Not on top form
Nobody, truly, knows who will win the contest for leader of the Scottish Labour Party. (Or....fill in alternative title for yourselves.)
With thousands of postal votes to be counted from elected, party, union and affiliate members, it is impossible to say.
But herewith the gossip at Holyrood. It should be Iain Gray, given his relative strength in the nominations and his performance on the hustings.
But Cathy Jamieson may be coming up strongly on the rails. It is not forecast that Andy Kerr will win.
This is not utterly ill-informed chat. (Only partly.) It is based upon timing and impact.
When folk were filling in their ballot papers, Cathy Jamieson was prominent as acting leader.
Plus she was pursuing, vigorously, the case for an enhanced pay deal for public sector workers. That may not have delighted one or two entitled to vote in this contest.
Sympathetic comment
One thinks of Comrades G. Brown and A. Darling.
However, it may have gone down well with union members, particularly the substantial number who work in the public sector. Which was, of course, the purpose.
To be fair, both Iain Gray and Andy Kerr commented sympathetically on the dispute, stressing, for example, the merit in a single year deal.
But Ms Jamieson perhaps gave the issue greatest prominence.
Of course, even if she wins the union vote, that only contributes towards one third of the total.
Cathy Jamieson was on show again today, questioning the first minister. It is perhaps as well for her that the leadership contest is a postal ballot - and that the votes are in.
To be frank, she was not on top form.
She was pursuing the topic of the Glasgow SNP councillor, Jahangir Hanif. You'll recall the disclosure that, three years ago, he showed his children how to fire a Kalashnikov rifle during a visit to what was described as a "military-style" camp in the Pakistani border area.
Dismissive dealings
Councillor Hanif was suspended by the SNP.
Today's Evening Times reports comments on the issue from John Mason MP, who won the Glasgow East by-election for the SNP. Mr Mason avers that criticism of Mr Hanif contains "thinly disguised racism".
Ms Jamieson sought to pursue Mr Salmond over the issue. But she dissipated her attack by raising too many disparate elements of the controversy.
Perhaps, further, she was put off by two interventions from the presiding officer, Alex Fergusson.
To be fair to the PO, he was - rightly - reminding Ms Jamieson that her questions must address Mr Salmond solely in his role as first minister.
In any event, Ms Jamieson could have found a way round that dilemma. She could, for example, have reminded the first minister that he regularly adopts the role of speaking for Scotland - before inviting him to speak for the nation on this topic, as FM.
Mr Salmond was able to deal dismissively with what might, otherwise, have been uncomfortable for him. He described Mr Hanif's behaviour as unwise, he argued that suspension from the party was a substantial sanction.
Then he was enabled to broaden his reply into condemning racism, generally. Not Ms Jamieson's best day.
Wonder if Saturday will be any better for her?
I'm 
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~15~RS~)
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Yet again the big SNP fish fails to be savaged to death by a little Labour fishie.
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It doesn't matter who wins, Brian.
None of the candidates are of a calibre to bother Alexei Salmonella, I'm afraid.
And I can only see one direction for the Labour Party in Scotland long-term, and that's vying with the Tories for electoral irrelevance.
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"Nobody, truly, knows who will win the contest for leader of the Scottish Labour Party."
And nobody truly cares.
What is this turning into now? A debating coaching service for Cathy Jamieson? What happened to BBC "impartiality"?
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Not Ms Jamieson's best day.
you mean she had a best day?
brian are you angling for gordon browns departed spin doctors job
i just wondered what with the telling cathy what she should have said?
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Acting Labour leader Cathy Jamieson did not play an impressive role today. I felt that Jamieson has nothing else to discuss so went for petty tactics, who was she trying to impress?
Scottish Politics at its best. I believe Labour MP's have been giving their Scottish MSP's tips on dirty politics.
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#3 bighullabaloo
That's one reading, certainly, but I took it as pointing out where Ms Jamieson had missed an opportunity that a more able debater would not have missed.
In other words, it says she's not much good. You're very hard to please, bighullabaloo. I suppose you realize that.
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And the "I love Alex Salmond so very, very much!" gang move post haste onto another blog, just in case an undecided voter is wandering around the page in peace and quiet.
(I wonder how much unconditional affection they would proffer if Salmond dropped independence as a policy?)
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#6 Morris_Norris
Well, karinm (#4) agrees with my interpretation of it.
Who, apart from you, reads it the way you do?
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The art of asking the right question at FMQs is to know the given answer that makes the follow-up question relevant.
Thats an art that no opposition MSP has mastered, not even Wendy "Big Brain" Alexander achieved that - even with lipstick on.
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3 Bighellomagazine
Just took your advice and decided to track you onto this blog...it's almost surreal isn't it.
Sadly, I suspect that Labour will not be able to put up a candidate who can match Wee Alex as their A team prefer to strut their thing at Westminster or Brussels. It's all a very long way from leaders with the standing of Donald Dewar.
This leaves the floor to His Supreme Dissemblingness to gloss over the fact that one of his top people was caught firing Kalashnikovs with his children in a "training camp on the Pakistani Border". I've heard that called something else.
The idea of Alex denouncing racism makes me choke on my warm ale. His whole political raison d'etre depends upon a form of racism. One that he has to stoke up if he is to stand a chance with his referendum.
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#8 bighullabaloo
I noticed that and immediately wondered whether I was being too generous to BT. Maybe I am. Maybe no one else will read it the way I do. We shall see. Then I suppose that I shall have to admit that I am wrong. It will not be easy; it will be a struggle, but I shall try.
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#8 I read the article in much the same way as Morris_Norris, but then I don't see every BBC article as an attack on the SNP.
The piece seemed to read as a criticism of Jamieson more than anything.
But I suspect from seeing your daily, shall we say, emotive posts, that if Brian were to say Alex Slamond was a political genius, you would probably accuse him of sarcasm or elsewhere claiming Labour were a higher quality of genious.
For someone who quite clearly has an agenda in his/her posts you throw the word bias around an awful lot.
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# 7 Some of us want independence and some of us want to see how the SNP cope the first four years .... from what i can see they are not doing too bad considering.... at least they are willing to try things out ... not something the scottish labour group can do not without gordons sayso.... ive noticed there are some die hard (but probably not as tough ,but maybe the same hair as bruce willis) unionists on here that no matter what the snp do they are rubbished .... at least some of the nats on here are a bit less moderate on the comments about other partys .... certain mps/ msps i could name from other partys i like to despite their political allegiance.
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#12 Blackivar
Of course I have a biased agenda. I'm pro SNP.
You're ignoring a vital difference between me and the people I'm "throwing the word bias" at.
I don't claim to be impartial.
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Come now, Anglophone, who is the dissembler here if it is not you?
One of the SNP's top people? A local-authority councillor who has been a councillor for hardly any time at all and had not yet been elected to office at the time when the controversial photograph was taken?
I am not a member of any political party and so have no axe to grind, but I am aware that Pakistan, like any Third World country, where the rich need to provide their own protection, not least in certain frontier areas of it, is not to be judged as if it were the Home Counties or even the Gorbals. To take things out of their proper context and judge them as if they belonged in a totally different context is hardly a respectable procedure. You clearly have an axe to grind.
SNP voters that I know can hardly be described as racist because they are not English and regard their country as Scotland rather than England or Britain, as it is occasionally known south of the Border. To wish one's own country to have control over its own affairs is no kind of racism. If it were some kind of racism, practically the entire population of England would have to be convicted of it.
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#11 Morris_Norris
There are a number of things in life that can be interpreted more than one way and no one can say if any of them are right or wrong.
What I find a bit illogical is that if I interpret it differently to you then you see it as a matter of being "right" or "wrong" and naturally you must be "right" because you think it, and that automatically makes me "wrong" because I take a different view.
Why can't I just be entitled to my view without being told by you that I am "very hard to please"? If I am "hard to please" then so is karinm because she shares my view. So it shows that it's perfectly possible for two people to see it my way, as it is possible for two people to see it your way. I don't regard it as beign "hard to please" to expect an organisation who claims political impartiality to prove it by writing articles that can't be interpreted as being partisan. Is that really asking too much?
#12 Blackivar
When Brian Taylor writes an article describing Salmond as a "political genius" I'll make a decision on whether it's worthy or sarcasm or not. It hasn't happened so far, although the way Salmond is going it might soon reach the stage where no one has to say it because it will be too obvious to deny. In the meantime I'll reserve the same right to criticise in the way I see fit that you claim for yourself but don't think I'm entitled to for some reason.
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#14 Nor as I understand it do any of the journalists in the personal blogs.
Remember, this is an opinion piece not news, it would be almost impossible to imagine any editorial without some form of bias.
That you seem to be constantly outraged by this is a wonder in itself.
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Brian may have to deal with Cathy Jamieson as Labour leader some time soon. In these circumstances (where timid tip-toeing might be in his journalistic self-interest) his piece can only be described as a devastating critique of her failure to perform. His comment, that it was as well for her that the votes are in, must cut her to the quick.
The FM describes the Kalashnikov incident as "unwise" and gets away with it. He has the gall to describe criticism of the man as "racism" which will play well to the Muslim groups he so assiduously woos.
And daft Cathy lets him away with his smirk unslapped! An open goal missed.
Brian said it all, in words or by implication. Any other interpretation is either incompetent or malicious.
Not On Top Form was a rather kind headline right enough. Mine would have been: Taylor Savages Labour Hopeful.
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#17 Blackivar
Not this nonsense again!
I've answered this point before but here it is again just for you:
If these blogs are opinion pieces then why are we constantly left none the wiser as to what Brian Taylor's opinions actually are?
Is he pro-Unionist? Pro SNP? Pro-Liberal?
If so, then no problem.
Come out and say so! Let people argue back and forth knowing where he stands. He's perfectly entitled to his opinion just as we are entitled to ours.
But that isn't what we're getting in these blogs. And until we do I will continue to criticise in the way I see fit.
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#7 -- I can see by your previous posts, Reluctant-Expat, that you enjoy bashing the SNP...
I'm not a big fan myself, so I'd be interested to hear who you see as the viable political alternatives at Holyrood?
A moribund Labour Party, petrified that Scottish independence will destroy their chance of majority power in Westminster again?
A Tory Party which have written off Scotland as a serious political hunting ground, who would secretly be happy if independence brought them guaranteed Westminster dominance?
Or a timid bunch of Lib Dems too scared of dealing with Alexei to try negotiating a coalition with him? Or too keen at the time on a future Westminster deal with brother Gordon?
It seems to me that, apart from the SNP, the other parties' behaviour at Holyrood is mainly driven by their interests at Westminster. It makes a change to have a party in power in Scotland who have both eyes focussed on the Scottish landscape.
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It appears Cathy fell into an SNP trap, ie attack an individual and try to rubbish them without making a serious point.
It is a trick Ii think she learnt from the First minister. There was a serious point here, the gent in question made a very serious error of judgement and we have seen people expelled from the SNP for a lot less. But he must vote correctly on the council, ie do what he is told.
I hope whoever wins the labour vote doesn't persist with this type of debate. It is petty, mean minded and spiteful and doesn't further the cause of politics. We deserve and need better.
What a waste of an opportunity when there are so many issues the FM won't answer and needs questioned on.
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Jamieson is the best of the three; and that is rather damning for the other two. Still hoping Iain Gray gets it though; considering how unpopular Gordon Brown is at the minute, it was very thoughtful of him to try and maneouvre an inferior clone of himself in to the pretendy "Leader in Scotland" role!
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Political correctness, should she raise the issue or not, Ms Jamieson chose right, not to raise this issue at parliament, as the Brigadier would concur, the story line remains opened and we all know the press will return to this issue again.......
Collectively, more and more pressure applied to the now government........
fasten your seat-belts nats the road is dangerous ahead....
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15 Morris-Norris
Alright, you've put in my place about the apparantly low ranking officer and the Kalashnikov. It's a mountain out a molehill but that's politics. A better debater would have pressed home the advantage.
On the whole racism thing. I, like you also know SNP voters and I am usually struck by their sincerely held views. To a man/woman I would never describe them as racists. I would readilly admit however that my forays into Brian's blogs are usually provoked by what in any other context would be described as crass racist comments. Last time it was following someone's assertion that "Scottish taxpayers, unlike the English, would be happy to pay higher taxes for the greater good". These sorts of hubristic comments leak out from time to time, which leaves me wondering if people are more concerned about being not-English rather than Scottish. The term "English" is a barely concealed perjorative in many contributions...and that's amongst nice folk.
The type of people that Alex needs to win his referendum, as I've posted before, are the types who think that the screenplay of Braveheart is a historical text. The types who can be persuaded that they are occupied by a brutal force and the victims of a vast conspiracy spanning generations to deprive Scots of...well...just about everything.
Alex depends on racism a great deal and I'm sure that he will play his cards accordingly
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pattymkirkwood
Ian Gray is not a clone. He may be of inferior wit to Gordon Brown but he does have a wee bit o the Blair smarm to help appeal to,... Well i dont know who.
Dont know what they were thinking wi the donkey teeth either.
When my mates went to a stagger we all got to shoot assult rifles and play with tanks. Doesnt mean were terrorists. Think this is all a load o tripe really. It was years ago and its been dealt with. Seem to remember a pic o G Broon on front o a paper manning a rifle. Even Prince Harry has done it. Yawn Yawn Yawn out of all the issues to discuss this is it. PLEASE give Scotland some real politicians talking about real issues.
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#16 bighullabaloo
I was merely expressing a willingness to revise the view which I had taken of the matter if I found that no one shared it. That would seem to be a reasonable and indeed enlightened approach.
I fully accept that multiple justifiable interpretations of the same data are generally possible, although I do not wish to be dogmatic about that or wish to seem to be forcing on others a view of the matter with which they may not agree.
If I may say so, I find your scepticism of the media, not least the BBC, to be something with which I would not wish to dissociate myself in general. Such healthy scepticism is to be encouraged. I merely suggest that in this instance you are barking up the wrong tree. If you feel that you are barking up the right tree, no one will mind, I dare say, if you carry on barking up it.
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Re the racismm issue-
I would think that English born people living in Scotland feel a strong anti english sentiment, which has definately grown in recent months.
I don't believe this situation is reversed in England. As a scot who used to live in England I never really felt this sentiment.
Nationalism and racism are never far apart.
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A storm in a teacup. If this is the best that a potential leader can up with then it just shows what they think of Scotland.
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#27.
"Nationalism and racism are never far apart."
Speak for yourself. I am a Scottish Nationalist, racist? Never. Not in this day of age.
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#24 "These sorts of hubristic comments leak out from time to time, which leaves me wondering if people are more concerned about being not-English rather than Scottish. The term "English" is a barely concealed perjorative in many contributions...and that's amongst nice folk."
I'm afraid there's nothing "racist" about that, it's simply a statement of fact. In the modern era (let's say the last 50 years) Scotland has been *consistently* inclined to elect more left-of-centre representatives than England. The cult of Thatcherism which has ruled the entire UK since 1979 is built entirely on English votes - the Scots have rejected it more venomously with every passing election, to the point of a complete Tory wipeout in Scotland in the last-but-one Westminster election.
I say that as someone who lives in the southern half of England and has done for almost 20 years now, close to half my life. I find the English a perfectly nice and decent people, and obviously practically all of my friends are English. But to argue that they're not inherently more right-wing than the Scots - if divided crudely along geographical borders (because the nearer you get to Scotland the more the Tory votes drop off) - is to fly in the face of the simplest available facts.
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#27 mmm certainly the english people i work with/ are friends with dont think im racist. I know a SNP councillor whos english so all this racist rubbish is just that ...rubbish.... im not anti english i just dont think London is the centre of the universe, hence why i want indenpendence. If you dont like it here or how its going politically you can always move down south...... to be ran by the tories .... but then you probably wont be happy either.
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#26 Morris_Norris
"I merely suggest that in this instance you are barking up the wrong tree."
Great! I'm looking forward to hearing your proof that I'm "barking up the wrong tree."
Let's hear it.
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#27 northhighlander
I know lots of people who vote SNP. They are not what I would call nationalistic and are in no danger of being racist. They just want control of their own country so that it can become a member and full participant in the European Union upon an equitable basis. They are in favour of autonomy limited by the European Union rather than by the British Union, in which one of the member countries is dominant, a situation which one may regard as unsatisfactory without being a particularly nationalistic person or a racist for that matter.
The French word for what you call nationalists is literally translated as 'independentists'. That is what the French media call the SNP and their supporters. These enlightened European Unionist autonomist constitutional reformers will always be referred to as 'rabid nats' in the UK, however, because it suits the purpose of British Unionists who cannot discredit their arguments by reasonable means to seek to discredit them by false association with a discredited concept such as racism, which I have always found to be more characteristic of England than Scotland.
What sort of racist should one consider the SNP MSP to be who is of Pakistani origin? What sort of racists should one consider all of Pakistan to be for existing at all? Partition of India is what created Pakistan, and subsequently separation of East Pakistan from West Pakistan created Bangladesh. Are they all racists? Must I be a racist or a "rabid nat" because I am out of step with British Unionists? I don't think so.
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Cathy Jamieson is not the leader that the labour party in the scottish parliament require.
Her showing at FMs question time was abysmal, but then again will any of the other two be any better.
It also appears that the media are manipulating Mr Hanif family to further their own agenda.
Or is it that Mr Hanif's children are manipulating the media to further their mothers greviance against Mr Hanif in regards to the divorce.
The answer could be any one of the two or a combination of both.
As regards the mole in the labour ranks that leaked the wendygate story, it was suggested to me that it may have been wee Jack who was peeved at having to stand down as labour leader in the SP to make way for the coronation of hms wendyship ( TITANIC BRAIN who went down spluttering "it wisna me").
It seems a reasonable suggestion to me.
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Two points.
First, in defence of Brian Taylor. He is a first class political commentator who does an excellent job of saying what he thinks while remaining objective. His contributions to this blog are thoughtful and thought-provoking and the stats show that they generate plenty of debate. The fact that others contributors to this blog do not know what Brian's own personal political views are shows what a good job he is doing of showing impartiality and non-partisanship.
Second, in defence of Cathy Jamieson, I think she did a pretty decent job today and would be the most likely of the three candidates to cause the FM problems at FMQs. She had a quick reply when the FM congratulated George Burley and the Scotland team and she managed to press the FM on an awkward issue despite the PO's frequent interventions. It was really the PO who came to the FM's rescue.
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#24 Anglophone
I have read your response carefully and thank you for it.
I can only speak for myself, of course. My perception is that there is a concern among Scottish voters to rectify a defect in the constitutional arrangements that govern relations between Scotland and England primarily.
I honestly do not believe that the wish to have control over this beautiful and valuable country has anything to do with racism. The policy of the SNP is, after all, to share it with whoever is living here, excluding no one.
No society is perfect. It would, I suppose, be racist to imagine that one's own society is perfect. The Scots seem to me to be very far from taking that view. The SNP wants to make it better than it is, because there is something wong with it. What is wrong with it is considered to derive ultimately from the fact, as they see it, that the people who live here do not fully possess this country. Whether you agree with that view or not, it seems to me to be inappoprate to characterize it as racist. Indeed, that is a deepy hurtful accusation which is liable to be resented. The more it is levelled at the Scots, the more it will be resented. Hardly desirable.
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Ms Jamieson was pathetic and would appear to have a short memory.
Was she not herself allegedly dabbling on the the wrong side of the law concerning a crooked relative.
#18 brigadier
Nice to see you haven't lost your touch.
I would suggest your critique of the FM was somewhat unionist biased.
When are you giong to come out and admit your nationalist credentials?
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Cathy J could have come up with some more important political questions. However, I think they were right to ask questions of the councillor's behaviour with the AK (I'm not trying to spell it!)
This is an individual who may one day hope to represent his constituents and country in Government. Small things like this can and are used as ammunition (no pun intended) by opponents, especially in diplomatic situations. What if, for example, Scotland became fully independant and Mr Hanif elected as an MSP became a foreign secretary? That sort of incident can throw up all sort of problems.
For Alex Salmond to class this as a racist slur was inexcuseable. This is the sort of argument used by others over petty matters.
Had this been a Labour or Conservative councillor the SNP would have been on the attack. So it is ironic for them to cry foul over the question.
#34 has got it right. Both sides are manipulating this story for their own political ends. My opinion is that the guy has made a mistake and should resign from politics.
If you wish to enter politics, then you have to be totally transparent and avoid errors of judgement. If you make an error is such a situation - which frankly is nothing particularly wrong - then how will you deal with more serious issues?
But once again, Labour at Holyrood just cannot go for the important issues. On the other hand, Alex Salmond once again pleads victimisation.
Can our expensive MPSs get down and do some real work please?
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Scottish Nationalists racist .... eh ... we dont have the Brittish National Party here ... now they are racist ... so whos voting them onto council seats in England ?
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Just to prove I'm not a nationalist hack, can I take "37 Jake-the-saltire " to task.
Cathy jamieson did have a "crooked relative". He was a teenager lost in a world of drugs and crime like so many others in Scotland.
Cathy jamieson did her best to keep him on the straight and narrow but failed. He tried to blackmail her and she brought that to the attention of her family and the authorities. The young man in question is now dead.
Jake, bad call, Cathy Jamieson might be a Labour hack, but she's not responsible for the crimes of her relatives. She deserves the utmost compassion for the way she worked with the boy.
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Scottish Nationalists racist .... eh ... we dont have the Brittish National Party here ... now they could be portrayed as racist ... so whos voting them onto council seats in England ?
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#38 Neil_Small
If you wish to enter politics, then you have to be totally transparent and avoid errors of judgement. If you make an error is such a situation - which frankly is nothing particularly wrong - then how will you deal with more serious issues?
Any transparent labour or coservative msps come to mind
No!!
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Contributor #1: "Remember, this is an opinion piece not news, it would be almost impossible to imagine any editorial without some form of bias."
Contributor # 2: "The fact that others contributors to this blog do not know what Brian's own personal political views are shows what a good job he is doing of showing impartiality and non-partisanship."
So, which is it? It has to be one or the other. It can't be both!
Yet another logical contradiction right up there for total absurdity along with: "Scottish oil has almost run out but the Treasury will fight tooth and nail to block any attempt by the Scottish government to claim oil revenues for Scotland."
These types of absurd logical contradictions are going to be the death-knell of Labour and the Unionists in Scotland.
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Just read .... Taxpayers Alliance say Scotland are getting to much money and it needs to be stopped .... hooray bring it on ... make even more Scots want imdependence .... are these people stupid .. is Alex paying them to say these things .. i think we should be told !!!
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# 41 irnbru_addict
What I'm trying to highlight is that we all make mistakes including Mr Hanif.
There seemed little point in her attack on him.
I'm sure Ms Jamieson is a very good social worker but not a good politician.
If my post offended you then I'm very sorry
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HI Neil_Small147,
I think that you will find that Mr Hanif will never be selected as a possible msp or mp now that he has the two month suspension on his record.
Look at how labour / conservatives / liberals cover up their scandals and do not even suspend the guilty.
Until one or two of the sleaze brigade are charged and found guilty we will never stop the corruption in politics be it labour/conservative/liberal or even snp.
The proculator fiscals usual statment that its not in the public interest to persue procecution is realy them saying i will not get my knighthood if i prosecute.
It is in the public interest to procecute those in politics that are involved in sleaze.
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If Gordon Brown were to condemn American politicians and indeed current vice-presidential candidates for toting guns in questionable circumstances there might be a stance on the political highground for Scottish labour to take.
There does seem to be a large element of opportunism and fake outrage in the attempt to make political capital from out of date footage of entirely legal activities.
The double standard is there for all to see.
As a political issue ithis appears to be lipstick on a particularly small and yappy puppydog.
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Gordon Brown invites Thatcher to Chequers This will delight all Labour people on this blog, since they have been happy to support Thatcher's policies (under the New Labour banner) since 1997.
I'm always happy to bring joy to New Labour.
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In response the the brigdier's earlier post (#18), I too wish to submit an alternative headline ... "Shocking instance of BBC reporting the news".
Cathy isn't up to it: she knows it, we know it and Brian knows it. It has to couched in the language of a one-off bad performance though!
I repeat, she is by far and away the best of the SLab three. Labour are now collecting on their long-term decision to send only duffers to the Holyrood Parliament.
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46 Jake the Saltire
I wasn't offended Jake, no worries. I just think that Cathy Jamieson can be attacked for being a Labourite clone but she's not a criminal.
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#49
Ah, Caesar returns....
So whats the script....did the young gladiators perfrom to one's liking, while you were off duty.............or was that an irrational post, "too the Brigadier"
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43. At 9:33pm on 11 Sep 2008, Jake-the-saltire wrote:
#38 Neil_Small
If you wish to enter politics, then you have to be totally transparent and avoid errors of judgement. If you make an error is such a situation - which frankly is nothing particularly wrong - then how will you deal with more serious issues?
Any transparent labour or coservative msps come to mind
No!!
True!
But while I do not expect politicians to be perfect, I do expect them to try and behave responsibly.
The question is to what degree will we tolerate irresponsibility?
As for the leadership contest - Labour are onto a loser regardless who wins: Gray is Gordon Brown's puppet, Cathy J is patronising and Andy Kerr is too nice to some. They'd do better to try and regroup. Gordon Brown is not going to call an election until 2010, so that gives them that time to try and deal with the SNP. The longer the SNP remain in power, the more chance they can reduce their popularity. Alex Salmond wants an early general election, as it will give him more opportunity to get the deal out of Westminster he needs - ie money.
No money means less delivery. And the argument of Westminster holding back funds will lose it's effectiveness over time.
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#52 .... Centuwions ... weweese Wodewick!
Derek are you real ? Im beginning to suspect your a Bot .
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#49 oldnat
Symbolic only and poor timing perhaps by Mr.Broon and his Downing Street cronies.
But as I have said in the past every party leader in the country likes to be seen with old Maggie such was her charismatic term in power. They all hope some of her political wile will rub off on them.
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#54
The life of O' NAT FACE.........
rabbiehippo.... in stitches with that one....
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What a total disappointment. I am SNP but I seriously expected much better from Cathie Jamieson who is the likeliest leader for Scottish Labour and the only one that has any appeal to me.
Whatever made her think that this is a serious topic - a minor SNP councillor handling a gun some years ago. What a scandal to see First Minister's Question Time defiled by such tripe.
Is this all the seriousness Labour accords to Scotland's Parliament
It is sad indeed to see the Labour Party so bereft of any point that they play the race and religion card. Let there be no doubt about it. That is exactly what they are doing and they well know it. Sad Sad Sad!
Perhaps they should take some tips from the BNP. They do it better.
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27
Stop talking nonsense. A huge proportion of our local SNP is English. It pretty juvenile to mix up not liking being ruled by a basically English Parliament and not liking individual English people.
You want to see sputtering racism. Suggest to the average English person that he should be ruled by a French Parliament or a German one.
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#53 Neil thats pretty spot on ...except that there is a by- election and if labour loose that, the press will be hounding Gordon so much that the Scottish leader wont get a look in. Sorry 2 by elections when Jack departs. But i agree time could go against the SNP but i have faith... praise the lord
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#26 bighullabaloo
I regret that your post 26 has only just come to my attention. A brief response follows as a matter of courtesy.
I have looked up that tree but have seen nothing worth barking at there. Therefore, I cannot reasonably take the view that you are barking up the right tree, eager though I be to accommodate you. It follows that I must take the view that you are barking up the wrong tree. This does not imply that the fact that I see nothing up there worth barking at means that I am asserting that it can be stated as fact that there is definitively nothing there worth barking at. Were I to do so, I should rightly be called upon to prove it. As I have not done so, that would appear to be inappropriate.
Accordingly, I am, to the relief, no doubt, of other readers, not upon the brink of attempting to prove the non-existence of something the existence of which I am unaware and the non-existence of which I have not stated as fact.
Carry on barking. Do consider lightening up a bit, though. Good night.
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#59
Would that be a........weeal wooobot...
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CORRECTION:
In my #60 I should have quoted #32 rather than #26.
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# 60 Morris_Norris
Or, in a nutshell, you don't have any proof other than your own opinion, so instead you've decided to waffle about nothing, then thrown in the usual "lighten up" garbage in a desperate attempt to distract people's attention from the fact that it was all talk with nothing to back it up.
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Just watched FM's question time and aye, i can confirm Cathy Jamieson is a neap. The story is a non story...just a point scoring excercise. Ive fired a gun, made bombs etc ... just everyday things that country teenagers did but im not a terrorist . I didnt even paint ' Free Scotland' on Stonehaven harbour cliffs, but i suspect Bighullaballoo might have lol
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Surely the most interesting point is that "election of Labour leader in Scotland" has become a complete non-event. None of these people are 'proper Labour' in any sense that the Scottish electorate cares about. They aren't about to rock the London boat by offering us what we really want.
That has been what Tony Blair will be remembered for - he turned the most powerful force in Scottish politics into an irrelevance because he tore out its soul.
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Derek .. your more Metal Mickey than C3PO lol !!!
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Having just watched the link on Brians blog (FMQ) theres no doubt, that Ms Jamieson had the FM on the ropes over this issue...no doubt whatsoever.....it is a big issue and makes a real press on whether the FM has full control over his party.... this story wont go away...it will..run and run....The FM has got to stamp his authority on this issue..... especially if he wants to legislate against air-guns and the likes......remember there have been some very dreadful incidents in Scotland relating to guns of all types....
Throw these guns away...........
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Anglophone,
The running mate of John McCain is on telly nearly every day firing of het m16 rifle, yet people like yourself continue to attack Hanif for doing the same.
Is your judgement flawed because one is a white American, whilst Hanif is a brown muslim. Lets face it neither one of them should be out there shooting guns, because both are meant to be responsable holders of political office.
Cathy Jamieson can only question Hanif's actions because Blair and Brown broke international law and invaded Iraq and we all know the result of that disaster. 1million men, women and children dead.
I dont back Hanif's or Sara Palins actions, but I do back the SNP's quick moves to suspend Hanif for three months. The white woman will, thanks to Rupert Murdochs media empire, be elected VP of the most powerfull country in the World.
I certainly hope she doesnt end up president and starts to fire of Nukes at Muslim Countries instead of an M16.
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Derekbarker,
Thats exactly the point that Unionists fail to admit. We cant throw the guns away, because a foreign power rules our Country.
We can only do what they deem is suitable. Thats why some of our Young men and Women have come back from a war about Oil, DEAD.
They wouldnt have been there in the first place if we run our own country and stuck to the United Nations Charter, and a million Iraqis would still be alive, enjoying life with their families.
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#67 derek
"Ms Jamiesonhad the FM on the ropes over this issue"
What have you been smokin'??
or are you taking the proverbial pee out of us all.
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#70
The FM wants to ban guns in every community..thats right and proper....
The man is an offical public servant, he didn't register an arms interest?
Look we all have a responsibility to adhere to law and order...YES....and no one should ever forget those horrific incidents that took young school childrens lifes.
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This comment has been referred to the moderators. Explain.
#71 derek
I would advocate the banning of all guns including those touted by landed gentry and their lackeys some of whom haven't got 2 brain cells to rub together, so to some extent we are in agreement, but I would hardly consider the actions of Mr Hanif compare to the horrors that you have highlighted.
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#73
Jack....Mr Hanif fired this weapon off in front of his children.....Why....Why would anyone want to fire a weapon of death in front of their own children.....I dont understand that!....Mr Hanif should have knowen better Jake..
I glad we agree....THROW THESE GUNS AWAY...THE'VE CAUSED THIS WORLD TO MUCH PAIN.
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73 74 ... aye good idea guys get rid of all guns ...... how are you gonna keep the rabbit populations down .... run them over in your cars ? guns dont kill people .... people kill people .... in fact cars have probably killed more people in Scotland ... lets ban Cars ! Everybody on your bikes .
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FERRETS thats the answer ... not guns .... a battalion of ferrets .... 1st Polecat division ... 2 nd Albino division by the left ....quick scurry ..... god i must be tired im speakin c**p lol
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#75 rabbie
guns don't kill people.....people kill people
Very astute but remeber guns don't kill animals be they rabbits, ducks , pheasants, deer etc etc. people do!! and I detest those who take pleasure in killing animals for sport.
As for the rabbit population has anyone heard of nature.
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Jake im not a hunter myself ...well ferrets aye but guns no ... but unfortunatly animals have to be culled be it deer or lately badgers. These animals breed and come winter time starve to death. Ive lived on an estate and only the old or lame are killed. Ok you could put them on the pill and this was thought about but im afraid culling is usually the only option. Besides venison is lovely altho the wife has gone veggie and im half veggie ..well i try. But back to the point i agree guns need stopping but an airgun ban is not the way .... country folk need these things ... town people dont and especially city yobs ... who are the main culprits behind the deaths and injuries lately dont,so id say more power to the police. Anyway that councillor id say it was a rash thing for him to do but if thats where he originates from so what ... those countries have different cultures from us and they are pretty lawless .. much like the wild west. I daresay theres more to the story aka the ex wife etc than were hearing ... id say that thon bloke Mason maybe should have kept out of it but then hes still riding on his glory and full of beans.
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I just wondered what the labour supporters thoughts were on what labour in scotland are going to do when the conservatives get in at westminster.
Just how are labour in scotland going to justify their sudden volte face and support of snp policy.
Because thats what they are going to have to do. Or havent they considered this?
Because if conservatives are in at westminster then labour are going to have to oppose the conservative policies. Which the snp already do.
Now that is going to be interesting.
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I don't post here often, although I do keep up to date on Brian's blog. One thing about this posting that made me want to comment was the discussion of racism. I don't think Alex Salmond, or anyone, should be accusing anyone of racism for commenting on Mr Hanif teaching his kids to shoot weapons. What he did was wrong, regardless of the colour of his skin or ethnic background. Although, I also don't think that it's a good use of time at FMQ's to bring this up. There are certainly more important issues out there. Bad job on the opposition front.
Yet for those, I assume, Unionists who accuse the SNP of being racist for wanting independence , that to reeks of ridiculousness. Nationalists, as a group, are no more or less racist than Unionists. To stand for independence of your country from an unfair union or against a conquering imperialist is the right of everyone. Otherwise we should call Ghandi and Washington racists for demanding self determination for their peoples;.
It really annoys me when people throw this word round without realising what real racism is.
Unionism and Nationalism are opposite points of view on what people feel is the best future course of Scotland. Holding either opinion does not make one a racist.
Calling someone a racist was a cheap way out for Salmond on an issue he is probably very embarrassed about but doesn't want to address, and calling nationalists racists like Anglophone #10 did is just a cheap shot at discrediting a legitimate independence movement
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
so now your not allowed to say that i posted comments and the website isnt working? or the mods arent
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As I was going along one day, I saw a little doggie barking up a tree. I climbed up the tree to see what was there, but when I got there the cupboard was bare.
So I came down with nothing and had nothing to show. So I showed the doggie that. Then he started barking at me. At this point I went home. The last time I saw the doggie he was fighting his own shadow and chasing his own tail. But that's dogs for you, as any cat will tell you.
Although a really nice dog can be man's best friend, he may still sometimes make a great HULLABALOO about nothing.
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Re 33 euro-unionist
The sentiment expressed by a sizeable portion of the Scottish people towards English settling in Scotland is very negative. I have seen the term English used with disgust and disdain by many nationalists.
This borders on racism. When expreessed by the less eloquent it is racist. Racism can come in many forms but the anti-english sentiment is alive and kicking in scotland and is not a pretty sight.
We can pretend it doesn't exist if you want but it is a scar just as ugly as the sectarian one and just as big.
An increase in this is an inevitable consequence of nationalism and the provocative language used by our politicians.
I don't want to re-ignite the ridiculous world cup debate previously aired in these parts but look at some of the language when describing England by some of the more limited contributors.
I live in a community where a lot of English people have settled and I think most of them would agree that they have experienced this ugly sentiment far more often than other minorities living in Scotland.
If we are to achieve our potential then we have to look beyond Englands shores and blaming them for everything wrong with Scotland. If we are to achieve a consensus for Independance it must be built on a lot more than rhetoric, cheap soundbites and ridiculous economics. It needs a vision of what we can achieve by our own hard work.
Racism is a cancer in any society and whatever form it takes it should never be tolerated.
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Re 79
Your argument contqains a lot of presumption. Firstly a Tory government in Westminster would cause a lot of problems for the SNP as well.
Assuming that a vote for independance was achieved in Scotland, with a Tory Government inWestminster.
A period of negotiation would be required. There would be a clear division, the SNP have no electoral mandate for England, the Tories would have none for Scotland. Not a good receipe for compromise. Negotiating Independance with a labour government would be a lot easier.
Assuming the negotiations don't go smoothly, why would they? they could drag on for 2-3 years.. All the time the tories would be bashing scotland for fun and to look good in front of their voters. Barnett would be gone, some much less favourable alternative put in its place. Would this make the SNP more popular?
Enjoy the honeymoon, it has lasted longer than expected. But it won't last forever. Some form of coherent opposition must come forward soon, not easy to see where but it must happen.
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Hello folks,
Have been lurking on this blog for a wee while and felt compelled to comment.
Big Hullaballoo:
I think its perfectly valid for people to question your suggestion that Brian lacks partiality - a suggestion that seems to get levelled at practically all the BBC bloggers at one point or another.
Some posters have pointed out that these blogs are opinion pieces and aren't subject to the same impartiality rules as the news reporting. That does not necessarily imply that Brian IS biased. On the contrary, from my reading of his blog postings over the last few months, I find him to be very even-handed in his arguments and fair to both sides. However, he does have the *right* to post in a biased manner if he chooses to - there is no contradiction there.
Where the contradiction *does* lie is in your assertion that:
1) he writes in a biased manner and yet,
2) you cannot detect the direction in which he is biased!
As you say yourself, you can't have it both ways. With that in mind, I believe you are firmly "barking up the wrong tree"...
IMO, the most faithful interpretation of this blog posting was by BJ in post #18 - thats certainly my reading of it.
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Acting Labour leader Cathy Jamieson repeatedly stated that this was a very serious matter.
what nonsence, its been dealt with by the snp by suspending the councilor from the party for two month.
are labour now saying that they should impose the sentence on the councilor themselfs, when they cannot deal with the slease in their own party.
or is the tactic to draw attention away from the fact that its not only guns that can kill, but excessive profits for energy companies that will kill hundreds if not thousands of poor and elderly scottish householders this winter and labour are doing nothing to stop it happening.
once again labour are showing that they deal in non events and ignore the real issues that scottish householders face.
labour have concistently shown that they do not care about the poorer members in society ( 10p tax scandal / high energy costs / against LIT ) as they need to keep them poor for them to vote labour, but alas the poor now have a choice in that the SNP do care about all the people in scotland.
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#86 J_O_E_L_-_C
"I think its perfectly valid for people to question your suggestion that Brian lacks partiality"
People are entitled to question what I've said but that's hardly the same thing as proving that what I'm saying isn't true, is it! If you want to see the "proof" that I'm "barking up the wrong tree" then read Morris_Norris's ridiculous #60.
You're trying to have your cake and eat it - Taylor can be biased if he wishes (not true, even in these so-called "opinion pieces" in BBC blogs) but he isn't being biased (according to you).
Unlike you I'm not trying to "have it both ways". I'm just sick of the obvious impartiality in these articles. I can detect it and so can many other people who've posted the same view. Some people here seem to think we have to accept their claims of "impartiliaty" just because they say so. I don't.
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#83 Simon_Pure
I enjoyed your well-written fairy tale, but you're just another one who doesn't have a shred of proof that what I'm saying isn't true.
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Correction to my #88
I of course meant "obvious lack of impartiality".
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Oh dear, here we go again. Whatever you do, don't tell the truth on these blogs.
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Why block posts if there is no truth in what I'm saying?
Can one of you geniuses who posted above please explain.
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Nowt to do with me! When I refreshed the page to see if there'd been any responses to my posting, they were already referred.
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58 Sneckedagain
It's true, as an Englishman I would be outraged if I was ruled by the French or German Parliaments because they are different countries and I would have no democratic representation.
You're doing it again...playing the brutal occupation and victimisation card. Scots are extremely well represented in the British Parliament and have a devolved democratic body for local affairs. They have seperate control over the law, religion, education...you name it, plus public spending that runs in excess of £2000 per head more than where I live.
Oppressed victims...I think not.
33 Eurounionist
It may surprise you to find that I too am broadly pro-Europe but I am touched by your naivety. The idea that you would somehow exchange domination from a British Parliament (in which you are over-represented) for an equitable relationship with other European countries flies in the face of everything we know about the EU, even post-Lisbon. Even if it had significant powers, your representation on the European parliament would be tiny (much much less than in the UK parliament), you would occasionally get a part-time commissioner and your voice in the Council of Ministers would be a squeak! Let's see how Wee Alex would get on arguing the toss about fishing rights with Spain or arguing for financial support versus the needs of Romania or Bulgaria...interesting!
You are basing your idea of Scotland in Europe on the the Europe that should be...not the one that actually exists!
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Dearie dearie me?
Lets see what we?ve really got here. A gentleman named Hanif goes off to visit his rellies in Pakistan, a country where its culturally ok to carry rifles and indeed in some circles (I?m talking tribal culture not terrorism) as de rigeur to do so as it is for the rest of us to stuff a little knife into the top of our sock when wearing a kilt.
He and other family members then do a bit of shooting with said rifle(s); so do the kids, just as landowners do over here; and morally and culturally there?s no difference between Dad teaching the kids to shoot clays with a 12 bore or shooting tin cans with a rifle ? you?ll note that in all this ridiculous stushie no one has ever suggested, far less accused, Mr Hanif of actually shooting at people with the infamous family AK.
Then what happens?
Mr Hanif, who is presumably an upstanding member of society (or so we can suppose from the failure to stick anything else on him) gets elected as a councillor; not of course one of the SNP?s ?top men? as one of the more risible contributions put it, but an ordinary local councillor. However for reasons which I take to be none of our business he also starts going through a divorce, which by the nature of things is less than amicable and so one of his daughters tries to stick the knife in by producing the photos to embarrass him.
At this point to their shame the SNP is seized by an irrational fit of political correctness and decides to suspend him for committing no crime at all and moreover doing it long before he held public office.
A sad state of affairs indeed and only surpassed by Labour?s prissy insistence it?s a serious matter, when in reality the only serious aspects of the affair are (a) the inability by certain politicians to demonstrate a sense of proportion and in some cases any sense at all; (b) Labour?s failure to find a better stick, and (c) Cathy Jamieson?s inability to wield even that broken reed with any conviction
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80 Japanesewhispers
I accept your point, though in fairness I did not accuse the SNP of racism per se. Racism is, I agree a much misused word and covers a broad church from the obscenity of apartheid through to people complaining that they've had their feelings hurt!
How about "prejudice" then? I still maintain that Alex's referendum will ultimately depend upon people who have been conditioned from birth to dislike and mistrust the English. Painting the Westminster parliament as "English" is all part of this process.
PS: Under no circumstances would I compare the SNP with the BNP, though I suspect that it's going a bit far to suggest that the latter is an exclusively English organisation.
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94.
You're missing the point we want an Autonomous Scottish Parliament we don't mind if it's within the Union as long as we collect the money and decide what to do with it - we may indeed contribute to central funds where we share common issues.
The problem for Labour candidates is we don't know how good they are because they are restricted in what they can put forward as Scottish policies.
If they could only decide what there position on Fiscal Autonomy we could have a real debate on it.
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#84 northhighlander
Your response to my post deserves a reply which respects the view which you have expressed. I shall accordingly endeavour to give one, without going on too long.
I suppose the best way to find out if one is at all given to racism may be to witness an instance of it and see how one responds. I have done this on a number of occasions, none of them involving Scottish people, and would ask you to accept that I have acquired a complete certainty as to where I stand on this. I am with the victim every time, without a moment's hesitation, no matter who it may be or where from. Yet I support independence for my country without any compunction whatever, having considered the matter over a long period, with all the care that it requires, in my view. That does not mean that I am not open to persuasion, and it is in that spirit that I am reflecting upon your views. The more I think about them the more it seems to me that they deserve an exhaustive response such as would be excessive in a blog post, for the topic is as complex as human nature and human society themselves.
I shall have to choose my words carefully, as I realize that this topic is a sensitive one and that misunderstandings can all too easily arise. Still, nothing ventured nothing gained. Let me tell you a story. Not a dramatic one. Nobody died. The police didn't have to be called. It is in fact fairly dull but mercifully short.
Recently I found while standing in a somewhat long queue in the local newsagent's shop that the normal order of things was disturbed. Not a serious matter but perhaps instructive. One of our non-Scottish residents, whose origins I shall leave you to surmise, had come in, grabbed what he wanted and had gone straight to the front of the queue, where he proceeded to attempt to contract his business in a very loud and domineering manner, leaving a dozen or so of us Scots to wait behind him as if it was our place in the order of things to do so. Not a word of protest did we utter, as we have come across this sort of thing before, but the newsagent took pity on us and silenced the interloper before directing him unceremoniously to the back of the queue.
Analysis now. If anyone was being racist, who was it? The Scots in the queue who kept mum? Hardly. The newsagent? I don't think so. He is originally from the Indian sub-continent. If he had been a Scot, however, . . . What about our overbearing chap from furth of the border? Was he being racist or merely overbearing, which is bad enough. When you mix up nationalities, suspicions of racist motivation may lurk quite near the surface, and one should take care not to jump to conclusions. Am I being racist in telling this tale? I don't think so. Will you think so? That depends, I suppose, on whether you believe it.
How is the Indian sub-continental getting on in our little community? He and his family seem to be quietly and decently considerate and respectable people who are fitting in beautifully, so far as I am aware, and have shown no tendency that I am aware of towards conduct to which the native population might be disposed to take exception. Whether we meet with their approval I cannot tell, but the preliminary indications are promising.
I would commend their prudent approach to all persons settling into a community whether they be urban dwellers moving to the country or vice-versa or Lowlanders moving to the Highlands or vice versa or English people moving to Scotland or Scottish people moving to England.
I once found myself newly arrived in a town in the south of England in which I was to remain for several years. Although merely confidently striding forth like the Scot on the make that I was, fully open to the new challenges and hopelessly positively disposed towards my hosts, I noticed one day in the High Street that several very local people held the view that I had been there for only five minutes and there I was already behaving as if I owned the place. I immediately adjusted my view of my surroundings and adopted the lower and less 'non-English' approach that seemed to be desired so as not to cause offence where none was intended.
To confuse the separate issues of independentism and problematic if not uncommon processes and mechanisms of society whether on a very small scale or a somewhat larger one is a mistake, and I put it to you that to play the racist card is something that one should think very carefully about. I have known the SNP down the years. This is not their style. Nothing could be further from it. I advise British Unionists, whether Scottish or English, to steer clear of it and avoid it like the plague.
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good morning to all the little nat bloggers who fill the ether with agit prop in an effort to make up for the fact that most Scots reject national divorce. GNat Central office IS watching and approves.
It might help if you were a little less strident, it puts floating voters off.
Question is though, will you keep this up if you ever get a girlfiiend?
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Compare the sanity and reason of #98 with the tone and content of #99. Then draw your own conclusions.
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In the penultimate paragraph of my #98 'lower' should be 'lower-profile'.
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98 - Eurounionist
Blimey, a queue-jumper...doesn't sound typically English to me. The vast majority of us are conditioned from birth not to do this. Perhaps he was just plain rude!
My own experience is less pleasant having been subject to unprovoked assualt, knocked to the ground, concussed, and called an "English c-word" on Union Street in Aberdeen. Maybe it has coloured my judgement, but I do still have many Scottish friends.
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Ironic that Salmond can only be questioned in his role as FM. He should remember that the roles of FM and leader of the SNP are not totally interchangeable when he's abroad supposedly promoting Scotland, but in reality promoting his party's political viewpoint.
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#102 Anglophone
"Maybe he was just plain rude."
Who said he was English? And who said he was not just plain rude? Interpretation is everything.
As for Union Street, that is not the Union Street that I used to know. But, of course, Aberdeen has changed over the years. It has a more diverse population. There are main streets in small towns that I would not care to walk down anywhere now depending on the time of day and which day of the week it was. There are ruffians everywhere, who will use any and every pretext to do what they like to do in every country that I know. I would avoid them so far as possible if I were you. I do.
I recall that my English colleagues were much given to uttering remarks that one would have to regard as uncomplimentary to those who are not English. Banter, they called it. If on the receiving end of it they seem to think it is appropriate to call it racism. I prefer not to call anything of this nature anything at all and to not touch it with a barge pole.
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100. Give it a rest.
Go to any Scottish newpaper website (Herald and Scotsman especially) and sample the opinions and attitudes of some of your fellow arch-nationalists.
You may also like to take note of the abuse anyone who is anti-independence and/or anti-SNP receives.
There is also a predictable and oft-repeated routine to look out for: A nationalist will make a ridiculous anti-UK claim. This will be refuted by another poster, who will then receive a tirade of abuse in return.
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#37 Jake: I'm never exactly sure if you're being sarcastic. That's clever. Less clever is your use of the expression "unionist biased." I am biased against the FM, because I simply don't trust him. (He's not alone there, of course). But there is nothing "unionist" about it. I am only a Unionist by default, in the sense that we all live within the Union. Nats, like it or not, are also within the Union.
Until I am convinced by the Independence argument, or I am ripped out of the Union against my will (more likely), I will continue to question the emotive, nonsensical psycho-babble that passes for reasoned argument on the wilder fringes of the SNP.
My previous paragraph will no doubt inspire the usual chorus: Prove it! Quote your sources! How do you know I'm a froth-strewn megalomaniac? I demand answers!
I think the answers lie in the blog. Don't you?
Okay, I'll now confess my Nationalist credentials. Do I get in?
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104 Euro-Unionist
You must be older than you sound. The incident happened 22 years ago. I readilly accept that this something that can happen anywhere and my Scottish friends were appalled and embarrassed. I don't bear a grudge.
Your experience of being on the receiving end of "oh so funny" banter is not pleasant. I remember the same thing in reverse, although it never got beyond the irritating level. 20 - 30 years ago, such behaviour with "jokes" about irish people, West Indians etc were rife. Such behaviour is no longer socially acceptable and you rarely hear it. Can you say the same about Scots banging on about the deficiencies of the English?...look deep into your heart now
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#24 Anglophone
(I know that was a long time back, but I just read all this...)
I think you are wrong about the following:
"The type of people that Alex needs to win his referendum, as I've posted before, are the types who think that the screenplay of Braveheart is a historical text. The types who can be persuaded that they are occupied by a brutal force and the victims of a vast conspiracy spanning generations to deprive Scots of...well...just about everything."
It strikes me that such people, were they actually to exist, would be stonewall certs to vote for independence, and not exactly needing to be won over to it.
To win an independence referendum (and I'm not convinced it is 'Alex's referendum', I rather think it would be the country's referendum) requires winning over the rather larger number of voters who think that Scotland will become independent one day, but aren't yet convinced that today is the day.
These are the actual swing voters, not some mythical bunch of paranoid woad paint wearers. Seriously.
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re 98
To be clear, I have never said all nationalists are racists nor have I ever said I am against independence, I remain unconvinced.
Your example of the queue in the newsagents highlights the lack of manners across society today. I don't think this is an exclusively English phenomenon.
My point remains, when the first minister goes on national media accusing the English in Westminseter of embezzeling Scottish funds, this rhetoric causes a rise in anti-English sentiment in Scotland. Plainly this is using the race card. He is basically repeating the basic message continually: Scottish good English bad.
The whole point of Alec's rhetoric since coming to power is to portray the English parliament in Westminster as the cause of all Scotlands problems, get rid of this and everything will be fine. Not good enough, base level politics, lazy politics. Poor leadership.
Now most of us can make an objective judgement on this but a sizeable majority don't.
If the same energy was put into a positive effort to highlight what independance could achieve we might achieve an overwhelming consenus in favour. But that requires vision, something spectaculalry lacking in Scottish politics.
We will always require a close relationship with England, we live on the same Island. We should want to be good neighbours even if we don't want to share a government.
I know and agree using the term racist is a strong term. But we must always be prepared to look at ourselves and consider this:
Even if the anti-English sentiment is not racist, is it really how we want Scotland percieved? We are a proud nation and we can and must do better. Racism starts very gently, but grows if it is unchecked. Lets not give it a place in Scotland.
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108 MinceandMealie
Damn...just when I was signing off. You raise a fair point. The actual number of woad plastered voters is probably quite small. I'll try to enlarge on my viewpoint.
We live in an age of decreasing interest in politics with low turnouts at elections and even lower at referenda (judging by recent examples). If Alex, in promoting his cause in the "people's referendum" is to achieve a significant majority, he will rely upon a large turnout from people who don't usually vote and have little interest. How do you think he is going to galvanise that constituency? Detailed economic plans? Proposals for EU or WTO accession? Foreign policy?
I think we will see him filmed with a backdrop of heather covered hills talking up the FREEEEDUURRM agenda for all he is worth.
This is not meant to be a slur on people with sincerely held views. It's just political reality. It will be like UKIP on speed.
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Regarding the Scots/English racism argument, I personally think the majority of folk don't give it a great deal of thought most of the time.
In addition, perhaps I should clarify: when Scots refer to ?English?, they probably mean those of the SE/home counties. I doubt particularly that many of our fellow citizens from the SE actively think or worry about Scots as much as Scots do about them ? it?s more likely they forget Scots exist most of the time - in much the same manner as they will probably forget about the people of Cumbria, Cornwall or Caernarfonshire. The very fact that the subject is even being discussed in the national press is perhaps down to the SE's greater exposure to Scots in public life (i.e. GB and AD being in Downing St). It only becomes an issue when those with an agenda force it to the forefront.
To my mind, Nationalism (with a capital 'N'), as with Religious Fundamentalism, is the start point of a political spectrum which has Fascism at its extreme end; if you take 'your' folk to be special as your premise, it's not a huge leap to conclude that 'their' folk are inferior somehow. In addition, at what point does this process of Nationalism stop: Your country? Your burgh? Your village? Your street? Your doorstep? Also can someone tell me what, other than accent and ceremonial clothing, fundamentally defines the difference amongst Scots, English, Welsh (and indeed Irish)? I would suggest not a great deal. I think there is enough division and separation in this world - I don't agree that we really need to contribute more by splitting off from our common cultural neighbours.
Having said that, I'm personally in favour of constitutional reform to forge a federal system along the lines of German Bundesrepublik, whereby we devolve 'local' powers to regional assemblies (including sub-regions within England) and leave the major strategic national interests (e.g. defence, foreign diplomacy) to the central parliament - i.e. In a sense the remit of Westminster would be lessened significantly but concurrently freed up to concentrate on really important international issues. I appreciate that local assemblies in England were voted against in a referendum at the time but perhaps, if the argument is persuasive enough, that result could be turned around.
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#105, etc
This has been pointed out before, but has anyone perused the average English-based blog thread on matters Scottish?
The level of prejudicial ignorance and ill-conceived venom and ingrained hostility can be appalling - and that is just on matters relating to alleged "subsidies" - let alone the perceived aims of Scottish nationalism - and on the blog sites of the so-called 'quality media at that!
Much of the content of these comments is characteristically reactionary, jingoistic and self-serving, showing not the slightest acknowledgement of, let alone any interest in seeing beyond, its own inherent ignorance.
Frankly, such opinion makes the content of comparable Scottish blog threads, even some of the more intemperate ones, look positively well educated by comparison.
And, in contrast to the situation here, much prejudice and presumption on these 'British' blogs often appears to go unchallenged.
Indeed, the same attitudes and prejudices are prevalent in much of the 'south British' press, who are quite happy to perpetuate the "Scotland subsidised" myth, and to indulge in open jingoism and Scot-bashing of the kind that is routinely and summarily omitted from their "Scottish" editions.
The press in Scotland, at least, should be congratulated for its generally high standards of impartiality (notwithstanding the exemption of certain Labour-adherent tabloids), and its inclusive, outward-looking perspectives - if not for its inherent deference towards the sensibilities of the Home Counties!
The crux of my point, of course, is that certain quarters of the English press - of which Kelvin McKenzie is but one lauded fountainhead - are freely, routinely and systematically disseminating blatantly anti-Scottish propaganda at a level that thoroughly dwarfs the legitemate and generally positive online contribution of Scottish pro-independence bloggers.
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111 JOELC
I couldn't have put it better!
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Who Wins? - Who Cares!?
On a general note about Scottish politics, is it just me or is there a definite tone of sulking from Labour since the SNP won?
Anytime any Labour MSP says anything that the media distribute, it always sounds like sour grapes. Many of them are bringing up criticisms of the SNP government that should have been dealt with by the previous administration. Strangely, they didn't seem to be a problem back then ....
Last bit of my tuppence worth - the SNP government are up against a Scottish establishment that were 'in bed' with Labour - jobs for the boys and all that. I think that they are doing a bloody good job considering what they are up against.
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If Cllr Hanif had been videoed in the Highlands with a shotgun, or in the US on a target range, then this would never have got off the ground. But because he was in Pakistan, (in the village he was born in) some sections of the press get on their soapbox. If that is not "thinly disguised racism" then I don't know what is
The timing of this a week before the council by-election of John Mason's old seat, is more than a coincidence.
Really, if this is the best Labour can come up with, then they are in an even worse state than even I thought.
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#85 - I would have thought independence negotiations would be easier with the Tories, as they have next to no support in Scotland, and the SNP by definition only has support in Scotland. The clean split would ease negotiations rather than Labour desperately clawing at their lost fiefdom.
If it was Labour instead it seems to me you are far more likely to see childish stalling tactics as they would feel a 'right to rule' on either side of the border; unlike the Tories (who have felt like 'Colonial Governors' since the collapse in their Scottish support in the late 50s!)
P.S. - how long can you maintain that the "honeymoon" is still ongoing? Brown's honeymoon lasted about 4 months (you are claiming on of close on 1 and a half years for the SNP). I think you may well find that the people are aligning themselves with that party in a more meaningful way than you suspect. (A majority may not yet support independence, but overwhelmingly the population realise the SNP is unique in not taking its orders from London, and they rather like it!)
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#111.
"...whereby we devolve 'local' powers to regional assemblies..."
Are you forgetting that Scotland is a country, not a region?
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Dear Brian,
I want the FM to know that when I was a young boy some naughty people in England took me to a 'military establishment' and taught me to fire guns.
They then told me they would pay me money to shoot at people they said were bad.
Sometimes we were driven about in trucks, ships and planes that were blacked out and not told where we were going.
Once I had to go to a really cold island, far away, to free penguins from oppression (well that's what the nice lady said) by killing Argies but that was all right because the nice lady said they were bad because of what they were doing to the penguins.
Luckily I was out of it before my friends went off to the desert to free lots of gerbils - but the nice lady said I better stand by in case the gerbils fought back.
Does all this mean I can never be an MSP since I know how to shoot a gun, have shown my kids how to and Ms Jamieson says that is bad? My son also knows how to fire arrows so I suppose he has no chance.
Love,
An ex-serviceman aged 52 and quarter.
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I see that Ladbrokes have Jamieson as a slight favourite to win the leadership. She is 11/8 whilst Gray is 6/4.
As an outsider, I am not sure why Gray was touted as the favourite. But Jamieson seems more like the type Scottish Labour would vote for. Either way, they will be meat and drink to Alex.
Freedom
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# 109
I have yet to hear any politician of any party in the Scottish Parliament refer to Westminster as the English Parliament.
Furthermore I have yet to hear Alex Salmond mention the English are to blame for Scotland's funding etc. He refers to Westminster - the Parliament for the UK at all times.
What do you expect with a Scottish government whose wish is to be an independent nation other than healthy argument/discussion? Or would you prefer the cosy little arrangement we've had for the previous 8 years when Westminster told Holyrood exactly what to do? That situation did little for Scotland and made a mockery of us having our own parliament.
May I suggest you listen just a little more to what is said by politicians as saying the English are to blame for all our ills is quite untrue. It's that kind of comment that causes friction between nations.
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Gray by name, Grey by nature, Cathie go Home and Herr Kerr; Alex Salmond could not have chosen a more desirable trio if he had been so tasked.
Labour's caretaker leader will merely be keeping the seat warm until they can find a bona fide leader; could such a viable leader become available if Labour are routed at the next General Election; will Scottish politics suddenly become meaningful when viewed in comparison to the dole queue?
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#120
You are quite right. Whether you like him or not, Alex Salmond is a consumate politician and choses the words he uses very carefully.
Given that, why then does he use words like "embezzlement" and "fleecing" if not to evoke some sort of emotive response - on both sides of the border?
Is that healthy?
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Is it just me, or is FMs questions nothing more than a childish point-scoring exercise?
And why do MSPs persist in applauding when their champion issues forth the most inane contributions? I've witnessed student debates which were of much higher quality than Holyrood.
However on the serious question of racism; a few years ago, One Scotland, published a survey of opinions in Scotland on the matter of race which lead a leader in the Guardian to ask ' Is Scotland the most Racist Country in Europe?'. Apparently, according to this survey, 9% of the population think it is acceptable to use physical violence against someone if they are racially different or originate from another country. We really need to put our house in order.
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It is suggested that Alex Salmond is perhaps insighting racisim in claiming that the Scots are being embezzeled.
Lets forget the language and ask our Scottish Labour friends to clear up the claim instead of sitting there as mute whipped little kids. Lets see some of Labour standing up for Scotland. If they would Scotland will be better for it. However I think we are heading for more of the same from Labour under our new Scottish Labour leader.
PS. Bit fed up of Radio Scotland's permanent need to emphasise the SNP Minority Government over and over and over again. Bit boring and irrelevent I think. I refer to the 'experts' on the riddock show today, very lame discussion I thought.
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#105 Reluctant-Expat
Could you please define 'Arch-nationalist' for me, specifically what differentiates this type of nationalist from another.
Thanks.
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111. My sentiments almost-precisely.
I'm not personally convinced about the case for federalism within a codified constitution, which I consider too rigid to be able to adapt to what are constantly changing social and economic landscapes.
However, I do believe in devolving down the entire 'domestic' policy portfolio to the lowest possible level. For us, this would involve relinquishing not just Westminster, but also Holyrood of many of its current responsibilities and handing them to local councils.
There are many US towns of less than 50,000 inhabitants that prove it is entirely possible for such small communities to run the vast majority of their own services; including planning, social services, development, housing, education, health, police, fire, transport (incl any light rail services and local airports lying within city limits) and environment with minimal involvement by 'higher' government.
Holyrood should only concentrate on running matters that cross council boundaries; major roads/rail/airports, higher education, culture etc.
Equally, Westminster should only concentrate on UK-wide issues; the macro-economy, foreign affairs, defence, welfare and trade regulation being examples.
Most importantly, all three tiers of govt will raise and spend their own taxes totally independently of any other level. Borrowing within limits should also be allowed (as Westminster is now).
In a fit of enthusiastic thought and calculation, I even guesstimated the budgets for each level at #4,500 per person at local level, with a similar amount split between national and UK tiers ie. a 200,000 city would have a budget of ~#900m, Holyrood's would be reduced to ~#11-12bn and Westminster's would be reduced to ~#200bn.
I haven't been able to sleep that well recently and so I've been occupying my mind with such thoughts.
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#124
Now, if I was some of the people on this thread, I'd be saying
"How dare you suggest that I'm suggesting that AS is inciting racism - Where did I suggest that - provide a quote where I have, etc, etc."
However, I'm a bit more reasonable than that.
I'm not suggesting that AS is inciting racism. I'm asking whether it is healthy to use such emotive language.
I've said on another thread that, while I'm sure that AS and the SNP are not racist or inciting racism, the language they use may give people who are already racist and bigotted the confidence to voice their opinions whereas before they may have kept quiet.
That is not incitement - that is not thinking through the consequences of how they are saying what they are saying.
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A little off topic I know, but I'm surprised that this late in the day no-one has commented on Pa Broon's backpedalling over taxation - claiming that the words he spoke weren't what he meant at all and that the Journalists had got it all wrong again
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125. The uncompromising type who can only accept that their way is the right way. Usually an under-20, has 'Braveheart-The Director's Cut' on DVD, well-read on some historic events and bombards any and every website that talks about Scottish politics, often with multiple accounts (although has been known to contribute to any board with even the most tenuous of links to nationalism). Considers anyone who does not follow their path as weak. Sees conspiracy and lies in any statistic or report that does not support the theory that the SNP are always right, the oil is infinite and the oil revenues are far larger than officially reported.
There are obviously a couple of alternate labels but I think 'arch-nationalist' is....diplomatic.
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#129 Reluctant-Expat
So, no sign of racial stereotyping there, then!
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Of all the utterly stupid comments I've ever seen on this board I think #129 takes the biscuit for the sheer depth of idiocy it demonstrates.
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#129 Reluctant-Expat: Oh, go on! Give us the alternate labels. Does one begin with "W" - or "T?"
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Having seen the level of utter, blind, ignorant prejudice demonstrated by #129, I've decided not to waste a single more minute of valuable lifetime arguing with the sort of people who could actually have those thoughts and not be ashamed to reveal them publicly, even on an anonymous blog. Truly disgusting.
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# 129 Reluctant-expat
Oh to live in your horrible conspiratorial world!! It must be a horrible existence!
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4:12pm on 12 Sep 2008, Bangingonabout.
the language that A.S. uses is the language of two parliaments struggle for power.
if racists use it to feel free to to spout their racism then its the racists at fault not A.S. fault.
if you look at another example, like the language used in the war on terrorism ect., would you use that as an example for the racists that abused the muslim community in britain, im sure you would not.
unfortunately there is racism in every culture and country in the world, but the majority of people in each of these countries abhore racism and just want to live their lives in peace.
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#130
refer to post 105
You maybe also in danger of losing your membership...
History of the nationalist part 3......Hmmmm
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# 127 Bangingonabout
"How dare you suggest that I'm suggesting that AS is inciting racism - Where did I suggest that - provide a quote where I have, etc, etc."
I see that some people never learn, evenb when someone else has taken the time and trouble to provide them with a free lesson.
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130. Hardly!
I think this little contingent prove my case quite beautifully as they promote, on all frequencies, a blog which tears apart the latest GERS accounts.....which were released by the SNP.
Talk about tying themselves in knots!
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Bungler Brown has an opportunity to help people who are less weel off with their fuel bills. Bungler has £100 000 000 in his war chest and expectations are high.
What does bungler do?
Lets people down and fails to rise o the occassion. Bungler and failure are inseperable.
Bungler and the Labour party say they do not have the money to spend on the less well off in our society, but Bungler nad his mates still have shed loads of cash to spend on their nasty illegal wars in Iraq and Afganistan.
Scotland produces ten times what she consumes in Oil. It is an inditement on Scots that we have given this windfall away for the past 30 + years to another country, and not spent it on our old folks and less well off.
Lets unbungle Scotland from Bungler's Britain!
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Reluctant-Expat is not racist, however highly offensive against one group of individuals. Prejudice I believe the word is. As long as the group, in this case Nationalists, speak and take part in debates, then are immediatly put down based on the fact that we are Nationalists.
You already spoke of your hatred towards to SNP, and other fellow Scottish Nationalists. You also spoke of how they are the force in Scotland that are encouraging hatred and division etc etc
From your little comment that sterotypes Scottish Nationalists, do you not feel as if you are the force encouraging hatred and division?
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#138 Expat
The GERS report was constructed by civil service statisticians - not by a political party.
Have you read it? They state a number of areas in which they have made assumptions.
There are areas of debate round some of this assumptions.
I have seen an analysis that suggests that the GERS team may have underestimated Scottish resources.
I presume that you know of 1 or more which suggests that Scottish resources may be less than the GERS team suggested. Please give the references. It/they would be of interest.
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130-131-133. Did I perhaps, possibly impact firmly on a raw nerve, Bigfussaboutnothing*?
And as for labelling my post as 'racist', just get a grip of yourself, you silly lad.
(*who coined that nickname, by the way? - tip of the hat to you!)
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#138 Reluctant-Expat: Corporal Jones had the right phrase for it, eh?
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139. It has been proven by the SNP themselves that we have been receiving our full share of oil revenues for the last 20 consecutive years.
Unless you have evidence to the contrary.
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#140 Thomas: It's not like you to miss the point and misdirect your displeasure. The gentleman was asked to define "arch" nationalists, as opposed to everyday Nats. So, Thomas, people will have to decide for themselves if that particular cap fits. But it was not suggested that one size fits all.
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#107 Anglophone
Well, I am appalled and embarrassed too, for what it may be worth. I don't doubt that it must have been very unpleasant. I cannot abide anything like that.
I have looked deep into my heart to oblige you in total sincerity. You have asked about my own experience, and so that is what I have delved into. It happens that I live in a community which is very inclusive and remarkably contented. I consider myself to be enormously privileged to live among these people, whom I care about. Why should I care about them? Because, for one thing I find them to be a deeply caring and genuine people. I am enough of a realist to know that one location taken at random is not necessarily to be accepted as definitely representative of the whole of Scotland, but it is what I know, and so from personal experience it is what I can tell you about.
I know very many people here who vote SNP and some who are or have been members of that party or even held elected office on behalf of it. Actually, among my very neighbourly and decent neighbours in the street where I live I can't think of anyone who does not vote SNP. We have SNP councillors in this locality and an SNP MSP and an SNP MP in this constituency, although the constituency is home to a large minority born outside Scotland, the majority of whom appear to be English.
So how do we all get along? I cannot recall hearing any Scots saying anything about English people along the lines that you describe or for that matter English people complaining about us. It may be that I lead a relatively sheltered existence, but when I am travelling about the county I still don't hear anything like that. I am not aware of hatred as a communal phenomenon here. Very much the reverse. The general tendency seems to be to make allowances for any insensitivity or ignorance that a newcomer may display. One notices the louder and more insistent voices of your compatriots drowning out the quieter tones of the locals as we are going about our business in the shops and libraries and so forth, but, as I say, they are a generous-hearted people, and they give way and say nothing about it.
As for what may be said in the public houses of an evening, I am afraid I cannot help you there, as I don't frequent them. I am afraid that I do not seem to conform very well to the national stereotype, which has always seemed to me to be a hugely unjust travesty. I recall being told by an educated professionally qualified English person in Wales that in Scotland, a place which she imagined to be in the grip of some sort of northern Scandinavian white-out during the winters, sobriety must be so rare that a virtual teetotaller such as myself must hardly be able to fit in. What a humorous person, you will be thinking. Unfortunately not. I looked for the humour, of course, but to my dismay could find no trace of any.
I fear that there is a great deal of misunderstanding about. Occasionally one falls victim to it, and occasionally it hurts. It hurts me to witness the slandering of the SNP and of Scotland, but I am accustomed to it. I remember what happened in the 1970s. There was a blizzard of misrepresentation to prevent the SNP from advancing further then. An important element in it was the playing of the race card. Not only did Scotland as a whole not care tuppence about England, we were told, but the poor English here were oppressed. The trouble with all of that, disreputable and indefensible though I consider it to have been, is that it worked. Dirty-tricks campaigns can work, and here they are again. I doubt whether the effect will be the same this time. But who can tell?
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Reluctant-Expat.
your posts are very one sided -- anti SNP.
if you were honest you would say that there is faults on both sides at the extremes.
the most part it is one upmanship and deriding your opponents view to score points.
also there are some very good posts in each camp that can make you rethink your own view.
i personaly like oldnats blogs as he gives links to items.
even if the scottish parliament are given more devolved powers, it will not stop the want of independence, which has been going on for 300 years since the union was formed.
it is up to the scottish voters whether they will settle for the status quo, increased devolution, fiscal autonomy or complete independence, but will the polititions give them the choice.
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# 142 Reluctant-Expat
Yes, you touched a raw nerve but not the one you're thinking of.
You've reminded me I have too much respect for the value of my own time to waste it arguing with anyone who can come out with the sort of moronic claptrap you're spewing here.
Thankfully you and your kind are becoming more of an irrelevency with every passing day.
I look forward to a time very soon when anything you say will refer only to a long gone past.
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#146 Euro-unionist
"Dirty-tricks campaigns can work, and here they are again."
Dont' worry, the Scottish people are seeing through the lies and propaganda we get treated to on here.
The Unionist scare stories are still being enthusiastically fed to the public by Scotland's disgracefully biased media - but they aren't working any more.
They still think the scare stories are working - because they're still writing them out. But the people will tell soon tell them what they think at the ballot box.
The attempts to smear the SNP are getting more desperate and ridiculous every time.
No one is fooled.
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John:
Ah yes, I knew what was asked, however I saw an opportunity to chase up on some points Expat made on earlier Blogs. The SNP, and fellow Nationalists as the group that encourages hatred and creates divisions, apparently.
I decided to search through Expat's older comments to show you the type of division Expat creates.
"Why the hell do you and your little mob have to hijack anything and everything to your 'cause'?"
"You arch-nats should really stop making things up."
(Look at Expat's definition of what an arch-nat is, search their older comments and you will see Expat using 'arch-nat' to cause offence)
"Where did all the arch-nationalists come from? This board seems to be flooded with them now. Has word been sent around by SNP HQ?"
Ah, again Expat using arch-nationalists to cause offence rather then there actually being any. You can read more yourself, but you get my point.
I found it rather amusing that Expat can claim the SNP, and fellow Nationalists are a force, encouraging hatred and creating division while their attitude towards the regular Nat is simply disgusting and is creating two groups. Two groups created by his own hatred from the other. Are we, the Nationalists, suppose to unite under this mans banner? Their attitude (that others have aswell) creates division in todays Scotland. (Just like Scotland to fight amougst ourselves and ignore the rest of the world)
People were talking about racism, I decided to speak about prejudicism that clearly exists between Unionists and Nationalists. Expat was the best example I had.
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148. And you have reminded me of two more traits of an arch-nationalist:
'Hair-trigger outrage, both feigned and genuine' and 'an unshakeable belief that the referendum will show overwhelming support for independence, despite all evidence to the contrary'.
It was pointed out in a post the other day that the very latest poll may have shown strong support for the SNP - but it also showed that support for independence has not budged since April 2007.
You arch-nats have a very long way to go.
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#151 Reluctant-Expat
Perhaps we do have a long way to go - you or anyone else can't tell me what will happen tomorrow never mind in the longer term, but your statement unintentionally reveals your firm belief that we are on our way, and no doubt that we will reach our destination. It could be a lot sooner than you think. If it means no longer having to hear from the likes of you then it will be well worth the wait.
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#149
'Hair-trigger outrage,shooting off without any consequence of your action......
The arch-nats are ping-ponging all over the place..........
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#147 vote_nat
Thanks for the compliment. I probably let you down in my #141 by not giving the reference to the report on GERS that I think Expat was referring to in his usual nasty way. The report is by an accountant who has done very detailed research into this, and published it through Siol nan Gaidheal. this is not an organisation I approve of, but I'm one of these oddballs who is willing to look at evidence from any source.
I'm neither an accountant nor an economist, so I can't comment on the Siol nan Gaidheal critique of GERS. However, at least some of the criticismc seem to have some validity.
I think I'll wait a long time for Expat to give sources for critiques of GERS that suggest that it is generous to Scotland. However, I live in hope.
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#150 Thomas
Expat seems to have a particular dislike of the young!
Note his definition of "arch nats" as being teenagers.
I suspect you are the only Nationalist teenager posting on this blog, so his use of the plural seems to confirm his mental confusion.
You are the same age that I was when I first became involved in politics, so I respect your position, and that you are far better informed than I was at your age! More strength to your keyboard!
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68. At 01:20am on 12 Sep 2008, scottishrepublic wrote:
Anglophone,
The running mate of John McCain is on telly nearly every day firing of het m16 rifle, yet people like yourself continue to attack Hanif for doing the same.
Apologies if this has already been pointed out, but Mr Hanif was getting his CHILDREN to fire the rifle.
Not a good idea, and from someone who has used weapons, bloody dangerous!
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The guy's been punished via the suspension. He did a bad thing, and has admitted so. I've no doubt there must have been a high degree of peer pressure at play when he and his family were in that particular environment.
Fact is, this is another non-story, and highlights the fact that the opposition in Holyrood has a distinct lack of talent. And I don't see it getting any better to be honest.
There's nobody to match Mr Salmond and I truly think the way in which he dealt with Ms Jamieson's point today proves that.
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Ha ha ha ha
"A junior member of the government, Siobhain McDonagh, is sacked after calling for a Labour leadership contest. "
If you want a laugh watch the video of this! She says, using an annoying rising inflection: "I think we need a leadership election?" and Gordon Brown, using an annoying rising inflection said: "You're sacked?"
Ha ha ha ha...desperate unionists take desperate measures.
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#156 Neil
I suspect that you are a "townie".
I was brought up in rural Aberdeenshire where crow shoots were common in the 1950s - they dispersed the flocks which damaged the crops.
My father took me out on crow shoots (I think from when I was about 10?). That was part of the cultural norm.
Treating behaviours which are appropriate to different cultural environments as if they had occurred in comtemporary urban Scotland, is simply stupid.
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#156.
Neil_Small147.
There is a difference of culture here. In Britain, I would never allow children to use any type of weapon. Guns, swords etc etc. Pakistan however, guns are more acceptable, almost apart of their culture, their way of life. As far as I know, the person in question was somewhere in or near the tribal areas. If you know Pakistan then you would know the dangers in the area. Militants, bandits etc etc Guns are therefore apart of their life, their world. Should we be able to give someone trouble for taking part in their own way of life? They were from Pakistan afterall, the children would have been supervised and of course trusted.
In Canada, I have forgotten the exact place but the people hunt for seals I beleive (could be wrong). Children as young as five are taught to use rifles. Should we give these people trouble for their own way of life?
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Goodness! It moves fast. Isn't there an argument to make the blog entries properly threaded (like the old USEnet)?
Anyway...
#126
"There are many US towns of less than 50,000 inhabitants that prove it is entirely possible for such small communities to run the vast majority of their own services;"
Its an interesting point, however, presumably the executive and legislatures of those towns are answerable to county, state and ultimately federal jursdiction and thus, we'd need to organise several tiers above 'local'?
Also, I would fear that devolving some issues too locally would mean a loss of some economies of scale and a possible loss of expert knowledge in key areas e.g. I can invision something like this happening if they devolved education to borough-level...Scary!
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#117 TP Said:
"#111.
"...whereby we devolve 'local' powers to regional assemblies..."
Are you forgetting that Scotland is a country, not a region?"
Well no but in the context of the message (and for conciseness) I didn't make the distinction.
However, whether you call it a region or a country wouldn't make a significant difference to how it would be viewed in (my version of) a federal structure - splitting England into two or three regions would be roughly equivalent to Scotland and Wales, maybe with London as a 'Washington D.C.'-style city state.
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#162.
It is rather important that Scotland is kept a country, not a region which may be mistaken as apart of England.
You would have a far difficult battle to fight encouraging England to break up into regions, then you have the Nationalists to answer to up North who will not like the change because it is more difficult for a region to claim Independence rather then a country.
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159. At 7:18pm on 12 Sep 2008, oldnat wrote:
#156 Neil
I suspect that you are a "townie".
I was brought up in rural Aberdeenshire where crow shoots were common in the 1950s - they dispersed the flocks which damaged the crops.
My father took me out on crow shoots (I think from when I was about 10?). That was part of the cultural norm.
Treating behaviours which are appropriate to different cultural environments as if they had occurred in comtemporary urban Scotland, is simply stupid.
Wrong again Old Nat. And I'm originally from Aberdeenshire as well. I know country ways quite well thank you.
The bottom line here is that the cultural situation - if that is the best way to put it - is far different these days.
And without being racist - which I am not - remember that the weapon was being fired in Pakistan. I'm talking about politics is this sense, not race or religion. Look at what is happening in the region for goodness sakes. Look at the problems they have over there, and yet you have a British (or Scottish if you want to be picky) politican getting a child to fire a gun.
Cultural differences or not, you do not have children playing with real weapons. I'm no pacifist, and served in the Forces, so I understand weapons very well. Automatic rifles are extremely dangerous to adults, and you have this man letting a child fire it!
If people are given rifles for hunting purposes, or crow shoots, then fair enough. This incident was about entertainment. You tell me what culture is acceptable where a child is given an automatic weapon to play with.
I don't care what party Mr Hanif represents. I would have applied the same argument to anyone - politician or not.
What annoyed me - apart from Mr Hanif's actions - are Cathy J's decision to raise it at FM Questions; and for Alex Salmond to allow him to stay in the SNP at all.
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Just to add to the above. I am well aware that tribal areas in Pakistan and Afghanistan are extremely dangerous and that these rifles are carried by many people.
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#159 oldnat
I trust that your crow shooting days are over and you now have respect for the flora and fauna that lives in "our" world.
I have lived, and was brought up in, the country for most of my life and have always abhorred how we as intellegent responsible people have the arrogance to go and shoot other living creatures for the benifit of "us".
When are we going to ditch our unintellegent ways and understand that we don't own the planet but are mearly short term custodians.
As to the rest of the blog what is racism?
Political correctness and media have turned it into such a sensitive subject that at the slightest hint now someone will try to play the race card.
I still get called a "Jock", Welsh are "Taffs", Irish are "Paddys", French are "Frogs" etc etc but I don't find it offensive. I dare say some would but where do you draw the line.
#106 brigadier
You'll never know but sarcastic ..no, cynical..yes
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# 122
Absolutely. As you say Alex Salmond chooses his words most carefully. Emotive they may be to some, but to others they are the truth.
An example of 'fleecing' is the Westminister government's withholding of the care allowance for Scotland's disabled and elderly. Even the labour party tried to have this money returned to Scotland but to no avail.
You may think fleecing is wrong in that context. I think it's honest and healthy because that's exactly what Westminster did - they fleeced Scotland.
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Neil_Small147:
If you understand the dangers of the Pakistan Tribal Areas then why are you against the child using the weapon? I am against children using weapons, but since this was in Pakistan, used by someone from Pakistan then surely the cultural ties they have we should overlook, since its their ways, not ours?
"You tell me what culture is acceptable where a child is given an automatic weapon to play with."
I used to watch Andy McNabs Tour of Duty. It showed you one young boy, age 14, in Afganistan as apart of the Afgani Security. He held an AK 47 and was gaurding, along with several men, an abandoned Soviet building.
I beleive that the Middle East may be the place, that young men are taught to use weapons at an early age. For their own safety of course.
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Not only is the decision to pretend that Mr Hanif has done something wrong absolutely ridiculous, especially as it arises from trying to impose our own mores on a totally differtent culture - he and his family went shooting in Pakistan rather than Paisley after all, but since no-one to my knowledge has tried to accuse him of actually shooting human beings or even crows, its reasonable to suppose that he and his family were knocking holes in tin cans, and that the "training camp" nonsense simply indicates that they were very responsibly doing that shooting on a range rather than simply blasting off into the landscape
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This blog has move from the best that Labour can come up with to attack a minority Government on something which has been dealt with rather expediently by the SNP onto weapons and culture.
For those that think that guns have no place in a "democratic" society should maybe look over the pond whose government wish to instill their culture and beliefs on other countries by force.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/7416120.stm
"He said all those people in the Midwest, you've got to have compassion for them because they're clinging to their guns and their Bibles. I found that quite offensive. We all go to church on Sunday and we all carry guns."
Those same Labour party members agreed to join the same group. Hypocrisy at its worst.
The sooner there is a GE election the better for all Nations in the UK.
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Is this tedious argument still going on?
It looks as if the saw "whoever mentions racism/ the nazis first, loses the argument.", is holding true.
The SNP having mentioned racism first, lose because we are now bogged down in an endless tirade of more holier than thou statments of how some of our best friends are...
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My 166 for "mearly " read merely
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#159 Neil
Apologies for getting your origins wrong.
However, you cannot compare Scotland today with Pakistan in recent years in any meaningful way.
All I was doing was suggesting that what was totally acceptable in 1950's Scotland, is not acceptable now.
It is meaningless to try to impose 21st century European moral concepts onto other societies.
The Hanif controversy is clearly a familial dispute which has been politicised in response to a daughter's claims.
I have no idea whether the daughter's attempts to villify her father deserve political consideration or not - I don't imagine that you know that either.
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I need to clarify what I was trying to get at.
I understand what the situation in Pakistan is, and I know children are routinely armed with weapons.
What I am trying to point out is that a Scottish politician has been seen to do something that is unacceptable in this country, and in my opinion is not fit to represent any political party.
If you can imagine, for example, a diplomat from another country spotted getting drunk in the UK; some countries in the world would deem that to be unacceptable behaviour.
As usual, this has been blown out of all proportion - by all sides.
Alex Salmond should have expelled him immediately. Cathy J should have kept her mouth shut and if asked by the media to reply that it is a matter for the SNP. That immediately puts the spotlight onto the SNP. The media can ask what they want without being scrutinised - politicians cannot.
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#174 Neil
I'll go with much of that.
I have no idea whether Hanif's stance on issues in general justifies expulsion from the party, or whether the suspension is sufficient to make the point that what was acceptable in Pakistan a few years ago, is not OK for a contemporary Scottish Councillor.
Whatever the circumstances, I feel sorry for a family that has been reduced to such public squabbling.
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#174Neil_Small147
"What I am trying to point out is that a Scottish politician has been seen to do something that is unacceptable in this country, and in my opinion is not fit to represent any political party."
I remember a certain G.Galloway visiting a Saddam Hussein (alleged terrorist) and saluting him, then a Western alliance had Hussein hung in a kangaroo court.
Whose the real guilty party/parties? Its all in the eye of the beholder.
It just go to show how low the Labour party has sunk over in the last 10yrs, the abyss is waiting.
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The Calman Commission has posted more submissions that it has received.
However, it has not posted the evidence given by Tavish Scott for the Lib-Dems or Henry McLeish (only available through press releases from these witnesses).
No word of any official evidence from Labour or the Tories. This seems a strange way to run a process which was trumpeted as enhancing democracy.
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#174.
"What I am trying to point out is that a Scottish politician has been seen to do something that is unacceptable in this country, and in my opinion is not fit to represent any political party."
I am confident that Hanif never represented the Nationalists (or Scotland, Britain) while he was seen using the weapon (as far as I know). Would that make it acceptable at the time? Considering the circumstances that they are from Pakistan and Tribal Areas etc etc
I don't agree that he should have been expelled. It appears to have been a one-off situation that has not been repeated. They have been punished, first time offenders always should get off lightly as a warning that it can be worse. No one was hurt, it may have been a moment where they were not thinking of the future consequences.
I am happy that the person was punished though. It is more then what Labour have done to Wendy, we should be thankful for that much. In the future, I would support the idea that the man be expelled because then I would see that he is not responsible enough or trustworthy.
I do agree with you that Cathy J should have kept her mouth shut. It was an internal SNP affair afterall that was delt with, surely if the SNP wanted advice they would have asked her?
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Alex was visibly upset in the footage of FMQ but as somebody has pointed out this could have been in embaressment at the situation and i think Cathy j should not have been point scoring at this issue. anyway its my 10th wedding anniversary and im getting pretty drunk so ill bide you fare well ... id better go see mrs rabbiehippo lol
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I have watched this blog and the statements with a humerous slant, however, I can't believe that someone would even think that if a Scot wishes to vote for independence then they must have racist tendencies. I have lived in England most of my life and, at the same time, been a fervent supporter of the SNP. My daughter is English and so are my grandchildren. Most of my friends are English and I would have to add that I have rarely come across an English person that I did not like. However, I still want my country to be independent from Westminster; that does not make me racist it just makes me like the idea that I want my country to go down a different path from Westminster. We live in a democratic country and have the right to decide how we wish to vote and think. So please, don't bring the spectre of racism or anti-Englishness into this debate as it does not belong here. Also I would like to add that when Scotland gets its indepence I will continue to live quite happily in England where I have made my home. I want to be friends with the English not an enemy.
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Pro-Scottishness does NOT equate (or even approximate) to anti-Englishness.
I share no common cause with those who pursue the politics of hatred (of anything or anyone), but I do look forward to the day when the Scottish people [in which I include ALL the people(s) of Scotland, whatever their origins] will be able fully to exercise the right of self-determination.
Inasmuch as the dimness of personality of each of the Labour candidates would seem likely to hasten the day when we can resume our place among the free nations of the world, I say - to quote a certain Ms Alexander - "Bring it on!"
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176. At 11:33pm on 12 Sep 2008, cynicalHighlander wrote:
#174Neil_Small147
"What I am trying to point out is that a Scottish politician has been seen to do something that is unacceptable in this country, and in my opinion is not fit to represent any political party."
I remember a certain G.Galloway visiting a Saddam Hussein (alleged terrorist) and saluting him, then a Western alliance had Hussein hung in a kangaroo court.
Whose the real guilty party/parties? Its all in the eye of the beholder.
It just go to show how low the Labour party has sunk over in the last 10yrs, the abyss is waiting.
Saddam Hussein sanctioned the use of nerve gas - remember that as well.
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Iain Gray got the job.
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#182 Neil_Small147
I remember a certain Donald Rumsfeld, at the time Ronald Reagan's special envoy to the Middle East, meeting Saddam Hussein (alleged terrorist) on 19-20 December 1983 and shaking hands warmly with him. Then a Western alliance, which included at its head the same Donald Rumsfeld, "had Hussein hung in a kangaroo court." Of course, Rumsfeld wasn't particularly bothered if Iraq's oil resources, because they were "about to run out at any moment and weren't producing much in the ways of tax revenues". Hmmm.....that seems to have a familiar ring to it!
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Anyone living in the vicinity of Bute House should probably expect to be kept awake all night long by the sound of laughter - for weeks to come...
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And now Robin Harper, Scottish Green leader is stepping down.
What is going on among the Scottish political leaders?
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184. At 12:15pm on 13 Sep 2008, bighullabaloo wrote:
#182 Neil_Small147
I remember a certain Donald Rumsfeld, at the time Ronald Reagan's special envoy to the Middle East, meeting Saddam Hussein (alleged terrorist) on 19-20 December 1983 and shaking hands warmly with him. Then a Western alliance, which included at its head the same Donald Rumsfeld, "had Hussein hung in a kangaroo court." Of course, Rumsfeld wasn't particularly bothered if Iraq's oil resources, because they were "about to run out at any moment and weren't producing much in the ways of tax revenues". Hmmm.....that seems to have a familiar ring to it!
I'm not defending US politics. I'm simply pointing out that while some people seem to support George Galloway he PRAISED Saddam for "his courage".
Did George go and speak to the Kurds and praise their courage?
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This breed of Westminster Poodle really does seem to be popular in the Labour party.
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#149 bighullabaloo
I agree with you that, as times have changed, we can expect a different outcome this time. I am optimistic that the technology that is so widely available to the electorate now will make it highly likely that the dirty tricksters are wasting their time and probably aiding and abetting those whom they are seeking to discredit discreditably.
My own response to this kind of thing is to be dismayed, of course, because I prefer to be presented with rational argument based upon verifiable facts. Anyone who can't come up with that can forget about convincing me.
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#189 Euro-unionist
There are those on here who ridicule the idea of "rational argument based upon verifiable facts" and who, ironically, even see an abandonment of such an approach as evidence of their own "reasonableness."
For example: "Now, if I was some of the people on this thread, I'd be saying 'How dare you suggest that I'm suggesting that AS is inciting racism - Where did I suggest that - provide a quote where I have, etc, etc.' However, I'm a bit more reasonable than that."
This was said - incredibly - even though the same poster had been forced to admit during an earlier exchange with me that they were arguing against something I hadn't even said. Naturally, I can provide a quote to prove that if necessary! Clearly some people never learn.
If you want to see what happens on here when you do ask for proof of a counter-claim made with seeming certainty and unshakable confidence, then you don't have to look any further than #60. Turned out it was the same old story - just another unproven opnion with nothing to back it up.
When proof is demanded the fall back position is to write a load of nonesense then accuse the person demanding the proof of needing to "lighten up". I wasn't impressed.
If we're going to start ridiculing people for asking for evidence or quotes to justify a counter-claim or accusation, then we might as well hand the whol thing over to the Ministry of Truth right now and forget the whole idea of a meaningful society.
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I find it quite extraordinary that SNP supporters on this blog are trying to play down the significance of the conduct of Councillor Hanif and the reaction of the leadership to it.
Perhaps they would like to answer the following questions:-
What exactly was the Councillor Hanif doing there?
Who does he know, and more importantly, who do they know who could arrange such a thing?
Why was he visiting a tribal area which is notoriously lawless, has a porous border with Afghanistan and is notorious as an entrepot for insurgents?
How did he manage to get in and out alive?
Who exactly was this camp training and for what?
These questions go to the very heart of who exactly is in the SNP, who they know, and who the SNP is prepared to deal with in pursuit of their policies.
And these questions are not going to go away. When taken in conjunction with the SNP own policies of withdrawal from NATO, removal of Britain's strategic nuclear deterrent and cosying up to some very nasty dictators. It is entirely legitimate to ask whether an independent Scotland will be the only rogue state in Western Europe?
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#191 Dick-Whittington
Instead of the usual list of accusatory questions, why don't you go away and find out the answers, then let the rest of ust know whether there's any reason for believing that the incident deserves greater significance?
I know that the idea of doing something more useful than throwing out a list of questions of the "when did you start beating your wife?" variety, but it would certainly make a welcome change from reading the same pathetic attempts to smear the SNP without your having to take any responsibility for it.
If the next thing you post is just another irrational personal attack, then we already know that you're only interested in throwing out unjustified accusatory questions and not really interested in offering any evidence that there are any grounds whatsoever for doing so.
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#190 Bighullabaloo
(sigh)
Yet another example of you totally (deliberately?) missing the point of what I was saying.
Seeing as you are fond of quoting me, perhaps you can provide a quote where I ridicule the idea of
"rational arguement based upon verifiable facts".
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#190 Bighullabaloo
Oh, and by the way, the quote you give in #190 won't do.
In that quote I was ridiculing you and your posturing, "I'm God's gift to bloggers" attitude not the idea of rational debte.
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#194 Bangingonabout
I've already provided the quote in #190.
Here's the quote from Bangingonabout's #285 in the recent Bether with Brian blog "Politics as football": "I admit, I can't quote two sentences where you actually claim anything. There, make you feel better? You've won !!"
So, yet again, ACTUAL PROOF that what I'm saying is true.
You just can't beat genuine verifiable facts, can you?!
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#191.
"What exactly was the Councillor Hanif doing there?"
Hanif was not councillor around this time. Hanif was in Pakistan for family matters, his children were interested in the weapon and Hanif took them to where they could use it.
"Who does he know, and more importantly, who do they know who could arrange such a thing?"
It's not difficult. I used handguns in Germany (I was 13), in the Middle East its easy to find/use these weapons. Especailly in the Tribal parts. It's something alot of people have, mainly for their own security.
"Why was he visiting a tribal area which is notoriously lawless, has a porous border with Afghanistan and is notorious as an entrepot for insurgents?"
You spend far to much time watching the news. It is true, the Tribal parts of Pakistan are notorious for militants but there are average joes earning their living by farming in these parts.
"How did he manage to get in and out alive?"
Again, you watch the news to much. These people are not animals, they are like you and I, I am sure Hanif went into a car and drove in/out of the area like many others do. You don't need special forces to protect you...
"Who exactly was this camp training and for what?"
It was not a training camp. It was a military-style camp. Hanif was close to Kashmir, if you know Kashmir (I doubt you do) then you would know that there is tension between Pakistan Kashmir and Indian Kashmir. The base is most likily for security in the area.
"And these questions are not going to go away."
I answered your questions, looks like they are going away. The SNP want to leave NATO but contribute to NATO as an equal partner. France is in a similar boat, untill recently they have not been fully apart of NATO. Britain's strategic nuclear deterrent is a waste of money. Scotland should spend the money on worthwhile projects that will benefit the future. Besides, if America can track Russian Subs during the cold war by using their satalites then our Subs will be found and destroyed if someone decided to attack us (destroy Trident first so we can't retaliate). Salmond was not cosying up to dictators, simply looking out for his own interests by asking for support to remove nuclear weapons from Scottish soil. He wrote to many Western Democratic countries to, remember?
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#191 Dick-Whittington
The content of your post reminds me of a letter I read earlier this year in the Washington Times from a person with a very improbable name. It was apparently a warning to the American people concerning "the Edinburgh-Tehran axis", which the SNP, Americans were invited to believe, was busy forging with the ayatollahs so as to bring down the edifice of western civilization.
All of Scotland was terribly concerned about this, they were told. Beware of the Scottish Government, they were told . . . by a person claiming to be an English academic at a Scottish university.
So is there anything that you can tell us about the Edinburgh-Tehran axis now? How is that getting along? Has the SNP made any progress in undermining western civilization yet? Do we need to call in our American allies to liberate us from ourselves? Or does that come later?
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#195
Nope, the quote you gave in #190 won't do as I've already said - I was ridiculing YOU.
So, another quote please. This time one that actually has me ridiculing the idea of rationale debate.
Yes that other quote (#285) from me is true. But, as I wasn't denying that bit of your #190 it is irrelevent to this particular argument.
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#197
"Do we need to call in our American allies to liberate us from ourselves? Or does that come later?"
Ha ha ha ha. Nice to see a genuine bit of humour on here for once. Of course, from his earlier posts we know that we might only need to call in our American allies after the English invasion of Scotland to secure the Scottish oilfields.
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#198 Bangingonabout
The quote I've provided in #190 does do, and quite nicely, thank you.
You've just admitted you were wrong while you were ridiculing me, so it is totally relevant to this particular argument.
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#194 Bangingonabout
You're really boring. I've already moved on to the next blog.
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Bighullabaloo and Bangingonabout, does the bickering between you both ever stop? I can't seem to take you anymore.
;-)
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#202 Thomas_Porter
Don't blame me.
I made a perfectly reasonable point in #190 and 20 minutes later he jumped in trying to deny what he's now been forced to admit is verifiable fact!
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#200
Nope. Provide me a quote which actually has me ridiculing rational debate rather than satarising your approach to blogging.
Either that or have to grace to admit you can't.
#202
Thomas. I think "bickering" probably is a very valid description. I have no problem with Bighullabaloo expressing his views, it's just his manner of doing so that rubs me up the wrong way.
I apologise to you, it must be really tiring for other people on this blog.
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#204.
"I apologise to you, it must be really tiring for other people on this blog."
Not at all. It's rather amusing and a change from reading someone moping about the Nationalists, or someone debating about Independence that clutters the blog - no matter what the blog is actually about.
My #202 I was suppose to write anywhere instead of anymore.
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#204 Bangingonabout
Yes, you are really tiring to everyone on this blog. Including me.
The quote was an attempt to ridicule me for demanding rational debate! You said you believe yourself to be a "more reasonable" person because you don't demand evidence or quotes as proof.
Yet you've just admitted there was no reason to ridicule me in the first place - since you couldn't come up with proof that I'd said anything at all. Which I've provided proof of, by quoting you!
Talk about game, set and match!
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#206
Please, get over yourself and that chip on your shoulder.
The quote was ridiculing your aggressive, posturing, "in-your-face" approach to blogging. Not that you were demanding rational debate.
There are other people on this blog (Thomas, oldnat for example) that share many of the same political views as you and expect some sort of evidence when someone asserts something.
I don't have a problem with them. So maybe you are the problem.
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#207 Bangingonabout
No, I'm afraid YOU are the problem. But you have such a thick skull it's just not sinking in.
How many times do you need to be proven wrong before it sinks into your thick skull?
Here's what you wrote: "Now, if I was some of the people on this thread, I'd be saying 'How dare you suggest that I'm suggesting that AS is inciting racism - Where did I suggest that - provide a quote where I have, etc, etc.' However, I'm a bit more reasonable than that."
The "some people" (which you have admitted was directed at me) are people who ask for evidence that they've made a ?suggestion? in the first place. They are people who demand you ?provide a quote? as proof that they've said what you claim they?ve said. You see yourself as "more reasonable" than people like that (i.e. people like me).
The problem is, it?s more reasonable to demand proof than it is NOT to demand proof: in other words, common sense tells you that the truth is the exact opposite of what you?ve claimed.
I can't explain it any simpler than that and I have no intention of doing so, even for the amusement of my good friend Thomas_Porter.
I have already taught you a free lesson by showing you that arguing against claims no one actually made is a waste of everybody's time. Now you are arguing it?s "more reasonable" NOT to demand proof than it is to demand proof: another complete waste of everybody's time.
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#208
I'm not arguing anything of the sort.
I've already said that I was ridiculing your manner of blogging. If I am more "reasonable" it is because I am less aggressive in my responses and more willing to engage in a discussion rather than posturing.
If you want to interpret something I said in such a way so that you can argue against it - that's up to you.
It's your own time you're wasting.
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#209 Bangingonabout
The truth is you were still smarting after I showed you up as a thicko for claiming I'd said things you couldn't later provide any quotes for.
So like a huffy five year old, you decided to "get your own back" by having a sly little sarcastic dig at "some people" who demand proof of unsubstantiated claims about what they're supposed to have said. In your little fantasy world, that makes you "more reasonable" than those people.
But now I've called you on the little sarcastic dig as well, and you're angry because I've bested you on that as well, just like I bested you on your unsubstantiated claims about what I'd said.
How many more times do I need to run rings around you before you finally wise up?
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