Murphy's law
Jim Murphy has had a remarkably prolonged and successful career, considering he started out as an accidental MP.
A charismatic if combative Labour activist, he won what was then the safest Conservative seat in Scotland in the 1997 Tory wipe-out north of the Border.
His delight at victory mingled, I feel sure, with the thought that he was not long for the Commons.
Cyclical politics, he suspected, would take him out again.
However, he has instead strengthened his majority as the Tories struggle to regain the strength that once they wielded in Scotland.
Now it falls to Mr Murphy, a football-daft Glaswegian (is there any other kind - yes, I know there is), to serve as ambassador to the court of King Alex, mundanely known as Scottish Secretary.
As I have posted previously, the office of Scot Sec has been identified, repeatedly, for the political and historical scrap-heap.
Still it survives: partly because of the desire to keep an eye on the SNP in Edinburgh, partly because of qualms over the settlement in Northern Ireland which make it difficult to establish a single minister for the territories, for now.
To be fair, the job amounts to more than scrutinising the SNP - although that is core.
Mr Murphy will represent Scotland's interests in the UK Cabinet on reserved issues such as the economy, Europe and defence.
His office will liaise with the devolved machinery of government in Scotland.
But the political role is still to deal with fall-out from last May's elections.
Mr Murphy has direct and recent experience of that as Europe Minister.
He played a leading role in the Joint Ministerial Committee on Europe: which survived when other elements of the JMC mechanism fell into disuse. (That mechanism has now been revived and JMC Europe has been given an enhanced role.)
By various accounts, there have been some entertaining exchanges between Linda Fabiani, the Scottish Government minister for external affairs, and Mr Murphy.
We can, I suppose, expect more of the same - although Mr Murphy will be acutely aware too that over-zealous partisanship tends to deter the voters, especially when Mr Salmond's administration appears a mite more popular than Mr Brown's.
I gather that Mr Murphy had signalled to Gordon Brown his eagerness to re-engage in Scottish politics after a prolonged spell dealing with UK and European briefs. He now has his chance.
I'm 
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~54~RS~)
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"It is understood that Mr Browne was asked to stay on in Scotland and also offered Northern Ireland. He is said to have turned down both."
Does this not highlight Scottish Regional Labour's disdain and taking for granted the people of Scotland?
A McG
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So. We taxpayers pay for a huge salaried Governor General to oversee the leader we selected in Scotland. And what was wrong with the previous one? He had insulting our intelligence down to a fine art.
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Brian, is the core function of the Scottish Secretary really to scrutinise the SNP? Let's be charitable and say scrutinise the Scottish Government (which just happens to be the SNP at the moment). Isn't that task more appropriately undertaken by the opposition in the Scottish Parliament?
I do hope Jim Murphy spends more energy on the second function you mention, i.e. representing Scotland's interests (as opposed to Labour's interests - yes, there is a difference!) in the UK cabinet.
He has a delicate balancing act to perform for sure. And all the while he'll need to keep his eye on constituency matters. I guess if the Tories make a comeback anywhere in Scotland their former safest seat might be one place? Furthermore, the prospect of toppling a minister might make it a tempting place to concentrate Tory campaign efforts...
On a linguistic note I find something unsavoury about the proposed term "Minister for the territories". Territories of what? The UK? Westminster? England? It seems a short hop away from Minister for the colonies to me. BTW does this count as a conspiracy theory? ;o)
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One more thought. What was the timeline of all this ministerial musical chairs? From the Beeb's live text reports today it seems to be something like:
Now, I don't know about anyone else, but if these cabinet positions are as important as we're led to believe, wouldn't you expect the selection process to be a little more rigorous than: "sh*t, we need to find someone by 3pm!" I'm happy to be disproved on all this by the way, I do hope this isn't how it actually works!
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Brian,
Seems to me that Murphy is about to be as big a loser as McGhee (continuing your football analogy!
North of the border we may have heard more garbage from McGhee in recent months ('here I am Gordon, make me Scotland manager; here I am Vlad make me Hearts manager; oh so you were listening Mr Boyle, I'll accept that pay rise thank you'!) then we have from Murphy, but he is now SoSforS because others (in line saying no) have refused the appointment.
Seems to me like CHOOB, meets CHOOB appoints CHOOB, yet CHOOB remains!!.
And then there's Big Glum Gordy!!
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I've always been distrustful of career politicians, and I'm afraid that's exactly what Mr Murphy is.
The way the Tories are getting back on their feet in East Renfrewshire, I think his sojourn in the Cabinet will be a very short one.
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Jim Murphy. WHO?
Its another second choice as it was the fool Des Brown turned it down. He wont be missed and Mr Murphy will do nothing for Scotland as did his predecessor. Its a token job, Des knew it and Jim soon will.
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Just listening to Jim Murphy on radio Scotland. He mentioned lokking forward to working with "the leader of the MSP group", Ian Gray.
Not just Des Browne who puts puir wee Ian in his place then!
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Murphy's law
Will he know which side to butter his toast?
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So Des Browne felt that accepting the singular office of Secretary of State for Scotland would be perceived as an insult to the armed forces; what about the voters of Kilmarnock and Loudoun, should they feel insulted by such a statement accredited as it is in the media to Mr Browne?
If they feel insulted, which I as a resident of Fife feel, perhaps it is time to record their distaste for Mr Browne's statement when next confronted with their ballot paper at the next General Election.
This has more to do with Mr Browne's ego than any claimed slight upon the Armed Forces!
I have to date been impressed with what little I have observed of Mr Murphy's performances.
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As they're obviously more relevant here, I'll repeat the gist of my two posts re Murphy on the previous thread.
First, I can't agree with Brian's: "However, he has instead strengthened his majority as the Tories struggle to regain the strength that once they wielded in Scotland."
He wasn't on my original "Portillo" list, which I'll try to revise over the week-end, but he'll probably make the Top 5 and bring joy to Aunty Annabel's heart as in Renfrewshire East the Tories will need only a 7.02% swing to defeat him.
Those who watched the Lisbon Treaty debates in the House of Cards on BBC Parliament will remember him as the poor schmuck who was laden with the job of selling the rat-out over the referendum and almost everything else about that barrel of stinking fish for which the delicate noses of his cabinet superiors couldn't bear to be present in the chamber.
He could not win an argument with himself, let alone the FM who must be laughing his socks off yet again.
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I see he was once leader of the student's union, so was the head numptie Brown. No doubt Brown thought this makes him a kindred spirit , or does he think " this is a man who'll crawl on his belly when I say so". I suspect the latter. He'll be, like Dirty Des, be expected to keep Gray in his place ( with big Gord's backing ) , to report back on everything the Scottish government does, and to obstruct the SNP at every turn. If however if the Glenrothes by Election goes as well for him as Glasgew East then his job and that of his godfather isn't going to last long. The new prime minister Mandelson will probably have a real old clear out
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Surely, if devolution is a 'partnership' (as all seem to portray it), the Scottish Government - currently the SNP - should be sending a representative southwards to represent Scottish [Parliamentary] interests.
An ambassador, if you will.
Pass the Ferrero Rocher...
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The Wishaw Press has a totally different version of Browne's departure.
Browne, Kelly - how many Ministers told Brown "some months ago" that they wanted to quit?Complain about this comment
Oldnat .... he intended to step down from the Government next spring ? Forgive me but this is Autumn ... well could be winter by the snow we had today but a bit early either way.
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At least Des Browne, for all his faults, worked out there in the world and didn't transfer from school to uni to Labour party politics in one effortless move.
Jim Murphy is an apparatchik who has never done a real job in the real world in his entire life. It is matter of total astonishment to me that anyone ever thought he should have been allowed near Ministerial office in the first place much less be a Cabinet member.
And this is the person GB thinks is qualified to be Secretary of State for Scotland? Dear, oh dear.
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Shame he shuffled out Tom Harris, probably my favourite -and indeed the most engaging- Labour MP.
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brian
it would have been interesting if you had discussed why the scottish secretary job wasnt done away with.
You could have discussed the reasoning behind it.
As i understand it there is something about this position that is tied up in legislation the job appeared before the act of union and was done away with in 1746 at the time of the jacobite rebellion and wasnt used again for a number of years it would have been interesting if you had mentioned why this was.
As far as i am aware one T Bliar wanted to get rid of the postion but was told it would be very complicated to do so.
It would have been interesting if you had told us why this was the case.
Or dont you know?
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#17 BrianSH
I like Tom Harris's response to being sacked A Labour MP with a sense of humour - he'd no chance!
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19 ... That wasnt you that told him to come join the SNP was it, in the comments lol
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19 Sorry should have meant 17
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Nae me rabbie.
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#12 kaybraes
In order to take over from Brown, Mandelson would have a slight impediment to overcome. He is not an MP. Is that not why Brown has been so bold as to bring him back into the Cabinet? He can hardly mount a leadership bid from the House of Lords, which is where he is bound for.
When Lord Home became PM in 1963, he had to give up his peerage and get himself elected as an MP. Is there a safe Labour seat that Mandelson could be quickly parachuted into in the foreseeable future?
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kaybraes .... would Mandelson not have been out of a job anyway should Labour be kicked out. Does not being put in the House of Lords keep him in a job regardless of the election ... it sounds to me like a job for the boys ... maybe somebody can enlighten me ?
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#23 Safe seat? Glenrothes?
Is this the guy who on the night of the Glasgow East count, made rather a fool of himself on either the BBC or STV? Cannot remember all the details, but his lack of grasp of facts was all too apparent.
Sounds as if he might be right for this job.
By the way, where has novice Douglas Alexander been put? Or is he stepping down in the spring too?
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#23 - Glenrothes? lol
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Maybe someone can set you alight Rabbie
O' where you weealy bin
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Derek my wheelie bin is next to the cardboard recycle one. As for setting me alight ... wait till i die ... hows Peter Mandelson ?
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I watched Des Browne's defence of the need for the Scottish Office during the investigation on devolution by a Common's Select Committee. It was pathetic to say the least.
Co-operation between the UK and Scottish Governments is essential and is much better served via the JMC, where ministers can talk directly to their counterparts in other administrations. So the SNP Government pushed for reviving them when it came to power. It remains to be seen if Mr Murphy reduces his department as the workload has been shifted elsewhere, I'm not holding my breath though.
Having a Scottish Secretary in Cabinet is only of use if they stand up for Scotland. If Mr Murphy is just another Brown mouthpiece, then who cares if he is in Cabinet or not. Looks like he is putting Iain Gray in his place as Wee Jack was previously. Will they never learn?
Plus ça change......
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#25 - yes it was him on the tele for Glasgow East so at least he has some experience of what's in store for him I suppose.
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Rumours of Browne being close to a near nervous breakdown don't seem too far off the mark now. What will become of his pps wee Russell Brown of Dumfries?
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#20 rabbiehippo
Yep, we all have a sense of humour! :) But such a talented and honest individual (politician!) is wasted on Labour.
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I suspect that a strong reason for appointing Mr Murphy is that with the Tories a poor second, and the SNP only fourth,his Constituency is one of the few in Scotland that Labour can feel very confident of holding at the next UK Election.
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Does anyone remember when the good people of Glenrothes had an MP all of their own? Anyone know of any plkans this side of a general election to give them one again?
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Ahha, the penultimate question. According to Labour the good people of Glasgow East required their MP immediately. But King Brown the Wise and Talented apparently can 'look after' Glenrothes, Fife and Kirkaldy WHILST running the country. No wonder his government is in the mess it is!
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Not only Glasgow East. Look at the undue haste to shoe-in a hereditary rep in Crewe and Nantwich and how that turned out for them.
Perhaps they feel being able to take the credit for curing the global financial crisis will give them a better chance of prolonging the agony for the rest of us.
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37, you have hit the nail on the head.
It would appear that all is being done to save the Labour party but nothing is being done for the country.
What really irritates me is that the media , the so called quality press of Scotland is doing their part in saving the labour party with such biased gusto.
I am utterly ashamed of the BBC , STV ( but I don't HAVE to pay for them) and the Scottish Press which , with the exception of a few heroic journalists ,is merely producing Labour Party propaganda and free publicity for those who should really be in the stocks.
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#38 DisgustedDorothy
Everyone knows there is a bias in the system towards Labour.
But this one is ridiculous; why is there no-one asking the two most important questions, when is it and why has it taken so long?
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So Jim Murphy's job is to keep an eye on Alex Salmond, and here I was thinking that was Iain Gray's job.
Once more we see Westminster treat devolution with disdain, but this time it London Labour doing the dirty on it's own Labour MSPs.
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It was reported it would be on the 6th of November but it still hasn't been confirmed. How much notice to Labour need to give?
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I'm not sure it was reported, more imagined by those chaps DisgustedDorothy likes so much. Probably laying a false trail to keep us plebs quiet.
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#1 - no, it's recognition of the fact that post-Devolution there is no need for a full time Secretary of State for Scotland. And if one was appointed, the usual cabal would be howling about a waste of taxpayers' money.
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Despite deluding myself, I now have to concede that I am getting old, having calculated that more than 50% of the Cabinet are younger than I am.
(Margaret Beckett apparently is only 'entitled to attend Cabinet,' which sounds more like a punishment than a privilege if she has to be silent. If she had counted, than I could have still considered the Cabinet 'old fogies' rather than 'young upstarts.')
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#33 aye i had a look at his site .... seems a good guy ... mebbe a change is what he needs !
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For the purposes of clarity, there is no great conspiracy about the failure to call the Glenrothes bye-election, the writ cannot be moved until Parliament is in session which is not until 6th October.
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The formation of a new National Economic Committee chaired by Peter Mandelson and which, it would appear, includes the Secretaries of State from Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland is the Government's response to the global economic crisis and will be likely to be empowered to initiate Orders in Council to free up the banking system in the first instance, followed by concerted action on food and energy prices before the onset of winter.
They are likely to recommend emergency powers to the Government along the lines of that of the National Economic Development Council (Neddy) which existed for a similar purpose in the seventies and eighties.
That the U.S. government has now agreed to the 700 billion dollar rescue package to take toxic debt out of the system is likely to result in a dramatic drop in fuel and food prices and to encourage banks who are currently sitting on a mountain of cash to start lending again.
The main problem is that no one knows how much toxic debt as a result of sub-prime loans is flushing through the system and how long the 700 billion dollars will act as a laxative on the financial system.
We live in interesting times - Old Chinese curse.
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Once, many years ago, I read a book called "The Dice Man" by Luke Rhinehart.
I get the impression GB has been reading it too and has decided to put into practice a similar methodology to decide on his cabinet shuffle.
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I'm touched by the idea that the Scottish Secretary is charged with the role of standing up for Scotland. Given the endless, calculated stridency emitting from Holyrood, the Scottish Secretary's job is to stand up to Scotland in the interests of the rest of the UK.
Got to agree though, the role is now something of an anachronism and I'm sure that MI5 can do a much better job of keeping an eye on the SNP than a 3rd choice MP.
Just to get you all going;-)
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Anglophone:
I would not be suprised if the London Government uses MI5 to keep an eye on the Scottish Nationalist Party. They have, after all been used to undermine Scottish Independence and track the Nationalists movement before.
The Scottish Secretary should be appointed by the Scottish Government. It would better represent the people of Scotland, rather then the London Governments party line.
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#49, don't you know Anglophone MI5 are keeping an eye on you too.........
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#50, Thomas_Porter
"Scottish Nationalist Party"
I haven't heard of this political party; is it a splinter group from the Scottish National Party?
Do tell...
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#52.
Ah whoops. I didn't notice the spelling error.
I meant to say Scottish National Party.
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Anglophone, just a little question for you. Do you actually think that MI6/5 should be allowed to act in Scotland, and take a hostile attitude to the Democratic Principles of any Civilised Country, and if so how would you justify such action?.
Lets not forget that the imbalance between Scotlands voting limit in Westmonster is dwarfed by the huge amount of English MP's. If your country was in the same position as a result of being members of the EU, would you genuinely be happy about that?.
To take the point one step forward, if the EU posted a European Secretary of State to monitor the actions of Westmonster, who at the same time gave support to a pro euro political party, to try undermine the democratically elected government of the land, just what would be the reaction of the English People?.
Dont imagine I will get an honest answer from a person who grew up in a nation that taught the people that they are in fact the British People and Scotland is a mere territory of that system?.
Try to be both sensible and honest mate.
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Maybe some anti-SNP wags will form a "Scottish Nationalist Party" just to try to take votes away from the SNP; I seem to recall some bother a few years ago about a group calling themselves "Literal Democrats" and the LibDems went on to lose (or failed to win) a marginal seat.
My view then as now was, if you can't be bothered to find out the name of the PERSON you intend voting for, you've got no business voting at all.
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The most puzzling aspect of statements made by London Controlled New Labour Politicians about assisting an opposition party to target the Democratically Elected Scottish Government, is the reaction by the Unionist Scottish People which in general endorse such actions.
Fight the SNP Scottish Government in anyway you Unionists want. I dont have the slightest problem with you doing that providing it is legally carried out. The thought that the British Government is attempting to immorally undermine MY Peoples Goverment, simply re enforces MY determination to see Scotland TAKE ITS INDEPENDANCE BACK.
I'll be honest and let you know that both my parents and grandparents were firm Nationalists. My brothers,sisters, cousins, uncles and aunts are all Nationalists. Being brought up by family that take Scotlands Right to Run its own affairs and control their own countries future, It is a total puzzle to me that it hasnt always been the case. It is a totally normal state to be in for the 5 million Scots.
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#55...
Some however, may just as honourably vote for the principles of the party, rather than the individual; especially in Westmidden elections, where FTTP is the be all and end all.
#56
I'm glad it's not just me who thinks the same way!!
We, as a people, have for too long thought "Thou shalt not", rather than "Thou shalt"!
If we are to control our destiny more effectively, we MUST wrest control from what is, in effect, a foreign power.
The rise in popularity for the SNP is not only a gesture to Labour; it's a sense of identity!
How some Scots can doubt their own abilities is beyond me, regardless of distribution of "resources".
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To further agitate the Unionists; do you think we are going to re-build Hadrian's wall? Don't you think having a nearby friendly neighbour, with historical ties and many immigrants on either side within the EU, would actually strengthen the (former) UK's position in Europe?
More voting power through being independent for both England and Scotland; if acting together. Methinks it would bolster Plaid Cymru in Wales!
Imagine the scene; four countries (including Ireland), forming a "block-vote" in Europe. It would undoubtedly have a beneficial effect on farming and fishing policies for a start!!
I'm sure many more intelligent posters could give more examples of how this would benefit us all.
I can't see any down-side! Opinions, please......
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Oops, my #57 should have been FPTP- First Past The Post, not FTTP!!
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#58, gt-cri
We might even stand a chance in the Eurovision Song Contest...
(Got to get our priorities right, :-0)
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47. At 1:24pm on 04 Oct 2008, Jeremiad
"That the U.S. government has now agreed to the 700 billion dollar rescue package to take toxic debt out of the system is likely to result in a dramatic drop in fuel and food prices and to encourage banks who are currently sitting on a mountain of cash to start lending again."
Thats just a drop in the bucket.
http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/
And don't think we are out of the woods if one runs an economy on credit the outcome long term outlook is not good.
http://www.spectator.co.uk/the-magazine/features/2088001/the-great-debt-deceit-how-gordon-brown-cooked-the-nations-books.thtml
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# 60, The_Forfarian
"A Song for Scotland"? Presented by Jackie Burd? LOL...The Krankies would win every time!
"A Song for England"? Presented by Trevor McDonald? LOL.....Jordan would win it every time
"A Song for Wales"? Presented by Aled Jones? LOL.....They'd all win every time, 'cos they'd all be in the band!!
Seriously off-topic, as were my other posts but can anyone think of anything else to say about the new "Scottish Secretary"?
;-]
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# 61
Too true. Thanks for the links.
Do he no remember the oil-price link to fuel and food-prices....we were moaning about that before we noticed the banks were not lending to each other, shares were being short-sold and fund-managers were buying "black-boxes" of dodgy-mortgages?
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I wonder if Jim Murphy sees the Scotland Office job as a promotion or not.
Sure, he gets into the Cabinet - and, as a Privy Councillor, will be styled "The Rt Hon" from now on - but as a typical career politician, will he truly be satisfied with the level of work demanded, and the level of influence offered, by his new job?
Des Browne showed his contempt for the role when he declined (refused?) to serve as full-time Secretary of State for Scottish Affairs; and the Scotland Office Press Release regarding Murphy's new job concedes that "This appointment means that Scotland will have a dedicated voice in the Cabinet for the first time since 2003."
Perhaps Murphy's "eagerness to re-engage in Scottish politics" is because he expects to be rejected by the electorate in 2010 and will then be scrambling for a place on the Labour List for Holyrood 2011.
If, as is expected, Labour suffer many casualties in the next Westminster election north of the border, there will be an opportunity for Labour to recruit politicians of talent (if not worth) to bolster both the party in, and the institution of, the Scottish Parliament.
What an irony it would be if, successful in securing independence, the first election thereafter was to see the SNP defeated and a Labour administration installed...
(I'll have to go now, to shovel up the aftermath of the flock of pigs which have just flown by...)
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#46 Jeremiad
"For the purposes of clarity, there is no great conspiracy about the failure to call the Glenrothes bye-election, the writ cannot be moved until Parliament is in session which is not until 6th October."
Plain wrong, I'm afraid.
#39 BrianSH
"But this one is ridiculous; why is there no-one asking the two most important questions, when is it and why has it taken so long?"
Spot on!
#35 jameswhaleforpm
#41 stubbzysnp
For info
The by-election could have been held on 11 September per the full rules Rosa Prince of the Torygraph published in her Official rules on by-elections during recess of 13 August.
According to Martin Kettle of the Grauniad in his Go early and take the hit - or go late and risk a knockout? of 15 August, the latest possible date is 4 December, which I have seen reported elsewhere, although that would presumably rely on someone actually reporting MacDougall's absence to the Speaker at Westmidden before then.
PS: credit to oldat who reported the Rosa Prince link in his #532 (2nd page!) of Brian's Sympathy and sensitivity thread.
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#40 - they will need to at least 'double mark' Salmond, incidentally it might have been to their benefit if either Gray or Murphy were competent politicians.
November 6th was reported from the floor of the Labour Party Conference - although maybe the fact they were going to lose Glenrothes amongst even Unite Union Members put them off somewhat.
This delay shows how ridiculous the current system is. Not only is there a systematic bias across both England and Scotland to Labour in terms of vote distribution = representation; the powers held by the (in this case unelected) British executive are near tyrannical!
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I don't know too much about Jim Murphy but I do recall gasping with astonishment and delight when he won Renfrewshire East, a seat that was occupied by Betty Harvey Anderson of the CP with a 26,000 majority when I was courting my now wife who lived in that area back in the 60's
However, I see his favourite movies are Spartacus and 12 Angry Men so he can't be that bad.
As a former Labour supporter of some 40 years who changed to the SNP because of their proposal to replace the unfair Council tax the punisher of pensioners and the poor and protector of the better off, I would say to Mr Murphy - 'tell Labour to wake up' they have been ignoring this issue for far too long and I know of many people who are now supporting the SNP purely because of this factor - it is a disgrace that the SNP are advocating fairness in taxation whilst Labour supports the position that the better off pay less than their fair share and some who use the same services and have a reasonable or good income pay nothing at all.
If Labour don't sort this out people like myself will have no other recourse but to ensure that the SNP becomes the permanent face of Scotland.
This may not get printed as one of the moderators frequently blocks any posts on this issue.
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PS to my #65.
For those, like brigadierjohn who don't wish to follow links, and because it is even more relevant now than when it was written, you may be interested in the sage words of the Grauniad's Martin Kettle (usually considered a friend of NuLab) summing up on 15 August: "The crucial political question about Glenrothes is whether a defeat there will trigger a challenge to Brown. There are no easy answers, but the impact of a November defeat in Glenrothes on a relaunched, reshuffled and even modestly resurgent Labour party would in my view be much more damaging to Brown than the impact of a September defeat on a Labour party fully braced for the loss and ready, in the aftermath, to stand by its leader as he attempts to turn things around."
No prizes for guessing which option "Duff" Gordon has chosen.
Those of a gambling inclination may care to note that Paddy Power's odd's at SNP 2-9; Labour 11-4; Lib Dems 40-1; Conservatives 66-1 are unchanged since August.
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#66 pattymkirkwood
"This delay shows how ridiculous the current system is. Not only is there a systematic bias across both England and Scotland to Labour in terms of vote distribution = representation; the powers held by the (in this case unelected) British executive are near tyrannical!"
Well said! The only point I would is that although many in England will "vote with their wallets" for the Tories, there are still quite a few who believe that the reform of Westmidden is even more important.
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# 65
No, Brownedov, I am afraid that it is you who are plain wrong and I would humbly suggest that you read the Telegraph article again.
If the Return of the Late Member is not in the hands of the Crown Clerk fifteen days before the last sitting on the House then the writ cannot be moved until the House is again in session or 6th October.
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gt-cri states:
"How some Scots can doubt their own abilities is beyond me, regardless of distribution of "resources". "
The nationalists' post-independence economic plan is an oil-underwritten corporate bordello, indicating they doubt the abilities of the Scottish people. Obviously Scots can't compete with places like Germany in quality, efficiency, productivity, management or technology. Let's cut taxes and create a slanted playing field instead!
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Scottish Office Secretary!
From what I have read it is a post which has no powers but the MP who takes up this task has Dover House as their residence giving them a pad to show off.
http://www.scotlandoffice.gov.uk/history/dover-house/scotland-office.html
It appears no matter who takes up this job they are subservient to their masters in Westminster. It was qite intersting to come across link which could be construed as that the Tories don't know where Scotland is the shadow sec 3 years ago Eleanor Laing, Epping Forrest. Is that near Watford?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4563591.stm
Where was I oh! yes conclusion this now full time post can only be to thwart the SNP at every opportunity using whatever power of the Party here in Scotland and at Control Centre.
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For what it is worth I am sure the anti-Labour forces in politics want Duff Gordon to survive by Labour holding onto Glenrothes. (The same anti-Labour forces wanted him to lose Glasgow East. )
Duff is getting a good press at the moment
which is being orchestrated to dampen Labour desires to replace him.
The plan is to have lame duck Brown facing the Tories at the next election and not some more formidable Labour figure.
I wonder how many decent Labour members understand how this is being manipulated.
This will all conspire to make an SNP victory at Glenrothes very difficult and the odds on that , quite frankly, are ludicrous.
Should Labour hold Glenrothes the media blitz on Brown will recommence in the New Year
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Anaxim:
"The nationalists' post-independence economic plan is an oil-underwritten corporate bordello, indicating they doubt the abilities of the Scottish people."
Are you not past the stage of attempting to create trouble? This comment is nothing more but negativity which will only stir trouble between the Nationalists and Unionists.
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71. At 9:05pm on 04 Oct 2008, Anaxim
"The nationalists' post-independence economic plan is an oil-underwritten corporate bordello, indicating they doubt the abilities of the Scottish people. Obviously Scots can't compete with places like Germany in quality, efficiency, productivity, management or technology."
Could you please show some evidence in how you are able to come to those opinions, because that is all they are your opinions of which you are perfectively entitled to, that doesn't make them correct.
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54 Scottishrepublic
errr...I think that you should get up to speed with blogging etiquette. The ;-) symbol denotes that the remark is tongue in cheek and meant as wee jokey!
The fact that you took the post on board and wrote a trenchant response speaks volumes for the levels of paranoia in your circles.
#58 Gt-cri
I'm amused by the idea that an independent Scotland would be a voting block ally of England in the EU. I can't imagine anything more unlikely. The SNP, assuming that it still the dominant political party relies almost entirely on stirring up visceral feelings of resentment against the English. I can only assume that given the normal highs and lows of economic and political life, this card would be played routinely as a "get out of jail" with its own electorate.
I would also assume that Scotland in the EU would be far more likely to routinely cut deals with players wishing to weaken any "pan-British" position, at the expense of its supposedly friendly neighbours if there was an advantage to be had.
It's a nice idea but flies in the face of history and reality.
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#71 Anaxim
"The nationalists' post-independence economic plan is an oil-underwritten corporate bordello, indicating they doubt the abilities of the Scottish people. Obviously Scots can't compete with places like Germany in quality, efficiency, productivity, management or technology. Let's cut taxes and create a slanted playing field instead!"
1. WRONG! You are confusing myself, as a Nationalist, with the SNP, as a Political Party; however, reducing corporation taxes for small businesses is intended to encourage enterprise. I seem to remember a wee neighbour of ours doing the same and becoming the Celtic-Tiger economy! If that equates to a slanted playing-field then give me a bulldozer! I don't think I'll be alone in my willingness to operate it!
2. WRONG! "Oil underwritten corporate bordello". Sounds a wee bit like it was in the early 80's when the blue unelected team governed Scotland. Now, as previously posted, we have a Red team with an unelected captain governing, who, like the blue team, are incapable of controlling the economy in any part of the UK, let alone in Scotland.
You follow the same old unionist mantra; Scotland's people don't know how to sort their own affairs and need the big neighbour to do it for them. Also, Scotland can't survive because they over-estimate their oil-revenue and it'll be gone soon, with nothing to replace it- nonsense!!!
What makes you think that the Scots won't have enough gumption to take the SNP to task, if they attempt to sell their country to "big-industry". All those former Labour voters won't forget their socialist back-grounds, will they?
Do you think the SNP shall scrap the elections? Unlike Westmidden, the Scottish Parliament elections cannot be rigged, by the incumbent FM playing with timing, through offering jam today, at the price of no bread tomorrow!
All unionists have failed Scotland. People are gradually waking up to that. It will continue, regardless of the SNP's performance and, if they make a hash of their next term, they shall be replaced by...Labour, or Conservatives who will have the opportunity to do better! Only this time, they shall have to honour their commitment to Scotland, rather than the UK; because the latter shall no longer exist!
Again, I can't see the downside! Wee Eck knows that his Party are a vehicle for Independence; they have to prove themselves fit for governing Scotland, or they shall be out on their ear!
Have a little faith in the people; we aren't known for being stupid, merely canny and resistant to change.....but it's happening and a change is gonna come (as somebody famous once said- Otis Redding, I think it was!
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#70 Jeremiad
"No, Brownedov, I am afraid that it is you who are plain wrong and I would humbly suggest that you read the Telegraph article again."
And I'm afraid that your #70 is as "plain wrong" as your #46. I do, however, apologise for linking to the Torygraph's "Janet & John" version, which perhaps gives rise to confusion over the meaning of "the return of the late Member".
To clarify this and other points, the HoC Library issued an explanatory note SN/PC/00529 on 1 September 2008. As the mods are very iffy about direct links to PDF documents, I can't quote the link directly, but it should be the first "hit" if you Google "recess elections act 1975 SN/PC/00529", which also gives a "View as HTML" option.
The key para is: "The Act states that the Speaker may not issue the writ if the return of the late Member has not been brought into the office of the Clerk of the Crown at least 15 days before the end of the last sitting of the House of Commons. This means that the return showing that the deceased Member had been elected as a MP must have been received at least 15 days before the House rose for the recess."
Also of relevance is another death during the summer recess: "The most recent election to be held as a result of the use of this Act was the by-election in Livingston on 29 September 2005 following the death of Robin Cook. The writ was moved on 8 September 2005."
If you disagree with the foregoing, please quote sources rather than unsupported allegations.
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#71 Anaxim
"Obviously Scots can't compete with places like Germany in quality, efficiency, productivity, management or technology. Let's cut taxes and create a slanted playing field instead!"
You may be right (although I hope you're not), and I'm on record here as preferring a (con)federal solution to full independence, but the tax-cutting approach for industry certainly doesn't seem to have hurt the Irish Republic.
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76
Anglophone
Poor stuff. Are you getting sleepy.
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The Recess Elections Act 1975 allows a writ for a by-election to be moved during a prorogation of Parliament or adjournment of the House.
Quite definitive.
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#73 sneckedagain
I think there's more than a grain of truth in what you say about certain London media but I think the Daily Record's "Gordon Brown to join Labour's fight for Glenrothes" shows that both Roy and Brown are less than sure they'll retain it.
We'll have to wait for some meaningful poll data, but I wouldn't bet the house against the SNP just yet.
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Brownedov
I wouldn't disagree with any of your references. But it seems to me that if the Return of the Late Member was in the hands of the Crown Clerk why did the Speaker not place the notice in the London Gazette as required by House rules or are you suggesting that the Crown Clerk and/or Speaker is under the control of the Prime Minister. That is a very serious allegation indeed.
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#81 oldnat
Thanks for the confirmation and sorry I couldn't link directly to your original post in my #65, but I'm afraid that direct links to posts above #500 have defeated me to date. I'm sure they're possible, though, and will work on them in a quiet backwater of these blogs when time permits.
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#71 Anaxim
Scotland has world leading industries in off shore oil, sub sea technologies, other oil and gas infrastructure, nano technologies, life sciences, investment funds management, the drinks industry (little know fact - Smirnoff and Morgan's Old Spice for example are manufactured in Fife), high quality farm produce eg grass fed beef and seed potatoes, medical physics, computer software development etc etc etc -
I don't think a slanted playing field is necessary but if the Scottish Government can create one it can only help to redress the cronic health and poverty record that the much vaunted union has allowed to persist ever since Scotland was rent apart by the First War.
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Why is that posts sometimes get referred to the moderators almost immediately?
The latest is Jeremiad 83- not a political ally of mine, but whatever the content, unless it is offensive or obscene, I would wish to see it and judge for myself.
I do not believe this is right or proper in what we continue to think, against all evidence, is a free speaking democracy.
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#83 Jeremiad
Did anyone see #83 before it was referred to the mods? I certainly didn't, but would like to see it whatever it said.
If nobody did see, it may have been because of link problems, Jeremiad, so if it included a link the mods may be questioning automatically (PDF &c.) then perhaps you'd re-post with a Google search phrase instead.
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It seems that the mods. did not like the legal implications of my last post so I will reword it and hope it passes muster this time.
Brownedov and oldnat:- if what you say is correct concerning the Recess Elections Act and House Rules how have the Government managed to delay the writ for the bye-election?
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#76 Anglophone
"I'm amused by the idea that an independent Scotland would be a voting block ally of England in the EU. I can't imagine anything more unlikely. The SNP, assuming that it still the dominant political party relies almost entirely on stirring up visceral feelings of resentment against the English. I can only assume that given the normal highs and lows of economic and political life, this card would be played routinely as a "get out of jail" with its own electorate.
I would also assume that Scotland in the EU would be far more likely to routinely cut deals with players wishing to weaken any "pan-British" position, at the expense of its supposedly friendly neighbours if there was an advantage to be had.
It's a nice idea but flies in the face of history and reality."
That would be the past 301 years of history, perhaps?
And why Scotland would cut deals, at the expense of it's nearest trading partners is just plain daft and blinkered! If we attempt to "ruin" the English, the mass-immigration from south to north would not help the Scots!
As EU members, we couldn't stop it!
You're verging on the racist there, my laddie! You suggest we shall conspire against the English. Now it's not only nationalists who will scupper England; it's all Scots, is it?
Give examples of this "stirring up" those SNP barbarians are meant to be relying upon, I must have missed it.
Your foul-ranting shows a fear of what Scotland may become, rather than helping to ensure it does not become what you fear!
I feel sorry for you, if this is your outlook on life.
But, on a more positive note:
You've given the independence movement further assistance- keep it up!!
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Anglophone,
"I wasted a whole day on the previous blog and ended up, to my shame as one of the pedants slugging it out at the end. Never again! Please refer to previous submissions and goodbye!
PS: Just beacuse there is oil in the North Sea it doesn't atumatically follow that there are major reserves elsewhere as suggested.
Yours faithfully
Petroleum Geologist and Sceptic"
An excerpt from one of your previous blog posts. I have come upon types like you many times (mostly offshore, strangely)! You are always trying to start fights in empty rooms; you're very good at dismissing other's opinions, while taking no part in making things better through your own ideas- a "Sceptic" (as a title-note the proper noun).
I have a neighbour who is a Petroleum Engineer and his views on the future of the N.Sea oil industry contrast to yours. You do not have the monopoly on crystal balls, I'm afraid.
I fear you risk becoming our new Head Troll, as D Barker's posts have become more decipher-able!
Stick to looking backward- it's very easy to use the past and project it forward but that very rarely means the future will be as you predict. Like I said, a change is gonna come and I fear you shall be the one who has no part in it.
Unfortunately, you didn't keep your word on being a pedant! Could you manage to honour the second promise; "Never again"?
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Anything to avoid a by-election! according to the Herald.
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#86 impeachblair
I think the latest version of the blogging software automatically refers posts containing certain links and/or words. It happened to me in the past week when the only thing possibly "wrong" with the post was a URL which contained ".pdf" although it didn't actually point to a PDF file but a Google search.
IMO, such referrals should contain the word "automatically" and all other referrals should contain the moniker of the referrer (unless I'm mistaken, only registered users can complain).
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#88 Jeremiad
Simple: Nobody has "officially" told The Speaker of the vacancy.
We may disagree - although I suspect it's a simple misunderstanding so far - but I'm truly sorry your post was referred whatever it contained.
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Since Labour got back in 97, the Scot Sec job has been one of those ' it's a dirty job but someone has to do it'. Look at the list:
Donald Dewar
John Reid
Helen Liddle
Alistair Darling
Douglas Alexander
Des Browne
Jim Murphy
Now, I'll give Dewar the benefit of the doubt, but none of them would have wanted the job. They would all have been appointed to keep an eye on the rebellious Scots and report back to Westminster. Did any of them, except Dewar, actually do anything for Scotland? That tells you all you need to know about these people.
Freedom
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#67 (QT thread) oldnat
Re the role of Mr Murphy, I wonder if you've seen the Edinburgh Evening News' 'Scottish Secretary now has a vital role'. I thought you might appreciate their totally unbiased: "[His] mission – which he has chosen to accept – is to restore Labour's position in Scotland at a time when the SNP is in charge at Holyrood and still riding high in the opinion polls".
Funny that, as I thought state funding of political parties was still at the planning stage.
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Apologies if anyone's already linked to it, but rather than Murphy, the Grauniad's Severin Carrell thinks that Mandelson is the man the SNP really fears.
Any takers? My own take is that the FM is probably still helpless with mirth at the reshuffle.
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#88 Jeremiad
The "convention" is that two MPs of the party holding the seat officially inform the Speaker that the Member is dead, and precipitate the by-election process.
Any 2 MPs can, in fact do so, but normally this would only happen if the party failed to call it within a "reasonable" period (3 months, I think, unless a general election is looming).
Of course, the people of Glenrothes are not really being short changed, since Scottish MPs only deal with reserves powers for their constituents, and consequently have very little work to do!
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#91 oldnat
Gut-wrenchingly true to form, I suppose. Obviously not only is SoS for Scotland a non-job, but so is being an MSP according to NuLab.
I'd make a tasteless remark about the Prince of Darkness and the departed if I thought it would get past the mods.
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# 69 Brownedov - absolutely Labour are so far gone in England in a sense it doesn't matter how Scotland votes (it was a great reason for devolution in the past, and is another reason for independence now).
# 91 Old Nat - That is just an absolute joke, at this rate one wonders how much longer we will be allowed to vote at all!
I am sorry I know how the above statement must sound, but how can anyone respond differently to that?
Glenrothes must go without an MP for how long to favour the Labour Party?
Mortherwell must effectively go without an MSP for 'a number of years' if that is to be believed!
You would laugh, if it wasn't such an infringement on the rights of the people.
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#99 pattymkirkwood
Agreed - laughing or crying seem the only options.
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Following Ms Kelly's abdication from pole position and "Duff" Gordon's reshuffle, my cut-out-and-keep "Portillo" list from the end of July is now outdated and so, as a public service, here is a revision including the "other cabinet attendees":
Rank, Swing, Incumbent, 2nd, Constituency
1, 3.37%, Jacqui Smith, Con, Redditch
2, 4.66%, Tony McNulty, Con, Harrow East
3, 6.52%, Margaret Beckett, LD, Derby South
4, 7.02%, Jim Murphy, Con, Renfrewshire East
5, 8.25%, Alistair Darling, Con, Edinburgh South West
6, 8.27%, John Hutton, Con, Barrow & Furness
7, 9.58%, Jack Straw, Con, Blackburn
8, 9.59%, Liam Byrne, LD, Birmingham Hodge Hill
9, 10.76%, John Denham, Con, Southampton Itchen
10, 11.82%, James Purnell, Con, Stalybridge & Hyde
11, 11.94%, Nick Brown, LD, Newcastle East & Wallsend
12, 12.15%, Geoff Hoon, Con, Ashfield
13, 13.12%, Shaun Woodward, LD, St Helens South
14, 13.37%, Ed Balls, Con, Normanton
15, 16.99%, Alan Johnson, LD, Hull West & Hessle
16, 17.48%, Douglas Alexander, LD, Paisley & Renfrewshire South
17, 17.58%, Hazel Blears, LD, Salford
18, 20.04%, Ed Miliband, Con, Doncaster North
19, 20.33%, Hilary Benn, LD, Leeds Central
20, 20.38%, David Miliband, LD, South Shields
21, 20.56%, Paul Murphy, Con, Torfaen
22, 21.79%, Gordon Brown, SNP, Kirkcaldy & Cowdenbeath
23, 23.14%, Yvette Cooper , Con, Pontefract & Castleford
24, 23.26%, Harriet Harman, LD, Camberwell & Peckham
25, 23.67%, Andy Burnham, Con, Leigh
The list may look a mess but should copy and paste into any spreadsheet program as CSV. The column headed 2nd shows the party of the runner-up in 2005, who need the stated Swing to prevail next time.
As predicted, Murphy is only just outside a podim position in 4th. Surprisingly, of the four with Scottish seats, only "Duff" Gordon had an SNP runner-up last time.
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Brownedov, thats quite an impressive list
I do consider you, on the ball, with your politics, thats for sure.
I wonder if you think that the position of swing in politics is now at an unprecedented
level, I believe that there was such a thing as a safe seat, however I must admit in todays social climate, has such a thing as a safe seat gone.
Brownedov, would it be good for society in general, if voters swayed between parties in terms of votes,or would it lead to a no overall position of control, that becomes static in terms of delivering legislation.
I do think we are living in very interesting times, however I do have concerns that the whole of our structured society could collapse, due to the fact, the politics cant deliver for us all and the public are becoming
more hostile to politicians in general.
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Sunday Mail (not that I am a regular reader) suggesting the Dice Man (GB) has rolled the dice again for a bit more reshuffling and David Blunkett may be coming back into the cabinet. Another one who took advantage of his position in government for personal purposes and was found out.
Thats 2 bad eggs so far. Do you reckon he may make a move for Geoffery Archer and Jonathan Aitken and ask them to cross the divide and join up. After all they have plenty of "inside" information.
Who knows maybe Neil Hamilton and David Mellor might be invited as well for their life experiences.
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#90 AngloPhone or AngloPhoney? strikes me he's more phoney than phone.
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To those citing Ireland's example as a success of the low-tax economy, there are two key differences between Scotland and Ireland. Ireland reduced taxes partly by cutting public services to the bone, delivering efficiency of a sort.
Whether such cuts are morally justified is one thing, but there little appetite for them in Scotland, particularly among nationalists, who are often very statist.
In contrast, using oil money to underwrite taxes is just an accounting trick to make unprofitable businesses profitable, and profitable businesses complacent. Relying on treasure rather than hard work almost never works. Just ask the Romans.
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#105 Statist moi? no I think you mean the Labour party when you talk of statism in UK or Scottish politics.
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#102 derekbarker
Thank you. A thoughtful post , Derek, so I'll try to give you a thoughtful response.
"I must admit in todays social climate, has such a thing as a safe seat gone."
I certainly hope so, because I believe that a "comfortable" government is a sloppy one.
"would it be good for society in general, if voters swayed between parties in terms of votes,or would it lead to a no overall position of control, that becomes static in terms of delivering legislation."
I really don't see how a government can claim to have a mandate without a majority of the electorate behind them, and I don't suggest that any party will ever have "all" the right answers.
I know you're no fan of the SNP, but I suspect you'd have to grudgingly admit that they haven't done too badly with their minority government over the past year in getting things done at Holyrood on a consensus basis. Yes, they can be rather cocky at times, but on balance I rather suspect they're doing better than they would do if they had an overall majority when the arrogance we often see of Westminster governments could set in.
"I do think we are living in very interesting times, however I do have concerns that the whole of our structured society could collapse, due to the fact, the politics cant deliver for us all and the public are becoming more hostile to politicians in general."
There's an element of that, which I see as reflecting the frustration people have with politicians, who almost always want to preach at us "for our own good" rather than listening to what is wanted from the local level upwards.
The Scottish electoral system is now much more democratic at local and "national" level than it is anywhere else in the UK except for the UK parliament. I perceive a big part of the greater popularity of Holyrood over Westminster is because that inherent democracy gives the electorate a feeling that their voide actually counts much of the time.
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105. At 09:16am on 05 Oct 2008, Anaxim
As I pointed out to you in my 85 Scotland has plenty of profitable and world leading industries. Your final paragraph paints a false image of a parlous Scotland only so you can ridicule it.
As to your knowledge of Ireland??!
"Ireland reduced taxes partly by cutting public services to the bone, delivering efficiency of a sort."
That is complete nonsense, one of the many reasons for Ireland's success was their long term agreement with the unions.
Their public services may be founded and funded in the same way as many other European countries (not like the UK) but that did not come about through drastic cuts but through natural development from a very low base!!
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Nothing exactly new in the Sunday Mail's Jack McConnell's Africa role axed 'to avoid by-election' today, but a much less stridently unionist spin than usual. Starting to listen to their readership, perhaps?
I rather liked the quote from Prof. Curtice of Strathclyde University: "Is this the Labour Party desperately avoiding a by-election? And from Labour's point of view, will he be there for crucial votes in a minority government parliament? He has already been missing from high-profile votes."
BTW, McConnell's website is now pretty well terminally broken except for the home page. Last time I looked, there had been no surgeries, speeches or anything else for about a year. Now the poor devils he's supposed to represent have virtually no access to him at all.
"Duff" Gordon certainly has something in common with McConnell, if only a shared contempt for democracy.
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Jack McConnell claimes to have received "considerable representations" to stay on as MSP.
Good to see that the SNP is active in Motherwell and Wishaw.
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re McConnells new mission .... wonder if that was Mandys idea . Seems a bit low depriving of his electorate of someone to properly represent their interests. I expect we will see a lot more dirty stuff coming out of the woodwork soon.
103 jeepers your scraping the barrell there with that lot .... but hey Labour must be getting desperate enough now to consider it.
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As for McConnell he was a pretty lacklustre leader in Holyrood so I suppose his new job reflects how highly GB rates him. No pay either unless there is a brown envelope being passed under the table to keep him sweet.
109 Brownedov
You are right about Jack's website seems to have been dumped in the recycle bin and then emptied.
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Thank you for the reply Brownedov.
Listened to Mandelson this morning,
I have to say I do find it very odd indeed
that he had to seek Blairs advice before
he took the post in Browns government.
So many people have a pop at Brown,
does anyone feel that Blair is a bigger target
to have a go at?
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I find it quite disrespectful that McConnell feels he is capable of dividing his time between roles as an MSP and Special Envoy. Each role are very important and would require special attention but this man feels that he is THAT good he can do them both. It is almost as bad as Des Browne... (I lost count with the amount of jobs this man had at one time). Labour are simply putting off the by-election and I hope that the people in this constinuency vote Labour out the next chance they get.
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Just an update on an earlier link I posted.
"Your secret £67,300 second mortgage"
http://www.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2182576/your-secret-67300-second-mortgage.thtml
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110. The_Forfarian:
"Jack McConnell claimes to have received "considerable representations" to stay on as MSP."
Perhaps those representations were from SNP activists grateful for the job he's currently doing promoting Scottish Labour, and desparate he continue in the same vein.
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#114, Thomas_Porter
What about The Rt Hon Alex Salmond, MP, MSP?
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It occurs to me to wonder whether Iain Grey was consulted as to whether he could afford to be deprived of the considerable contribution Mr McConnell makes to Labour's impact on the Scottish parliament.
Presumably he was, and presumably he agreed GB was welcome to him.
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#118, jameswhaleforpm
...and no doubt asked if GB could find a job for Wendy Alexander as well.
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#113 derekbarker
I really don't want to intrude on their private grief, but I do believe that we're seeing the end of an era, and that Mandelson's return from the political grave is more likely than not to end in tears.
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#120, Brownedov
"Mandelson's return from the ... grave"
What else would one expect from someone dubbed 'The Prince of Darkness'?
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/7653579.stm
I see John Prescott has indicated to the SNP that they'll soon have 2 by-election victories to celebrate.
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#121 The_Forfarian
Point taken - preferably through the heart!
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#122 jameswhaleforpm
LOL - what else could he possibly have meant?
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#122 it's quite obvious to me that someone has asked Mr Prescott how many government Jags he used to have, his answer was obviously two Jags.
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#122 sorry my mistake after watching the clip again, I'm sure I heard someone ask Mr Prescott how many pies he wanted for his lunch on the train........the answer (obviously) was two pies and not as some might suggest all the pies.
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#117.
The constinuencies that Salomnd represents are practically the same area. Plus Salmond also campaigned quite openly what his attentions were and was still voted to represent the constinuency. He even made clear that he was going to become First Minister.
However Des Browne, MP, Defence Minister and also Scot Sec. The roles are not even linked with one another, the Defence part would also be a handful alone considering we are currently fighting two wars.
Now look at McConnell. This man has took on a role with the Foreign Office, why an MSP is working in the Foreign Office I do not know but they took on a role that will even require them to be taken out of the country to help other countries. He will not be representing those who he was elected to represent...
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Intentions. I did not mean attentions.
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Thomas .... This whole situation is purely so to avoid embarrassment at the next Scottish election ... if McConnells seat had been lost a lot more voters would have seen this and thought what the hell lets vote SNP ... yeah why is a MSP getting involved with other countries....
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#129 Rabbiehippo
Yes, this postings sets a bizzare precedent, surely now the SNP can assign ambassadors to foreign countries if MSPs are now allowed to oversee foreign development.
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101. Wow, what a thoroughly exciting life you lead.
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#131 hey dude....for someone who's only claim to fame in here is counting up conspiracy theories you sure can't comment.
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# 76 Anglophone
I find your assumption of the so called 'Scottish anti English' rant offensive. There are many SNP supporters who live and work in England; I for one. My child and Grandchildren are English and I would have no wish to scupper the English in any way shape or form in EU voting, nor would I wish my Scottish government to do the same. Take a chill pill and concentrate on the political points instead of trying to stoke up your rabid frustrations.
# 89
Good point. Why would we wish to make enemies of our closest trading nation? Anglophone's argument just does not make sense.
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# 132
Well said, InMyKip.
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133. Get over yourself.
I have lost count of the number of bigoted idiots that are fanatical supporters of the SNP and also want to see England fail after any move to independence.
If you aren't one of them, then good for you but there are many around as you very well know.
Feel free to check out the raging nat loons on the Scotsman and Herald websites if you are struggling to think of any examples.
(By the way, what was your previous username, 'newbie'?)
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
In the interests of balance, it appears that Jim Murphy is intent on a mature approach to dealing with Scotland:
Murphy: Judge me on my record
UK minister backs Lottery concern
I hope he lives up to his fine talk and doesn't become the "taxpayer-funded attack dog to be set on the Nationalists" that Andrew Black mentions in the first article. Given that such suspicion already exists he'll presumably have to tread lightly.
Re #132 InMyKip and #134 gedguy2: hear, hear!
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Reluctant ex pat, perhaps you need to get rid of that complex you carry around on your shoulder.
I dont personaly know one SNP supporter who is ANTI English. That is a silly claim on your behalf and proves beyond doubt that you havent got the slightest idea what Scottish Independence is based on.
SNP supporters sympathise with the English People and their poor treatment by Westmonster. Like us they also suffer because the further north one lives, the more they are ignored. We in the SNP support wish only the best for the English People and certainly wish them their own country back in control of an English Parliament, run by English People deciding on English Affairs.
Dont allow your bitterness to confuse your beliefs as somehow the same attitude as yours exists in Scottish Independence Supporters. We will be the first to congratulate the English and wish them a happy prosperous future.
Silly Little Person.
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#135
'I have lost count of the number of bigoted idiots that are fanatical supporters of the SNP and also want to see England fail after any move to independence.'
Does this mean that there are no bigoted unionists who would wish to see Scotland fail if England gets its independence?
Any bigots be they Nats or unionists have the right to have their say in a democracy but that doesn't mean that all Nats or Unionists are bigots.
The fact that you used the word 'fanatical' does tend to compliment the word 'bigot'.
As you are probably happy to concede that not all Nats are fanatical as you would also concede that not all New Labour supporters are 'fanatical'. So, is your statement talking about an unimportant minority?
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My previous username was Gedguy and Gedguy1. I was blocked twice in the past for misspelling my password. Didn't look at the screen. Does that help you? And why would I want to 'get over myself'? I tried but I might do myself an injury. The bones are not as young as they used to be.
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#135, while I would not deny there is some truth in what you say, it is a claim that can equally be laid at the door of bigoted Unionist supporters. I think you will find that the vast majority of people who advocate independence for Scotland do so on the basis of wishing Scotland to prosper under it's people's own efforts not at the cost of our neighbours. Independence for Scotland means taking control of our social, financial and political desires and needs, it does not mean re-building Hadrians Wall, nor breaking our long standing historical, financial, social and political ties with England, Ireland or Wales. Maybe you should take a more realistic view of what independence means rather than the catastrophic and negative view you continually pour out here. I recommend you see yourself as others see you.
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138. I dont personaly know one SNP supporter who is ANTI English."
Oh, that settles it then. Anti-English nats surely can't exist if you don't know them personally.
I therefore must have been horrendously mistaken every time I read nationalists repeatedly refer to the English as "a gypsy race" who are "cultureless", "thieves".......
(Where's Gingerbadger when you need a good anti-English rant?)
139. 'A unionist who wants to see Scotland fail...'?
How is that a 'unionist' mindset?
Do you even understand what Unionism is?
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# 138
I fully support your comments. I have heard, though, anti English comments from Scots but I've also heard them from Welsh, Irish, French, German, Poles, South Africans, Australians, New Zealanders etc.
Now let's talk about the anti-everybody that I've heard from a tiny minority of some English people. No, I won't bother because people like that are just not interesting to listen to. I tend to list their political points of view with the same deference as I would to the political points of view of my three year old grandson.
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141. What catastrophic and negative views?
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#137 forfar-loon
If you watched the Lisbon Treaty debates on BBC Parliament, you'll know his record is one of illogical defense of the indefensible and scorn for the truth.
We should probably be grateful that NuLab have put such a blindly partisan party loyalist into the post as he will win few friends and likely lose his East Renfrewshire seat in the process.
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# 142
Oh dear. Are you saying that all those people who believe in the Union will suddenly disappear in a puff of smoke if Scotland and England decide to go their separate ways? I suspect that there are people today that still believe in the 'Empire' even though, thankfully, it has gone the way of all empires. I also suspect that there are people out there who lament the loss of the English colonies in France, even though it was England that had become a colony of the Angevins.
So, yes I do understand the meaning of Unionism and I don't think it will disappear after the Union goes the way of all empires.
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144. At 11:36am on 06 Oct 2008, Reluctant-Expat.
the ones that you show all the time uness its federalism that being disgused.
posters need only look back at your postings to see that the above is true.
it is seldom that you post possitive posts and generaly go for the argumentist ranting type of post.
its time you changed.
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113
I think Brown is a bigger target to have a pop at than Blair because when he (Broon) had the chance to cause a division in the cabinet over Iraq he meekly went along with it, spending billions as Chancellor(indeed the "Labour" Government is still spending billions on wars) and putting young working class lads and lassies in harms way, this military involvement over oil contributing to an ongoing bloodbath in Iraq and Afghanistan. In my opinion, as criminal as Blair if not more so.
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Um, forgive my screaming ignorance this afternoon but isn't Forn Affairs a "Reserved matter".
Can Jack please explain to his electors in Motherwell and Wishaw how exactly he represents their interests in Oor Pretendy Wee Parliament by taking on this "voluntary and unpaid" position in the Foreign and Commonwealth Office ?
And #142, Good Old Reluctant-Expat.
Come on, you're not even funny now.
I don't think that there is a single Scot who doesn't have blood-ties with England. That's been the nature of the Union. Do we "hate" the English ? Are we about to line up the New Scottish Army at the border and march to reclaim Berwick ? (um..possibly :} )Do we abominate their works, denigrate their culture, and (unlike my time doing missionary work amongst the heathen in London) gob on them for wearing their Rugby Strip ?
Get real. The English are our Brothers and Mothers, Fathers and Sisters, Aunts and Uncles and Grannies and Granpaws.
Can you just come to terms with the fact that although we share this island, there is a large part of our nation that wants to be separate from English Government.
Now, my experience is that Scots and English agree on more things than we disagree. We have a common language, a common culture, a shared frame of reference built up from long before the Union of the Crowns and the Union of the Parliaments by dint of our placement on these shores.
You risk being seen yourself as Anti-Scottish. Your diatribes and your rhetoric deliberately inflamatory, you have no desire to seek a way forward.
There are people on these fora who disagree with your views.
Debate us but don't denigrate us.
Prove your statements cooly, calmly and with facts, not rhetor and bluster.
Start by proving your rant about "nats calling the English race Cultures,, thieves", etc and I will be the first on the list to condemn the writer. Give us a name, a link, a screenshot.
There are wise men and fools on all sides.
Accept that we agree to differ and that as this is a free forum, everyone has their voice.
Then we might take the debate on the future of the Union forward instead of being bogged down in mud-slinging.
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#145 Brownedov:
Oh dear, that doesn't sound too promising. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt though and judge him on his record (starting from now I assume he meant!). As I remarked to the brigadier (I think) a while back, I'm an avowed optimist and am determined to be disappointed only after the event, not beforehand as well! Life's more fun that way, particularly as a Scotland football/rugby supporter ;o)
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144. At 11:36am on 06 Oct 2008, Reluctant-Expat
As you obviously still don't know the difference between "plenty supply" and "critical supply" regarding the water supply of water in England just goes to show the World you live in is a make believe computer generated one.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
146. If there is anyone who can make any sense of that post, answers on a postcard please.
147. Give examples. Don't just say they exist, prove it.
You can manage 'copy and paste', can't you?
(I appreciate the general credibility of nats is very low already with the countless shrill claims and hilarious conspiracies but try not to let it sink any lower.)
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#152
I reckon you must be bighullabaloo's alter ego. Difference being he is on the right side of the political divide.
You are alienating yourself completely with other posters on this blog.
If you could put forward some valid arguments instead of the vitriol, that you seem to expound, perhaps you would get a more sympathetic ear.
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#150 forfar-loon
OK, but I'm afraid I'm a convinced believer in O'Toole's rider to Murphy's Law to the effect that Murphy was an optimist or fully expressed: Toast always falls buttered side down, unless you want it to.
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#144 hey expat dude....there are none so blind as those who will not see.....you should have gone to 'a well known opticians whose name I dare not type here for fear of it being banned by the moderators'
I don't know about the rest of you folks in here....I've tried humouring expat, I've tried reasoning with expat, now I'll try just ignoring expat till he either improves his manners and behaves politely or goes away.
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153 expat
Time to grow up ex pat, you're becoming more tiresome than your teenage rantings.
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Now back from the US. Henry McLeish was on the plane - slumming it in Economy with us peasants.
Obama was speaking in Asheville on the day we left. A Democratic candidate campaigning in NC at this stage of the election with a chance of winning the state is unheard of.
Interesting chat with my son's neighbour - an Indian (from India, not a Native American). He wanted to know when we were going to become independent, like the rest of the old Empire!
Nice to be back in a political climate where reasonable political debate takes place, instead of one where Expat would be seen as a mild-mannered consensual wimp, and the most right-wing of you would be considered dangerous socialists!
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154. Ah, there it is again. That self-righteous nationalist belief that supporting independence is "right". I assume this is the same as "logical" and "correct"?
And I have no problem being alienated from the combination of the bigoted, the extreme, the ill-informed and the dishonest that makes up much of the nationalist contingent on these boards.
No problem whatsoever.
And as for your last sentence.....!
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If one wishes a continued reasoned Blog it might be best to avoid this fella.
"Clatter Apex Nut" is a Troll. Don't feed this Troll "A Nut Text Placer".
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137. Anyone's argument that London is taking more than its fair share of funding for the Olympics would do well to remember that if London was allowed to keep all its tax revenue, in the way Salmond constantly screeches about Scotland, the city could pay for the entire Olympiad on its own in just one year.
But, hey, why let teeeeeedious facts get in the way of one of Scottish nationalism's favourite rants.
155. Dirac's Corollary to Murphy's applies perfectly to several nationalists on these boards.
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156. So, I'm guessing you can't find a single one of those "catastrophic and negative views" I am supposed to regularly post?
Not even via the simple route of clicking on my username?
How utterly and totally humiliating for you.
What complete destruction of what little remaining credibility you had.
Can I expect an apology and a retraction of your accusation then?
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#158 oldnat
Welcome back to Yurp.
Not sure the brig. would appreciate being called a dangerous lefty, but might be interesting to listen in.
You certainly tend to get more reasoned debate on the Brian threads than is the norm for the NR ones - RE's there would be a welcome relief from the likes of CEH.
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We might all benefit from reading over our contributions a little more carefully before posting.
The whole process would be better if we stuck to debating actual political points as opposed to turning everything into a "four legs good two legs bad" debate.
Unionists need to make a case for the union, should not rubbish other opinions at every opportunity and give credit where it is due.
Nationalists need to remember the debate is far from won and they are at the most powerful when debating on actual political points and not on belittiling opinions and personalities.
We are facing a crossroads, good political debate is urgently needed as opposed to the offerings on show here.
So how about we all try a little harder to be more grown up?
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Oh dear I could see Reluctant-expat exploding in a ball of gooey rage!
On more serious matters, I'm glad there is such a positive vibe from this forum apart from the usual detractors who claim that if they are right, everyone else is wrong.
Dear oh dear! What would their grannies say!
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#161 Reluctant-Expat
"Dirac's Corollary to Murphy's applies perfectly to several nationalists on these boards."
Hadn't come across that one but having looked it up, you do have a point although I'm not convinced it's Murphy-related. It strikes me as closer to the old empty vessels adage.
OTOH, the words pot, kettle & black do spring to mind.
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? has re-pat got attention seeking syndrome.
the only logical conclusion is that he is wee jack o'connel working in rwanda and the suns gone to his heid.
it would explain the reluctant ex-pat part as hes been deported for crimes against the scottish nation.
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166. Yep. Having posted that and then realised how many comments I'd posted today......
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#160 cynicalHighlander: Well said, although I still prefer the apposite "Expectant-Ultra". Best left to throw their tantrum alone on the naughty step methinks.
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#164 northhighlander
Good points, although I think most of us do try at least most of the time.
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Brian has confused me (not a difficult task!)
He says "Mr Murphy will represent Scotland's interests in the UK Cabinet on reserved issues such as the economy, Europe and defence."
Surely (within the Unionist argument), Scotland has no more of a special interest in these Britain-wide issues than the South-West of England. Why does every English region not have a Cabinet level post to "represent (their) interests in the UK Cabinet"?
I understand why Murphy's post could not be abolished, since the SoS is responsible for vetoing actions of the Scottish Government or Parliament which affect reserved powers, but since that has never happened, it hardly needs a full-time Cabinet level post with an additional Minister.
Northern Ireland is obviously still a special case, and Wales does not (yet) exercise legislative powers, but would any Unionist care to justify Scotland having a "special voice" in UK affairs?
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#162 yes expat you are correct I am feeling utterly humiliated and completely gutted.....whoa is me! cause I really, really meant to stick to my guns and ignore you but hey what the hell I never had any credibility in here in the first place so I might as well kick what little I do have into touch and reply to #162. Anyways expat dude....I took your advice and I had a good read through your past postings just to refresh my memory and after due consideration my opinion of your postings hasn't changed one bit (so no apology and no retraction). The one thing I will say in your defence is that it is just my opinion (for what it's worth) and I'd advise other people to review your past postings and draw their own conclusions as to their general tone. They may agree or disagree with my opinion that is upto them, but I stand by mines........ttfn
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