a huge indigenous skill base.
Our electricity generation is another area where Scotland and, again specifically England differ. We currently export, mainly to England about 25% of our generation.
England imports electricity from France and us.
Tourism as a share of the Scottish economy is also much larger than in England, and it should be larger still. The examples set by Austria, Switzerland and Ireland show that we could do much better. Austria in particular, a country always consider poor and backward by Germany and Switzerland, was trumpeting two years ago, that they had overtaken Germany in per capita wealth. While the ill concealed animosity is not something to be admired, their dedication and hard work to build their economy, particularly around tourism, is definitely worth admiration.
Just a few suggestions, there are others I could post on but that should be enough to be going on with.
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168. At 00:03am on 19 Oct 2008, oldnat wrote:
derek
As our resident Labour supporter, what's your take on the Immigration Minister's idea of limiting immigration to the UK?
The main parties in Scotland were unanimous in encouraging immigration to Scotland.
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The last thing we need is more immigration. By this I mean above the normal immigration which balances migration.
Here's why:
In East Kilbride, where I live, the Council rebuilt three secondary schools at the expense of the previous six. At the time, our Chair of Planning personally told me that the schools had plenty of spare capacity.
Of the three school which were closes, these sites are earmarked for housing.
We now have a situation where the new schools are approaching capacity. What also causes problems is that two of the previous six schools were RC, now there is one. The local Bishop (Cardinal?) has recently make comments in the local media that appears to hi discouraging the RC school from taking any further non-denominational pupils. That puts further pressure on the other two schools.
The local hospital, Hairmyres, was rebuilt a few years ago, but has significantly less capacity than the old one.
And some people want to encourage immigration? Never mind the talk about adding to the economy. It adds significant pressure to already stretched resources. One of my children has to see a specialist orthapedic surgeon every few months. There is ONE afternoon slot per week and it is crowded. Other areas of the NHS and other services are equally stretched.
Many east europeans are immigrants. Yes, some of them work but go for a walk through Glasgow City Centre at lunchtime and they are either selling the Big Issue, begging or busking. Its not being racist its hard fact.
My neighbours are immigrants and they all work. They did not pop over here as do many Eastern Europeans who are here for benefits. Why should the UK taxpayer fork out child benefit to children in another country? Why did they not stop off in France or Germany?
We have a serious lack of social housing. Waiting lists are years long and house prices, while dropping, are still beyond the reach of many.
If the Scottish economy rises up, independent or not, then this will attract migrants, most likely with the desired skills.
We already have many hard working immigrants who are very welcome. But we do not want more influx of people only after benefits.
People talk about conspiracies. Perhaps people should look at what sort of organisations the Scottish Government is paying out grants to.
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198. At 12:22pm on 19 Oct 2008, nursebill
I suggest you look at my 114 above. In theory the GERS report takes all the taxation and revenue and works out the Government income and expenditure for Scotland. There are various assumptions in it necessitated by Scotland?s continuing integration in the UK.
Over the years it has steadily improved in its accuracy as economists, academics and accountants have challenged various aspects of it, and the civil servants who prepare it have accepted these challenges and amended the methodology. It is still very much a work in progress and is only a statement of Government taxes and expenditure.
To address your concern the last GERS showed Scotland could be independent with the existing tax regime and be about 8% better off than it currently is in the UK. The next one should show an even better picture.
Clearly when we are independent the tax regime will be the subject of the democratic process and will evolve to suit the needs of Scotland.
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#198 nursebill
Comparing tax rates between countries is tricky, as you also need to consider the threshold level of income when different rates of tax apply. In the UK we also have national Insurance which is simply just another income tax as it is no longer earmarked to pay for state pensiions.
What small countries should do, is aim to have a small number of taxes and collect them efficiently. In Brazil and the US for example there are various sales taxes collected by different regional bodies where the tax raised barely covers the cost of collecting that tax - kind of defeats the purpose really. The other aspect relates to attracting multinationals to locate in that country, an example being Ireland which has an impressive track record.
In a sense it is easier to run and administer a small country as most political or socio economic policies tend to be "one size fits all" idea. In small countries this is more likely to be applicable practically than in large countries. eg in Europe the Eurozone nations are generally at different points in their respective economic well-being so a pan European policy is unlikely to satisfy all of the people all of the time.
The only thing that Scotland has not managed well is the over-heating (mostly high house prices) in the South east around Edinburgh. Shades of the south east in England kick started by Mrs Thatcher. Also the majority of the population is concentrated in the central belt - I think that I can hear quiet murmurs from the highlands "long may it stay that way"!
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impeachblair #199
Thanks for your sensible response on behalf of cynicalHighlander, who now seems to have taken feart - well, you know what a "scaremonger" I am! As you know, I was hoping for a little dialogue (but without resorting to loyalty accusations or recourse to web pages), which you've now amicably provided.
I do largely accept most of your points but however, my issue was cynicalHighlander's sweeping statement, "Scotland has a more VARIED economy base"(my caps). That's where I differed. Whilst accepting our lesser dependence on energy and agriculture, also including fisheries. The point is those industries are also strongly replicated down south.
Posssibly population-led, but dare I say that in fact England actually has the broader economy? Just off the top of my head (without Wikipedia, lol!) to name a few, we just don't even begin to compete in the aerospace, automotive or film industries. It would be good to get out of our agro-energy economy cycle, only one of which is renewable, and that's the low-tech one! Incidentally, down south they're even coal-mining again; I don't know if that's a good or bad thing, socially or economically.
Hope I'm not gonna get pilloried for saying that, but it does no harm to look at the neighbour's house before re-planning our own!
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With reference to certain remarks in previous posts and on the subject of what is taught in schools that might impact upon the quality of public discourse, particularly political debate, it is perhaps worth noting that independent thought is traditionally nurtured in France through the teaching of certain philosophical disciplines in school up to quite a high level for older pupils. This approach allows teachers to teach useful analytical and debating skills without falling into the danger of over-exposing pupils to certain historical or political subject matter and indeed personal views, which might smack of indoctrination.
Nevertheless, the teaching of anything in history itself does necessarily involve making choices about what to include and therefore exclude, as not everything can be included. At present France is having a thorough rethink about such issues with a view to skewing teaching of history and civics further towards a euro-centric bias in order to encourage further allegiance to the European Union, the flag of which has been displayed alongside the French flag for rather a long time now. The idea appears to be to associate national interests with European ones, whereas in Scotland people are still being urged to associate and indeed confuse national interests with UK ones, while the UK continues largely to regard the European Union with suspicion and reserve, teaching nothing so much as how to drag one's heels and slow the development of the EU down to a snail's pace.
A lack of analytical thought is nowhere more evident than in the assumptions contained in unionist views concerning the conduct of the UK government in the HBOS affair. A little objective analysis might lead one to conclude, as the banker Jim Spowert stated on the BBC's televised Scottish political programme this morning, that the economic effects of the takeover of HBOS by Lloyd's TSB, if it goes ahead, will be very severe indeed and that the Scottish economy can be expected to be so disastrously badly affected, with huge job loss, even beyond the banking sector, that the political fall-out of it, combined with the fall-out from the general economic impact of the wider financial crisis, is not unlikely to consist in a sharp increase in support for Scottish independence. If even those of us who have no direct interest in any particular outcome can see that that one is being made more likely to occur as a result of UK government policy, why cannot those who argue for the union see it? Can it be that their faith in their cause is blinding them to a not very abstruse point? Or do they need to go back to school and learn how to think?
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#200 Neill_Small147
"The last thing we need is more immigration. By this I mean above the normal which balances migration." By "migration" I assume that you mean here emigration, as both immigration and emigration constitute migration.
The need for government to control migration so that there is a balance between inflow and outflow may be accepted for the sake of argument, and indeed it does rather seem on the face of it to be sensible to do so for a range of reasons that we need not go into.
One then needs to consider if migration is likely to be controlled in such a way as a result of a UK government statement of intent to do so. To that end one should examine the history of immigration control in the UK. Has any UK government, even before UK membership of the EEC/EU, ever managed actually to implement successfully the controls that it has put in place? Without taking a view as to whether or not it would have been desirable for UK government to have been effective in this, I am afraid that it has not been. Why? Although it is getting better at devising schemes and mechanisms for exercising more effective control in this area, the fact is that it has never been in control of immigration and is not now. The only control that the controllers ever thought they were exercising effectively was by means of erecting barriers that looked as if they might be effective so as to serve as a deterrent. Unfortunately for them, their revealed ineptitude and sheer inability to shuffle papers around without getting into a hopeless muddle has revealed that image of control to be as illusory as it was and is.
Even the new points-based system of control is primarily cosmetic. It may look fine on paper, but its implementation, like the implementation of everything that preceded it, is highly problematic. The actual means by which much long-term immigration actually contrives to take place in the real world is hardly touched by it. Even the introduction of ID cards may make little difference.
What does this mean for issues raised in your post? Planning of provision for a population the growth and composition of which cannot be very well predicted can be expected to be undermined, of course. Political fall-out in the wake of the global financial crisis and higher unemployment resulting from it? Potentially very serious.
Is there anything that can be done about all of this within the present UK framework of government? If there is, why has it not already been done? Is there perhaps something about the scale of UK government that makes it so incompetent in the admittedly difficult sphere of immigration control and other spheres? Discuss.
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204. At 2:55pm on 19 Oct 2008, frankly_francophone wrote:
Nevertheless, the teaching of anything in history itself does necessarily involve making choices about what to include and therefore exclude, as not everything can be included. At present France is having a thorough rethink about such issues with a view to skewing teaching of history and civics further towards a euro-centric bias in order to encourage further allegiance to the European Union, the flag of which has been displayed alongside the French flag for rather a long time now. The idea appears to be to associate national interests with European ones, whereas in Scotland people are still being urged to associate and indeed confuse national interests with UK.
A lack of analytical thought is nowhere more evident than in the assumptions contained in unionist views concerning the conduct of the UK government in the HBOS affair. A little objective analysis might lead one to conclude, as the banker Jim Spowert stated on the BBC's televised Scottish political programme this morning, that the economic effects of the takeover of HBOS by Lloyd's TSB, if it goes ahead, will be very severe indeed ....., is not unlikely to consist in a sharp increase in support for Scottish independence.
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So, we are to associate ourselves with the EU? What is the point in independence if part of a superstate?
Jim Spowert's analysis is one of many. While I can't comment from a professional point of view, not being an economist, was the solution to use Alex Salmond's "pump a hundred billion" better? That in it's own could wreck an independent Scottish economy.
It is an assumption that the job losses would mean a call for independence. You could argue that lack of jobs, therefore lack of tax income would prevent the move to independence because there is no money. And if there is a lack of jobs some people might move out of the country, thus further reducing the potential tax income.
Sir Brian Pitman was on Andrew Marr's show. He pointed out that if regulation is too tight, this will deter business. So a fine balance will be needed. Brown, Cameron and Salmond all know this. Salmond especially, with his plan to regulate public transport conveniently ignored not long after a donation was made to the SNP.
The people primarily responsible for the situation with HBOS are the executives. It is not the Conservatives, Labour or the SNP. Whereas Tories and Labour allowed deregulation, the SNP were not exactly clamouring for it to be tightened up prior to the problems either.
While you cannot allow a bank to fail, you likewise cannot keep pumping billions of taxpayers money to keep it afloat.
As for education in schools, I was taught in the late 70s and 80s about how Government worked. ie House of Commons, Lords etc. But it is a fine line to walk. We cannot have politics rammed down the throats of children. Politicians should keep their noses out of schools on such matters.
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process and will evolve to suit the needs of Scotland.
203. At 2:43pm on 19 Oct 2008, Planejock
Isn?t it pleasant to have a discussion and debate without rants, insults and juvenile put-downs?
England is after all, by population, 11 times bigger than Scotland. So the scale of industries is generally bound to be larger.
That is certainly true for agriculture. However, if the s*** were to really hit the fan Scotland being self sufficient in quality food and able to export it is a very good thing!
The same is true of energy production and oil exports. Remember too that renewable energy really has blessed us too, particularly in tidal, wave and hydro; there is huge potential here in production, but also in the design, engineering and building of it.
I didn?t mention aerospace as it is represented in both countries, Rolls Royce has a major manufacturing facility in the West of Scotland, and I believe some of the Airbus work is also done here. Add to that that the nascent space industry is also well represented in both countries.
Scotland is also a world leader in a number of technologies, like Nano-tech, life sciences, medical physics as well as the afore mentioned petroleum engineering etc so we are certainly not only an agri/energy economy.
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205 Deep_Thrapple & #200 Neill_Small147
What's had remarkably little coverage in the UK Press is that the European Pact on Immigration and Asylum has been the real driver of initiatives such as the Blue Card.
What was concerning about the Immigration Minister's statement was trying to put a maximum number of 70m on the population of the UK.
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205. At 3:43pm on 19 Oct 2008, Deep_Thrapple wrote:
#200 Neill_Small147
"The last thing we need is more immigration. By this I mean above the normal which balances migration." By "migration" I assume that you mean here emigration, as both immigration and emigration constitute migration.
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Oops, better brush up on my grammar!
I understand how difficult immigration is to control, but current EU rules make it harder. I know a lot from a professional aspect on certain areas of entitlements for non-UK residents.
While the UK has always welcomed immigrants, it appears to be getting a little out of control. What worries me is that is what gives rise to extremist politics. Less so in Scotland but certain areas in England are having genuine problems. When you add economic hardship it can fuel the fire.
I don't know how we deal with this sensibly. EU laws prevent many reasonable measures be implemented.
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"What is the point of independence if part of a superstate?"
The European Union is a union of independent states cooperating for the purpose of resolving issues which require to be addressed at a supranational level. By virtue of its independence France is able to take part in this process fully as a member of the EU and, as the current holder of the rotating presidency, is now leading the EU forward to the creation of a new financial world order, having today secured the agreement of the president of the United States to the convening of an international conference for that purpose.
Europe is a noble cause. Whether Scotland wishes to regard Blighty as a noble cause is a matter for the Scots. The European Union, whether you wish to define it as a superstate or not, is here to stay. France is embracing it and currently leading it, whatever you care to call it.
As for Scotland's potential to become independent, it can be argued that economic damage makes it even more desirable to acquire the control over the economy that independence within the EU and the eurozone would bring. If you need to restore the structure of your economy after an impact has damaged it, you need the economic levers which will enable you to do that. Alternatively, you can rely on the goodwill of your neighbour. The Scots would appear to remain to be convinced that there is sufficient reason to trust their southern neighbours to accomplish that for them. Even if they were so convinced, they may decide that it would be better for them to take on this task themselves. We shall see. Good day to you.
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This talk of immigration control is to me (a believer in a one world) abhorrent. What right have we to tell another human being where he should live on his planet? What we should be doing in the west is not concentrating our resources on stopping immigration but using the resources that the west has to solve the root of the problems that force those people to emigrate in the first place.
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211. At 4:34pm on 19 Oct 2008, gedguy2 wrote
Well said sir
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#207 Impeachblair ...Rolls Royce have an engine service facility at East Kilbride. Also bear in mind that if Beardie's (Branson) space project 'takes off' no pun intended then Scotland will have joined the Space Race abeit in a small way. That famous quote from the film Armageddon springs to mind ' have they found oil on Uranus' lol.
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#211 gedguy2
A fair point, but I would like to mention that I was not arguing either for or against immigration control or any particular form of it but merely commenting on its effectiveness or rather ineffectiveness.
Why was I doing that? The Labour UK government perceives that the economic impact of the global financial crisis is causing unemployment to rise sharply and that, if this continues, it may have an adverse effect on community relations, for which Labour will be blamed for not operating an effective immigration control. So the UK government seeks to assure the public that it is listening to their concerns and will reduce immigration by means of the points-based system that it has put in place.
My point simply was that, whether one thinks that they should be doing this or not, they are unlikely to be successful, for reasons which I stated.
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Impeachblair's attempt to sum up the Scottish economy (#199) focuses, as it always does for nationalists, on primary industries and tourism. I suppose because they're ways to make money from 'working the land' and heritage, things nationalists care profusely about.
What is particularly annoying is the tendency to tie Scotland's remaining manufacturing base to the primary industries, bragging about pipe-laying or pump-making or whatever. There's more to it than that. Touch Bionics and Wolfson come to mind, making prosthetic limbs and computer chips.
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Impeachblair's #207 weakens the above complaint. Though 'world leader' in nanotech sounds like an exaggeration. Any third party description of Scotland as such?
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impeachblair #207
Agreed, certainly with regards to your final para - and thank you! However, despite it being a heart-warming comfort, no nation is entirely self-sufficent in both energy and food, and obviously a home is always found for any surplus. Of course that also generally applies throughout the world, with any commodity excess.
Globally, amongst many others, down south they're also devoting huge investment to future energy sources, particularly chemically-based, being absolutely essential to any form of mechanical transport. In that field (with its huge - and increasing - financial returns) wind and tidal power both get blown away (lol, sorry!).
As you might gather from my username, I'm connected with aerospace; regretably RR up here just knock out panels (over simplification) at the behest of Derby, where all the real work, including R&D takes place. And those (including all Brits, the Germans and Spaniards) who think Airbus is anything but a French company are just kidding themselves - despite any francophile EU spin.
Everywhere I look, the overwhelming majority of all our day-to-day brands are companies from down south - or outwith the UK. That applies to banks(!), supermarkets, fuel companies, national lotteries, transport (except TG for Stagecoach and Firstgroup!) and it worries me. Even my work safety-shoes are made in Hull, rather than Scotland - or China! However, I must admit, the thought of "The SBC" as opposed to "The BBC" worries me even more!
Anyway, as I said, our home-grown Scottish economy is by no means broader than theirs down south. Indeed it's much more narrowly based, predominantly upon agro-energy. We cannot all work in just those two when/if the s*** hits the fan. We need Scottish jobs in our offices, factories design-offices and workshops. In one form or another, most of my acqaintances work for English (or EU) based companies.
Where's all the private investment gone? Apart from being gambled away on the sub-prime mortgage market. Ty RBS! Also I'm aware of a large skilled workforce migration to the south, not just in my own field, and guess what? They all remain there, starting families and putting down new roots. Banging 3p on "income tax" in Scotland ain't gonna help.
Meanwhile, rant over. Got it all off ma chest now! - but it's been nice chatting. I'm got to zoom off to Tescos now (whoops!).
P.S. - You got any thoughts, cynicalHighlander?
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215. At 5:16pm on 19 Oct 2008, Anaxim wrote
Well that is a nice constructive comment to add to the debate.
I suggest you go back and follow the thread and you will see what I said in context. The person it was addressed appreciated the posts even if you, in your ignorance, do not.
I also suggest you read some of my posts on my user profile. I had referred to the Life Sciences and to Nano-technology among others,
and if you think pumps, pipe laying, or operating at increasing depths are low tech or no tech I also suggest you do a bit of research.
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210. At 4:33pm on 19 Oct 2008, frankly_francophone wrote:
"What is the point of independence if part of a superstate?"
... the creation of a new financial world order.....
Europe is a noble cause.
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New world order is a worrying phrase. Who will it benefit? Not joe public.
Noble cause? Corrupt more like it. Why have the auditors once again not signed off the EU accounts?
EU is all about a minority of people having power. Look at Mandelson. Twice forced to resign and now a lord.
I'm all for European integration but not when I have little of any benefit.
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213. At 4:53pm on 19 Oct 2008, rabbiehippo wrote:
#207 Impeachblair ...Rolls Royce have an engine service facility at East Kilbride. Also bear in mind that if Beardie's (Branson) space project 'takes off' no pun intended then Scotland will have joined the Space Race abeit in a small way. That famous quote from the film Armageddon springs to mind ' have they found oil on Uranus' lol.
Actually that is only one of several Rolls Royce sites in Scotland, Inchinnan being probably the biggest and most highly skilled.
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rabbiehippo #213
Ref Branson's space trips, I realize your comment was a bit tongue in cheek, but to precis it:
Pay England, fly from Scotland.
It's a bit like RR at EK. The base technology and design comes from ? And the revenue goes to ?
We're still either just knocking out panels, or lighting the blue touch paper, on behalf of English-funded and English HQ'd companies.
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#221 I to work in the aircraft maintenance side of things and i can tell you that there are hardly any parts of an aircraft made in the uk ..well maybe the seat covers and carpets.There are companies within the Uk that do repairs tho, but mostly, avionics and electrical stuff is done in the USA or Europe. How Rolls Royce would function after or if independence happens i dont really know. But saying that they obviously make a lot of money from local trade so i doubt they would pull out. But then would the taxes have to go to Scotland instead of whats left of the UK. It might be the scenario that tax breaks in Scotland might be more favourable than elsewhere.
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#219 Neill_Small147
In this post you have given the impression that the quotation at the beginning of it comes from me, whereas it appeared in my post as a quotation from an earlier one of yours. The question "What is the point of independence if part of a superstate?" was posed by you and not by me. Furthermore, the word "superstate" was used only by you in connection with the European Union.
In addition I did not use the phrase "New world order" but did refer to "a new financial world order" in connection with the purpose of the international conference which is to meet to consider replacing the existing international arrangements governing regulation of the financial system.
If the unionist case for the maintenance of the UK state and for UK reluctance to participate fully in the European Union and the eurozone depends upon distortion and misrepresentation, I can only observe that it is not very convincing. Your characterization of the European Union is not one that I recognize, but your aproach to it is clearly very recognizably British. You evidently perceive the European Union to be a threat to the continuance of the British Union as currently constituted. Perhaps it is, and perhaps it is right for the old to give way to the new and for that which is no longer fit for purpose to give way to that which is. Good evening and good night.
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# 214 deep_thrapple
I did not mean to cast aspersions upon you and if you have taken it that way, then I apologise. I was merely stating my own conviction.
I meant that it was abhorrent to me that governments see the need to physically refrain another human from moving to another part of this planet because they don't have the correct piece of paper with a photograph in it.
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#224 gedguy2
I quite understand. Dinna worry.
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#222 rabbiehippo: "I to work in the aircraft maintenance side of things and i can tell you that there are hardly any parts of an aircraft made in the uk ..well maybe the seat covers and carpets."
Apologies if I've come in half way through the discussion and missed something, but you might get some arguments about your above statement from the Airbus engineers at Filton and Broughton. Wings are pretty important parts of an aeroplane after all! ;o)
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#226 Oh Aye ... sorry forgot about the Airbus wings. Och wings are just wings ...held on with speed tape ;o)}
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179. Planejock
Hi Planejock I was certainly not trying to mislead or pull the wool over anyones eyes, it is caused by my misuse and interpretation of the English language. You can certainly have my apology over any confusion or offence I have obviously caused not intentional.
199. impeachblair
"Just noticed your post, hope cynicalHighlander won?t mind me making just a few suggestions:"
I have no objections at all and can I thank you for your post, far more understandable and knowledgeable than I could of penned. Feel free anytime. Thanks again.
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217. Planejock
"Globally, amongst many others, down south they're also devoting huge investment to future energy sources, particularly chemically-based, being absolutely essential to any form of mechanical transport. In that field (with its huge - and increasing - financial returns) wind and tidal power both get blown away (lol, sorry!)."
One has to remember that those chemically based fuels will require oil to produce them which will in turn be reflected in the net profit. Wind and tidal just do what comes naturally to them at no extra cost just periodic maintenance. Transport in Scotland is a difficult problem to address especially in the more remoter areas. Imagine the East coast railway electrified along its length running on wind and tidal power making it more affordable to the general public. It won't happen in my lifetime, if ever, but future Scots would benefit.
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#229 I havent got the time to research this but that last statement about trains running on wind power. I wonder if its possible for electric trains to run off a wind turbine. Maybe one every couple of miles on a hill top with the excess electric going into the grid when a train is not in the area. Im sure somebody out there has the technical knowledge to answer that one !!
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Brian:
Superman and/or Clark Kent; were the same character; although Mr. Kent was a hardworking person during the day and Superman worked when there was problems...
~Dennis Junior~
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