Sentiment and history
Things fall apart, the centre cannot hold. Confronted with tales of financial apocalypse - and political bickering - I find myself meandering towards Yeats.
At Holyrood, we are, mostly, mere observers: a status we share with the vast bulk of the populace. I expect the first minister may make a comment this afternoon on the condition of HBOS.
But most are frankly stunned - and only too aware that partisan politics can seem piffling by contrast.
Both the bank itself and expert commentators have taken pains to stress that HBOS is fundamentally sound, that it has been the victim of its perceived exposure to the housing market and, more, to short-selling by traders.
Sentiment and history play no part, I know, in the calculations which are under way as I write.
But remember what we are dealing with here. The Bank of Scotland (the BOS bit which merged with the Halifax) was founded in 1695 by an Act of the pre-Union Scots Parliament.
Disastrous expeditions
Its foundation coincided with the ultimately disastrous Darien expeditions, with efforts to expand Scottish trade in Europe, with famine and strain, with the pre-discussions which led eventually to Union.
In 1696, it became the first bank in Europe to issue paper currency. These distinctive notes were later to be defended by no less a figure than Sir Walter Scott as he fought off efforts to constrain the bank's right to produce paper bills.
Sir Walter's image is still on Bank of Scotland notes.
It has had a long and turbulent but successful history. Now it appears it is about to enter a new phase, beset by necessity, global turmoil and the onslaught of individual acquisitiveness.
I'm 
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~58~RS~)
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With finances the way they are, one wonders whether now, our lovely Scottish notes will be accepted across the border.....
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"At Holyrood, we are, mostly, mere observers: a status we share with the vast bulk of the populace."
If you think the "populace" are "merely observers" you are in for a rude awakening at the Glenrothes by election and the elections that follow it.
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What's really sad about this is that it isn't the Bank of Scotland which embroiled itself in the speculative froth of 'Buy to Let' and 100+% mortgages, it was the Halifax.
Aside from the history Brian quotes, the Bank of Scotland is also Britain's oldest commercial bank. One can't help feeling that if the merger with Halifax had not happened, it would not be in this mess now.
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If the merger goes ahead are we also witnessing the end of the Idependence debate, giving the fact that the mergers would create more or less fewer banks and larger Uk national banks.
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If the Bank of Scotland is swallowed up and effectively ceases to exist as a recognizably distinctive entity in terms of governance and identity, I shall move my accounts.
One wonders why HBOS could not be restructured so as to divest itself of the problematic home-loan end of its business. Presumably the UK government did not want that because of the likely adverse impact on the housing market.
In opting for a merger in these circumstances HBOS should surely see to it that the Bank of Scotland is treated generously.
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Maybe Holyrood are bemused observers. Make no mistake however, this is a disaster for financial services in Scotland. Further consolidation will inevitably follow with further significant job losses in Scotland, Edinburgh specifically.
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Why the speculation with just Scottish banks? Is someone down south fueling the fires? Seems very like it and there's nothing we can do to preserve our oldest bank.
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Todays developments expose the flawed analysis of the First Minister on Newsnight Scotland last night. Arguing that HBOS was a sound business and all that was needed was more liquidity (our money) and confidence (his rhetoric).
Like his solution to the problems with the housing market a few weeks ago, ploughing £100 million of our money in to expand a market which needs to contract and correct itself, it shows Salmond to be too close to those in the financial sector who are partly responsible for this mess.
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From the Beeb article Brian links to:
"The government has also said it will over-rule any concerns that competition authorities may raise, BBC Business Editor Robert Peston has learned. "
I don't know much about such things, but wouldn't the EU also have a say when it comes to anti-competitive mergers? Can the UK govt really overrule any such EU edicts? Any legal eagles out there that can enlighten me would be much appreciated!
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#3, you raise good points on the quality of the mortgage book at BOS, and they have undoubtedly been the victim of events to some extent.
However, it's not just direct residential mortgage exposue that's the problem at HBOS.
They also had large holdings in CDO's and SIV's linked to US housing, including subprime. These are leveraged plays on the US housing market and they have been written down by a large extent.
My view is that had HBOS not held those, it's recent capital raising (to offset those losses partially) would have been enough to ride through the credit crunch.
Add on top their large exposure to commercial property through direct lending and exposure to shares of property companies and you can see although they are not an investment bank, their total leveraged property exposure was higher than it should have been.
All in all a very sad tale, but a cautionary one, that a bank who made effectively no interest margin on resi mortgages turned to leveraged investments they ultimately didn't understand to boost their ROE. And lest anyone thinks I sound uncaring, I professionally have been a large lender to HBOS for many years and my firm still stand to lose a lot from those loans to HBOS.
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This "credit crisis" is not some artifact from outer space that we poor Earthling observers can merely observe while powerless to remedy the situation.
It was caused by crass financial mismanagement. The people that have caused the current "crisis" have paid themselves extraordinary bonuses, and will be laughing all the way from the Bank.
Time to hold these people accountable.
And as for Gordon Brown and his "Sound Finances" ... well it was always just a slogan. A cosy understanding between incompetant government and ineffectual media.
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4. The independence debate died when the oil that is so vital to Salmond's economic masterplan, started to plummet from its $147 peak. It's down to $88 today.
(The Grant Thornton forecast of a "£4.4bn surplus" was based on prices staying above $120, by the way.)
The independence debate was already struggling when repeated polls on independence continue to show that there has been no increase in support since the election, despite endless attempts by SNP and arch-nat alike to stir up resentment.
Actually, you can probably claim that the debate never started as the National Conversation (the 'Nat Con' to you and me) proved when it closed down after fewer than 0.1% of the population bothered to participate.
Can someone please direct me towards one of the 'big' petitions as I'd like to see if more than 0.1% of the population have signed up there. Many thanks.
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Brian,
Frankly, I am glad Llyods-TSB is thinking about buying out HBOS. Although most commentators say HBOS is sound, in the present market, depositors such as me may have started to withdraw their cash from our HBOS accounts. I feel sorry for BOS employees though, I have a few friends who work for the bank, at least their part of the business was sound.
In addition, note one commentator on BBC24 said HBOS was sourcing cash to keep it going at 5% above base rate, an indication something was seriously wrong, even if it was only market sentiment towards HBOS.
BOS might have had a great history, but I don't care a hoot about who owns what so long as the money I have deposited is safe and I can get it when I need it. If, Lloyds-TSB can ensure this I am quite happy. Selfish, well maybe, but it's how I feel. Sadly, I think RBS is next on the list.
Once all this is over, I may shift what is left of my cash to that other Scottish Bank, HSBC, at least it looks sound.
William1957.
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7. It's all an English conspiracy! You heard it here first, folks!
8. Actually, it was only #60m. Salmond expected all the councils to cough up another #40m of their own money.....but that wasn't going to stop him taking the credit for this fantabulous 'SNP' generosity.
That this paltry sum would only have financed a mere 2,000-3,000 houses, having almost zero effect on the housing market, is obviously irrelevant.
Yet another fantabulous SNP claim expected to be financed from small change.
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#5 - it's nothing to do with the UK government.
#7 - yes, that's right. As ever, England is the source of any and all ills that assail Scotland.
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Thanks for the bond market analysis of the HBOS situation. The reality is however that the business model at HBOs was flawed although to a lesser extent than that of NRK. "speculators" such as myself identified this at he time of th NRK debacle and have been acively shorting the stock since then. I am amazed that the mangement, regulator, BOE and politicians have done little over the past year to force HBOS to identify its shortcomings. Reliance on wholesale funding (short-term) to fund mortgages (long-term) has proved to be suicidal for both NRK and HBOS and the First Minister embarassed himself last night on Newsnight talking rubbish about the super levels of ther capital ratios.
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Brian
I am going to go off at a bit of a tangent here. It seems to me that the current banking crisis will exacerbate the recession we are facing and that UK plc is heading into fairly bleak economic times.
The UK has a heavy reliance on the banking industry and financial sector and even once we get out of the current mess, I suspect that this sector will have shrunk substantially. This is bad news for the UK economy as a whole, Edinburgh to an extent but it will be London which will suffer most (it will be interesting to see the impact on the funding of the 2012 Olympics!). Any way, it would be intersting to see what impact this might have on the economic case for independence. Will we see oil revenues help bail out an ailing UK economy again (shades of the early 80s)? I wonder if Alex Salmond is running the figures as we speak!
From an economic perspective, my view for some time has been that Scotland is better placed than the rest of the UK to withstand the coming challenges of energy and other resource shortages. The prospect of a shrinking economy in the south east of England re-inforces this view. The argument that London and the south east of England are subsidising the rest of the UK will be more difficult to make over the next few years.
So far as the UK banking sector is concerned, I think the current crisis will acclerate the changes in the world order and, in particular, the shift in power from the developed west to China and India. As I see it, the US and UK financial institutions are engaged in "playing" with Chinese, Arab, Indian etc money. Given the current mess we are in, presumably these people won't be so keen to allow us to manage their money any more. We may all have to start doing something useful for a living rather than shuffling other people's money back and for and taking a small slice each time!
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12. Thank-you for your clarity.
Yes, thats about spot on.
Can we expect an imminent response from the snp, that their flagship policy is DEAD.
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#12 Reluctant-Expat
After the mis-information you posted on a previous blog, I am mis-trustful of your claims.
I have just Googled the "Nat Con" and it has not closed down. The last post on it is dated 16 Sep.
Your cavalier attitude to facts does not improve the enjoyment of reading these blogs.
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Surfaceman
You are quite correct. He must be regretting that interview which I thought was surprisingly lacking in confidence. Perhaps he realises that the economic arguments for independence are falling apart.
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The old saying used to be that when America sneezes the rest of the world catches a cold. No one country can insulate themeslves against this, let alone a bank, merged or not.
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This financial fiasco is being caused individuals playing the market for their own benefit by "shorting"
"A technique used by investors who think the price of an asset, such as shares, currencies or oil contracts, will fall. They borrow the asset from another investor and then sell it in the relevant market.
The aim is to buy back the asset at a lower price and return it to its owner, pocketing the difference. Also shorting. "
These traders are on a winner as the Governments can not afford for them to go under. We as tax payers are the ultimate losers as usual. No word of General Election yet!
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#12 Reluctant
Re your persistent misrepresentation that the National Conversation has supposedly closed.
Much as that would suit the arch-unionist fraternity, yourself included, whose cynical disregard for Scotland's aspirations and blind adherence to the anachronisms of Brirish Rule will be ultimately be exploded through constructive discourse in specific relation to our national aspirations, and the new confidence that, along with the performance of our Holyrood Government, will engender.
The official forum run by the Scottish Government, which is what you are doubtless referring to in your ill conceived pronouncements, remains very much operational.
Is it any wonder that is no longer the solitary focus for comments on independence, when the debate has so rapidly developed as to be the overriding subject of discussion on every virtually every political blog in the country - not least this one???
Indeed, as an independence supporter, I for one specifically choose to focus my political interests and comments on prominent media blogs of this type, where arguments are heard and debated by a typical cross-section of society in the context of daily events - as opposed to debating exclusively with those who have logged on specifically to discuss independence.
In this way, and through many other forums and outlets, the National Conversation has evolved to encompass this and other leading media blogs.
In other words, you are, and continue to be a participant in the process of a historic political sea change which you seek to deny is even taking place!
How very New Labour of you!
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A few contributors have asserted that the independence debate is now closed because (paraphrase) the global economy proves that countries are interlinked and none can stand alone.
Interesting.
I presume then, that what we should all be advocating is for a strenthened EU, which will then merge with the US leading to a fial world government under the UN?
If no country can stand alone - Forward to world government!!!!
PS. For anyone who might not understand, this is irony.
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#12, I think your memory is failing. At the time Grant Thornton made their estimate of a 4.4Bn surplus, oil was cheaper than it is now - so they could not have predicated their forecast on the assumption that it 'remain above $120' because it was not above $120 and at that time never had been above $120. Furthermore, the spot price of oil can go down as well as up - but as we're depleting it far quicker than it's being created, in the long term it's going to go up.
Arguments about independence should have nothing to do with oil anyway. Scotland is an (exactly) average sized nation with an (exactly) average sized population. If independent we would be 112th of 221 on population.
Furthermore, as a nation, Scotland is well above average for wealth and for GNP per person; even in Europe we're above average. So oil is an irrelevance - sure, it's nice to have, but we'd be better off independent even if we didn't have it.
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HBOS is in a different league in terms of its innate market weakness compared to RBOS.
HBOS has a whole stack of unsold cash raising shares sitting with the very Merchant Bank underwriters who are in the poo over Lehman's and no doubt spread betting on their risk. Dial in the probable collapse of AIG who insure billions of pounds of mortgages against default and HBOS asset base does not look that smart.
RBOS sold all its recent £18 million share issue to existing shareholders. Used its profit this year to write down a shed load of sub prime mortgages, is in a far stronger position and still has bits it does not want of ABN to sell off along with Direct Line, Tesco Bank and other bits and bobs. The reality is the only banks that can afford RBOS are all in the same state; even the mighty HSBC is not looking too clever at present and Santander are stretched absorbing Alliance and Leicester while sniffing around Nationwide. EU competition peple would probably get a bit iffy if Santander had another go at absorbing RBOS though the banks do have historical ties.
So RBOS vs HBOS is like comparing chalk and cheese.
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Brian,
Interesting post from corporationtax@16. Does this mean that HBOS was not as sound as we were led to believe?
Best Wishes,
William1957.
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I would invite all to witness the stance of some of the (self-styled) unionists posting here.
In the midst of global financial turmoil with serious consequences for all of us, they do not show the slightest concern for ANY Scottish institution - but are wholly absorbed in the hastening of any catastrophe that have an outside chance of fall-out implications for the SNP, and that they desperately hope would swing the political pendulum back in their favour!
And this is in the face of forces over which we in Scotland have little if any control - where the potential demise of a major Scottish financial institution is welcomed as a potential blow to Scotland's future prospects.
These people - and well we know the views of some who post here - are not merely the "opponents of 'nationalism'" - they are the enemies of Scotland.
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Much as I have sympathy with the 'Scottish' element here, the problem is that as soon as they merged with Halifax, which crossed the rubicon from 'Building Society' to a 'plc' Bank, well they lost control of their own destiny..
Rather like Manchester United, which now, following the 'sell-out' to 'plc' followed by US takeover, has as much connection with Manchester as, well, okay, not the best example...
But I'm afraid that if one wants to protect a 'national interest' becoming a 'plc' is not the way to do it.
Other readers may enjoy reading the book 'The Corporation' by Joel Bakan - mere things like national pride and human benefit count for nothing when the share price is the sole determinant of success.
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I don't think that what is happening to the banking sector weakens the economic argument for independence. The banking crisis will, in my view, affect the UK as a whole more than Scotland.
The oil price may be affected by a worldwide recession causing a softening in demand but this will temporary. There is only so much oil in the ground. Whether the oil price is at US$90 or US$145 is not the point. You have to look at the long term picture. In my view, long term it will rise. US$200 in the next couple of years is not impossible.
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Do you think we will ever be able to have a debate without bring party politics into it! I know politics is in every aspect of life, but since we seem to have our identity pretty well hidden, i feel we don't need to be so tribalistic! I hope we are well hidden, otherwise my boss my be upset! I'm not always on message! Can we not try and avoid the independence issue for the day as well, gets quite tiresome it being dragged into every subject!
Lets not blame The Halifax for The Bank of Scotloand woes, they are both big boys, and both knew what they were getting into!
Their control systems and investment strategy are their own issue to some extent, although it does have an effect on their customers! Investments may go up as well as down and if any serious error has been made then maybe the shareholders should hold a special meeting!
I am getting a bit fed up with all these investors taking risks, then expecting help if they fail! Do i get a cut of their profit?!
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#15 GlasgowGooner
In fact it is reported that UK legislative change will be required to permit the creation of such a large financial institution as the combined banking companies would constitute. Furthermore, it is reported that the UK PM has been involved in the matter.
There would appear, therefore, to be no reason to accept that, as you assert, this has nothing to do with the UK government.
The arrangement which the UK government is apparently encouraging is one which would appear to be more in the interests of the UK housing market than in the interests of the Bank of Scotland. The financial stability of the UK is, therefore, being given higher priority than the Scottish financial sector, which is apparently about to be sacrificed for its sake.
This may seem to be satisfactory from your English nationalist point of view, but it does not suit me.
Under these circumstances I will move my accounts if this proposed English spiv-speculator takeover of a Scottish institution goes ahead.
The sooner Scotland is independent and is in a position to protect its own essential interests properly the better.
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#28 Dougie-Dubh
I agree with the points that you make.
Developments yet to unfold may turn out to be of such a character that they will strengthen the SNP's case for independence.
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# 4
I've made the point several times here in the recent period that real independence hasn't been on the SNP's agenda (or anybody else's for that matter) for some time. It's been "'independence' within the EU" for over 20 years now which is no independence at all really. A small country like Scotland would have less freedom to enact change in peoples' lives than say, a local council of 30 years ago. Scotland's significant economic interests like oil, finance and whisky are effectively externally owned and controlled too - witness what can happen in a few short days to HBOS.
What Scotland/Britain needs is a parliament/government able and willing to stand up to global capitalism in the interests of her people. There may just be a wind of change brewing up.
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The Evening Standard reveals that Eric Joyce - the Falkirk MP and John Hutton's PPS - is to step down from his government role after the Labour Party conference.
It looks like there might be a growing Scottish dimension to the Labour revolt.
Interesting times!
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# 28 Dougie-Dubh
"These people - and well we know the views of some who post here - are not merely the "opponents of 'nationalism'" - they are the enemies of Scotland."
You have hit the nail right on the head.
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I'm quite fed up with the expression, "economic slowdown". It treats us all like fools. If food, fuel and energy have risen well into double figures, why is inflation still at 4.7%? We are simply being fed a load of doo doo.
As to the HBOS thing, there's not a week goes by when I don't receive an offer of a huge personal loan from this mob. My son, a student with almost zero income gets them too. Is that 'fundamentally sound"? No, it sure isn't. HBOS is a crude and insensitive monstrocity. It's branches have no real managers ie., someone who can speak with authority. they are in effect, mere money shops. Managers and staff are told the must sell, sell and sell loans, mortgages and insurance. Never mind whether the poor suckers can pay it back or not and if they don't pay each month they can slap 'penalty charges' onto the debt to make it even more impossible to break free of it. The day of the old, firm but fair, 'friend for life' bank manager is gone. Don't get me started on, 'buy to let'. What a nasty, greedy little concept that was. I shed no tears for those who bought into that. And yet, the BBC still happily shows that God-awful, 'Homes Under the Hammer'
So, HBOS has messed up it's own bed and now seeks to bring in another bank to sleep on it. Far from being a, 'stronger and more sound force', we'll find a huge fiscal catastrophy that even the Bank of England can't bail out.
I closed all my HBOS accounts today. Do I hear you cry, 'feartie'??? Quite right, I am feart and everyone else should be too. Any bank that can have 50% off the value of its shares is NOT, 'basically sound'. We are not heading into, 'a recession' we have long passed that. We are on the verge of depression and that is a whole different ballgame. And if you don't believe me just have a look at how big Lehman Bros, Fannie Mae and her mate Freddie, AIG and Merrill Lynch are then tell me that we are just having a wee credit crunch.
It'll soon be time people for us to get ourselves a box of apples to sell on street corners. I'm one step ahead, I know the words of, 'Buddy Can You Spare a Dime'.
Brown and Darling, you have lingered here in this place too long to have done any good, I say to you, Go in the Name of God GO! (apologies to Big Ollie Cromwell)
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Of course it is tempting to say here comes England (Lloyds) riding to save Scotland (HBOS) yet again. But I won't cos all these bellweather scots will shout - at least while oil is over $10 per barrel. Yes folks that was the price of oil less than 10 years ago.
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I agree this should not be a party political matter. To suggest , as post 32, does, that this is all about sacrifing Scotland for English financial security is farcical.
HBO's was going under, the Lloyds TSB merger may save it. With that, so will the jobs of thousands of people in Scotland be saved. It will ensure the savings of millions of people in Scotland are protected as well as their mortgages.
I am far from a fan of the banks, think they are greedy organisations that make excessive profits at the expense of their customers. However, this is as serious as it gets and help from anywhere should be welcomed.
Thisis too serious to play party politics
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#34
Hello there,
The Nationalists are offering the Scottish public more independence then what we currently have. The Unionist Parties are all Pro-European. If Scotland is to be apart of the European Union by default should we not at least be a member in our own right? The Nationalists are offering the Scots to stand as equals in the European Parliament, to the rest of the world.
because Scotland is small in size that is not a disadvantage. It's an advantage. Our size allows our country to gain more representatives, similar to Denmark etc, that will benefit the whole country.
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I suppose the death of the huge Lehman Brothers bank means that the case for an independent USA is lost.
The Halifax takeover of BOS proved to be a disaster for the average customer as they very quickly became some sort of half bank/half building society, their counter service was appalling and their Edinburgh "headquarters" was a sham. I long ago moved all my interests to RBOS, Clydesdale and Lloyds.
This crisis has no effect on the arguments for or against Independence apart from pointing out that being an adjunct to a UK economy which has exploded because it was based on inventing money and buying and selling debt is dragging Scotland down with it.
All the other small independent European countries with fleet of foot and flexible economic regimes bases on energised and productive economies will sail on hardly touched.
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No 39..I'm not sure how merging HBOS and Lloyds-TSB will save thousands of jobs. Won't it actually mean more or less all the TSB jobs going? Then just wait how quickly the new HBOS-Lloyds-TSB elephant gets stuck in with their 'restructuring plans' with mass closures of 'uneconomical branches'. They'll want to remain competitive! Haha, with a bank that size there will be NO competition and then we'll see RBS and Barclays and Clydesdale falter.
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#34 jam804
Yes you've made the point before that Scotland won't have "real independence" while staying in Europe.
On your definition, the UK doesn't have independence either.
Most supporters of independence are quite happy for Scotland to have the same level of independence as other European countries, so you're not making much of a point.
"What Scotland/Britain needs is a parliament/government able and willing to stand up to global capitalism in the interests of her people."
Sorry, but the current economic crisis shows how powerless a small country like the UK is in the face of international finance. We need to be part of a larger Union like Europe in a globalised world.
The UK is too big for the "wee" things - education, health, taxation etc, but too wee for the "big" things - international trade, regulation of the financiers, macro-economics.
If all you're offering is Britain in the 1950's then thanks, but no thanks.
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Interesting to note that the proposed merger is between two SCOTTISH companies.
Both HBOS plc and Lloyds TSB Group PLC (the former TSB Group PLC) are registered in Scotland, and we will soon have two banking players of real size - the other being RBS, of course - perpetuating Scotland's status as the bankers of the United Kingdom [and the former Empire].
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#39 jordanbasset
I agree that Rich_Hall has it wrong. All these banks and financial institutions are multi-national in their ownership. I'd prefer that the new bank had its HQ in Scotland because of its implications for jobs, but failing which, I'll settle for a European HQ (England is part of Europe).
The merger of BoS and Halifax seems to have had a flawed business model which relied too much on the Halifax idea of borrowing too heavily from the money market to invest in the collapsing commercial property market.
The sad reality is that businesses with a poor business model don't survive. Scottish or UK regulation wouldn't have solved the problem, as the money would simply have moved to a deregulated area. The EU, however, is big enough to ipose better regulation. The problem is, of course, that the neo-liberal philosophy dominant within the OECD and the World Bank, still dominates all of the Westernised world.
That the permanent members of the (IBRD) World Bank directorate are 2 each from the US, UK, France, Germany and Japan.
The IBRD website has this proud boast as to it's activities "IBRD became a major player on the international capital markets by developing modern debt products, opening new markets for debt issuance, and by building up a broad investor base around the world of pension funds, insurance companies, central banks, and individuals."
"Modern debt products" are, of course, the derivatives which have parcelled up bad debt and caused the crisis.
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For anyone who is technically interested, the most recent data I have from CREST is that around 5% of HBOS equity was currently out on loan - ie in the hands of shorters or "financial speculators" such as myself. This is not enough to bring down the UK's largest mortgage bank. No, the really interesting feature of the shareholder register has been steady selling since the rescue rights issue from none other than traditional long only fund managers many of whom are based north of the border. If any of you bloggers are pension fund trustees or union members, ask to see the trading records for the pension scheme - any fund manager wishing to keep his job will have been selling the **** off HBOS and we should expect nothing less from them.
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#28 Dougie-Dubh
"are not merely the "opponents of 'nationalism'" - they are the enemies of Scotland".
What a load of fustian nationalist rant that is. Who are you to speak for 5M Scots as if they support what you say.
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Brian,
This is a bit off topic, but I feel I must reply to a couple of your posters.
Those who have read the few posts I have made on your blogs will know I remain to be convinced of the case for independence. However, if it comes I will work to ensure it is a success because my family's future would depend on it, and it would be the democratic and settled decision of the Scottish people. To describe a sceptic such as me as an "enemy of Scotland" is an insult.
I take exception to the posters @28 and @36. The real enemies of the Scottish people are those who are so convinced of their own rightness, and intolerant of the views of others that they brook no opinions other than their own. The posters @28 and @36 are examples of such.
Best Wishes,
William1957.
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30. At 5:18pm on 17 Sep 2008, nedafo wrote:
I don't think that what is happening to the banking sector weakens the economic argument for independence. The banking crisis will, in my view, affect the UK as a whole more than Scotland.
The oil price may be affected by a worldwide recession causing a softening in demand but this will temporary. There is only so much oil in the ground. Whether the oil price is at US$90 or US$145 is not the point. You have to look at the long term picture. In my view, long term it will rise. US$200 in the next couple of years is not impossible.
It will affect England more, but it may also have a big effect on Scotland. Abbey in Glasgow are already shedding jobs, now we will have more with this merger. When Halifax merged with BoS, the Halifax branch was shut. We have a Lloyds TSB practically next door to HBOS in my town, no surprises what will happen.
What is important is how many jobs in the Scottish financial sector are affected.
In my opinion this has little to do with the independence argument in unless the Scottish financial sector is seriously damaged in the long term.
#28 I agree with your argument that some people are hoping for a disaster to further their argument, and that is rather childish. But to class them as "enemies of Scotland" is a bit strong. What will you do, line them up against the wall?
#24 Nice irony, but in fantasy land a single world government would be good, if the world grew up and stopped fighting each other.
But enough fairy stories for one day, we've already Nick Clegg's earlier on.
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#39 jordanbasset
The failure of UK regulatory authorities to protect sound financial institutions such as HBOS against repeated short-selling English spiv speculation at a time when this was appropriate is responsible for this situation.
The UK authorities have chosen not to protect HBOS, which was known to be particularly and repeatedly targeted by such speculators. Labour politicians are visibly delighted with the outcome which has been produced. The argument that Scotland would not be viable economically as an independent state is currently too weak to protect the UK state against the SNP. Logically, this problem for unionists is at least theoretically capable of resolution by utilizing the mechanisms of the UK state that regulate the markets and control the economy to undermine that viability.
If the financial-services industry of Scotland is not protected, that damages the Scottish economy. The UK government is choreographing the proposed take-over of a major Scotland-based financial institution by a major England-based financial institution under cover of the credit crunch. This proposed take-over can only be contemplated by both companies because of undertakings apparently given by the UK government to introduce legislation to remove the regulatory obstacle currently preventing it. The UK PM's fingerprints are all over this grand larceny, this demonstrably reprehensibly unprincipled appropriation of a Scottish financial institution at a rock-bottom price as a result of market manipulation looked upon approvingly by UK regulatory authorities to the benefit of "UK plc" at the expense of Scotland and its right to choose its own constitutional future.
This will backfire if the SNP, which is more than capable of exposing and explaining these matters to the electorate, takes advantage of the situation to advance its case for independence with renewed vigour, armed with further evidence of what we can expect to happen to the Scottish economy during and beyond the current difficult economic circumstances if Scotland remains within the UK.
Within the UK more and more of our enterprises and of the livelihoods of our people will be swallowed up in this way and taken south to England if Scotland does not provide itself with the constitutional means to protect itself in appropriate ways. The more Scotland retains economic viability as an independent entity the more jobs it can provide for those who live here. The more that viability is reduced to serve the political purposes of unionist politicians the less it is able to do that and the more it becomes suitable as little more than a depository for those who do not need to earn a living here.
Independence means protecting jobs. Independence means protecting and nurturing the financial and other institutions of this country rather than sacrificing them and the livelihoods of our people to the interests of "UK plc".
The constitutional future of Scotland is no mere party-political matter. It is a matter of national survival and as such is not one to be brushed aside because those whose loyalties lie elsewhere find it distasteful or inconvenient to confront the allegations that are justly brought against them and those whom they seek to support.
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#12 and #14 Grow up if thats possible!
Since this is going/has created the biggest mortgage lender in the UK can the monopolies commission allow this to happen and what about the EU?
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Dougie-Dubh! You have nailed Reluctant-Expat over his lie about the National Conversation. You are following in Bighullabaloos footsteps in exposing this Unionist. I'm proud of your efforts.
I'm amazed at the glee Reluctant-Expat takes in trashing Scotland. I don't know if he has any position of power or influence, or ever has, but his views are truly frightening.
Freedom
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I'm beginning to give a little credence to the "conspiracy theory" that the russians are manipulating an already problematic situation to hit back at the UK government for a series of what they perceive as insults - support for georgia - the guy poisoned in London - the BP contract etc
but then I'm probably paranoid
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It sounds like this is a good deal for the taxpayer, which is the most important thing. Independence isn't relevant to this merger; it would have gone through even if Scotland were independent, given the SNP's vision of a low-tax, flexible economy. 'Flexible' includes allowing stuff like this to happen. I expect some of the Irish and Icelandic banks will go the same way.
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This comment has been referred to the moderators. Explain.
The criminal failure of UK regulatory authorities to suspend short-selling of shares in financial companies has allowed Halifax Bank of Scotland to become a victim of mischievous short-selling speculation conducted by those who have no interest in the welfare of the Scottish financial-services industry.
Steps should be taken now by the UK regulatory authorities to prevent any repetition of anything of this nature by immediately suspending the short-selling of shares in financial companies, as has happened in the United States.
The UK government should be held accountable for failure to do so and for failure to prevent what has happened to the Bank of Scotland, the oldest commercial bank in Britain and the first bank in Europe to issue paper currency A venerable and sound financial institution deserves better than to be treated in this way.
I for one will neither forgive nor forget what has happened in this case. This is a scandal of the first order. The sooner this UK government is removed from office the better. The sooner Scotland is removed from the tender mercies of all UK governments the better.
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#43 oldnat.
Yes I make the point over because others here proclaim "independence" as the panacea for all that ails us and also for the fact that discussion of independence takes place largely in a vacuum. And I agree, the same lack of independence does hold true for Britain and for that matter Germany and France (as you yourself have pointed out previously) - at face value at least. The difference with these larger economies is that they can influence decisions at the EU to a far greater extent that any small country could do.
On your second point I disagree. I believe in national democracy as I would have thought a nationalist (at least one of moderate views) would. Submerging your nation's interests to that of a larger one (or group of) such as the EU is the antithesis of national democracy and independence. Of course that doesn't preclude international cooperation that benefits all parties.
I don't get your reference to the 50's unless it is a bash at undermining my argument. Lets get something straight. The EU is a neo-liberal organisation. It is about opening up national economies to global penetration in the interests of big capital and it's policies are also a major problem facing developing countries. For example, the EU doesn't like organisations like our NHS. It wants it opened up to competition (ie privatisation) like the way it has been forced upon the Post Office and the outcome is always bad for the interests of ordinary people.
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Whatever may be said about the causes of the merger which is to be announced officially today, I understand, I think that it may be fair to say that it leaves a bad taste in the mouth. When the job losses and the disposal of assets start to occur, Scotland is going to be less happy still, I suspect. The general suspicion, which the First Minister is doing nothing to allay, will be - will it not? - that something is very wrong here and that we have been robbed.
In its prominent position on the Mound, where none can fail to see it, will be the visible shape of the destruction of the Bank of Scotland. This fine and handsome building, the headquarters of the organization that is about to be hanged, drawn and quartered as if to demonstrate to Scotland that we are powerless here as citizens of the United Kingdom, will, presumably, now be surplus to requirements. As it cannot be taken south, what happens to it now? What happens to its staff? What happens to us?
What happens to my bank branch? What happens to my bank accounts? I strained to accept and tolerate the Halifax/Bank of Scotland arrangement. I shall not trouble to try to accept and tolerate the Lloyds/Halifax one. I shall move to another bank. The Bank of Scotland has been spirited away, as everything that is Scottish is spirited away over the generations. Soon Scotland will be an empty shell of a country, like the building on the Mound. The parliament building at the bottom of the Royal Mile won't make a jot of difference unless we take our country back.
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#42 - crazyislander
Your comment's a few years too late. As I recollect, Clydesdale has indeed ALREADY "faltered", think it was taken over way back, by some Aussie outfit.
Regarding the politically-biased majority of comments on this subject, perhaps I could paraphrase: "it's the market, stupid!"
Despite Messrs Bush, Brown, Salmond, et al - you can't buck the market!
Now, back to my Adam Smith book....
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# 58 scot-free
SEE MY 59!
It's the market st*p*d!
It ain't an English plot - it's what happens when banks (ANY bank) throws money at just ANYONE! They sent credit cards out with the junkmail like confetti, they granted mortgages without old-fashioned precautions, e.g. checking the borrower has more than an even chance making the repayments. Fancy a holiday abroad that you really cannot afford? Don't worry, the bank will fund it!
To compound all that, the banks THEN trade these debts with each other, but without even knowing the full extent of the red ink!
Until it dawned - as it dawned on the rest of us much earlier - that the emperor was naked!
The banks went to the casino with OUR money. They lost. And who pays for their greed and supidity? We do of course!
But please, DO spare me your sentiment for HBOS - they're as guilty as ALL of the other plc banks. It's the employees I feel for.
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The BBC yet again are simply monkeys for the will of the Labour government in Westminster. This whole ATTACK by Labour on the Scottish people was hatched as long as 1 week ago.
As was pointed out yesterday morning (Wed 17 Sep), Gordon Brown was at a party with top executives from Loyds TSB and agreed to the takeover of HBOS at that time. GB knew very well that this would be enough to spark Loyds' speculators into attacking HBOS shares and indeed this resulted in unprecedented fluctuations in the share value over the last two days, effectively sealing HBOS's fate.
The motive for this is simple. The end of Scottish bank notes and a sinister attack on Scottish independant thinking. It is well worth noting that The Royal Bank of Scortland also received considerable attacks over the last few days and the BBC reported rumours that this too could be taken over.
If Brown thinks that the Scottish people will take this lying down, he should think again!
Regards,
A very angry nationalist,
Bongo.
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No problem.
When Scotland becomes independent, we'll create another trully Scottish bank, just as the BoE is a trully English bank.
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Some of the absurd posts here by the extreme nationalists who fail to understand anything about modern economics and global business seriously undermine their claim that they could be trusted to run an independnet Scotland. Seeing an "English" conspiracy behind everything that happens is a sure sign of their insecurity too.
BOS, as soon as it merged with Halifax, ceased to be the "Scottish" institution that is being so tearfully mourned on here by some. It was a globalised bank like any other. The takeover by LloydsTSB is simply another example of the sort of deal which keeps the whole global economy afloat and growing; it is not a "bail-out" by England, the neutering of calls for Scottish independence or a plot by the unpopular Labour government to see off the SNP - it is business, pure and simple. Trying to make pathetic political points, one way or the other, over what will be, for thousands of employees, financial insecurity over their jobs in these troubled times, is in extremely poor taste.
No doubt corporate traders and short-sellers in HBOS stock helped to precipitate the woes of the bank, but they wouldn't all be English - a huge number of Scots work within the City of London (I should know) and they do anything they can to make money just like everybody else there. National loyalty and business sentiment only make sense to those whose jobs don't depend on it. That was how the Union some of you hate so much came about in the first place!
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#50 Thats quite a conspiracy theory to put forward that this whole thing has been stage managed by GB and his cronies. It does however make sense as there does not seem to be any way for GB or DC to stop the runaway train that is Scotland. It pretty hard to think that a government would do such things but then you only have to look at the questions raised about the Pan Am bombing and 911.
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# 61 et al
I think Scotland has more to fear from knee jerk nationalist views that move from issue to issue putting a big clumsy populist sticking plaster over it. Government is about strategically dealing with a range of issues for the good of the country not conning the nation by chucking small pots of our money at issue after issue to make false claims and grab a few newspaper headlines. The Concordat is what it says on the tin, an absolute 'con' and this and many other actions by this Government are shortly going to bite the Scottish people on the proverbial. What a bighullabaloo we are witnessing!
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This has the feeling of that day on September 11th - when the plane hit the first tower, then as the shock subsided another plane hit the next tower.
Not quite the same horror with HBOS and RBS but certainly a big shock all the same (and I don't work for them). This is the end of an era and the financial sector of Scotland has been dealt a major blow with the fall of our own twin towers of commerce.
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I notice that one or two of you seem to be concerned regarding the Independence debate. There is no need to worry the Independence debate will only die down when Scotland becomes Independent.
Independence will happen, and no amount of negative wishful thinking is going to change that.
The key thing to remember is that –
"Just because you don't want something to happen, doesn't mean it won't."
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To all doubters, please search for Gordon Brown Lloyds TSB in Google, then look at the Telegraph article.
GB and co changed the law overnight to allow Lloyds TSB to takeover HBOS.
I wonder how much was involved in that one???
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"It's an English plot to destroy Scotland!"
"It's akin to 9/11!"
The arch-nats again show what a bunch of silly little children they are.
No wonder Salmond wants to give under-16s the vote, they are his core support!
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Re post 63, spot on.
For some to suggest this was all a plot by G.B. makes we wonder what people are smoking out there.
Do some honestly believe in these troubled economic times that Gordon Brown conspired with Lloyds to bring down one of the biggest banks in the country. Get real, the effects of the problems re HBOS are nationwide, not just restricted to Scotland. It makes the whole economy even more fragile. To suggest G.B. would actively plot to achieve such a thing is riddiculous.
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28. Good to see Dougie-dubh has joined Bigfussaboutnothing in the padded room!
Yes, indeed everyone. "If you are an opponent of nationalism, you are an enemy of Scotland."!
And I stand corrected that the mighty Nat
Con has recently re-opened although, sadly, only one solitary blog is open to comment and all the old message boards have been locked. Although you can still clearly see that less than 0.1% of the population has bothered to join in.
However, good news, everyone! The relaunched website is sticking to form and is now drawing in an average 2 posts a day. In fact, a stunning, historic and all-round fantabulous total of 59 comments have been posted in the past month!
(We shall not compare that mighty achievement to the 70+ comments already submitted to this article in the last 21 hours. That would be unfair on the young nats.)
Yes, I have been firmly put in place that the National Conversation is not a wash-out, a total waste of taxpayers money or a clear indicator of the apathy towards this latest doomed independence campaign.
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#62 HughEdinburgh
Good idea! We'll simply start a brand new multi-billion funded bank, state-owned of course, need somewhere to stash the oil money.
It'll be a trully (sic) Scottish bank, and we'll call it...... The Bank Of Scotland. Oh, just a minute.....
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Gordon Brown sold HBOS down the river, and in doing so 24,000 Scots will now lose their jobs.
Gordon Brown actively encouraged Lloyds to takeover HBOS and so was directly responsible for the speculation in the London markets.
Gordon Brown waived competition regulations so that this takeover could happen.
Gordon Brown forced through this takeover despite the fact that HBOS had received better offers from other banks.
Gordon Brown has dealt a fatal blow to Edinburgh's financial sector. Thousands of jobs in the capital will now be lost.
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I can't beleive some people are accusing Westminster of plotting to destroy the Scottish financial sector.
It would be nice to be able to blame London for this, I know, you could all slap each others backs and say how this would neve rhave happen if we'd been independent, had fiscal autonomy etc. etc. etc......
But face it, if Gordon Brown couldn't save Northern Rock, how on earth could he mastermind the destruction of Scottish banking- how can people in one breath accuse MPs of being incompetent and then in the same breath say they are of plotting evil of machiavellian proportions?
The real evil here, if indeed it is an evil, is the market and even an independent Scotland would be subject to its demands - look abroad to Ireland and Iceland see how banking is going there.
I also note that it is one of these oft derided as moribund MPs insisting that Scottish jobs be protected in this merger. Indeed, it is none other than the Chancellor himself.
Why would he insist their jobs are protected if he is trying to destroy the industry?
But, hell, why not carry on with the "it's an English plot" line? Rational thought is clearly not welcome on this blog.
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74. What "better offers from other banks"?
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Minuend (#74), completely correct and elequently put.
The plot is so obvious, it seems only the unionists cannot get past their blindness.
We will see what he Scottish people think come the Glenrothes By-Election. If Brown thought we wouldn't get over angry about this then he is going to find out the hard way.
Saor Alba.
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Post 74, if HBOS was allowed to go under you would have been screaming, quite rightly, why did not G.B. help. Why did he not let another bank take it over, why did he block a merger.
What happened to HBOS was the result of the global money market. Yes speculators made the situation worse, as the did with Black rock, as with AIG, as with Lemain brothers, etc, that is what they do. But it was nothing to do with G.B.
I speak as some one who is not a supporter of banks, or of G.B. for that matter, but as some one belives cheap partly political point scoring in this time should not be the priority
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I posted a comment around the time of nos 6 -9 yesterday. It hasn't appeared or been removed or anything. If any of the techy folk behind this ever read it can you get in touch please? Thank you.
My original comment has pretty much been overtaken, but I saw on Newsnight that the possible new name for the bank is to be "Lloyds Halifax" I sincerely hope that is just a wind up to create a " Oh well at least they have kept the name" reaction?
In all of the comments I haven't seen anything about current account holders. I 've just had my new " Bank of Scotland" card through th door. If we end up with new stuff with anything like "Lloyda Halifax" on it my account will be moving......
I'll end on my original (lost) note
Brother can you spare a bawbee....
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Brian
I don't buy the conspiracy arguments. The spivs and speculators may have accelerated the process but the problems of HBOS are down to its business model. I suspect that HBOS management has been aware of the problems it faced for a while now and that the talks with Lloyds TSB were initiated prior to the end of last week.
I also don't agree with blaming all of this on a lack of regulation. It comes to HBOS management. Lloyds TSB management did not need regulation to adopt its business model.
I have to say that I amazed at the narrow views of some of the contributors to this blog. What is happening to HBOS is important to Scotland but, looking at the bigger picture, we are looking at a new world order. The USA is bust. The UK is bust. For the past number of years, our economies have been fuelled by borrowing cheap money from banks who in turn have are getting capital from the Chinese. The Chinese have been willing to lend so that we can buy Chinese imports. The bubble has burst. I don't know what the outcome will be but things will change big time. It is atsonishing to think that the US Fed is borrowing money from the Chinese, Middle East etc to enable it to buy/prop up its financial institutions. Effectively, the west will end up being owned by Chinese and Middle East soveriegn wealth funds. Time to learn Mandarin my friends.
I am certain that all of this is going to have a huge impact on the economic arguments for and agianst independence. The future of HBOS is, by comparison, a side issue.
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Such a comfort that that hopelessly unsound England-based bank, Northern Rock, will ultimately re-emerge from this period of financial turmoil, having been preserved by the UK taxpayer and the Bank of England, while a fundamentally sound and more substantial Scotland-based bank is wrapped up by the UK authorities to give another England-based bank "a unique opportunity" to snap it up at an artificially low knock-down price, and take it away.
What will they target next? Guess.
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Brian,
With due respect to minuend, I don't think GB sold HBOS down the river. As someone who has a substantial chunk of his life savings in HBOS accounts, I think the Llyods takeover is a good thing, that GB involved himself was necessary as no PM could stand by and watch one of the country's biggest financial institutions go to the wall.
I am no fan of Gordon Brown, but to blame him for this blow to Edinburgh's financial sector is surely nonsense. As 'planejock' pointed out @60 "it's the market". What happened yesterday is what happens to listed companies of any nationality in a global market. It wish it were otherwise, however, it is sad but true.
What was the alternative, a run on HBOS? A Northern Rock style nationalisation, ending with the gradual winding down of the business? The tax-payer picking up the tab?
I am lucky, if HBOS had gone down, I could have waited for the compensation due. Thousands, if not millions, probably could not have waited. The proposed takeover, if it goes ahead, will secure the deposits of those investors.
One final point, 24000 jobs may be lost in Scotland, though I hope sincerely they will not be, but this still leaves 46000 other jobs in other parts of the UK at risk. Are they any less important?
Best Wishes,
William1957
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Lets not forget that this Iain Gray's big day as the new Labour leader at Holyrood.
Now what did Iain Gray have to say on economics............ah, yes...........he called it "the dismal science".
Those words will forever haunt Iain Gray because many people in his own East Lothian constituency will be losing their jobs because he, Alistair Darling and Gordon Brown have collectively failed to understand how important that "dismal science" is to Edinburgh and Scotland.
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BANK ROBBERY ON THE MOUND
Witnesses to this daring heist, in which not only the contents but the entire bank have been removed are asked to look the other way, as the authorities have stated that there are no suspicious circumstances.
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HSBC expressed an interest in taking over HBOS.
Barclays expressed an interest in taking over Bank of Scotland and not the Halifax.
Lets not forget that Lloyds expressed an interest in taking over Northern Rock when it got into trouble. That didn't happen because Gordon Brown feared the loss of jobs in Labour constituencies.
Gordon Brown obviously had no such qualms over the loss of Scottish bank workers jobs.
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Oh dear Minuend - not up to speed on our Victorian icons are we?
Mr Gray's description of economics was a quotation from Thomas Carlyle - who famously used the term in response to the publications by that well known 19th Century political economist Thomas Malthus.
The more you know!
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Conspiracy????? idiots, nationalists say no more.
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85. So HBOS being taken over by one of the other 'Big 4' UK banks would not have resulted in redundancies.
Right.
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#87 labcoatlarry
One strives in vain to detect in your post any significant or even insignificant trace of rational argument based upon verifiable facts.
There is, however, abuse. Is this supposed to persuade one of something other than the inescapable fact that you are abusive?
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Its all very well saying Gordons not to blame .... but what about The Financial Standards Authority ... what is there purpose if not to protect our and the banks interests. From what ive read they either have little or no powers and what powers they have are not used for fear of upsetting the applecart. So all those people saying its just a product of the credit crunch get a grip...if you had a hole in your pocket and all your pennies were falling out you'd be quick to stop it . Are all these high flying bankers not capable of darning their pockets !!!!!
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#87 labcoatlarry
And British Unionists steer clear of conspiracy theory as a matter of high principle?
Let us not forget "the Edinburgh-Tehran Axis" and the brouhaha about a Kalashnikov.
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This take over won't be the last one since the capitalist financial bubble has burst.
http://polaris.moviments.net:8000/95-money-created-private-banks
Hold onto your hats!
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#90
You'll find that these "high flying bankers" are very good at keeping money in THEIR pockets.
All the "guilty" parties in the credit crunch and its fallout (ie those people who sold the sub-prime mortgages, those people who designed the packaged "structured investments" containing the mortgages, those people who sold those on and those people who bought them without understanding what they were buying) will have walked away with big, fat, bonuses a long time ago.
What's these high-flying bankers have done is snuck up behind us all and cut a hole in OUR pockets.
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Brian,
Rabbiehippo@90 has a point. Dealing in HBOS shares should have been suspended the moment they dropped to 88p. Whatever body is responsible for monitoring such movements, and suspending dealing if necesary, was asleep in the job here.
Best Wishes,
William1957.
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As we keep being reminded, being situated next to England without appropriate protective measures is like sitting next to a black hole. You don't want to be sucked into it, but you know that, sooner or later, everything will be.
Ask Iain Gray. He's done physics.
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I see the term "Conspiracy Theory" being used by the unionists to stifle intellectual dissent. again!
Look up the dictionary definition of 'Conspiracy' and you will see that this is what governments do on a professional basis.
con·spir·a·cy (Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[kuhn-spir-uh-see])
1. The act of conspiring.
2. An evil, unlawful, treacherous, or surreptitious plan formulated in secret by two or more persons; plot.
3. A combination of persons for a secret, unlawful, or evil purpose: He joined the conspiracy to overthrow the government.
4. Law. an agreement by two or more persons to commit a crime, fraud, or other wrongful act.
5. Any concurrence in action; combination in bringing about a given result.
Points 1 and particularly point 5 are what we are talking about here, although point 3 may be closer to the truth!
When was the last time you heard of an aggressive takeover happening within a matter of days without any shareholders or indeed the publicbeing informed about what was happening?
The evidence clearly demonstrates that HBOS was sabotaged by speculators once gordon Brown gave the go-ahead for a takeover and over ruled competition laws to pave the way for this to happen.
There was absolutely NO evidence that HBOS and indeed RBS were anywhere near failure until the last 2 or 3 days. Infact HBOS had amassed £4 Billion funding in a recent sale of shares for the very purpose of having the funds to be able to weather a storm... only the storm became the perfect storm once GB gave the go ahead last week, essentially sending in the lions.
This event is also too large and too important to Scotland for the full truth not to come out. When it does, I hope all the sceptics here finally waken up.
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Cynicalhighlander #92
Totally agree. What is happening is much, much bigger then the fate of HBOS and will not just affect the US. It will have a massive impact of the developed world. We've been spending other people's money for too long. The "re-adjustment" will be severe and will leave the world a very different place. What happened to the UK post WWII (its loss of world power status after borrowing up to the hilt from the US to finance WWII) is about to happen to the US.
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#93 Aye but as usual they will get away with it. Them and any lawyers who get involved. 'Lawyers .... never did like lawyers ... should take em outside and shoot em down like dogs !! '
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I see several Unionists feel that Nationalists are obsessed with conspiracies against Scotland and the Independence movement.
I will remind the Unionists that the UK-Government has once went further to infiltrate the Scottish National Party and undermine the Pro-Independence movement. Can you blame some Nationalists for being cautious?
Scots, in general tend to have long memories, I mean even after so many years we all remember the Tories and still we do not vote for them. However why do some Unionists miss out information from the past that may well be the reason for how things are today?
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#95 Briggen:
"As we keep being reminded, being situated next to England without appropriate protective measures is like sitting next to a black hole. You don't want to be sucked into it, but you know that, sooner or later, everything will be."
Cheer up Briggen, fortunately Stephen Hawking showed that escape from a black hole may be possible (Hawking radiation). Equally fortunately we also have an escape route!
PS Do i get a prize for using quantum physics to further the argument for independence? ;o)
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96. I see the term "Conspiracy Theory" being used by the unionists to stifle intellectual dissent. again!
Promptly followed by a full and detailed description of a conspiracy.
LOL. Post of the day.
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#100
Re: getting a prize.
I can't say one way or another - it's all a bit uncertain ;-)
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I am thinking back furiously! Was it about 1996/7 that the Halifax Building Society became a Bank? Feeling it was about then.
Anyway as a building society, it seemed to know what it was doing;staff knew their 'mortgage' business inside out and respected the individual and tried to find a deal which suited their needs.
Became a Bank and staff were floundering - they did not 'know' the banking business and they were forced into the 'sell it anyway you can situation' Morale plummetted and service ditto.
Then in 2001 came this strange merger with BOS. Prior to this, a bank which attempted to match the needs of a customer, who knew their Branch, who were well trained -at least in the Branches I was familiar with.
Get it? Post 2001, trained bankers were forced into the sell, sell, sell situation regardless of the needs of the customer. Morale plummetted. Latterly, the Halifax bittie grabbed the business sort of stuff, which had to be dealt with centrally. Local TRAINED staff by-passed - staff who knew their customers. Frustration, anger mistakes made by folk who had a pretty poor idea what they were doing and folk who knew what they wanted to do and how to do it, BUT were not allowed to.
Biggest mistake made by the BOS, was getting involved with the Halifax(an inferior bank, but reasonable Building Society)
Biggest mistake made by Halifax was becoming a bank which they were not good at and then trying to impose on a bank who did know what they were doing, so much so that many 'bankers' departed in disgust, or were 'shoved' out, by pretendy Halifax 'bankers' who had not a clue.
Cannot but feel, if the Proper Bankers had been in charge, that this situation would not have been allowed to develop. Pretendy financiers playing with money they had bought(but had no proof of purchase) and selling this on(and not providing proof of ownership). That sounds like fraud to me. Alex's description of spivs etc a bit generous maybe?
Separate the 2! Ditch the Halifax and preserve BOS.
And Brian keep me right, but is the right to print 'our' Scottish banknotes not enshrined in the Treaty of Union in 1707?
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#100 forfar-loon
Yep. You take the biscuit. Congratulations.
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Reluctant Expat #88
The "big four" UK banks become the big two in Scotland.
Barclays and HSBC don't really have any presence in Scotland, Barclays more so since its takeover of the Woolwich but HSBC has 5 branches, 1 per million people, it has more branches on the Isle of Wight
If either of them were allowed to takeover HBOS there would be far fewer jobs at risk in Scotland as there would be far less (and in the case of HSBC virutually no) overlap of branches in Scotland.
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52. At 10:25pm on 17 Sep 2008, hadrianswall wrote:
Dougie-Dubh! You have nailed Reluctant-Expat over his lie about the National Conversation. You are following in Bighullabaloos footsteps in exposing this Unionist. I'm proud of your efforts.
I'm amazed at the glee Reluctant-Expat takes in trashing Scotland. I don't know if he has any position of power or influence, or ever has, but his views are truly frightening.
Freedom
One wonders from which country Reluctant-Expat is expatriated from?
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grammar mistake
scrub second "from"
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106. I'm sorry? "Lie"?
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#109
As in "deliberate untruth".
Such as characterise your posts.
As in such howlers that are liberally peppered throughout the specious propaganda you like to pass off as informed comment.
So how about answering FaucCu's question, above?
If you can't give us a truthful answer, just make one up - we'll be none the wiser!
;-]
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