Strict neutrality
And so Holyrood has signalled its majority disquiet at the takeover of HBOS by Lloyds TSB.
By 61 votes to 40, with two abstentions, MSPs backed the view that there was "a very real possibility" of finding a solution which maintains HBOS as an independent bank.
This motion was advanced by Tavish Scott, the leader of the Scottish Liberal Democrats, who was early in the field with opposition to the merger.
It won support from SNP members who are, as discussed previously, intuitively supportive of maintaining as much autonomy as possible for the Bank of Scotland.
Margo MacDonald also backed Mr Scott's motion.
Labour and Tory MSPs voted against. In the division, there were several absentees. You'll find them in Glenrothes, should you care to look.
At the same time, Chancellor Alistair Darling has said that "if for any reason the merger did not go ahead" then the Financial Services Authority would require to reassess the extent to which each bank, individually, would require recapitalisation by the UK Government.
New sums
Mr Darling's comments, in a letter to the first minister, confirm that the existing recapitalisation offer was calculated on the basis that merger had already been backed by the boards of both banks.
That does not mean "wholly dependent". It does not mean "predicated". It means that the sums have been done for one set of circumstances: a merged bank. New sums would be needed if the merger doesn't happen.
Which leaves us where? The Holyrood vote is a considerable fillip to the political campaign to maintain HBOS as an independent bank.
Mr Scott challenged UK ministers to "listen to the will of parliament". Given that they sit in - and report to - a different parliament, I don't expect that to happen any time soon.
Plus the chancellor is NOT lending his weight to the campaign against merger with his letter to the first minister.
Rather, under persistent pressure, he is spelling out the arithmetical and technical facts.
Maximum scrutiny
However, there is more to this for Mr Darling - who is an Edinburgh MP.
For all that he protests his strict neutrality in this matter, he has to be concerned about the jobs and influence aspects as far as the Scottish capital is concerned.
In practice, though, little has changed. As things stand, the merger proposal is backed by both banks - and will be put to their shareholders.
It is, however, decidedly legitimate for politicians to subject this to maximum scrutiny. The vote - and the correspondence with the chancellor - add to that.
I'm 
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"It is, however, decidedly legitimate for politicians to subject this to maximum scrutiny"
Of course, you are right Brian.
However, since politicians at Holyrood can do no more than comment, we are dependent on Westminster to take action under the Scotland Act.
So we simply come back to the core question.
If the Lloyds/HBOS merger would have been so large as to be anti competitive before the crisis, how has that changed since?
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Nick Robinson has opened a thread on Glenrothes
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'Mr Darling's comments, in a letter to the first minister, confirm that the existing recapitalisation offer was calculated on the basis that merger had already been backed by the boards of both banks.
That does not mean "wholly dependent". It does not mean "predicated". It means that the sums have been done for one set of circumstances: a merged bank. New sums would be needed if the merger doesn't happen.'
Your having to work really hard to find a distinction there Brian!
The Chancellor apparently doesn't care enough about his own constituents (or their jobs)to go and tell King Gordon that it is wrong to simply force through a bank merger for a political purposes.
It may well be that, in the end, a merger could be the right way forward - but why did the Government only offer to recapitalise HBOS if it agreed to merge with Lloyds-TSB?
Why were no other banks put under similar 'orders'/restrictions?
What would the regulator have to say about a single bank with such a powerful position in the UK mortgage market?
Why is it so unthinkable that other options could be explored. Frankly, that could have been done effectively in the time we have all been wrangling about it!
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Is Darling trying to sit on both sides of the fence until after the Glenrothes by election so that the SNP cannot claim that labour is unconcerned about the merger. Is there something in the report that Ivan Mandelsonski is sitting on which may come out and wreck the merger , so Darling gives himself a way out of the" only possible " way to save HBOS. These are politicians we're talking about , there is no reason to believe anything any of them say , and certainly no reason to believe that what was there stated intention last week is in any way there stated intention this week. Imagine what a wonderful boring world it would be if politicians were sensible and could be trusted.
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Hm. I wonder, will Westminster take any notice of this vote at all...? Even if they do, this is an interesting case to scrutinise ourselves. It has often been said that government sometimes ignores the clear wshes of its people, but will it ignore the democratic vote of a parliament it itself created ? At the moment it looks like they can and will.
Let Westminster reply, or not, and face the consequences.
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The merger is being pushed through solely for poltical reasons. The former Treasurer of Deutsche Bank already did the calculations for the amount of capital which HBOS would require to adequately address its liquidity requirements. These can be revisited. Lloyds is being subsidised to acquire significant assets at a fraction of book price.
The merged bank will lead to massive job losses, and reduced competition in the retail banking sector. It will likely have to be broken up again into smaller parts.
The Labour party's objective of demolishing the Scottish financial sector to get one over on Alex Salmond and destroy the case for independence has failed. Their actions starkly illustrate the high price Scotland is paying for the Union - The destruction of its industry, the frittering away of its natural resources, the accummulation of a massive Trade Deficit and now the demise of its banks- all could be avoided by having control over its own political and economic systems.
The votes of Labour and Conservatives betray their real loyalty to their Westminster masters and their readiness to denigrate and ignore the interests if the people they represent.
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#5
I also believe that this motion and vote will not be paid the least bit of attention at Westminster. Let them ignore it at their peril.
The people of Scotland and Glenrothes are watching, dare Westminster not act? It would be a very foolish move indeed.
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The proposed merger/takeover/whatever affects people outside Scotland. Last time I checked the "H" in "HBOS" stood for "Halifax". What do the people of Halifax think about all of this?
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I have no idea what is the best solution for HBOS.
However, we have heard much of the dangers of the merger with Lloyds. If that does not go ahead, what would be an acceptable level of taxpayers money to keep the bank's liquidity?
I'm not criticising the Scottish Parliament's vote, but all aspects of any plan must be examined.
If Lloyds decide not to take over HBOS, remember that they will be in direct competition and may begin aggressive marketing. Any you cannot use taxpayers money for commerical purposes.
Maybe the best solution short term is for HBOS to be suported by the Government. But I worry for the long term future.
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The most significant aspect of this affair, in my view, is the vote against the motion. It sees Scottish Labour choosing the Westminster line over the interests of Scotland and Scottish jobs albeit it simply as a message to the chancellor who might have to consider a unanimous message from Holyrood very carefully. Glenrothes voters please note.
And besides, the merger appears to contravene both UK and EU rules. So, if it were to proceed, it would rank alongside the Labour party's attempt to gag coroners for daring to speak out honestly and of course their (Labour's) stated desire to collect all email and text messages that belong to you and me. Not that I would dare to suggest they are trying to build a police state for fear of finding myself marched to the tower.
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HBOS shares bounced a bit today. Huzzah! It's now worth a whole £3.7bn.
So, if recapitalised to the tune of £11.5bn, the state holding would be 11.5 / (11.5 +3.7) = 76%.
But that £11.5bn was calculated on the basis that it would be merging with the less-risky, more-liquid, better-capitalised LTSB. If that's off, then more new capital is needed.
Shall we say £15bn? 15 / (15 + 3.7) = 80%. At least. Heading towards nationalisation.
The "save HBOS" crowd = clowns playing with fire.
And as for no.6 referring to "The former Treasurer of Deutsche Bank":
if this is Mr Ian Blackford, the only thing he was ever "Treasurer" of was the SNP. And as I recall he left that position in acrimonious circumstances.
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#8 rczzus
"What do the people of Halifax think about all of this?"
I am sure that the capital of Nova Scotia will be delighted to have further links to the "old country".
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11. sm_753
'if this is Mr Ian Blackford, the only thing he was ever "Treasurer" of was the SNP. And as I recall he left that position in acrimonious circumstances.'
Funny that! a certain Greenspan advised the present PM when he was chancellor and they were just following UK advise. How did that work out for Northern Rock, Bradford and Bingley. Have you got the figures for them?
http://www.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2562431/understanding-browns-bust.thtml
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#6 Brodick1
Hello, newbie. Relevant first post, albeit repeated from the previous thread.
Personally, I think that the jobs issue is the most important but that competition rules might ultimately have stopped it anyway. What's really good to see is that the home rulers have joined forces for a change, with Scott tabling the motion for the federalist LibDems. My hope is that this will signal the end to their stand-offishness re the SNP and that the home rule parties can continue to oppose together the unionism of NuLab and the Tories.
#11 sm_753
Hello, newbie. Rather an aggressive first post. You have an interesting but rather technical point re Ian Blackford. Both the Scotsman's Could prompt government action have saved HBOS? and the Herald's After the fall describe him as "former managing director of Deutsche Bank" rather than your fellow newbie Brodick1's "Treasurer" in #6.
If they are indeed the same gentleman as the former SNP Treasurer, then it shows a greater degree of Scottish consensus - apart from the arch-unionists - than we might have expected from what we can see in the International Socialist Archives, whose Tensions Surface in the SNP of many years ago reported: "Ian Blackford the SNP treasurer accused Alex Salmond of "Gross and unpardonable errors of leadership" over tax and the euro". At least they're both on the right side of the argument now.
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12. At 8:32pm on 30 Oct 2008, Brownedov wrote:
#8 rczzus
"What do the people of Halifax think about all of this?"
I am sure that the capital of Nova Scotia will be delighted to have further links to the "old country".
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Tsk, tsk Brownedov - you used that post in response to one of mine this week!
I'm slightly perplexed here. Opponents of the merger say that Brown is using this for poltical purposes etc etc. Fair enough.
But if they want the Government to bail HBOS out, does the Government not then control the bank anyway? Or I am getting Northern Rock-itus?
Another thought - NAG is probably big enough to buy out HBOS. If that was allowed under EU competition laws - and frankly I do not have a clue - would that not also put the jobs in peril since Clydesdale Bank is already owned by NAG?
To be honest the more I think about it the less chance I see of HBOS surviving in its present form.
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#12 brownedov
Funnily enough one of the subsidiary companies of the Halifax, Intelligent Finance have a big office in Rosyth. And Brown and darling were keen to protect BoS scottish jobs...
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As a person from the joys of Halifax, the one in West Yorkshire (you know part of that country down south), that lives here in sunny Edinburgh it does amuse that the Halifax part is always missed out and really it just the Bank of Scotland..
But in seriousness, in the town of Halifax the bank is the employer, it will seriously ruin the economy of a town that often fallen on bad times due to changes of industry.
Would be nice to think that up here the interest also extends to those people who work for the company in the town. But they have no reason to care I guess, Halifax being in England.
A solution needs to be found that offers the best, firstly for the banks customers, but also for the work force, be that with Lloyds or not. The small town of Halifax may not be the greatest place on earth (it really isn't I lived there long enough) but it does deserve recognition end of the day..
'From Hell, Hull, and Halifax may the Good Lord deliver us!'.. Or at least may the Good Lord deliver the town from being the forgotton part of this latest England Scotland political football..
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#17 DavieBob_efc_
Welcome to political blogging!
I've posted before that the North of England frequently comes off worst.
Scotland does better because it is a distinct political entity, so has some clout.
The North of England constantly loses its fair share of the English budget to London and the South-East.
Labour took both for granted, and still does to the North of England.
(Liked your suggestion to the Caption Competition!)
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Thank you oldnat.
Sadly the North of England in large parts is a forgotton wasteland. The South East of England is just far too dominant when it comes to inward investment, the North fends for itself. Just a shame that one of the Norths best assets which was the Building Societies was so taken apart with the rush to become plc's.
But really, I had family of many generations that work/worked for the halifax, think everyone in the town did, you can't go anywhere without running into a branch, I used to walk through the Head Office on my way to work and school as there is a path through it. A number of other major parts of the bank were based in various parts of the town.
The key thing is the jobs of this company, and how this company moves forward. But HBOS is not purely a Scottish company, when the Mr Bank of Scotland met Miss Halifax and they got together in a relationship that promised so much, Scotland gained part of England, not the best part, but part of it. Now the marriage is in rocky times and another woman is on the scene for Mr Bank of Scotlands affections. Will the nightmare end up being a messy divorce where Mrs Halifax loses everything including the house.
If there is a silver lining, least I won't have to put up with those adverts anymore. For some reason seeing Halifax TV adverts always just made me cringe.
But while I can, I will start a wee campaign to put the H.. Back in HBOS!
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14 Brownedov
"Hello, newbie. Rather an aggressive first post. You have an interesting but rather technical point re Ian Blackford. "
I have nothing against Mr Blackford, merely against *some* of the reporting of him.
He was *a* Managing Director at Deutsche (previously Bankers Trust / NatWest Markets), one of hundreds.
Not *the* Managing Director of the firm. (There was no such thing; as I recall the boss of DB was something like "Chairman of the Executive Board.")
He clearly gave the right credentials to the Hootsmon as they got the credits right on his interview, but simultaneously got them wrong in their reportage of that interview.
They seem to be running short of sub-eds there.
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#19 Davie
I'm glad to see your posts. Alex Salmond would have made a better case for saving HBOS if he had also highlighted that Halifax, and English town, was also going to suffer. That would also kill off the "Scotland can't go independent" arguments.
But it shows he is a politician just like the rest of them. He has a by-election to fight, and he wants to push the independence option, so he ignores Halifax.
Perhaps Brian you could put this to the First Minister. And to be fair also put it to the Chancellor by pointing out that Engish jobs are potentially on the line with the merger.
It would be interesting to hear responses from both sides.
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And while the politicians circle, the shareholders of HBOS and presumeably Lloyds await to see if they get any say in the companies they invested in and legally they must have. And the Prince of Darkness, it is reputed, is sitting on a report which ought to be in the open to aid the decisions which the shareholders should be making.
I thought the scheme when it first was mooted was hastily conceived and ill thought through and there was a whiff of a nasty odour about it. While the points mentioned above are being debated, perfectly valid requests for ALL the information to be out in the open are ignored. They also ppear to be obstructing any other offers which could be made - not sure how, but it seems that way. The shareholders are being ignored and before someone claims that they are all big 'corporations' - they are not. There are many 'small' investors who may have had building society accounts and savers who have been converted to shareholders, never mind staff who got shares who have got caught up in this sorry state.
Of course, the Scottish Parliament should be looking at the situation, but they need full information too.
The situation is becoming a stinking mess. Jobs and Integrity seem to have got lost in the quagmire.
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#21 Neil
I believe it would have made his case a bit more fair, but Mr Salmond can't resist a clash and well it to be expected..
As for answers from both sides, call me a cynic but my guess they would go like this.
Q- Mr Salmond are you concerned that the HBOS situation could have servere consequences both here and in the town of Halifax, and indeed other areas of Yorkshire where the bank employs staff?
A - I am not concerned as those are the jobs I want staying in Scotland!
Q- And Mr Darling, may I ask you the same question?
A- Where's Yorkshire exactly I can't find it on my map.. Only goes up to Cambridge I am affraid.. Oh there's a North of England I never knew that how quaint.
Possibly I am being a bit cynical there. Mr Darling may well have heard of Newcastle before as that is where trains stop..
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#15 Neil_Small147
"Tsk, tsk Brownedov - you used that post in response to one of mine this week!"
Yes, sorry about that. Like Oscar Wilde, I can resist anything except temptation.
I do know of the other Halifax in Yorkshire but have zero sympathy for the members of that old and once respected building society who helped to blow up the UK sub-prime bubble by demutualising.
Luck perhaps or maybe foolishness, but most of my savings have long been with the largest surviving building society, which is now having to pay for the greed of others.
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#20 sm_753
OK, fair enough. At least he's worked in the real world for a bank at a fairly senior level, which is more than can be said for Brown or Darling.
But in any event, it's surely the competition issue that was key. If it was illegal before the crunch, then allowing it should have been 100% conditional on not requiring public money, especially with so many jobs at stake.
The very fact that they both do have their begging bowls out means that the merger should have been outlawed before considering the rescues.
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#23 DavieBob_efc_
Sorry mate, but I've been in Scottish politics since 1960 - in different parties, but always working for Scottish control of our own affairs.
Now that you've woken up to how you've been screwed by London you can campaign for the same thing for the North.
By 2056, you might be getting near.
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so there we have it now.
nulab vote against the motion and tow the westminster party line.
all of scotland can now see that nulab are acting against the scottish intrest and yorkshires intrest.
why are the yorkshire nulab MPs not fighting for their workers on the halifax side of HBOS.
does scotland have to do it instead of them.
the nulab MSPs in scotlands parliament should resign as they represent westminster and not scotland.
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24. At 10:51pm on 30 Oct 2008, Brownedov wrote:
I do know of the other Halifax in Yorkshire but have zero sympathy for the members of that old and once respected building society who helped to blow up the UK sub-prime bubble by demutualising.
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Erm, um......I was one of these! But the offer was either money or shares - I chose money and it was one helluva offer to be honest.
The whole issue is now a bloody mess and I don't think anyone will come out of this unscathed. Brown and Darling look like they are wanting a merger for political reasons, Salmond has been inconsistent and reactive rather than proactive.
One side blames the other, no compromise and in the end I think HBOS will suffer in the end.
The way things are the Conservatives will probably will Glenrothes!
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OK The oracle has spoken, and the SNP is stuffed in Glenrothes -
In a brief interview on Newsnight, Mike O'Brien, Energy minister said that Labour was "gaining momentum" in the by-election. Polls show the party currently trailing by a few points to the Scottish National Party.
"It's getting a lot closer. These are difficult times for people, and I think the mood has changed quite a bit after the events of recent weeks," he said.
He added "People are recognising that politics has got to be taken very seriously as it effects everyone."
Why did none of the rest of us realise that politics was a serious business? Thanks Mike.
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#28 Neil_Small147
"Erm, um......I was one of these! But the offer was either money or shares - I chose money and it was one helluva offer to be honest."
That was the 2nd stage. The first was the vote to demutualise at all in your AGM. If you voted against then I'm truly sorry for you as well as for the rest of us. In any event, you were lucky to take the money and run.
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This is from the Scotsman on Glenrothes given its previous track record.
If its quote from one "Labour source conceded: "If the SNP are predicting a win, they are being more realistic than hubristic." is true (as opposed to spin) then one might be hopeful that the close result might edge the right way.
We'll see.
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#30 Brownedov
OK. I also admit my culpability. I had an Abbey mortgage, and took the cash to pay off my overdraft.
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Hmmm Scott of the Icelandic kind,
What a total mess, the nats and now the liberals are making of a very serious situation.
We have the new found liberals with their 20Bn cuts in local services and their proposed 3p cut in income tax.
We have the nats, who cant make up their mind on HBOS until an opposition party raises a motion in parliament.
Wait till Tues, we will see a change on the HBOS situation again, from both the nats and the liberals.
Kindergarden politics from the novice economist and the Icelandic Scott.
Well oldnat you seem to be stumped on all corners now and your just throwing meaningless suggestion all over the place,maybe you can answer the question on HBOS, Independence or merger?
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Brian,
One mans "fact" is another mans "fiction".
There is no such thing as "fact" where politics are concerned.
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Brian,
I find you statement that Mr Scott challenged UK ministers to "listen to the will of parliament". Given that they sit in - and report to - a different parliament, I don't expect that to happen any time soon, cuts to the heart of the Scottish political situation.
As you obviously recognise, the set-up of devolution and the Scottish Executive / Government was never meant to create a real base of power in Scotland. When it was introduced, it was expected that Scottish Labour would always hold the whip hand in Scotland and would, either through a straight majority or by forming a coalition, control the parliament allowing Westminster Labour to control the Scottish Parliament remotely.
The point here is, given David Camerons new position with regard to Scotland within the UK, and Tavish Scotts new more challenging attitude, will Scottish Labour find itself increasingly out of step with not only the other parties but also with the will of the people of Scotland.
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Derek Brownlee of the Scottish Conservatives said "We do not believe politicians should interfere in the commercial decisions taken by financial institutions and their shareholders" ..
Herein lies the great divide and the root cause of many of both Scotland and the UK's economic problems.
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Some think the SNP and Lib Dems misguided in thinking the unthinkable, offering a different policy or solution to that of London based Labour.
Is it not reasonable for the SNP to insist that the merger, as it now stands, not as it stood 5 weeks ago, is placed under proper scrutiny, and if at all possible, the Bank of Scotland to remain in existence as a pillar of the Scottish economy?
How long did it take Brown and Darling to come up with a policy on the Northern Rock disaster, answer over six months.
This raises a question that I have not heard the Scottish or London based media hacks raise, let alone address. Why not Brian?
With all the knowledge that Brown, Darling, Labour party advisers and the London based treasury possessed after the Northern Rock disaster, why did the credit crunch come as a shock out of the blue?
With the knowledge from Northern Rock, could Brown and Darling not see there was a final disaster on its way and take appropriate and prompt action?
Answer no, Brown and Darling learned nothing from the lessons of Northern Rock!
Why is this question not being raised by you Brian or others in the media?
A McG
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With the SNP voting for the proposal set down by Tavish Scott, is this an indication that Independence is now off the Agenda for Mr Salmond and his colleagues at Holyrood.
Would they be hinting at the fact that they need the UK to put money into HBOS to retain its "independent" status.
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Googlehoo, The Westminster Labour Party In Scotland are about as out of step with the people of Scotland as they could be.
It is difficult to see them getting any worse!
With each year, old lifelong Labour voters are dying off, while positive and aspirational young folk are reaching voting age and going to the booths to stick an 'x' next to SNP.
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#35 googlehoo
Well said. We have the LibDems remembering that they're home rulers too and Tories other than Aunty Annabel beginning to understand Realpolitik while NuLab seem stuck in a timewarp.
I now expect the latter to do their utmost to avoid doing anything at all about the merger until the polls have closed at Glenrothes in the hope that voters will forget about it.
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This vote merely highlights the pointlessness of Westminster-based parties being in Holyrood. Even the Lib Dems are merely voting along Westminster party lines.
Even if people aren't yet ready for independence, is it perhaps time to have completely independent parties in Holyrood, in the same way there are no Labour, Conservative or Lib Dem members of the Northern Irish assembly?
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#37 Alasdair_McGray
Good point. Its tremendously encouraging that the LibDems remember that their federalist policies are much closer to the SNP than they are to arch-unionist NuLab and official unionist Tories.
#38 ukfishman
I take the contrary view that, at worst, both are now operating on the "my enemy's enemy is my friend" principle and at best both home rule parties are starting to realise that they have a great deal in common in moving to the next logical stage of full fiscal autonomy.
Whatever it means will be nothing good for centralist NuLab.
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#40 Brownedov
I doubt if they can control events. This from today's HeraldRegardless of whether any of the HBOS executives should get a job running a sweetie shop, it's more than a little tactless for Lloyds to announce that they've already given "nine of the top 11 jobs in the group" to their own guys - the day after the Scottish Parliament voted on HBOS.
How this will play with individual floating voters in Glenrothes depends on their underlying attitudes.
Some, who have a feeling that Scotland is inadequate, will be more inclined to vote Labour.
Those who have a feeling, believe that Scotland is unlikely to get a fair deal from the UK, will be more inclined to vote SNP.
The proportion of each may well be influenced by the number who have come to think that the UK didn't bail out HBOS, but simply funded a London bank to buy it out.
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From a poster on NR's blog
"At 11:00am on 31 Oct 2008, Fredalo wrote:
Mods will be slow today - queue on the Ross Brand HYS blog 27,000 and counting"
Time for a coffee I think
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#39 what a bizarre, slightly creepy and plain wrong post!
The polls tell exactly the opposite story....the SNP are most popular with the 55+ age group (40-49% of their support from this age group), their popularity diminishes sharply the younger the demographic is (16-27% of SNP support is 18-34).
All other parties are most popular with 18-34 voters, with their support tailing off as the demographic gets older.
The polls also show that the SNP vote is much more male biased than any other party, and that for some reason they have a problem engaging with the female vote.
So much for the vision of "positive and aspirational young folk" turning to the SNP as you so fancifully suggest.
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you can see the fear in the nulab party in scotland over the possibility of LIT being introduced.
ever statment that they make runs along the lines, if you introduce LIT then LLOYDS TSB will not have their headquarters in scotland and they will cut jobs in scotland.
LLOYDS are a london based bank and do not care how many jobs are lost in scotland, their only concern is how much profit they can make for their shareholders.
nulab are attempting to equate the introduction of LIT to the job loses that are going to come about if the takeover goes ahead.
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watching johann lamont at first ministers question time was like watching a female iain gray, same style of speaking and long winded with no substance.
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will someone tell tavish that his 2p of income tax proposal does nothing to help the poor, as if you earn 7k a year you will receive about 20 pounds a year.
this will rise in incremets of about 20 pounds for each 1k per year earned.
if you earn 36k a year you will receive 600 pounds a year.
whereas if he supported the LIT proposal the opposite happens.
the poor get the maximum benefit and the rich do not.
it appears that tavish wants to give more to the well off and practicaly nothing to the poorer members of society who are the ones suffering most due to the high energy bills and higher food costs.
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I can't help but think that Tavish Scott has walked into the arms of the SNP on this and Labourtory has voted exactly as Alex Salmond would have wished
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Re #41 Brownedov
While I am a self-confessed pro-independence, I am also pragmatic about the situation in Scotland. I am not so quick to associate a pro-Scottish stance with independence. I believe there are many, both North and South of the border, who would welcome a more independent, self-governing Scotland without going for the full-on national independence.
I also think that there is no easy, quick-fix, all-encompassing solution in this arena, and am wary of people who have ‘one they prepared earlier’. We are dealing with a complex situation and ties between the countries of the union will not be easily untangled.
As for the Glenrothes by-election, the idea that if Labour win in Glenrothes then it is a victory is spin. They are (were) sitting on a 10k majority in Glenrothes and so anything less than a convincing win is a slide down the slope for them.
Having said all this, I am truly disappointed that Labour continue to plough on regardless as I would prefer to see a vibrant Scottish parliament where all sides of the political spectrum are credibly represented so that we can get the best out of our democracy. Scottish Labour must understand that credibility will only come from having independence from the Westminster party regardless of the constitutional environment.
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I like to see the Scottish Parliament supporting Scottish Jobs, the publicity generated for those in the Finance Sector must give some degree of hope that something can be salvaged from this unholy mess.
I am not convinced that an Independant HBOS would survive for very long, it really would be another Northern Rock and any nationalisation I fear would just stave of an inveitable day of reckoning some time in the future when the government return the bank into the private sector.
Let us also remember that HBOs got itself into this mess, no-one else. Other banks have not got into this mess.
Which brings me to another point. Why are our politicans not championing the cause of other workers suffering as a result of the actions of these banks? Who is championing the cause of the Construction Industry in this mess? Workers in this sector will suffer more than any other through no fault of their own. Many well run and managed small and medium sized construction companies have gone to the wall already, the majority of the blame for this lies with greedy bankers. Now we are expected to shell out money in huge quantities to support bankers through their mistakes and throw the construction companies to the dogs.
So why no such political efforts to help construction? Does Alec and Gordon not think there are enough votes in this sector? Or is it just that their cronies all work in the finance sector?
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Sky News Banner is saying that Mandy is to formaly anounce the merger of HBOS will go ahead today.
I hope Labour pays a Heavy penalty for this - starting with Glenrothes.
Between this 'announcement' and Labour showing at Hollyrood its contempt for Scotland and its workers I am discusted at the party who is supposed to be a bit socialist, bending over to the bullies AGAIN. My family has had 3 generations of Labour councilors, local and regional and even they are turning away from a group they dont even recognise.
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#45 bingowings87
Yes I'd noticed the strong SNP showing in the 55+ age group as well - this certainly conflicts with the "old received wisdom" of the young being more prepared to embrace change.
However, I think the more interesting pattern is the change between the 2 most recent YouGov polls - pre and post financial crisis.
The SNP % of the relevant groups in both polls is as follows -
Group, Pre, Post
Male, 33, 33
Female, 34, 25
18-34, 30, 16
35-54, 29, 27
55+, 41, 41
The key shift comes among young women.
Standard political theory would suggest that this group (containing most carers of children) are exactly the group who are most risk averse, and likely to support the status quo in times of crisis.
The aspect of "aspirational" groups being more likely to vote SNP held true in Glasgow East.
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STRICTLY NEUTRAL
Shame the same couldn't be said of you and the EBC Brian.
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Was there a special reason why BBC Scotland gave Gordon Brown a political platform on the midday news today , and did not extend the privilege to any other party ? I thought there were rules about impartiallity which were supposed to apply to these things. Not that it makes much difference ,they will still lose the by election, the only question is by how much. Their candidate was chosen as a sacrificial goat, and is aware of it , if they were by some miracle , to win, the constituency will be stuck with a nothing man who's neck will be sore from constantly nodding his head when Brown says nod , like the rest of Scotland's Westminster MPs.
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#51 Thats probably simulataneously the most sensible and interesting post anyone has posted here for weeks.
Kudos to oldnat!
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#43 oldnat
Good post and I agree with your analysis.
I saw the embrionic comment-blocked version of the Herald story last night, when it was the only place they mentioned the Holyrood vote. Now even that limited acknowledgment of Realpolitik has gone, suggesting they'd rather Glenrothes voters not know more about it than can be helped.
Of course there's nothing on that front in the Scotsman either, and their top political story is a rather desparate SNP accused of rigging odds with bookies to sway by-election voters but at least they don't seem to block comments.
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#48 googlehoo
I don't disagree with a word you write, but I also agree with sneckedagain's #47 but would add that the LibDems are remembering their home rule instincts and rediscovering their federalism. The SNP are much closer to being their natural allies than are the unionists.
In an ideal world, I would personally prefer the referendum to be on full fiscal autonomy and to get that working before even considering the longer term, but I see NuLab as operating so perversely that they will likely drive Scotland further towards full independence within the EU.
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#54 BrianSH re
#51 oldnat
Seconded.
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Brownedov & BrianSH
Aw shucks.
(I've been spending too much time on the US election blog)
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Sneckedagain,
Re Post 47,
I think you miss two important words from the first line of your post!! After the word 'walked' you should have added 'as arranged' as I feel this vote last night would be very much a result of arrangements made between the two parties outwith the chamber.
And well done to both parties for doing that!
Though I have little time for TScott, it is an encouragement that he seems to be taking a much more pro-active pragmatic approach to the Holyrood Parliament and both the SNP and the LibDems will be the short-term beneficiaries at least in the polls while the Tories and NuLab will now be seen to be in favour of redundancies at HBOS - not exactly a vote-getter with the people of Glenrothes, especially when there's a branch of HBOS sitting in the middle of campaign territory in the Kingdom Plaza!
I do despair of those whose angst at the HBOS position serves only to show their ignorance of the actuality of the situation. HBOS stopped being a 'bank' at the time of its takeover by Halifax in 2001 and has since filled its executive positions with marketeers and retailers and nary a career banker to be found amongst them! So why do we have politicians and others complaining that Lloyds are taking only two HBOS executives onto their Management team?? Answer - they were not fit for purpose, since Lloyds is a bank, but HBOS is now a mortgage shop!!
Here's an answer the the conundrum - let LLoyds takeover the old Halifax part and maybe part of the insurance side as well, then allow BOS to emerge under the leadership of Jim Spowart (and others), retain it in government ownership for a number of years (see Northern Rock) and release parcels of equity to the market from time to time with a percentage of equity specifically earmarked for other Scottish financial institutions. It seems to me, that in yesterday's vote, and with a good majority, the Scottish Parliament effectively endorsed the work, and approach, of Jim Spowart and others.
Let them get busy on plans to resurrect the core business of BOS with the will of the Scottish Parliament behind them - and no matter what Lord Mandy might do!
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#59 freedjmac
Some sensible thoughts there. I've posted before that maybe it would be more appropriate to nationalise H / TSB in exchange for government shares in a viable Lloyds / BOS.
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My God! Lie of the Week!
Gordon Brown "We have a low national debt"
Had me in stiches.
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The brigadier recently referred to an article in the Daily Mail quoting the Norwegian Foreign Minister. This story was subsequently picked up by the Times and Jim Murphy at Scootish Questions.
In case you haven't seen the Norwegian response here it is -
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#62 oldnat
Even the Herald have decided to run with the Norway story with their: Scottish Secretary accused of provoking "diplomatic incident" and are allowing comments which currently include the text of the said letter.
Good to see Murphy, the Mail and the Herald all helping the SNP cause albeit unwittingly, but it was ever thus.
PS: I have also just posted the same text on the NR thread
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I was going to correct the mis-spelling in my #62 "Scootish Questions". Then I decided it was possibly more accurate considering the brown trousers Murphy must have.
It is one thing for a couple of Tory rags to misrepresent the Foreign Minister of an ally and close neighbour, for their partisan purposes.
It is entirely a different matter for a member of the Cabinet to use the Dispatch Box in the Commons for the same purpose.
Murphy's first appearance and he makes a crass error!
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Sky News report
Nice to see it now official that the Government has overruled the OFT.Complain about this comment
Now if this goes ahead, will it not be in serious breach of competition laws? With all the borrowing that our government is doing and the problems the two banks are facing, they don't want to get given a large anti-competition fine by the EU afterward... what will that do to their finances? They did it to Microsoft, they'll do it to the monstrosity that will be the Lloyds TSBHBOS as well. Will the other banks in the country file law suits against them for their breach of competition laws? The fall out from this merger could be very interesting... why's it going ahead anyway... 37 billion has been made available to the banks to help them and Gordon promised 500 billion more if need be.
The mind boggles.
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It seems there is still no clarity as to what Jack McConnell is supposed to be doing (other than avoiding a by-election).
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#65 oldnat
Thanks for the link, which still doesn't seem to have been reported on this site.
It's also interesting that Sky don't mention (or perhaps don't even know about) last night's Holyrood motion.
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so the unelected and unliked mandleson overides the office of fair trading.
perhaps he should get his russian buddy to buy HBOS instead of gifting it to LLOYDS.
what you get from nulab is slease and more slease.
the nulab slease puts to shame any of the previous tory government slease.
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PS to my #68
It's now reported in this website's Lloyds TSB's HBOS deal is cleared which also doesn't mention yesterday's Holyrood vote (at least the 17:00 version doesn't) despite now appearing on the main Scottish news page as well as the main Business page.
No mention yet on the Scotland Politics page (18:29 version) but a puff that "Duff" Gordon will 'fight for every vote'.
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The correct thing to do would be to encourage the big banking men of Scotland to form a new bank, possibly titled the New Bank of Scotland. This bank would have none of the baggage, sorry, heritage, of HBOS, but it could offer a good banking service. Which is surely what you actually want in a bank.
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Mandelson doesn't believe in the competition commission I see.
http://www.theherald.co.uk/news/news/display.var.2464807.0.Mandelson_clears_HBOSLloyds_TSB_merger.php
Just more blatant mis-governance ... no doubt we will all see him outside number ten in full mea culpa mode - for this or some similar act infringing on normal governmental business.
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Well done Tavish Scott for the excellent motion. I am delighted to see the Lib Dems and SNP supporting this, as it would be a great pity to see the loss of so many jobs and the HQ at the Mound going to London.
However, the Tories and Labour should have put Scotland's role in financial services first. It is hard to understand why HBOS cannot get the same deal as the other banks, so we can retain what is left of the Bank of Scptland
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#72 pattymkirkwood
Thanks for the link. Typically Herald - only the NuLab line spun, no mention of the Holyrood vote and now No comments allowed.
No wonder the print media are in such dire straits when they show such contempt for their readership.
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Those of you who don't have direct access to STV might care to look at their report on today's Glenrothes campaigning on their Gordon Brown blasts SNP's 'wrong decisions'.
Note the pro-unionist bias in the headline, but the report itself is reasonably balanced.
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Channel 4 has a story saying that Westminster was aware of the difficulties in the Icelandic banking system as long ago as March, but chose to take no action (apart from letting UK investors continue to invest, then seizing their assets under anti-terrorism laws?)
http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/business_money/should+savers+have+been+warned/2700367
Now how does that play with the 'no-one saw it coming, we've done everything we can and as soon as possible to fix it' line?
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Again for those of you who didn't have direct access to STV, you might be interested in last night's Politics Now where Michael Crow chairs a studio debate between the LibDem, NuLab, SNP & Tory candidates.
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#74 Brownedov, exactly right on the analysis there: Labour press release, no counter-balancing opinion given space - no way for people to have the obvious holes in the story placed beside it for them.
The really irritating thing for me is The Herald is reasonable 75-80% of the time but then whenever something big looms up: comments are banned, and the spin becomes distinctly unionist as 'Alf' reasserts himself in the latest desperate attempt to save his beloved 'Labour' Party.
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Just to prove my point, the 2nd 'comment' piece in The Herald today was by the Scottish Secretary in which he attacked the Scottish Government 4 times. The headline reads: 'Let’s work together in these times of global turmoil’ – boom, boom!
http://www.theherald.co.uk/features/featuresopinon/display.var.2464568.0.Lets_work_together_in_these_times_of_global_turmoil.php
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#78 pattymkirkwood
I agree on the irritation factor. It's often less biased reading than the Scotsman until, as you say, something big happens.
The Scotsman seems to go the other way with week in, week out unionism before you get the occasional glimpse of balance.
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#79 pattymkirkwood
Point taken, but at least they did publish the Scottish Secretary accused of provoking "diplomatic incident" I link to in my #63 and which shows Murphy in a different light. I just noticed it's in the News section instead of the Politics section which may mean that allowing comments was accidental.
Anyway, I have a busy day tomorrow so I'm planning an early night. TTFN
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#76 Aye i just spotted that on yahoo news .... so Gordon says hes the man to take us safely through this financial turmoil..... yet they knew it was coming and had their heads in the sand.... this makes the hbos takeover look even more planned ... Gordon is mates with a lot of the top TSB Lloyds people so this comes as no surprise..... still they will be gone soon leaving the Tories in England to try and sort out the mess ....
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Regular posters will know I am fairly (!) neutral, but even I feel that the politics are behind the Lloyds / HBOS takeover.
It is so blindingly obvious I didn't spot it at first:
Gordon Brown appoints Peter Mandelson as Business Secretary.
Peter Mandelson authorises the takeover of HBOS by Lloyds.
Alex Salmond will make a formal complaint to the EU regarding competition law.
EU dismisses complaint after Peter Mandelson - with very strong links to Europe - presents case stating "it is in the public interest".
I personally do not believe that HBOS can survive on its own, and I am fed up with the SNP talking about "Scottish history being wiped out", especially when Halifax is English.
I am not in favour of full independence, but to be fair I cannot see how Scotland can now justify this, since they will not have a bank that is wholly Scottish.
Alex Salmond has failed. Why? He should have seen this coming well before I spotted it, and made the maximum political capital out of it. Instead, he used the nationalist approach. Slagging of the main players certainly did not help matters either. In my opinion, had he locked onto this weeks ago he probably would have succeeded.
Glenrothes will almost certainly fall to the SNP now, but that to me is collatoral damage as far as Labour are concerned.
I cannot see the EU overturning this decision. Labour have been playing ball all along - no referendum etc.
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#82
Rabbie, ya rascal, was it you that had those IRN BRU sausages, that were floating around Glenrothes.
If we canna get them we ore policies, we will get them with the sausages.
Well mate! the battles ore almost, how's your confidence?
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I don't think there has been an opinion poll in Glenrothes so it is very difficult to get a feel for how the election will go. A few points though: -
- Glenrothes was won by the SNP in the 2007 election.
- since 2007 I don't think there is any significant reason why an SNP voter then would change their mind now.
- since 2007 there has been plenty reasons why Labour voters would think about voting SNP now. Reasons; frozen council tax, cut in prescription charges, toll charges, the bounce Alex gives Scotland, energy bills, Brown's negligence in the past 11 years so that the cupboard is now bare, etc.
- Liberal and Tories will be squeezed.
- the confidence Peter Grant is taking from the doorsteps. That extends to his belief that voters are telling him that YES will win a referendum in 2010. Certainly on the ground the SNP are best placed to gauge how this by-election will go.
So, a comfortable SNP win?
Freedom
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The Times is suggesting that there is a "possibility that a rival bid for HBOS from a big European bank may emerge next week."
I suspect that even if that happened, Brown/Darling would find a way to block it.
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This has to be Dinwoodie of the Herald at his absolute worst!
The 2005-8 Government efficiency savings target has been exceeded (due credit to the previous Lab/Lib Executive) but the SNP Government has gone beyond their target.
Dinwoodie devotes half the article to the CBI demanding more, so that he creates a negative report.
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I am AMAZED at the sheer lack of substance in the Labour attacks in the campaign visits. 'The North Britisher 'Scotsman' even refers to it as a 'savaging'?
Correct me if I'm wrong - but the journalism should be in context of what was said, no?
So - we could perhaps attribute Darling's weekend interview as one where he was 'savaged'.
But let's look at Brown's 'savaging' here. Let's summarise.
'SNP make wrong decisions. They are letting Scotland down. SNP only talk about oil. Small is bad, small countries cannot cope. Scotland is stronger in the union. We understand these are bad times. We make good decisions. We make fair decisions. The SNP make wrong judgments. The SNP make wrong decisions - about big things. We make the right decisions. Labour make the right decisions'.
Scary back-beat, huh? Has anyone ever read/seen 1984? Amusing to think that Orwell may have pondered a Brown like character when he was listening to the wild moor winds off his croft in Barnhill, Jura, so many years ago.
People, especially the people of Glenrothes. Forget the Labour spin. Forget any local quibbles they are trying to manipulate and emphasise. Was everything plain-sailing in the previous Lab-council? Really?
Look at the BIGGER picture. Look at the words. Look at the lies.
Pull it apart.
The SNP are NOT only oil driven. The UK NEEDS oil for war and other reasons.
Dozens and DOZENS of small countries are coping, quite happily, unaffected by debt - as this UK is - right now.
Gordon Brown has made HUGE, ENORMOUS, COLD and FAR-REACHING mistakes on a truly GLOBAL scale that have directly contributed to the position in the first place.
Browns words are empty - completely vacant of substance. The comments about the SNP are sound bites, with no references, and certainly no degree of truth. What bad decisions?
The decision to fight unrequired nuclear weapons and power-stations? The decision to fight unfair council tax? The decision to complain, formally, about the influence of London led media? School meals? Prescription charges?
If this is what a minority SNP government can do, with a rabid unionist pravda-esque media backed by dark lords like Mandelson - well, you have to wonder what we could do beyond that.
See through the Labour LIES Scotland. DEFY the unionist press and all their machinations Glenrothes. Look at the bigger picture, and send Mr.Brown back down to where he feels comfortable - in London, England - inventing news to lie to the Scottish nation, whilst absorbing and utilising EVERYTHING this country has to offer on concerns that have NO relevance to Scotland.
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That's why CBI Scotland has called for a bolder programme of reforms - including greater private sector delivery of public services, privatisation of Scottish Water, and a more effective approach to public procurement of innovative goods and services."
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in other words CBI in scotland want to screw the public the same as the power companies are doing.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
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Politics Now where Michael Crow was askin the Questions did you notice what type of Questions he was askin in between(Labour) Are you the underdog? Why are Labour the underdog?nothing about what they would do different .a 3 year old could have answered his line of questions.
SNP ( That was different) tryin to criticize about the £ 51for the elderly emergency bleeper and the cost of homecare but I thought the Snp guy handled it well which could have been tricky but lets not forget that labour run councils are even more expensive than the £ 51 No questions like are you the favourite ?and why are you the favourite? can`t have that thats to easy thats just refreshing peoples minds what SNP can do for scotland and lettin people see what Labour wont do for Scotland they had plenty time to do so.
Watched Brown today is that all they`ve got to offer snipe at the SNP .
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#84 'Ore policies' whats that all about Derek ... dinna think the SNP is too bothered about mining just now...or should there be a missing letter/letters ... 'c' maybe or is it 'wh' lol
Dont know anything about IRN BRU sausages either ... by floating do you mean floating in the air or on water or just in general at Glenrothes....
Confidence ... mm what with the shenanigans that goin on with the banks and some of the negative stuff about Labour on the media i'd say Labour are nae gaining as much ground over the SNP as they are making out. I daresay people will look at Mandelsons return as dirty tactics and hopefully realize this Labour will do anything to stay in power.
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Regarding Brown and his Lloyds mates ... i put it that after the General election when Labour lose GB will obviously stand down and soon after will pull out altogether..... he will then go off to make lots of loot with his chums that he's helped. If you dont believe me then just look at TB.
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#96 rabbiehippo
Your comment could also be applied to most MPs and MSPs. Don't tell me that Alex Salmond or Annabelle Goldie would not be happy to accept the odd directorship in a company.
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Neil....aye thats true but so far to my knowledge not on the scale of Labour and the Tories. The SNP isnt on the same grand scale of things when it comes to sponsorship at conferences.
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So, as it looks increasingly like the HBOS merger is a political act, how about this?
Gordon Brown says that he will do anything to retain the Union, but what if that is not really the case? What if he thinks that the game is up and independence is inevitable, sooner or later. The logical step from his point of view is to embark on a policy of asset stripping on a grand scale, being opportunistic where possible rather than being blatant.
Want to back me up, or shoot me down in flames? I really don't mind, I was just thinking out loud.
I'm also re-reading '1984' right now, which isn't helping me get to sleep as it's a bit like reading NuLab's instruction manual.
Must... Not... Commit... Thoughtcrime!...
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83
Neil Small
Fairly neutral?
Do you think we're all daft?
It has been a source of continuous amusement to me for years watching the arguements in favour of the union steadily being reduced to an infantile level.
I ask myself if this because support for the union remains strongest among that section of the population who can't think very clearly.
I only ask.
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Jammykev, I watched Politics Now and agree with you that the line of questions where designed to butter up Labour and attack the SNP.
Given the amount of television, newpaper and over the top website media bias that has been given to Liebour recently, in that they only produce articles that attack trivial matters against the SNP and smoke and mirror stories tryng to promote a deceitful discredited manipulating party, if Liebour don't win in Glenrothes, they will be seen as in serious trouble and have no mandate to be in Scotland.
This blatant bias is a disgrace and is almost tantamount to buying votes. If for no other reason alone Glenrothes should send Mr Brown a clearly message that no amount of media propaganda will save a self serving Gravy Train government.
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Just took a wee look at branch locations for Lloyds and Hbos in the surrounding area. Aberdeen has 13 TSB's and 12 Hbos's and the main towns along the A96 have a branch of each. Looks like Fochabers branch of Hbos will be ok if the merger goes ahead as there is no Lloyds. It looks grim for a lot of people though and this in towns where jobs are very scarce .
Lloyds Place Hbos
13 Aberdeen 12
1 Inverurie 1
1 Huntly 1
1 Keith 1
0 Fochabers 1
1 Elgin 1
1 Forres 1
1 Nairn 1
1 Inverness 2
1 Banff 1
0 Macduff 1
1 Buckie 1
1 Turriff 1
0 Aviemore 1
0 Kingussie 1
1 Grantown 1
0 Aberlour 1
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100. At 11:23am on 01 Nov 2008, sneckedagain wrote:
83
Neil Small
Fairly neutral?
Do you think we're all daft?
It has been a source of continuous amusement to me for years watching the arguements in favour of the union steadily being reduced to an infantile level.
I ask myself if this because support for the union remains strongest among that section of the population who can't think very clearly.
I only ask.
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Infantile level? Precisely what your comment is. Grow up and stop insulting people.
And making comments that those who do not support the SNP are of inferior intelligence is arrogance at its worst.
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102. At 12:54pm on 01 Nov 2008,
In East Kilbride we have Lloyds and HBOS almost next door to one another.
But the news that there is a possible bid from Europe for HBOS could upset a few applecarts.
It may be that if it goes ahead then the HBOS branches may be saved, but the head office functions - at least some if not all - will not.
Whereas if the Lloyds merger goes ahead, then Head Office will likely be saved but local branches will not.
So what option is the worst?
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#104.
Neil.
Hello Neil,
I would be far more keen for HBOS to be bought over from our mysterious European bidders.
I felt that Gordon Brown and the Labour Party went ahead with Lloyds and HBOS for political rather then actual saving our banking system. Call it another conspiracy if you wish but you can not deny that this may help Gordon Brown and the Labour Party against the Scottish Nationalists and the those who support Scottish Independence.
I also believe that Lloyds will not be allowed sheer dominance once the HBOS takeover is complete and will have to break up eventually. Why wait? The European bid should be encouraged now rather.
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104 Ok head offices going are not good either but since they are in big cities its not so bad finding a job .... not so easy for small towns unless you want to commute and thats expensive ,as i know.
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I'm all in favour of local branches remaining. It supports the local economy for starters and that is more important than having a flagship head office in Edinburgh or Glasgow.
Now the question is who is thinking about a takeover?
Labour say they will stay neutral. Any response from the other parties yet?
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Thomsa_Porter #105 wrote:
"I would be far more keen for HBOS to be bought over from our mysterious European bidders."
Could you explain why that would be, Thomas? As you don't appear to know who the bidder is, why would that have your support more than the takeover by Lloyds TSB? It can't surely be because anybody but an "English" bank would be preferable? I rather suspect that this would be the position of many an SNP supporter, which rather gives the lie to the SNP not being an anti-English party. Would you rather have the "Bank of Scotland" owned by a foreign entity rather than a British one? Even a foreign entity of which you don't know the identity? An explanation is due I think.
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#108.
MalcolmW2:
I wrote on my earlier comment that I believe that the Lloyds-HBOS takeover held politcal objectives, while at the same time being used to shore up support for the Union while helping our financial services. Gordon Brown and the United Kingdom Government has allowed the notion 'This is an example why Scotland is stronger in the Union." to go on which suggests there was politcal objectives.
I also believe that the Lloyds-HBOS takeover, once successfully completed will required to be broken apart in the future. The sheer dominance of one company does go against competation and once the hardtimes passes, what can the Government say to justify this 'super' bank? I support the European takeover because I believe it will happen now or later.
How dare you attempt to paint the picture that I am anti-English. If I were anti-English, why would I support HBOS at all? Do you know what the 'H' stands for? Is that not based in England? Would that not suggest HBOS being Scottish and English instituations? If I were anti-English I would not support the Scottish National Party, are you really clueless to who actually support the Scottish National Party? They have supporters all over the United Kingdom. Actually, the Scottish National Party has strong support in London and the North of England I believe. Ah but I must be anti-English because I don't support the Lloyds TSB takeover... Please. I can't believe some continue to play the race card time and time again.
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Since the Clydesdale is owned by an Austrailian bank it shouldnt make to much difference who owns HBOS but the main point is that lots of jobs will have to go to make it viable. As it is im not with either of the 2 merging banks so it doesnt really affect me. As for if Scotland gets independence we will need a Scottish bank of our own and im sure something will be worked on as and when. Post offices should be kept open tho as these are vital in small communities but its obvious that Labour wants these closed as well.
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110. At 2:39pm on 01 Nov 2008, rabbiehippo wrote:
Since the Clydesdale is owned by an Austrailian bank it shouldnt make to much difference who owns HBOS but the main point is that lots of jobs will have to go to make it viable. As it is im not with either of the 2 merging banks so it doesnt really affect me. As for if Scotland gets independence we will need a Scottish bank of our own and im sure something will be worked on as and when. Post offices should be kept open tho as these are vital in small communities but its obvious that Labour wants these closed as well.
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How exactly do you start a bank. I'm not being sarcastic but do you not require a lot of capital? You cannot borrow billions surely?
As for Post Office closures. I do not like all the closures, however as well as Labour removing a lot of the business I do believe EU legislation had a hand it in as well. Something to do with competition laws I believe. Now that's ironic considering that if Lloyds merger does go ahead the EU will probably allow it.
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Thomas #109
I think you doth protest too much!!
I am not playing any race card (as you quaintly put it), I leave that to others more comfortable with it. I know full well what the "H" in HBOS stands for, it has been the constant griping from SNP supporters about the demise of the "Scottish" bank to English predators which makes me think that many of them don't. One minute it is a Scottish bank, the next it is not. Arguments seem to change to suit the situation, which is why a good many Scots are so suspicious of the SNP's real views and motives.
Instead of being so defensive (and aggressive) in your post, you would do well to re-read mine; nowhere did I accuse you personally of being anti-English - I was confused as to why you would support a bid from a "foreign", but unknown, institution in preference to a known and substantial British one. I still am. Once a company merger takes place, there is no legal mechanism to force it to break up - competition authorities only have power at the time of the merger, not afterwards. How do you think Microsoft and BP got so big? I agree that the government has political motives at play, but that is not in itself a reason to leave HBOS to a predictable fate if it is not rescued by somebody. As someone who is a small Lloyds shareholder, I have misgivings if the "rescue" entails my ceasing to receive dividends or suffer a dilution in my stake, but I can see the greater danger of HBOS failing, or being thrust upon the beleagured UK tax-payer.
As for SNP support in parts of England, that is only amongst those who are ex-patriot Scots who are so keen on Scottish indentity and independence that they choose not to live there, or English voters who see Scottish independence as the only realistic opportunity to obtain what the Scots already have -, political control over their own domestic affairs.
I have no personal animonsity towards you, Thomas, but many of your posts do seem to verge on the antagonistic towards anyone who does not agree with you and your political position. It is not so much your views with which I take issue (even though I do not share them) it is your abrasive debating style. As people of your generation say: chill out a bit.
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#105 Thomas_Porter
"I would be far more keen for HBOS to be bought over from our mysterious European bidders."
Absolutely, providing they don't already have a large high-street presence overlapping HBOS.
#102 rabbiehippo
Interesting list and ample evidence of why the competition aspects would have made anyone but NuLab think again.
#108 MalcolmW2
"Could you explain why that would be"
Thomas' #109 is a fair stab at it, but it's rabbie's #102 that is the key. It will be particularly bad for competition in Scotland, but do your sums for the rest of the UK and it will be much the same.
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#111 'How do you start a bank'.... how should i know .. i can hardly run my own finances let alone Scotlands. From what i understand you can borrow billions from the EU. Who would have thought you could package up all your dodgy sub prime loans and sell them to other banks ... but you could ! Labour seems to have money to lend to the banks where is that money coming from. Where exactly has HBOS gone wrong... Where has all their money gone....surely the USA cant be to blame for all this... some allies they are if thats the case.
As for the post offices .. i dont see the point in competition as the post office has the resources in place already for delivering the mail ... you cant tell me that another company could come in so you have 2 posties ... wouldnt make any sense.... no there was talk of some post offices being closed and WH Smiths being used with a post office bit attached ... sounds dodgy to me .
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#111 Neil_Small147
"As for Post Office closures. I do not like all the closures, however as well as Labour removing a lot of the business I do believe EU legislation had a hand it in as well. Something to do with competition laws I believe. Now that's ironic considering that if Lloyds merger does go ahead the EU will probably allow it."
Another perfect example of why the UK are such bad Europeans. It may be the letter of EU law that competition is needed in certain areas of post office services but the EU treaties are NOT suicide pacts. Travel on the by-ways in Belgium, France, Germany, Portugal or Spain and you'll still find post offices in almost every village. There is a huge amount of flexibility there if you look for it, something UK bureaucrats have never learned. The postal giro account in all of those places is still of key importance in bill payments, which perhaps helps them going, unlike the withdrawal of so many government payments from UK post offices which pull important sources of income away from them.
Both Tory and NuLab have been guilty over this, but the worst ravages have been on NuLab's watch.
Lord Mandy is by no means universally loved in the EU, and while your action plan theory may be true, Sarko may yet lead his other enemies to victory re EU competition law.
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#112 MalcolmW2
"I think you [Thomas] doth protest too much!!"
And I think you smirk too much - especially over competition and job losses in England.
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115. At 4:26pm on 01 Nov 2008, Brownedove
The post office unions are also partly responsible. A few years ago they refused point blank to accept certain new working practices - such as staying to the end of their shift so as to help with other work.
While unions have their place, some of them still seem to have the attitude of maximum pay for minimum work. It's not anywhere near as bad as during the 1970s, but elements still exist.
Perhaps someone should ask all the candidates at Glenrothes on their views towards unions.
114. At 4:07pm on 01 Nov 2008, rabbiehippo wrote:
#111 'How do you start a bank'.... From what i understand you can borrow billions from the EU.
I seriously hope that isn't the case. So a country borrows so many billions to start a bank. What happens if the financial industry in that country falls over? Who bails out the banks when the national bank is already in debt?
And bearing in mind that the IMF is now worried it does not have enough funds to bail out countries.
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Neil ... where are Lloyds getting their money to buy HBOS ? I see somebody else is putting forward a proposition. Surely a merger is not a good idea especially for Scotland or for the North of England for that matter. I know Gordon hasnt really got long left in power but HBOS have a few important PFI's that they are involved in and should these be halted it would look bad for Labour.
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#117 Neil_Small147
Fair point. My take is that they may be doing this more in Scotland with NuLab's connivance as a result of the secret funding discussions in Warwick.
Action in England or Wales would clearly embarrass NuLab much more than action against the SNP Scottish government.
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Even compared with other banks, HBOS shares have under-performed over past years and a big shake-up was anyway overdue. It was latterly run like the Mad Hatter's tea party, moreso than their competitors - too more emphasis on selling and not enough on banking. Dunno if we blame the H or the BOS....?
Advertisement! : Regarding comments about the Post Office, for many (20+?) years they've already had an agreement with a bank - anyone holding A&L plastic can deposit or withdraw cash at any Post Office.
Must admit, I'm pretty disillusioned with our once-famed Scottish finance "know-how"(?), now just a tarnished brand. After literally wasting millions on their de/mutual status debacle, Standard Life are now chopping terminal bonuses to policy holders.
Perhaps I should've put my money into Barclays or HSBC instead? Too late now....
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Neil and rabbie
I noted your discussion about an independent Scotland "needing a bank".
Within the Eurozone, national central banks are not the equivalent of the Bank of England - much more like the FSA.
Scotland will need a regulatory agency which will be a member of the European System of Central Banks (ESCB), but not a "bank" in the sense we think of it.
The RBS will still be headquartered in Edinburgh, and will continue to be a major international bank.
What we need, however, is a network of banks that can provide individuals and businesses with a competitive environment for credit facilities.
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Karl Marx had some interesting observations. This is him writing in 1858 on the UK in Ireland.
I especially like his opening sentence "A Government, representing, like the present British Ministry, a party in decay, will always better succeed in getting rid of its old principles, than of its old connections."
and his comment on the new Government of Lord Derby - The formation of the Derby Cabinet involved the consequence that all Government places should be divided among a motley crew still united by a party name which has become meaningless, and still marching under a banner torn to tatters, but in fact having nothing in common save reminiscences of the past, club intrigues, and, above all, the firm resolution to share together the loaves and fishes of office."
150 years on his remarks sound remarkably predictive!
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83
Infantile?
Whether Scotland has a bank that is wholly Scottish has no bearing whatsover on whether Scotland can be an independent country. All banking is international and all major banks operate and have divisions in many countries. There are, for instance several Arab banks based in the UK and one of the Icelandic banks which went down due to Gordon Brown illegally seizing its assets was British owned.
Perhaps this is being confused with the concept of a "national Bank" which is a function of national goverment and is set up to issue currency notes, set national interest rates for instance and regulate commercial banking.
We probably are now regretting Gordon Brown freeing the Bank of England from government control and abandoning bank regulation. The Bank of England, of course, is not a high street bank. It is an institution.
Alex Salmond has made a particular point of heaping praise on the honourable behaviour of Lloyds TSC while deploring the speculators and the almost criminal bad banking practice which have brought our banking systen to its knees. At no point has he slagged off the main players. That also was an infantile remark.
I could go back over weeks of other infantile assertions by a wide variety of ill informed unionist posters who's belief in the union is quite evidently based on a myriad of quite incredible misconceptions in which they are encouraged to believe by unscrupulous elements which control our popular press.
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#122 oldnat
Thanks for that. Why on earth haven't you posted that on the NR thread, too.
Mods seem to be going slow, so I'll take a break for a while.
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Would it be better to merge RBS and HBOS?
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#124 Brownedov
Your wish is my command!
(actually I had to go and make dinner)
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#125 Anaxim
I suspect that this would have been even worse in terms of anti-competitiveness.
However, if RBS hadn't over-extended themselves buying ABN AMRO (part of which they are now selling off) I'm sure that they would be in the market for it.
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#126 oldnat
Thanks. I don't imagine pttp or carrots will be too interested, but it might just make a few of the non-Tories think a little.
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123. At 7:40pm on 01 Nov 2008, sneckedagain wrote:
83
Infantile?
I was referring to you resorting to personal attacks and stating that anyone who supports the union is thick.
I'm perfectly aware that the Bank of England is an institution, and that Scotland would have to issue its own currency.
Or will mean the Euro? Will the Scottish Government allow a referendum on that?
And has anyone got any idea who this potential bidder for HBOS is yet?
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As there doesn't seem to be any poll data for Glenrothes, I went to see for myself and try and make out what is happening.
Loud talk in the pub about it'll always be Labour but no-one agreeing. A torrent of bumph from the SNP and impressive footfall by their activists. The tory and lib-dem are hanging in there but no-one seems to be taking their chances seriously.
The raising of care charges is playing badly for the SNP. Nobody seems to know much or care much about the banks but there is a sense of if Gordon Brown has saved us why did he not see it coming.
It is not a compact constituency like Glasgow East, even Glenrothes itself is quite widely spaced so a lot is going to be down to the party that knows who its supporters are and gets them to the polls on the day. In that respect the SNP are ahead with an impressive effort in door to door canvassing but whether they will get the manpower on the day with all the transport that will be needed, who knows?
At present the forecast is "light rain" and not cold but with sunrise at 0720 and sunset at 1620 there will be a lot of folk having to vote in the dark so turnout is bound to be down.
End result; I still haven't a clue. 50/50 but with a leaning to SNP as there were people with their posters in the window in Methil, for heavens sake. They used to weigh the ballot boxes from there in the old days!
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#129 Neil_Small147
the Euro? Will the Scottish Government allow a referendum on that?
Someone (was it you?) asked that question recently.
The answer remains the same - it would no doubt depend on which party/parties was/were the Scottish Government.
However, you know perfectly well that it is a silly question under the current Constitutional settlement.
If we get to the stage of independence, then it is current SNP policy that Scotland enters the eurozone. Consequently, it is likely to be part of the "package" that we vote on.
If you want to have separate referenda on each clause of the settlement, then I think you'll find few supporters.
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Brownedov and Oldnat
I understand from reading both your many informative posts that you are both in favour of fiscal autonomy, if not full indpendence, for Scotland; and also that you would prefer a decentralised form of government.
A couple of things concern me and I'd appreciate your thoughts:
1. A fiscally autonomous Scottish parliament I believe could better meet the needs of Scotland. However as some have pointed out (and I know sneckedagain refuted this), will it be a case for those living in the remotest parts of Scotland that they are swapping one centralised government in Westminster for one in Edinburgh? I appreciate that you have to start somewhere and that a centralised Edinburgh parliament is in most respects better than one in Westminster, if not the ideal scenario. Excuse my ignorance, hailing as I do from the central belt and having never lived in these areas myself, but I'm left wondering if these communities would benefit from the change.
2. A centralised parliament in Edinburgh as a start is acceptable, but am I correct in saying you are both in favour of local government having substantially more powers than at present? Essentially a federal system, with the Edinburgh parliament in the role of 'Washington' and the councils in the role of the 'states'.
My concern is does this not increase the number of competent officials required to administer each council (which are hard enough to find at national level!), with the additional cost, and also the opportunity for further corruption.
Maybe I'm too sceptical, and although I have heard the arguement that the more accountable local officials are the better it will be, are these officials prepared for such positions of responsibilty? Personally I think the decentralised system sounds best in theory, but in practice I have my doubts.
Like a now discredited system of government, its the failings of the people within the system that causes the system to fail.
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#132 ScotInNotts
At nearly midnight CET it's too late for me to answer sensibly on this. I'll sleep on it and respond tomorrow.
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#132 ScotInNotts
Wow! You're asking for an outline of a political philosophy which I've been developing for 40+ years, but especially during the last few months, when I've had to take on board a lot of reasonable points from northighlander and the rest of the reasonable posters on this blog, who come from a different perspective.
That's why I like blogs - they force me to challenge (and change) some of my ideas.
I have no fixed views on which powers should lie with local government. In fact I totally dislike what both Labour and Tory Governments have done in enforcing their ideologically determined systems of LG across the country - largely ignoring local identities, geographies and wealth.
I think you are right that it is often "the failings of the people within the system that causes the system to fail" - but the problem lies with the officials more than the Councillors.
Requiring Scotland to find 32 good Directors of Education, Finance, Housing, Social Work etc I think is silly in a country with only 5 million people.
The Concordat with COSLA seems to me to be the starting point for a reasonable arrangement. At national level agreed outcomes with LAs are arranged, but how these are achieved is not a matter for Edinburgh politicians to micro-manage. Indeed, if rural areas decide to have smaller local authorities using Joint Boards, that's a matter for them.
I probably haven't answered your points, so feel free to come back at me.
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#132 ScotInNotts
Another thought - in an independent Scotland, a unicameral Parliament doesn't suit us best.
While I'm a fan of minority government, it's still possible for a majority of MSPs from the Central belt to push through ill-thought out legislation which disadvantages the areas outwith the Central Belt.
I wouldn't want to increase the overall numbers of politicians, but something like a Senate, which represented the regions of Scotland, as a revising chamber - delaying powers but not able to overthrow the decisions of Parliament would be worth consideration - a cross between the House of Lords and the US Senate.
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As if we weren't already fairly sure that the HBOS/Lloyds merger was political Murphy deliberately tries to spike any alternative.
Brown's choice of a "running mate" in Scotland was clearly as flawed as McCain's choice (though Palin is funnier).
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#112
MalcolmW2.
"I am not playing any race card (as you quaintly put it), I leave that to others more comfortable with it."
You have played the race card. You brought up anti-English rubbish.
"I know full well what the "H" in HBOS stands for, it has been the constant griping from SNP supporters about the demise of the "Scottish" bank to English predators which makes me think that many of them don't. One minute it is a Scottish bank, the next it is not. Arguments seem to change to suit the situation, which is why a good many Scots are so suspicious of the SNP's real views and motives."
Let's set one thing straight. The views of SNP supporters does not mean the SNP have the same views. Those supporters can claim what they want but they do not represent the SNP. I am an actual member of the SNP but even I would never speak for the SNP. I will leave that to the actual SNP members in power who know what they are talking about.
"Instead of being so defensive (and aggressive) in your post, you would do well to re-read mine; nowhere did I accuse you personally of being anti-English."
You wrote. "It can't surely be because anybody but an "English" bank would be preferable? I rather suspect that this would be the position of many an SNP supporter, which rather gives the lie to the SNP not being an anti-English party."
You attempted to link the SNP to an anti-English since SOME of us do not support the merger or in my case would favour a different bid. I was defensive and aggressive because I felt offended from even the slightest indication that you were making.
"I was confused as to why you would support a bid from a "foreign", but unknown, institution in preference to a known and substantial British one. I still am."
It's not foreign in my eyes. It's European. I would not suggest I am one hundred percent for the European bid because I would have to compare both of the bids but I would prefer the European bid to come out best. It really depends how many jobs will be lost at the end of the day.
"As for SNP support in parts of England, that is only amongst those who are ex-patriot Scots who are so keen on Scottish indentity and independence that they choose not to live there, or English voters who see Scottish independence as the only realistic opportunity to obtain what the Scots already have -, political control over their own domestic affairs."
Perhaps you can show your evidence? I believe this to be more opinion then fact.
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Usual misleading Herald headline Support for independence in decline.
There seems to be a new System 3 poll, though the Herald seems only to want to release selective details before Glenrothes.
Any change in the number supporting independence is actually within the margin of error for polls.
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Labour's Scotland Act seems to have been a legal screw up.
In their determination to push Westminster models on to Scotland, they made a major mistake with the role of the Lord Advocate.
Only Westminster can solve the problem under the Scotland Act - any bets on Westminster giving the time?
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#138
Oldnat.
Interesting poll.
I quite like this paragraph.
"Labour believe the economic crisis has highlighted the financial safety net offered by the union and made people less willing to support independence."
I do believe Labour have no clue what they are talking about. Scotland does not have a safety net. Scotland is trapped in a net and is forced to accept the worst that the London Government can come up with.
Having to spend the next several generations paying back what the London Goverment has borrowed is not a safety net at all...
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Rangers Chairman supports the Union!
In an astonishing interview with SoS, David Murray revealed "I am not political, but I strongly believe in the continuance of the Union."
Who would have guessed it? Supporting the UK Union is a non-political stance!
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It's 1am so this might be a bit disjointed (and no I'm not drunk nor do I dabble with various substances)
Reading through the latest posts a few things come to mind.
oldnat, you mentioned that joining the Euro may form part of an independence referendum. I don't know, since Europe is a minefield for all political parties, and I do not doubt the SNP are any different. People may be in favour of independence but not the Euro. Tricky one, since the pro-Europeans who are unionist might try and sneak in a Euro-only question. But that's me being cynical.
#140 thomas
"Scotland does not have a safety net". That is true, and it is also true an independent Scotland would not have one for some time, if any. It is a question that must be addressed.
Glenrothes is a good one to try and predict. I rarely trust polls, since the numbers are never normally high enough to be accurate.
Still four whole days to go, lots can happen then.
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142 Neil_Small147
The SNP gave up the idea of an independent Scottish currency a long time ago.
For a while they suggested sticking with sterling (always seemed to me to be a really stupid idea!)
Realistically, if Scotland is to be Independent in Europe, then our currency will be the euro.
The anti-Europe movement seems to me to be primarily "British" - though I recognise that the Common Fisheries Policy may cause problems in the North-East (i don't know if that is the case or not).
Brown was against the euro primarily because it limited his belief in the "post neo-classical endogenous growth theory" (which actually means your economy doesn't need to make anything - just rely on financial derivatives).
Why would anyone want to cling on to a sterling as a reserve currency which relied on derivatives for its strength?
I know you are open-minded about the political future, but I do urge you to accept European Unionism and then consider Scotland's place within the EU.
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#141
Read the article, couldn't believe what I was reading. Not political, just strongly believe in the union, what a confused man.
Obviously a very astute business man to be as successful as he's been, making some very insincere statements. I'll leave the obvious views of the club he owns aside.
He's also very very confused as regards:
"The Rangers chairman suggested that an independent Scotland would struggle to land major Ministry of Defence contracts such as the aircraft carrier order, which will support more than 3,000 jobs at BAE's Govan and Scotstoun yards in Glasgow, and sustain 1,600 jobs at Babcock Marine's naval dockyard at Rosyth on the Firth of Forth.
"There has to be a question mark over the placement of the military work and the jobs there," Murray said."
Did he think these yards were just handed this contract because we're in the union? No they had to bid for it internationally just like every other company, being part of the UK had nothing to do with it!
Cost, expertise and facilties were why BAE and Vospers, now BVT, were awarded this contract. BAE are an international company, why have they chosen to own Scottish yards? As the skills and facilities are there for the right price thats why, and thats why they would continue to land orders, having survived for the last 30 years when shipbuiling in the UK was in severe decline.
Guaranteed, if Scotland were independent and Scotland or England still required military craft they woud still be built in Scotland, again for the reasons above (oh, and yes I know Vospers is in Portsmouth!).
#133 brownedov
look forward to it tomorrow
#134 #135 oldnat
liked brownedov I'll need to digest what you've said and get back to you. Cheers for the response.
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ScottInNotts #144
Your comments ref David Murray, who isn't actually as confused as you think.
"Did he think these yards were just handed this contract because we're in the union? No they had to bid for it internationally just like every other company, being part of the UK had nothing to do with it!"
Don't want to see you digging yourself into a great big hole here. In fact under the terms of EU rules (296), member-states' defence contracts are specifically EXCLUDED from EU anti-competition legislation.
Placement of military contracts is entirely at the whim of the respective customer (i.e. that member-state's own government), irrespective of any other deal that might've been offered from elsewhere.
Can you imagine the domestic political ramifications facing ANY nation's goverment that decided to outsource its own miltary hardware contracts whilst also having the capability to produce its own? Rather than imagine, amongst many examples take a look at Heseltine and the Westland Affair, or way back, Healey and TSR2.
So regarding all those thousands of Scottish jobs you mention? (and your figure of 4600 would be an absolute minimum - check the number of UK defence contractors in Scotland). The answer is yes, being part of the UK had everything to do with it!
Of course, companies in an independent Scotland might still be invited to tender. However, being cynical, that could just be for price-comparison purposes before awarding the contract elsewhere, but perhaps (in the case of BAE and BVT etc) albeit even with Scottish sub-contractors.
It would indeed be a very brave government that handed jobs to a neighbour, yet whilst also having a large -and voting!- home-based skillforce of its own.
And as we know, whatever their colours or nationality, governments are seldom brave; expedient, sometimes yes but brave, no.
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#136 oldnat
Good link, and interesting to see the top news story in the Herald isn't rabidly pro-union. They've even switched comments back on - 127 since just before midnight.
Re Palin, the best comment I've heard to date was from Sandi Toksvig on The News Quiz of 24 October: "It's so difficult to know whether you don't want her to be elected because, you know, you want the world to survive or how hilarious the last five minutes will be".
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#138 oldnat
Thanks for the poll tip. There's a potentially more interesting one in their Labour edging by-election, says poll which puts on a very different spin to the Scottish Sunday Express who actually commissioned the poll. See their: Poll puts Brown on Brink.
While they quote the same figures as the Herald, they say: "Crucially, though, almost 25 per cent of voters are still undecided - with indications that as many as two-thirds of these are Labour supporters ready to support the Nationalists."
There's also a good quote from Salmond: "Gordon Brown put this by-election off for as long as he could, and I think that decision will come back to haunt him, as voters are reminded that Labour have done nothing to help bring down energy costs."
Perhaps their anti-Labour stance has got the better of their unionism for once. They do have a puff for the Tories' Golden, suggesting he may sneak into 3rd place.
Unfortunately, they don't show any details or even the polling organisation as yet.
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Re defence contracts.
Defence contracts are awarded with a bit of political bias, in order to keep people happy.
But if Scotland is independent, will the Scottish Government, assuming it is the SNP, refuse to take on any work that is nuclear related? I refer of course to submarines, not missile subs but hunter killers.
Defence contracts would be limited in Scotland anyway, since most of the major work for aircraft and vehicles is carried out in England and Wales. It would be wise to hang on to whatever work is available.
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PS to my #147
UK Polling Report's Does the Express show Labour ahead in Glenrothes? makes similar criticisms, and conclude with: "There is a good reason why, despite the public stereotype, political polls are not actually conducted by people with clipboards in shopping centres. Dismiss."
Not sure I'd go quite that far as there is some evidence that the race is now a little tighter than expected, but as the previous poll from six weeks ago still isn't attributed or detailed then we can't place any reliance on either claims.
Off out for a while but will return this afternoon to try to respond to ScotInNotts' #132.
The NR thread seems to be back to unionist infighting and might reach 1000 again today without anyone having much serious to say.
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The Scottish Sunday Express poll would indicate to me that with the Tories on 4 and the Lib - Dems on 2 percent, people have realized that they would be wasting votes. So it looks like the undecided are possibly dissillusioned voters from Labour, Tories and Libs. Its would be a shame if people voted for any of the minority candidates as that would be a waste and what good would that do. I hope the good folks of Glenrothes can see that they are being spun the same old rubbish..... ' we are the only party that can get us through the financial turmoil' blah blah blah ...
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'I think people understand that we cant solve this problem by walking away like the SNP.They have made all the wrong judgements on all the wrong policy decisions about major issues affecting our country' oh but he didnt say what the SNP had walked away from ... maybe somebody can elighten me ??
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In yesterdays Sun ' Barclays sparked a storm last night by raising 7.3 billion from Arabs '......... wheres Gordon today .. away asking the very same people to invest in our country !!!
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My #149 has been referred to the mods for some reason - perhaps I messed up the link to UK Polling Report's "Does the Express show Labour ahead in Glenrothes?" where they demolish it.
See http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/archives/1576
Off out now, so will get back to ScotInNotts this afternoon.
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#148 Neill_Small147
Looking to the future rather than the past, I cannot but observe that this whole defence-procurement angle is something that I would not rely on heavily if I were a British Unionist, as the European Defence Agency of the European Union has been established to rationalize all of that ultimately on an EU-wide basis, while moves are afoot to cause defence gradually to become increasingly an EU-controlled function despite UK opposition to this.
The defence angle, therefore, may be expected to come increasingly to favour the case for independent Scottish membership of the EU, which is how Scotland will eventually be able to expect to get a fair share of what is on offer rather than as a member of the anachronistic British Union, the defence forces of which are painfully overstretched and ill equipped by a state the economy of which is itself becoming increasingly ill equipped to meet its rather extensive and ambitious commitments.
The future is one of large-scale defence and defence-procurement arrangements within the European Union. Small states such as the UK need to recognize their limitations, swallow their pride and step into line with other EU states. British delusions of grandeur will not protect us. Nor will they be able to resist the tide of supranationalist EU progress indefinitely.
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#154 'Supranationalist ' .... supra ...thats a whole level above super is it ....Scotland and the pick of Destiny lol
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Scotland has enjoyed less than 4% of defence procurement inthe last 30 years when it should be enjoying around 9% on a population share.
The two aircraft carriers don't make a lot of difference to this and are in my opinion a huge waste of public finances as they are window dressing for a position on the world stage that UK doesn't need and can't afford.
The aircraft carrier work that is being done in Scotland couldn't be done anywhere in UK anyway so there was no doubt where this work was coming to when the decision was made to build these ships.
An independent Scotland with huge oilfields and huge fishing grounds and the control of strategically important areas of the north Atlantic would have a efficient modern navy of fast small ships (and no expensive and completely uneccesary aircraft carriers ).
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@#148
Sir, whilst I recognise the importance of defence contracts for the various employers we have in Scotland, nonetheless I feel that in an independent Scotland, assisting in the manufacture of nuclear weaponry, or the outfitting of vessels that are used for such purposes is a moral and ethical wrong. There are more important things than money.
On an aside, since it has been official UK Govt. policy since at least the 1950's o deny contracts to the Scottish shipyards in preference to the English ones, because "We don't want Glasgow being the Empire's second city, now do we?", I think with the freshness of thinking that inevitably will arrive with independence, we can rebuild the industries to a degree, taking on contracts that previously would have gone elsewhere due to the UK Govt's "help".
On a further note, I personally see nothing wrong with participating in nuclear-powered vessel outfiting/building. Whilst I don't think we should have nuclear power here in Scotland (the costs & risks outweigh the benefits since we're already an energy exporter), if another nation wants a dinghy that glows, good for them, we can help them build it. Just as long as they don't carry nuclear weaponry.
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As I've said before, there's very little future for the Scottish shipyards in an independent Scotland, without the UK defence contracts. The SNP say the shipyards are 'world class', but when a nationalist calls something world-beating, it's very often not. Objectively, the yards compare poorly with the gigantic facilities in places like South Korea.
Shipbuilding is a fiercely cyclical business at the best of times, and it's about to enter the mother of all downturns. This will be prolonged by subsidies, which an independent Scotland is unlikely to be able to afford.
Note I'm dissatisfied with the naval contracts as they stand. The new aircraft carriers are not going to be nuclear-powered, severely limiting their effectiveness in a scenario where oil is scarce. The Type 45 destroyer is a terribly limited fighting machine regardless of the situation.
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156. At 11:57am on 02 Nov 2008, sneckedagain
An independent Scotland with huge oilfields and huge fishing grounds and the control of strategically important areas of the north Atlantic would have a efficient modern navy of fast small ships (and no expensive and completely uneccesary aircraft carriers ).
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You would also need an Air Force. That would be a critical part of the structure.
One tiny little issue. Assuming Scotland gets its navy, what will happen to current personnel serving in the RN? And with regards to retired Armed Forces personnel, specifically those who are due a pension to start within the next 20 years (following on from the redundancies during Options for Change), who exactly will pay for these? And will a Scottish Government provide the same levels of benefit (ie index linked) as the UK would?
On the fishing issue, what happens with the current mess with EU about fishing rights etc? Has that even been sorted out?
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#159 Neil_Small147 & #156sneckedagain
I'm with Supranationalist on this.
Lets have European procurement, a European Defence Force, structured in such a way that individual nations provide units appropriately.
With the Faroes Gap as an important strategic location, it makes sense for Europe to have Scotland provide significant naval provision, whose peace time role would include fishery and rig protection as well as search and rescue.
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Neil_Small147:
I would assume that current military personnel would have the choice to continue or transfer to the Scottish Military.
The British Government would continue to pay the pensions of those who served with the British Army. The Scottish Government would then take responsibility for those who have transfered to the Scottish Military. By the way I am not one hundred percent sure on this issue but a soldier can claim an Army Pension once they turn forty years old. I'm not sure if you were aware of that.
"On the fishing issue, what happens with the current mess with EU about fishing rights etc? Has that even been sorted out?"
I saw Alex Salmond in an interview and got the impression that if the European Union does not clean up her act over Fishing Right, then Scotland will not bother with the European Union.
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#132 ScotInNotts
First, if you've ready many of my posts, you'll know I'm a fan of Switzerland's Direct Democracy because it's the citizen who has political power instead of the parties. On rural matters, I would particularly point to: "The Swiss constitution may be changed only if an overall majority of the electorate agrees in a referendum and if the electorate of a majority of the cantons agrees, too. The latter is sometimes just a little more difficult because it means that the rather conservative electorate of smaller rural cantons must be convinced as well".
It's mainly for those reasons that although Switzerland was early in EFTA and the EEA, it doesn't yet have the consensus to join the EU, although its recent joining of the UN was seen locally as a big step in that direction. In Scotland, such safeguards would protect the rural areas. It makes things happen rather slower than many would like, but when change does occur it's ratchet-like in moving ever-forward.
Demographically, Scotland and Switzerland are broadly comparable, but rural sparsity is significantly more marked in Scotland:
- Area: 78,782 vs 41,285 sq.km
- Population: 5.1 vs 7.6 million
- Governance: 32 councils vs 26 cantons
Where they differ greatly is in natural resources. Abundant hydropower is common to both, but although solar and wind based schemes are being developed, Scotland has many more, which perhaps explains why Scotland is nearly a century behind Switzerland in electrifying its railways. To unify their country and connect areas separated by major geographical barriers, the Swiss constructed many railways and associated tunnels around the turn of the 19th/20th century and motorways and associated tunnels around the turn of the 20th/21st. Such federal projects are still moving forward.As Switzerland's Political System and Government explains, "Being member of parliament is not a full-time job in Switzerland (at least they are not paid accordingly ...). Formally, parliament meets four times a year for several weeks. In between, each member has to read proposals for new laws individually and to attend one-day conferences of commissions". Similar arrangements apply to Cantonal and Communal governance and joint ventures between cantons are common, especially between the smaller, German-speaking cantons. There are very few "career" politicians in Switzerland.
The Swiss system works extremely well because the average citizen is honest, thrifty, intelligent, well-educated and has a sense of social responsibility. That doesn't strike me as so different to the average Scot.
Where I tend to differ from oldnat is that I'm rather keener on retaining a much looser UK structure, mainly for economy of scale and to provide a revising chamber for all four "home" nations - again on economic grounds. OTOH, I have only to spend a few hours on the NR threads watching mainly two flavours of Tory nitpicking over who "does" Tory most effectively and the idea of independence within the EU seems like sweet reason.
Not exactly a direct reply to your questions but probably the best I can do for now.
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156 sneckedagain
"The aircraft carrier work that is being done in Scotland couldn't be done anywhere in UK anyway..."
Eh? So we're doing work that cannot be done? Or have we already left the UK?
and
"Scotland has enjoyed less than 4% of defence procurement in the last 30 years ..."
I'd guess that home-grown UK defence procurement must've diminished radically over the past 30 years.
But if your figure of 4% of total procurement is correct, that sounds VERY healthy! As follows:
Consider the vast majority of the hi-tech (equals : extremely expensive) hardware items are manufactured outwith the UK, such as Boeing Sentry AEW, Trident System, C-17s and Chinooks etc, all from the USA. Then the Tucanos were licence-built from Bazil in NI. Major chunks of the Typhoon Eurofighter are supplied from mainland Europe. Various "sundry" missile systems of all types. All those items combine to a huge sum of money, deducted from the overall defence procurement budget.
Yet despite those massive amounts going overseas, you say we in Scotland yet still manage to achieve a 4% figure from the original budget total, skimmed off the top.
Me? I'd call that 4% not a bad day's work, by any means.
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161. At 2:25pm on 02 Nov 2008, Thomas_Porter wrote:
By the way I am not one hundred percent sure on this issue but a soldier can claim an Army Pension once they turn forty years old. I'm not sure if you were aware of that.
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No, you must have served on a pensionable engagement (22 years for all three branches) to qualify. If you were made redundant whilst serving on such an engagement you do not normally receive your pension until you turn 60. However there are many complex rules on this as it depends at what year of service you were made redundant.
A European Defence Force is not the way forward. It is for humanitarian missions, but I think there are certain forces who want NATO disbanded. Perhaps NATO has served its purpose, but the French have always done things there own way. Another issue is nuclear weapons. The French will not give up theirs, and neither will the UK. The world has yet to grow up so they are still required as a deterrent.
You can also get conflicts of interest. The Falklands is an example. Spain and Portugal would be torn between supporting the UK or Argentina should a future conflict ever arise.
And what of countries that are historically neutral? They do have standing armies but they are going to allow them to be used outwith UN missions? I'm not talking about Iraq or Afghanistan.
#162 Browndove.
I think the Swiss have always had the advantage of being surrounded by mountains. Plus they have rather different banking laws to us. They managed to avoid war, which has saved them rather a lot of money. The UK is still paying off the interest on some loans as it is cheaper!
Wonder what bank they went to........
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#164 Neil_Small147
I agree that the Swiss have a few advantages, although much over their borders are a bit more porous than you suggest - particularly with Germany in the North and France around Geneva - very useful to escaping POWs in WW2.
Certainly keeping out of wars has been useful both to them and to the combatent nations - that someone visits POWs and ensures fair treatment of them is essential, I think.
OTOH they don't have useful amounts of coal, oil or other minerals and have no coastline for sea fishing and trade, although there is some international barge traffic on the Rhine.
Ultimately, as a democrat, I would accept the people's choice of the polity they want. What irks me is that they've never been asked.
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#164.
Neil_Small147.
Like I said I am not one hundred percent certain on the Army Pension issue. I have heard from my Recruitment Officer who retired recently is able to claim an Army Pension, besides also receiving 40 or 60 grand for his 22 year service. Quite lovely.
"A European Defence Force is not the way forward."
Why not? I would have thought one united front against an invader would be better rather then fighting as individuals.
The problem with NATO is quite simple. Each member is capable of 'doing their own things' as you said. I would prefer to disban NATO or at least modernise NATO. How Germany and France can get away with sending less soldiers to Afganistan then Britain is beyond me.
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#153 Brownedov
Not only was the poll rubbish as was pointed out, but any poll carried out in a Shopping Centre will, almost certainly, have oversampled mothers - the very group I had suggested would be more susceptible to the crisis situation.
Under these circumstances, the small "lead" by Labour seems rather small.
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#167 oldnat
I rather agree. I reported the existence of the poll in my spirit of upright honesty but only found the UK Polling Report comment on it later. I might check that first in future.
I don't get paranoid about referrals like some, as I know that technical errors can creep into the HTML as easily as into the spelling, but I'm a little mystified as to why my #149 was referred - when it's bad HTML it usually comes back with a "Broken Link" or similar message embedded in it.
Another long day for the mods, I suspect.
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163
Should have read "anywhere else"
4% is less than half of what our population should entitle us too and exactly the same situation prevails with all other government procurement programmes which hugely benefit the SE of England.
It's called the "union dividend" but we're not the ones collecting it.
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#167 oldnat - PS to my #168
Trouble is that unionist media will still use bad data to muddy the waters. STV now report the poll but none of the criticisms on their Poll shows Labour ahead in Glenrothes.
In the story, they refer to it as a "survey" rather than an opinion poll, but clearly few will know the difference.
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Having just chastised STV, their Third possible bid for HBOS is much more balanced, including an interview with Spowart and reporting of the calls for Murphy's resignation.
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I never understand polls, and I'm an analyst!
But it is very easy using one set of data to present differing sets of results. Normally it's different forms of analysis, but presentation is the key for politics.
Any competent politician can make something bad look good. A recent example is the defence minister poo-pooing the comments made by a resigning officer about poor equipment. The minister said "everyone was happy" on his recent visit. But put a senior politician with a group of soldiers and they will say everything is ok, since there will be the odd general or two nearby.
Whoever loses Glenrothes will make it sound good. Well, Alex Salmond will, since it is highly unlikely Labour will retain it's majority, so Alex can safely say they fought a good campaign but despite losing, ate into the majority. (Heaven help him if Labour has a majority in excess of 9,000!).
What exactly Gordon Brown will say if he loses is another matter.
Perhaps we should have a caption competition for this.
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sneckedagain 169
Did you actually read my 163? Do the math. To keep it straightforward let's just say the UK defence procurement budget total is (an absurdly low) £100m. Then let's guess low, say 65%, of that goes to the USA and Europe etc, in payment for all that expensive heavy duty, hi-tech stuff. That leaves £35m, but you say we got 4% off the top. So the final balance is 31%/£31m for division bewteen England, Wales and NI. Even assuming we're due a higher Scottish figure of 10% (rather than your 8%) of gross, that's only 3.5. Yet you say we take 4.0, which is actually higher than a proportional share.
In fact, upon reflection, firstly considering all that loot going abroad, then adding the aircraft carriers (a hugely expensive outlay) being built here, I'd have thought your 4% of total is low. Just out of interest, could you tell me the source of that figure? Thanks.
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#172 Neil_Small147
"What exactly Gordon Brown will say if he loses is another matter.
Perhaps we should have a caption competition for this"
What a superb idea!
None of my first ideas, however, would get past the mods.
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#172 Neil_Small147
"Perhaps we should have a caption competition for this."
Great idea! I'll certainly try to have one ready, but shan't start counting chickens just yet.
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Planejock
I did read your post.
Scotland has averaged less than 4% of the defence procurement spending in the UK.
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I thought some fairness should be applied re a caption competition.
Labour lose the seat:
"We lost due to global problems, not just national. And we are the best party to regain the seat. Over to you, Darling."
Assuming Labour win with a thumping majority (I know, flying pigs etc), how would Alex respond.
"This would never have happened in an independent Scotland."
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Gordon Brown: *Flaps arms in the air in victory. Peter Grant takes wins the seat.*
Alistar Darling: Peter Grant was not our candidate!
Gordon Brown: Yes, but the lesser of two evils.
;-)
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177. At 7:57pm on 02 Nov 2008, Neil_Small147.
GOOD IDEA.
BROWN - i am resigning as prime miniter as i wish to spend more time with my young family.
SALMOND - i want a recount as nulab received 950 votes from a jersey business man.
sorry about the typing error in 2nd suggestion. should be notes.
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177.Neil_Small147 wrote:
I thought some fairness should be applied re a caption competition.
Labour lose the seat:
"We lost due to global problems, not just national. And we are the best party to regain the seat. Over to you, Darling."
His wife or the chancellor?
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GORDON BROWN - well thats LINDSAY ROYs retirement fund of 500,000 pounds expences down the shute.
ALEX SALMOND - forget glenrothes, our real target is kirkaldy.
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#177 Neil_Small147
GB - I can't understand it; I went there and listened and they told me exactly what I wanted to hear.
AS - We couldn't get our voters out; the blue body paint runs in the wet.
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I note the impartial BBC has 'Gordon Brown campaigns in Glenrothes' plastered on the front page.
Must be an authorised press release from the Kremlin-on-the-Clyde.
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#177 Neil_Small147
OK, as others wish to, I'll play.
Lab lose - Brown: "The terrorist Grant was convicted of high treason this morning in a hearing necessarily closed due to national security and all votes have been fairly allocated to Mr Roy."
SNP lose - Salmond: "Fooled you! Having placed the entire Scottish budget on Labour to win at 5 to 1 last August, I shall be retiring to spend more time with Sean Connery."
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Lab lose - Brown: All funding for Fife has been cut to zero
SNP lose - Salmond: All funding for Fife has been cut to zero
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Labour Looses - Gordon Brown: Has anybody got 3 billion to spare for the people of Glenrothes?
SNP looses - Alex Salmond: (I don't think we will find Alex for several days if the SNP looses)
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Could be a good time for Bighullabaloo
to return?
He must be on the edge, at this moment.
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The following is a copy of #516. At 9:13pm on 02 Nov 2008, power_to_the_ppl wrote:
Glenrothes: Internal Minutes Show Scottish Labour in Disarray
Well worth a look if you don't normally frequest the NR threads.
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Lab lose - Brown: People thought I was McCain
SNP lose - Salmond: People didn't realise I was Obama
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Brown loses
Oh well thats just another to add to the long list of loses, now where did I leave my memory stick.
Alex loses
I am lost it must of been all that 5000 extra postal votes.
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Republicans lose - McCain : I blame Gordon Brown
Democrats lose - Obama : I blame Gordon Brown
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New Polling Shock
Oh sorry, that's New Zealand
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sneckedagain 176
My 173 said: " I'd have thought your 4% of total is low. Just out of interest, could you tell me the source of that figure? Thanks."
. . . ?
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The conservatives would create all the condition of a recession by choice, high unemployment and low investment in local services.
The consevative party dont need a recession to implement their plan.
So it's clear, the conservative's and the nationalist share the same economic agenda.
And they(snp) wonder why the people of Glenrothes will reject-them.
Two years in and the Scottish executive has crumbled/
Fragmented by the lack of economic vision.
The tale of two parties(snp cons) with the
the thatcher touch, has been exposed and the good people of Glenrothes can be sure that under labour their health care and local services are best protected.
Here endith the lesson.....nats.....
The young buck...Is no, match for the wise owl......Twit...tawooooooo......
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Salmond and his flotilla are heading for Iceland to form the next Icelandic government and of course, that famous Norwegian King penguin, will be the deputy to AS.
They have an Igloo plan? mortgages on ice!
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Gordon Brown: "The policies we have applied for eleven years have provided continuous growth and low inflation, with families now...............ad infinitum"
Alex Salmond: "The policies we have applied for eleven months have provided continuous growth and low inflations, with families now...............ad infinitum"
David Cameron: "The policies we have developed for eleven years will provide continuous growth and low inflations, with families now...............ad infinitum"
Nick Clegg: "nnnn"
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#194 derekbarker
"Twit"
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Who's going to tell derek that penguins come from the Antarctic (not Edinburgh Zoo, or Batman movies)?
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LABOUR LOSE.
GORDON BROWN SAYS ;-
its all derekbarker and expats fault.
SNP LOSE.
ALEX SALMOND SAYS :-
thank goodness derekbarker and expat was on nulabs side or the majority would have more than 1.
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#194.
Barker.
"The conservatives would create all the condition of a recession by choice, high unemployment and low investment in local services.
So it's clear, the conservative's and the nationalist share the same economic agenda."
Perhaps you could provide evidence to support your comment. I would be interested to see where you came to the conclusion that the Scottish National Party 'encourages' high unemployment along with low investment for local services.
"And they(snp) wonder why the people of Glenrothes will reject-them."
It would do your credibility well not to post this type of hype. Labour and the Scottish National Party have fought a long campaign and either side are capable of winning at this moment of time. If the Scottish National Party win, what will you do? Change your username or simply avoid the Blog for one week or two?
"Glenrothes can be sure that under labour their health care and local services are best protected."
This could not be easier. How do you expect Labour to continue providing the same standard of Health Care and Local Services when under Labour we spend more then we generate annually, we are sinking into debt that the next two generations will be paying and that depends on if the Tories manage to get into power and stop Labour's spending plans...
I do not expect you to reply.
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What a right Clegg-on: he is indeed Neil!
Federalism in the lib/dem camp is dead,
the sdp part of that party, no longer talk about Europe and decentralisations.
The 3 oppositions parties have all been fooled by the thatcherite mode of economics.
Fool me once!
fool me twice!
Cant get fooled again....Hmmmm.
I think they did!
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Guido Fawkes has a transcript of the actual document that some Labour eejit left lying around - you can print them out.
Some of the comments are also worth a look. I especially liked the "translation from Jockanese".
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#200
Porter,
The 2% efficiency savings imposed by the nats on to the 32 local governments in Scotland have resulted in local services jobs cuts and cuts to related services like the elderly and hospitals.
You may wish to check out Dumfries local services and others who have been effected,
Not to mention the cuts in elderly care within Glenrothes, again imposed by the nats.
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The "Labour Away Day" notes are really worth a look.
"lost touch as Party - At Co-op summerfest youth programme ran concurrently - no attraction for young people - out of date - ethos is South of England"
More to follow.
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#200
Your not up to date with the script, TP,
the labour government are committed to the high levels of investment within the public sector.
Currently running towards a 43% of GDP.
Needed in a time of down-turn to continue the record levels of progress.
15Bn to 30Bn Scottish budget increase,
doubled investment under Labour.
What have the snp done to better Scotland?
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#203
Barker.
I asked for evidence to support your comment. I stand corrected. You have failed to provide your evidence. Perhaps because there is none? Again, without evidence to support your claims they are indeed empty.
Also sometimes councils spend more then they are given. Aberdeen City Council is currently in debt by tens of millions. Are you going to blame the cuts on the Nationalists aswell?
By the way since we are talking about spending why not bring up what Labour gave the Scottish Government to play with? In the first year did the Scottish Government not receive the Scottish budget which had the lowest increased amount since devolution began? Are Labour putting political bias before helping the people of Scotland? How can Labour expect to ensure that Health Care and Local Services remain in shape north of the border when they ensure that the Scottish Nationalists have nothing much to spend...
Can you please answer the questions I asked?
I wrote. "How do you expect Labour to continue providing the same standard of Health Care and Local Services when under Labour we spend more then we generate annually, we are sinking into debt that the next two generations will be paying and that depends on if the Tories manage to get into power and stop Labour's spending plans..."
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#205.
Barker.
Again you are refusing to answer my questions.
How can Labour ensure that local services and our health care is funded correctly when a) Britain spends far more then she generates annually b) Britain is already hundreds of millions of pounds in debt.
Are you willing to sacrifice the future for your own current personal needs?
"15Bn to 30Bn Scottish budget increase,
doubled investment under Labour."
In my #206 I point out that Labour handed the Scottish Government one of the lowest increased budgets since devolution. Why was this? You pointed out that Labour increased the Scottish budget quite alot WHILE they were in power... Labour are putting party politics before helping Scotland. It's the average joe who is hurt when they realise that health care and services are reduced because the Scottish Government can not afford to increase spending in these areas by far.
Have you not contradicted your first comment? "...that under labour their health care and local services are best protected."? By handing the Scottish Government with a budget with one of the lowest increases since devolution started damage the very services you believe Labour protects?
It appears Labour is prepared to harm average joe for political points.
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#203
What part of 2% efficiency claw back dont you understand, It's an snp rolling programme?
So you do accept the the GERS report on oil
was just plain stupid snp economic gerrymandering, (yes)
Do you wish an end to the Barnett formula?
Do you think AS was right when he suggested putting 100Bn in to one Bank,
is that what you relate to as sound economics?
Look, why dont you stop having a go at the last 300 years of the union and its progress.
And start giving some concrete evidence of what the nats are doing and would do for Scotland.
If you cant put up....then shut up!
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#207
Look, porter, get some idea of what you believe in, your all over the place and offer no evidence that anyone could take seriously.
Billy smart might have a position for you...
Can you lay bricks.......Errrrrrr...mmmmm
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Hey joe! Are the nats still short with their police numbers...... -45 I believe!
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203 derekbarker
Wrong! Completely.
The money saved from 2% efficiency savings that the SNP Government has demanded of local councils goes directly back to the local councils to be better used.
Isn't that a pretty good idea?
It is not a cut and the SNP Government doesn't touch the money that is saved.
I do wish some Labourites would stop telling lies.
They've been trying to paint an increased funding settlement from the SNP Government as a "cut" for months.
It is noticeable that Labour Councils are making the most noise about this.
What is more noticeable, of course, is that the leader of COSLA, himself a Labour councillor, is honest enough to tell the truth and he keeps pointing the truth out.
There is no cut and all the councils voted to accept the settlement that was offered to them.
They will always want more money,of course, but the tax payer would rather they used the vast sums of money they get rather more efficiently.
Only the politically unscrupulous would try to campaign against an attempt to use our money more efficiently.
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#207 Thomas_Porter
I know we all do it from time to time, but you'd preserve your sanity better by letting our barking friend's words pass over you.
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Brown/Darling/Mandelson rushed through the HBOS/Lloyds merger.
Why the rush Now there's a 3rd bidder
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#212
Brownedov
I've rather enjoyed your posts on the NR thread, yes indeed your making blog friends with many pro unionist, and you do share alot in common with your fellow English blog partners, I do believe that you have dropped your claim for an Independent Scotland in favour of the status quo and the sensible approach to the pragmatic solution for a better United kingdom.
Good for you.....Will you be voting labour now.....comrade...Brownedovski.
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176 sneckedagain
No reply to my 193, nor my 173.
However, I've found some UK Defence budget figures, togther with sources.
Wikipedia states the UK Defence total as being GBP33.6bn (year 2007).
Now, ref Scotland's share, BBC News/Scotland website Sunday/25 Feb 2007:
Quote:
"A senior Nationalist MSP is calling for a £1bn cut in the defence budget in an independent Scotland. Alex Neil said he wanted a large chunk of Scotland's GBP2.8bn share of UK defence spending to be redirected to the fight against child poverty."
Unquote.
Total: UK 33.6, divided by Scotland's share of GBP2.8bn equals 12. Expressed as a percentage equals 8.3r percent.
Which is more than DOUBLE your figure of "under 4%".
Over to you now, or end of?
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Sorry Planejock, it was announced six weeks ago that the budget for the military was to be increased to 37 .75 billion per annum.
Horrendous amount I know, but its not cheap invading Sovereign States without approval from the United Nations. Thats over eight billion more than Scotland gets to run our entire services.
Still we get 8.7% of everything when we leave the Union. The Scrappies here in Scotland will make a mint.
Anyway whats more important than any of that is the fact that Biased BBC doesnt have a single mention of Glenrothes or any SNP News Today. November 3 2008. Now if there is nothing from SNP why are there no back articles like Brown Vowing to Fight for every Vote some three days ago.
Murphy made both the front page of the Scottish News and the Scottish Politics News pages yet not one mention about the BBC's articles on Biased BBC re SNP, Glenrothes etc etc etc etc etc.
Was this the work of oor Brian or was the message sent up from BBC Headquarters in London.
I would always give Brian the benefit of the doubt, and blame the English BBC Bosses formerly eployees of Pravda.
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Plane Jock
The defence spending comes out of the total budget of the UK. It doesnt matter one iota where it is spent. What matters is that it is based on total expenditure of 37.75 billion. Scotlands share is worked out on percentage of population.
37.75 Billion devided by 8.7% means we would have heaps to spend on the underpriveledged here in our Nation.
Sneckedagain is just an imbi.
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scottishrepublic 216 - 217
Good morning! Agreed, that's an awful lot of money, GB could bail out more than a few banks with that....
Thanks for your update, I thought my figures might be slightly antique; was just surfing on the nightshift to gauge any facts behind sneckedagain's throwaway lines.
Cheers
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scottishrepublic 216 217
Good morning! Agreed, that's an awful lot of money, GB could bail out more than a few banks with that....
Thanks for your update, I thought my figures might be slightly antique; was just surfing on the nightshift to gauge any facts behind sneckedagain's throwaway lines.
Cheers
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Judging from the last couple dozen posts the labour hard-core are clearly worried about something. Perhaps some of them live in Glenrothes; and will have to barricade themselves in as Mrs Brown goes 'shooting' through again - while her hubby is too busy off begging oil-rich nations for more cash to keep the economy from going off another cliff!
#216 - In fairness, I note the positive Brown article/Labour Press release; has been replaced by positive Scottish Secretary (I forget the drone's name temporarily)/Labour Press release now!
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Morning all!
So, after a long break, I will ask again.....
How many small European countries (that aren't propped up by either aid or oil) have seen their economy grow faster than the UK over the last 20-30 years?
The OECD site suggests there are none so I asked the nationalists this several times last week.....and the answer was an astonishing zero.
The nationalists could not name a single, solitary small economy (and there are many to consider) that has performed better than the UK over the past quarter of a century.
Hardly proof that Scotland has been "held back by the UK", is it.
Well, the nationalists have had another four days to think of some examples.....let's hear them.
[drums fingers on desk in eager anticipation]
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217. So Scottishrepublic would not have a single penny spent on defending an independent Scotland, depending instead on neighbouring countries to protect us, it seems.
What a proud beggar nation the nationalists are seeking.
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Where has this letter from the 'Norwegian Foreign Ministry' come from?
Is it genuine or is it another nationalist fabrication? I can find many copies being posted by nationalists but no original.
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An extremely interesting aritcle in the Herald in their: Tory 'sweet talk' claims over independence branded nonsense.
Starting with "It was, according to Tory high command, a cunning SNP plan worthy of the sneakiest spymasters of the Cold War." it goes on to confide that a senior Tory source said: "The general purpose was to praise the regime in Edinburgh. It was all part of a plan to persuade people that they would be better-off if Scotland were independent because it would lead to perpetual Conservative government in England."
But isn't that what they have already?
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Brian
Call me cynical but is the otiose Secretary of State for Scotland Jim Murphy not just an anti SNP propagandist paid by the long suffering taxpayers of Scotland.? Or is he just picking fights withe constitutional settlement.? Either way, Labour let Scotland down again,
We are no longer the blind followers our parents were.
Donald
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#202 oldnat
Anyone who found difficulty in reading the memo on the Guido link or wanted a translation from "Jockanese" can see it discussed in print on the Sunday Post's Activists expose Labour disarray.
Not usually my first choice of reading - the link was in a comment on a Scotsman article - but worth a look nonetheless.
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The Czechoslovakian duo, Pinky and Perky
alias (oldnat Brownedov) are all out of pork.
Even their grunts are becoming less effective!
Well! little porkers, the farms always a good place for you's to hide......
All sty! and no style!
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#223 Reluctant-Expat
"Where has this letter from the 'Norwegian Foreign Ministry' come from?
Is it genuine or is it another nationalist fabrication? I can find many copies being posted by nationalists but no original."
As the Mail have yet to publish an apology and do not put inbound letters online, it's certainly not easy to find a truly independent source with the full text.
However, I'm not sure if you regard the Herald or the Thunderer as nationalist rags but I do know that most of us don't. Both these journals refer to the letter and have extracts.
See the Herald's Murphy accused on Norway which says Bjarne Lindstrom yesterday said in a letter to a newspaper: "The Norwegian Foreign Minister did not intend to criticise either side in this debate, which is a domestic political discussion."
While the Thunderer's Local laddie takes roughcast with smooth says But Bjarne Lindstrom, the Norwegian Ambassador, said in a letter to The Daily Mail: "The Norwegian Foreign Minister did not intend to criticise either side in this debate, which is a domestic political discussion."
Granted, the rest of the letter might, just possibly, have been fabricated, but if you really believe that, is it not likely that the someone in the ambassador's or Murphy's office would have a paper copy and issued a denial?
If you're losing sleep over it, The Norwegian Embassy in London's website gives an email address. Why not email them suggesting they issue a confirmation or a denial?
The Mail Online's feedback page also gives you the opportunity to send a comment and gives an email address. That they have published no denial strikes me as pretty conclusive, but there's nothing to stop you following it up.
The fact that nobody has yet done these things and that newspapers usually considered unionist quote parts of the letter tend to confirm my own view that the version published at #62 is a true and fair transcription of it.
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228. So there is NO full version of the letter online? How convenient for the nationalists.
Love the astonishing, historic and groundbreaking superlatives from the incredible and astounding SNP. Truly biblical in their infinite, glorious awesomeness.
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#229 Reluctant-Expat
"Love the astonishing, historic and groundbreaking superlatives from the incredible and astounding SNP. Truly biblical in their infinite, glorious awesomeness."
No doubt they'll be glad to welcome your pauline conversion.
How conventient for the Daily Mail not to put the letter online and have to apologise for it.
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Relactant Expat
The full letter from the Norwegian Ambassador has ben published in several newspapers over the weekend - but not so far in the Daily Mail or Mail on Sunday.
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#229 Reluctant-Expat
So there is NO full version of Reluctant-Expat online? How convenient for him.
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Dear derek
How are you getting on in the Big Hoose? You must be improving if they let you have a 'puter. We can see you from the train. When you see the trains the ones going South are to a place called England where they have a tory government run by a nasty man called Brown who loves Mrs Thatcher. The other ones are going to Edinburgh where they have a socialist government run by a fat controller called Wee Eck. You will find things have changed when you get out; Checkoslovakia is no more and voting Labour doesn't even get you on the waiting list either. If it all gets too much for you let us know and we'll have a party to
Save the Carstairs One!
PS If you're not there, can I have some of it. It is mind-blowingly good.
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Rerluctant-Expat #221,
What are you talking about? Have you no scooby at all what is happening in the world? do you simply sit and read the BBC website and come to the conclusion that what you hear in the news is the full story?
I suggest you do some reading. why do you think Brown was in Saudi this week? For your information, stop your unionist record regarding how prosperous small nations are or are not. It absolutely makes no difference what size the country is. This is for one very good reason... EVERYONE globally is affected.
Let me enlighten you. Globally we are reaching the point when demand for oil is overtaking the maximum available supply of oil. Generally this point is referred to as Peak-oil. The Greens abstained in last weeks HBOS Holyrood vote...
"Patrick Harvey said trying to re-float the current financial system was "like the captain of the Titanic trying to set sail for the next iceberg."
He said the "demented pursuit" of economic growth was simply unsustainable.
Patrick Harvey has this dead right. Money only grows through the giving of loans. Essentially money does not have a fixed value. cach can drop in value just like stocks and shares (ie Inflation). Cheap accessible oil has enabled economic and more importantly, population levels to grow out of all proportion in the last 2 hundred years.
Now that we are reaching peak oil production, where do you expect to see growth coming from? The simple answer is that there will be none. Truth be told, the world is facing 3 or 4 decades of relentless economic contraction.
Finally, to answer your point, you name any country in the world (large or small) which is going tio grow it's economy in the next 20 or 30 years? Your argument against the SNP is flawed because you cannot see the bigger picture.
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The core issue to remember is this: the total available revenue in an independent Scotland (with oil) still would fall short of the required capital needed to save both RBS and HBOS.
The SNP possition that 'this wouldn't have happened if we ruled ourselves' is nonsense. Firstly, these private companies would still have racheted up the levels of debt and subsquently sunk like they are now if Scotland was independent or not- the union allows us the save these banks, and secure over 16,000 jobs in Edinburgh alone. This is why the union is relevent, it saves jobs that an SNP ideological pip-dream of 'freedom at all costs' would not.
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#231 sneckedagain &
#232 handclapping
If you've found it the full text online in a media website, I'd love a link.
In the meantime, R-E is attempting to troll again by suggesting another nationalist [c-word] at the same time as trying to goad people to respond to his claims based on an out-of-context graphic from the OECD.
Re the Norway story, I suggest that Conan Doyle's "the dog did nothing in the night-time" from "Silver Blaze" is more to the point.
1. The Mail have removed the original story from their website
2. Neither News - The Labour Party nor The Scottish Labour Party: News denies any of this affair.
3. The Scotland Office's own Secretary of State's Blog has the full text of the letter in a comment tmestamped 30 Oct 2008 @ 9:55 pm.
If the text dissembled, would it not have been removed from a government blog?
Why have the Mail withdrawn the original article?
Why do Labour make no denials in the news sections of their own websites?
Perhaps the case is not quite proven, but if it is not true then whoever has the evidence to deny it is certainly asleep at the helm.
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#235 deanthetory
The UK are not giving the money out of a big sweetie jar! - they're borrowing the money.
That's one of the main reasons that the GBP has tanked against the euro.
It's the European Union that's relevant - not the pretendy wee UK.
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#233 handclapping
LOL but a little harsh on someone clearly needing sheltered accomodation
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234. So, in summary, YOU can't name a single country either?
What a stunning revelation from the nationalists that they can't name ONE unsubsidised country that has out-performed the UK economy in the last 20-30 years! The pro-independence argument again shows it has all the strength of tissue paper in a stiff breeze.
Finally, to answer your point, you name any country in the world (large or small) which is going tio grow it's economy in the next 20 or 30 years?
Name one? I can name about 200!
You actually think every country in the world will be in recession for the next 20 or 30 years? Get real.
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235. At 12:53pm on 03 Nov 2008, deanthetory.
The core issue to remember is this: the total available revenue in an independent Scotland (with oil) still would fall short of the required capital needed to save both RBS and HBOS.
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what to remember is that an independent scotland would have approx. 120 billion minimum to play, with not the 30 billion that we receive at this moment from westminster.
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The SNP possition that 'this wouldn't have happened if we ruled ourselves' is nonsense.
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an independent scotland may not have relaxed all the regulations that GORDON BROWN relaxed, and further to this a scottish finantial regulator could not have done any worse than the FSA in overseeing the banks.
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Firstly, these private companies would still have racheted up the levels of debt and subsquently sunk like they are now if Scotland was independent or not- the union allows us the save these banks, and secure over 16,000 jobs in Edinburgh alone. This is why the union is relevent, it saves jobs that an SNP ideological pip-dream of 'freedom at all costs' would not.
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it is speculation that these private companies would still have racheted up the same levels of debt wether scotland was independent or not.
poor regulation and the fact that the FSA did not do their job was the main contributer to the collapse of the banks.
also the fact that GORDON BROWN dithered in what to do, allthough ALEX SALMOND had allready spoken of the remedy, put liquid funds into the banks at the start of the problem, not three weeks later, when the situation had deteriorated.
further more GORDON BROWN could have guarenteed all bank deposits, and hence stopped the run on the banks.
even given the fact that GORDON BROWN dithered and has used the bank crisis for his own political agenda, an independent scotland could have done exactly the same as westminster and borrowed the funds to recapitalise the banks.
the union is draging scotland down to the same level as england, its called banktrupt, and the sooner scotland frees itself from the union, the sooner scotland can start to sort out problems with solutions that suit scotland.
the union is scotlands main problem, and the sooner we are out of the control of westminster the better for scotland.
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Mike Smithson at PoliticalBetting.com has moved his money onto an SNP win in Glenrothes - largely on their much better organisation in a close contest.
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#239 Reluctant-Expat
So, in summary, after more than five days YOU can't provide a single link to put the OECD graphic you claim justifies your question in context.
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239. At 1:37pm on 03 Nov 2008, Reluctant-Expat wrote:
do you mean the growth that that was founded on the credit boom and house price inflation that has come crashing down around GORDON BROWNS neck.
get it straight, GORDON BROWNS policies have as near as you can get to banktrupting britain.
GORDON BROWN is now crawling to the middle east states to get them to invest in britain, because britain has nothing left in the kitty.
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#239 Reluctant-Expat
"Name one? I can name about 200!"
The majority of them smaller than Scotland, of course.
"You actually think every country in the world will be in recession for the next 20 or 30 years? Get real."
It wasn't a party political point and you're mistaken to treat it as such. The '30s slump was only ended after more than a decade by WW2. This slump (Darling's own word) is beginning at a time when resources are increasingly scarce - your own forecasts re oil, for example - yet we're facing probable global warming problems at the same time. Personally, I think they can all probably be solved, at least by the developed countries but predicting a short downturn is unwise until we have a little more experience of it.
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Mod queue lengthening again - time for a break, I think. TTFN
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I know I'm a bit late with this, but I've only just seen this gem:
Thomas_Porter in #161:
"The British Government would continue to pay the pensions of those who served with the British Army. The Scottish Government would then take responsibility for those who have transfered to the Scottish Military."
If Scotland becomes a sovereign, independent nation, just who do you see as forming the "British" government? In the unlikely (in my view) event of Scotland leaving the union, then there will be no "British" government because there will be no "Britain", just its constituent nations, although I grant you given the lack of enthusiam for an assembly displayed in their referendum on devolution, Wales may remain united with England. You seen to have the fanciful idea that Scotland can simply walk away from the union and leave "Britain" (you know the Britain that Scotland has just disolved) to pick up the tab. You really need to think a bit more deeply about the implications, because judging from your many posts you haven't yet grasped them. Ongoing economic liabilities (like pension payments to public servants and soldiers who served prior to independence) will fall on Scotland as well as a now mythical "British" government. The sums will make interesting reading.
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has anyone heard any details of the plans to dump toxic waste from the london olympic site in scotland that was reported in yesterdays papers.
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#246 MalcolmW2
You are of course right that liabilities are shared - it's one of the practical reasons for continuing to share certain functions - rather like the disaggregated Regions needed to do.
Hence my favouring the Confederal solution.
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#247 mr_ripvanwinkle
Didn't see the story. Which papers?
I can't imagine that Boris would seriously suggest something like that.
I know he's a clown but .....
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244. Strange post!
Well, about half are smaller than Scotland, with the other half being larger. Y'point?
Nothing party political (?) about dismissing a nationalist's silly claim that there will be a 30 year-long global recession. Just another example of that 'common sense' the nats seem to lack in skiploads.
246. I think you're confusing 'Britain' with 'UK'.
And we should drop the convoluted 'UK of GB + NI + Overseas Territories + Other stuff' and just change it to 'Britain'.
Spot on re "unlikely" independence vote any time soon, although 'highly unlikely' is my belief nowadays.
247. One of the contractors has sought SEPA's permission to offload oil-polluted waste at an existing waste dump in the middle of the country. Olympic Authority has told them to look closer to London.
(I'm sure you can still find something in there to get all 'angry' about.)
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247. mr_ripvanwinkle
http://forargyll.com/2008/11/scotlands-legacy-from-the-london-olympics-could-be-250000-tons-of-polluted-soil/
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Alex want a biscuit? Does he? Speak then! Speak, Alex, speak! Good boy!
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The toxic nats are off-loading their tripe again.
In case anyone is in any-doubt the Euroezone is also in recession, along with every-other major nation's in the world.
So AS and the nats have dumped their green credentials and give way to the Trump
card.
Another u-turn, one club eck and his crazy pitching followers, jezz, is there no shame with this mob.
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251. At 4:49pm on 03 Nov 2008, cynicalHighlander wrote:
247. mr_ripvanwinkle
http://forargyll.com/2008/11/scotlands-legacy-from-the-london-olympics-could-be-250000-tons-of-polluted-soil/
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many thanks for the link, i had seen the headlines yesterday, but it did not give the story.
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#250 Reluctant-Expat
"an existing waste dump in the middle of the country."
#251 cynicalHighlander
Your report must be wrong. Expat clearly said "in the middle of the country", so it can't be Falkirk - that's not the middle of Britain.
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255. Now you will have Master Porter asking if you knew Scotland is a country.
Quick, try and get that post removed before he sees it!
Quiiiick! I can hear him logging on!
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2years on, their manifesto in tatters
all their broken promises on
SCHOOLS
HOSPITALS
HOUSES
STUDENT DEBT
POLICE
ECONOMY
RE-NEWABLE ENERGY
REFERENDUMS
ENVIRONMENT
JOBS
The arch-of-prosperity falls on Trump!
Bring in the diggers.
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#250 Reluctant-Expat
"Well, about half are smaller than Scotland, with the other half being larger. Y'point?"
I'll take your word for it. The point was that you're the Pte. Frazer on the BT threads, spreading doom and gloom for small countries. I was just surprised that you knew there were so many.
"Nothing party political (?) about dismissing a nationalist's silly claim that there will be a 30 year-long global recession."
Glad to hear that you're so optimistic, but do you have any facts on which to base that optimism or why you believe Capt. Darling is wrong to call it a slump? Do you have some insider information on why it will be a faster recovery than the '30s?
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255. oldnat
On the exact point - grid reference SD 64188.3 56541.43
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2271914.stm#pictures
Sorry to be pedantic!
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Thomas_Porter in #161:
"The British Government would continue to pay the pensions of those who served with the British Army. The Scottish Government would then take responsibility for those who have transfered to the Scottish Military."
Just like the Ghurkas, then...
If you trust politicians to do what is right, decent and proper, you're in for a life full of disappointment.
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Expat. Can we have a gentlemans agreement.
When SNP take Glenrothes you will go away and stop posting your bile on this site?
I get bored hearing about this challenge to find a sucessful economy blah blah. Lets look at today, again Stirling gets thrown away to the dogs, few cents on the dollar and euro respectively. We have fell behind what 20% and more in last 6 months. Dont go claiming we are doing well in this recession, we are not we are getting slated in the world markets.
Gordo claims to be the leader as he trundles around the gulf trying to get Arab states to stabilise the oil price. ERM OPEC? Perhaps they will wholehartedly agree with Brown, only issue is one wants 25 Dollar and one wants 85.
Just because he was first to throw money at the banks doesnt make him clever it allows every other country to test the water before jumping. Being the first lemming is not an accolade in my view.
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Re Donald Trump ..... come on Labour nuts ... if Labour had been in power up here they too would have put this one through. Gordon wants to kick start the economy and what better way than to create around 6000 jobs. Im sure the sand dunes and birds etc will be fine. The only bad thing i can see is the roads ... i just came from that direction at 5.30 and i wont be doing it again !!! Mind you the Aberdeen bypass should be under way soon .
Reluctant Expat ... name those 200 countries then .... come on
Derek my little furry friend ... i see you have escaped from your cage again and are running around biting people ..... better climb back up your masters (RE) trouser leg lol
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I am very suprised. Derek, why are you still here? You embarressed yourself last night with your claims. I am still waiting for your answer. How can Labour continue to provide a high standard of health care and local services while they continue to overspend annually and are also sinking Britain into debt by hundreds of billions overall?
#246.
MalcolmW2.
"If Scotland becomes a sovereign, independent nation, just who do you see as forming the "British" government?"
I have a question. Who is British? I believe Northern Ireland has never been apart of the 'Union' because of the title. 'Great Britain and Northern Ireland. However people of Northern Ireland do call themselves British. Are they British or are you disallowing their claims? Of course Wales is not England. They are Welsh while the people of England are English (not including the migration between states) Are the Welsh British? Or are you going to disregard their right to be called British?
I understand that Scotland will be to pick up the bill for some issues. I have never, ever, claimed otherwise. However I do see Britain as Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and England and all though Scotland will eventually leave, Britain or British anyway will continue between Wales, Northern Ireland and England. Why would it stop?
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#259 cynicalHighlander
Can't argue with a grid reference.
Expat must have been wrong - I know it's difficult to believe.
How are the mighty fallen.
""I am great OZYMANDIAS," saith the stone,
"The King of Kings; this mighty City shows
"The wonders of my hand." The City's gone,
Nought but the Leg remaining to disclose
The site of this forgotten Babylon."
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#261 Bramblebikes
I think you need to be clear that you are referring to the Siberian Brown Lemming (Lemmus sibiricus).
I would hate people to confuse Gordon Brown with Sarah Palin - Unalaska Collared Lemming (Dicrostonyx unalascensis).
Naturally the Norway Lemming (Lemmus lemmus) would not wish to become involved with the dubious tactics of Labour.
:-)
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mmm had a look at some sites and it would seem there are only 192 but being that Scotland and Wales are not included id say with the UK being England 194 ... maybe RE is including some made up countries.
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I note Reluctant Expat and derekbarker have run out of sensible discourse and are disgracing themselves by puerile nonsense. Best to ignore them.
Bad little boys just misbehave worse if you pay any attention to them.
Do you realise you're destroying any arguement you may think you have, gentlemen?
The word from Glenrothes is that the SNP is now pulling away from Labour again and the Labour campaign (which never consisted of anything more than a handful of activists and desperate forays in an out by Brown and his missus for the benefit of the media) has virtually stopped.
Big Issue has been doing an online poll. The question is about present economic woes and failing banks.
3% - yes 3% - of respondents to date think these circumstances have made independence less likely.
Despite mad unionist hopes that independence would fade the present turmoil is having the opposite effect. The people know who's responsible for the mess we're in.
Its only the unioncentric media who believe the independence arguement has been damaged.
It doesn't matter how much they say it - it doesn't make it true.
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Britishness will continue, as it symbolises the need for something more unifying than categorising everyone into ethno-cultural boxes. Britishness demands we share resources, wealth, and through the combining of our seperate abilities we make ourselves better placed to meet global resessions.
An independent Scotland, and as a Scot myself i do understand the romantic attraction of such a notion, would encourage a 'beggar my neighbour' attitude in these isles.
Besides, i have english relatives, as well as scot ones- i am british because i cannot be placed neatly into a box of either 'english' or 'scottish'. And to foce the millions like me to renounce an aspect of my culture is to degrade my right to honour both apsects of my family. Think on this before advocating independence, please i beg you.
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#266 rabbiehippo
You dare to doubt the great Expat?
Fear not, he will return with grid references which will destroy all your puny arguments!
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#269 Maybe a good idea for him just to google countries of the world before stating incorrectly that there are 200. Grid references dont scare me !
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#268.
Dean.
Perhaps you could share your views on the issue MalcolmW2 and I have discussed. I believe that Britain and Britishness will continue after Scotland leaves the political Union. Malcolm believes that without Scotland, Britain no longer exists. This is technically true but I do not believe to be the case. The people of Northern Ireland sometimes call themselves British and Irish (the Unionists anyway) but technically Northern Ireland was never apart of Britain hence the term, "Great Britain and Northern Ireland". Wales, once annexed by England is not somewhere in England. I believe Britishness will continue to be used to describe England, Northern Ireland and Wales in future.
MalcolmW2 asked, "If Scotland becomes a sovereign, independent nation, just who do you see as forming the "British" government?" How do you feel about that? Do you agree with me, or Malcolm or do you hold a different theory?
I have to comment on part of your paragraph.
"Besides, i have english relatives, as well as scot ones- i am british because i cannot be placed neatly into a box of either 'english' or 'scottish'."
The whole point of Scottish Independence will be to end the political Union between Scotland and the other parts of the United Kingdom. The social part between Scotland and the other parts of the United Kingdom will continue after Scottish Independence. You are not being asked to choose between Scottish and Englishness. Several members of the Scottish National Party could be considered Scottish or English or even both.
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#268 Deanthetory ... id change your name if i was you ... for some reason i keep reading it as 'Deathtotorys' . I dont think the Torys will ever learn in Scotland ... i mean the candidate for Glenrothes Maurice Golden . I had a cousin called Maurice (pronounced Morris) but somehow i suspect this one is pronounced Mowrees ... which sounds very elegant and a typical toffy tory name . My point is that non middle class people like myself would never vote for your lord and lady types ... we want freedom.
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sneckedagain # 267
"It doesn't matter how much they say it - it doesn't make it true".
Guess the same rule applies to your unsourced 176, "Scotland has averaged less than 4% of the defence procurement spending in the UK", unfounded and since disproved.
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#272
Porter, master pathetic, are you suggesting that no one should get a mortgage unless they can pay the full amount up front.
Are you saying no can get a car unless they have the full payment ready.
Wow, young chap, borrowing is something all nations do, yes even the irresponsible Americans borrow porter.
TP, you can click on your previous post, there you make the statement several times, that Scotland would be a rich Independent nation if it had full control of it's oil revenues.(care to check your posts)
Look kid, your out of your depth, take a reality check and make up your mind on who and what you support, in the mean time, it's the real economy stupid!
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#268 deanthetory
You are clearly hurting, because your sense of political identity is now under threat. I can understand that since my Scottish political identity has been under threat all of my life.
However, let's have a rational look at your concerns.
"Britishness will continue"
Of course it will, as long as there are people who believe in it. When I was a young teacher, a colleague complained to the Head about me, because I criticised British colonial policy in a staffroom discussion. He was a member of the League of Empire Loyalists, and felt genuinely hurt that his belief system was under attack.
"categorising everyone into ethno-cultural boxes."
I'm in agreement with you on that, and have nothing but contempt for the BNP. Fortunately, Scottish Nationalists and few British Nationalists (of your tendency as opposed to the BNP) agree with such racially derived nonsense.
"Britishness demands we share resources, wealth, and through the combining of our seperate abilities we make ourselves better placed to meet global resessions."
This sounds terribly like some British National isolationism. Most Scottish Nationalists (certainly the SNP) would agree with the sentiments, but put them in a European context. In the midst of a global financial whirlwind, why would anyone pin their hopes on a small island off the European coast?
"Besides, i have english relatives, as well as scot ones- i am british because i cannot be placed neatly into a box of either 'english' or 'scottish'."
I have English relatives too, and even more American ones. I also have close friends who live in Europe. What on earth does that have to do with the political institutions that we decide are most appropriate?
"degrade my right to honour both apsects of my family."
Waaay over the top!
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now, oldnat, repat could be right if he started at stoke on trent, the rest below that has probably been sold to saudi arabia by now.
mr GORDON ( oliver twist ) BROWN has been round the arab states with his begging bowl, please can we have more investment and jobs for the boys.
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#270 rabbiehippo
Enough of this heresy!
The Great Expat revealed himself unto me (we all have our little faults and his is very little) on the road to Glenrothes and spake thus -
"Nyah, nyah, nyah, nyah, nyah, nyah,"
He has no need of these things that you call google and reality. Verily, he speaketh and it is so!
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272. At 9:03pm on 03 Nov 2008, Thomas_Porter.
thomas, britain will always exist as its the british isles, what will not exist is the british government as without scotland there can be no british government.
it could be called the south british government and N.I. but that will be up to themselfs.
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#268/272 Speaking as a reluctant expat (NOT to be confused with the troll) with an English wife and two half English sons I don't see that Scottish independence will affect the fact that I am both Scottish and British. Despite some of the scaremongering from our Unionist friends there is going to be no question of a fence going up along the border so why should it.
We are part of Europe and while it may be anathema to some, I enjoy travelling in a Europe without frontiers. As I have remarked in a previous thread I can't help avoid a sneaking suspicion that what really terrifies some unionists is the awful prospect that one day England might actually share a land boundary with another European country.
So no, an independent Scotland won't make a blind bit of difference to how I enjoy my family and friends on both sides of a purely administrative border
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#275.
Barker.
I prefer the term 'young adult' rather then kid. However its rather amusing that you choose to bring up age when you are clearly unable to answer questions which I am asking. I am out of my depth? It appears you are totally and utterly out of yours. It's more embarressing for you because you highlight the fact I am young, yet unable to answer me.
You appear to be missing the point. Eventually these loans Labour has borrowed will one day have to be repaid. Under Labour we overspend annually and we are still borrowing billions from abroad. How can Labour repay loans while we overspend? Then you say Labour protect our health care and local services. How can this be true when they are putting Britain into an incredibly difficult position. Do we either cut back on health care and local service spending or raise taxes to repay our debts?
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Well! Rabbie, any further with your wind powered train plan?
Next you'll be telling me how Scotland will become a net supplier of electricity to Europe.( you and bighullabaloo)
Rabbie, why dont the nats make the case for an an Independent Scotland, how will they raise over 30Bn to keep the economy going in Scotland? No one has been able to answer this question so far? I doubt the snp supporters ever will.
What is the real position of the snp on Europe?fishing rights and all?
Rabbie, why do some of your fellow supporters of the snp, simply write off the efficiency programme, why dont they accept the facts that it has costs jobs in several local authorities?
Rabbie, there is alot of flag waving from your side but when will the snp get serious about government and stop kidding the public that they are responsibile.
When will some-one give a clear answer, why the snp has failed to deliver on its manifesto pledges?
Is one golf course in the north east, sufficient? to Scotlands needs?
Rabbie, what about an honest answer for a change, do you agree that the GERS reports were a slip by AS and that you cant base your entire economic plans on oil alone?
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#279.
I understand that on technical terms Britain was founded by Scotland and England. However my main point is that people from Northern Ireland sometimes call themselves 'British'. If they are British then surely they will continue to form the British Government after Scottish Independence? After all England may be the dominating partner within the United Kingdom, but the people from Northern Ireland and Wales are not English. Will Britishness not then continue to be how they represent themselves as a united entity?
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280 I agree wholeheartedly with that .... i to like the continent and its people ... Ive noticed lately a few nasty comments made (elsewhere) from English people about the French. I like the French .... been there 3 times ... in fact i picked up some of the lingo ... i had to get on my bike and ride to the bakers ..... ' nif croissant chocolat sil vous plais ' thats what i learnt ... and might tasty they were to. It will be the same with Scotland and England .... Everybody will be welcome .... except i wont have to speak French when i visit Brighton.
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Apparently Obama's grandmother has just died.
As she had cancer, she's no doubt out of pain, but wouldn't it have been good if she'd seen him elected.
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#262, #266 rabbiehippo
Currently there are 192 UN Member States, but as you say it counts the UK as one and ignores colonies and occupied countries like Tibet. It's fair to say that there are about 200 countries or nations.
There are more important issues on which to cross swords with R-E.
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Oldnat, do you think that the Euro currency is a better currency the the GBP?
What part of the five main opt outs would you suggest Scotland keept if it became Independent and entered Europe?
Are you happy to give up the Scottish regiment, to become part of a Euro army
(history and all for the foreign legion)
Would you be happy to let Brussells control Scotland full taxation system?
Would you like to reserve any fishing rights?
What language would you prefer the Scottish people to have.....gallic?
Why dont you start being more specific,about what your advocating?
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Oldnat .... seems theres been a lot of sillyness here the last couple of days lol.
Seems my last post has been referred ... was having a dig at the torys.
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#281
Porter,
Kid! I'll answer you one more time.
Since 1946 The British government has always borrowed ( see Atlees American loan)
Government borrowing under the last conservative government was higher than todays government borrowing, that coupled with high interest rates made the conservatives recession more severe, in terms of jobs and public services support.
Todays government has relatively low inflation and a lower borrowing rate(37% GDP) that allows this government to borrow more in these difficult times to continue with the public sector record investments.
The banking bail out, which is happening on a world wide scale, means the government will buy shares in banks (dividends) when those banks recover, the government will cash in those dividends, (yes)
Are you saying, that the government shouldn't have acted to save those banks and are you saying that we should not raise are borrowing to 43% GDP to keep our public services going?
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281. At 9:53pm on 03 Nov 2008, Thomas_Porter.
thomas do not let derekbarker or expat get under your skin as they are a pair of tadpoles out of water gasping for breath.
they know that their nulab party is going down the pan and all on its last breath in scotland.
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#268 deanthetory
oldnat's #276 is absolutely right, you know, but he omits one flaw of the whole edifice of Britishness - democratic legitimacy.
Wales and Ireland were conquered while Scotland was effectively bought by one set of masters from our previous ones. Yet even in the move to our current quasi-democratic system in 1949, with the arrival of one-person one-vote, our masters never thought to consult any of us - not even the English - re whether we wanted to be British.
By then, the unionists had long since lost most of Ireland, of course, by failing to listen to the pleas for home rule for perhaps 30 years too long. In the meantime, they had signed the UN Charter guaranteeing the right of self-determination.
The UK unionists were only too keen to see that applied to Kosovo, yet are strangely loth to apply it at home. A case of the cobbler's children being the worst shod, I suppose.
If Scotland and, later, Wales go independent, the unionists will have nobody to blame but themselves.
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Just to brighten the end of the day!
Boom and bust is the ethos of that man from Fife
He is now just waiting for the mayhem and strife
Cavorting with suspected terrorists and shaking their hands
All to shore up the economy in his homelands
He's got a by-election in the Kingdom of Fife
His canvassers include his dutiful wife
Now don't let this worry you as he is the man
To send the UK economy straight down the pan
If all this fails, he'll use PFI to build more gaols
While the locals search for coal to put in their pails
Lets hope those good people of Fife
Remember that they could be locked up for 42 days or life
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#284
Rabbie, read what a fellow snp fan is saying (T Porter)
He's clearly against borrowing and the bail-out of banks, under that situation if Scotland was Independent and that was the party line, then Scotland would be in a worse position than Iceland.
Would you agree with that.
just a simple yes or No!
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#282.
"Rabbie, why dont the nats make the case for an an Independent Scotland, how will they raise over 30Bn to keep the economy going in Scotland?"
Can you explain why Scotland has to specifically raise 30 billion pounds to keep her economy going? You are aware Scotland generates over one hundred billion pounds annually right...?
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#284 rabbiehippo
"i wont have to speak French when i visit Brighton."
Given the English resistance to the euro, and the diving GBP v the euro - are you sure of that?
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rabbie
I forgot my conversion to my belief in Expat (the Great Saviour) there.
(Smacks hand - BAD oldnat)
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#282 Derek your so negative .... PC's used to take up a whole room ... now they can be held in your hand !!!
Where will the SNP raise the 30 billion to keep the country going ??? good question ... but Gordon obviously doesnt know the answer either as hes away begging for money.
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Oh dear, things are getting silly again. Mainly due to RE returning and sneckedagain just as bad.
We need a bit of agreement here between all sides.
No matter what anyone's views are, there is no prefect solution.
The union may not be the way forward, but full independence carries a lot of dangers as well.
A federalist state MAY be the way forward, but who knows.
Labour are likely to be mincemeat at the next general election, so the Conservatives once again have the job of reparing the economy. That will put them under pressure to make savings and that is just what the SNP wants.
Alex Salmond is doing well, but not brilliantly at the moment. The recent HBOS has left a few holes in him, mainly with the constant push of a "Scottish" bank, rather than highlighting the jobs in danger in Scotland and England. If the 2010 referendum fails to meet what he requires, his leadership may be challenged. But his safety net is that if he goes, the SNP will decline, since perhaps with the exception of Nicola Sturgeon there is no one who has a good public persona.
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282. At 9:58pm on 03 Nov 2008, derekdohnut wrote:
Well! Rabbie, any further with your wind powered train plan?
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all ready working in canada, if you read the posts and links about 3 weeks ago.
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Next you'll be telling me how Scotland will become a net supplier of electricity to Europe.( you and bighullabaloo)
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scotland allready supplies over 33% of its over capacity to england & N.I., did you not know england was part of europe.
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Rabbie, why dont the nats make the case for an an Independent Scotland, how will they raise over 30Bn to keep the economy going in Scotland? No one has been able to answer this question so far? I doubt the snp supporters ever will.
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scotland has an economy of approx. 120 billion. its well seen you do not know your figures.
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What is the real position of the snp on Europe?fishing rights and all?
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an independent scotland would be able to put its case to the E.U.. and maybe we will also find out why westminster sold out the scottish fishing industry when britain joined the common market.
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Rabbie, why do some of your fellow supporters of the snp, simply write off the efficiency programme, why dont they accept the facts that it has costs jobs in several local authorities?
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its well seen that you do not know the waste that goes on in the local councils, plus the fact that nulab have been employing more council workers to keep the jobless total down.
my local council privatised traffic wardens so that the employees came of the councils books, and then proudly stated that the total employed by the council remained the same for the year.
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Rabbie, there is alot of flag waving from your side but when will the snp get serious about government and stop kidding the public that they are responsibile.
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they are a lot more responsible that your deadbeats nulab, and when will your glorious leader accept responsibility for his mishandling of the economy over the last 11 years and fall on his sword.
calamity brown.
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When will some-one give a clear answer, why the snp has failed to deliver on its manifesto pledges?
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come back in just over 2 years time when they have had a full term in office, then you may receive an answer.
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Is one golf course in the north east, sufficient? to Scotlands needs?
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this question confirms that you are a dohnut.
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Rabbie, what about an honest answer for a change, do you agree that the GERS reports were a slip by AS and that you cant base your entire economic plans on oil alone
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another stupid question from a dohnut.
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#299
ripvanwinkle, would you care to elaborate on your "south British Isle" comment.
I'm sure Cameron and co, would like to hear abit more about that!
On second thoughts, why dont you make a comment on a real issue.
Like the recent find from scientist, that MRSA
cant grow on brass, do you think the present snp government should commit to making all hospital handles and taps ect....
from brass?
Would you consider it as a necessary need to be tied into the scottish health care cost?
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#295 oldnat
Vicious but LOL
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#297
Rabbie, was that an answer, jezz! why should anyone support a party that cant answer any questions.
Where is the positive in the nats missing policies?
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#295 Well they did have a day of the Tour de France in the south of England so maybe the French are working at it ..
Derek -Brown sold half the countrys gold just before its price rose dramatically.... thats hardly good financial sense ....
PFI/PPP's these are being used by Brown to make him look good .....ooh weve got a new school/hospital then realizing ten years down the line that it cost twice as much as public spending.Its happening now.... you cant go wrong if your a big PFI contractor .... mess up and you get paid to leave.. oh aye Gordon looks after big business.
#293 No
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#292
Go on......give...us.....another...one
Wow! your so.....poetic..................
Are the brother of young porter?
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#297 rabbiehippo
"PC's used to take up a whole room ... now they can be held in your hand !!! "
Maybe I experienced a false vision on the road to Glenrothes when Expat revealed himself to me.
I hadn't thought about it being a PC.
I need to declare myself apostate in the cult of the Great Expat, and return to my previous stance.
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#299 Mrsleepyheed ...... lol . Sort the Rodent oot .
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erm can anyone explain how Derek #300 managed to post a blog arguing about #299 immediatly since they have been awaiting moderation for ages .... can Derek read posts that are awaiting moderation ???
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300. At 11:44pm on 03 Nov 2008, derekdohnut wrote:
Like the recent find from scientist, that MRSA
cant grow on brass.
-------------------------------------------------------
that means that you will not get MRSA in your head.
the nearer the glenrothes election the more rubbish you spout.
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What an interesting report from the traditionally Unionist Herald !
The whole tone of the article suggests an SNP win.
"The Glenrothes by-election entered its final 72 hours of campaigning yesterday, with the SNP expressing renewed confidence it would win while Labour concentrated on the specific issue of bus services."
Fingers crossed for both elections this week.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#301 Brownedov
Moi?
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#308
ripvantiwnkle, another nat that cant answer a question, it must be in the DNA fabric
Sleepy head, wake up, so we are going to sell electricity to England now?when they just happen to be investing 12Bn into a new nuclear power site.
An Independent Scotland would put it's case to the EU, do you mean an Independent Scotland would be swallowed up by the EU. think sleepy think......
Come back in two years time and what! you might have clawed back those -45 police officers, polo-mint politics again..sleepy head.
So you also advocate that the 4 to 5 Bn oil revenues still exist? wake up man....the price of oil has halfed.
Jezz, are you saying that the snp government under Independence would have a budget of 120Bn or is that 20Bn minus the 100Bn to save one bank....wake up hollow head.
Are you by any chance Icelandic? twinkle toes.
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#302 Well i dont have a degree in politics and im nae a member of the SNP so dont expect long political answers from me... i just have an interest thats all ..... but ill tell you this ...see you ... see you (Rab C) I know what comes out the back of bulls and Labour are in a field of it .
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#303
Rabbie, Alex Salmond wanted to put 100Bn
into saving one bank.....now.....thats from an economist...irresponsibile or what!
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Rabbie I almost missed your NO, to my 293
As an old tennis star used to say "YOU CANN'T BE SERIOUS MAN"
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derekdohnut is trying to distract all the posters away from telling the truth about nulab before the glenrothes by-election.
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#308
rip
So you consider those who are infected with MRSA dont deserve attention and care.
Wow! what a sinister little clout trap you are indeed.
I'm sure that will get a good response from Glenrothes, as polling day nears.
Hollow head.
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#301 Brownedov
The nighttime mod didn't understand the French word for "me?" that I originally posted in response.
Clearly the standard of education in England has fallen significantly.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Sorry mods. You do speak French.
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#314 Now ...... your misquoting our great leader there .... steady or ill set my Jack Russell on you .... rodents have no chance .... as for oil .... dont be stupid ... oil is cheap just now ... do you think OPEC is gonna keep it low for long. The Arabs might have agreed to put some more dosh into the IMF but only so long as they can push oil back up... and of course Gordon makes some money of VAT on fuel .... anyway how did your post appear just like magic in front of everybody elses at #300
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#317 derekbarker
All of us (of all political persuasions) are committed to providing the attention and care you need.
However, you shouldn't expect your cure to be immediate.
These things take time, and the willingness of the patient to address his problems.
Best wishes
Compassionate Oldnat
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317 Derek i dinna understand you .... you take the piss out of my green electric train but then tell us about brass anti mrsa door knobs .... Next you will be telling us you invented gravity.
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My blocked posts contained the inappropriate text which followed the following headline in a West of Scotland broadsheet newspaper site.
Murphy in Icelandic cash talks as Norway offers to broker deal
I simply wondered what text was intended to follow that headline.
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#320 Wonder what they thought of my post #284 lol
Right good night ye all ... im off to Glenrothes tomorrow to hand out Vote Derek Barker posters .... cos hes obviously right ... tara the noo
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#323 rabbiehippo
Whatever condition derek has, it isn't gravity.
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#321
Rabbie, what will OPEC do if re-newables
ever take off, remember the target is now 80% re-newable energy by 2050.
For god sake Rabbie, are you suggesting that high oil prices and massive energy bills
are ok? are you happy to pay almost 50% more for your energy bills?
Do you think that if oil prices rise again
that it wont effect your type of empolyment.
like I've said Rabbie, your wee snapper is no match for my springer.
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#323
Rabbie, I was having a go at the projected cost to install such a massive operation,
even if it was only in Scotland, it would need a massive spend, dont you agree?
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#322
Oldnat, have you been on the bottle again
The history of the bottle neck part II
By the way, dont wear a hat
get yourself a wig....for god sake!
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G night Derek .... yer as mad as a bottle of crisps ....
ps oil .... oil will always be required for something ... maybe not burned in cars/ ships etc but still for lubrication (Im not talking smut here by the way lol).... so new oils will have to be developed .... mind you anti gravity cars are just around the corner... ;o)}
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#330
Rabbie, go to bed,
look I'm mean this, if your of to Glenrothes in the morning, good luck, remember, there is no substitute for honesty.
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331 Nah Derek im supposed to be working ..... but hey we have god on our side lol
'However, one of those who spoke to the Prime Minister but will be voting SNP is the Reverend Mitchell Collins, who is Mr Roy's next-door neighbour.
The Church of Scotland minister said he was impressed by Mr Brown and Mr Roy but added: "I vote SNP for one reason and that's to have a Scottish government. Gordon Brown is best for Britain and no one can hold a candle to him, but I still say Salmond is better for Scotland'
You better go to your bed ... youve got a war to wage on us arch nats ...
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#330
Yes, rabbie, the technology is far more advanced than most of us care to heed!
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#332
Rabbie, good nite, I'm not tieing a bow in any particular way? I have my concerns.
We agree to disagree on many issues.
I think we have to make the best of the now Scottish parliament,I HOPE WE CAN DO, BY REMAIMG PART OF THE UNION.
Rabbie, I to will respect the democratic decision from the by-election in Glenrothes.
It would be a sad state of affairs if we all
had the same political ideas.
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Aye good night buddy :o)}
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#221
Hi again.
I answered that question when you asked it in the last thread (#159 #174), but you chose not to listen, perhaps because you didn't like the answer?
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#145 regmitchell
"Don't want to see you digging yourself into a great big hole here. In fact under the terms of EU rules (296), member-states' defence contracts are specifically EXCLUDED from EU anti-competition legislation.
Placement of military contracts is entirely at the whim of the respective customer (i.e. that member-state's own government), irrespective of any other deal that might've been offered from elsewhere."
True 'grey' ships do not have to be put out to tender, which is why the fishery protection vessels where built in Poland. It is also true that it is the choice of the repscetive government where to award these contracts, however it does not mean that there is not a tendering process.
"Can you imagine the domestic political ramifications facing ANY nation's goverment that decided to outsource its own miltary hardware contracts whilst also having the capability to produce its own? Rather than imagine, amongst many examples take a look at Heseltine and the Westland Affair, or way back, Healey and TSR2."
Well, Thales, a french company, designed the carriers, as the French had originally ordered this ship for their navy also. That is, until the they pulled out and decided they wanted a nuclear powered carrier instead.
Having said that, before they pulled out, it had been the case that the french carriers structures were also to be built at these yards, then floated to the french to be assmbled and outiftted. Does that count as an EU country outsourcing? So it can be done?
In answer to you and Anaxim
"Of course, companies in an independent Scotland might still be invited to tender. However, being cynical, that could just be for price-comparison purposes before awarding the contract elsewhere, but perhaps (in the case of BAE and BVT etc) albeit even with Scottish sub-contractors."
and also
#158 Anaxim
"As I've said before, there's very little future for the Scottish shipyards in an independent Scotland, without the UK defence contracts. The SNP say the shipyards are 'world class', but when a nationalist calls something world-beating, it's very often not. Objectively, the yards compare poorly with the gigantic facilities in places like South Korea."
Having built naval vessels for Malysia and Brunei,after winning the contracts through an international tenderig process when MOD contracts were not forthcoming, I doubt it would be for price comparison only, nor would they be doomed as they aren't world class or 'gigantic' (size again!), think you'll find that they are world class facilities and that MOD contracts don't have to be the lifeblood of these yards.
"Shipbuilding is a fiercely cyclical business at the best of times, and it's about to enter the mother of all downturns. This will be prolonged by subsidies, which an independent Scotland is unlikely to be able to afford."
You say shipbuilding is very much cyclical (very true), and that its entering a downturn (when is it not?), have you any idea how long the carriers will take to build? The yards have work for a number of years yet my friend. Subsidies, don't make me laugh, why do you think so many yards have went to the wall while these are the ones that survived, subsidies? I think not, how about these yards have had to be more efficient, cheaper and on time with their builds than any of their competitors.
After the carriers are built, and if Scotland were to gain its independence, then the yards would have to do what they've been doing for the past three decades or more, fight for contracts.
"Note I'm dissatisfied with the naval contracts as they stand. The new aircraft carriers are not going to be nuclear-powered, severely limiting their effectiveness in a scenario where oil is scarce. The Type 45 destroyer is a terribly limited fighting machine regardless of the situation."
Not sure I agree with you on the Type 45, but I do agree with you regarding the fact that the carrier is not nuclear powered, I have my doubts too whether this a smart move on the part of the government and the MOD. But hey, if they want it, we'll build it.
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#162 brownedov
Thanks for the repsonse. Both you and oldnats ideas are intriguing, especially with respect to a second legislative body to keep the first in check and also how to avoid 'crowding' out rural areas regarding policy.
I'm sure questions will arise from what you have both said, hope you don't mind me asking other bits and pieces on this in the future.
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#318 oldnat
More likely a concern that you were traitorously reviving the "auld alliance" but they've let your #311 through now - perhaps to provide R-E an opportunity to use the c-word.
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#324 oldnat
"My blocked posts contained the inappropriate text which followed the following headline in a West of Scotland broadsheet newspaper site."
There's certainly still inappropriate text there at the time of writing with not a word about Murphy in it. That whole site is behaving strangely this morning, so it may be the mods got a 404 when they checked the link.
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337. "Subsidies, don't make me laugh, why do you think so many yards have went to the wall while these are the ones that survived, subsidies? "
Er....yes! That is exactly why so many yards have gone to the wall but these have survived! I don't see a mass of non-MOD contracts on their books, do you?
Shipbuilding across Europe, like much heavy industry, is a dying sector, one that has long moved and settled into into its new home in the Far East.
Derek, I see the nationalists are as wonderfully predictable as always.
1. When they don't have an argument, they make something up.
2. When they are losing an argument, they resort to insults.
You can take those to the bank.
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#338 ScotInNotts
You're welcome. Not a lot new today so will look in later.
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#341
If you read the post RE they did have a lot of non-MOD contracts on their books i.e. Malaysian and Brunei vessels.
Thank you, come again.
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337. "Well, Thales, a french company, designed the carriers, as the French had originally ordered this ship for their navy also. That is, until the they pulled out and decided they wanted a nuclear powered carrier instead."
The French pulled out, causing considerable delays to the eventual MOD contracts, due to funding concerns in the current economic climate. Nothing to do with choice of propulsion.
The French carrier will not be started until 2012 at the earliest now.
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#345
Think you'll find your wrong again, the French did pull out because they want a nuclear powered carrier.
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#341 Reluctant-to-be-Scottish
I see the unionists are as wonderfully predictable as always.
1. When they don't have an argument, they make something up.
2. When they are losing an argument, they resort to insults.
You can take those to the (nationalised) bank and 138% GDP Debt.
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The young nats are just pistol happy, shooting off when ever they can without any
substantive motive.
Makes you wonder just what exactly the nats say to people on the door step when their canvassing?when they clearly cant answer nor back up any of their commitments.
What I find about the nats, in their very odd behaviour, Is they are in government, yet! they expect the labour party to give them all the answers on how to govern.
Are the nats really that green? ( )
I like to think that when a political party makes a pledge, they do all they can to honour that said pledge.
How can you say! that you want to put an extra 1000 police officer on the streets, then reduce the actual police numbers by -45.
Any answers nats?
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343. And how many vessels, of how much tonnage, over how many years would that involve?
The construction of three offshore patrol vessels for Brunei and the part-construction of two light frigates (they are the two smaller vessels, the larger ship is one of those unnecessary contracts for the RN) for Malaysia over six years, would that be?
Hardly an example of a sustainable non-UK Govt order-book, is it.
Be serious. Why can't you just accept that the vast majority of European shipbuilding capability could not survive without Government contracts? The only major builds left in Europe nowadays are large warships for the UK, France, Germany and Italy, RORO ferries plus the occasional container ship/tanker/cruise liner. Other than that, it's small offshore/fishery vessels.
The overwhelming majority of the world merchant fleet (and so shipping in general) is now made in the Far East.
Did you know that a major contributor to the shrinking European share of global shipbuilding (now down to 10-15% of global share) was Korea speculatively expanding its construction in the 90s, leading to crashing hull prices which Europe couldn't compete with?
People might actually take nationalism a little more seriously if it involved an element of reality.
345. Is that so.
346. An example of 'nationalist rule no.1' in action.
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#346
Brian, do you not find it strange (odd)
when the majority of bloggers on here rant and rave about an Independent state
(freedom and all that)
Then as soon as an American billionaire offers 1Billion to buy up part of the north east, it's a done deal?
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345. Read this: http://www.defencetalk.com/news/publish/navy/French_defence_minister_casts_doubt_on_new_aircraft_carrier120015589.php
"Paris: French Defence Minister Herve Morin Sunday cast doubt over plans for a second aircraft carrier announced by President Nicolas Sarkozy, citing a cash crunch, and said a decision would be taken soon. It is clear that the budgetary situation concerning the equipment of our forces makes the construction of a second aircraft carrier difficult," the minister told Europe 1 radio and the TV5 Monde television channel."
And then this: http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/gaulle/
"The French Navy plans to build a second carrier to enter service around 2015, when the Charles de Gaulle is scheduled for refuelling and refit. These plans have been put on hold and a decision is not planned until 2011. The new carrier would not be the same class as the Charles de Gaulle, but would be a conventionally powered carrier. It would be built by DCNS."
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Malcolm/Thomas/Dean
#Various
On a point of pure pedantry, Britain (and with it 'Britishness) would still exist should Scotland become an independant nation. It is Great Britain that would no longer exist.
The most simplistic breackdown is as follows:
England +Wales = Britain
Britain + Scotland = Great Britain
Great Britain + N. Ireland = UK
UK + Republic of Ireland + IoM = British Isles
Following Scottish independence, it is arguable that the UK might still exisy but that it wuld be the United kingdom of Britain and N. Ireland, not Great Britain and N. Ireland as it is currently.
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The french would be wise to consider nuclear propoulsion, good job we didn't though or we would have had to turn down the work with The SNP's illogical ban on all things nuclear!
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#352 northhighlander
'The SNP's illogical ban on all things nuclear!'
Why illogical?
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#348 #350 RE
Thats right, three OPV's for Brunei and two Corvette's for Malaysia, with a further two Corvette orders having been secured.
You are also quite correct that major shipbuilding is now only done in Asia, and also that :
"The only major builds left in Europe nowadays are large warships for the UK, France, Germany and Italy, RORO ferries plus the occasional container ship/tanker/cruise liner. Other than that, it's small offshore/fishery vessels."
What I had said was that
a. when MOD contracts were not forthcoming we had managed to find orders elsewhere
b. if Scotland had independence then any naval ships would still be built in Scotland (small vessels like OPV's)
c. if, after independence the royal navy still required naval vessels I would still expect them to seriously consider using the facilities on the clyde, as with the exception of Vospers the clyde yards have had to finish off ships were they had encountered delays being built in both Swan Hunter and Barrow.
Finally, regarding the French carrier and its propulsion, the web links are very nice and may be the 'official' line, but having close links with both Thales and BAE I can tell you that the reason that the French pulled out is because the new carrier is not nuclear powered (like the de Gaulle).
Believe me, don't believe me, it's up to you, we'll see soon enough when the French announce a new nuclear powered carrier.
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#352 northhighlander
We wouldn't have to turn it down if it had nuclear propulsion, as it would've been outfitted in France anyway. The structure could be built here and then floated to France to be assembled and outfitted, as per the original plan.
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Thomas _Porter:
When you asked this:
"MalcolmW2 asked, "If Scotland becomes a sovereign, independent nation, just who do you see as forming the "British" government?" How do you feel about that? Do you agree with me, or Malcolm or do you hold a different theory?"
You misread what I had earlier posted. OldNat understood. You had claimed in #161 that after Scottish independence a "British" government would pick up the ongoing tab for military pensions of the British army, with Scotland only taking on future pension liabilities for its own, newly established forces. I was pointing out that there would be no "British" government, and that Scotland would continue to have a share of legal liabilty for previously shared responsibilities. If Scotland did leave the union, she would not do so with a blank sheet of debt; far from it. It would not be so simple as a one-off payment to England and Wales and then walk away. The devil as always is in the detail, and full independence would see economic implications that I doubt you (or Alex Salmond) have yet considered. These questions need to be both aired and answered before any decision on independence can be taken by the sensible people of Scotland. Nowhere did I suggest that "Britishness" would end, just a "Britain" in the sense of a political governance.
Having freed the genie from the bottle through devolution, there is no doubt that further, and this time properly though through, constitutional changes to the UK are needed, and will happen. England will get at least the same level of devolution as a nation, not a haphazard collection of "regions", that the Scots presently enjoy, but I suspect more will be needed. Maybe OldNat has the right idea, I am still considering it. What I don't support, for all manner of practical reasons, is the complete break-up of the UK in the way that the SNP propose. Does that make my position clearer?
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355
Ah! Principled politics at its best. It is OK to build nuclear warships as long as we have nothing to do with the nuclear bit.
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Nuclear Energy
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Quote
1. The world’s endowment of uranium ore is now so depleted that the
nuclear industry will never, from its own resources, be able to
generate the energy it needs to clear up its own backlog of waste.
2. It is essential that the waste should be made safe and placed in
permanent storage. High-level wastes, in their temporary storage
facilities, have to be managed and kept cool to prevent fire and
leaks which would otherwise contaminate large areas.
3. Shortages of uranium – and the lack of realistic alternatives –
leading to interruptions in supply, can be expected to start in the
middle years of the decade 2010-2019, and to deepen thereafter.
4. The task of disposing finally of the waste could not, therefore, now
be completed using only energy generated by the nuclear industry,
even if the whole of the industry’s output were to be devoted to it.
In order to deal with its waste, the industry will need to be a major
net user of energy, almost all of it from fossil fuels.
5. Every stage in the nuclear process, except fission, produces carbon
dioxide. As the richest ores are used up, emissions will rise.
6. Uranium enrichment uses large volumes of uranium hexafluoride,
a halogenated compound (HC). Other HCs are also used in the
nuclear life-cycle. HCs are greenhouse gases with global warming
potentials ranging up to 10,000 times that of carbon dioxide.
7. An independent audit should now review these findings. The
quality of available data is poor, and totally inadequate in relation
to the importance of the nuclear question. The audit should set
out an energy-budget which establishes how much energy will be
needed to make all nuclear waste safe, and where it will come
from. It should also supply a briefing on the consequences of the
worldwide waste backlog being abandoned untreated.
8. There is no single solution to the coming energy gap. What is
needed is a speedy programme of Lean Energy, comprising: (1)
energy conservation and efficiency; (2) structural change in
patterns of energy-use and land-use; and (3) renewable energy; all
within (4) a framework for managing the energy descent, such as
Tradable Energy Quotas (TEQs).
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#357
Principled politics? You sure you're on the right blog? :)
What I proposed was a way around the 'nuclear bit' as you put it, as we were never going to be involved with the propulsion anyway, conventional or nuclear, the French were always going to outfit their ships.
Personally I'm all for removal of the nuclear arsenal at Faslane and the cessation of new nuclear power plants being built in Scotland. The sooner the better. Inconvenient as it may be, what do you do with the nuclear waste at the end of the plants life? Dig a big hole and forget about it?
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Nuclear Energy
1. The world’s endowment of uranium ore is now so depleted that the
nuclear industry will never, from its own resources, be able to
generate the energy it needs to clear up its own backlog of waste.
2. It is essential that the waste should be made safe and placed in
permanent storage. High-level wastes, in their temporary storage
facilities, have to be managed and kept cool to prevent fire and
leaks which would otherwise contaminate large areas.
3. Shortages of uranium – and the lack of realistic alternatives –
leading to interruptions in supply, can be expected to start in the
middle years of the decade 2010-2019, and to deepen thereafter.
4. The task of disposing finally of the waste could not, therefore, now
be completed using only energy generated by the nuclear industry,
even if the whole of the industry’s output were to be devoted to it.
In order to deal with its waste, the industry will need to be a major
net user of energy, almost all of it from fossil fuels.
5. Every stage in the nuclear process, except fission, produces carbon
dioxide. As the richest ores are used up, emissions will rise.
6. Uranium enrichment uses large volumes of uranium hexafluoride,
a halogenated compound (HC). Other HCs are also used in the
nuclear life-cycle. HCs are greenhouse gases with global warming
potentials ranging up to 10,000 times that of carbon dioxide.
7. An independent audit should now review these findings. The
quality of available data is poor, and totally inadequate in relation
to the importance of the nuclear question. The audit should set
out an energy-budget which establishes how much energy will be
needed to make all nuclear waste safe, and where it will come
from. It should also supply a briefing on the consequences of the
worldwide waste backlog being abandoned untreated.
8. There is no single solution to the coming energy gap. What is
needed is a speedy programme of Lean Energy, comprising: (1)
energy conservation and efficiency; (2) structural change in
patterns of energy-use and land-use; and (3) renewable energy; all
within (4) a framework for managing the energy descent, such as
Tradable Energy Quotas (TEQs).
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Interesting comments on Radio 5 this morning from analysts blaming the too simplistic 2% inflation target for interest rates being too low, thereby fuelling high private debt and the housing boom.
How does this correlate with those standing alongside Salmond in saying the Eurozone is preferable to the pound, as "their interest rates are even lower"?
This nationalist policy has never made any sense as it is highly self-contradictory.
To complain that Scotland may be a low priority for the BoE but the 15-nation continent-biased ECB is somehow better;
To claim the BoE seeks to end Scottish banknotes but it doesn't matter if we join the Euro even though that will certainly end our banknotes;
And to claim Euro interest rates are better despite the eurozone economies and their inflationary pressures clearly having very little in common with ours.
These nationalist claims and beliefs, and the 'solutions', are just too inconsistent to be credible.
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359. Until renewables becomes a viable large-scale source, which may take decades if ever, we still need a broad-based generation capability in the medium term.
Oil has proved itself to be far too volatile and dirty.
Gas is just as expensive and is running out just as fast as the oil.
We only have our plentiful reserves of coal as a reliable source, although this is just as dirty as oil.
Remember, that the fuel used by each nuclear power station per year, barely takes up as much room as a small shipping container. Storage space is not a major concern and technology to treat/store/move it is always improving.
Nuclear is not pretty but, unfortunately, it is necessary.
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362
'Remember, that the fuel used by each nuclear power station per year, barely takes up as much room as a small shipping container. Storage space is not a major concern and technology to treat/store/move it is always improving.'
You don't just put it in a container and leave it. It takes decades to keep it cool before reprocessing etc and this all takes energy which is fast running out. There have been no improvements in safely dealing with the waste for decades and it is highly unlikely there ever will be. It's a failed technology long past it's sell by date.
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derekbarker:
It was proven long ago that Alex Salmond was misqouted by The Scotsman paper.
He never actually said that he would have put 100 bn into HBOS.
Any other issues you would like to make a fool of yourself with?
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#363 Your wasting your time ... he wont respond to that ..... like most people who like nuclear and think its great they dont think about afterwards..... look at Dounreay ..... its costing a fortune to clean up and one of the shaft exploded ... that plus the odd hot spot on the beech now and again. That would be a typical of RE and Labours policy .... buy now pay later .... when weve moved on to other things.
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Brian:
There should have been strict neutrality regarding this story; since it had a member of parliament, who also represents the government in London as a Minister...
~Dennis Junior~
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