The lipstick strategy
A standard political wheeze is to imply that your opponents embody the characteristics of others or are in some way masking their true thoughts.
Here in Manchester at the Labour conference we may be witnessing a new - or, rather, renewed - version of the tactic.
The basic format is familiar. As witness Dave Anderson, the MP for Blaydon, who asked delegates to name the difference between David Cameron and Margaret Thatcher.
The answer? Lipstick.
But Scottish Labour frontbenchers are now adapting the strategy. The SNP, they suggest, resemble the Tories.
Indeed, Sarah Boyack professed to find the similarities "startling".
And those were? "They both say anything to anyone to get elected, but neither can be trusted to actually do what needs to be done."
Not, you might think, characteristics which are confined to the pair of parties in question. However, Iain Gray went further.
Cap dusting
He told delegates that the SNP was advancing cuts in public services which mirrored those he said were intended by the Tories at Westminster.
Further still. He suggested the Nationalists were aching for a Conservative victory in the next UK General Election.
He depicted them as the servile heralds of the Tories, "dusting off their doorman's cap" to usher David Cameron into Downing Street.
We have, of course, heard this before. Indeed, Mr Gray revisited the argument that, by voting against Labour in a confidence motion in 1979, the SNP introduced Margaret Thatcher to power.
Alex Salmond offered fuel for the flames by suggesting in an interview that Scotland had not minded Mrs T's economic approach - so much as the social impact.
But it would appear that, with an eye on Glenrothes and other contests ahead, Labour is reviving the strategy.
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Iain Gray is incredibly embaressing. Cuts in public services are sensible, why pay more during times you are already struggling? Plus, the Nationalists have done more to attack the rich. LIT alone attacks the rich because it is the rich who are paying for the poor. What does Labour do? Tax the poor to allow the rich to get richer? They make no sense personally. Labour have lost their roots, they are all over the place.
Ah Gray has brought back 'vote Labour, keep the Tories out' slogen. Didn't Scotland continue to suffer under the Tories despite our MP's mainly supporting Labour? Labour had the chance to threaten the break up of the Union they chose the Union over the Scottish people. The Nationalists on the otherhand will jump at the chance of loosing the Union and if the Tories are seriose about keeping the Union then I expect the Tories to treat Scotland better while the Nationalists are strong here.
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Presumably Mr Gray gave his speech during a break from his role as doorman for London Labour.
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Is that really the best that Iain Gray and his cronies can manage.
We have had the "tartan tory" guff time and again. I'm afraid it wont really wash with the electorate any more, lets face it Nu Labour has been an imitation of "thatcherisim" and we have had a generation of it.
Even Tony Blair confessed to admiring her and good old GB is thinking about giving the poor old sod a state funeral.
Bring on the Glenrothes by election.
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Same old springs to mind
This coming from a party that promised the earth to win votes, had to get in bed with the LibDems to get their policies through, and yet what did Labour really do when it got power - Yes you are correct - A big fat zero - and when we get a new wave of concencus politics, they want to take their ball away cause they're no playing
Wake up Labour and smell the coffee, you have had your time and you just can't get to grip with what being in opposition really means
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"I also admire the fact that she is a conviction politician... I am a conviction politician like her."
Gordon Brown - September 2007
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Like being savaged by a dead sheep, in the words of old eyebrows.
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Here we go again. Labour giving out that same old 'tartan tory' tripe again. That slanderous statement is just as outdated as 'New Labour'. You can tell that a party is in trouble when it stops attacking their opponents policies and reverts to ridiculous rhetoric. R.I.P. the Labour party.
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The whole "SNP brought in Thatcher" line is laughable. Yes the SNP may have helped deliver the coup de grace to the Callaghan government but that is beside the point. Callaghan didn't have to call a GE until November 1979 but there is no way that he could have lasted that long. People forget that the day after that confidence vote, the Liberal's David Alton won a by-election in Liverpool and had he taken his seat in that parliament then Callaghan wouldn't have had any majority at all. Had the government continued into the summer there would have been another by-election in Manchester Central which the Liberals could have won further stacking the numbers against Labour. In any case, the winter of discontent had turned the national mood decisively in favour of the Tories and anything Labour wouldn't have made any difference as Callaghan himself later admitted. Whatever the SNP did in that vote, Thatcher was going to become PM in 1979, whether it was May or November is irrelevant, and the people responsible for putting her there were the Labour Party and the trade unions. I suspect that Labour know this to be true and that's why they scapegoat the SNP.
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Brian says...
A standard political wheeze is to imply that your opponents embody the characteristics of others or are in some way masking their true thoughts.
And to prove he point up pops #3..
I'm afraid it wont really wash with the electorate any more, lets face it Nu Labour has been an imitation of "thatcherisim" and we have had a generation of it.
And it's not just the nats who are using the years of well-drilled One-minute hates against the Tories to turn people off 'Nu-Labour'. A lot of old Labour are blaming Nu Labour's disastrous mismanagement of the economy and brutal assault on civil liberties not as being standard Labour fare but policy errors 'borrowed' from Thatcher. Tory-lite.
They'll have you believe the Labour government has failed not because it's a Labour government and that's what they always do. Nope. It's because it was too right wing.
Laughable eh?
Double national debt. 100 new stealth taxes. Employ one million extra civil servants on the tax-payers payroll and apparently it's too right wing. How much more left wing can you get? Quadruple national debt? Introduce 200 stealth taxes? 'Employ' two million extra civil servants?
I wouldn't worry about the parallels this government would draw with anybody. They invite too much comparison with Jim Callaghan and the IMF crisis of 1976 themselves. Not to mention misleading us and selling us all down the river to our European overlords. Again.
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The same old rubbish. Let's recap:
1) All parties make promises in their manifesto based on the assumption that they will be a majority government, not a minority one.
2) Manifestos are supposed to lay out a party's intentions for the entire 4 year period.
The SNP are so far only just over a year into a 4-year term of minority government. Many of their policies became unfeasible when their attempt to get the Edinburgh Trams (aka Project White Elephant) scheme cancelled was voted down by the rest of the Parliament - in fact, their decision to honour this vote (when they could have just said "well we're still going to block it") was the first signs of how much more mature this SNP Government would be, compared to the previous two Laboural Democrat terms.
Which party has allowed the rich to get even more rich than the Tories had dared imagine? Labour. Who has the ability to put a stop to the ridiculous profits being made by energy companies at the public's expense? Labour. Who has completely bottled out of doing so, for fear of a backlash from their beloved foreign investors? Labour.
Was it not Thatcher herself who recently said her biggest achievement was the creation of New Labour? Iain Gray, it's time to go back to school... As a pupil.
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R.I.P. the Labour party.
Can we have a flat gravestone please so that we can all dance on it.
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Speaking as one who knew Iain Gray well during my mispent youth as a Labour Party member during the Dark Days of Thatcher,I well recall that while others of us were acting to attempt to stop the close-down of Scottish Industry,he was always more concerned with wittering on about Nicaragua,Mozambique or one of the orther Third World Causes of the Week.The Master of the "Pious Motion ",he was an incredibly dull speaker then too.
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Sad little numpty ,whats his name is?. If he was a Scottish Politician that was the leader of a political party, that wasnt run by Westmonster, I probably would have remembered his name.
Theres nothing quite so bad/sad as a Scot who betrays his people, by being subservant to a foreign nation purely to advance his career. My mind goes back to the Vichy French, who not only served the Nazi Party, they actually arrested their own people to be handed across to the SS/Gestapo for torture and eventual death. Traitor!!!!!
Tell us Mr Numpty, where were you when your London master connived to have Scotlands oldest bank taken over by Lloyds TSB.
Oh thats right, your masters didnt feel the need to bother telling such an underling.
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According to Iain Gray, MSP in his conference speech today the SNP are "Tartan Tories".
According to Eric Joyce, MP in an article in the Labour journal Progress two weeks ago the SNP are "Scottish Socialists".
Both characterisations cannot be right, but this speech and this article were simply parroted by BBC Scotland as if repeating such stories make them true.
In the United States political journalists compare the politicians' rhetoric with the actual political records. This simple method allows political journalists to correctly frame news stories.
When you do that you realise that you have are Labour politicians lying about the opposition, in this instance the SNP, because they have nothing positive to say about their own party.
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At the labour conference the spokespeople are lecturing to the people that already are labour party supporters. The speakers would be better off speaking to the electorate in general about what they will do to help them, rather than preaching to the converted. Surely someone at the conference can stand out from the crowd and call for a general election. Labour would not win the election right now by waiting any longer would surely delay the inevitable.
Give the electorate what they want and let him fall on his sword. After the election in Glenrothes, which they will probably lose, the call will get even greater.
I dont even think that David Cameron would make e very good PM either as he just seems to stand back and let gordon Brown put his foot in it.
I would love to know what he would do to help the economy right now
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U9461192,
Surely it would be more appropriate to place a copy of the Heart of Midlothian on the grave so we can all legally spit on it.
Nowt but a bunch of Numpties.
When are this shower going to realise that the majority of Scots are in fact Patriots. Many occupying foreign governments have found out to their disadvantage, that passionate patriots cannot be broken or disuaded from their goal of taking their country back.
We dont actually hate the people of the other two nations in the un united kingdoms. As a matter of fact we all have very good friends from the other two nations that wll carry on no matter when Scotland takes it Independence. We just choose to have Scottish People running all Scottish Affairs on their own. It is as simple as that and is a noble goal for all the Nations of the World.
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Not a clever strategy to rely on rhetoric the world and his dug knows to be untrue.
Desperate stuff - attempting to fabricate parallels between the SNP and Thatcher the week after Brown pays personal homage to her AGAIN!
Is Iain Gray even capable of delivering a credible speech??!!
Although we can be sure the party hacks loved it!
One shudders to think how long he would last in government!!
Fortunately, we'll never need to know!
Roll over Labour. Roll on Glenrothes.
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what is the new labour in the scottish parliaments manifesto, they have ditched their old one from 2007 and now are waiting on the scottish conservatives to issue a new one so that they can copy the ideas.
the scottish electorate know that westminster labour deliberatly cut the inflation increase in the block grant so that the SNP could not fufil their manifesto pledges.
is 1.8 per cent average over 3 years adequete, when inflation is at 5 per cent per year, it is a massive cut to the scottish goverments budget and it has been inflicted on scotland by westminsters new labour spite that they lost the 2007 scottish parliamentary election.
the inflation cut in the scottish parliaments budget is a cut in the moneys due to the scottish economy, and will work out as a massive 3 billion at present day inflation rates over the three years.
further more the unionist parties in the scottish parliament ganged up on the SNP, so that SNP could not stop edinburghs folly - the tram system, so that the SNP did not have the 560 million pounds availiable to implement pledges, and only now are we starting to see the full implications of something that the majority of edinburghs residents did not want, but the lab - lib council wanted as a status symbol.
the new labour experiment has failed the electorate, as the electorate have now woken up at last to the spin and miss handling of the GB economy.
tony blairs greatest atribute was that he could convince you that he could make a dead horse run again and gordon no matter what he says, does not sound convivcing.
you only have to look at gordons attemt to ressurect himself over the last year or so, i will listen, i have made mistakes. soundbites only. gordon you could not convince us that you could make a live horse run.
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#9
You're trying to claim that this Labour Government hasn't been a right-wing government in disguise, but if the facts you mention are the work of a left-wing Government, then how has the gap between the richest and poorest 1% continued to increase under New Labour far more rapidly than it did under the Tories? The point of a left-wing Government is to redistribute wealth from the rich to the poor - this version of Labour has been less Robin Hood and more Robin Usblind (excuse the awful pun).
Doubling the national debt certainly sounds like the handiwork of a left-wing government, yes; but how have they managed to double the national debt? By paying out vast amounts of money to private companies willy-nilly in PFI schemes and doomed-to-fail projects of titanic (and Titanic) proportions, allowing all our taxes to be swallowed up not for improving public services, but to fill up the coffers of an elite few. Call me a cynic, but I've always thought their more leftist policies were nothing more than a smokescreen behind which they could pander to the Big Boys.
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A couple of choice morsels from the Beeb report of the aptly named Mr Gray's speech:
And he claimed the SNP was "working actively" to see David Cameron become the next prime minister, and were using the Scottish Parliament to "let Scotland down, when we know we could use it to raise Scotland up."
Hmm, I think forces somewhat closer to Mr Gray will be responsible for Cameron being the next PM! And, gosh yes, now you mention it I do remember how Labour "raised Scotland up" over the last decade, ahem. Accuracy: 0/10. Brass neck: 10/10.
"When times are difficult people and parties let their true colours show."
Let's reflect on the behaviour of certain factions of the Labour party over the difficult times of the last year or so...true colours indeed Mr Gray.
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The main reason not one of the Westmonster controlled political parties can get to grip with our SNP is quite simple.
The SNP is a rainbow party, of varying peoples who are united in their determination to rid this country from rule by a foreign nation.
The SNP comprise of Socialists, Social Democrats, Conservatives, Liberals and every other political persuasion. It also has Catholics, Protestants, Muslims, Seik, Jewish and the many many religous beliefs.
The best way to describe the SNP would probably be that like Mandelas Rainbow Alliance representing all of the people of Scotland no matter what their beliefs are, with one exception. They must believe that Scots can do a better job, running their own affairs in their own Nation. They should believe in the right of all Scots to fullfill their potential, and rights to respect every point of view.
The SNP believe that Scottish Pensioners, who have done their bit, are given the respect and care that they deserve.
Lets face it, Alex Salmond and his team have displayed what is possible, and they have done that under the most difficult position.
They have the entire UK System focussed on destroying the SNP. Not just because they fear Independance. No its more that the SNP is showing them up now, but more dangerous to them, it is showing up the entire UK political system, dominated by Two Parties who simply play musical chairs every few years. You know, the take it or leave it syndrome.
Remember Oliver Twist when he asked for more food. More,More More, how dare you want more after all they are the elite class that has our political system more a business for them than the People. I seem to remember that these ratbags were elected to serve the people, by the people.
Not good enough now.
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I notice a distinct lack of pro-Labour posts so far for this blog. Presumably they're all herded at the Labour conference being deluded en masse that they actually have a chance of winning Glenrothes, the next general election and the next Holyrood election.
I genuinely though that Andy Kerr would be the best man to completely destroy "Scottish" Labour but it seems that Iain Gray's approach of boring the electorate into voting SNP with his unionist scaremongering lies is going to be far more effective (though alas less entertaining) than Kerr's bitter vitriolic rants.
If Cathy Jamieson had won I think a minor "Scottish" Labour renaissance might have been on the cards but the Labour supporters have once again proven their lack of ambition and vision by voting for another suited nothing to lead them further towards oblivion.
Have a nice conference guys!
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R comment by northy
I agree totally
Bring on a general election and let Gordon Brown know what his fellow countryment think of him amd his party.
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There is a very simple reason why there are no pro-Labour posts on this blog, the Labour party hacks won't leave the conference until 5 and are the only people left in the country who believe they are 'listening and getting on with the job, job job and the listening of the job' etc.
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the new labour in the scottish parliament are running about like headless chickens trying to work out how to stop the SNP .
could it be that it would have helped if they had listened to what the majority of the population wanted, worked for what is best for scotland, stop refering to westminster on what they are allowed to do and say and finaly cut out the slease in their party.
why was the scottish parliament set up, to try and head of the SNPs call for independence and so that westminster could still control scotland via their puppets.
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Isn't it interesting how none of the two dozen SNP supporters posting comments above have addressed Iain Gray's actual point: that the SNP want the Tories to win the UK General Election.
I've seen the argument made by SNP supporters here and on other blogs - essentially, that the election of a Tory government in the UK will drive more Scots to support independence.
So, let's hear from the SNP contributors, and ideally from their MSPs as well: would you or would you not prefer a Conservative victory in the next General Election ?
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I don't care either way, I have faith that the SNP and the Scottish public will deliver independence or devolution plus regardless of who sits in Westmonsterer!
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Just like Wendy last year ... she turned out to be a roaring success! Thats it Iain what the people want is more divisive politics based on "its either us or those b*st*rds". Well done
I wonder whose turn it will be to play Holyrood Leader next year?
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#26.
It depends. If Labour were in power then they no longer can mess up, how will the Nationalists make gains when Labour are no longer responsible? It'll be far more difficult for the Nationalists to encourage Labour voters to vote for them for a change.
A Tory Government will almost immedaitly create a clear divide between Scotland and England. The last time they were in power, Scottish Nationalism was highest ever but to the more extreme, it was pretty much hating the English. End of. I am not suggesting the SNP were racist because Labour were the main party then and many people supported Labour instead of the Nationalists. If the Tories carry on with Thatcher-style of Government then they will push Scotland outside of the Union and we will never go back.
Of course. Only if the Tories continue with typical Thatcher policies. I expect them to be far more clever, if they love the Union then we will see the better side of them. Perhaps allow Scotland to govern herself more freely to aviod disputes but within the Union.
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"So, let's hear from the SNP contributors, and ideally from their MSPs as well: would you or would you not prefer a Conservative victory in the next General Election ?"
In a word: yes.
There are obviously two sides to this coin though...
Purely in terms of political gain, it's absolute electoral dynamite for the SNP. The SNP are getting a double bounce from having dispelled any notion of apocalypse happening under an SNP government and actually delivering ambitious Scottish solutions to Scottish problems. Add to that disillusioned Labour voters are obviously far more likely to vote SNP than Conservative in Scotland so, at present, the more successful the Tories, the more successful the SNP. Don't for one second try and construe them as being one in the same because the only thing they have in common is that they gain where Labour loses.
The other side of the coin is of course the reality of a Tory government. We are already insulated to some extent from interference from Westminster with devolution and hopefully more so when the Calman commission inevitably recommends more power for Hollyrood.
The Tories are going to have at most 2 or 3 MPs from Scotland giving them almost zero mandate to impose London-centric policies on us. This is going to be a very compelling argument for a Yes vote in the 2011 referendum. This is particularly potent when you consider that Labour are in such a mess that there's going to be at least 10 years of Tory government at Westminster.
Am I happy to see the English endure 10 years of Tory rule to achieve Scottish independence? Most definitely. Maybe the threat of a unending Tory reign might actually achieve a Lib/Lab alliance and the overhaul of their antiquated parliamentary and voting systems. Everyone's a winner in the end.
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#26 archie
I think you're missing the point.
The polls are universally showing that the voters in England have moved massively away from Labour. Without some cataclysmic occurrence, the Tories will control the UK Parliament, whatever happens in Scotland.
Simultaneously, polls in Scotland show us as the only part of the UK where the Tories are not making significant gains (though due to the fptp electoral system for Westminster, which Labour continues to support, the Tories will probably gain 2 or 3 seats.)
The English are perfectly entitled to elect whatever Government they choose.
Under these circumstances, our interests are likely to be best met by a large number of pro-independence MPs, who can extract more concessions than the rump of Labour can provide.
In any case, Labour will only recover in Scotland, if it breaks from the "Middle England" orientated New Labour approach. Their tragedy is that whatever they adopt to maximise support in England haemorrages votes in Scotland, and vice-versa.
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#26 archie_f
Ah, that was his point! I had dismissed it as a childish jibe. But since you ask it seems likely that one of three things will happen at the next GE:
1. Tory majority, albeit with nothing close to a mandate from Scotland.
2. Tories win in England and are largest party, but are denied a UK majority by SNP/Labour MPs from Scotland.
3. Tories win narrowly in England, but Labour recover enough to edge the Tories out as the largest party, thanks largely to their Scottish MPs.
Result 1 would be interesting north of the border. I can't see Scotland stomaching it too well. Whether that drives people to the SNP or Labour, who knows?
Results 2 and 3 would be interesting south of the border. I can just imagine the Daily Mail headlines! Pitchforks at the ready John Bull!
What would I prefer? (I'm not an SNP member or MSP I'm happy to say!) Probably either of 2 or 3, if only in the vain hope that some sort of mature consensus politics would emerge, perhaps even with the LibDems being smart enough to get PR introduced (now I've really lost it!).
What are your views archie_f? Which would you prefer?
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The only reason this board has become a SNP love-fest is that you nats have shown yourselves up for what you really are:
Immature, ill-informed, desperate, obsessed and blinkered children making a spectacle of yourselves with your absolute refusal to face facts and reality.
Let's examine some nationalist beliefs and characteristics:
a) The HBOS takeover was apparently a 'UK/English conspiracy to destroy Scottish nationalism' (despite a total lack of any evidence to back yourselves up) and not a government rescue of a struggling bank that didn't involve another unpopular nationalisation which would burden the taxpayer with yet more billions of debt;
b) An article by a US think-tank is somehow 'proof of a UK/US international conspiracy to destroy Scottish nationalism';
c) Most nats permanently reject widely-accepted official oil figures and believe the truth is being covered by yet another international conspiracy of several govts, multinational oil companies etc. to destroy Scottish nationalism;
d) Most nats refuse to accept Scottish Government accounts, even when they are released and approved by the SNP, instead believing without any sign of doubt or question, the work of a much-discredited amateur (ie. 'The Great Deception). Of course, this is all also proof of a conspiracy to destroy Scottish nationalism......and I could go on.
The reason why there's so few non-nat people on here?
What do you think?
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Sitting as "undecided" on full independence, I wonder what Iain Gray is actually trying to achieve here.
Instead of attacking the SNP in a personal manner - which it is in some respects - why does he not target their policies? The SNP have delivered some changes, but have also failed (so far perhaps?) to implement others.
Saying that the SNP are "Tories" is a bit rich, considerign that Labour up in Scotland - especially at Council level - have continued Conservative policies. PFI is a classic example.
On the other hand, a swift kicking at an election is what Labour needs. It gets rid of a lot of chocolate kettles and might for once bring through some real talent that appeals to voters.
The SNP managed this. Look at the disunity only a few years ago. They have managed to create unity - at least publicly. Perhaps that is the only thing they have in common with the Tories.
The SNP may actually have more seats than the Lib Dems in Westminster after the next election, and the (likely) Conservative Government will probably come to an agreement with the Scottish Government.
Rather than going for full indepence, why not allow the Scottish Government far more fiscal authority and see if they really can operate within a local budget?
The SNP say they are capable as Government, so why not do things one step at a time?
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O' la..la.. The arch-nat have broken rank and are now! in open war fare with each other...No two can agree with one-another.
Only 6 turned up to support their push for Glenrothes......
Where on earth did AS get that fig... from.. 100Bn....The dough-man is missing some main ingredients........
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All of the above scenarios are based on an assumption that the good ship SNP will sail on smoothly through calm waters.
I think there are some biggish bills in the post. And the thought occurs: what if future financial plans are based on advice from the man - Alex's own advisor - whose type have been inconveniently branded "spivs and speculators" by the FM himself?
The SNP will have done incredibly well and deserving great praise if they can get through to the next Westminster election without serious splits in their ranks or the whiff of wrongdoing. I think they might be the first government ever, anywhere, to achieve this.
A number of chickens are being counted, and win-win situations chuckled over on this blog. This may be premature. But who knows? Even the stodgy Mr Gray might look like a safe pair of hands when it's votes being counted. Not that I'm wishing for it.
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"The reason why there's so few non-nat people on here?
What do you think?"
I think it's because unionists are happy to gloat when they have the upper hand but when public opinion turns against them they've no real conviction in their beliefs to guide them through bad times. That's why nationalism will never go away until independence is achieved and why unionism will always be the home of short-sighted and unambitious people who don't have the vision to see beyond the status quo.
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#33 Expat
I think you sometimes make reasonable debating points, but not in that post.
You are a very silly boy, and should go straight to the Naughty Step.
The grown-ups will listen to you, once you're sensible.
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Many of their policies became unfeasible when their attempt to get the Edinburgh Trams (aka Project White Elephant) scheme cancelled was voted down by the rest of the Parliament - in fact, their decision to honour this vote (when they could have just said "well we're still going to block it") was the first signs of how much more mature this SNP Government would be
The SNP policy to vote down the toytown train set for Edinburgh was one of the the best ideas they had. Their willingness to 'honour' the vote which effectively meant squandering a billion quid to duplicate an existing railway line that already runs within half a mile of the airport just showed me how little principle they had.
The Edinburgh tram is a total waste of money. I have no idea why so many Labour/Lib/Tory MSPs support it except possibly the Edinburgh contingent are jealous of the Glasgow metro.
All Edinburgh airport needs is a few slabs and bags of cement thrown alongside the track at the top of the runway on the line to Dunfermline and voila airport connected to the mainline for next to nothing. It is their willingness to squander money on the toytown tram that marks the SNP out as no better than Labour.
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Oh dear, reluctant-expat. Did you have a bad day? Where have you got all these conspiracy theories from? Just because some nats may believe them does not mean that ALL nats think that way. After all there are many labour supporters who believe in the Loch Ness Monster (which of course is true) but that does not mean that most labour supporters believe in it.
Come on now, stop this ridiculous stance and get on with a proper debate.
And as to the oil statement, remember that there were Scottish Nationalists long before we knew about oil in the north sea.
Also, leave the poor Americans out of this, they have enough problems without you trying to drag them into what is essentially a local disagreement.
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To reply to several of the reposts to the "tartan Tories" jibe.
Yes, here we go again, but untill the SNP properly explain why, for example, they are making the cuts to education services in Renfrewshire, many Labour party supporters will simply come back to the fold for the next election.
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Iain Gray seems to have been well trained in the Scottish labour school of political argument, i.e. shoot of a stream of criticism at your opponents, mention the word Tory "which will frighten the voters " as often as you can , and don't say anything about your policy in case it comes back to haunt you. Now that he's had his moment of glory ,he can get back to licking Brown's shoes and pretending that he gets to play with the big boys in London. At least he doesn't appear to have ever been employed by Glasgow city council like so many high rankers in the Labour party. So which comes first, job with a Labour council, or membership of the party ?
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39. At 6:40pm on 22 Sep 2008, U9461192,
the SNP could not block the edinburgh trams as they were a minority goverment.
all they could do was say that no more money would be forthcomming if the trams went over budget.
i am an edinburgh resident and i consider that i was not asked if i wanted the trams.
the lab - lib in the scottish parliament allowed a fixed referndum to be put to the edinburgh residents as to the options of trams or congestion charges because they knew that if they asked them seperately they would have both been rejected.
that is new labours idea of democracy.
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question to I.Gray .when did A.Salmond last invite M.Thatcher to Bute House.
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You cannot portray Thatcher and the Tories as bad, then try and link them to the SNP when their own leader Brown is full of praise for her and gets his picture taken with her at No.10.
More ludicrous stuff from Labour ! They look as if they have simply ran out of idea's.
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Aye that attack was really blistering. Blisteringly obvious they've lost all touch with reality. After 11 years in power the best they can do is scaremonger, then again they would hardly be able to point to their record whilst in office.
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iain gray said that new labour would raise up scotland, but with all the hot air he spouts, he is more liable to blow up scotland.
how soon before they rename the party to guess what !,
THE CONSERVATIVE LABOUR PARTY.
goodby to new labour it was not nice knowing you.
hello to THE CONSERVATIVE LABOUR PARTY its not nice to get to know you.
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gordon brown had a very good reason for inviting maggie thatcher to downing street as she was required to write his manifesto.
gordon also invited maggie thatcher to chequers so that she could write iain grays manifesto.
when gordon looked at the manifestos that maggie had written, it was just a load of scribles, hence his policies follow suit, not worth the paper they are written on.
who hero worships maggie - gordon brown.
whos just like maggie - gordon brown.
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Cuts in public services aren't sensible if you have kids in school or old people in care.
Despite election promises to the contrary, primary school class sizes are up from 23 to 29 here in East Lothian since the SNP got in to power in Holyrood and in the council.
It is just like having the tories in power back in the 80s. Fight the Cuts !
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I'm keen to describe the speech by Ian Gray in positive non partisan terms, but alas I'm struggling to compliment him in any way at all.
His speech was truly a monument to the art of the dull delivery. I wonder if he is aware just how dour and monotonous he indeed sounds? A replicant of Gordon Brown it seems in many ways, and hardly inspiring in his delivery. As a voter, I'm keen to hear what Mr Gray has to say, but there is little of substance to his commentary, and thus he has spectacularly failed to captivate me and hence there will be no "X" beside his party representatives, courtesy of my hand.
I mean really, accusing all who consider a vote for one party (The Nats ) to be some sort of dark servants of another (The Tories) is as clumsy and pathetic an allegation as it is stupid and lacking in all that lends intellectual credibility. What could potentially have begun as an opportunity to establish his leadership and charismatic credentials to a country of floating voters, very quickly degenerated into a tiny fisted tantrum designed to appeal to the foaming mouthed delegates before him. I'm certain they would still have applauded with similar gusto if he had been throwing them stinking fish instead of his atrocious attempt at inspiration.
I might add that it is my hope that some within the Scottish Labour movement do indeed pay close attention to forums such as these. Hopefully they and their political chums might choose to see what I have to say, as listening does not seem to be a skill they possess. Mr Gray's accusatory dirge against all who dare to consider any option other than to vote Labour is disrespectful and unimaginative. Tired and boring attacks upon a rival political party of whatever hue are precisely one of the main reasons why so many have turned their backs on politics. His remarks propagate disinterest and he is one of many politicians responsible for the mistrust and resentment levelled against the political system. I had hoped he would have embraced the opportunity as newly established leader to offer something fresh to the electorate. Alas, his self serving speech is possibly indicative of deeper political character traits.
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#41 GRhino
When I worked in Renfrewshire education, I remember several occasions on which Labour delivered cuts to the education budget.
If you are advocating constant rises in the spending on all public services, how do you intend to re-allocate the Westminster Block Grant?
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HBOS chief executive Andy Hornby said that he did not know what position he would be offered in the new banking setup, could i suggest the redundant position for him.
why did HBOS a banking group employ a asda price chief executive, it does not make sense.
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It seems that all the labour party can do is critisise everyone else for their troubles. Are they all clones of each other spouting it "wisnae me" its all the fault of everyone else. Children spoilt ones at that!
How far has the UK sunk if that is who we have making laws.
Hopefully the end is not to far away.
http://news.scotsman.com/politics/39Certain-defeat39-in-Glenrothes-will.4513556.jp
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# Archie_f
You ask whether the SNP would welcome a Tory government. I'm not an SNP member, I'm a former Labour Party member (former conference delegate, every local party position etc etc) and I can tell you that, along side millions of others: IT DOESN'T MATTER. Labour in government have been a vicious anti-working class murdering shower of .....not very nice people. There would be no fundamental difference having the Tories in power - they are both the same.
#41 GRhino
You ask how cuts in local services can be justified by the SNP. Well, the answer seems to be reasonably clear. If cuts are to be made, then one simply has to compare the below inflation rise in the block grant with the inflations rate.
Roughly 4.8% inflation rate and roughly 1.8% cut in the block grant equals a 3% cut.
Who made the cut?
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Oldnat, are you swaying towards the labour movement.......re- the block grant.
How was your American trip......did you catch any Obama fever.
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A personal anecdote about Gordon Brown:
In the last UK general election but one, Gordon Brown was picked up by a party member from Kelty in North Queensferry. Let's call him Bill and let's imagine that Bill is a councillor and even that Bill is secretary of the Labour group on the council.
Gordon has been a Fife Labour Party member with Bill for over 20 years. they've been through thick and thin. They chat all the way to Cowdenbeath.
In Cowdenbeath, Bill stops the car, gets out and walks round the other side of the car. Gordon has already got out, spins around to see Bill and says:
"Hi there...and will you be voting for me in this election?"
I leave you to your own conclusions about what this says about Brown.
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irnbru-addict
come home....the water is fine!
you..no it makes sense....come home to real labour.
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Try checking out:
http://jess-the-dog.blogspot.com/
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#52
"could i suggest the redundant position for him."
As opposed to the 'missionary' position for the workers he's sold out.
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57 DerekBarker
"come home....the water is fine!"
Well, I would but I fear that too many labour MPs have peed in it...
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#21 Scottishrepublic
Couldn't go to bed without pinging this one
"The SNP is a rainbow party, of varying peoples who are united in their determination to rid this country from rule by a foreign nation.
"The SNP comprise of Socialists, Social Democrats, Conservatives, Liberals and every other political persuasion. It also has Catholics, Protestants, Muslims, Seik, Jewish and the many many religous beliefs."
Are you suggesting that the SNP is broad church of single issue obsessives bent upon a single goal, whereupon they can all fragment into a MiniMe of Westminster? You appear to be promising future of bitter inter-necine schism!
"They must believe that Scots can do a better job, running their own affairs in their own Nation."
As far as I can see, whichever way you call it, Scotland, England, UK or what, Scots are already running the show everywhere and they're making a spectacularly bad job of it!
These sites are very closely monitored but I think you'll know what I mean when I say that this puerile romanticism rhymes with rowlocks!
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#61 Anglophone
Many misunderstandings arise from semantic confusion.
The "foreign" nation is the British - many of whom originate in Scotland. The essential conflict in Scottish politics is between those whose primary political identity is Scottish, and those whose primary political identity is British.
That Britain chose to elect a British party, which had significant numbers of Brits from Scotland in its leadership is their problem.
A Scottish government which prioritises Scotland rather than Britain is clearly to our advantage. A similar situation would also be true for England.
Your rhyme works with English pronunciation, as do jokes about whales and Wales - rather irrelevant on a Scottish blog.
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I have to say that this Labour Conference has inspired me! All is well, Gordon's the man to see us through, and the ship of the Labour Government is unsinkable!
Until they hit the iceberg of reality after this week. Gordon's tackling of the financial problems has had an air of desperation rather than masterly control. He is being driven by events rather than doing the driving. Nothing new there. Captain Courageous will end up going down with his New Labour ship. This conference is no more than the Labour version of "and the band played on".
Glad to see Iain Gray throw off the mantle of Brown's poodle so effectively! Really, you almost couldn't see Gordon's lips move during Gray's speech!
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Oldnat welcome back .... i see your bodyclock is stuck in a US timezone ... youd better sort it out or you will be blogging at the early hours just as i do when im on nights at work ;o)}
When are Labour gonna stop just trying to scare the electorate with stories and i wish Gordon would stop saying hes the man to rescue us cos as far as i see his incompetance has gotten us there in the first place..... chancellor for ten years ... could he not have ran a tighter ship and made the FSA do its job properly .... thats not what id call doing my job !!
Last thing ... was interesting to witness the pro union bloggers coming on after 5. Activists methinks.
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#13 Well done, Godwin the thread - you lose.
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It is obvious, at least to myself, that it is the feral pack who are driving the anti Brown campaign; I being neither a Gordon Brown nor a Labour supporter find it strange that such acts seem to go unnoticed or without comment.
David Miliband makes a speech and the first question that a political commentator asks of delegates and politicians is "was that the speech of the next Labour leader?"
Now I am fully well aware that press and broadcast journalists from independent companies are merely stoking fires of contentious debate to in increase the revenue from advertising, the very lifeblood of these organisations, but you would think that they would show some respect to the public's intelligence and cease from their rabble rousing.
In the case of a state broadcaster we witness their political editor's attempts to mask his inherent political bias which he has held since he was the Chairman of the Young Conservatives.
Press journalists and the printed press as we know it are doomed; they but a few years to exist; we may then move through a phase of free 'newspapers' in order that socioeconomically targeted advertising can continue to be delivered.
Is it not about time that press and broadcast journalists started complying with their job descriptions, at least the job descriptions they admit to publicly, that of reporting the news, not trying to create the news?
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Oh dear! Someone thinks the BBC does not have a pro-Labour bias! I'll have what he's having!
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Re 51 old nat
I well believe all governments have cut services to balance budgets, it is the substance of governments.
Increased spending on one area means decreased spending on another area, simple fact of life irresepctive of what party is in power.
However what the electorate should know is how all spending plans are to be paid for. That is what Ian Gray should have attacked on, what bits of the NHS, Education etc are having to reduce services to pay for the SNP list of spending pledges.
I don't think necessarily that these are wrong pledges but I hate when politicians treat voters as if they are stupid. We have the right to know who is going to pay.
That in reality is the job of opposition. Not many on this blog will want to ask the difficult questions, but Ian Gray has to hit for the truth because we are never going to get it from Alex Salmond.
It would make no difference if we were independant the questions would be the same, all spending has to be paid for.
So what other governments have done is largely irrelevant, what is important is here and now.
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#62 oldnat
I see that jetlag has left you all cranky. I think that the comments were entirely appropriate to Scottish blog crammed with people under the quaint impression that they belong to a club of fair, liberal minded philosophers whose fearless writing is on the brink of beinging about a tartan Utopia in which all races nationalities and creeds can co-exist in fraternal serenity.
Those whom the gods would destroy they first make believe their own publicity!
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#26, archie_f
I really don't mind how the English vote. It's their country and their parliament, and what they do with it is their business. Both Labour and Conservative are clearly Unionist parties - neither is friendly to Scottish aspirations of independence (or, indeed, to Scottish aspirations generally - look how quick Gordon Brown was to put the boot in the Bank of Scotland).
So no, I wouldn't 'prefer' a Conservative victory.
#9, U9461192
It's stupid to present raising more taxes, or hiring more civil servants, or increasing debt as 'left wing' policies. These things are all strictly neutral between left wing and right wing. They don't by one iota put the ownership of the means of production into the hands of the workers or increase social justice; they don't by one iota increase the ability of people to rise by their own merit. They are strictly about increasing the power of the central state apparatus, and that is orthogonal to arguments about 'left' and 'right'.
It's my judgement that the UK government are on balance more right wing than left wing, more inclined to pander to elite power than to social justice; but then I probably would think that because I am very left wing.
Oh, and, re #39, U9461192, you think it's proper for a government to seek to overrule a democratically elected parliament? That way dictatorship lies.
#33, Reluctant-Expat, there are indeed many peurile and hysterical SNP supporters posting to this blog. But, as you yourself so ably demonsrate, peurility and hysteria are not solely attributes of the SNP supporters.
(and yes, I'm a paid up member of the SNP. I joined in 1979, after we were cheated out of a parliament then; before that I supported devolution).
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#70
Simon, do you honestly believe that the HBOS crisis was nothing more than a chance for GB to put the boot in to Scotland
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The 'Hall' looked packed for the Gray address or were they all asleep?
I am so glad that I was not a pupil of this guy, nor any of the kids - inspirational NOT!
What did he say again?
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
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70. Oh dear, another one who sees conspiracies afoot.
Are there any nats out there who don't believe there are English/UK/international/corporate conspiracies to "destroy Scotland"?
Any at all?
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#73I believe the rumour is being frantically circulated in Labour ranks that Gordon Brown is the best man to lead Britain. :-)
Then again, even they recognise that as a conspiracy - shored up by neo-Thatcherites in Brown lipstick!
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Brian, get a grip nobody believes Gray or Labour except the people at the conference trying to convince each other there will be a revival.
Perhaps BBC want you all to lay off the Labour party but talking up Ian Gray's speech is verging on the ridiculous.
Any progress Labour make in Scotland is only because they are dragged there by the other parties in Holyrood.
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Re 73, I can state with all honesty that while I would not count myself a 'Nat', in that I am not particularly fond of Alex Salmond nor do I inextricably link the idea that support of independence means support of the SNP, I certainly do not believe that anyone is out to "destroy Scotland" (I assume you mean through some kind of nuclear device or similar). To be more specific, I further do not believe that anyone is out to destroy the SNP. I would state that it appears rational enough to believe that a party advocating the dissolution of a union may come in for more flak than a pro-unionist party, but the SNP walked into this with their eyes wide open, and must have known it was coming.
Much more intriguing (in my opinion) than these debates which are heard time and time again and will be decided in the fullness of time rather than through endless repetitions on blogs: Where are you getting these quotations from? I accede I have not read every word of every post on this blog, but could you reference who you are quoting?
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What a boring strategy ,delivered to the 'heard it ,seen it , done it and bought the T shirt ' people.
Are they all simple?
I have just read a piece quoting Ed Balls and Gordon Brown as saying, regulation of the bankers/financiers absolutely necessary and whoever dreamt up the de regulation was daft .
Guess who is quoted in 2006 as saying de regulation was necessary and wonderful?
Check out Guido!
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73 Reluctant Expat
The news down here is that the deal brokered by Gordon Brown with Lloyds TSB to act as a white knight for HBOS includes a clause talking about the importance of "avoiding job losses in Scotland". I'm sure that the nice folk of Halifax will collect their P45s, comforted by the knowledge that no stone was left unturned in the fight to win key by-elections.
If people are wondering if the SNP can get through to election time without a scandal, take a look in the latest Private Eye (1219) on page 7 under the title "Salmond Stakes"
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Mistaking the National Broadcaster's inadequate attempts at balance for bias is a commonly made mistake and clearly indicates a superficial perception of their charter and a clear misinterpretation of their subsequent reporting of politics both at home and abroad.
Readers must cover complete articles by the National Broadcaster's political journalists to determine whether balance is being applied or merely being paid some form of lip service; pro Labour, Conservative or Liberal comments may simply be window dressing producing as they do evidence albeit inadequate of attempts at balanced reporting.
Any whirring sounds may be John Reith spinning in his grave.
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78. I've heard about the pro-Edinburgh clause; one of the advantages of having your local MP as the Chancellor, I suppose!
That the Lloyds Chairman is not meeting Salmond, merely a board member, suggests that there is little hope of the entire group moving its World HQ from the City, as if that would happen anyway (a rather bizarre aspiration by the FM). A greatly slimmed-down HBOS HQ seems the likely outcome.
Halifax should see a large chunk of money coming from the Govt for this. Losing so many jobs in such a small town will be devastating.
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As someone who is undecided on who to vote for come the next election, the close to racist ramblings and rantings of most Nats on this blog do nothing to ingratiate me to them.
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#70 Simon Brooke
For someone who describes themself as very left wing, you seem to be remarkably balanced. I would only take issue with you on one tiny point, the Tories believe in small government and the centrality of the individual, so by definition they would not increase the size of the State or the number of bureaucrats.
OTHER POSTERS
The Labour Party may be inept at delivering a message, but their message is nevertheless clear: the GE will be a two horse race between Labour and the Tories, the SNP cannot form a government at Westminster and the Liberals are sinking slowly in the west. It therefore seems a perfectly reasonable position to point out to the Scottish electorate that for Westminster an SNP vote is a wasted vote - whether the strategy will work is, of course, open to question.
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Comparisons with Margaret Thatcher have been strewn carelessly around this blog. Love her or loathe her, The Lady knew what needed to be done, she told us why, she told us how she would do it, and she did it.
You can see immediately that it is nonsense to compare our present array of incompetents with Margaret Thatcher. Not one of them can look us in the eye with a vestige of her integrity.
Of course, the evil that people do lives after them, the good is oft interred with the bones (sorry Will). The Poll tax was an awful mistake, but not in principle, just in applying it solely in Scotland where the loony left were aching for a grievance.
Iain Gray, Alex Salmond, Brown, Cameron et al, would give their eye-teeth to be compared to Margaret Thatcher, but secretly in the case of the first two.
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82#
The fact that, by definition, the SNP cannot form a Westminster government, does not automatically imply that there is no requirement for an SNP presence at Westminster.
That particular argument is as worn out as it is twisted.
It was precisely the pressure of such a presence that led to the restoration of our Parliament in 1999.
Anyone who suggests that historic achievement was an act of altruistic principle by the Labour party is frankly losing the plot.
Historically, the very election of a single SNP MP to Westminster has had a greater impact than any number of 'faceless' Labour MPs.
The SNP group at Westminster, whatever its size, has always punched well above its weight, and frequently been the vital last line of defence in Scottish interests.
Now, as long matters of Scottish interest remain reserved to Westminster, so there will remain a crucial role there for the SNP.
#80
Touched that Expat has taken the opportunity - albeit belated - to consider the impact of the banking crisis on jobs.
From all his previous posts, one would think the danger posed to so many Scottish jobs was simply cheap cannon fodder in the desperate tirade against independence.
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Brigadier, I would disagree with you on your analysis of Margaret Thatcher, to point out that she knew what she thought needed to be done, rather than simply what needed to be done. That one disagreement obviously spawns a host of others, but that is for another day. I also think the use of the words 'loony left' leaves a lot to be desired.
It would also appear that the majority of bloggers are highlighting, quite fairly in my opinion, the incongruity of the SNP being likened to the Tories while down south, Brown continually entertains her and is open to the charge of following in some of her policy footsteps. Our separate opinions of the Iron Lady aside, I think that is a fair enough point.
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82. At 12:25pm on 23 Sep 2008, Dick-Whittington.
you appear to becoming desperate for your beloved party the NEW CONSERVATIVE LABOUR PARTY.
your words could have come straight out of the mouth of iain gray, mr browns poodle.
new labour have failed the scotish - british electorate badly, do you not realise that. no amount of soundbites from brown or his followers can revive labour.
what happened when the famous 59 scottish labour MPs went to parliament when the tories were in power, a great big zero.
new labour are getting their message accross, and the electorate are rejecting it as centre to right wing tory policies.
vote for a party that cares about scotland, not for a party that cares about itself.
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#82.
Dick-Whittington.
"It therefore seems a perfectly reasonable position to point out to the Scottish electorate that for Westminster an SNP vote is a wasted vote - whether the strategy will work is, of course, open to question."
It's not actually. Scottish Labour MP's do very little for Scotland, they also have to follow their party line that will cover and take into account the whole of the UK. The Scottish Nationalists do not have to worry about voters in the South East think of them, they are for Scotland and Scotland only.
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Well, Briggy old boy, (#83), you appear to be right in drawing a comparison between Mrs T and Dave - if current polls have it even close to correct, Dave will be sitting on a 146 seat majority, which I seem to recall beats even her finest hour at (?) 144
All this hot air therefore about the SNP wishing for a Tory Victory and being Tartan Tories (That old jibe !) is an irrelevance. It doesn't matter if the SNP win all 59 Scottish Seats, the UK government will be True Blue and Labour will be out of office for another generation - that's the way the electoral maths works.
Of course, 59 seats would be nice. Current predicitions show 23, which would make the SNP the 4th largest UK party (from the 10% of the electorate who could vote SNP)
The fun and games however would start with the election of SNP MP #30.......
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84. This post is a perfect example why no-one takes you seriously.
For starters, to try to claim that the SNP are the reason for the Assemblies in London, Wales and NI, plus the proposed English regional assemblies, is just ridiculous.
I also notice not one single nat has come forward saying they do not believe in any of the various conspiracy theories.
Who says the nationalists have no credibility?!
Oh yes. Everyone.
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#85 Eoin_og: As always, a constructive reply. My point was really about integrity and clarity of purpose, qualities that made Mrs T a world figure, applauded equally in Moscow and Washington. No party here has a figure who can aspire to anything similar. I know that truth really rankles with some, but so be it.
Loony Left was common usage in our language at the time. Think Brent Council, daft Derek Hatton in Liverpool, Militant Tendency, SWRP, etc. I hope you don't think I was insulting handicapped people in the accepted sense?
Of course the bloggers are entitled to highlight percieved similarities and incongruities. All I was saying was: don't drag Margaret Thatcher into that particular gutter.
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#89 Expat
"No-one" - "Everyone"
Please continue with your hyperbole, it continues to confirm your lack of balance.
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Call me a Nat then, if it stops this nonsense that no 'Nat' is ready to come forward to dispute this fatutous claim that we/they all believe these conspiracy theories. Of course we do not, and putting up straw men to shoot at does you, nor your side of the debate, any credit.
Much more to the point, you have yet to explain where you get the words 'destroy Scotland' and why you put them in quotation marks (#73). A swift ctrl+f and typing in the word destroy gets us one in #21 where a blogger does conted that destruction is on the cards, but for the SNP; the next reference is in the next post to destroying Scottish Labour; and the next one brings us to a post by your good self, and it is only you who uses the word after that until #73.
I find it strange that you lecture others on a lack of credibility.
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Off comment Brian why can't I watch the Politics Show,able to see everything else could you get your bosses to sort it out.
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83. At 12:55pm on 23 Sep 2008, brigadierjohn.
i agree with you on some of your points, in as much as the unions had to be brought under control and the subsidising of inneficient industries had to stop as it was ruining the country.
as alex salmond said, it was her social policies that the scots did not like at all.
with the poll tax being introduced into scotland first, thatcher showed her contempt for the scottish population.
whereas the poll tax as an idea was ok, it was not linked to ability to pay.
LIT should be a labour policy for the whole of britain, as it is fair that all users of council amenities pay towards running councils and it be based on ability to pay, as it helps the poorer paid and pensioners.
LIT has an advantage that if you are ill (without income) or made redundant then you instantly do not pay, no filling in forms and waiting for weeks for your benifit to be sorted out.
many posters have said that LIT makes the councillors not accountable to the local electorate. have they ever been, as seen by the dramatic rises in council tax over the last 10 years.
councillors will still be accountable to the electorate as to how wisely they spend the money that they receive from the central goverment.
allthough there are some problems to be discussed and solved, by enlarge LIT would be a fair tax, and when the economy is doing well more money would be pumped into local councils for capital projects.
further more, the government could allways keep in reserve some funds to finance capital projects on a needs basis which the councils would apply for.
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#89
Don't just take my word for it, Pat.
Ask any honest Labour politician - if you can find one!! - From where did the political pressure for a democratic Scottish Parliament come, if not from the SNP???
Oh, and by the way - regional assemblies were offered in England and rejected - evidence if it were ever needed that the pressure certainly didn't come from there!!
;-)
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92. Try again, and without resorting to the usual huff and bluster -
Do you believe in any of the following conspiracy theories:
a) The HBOS takeover was a UK/English conspiracy to destroy Scottish nationalism and not a government rescue of a struggling bank that didn't involve another unpopular nationalisation which would burden the taxpayer with yet more billions of debt;
b) There is a recent article by a US think-tank proving that there is a joint UK/US conspiracy to destroy Scottish nationalism.
c) The official oil production/reserve figures are all lies propagated by an international conspiracy of several govts, multinational oil companies, the oil markets etc. to destroy Scottish nationalism.
d) The tax revenue and expenditure figures released in all SG accounts are flawed (even when released by the SNP) and is evidence of a conspiracy by successive UK governments to undermine Scottish nationalism. The 'analysis' conducted by a much-discredited amateur (ie. 'The Great Deception) is proof of this.
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#95
In my experience the SNP played, at best, a marginal role in the agitation that led to the setting up of a Scottish Parliament.
Pressure for a greater say for the Scottish people came from the STUC and Trades Unions plus a range of 'civic' organisations. It came about largely as a consequence of the impact of Thatcher's government policies for which, it was widely held, she had no mandate for in Scotland. Remember the big December demo in Edinburgh in 1992? That was organised, led and supported primarily by the organisations I've stated. Your trying to re-write history.
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#96 Pat
Why did you leave out Nessie, JFK and the Roswell Incident???
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#94 vote_nat: Thanks for your reply. My aim is not to defend Margaret Thatcher, per se, but to point out that the people being compared with her - to borrow a football phrase - couldn't lace her boots.
The Poll tax thing is one of those urban myths that has sprouted arms and legs. Yes, it was tried out in Scotland. But so what? Pilot schemes for every kind of initiative are road-tested in all parts of the UK by politicians, multi-national companies, etc. Naturally people earning good money and living five to a house squealed about contributing to local services for the first time in their lives. But it was supposed to be rolled out across the UK. It wasn't a "punishment" for awkward Scots, or any form of contempt. It was a trial, pure and simple.
If LIT is tried out, I think you will hear plenty of squeals. Not about the tax itself, but about the other costs required to fill the black hole between Council Tax and LIT in our local finances. Everything has to be paid for, and the SNP would do well to point this out now, rather than suffer a massive backlash when the Utopian dream proves to be just that. Five quid to empty your bin, sir?
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My apologies for the usual huff and bluster, Expat; I will try and be as concise as the example you have provided for the rest of us.
a) No, I believe the bank was the victim of the credit crunch. Although I do appreciate that the HQ moving down south is a blow to Scotland, if indeed it does so. I also take issue with your use of the word 'unpopular' as being unfounded and prejudice, but that is simply an aside.
b) If you care to provide some kind of link and reference to the said article, we can all have a look at it and decide. Currently, I have not even heard of this conspiracy theory
c)Which oil production figures are you using, and from whom do they originate? There are several, as I am sure you are aware.
d) Again, some kind of reference to said documents would be welcome, as without them, the evidence cannot be evaluated.
However, to attempt to forestall what would undoubtedly be your decrying of my attempts to get evidence as merely avoiding the issue, let me re-iterate:
(i) I currently do not believe in any governmental conspiracy to use underhand methods to destroy Scottish nationalism
(ii) I will not so believe until reliable evidence has been demonstrated in support of this allegation; there is a presumption to be overcome before a conspiracy (or indeed any) theory should be believed. Charging it should not raise a presumption in the other direction.
And now that I have been good enough to answer your questions as directly as I can (I did try and avoid huff and bluster), perhaps you will enlighten us as to the origin of your quotes concerning the words 'destroy Scotland'?
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#96
It's not inconceivable that decisions made outside Scotland are less likely to be in Scotland's interests. In the process towards achieving independence I can see nothing wrong with pointing out how such decisions could be made better within Scotland. Your assumption that such behaviour constitutes a conspiracy theory suggests that nationalism is just an excuse to moan about our lot. If you genuinely believe that then there's simply no talking to you I'm afraid.
"The tighter you grasp it, the faster it trickles through your fingers."
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100. So we have at least one nat who does not seem to believe in any of the ongoing nationalist conspiracies. Hallelujah.
Any others care to step forward?
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#71, derekbarker
No, of course not. It was down to
Only one of those factors has anything to do with Gordon Brown. However, I'm reasonably confident that part of the reason the UK government didn't choose to support HBOS was political - that Brown (and his advisors) saw the demise of the Bank of Scotland as way of persuading people that somehow Scotland is unable to run its own affairs.
That won't have been the only consideration, of course. But it will have been one of them.
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#95 Dougie-Dubh:
Off topic I know, but I have heard it said many times (even by relatives) in Scotland that the English electorate rejected regional assemblies and are therefore set against devolution for England. Not true. I live in England, and the majority that I speak to about it would like an "English" parliament on the same lines as Holyrood; what they don't want is pointless and expensive regional assemblies. That would be like seperate "parliaments" in Scotland for the Highlands, Lowlands and Islands. Just what effective power would that give the country? The situation south of the border is no different.
It is also worth pointing out that only one "region" (apart from London, which is different for many reasons) was offered a referendum on the subject. Labour binned the idea as soon as they lost that one. It is my belief that the SNP didn't directly produce the pressure for a devolved Scottish parliament, but it is fair to say that Labour foolishly believed that creating one would draw the sting from SNP calls for full iindependence, which of course threatens their grip on power at Westminster. That may still yet be proved true, no-one can say for sure until and unless a referendum is held. It was, though a fearsome gamble on their part, and whatever the eventual outcome, the political settlement of the UK can never be the same again. Should the Scottish people vote against full independence, and that is a real possibility despite opinion polls - that's the nature of democracy - the question of a fair devolution settlement for England (as a nation, not a collection of odd regions that have no historic significance) will still need to be addressed. There is no sign that Labour have any intention of doing so, and the small matter of self-interest is high up on the list of reasons for that.
My (English) wife is already grumbling about an MP sitting for a Scottish seat pronouncing in his conference speech in Manchester about health services "in this country", which as she points out, means her country not his! You have to see her point.
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#86 87 vote nat and Thomas Porter
Actually, I agree with both of you, I don't think the strategy will work in Labour seats where the SNP are currently in second place. However, I do think that Labour are engaging in a damage-limitation exercise which could work in Labour seats where the SNP are in 3rd or 4th place or in seats currently held by the Liberal Party where the SNP don't have a large local presence.
At present, if opinion polls are to be believed, the SNP would take around 20 seats with Labour taking about 26, the Liberals around 7 and the Tories about 6. But, these figures will change quite quickly during the campaign, particularly with an electorate as volatile as Scotland. At which point, people may, and I emphasise may, rush to their known comfort zone - the Labour Party, if Labour manage to turn it into a straight fight between them and the Tories and frankly to dismiss that possibility is not a very clever nationalist strategy.
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Just seen this on a blog site - Charlie Whelan unwittingly revealed his speech notes - and his pessimism - at a Manchester conference fringe meeting.
Those sitting near the front of the audience were treated to a clear view of his jottings.
After telling the audience the news that the SNP would win Glenrothes based on current phone canvassing, he was meant to go on to say: "But just as we fight to win the general election, we won't give up in Glenrothes." This rallying cry was visibly struck out on his speech notes having been excised in the final cut.
Perhaps he thought he wouldn't get many takers for the coming battle?
Charlie Whelan, Aye, isn't he is the guy who resigned in 1999 after leaking information relating to Peter Mandelson's resignation over a home loan. It couldn't have happened to a nicer guy!
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96. At 2:42pm on 23 Sep 2008, Reluctant-Expat.
conspiracy theories:
a) you are still peddling this even though many nats have informed you that this was not true. allthough there is a lot of questions to be answered as to why the SFA did not restrict short selling earlier.
b) the artical in the washington times was interesting, in that it was written by an bradford (england) don and only published in an american paper and appeared to run down scotland and the scottish hamecomming year, thereby it could be effecting the scottish tourist trade and of course the scottish economy.
you want nats say that it was british conspiracy, whereas the question is why did he write the article and why did the washington times print it.
c) what rubbish you spout. there have been wiidly different figures produced by lots of bodies and we do not knows the truth.
we all know that successive GB governments suppressed the Mc Crone report.
what i would ask is, do you trust the GB government to tell us the truth.
an interesting story that i was told by a petrochemical worker ( i do not know if it is true ) was that he was at a large oil industry function with american oil bigwigs, and one of them told him that oil had been shiped to the USA long before it was announced that there was any production from the north sea, and the GB war debt to the USA had been paid long before the GB government said it was.
d) the GERS reports up until last year was produced by the labour party and showed that scotland was a basket case and depended on handouts from westminster.
the last GERS report was produced by independent officials and showed that scotland was in fact subsidising westminster.
many costs that had been allocated to the previous GERS should not have been. its called cooking the figures to obtain the result you want (scotland is to poor to survive independently).
---------------------------------------------
how about you answer some questions for a change instead of others answering your questions only.
1) WHY IS WESTMINSTER SO DESPERATE TO HOLD ONTO SCOTLAND.
2) WHY WAS LABOURS GERS REPORTS MADE OUT TO SHOW THAT SCOTLAND WAS BEING SUBSIDISED BY WESTMINSTER.
3) WHY DO YOU NOT BELIEVE IN SCOTLANDS ABILITY TO RUN ITS OWN AFFAIRS.
4) DO YOU BELIEVE THAT WESTMINSTER TELLS US THE TRUTH AT ALL TIMES.
5) WHAT ARE THE BENIFITS OF BEING PART OF THE UNION FOR SCOTLAND.
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Conspiracies!
In 1995 the UK was in the top ten of least corrupt countries, in the last 13 years (11 under labour) the UK has dropped to 16th.
http://www.transparency.org/news_room/in_focus/2008/cpi2008/cpi_2008_table
Could do better.
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100. At 3:31pm on 23 Sep 2008, Eoin_og.
if you look back at oldnats posts, he supplied some links to articles.
it is not about conspiracies but it makes interesting reading
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107. Okay, we have someone who believes in all four conspiracies (although he did try very hard to make it look like he didn't!).
Your tale about secret oil shipments to the USA is just genius! Just how would that work, anyway?!
And last time I looked, the SG accounts showed a near #3bn deficit for Holyrood. Salmond made himself look very silly by trying to claim otherwise but the true figures are very clear.
How come previous accounts were published by the "Labour Party" but this latest one (which is nearly identical) was published, not by the SNP, but by "independent officials"?
Right. Anyone else want to comment on post 96?
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110. At 5:08pm on 23 Sep 2008, Reluctant-Expat.
what a twisted mind you have .
i do not believe in the conspiracy theories and yet you twist it because i said that there was a lot of questions to be answered.
as i said in regards to the oil shipments to the USA, i do not know if it was true.
where is the answers to the questions i asked you.
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Ex-Pat - I would like you to say where you got the quotation 'destroy Scotland'. It is my third time of asking, and I have patiently answered your questions in spite of phrases such as 'huff and bluster' that you have attributed to mine.
vote_nat - many thanks, I will do that.
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#97
Well, I was there myself.
I even remember being gutted, along with the rest of Scotland when, after 3 terms of Thatcher, Labour failed to win yet another general election - despite being hot favourites.
I also have a copy of something called 'the declaration of Calton Hill', in which many Labour MPs signed up th the right of sovereignty of the Scottish people - that is our inaliable right to determine our own government - up to and including full national sovereignty.
It transpired, of course, that many of these Labour signatories did not in fact believe in the Scottish people's sovereignty, and were simply using the campaign as a cynical device to forestall support for the SNP regain power at Westminster.
Following the drawn-out deliberations of the Labour-dominated Constitutional Convention, after which they were bound to offer us some kind of 'halfway-house', which the SNP supported in all good faith - Labour could not resist trumpeting their vain and self-serving hope that it would "kill nationalism stone dead" - as clear an indication as any of their aim to deny the Scottish people the legitemate and democratic right to the principle of full sovereignty.
That is the true extent of the 'principle' behind Labour's ambitions for 'home rule'.
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Damn, just as it was getting interesting, I have to leave - a life to live etc.
(I shall endeavour to return to this later tonight!)
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Off to the bar at the Labour party conference Reluctant-Expat?
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#111
Why don't you just put yourself out your misery and blog the answers, you know you want to!! Then you can move onto another blog to peddle the same old tortuous rant with your friends irrespective of the subject Brian is covering.
However, before you provide the predictable answer to your question 4 - one for you: does Alexis tell the truth, ever? Perhaps you could consult officials at the Scottish Executive on that one - if you really want to know the truth!!
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104# MalcolmW2
Your constructive post raises a number of points I very much agree with.
Foisting "regional assemblies" on different parts of England where there was no demand for these, was comparable to "regionalising" Scotland in a simlar manner, and did not logically follow on from the establishment of the long-awaited and strongly-demanded Scottish Parliament.
Of course, England has the right to the democratic constitutional arrangements which best suit it, as elected by the people of England only.
To what extent power is vested in and wielded by Westminster will, unfortunately but unavoidably, always bring about certain tensions between the UK's different regions and countries.
Equally, we know from experience that the behaviour of the Labour Party is inherently dominated by self-interest.
With Scotland having so much in its favour as a potentially independent country, and so many particular causes to feel inadequately governed by Westminster's remote and centralised powerbase, it has always tended to make the running in demands for constitutional change.
I believe in our inherent right, as a people, to full national sovereignty, subject to democratic expression of the popular will.
Whatever our constitutional future, however, it should and must be founded on equal respect for the rights and freedoms of all peoples throughout these islands, and across the globe.
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116. At 5:56pm on 23 Sep 2008, salmondella.
ah. another nasty comes out of the woodwork.
could it be that you are ex-pat'
why should i stick to the blog when others that i am answering do not.
i could be downright rude to you but i will not lower myself to your level.
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I see Reluctant-Expat continues to be abusive and refuses to answer simple questions. I still find it amusing that, the SNP are a group encouraging racism and encouraging according to Reluctant-Expat, yet those who follow the SNP or support Scottish Independence are described as children or arch-nats by Reluctant-Expat. Is Reluctant-Expat not creating groups and dividing Scotland by being prejudice against those who are Pro-Independence?
Besides to answer some points to your #96. Did the UK Gov not lie once about oil figures, why believe them now? Did the UK Gov not use MI5 Agents to infiltrate the Scottish National Party to undermine Scottish Independence? Was the Scottish Parliament not created to 'stop nationalism dead'? The US also have a history of supporting dictators and destabilising countries for their own interests. Is it not possible that they may be worried that an Independent Scotland would ruin Britain, one of their most important European allies? Britain does contribute well to countries such as Iraq and Afganistan that does consist of alot of Scottish soldiers which may be lost after Scottish Independence. I am not suggestiing there is a UK/US conspiracy but I see why the US may prefer a 'United Kingdom'.
Dick-Whittington:
I don't believe that Labour will be able to protect seats where the SNP are 3rd or 4th place. If the Tories do not get the seat then the SNP will, the Lib Dems are see as un-important in Scotland and recent by-elections show that the Lib Dems have lost votes. It could be out of protest but then we can also assume because the SNP have gave a great performance in the Scottish Parliament. We won't know till the elections if it was protest votes or not.
Money will also play a large role in the election. Labour has none, the SNP has increased membership and has healthier books then Labour. The SNP also is quite organised because of their recent successes and the Labour activists have lost confidence and do not see the point on going out when they will loose. These little factors will determine much of the election. Of course there are some who will vote Labour no matter what and these people will always make it difficult to win certain seats.
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116. At 5:56pm on 23 Sep 2008, salmondella.
personaly for you.
are you still upset that THE NEW CONSERVATIVE LABOUR PARTY lost in the scottish parliament elections.
are you still upset that THE NEW CONSERVATIVE LABOUR PARTY lost glasgow east.
are you upset that THE NEW CONSERVATIVE LABOUR PARTY have given up on winning glenrothes
are you upset that THE NEW CONSERVATIVE LABOUR PARTY will NOT WIN the next general election.
are you upset that the scottish branch of THE NEW CONSERVATIVE LABOUR PARTY are way behind in the polls for the scottish parliament.
are you upset that THE NEW CONSERVATIVE LABOUR PARTY are known as the sleaze party.
are you upset that the leader of THE NEW CONSERVATIVE LABOUR PARTY is known for his tantrums when he cant get his own way.
are you upset that IAIN GRAY the leader of THE NEW CONSERVATIVE LABOUR PARTY is a public schoolboy and ONLY has a degree in social science.
are you upset that THE NEW CONSERVATIVE LABOUR PARTYS conference is going down like a lead balloon in the press.
i could go on, but you can take it that i dislike THE NEW CONSERVATIVE LABOUR PARTY with a vengence.
regards.
ps. yes, THE NEW CONSERVATIVE LABOUR PARTY has a certain ring of truth to the name.
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#120
Thanks, enlightening!?
#118
Not an ex-pat, just someone with a more grounded view than some of the narrow minded pie in the sky stuff peddled on here.
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This particular blog appears to have run its predictable course with just a few zealots left in their own little vortex. The more strident always seem to get back to the same old obsessions. The only plan that I know of to destroy Scotland involved a proposal to test Britain's first nuclear bomb outside Wick. Apparantly the idea was shelved....because the wet weather might affect the recording instruments. It could be a myth but then isn't nearly everything.
As for the big question of Scottish viability I am left wondering if the only way to settle this is for independence to be bought on quickly. If Scotland is viable then everyone wins (if only in reducing the level of background noise), the zealots get their way and the rest of the UK has more money to spread around.
If it doesn't work...well then ambitious and educated Scots will continue to move to work abroad. The zealots may well have to go cap in hand to someone else to balance the books. In those circumstances, a policy of irritating a larger, richer neighbour is not a long term recipe for success.
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121. At 09:05am on 24 Sep 2008, salmondella.
you defend unionist posters
who will not give answers to questions asked of them.
yes, the likes of ex-pat consistently runs down the nats and poses questions but never answers them, and yet you come in to defend them and rant against those that that defend the nats position.
you pulled me up about not sticking to brians blog, but did not pull up ex-pat for posing the questions in the first place, hipocrite.
so you did not like my answers, tough.
so dont give me the, i have a more grounded view than some of the narrow minded pie in the sky stuff peddled here.
have you ever stated your veiws, NO, so in your personal opinion you have a more grounded view .
you also work to the same agenda as ex-pat, do not answer questions but come back with another question and snide comments, but then again your snide comments seems to be your standards.
now, whether you support new labour or not is irrelevent to me, and it just so happens that it is in my personal interests that new labour are in power in westminster, but that does not stop me being critical of them and some of their policies which are right wing.
give use your views on why we should stay in the union, instead of putting down others views.
as to the HBOS affair, there are a lot of questions to be answered, which we will never know the truth about.
re :- tom gallachers article in the washington times, it would be interesting know to why he wrote it and why it was printed in that paper.
as for the story ( STORY ) about the shipment of oil to the USA, i do not know if it is true or not.
there are a lot of question to be answered, that we will not - cannot find answers to, but that does not stop the questions being asked.
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#122 Anglophone
Should being Scottish and believing in the best for your country and its people, including the right to national self-determination - bring on condemnation as a "zealot"???
Each of us has, I believe, the right to be citizens of the world whilst also belonging to a country which is a full member of the global community of nations.
On top of the nonsense we regularly receive about nationalists being "small-minded", "obsessed" or abusive - implying by sweeping generalisation that unionists could never be guilty of any of these things - what is often passed off as the "unionist" argument here and elsewhere is quite often thinly-disguised self-interest from the "big brother UK" perspective, which by definition takes little or no account of what might be Scotland's best interests - let alone our democratic right to make those decisions for ourselves.
Not least of all, the prospect of "unionists" persistently resorting to high-handed moral condemnations of "abusive" supporters of independence - has fully exposed itself for the rank hypocrisy that it is.
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#123
Really, how could I possibly compete with someone who feels he can comment with disdain on Iain Gray having "ONLY" a social science degree (#120).
Your academic credentials are clearly going to be far too rich for me but then again to make such childish and ill thought out comments does show an element of vulnerability.
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125. At 1:08pm on 24 Sep 2008, salmondella.
i see that the 120 post upset you, good it was meant to.
it is very interesting to see that you appear at the same time as ex- pat, exactly 3 minutes between the two of you today, coincidence ?, or two user names.
the same yesterday, ex-pat dissapears without answering questions and you appear to defend him, once again, coincidence or two user names.
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119. As if we didn't know already, Thomas_Porter also believes in a whole host of anti-nationalist conspiracies.
So far, we have just one nationalist who can say he doesn't buy into any nationalist claims of UK/international/political-commercial plots to undermine nationalism.
One.
And does anyone else buy into young vote_nat's tale (see #107) that somehow the UK Govt engineered a host of secret oil rigs, refineries and tankers to smuggle oil secretly to the US without anyone in the UK knowing oil production had even started?
Did I mention that this was all supposedly done in secret?
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125. At 1:08pm on 24 Sep 2008, salmondella.
Really, how could I possibly compete with someone who feels he can comment with disdain on Iain Gray having "ONLY" a social science degree (#120).
----------------------------------------------------
you seem to forget that it was iain gray who brought up his degree in social siences to compare his credentials to alex salmonds degree in economics.
by doing so he set himself up as a target for redicule.
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127. At 1:39pm on 24 Sep 2008, Reluctant-Expat - salmondella.
how you manage to embelish a story - you are the pits, twisting what people post to suit your own agenda.
where is the answers to all the questions that posters asked you, or will you suddenly dissappear again.
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128. His degree in Social....what?
Set himself up as a target for.....what?
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124 Dougie-Dubh
re Zealot...I have checked the word in the dictionary and it is defined as "uncompromising or extreme partisan, fanatic"
These blogs contain all of the above in spadefuls don't you think. It's a pity that the definition didn't include "paranoid sense of victimisation"...if that's what you mean by "what's in Scotland's best interest"
Fascinating to hear that AS has a degree in economics. It explains so much. I look forward to hearing about the post-grad in dissembling. It takes you right back to all those nasty sneering journalists inquiring into John Major's O-Level(s). I would have thought that a degree in Onanistics would be the best qualification for Labour Leader in Scotland.
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#127.
Reluctant-Expat.
"119. As if we didn't know already, Thomas_Porter also believes in a whole host of anti-nationalist conspiracies."
Again you are lying, your are nothing more then a liar. You give unionists a bad name. I would not be suprised if you were apart of the BNP.
Well everyone, you of course may check what I wrote in the first place. I would suggest we ignore Expat. They have demonstrated many reasons why they are unreasonable to debate and discuss with.
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