Bean counting on a political scale
So where are we on political fall-out from the financial crisis?
I know, I know, it doesn't add up to a hill of beans compared to the impact of the crisis on the economy, jobs, wealth and taxation. But indulge me.
For one thing, we're unlikely to hear over-much from Alex Salmond in future about the "arc of prosperity".
You know, Norway, Ireland.......and Iceland. These were to be the lodestones for Scotland's future financial direction.
Ireland and Norway have their troubles. However, it is the crisis in the Icelandic banking structure which has drawn most attention.
While remaining, of course, deeply consensual at this time of trial, Mr Salmond's rivals at Holyrood can scarcely conceal their schadenfreudic glee at his potential discomfiture.
Indeed, I suspect they will have to slap themselves to stop muttering "Iceland" every time the First Minister mentions small nation independent status in future. There is a further intriguing sidebar to this.
Labour MSPs in particular are beginning, intuitively, to revisit the assertion that Scotland is too wee and poor to be independent.
They don't quite put it that way. Rather, they stress the advantages of the UK financial rescue package.
However, it may add up to much the same pitch to the voters.
In the short, even the medium, term, it may well be effective. Keep tight hold of nurse - and that sort of thing. Again, it will be expressed rather differently. The argument will be that the Union guarantee has worked.
This is a parallel - and still somewhat subterranean - equivalent to the feeling at Westminster that Gordon Brown's position has been strengthened in contradistinction to that of the Conservatives.
Certainly, the PM has regained a sense of governance, a sense of being in control. I would dispute the claim in some quarters that he is "enjoying" the crisis.
There is nothing remotely entertaining about a potential threat to jobs and the economy. These things matter to Gordon Brown - and not just because they could challenge his Premiership. He cares.
However, it might be said that his leadership is thriving on the challenge posed by the economic problems.
He is arguably at his best dealing with a hugely complex intellectual and logistical challenge, drawing together diverse aspects.
Longer term, though, that sense may not last.
If and when the impression of panic in the markets dissipates, politics will return to adversarial conflict.
At which point, voters may base their verdicts on future prospects rather than instant action.
They may, for example, consider the likely impact upon public spending (constrained) and taxation (increased.) They may be less than delighted.
Remember. Churchill won the war. Attlee won the election.
In Scotland, however, the dialogue is rather different. Sundry parties of a Unionist persuasion will, severally and collectively, suggest that Mr Salmond's fundamental economic case has been undermined.
The Nationalists have an answer. They will say that what matters is not, intrinsically, the size of the state but the state of the economic and fiscal policies pursued by the government, together, of course, with global conditions.
However, again in the short and medium term, Mr Salmond may require to devise a new narrative to describe his case.
I'm 
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~52~RS~)
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Nationalists get excited when Scotland's devolved powers are used to provide a unique and precise solutions to our socio-economic problems.
Unionists get excited when world events give them an opportunity to remind everyone how "weak", "small" and "vulnerable" we allegedly are without England protecting us.
Tells you everything you need to know about the cynicism of politician from the respective parties.
Scotland in the Euro will inevitably suffer peaks and troughs in economic activity but with some sound financial regulation in future there's no need for an independent Scotland to suffer as badly as it is in this antediluvian mess of a union.
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Ireland
ah yes that country that wee Alec used to praise so much
Wonder why he hasn't mentioned them lately ..
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Brian, that's it, in a nutshell. But I look forward to a bit of creative wriggling in response! Let's see how a worm on a hook feels.
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Yes Brian, it certainly is advisable for Mr Salmond to rest his economic tonsils and hide his guidebook on Economic Management and Running Wee Countries, for dummies. This realy is not the time to bore the country with the SNP's ill concieved pursuit to join the Arc of Insolvency.
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Quite Correct Brian,
Labour will scaremonger. However, it is up to the SNP to reveal how the union dividend did not protect Scotland from the ravages of the world economy.
Surely this will also play to the SNPs very pro-Europe stance. There is now bigger nurse in the field than the UK and seemingly safer harbour to the country at a time such as this?
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This argument that Scotland is too wee and poor to stand alone is not only propaganda tripe, but is just plain rubbish.
If anything given our natural resources we would be be in a far better postion to weather this storm.
Given the past few days it is cear that this so called "union " has done nothing to protect or help Scotland.
Maybe it is time to change to record.
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I wonder what convinces you Brian, of the intellectual superiority of Gordon Brown ? Is it the degree in politics, or perhaps the wee spell as a BBC sports reporter? Do you honestly think that Brown actually now or as chancellor made any meaningful economic decisions ? That is why the treasury employs hundreds of economists and other financial experts to make decisions. Brown may suggest what he wants as befits the political needs, but he certainly has neither the expertise nor indeed the economic knowledge to actually deliver what he wants. And his claims " of innovative decisive action " taken by himself and Alistair Darling was what a lot of people had advocated for some considerable time while he and Darling dithered about what to do.Finally they bit the bullet and did it, and the " independent " governor of the Bank of England was ordered by the European central bank to cut interest rates, which he duly did. Meanwhile Brown's masters in Europe seem to find it unneccesary to supply massive amounts of cash to their banks on a blanket basis. I suspect that their regulators actually did what they are charged with doing, unlike the British version which appears to have been totally ineffective probably due to the Government not wanting to jeapordise the vast tax take from the financial institutions.
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#4 Salmondella: "Running Wee Countries for Dummies" - brilliant! I just knew there was a script for Nats to follow. I think Alex will be battering the Control-Alt-Delete keys right now!
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Brian,
The market has eaten the £500 billion of our money that Brown has committed to his so called ‘rescue package’ without so much as a hiccup and is now, like a hungry chick screeching open mouthed in the nest, demanding more. To me his much vaunted financial strategy seems to be amounting to no more than declaring that ‘all is now OK’ because he has bought us a £500 bn lottery ticket that will solve all of our financial problems when his numbers come up. You say Brown really cares! I think that it is sickening to watch him laughing and joking about ‘another bank failing’ and being so pleased with himself for having simply bought a few days good headlines with a vast amount of our money.
Some economic genius!
As for the so called Union dividend, presumably your analysis is predicated on the UK having the wherewithal to weather this storm better than Salmond’s Arc of Prosperity. However, all available evidence suggests that the market is sucking us in the UK down the self same plug hole as Iceland and Ireland. Moreover, I suspect that the UK’s vast debt binge means that we are in for a much rougher time than either Iceland or Ireland suffered. Add to that thought, the prospect that because we in Scotland do not have the capacity to shape their own recovery, it will be slower and much more painful that the (possibly more nimble) economies who have the such a capacity for independent action .
Some Union dividend!
Alasdair Stirling
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#1 northy makes a very good point with his response but, #3 brigadier I see you are back to your old "lets have a dig at the nats" campaign.
You can fool some of the people some of the time brig but I've got my beady eye on you.
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Norway has it's troubles has it?
Complete nonsense... I spoke last night to a Norwegian friend and he told me the only real problem Norway has is deciding which Scottish based oil and gas service company they should buy next!!
If you want to make a point Brian it always helps to get your facts right...
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Careful everybody or we may provoke another outburst of 'Global Conspiracy Against Scottish Nationalism No.7'.
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#1 northy
True, and spot on re Euro. Brian is probably right that the FM won't be talking about Ireland until the dust settles a little and we can all take stock, but good, bad or indifferent it's the closest model there is to the SNP policy of independence within the EU.
The whole crisis is certainly a very good argument for joining the Euro - whether now for the UK or Scotland in the future.
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If anything this whole situation actually strengthens the case for Independence, given that Scotland could act quicker and be more responsive to given events. Along with the fact that we would be in a much stronger postion financially.
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So Iceland, Ireland and Norway have suddenly plummeted into total poverty, whereas the United Kingdom is riding high above the financial crisis, yeah? Erm...
Every country is in trouble, regardless of size. If the argument is that Scotland would not survive as an independent nation, then that implies the big countries are all going to be okay. But we all know this is not the case; the UK, Germany, USA, even China and Russia - they're all in trouble. Their size just means bigger bailouts, and let's face it, the whole crisis is a direct result of the dodgy bank dealings in the UK and the USA (itself a union of smaller states). Just one look at the BBC's articles on how this is affecting everyone merely serves to highlight one basic truth that people like me could have told you would happen one day - globalisation is BAD!
This is all a result of countries not being in proper control of their own finances. It has nothing to do with a country's size. The bigger they are, the harder they fall?
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Brian
A fair blog, I think that the stadard of debate will inevitably sink back to the previous dire level.
I don think Gordon Brown has done reasonably well in difficult circumstances. I disagree with the dithering hypothesis, comitting huge sums of money in the way it has been done requires a little consideration. Act in Haste repent at leisure.
I reckon thought the electorate will come out of this wanting a complete change of direction.
So the analogy of Churchill and Attlee is a good one.
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#7 kaybraes
Well said. The idea that every regulator is ineffective is, at best, not proven and in practice farcical.
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An interesting blog Brian...I can't imagine it provoking much response;-)
Followers of these threads will know that I'm a small "u" unionist and, despite being more usually slightly to the right of centre on most issues, I do believe in the Union as a commonwealth of people who mutually support one another (e.g. I'm angered by the price of fuel for remote communities or...the suggestion that posting letters should cost more in the Highlands than in Surrey etc etc). Rather unfashionably I'm probably a one-nation conservative
It's true that the events of the past few weeks have put the boot into Alec's plans somewhat and he is in the arkward position of trying to dismiss the Union Guarantee in the shape of the very considerable support from English taxpayers to what, just a few weeks ago, were "proud Scottish banks". I don't mind this by the way...commonwealth and all that.
A hypothetical question that occurs to me though. If independence from the monstrous tyranny of Westminster is so important, why should money be an issue? If the Nats were so convinced of the need for that final hurdle of independence (in addition to devolved matters, the Law, education, religion etc etc) and the oppression is so bad then surely independence should come whatever the cost. The Scottish people should, to a man, be convinced of this and strive for "freedom" at whatever cost. After all, the Irish Republic managed it.
If you can't do this then you look well...a wee bit mercenary. Surely better to be free and poorer. Otherwise you face the future as a Tartan Quebec...endlessly prickly, dissatisfied and disruptive, but lacking the guts to go it alone!
Doubtless when the crisis has passed and the SNP has recovered its chutzpah I, like other Englishmen can look at my well-bitten hand and wonder again whether its worth it?
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I've no doubt that the unionist parties will grasp this opportunity to undermine Alex Salmond's positive vision for Scotland, no surprise there.
However I don't think their ressurecting of the old mantra of "we're no big enough to go it alone" will really wash. After all the blame for this financial crisis will not be laid at the door of the SNP.
Gordon Brown (ardent fan of Globalisation)may appear as some sort of man of action "superhero" right now, but people will remember who was at the helm when their revised tax codes come in, it will be no laughing matter then.
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#7 Kaebraes
Is this based on insider knowledge or is it just inside your head?
Continental regulators, despite GB's exhortations prefer to try to tackle this on a case by case basis...but they are still spending plenty of money bailing out failing institutions. Who's right will only be settled with time.
The idea that Mervyn King takes his orders from Frankfurt is funny. The main economies took a co-ordinated step to cut interest rates by a half percentage point. The reason that they did this together is to avoid unnecessary exchange rate fluctuations caused by mobile capital. I'm willing to suggest that the US and UK would have liked to cut a whole point but the ECB, with its exclusive obsession with inflation would have preferred not to introduce any inflationary pressures...hence the compromise
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News just in: Iceland has asked Denmark to re-unify. They say they are very sorry for being such troublesome upstarts and the whole independence thing was a bad idea from the start. They were only kidding and didn't think anyone would take them seriously. Then it all got a bit out of hand. Sorry again.
Similarly Ireland is asking the UK to return to the fold with appropriate grovelling apologies for any inconvenience caused.
Meanwhile Norway is seeking re-unification with Sweden. Finland is seeking security in the embrace of either or both of Sweden and Russia (they aren't fussy, the more the merrier). And even since I started writing this, Norway has expressed a desire to return to the safety of the old realm of Denmark-Norway. In turn Denmark has replied that they all might as well return to the protective bosom of the Kalmar Union.
Yes, truly the arc of prosperity is dead. Or should I check my sources...?
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9. I don't think there is anything in this particular nationalist's post that isn't total nonsense!
AlasdairStirling, I doff my virtual hat to your absolute refusal to comprehend events, instead relying wholly on your wonderfully psychotic imagination.
(Maybe you can ask one of your fellow nats to bring you up to speed on what is really happening?)
11. Wee-scamp, this all certainly applies to you too!
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#10 Jake: Sorry. Clearly my misunderstanding. So it's only the Nats who, on "their blog," are allowed to have digs at supposed Unionists?
Anyway, that's me rubbished - so what DO you think about Brian's assessment of the state of play.
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#9
The UK economy has its faults but to say that it is not nimble flies in the face of all evidence. The reason that the UK avoided recession in 2003 whilst the Continental economies wallowed in recession and high unemployment for three years. It is precisely because our economy is relatively nimble that it managed to avoid serious trouble at the time. We are thankfully, not as nimble as the US economy as I don't think that we would stomach that level of insecurity. Are you proposing a US style economy in Scotland on which to base your nimbleness or are you just indulging in the vague "I'm sure we would naturally do everything much better" hubris that infests these posts?
The type of economy usually proposed by nationalist supporters, with restrictive labour laws and statist policies would, I venture face a much longer haul itself back to health.
Either you guys really don't know much or this is just sheer dissembling.
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Norway has troubles?
Gordon cares?
Brian, you haven't taken to drink, have you? you're blethering, man!!
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14. Denial, the opium of the nationalists.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
It seems that Brown might of been telling porkies yet again.
"Now, might the G7 nations also have discussed a co-ordinated bank recapitalisation? If so then the embattled Brown could break ranks and announce his before the rest of them – allowing him to falsely claim that everyone is following his bright idea."
http://www.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2210201/is-browns-plan-to-rescue-the-worlds-financial-system-really-his.thtml
The pro unionist think that to have a successful economy it has to be based mainly on money manipulation. A countries natural resources are worth an awful lot more and are not subject to the "Boom or Bust" fast buck mentality that exists.
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Brownedov
Your posts always intrigue me...presumably you are the Honourable Member for Lausanne Central.
You advocate the EU yet reside in a country that shuns membership? You demand regulation to rein the excesses the financiers, yet you reside in a country that offers "no questions asked" banking services.
You scoff at the Union Dividend yet are happy to live in a country that enjoys the dividends of looking after the proceeds of genocide, organised crime, war, grand fraud, drugs cartels. The low tax lifestyle you enjoy is built on the bones of the murdered, the dispossessed, and the cheated. The charmingly democratic (provided you're born Swiss) set-up and picture postcard scenery hides a smugly ugly secret. Your moralistic tone rings hollow.
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#12 Reluctant-Expat
Is it not time you found a job?
You have yet to put any decent arguements forth for remaining in the union.
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Brian,
WARNING - LABOUR PARTY PROPAGANDA
You should headline your blog with the above 'health warning' since this is all it amounts to!!
Think your article is badly flawed as it picks on the headline stories and fails to delve beyond the headlines.
For example, this so-called global crisis is not that at all. It is predominantly an Anglo-American problem with a few mavericks thrown in.
For example, have you heard of any Canadian Banks, Japanese Banks, French Banks, Spanish Banks going under?? Further to take your use of Ireland and Iceland as examples to beat the FM with, have you heard of any Swedish Banks, Norwegian Banks, Danish Banks having to be rescued by their governments? These are countries that the FM also draws comparisons with.
It does not matter how you seek to establish a regulatory system or introduce prudent financial management systems there will always be the mavericks and speculators who seek to beat the system and that's pretty well what has happened with Iceland. Even an economic novice will know that you cannot survive paying punters 1 or 1.5% more than all your other competitors and expect to stay in business!
And our Iron Chancellor, his Treasury underlings and local councils en masse around the country apparently never thought for a moment that there should be such a thing as risk limitation so that you would not place deposit funds with Icelandic finance houses, even when reputable credit agencies were issuing real health warnings about the risks!
The American Banks have survived very well with the more restricted investment houses (Lehman's, etc) falling largely due to their dependency on trading derivatives, hedges etc, most of which have little or no trade or economic transaction behind then. The real crises for them and us has been the mortgage market and the UK and the USA lead the way with bail-outs for foolishly-run building societies/mortgage lenders.
And just what is this overwhelming desire for people like Iain Gray and Tavish Tweedledum to save BOS?? In case they had not noticed BOS was lost years ago when the RBS smacked it in the face and won NatWest from under its nose! BOS then went into hiding in its vaults on the Mound and a few years later required to be rescued by a Building Society and in the intervening years has been transmorgified into a mortgage shop, for pity's sake!! And the bleaters go on and on about having a non-banker at the helm - why not?? BOS is no longer a Bank - it's a mortgage retailer!
Still, Brian, the generally intellectually-challenged Labour MSP will flock to your blog and wave it in front of the FM at every opportunity.
But, then again, wasn't that what you intended:)
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I am sorry, in what way is the financial crisis, created by Gordon Brown and the London money-market (and their equivalent's around the world), a damning assessment of independence?
This happened on the Unionist's watch. This happened under their financial oversight,and it also is going to affect the UK particularly badly -f you believe the IMF and OECD. Whereas well placed smaller West European nations like Norway, Sweden, Denmark, The Netherlands, Switzerland etc ... etc ... are going to ride it out fairly easily.
# forfar loon - exactly right, even if it were the case that this down-turn favours large 'nations' over small (which it emphatically doesn't). It favours well run nations in surplus, such as Norway, as opposed to a badly-run heavily-indebted 'nation' such as Great Britain.
Labour and their supporter's glee when the Chancellor who promised 'an end to boom and bust', is overseeing a financial meltdown as PM is shocking. Frankly, they must have been praying for the bottom to fall out of the economy (in the hope that it would dramatically change the polls North and South of the border).
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#21 forfar-loon
Brilliant!
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"There is nothing remotely entertaining about a potential threat to jobs and the economy. These things matter to Gordon Brown - and not just because they could challenge his Premiership. He cares."
That's why he's swanning around with a big grin on his face and why the Labour party are rubbing their hands with glee at the financial problems in Iceland.
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#18 Anglophone
"I'm probably a one-nation conservative"
#24 Anglophone
"The reason that the UK avoided recession in 2003 whilst the Continental economies wallowed in recession and high unemployment for three years. It is precisely because our economy is relatively nimble that it managed to avoid serious trouble at the time."
You seem to have forgotten the '97, '01 & '05 elections.
Amnesia?
Scizophrenia?
Or just proving my contention that there's a fag-paper's difference between NuLab Tories and BluLab Tories?
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31. For example, have you heard of any Canadian Banks, Japanese Banks, French Banks, Spanish Banks going under?? Further to take your use of Ireland and Iceland as examples to beat the FM with, have you heard of any Swedish Banks, Norwegian Banks, Danish Banks having to be rescued by their governments?
Yes and yes.
If it was just the UK and USA involved in this then why are so many other central banks from around the world involved?
Maybe you should read the papers and then you wouldn't make a complete fool of yourself.
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Unionists only thrive when they can do Scotland down. It really is pathetic. You would think from Unionists glee that UK was completely unaffected by this storm and that Scotland has weathered well under the shield. Totally out of touch. Well the coming months will show just how well Scotland is protected by the Union. I’m glad it’s only the tiny independent countries, like say America, Germany and Japan that are suffering the financial crash.
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#29 Anglophone
Thanks for the rant. I hadn't noticed myself using the term Union Dividend but perhaps I should start.
As it happens, I'm a British Citizen and a semi-retired professional for one of the many UN agencies based in Switzerland - hence partly the need to protect my identity. I'll become an EU resident again around the time I collect the full old age pension I've been paying voluntary NI contributions for over the past few decades of expatry.
I'm not quite sure where that will be yet, but if you'd share your Post Town I'll know somewhere to avoid.
Glad to see you support the Swiss goals in life.
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What comes to mind when you think of wee Eck trying to deal with the present crisis if Scotland was independent, is John McEnroe " You cannot be serious"
It is surely clear to most Scots, except for the Nats, that Scotland within the UK means we can have a say in what is happening and influence events.
When confronted with the HBOS/ Lloyds TSB problems the FM was really powerless both initially and now. At least GB was able to make things happen.
Tavish Scott has , however, raised the issue of changed circumstances and wee Eck has really no idea of what to do. His forte is the rhetoric but is at a loss on how he can influence events.
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26. Dependency, the small man inferiority complex of the unionist.
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Well Brian, so Gordon Brown cares does he? Was he caring when he emasculated the gas and electricity regulator allowing the mostly foreign owned energy companies to apply huge and improper price rises? "Oh the market would sort that kind of thing out", he said. Does he care that he could at a stroke cut out the VAT on energy charges and thus provide at least a helping hand to us all? Let's face it, when in opposition, the Labour Party denounced the imposition of VAT on energy as scandalous and vowed to remove it when they achieved power. Aye right.
Gordon Brown has been at the heart of this so-called, "economic downturn". He and Blair simply carried on with the already discredited Thatcherite economics that had blighted and destroyed societies the world over....greed is good and all that mince!
All we heard from them was, "longest period of sustained growth this century". Aye and at what price? Our industries both north and south of the border were systematically either destroyed or taken down and reassembled in China or some such, 'unregulated' place. When workers complained about being thrown onto the heap they were told that they had to be, 'flexible and competitve' and to cut along to the nearest call centre where they could become 'team players'...at least until even that was 'outsourced' to India.
Growth is just another name for profit on profit and that kind of thinking eventually reaches a big, brick wall. Let's face it, if as a company you make x profit one year and then 'restructure' by sacking your workforce and moving production to China to make even more of a profit next year, you can't do it again the following year because you have nothing to dispose of. Mind you, BT have found a way around this by charging you for paying your bill!
It all had to end somewhere and it has ended now in fiscal meltdown. NO bank is safe. If they all fail despite the stakes that UK GOV have taken in them, the Treasury simply will not have the money to give everyone their money back without rendering the country bankrupt.
As usual, it will be the little people who will have to bear the brunt of it with hyper inflation and Depression. It is only a matter of time before some of the large companies that have been actively acquiring other companies over recent years bites the dust as their borrowing comes to an end. Then the snowball will really get going.
You can accuse me of scaremongering if you like but stuffing your head down into the quicksand is not the way to go. We have to face up to it. Let's start pointing fingers at the guilty, and when given the opportunity, vote them out and into lecture touring oblivion.
Yes Wee Eck got the Iceland bit a touch wrong. But one thing is for sure, he has a long way to go before he hits the heights of fecklessness achieved by 'Yogi Bear' Gray and his all singing and all dancing marionettes.
Scotland on it's own could weather this relatively unharmed if it was independent of Westminster, I am quite convinced of that. We need to be free to make our own mistakes and not have to suffer the consequences of the appalling decisions of this government and it predecessors.
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brian you have said that labour has returned to the too wee too poor argument and look what happens when a wee independent country gets caught up in a credit cruch.
your missing the flip side of that argument brian.
In the great scheme of things this credit crunch is probably the very worst situation that could happen to ANY independent country including scotland apart from war.
what happens when the credit crunch is over Brian because it will end eventually.
is iceland still going to exist are they going to be beggin to be taken back by the danish. is life still going to go on as normal for icelanders because according to the unionists everyone in scotland will be sitting with a begging bowl and society will collapse when independence comes. "turning scotland into a third world country" was one of the phrases i often heard. Okay lets see if iceland becomes a third world country or if they beg the danes to take them back.
If it doesnt bye bye unionist scare story number 332.
and by the way increased taxes (i seem to remember labour saying something about a 5000 pound tax bill under the snp) no one told us it was going to be labour imposing them because of their financial mess. If scotland had economic control im quite sure this wouldnt have happened. Alex salmond wouldnt have let this happen if he had the power to do anything. gordon brown did let it happen and was the primary cause of the credit crunch in britain.
gordon brown sold of the gold reserves which are now worth a fortune.
that wasnt very prudent
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30. Pro-union arguments have been posted on countless occasions. Naturally, all nats, to a lad, scoff wildly at them before dashing back under their blankies to their own little world, as if that undermines them all.
There is plenty of info on the internet (ie. that area beyond snp.org and wikipedia.com) but here's some c&p just for you:
* One of the major power-brokers of the UN, and a permanent member of the Security Council.
* A member of the G8 group that sets global economic policy.
* One of the Big Four in the EU that sets the route taken by the Union Project.
* The strongest military power in the EU, the second largest in NATO and one of the few European countries (and the world) that can actually defend itself without outside help (an ability greatly enhanced by those nasty nukes the SNP hates so much).
* Also a major partner in the OSCE, OSCD, World Bank, IMF, the WTO and the Council of Europe.
So far, we see that the UK is one of the leading political and economic powers in the world.
And Salmond's proposal for a 'voice fo Scotland' is....?
Anyway, we continue:
* One of the lowest-indebted countries in the EU with a govt debt ratio considerably lower than many EU members.
* The second largest economy in the EU with forecasts that the UK will become the largest around 2020.
* One of the largest donors and operators in international development in the world. The leader of the recent success that removed all debt from the world's poorest nations.
* Is the 5th largest trading nation in the world
* Exports more per head than Japan
* Is the third largest investor in world companies after the US and Japan (overseas investments worth $1.4trillion as of last year)
* Home of one of the world's principal cultures, many of the world's major sports and home of the world's principal language.
* London is Europe's richest region, with two more UK regions in the top ten
* World Bank ranks the UK 1st in Europe and 6th in the world as a place to operate a business
* Has more corporations in the Top 2000 list of world's largest companies than Germany and France combined and is, again, the third ranked after USA and Japan.
* Is currently the world's leading destination for inward investment (UK and USA always battling it out for top spot) with more invested in the UK than even in China
* Home to Europe's principal stock exchange and one of the largest in the world
* And is still one of the world's financial capitals, forecast to overtake New York to become the largest in the near future (which may well be even nearer now)
* Ranked 2nd to US for scientific research
* Home of six of the top ten universities in Europe. Also two of the global top five.
I'm sure others can come up with several more but that will do for now.
Not bad for a country with just 1% of the world's population.
Perhaps you can now give us an insight into the SNP's 'flawless' economic plan for an independent Scotland. Or is that being hastily rewritten now?
And then continue with details how Scotland's voice will be more prominent in this global community if outside the UK.
Just how would Salmond and the SNP arrange for Scotland to better all that?
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35 Brownedov
Once again you've really got me...I just don't understand your post.
I described myself as small "c" conservative of the one nation type. I would have thought you would know the difference in political terminology. Here's a hint...it doesn't mean that I'm a paid up member of the Tory Party
On your second point ...I have simply no idea how the previous three general elections relate to the relative flexibility of the UK's economy and that of the big Continental economies. Were you replying to a different post?
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A question for the nats please..
...should/would an independant Scotland follow Irelands example, and guarantee all deposits with Scottish Banks?
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Anglophone, just to say I have no idea either what point Brownedov thinks he is making in his #35.
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Interesting - I'll try again - The EBC are being censorious.
Can anyone tell me what is clever about Brownovitch's Darling piling up £500 billion or so of tax payers' money in a big heap and shovelling it into the back pockets of the same financiers whose inane punt with the Square Mile Bookies got us into this untrammelled mess in the first place?
Nope?
How about Scottish media running down one of the few UK banks (RBOS) which does not need propping up by Gordonovitch because of toxic debt?
Wonder why?
Maybe the unionists can explain why the year on year increase in the Scottish Block Grant was 11.3% with Labour at Holyrood and only 3.5% with SNP at Holyrood when inflation is higher by far now.
Couldn't be Labour were in competent?
How about the people who lent taxpayers money to Icelandic Banks only to get it back as expensive PFI contracts to pay for schools?
The only people around here who are too wee, too stupid and too impoverished (see Labour's known fiscal debt) are Labour and their benighted Union.
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#8 - How quickly we forget, eh brigadier? It was Jack the lad and nu-lab who labeled Scotland "the best wee country in the world" and who's copy of "Running Wee Countries for Dummies" had "Refer to big brother at Westminster" on every page.
The Nationalists at least dropped the patronising tag of "wee". Sad to see how quickly Nu lab unionists want to return to it as a means of scare mongering and bashing any Scot with aspirations that chooses to stay in Scotland. Sad to see any Scot supporting them and take in joy in the label.
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#38 Brownedov
The UN eh? That explains your gift for communication;-)
"I'm not quite sure where that will be yet, but if you'd share your Post Town I'll know somewhere to avoid."
Ahh Brownedov, to become my neighbour you would have to live in England. I live in a very beautiful part, well away from London. There's hills (of sorts), surf, quite a lot of sunshine usually and a very laid back lifestyle. I imagine that you will wish to retire closer to the keening pipes, where you can't see where the buildings end and the sky begins (I'm influenced by my Aberdeen years there).
"Glad to see you support the Swiss goals in life."
Again...how do you do it? What do you mean? Or could it be very clever double meaning from which I deduce that...because I'm English I would therefore obviously aspire to a morally ambivalent financial system based on the spoils of genocide, war and dictatorship. You wicked satirist you!
Enjoy your remaining years in the antiseptic idyll, but don't scratch the surface. There's bodies down there!
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#23 brigadier.
To be honest brigadier I think the whole thing is a lot tosh and piffle.
With all these supposed leaders of governments and leaders of the financial markets running around like headless chickens apparently not knowing how to get out of the mire that they invented.
It means nothing to me at the moment but I suppose that when the impact filters down to the plebs like myself we won't be getting any bonuses
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42. I see the SNP's core support is home from school.
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There's absolutely no point in arguing with a Nationalist. It's not a coherent political philosophy but is a sort of quasi-religion based on irrational beliefs which cannot be substantiated. Now how do we test this hypothesis? Simple we show a nationals irrefutable evidence that the economic case for independence is not remotely convincing and they will continue to argue that we would be better off out of the UK. Any rational person would at least concede that there were problems with this argument. Anyhow time will tell.
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As I seem to recall the current crisis began in the United States with banks (encouraged by politicians with an almost religous faith in the Market) lending too much money to high-risk borrowers .I have never regarded the USA as "small or weak " .Does that mean that large ,powerful nations should not be independant either ?
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#39 angusscot - you make the case for independence succinctly. The First Minister of an independent Scotland could have taken the actions that the UK PM took (of course, there are some who claim that if Gordie really had HBOS' best interests in mind, he would have taken action earlier and it wouldn't have been along the lines of selling it off cheap to a rival - but don't mention that or reluctant pat will start posting about JFK and the Zebruger film again).
Indeed, now that Gordie has been forced to take real measures to desperately save the UK banking system, it's interesting to see how differently he is dealing with them (i.e. he isn't brokering deals to sell them off on the cheap to rival banks). There is still some talk that the Lloyds TSB / HBOS deal won't go ahead (is there still a need for it now that all the banks are more or less in the same boat?).
You criticise Salmond for his lack of action, being all talk, etc. What exactly, with the devolved powers available to him, do you expect him to do? Seriously? While Westminster hold the purse strings and say what monies can and can't be spent, there's not a lot he can do, now is there?
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#43 Reluctant pat - impressive list but answer these:
1. Are all exports from England alone?
2. Are all donations to international development from England alone?
3. Is all trading with the outside world from England alone?
4. Is all investment in world companies from England alone?
5. Are all corporations in the Top 2000 list based in England alone?
6. Is all inward investment to England alone?
7. Is all scientific research carried out in England alone?
8. Are those 6 universities in England alone?
Now, if the answer to even one of those is "no", your whole argument collapses like a house of cards.
So perhaps your list wasn't that impressive after al.
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The Uk gov appeared to ignore the warnings back in July.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7663596.stm
I wonder what other Institutions they had been warned about.
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#52 darwinsmonkey - you actually have irrefutable evidence re the economies for independence? Let's see it.
Oh, by the way, there's nothing irrational about wanting a more democratic society with decision making taken in your own country. I'd rather have that quasi-religion than listen to the gospel according to Gordie and the unionists who claim I'm too stupid, to wee and too poor to run my own affairs.
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No 38
What a confession to make!!
You actually read newspapers to keep
up to date!!
I have not stopped laughing!!
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52. [doffs hat]
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"So where are we on political fall-out from the financial crisis?"
Do not get ahead of yourself. You have not had much of the economic fall-out yet. As a detached observer, I would have to surmise, I think, that the political fall-out that will matter much will be that which follows the full impact of the economic fall-out. As this could turn out to be very considerable indeed, not that I am presuming to predict for you that it necessarily will be, it would appear to be the case that the capacity of the United Kingdom to protect its component parts from the full impact of the worst-case scenario remains to be tested, bearing in mind that, following the substantial decline of some elements of the UK economy in recent years, notably the manufacturing sector, the financial-services one has come to assume particularly great importance here. It has been pointed out recently, by the BBC, I think, that the financial-services sector now constitutes about 20 per cent of the economy of the United Kingdom.
If that figure is correct, it would appear that the UK is in a particularly vulnerable position, not least in view of the, at least, theoretical possibility that greatly increased regulation of financial services and of the stock market in the UK, together with greater state involvement in the economy for some time, even the commanding heights of it, and the distinct prospect of higher taxation at some point down the line, particularly for the most wealthy, and poorer remuneration, bonus and profit prospects for those working in the City, together with a contracted economy and concomitant increase in already problematic levels of social, crime, immigration and national-security problems, the UK state may conceivably soon come to seem to be in such a state that the attractions for individuals of high net worth and constituent countries deciding whether to remain in it may conceivably pall.
Although such impacts of the financial crisis have not yet fully materialized but can already be envisaged, there is, nonetheless, some point in considering what short-term political fall-out there may be from the shocks and alarums that the electorate has experienced so far. This may provide a guide to the more significant long-term political fall-out that may be to come. That being so and as a parliamentary election is in the offing, namely the Westminster by-election at Glenrothes, I suggest that you would all be better employed in turning some of your attention to that rather than hurling infantile insults across the table and demonstrating how low the standard of political debate has fallen in the United Kingdom. Thus far the impression that I am gaining is that those who wish to retain the UK constitutional framework are welcoming the potential prospect of damage to and contraction of the Scottish economy. Others may be gaining the same impression. Is such an attitude likely to commend itself to the electorate of Glenrothes or anywhere else in Scotland, to whom what unionists seem to be welcoming with some glee is the prospect of job loss, home loss and lower income and living standards for a substantial proportion of the electorate? I suspect that the answer to that question must be no, which will be good news for the Scottish National Party.
First of all, though, let us consider the Labour Party in the context of the Glenrothes by-election. Events have overtaken me before I have had time to explore much of west Fife and Glenrothes. That will have to wait until another time, as the campaign has got under way, and I have some catching up to do. Suffice it to acknowledge before entering the fray that, as most people will be aware, west Fife and Glenrothes have been traditionally more industrial and Labour-supporting than the east of the county. Labour's dominance in this area has clearly diminished of late. It remains to be seen whether it will now diminish further with the loss of the Westminster constituency of Glenrothes to the SNP.
Approaching the battlefield now. Yes, I am afraid that the language of violent conflict is thoroughly infecting this by-election, as it did the last one. I understand, however, that no blows are actually physically struck in election campaigns these days, provided that a certain senior Labour Party character or caricature (take your pick), last seen gesturing provocatively at a group of Glasgow East SNP activists at a railway station, is kept away at a safe distance.
The "battle for Glenrothes" has begun, according to a worthy regional publication that circulates in Fife and elsewhere in the east of Scotland. Have you not had the pleasure of reading The Courier, which used to be The Dundee Courier and Advertiser before it ceased advertising the fact that it does advertising? Be that as it may, it is, fortunately for you, on line. Worth consulting during the by-election.
No sooner had my understandable mystification on the subject of the gowf at St Andrews been dispelled than another one descended upon me to replace it. I had been given to understand that the Glenrothes by-election is for the UK-legislature constituency of that name. It seemed to me, therefore (note the 'therefore', which is intended to suggest that a process of reasoning is going on here), to be logical (note the use of the word 'logical', which requires you to agree with me or be shamed for failing to do so) to conclude (yet more evidence of reasoning) that the candidates would all be concerning themselves with issues which are reserved to that legislature and are, therefore (that word again), not dealt with, other than for purely debating-society exercises, by the Scottish legislature, the Glenrothes constituency of which is already represented by the Scottish National Party.
Did I say 'logical'? Yes, twice. How naive of me to refer to logic in discussing an aspect of the UK constitution. Not that there is not logic in it, of a kind. It will be argued by some, no doubt, that, as, under the peculiar devolution settlement that will soon be reformed, the UK legislature technically retains the right, which it is perfectly capable of interpreting as a duty if it should so suit it, to legislate on any and indeed all devolved matters with or without the consent of the Scottish Parliament, it follows that members of the UK legislature should concern themselves with matters that do not concern them and that, consequently, UK-legislature elections should be about devolved matters as well as reserved ones. There is also an argument against this, which says that such goings on will only confuse the bejeebers out of the electorate, which is apparently still struggling to learn how to cast a ballot. (No offence intended.) Needless to say, this is the argument to which I subscribe myself, not that it is any of my business.
One cannot help being somewhat confused or, at least, bemused and perhaps amused to find the Labour candidate setting out his stall, as you say, on Scottish Parliament territory. I refer to his "Action Plan for Fife". Upon my word, what office does he think he is standing for? Council Leader? Chief Constable? Dog catcher? Is the rector of the local high school intent upon roaming the corridors and public-assemby areas of Fife instructing the local populace to take their hands out of their pockets and march quickly to their next class before the period bell stops ringing? Actually, upon examining the content of this head-masterly-seeming action plan, one discovers that the office in question appears to be that of MSP rather than MP, as, in the account that I have seen of it to date, it concerns purely devolved matters such as law and order in one form or another:
"My track record as a Fife head teacher in tackling anti-social behaviour in schools shows that I mean business when I say I'll crack down on those who break the rules." (Lindsay Roy)
And sit up straight there you at the back! Swipe me, but I cannot help feeling that the Labour candidate has got his texts mixed up. That reads like something from a head teacher's foreword to the school magazine or report to the board of governors of a school or some such thing. Has it been lifted straight from such a source into his campaign literature (intentionally?)?
How, I wonder, would the Labour candidate "crack down" on anti-social behaviour in Fife as a member of the UK legislature, given that these matters and others that he cites specifically are properly the province of the Scottish Parliament? Does he intend that Westminster will legislate on these matters for Scotland, thus depriving the SNP government of its democratic right to do so? If so, has the MP for the neighbouring constituency been informed that devolution is to be suspended? Or is Mr Roy merely confused as to which powers are reserved and which devolved? I am not trying to be awkward. I don't need to try, as you know. Nor am I trying to make a point here. I simply ask a question in the spirit of enquiry which has driven me to come to Fife and explore even the arcane mysteries of the gowf.
As for political fall-out from the financial crisis, too early to tell, I fear, although what I hear seems to indicate that there is some failure to be convinced that the present UK government has no degree of culpability in the matter.
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Those claiming that the Euro is the answer to the economic future of Scotland would do well to keep their powder dry until this crisis is truly over. This is the first real test that EMU has faced, and the cracks are already starting to show as individual nations in Europe look to protect their own interests. The Euro may survive, but it is equally possible that it will be found wanting under sustained pressure and founder. What then for an independent Scottish future? Unless someone has a crystal ball, none of us know for sure how this will play out. Remember that a European monetary union has been tried before. It didn't work too well then. It is an orphan currency and may or may not fare better this time. Either way, I for one will not be pinning my hopes on it for now.
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Re my post 58, reference should be to post 36 not 38.
Apologies
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#43 Expat
Impressive list and you want to be part of it.
Personally I don't and I refer you to the post from cynical highlander in the previous blog which would suggest we are in deep doodoo
But I do admire that you have shown a little more tact in your answer instead of your usual rantings.
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54. Cut income tax?
In times like these, do you really need slightly cheaper prescriptions for some people, free bridge tolls for some people, free hospital parking for some drivers, free school meals for some children......
I know these are some of his truly 'magnificent seven' achievements but couldn't the funding spent on such bountiful generosity have been shared among all?
How about winding up that pointless taxpayer-funded National Conversation too? There's some more money for a tax rebate.
How about cutting back on his countless international business class junkets?
Fair play to him though, calling for Holyrood elections to be controlled by Holyrood (yikes!) and international football to be free-to-air is a start.
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51 I see the unionist cheerleader still hasnt got anything positive to recommend the union and is still resorting to what he thinks are comic put downs when he hasnt got an answer to a valid point someone makes.
now shhh expat the grown ups are talking.
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One thing that GB should remeber before taking on the Icelanders.
They gave the UK a right pasting during the Cod War when the British government tried to bully the small and weak.
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There'll always be an England - oops I meant Britain....... mmmm, mmmm, mmmmm, mmmmm, mmmmm .......
Nope, nothing about Scotland there, in the standard type Unionist song.
Tell you who has more power at the UN than England - nextpunt - Rotary International, the only NGO with Ambassadorial representation at the UN.
Managed to get the Taliban to stop fighting for a couple of weeks so that kids on the Pakistan / Afghanistan border could get polio immunisation working with the Red Crescent. Did the same in Darfur, has a major aid project going on in Somaliland, rehoused more people after the Indian Ocean Tsunami than any other Government or NGO.
Rotary International managed to get the first international aid into Myanmar for the victims of the recent cyclone, providing tents, warmth, cooking equipment, tools, etc for over 50,000 homeless, as well as folk on the ground in Myanmar from the UK to supervise the delivery to the most needy in spite of all the hassles the rest of the NGO community - including Unesco - had getting visas simply to get off the plane.
So if I want Scotland to have the sort of positive influence in the world by second party representation at the UN I would wish, I think we should secede from the Union and join Rotary International.
Malawi Joke - forget it!
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I think what Brian and other Unionist posters choose to ignore is the an INDEPENDENT
Scotland would not have an economy so dependent on service industries but rather more mixed.
Some of you may remember " Selective Employment Tax" and Harald Wilson stating that" As a nation we cannot survive by bringing in each others' washing"
That is what the financial services industry boils down to and the last few months have proved Mr Wilson right.
The only surprising thing is that they managed to keep the scams going so long.
As for our "darling' chancellors' rescue package it is only good money thrown after bad.
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14. At 2:29pm on 10 Oct 2008, A_Scottish_Voice wrote:
If anything this whole situation actually strengthens the case for Independence, given that Scotland could act quicker and be more responsive to given events. Along with the fact that we would be in a much stronger postion financially.
--------------------------------
How? Where was the planned regulation from the SNP? I cannot recall reading or hearing anything about tightening regulation up.
Please stop this " if Scotland were independent this would never happen" argument, because Scotland at this time is NOT independent and therefore cannot control events. Nor are we likely in the future to have the available funding given the current crisis and changes to borrowing that will occur.
As for Gordon Brown.....throw 500 billion and what happens - nothing. On the other hand, did Alex Salmond not say he would have committed 100 billion? And what would that have achieved?
"Rich in natural resources"? Oil prices have plummetted. Norway has very wisely invested it's oil revenues, something successive UK Governments have failed to do.
UK politics are now a mess, wherever your loyalties lie. Things need to be allowed to settle and recover before taking any risks with a move into independence.
I'm still undecided on whether independence is good or not, but at the moment better sticking with the UK until the economics stabilise.
And moving onto the councils who decided - apparently on the recommendation of the UK Government - to invest their money in Icelandic banks - can we expect the immediate resignation of all the affected Chief Executives forthwith, along with the Chief Executive of Westminster (ie PM).
And on the same point - if the warnings were given in July, why did the Scottish Government not do something about it, even if Westminster decided to ignore the warnings?
And please, sensible answers, I'm not a rabid pro-unionist.
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Ireland and Iceland have shown the advantages of being Independent. Ireland has acted to help the country recover which appears to be going fine, there currently in a recession but are surviving. Iceland are also acting (something Scotland can't do) and will recover. They will ride out the hard times, something I saw a Unionist type. They will recover and will again continue to use the benefits of their own Independence to further their personal objectives. Iceland still has control of her fishing grounds, Ireland still has low corperate tax, the benefits of their Independence appears to continue when Scotland can not decide things like that herself.
However why stop at these two examples? How about the other small European countries such as Norway, Luxembourg, Switzerland, Netherlands ,Austria, Denmark, Sweden, Finland , Belgium? I see that these countries are managing fine and they are roughly the same boat as Scotland.
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"Salmond's rivals at Holyrood can scarcely conceal their schadenfreudic glee at his potential discomfiture"
Yes Brian, and quite a few Unionist journos and commentators too eh?
There was a time, up until a few years ago when such economic turmoil might have had the Scots running to 'Nurse' but no more.
It's not something we have to ponder about, argue about, shout about, the proof is in the eating, in this case at the Glenrothes banquet.
We'll see then just how terrified the Scottish voters have become....or not become.
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Reluctant-Expat,
"* The strongest military power in the EU, the second largest in NATO and one of the few European countries (and the world) that can actually defend itself without outside help (an ability greatly enhanced by those nasty nukes the SNP hates so much)."
I am sure that Germany, France and Turkey (NATO members) all have larger militaries then Britain, could you please show where you are getting your information from?
The best part of the British Military is our mobility, I will remind you that France are developing their military to match ours and they will overtake Britain as the strongest military power in the European Union eventually.
It's quite debatable who is the strongest country in the European Union. The British Army is undermanned as we are, could we really handle a third war? The other countries (France and Germany) are better positioned to handle a conflict that may drift into Europe. Britain would have to scramble her forces and withdraw them back from their bases around the world to handle anything, something other EU countries don't have to worry about as much.
Could you also give examples how Scotland benefited by being apart of the Union which are apart of these groups (stated below)?
* One of the major power-brokers of the UN, and a permanent member of the Security Council.
* A member of the G8 group that sets global economic policy.
* One of the Big Four in the EU that sets the route taken by the Union Project.
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I've been away all day, and I come back to find you all bickering away as if you were Lab/Con protagonists on NR's blog!
Shame on you!
Best comments I've seen are those who suggest that it's too soon to tell what the economic and political fallout will be.
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People
Not too surprisingly under the difficult circumstances, there is anger on both sides here.
I suggest we conduct a respectful debate, that does not denigrate any one view, and we listen and react to posts rather than sounding off.
To those that think they have a greater grasp of the situation, I would suggest humility, and the adoption of a consensual attitude. This can only grow a wider pool of knowledge and understanding.
If anyone fails to do this I strongly suggest that everyone ignores him or her.
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#44 Anglophone
"Once again you've really got me...I just don't understand your post."
Well, at least that's consistent as you obviously do not understand your own.
In #18 you're a one-nation Tory but by #24 you're extolloing the virtues of Bliar's 2001 NuLab government and you think my #35 suggeting they're much the same is unclear!
Then by your #29, you're jumping to huge unwarranted assumptions and impugning my honour and that of the Swiss Confederation in the process.
I've tried rational discussion with you but until your posts start to make more sense I'll treat them as those of the troll you seem to be.
Anglophone
"The reason that the UK avoided recession in 2003 whilst the Continental economies wallowed in recession and high unemployment for three years. It is precisely because our economy is relatively nimble that it managed to avoid serious trouble at the time."
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#31 -- You might have missed this in the news
Japan -- bankrupt Tokyo Sowa Bank was sold to a Texas firm this week
Canada -- Gov buys $25b in mortgages from banks to help them reduce borrowing costs
France -- Dexia bailed out by the French Gov (along with the Netherlands and Belgium)
Spain -- Government provides €30-50b in aid to banks to stop them folding
Denmark -- Took over Roskilde Bank in July/August this year
Sweden & Norway -- Had their own banking collapse a few years ago .. just google Swedish Banking Collapse
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Please, enough of the talk of an independent Scotland having a 'nimble' economy, enabling it to escape an economic downturn. Try to think what a nimble economy actually entails. It's a cute way of saying a highly mobile and easily sackable workforce, light regulation, financial wizardry, cheap infrastructure and low taxes.
The countries which adopted this approach are failing fast. One wonders how many will emerge in decent shape from the carnage.
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#49 Anglophone
Yep - the country that brought you the Red Cross has is skeletons, but at least they weren't the slave traders, have never to the best of my knowledge annexed other countries and even comply with the EEA/EU banking directives nowadays.
I'll certainly avoid surf-centres if I ever settle in England. How unlike the attitudes of most English people I know and continue to regard as friends.
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Just a little thought for those who might think the UK is big enough to deal with the economic problem, here's a post from Robert Peston's blog. Some are arguing that the UK is too "wee and poor"
287. At 3:10pm on 10 Oct 2008, crunchedup wrote:
the day of reckoning should be for the london stock exchange - they blatantly do not have a scooby.
sit wetting themselves to see what the dow does - american bank stocks go up and whey hey so do uk
why bother my kid at 3 could hit the necessary buttons
in fact we could all just toss a coin and heads we hit a green button and tails a red - don't think it would make any difference to the added value these muppets bring
For global situations, global regulation is appropriate. Let's focus on levels of government appropriate for the policy area involved.
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#61 MalcolmW2
"Remember that a European monetary union has been tried before."
I for one don't and can't find a reference. Can you provide some dates and details?
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#73 oldnat
"Best comments I've seen are those who suggest that it's too soon to tell what the economic and political fallout will be."
I agree with you and have tried to restrain myself on those grounds, but there is also the question of competence. Just glance at this website's UK 'ignored Iceland bank warning' and consider the action "Duff" Gordon has actually taken. That kind of listening vs posturing should play quite well in Glenrothes.
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79. At 8:00pm on 10 Oct 2008, oldnat
"For global situations, global regulation is appropriate. Let's focus on levels of government appropriate for the policy area involved."
Is that not what has brought the UK and others almost onto their knees globalisation, one size fits all. The markets have further to fall yet because a countries value has been built on false growth rather than real growth, which can only be its natural resources not promises on a piece of paper liable to blow away in the wind. Just as an example Cold weather payments only comes into play when the temperature falls below a certain level a few hundred miles away, not much use up here. Yes we all can play our part but choices need to be made on a local level first rather than follow the lemmings (no they don't jump of the cliff the Disney way).
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Governments of all political persuasions create an environment, let it run its full course and when things disintigrate, come up with the plan that they wanted to happen all along. Most of the time, those at the bottom of the food chain dont know what's going on - and they are the ones that suffer.
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Brian,
The current crisis may well make those of us who now vote SNP for reasons other than the deep desire to be independent decide not to vote for this when the vote is called but it won't stop us voting SNP at elections.
The Labour Party no longer represents its former core support and I see no sign that it ever will.
Even if its MPS and MSPs were to suffer a momentous enlightenment, (such as facing electoral disaster), that would lead it to changing some of its policies, I see no reason to vote for a Party that has lost its soul.
It now makes little difference to those of us who have worked all our life whether Labour or Conservative are in power at Westminster as long as we keep their second raters out of power in Scotland.
In the event that any Westminster Government decides to punish us for having the temerity to keep them out of power in Scotland we can always revisit the 'independence vote at another time.
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#82 cynicalhighlander
"Is that not what has brought the UK and others almost onto their knees globalisation, one size fits all."
I don't think so, (because I'm a historian and a teacher) a short (and very simplified history lesson follows!
In 1944 the Bretton Woods Conference established the basis of international banking regulatory rules, the IMF and the World Bank in order to move money around to restart the Western capitalist economies via projects like the Marshall Plan. This worked well in the days before containerised shipping of goods and the Internet.
Since then there have been various attempts by governments to create regulatory regimes (the latest being Basel II in 2004) to respond to the technological changes within the finance industry.
Basel II required banks to increase their capitalisation to match the riskiness of their lending. Europe and the US finally implemented Basel II within their regulatory arrangements in 2008. Anyone notice some co-incidence?
Instant money transfer around the world means that no single country/confederation can control their finance industry on their own (it'll simply move elsewhere to where there is less regulation), it needs to be controlled by common rules that are implemented much faster.
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#70
"Ireland has acted to help the country recover which appears to be going fine, there currently in a recession but are surviving."
Perhaps if you lived in Ireland you would realise that the low taxes also provide a pretty dreadful health service (pay to see GP, attend A&E, national Breast cancer service cancelled), education service (pupils to provide books, writing paper, no school dinners supplied), roads (expansion of toll roads, crumbling roads, untarmac'd roads), care for the eldery (you pay 20% upfront, then when you die the Gov takes your house to pay for the other 80%).
If people (Alec and the rest of his SNP buddies) actually looked at what you get in Ireland they would be less inclined to use it as a perfect example of an independent Scotland.
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#85 ...your last statement ..what you mean like people stashing all their money in Belize or the Cayman Islands or living in Monaco .... dodgy people !
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#87 rabbiehippo
Nope - the guys who fund your credit card, mortgage or any other financial mechanism you use - those other dodgy people!
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#86 What youve just listed about Ireland is exactly the same here in Britain !!! In case you arent aware if you are put in a care home then your house is sold by the council to pay for your care.... unless like my father has done and pay 400 quid at the time he built his house (himself i must add ) so that it is excempt from that rule. And remember we pay a lot of taxes.
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#86.
Hello there,
It appears you have the wrong end of the stick. Scottish Nationalists use Ireland, Norway, Iceland (plus others) as examples because these countries have a different benefits. These countries survive and work well. It is something Scotland can work towards once we are Independent, it does not necessary mean that we will become another Ireland etc with low taxes.
Besides I am confident that the Scottish Government will ensure that certain priorities such as Health and Education are properly funded. I personally would support paying less taxes for a lower standard of Health Services.
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#89
In Scotland you get free personal care for the elderly.
Also in Scotland/UK you don't have to pay £40 to see a Doctor/GP, or £60 when rushed to A&E.
Your kids will get writing paper at school and books.
Yes you pay taxes but then you also get these services .... low taxes just mean less services, not better.
Heaven help anybody getting cancer in Ireland .. the Government is withdrawing cancer services from most of the nations hospitals.
Ireland may have been an economic miracle over the last 20 years, however when it came to the Government helping it's own citizens then forget it ... they where too busy giving tax cuts to care about services.
Having lived in both countries, Britain is a much better place to live than Ireland. Least I don't worry about getting ill in Scotland.
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#88 What sticks in my throat is when partys have their conferences or whatever and various large companies sponsor a dinner or speaker. Shurely you cant be impartial to lobbiests if your getting cash from them. It was pointed out in Private Eye that the FSA are not exactly cracking down on the people who were short selling the banks .... unless taking them to dinner is a new form of punishment.
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Citizens MUST continue to hold their elected representatives to account. They control our taxes and spend them accordingly. Amazing that governments tell us there is not enough for health, education and all the other necessities of life - but look at the financial resources that have been unleashed in the last couple of weeks. (to no positive effect yet it appears)
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Thomas ... i on the other hand dont mind paying the taxes i do if ....... the money is not squandered on consultants and other such people who are seconded to the government. On the other hand i object to paying the same council tax as town people.... i have no pavements, no streetlights, no speedlimit outside my front garden and i have to pay for my kids bus even tho they cannot walk to school as its a main road with no pavement. Generally i'm paying the binman about 20 a time to empty my bin and thats all i get. I could do that myself since i have to recycle most things now at my own expense. Dont get me wrong i'm all for recycling and everybody is going to have to get used to the changes that have to be made in the world.... do away with plastic bottles and bring back reusing glass bottles like bon accord used to do in the aberdeen area and i believe Barrs do to. Christ im off on a rant.... :o)}
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#90
You would support a lower standard of health services ....
Doesn't the SNP support the NHS and it's principal of 'free at the point of use'. Didn't Nicola Sturgeon say back in June the following:
"Most of us have only ever known a Scotland that has an NHS. A high quality publicly owned service which is free to everyone at the point of delivery.
But some Scots will remember the days when seeing a doctor was a hard choice, often between essential treatment and food for the family. That kind of choice is scarcely imaginable to us today which is why we must never take our health service for granted."
or is this just until Scotland becomes independent then 'screw' all the ill people/kids at school because I'm selfish and want a tax cut.
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91 Well i cant argue with that then .... a bit like the USA i suppose.
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rjakes .... id prefer to pay what i do just now but that i could get a dentist. Before long ill only be capable of eating soup.
Unfortunately Labour and probably the Tories are hell bent on privatising the NHS as much as they can get away with.
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Well Brian another statement of support for Brown. I remember the earlier days of the BBC when journalists were very carefull, not to lose their objectivity. I wonder whatever happened to those giants of truth. Did they just die off or did they just get old and forget their commitment to honesty and truth. I wonder how many of the second kind the BBC has now.
Let there be no doubt about the extent of Gordon Brown’s culpability for the crisis. As Chancellor, he raised huge sums and borrowed yet more in order to build a client state of tame Labour voters on the public payroll – whether as employees or claimants. He pushed Britain to live way beyond its means not merely in this way, but by putting excessive amounts of money into circulation that banks could lend on with cavalier irresponsibility. He then failed properly to regulate those banks.
The debt mountain he created has yet to wreak its full horror on society. He spent so wildly that when things went wrong – not that he ever managed to predict that they would – we were desperately short of funds to make repairs. As a result, taxes will have to go up, and public services may have to endure damaging cuts. Finally, when the time came to clear up the mess, he dithered and brooded while the stock market went into free fall and banks went to the wall.
Now he is using Iceland as his Thatchers Own Falklands Invasion, to redirect attention from his stuffups over the last 11 years. Brown has definately got mental health problems, the pity is that the Tories are the only party that has the numbers to put enough pressure on him to go. Cameron is no where ready to take up the reins of England, unless he hires advisors with impecable qualifications for the job of fixing up Brown, Blairs and Darlings broken economy.
I really dont care how he goes, I just know that it has to happen very soon. New Labour are a Cancer on The Three Nations, and shouldnt have a future in Scotland. After Independence a Scottish Labour Party will need to be formed, but it has to be free of the scabs who have used their positions to feather their own nest/mess. Tommy Sheridan and other minority socialist parties should be working with the SNP in a spirit of unity in freeing our nation from foreign occupation by London.
Yes Brown has printed more money, without the customary gold to back it up. The Pound is in freefall against the US Dollar, yet no Unionist on here seems very concerned. Is it possible that they are merely trolls who are in it for whatever their dubious reasons are. And what is that you say, what about the credit card debt?. Lets not worry about that till it comes up Very Soon. Bankruptcy you say?. OK
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#98 scottishrepublic
Couldn't agree more with your post, and as my #81 points out, he knew about the situation in July yet did nothing. Although there's Glenrothes campaign mileage there, I still agree with oldnat's #73 that the banking crisis itself is an area to tread warily until we know more.
In fact, I fear this whole thread is a distraction from other issues that will play well in the by-election. I didn't manage to read much of the print media yesterday, but on starting to do so this morning was surprised that the Herald's Westminster rejects call for Holyrood to run elections got not so much as a mention on this thread nor anywhere else I can spot on the BBC website.
That should play well on the "wee pretendy paliament" theme, and certainly doesn't strike me as an astute first move by Murphy. Perhaps the best of the 128 comments on the article was Curley Bill's "Outstanding ... Still, the Herald calling them 'rejects' seems a bit harsh - even NuLabourites have feelings, you know."
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PS to my #99
Re Iceland, the Grauniad's Michael White has some sensible thoughts in his Hands off Sporticus - and why the financial sewer must keep flowing. For a NuLab apologist, it's pretty strong stuff including: "So Whitehall's move - and Gordon Brown's bellicose tone - smack of unnecessary British unilateralism at a time when international cooperation is vital. It also smacks of bullying a small neighbour, its 300,000 population about that of Cardiff."
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A huge amount of truth in the last post.
It sticks in my craw to see Brown strutting about as if he has no culpability in our present mess when in fact during Labour's term of office we have seen the national debt of the UK more than tripled, the personal debt of our citizens equalling more than the total debt of Africa and South America combined and our productive economy dropping to nearly 20th in the world table from the 4th position it was in a decade ago.
Brown offered us an illusion of "prudence" ", "stability" and economic growth which was the product of ever growing debt and consumption and the careless invention of mountains of money that didn't actually exist.
My big worry now is that Brown's use of the Tories PFI (renamed PPP) has us all in the deep do as much of this is funded by extortionate bank finance.
The USA and the UK are more cuplpable than most in this economic crisis and no doubt this will be remembered after a few weeks - but too late to hammer Labour at Glenrothes. When we come out of this China, India and Russia will hold the whip hand in the world economy.
And the small countries, whatever their present travails, with their greater flexibility will come out of all this quicker and better than the big ones.
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As a public service to those unwilling to click on links and to demonstrate that these are not "nat rants", I give below two short quotes from the articles referred to in my two previous posts.
Re Holyrood From the Herald: Conservative MSP David McLetchie said: "I'm sorry to say that the main drag on progress arises from the unwillingness (of Westminster) to accept the conclusion that responsibility for electoral administration in Scotland should be transferred to a single jurisdictional entity of which Gould commented that the Scottish Parliament and government is the most appropriate."
Re Iceland From the Grauniad: "Yet a letter in today's Guardian from Willem Buiter and Anne Sibert, two LSE professors (Buiter once sat on the Bank of England's monetary policy committee) Iceland's banks credit rating has been in serious doubt for at least six months, hence the high interest rates."
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Comments 98, 99, 100 and 101 I agree completely.
One thing that has passed a lot of people by, is the wooing of Iceland by Russia.
Why? The massive oil and natural gas fields yet to be explored in the Arctic region. I am afraid that strategic thinking is way beyond the thought processes of our Glorious Leader. His one contribution to oil exploration was at the turn of the century limiting tax relief to oil companies costs on the specific oil fields that yielded oil. Exploration that did not yield oil got no tax relief - offshore exploration is hazardous and very expensive, and the oil companies are running a business; something that Brown has no experience of. The oil majors promptly stopped all oil exploration in the North Sea and North Atlantic, packed up their gear and left these shores. Indeed many of the existing oil rigs have been leased to smaller companies to operate, who would not have the capital to start exploration if they wanted to.
So, the Scottish economy loses out as new rigs do not need to be built. There is the strong possibility that not all oil and gas will be extracted from offshore Britain. Russia will end up having a larger control of natural resources - remember that most of our inefficient nuclear power stations rely on gas to cool the reactors. I also woul not be too surprised to see Russian rigs far south of Iceland extracting oil and gas that rightfully should have been the continuation of the North Sea oil boom.
Quite frankly, the whole situation at the moment leaves me disgusted. The tories recently came up with the phrase: Scorched earth policy. I think what is happening now goes way beyond this. I am seriously thinking of joining the estimated 24 percent of the UK population that are emigrating.
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#103 excellentcatblogger
You're right - I'm ashamed to say I didn't put 2 and 2 together on that issue, but it's the best explanation of why Russia should bale out Iceland that I've read and coupled with Russia's recent Arctic activities strikes me as probably true, if not yet actually proven.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#91.
Mate, I take it you must be Irish. Well the people of Ireland appear to be satisfied with their system. If not, I am sure they are able to vote in another party who can improve services.
"...or is this just until Scotland becomes independent then 'screw' all the ill people/kids at school because I'm selfish and want a tax cut."
Are you simply another person here to stirr trouble with the Nationalists?
The reason I do not support the NHS is because I have private health insurance anyway, why would I want to pay more for something I will never use (or for what I pay for already for the insurance)? As I said before I am confident that the Scottish Government will ensure priorities such as Health and Education are properly funded. As far as I am aware the SNP will always ensure that.
I see because I seek tax cuts I am now called selfish? As more families are pushed into fuel poverty and are going hungry because of the rise of the cost of food, you call me selfish? Perhaps because I understand during difficult times families must be allowed to pay as little as possible towards the system I would welcome tax cuts with open arms.
It should be simple, less money to spend then less services to use but Labour do not work like that. They borrow, borrow, borrown and the poor will be paying the bills for years to come.
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Some interesting, if Machievellian, thoughts from Matthew Parris in the Thunderer today with his "Gordon Brown's big tent would hide a narrow interest" suggesting that "Duff" Gordon may be planning to emulate Ramsay McDonald in trying to form a National Government to prolong his tenure of No.10. Enjoyable reading and some bleak thoughts - particularly his "But do not overlook another truth about this man: Mr Brown is a bully who knows how to back down. The pride of bullies is a malleable thing."
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#22 Reluctant Expat
Don't patronise me. You're implying I'm not being realistic. I've been in the oil/gas industry for over 30 years and watched as Norway has grown a huge and powerful supply side well beyond anything we have here. I've also watched as they've systematically snatched up a large number of our best high tech energy companies because our wonderful banks and other financial institutions won't invest in them.
Just recently the Spanish owned Scottish Power announced it was to do a deal with the Norwegian company Hammerfest to build tidal turbines here... So they've beaten us to that market as well because once again unlike the Norwegians our financial services sector doesn't care a hoot about our industry.
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Back on what should be the topic, today's Indy has a warning which may partly explain "Duff" Gordon's failure to act sooner and his evident glee at a World crisis where he can "strut his stuff" in their: Embattled Prime Minister scents unlikely victory on his home turf.
If nothing else, it confirms that nobody should yet be counting their chickens, and their contention that the odds on a Labour victory have been cut is borne out by a quick web search. Political Betting are now quoting the best available odds as: SNP 4/11 (Sporting Bet) and Labour 9/4 (Ladbrokes).
It certainly means that many of the points above need to be "sold" to the Glenrothes electorate.
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Oops! I seem to have garbled the Matthew Parris link in my #107.
See Gordon Brown's big tent would hide a narrow interest.
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In Washington for the G7 summit, the Finance Minister declared today that the banks of Europe are somewhat under-capitalized and, therefore, in need of some injection of state funding . . . except for our banks, which, not suffering from under-capitalization and being, in fact, among the most highly capitalized in the eurozone, are not currently in need of state funding and do not wish it. Such funding, however, would be available, Ms Lagarde added, if it came to be required.
Do not you wish that, instead of being in the English boat, you were in the French one referred to above? As the English one is sinking, why would you want to stay in it when all you have to do is leave and get into a boat of your own, taking care to tie it up alongside the sounder French one in the European Union and, indeed, in the eurozone, in accordance with the far-sighted and prudent policy of the Scottish National Party.
The demise of the Reaganomic Anglo-American form of cowboy capitalism, which is not lamented on this side of the Channel, is an ideal opportunity for you to put your house in order and restore Scottish banking to the condition which it was in before it became contaminated through immersion in the toxic-debt economy of your southern neighbours and your American cousins.
Political fall-out? When the fat hits the fan, there will be fall-out all right. Don't sit there twiddling your thumbs as those offensively irrational and increasingly hysterical anglo-unionists take you down with them on the pretext of saving your bacon. You have the means to save yourselves and secure your future, as you know. If you do not take advantage of this, you may find that no one actually cares very much about your bacon except yourselves. But what can you do to help yourselves with the pathetic levers of economic and political control that Scotland has in England, as we call it, the United Kingdom, as you call it?
The other day the electronic display in Times Square that records the mounting US national debt went as bust as the US economy. One trillion too many. The mind-boggling figure for the US national debt now exceeds the capacity of the machine to display it. The Anglo-American empire is indeed in deep doo-doo, and we are now entering an era of economic and political upheaval. This is your opportunity. Make the most of it.
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Somehow I managed to miss the Daily Politics' interview with Psychologist Lucy Beresford but just noticed it. Anyone who thinks, with me, that "Duff" Gordon is not always entirely rational may particularly enjoy her analysis of the Mandy resurrection as "Freudian" bordering on "self-mutilating behaviour".
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#85.oldnat
Thanks for the explanation but no matter what changes if/are made it will favour the big bully boys and will not weed out the greed element that has been sown so widely across continents. Maybe its antiquated Westminster that needs reforming into something that befits the 21st century.
#98.scottishrepublic
In a nutshell.
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#111 Europrogressive
Welcome - a good first post. I certainly do wish that the UK had joined the Euro from the outset, and think it likely that recovery from the current crisis within it. If the London unionists remain stubbornly committed to sterling, then it may well make sense for Scotland to go directly into the EU and the Euro without further procrastination.
Most would wish it were somewhat more democratic, although most who do also wish the UK government were somewhat more democratic.
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Influence in Iceland provides vast strategic advantage in the North Atlantic.
Is that why Duff has just stuffed Iceland's banking industry by using anti-terrorist legislation against them.
The mind boggles - and the Russians move in to our North.
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113 cynicalHighlander
"Maybe its antiquated Westminster that needs reforming into something that befits the 21st century."
You're certainly right there, but the problem seems to be the non-interest of the English electorate in constitutional issues, which allows unionist parties to rule the UK more or less by default.
They may be scizophrenic whether to wave the union flag or St. George's cross, but very few of them actually see themselves in the role that Ireland sees Cromwell.
Sadly, it's beginning to look as though they will not wake up to it until the referendum outcome makes it too late.
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#111 Europrogressive
Having lived/worked in France for about 5 years I am acutely aware of the advantages of the European social market model over the Anglo Saxon model.
However - the proof is really in the pudding..
The French still have Alcatel without which UK homes wouldn't get broadband because they build the bits of ADSL kit that go in UK telephone exchanges... France also has Airbus of course which is a major very high tech company.. It's also got most of the European Space Agency work... Renault is also French as are Citroen, Peugeot etc.. I could go on but you get picture...
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An interesting interview, enjoy. At least it is better than 0-0.
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x684wa_the-last-laugh-george-parr-subprime_fun
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Now that I no longer have to persuade Mrs Nat, that a trip to South Africa should feature in our retirement travel plans, I can return to more important issues.
#113 cynicalHighlander
The big bully boys always win. That's why I think it matters to join with lots of other European countries (who have a lot of common interests) but share a collectivist philosophy to protect all their citizens, not just the rich. England may want to become the 51st US state of the US, but I'd rather not join them - neither would many of their northern citizens. I'd be happy for them to join us!
#111 Europrogressive
Good post. If you guys would just sort out Belgium, so that there is less uncertainty about the consequences of Scottish membership that would be great.
We should have been in the Euro a long time ago, instead of being a victim of Brown's infatuation with neo-liberalism, and the US Alliance.
I understand why the SNP suggested staying with sterling, but the recent finance crisis suggests they were wrong to do so. Brownedov is probably right in suggesting that we should "go directly into the EU and the Euro without further procrastination."
Someone on a previous thread couldn't understand my stress on Confederalism. I think they misunderstood that I wanted a European Confederation, but was prepared to accept a UK Confederation in the meantime, given the uncertainty over the politics of being accepted into the EU immediately. Remove that one area of uncertainty, and there's no need for a UK Confederacy as an interim solution.
On the constitution generally, I think Nationalists need to hammer home the point that the UK is too small for the "big things", and that the UK Unionists are trying to defend a "pretendy wee state with a pretendy wee parliament" in global affairs.
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BrigadierJohn. Sorry to drag you back to your post #103 on the previous thread.
Are you suggesting that two thirds of the electorate in a referendum would need to vote for independence before we get our freedom? That's crazy! The turnout in the 2007 Scottish election was 52%, the Scottish turnout in the GE was 60%. The 1997 devolution referendum turnout was 60%. So based on these turnouts it would not be possible to get the required 75% of the electorate to vote yes in an independence referendum. Maybe such a high hurdle suits you. Are you George Cunningham in disguise?
The Scottish Government white paper recognises that 50% of those voting is good enough.
Freedom
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#119 oldnat
Thoughtful as usual, and it would certainly be advantageous for someone else to be first to split within the EU to establish the precedents, so destroying a nagging doubt over EU acceptance of both parts of the UK.
Belgium is certainly looking the No.1 candidate for that pathfinder role, and even if larger EU states are unhappy about it, they'll want to be as conciliatory as they can over Belgium given the EU infrastructure based there. Having been so gung-ho over Kosovo, it's hard to see the UK or France trying too hard to stop it without looking utterly two-faced.
It would hardly be good advertising for the EU to be headquartered in a DMZ.
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#120 hadrianswall: You must be psychic! I just signed in as you were posting.
My point was not about actual numbers, and the two-thirds reference was an example of how councils, for example, handle a reversal of previous decisions. I was trying to say that any, repeat any, result in a referendum of this magnitude and importance absolutely MUST be clear-cut and beyond argument - or there is likely to be unrest. I put it no higher than that.
For example, we all know there will be a pre-match rammy about the questions asked and the manner of stating them. The "losing" side will claim that it was unfair, that's guaranteed. So, let's say the result is 51-49 percent for talks (it's only talks, remember) about Independence.
I can't do maths, so take my point broadly: if it's a 60 per cent turnout, it means just over 30 per cent of the electorate expressed a positive vote.
Surely the most blinkered among us can see that this is not the "explicit support of the people" as demanded in the National Conversation's own list of ifs, buts, and maybes? Obviously if the result is 80-20 it's pretty final.
I'm only suggesting that we find out now how to avoid endless hatred and aggravation for years if the result is close.
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With most of the Sunday papers not yet out and few news stories anywhere, I was reduced to looking at the Torygraph's website and find they have a story on Labour sleaze in tomorrow's edition which should play well in Glenrothes. They claim finally to have obtained documents to prove that Bliar and officials lied over the Ecclestone affair, although sadly they admit that "Brown is not mentioned in any of the documents released to The Sunday Telegraph".
See The Ecclestone Affair: Labour's first funding scandal.
Sad that they can't touch McAvity, but firm proof of NuLab lies and spin must be of interest.
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#123 Brownedov: You know I don't defend the Labour Party. But you pick a right-wing anti-Labour newspaper website, quote their "claim" to have obtained damning documents, and tell us that this is "firm proof of NuLab lies and spin." How can a claim be proof?
You wonder why people like me won't follow your links?
It's simple. I always believe you when you say the link exists, and I accept that it expresses a viewpoint with which you agree. No problem.
The problem is that for every view you choose to promote, a dedicated searcher of sites, papers, etc., can find another zany professor/journalist/scientist/"expert" to set out the opposite view with equal force and certainty.
Now, if you would give us two conflicting links and ask us to make up our own minds.....
Incidentally, did you really have to wait for the Telegraph to tell you there were mucky dealings with Ecclestone?
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Quiet tonight, eh? Don't see many posters promoting the wonders of Norway!
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#122 brigadierjohn
You really are an old fraud!
"I can't do maths" and on 5 Sep "I'm not too hot on financial intricacies" and yet you previously claimed to be a heavy-duty union negotiator before moving into management.
Strange that both a Union (NUJ?) and a Newspaper both appointed you to positions where maths and finance are fairly essential, if you are as poor in these areas as you claim.
Of course, it may be possible that you are as useless as you suggest, but can talk a good line in an interview to mislead people - in which case your credentials on this blog are somewhat reduced!
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#125 brigadierjohn
"the wonders of Norway!"
Hardly, their strikers were woeful!
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#125 brigadierjohn
It's tempting to say that Scotland proved it was Norway's equal - something unionists have a habit of denying - but as a confederalist I'll content myself with Wales' heady victory over mighty Liechtenstein.
As the latter and the UK use use the same Austrian folk-tune as the music for their National Anthem, you'd have found the speakers in Cardiff acceptably unionist.
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Another article in the Torygraph worth a look is their Scottish Catholic leader urges public to vote in Glenrothes by-election.
They seem to think that O'Brien's rant against the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Bill cannot be good for NuLab, especially if "Duff" Gordon contradicts himself and campaigns there, as many hacks have reported he has a mind to.
O'Brien certainly seems to have them rattled when the Torygraph says: The 70-year-old cardinal was criticised before last year's Holyrood elections when he predicted that Scottish independence would happen 'before too long' .... He also reminds Catholic voters in his letter to Glenrothes of the continued existence of the 'overtly sectarian' Act of Settlement that prevents any Roman Catholic taking the throne.
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#126 oldnat: My school refused to present me as a candidate for 0-level maths, in case my result damaged its standing. I was happy about this, as I feared the maths class like no other. As for the negotiating, I didn't do it on my own. Both sides employed qualified accountants. One of the reasons I took early retirement was that in these cost-cutting days, more and more paperwork, including hard sums, was pushed my way.
More interesting is this: why did you nitpick a small detail of my post rather than address the substantive point. Now THAT can reduce a man's credentials!
Even more interesting is: why would anyone be logging, or even remembering, my posts? Damned if I can remember them.
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When George Burley writes his memoirs, our hopes turning to dust at Hampden will be in a chapter headed "The Sands of Iwelumo."
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Oldnat: Thinking about my part in negotiations, I'm sure I said I took part in them. Certainly I didn't lead them. I was there to give "expert" journalistic opinion, rather than crunch numbers. I just could not do that. If my recollection is wrong, I'm sure you'll have the post filed!
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#124 brigadierjohn
"But you pick a right-wing anti-Labour newspaper website, quote their "claim" to have obtained damning documents, and tell us that this is "firm proof of NuLab lies and spin.""
You've either misread my post or you've started spinning yourself.
My #123 first says "They claim finally to have obtained documents to prove that Bliar and officials lied over the Ecclestone affair ..." and concludes with "... firm proof of NuLab lies and spin must be of interest."
Whilst hoping it is true, I in no way support their claim but conclude that, if it is true, firm proof would be of interest.
"Incidentally, did you really have to wait for the Telegraph to tell you there were mucky dealings with Ecclestone?"
Of course not, but NuLab have always denied it and nobody has yet produced proof. If the Torygraph really do have the proof they claim a few more will start to accept NuLab for what they really are and decline to vote for them.
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#129 Brownedov: As an atheist, I share the cardinal's anger about the Act of Settlement. It should be amended immediately to debar the succession to anyone who bears any allegiance to myth and superstition, supernatural nonsense, flying angels, saints, raising the dead or virgin birth. Men in frocks should have no part in deciding our laws.
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Having incurred the wrath of an imaginary deity, I'm off to sleep the sleep of the pure in heart.
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#124 brigadierjohn
PS to my #133
I don't know how you regard the Sunday Times, but they're also carrying a very similar story to the Torygraph with their Secret papers reveal Tony Blair’s F1 tobacco deal.
They say, amongst other things: "However, the briefing note suggests Blair should name October 29 as the date, to be consistent with his previous public claims that the decision was not taken until two to three weeks after the crucial meeting with Ecclestone. 'The draft reply is strictly true in terms of the final decision . . . but critics could argue that the answer was disingenuous in that the prime minister’s views had been clearly conveyed by the telephone call on October 16,' the document says."
If the documents are genuine, it's only a little lie, but documented lie it is - something previously only proven in NuLab manifestos - and cannot possibly presage anything good for NuLab.
No info yet from the Scottish Sundays nor the Indy & Observer.
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#133 Brownedov: Just caught you. That's a pretty wriggly explanation. I think your fury at being unable to pin sleaze on Brown clouded your usually good judgement. Telegraph spin is just the same as Nat spin or Lab spin. Live with it.
G'night.
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If you visit the Channel 4 website and follow directions to More 4 news , you will come accross a recent , illuminating piece about our Nordic friends and their oil fund investments.
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Brigadier
Loved your #131 - so true!
"My school refused to present me as a candidate for 0-level maths"
Actually it was O-Grade (O-levels were English exams), but your statement says nothing about your capability with mathematical concepts or logical thinking - simply that schools in the1960's were obsessed with pass rates rather than pupil attainment. Interestingly, a concept re-introduced by HMI in the 1980's under the Tories, continued by New Labour in the 90's, and is slowly being dismantled.
However, it may have been that you were promoted beyond your competence level (happens to many), so it's valid to question the value of your judgement on a number of issues.
"why would anyone be logging, or even remembering, my posts? Damned if I can remember them."
Historians use internal contradictions within the published writings of individuals to check on the reliability of their stated positions, so checking back is quite normal.
For example, your very first post, on 17 April, stated "The British nation doesn't need these petty regional squabbles. But where are the One Nation Tories?"
By the time I started blogging, you were presenting yourself as a fair, reasonable, "pragmatic Unionist" - prepared to be convinced as to the merits of alternative constitutional stances.
However, your original stance makes it quite clear that you are a British Nationalist.
I don't make that statement with any pejorative implications - especially not to suggest that you have any BNP leanings. I've always made it clear that having a primary political identity as "British" is no better or worse than having a primary "Scottish" political identity, but we both want the same piece of territory. Hence the nationalism of any one of the nations in the UK are not opposed to each other. All of them
The substantial difference in Scottish politics is between those two standpoints within the people living in Scotland.
Hence it is important to identify your stance appropriately to judge the intention of your suggestion of the appropriate "bar" that those approving a change in Scotland's relations with the other parts of the current UK.
I'll deal with your (seemingly) reasonable ideas in a subsequent post.
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106. At 2:08pm on 11 Oct 2008, Thomas_Porter wrote:
The reason I do not support the NHS is because I have private health insurance anyway, why would I want to pay more for something I will never use
I understand where you are coming from, but you have made one mistake I'm afraid. If you are involved in a serious accident (hopefully never), then your private health insurance means zip, since you would be attended to by an NHS ambulance, and almost certainly taken to an NHS A&E hospital.
I'm talking from personal experience here.
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#134 brigadierjohn
"Men in frocks should have no part in deciding our laws."
Thats the first time that I've seen you suggesting a change in the British constitution - debarring the Church of England bishops from the House of Lords.
As a reasonable chap, I presume you would put this to a referendum. What percentage of the UK electorate would you require to vote for it?
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124 Brigadier
Quote from Times and no I couldn't tell you which colour of the rainbow they are.
"New documents released under the Freedom of Information Act show he demanded a change of policy after a meeting with Ecclestone on October 16, 1997, and his officials went on to obfuscate the truth."
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New YouGov poll in the Sunday Times at: Financial crisis lifts Labour in polls
The "headline" figures are:
UK: Con 43.3%, Lab 32.9&
Scotland: SNP 37.5%, Lab 36.4%
A very small sample of 174 for Scotland, but I'll try to do some sums with the numbers overnight.
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New YouGov poll in the Sunday Times at: Financial crisis lifts Labour in polls
The "headline" figures are:
UK: Con 43.3%; Lab 32.9%
Scotland: SNP 37.5%; Lab 36.4%
A very small sample of 174 for Scotland, but I'll try to do some sums with the numbers overnight.
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# 108 well done scamp.
Your quite right, don't let anyone who so clearly knows so little talk down to you.
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#122 brigadierjohn
To your substantive point on the "bar" for constitutional change.
I agree with you (rather than the pronouncements of UK Governments of both parties) that a constitutional change should require a higher "bar" than in ordinary situations.
However, unless you've forgotten everything you learned as a journalist, you will know that the Unionist parties, throughout the 2nd half of the 20th century, consistently said that the bar was a majority of Scottish MPs supporting independence. They were happy to say that because they thought it would never happen.
As a British Nationalist who still opposes devolution, you presumably feel that George Cunningham's 40% of the electorate was a great wheeze to counter devolution, and it worked.
A more valid basis for an appropriate "bar" would be to recognise that some people in society aren't bothered one way or another, and choose not to express an opinion. Unless voting is made mandatory, and another option of "don't care" is on the ballot, then their "right to be ignored" must be respected.
However, of those that vote, it seems reasonable to demand more than 50.1% of those voting to create constitutional change. That's a reasonable % to start talks, but I would put a higher bar on the confirmatory referendum that I think should exist.
7.1% was the margin by which the 1979 refendum failed, so I'll accept "Unionist rules" and apply that. 57.1% of the votes should be a sufficient margin.
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#134 brigadierjohn
As a humanist, I'm in pretty much the same boat, although I'm also a republican and for complete separation of church and state.
#137 brigadierjohn
Not fury but certainly annoyance - perhaps both our logic chips need a rest.
To say "A claims proof of B; Proof of B means C" does not in logic accept A's claim but simply comments upon it.
However, it's late and I'll admit it could have been more clearly phrased.
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106. At 2:08pm on 11 Oct 2008, Thomas_Porter wrote:
The reason I do not support the NHS is because I have private health insurance anyway, why would I want to pay more for something I will never use
ah yes Thatcher's divide and destroy tactic. Force people onto private insurance and start to dismantle the NHS, as everyone seems to want private insurance. You also forget that private health insurance companies only want healthy people. First sign of a serious illness and I'm sure they will find all sort of opt outs and you'll be kicked back to the NHS.
Still nice to see that you're quite happy about looking after yourself and 'screw' anyone else.
Also why are you confident that the SNP will always ensure health and education is properly funded (esp since you'll use neither) .. just because they said so
Oh and since you asked I'm Scottish
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#141 oldnat
LOL but you'll get some stick for it no doubt.
Not much new so I'll be off until tomorrow.
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138. At 10:00pm on 11 Oct 2008, DisgustedDorothy wrote:
If you visit the Channel 4 website and follow directions to More 4 news , you will come accross a recent , illuminating piece about our Nordic friends and their oil fund investments.
Hope you don't mind the link is below for those who might have difficulty in finding it.
http://link.brightcove.com/services/link/bcpid1184614595/bctid1847355097
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Brigadier
A follow-up as to why I checked back on your previous posts -
"on 27 Sep 2008, brigadierjohn wrote:
I don't mind being "fed" information.... so long as I know who's holding the spoon, and whether he's trustworthy-!"
You are no balanced observer, but a British Nationalist who is just as "untrustworthy"as any other person committed to a political position, and doesn't give evidence to support their views.
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#148
Hello there again,
Private Health Insurance is quite similar to car insurance. They take alook at the individual, see how likely they are to claim the health insurance and charge you accordingly. It's a gamble and they win most of the time because the odds work in their favour, even if you do fall terribly ill then the chances are they have still made a profit out of you after treating you.
You ask the worst questions. The reason why all political parties will ensure that education and health are properly funded is because that is what the public want to see doing well. It's something we are all happy to pay taxes for.
Can I ask why you have a problem with me not supporting the NHS? The chances are I am in a small minority who want to see the NHS scrapped so most folk don't give a hoot what I say on the issue.
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152.
I personally would support not having to pay any taxes at all for services I don't use, but the taxation system is not run for my benefit but for the benefit of everyone, including those who can't pay anything and need the services provided.
It is your choice, or good fortune, if it job connected, to have 'private health insurance' but you can't opt out - the National Health Service is exactly that - it is there for everybody, but you don't just pay for yourself - you pay for anyone who needs it.
The same applies to all other things the State provides - this means people like you and I have to pay more than our fair share, even more so as the rich, who used to pay far more in taxes, are now protected by all shades of political opinion.
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I see Alex Salmond is coming cap in hand to Westminster for some more English cash.
NEWSFLASH - Labour has bankrupted England too.
Nor more handouts! Scrap the Barnett NOW!
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Anyone care to speculate whether the NuLab apologists here are simply peddling the party line or are NuLab reading these pages and regurgitating their claims?
The following words sound sound terribly familiar from reading this blog this week: "Alex Salmond said that he wants Scotland to be like Ireland and Iceland. Ireland is in recession and Iceland is bankrupt. That shows that the SNP ideas for Scotland's economy fall far short of the strength we get by being part of the UK. I don't want Scotland to be part of the arc of insolvency."
According to today's Observer (the Grauniad's Sunday sister), they're a direct quote from Roy last night on the stump. For more repitition of R-E & Co's words of the past week, see: Scotland is safer in UK, says Labour, which has the catchy by-line: "Salmond accused of aiming to turn Scotland into a new Iceland as by-election campaign hots up".
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#154 englandrise
I think most of us posting here know that "Labour has bankrupted England too."
If you're in England and want fair funding for all, vote for a party that wants a federal UK with full fiscal autonomy for it's constituent nations. Either that or vote for a party who will give you English independence, perhaps within the EU and the Euro as the SNP want.
So far as I'm aware, the LibDems offer the former and fair voting too.
I'm not sure who offers the latter. If that's what you want maybe you need to start your own party.
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#155.
While I agree that the Barnett Formula is outdated, can I point out that a lot of English regions are "subsidised" as well.
But London is also dependent on other areas, as it's not exactly self sufficient in food production.
As for Alex Salmond, I think he is making a fool of himself. "Please Sir, may I have some more?". Totally ill-judged and ill-timed approach. Where exactly will this billion pounds be invested?
But as for Gordon Brown's "UK will lead the fight" approach - God help us all.
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#154 englandrise
"Exports of UK oil rose, while those of chemicals fell during August.
There were also falls in the export of ships and cars. "
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7660846.stm
Pity all the toxic debt couldn't be exported as well.
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Interesting article re Brown's deteriorating eyesight in the Telegraph.
While it doesn't make me any more sympathetic to Labour policies, it does help to explain some of his apparent idiosyncracies.
Also makes me glad that this blog hasn't detriorated to the vicious personal attacks on him that infest NR's blog.
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#157 Neil_Small147
Unless I've misunderstood my own #155, I think your #157 was intended as a response to englandrise's #154. I always try to quote both the post's # and originator to avoid just that kind of confusion. It also makes it easier to respond when you don't have to check every earlier post to see if it was one of your own.
Re the rest of your post, I largely agree except to say that it's likely that the reports we see re Salmond's Oliver Twist impressions are from a largely unionist media.
In any event, under the present devolutionary arrangements, Scotland has no fiscal autonomy and can only look to HM Treasury. A complete rebuff from the NuLab UK government could play either way but would certainly give the SNP some cards to play on the autonomy theme.
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Oldnat and Brownedov: My, what busy boys on the late shift! Too many points for me to count, never mind address. So consider this a joint answer of sorts.
I don't think I was over-promoted. In fact the wailing and gnashing of teeth upon my departure - and the subsequent deterioration in the business - suggests the opposite.
Thank you for pigeon-holing me as a British Nationalist. I didn't know. But if there's a grouping for those who steadfastly refuse to "belong" that's my home.
Historical posts: I believed what I said at the time, contradictions and all. I'm not in support of anything here, so I have no need to conform or be accountable to anything or anyone.
Sunday Times poll: So about 90 people will vote SNP? I'm amazed.
I don't think we need a referendum to dump bishops. Did we have one on peers?
Where next? Oh, yes. I don't oppose devolution (although I did when it was first mooted) and I am open to argument about con/federalism (mildly enthusiastic if that's not an oxymoron) and even independence, if a credible case ever emerges.
I'm glad there's some broad agreement on the referendum "bar" for independence. Your comments on this represent the best compromise we're likely to get.
I think the ABC bit on logic is from Aristotle, but I think Newton, Darwin and Einstein blew most of his stuff away. But that would fill a thousand books.
Sorry if I missed anything. But don't bother filing my answers - I may have a new view tomorrow. Nothing is set in stone.
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I have to admit that I knew little of the Nordic banking crisis of the early 1990s (I think it was overshadowed here by the ERM cris), so I've done some checking.
In 2005 Norges Bank wrote a retrospective analysis on the causes of, their response to the previous crisis, and likely strategies needed for the next one!
Not only does it make interesting reading on its own, it raises the question of why did not one single political party in Scotland, or the UK seem to have any awareness either?
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#159 oldnat
Yes - interesting, and I agree that one can despise his policies and his spin without mocking his physical condition.
The Torygraph also have an interesting summary of proven foresight in their Vince Cable: Sage of the credit crunch, but this Liberal Democrat is not for gloating.
Goes to show that not all the SDP were wrong, but I still feel that the alliance with the Liberals was the better way forward - it might even have proved possible to form an electoral alliance with the SNP in these interesting times.
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Rather than concentrating on the phyiscal side, the Indy's Is Gordon Brown cashing in on the markets crisis? is quite a reasonable exposition of "Duff" (in the political sense) Gordon's management style with another sage quote from Cable: "Gordon has had a very good week ... But last week will soon be forgotten when people find they are worse off."
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Those of you who rely on the TV or Radio Scotland for their Sunday news and politics fix won't have heard today's Broadcasting House from Radio 4.
A particulary good mix today, with Kircaldy, a Building Society and Iceland all getting coverage. It's available to "Listen Again" or as a podcast from the link above.
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#164 Brownedov: I think we all said to ourselves, in my own case years ago, that the levels of personal debt being encouraged "could not go on." We knew banks were lending too much to people who obviously could neither afford it nor handle money. Few of us knew that bad debts were being traded as bonds on an international scale.
So it's a bit rich for politicians today to claim prescience - we all said it in some form or another. It was worse than we thought, however.
Much as I dislike the man, I find myself again moved to defend Brown. He's had some rotten luck and made some bad calls (like the 10p rate) and now he's being criticised for earning kudos by making as good a fist of the crisis as anyone could in the circumstances. That's double standards, plain and simple.
Personally, I wish Brown and Darling good luck in what they are trying to do. And cheap sniping from the sidelines simply diminishes the snipers. This is a national and international crisis - don't be such parochial opportunists.
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#162 oldnat
Very interesting reading indeed, and a pity that none of Tone's Crones have shown the analytical ability or prescience of Ms Gulbransen's 2005 paper.
All the signs she lists as "a classic boom-bust crisis with some special, national features" certainly existed in Bliar's 2005 UK and continued to do so in Brown's 2007 UK until the boom perished on Northern Rock, viz:
Could she have been Dr Vince's bedtime reading?
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Brownedov
It seems that Cable is generally regarded as having been more "on the ball" than others, but I think has only been raising the issue since July.
My concern about all the political parties related more to the points I raised in a previous thread, that, on economic issues, they have all both followed and encouraged our selfishness as investors and consumers.
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#166 brigadierjohn
Some of what you say is perfectly reasonable, and the Tories have certainly had virtually the same light-touch regulatory policies over the same period - suggesting that they would do little or nothing much different to NuLab in search of recovery.
But, and they're big ones:
1. There is no evidence that the man has learned to listen over the period - his continued refusal to apologise for the 10% tax fiasco suggests quite the contrary.
2. There is no evidence to suggest that the man who proved himself wrong over his boasting re "no return to boom & bust" will do more than empty boasting and some "clever" fiscal juggling in a desperate attempt to be re-elected.
As they have retained power by controlling the purse strings, perhaps the unionists will lose it by proving so poor at the job.
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#168 oldnat
Re Cable: Quite so, as I suggest in my #167 (probably still with the mods when you posted), but he does seem to be the best of a bad lot by a long way.
"on economic issues, they have all both followed and encouraged our selfishness as investors and consumers"
True and pertinent. These are not "core" Scottish values (nor Welsh, Irish or even English [outwith the M25] ones) but are more The American Dream than anything European.
I can't comment on the current EU because I'm not familiar the new member countries but in the old EC and Switzerland, while that dream is heavily "sold" it has never been so extensively "bought", mainly because of much tighter credit availability from mortgages to credit cards (hardly different from debit cards for most customers).
I know it's a forlorn hope, but rather than banging on about the rest of the EU following a British lead, "Duff" Gordon really should be listening to the rest of the old EC's leaders in the hope of emulating what I suspect will be their relatively fast recovery from the toxic US debt their idiotic banks landed them with.
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#169 Brownedov: Calling for apologies is tabloid politics, better suited to the Jerry Springer Show. He admitted a mistake. Trying to diminish what's happening by calling it "clever fiscal juggling" is simply breath-taking.
Virtually the entire Western World is on the brink of meltdown, the Chinese are waiting to move in and, literally, buy us up. And a wee Scotsman - in full-blown "ah kent his faither" mode - is attempting to undermine our best hope, our only hope right now, of coming out of this relatively intact. I think you should apologise.
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Scotland now has to accept that it is but a passenger in the Union
It is over represented in our democracy and its toy town assembly is a meaningless sop given to them by the BLIAR and Brown
Time to settle down and work together as one nation and to wakeup from your childish dreams
Now is the age of reality especially so after more than ten years of this miserable government and more recently the total rubbish spoken by Salmond and Co
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#153
Sheneval.
I do not mind paying towards our National Health Service because I understand that certain people can not afford insurance but need support because they still contribute to our country. The only real reason I do not support our National Health Service is because its not National, but International. It's used by everyone entering the United Kingdom, remember that woman from Ghana? I don't mind supporting those who support the state but I draw the line supporting those who have not paid into the system. There is no control of the balance between people paying into our Health Care from those taking out, understand me?
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#172
"Scotland now has to accept that it is but a passenger in the Union"
If that is your opinion why do you need us to help you out? Some facts might be useful.
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Ukingdom:
Scotland has accepted that its a passenger in the Union, thats the problem. Scotland has to follow despite the differences of opinion. By the way I do believe its a dictatorship when one side 'has' to follow another?
Also I also believe that Britain was founded by Scotland and England/Wales on an equal partnership? In this case Scotland should be able to send an equal amount of representatives to our National Parliament to debate our future (something I support and should be changed).
You must be an English Tory, or at least an SNP supporter here to troll and give a bad impression of Unionists or perhaps you are an English Tory pretending to be an SNP supporter to give the false impression that Nationalists are pretending to be Unionists to show them in a bad light?
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#171 brigadierjohn
"He admitted a mistake."
Untrue. He regretted that people misunderstood his motives. He still hasn't even admitted that anyone will suffer for his lust for middle-English votes.
"clever fiscal juggling"
Is what I fear we're in for until 2010 unless someone in NuLab rids us of this Jonah.
"attempting to undermine our best hope, our only hope right now"
Wow! Nailing your colours to the NuLab mast?
"I think you should apologise."
I will, happily, if you prove me wrong by mid-2010, but in the meantime I shall remain terrified of all the power given to a buffoon I regard as combining incompetence with arrogance and self-importance to a rare degree.
For now we'll obviously have to agree to differ. I'm off out now, but will hope to look back in this evening.
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160. At 12:10pm on 12 Oct 2008, Brownedov wrote:
#157 Neil_Small147
Unless I've misunderstood my own #155, I think your #157 was intended as a response to englandrise's #154.
No, I was referring to #154, your comment was still awaiting moderation at the time.
As to the "Oliver Twist" comment, I was making that from my own ideas, rather than steal from the media, although it was fairly obvious that would be used. Maybe I should have used a line from Dirty Harry!
I'm a little bit concerned with Alex Salmond here. Every other leader in the EU at least is working together, whereas Alex wants to do it alone. Why can't he push his ideas to the EU? If they are sound I'm quite sure they would at least listen. But he is trying to play politics again!. If Scotland gets the billion pounds or so, he can then say "look we can do it" (even though he has had to borrow the money). On the other hand, if he does not get the money he can say that "once more Westminister is ignoring Scotland".
This is not the time to be playing nationalist or unionist politics. There is a much bigger problem out there.
I think that the SNP are going to have to rethink their approach, certainly on economic terms. For all the talk that Scotland would not have suffered etc etc is unproven, and probably highly unlikely. Scotland would have probably gone bankrupt.
As for the current problem. About time people stopped blaming previous administrations - the problem is here, and it won't go away by blaming each other. By all means learn the lessons, for put away politics for five minutes and try and work a solution. I am sick to the back teeth of politicians of all parties trying to gain a short term advantage.
I am getting a horrible feeling that no one knows what the hell they are doing.
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Some quite funny stuff today, particularly from contributing English cousins who have conveniently airbrushed out the absolutely enormous sums of money Westminster has gathered in in Scottish oil revenues in the last three years.
The penny is beginning to drop however.
This global economic crisis is being used as a smokescreen to hide behind by Brown to obscure the fact that the "fiscal irresponsibility" which has caused this collapse was very largely the cause of the false economic success which Brown took credit for.
As Chancellor he watched our banks invent vast sums of money to lend to us, he taxed this imaginery economy and sold it to us as "stability" and "prudence" and "ten years of continuous economic growth" which in actual fact is now exposed as merely ten years of growing consumption fuelled by rampaging national and personal debt totally divorced from any actual physical production of real wealth.
Problem is will this spin bubble burst before Glenrothes?
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A distinction has to made between:
1. Countries that had robust regulation, and whose banks are not undercapitalised and not greatly troubled as a result of the banking crisis, and
2. pretty much every country now being shaken by the panic caused by the expectation of a long and deep global recession caused by the toxic debt issue, that is concentrated in the biggest economy of the lot the USA, but has been exacerbated by the UK’s situation.
Countries in group 1. are, for example, Norway, Denmark, Sweden, Spain, and Australia
The UK followed the deregulation herd and is definitely not in this group, but if it had adopted the regulation policies run by these countries, most of our banks (excl HSBC) would not be in the dire state they are now. The politicians in the dock for this are both Tory and Labour, and in particular Gordon Brown.
By extension there is no reason why Scotland, if independent, could not have chosen to behave like those in the first group, clearly size of the economy is not a determining factor.
I am sure that the political weight of the City will prevent radical changes to the UK regime, so the sooner we leave the UK the sooner we can adopt a more conservative regime, either alone like Norway or under the Euro umbrella.
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The following is on the North Ayrshire website (my emphasis)
"Iceland Banks and North Ayrshire
Statement from Councillor David O’Neill, Leader of North Ayrshire Council
The Council has investments with both the Landsbanki (£5m) and Glitnir Bank (£10m) in Iceland. These deposits were taken out within the last 12 months and were made in accordance with the Council’s approved investment strategy. At the time of investment these banks provided a good return at minimum risk – illustrated by the £800m of exposure by UK local authorities.
At this stage, no council services are affected by this issue.
Discussions are ongoing at Scottish and UK government level to pursue a guaranteed return of the investment.
In terms of potential council tax increases and effects on the communities of North Ayrshire, whilst no detrimental impact is envisaged at this time, the matter is being closely monitored. "
Not very encouraging is it?
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#175 Thomas
You misunderstand Ukingdom. He posts the same kind of stuff on NR's blog.
Oddly, he demonstrates a significant difference between the political dialogue in Scotland and England.
While his patronising, unsubstantiated assertions read very oddly here, they just merge into the sea of Tory inanity on the NR blog.
Here, for example, a Scots Tory contributor would never use such language.
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172. At 2:35pm on 12 Oct 2008, Ukingdom
I am afraid that there is nothing childish about seeking self-determination for one’s country. The USA weren’t Childish in 1775 and neither are, for example, Slovenia, or Latvia, two recently independent countries, now.
And I have to point out that your tone and content is, unfortunately, very patronising. If this is accidental fair enough, but, if you intended it to be so, then you should be aware that UK unionists are not in a position to look down on anyone, especially at the moment.
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#179 impeachblair
I agree that "size of the economy is not a determining factor."
From what I've read it seems more likely that we would have been more like Norway, and had our banking crisis 15 years ago, and had a stronger regulatory structure in place to limit our exposure to the wider crisis we are part of now.
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183. At 4:05pm on 12 Oct 2008, oldnat
yes, I agree.
I left the door open for a euro solution, but they are not acting in concert at the moment, which removes the major advantage.
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#177.
Neil_Small147.
"Why can't he push his ideas to the EU?"
I didn't know Alex Salmond was allowed or had the mandate to go straight to the European Union. He neither has the authority to handle foreign relations, Britain also represents Scotland at the European Union. Alex Salmond is very limited at the moment.
"If Scotland gets the billion pounds or so, he can then say "look we can do it" (even though he has had to borrow the money)."
Again, I did not know Scotland raised her own taxes, I also was unaware that Scotland was allowed to borrow. The British Treasury controls the purse strings for Scotland, Alex Salmond has no other choice but to ask Westminister for money. Besides are you against Alex Salmond for showing that Scotland can do it themselves? Also borrowing is not a terrible thing, Britain has borrowed hundreds of billions. Does that mean Britain can not go it alone for resorting to borrowing? Or what were you trying to suggest by your remark which you had in brackets?
"Scotland would have probably gone bankrupt."
This is scaremongering. There is no evidence to suggest how an Independent Scotland would be at this moment of time. If Scotland was Independent then things would be different for us, internally and internationally. If Scotland had lax regulation covering our financial industries then, yes, Scotland could well be in a position like Iceland or Ireland but do you actually see that as a possibility with Scottish Labour or the Nationalists in-charge (assuming politics stays the same)?
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#176 Brownedov: As a gentleman, I accept your word without demur. I was clearly mistaken in thinking that I heard Brown admit an error in a televised part of the Labour Party conference.
As for pinning my colours to the "nuLab" mast, I can only laugh. Your visceral hatred of Labour and Brown occasionally blinds you to reason.
You don't offer a solution to the immediate problem. I assume it's along the lines of "sack Brown, hold a snap election, and hand the reins to......?"
Can you imagine the damage to the present loose consensus if an election were called? Can you imagine the damage in the financial markets caused by uncertainty? Can you imagine a new leader pitched into it from nowhere? I don't think you can.
Can you think of anyone among the candidates who is not a buffoon, equally prone to the cock-ups, cover-ups, deviousness and outright dishonesty that seems to be the norm in world politics? And in banks. And in major companies.
Try to imagine Gordon Brown as the big striker you don't want in your football team. You prefer Striker X, but when you go along Brown is playing. You still support the team, you'll still cheer if Brown scores a hat-trick.
Is he more or less likely to score, however, if you're screaming abuse at him, or making obscene chants.
In the circumstances, I'm afraid, you are that abusive person on the sidelines, damaging the team. Perhaps you want failure?
When this difficult game is over we can go back to discussing the big picture, but right now, even Salmond is trying his best to look supportive, if irrelevant. It is utterly beyond the Pale to indugle oneself in personal hatreds or political bile when we are all - regardless of status or belief - on the edge of disaster.
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#185. At 5:09pm on 12 Oct 2008, Thomas_Porter
I wasn't trying to scaremonger. It is easy when your are effectively in opposition - which frankly Scotland is when it comes to Westminster - to state you would do this or that.
Before the last Scottish elections, did any party state that they would change the regulation on how financial institutions operated to prevent such a crisis?
I ask this openly, but I have a feeling that if Scotland was independent then we would have followed the same patterns. Maybe we wouldn't, but no one can say for certainty since the matter was never discussed prior to the current situation.
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#185 Thomas: Salmond has not the slightest expectation of getting his billion. This is a card he plays endlessly: make silly demands, and then whine "big bad UK is damaging Scotland again." It plays well to the hard of thinking.
Re your stuff about the NHS: If you're carted into your local hospital with a broken leg, the computer will flash when "Thomas Porter" is keyed. Enema for Mr Porter, whether he needs it or not! Mind you, with friends like yours, who needs enemas? Sorry!
Thomas, you still haven't told me about your Army experience. You were silent for a while, and I feared you were off to Afghanistan. But you returned without explanation to this blog. I'm sure your story is more interesting than politics.
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#187 Neil_Small: Correct. It would be the same greedy bankers' snouts in the same overflowing troughs, regardless of constitutional status. This is another example of fantasy politics for the gullible.
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#187.
Neil_Small147.
UK or Scottish elections? I will assume that you are talking about the UK general elections since the Scottish Parliament has no authority over how financial instituitions operate. I would assume not, UK-Labour and the Tories both follow right wing economic policy. However did anyone voice concerns over the lax regulation rules? I believe several figures did.
"...but no one can say for certainty since the matter was never discussed prior to the current situation."
That is pretty much what most people have said. No one can tell the arrangements Scotland would be in at this moment of time. You are the person stating we would be bankrupt, how did you come to that conclusion? Of course if we followed UK-Labours method we would be in trouble but Scottish Labour and the Nationalists, our main parties, are different to that of UK-Labour. They are more left of centre (support regulation), plus Salmond has experience with banks and could have seen and realised the potential dangers we were in for.
I'm not claiming Scotland would not be in trouble. I am claiming Scotland would not be bankrupt in this situation (yet) who knows what else could be happening if Scotland was Independent.
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#186 brigadierjohn
The text and video extracts of the speech are currently (perhaps not for long, like the 2005 manifesto!) on the Labour Party website at Gordon Brown speaks to Conference.
His words according to the text were: "So what happened with 10p stung me because it really hurt that suddenly people felt I wasn't on the side of people on middle and modest incomes...." That's what he actually says, about 4 minutes in to the video.
IE NO apology but resentment that we didn't understand him. You may have thought he had apologised because the previous sentence was "And where I've made mistakes I'll put my hand up and try to put them right."
I can imagine a few others who would show just a little humility at the task ahead of them who wouldn't be afraid to admit their failings. Cable or even Ken Clarke as Chancellor in a GNU led by almost anyone but Brown would have a chance of doing the right thing and I would sleep just a little easier knowing my savings and pension fund were not playthings of proven liars.
There may be a little truth in the old "better the devil you know"
adage, but when you know the incumbents have proved sadly wanting it's time to say goodbye to them.
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John:
I do not think Salmonds claim is silly at all. Of course because Salmond represents the Scottish National Party the claim becomes something more. Should Scotland be allowed to help prevent an economic crises? I beleive that Westminister should allowed the Scottish Parliament to use funds to help our economy during tough times. In the Union I do hope Scotland can be more flexible instead of sitting and waiting for things to get better.
I had issues with my hearing as a child (I grew out of it), its became an issue along with my eyesight in recent months. I am hoping to be in the frontline so I am no use if I can't listen to orders or see the enemy. I have to undergo treatment, I might leave so I can be in Aberdeen rather then Leeds so I am with family and friends. I will then come back as an Adult Soldier instead and be based in Catterick, the training is shorter to so I will be back in Scotland quicker then I will be now. That pretty much covers my situation now.
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Re 176
Brownedov
I don't like the way you apply double standards to our politicans, it undermines the whole credibility of what you say.
You have in previous posts praised mr Salmond. now if he is not arrogant.......
I make no secret of my dislike for Mr Salmond, but I will give him credit for what he is good at.
I think Gordon Brown has done a good job in the current crisis, I don't like all of what he has done but in this case I think of all the options open to us he is the best. Imagine Cameron and Osbourne in charge just now? Or william Hague if he is not in Italy? As it unfolds it looks like GB has played his hand pretty well.
Of course this will be at some cost we will find out about later and that will be the time to write the History books.
Remember Alex wanted to rush in and give HBOS 100m. This must surely be the chance for him to shine on the Euro stage, no ideas or initiatives in that direction at all. Remember our best interest is to be independant in Europe. Alex has not made the best of this situation really.
I agree with the other posters who make the point that no party or politician, even Vince cable was campaigning at the last election for the medicine we now require.
I rarely go on the NR blog because it makes think of the positives for Independance. I took a look today and well it is awful. I don't want to see Scotland's standard of debate lower to that level.
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189. At 6:13pm on 12 Oct 2008, brigadierjohn and 197 Neil Small
It is almost certainly not correct I refer you to my 179 above.
A newly independent Scotland would almost certainly have looked to other similar countries to see how they did it, ie Norway, Denmark, Ireland and Sweden.
This is, and has been for some time, categorically part of Nationalist thinking.
The heavier financial regulation would have been eased by among other things a lower CT rate, which is also Nationalist policy.
I suggest you read back to some of Oldnat and Brownedov's other posts on for example Norwegian regulation, and take a google through some of these country's regs - I will leave you to find your own links Brigadier.
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Re194
I assume that this is really a fictional post?
This is the type of post that undermines the nationalist cause.
How can anyone say with any certainty what might have happened if a set of circumstances had been in place.
Read the SNP manifesto, I have and can't find the bit that would have prevented this crisis.
Please try to live in the real world.
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195. At 7:16pm on 12 Oct 2008, northhighlander
The logic is quite clear, not a fantasy at all, why I ask you is Australian banking so heavily regulated?
Have you checked the regulations in these countries?
Are you aware of the previous banking crises?
What lead should Scotland take, not many from the UK that is for certain, in any field eg Immigration, energy, warfare, nuclear weapons, and also banking
I suggest you get out of your unionist, "the UK is wonderful" mindset and take a leaf out of Eorpa's book, for instance, and learn how Europe addresses issues.
They make mistakes too but there is rich experience out there.
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#193 northhighlander
"I don't like the way you apply double standards to our politicans, it undermines the whole credibility of what you say."
I truly try not to, but ever since '97 we have been fed little but lies, spin and arrogance from the "New Labour" leadership headed by Bliar & Brown. Bliar probably stands alone as the arch liar and spinner, while Brown is supremely arrogant and his previous lack of "real world" experience shows him to be out of his depth. I changed my login in July so there are no early references to quote but I am consistent in having said and believed that from the outset. Other politicians tend to inspire mixed emotions and I may criticize in one area but praise in another. I would not question the integrity of Tony Benn or David Davis, for example, but would definitely challenge many of their policies, just as I would not question the ability of Major to be a good listener.
"You have in previous posts praised mr Salmond. now if he is not arrogant......."
In my #79 on the previous thread in response to your #55, I acknowledged that: "There's certainly an element of arrogance there..." Not being an SNP member, I would not defend him per se but judge him issue by issue.
"I think Gordon Brown has done a good job in the current crisis, I don't like all of what he has done but in this case I think of all the options open to us he is the best."
Because of his inability to listen to others, I totally disagree, and believe almost anyone in Parliament couldn't do a worse job as PM. The job of Chancellor needs an even better listener - preferably with some real world world experience.
"Imagine Cameron and Osbourne in charge just now? Or william Hague..."
None of them ideal, but none of them as arrogant and unwilling to listen as Brown.
"Remember Alex wanted to rush in and give HBOS 100m. This must surely be the chance for him to shine on the Euro stage, no ideas or initiatives in that direction at all. Remember our best interest is to be independant in Europe. Alex has not made the best of this situation really."
Certainly not perfect, but given that fiscal matters and relations with the EU are not devolved he is doing the best he can to mitigate the situation.
"I agree with the other posters who make the point that no party or politician, even Vince cable was campaigning at the last election for the medicine we now require."
A fair point that poor regulation wan't made as much of as it should have been, although Cable did say on p10 of the 2005 LibDem manifesto: "We will tackle irresponsible credit expansion in mortgages and personal loans by curbing misleading advertising and anti-competitive practices by promoters of insurance for mortgages and loans, and of credit cards." Again not perfect, but not a bad starting point in 2005.
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Eurozone has followed the UK in adopting the Swedish model for a solution to the most urgent aspects of the banking crisis.
Europe urging that the US and Europe co-convene an international conference to sort out global solutions to the global problem.
Sky News reporting that the Lloyds/HBOS deal is off.
All rather good news for someone with my political beliefs -
Co-operation between the major economies on banking regulation.
Closer integration of the UK (therefore Scotland) in European finance (can we join the euro soon please. Mr Brown?)
Bank HQs continue in Edinburgh with the jobs and revenue stream involved.
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#192 Thomas: I was very upset to read about your problems, which thankfully seem to be relatively minor and treatable. You must do what is best for your health as a priority. I most sincerely hope that all goes well and you can fulfil your ambitions.
Don't spend too much time at the screen and take frequent breaks.
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#194 impeachblair: I'm struggling with your references to how Ireland, Denmark and Sweden handled regulation. I don't excel in high finance, but isn't Ireland in recession? And why did Sweden and Denmark have to issue guarantees to bank customers if their regulation was so good? Did the banks get involved in bad debt bonds despite the regulations?
This is not an aggressive or truculent question - I'd simply like to see an explanation in layman's terms.
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#191 Brownedov: I never doubted you. Honestly. If I was nitpicking, I might say that the two sentences you quote, taken together, could be linked and construed as an apology. Semantics? Your interpretation might depend on your prior disposition.
I like Vince Cable. But why does he not have a higher profile? He seems to have come from nowhere post-Ming, delivered the Mr Bean jibe, assumed celeb status and has talked lots of sense since. Undoubtedly a great after-dinner speaker, but ready for the front line in a crisis? The jury's out.
I like Ken Clarke also. But the old tobacco baron warhorse is now called away from his cigars and brandy only to spout the old "never in my day" stuff. I don't think he fancies, or needs, the hard graft.
A Government of National Unity, eh? I'm glad you'd be reassured by this. My own view is that the very name speaks of panic, desperation and fear. Just the thing to get the populace running to the banks to withdraw everything.
In better times, however, I have often wondered why parties can't shave off their unruly edges and bring the best people together regardless. Today, it would be dangerous.
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#200 brigadierjohn
It's important not to confuse the banking crisis and recession. There is a relationship, partly caused by the fear of recession concerning those who knew how over-extended the debt was compared with its capital base.
impeachblair's grouping of more regulated nations in his #179 was better than his selection in his #194.
Ireland followed the neo-liberal dream - hence its over-exposure to the debt markets.
Sweden suffered the Nordic version of the current crisis in the early 1990's, then restructured its banking system on the model that the UK (and now the Eurozone) have adopted. It is much more heavily regulated.
Denmark avoided the early 1990's Nordic bank crash because it always demanded that its banks had a higher capital to debt ratio. Retention of that system means that it is less exposed now.
While I'm happy that Brown adopted the Swedish 1990's recovery model rather than the Paulson strategy in the USA, the politicians like him, who rode the neo-liberal debt derivatives model can't escape the liability for where we are now.
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190. At 6:23pm on 12 Oct 2008, Thomas_Porter wrote:
#187.
Neil_Small147.
"...but no one can say for certainty since the matter was never discussed prior to the current situation."
---------------------
I said probably - not definitely. I'm not that naive, and I accept that regulation may have been put in place. But the SNP - to my knowledge anyway, please correct me if I am wrong - never mentioned tightening up the regulations in their manifesto. Therefore I assumed (not always a good idea) that current regulations would have remained, but that is pure speculation.
On another note: we are facing a grave financial crisis, and what does the MSP Christine Grahame propose? That Mary Queen of Scots' body is returned to Scotland.
Glad to see that some SNP MSPs have their priorities right.......
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#203 Neil_Small147
"Mary Queen of Scots' body is returned to Scotland. "
I don't see your problem. I thought the "French Connection" was a great film!
:-)
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As promised in my #144 above, I have now done some more analysis of the YouGov poll in today's Sunday Times, for which fieldwork was done last Thursday & Friday.
First, I must stress that the Scottish sample of 174 is much too small to be guaranteed representative and I especially mistrust the very large fall in LibDem support to 5.0% (from 17.7% in '05 & 14.0% in '07), the very large rise in Tory support to 20.9% (from 15.8% in '07 & 14.3% in '07) and the drop in "other" to 0.2% (from 5.0% in '05 & 1.9% in '07).
That said, the data is the data and can be extrapolated like any other, but please don't put your shirt on it!
Using the 2005 Glenrothes results, applying the changes and guessing a turnout around 15% down consistent with recent by-elections, the SNP would sneak home 276 votes ahead of Labour, with all others bar the Tory losing their deposits.
Using the 2007 results in the wards that make up Glenrothes and applying as above, the SNP majority would go up to 1,082 over Labour, with others bar the Tory still losing their deposits.
Remember, these figures are based on a small sample and take no account of any by-election or candidate factors. So in summary, it looks somewhat closer than it did in mid-August but the SNP still look likely to win albeit more narrowly.
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#204 oldnat
I quite liked The Great Escape that is the Hollywood version which was made on speculative finance. Not the Westminster one which is using taxpayers money who have no choice in the matter and going up this week by another £35 billion tomorrow.
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#203 Neil_Small147-
Equally, good to see our Tory MSP and his Tartan Register winning UNANIMOUS support in the wee-pretendy; parrochialism isn't limited to Christine Grahame or the SNP!
Anyhoo,
"Is our Scottish voice, on issues of Scottish concern, drowned out by a louder cry from London? For Scotland, this is a genuine and substantive debate. As it is for England - or should be." - from a report in Dec 2006 by Brian Taylor.
As our FM has limited powers to deal with devolved matters, isn't it genuine to attempt to look after his remit? Won't an additional £1 billion go a long way to prevent recession/depression in Scotland? As we all shall be paying for the "bail-outs" announced this week, for many years to come, is it not "prudent" to try and protect any area of the UK which has bucked the slowdown to an extent so far?
If anyone disagrees with a cash-injection, they obviously have not thought the matter through- Eck is looking to prevent a bigger fight later, not start one today!
It will soon be forgotten that GB steered a "steady-course" through the current stormy-seas. What shall be remembered is how long it took to return even to the UK's level of debt pre-September 2008!
That is why Independence, or at least fiscal Independence, is not only better, but necessary for Scotland...it's economy is different from England and tends to react differently and later than shown in UK indicators.
To retain the link is to limit both sides and weaken the two.
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#203 Neil Small,
I agree with you it is exceedingly strange that Mary Queen of Scots is being 'brought up' (maybe literally shortly) now.
But remember, if only the Scottish Parliament had proper powers (of a sovereign nation) it would be far more capable of taking meaningful action. This situation where we look on helplessly, and wonder what the great incompetent one in No. 10 will come up with, is exactly what the Unionist Parties advocate. That is why we are left looking at interesting irrelevant issues like this in our devolved 'region'.
Even the freeing up of the c1 billion withheld cash by Westminster would help the Scottish economy no end. But we can't have that, as Gordon doesn't want to hand it over; he would rather give that extra 1 billion (as part of 500) to make sure that the bankers - he said he would 'punish' - get nice golden parachutes when they are finally forced to go for their incompetence.
Incidentally, what does everyone think Gordon's price to admit his utter incompetence and go would be? EU commissioner? I hear there is an opening ... and there is no election required!
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#201 brigadierjohn
"If I was nitpicking, I might say that the two sentences you quote, taken together, could be linked and construed as an apology."
True - I never said he doesn't have some reasonable speechwriters. The commentators said it was an apology for at least 30 seconds before the meaning sank in.
"I like Vince Cable. But ... The jury's out."
At least he has a real-world track record in the field, shows he's willing to listen and hasn't spent the last decade obfuscating the situation.
"I like Ken Clarke also. But ... I don't think he fancies, or needs, the hard graft."
You're probably right.
"A Government of National Unity, eh? ... My own view is that the very name speaks of panic, desperation and fear."
Partly so, but at least NuLab would no longer be able to conceal the truth, while the other parties would have to accept it. It's simply not practical to expect politicians denied a part in putting things right to sit and do nothing. Almost everywhere else in the EU and EEA, coalitions governments are the norm, ensuring that the PM or President doesn't have too much power and can't conceal matters of real importance. Everywhere but Italy it usually works pretty well, and I suspect that most Italians apart from the SudTirolers are not too upset most of the time that their governments lack "bite".
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#205 Brownedov.
Thanks for the analysis. I think the 2007 results are more important than 2005 when we come to look at Glenrothes. Factor in the goodwill the SNP government have and the effect of 100s of workers on the ground, then I feel the SNP will win by a few thousand. But there will be no complacency and a lot of hard work will be put in.
Freedom
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Peston is suggesting that the Lloyds/HBOS deal is still on, so we'll have to wait and see on that one.
The reluctance of all parties to pontificate on that issue makes a lot of sense.
Incidentally, did anyone else see Glen Campbell interviewing the Glenrothes candidates and Sturgeon/Park today?
I thought all the politicians were being sensibly consensual on most issues given the current crisis, despite Campbell trying to pressure the Labour people to say nasty things about the SNP.
Politicians 4 : Campbell 0.
The BBC could do worse than sack him.
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#210 hadrianswall
You're welcome, but do beware the health warnings! It certainly looks close enough to be worth fighting for on both sides, but we'll obviously have to wait and see how effective the opposing teams are. Much may depend on how "soft" the Tory and LibDem votes are and where they end up.
There's also the question of turnout, which I'm guessing will be about 15% down (in line with Glasgow East, Crewe and Henley) at 47.7%. But it could be much higher if it grips people or much lower if it doesn't and/or too many have moved out - the roll will be a full year old bar a few "rolling" registrees.
Like Glasgow East, a low turnout would help the SNP because relatively more Labour voters will stay home, whereas a higher turnout will benefit Labour. I'll wait until we get some meaningful data before predicting ranges, but at first glance anything below 50% should be good for the SNP and above 55% pretty bad.
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Neil_Small147:
"...we are facing a grave financial crisis, and what does the MSP Christine Grahame propose? That Mary Queen of Scots' body is returned to Scotland."
It looks like Christine Grahame is sticking to areas of Government that they can control. Westminister is officially in control of our financial situation. How come you expect an MSP to start speaking about matters that they were not officially elected to handle? What do you want from the Scottish Parliament? It appears to me that you are nit picking on small issues. It does not even seem to be SNP policy for Mary Queen of Scots to be returned. Just one individuals hope.
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Re Glenrothes, the Herald are certainly hedging their bets with their Leaders both seeking role of underdog in by-election. Quite balanced overall, although it makes no mention of any of the opinion polls, preferring to comment on the betting odds.
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Brownedov
SNP Conference is 16-19 October. Hopefully, there will be some polling after it, since the English papers (who can still fund polling) will be interested.
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"...we are facing a grave financial crisis, and what does the MSP Christine Grahame propose? That Mary Queen of Scots' body is returned to Scotland."
So what? So we stop everything else. Don't be absurd.
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As a political geek, I normally think I know what's happening in Scottish politics.
Apparently the Scottish LDs have been having their conference, but it didn't register with me. What chance of their being a "bounce" with your average punter?
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213. At 11:08pm on 12 Oct 2008, Thomas_Porter wrote:
Neil_Small147:
It looks like Christine Grahame is sticking to areas of Government that they can control. Westminister is officially in control of our financial situation. How come you expect an MSP to start speaking about matters that they were not officially elected to handle? What do you want from the Scottish Parliament? It appears to me that you are nit picking on small issues. It does not even seem to be SNP policy for Mary Queen of Scots to be returned. Just one individuals hope.
-----
Well, if that's all we can control then what's the point? If I remember rightly crime comes under Scottish Government control. So why does she not raise the far more serious issue regarding the state of Barlinnie prison?
As for independence now, I'm starting to shy away. With all this debt being accrued by our wonderful Westminster Government, I can see them lumping a generous proportion onto Scotland come independence.
By the way, any more news on what happens when Gordon Brown realises that we aren't going to get the money out of Iceland?
207. At 9:49pm on 12 Oct 2008, gt-cri wrote:
Equally, good to see our Tory MSP and his Tartan Register winning UNANIMOUS support in the wee-pretendy; parrochialism isn't limited to Christine Grahame or the SNP!
Good point! I forgot about that. Another excellent piece of quasi-politics.
What's next on the cards? A demand to Hollywood for proceeds from Braveheart? Rabbie Burns to be canonised?
I'm getting cynical again...........
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#218 Neil
Whenever you think of the idiots in the SNP, think of George Foulkes. That'll balance the humours in your system!
I don't think you have loyalty to any party and neither do I. However, whichever we decide is the one most likely to promote our heart-felt views, we have to accept that it will have some really stupid people in it!
If Christine Graham had made the suggestion that Mary's body be returned to boost the tourist industry, it would have had merit. I'm in favour of gaining revenue from dead royals - anyone know where the alcohol sodden corpse of Charlie Stuart is?
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Neil_Small147:
Shame on you Neil. You really are nit picking to gain cheap political points against the Scottish National Party. Well I am sure the responsibilities that surround 'crime' would involve a certain minister and of course Alex Salmond. Please explain why Christine Grahame should speak on matters that does not concern her? It is not her duty afterall, Alex Salmond did not give them responsibilites covering crime (possibly for a reason).
I am not sure how our debt will be allocated. I do believe that debt which was spent in Scotland would be given to Scotland, Westminister would have to prove this of course. It is very unlikily we will receive the bills for the Iraq/Afganistan war so we should be safe.
"By the way, any more news on what happens when Gordon Brown realises that we aren't going to get the money out of Iceland?"
It does not matter about the money in Iceland. The assets frozen by our Government belonging to Iceland is worth over 4 billion while our money in Iceland is only worth 3 billion. The ball is in our court.
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#218 oops .... just heard on Planet Rock news ..... Iceland to take the UK government to court for leaking info on an Icelandic bank which allegedly caused investors to withdraw money and put the bank in financial turmoil .... billions of compensation the banks lawyer was saying ... so i guess Gordy can kiss the money goodbye then.
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#215 oldnat
I hope you're right that someone will fund one - fieldwork around the 22nd would be ideal, but the Sunday papers may jump the gun and do one too early.
#217 oldnat
I missed that one, too - it certainly didn't seem to register with the media. It'll be interesting to see how much coverage the SNP one gets. If the conspiracy theories are right that "the London Establishment" want NuLab to win this one it may be very limited.
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Brian,
With the news that RBS is now majority owned by the UK tax payer and HBOS will have a reduced value for the Lloyds take over paints a grim picture for what was once touted as the core of the Scottish Financial Industry. Simple truth is all bankers got caught and now need the UK government to bail them out. I wonder how much worse than Iceland would Scotland be if it were independant with its two largest companies failing?
Time to be pragmatic, work on safeguarding jobs, stabilising the economy and that will take probably until the next election not just for the National Government of Britain but also until the Scottish Parliament goes to the polls.
The only good news is Sir Fred Goodwin has fallen on his sword, I hope he has the good grace to go without a huge golden parachute!
Hang on to your hats
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From Bloomberg
Story:Norway Offers $55.4 Billion Liquidity Boost to Commercial Banks
"Norway offered to swap as much as $55.4 billion in government bonds for commercial banks' mortgage debt, tracking government efforts worldwide to boost liquidity.
Norway's OBX Index, which comprises the largest companies traded in Oslo, declined on Oct. 10 to the lowest in more than three years, falling 8 percent. The index slumped 22 percent last week, the worst weekly drop since at least 2001.
Norwegians with investments in equity funds have lost as much as 100 billion kroner ($15.8 billion) since the end of June, Oslo- based Dagens Naeringsliv reported on Oct. 11, citing Nordea Bank AB Chief Economist Steinar Juel.
Domestic investors are taking their money out of banks or considering sending it abroad amid concern over the safety of deposits, the same paper reported on Oct. 9."
Intersting.
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I hate those who talk Scotlands economy down, and indeed talk Scotland down at every opportunity.
This is not a wise thing to do, especially when they are trying to score cheap political points (if there are any points), by continually telling Scotland what we can and cannot do.
I reject this, and I'm sure all the sensible, intelligent people of this country will be inclined to feel the same.
I reject this false union imposed on us 300 years ago. I reject this unequal union which takes all our resources and yet still claims to be subsidising us.
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Worste news of the day which I found totally unpalatable.
Sir Fred (The Shredder) Goodwin is expected to resign today with a pension allegedly worth 8.4 million.
He is apparently going to waive his payoff of 1.2 million (over and above pension rights)
How can someone who is responsible in part for the current crisis walk away with such huge amounts.
His life style is not going to suffer in the current economic climate unlike those at the lower end of the food chain from whom his vast pension is probably originally sourced.
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#224
Yes... sad to say that the lack of confidence that is one of the main consequences of the policies pursued by Messrs Brown and Bush is now infecting countries as solid as Norway.
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In these bleak times, it is most enjoyable to at least see the entire nationalist movement self-destruct (#225, I can feel your total torment even from here).
Their much-hated Gordon 'he's not a True Scottish Patriot' Brown rescues our floundering financial flagships with funds that Salmond would have no chance of raising on his own;
Salmond is like a baby deer caught in the headlights and is now all-but mute, save a weak bleat about how only he would be somehow able to save Scotland, but only if he had full fiscal powers (although he doesn't actually reveal this solution to the global financial crisis that no-one, anywhere else, has thought of).
The countries in Salmond's much-trumpeted 'Arc of Prosperity' have either all-but bankrupt or are faltering with mass withdrawals of major banks looking possible (for an 'economist', Salmond really doesn't know much about finance - although everyone outside Scottish Nationalism knew that already).
SNP MSPs are forced back to their tired, old and inevitably self-destructing anti-English rants about events of centuries ago ("Mary Queen of Scots was an iconic historical Scots figure and ultimately the victim of English plotting," Ms Grahame said. Oh dear!)
In #221, we have a nationalist rejoicing that UK assets (that would be council salaries, pensions, savings etc) may be seized by the Icelandic government, just because it might damage the unionist PM.
In #217 and #222, the conspiracies are again out in force (always a strong sign of panic among the nat ranks).
Like I say, in days like these, it's good to still be able to smile!
I'm now just going to sit back and watch the continuing nationalist implosion.
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Thanks Hugh in Edinburgh, I was beginning to get very depressed by all the negativity around ,not least from the Scottish media, and you have just brought a big smile to my face!
C'mon wee Scotland!
http://tiny.cc/Wau6L
Just for last years financial news!
Seems like this great Chancellor of ours should have seen this coming for the UK and the USA
Gee! Don't illegal wars cost a lot of lives and a lot of money?
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226. I can't believe some of the bonuses these chiefs are getting after their company has failed.
How bad to you have to have performed before your bonus is withheld??
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#228, It is the whole Westminster system, and Gordons government which is imploding.
It is pathetic how blinkered to reality the unionists are. No, it's actually very sad.
We have no power to change the rules, tax, interest rates, or anything else, at the moment, which could help minimise the effects of the bungling economic disasters which are emerging from the South East.
The key words are "at the moment".
This will change when the harsh economic realities of being dragged down by the Good Ship Great Britain with Westminster at the helm.
It is long overdue that Scotland takes control of itself, so that we can take any course of action that needs to be taken to protect Scotlands interests.
This is sadly lacking at the moment, as Westminster would gladly sell Scotlands future to the highest bidder (or even the lowest bidder), just to keep the little englanders and the unionists happy.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#228 Reluctant-Expat
Absolute garbage. As Scotland has no fiscal autonomy there is simply no telling of what could, would or should have happened.
The only real political ramification of this will be forcing through the Lloyds TSB takeover of HBOS out of spite, which will not be soon forgotten.
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#230 Reluctant-Expat
For once, a sensible posting. So much for light-touch regulation.
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#229 DisgustedDorothy: I almost wept with nostalgia. "C'mon wee Scotland!" My mind floated back to the 50s and a great wee film with Bill Travers called "Geordie."
It's the story of a puny wee Highland lad, sick of being "Wee Geordie," who took a postal bodybuilding course, grew to 6ft6ins and started throwing hammers around the heather.
Stereotypical English Olympic officials arrive to watch, Geordie is selected, defies an English (of course) ban on wearing his kilt, and at the Games his first two throws are disastrous fouls. The English sneer.
I can't remember the actress's name, but she was everything a woman should be in my childish fantasy. She shouts from the crowd (and is heard!) "C'mon my wee Geordie."
Geordie breaks the Olympic Record, and we all go home with a great feeling. Scotland showed 'em!
A lovely little fantasy for all the family. Most people grow up and recognise that. But there are many on this blog who seem content to wallow in this nostalgic vision. I don't know whether to laugh or cry.
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#230 You actually say something most of us would agree with .
#228 But look like a t*t on this one. I am not rejoicing at what i said in 221. Did you not notice that Gordy used an anti terrorist law to stop a friendly country in its tracks to try and recover funds invested there. Somehow i dont think Iceland or any country would find that the correct thing to do. The whole point here is that people from within the Banking sector or the government are releasing info to the media and starting a panic sell within various financial institutions. So do you think that is lawful ? I daresay Iceland are only trying to protect their own interests.
Now tell me ... are you reluctant expat because you are english and forced to live in scotland because nobody liked you there .....or are you scottish and couldnt bare to be controlled by an SNP government ??
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# 122 Brigadierjohn
Sorry to harp on about this but I still believe that if a person could not be bothered to vote then their lack of voting should not count to either side no matter how important the reason for voting is.
# 130 Brigadierjohn
'Even more interesting is: why would anyone be logging, or even remembering, my posts? Damned if I can remember them.'
Sadly, I have the same problem.
# 134 Brigadierjohn
I agree 100%
# 225 Hughedinburgh
I agree.
Can someone remind me who was the Chancellor of the Exchequer who encouraged the banks to invest all this money in the past which led to toxic debts?
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Alex? Alex who?
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#232 Anglosaxophone
Hello, newbie. Rather a good parody of Anglophone, but needs to be a little more irate to ring true.
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#237 gedguy2: Stick to your guns. Your view is as good as mine. If I'm dragged into something I don't like, because of voter apathy or stupidity, I think I have the wherewithal to get out to Cyprus or suchlike. Assuming (huge assumption) that I can sell my house for a decent price!
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231/233. But Salmond claims he has 'The Answer'!
Why doesn't he just share it with us all and astound us with his economic genius? He's being exceedingly selfish having the solution to this global financial crisis, which is causing misery to millions and millions, and keeping it just to himself.
Hang on......surely......no!.......he.....he wouldn't be making it all up.......would he?
(They are now allowing Lloyds to take over HBOS "out of spite", is it? - I do love those conspiracies.)
232. And another nationalist loses the plot.
236. Okay, so rabbiehippo would gladly let the Icelandic Govt seize all UK assets, without any guarantee of refunds, in direct contravention of agreements on financial security.
Yes, Iceland are protecting their interests just as GB is doing with UK interests. Do you not grasp that?
Your nationalist solution would mean that thousands of the UK's public sector workers would not be paid this month and savers and pensioners would not know when all of their money would be refunded, if ever......Yep, that's much better than using the law to seize illegally-held funds. Wonderful.
Your post 221 still looks like rejoicing to me, and probably everyone else who reads it.
That's post 221, written by a nationalist, for those that missed it. Is he gloating or not? Discuss.
Now then. Do any other nationalists want to share their absurd, ignorant and irrational ranting with the world?
Maybe some more abuse for those of us that do not agree with your blinkered, highly flawed and ill-informed ideology?
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237. Gedguy2,
And just how did Brown "encourage" the banks to invest in the US mortgage market?
Did he also play a part in all the other banks, from around the world, who also invested in the US mortgage market?
(I must admit to the faintest of suspicions that you haven't a blessed clue what you are talking about!)
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#239 Brownedov
Sorry to be so innocuous. Not innocuous enough for someone, though. I tried to put this post on the new thread, without any alterations, but it has been rejected there. Should I be surprised?
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Yes but who advised the councils to invest the money in all these places. Gordon will save the day tan tan ta ...diddle dee..tan tan tan tan...diddlee ay o ...what a hero .. reminds me of a character in Viz more like.....8 Ace!!
Anyway i cant sit her squabbling all day i have to go get all the money stuffed under my mattress and invest it in Kleenex ... since Labour will be buying lots of there product after the next to elections ! Buy Buy Buy Bye haha ..
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228. Reluctant-Expat wrote:
241. Reluctant-Expat wrote:
I suggest you see a phsyciatrist as there is something wrong with your brain to be so happy about the bankings troubles and all you can think of is how you can use it to run down the nats.
You should be looking at the bigger picture at how gordon brown and new labour are systematicaly running down scotland.
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Just up in the attic looking at the gold i bought from knock of gordon.... got a good price ! And it dawned on me .... Reluctant Expat ... i had a wee feeling you were a Nationalist plant here to stir it up ... and then it dawned on me .... you might be a political blog fluffer !!! A fluffer (for those who might not be to informed of smutty matters ) is a person in the adult 'film' industry who has to assist a male actor when hes not maintaining an election ... so i figured you were purely here to liven up the action now and again . I suspect your trying your hardest to wind people up but it doesnt seem to work. So from henceforth i will try and ignore your posts and maybe have more of a life in the real world ... cheers
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245. Give it a rest for once.
Read my posts thoroughly before you overreact in your inevitable, predictable, tedious and vainglorious nationalist way.
Mmm?
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246. Talking of "predictable"!
When a nationalist is against the ropes and being shown up as a fool......he will inevitably resort to insults.
Salmond does it every week in Holyrood so, of course, you have to expect his band of sycophants to follow suit.
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248 was that an insult ... nope ... god you really have a huge bee in your bonnet... i think you need to go outside for a bit .... leave the pc for a while, go out and potter about in the garden for a while.... i dont insult anyone on here that doesnt deserve it.... only the people who really have the me me me attitude ... no wonder labour are going down hill if your fighting their cause...
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#243 Anglosaxophone
All sides of the argument can be spiteful at times, but only occasionally resort to referral wars, which generally prove self-defeating.
Your post on this thread looks within the house rules to me. The other is still in mod purgatory and may yet be accepted.
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#245 vote_nat
#249 rabbiehippo
You're right, but be fair - it must be a pretty soul-destroying job. Note that our expatriate pen-friend has made all his posts this month during Monday-Friday office hours.
I wonder if the poster post carries BUPA cover?
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Expat #228 - I wouldn't bet on a 'nationalist implosion' just look at the polling in and betting on Glenrothes!
Also bear in mind SNP Conference starts soon (expect a further bounce after it), and that the markets appear to have returned to something approaching sanity.
Salmond routinely wipes the floor with his opponents at Holyrood, as Brian usually reports. Any pretence otherwise is frankly deluded.
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#250 Brownedov
I see that my #2 on the new thread has been tossed out, even though my #232 of this thread has not been and even though they are completely identical.
Interesting, at least. I shan't bother about it, however. I understand the nature of the environment in which we are attempting to exercise freedom of expression here. As this forum belongs to the Establishment which one is seeking to subvert, even if it is only by means of playing by the rules, these are the Estblishment's rules. Let us not forget the words of that fine old British anthem:
Rule Britannia, Britannia waives the rules.
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#253 Anglosaxophone
Yes - not good but I can't say I've seen exactly that before. I suppose they could argue if it was OK on one thread it was off-topic on the other. Alternatively they could argue that one or the other was spam, so the house rules offer plenty of scope for creative moderation.
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