Calling time
Notably lively debate in parliament right now about the Scottish Government's proposal to restrict off-sales of alcohol to those aged 21 or over.
It's part of a much wider campaign to reduce alcohol abuse in Scotland - including minimum pricing, separate supermarket queues and the rest.
From relatively and variously tentative beginnings, the opposition parties have firmed up their dislike of the off-sales plan.
No doubt they've been emboldened by vigorous opposition to the scheme from the student body, among others.
Looks like MSPs will vote against the scheme in principle in response to today's debate, initiated by the Tories - who, to be fair, have been pretty much agin the notion from the outset.
That isn't, of course, the end of the matter - but it would indicate that there is minimum prospect of that element surviving in a Bill on the topic.
Notably evangelical
Opponents of the off-sales ban say it discriminates against young people unfairly - without sustained evidence that it helps counter Scotland's booze culture.
There is much talk of the 18-year-old who can serve in Iraq - but daren't buy a bottle of beer from an off licence on his return.
Or the 19-year-old who can marry and start a family - but can't buy her pals a bottle of wine to celebrate at home.
In response, Scottish Justice Secretary Kenny MacAskill - who has been notably evangelical on this topic - challenged his opponents to state what, precisely, they would do.
It was all fine and dandy, he said, to mock the government proposals. It was a different thing to offer alternative policy ideas.
This is a consultation. I'm sure the politicians would welcome your views. Especially if they address the issue directly - with minimal reference to partisan standpoints.
I'm 
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It's relatively easy to comment away at whatever an opponent might have to say. The greater talent is to offer alternative to what he might have to say. Such talents seem notably lacking in most of our MSP's I regretfully add.
Do we accept the Status Quo and continue as before with things as they are, pretending that problem drinking is not a Scottish cultural norm? Do we instead offer an enlightened alternative that suits all concerned parties? Will our MSP's have both sufficient courage and intellect to address these challenges without resorting to the boring and tedious displays of politico-babbling that we have come to expect in this ridiculous Punch and Judy show?
I fear that the defeat of this measure simply to satisfy the grotesque needs of partisan politicians will neglect the greater need to arrive at an appropriate and workable solution.
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I was at the student rally outside the Scottish parliament this morning before heading off to lectures. No one is arguing that change is needed. What we are objecting to is the unfounded supposition that 18-20 year olds have a problem no one else in society has.
I would be happy to support any sensical measure backed up by evidence.
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Since the object is to stop teenagers drinking in the streets, an alternative to banning off sales to under 21's would be to make it an offence for someone under the age of 21 to be caught in the street with an opened bottle or can of alcohol.
This way if someone was going to a party for example, they would be entitled to carry with them an unopened bottle of wine or a 6 pack but any bottles which had been opened could be classed as an indication that they were drinking in the street.
More of an effort could also be made to clamp down on the sale of alcohol to under 18's (I suspect that it's the under 18's who are causing the problem rather than the 18-21 year olds).
Catching a few offending retailers and removing there licence to sell alcohol should serve as a deterrent for others.
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Something has to be done to reign in binge drinking. No-one disagrees with that.
But to ban ALL under-21s from buying alcohol is a ridiculously blunt response.
Punishing the majority for the sins of the minority is not the way to do it.
Also, this totally makes a mockery of the SNP's proposal to give the vote to 16 and 17 year olds (aka the SNP's core support).
Come on, Eck. Just how old do you need to be before you are considered mature enough to make your own decisions: 16, 18 or 21 years old?
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This is not a problem which will be fixed by a quick gimmick based the most dubious of statistical evidence (I refrain from quoting Mark Twain). Scotland's love affair with drink is something that is ingrained in our national psyche and goes a long way back. Binge drinking is nothing new (just read the works of our national bard). How do we change this? Certainly not overnight. Obviously lack of education, poverty, despair, even the weather, all seem to play their part. But I suspect that there is more to this. Public drunkenness is tolerated in this country. It is now perfectly respectable to be drunk in public. Drink is intertwined with sport and is an integral part of it. Drink has become an essential component of almost all forms of social interaction. It seems that we Scots cannot enjoy ourselves without having a drink. Why? I don’t know the answer but rather than demonising youngsters perhaps the first step forward would be for us adults to set a better example and develop a more responsible and mature attitude to the drug we all love called alcohol.
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Of course we need measures to deal with alcoholism in Scotland, but assuming that all 18-20 year old Scots are the problem is just wrong-headed. And to say 'well something certainly needs to be done, so we'll do this' is just, well, a bit silly.
The SNP government is getting a lot of things right. They should be big enough to admit when they have got something wrong. And this is that time.
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The SNP government miss the point that the attitude to drinking in Scotland is primarily a social one. If you want to change people's behaviour, it's got to be looked at and researched on that basis - simply restricting supply either through age limits (which aren't rigorously enough enforced now) or tougher licensing won't work.
It's a much, much wider issue than the SNP proposals suggest.
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I think the age limit for sale of alcohol in Scotland should be lowered to 16, allied with a drive to change the drinking culture in Scotland. I was impressed with Portugal where it is possible to legally buy alcohol from age 16. Mind you the point of sale were pleasant cafes or clean fast food outlets in well appointed American style malls. We lag behind Europe in many things, and our attitude to alcohol is just one of them.
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Personally, I'd prefer if "young people" could only buy alcohol from off licences and supermarkets.
Too many decent pubs are ruined by being over-run by lads in pink shirts. Restrict them to drinking in the house, or on a park bench, I'd say.
Incidently, I'd raise the entry age for pubs to 30.
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As for an alternative:
Lock up all drunks 'for their own safety' and charge them for the overnight bed and board. Then ban them from all licensed premises for a year, earning a mighty fine if caught flouting.
Obviously, they will sneak back into the pub the next weekend, but they will then be very wary about getting drunk again and re-arrested.
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If the Authorities were to exercise the law as it stands and enforce the fact that selling to people under 18 is an offence of law or consuming alcohol undcer the age of 18 is also an offence of law then there would be a noticeable reduction in the number of offences commited which werer "alcohol related"
I observe on my travels through the streets, on almost every occasion, youths with bags of drink, in quantities that would be considered excessive even on route to a party, openly flouting the law and almost in defiance of arrest.
This current practice of not criminalising miscreants is WRONG it sends out the wrong message.
The message should be "break the law and feel the full force of said law. EVERY TIME.
No exceptions or preferential treatment.
I bet that there would be an overnight improvement to our street environment
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It is a fair comment by the opposition that this unfairly discriminates against 18-21 year olds, many of who could be responsible drinkers (as well as responsible soldiers and parents at that age). However in light of this, perhaps the opposition will also suggest dropping the ban on Sunday morning off sales because that similarly discriminates against people whether they are responsible drinkers or otherwise.
Craig
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Reluctant-Expat:
I am sixteen, I am taxed, why should I pay taxes towards our Treasury when I can not vote on matters that spend my taxes?
Brian's Blog:
I am quite open minded into this proposal. I am an occasional drinker and do not consider myself to binge drink. I admire the Scottish Nationalists for taking an incredibly important and tough subject and putting their foot down for what they believe in. I would back the Bill coming into effect along with conditions that if the issues surrounding underage drinking etc etc was not reduced that the Law would be reversed back because we would notice there is no link between underagers and the 18-21 age group. I also believe parents should become more involved by teaching their children about alcohol early. Some parents are quite strict and their children do not drink, how does this teach them about alcohol responsibility? Parents should allow their children to experiment, not in the parks but in their own home. My Ex teacher said that binge drinking was a phase and even she grew out of that habit, so did her mates. We should attempt to push that 'phase' through so children are more responsible later on.
However I am more interested about the Oppositions proposals, the SNP only opened the topic up, Parliament should unite together on this seriose matter to combat a National problem. Let's hope they are mature enough to get something done!
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This a difficult one to call. Yes we need to tackle the problems of alcohol abuse, but is this the correct method to use?
No 4 Reluctant-Expat makes the powerful point that it is never a good idea to punish the few by punishing everyone.
That logic would have all swimming pools and beaches closed because some people have drowned.
Equally we don't need smart ar#ses smashing the idea to the ground without having an alternative to put in it's place.
MacAskil's evangelical, bear no criticism approach doesn't help of course. It is however a starting point for discussion.
If it's voted down then a cross party committee should get round the table and find a suitable alternative because the status quo is not acceptable.
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So just because opponents cannot come up with a good alternative we should just pass thought the SNP proposals? Is this the best arguement Kenny McAskill can offer?
Can they give us a breakdown of what alcohol related incidents are costing Scotland £2billion? How much does Scotland make from selling alcohol - do people who drink not pay tax on what they drink as well as everything else they pay tax for?
I am one of the few who do not drink alcohol at all in Scotland but I see this bill as totally unfair.
To single out 18-21 year olds is discrimination any way you care to slice it - no other arguement can out weigh this fact.
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9. Spot on, sir!
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The simplest and best answer is the notion of a "drinking licence", which deals with problem drinkers without punishing the responsible.
The licence wouldn't be a bit of paper, but a notional privilege conferred on your 18th birthday. However, if you're caught misbehaving under the influence of alcohol, your right to drink would be revoked for a certain amount of time. Obviously there'd be nothing to stop you going to the pub anyway, but IF you were reported as doing so and caught, you would be very severely punished, perhaps even with a jail sentence.
Who would risk going out drinking when banned, in the knowledge that if a single person called the police, you'd be going to jail or paying out thousands in fines? Problem drinking - at ALL ages - would be curbed, and responsible drinkers wouldn't suffer.
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Reluctant-Expat:
"Lock up all drunks 'for their own safety' and charge them for the overnight bed and board. Then ban them from all licensed premises for a year, earning a mighty fine if caught flouting."
How would you manage to arrest 'all the drunks'? If you are arrested you tend to be fined already for breach of the peace, I don't believe charging them for the overnight bed or the breakfast you get in the morning will be a real burden. Then of course the police want to aviod confrontation but patrol the streets to pick out ring leaders who may be causing trouble and to stop trouble once it happens. I would not be to pleased to have to stop groups of drunks who may just be out of their faces (not causing trouble) and risk being attacked because they have no clue what is happening.
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Much as it pains me as one of the more ranting of the cyber-nats that hang around here, The Government have got this one Very Wrong.
Much as it further pains me, the Tories have this one spot on.
(Guess that fully makes me a Tartan Tory then, eh ? But then, the SNP is a broad church)
This is not a question of banning booze or raising the age limit.
This is a question of enforcing the Law.
Sell so much as an alcopop to an under 18 and revoke the License.
Now, I freely admit, I drank before I was 18. That I was responsible for innocent shopkeepers and publicans breaking the law. How many times was I asked my age ? Never.
But when I was 17, there wasn't this neddish booze and blades culture that there is today. We didn't go roaming the streets looking for a fight. We had a pleasant, quiet evening in the pub on a Friday in the full realisation that a) you couldn't afford anything more than three pints and b) if you could, you would have the world's worst hangover and couldn't face up to your Saturday and Sunday doses of football/rugby/squash/tennis/hiking without redecorating the field.
Yes it was Illegal, Yes, I broke the Law and was responsible for other people breaking the law. That was then, many moons ago when the earth was yet young and Maggies was still In. Mea Culpa !
But its Time that Kenny and the Party stopped the Dogmatism, admitted that this one is going nowhere and sat down with all concerned, (even the Northern British Branch of NuLab), to try and address Scotland's Alcohol Problem.
A good deal of which could be solved IMHO overnight by stopping at the border the shipments of a certain well-known "tonic wine".
Mine's (still) a pint of CSA at the Malt Shovel if anyone's buying. If they still sell it in pints. If they still make it.
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#11.
The authorities do act on those who sell alcohol to minors. The problem is its quite hard to trace back the alcohol back to the premises that sold it, unless you are capable of magic powers that we are unaware of? You also forget that parents and older brothers and sisters, plus older friends are quite happy to buy alcohol to their younger friends/family, so long they pay for it themselves.
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This policy shows has exposed the SNP as a Government of gimmicks that panders to prejeduce rather than demonstrating a commitment towards a progressive approach to a more equal society. This unimaginitive solution to under age drinking and the problems it creates only serves as a sweeping unfair generalisation of all young people in Scotland. It's clear to see that the problems of alcohol related violence affect the worst deprived areas of society the most. I beleive that the quantities of alcohol consumed by different "classes" in society aren't any broadly the same and so Alcohol is not the only cause of crime and violence. (the quantity of booze we put away is a problem, but thats a problem for society in general not just the young). The level of deprivation in the poorest areas of scotland was highlighted by the Glasgow east bi-election. The Government should focus more on offering the young people there hope of a future worth living so that they don't throw it away through binge drinking or drug abuse or gang cultulre. The young people in Scotland who get involved in Alcohol and drugs etc are victims of their circumstances. The Government should focus less of retribution against young people for the actions of these dissafected young people and rather focus providing the decent standard of living that everybody in scotland has a right to.
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It's curious how the SNP are all for consensus politics now they are in power.
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#17
Do you mean an ID card?
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#19
'But when I was 17, there wasn't this neddish booze and blades culture that there is today. We didn't go roaming the streets looking for a fight. We had a pleasant, quiet evening in the pub on a Friday'
Perhaps you didn't grow up in Glasgow in the 1960's?
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I too normally back the SNP over their proposals as they tend to have the merit, but I have to agree that this one seems to have been rushed and poorly-constructed. I am certain I heard of a report on this which was horrified to discover that just over a quarter of drink-related problems are occasioned by those under 21. The immediate thought that struck me was that the vast majority were caused by those over 21, rather than being shocked at the amount attributable to those under 21. Admittedly I cannot recall where I obtained this statistic, and yes, statistics are normally not the most reliable in any case, but I would say the point stands as made; Scotland has a drink problem as a nation, and if no person under 21 were ever to drink again in this country, that problem would still abound.
Let me point out that I am over 21 and therefore will be unaffected either way.
This strikes me as the logical fallacy identified in Yes, Minister. Action needs to be Taken; This constitutes Action; therefore I will Take it. A more measured approach would undoubtedly serve better, in my opinion.
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'What would you do?' asks Kenny, as if this is an argument. In fact, I find that detail of the whole farce particularly laughable.
Well, the first thing I would do is have a principled stance on personal freedom. Just because some people don't behave themselves is no excuse for introducing a blunt-instrument insult to our liberty like this policy.
I bought alcohol from a offie when I was at University and never caused any trouble whatsoever.
Kenny sees problems caused by alcohol abuse, is too lazy or feart to tackle them directly, and so thinks it's fine and dandy to strip people of their rights. Pathetic.
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You will be surprised to know that I disagree with the SNP on this one; I don't think it'll make the blindest bit of difference and it will generate resentment.
The system performs poorly at control the distribution of alchohol to people as young as 13. So there is no chance it will succeed when dealing with those with more resources and tax payers at that.
Alcohol is a problem with all age groups. Not just 18-21 year olds.
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It is utterly ridiculous that the small group of 18- 20 year olds are being targetted. Does no one else think that if this were to be implemented it would do nothing positive other than make 18-20 year olds feel isolated from adult society? More to the point, there are plenty of laws that already exist that are not enforced. How can we every expect to have a fair chance to tackle alcohol abuse if the basic laws aren't even enforced?
The Government should not punish the majority of sensible drinkers who should have the right to buy a drink without absurd restrictions. I've just signed up to www.drinkersalliance.com and plan to get my friends to as well because I am so sick of the responsible drinker being punished. It's really about time our voices are listened to.
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#21
I see you are against the SNP proposal, you also listed and explained your own theory, but you failed to explain solutions to act as an alternative to the SNP proposal...
Brian wrote:
"It was all fine and dandy, he said, to mock the government proposals. It was a different thing to offer alternative policy ideas."
;-)
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Personally I think that drinking, smoking and driving should all be set at 18. However, you should have be in university, college, an apprenticeship or running your own business to qualify. Everyone else has to wait until they're 21. Might make some people think twice about their application towards secondary education.
"There is much talk of the 18-year-old who can serve in Iraq - but daren't buy a bottle of beer from an off licence on his return."
Aye, because everyone in Scotland was so heavily in favour of sending our youth into harm's way!
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#19 Aye yer right there ..... a lot of us probably were drinking from about 13 onwards ... but the difference then was that we generally behaved ourselves and caused no trouble. Probably the answer is to just lock up the drunken teenage louts, but the problem is then there for the police who get enough crap anyway. I blame the parents.
Also leave the ' bucky' out of it, its more a status thing than the devils brew..... speaking as a connoisseur of the stuff ... have you not tried 'Velvet Elvises' bucky and champagne to the non informed ... pure class ... lol
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SNP are trying something different from England, that's what upsets many from the Unionist camp.
No doubt, the Tories will launch the very same policy at their annual conference next year (and brand it a first).
Seems to me that the other parties are merely spoilers, they don't know what the questions are, let alone the answers. They merely wish to spoil.
Others have notions that 14 - 21 year olds drink to be sociable. Nonsense, they drink in bike sheds, deseterted buildings and graveyards to get hammered out of their faces, not some noble cause of social interaction.
At least by raising the limmit to 21, it may reduce 14 - 17 year olds access to booze.
The Tories don't want it because it may hurt business.
Lib Dems don't want it because it might label all youngster negatoively.
Scottish regional Lavour don't want it because they didn't think of it.
What a motley bunch!
A McG
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#29
For alternative proposals the Government could enforce laws that actually exist rather than criminalising 18-20 year olds. We don't need to slap down more laws, we just need to have a look at the ones that are already there.
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Glasgow has the highest alcohol-related death rate among both men and women in the UK. Fifteen of the 20 UK local areas with the highest male alcohol-related death rates are in Scotland.
In Scotland, the 16-24 age group are more likely to exceed recommended limits on alcohol than any other age group.
In Scotland, the 16-24 age group are drinking more.
In Scotland, the 16-24 age group are commiting more alochol related crime.
Alcohol abuse is age related in Scotland.
If education won't change the habits of the young, if special programmes won't change the habits of the young, then what? Politicians sitting on their hands, going, "tut-tut", ceratinly won't.
Maybe the solution is to go one step further than the SNP's proposed policy.
Perhaps it is time to raise the minimum drinking age to 21 in Scotland, and in so doing close down all the Student Union's bars.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#32
Read what Brian said:
'I'm sure the politicians would welcome your views. Especially if they address the issue directly - with minimal reference to partisan standpoints'.
Comment's like this are not helpful to the SNP or anyone else. Ever heard of the concept of constructive criticism? Or is it my party right or wrong?
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While McAskill gets brownie points for trying to deal with the problem, this proposal is flawed both in principle (18 is the age of majority) and in practice (the ease with which under 18s could get hold of alcohol when I was young and still today) demonstrates that arbitrary age limits don't work.
It is a social problem - the members of my family in the USA drink much less than the ones on Scotland, because drink (especially strong drink) is less embedded in the culture than back home. Young people will always indulge in "adult" pursuits before they are allowed to - it's part of growing up.
Thomas #20 puts his finger on the difficulty of enforcement - "The problem is its quite hard to trace back the alcohol back to the premises that sold it". Perhaps an answer might be to put a code on each bottle or can that identifies the retailer?
However, it is possible to change social attitudes, over time. Many people of my generation look back with embarrassment at the cavalier way in which we drove after drinking - something my children and their friends would never do.
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MacAskill's challenge is an utterly fatuous defence. A proposal is not validated by the lack of alternative suggestions.
For example, one could suggest that we solve the Iraq problem by dressing up as clowns and cartwheeling through Baghad. It's clearly nonsense, but you can't presume to defend it by going "Yeah, well where's YOUR idea?"
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Hi #29
Yes I'm definately against the proposal. I also reject the Governments challenge for those who reject their suggestions to come up with a suitable alternative. If the proposal is voted down as i beleive it probably will, then it is their job to come up with a better one. They are the government , thats what they do! The SNP do not enjoy the priviledge of being in government so that others can solve societies problems for them. My objection to the proposal puts no onus on me to find the solution. I can say that I'm confident it won't work, that if its passed the problems of society in general will still remain and the trouble won't go away all at the expense of curtailing the rights of young people who behave within the law. What message does this send out, "you may have done nothing wrong, but people you age have so we're punishing you too." To compare this issue to something such as the Civil rights movement may be over dramatic but it is currently the right of someone aged 18-21 to buy booze and it is nothing but an injustice if they are to be banned even though they have acted as the law permits because of the headline grabbers at Holyrood trying to be seen to do something as a quick fix of symptoms of an issue which is so deep routed in society that it will take more than my humble grasp of the situation to resolve!
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Kenny MacAskill's suggestion that if we can't offer an alternative suggestion, we should not mock his, is an insult to free thought and smacks slightly of the onset of dictatorship. As a 48 year old University lecturer, I don't know why this proposal annoys me so much, but it does. I've seen enough hung-over students trying to stay awake in my time. However, in spite of popular misconception, that is not the norm. They mostly work very hard often ballancing study with part-time jobs. It is a profound insult to these young people to suggest they should be treated as infants in this way. How dare MacAskill blame the ills of Scots society on them. It would make as much sense to suggest 30-33 year olds be banned from buying alcohol. In fact, an enforced mid-life break in alcohol consumption may actually help - but NO I don't suggest it as an alternaitve!
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I am a fairly typical Scottish professional male in my mid 40s. As such, I've had more than a few beers in my time. But if I stop to think about the effect that drink has had on me and people I have known, it is very sobering.
I learnt to drink - heavily, because that's what we Scots do - along with my friends when I was a schoolboy and then a student. Of my friends, three have died prematurely as a direct result of problem drinking. Two died alcoholics in their early 40s: one of them suffered heart failure after drinking a bottle of vodka a day for years, and one drowned in the sea while drunk. A third good friend, who had become virtually teetotal, was knocked of his bike and killed at the age of 44 by a young man who was driving his car while 5 times over the limit. The young man ended my friend's life and ruined his own, as he was sentenced to 5 years in Barlinnie. I also know of two other acquaintances from student days who committed suicide in their 20s whilst in the grips of alcoholism. And when I worked as a court lawyer in the 1990s, most of the cases coming before the Sheriff involving violence, sexual crime or vandalism were committed by young people who were very drunk at the time.
Perhaps my experiences are untypical. But I suspect that most Scots of my age have, if they reflect on it, had similar experiences over the years.
Even if this is not the case, the recent pilot schemes which have been run in Armadale and Cupar show clearly that restricting the sale of alcohol to those over the age of 21 have been very effective in reducing crime and anti-social behaviour in these towns. As well as reducing alcohol related incidents involving 18-21 year olds, a ban makes it much harder for those under the age of 18 to get access to drink - most 21 year olds have the good sense not to buy drink for young people.
The fact is that we in Scotland have a very serious social problem with alcohol. This problem usually begins with heavy binge drinking by young people, more often than not on cheap booze bought from off-sales. So, in my view the Scottish Government is right to try to limit drinking among the under 21s to pubs, where there is an element of social pressure not to behave irresponsibly, and cost also restricts consumption. People under the age of 21 should not be able to buy drink in off-sales, for their own protection as much as anything else.
One can understand the views of students and young people opposing the Government's proposals: after all, when you are young you have only limited ideas of consequences. Those who are more mature and who are opposing the Government's proposals should think again though. If we cannot even agree a modest change of this sort, we are condemning ourselves to live in a society where the massive problems of alcohol induced crime, social breakdown and health problems can only get worse. Is that what Scots really want?
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#33.
"For alternative proposals the Government could enforce laws that actually exist rather than criminalising 18-20 year olds."
Please explain. Enforce what Laws? Do you honestly believe that enforcing certain laws will stop the youngsters drinking? I see, shall we take away the liciences from those premises who sell alcohol to minors? How can you possibly trace alcohol back to the suppliers? Like I said earlier alcohol comes from the parents, older family relatives and of course older friends who are 18 if they do not buy it themselves.
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Oldnat:
"Thomas #20 puts his finger on the difficulty of enforcement - "The problem is its quite hard to trace back the alcohol back to the premises that sold it". Perhaps an answer might be to put a code on each bottle or can that identifies the retailer?2
I was thinking along those lines to. In #42 though, I point out that alcohol comes from parents, older family relatives and also older friends from pretty much everywhere. The youngsters are not always the ones who purchase the alcohol and it will be impossible to police that.
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#23 No, that's why I explicitly said it would NOT be a bit of paper. The problem with drinking in Scotland goes far beyond teens, and a "drinking licence" approach would be effective for ALL forms of anti-social drinking without punishing responsible drinkers.
It's sad to see so many posters here ignoring Brian's request and both trying to score cheap party political points against the SNP, and failing to come up with any constructive suggestions while doing so. But I guess that's what comes of the main opposition party fostering such an atmosphere of blanket playground negativity.
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#39
The Scottish National Party are a MINORITY Government. It is up to political parties to unite to pass their Bills, it is completely unfair to force the Nationalists to come up with ideas on their own. I am sure those who voted for Labour, Conservatives etc etc all voted them so they could be represented by those parties in Parliament. It is up to Labour and the Tories etc to ensure those who voted them are represented!!
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When it comes to responsibly enjoying alcohol adults and parents should set an positive example to the young.
I would suggest that most of the current alcohol related trouble with is more fundamentally associated with poverty and dis-functional family units etc, etc. It seems to be droves of drinking sub 18 year olds that roam our streets at night, with no beat policemen in sight!!
A punitive ill conceived proposal such as this will only serve to alienate the young, most of whom are responsible.
I have been generally impressed with the SNP's performance so far, however this proposal is extremely heavy handed and deserves to be voted down.
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#32:
Yes that'll be it. It's not a *dumb policy*, it's just The Pesky Yoonyenists being all yoonyenist. if England implemented this dumb policy, they would fall into line quick smart.
What a simple and comforting attitude to politics you have.
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As the example given to kids regarding drink and all other matters usually starts in the home, perhaps it's the parents we should ban from buying drink starting with all those who have been in trouble with the law - we should then extend this to all teenagers 16+ who get in trouble through excess alchohol and to their parents for failing to bring them up properly.
I think most people are totally sick fed up with legislation that punishes the innocent for the failures of the guilty.
However rather than throwing these people in prison, their passports should be withdrawn and they should lose their citizenship rights, including the protection of the Human rights act. This should be the case for all criminals.
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#42: "Do you honestly believe that enforcing certain laws will stop the youngsters drinking?"
Presumably the uselessness of laws applies to the other laws, and not this law that Kenny's come up with.
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#44: "It's sad to see so many posters here ignoring Brian's request and both trying to score cheap party political points against the SNP"
I see something different. I see a lot of people tearing this stupid plan apart, I see some people supporting the plan, and I see some thin-skinned SNP hacks who lack an argument and are whining that it's all so terribly unfair.
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It's unusual for me to agree with an SNP proposal. Westminster governments used to be criticised for the perception that difficult policies should be trialled in Scotland, and now they're doing it to themselves without the spillage of any political capital from National Government.
The proposal is really quite modest in that it doesn't bar 18 - 21 year olds from drinking. Merely from buying it in off-licences. Go to the pub and behave yourself with the grown-ups is I think the idea. Youngsters will still get booze, most likely bought by their own parents in my experience...or possibly from the white van cross-channel booze-cruisers if they travel that far. It will though give a clear signal that greedy off-licencees must stop selling drink to younger teenagers, something that is far easier for them to do than a licenced publican.
It may not work but I think that it is worth a try. At the same time, there is a wider need to de-glamourise alchohol right across society and, as experience shows, prohibition is quite the worst way of going about this.
Perhaps all 16 year olds should be forced to drink a whole bottle of Southern Comfort. This was an inexplicably common precursor to a drink free lifestyle when I was that age.
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#41
'Even if this is not the case, the recent pilot schemes which have been run in Armadale and Cupar show clearly that restricting the sale of alcohol to those over the age of 21 have been very effective in reducing crime and anti-social behaviour in these towns. As well as reducing alcohol related incidents involving 18-21 year olds, a ban makes it much harder for those under the age of 18 to get access to drink - most 21 year olds have the good sense not to buy drink for young people'
Read the condemnation of the data by Professor Sheila Bird of the Royal Statistical Society who described it as 'naive'. This evidence is totally anecdotal and I'm afraid tells us nothing. The SNP claimed that incidents had fallen by 60% on an 'n' value of 7 (in real terms a drop of 5 to 2 collected over a very short period of time). The entire scheme was flawed apparently because the SNP do not understand statistics (Mark Twain again).
Flawed evidence is even worse then no evidence.
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# 44
If it's not a bit of paper then what is it?
I'm not being partisan, I'm simply asking for clarification of your strange but possibly interesting suggestion. I have a driving licence- it's a bit of paper, I have a TV licence, it's a bit of paper. What form would this lcence take?
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Anybody remember what Prohibition was?
Anybody remember that it doesn't work?
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#44
PS rev
'Let him that is without sin cast the first stone'
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#45.
I appreciate that there needs to be consensus between parties to get laws passed and you make a good point of the oppositions MSPs having a duty working in the interests of their constiuents to get laws passed that are in their interests but what i object to is the childish behaviour of "well what will you do about it then" rather than them actually trying to reach out and get a consensus.
The main problem is the SNP propose to ban people from buying alcohol, the majority of which through no fault of their own. This is fundamentally unfair. The SNP do not propose this for the good of our health, its aimed at cutting crime. The problem with politics is there is too much point scoring going on...its easier to target the crinimal / gang culture elements in society rather than attempt to help deprived areas and lessen the ever widening gap of wealth and inequality that exists today. It's a quick fix solution for the SNP but they have shot themselves in the foot. as a former SNP voter i have been left with a bitter taste in my mouth that my rights and liberty ( to drink as I like which only affects my health (after all there are laws in place to stop / punish me if i harm others)) are expendable or alterable if it suits the needs of the SNPs reputation.
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The simplest steps to take initially is make drink dearer, make it available in fewer outlets and make it available for fewer hours each day. Scotland has and has had a drinking problem for centuries(along with other northern European groups). Whoever thought the beat way to deal with this was to make alcohol cheaply availbable almost round the clock was probably involved in the distilling or brewing industries. Anyone who thought that longer hours would make us all turn Mediterranean was bonkers.
I can think of no compelling reason why supermarkets and corner shops should sell alcohol and no compelling reason why pubs should be open 18 hours a day.
All alcohol sales should be done through pub and pub off-licence or licensed grocer outlets.
They are much more responsible and it would put the price up as supermarkets selling alcohol as loss leaders is the real reason for our streets being awash with alcohol. The present situation of long hours and reduced per hour revenue is resulting in deteriorating pubs and is putting pubs out of business. The pub is the most responsible environment for drinking yet many people now only arrive very late at the pub already half-cut having drunk a cheap carry out before leaving the house.
I've held drinks licences in a social club, a pub, a hotel and a grocer shop so I'm fairly well informed on this matter.
The SNP should get me to frame their drink legislation.
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#43 Thomas
I agree that much booze is bought for youngsters by older relatives/friends.
However, in all the small towns I've lived in, I've known the off-licences that were strict, and those that happily sold drink even when they knew it was going to under 18s.
Since licences are issued by the Local authority, it doesn't seem unreasonable that those shops whose products are regularly found in the possession of young people should have their licences removed. In any case, there are far too many prmises selling drink.
I quite like the system here in North Carolina, where supermarkets only sell beer and wine. Fortified wines and spirits can only be bought from a few licensed stores.
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#56.
I believe the Nationalists have gave the entire Parliament an opportunity to create their own solutions. The Nationalists are allowing every other party their say, they have outlined how far they are willing to go and at least we should admire how the Nationalists are prepared to take radical steps towards possible solutions to national problems. Are they still considered a populist party? They will be enemy No1 with the younger generation after this little attempt to stop them drinking.
Besides you may believe that the SNP are taking away your right to drink as you please. You said that you hurt no one apart from your health but I will remind you taxpayers (that you are aswell) fund the NHS which currently spends billions on alcohol related problems. Your innocent drink as you please attitude that I am sure many have (I do to) hurts everyone financially. I don't want to pay for your right to drink as you please. I don't want to pay for problems you bring on yourself. The SNP have brought a major problem into the limelight and I hope we change our drinking culture eventually. It does not have to change through law but I am sure many will have it in our minds now.
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Oldnat:
"Since licences are issued by the Local authority, it doesn't seem unreasonable that those shops whose products are regularly found in the possession of young people should have their licences removed."
Ah very true. Perhaps younger children should be used to attempt to buy alcohol more often. They could work alongside the police and then the police could swoop in afterwards and warn the premises or close them down. It would be an unusual weekend job but most interesting.
I don't know how we can change something we all grow up with to be honest.
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#30 I think this is the most balanced post on the issue and worthy of consideration as it targets the problem areas while simplifying the ridiculous, 16-18-21 issue.
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Put pubs, clubs, hotels and off licences on a points system like driving licences; three points for every offence committed by drunks in or outside the place where the alcohol was purchased. When it hits ten points then an automatic loss of licence for one year. Then watch the number off drunks drop on a Saturday night.
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#59
maybe i got sidetracked a little and yes your right that binge drinking has an impact on tax payers finance but my main point is that the govt is trying to tackle crime, not our health. if it was a health issue then we would just have a 1920s tried and failed prohibition.
The law won't affect me much, i'll be 21 before it could be passed but I reject it will improve matters if the rest of society remains unchanged. The govt would rather do slap a ban on booze than actually tyring to make society a fairer place giving the people who are disaffected something worth living for...something will take the place of alcohol and im confident it wont be productive. Alchohol is the opium of the masses and it will only be substituted with another opiate.
I agree its good to have this debate on the table, Alcohol abuse needs to be discussed and talked about. Admitting there is a problem is the first step towards rehabilitation afterall.
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#62.
Put the Clubs/Pubs and off licences on a point system for offences committed by drunks? It could not work. Alcohol could not be traced from off licences and of course the premises should not be held responsible for the actions of individuals. Pubs/Clubs are capable of refusing the sale of alcohol but again why should they also be responsible for the trouble an individual causes later on in the day? I understand if what the off licences/Clubs and Pubs are doing something illegal in the first place but selling alcohol is there business and they again should not be held responsible for doing what they are suppose to do because of the actions of others.
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#63.
Do not believe that the Government are only acting to lower crime. They will also act to save themselves money which will happen with less alcohol problems but you will never hear them say they are passing a Bill to save them money... If does not look right but if they claim to pass the Bill to lower crime then it appears better to the public.
I would rather see the Parliament work towards changing our attitude towards alcohol. However I do see the Nationalists attempting to take a tough subject head on and would support the Bill if there was conditions to reverse the Bill if it did not change what was originally claimed it would. As I stated earlier though alcohol comes from parents, older relatives and older friends so there are doubts that new laws and enforcing laws will do much here.
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the SNP are to be congratulated for bringing this proposal forward.
the bill will fail in parliament, but at least the problem is being talked about.
yes, it appears that the pilot schemes worked, but they were backed up with more police patrols, so you do not know what effect the ban on its own had.
if a shop is caught selling to under age drinkers, take away the shop licence for good and ban the seller from ever holding a licence again, that would take care of the under 18s buying drink at off licences.
maybe somewhere along the line some good ideas will be suggested, but the situation cannot be allowed to continue for the good of the nations health and reputation, all ages not just under 21s.
remember the majority of people do not over indulge, its the minority who do and its a minority of them that cause trouble.
most people go out to enjoy a night out and cause no problems, but unfortunatly drink brings out the aggresive and destructive nature of some people and thats where the problems arise and its usualy the innocent that suffer.
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#53 I'm not sure how much more clearly I can explain it. It's a notional licence, not something that exists physically. If you're banned from drinking and are caught doing it, or with alcohol in your bloodstream, then you get very severely dealt with. Anyone under a ban would have to take a very big risk of being reported by someone, since alcohol shows up on a breathalyser even the next day.
Anti-social drinking isn't limited to the young. Everyone ranting on about enforcing existing laws on selling to the underage misses that point. The fact of the matter is that some people, from 16 to 60, can't handle booze without becoming morons. And those people should be stopped from drinking, just like we stop people who can't handle a car from driving.
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I am an SNP member but am against the proposal of banning off sales to under 21s. I think more needs to be done to enforce existing legislation that makes it illegal for under 18s to be supplied with alcohol. This is where the problem lies--kids as young as 12 getting plastered on a regular basis. By the time they have reached 18 their bad habits with booze are ingrained. How do these kids get their alcohol? Why are more parents and shopkeepers being fined for supplying to minors? I think these proposals focus on the wrong age group.
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How about tying a knot in their......er......you-know-whats, as that will certainly control their binge drinking.
What?
Ah, don't knock it until its been trialled.
"Hey, are you crying, laddie?"
"No, I'm just full."
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If anything lays the SNP low now it will be this tendency to stupid and discriminatory authoritarianism.
Why on earth should under-21s be prepared to take a foreigner's bullet for the state without the right to get toasted in return?
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As well as fining anyone under age who is caught trying to buy alcohol, fine their parents as well. Fine those that sell it to them.
Are there classes akin to those attended by those committing driving offences, but aimed at boozers? If not, why not? Make offenders attend those too.
But do not penalize those law-abiding citizens who just happen to be in the same ag range as the law breakers!
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1. Why has every party of any political persuation resolutely ignored the pratcise of selling alcohol as a loss leader by supermarkets?
Ban that for a start.
2. Reduce the licensing hours back to where they were. Who really needs to buy alcohol at 8am?
3. Ban the practice of having alcohol in various areas of supermarkets, scattered throughout other foodstuffs. Put it all in one area, behind barriers.
4. One good way to restrict sales to 18+ would be to have all alcohol purchased by Credit Card. A bonus of this would be to focus peoples minds on how much they are spending on alcohol when the bill arrives each month.
5. A major problem for off sales is that of 'agents'. Over 18s buying for under 18s, who are hiding round the corner. This needs to be tackled, and it's unfair on licensees to be expected to police this entirely themselves.
6. Relax restrictions and penalties on pubs. Accept that under 18s will drink. It would be far better to have under 18s drinking in a controlled environment, than getting wasted in a park or on a street corner.
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41. At 2:42pm on 02 Oct 2008, Profspof
Excellent post.
Your experience accords with mine. You also made the point about the effect of the pilot schemes -these were created by local people, in partnership with the police, driven to find a workable solution to a major problem they had with youth crime and vandalism. Congratulations to these brave folk and the police that supported them, they found a workable solution that has evaded the rest of us for years.
However, the pilots were aimed at evening and night crime and only banned sales in the afternoon and evening. In this respect they differ markedly from the wider ban, and that is probably why commentators think that the end result will be a nation-wide compromise not unlike the structure of these pilots.
It now seems possible, as the end result is likely to be what was done in pilot, something opposed by both Tories and Labour, that the Government has once again played a neat political hand.
Another thought. Being friendly with some publicans, they have more and more onerous duties under the law, one of the many reasons they have to charge so much more than the supermarkets. They are required to, and do police their establishments - I have seen it first hand, with people (of all ages) banned and only allowed back once an apology and a promise has been given. The supermarkets have no such duty. Any scheme that urges folk away from supermarkets (or from the bevvy in a bus shelter) towards these establishments goes someway to compensating these worthy businessmen for their work in support of society.
It may also stem the haemorrhage of licensed closures.
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To Comment No. 40: As a 48 year old University lecturer I would have thought you would know how to spell "balancing".
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Brian writes:
"There is much talk of the 18-year-old who can serve in Iraq - but daren't buy a bottle of beer from an off licence on his return.
Or the 19-year-old who can marry and start a family - but can't buy her pals a bottle of wine to celebrate at home."
So, male reference = Soldier, heroic. Female reference - at home mum with the kids.
You couldn't think of any other female reference to use, Brian, than the cliched role for women? How about buying a bottle of wine to celebrate her university degree in Economics? Or buying a bottle of wine to celebrate landing her new job as Managing Director of her company?
Or, even...and this one is really out there, I know..."There is much talk of the 18-year-old who can serve in Iraq - but daren't buy a bottle of beer from an off licence on HER return."
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#67
I get it now it's a version of the old Stalinist concept of the 'active citizen'.
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#74
Pedant.
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Would first of all those people who thing under 21s didn't act how they do now in the good old days please take their rose tinted glasses off and smell the java! Mods, Rockers, hells angels. That must have been a family friendly picnic at the iconic pictures of Brighton Beach!!!
Alcohol abuse is not restricted to those and as Thomas_Porter points out would be as impossible to stopunder 21s as it is under18.
I don't see how you can say someone has enough sense to vote at sixteen, but they don't know how to drink properly. You are either mature enough for both or none at all.
As some one who now has a relatively safe job, excluding paper cuts, to that from my stint in the army before an MD, I would like to quote a favourite NCO of mine! "Old enough to die for the Queen, old enough to drink for the Queen."
I'm afraid i'm still to be convinced of votes at sixteen and believe that the age of maturity should be set firmly at 18! That's an argument for another day though i guess.
The problem with a lot of peoples drinking habits is they want to drink to get drunk, and don't see the point in it otherwise. With some of the drinks you wonder why you want to drink them for anyother reason!
I blame TV!!!!
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As an added extra, why if the SNP are so concerned about the evils of drink have the allowed an appeal to let a pub be build that will be surrounded on 3 sides by a primary school. It was original rejected by the council, but they have been over ruled!
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Great, the motion has been passed. Hopefully this will be the end of this terrible piece of authoritarian legislation.
What's interesting is that the nationalists trying to turn a Northern European problem into a distinctly 'Scottish' problem. Part of the national psyche, a national problem, etc. Hence the need for 'national' action. Occam's Razor suggests otherwise.
That said, a government that was truly determined to tackle binge drinking would avoid promoting hobbies and events which encourage it. Music festivals and certain sports fixtures come to mind here. How much public money is spent advertising these boozefests?
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What I find surprising about all those negative comments is how ill-informed the majority of them are. This isn't about banning 18-21 year olds from buying alchohol, no matter how much SNP-hating spin you want to put on it. They'll still be able to go to a pub and drink themselves silly (you never know, could even be a boost to Scotland's dying pub trade).
But, at the end of the day, no one can deny Scotland has a problem with the demon drink, a problem that starts, with the vast majority, when they are in their teens. After all, if you walk through a park at night, it's not crowds of 40 year olds you see tanning bottles of buckie, despite most councils having by-laws in place prohibiting such activities.
Something needs to be done, and the SNP should be congratulated to at least be trying to come up with ideas. All those nay-sayers who claim it's their right to criticise without coming up with an alternative can cry dictarorship all they want, but it is true they add absolutely nothing to the debate. We all ready know it's an unpopular idea.
So the status quo remains, with no solution in sight. There'll still be no-go areas in our town centres on Friday/Saturday nights, there'll still be the never ending cycle of teenagers drinking as much as the can in as little time as possible, cramming it all in there to get out of their faces as cheaply as possible.
Yet another victory for common sense, eh?
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#81 ForteanJo: "After all, if you walk through a park at night, it's not crowds of 40 year olds you see tanning bottles of buckie, despite most councils having by-laws in place prohibiting such activities."
But isn't that the point most people have been making - there are laws already in place prohibiting the behaviour this new policy was made to tackle.
Shouldn't the government strat enforcing the laws that exist just now.
It is illegal in most places to drink in the streets, it is illegal to purchase alcohol under the age of 18, it is illegal to purchase alcohol with the intention of passing it on to someone under the age of 18.
Enforce these laws! That
Perhaps, if one law must be changed how about the legal age at which children can drink - that's not buy drink but actually drink - 14!
You can start drinking when you are old enough to buy it - all those "underage" drunks are actually not breaking a law - so how about tackling that?
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Its refreshing reading so many comments by the silent majority of Scotland.
Yes theres quite a few Unionist types who try ruin any conversation by pushing their New Labour bile, but thats normal.
What I would like to say is that this problem of youths drinking and getting out of control is more of a concern to me than worrying about who will be put out because they cant buy a carryout.
I admit that there are areas of this proposal that could make it more acceptable, but we all know that WestLothian was getting out of control and the crime rate was going through the roof. They got together (Council,Police and Parents) and have practically cured the problem over the last 8 months. Youth Drunkeness has dropped dramatically and the crime rate including assaults has practically disappeared.
I think any action which can maintain safe neighbourhoods and save one person from criminal assault is well worthwhile. Dont we want no more kids going to jail, or becoming criminalized.
I am an Indepenence supporter but that does not make me blindly accept what the SNP say or do. However in the case of kids getting access to booze is more objectenable.
Lets give this scheme 6 months and find out if it makes things better than before for the kids and the communities.
As a young guy I committed some really bad assaults on people I didnt even know. I was out of control for quite a few years, and luckily woke up to myself one day in my mid twenties.
Many Scottish young people need help and community social clubs that will give them more to do than walking the streets bored out of their skulls, or sitting in their bedrooms playing fantasy games on their computers.
When Scotland is Independent we should have more of our own money to create facilities for the community to participate in their Indoor sports,hobbies and social interaction. But we are not there yet so lets give the young a better chance.
Alex Salmond isnt like the idiot Broon. He puts common sense ahead of political nonsense. He could create another Quango, but how long do these things take and how many kids go astray in the meantime. Trust the man, he knows what he is doing and has done so much for his ane kind in such a short period of time.
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#83 You are correct, Salmond is not like Gordon Brown. Salmond is a great example of all that is being a Nationalist... small minded with a big chip on his shoulder with a dislike for anything English!
Scotland survive on its own with the SNP at the helm.... you'd have a better chance surviving as a chocolate tea pot!
However, back to the matter in hand. Never mind raising the age to 21. Just apply the existing rules better. Introduce a zero tolerance policy to those who sell booze to those under 18... if you get caught you lose your licence. End of!
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#84 Where as you are the best example of all that it means to be a Unionist - arrogant, patronising and looking down your nose at anybody who thinks democracy would be better served by having our parliament 40 miles away rather than 400.
No wonder the nationalists are on the up.
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#84 - what utter nonsense. Remember Gordon Brown is the openly xenophobic incompetent: 'British jobs for British workers' anyone?
Alex Salmond's nationalism by contrast is open and inclusive (as is shown by the huge % support enjoyed by the SNP amongst Scotland's 'minority groups').
Incidentally, what does Alex Salmond have to have a 'chip on his shoulder' about? By contrast. Gordon seems to think the world owes him some sort of favour - how else can you explain his continued insistance in clinging to an office he was never elected to?
#85 - absolutely correct, people think this sneering attitude against Salmond and the SNP helps their cause?!
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The level of debate on this thread has dropped to the floor.
This is not a Holtrood vs Westminster issue, it is whether social disorder has become so bad in Scotland that we must ban all young adults from buying alchol from an offlicence.
As someone who belives inIndependence for both the person and the state, it is unquestionably wrong to restrict the masses for the sins of the few.
There are a variety of laws to prevent alcohol being sold or passed to the under 18s.
Furthermore, there are existing laws to prevent antisocial behaiour, the selling of alcohol to anyone already inebriated and the smaching of bottles/searing etc in the street.
What is it about this new law that will be the siver bullet for all our alcohol ills ??
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#85... each to their own!
SNP never have and never will do anything for me, they can't decide who they are let alone how they would pay for some of their scatterbrained ideas other than suggest use the tax revenues from Britain's oil.
Oh, and by the way, if the parliament was 40 miles away from me it would be great as it would be nowhere near the central belt which isn't the centre of the universe as some would have us believe.
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Scottishrepublic says:
"Many Scottish young people need help and community social clubs that will give them more to do than walking the streets bored out of their skulls, or sitting in their bedrooms playing fantasy games on their computers.
When Scotland is Independent we should have more of our own money to create facilities for the community to participate in their Indoor sports,hobbies and social interaction. But we are not there yet so lets give the young a better chance."
If Scottish young people are incapable of worthwhile social interaction without help from the state, then the problem is far worse than just alcohol abuse.
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#88 - I take it that's Labour you're talking about. After all, that is (or at least was) their powerbase. The SNP, on the other hand, have votes spread right across Scotland.
As to using revenue from one of Scotland's natural resources - yeah, you're right, what a stupid idea. What government would even contemplate doing that (apart from Norway, the USA, Middle east countries, Russia, in fact, just about every country that has natural resources to exploit!)
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88. At 5:21pm on 03 Oct 2008, deducted3points.
a scottish dreaper prototype.
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#91
Like most Nat's, making no sense at all... I salute you in the style of John Prescott
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92.
must be quiet at the new labour party HQ this morning, as the usual standard of debate from the poster above shows.
it only goes to show that the new labour actavists have no class and only use insults in place of debate.
get a life and stop supporting your slease ridden party.
of course then again you may be the wee wendy herself.
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