Unity sustained
As it turned out, unity was sustained. All parties in the Holyrood chamber condemned the circumstances surrounding the HBOS take-over - and urged efforts to minimise the jobs impact upon Scotland.
Prompted by opposition leaders, Alex Salmond disclosed that he has already had discussions with the prime minister, the chairman of Lloyds TSB, the trades unions and others.
Politicians will, as Mr Salmond said, "strain every sinew".
Iain Gray, making his first appearance as leader, offered full backing. As did Annabel Goldie and Tavish Scott.
In reality, what can now be done? Few expect, seriously, that the HQ of the new combined bank will be based in Scotland.
Scotland can ask - and, indeed, should press for the maximum. But Scotland may not get.
The best may be the retention of some head office function, in both retail and corporate.
The key is to hold on to senior decision-makers, not just executive managers.
Jobs? Perhaps not as many will go from High Street retail in Scotland as feared, given the relatively limited overlap here.
The big losses could be in back office functions. Perhaps 3-400 in total?
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It is, according to the deal document, "a compelling business combination".
Intriguing word, that. Could mean "attractive" or "externally driven". I veer towards the latter.
The same document, charting the take-over of HBOS by Lloyds TSB, promises to use The Mound in Edinburgh as the "Scottish headquarters", to hold the AGM in Scotland, to print Scottish bank notes and to focus on keeping jobs in Scotland.
All comforting, to some extent. Against that, the deal foreshadows inevitable efficiencies of scale, eliminating duplication.
That means branches. That means jobs. My sympathy to those facing uncertainty.
Plus headquarters functions will transfer to London. That will be a source of political debate at Westminster and here at Holyrood as politicians scramble to pick up the pieces.
Among the first up in that regard will be Iain Gray. Labour's newly elected leader at Holyrood is due to pose questions to the first minister today for the first time.
Intriguing approach
His topic? Guess. Labour has already proposed a "banking summit", indicating that they favour a cross-partisan approach.
Alex Salmond stressed yesterday that he is not opposed to the merger per se. He is, however, angry with what he told me were the "spivs and speculators" who had targeted HBOS and enforced these developments.
It will be intriguing to see whether a multi-party approach can be sustained.
I'm 
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~58~RS~)
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Such a sad day for the Scottish Nation, when we dont run our own affairs in our own country. Theres little doubt that if we ran our own affairs we could have guaranteed the survival of what is a viable Scottish Banking Institution that is merely suffering the effect of a bunch of overseas specualators, who have made nothing in their life, that they could look back to on their deathbeds.
Yes go for it Unionists. Go on about how its just the way of the world, and how we are too weak and feeble a Nation to have not only survived this further disease of a World Financial System that only guarantees wealth for the bloodsuckers.
The Bank of Scotland should have been supported by the foreign power in Westminster that looks after the English first in every case.
Where is our money and where is the Scottish Nations right to determine Scottish Childrens future.
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Brian, Brian, Brian,
Wake up and smell the coffee, old bean !!
The old 'Bank of Scotland' is dead and buried !
She was like a fair country maiden who went to live in the dissolute city, and fell into their awful ways, and lost her, erm, modesty and started being a bit to, er, 'available' with credit and pushy with her 'services' instead of waiting to be asked for, er, credit...
When Lloyds and TSB merged, it was an 'agreed merger', and was rather painful for a while as the two decided to take the 'best of each', which made for painful decision making.
When Gordon Pell left the organisation to go and work for NatWest, he was the only senior guy kept on when the Royal Bank of Scotland TOOK OVER. He was kept on so that they wouldn't make the same errors of dithering and indecision made at LloydsTSB.
And so it will be this time - HBOS is dead and buried. The Lloyds TSB team have now got the whip hand, and it is their top team, and they alone, who will call the shots in the new organisation.
Someone out there is still living in cloud cuckoo land that the Mount Street building will the Head Office of the new merged organisation. No ! It will still be used as 'A HEAD OFFICE building'.
It will, most categorically NOT be THE head office building. There is much, much more on this to drift out and become apparent in the weeks and months ahead, and I ain't going to spoil the surprise for readers...
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Oh, and by the way, tell Alex Salmond the next time you see him that whingeing about the 'short-selling' is a complete and utter 'red-herring'...
HBOS was following an unsustainable business model for some time, and had shown no sign of veering away from that 'high road' onto a safer path on the dull 'low road'...
Had the 'short-selling' and removal of the deposits not taken place, it would not for one second have altered the fact that good old canny Scottish prudence, and Yorkshire good sense, was suddenly replaced by 'go for growth' and a 'dash for market share' at the hands of Andy Hornby. I'm sure it isn't only him to blame, but he was the guy who should have 'the buck stops here' on his t-shirt..
If the short-sellers hadn't moved, sooner or later a young lad would have pointed out that the 'Emperor Hornby has no clothes', and we would be facing these decisions, and rather panicky, ill-thought solutions, just some months down the line..
Your problem, if I might be so bold Brian, is that you genuinely believe in the honesty and goodness of good Scottish folk. Sadly, the rest of the world isn't all like that, more's the pity, and the world of business makes politicians look like absolute models of probity and upstanding good virtue...
Keep afflicting the comfortable - your articles are, if anything, far too soft on the rapacious executives who ARE behaving with the sort of short-term outlook which is understandable in 'short selling traders' [who live or die by their decisions] but which is simply not in the job spec of those who are charged with being stalwarts of the money people have deposited with them..
Much more to come on this in the days ahead...
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I don't think it's possible to come up with a more "compelling" argument for Scottish independence than what we have witnessed these last few days with HBOS.
I am sure the people of Glenrothes will be the first to show their anger at the UK government's abandonment of a Scottish bank - despite both the prime minister and chancellor being "Scots" themselves.
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#1
Westminister is not a foreign power. That is not a unionist opinion that is just plain old fashioned fact. People all around this land voted for the Government in a fair and democratic election. Narrow minded views never can and never will be of any benefit to the future of Scotland.
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I see LordBedGelelrt swallowing the official line!
all I will say is that with the Labour Party's finances in dire straits, I await with baited breath for the disclosure of how much money this new 'super bank' is going to donate to the Labour Party's coffers?
Slaite!
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bighullaballoo - you make a good point, but that decision was taken a long time ago when the Bank Of Scotland gave up their independence to join in with the Halifax, Leeds Permanent BS and renounce their old status and become a 'public limited company'.
Many who got 'windfalls' following demutualisation thought they were getting a 'free lunch'. They were not. They were selling their birthright, and control, to shareholders who simply don't have any national loyalty or interests other than the share price. And will take much more risk.
The battle was lost a long time ago - what has happened in the past few weeks has just been divvying up the spoils.
I would wholeheartedly recommend anyone with a couple of hours on their hands to read Joel Bakan's 'The Corporation'. It is a fascinating insight into that beast which is controlling ever more aspects of our lives.
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Brain
It's very comforting to hear that Iain Gray is galloping into Holyrood on his white charger!
Maybe he will be able to tell the Scottish public why his bosses in Downing Street have abandoned Scotland's oldest bank in her darkest hour?
And why have Labour failed to protect Scottish jobs, with telling whimpering "it's all for the best, really" without as much as a blush?
It's stretching our belief to breaking point if Gray tries to blame this debacle on the SNP!
The Scottish public sees the real problem here. Their verdict will be: "we can't get rid of Labour fast enough."
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As we have seen in the past token gestures by corporations commiting themselves to Scotland have a shorter life span than Labour leaders at Holyrood.
Who would trust a bank like Lloyds who have a history of out-sourcing thousands of jobs to the Asia.
My advice is to close all your accounts at Lloyds-Halifax and move your money to the Royal Bank of Scotland. That way you protect Scottish jobs and the Scottish financial sector.
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# 7 lordBeddGelert
Yes, I'm sure all the Scottish HBOS employees will be fretting horribly about the bank's merger with the Halifax when they are signing on at the job centre as a result of Gordon Brown and Alastair Darling's failure to protect their jobs.
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#5.
Salmondella.
To an extent, Westminister is a foreign power. It does of course depend how you see the United Kingdom. Afterall the United Kingdom is made out of two or three countries (depending how you want to status Wales) and one province, which is Northern Ireland. Are the people of Wales and England not 'foreign' since they are from different countries? Of course you may see the United Kingdom as one big country and you will not accept as England or Wales as being foreign places. Then of course you should also consider who holds the balance of power at Westminister. England has the most representation by far, even if Irish, Welsh and Scottish MP's stood together and said no the English MP's can still press on with whatever they want.
Now back to topic...
For what I saw of FMQT I was incredibly impressed. For once each party worked together instead of fighting with one another. This is how a country should be run and I will be keeping a close eye to see how it goes. It's not every day we get to witness the parties working together...
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Would it really matter if Scotland was Independent re the Financial Institutions - I think not.
Its the market forces at work, and you can disagree, but that is what the markets (and central Government) have decided that its the best way to save HBOS - Could have been a disaster if it had have fully sunk
Re the proposed changes to stop the@City@ doing this in future - no chance, that where the real people who run Governments make the real money
As stated earlier - wake up and smell the coffee, just bear in mind who plants the seeds that grow the beans!!
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So, Darling is "extremely concerned" about job losses. Is it not he and Brown who have ridden roughshod over the very rules that should prevent such mergers taking place, and so such huge job losses?
And please gnats, stop trying to spin an anti-Unionist yarn from this issue as you do with all others. Unless of course you are proposing that an indepenedent Scotland is to work in isolation from the global economy?
The Bank of Scotland ceased to exist in 2001. The great Scottish institution that you are decrying the loss of is (or should I say was) as British as they come.
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Bored, bored, bored of the some of the bitter and niave rantings about the destruction of a 'Scottish' bank and framing it as the English putting down the Scots. Pure victimhood at best or just brazen prevarication at worst. Even Salmond is "not opposed to the merger."
This bank was not in business for the Scottish (nor English, Welsh or Irish) people. It was in business for business. It was a PLC, one of it's founding fathers was English, it also had many subsideries such as Sainsbury Bank; Barclays had a 35% stake and who knows the nationality of its shareholders.
This should be about the risk culture of banks not twisted paranioa of point scoring nationalism (or unionism for that matter).
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#11
Whit?! No different view points are of any relevance. We are talking about the fact of the matter. Voted by Scottish people so cannot be considered a foreign power....end off.
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What is this?
Stop the world Scotland wants to get off?
How can you possibly justify comments that "in an independent Scotland this wouldn't happen."?
So, in Scotland, Capitalism would be an optional extra - is that how it will work?
All things will be state owned dare market forces force organisations with poor business plans to the wall?
That will make it a world leader certainly.
Speculation is how the market works, always has and despite this unpleasantness, always will.
And any regulation wouldn't protect Scotland - it might have stopped UK speculators but do you think anyone in Hong Kong cares?
And how come it is okay when RBS takes over Natwest but not when an English Bank takes over a Scottish one?
Either you operate on the world stage or you don't you can't pick and choose.
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#13.
Darkerandbluer.
Not all Nationalists are not the problem here. Some Unionists have taken this opportunity as some type of victory for the Union. They see the situation as England bailing out Scotland, hence why the Union should continue as some sort of protection. Is this behaviour not disgusting? How can some Unionists claim victory when even the Scottish Parliament was seen cooperating with one another despite their differences? This is not an England vs Scotland matter, this is not a Scottish Gov vs London Gov matter, this is not even a Unionist vs Nationalist issue.
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I think that there's been a degree of naivety over the "Scottishness" of banking institutions. The cruel fact of the matter is that these institutions Scottishness is periferal to their mission. That mission of course, is to maximise profit for their shareholders.
An independent scotland wouldn't actually make a jot of difference in this debate. Unless of course, that independendent government nationalised those very institutions. A course of action which I would absolutely be in favour of.
I run my own business and know that banks are simply run by....how should we put it....absolute bankers.
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A weak Gordon Brown government could only have added to the woes of the past few days.
It is only too easy to accept that had the Scottish Government been in charge of the situation the outcome might well have been different.
Wasn't Salmond just brilliant at today's FMQs? What a statesman! I was incredibly proud of Scotland's First Minister.
Heck, I even noticed some commentator in The Herald saying he was the most able politician in Britain and could easily run a "National British Government".
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The rantings of the predictable in this blog and the last about the stealing of Scotlands bank are really woeful. Go and get some help please.
Bank of Scotland wasn't a Scottish bank before Loyds TSB came along. What the last few days has shown is the global nature of the finacial markets. Individual countries have little influence on the outcomes.
Where influence can be taken, in limited measure is with the regulation of the financial industry. But to blame recent events totally on inadequate regulation is also wrong, increase regulation and the market moves to where regulation is less.
THis ultimately does have an effect on the Independance debate, no doubt this can be argued for both sides.
However I don't see what an idependant socttish government would have been able to do any different either in the present climate or going into the future when the bank goes through restructuring.
Inevitably this will mean a HQ in London. I hope todays performance in Holyrood is the start of something, cross party working. It was what Donald Dewar always had in mind for the place.
I am sure though some will see this as part of the great UK conspiracy and see some wrong in it.
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16. Begone with your application of common sense, fact, logic, pragmatism and realism.
Such things have no place on this board!
Begone, I say!
Right, where were we?....Aaargh, it's the English trying to destroy our economy! It's a deliberate plot by them ********* unionists to destroy nationalism and the independence movement! In an independent Tartan Utopia, this would absolutely definitely not have happened!....ah, that's better.
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Should point out that, tecnically, LloydsTSb is actually a 'Scottish Bank'. Granted, it's corporate HQ is in Gresham Street in London but its registered HQ is at Henry Duncan House in Edinburgh. It also owns Scottish Widows.
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Dear Dairy, I mean Diary,
Here is my frist reprot on my reign of terror as leader of the Labour group at Holyrood.
What a day it has been, again, and indeed still is.
Thrown in at the deep end, and no mistake. I had, of course, intended to make a splash at FMQs but had not envisaged doing so in circumstances such as these . . . until I discovered what my boss was up to with HBOS.
Crivvens! There I stood with my laboriously prepared script in my hand, ready to confront the enemy of the state, the UK state, when all of a sudden it dawned on me that he looked every inch of him like a man who was not and could not be in the dock today. I had already worked this out, of course, and so didn't try to put him there. I think it was appreciated all round. I would have looked a right prat if I had adopted any other approach. That being so, I seem to have got over the first hurdle. I'm already doing better than Wendy. I had better avoid her for a while.
Eck rose to his feet. The chamber was agog with anticipation, and an eerie foreboding gripped me by the throat, as it became apparent that each and every person in the chamber looked to him as the tribune of the people, not me. Maybe I'll get a chance another day. Welcoming me to my place, Eck told us what he was doing on behalf of Scotland in the current crisis, and I could not fault him. Nobody could. Nobody did.
Astonishing the viewing public, no doubt, I adopted a quiet and businesslike approach and agreed with the First Minister about everything in connection with which he deserved agreement, especially the scandal of short trading, which the US government has suspended and the Russian government has made illegal today. In return he agreed with me. In fact, we got on so famously that my colleagues were as white as a sheet and as quiet as mice, so quiet that everyone in the chamber must have been able to hear everything that was said for a change.
I think I was a great success, but, unfortunately, so was Eck, it has to be said. This was not a day on which I could see my way clear to doing anything about that. In fact, I think I may be almost as impressed with him as everyone else was. He showed himself to be a worthy leader in a time of adversity for the whole of Scotland and, as such, rallied everyone behind him. I just have a nagging suspicion that underneath the surface trouble is brewing and that, if anyone is in the dock next week, it may be me.
PS. Note to myself: try harder to take your eyes off the script more without taking your eye off the ball. Not easy.
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17. Did you get binned?
You said you were "in the Army" but you are on here, every single day, spouting some very bitter nonsense about the UK. It does look suspiciously like the Army didn't want you and now you have a lot of time on your hands.
It's just that I remember, from my time in the Army, that we worked at least from 8.30am-6pm every day.
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#16 Blackivar
The French seem to manage to square the circle pretty well.
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#15.
Salmondella.
Of course, discard my view because it differs from the one you have.
"Voted by Scottish people so cannot be considered a foreign power....end off."
The Scottish people can not vote for English, Irish or Welsh MP's. So technically the British Parliament was not voted for by the Scottish public. Then again, the Scottish people did not vote for the Conservative Party but we got Thatcher in the end, didn't we?
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SKaufman
In accordance with the undertaking, dripping with irony though it was, that I gave to SKaufman recently and in line with my normal and indeed invariable practice of examining every issue from a multiplicity of perspectives, a procedure required to validate any point of view, I would suggest, I can now comment further on his, her or its remarkable contention that the noisy Labour group at Holyrood is in point of fact reason incarnate while the governing-party group and the First Minister first and foremost, with whose girth SKaufman appears to have an unhealthily irrational preoccupation, are in actuality to be taken to be evil incarnate in the form of at one moment a baying mob and at another "laughing policemen" intent upon suppressing the said voice of reason and thus imposing their brutal diktat upon a cowering populace bereft of effectual protection against and at the mercy of "the school bully".
At First Minister's Questions today, the first opportunity to observe the Scottish parliamentary ranks of the great Labour family, or rather what is left of it, under the leadership of their latest standard bearer, a successor to whom is conceivably already plotting his or her route to that unenviable position, did the school bully poke the spotty-faced weakling in the eye and run off with his lollipop? Did he come back to knock him on the head and rip open his satchel to reveal nothing more than a couple of cheese sandwiches and the outline of an essay entitled Economics Is Rubbish? Let us consult the Brahan Seer first of all. What has BT made of today's proceedings in the playground? After all, this is his blog, and so we should not elbow him out of the way altogether. I seem to have heard somewhere, furthermore - from the BBC, probably - that Auntie is impartiality incarnate. Is she not the ultimate champion of truth, goodness and the British way, letting justice roll down like the waters and righteousness like an everlasting stream? Well, you would expect nothing less after paying such a hefty licence fee, wouldn't you?
BH and I seem to think that today was not a day for judging FMQs. The threatened interests of the country were shown to have an able defender in the form of the FM, within the severe restraints of the powers currently available to him, and the Labour presence was quieter and better behaved than I have ever known it. Is this because of their new leader? Or have they got a guilty conscience about any aspect of recent events leading to the controversial merger? We shall see. If there is any bullying about, it had nothing to do with the proceedings at FMQs today.
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In all seriousness, please could the rabid, slavering nats on this board go out on the streets tonight, festooned in SNP badges, and spread their message among the people?
The people must, must, be told about this continued English conspiracy to destroy Scotland.
Many regards and kindest thanks.
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CORRECTION
Not BH, of course. BT. I beg his pardon.
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All those arguing "this wasn't a Scottish bank" are - as usual - taking too a blinkered view. The real problem, as Brian puts it, is that when a "British" company with many thousands of Scottish workers gets into serious trouble then: "Scotland may not get."
In other words, the Scottish government is in a weak position to protect its own workforce because we're lumbered with UK politicians who put their own self-preservation first. That's the real core of the problem.
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If the taxpayer is going to be expected to bail out any and all financial institutions for which failure is looming (the downside), then the taxpayer should benefit fully from the upside.
Rather than formally nationalise the banks, why not impose a 100% tax on their profits?
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I'm so saddened by the loss of Bank of Scotland although they were effectively 'taken over' by (rather than merged with) the Halifax 7 years ago. I think Brown has been quite happy to allow HBOS to be engulfed because he hopes it will be one in the eye for the Independence movement. Personally I think it it will have the opposite effect.
Brown's years as Chancellor now look far from prudent. He may shout now about the runs on the banks being a global problem and not al lot to do with his own policies but he has enthusiastically countenanced a culture of what amounts to reckless greedy financial chicanery. Talk about the unacceptable face of capitalism! It was said that Margaret Thatcher elevated the moneylenders to be of first importance in the land, but he has also been an uncritical enthusiast. His much vaunted financial accumen amounts to a load of smoke and mirrors and the recent results no better than the old Pyramid selling scam. Absolutely disgusting. Any word on curbing the spivs and speculators yet? Has Brown stepped in yet or is he being his usual leaden footed self?
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#1 Your away with the birds fella.
When was any bank ever "our" bank? Except perhaps the BofE and Northern Rock.
Even the all powerful american government can't "save" banks at the moment.
Chickens coming home to roost for years of unregulated parasitic capitalism.
We're witnessing an economic collapse at least as severe as in the 20's/30's.
Socialist policies offer the only viable solution. Planned investment and production for use not profit. Scottish "nationalism" is a distraction from the real issues.
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Lesson for us all become a rogue trader.
Is it true all u have to do is take a section of herbaceous border into the floor of a major stock exchange to set the ball rolling.
I might not know alot about macroeconomics but i know a hedge when i see it.
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OK there are a lot of spivs out there. But what about the spivs who ran HBOS and created this situation in the first place? I did not hear any comments from Salmond on this issue. What we are witnessing is the apotheosis of laissez-faire economics as supported by Thatcher, Blair and Salmond (he may have changed his tune since last Tuesday night). Francis Fukuyama was wrong when he said we have reached the end of history. This is the beginning of a new era. Let's hope we have some politicians who are up to it.
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Re Big hullaballoo
For the blinkered amongst us perhaps you could provide a little detail on exactly what a Scotiish Government could have done had we been an Independant Scottish nation to protect HBOS.
And Please no rhetoric, just clear steps that would make a difference.
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There are evidently no limits to the tedious, cheap and appalling abuse of the banking crisis by some individuals on this blog to further their shallow unionist agenda.
Make no mistake – the tidal wave is about to break, and tens of thousands of jobs are under immediate threat, along with a further critical slippage of control over Scotland’s long-standing banking and financial sector - with grave implications for our economy.
Of course, no national government could have exercised complete control over this crisis - but the fact that we need our politicians to do everything possible to protect our economic interests is, if anything, a glaring illustration of the requirement for an independent Scottish Government with full fiscal and national powers - not an argument against!
Far from reflecting the spirit of united concern we saw in our Parliament today, the oppotunist "unionist" posters here can barely contain their glee at the plight of our hastily-amalgamated banks and their employees.
#28 Pat
You and your ilk might consider showing some concern for the welfare of Scottish interests - such as you purport to be serving in your attempts to sustain the London-centric "union" - as opposed to using global market fallout and the resulting threat to Scottish jobs to take cheap and irrelevant pot-shots against the growing case for independence.
It appears to be your personal hallmark, in fact, to throw up baseless rhetoric in direct contradiction to the prevailing tide of events - your persistent misrepresentations against the National Conversation, Scottish Government policy and competence – contrasted with the howling incompetence of the opposition - all being outstanding examples.
Your evident disregard for the imperatives of a successful Scottish economy in favour of one whose subsistence is wholly dependent on decisions made elsewhere is hardly surprising - but nonetheless contemptible for that.
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Some of the comments on this thread remind me of Mugabe ranting about the reason Zimbabwe is in such a mess is because of a British conspiracy.
Zimabwe have been independent for 20 years. I hope some of the posts on this site are not a symptom of what is to come, a continual whining instead of trying to sort it out.
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17. At 2:35pm on 18 Sep 2008, Thomas_Porter wrote:
#13.
Darkerandbluer.
Not all Nationalists are not the problem here. Some Unionists have taken this opportunity as some type of victory for the Union. They see the situation as England bailing out Scotland, hence why the Union should continue as some sort of protection. Is this behaviour not disgusting? How can some Unionists claim victory when even the Scottish Parliament was seen cooperating with one another despite their differences? This is not an England vs Scotland matter, this is not a Scottish Gov vs London Gov matter, this is not even a Unionist vs Nationalist issue.
Well said.
This would have happened regardless.
But why does it take a crisis for our MSPs to work together? Lately all we have seen is one side trying a character assassination of the other, with the situation reversed a couple of week later.
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Two Jags strikes again !
''Former deputy Labour leader John Prescott has said the party should get behind Gordon Brown''
I was wondering if this is the same John Prescott who backed Tracy Temple ?
Wansanshoo.
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#36 northhighlander
It's interesting that you have self-nominated yourself as one of the "blinkered" people I referred to, but if I have learned anything through taking part in this blog, it is the utter pointlessness of proving anything to utterly closed-minded, prejudiced, and in some cases openly-bigoted, anti-Scottish blowhards.
I'm not going to waste my time trying to convince you of what common sense should already be telling you: that in times of trouble the last thing you need is to be at the mercy of people who feel no particular need to act in your best interests.
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#36 northhighlander
If we were independent this government could of had the "SHORT" trading outlawed for what it is a charlatans way of making a fast buck for themselves with no conscience of who gets hurt on the way, possibly 40,000 jobs at stake.
I wonder who GB is having dinner with tonight!
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cynicalhylander: "I wonder who GB is having dinner with tonight!"
Probably another Scot - presumably a high ranking UK Minister - most of them are, you know.
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Tut, tut, tut, England's fault yet again. Wake up and smell the coffee, for goodness sake.
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Maxanim
It really has been a productive day at Holyrood today, and i was thinking of you while sat at my desk!
It is a pleasure to see all working together, not only for individual purpose, party or either t of the nations that make up the UK. It has been a day when all thoughts have been to ensure that the UK Financial sector survives! Indeed the worlds Central Banks have been working together to try and fix the illness that has infected our systems by pure capitalist greed with no thoughts for society as a whole! I am no communist and do believe in a some what free market economy! I do have some issues with futures trading, hedging and short selling as these can all artificial distort the markets!
Is it not better that GB pulls together parties so that we do not lose a bank, does anyone really feel it would have been better to see HBOS go to the wall? The hidden faces behind the banks will not have lost much from this, it's those at the bottom that are often dealt the evil blow!
Some level of restructering in now inevitable, i hope this is kept to a minimum!
x
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Since the SNP's post-independence plan is to turn Scotland into a low-tax corporate bordello, it's difficult to see what protection they could offer without reneging on their 'open for business' principles. Even in recent days on this blog, there have been a few nats babbling about small, flexible nations with low corporate taxes. In the current economic climate, that's a recipe for mayhem.
If the nats have their wits about them, they'll come up with a new economic plan, probably focused on staying in the EU at all costs, dumping the nonsense about opting out of the CFP.
At least it forced Alex Salmond to cancel his grovelling expedition to the United States. Let's hope he follows up this by scrapping Homecoming 2009. The objectives of this fiasco, 'building the brand', is the same sort of New Labour/HBOS flim-flam which has got us into this mess.
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Jim_Thompson:
Hello there Jim,
I see you are already making a fool of yourself. Allow me to correct you on your comments.
"Probably another Scot - presumably a high ranking UK Minister - most of them are, you know."
You are wrong. There are roughly 23 ministers and there are only three Scots in cabinet. Gordon Brown (prime minister), Des Browne (defence) and Douglas Alexander (international development). Others may bring up Alistar Darlin but Darlin was born and brought up in London so really is not Scottish. He is simply an Englishman holding a Scottish seat.
So, out of 23 there are only 3 Scots holding cabinet roles. Hardly 'most of them' is it?
Reluctant-Expat:
I'm not doing much for medical reasons.
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#36 northhighlander
First of all, I do not accept the untrue assumption that Scottish Nationalists believe an independent Scotland would be some sort of "financial utopia immune to economic realities".
I believe the opposite: Scotland would face economic realities and would prosper greatly as a result of being free to take full advantage of its abundant economic resources and to act decisively in its own best interests (please spare me the tired old oil argument. I am not talking about oil!)
Here are three steps that could be taken to protect a Scottish bank facing a similar threat to the one suffered by HBOS:
1. An early warning system should be in place to force Scottish banks disclose their debts to a Scottish Financial Services Authority. The Scottish government would then be in a position to take timely action to protect vulnerable banks from attacks by unscrupulous short-sellers.
2. During times of extreme economic turbulence short-selling the shares of a Scottish bank or banks could be temporarily suspended.
3. Scottish Government support for companies facing such speculative threats should be made available to those companies who prioritise the welfare of Scottish employees.
That more than adequately answers your question. Now let's see you answer MY question: why did Labour fail to take such steps in HBOS's case? They are now promising to act despite claiming to have known of HBOS's problem for some time. No rhetoric, just a clear answer that explains why if they could have acted to protect HBOS they failed to do so?
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#40 wansanshoo?
witwan?
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#45
I dont believe anyone has suggested that HBOS should have went to the wall.
I'm glad that you pay reference to the failures of capitalism.
I'm sure everyone is with those how may lose theirs jobs.
At this time, its the free market thatcher economy that will continue this mindless greed.
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#46.
Anaxim.
"Even in recent days on this blog, there have been a few nats babbling about small, flexible nations with low corporate taxes. In the current economic climate, that's a recipe for mayhem."
It's not. Quite a number of European countries have lowered corperate taxes in recent years, some would say that Britain has became uncompetative because companies and businesses see these countries as more profitable. Have you not heard of companies leaving London for elsewhere in recent years? Please use Google and search for anything that reffers to companies leaving London. You will then see that lower corperate taxes is not all bad when it brings you employment.
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Surely the question is not about whether HBOS is Scottish, but why the Westminster govt (prop. G Brown) allowed all the banks within its jurisdiction to behave in such an unsafe manner for years. It was apparent to anybody with half a brain that house prices were an economic bubble where the rises far outstripped any increase in intrinsic value. Now those banks have been caught out.
So 2 questions arise:
1. Why did the banks directors not recognise the fact?
2. Why didn't the UK Treasury stop this?
The answers must be that,
1. they had their snouts far too deeply buried in the trough
2. It was easy to allow the UK to prosper in the short term, thus allowing minor issues like illegal wars to be overlooked come election time. House prices and PFI/PPP don't pay now, but pay much more later. Brown is a financial genius? Laughable if it weren't so tragic
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Re 48, hi hullabaloo, how are you. Re your points 1 and 2, good idea, little late as point 2 already announced by G.B.
Re point 3 you would not be able to do that under the E.U., Governments cannot give support to their own national companies over that of other Nation's from the E.U - called freedom of trade.
Mind you, easy to overcome Scotland could always pull out of Europe. If you want you can have that as your own idea, call it point 4 if you wish, I won't tell any one
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To all those doubters can they give a credible answer as to why Westminster had to support Northern Rock with taxpayers money, allegedly as it would be bad for the british economy, yet would not step in to help HBOS which was 6 times the size of Northern Rock. Would it be anything to to with playing party politics by any chance.
It is quite strange how the FSA has suddenly stopped "SHORT" selling from midnight tonight.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7624012.stm
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Re Bighullaballoo.
at uk level ( where we are at this moment )
you should not be able to sell shares unless you have owned them for say 10 working days.
when i say owned them, i mean that the regulatory authorities or stock market have been informed that the shares have been transfered.
that would help in the case of the short sellers.
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Re my post meant to say FSA not G.B.
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#51 Thomas Porter
Quote, your #51:
"Have you not heard of companies leaving London for elsewhere in recent years?"
Unquote
To paraphrase you, have you not heard of companies leaving Scotland for elsewhere in recent years?
It's called the global economy. Get used to the idea, 'cos it ain't going away.
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#53 jordanbasset
"Re your points 1 and 2, good idea, little late as point 2 already announced by G.B."
I was asked what could be done to protect a Scottish bank. I've told you. It's a shame - though typical - that you don't also see it as "too late" that Gordon Brown could not have taken these simple steps before the collapse of HBOS. If he had done, then I might be able to accept people trying to score cheap political points off it.
As it stands, taking the action Brown has taken after the "horse has bolted" adds even more weight to the view that Scotland needs to be free to take swift and decisive action to protect its interests.
The bottom line is the case for Scottish independence is strengthened. I note Darling has a lot of people in his constituency whose future employment is now in doubt because of the HBOS takeover. I'm sure those people will show what they think of Darling's handling of the affair at the next general election.
I wouldn't like to be in his shoes.
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# 51 - Thomas Porter
If we must suffer your lectures on corperate (sic) taxes, it would add considerable weight to your viewpoint if you could actually spell the word. Especially since you cut/pasted it into your preceding paragraph!
Perhaps a more time reading books, rather than on your pc? Could even help you find a job!
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#53 jordanbassett
"Governments cannot give support to their own national companies over that of other Nation's from the E.U - called freedom of trade."
I worked in a Scottish government department where public money was regularly distributed to Scottish companies to support them in all sorts of situations, so I cannot see how this can possibly be true. I don't suppose there's any point in asking for proof of it, because when you can't provide any the whole discussion just descends into another slanging match.
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# 24
How lucky you were! Today's army in the field work in excess of 60 hours a week and that doesn't include the 'on call' hours when they have to get up and out within minutes.
Please do not deride any military personnel. It's attitudes like yours that make the best leave HM Forces because they no longer wish to protect you and your ilk.
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Re post 59, hullabaloo my last post as I am away for two weeks early tomorrow. You seem to be labouring under the impression I am a support of G.B., I am not (mainly due to the second Iraq war) and would best desrcibe myself as between parties at the moment. So I am not out to score political points, cheap or othewise. More concerned to point out the insane ramblings of conspiracy theories.
Yes it would have been better to do it before HBOS, it would have ben even better before Northern Rock, but it is better late tha never.
Incidentally can't remeber hearing Alex Salmond calling for such measures before these unfortunate recent events.
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Couple of points that I don't think have been raised elsewhere....
1) I don't think its safe to assume that traders at HBOS have never undertaken short positions and profited from them. (Goose and Gander?)
2) It is almost impossible to prevent intra-day shorting by regulation in an electronic market place.
3) HBOS is nothing compared to what would have happened if AIG had been allowed to collapse. Banks have no idea of their direct and indirect exposure to guarantors believe me.
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Re 63, sent before I finsished, darn key board - meant to say can you imagine an English company saying it would prioritise the welfare of English employees - get real. This policy is more akin to the BNP than the SNP - shame on you hullabaloo
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And a couple of other things..
has anybody looked at HBOS chart recently? Problems didn't start recently. It looks vertical downward since Jan 2007 as does the banking sector.
I guess the guys in Basel best get back to the drawing board. As someone on TV said last night all BIS II succeeded in doing was to make the banks think of new ways of how they could leverage their capital outwith regulatory controls.
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Hi hullabaloo, keyboard playing up, one more try. (probably easier to read this post before post 64) Firstly no company can prioritise the welfare interests of one nationality, Scottish or otherwise. If they did they would quickly find themselves in front of an employment tribunal and a large payout.
Secondly Governments can support business', they cannot support business on race or nationality grounds. It would be a barrier to free trade and contrary to E.U. law.
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#62 jordanbasset
The impression you are a supporter of G.B. might have had just a little to do with your statement in #53: "point 2 already announced by G.B" as if he was some sort of hero for doing it. You corrected the "G.B." in your #56 but not before I'd already posted #58 unfortunately labouring under an impression you created yourself in #53.
Alex Salmond isn't in a position to know the state of banks' balance sheets as things stand, which is why I suggested my point number 1 as a measure for an independent Scotland. To be perfectly honest I think it's reaching the totally ridiculous stages now to be criticising Salmond for not being able to predict events in the financial markets but I suppose that's the standard of debate we're stuck with.
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#66 jordanbasset
What reason do we have for believing you are correct about this apart from the fact you're saying it? And before you all jump in to whine "he's correct!" I'm talking about real evidence not just hearsay.
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#66 jordanbassett
"no company can prioritise the welfare interests of one nationality, Scottish or otherwise."
If this is true I imagine Lloyds TSB will be getting a large number of employment tribunal claims on their doormat in the very near future.
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Hi Hullabaloo, Under the Race Relations Act, 1976, it is unlawful to discriminate against anyone on grounds of race, colour, nationality (including citizenship), or ethnic or national origin - google it. So no company can prioritise the welfare of Scottish employees, pretty basic really -
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#66 jordanbassett
Why does the Scottish government regularly inject hundreds of thousands of pounds of public finance into Scottish companies if it is not precisely for the reason that they are Scottish?
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#68
Some time ago my employer, a local authority, wanted to invest £1.5 million (not a huge amount of money by business standards) in IT equipment (PC's and the like) for local schools. They gave the contract to a local PC provider as the council had a longstanding policy of supporting local industry but were promptly informed by their legal people that such a move was illegal. The order had to go out to tender.
Government and public bodies cannot direct support to where they want. jordanbassett is correct. EU rules forbid it.
The Ferguson Shipyard in Port Glasgow escapade over the Fisheries Protection vessel a couple of years ago was a more high profile example of this too. As was the nonsensical CalMac Ferries tendering exercise.
There is lots of "real evidence not just hearsay".
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Planejock:
The point of your comment was? I was clearly pointing out that Britain is currently loosing out to countries who have lowered corporate tax. You on the otherhand have pointed out nothing new.
Regmitchell:
Another pointless comment I see. Have you actually got anything to say about the recent take over of HBOS?
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#66 jordanbassett
Let me guess: when a Scottish company with branches in England makes some staff in their English office redundant that is race discrimination (not allowed under E.U. rules).
But when an English company with branches in Scotland makes some staff in their Scottish office redundant that is just the "harsh reality of business."
No wonder most Scots voted SNP at the last election.
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#70 jordanbassett
I googled it. The Race Relations Act, 1976 is not E.U. law. It's British law. How does this apply to Scotland if Scotland is not part of the UK?
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I'm still trying to figure out both sides of an argument here:
Nationalists saya that this is a case for having an independent Scotland.
Unionists say this is a case for a united kingdom.
I think you are both wrong. Banks operate in a global market. And the comments that "short selling (?)" would not happen is nonsense. Why did the SNP not raise this in their manifesto last year? Why did Westminster not outlaw it?
If Scotland were independent, would it be possible for a run to take place on a bank anyway? And would Scotland have sufficient funds to prevent this? Or would the oil money be used?
Jobs are going to be lost here, and business may be reduced. It would be better to stop squabbling about independence - for and against - until the dust settles and we can see what the best option may be.
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#71
Short selling has been on going for some time now! it not the sole reason for the merger......
Look I happen to like your quote "Industrial tribunal"
I hope they do have grounds to challenge any redundancies on the grounds of T.U.P.E
I dont think our employment laws are strong enough and need to be enhanced immediately.
would you support the HBOS staff with secondary picketing (if legal)
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# 73: Thomas
I was just pointing out that such company migrations are by no means only from London, which for some reason was the sole city that you cited. It would've been truer to say these movements are from Western (and increasingly Eastern) Europe as a whole, and plus of course from the USA.
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Hulabaloo, the legislation banning discrimination on grounds of race or ethnicity is European wide and is covered by the E.U. directive Council Directive 2000/43/EC of 29 June 2000.
Now I am worried, do you really want the SNP to scrap anti discrimination laws - are you sure you are not mixed up and you are really a member of the BNP
Going to bed now have an early flight - see you in two weeks -
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I'm getting annoyed by all these assurances for Jobs in Scotland that Darling et all are trying to secure. What abotu all the assurances for jobs in England. I work for HBOS north of the border till Jan this year and recently due to other commitments transfered to a post down south.
Now after a government who has, it seems, done a back room deal with Lloyds, handing our keys over to them without us having much of a say we all have job issues.
Does Mr Brown, as the Union Accord seem to suggest not give two hoots about jobs in the Financial sector?
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#76 neil
I dont think the snp have put forward a strong economic case for I ndependence.
I do accept the point you make about this situation.
HBOS was in the private sector, it may have even chosen to merge with or with out the current down-turn (speculation Eh...)
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72. At 10:43pm on 18 Sep 2008, jam804.
you are correct in stating that contracts have to go out to terder, but as it has nothing to do with the previous posts, why bring it up.
governments are not allowed under EEC laws to subsidise contracts like in shipbuilding and steelmaking ect.
governments are allowed to give grants to companies as long as it meets a certain criteria. like if you win a certain shipbuilding contract and they require a certain peice of equipment ,then they may qualify for a grant towards it.
the EEC also give grants, to say, like to the scottish fishing industry, but only to upgrade the boat engines so that they are more fuel efficient not to build brand new boats.
with regards my first point, you are acting in the same way as jordanbasset, you go of on a tangent to try and score points and possibly argue for arguments sake. which is the usual way of the unionist when asked to give proof of what they are saying.
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#45 SKaufman
It was certainly refreshing to see such unity of purpose and mutual respect. One hopes that the parties can build on this.
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#78.
Ah right sorry. I was using London as an example because its more high profile then other parts of the country. But in general, Britain as a whole is not competative then some European neighbours and we are loosing business.
#76.
Hello Neil,
Please do not label 'Nationalists' all together. I am a Nationalist but I do not see this 'event' as a case for Independence nor do I see this as an example why the Union is important. HBOS was a victim of speculators. It has and could happen to many more banks around the world. IF Scotland was Independent then perhaps we could have forced our banks to behave better, I dont know, but who actually can tell how an Independent Scotland would cope during these economic times? No one can tell and it is not worth guessing. IF Scotland was Independent you can bet the world as you know it would be different, without Britain playing world powers, how Scotland would be now if we were Independent could be anything.
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if an employer makes you redundent and says to you that he is making you redundent
because you are scottish and he wants to keep his english worker, then that is discrimination.
the same applies if you reverse the roles and you are english, scottish, irish welsh or a woman ect..
if he just says that he is making you redundant, then you would have trouble proving that you were discriminated against.
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test
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Appoligies should go to the employees who will lose their jobs. But to our elected representatives, have they never heard of the phrase "those who live by the sword, die by the sword"
Or to translate, if you pursue laziz faire ecconomic policies, dont complain if the turn round and bite you.
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# 84: Thomas.
I accept your apology. But you don't make it easy for readers, one minute you're comparing different countries, but then you go off at a tangent, inconsistently specifying one CITY. That's why you weren't exactly clear in the point you were attempting to make.
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big hullabaloo
Your response is entirely typical. A first reposonse based on rhetoric, personal atack and self proclamation.
A second reply that misses some basic points.
To implement your solution would require an Independant Scotland to have regulatory control over the London Stock Exchange. Don't understand how that could happen. Or are HBOS type institutions going to want to be part of a new Scottish exchange?
It also assumes that HBOS wold be regulated under a Scottish FSA, which it would appear from your response would be a more strict regime than in England, so why would a BRITISH company want to be under a more strict set of rules?
If they had a choice I would reckon they would choose the lighter touch and move HQ to London.
Also why should the scottish taxpayer help a company that has many employees in England? or does Hullabalooism have a magic formula that only supports the Scottish part of the company?
Race relation act doesn't apply to an Independant Scotland? So all UK law will immediately become null and void on the date of Independance?
What Planet are you living on. this is the most half baked rubbish I have read in a long time.
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Since everyone else is wading in on this government support for Scottish companies argument.
It isn't as simple as bighullabaloo makes out.
Yes, the scootish Government gives lots of support to companies in Scotland, but not to solely Scottish companies.
They recently gave a £1.3m regional selective grant to IBM in Greenock. (that well known Scottish enterprise)
All governments give money to companies but none in the EU can favour their own "home grown" businesses.
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Scootish?
Obviously I meant Scottish.
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I have one question for all those nationalists placing the blame for what is, even in these extremely unusual global financial times, normal business, (ie the take-over of a troubled company by a better placed one), on the City of London: In the independent Scotland that you are always calling for, would Scotland create its own bourse to trade shares, de-listing "Scottish" companies from the LSE?
This is a serious question that I have never seen addressed by anyone in the independence debate, even Mr Salmond. The answer that I get will give me a huge clue as to whether those always shouting the loudest about "freedom", English dominance and Scotland's place in the world are rooted in reality or some emotion driven dream-world.
Thankyou.
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Short dealing may be part of the problem here but the main problem is the dodgy lending by Bank of Scotland and the other sub-prime arms of HBOS and the fact they it is run by a group of salesmen who's only aim is to earn huge bonuses regardless of the cost to others.
There has been no professionalism in HBOS for some years and enthusiasm over realism has reigned.
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1/ Well then, presumably, as this "British" super-bank gears up to take on the world,
As Scotland is 10% of the UK, then Scotland will suffer a proprtional 10% of the Job Losses that this "exciting new venture" will bring ?
Thought Not.
2/ If "short selling" is such a BAD thing, why has it only been "suspended" for four months by the UK FSA and not completely outlawed as in, for example, Russia ? Would an Independent Scottish FSA ban the practice completely ? Would it matter ?
3/ Anybody got any thoughts following the comments from an "independent financial expert" on GMS yesterday that "this will lead to Edinburgh being placed on a par in the Financial Services Sector with Leeds" ?
4/ Independence wouldn't have stopped this but it might have put the BoS back to Chartered Status. That may or may not have had any effect, but we wouldn't be "losing our national bank".
Have a good weekend everyone. I'll be spending it closing my accounts and running to, erm, what have we left in Scotland these days....Ah, A building society not too far away from Broon's Constituency, he said, trying not to do a brand placement.
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#84 Thomas
I should have been clearer. I meant the extremist views on BOTH sides of the argument.
There are those who are on the "unionist" side who firmly believe that Scotland would have disappeared under the latest attack on a financial institution.
Then those who are on the "nationalist" side who said that it would never happen.
But you are correct when you said that no one truly knows what would happen in an independent Scotland.
Alex Salmond is being surprisingly careful by not pushing the independent argument in this situation, since he knows he would be blown out of the water.
But why has it taken this for the Westminster Government to ban short selling?
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Thomas_Porter wrote:
"Others may bring up Alistar Darlin but Darlin was born and brought up in London so really is not Scottish. He is simply an Englishman"
So was Scotland's most famous football supporter, Rod Stewart. Will you tell him to take off the tartan and support the England team or should I?
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"It's not. Quite a number of European countries have lowered corperate taxes in recent years, some would say that Britain has became uncompetative because companies and businesses see these countries as more profitable. Have you not heard of companies leaving London for elsewhere in recent years? Please use Google and search for anything that reffers to companies leaving London. You will then see that lower corperate taxes is not all bad when it brings you employment."
Two of these countries are Ireland and Iceland, both of which have taken a worse hit from the global recession than the UK. Not a surprise when your gameplan is focused, above all, on attracting footloose multinational capital.
Inward investment has its place, but Scotland has been blighted for years with an embarrassing fetish for it.
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#92 Good point after all, the Allied Irish Bank, Anglo Irish bank and Bank of Ireland all trade on the LSE.
That would suggest independent or not, HBOS would still have been slaughtered in the London Markets as they would still be listed.
Obviously Scotland would have its own stock exchange as the Republic of Ireland does - which incidently has decided to follow the UK and suspend short selling, it seems they are only acting now too ( I suppose that's GB's fault too) - but would Scottish company's still not remain listed on the London Stock Exchange and be subject to the highs and lows of the Former UK all the same?
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Re Big hullabaloo
Comment on your first response, what I expected and in the normal nat manner of debate.
Re the issue, HBOS there is a fundamental mistake in the debate. HBOS is listed on the LONDON stock exchange and any scottish government would have no power to suspend short selling or anything else on the London market. Unless of course HBOS were to move to a new Scottish exchange?
Any additional regulation of the financial market in Scotland over England, (your point re the scottish FSA) is bound to at least pose the question to such organisations, do we want to have an HQ in Scotland?
Also if they remained listed on the London exchange this would mean two sets of regulation, not a receipe for sucess or an attractive option to business.
Also government support for HBOS? Why would the Scottish tax payer wish to support a UK wide company with many English employees? How would that work in practice?
In truth you miss the key point, when bank of Scotland merged with the Halifax they chose to become a fully UK wide organisation. Not a singly Scottish one.
The point re the race relations act is a classic point. Are you saying on the date of Independance all UK law since the Union would become null and void? Or just some on a list somewhere? Who would decide?
This appears to be a particularly poorly thought out comment.
Certainly not a convincing well thought out argument for independance
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Thomas Porter - #47.
Don't wish to get off Brian's subject, but your nitpicking has caused you to open (another!) can of worms, see MalcomW2's 97.
You've told us Mr Darling is not a Scot. Did you ask HIM?
Do you have to be actually born in Scotland to be a Scot? Trust not, or you'll be upsetting many of us born overseas, whilst our dads were serving with HM forces in Hong Kong or Cyprus, etc!
Or if naturalization apllies for those not born in Scotland, what's the residency timescale? Five years? Ten?
But then, after becoming Scots by naturalization, if one then goes abroad (for instance, Wales!) to work etc, would one's Scottishness then just lapse after a certain number of years? Perhaps one could briefly return, just to return to "renew" their Scots nationality? And have you dared tell Sean Connery about all this?
Was Bonnie Prince Charlie (born in Rome) really Scottish? Was Mary really Queen of Scots?
Oh Thomas, you've done it again. The nation awaits your ruling with baited breath. You started it - I think we deserve an answer!
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re #98 - company's???
It should of course read "but would Scottish companies still not remain listed on the London Stock Exchange and be subject to the highs and lows of the Former UK economy all the same?
My typing is becoming apalling.
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the sfa suspending the short selling is not good enough, it has to ban this practise permanently or introduce severe restrictions permanently.
its not only about HBOS or other banks its about all other stock exchange companies who can be brought to their knees at the whim of these spivs.
the sfa has a duty to protect companies, be it scottish or english companies or others.
the fact that british residents can have their life savings wiped out or severely deminished by the actions of these traders is what the government should be taking action on.
the traders should not be allowed to sell shares they do not own.
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To #65, yes I have been watching the HBOS chart... http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/fds/hi/business/market_data/shares/3/23174/one_month.stm
And it is clear that the shares were fluctuating, but not extreme. It was only when Gordon Brown met the top brass of Loyds TSB on the 12th or 13th at a party and agreed to pave the way for the takeover that the (likely Loyds) speculators were given the go ahead to collapse HBOS shares.
It is critical you consider and understand the sequence of events which led up to this situation, specifically cause and effect. The graph clearly shows the results of this.
Either Brown was absolutely negligent and stupid or he knew what he was doing. Despite not liking Brown, I cannot see how the Ex-Chancellor could be simply negligent and stupid and therefore, I cannot fail to come to the conclusion that political motives were the key to all this.
As I have said before, the fallout has yet to land surrounding Brown's involvement in this tragedy.
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#99 northhighlander
I stand by every word of my original post (#41) because I got it spot on. My original instinct, that if I treated your answer seriously I would just be dismissed in a blinkered fashion and treated to the usual put-downs, proved correct.
Predictably, you are only interested in rubbishing others. A complete waste of my time. I decided to give it one last go just to see if you could finally put your blinkered petty-political views to one side and admit there are indeed simple answers to your question that would have made an enormous difference in the HBOS case:
1. Compulsory monitoring of bank debt.
2. Make short selling more difficult in stable markets (see vote_nat's excellent #55).
3. Ban short selling temporarily in unstable markets.
This does not amount to a rejection of "free market capitalism". It's just sensible measures to stop people making unethical profits times by destroying companies and jobs. You asked what a Scottish government could have done to have prevented an HBOS situation. You got it.
My answer wasn't an "argument for independence". You didn't ask for such an argument. You asked for simple steps that could protect Scottish banks in similar circumstances to HBOS in an independent Scotland. You got exactly that.
It has not escaped anyone's notice that although I answered your question in some detail as requested, you totally failed to answer mine. Why is Labour only now taking such steps when it is already too late to save HBOS? The reason you have not answered is clear: you find it impossible to defend the indefensible.
As I wrote in #41 above, what exactly is the point of answering someone who is so firmly entrenched in their own blinkered, unchallengeable view of reality? It is not for you to judge the quality of my arguments, but if you have an answer to my question then let's hear it without the insulting put-downs.
Unlike your ill-educated Unionist colleagues with their wrongly-spelled "baited" breath, I'm not holding my breath. That was the last time I will answer anything from blinkered people like you because you have forfeited the right to have your request for an answer taken seriously.
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#90 Blackivar
"Yes, the scootish Government gives lots of support to companies in Scotland, but not to solely Scottish companies."
Back to the usual straetgy of arguing against something I didn't say. I wrote the Scottish government injects cash into Scottish companies. I didn't say that they injected cash SOLELY into Scottish companies. Sick to death of having my words twisted to facilitate petty political point scoring. I won't bother to ask where I wrote SOLELY Scottish companies because I already know you can't tell me, and then I will be treated to dog's abuse to cover your embarassment. People can read exactly what I wrote for themselves.
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#99 Incorrect, many companies are listed on several stock exchanges. For example, BP is traded in both the LSE and the NYSE. There is no difficulty there.
Most people get confused as they think FTSE = LSE and DOW = NYSE, when infact the terms are completely unrelated. One can be a Scottish company, trade on a theoretical SSE (scottish stock exchange), trade on the LSE and the NYSE but be listed on the FTSE.
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#99 northighlander
Just read your answer again and can't believe how you tried to twist every single thing I said to try to male it sound as if what i ws suggesting should have applied to HBOS (not an exclusively Scottish bank. I do know that. I'm not as stupid as you seem to think)
You originally asked me about steps that could be taken to prevent an HBOS-type situation in an independent Scotland.
I suggested nothing about "Scottish taxpayers supporting UK-wide companies like HBOS."
It really is a total waste of time trying to respond to you. You just ignore what you asked then twist everything I did say as if it was mean to apply to the HBOS situation. An utter waste of time answering you and an embarrassment for you to see just how blinkered by hatred some people can be.
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#105 You are a very aggressive person - I'm sure it's not good for your blood pressure.
I suppose this is unfamiliar?
"Why does the Scottish government regularly inject hundreds of thousands of pounds of public finance into Scottish companies if it is not precisely for the reason that they are Scottish?
In any case what does it matter?
Your indignant soap box is never far no matter what anyone types.
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hi brian
it would be helpful if your moderators explained why certain posts are not allowed - re my post 102
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Test..........
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bighullabaloo
I might also add that I did not say you said "that they injected cash SOLELY into Scottish companies".
Indeed, to follow your tack, please point out where I did?
I was merely pointing out if was nothing to do with them being Scottish.
Your problem, might I suggest, is that you infer more from people's post than is actually there.
Beleive it or not, we are not trying to score points against you, as much as seem it may flatter your ego to think that.
P.S. this is not intended as abuse just in case you infer it as such.
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#108 Blackvicar
You can save the insults. It's only ashor while (#105) since I predicted they would appear to cover your embarrassment at not being able to prove I did NOT write: "SOLELY Scottish companies." Now you have offered up a quote from my previous post that PROVES I wrote no such thing.
The aggression lies in people like you who rush to misquote, twist and condemn others for saying things that you later cannot prove they did say.
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I am confused by your argument
You stated "Why does the Scottish government regularly inject hundreds of thousands of pounds of public finance into Scottish companies if it is not precisely for the reason that they are Scottish?"
I merely pointed out that they inject cash into all businesses therefore the idea that it was based on Scottishness was erroneous.
How you have taken this into some attack on you is quite amazing.
And again you cry insults, either my Debretts is woefully inaccurate or you've taken being thin skinned to new levels.
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#111 Blackvicar
In your #90 you admit "wading in" to the argument. This is precisely the sort of rash, unthinking, aggressive style you accuse me of.
You stated: "It isn't as simple as bighullabaloo makes out." This refers to me directly, using my username. It has nothing to do with flattering my ego, as you seem to think.
You wrote: "Yes, the scootish Government gives lots of support to companies in Scotland, but not to solely Scottish companies."
This admits that my original point was correct, but then adds the additional point that it is not solely Scottish companies.
This creates the totally false impression that I had written something that claimed ghe Scottish government invested SOLELY Scottish companies, when I did not.
So you are making a point of argument against something I didn't say, even as you admit that what I did say is correct.
Obviously you don't like the fact that I've highlighted yet another example of tryign to put words into my mouth just so you can them stroke your own ego by arguing against your own fictitious argument.
I have the right to point that out even if you don't like it.
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#113 Blackivar
"And again you cry insults, either my Debretts is woefully inaccurate or you've taken being thin skinned to new levels."
Instead of admitting your error, you immediately started called me "aggressive."
#108 "You are a very aggressive person."
You couldn't disprove what I said so you immediately started labelling me with your silly put down of being "aggressive." I predicted you would only a couple of posts earlier (#105).
That's not thin-skinned. It's just pointing out that you are substituting personal attack for rational argument.
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bighullabaloo
I have yet to put words in your mouth, you seem to find plenty for yourself.
What you did is extrapolate the comment "It's not as simple as" into an attack when no real attack was delivered - I simply expanded.
Your reaction has been almost akin to shakespeare's Cassius.
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100. At 09:58am on 19 Sep 2008, Planejock.
the definition of a scottish company to receive grants ect. from the scottish parliament , is one that is located in scotland.
it does not matter if they are english, scottish or other as long as they are located in scotland.
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#116 Blackivar
You are just trying to muddy the waters now.
The "attack" was the untrue accusation that I was being "aggressive". The attack was not mentioning me by name.You are now trying to make it sound as if I took mentioning my name as an attack when I didn't. You have tried to say it's only my big ego that makes me answer your posts - but you mentioned me in your posts. If you don't want me to answer then don't mention me by name.
It really is as simple as that!
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#117 vote-nat
Good luck trying to convince this lot with logic, facts, proof, evidence and common sense.
I've found all of them to have no effect whatsover on their ability to ignore reality entirely. They just resort instead to calling you "aggressive" an other abusive insults.
A total and utter waste of time.
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#103
Nail on the head there fella. The most disturbing thing about this is GB's manipulation of the events. This needs to be investigated.
It was GB that facilitated the plummet in the share value which enabled LTSB to make an aggressive takeover bid. That is quite obvious.
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100. At 09:58am on 19 Sep 2008, Planejock.
sorry planejock, my 117 should have been in reference to 113. At 11:21am on 19 Sep 2008, Blackivar.
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Re bighullabaloo #48.
Your point 1......can't see this working. Northern Rock did more or less this when they went to the BoE for an emergency loan. Look what happened. A run on the bank caused not only by nevous shareholders, but customers as well.
In financial circles, reputation is everything. A "vulnerable" bank is a dead bank, and no amount of Government intervention can protect in this circumstance.
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#120 dmacaulay
You are quite correct. Darling admitted they had known about the HBOS situation for some time before the crisis came to a head.
They were aware of it. They could have suspended short selling weeks ago. Thousands of Scottish jobs would not now be in the balance.
The public will see GB's grubby fingerprints all over this: an attempt to placate "disquiet in England" as the SNP continues to create a better quality of life north of the border.
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#122 bingowings87
"Your point 1......can't see this working."
Well, perhaps you can then explain why Gordon Brown is suggesting it then?
"Mr Brown has been calling for the establishment of an international early warning system to ensure future credit crunches are identified and dealt with before the effects spread."
(BBC website, "Brown pledge to 'clean up' City ", September 19, 2008)
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And the young nats are still scrambling around, humiliating themselves by seriously claiming this was all part of an anti-nationalist conspiracy.
120. You win the prize for the maddest post. Gordon Brown engineered HBOS's share price, did he? How did he do that then?
123. I hope you saying this to everyone you meet, bigfussaboutnothing. You should.
What do the nats think about the rumours that HSBC, having pulled out of a multi-billion takeover of a Korean bank, are now sniffing around RBS?
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#122 bingowings87
"Banks in trouble will be forced to disclose their debts to the Financial Services Authority, the Bank of England and the Treasury under proposed new legislation."
This idea is from Brown's government. He suggested it as Chancellor. If it's not going to work then why is he wasting our time and taxpayers' money pushing for it, not to mention ignoring the ongoing risk to British business?
If it is going to work then why wasn't it already in place before the HBOS situation arose? We've known for almost a year now that there was a "perfect storm" coming in the world economy.
Another case of Unionists trying to have it both ways.
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hi bighullabaloo.
the problem seems to be that some posters when they have been proved wrong or pulled up as to their posts, is that they then introduce other subjects into their postings to detract from their original posts and also introduce snide comments.
its possible that they are trying to look smart and play the old british colonial thinking of divide and rule.
reasoned debate if fine, but misquoting others is a waste of time.
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#125
"120. You win the prize for the maddest post. Gordon Brown engineered HBOS's share price, did he? How did he do that then?"
I just told you how he did it. Follow the timeline back and it's blatantly obvious that the pivot point was Browns meeting with the LTSB brass.
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128. Mmm, how come it's only you nationalist-types who are claiming this is a government conspiracy?
I don't hear HBOS saying this.
I don't even hear Salmond saying this.
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#125 Reluctant-Expat
"Gordon Brown engineered HBOS's share price, did he? How did he do that then?"
By failing to act to suspend short-selling in the shares of a bank he knew to be vulnerable to an attack by speculators who care nothing for the jobs of 17,000 Scottish bank workers. Those 17,000 bank workers will not see this as a trivial matter when it comes time to vote. They will like their ability to put food in their children's mouths being used as a poltical ploy to try to make Gordon Brown less hated in England.
Another nail in the Unionist coffin.
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#125 It is not Anti-Nationalist...
It is Anti-the Scottish peoples interests just as the Poll Tax was.
Please stop your paranoia regarding the SNP and see my post #103, do your own research and come back to me with some constructive comments.
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#127 vote_nat
Yes, I know that, and you know that and I'm sure most other people reading these exchanges can see it as well.
The Unionists' ability to ignore reality enables them to pretend to themselves that they are getting away with it.
It's a mindset we are all too familiar with. They don't like me because I find it all too easy to expose them as they are trying to do it.
Let them continue to deny reality. Sooner or later reality is going to jump up and bite them. Ouch!
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Correction to my #130
"They will not like their ability to put food in their children's mouths being used as a poltical ploy to try to make Gordon Brown less hated in England."
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Brian
The unity of resolve and purpose demonstrated in our Parliament yesterday, led by the First Minister, was impressive to behold.
Such a shame that it has taken such dire and suddenly precipitating circumstances to bring about such united determination - and all the more so that Holyrood is bereft of the full national powers and authority to exert the kind of leverage that may yet have safely anchored the new group's HQ in Edinburgh.
And while, of course, there are poorly informed views posted from many sides in this debate, it is hardly less shameful that, in the midst of the unfolding crisis, there are those whose desperate, overriding aim is to take repetitive and petty pot-shots against the pro-independence movement.
Such circumstances must, above all, bring home the need for full political powers of protection over our home-based economy and institutions - not less!
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# 125
"What do the nats think about the rumours that HSBC, having pulled out of a multi-billion takeover of a Korean bank, are now sniffing around RBS?"
I think it's another typical attempt by you to distort reality and spread false an malicious information in the hope that it will have a damaging effect on Scotland.
Here is the reality:
"Royal Bank of Scotland shares were up more than 50% at one point today."
BBC website (today) "Shares surge on US bail-out plan "
Good luck to HSBC in their takeover bid. They might find the shares a bit over-priced compared to yesterday.
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#124, I don't speak for Gordon Brown, nor anyone in govenment for that matter.
As for the article you quoted from, there is not enough detail to make a judgement on what is proposed. But - if it moves to protects jobs and peoples deposits - then I'm all for it.
Protecting the bank itself - a bank in trouble is a dead bank. Would you put your money into a financially stricken bank? In these circumstances, protecting jobs and life savings comes way ahead of protecting the bank, and in any case, no amount of legislation will revive a failed bank. I dont think HBOS's woes are just about short selling.
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#136 bingowings87
"if it moves to protects jobs and peoples deposits - then I'm all for it."
One minute you're saying "it won't work" (#122) but when I reveal it's Labour's idea suddenly it's "not enough detail to judge it but if it works I'm all for it".
I think we know all we need to know about your credibility.
LOL
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# 129, Reluctant-Expat wrote:
128. Mmm, how come it's only you nationalist-types who are claiming this is a government conspiracy?
...What a daft comment. For a start IT IS a government conspiracy. That is what governments do... they conspire with big business, do deals and hatch plans. That is what running a country entails. The difference lies whether you consider that the government are conspiring or dealing to benefit the people and in this case it is the rich in the SE of england that are gaining at the expense of those north of the border. If I am being described as a nationalist-type conspiracy theorist as a result, then so be it.
"I don't hear HBOS saying this."
...how could they, at the point where their shares were 88p each, it was too late to complain. They were had by that time by the short and curlys with the only escape route open to them involving being swallowed by Loyds. At this point, they belonged to Loyds and would and indeed could not have complained... the alternative was to go bust! Now they ARE Loyds and there will be no complaints... except from possible future reduntant staff.
"I don't even hear Salmond saying this."
... I would wait until the dust settles until espousing that comment. I am sure you will agree, the more pressing issue for Salmond and the Scottish Government at this time are the possible thousands of Scottish HBOS job losses.
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133. Of course. I see it now.
Letting Lloyds take over HBOS, at the cost of thousands of jobs around the entire UK, was to boost support for Gordon Brown in England.
This is absolutely, definitely and irrefutably not a symptom of any psychotic paranoia in any way.
Again, I urge all nats to spread this devastating conclusion around the nation! It will no doubt cause an earthquake. Or something just as worthy of yet more fantabulous superlatives.
It is astonishing that a group of usually-hysterical teenage Scottish nationalists have uncovered a plot so dastardly evil. Especially when no-one in HBOS, Holyrood, from the EU regulators or any of the other major banks has.
This is a story worthy of Enid Blyton, Carolyn Keene or even Hergé!
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#136 bingowings87
There is plenty of detail:
""Banks in trouble will be forced to disclose their debts to the Financial Services Authority, the Bank of England and the Treasury under proposed new legislation."
You are just trying to conveniently ignore my #126.
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#136 bingowings87
"I dont think HBOS's woes are just about short selling."
My #48 wasn't a list steps for saving HBOS.
They were in response to northhighlander's question about what an independent Scottish government could do to protect Scottish banks. He tried to ignore his own question by applying my points to the HBOS case.
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#125
Reluctant-Expat
Are you really describing bigideasontheloo as a 'young nat'? Surely not? A retired person who has done their bit for the Scottish economy through the years and who now with some time on their hands - and lots of it - is keen not to see Scotland wrecked by democracy?
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#142 salmondella
Unfortunately some of the people on here are living in a cloud cuckoo land which generates this completely fictional image they have in their heads about the ages, etc, of other people. This fictitious image is perpetuated by the highly-emotional prejudice that you see daily reflected in the bile and nonsense they spout here every day.
Some wiser heads here know I am not a teenager. The immature insults you see from these people is easily explainable: they try to use as a weapon what they know to be their own biggest weakness. In this case, their accusations of immature argument are just a reflection of their own immature psyche. And you don't see many teenagers around who can see that for what it is.
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Let's not forget that if the unionists had their way, there would have been no Scottish Parliament, and no-one to speak out for the interests of the Scottish economy or the welfare of our indigenous institutions.
Now we see them frantically spinning to wash their hands of any Treasury, UK fiscal or political responsibility for a banking crisis that will hit Scotland hardest of all.
According to our beloved "Scottish"(??) unionists, the global economy is basicallt a "crap-shoot", and "we had it coming"!
That is the overriding message being put across in the self-serving smokescreen about so-called conspiracy theories.
Indeed, we may well ask how a lesser First Minister - i.e. any hypothetical unionsit one - would have handled matters in these circumstances - apart from cowering, pathetic and helpless under a unionist umbrella, pocketing his pay cheques and hoping this nasty finance thing would all go away??!!
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#139 Reluctant-Expat
Keep taking them tablets! The only psychotic paranoia on this blog forum is yourself and your disgraceful ranting.
Your complete lack of self control and inability to commit to an open and frank discussion on any topic is both wearying and unneccesary.
How about the next time you post you think first about what you want to say, write the post, then delete the stuff you have wrote in the white box and press 'Post Comment'.
For that is the culmination of the usefulness of your posts.
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#140,
With the greatest respect, 1 sentence in a web article does NOT constitute "plenty of detail"!
Here's the sort of thing I mean..
. Does the legislation cover UK banks (ie banks with HQs in UK), or all banks operating in the UK? Would the likes of a Barings or a BCCI be covered?
. Define a "bank in trouble". Who makes the definition - the Bank or the State?
. Define "forced" - How will this be done? In what timescale will they be forced to provide info? What penalties will there be for non-disclosure?
. Most importantly, what will the government do when they get the information? Will they inform depositors and employees? What action will they take in the marketplace?
Only when these sort of details come to the surface will we be able to judge their impact.
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I have rarely read such a lot of uninformed nonsense.
The falling of HBOS has no effect, for or against, whatsoever on the independence arguement anymore than the collapse of Northern Rock has any constitutional implications for the UK or England or the handful of collapses and bail outs in the US means the US cannot be an independent country.
What is apparent is that the US is in fact a busted economy being allowed to continue by the largesse of China which holds all the aces, huge amounts of American currency and basically control of America's abilty to deal with its debt.
The other lesson which has been ignored (particularly by this tory Labour Government which has allowed the UK to drop to 17th position in the world's manufacturing league from a position comfortably in the top 6 when they came to power) is that an economy built on inventing money and buying and selling debt on it is a fraud and that India and China and the Far East whose economies are based on efficient manufacturing now control the world's economies.
What is also clear is that the small flexible and widely varied economies of the small countries are much better placed to weather these storms. Scotland however is going down with the unbalanced UK economy. This is not an anti-Scottish plot.
This is merely a fact.
What many people in the street are asking is if the UK government found it practical to pour billions of public money in to save a genuinely busted and mismanged English bank called Northern Rock why did it not think it proper to do the same for HBOS which was solvent and generally trading efficiently?
Or is it merely the fact that the UK no longer has the funds to be able to do this?
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Various anti-SNP posters:
It's very gratifying to see the number of silly insults and personal attacks directed at me.
This is the surest way of knowing that my successful attempts at exposing false claims is really hitting where it hurts.
Keep those childish insults coming!
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Can you please get it into those nationalist heads of your that HBOS is not a Scottish institution? The merged business with Lloyds, if anything, makes it even less of one. Mr Salmond having the temerity to *demand* that jobs be kept in Scotland on the spurious basis that it prints blue banknotes and had 'Scotland' in the title of the company is ridiculous.
Having said that, it's always good to know that Alex is up with the state of play in global finance...
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145. "Let's not forget that if the unionists had their way, there would have been no Scottish Parliament."
Does anyone else want to take this one?
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#147 bingowings87
"Only when these sort of details come to the surface will we be able to judge their impact."
With the greatest of respect, if you're not able to judge the idea until "these sort of details come to the surface" then how did you manage to judge that you "can't see this working" in your #122, when you thought the idea was mine?
Suddenly, after I revealed it was Labour's idea, not mine, you decided in your #136 that it was "too early to judge".
I hate to point this out, but that sort of total somersault in position is unlikely to encourage people to take anything you say seriously.
p.s. If you want answers to those questions there's no point in wasting time typing it all here. Phone up Gordon Brown and ask him what the answers are. It's his idea.
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I would like to quote Jeff from SNP tactical voting of the farce surrounding this merger which has been completely ignored by the somewhat abysmal media.
It seems Vince Cable has suggested on Andrew Neil's This Week programme that Gordon Brown's Government was planning on bringing in legislation to stop short-selling last week, early enough to save HBOS.
"It has been suggested the US stayed Gordon's hand and instead the two Governments brought out the same legislation on the same day. So while HBOS was being ravaged by shortsellers, Gordon Brown held back the legislation that would have saved it.
Has yet more dithering and subservience to the USA from Gordon Brown brought an end to Scotland's oldest bank?
If so, not only should our PM be chased out of office immediately, his conduct surely borders on the criminal. "
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#137 bighullabaloo....
How pathetic. You can't even misquote me properly. Your attempts to misrepresent what I say are lamentable and I expect better of someone your age.
Allow me to quote from your post #48....
"Here are three steps that could be taken to protect a Scottish bank facing a similar threat to the one suffered by HBOS:
1. An early warning system should be in place to force Scottish banks disclose their debts to a Scottish Financial Services Authority. The Scottish government would then be in a position to take timely action to protect vulnerable banks from attacks by unscrupulous short-sellers."
You put forward proposals TO PROTECT A SCOTTISH BANK. I said in my #122 that I did not think this would not work, as any troubled bank is doomed anyway.
In my #136 I merely pointed out that in terms of protection, people (their jobs and deposits) should come first ahead of banks in any rescue system, and that I would support any legislation which focused on that. I 100% stand by these views, and I believe any right thinking person would have similar views.
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#134 Dougie-Dubh
I agree. As recent events have shown, the present constitutional circumstances of Scotland are such that it is as if we are sitting here in a house with all the doors and windows not only unlocked but wide open, with a big sign on the front gate which reads "Enter here and take what you like". Is that wise?
I should think that our assets are so valuable and our potential for going independent so threatening to hostile interests that we should lose no time in shutting and locking those windows and doors and getting a good, fierce, biting and barking dog to guard the front gate. Sorry, I was forgetting that we've already got one of those. No offence intended, bighullabaloo. You're doing a grand job. Sincerely.
As the sack and pillage proceeds during the current economic crisis, the need to secure our house against the Vandals and Visigoths from the south will become ever more apparent. Eventually we shall either secure the building against attack or it will be destroyed, leaving us with an economy so weakened and woebegone that it will provide no end of reassurance to the opponents of independence.
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I'd just like to say that I'm a life-long supporter of Scottish Independence, but I find it incredibly detrimental to the cause to see people twisting this into anti-Unionist politics.
Quite frankly, it's embarrassing.
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the one think that has irritated me in regards to the HBOS affair is the gloating by the uionists that this proves that scottish independance cannot work.
they have had given no thought to the unemployment that will arise out of the medger beteen the banks, be it scottish or english unemployed, nor the share value loss inflicted on stock holders who in a lot of cases are saving money for their retirement and have now seen them dramaticaly reduced.
there are a few questions to be answered as to who is to blame.
1/ did the credit crunch cause the problem - yes, in that banks are finding it hard to access funding.
2/ are the HBOS managment at fault with regards their investments/loan procedure - yes, by investing in the usa markets.
3/ is GB to blame - yes, by failure to bring in proper bank regulation and stock exchange controls timeously.
4/ is the FSA to blame - yes, by allowing short selling.
there are probably a lot of other reasons as well.
but the main problem seem to be that there is no central fund to loan short term funding to banks who who are basicaly sound with healthy assets.
could an independent scottish government help avert the crisis - possibly with the correct procedures in place.
will this help the independence cause - possibly it will, as scots in general take exception to what they perceive as slights from the westminster parliament.
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It's good to see all the MSP's fighting to save as many jobs as possible in Scotland, but spare a thought for the HBOS employees in Halifax who were just as much victims of the spivs and shortsellers and who have no one fighting their corner as strongly.
Things will be very ugly for Labour in West Yorkshire come election day.
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149. I fear you have grossly misread the situation.
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#151
I think I can remember the the arch-nats opposed the parliament at first.......
Devolution.....anybody...
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#159 Reluctant-Expat
I can always rely on you to prove the truth of every word I write here.
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#154 bingowings87
Yes, yes, I know. You're angry that I've shown you up in the desperate act of changing your mind according to whose idea you think you are trashing, so now it's insult time, with you whining: "how pathetic".
If it's my idea you "can't see it working" (#122) a VERBATIM QUOTE of what you wrote. But as soon as I revealed it was Gordon Brown's idea "there is not enough detail to make a judgement on what is proposed." (#136) Another VERBATIM QUOTE of what you wrote.
Incidentally, this is a doubel negative: "I said in my #122 that I did not think this would not work. If you "did not think this would not work" then by definition, you must think it would work. And yet, you wrote in your #122: "Your point 1......can't see this working." At this rate we won't know what you think. Now that is truly pathetic!
Any "troubled bank is doomed anyway" (#154) is a truly nonsensical statement but one we've come to know as the sort of talk that pessimistic Unionists trot out: "We're all doooomed!"
There are plenty of troubled banks out there. Brown acted too late to help HBOS but they've stopped short selling for four months which will at least prevent the worst sort of value-destroying specualtion we saw in HBOS's case. This is precisely what I suggested in my step 2.
It is interesting to note that the true story of what went on here (dismissed by Unionists as a "conspiracy theory) is already leaking out (#153 BrianSH). Whenthe Scottish Scottish public get the real story behind this debacle then a Labour MP will be as hard to find in Scotland as the Tories now are.
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#148 and #156
Sensible posts by you guys, unlike many others on this thread.
Not everything is a pro or anti independence argument!
Individual countries - even of the size of the UK or Germany find it difficult to put in place appropriate regulatory mechanisms, as they hope to maximise the number of finance industry jobs located in their country.
In the same way that other industries, relocate around the world to minimise regulation or to lower costs, so with finance.
I don't know what the solution is - it seems fairly clear no one else does either.
It is however, clear that the answer will not lie at the level of individual governments (Scotland or UK), and that some of kind of international regulatory mechanism will be required if these cyclical problems are to be averted.
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#155 Percy_Flage
"a good, fierce, biting and barking dog to guard the front gate. Sorry, I was forgetting that we've already got one of those. No offence intended, bighullabaloo. You're doing a grand job. Sincerely."
No offence taken. I admit that when I have bitten at the hands of those making the most disgraceful attempts to twist reality here I have taken both their fingers...and their fence. It's a tough life.
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This takeover cannot take place until it has been sanctioned at an EGM by HBOS shareholders. With the share price continually rising they could vote against it, could be interesting.
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Having successfully exposed the gross dishonesty of some of the worst anti-Scottish posters on this board (we all know who they are) it is with great regret that I write this, my penultimate post to this blog.
The task of proving all these anti-Scottish posters wrong now falls to other Nationalists here. I wish them as much success as I've clearly had.
There will be one last post from me after the Glenrothes by election so all my Unionist opponents shouldn't feel too disappointed. I know they are the ones who will miss me most.
With my departure a major gap is created in their sad lives but they mustn't be too down. I am sure they will soon find a new target for their irrational hatred.
bighullabaloo
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Hi from Poland. Trying to follow this shambles via CNN. Hopeless prats!
Whatever happened to honour among thieves? In a civilised country Andy Hornby would be forced, naked, down the Royal Mile, whipped by customers and any passer-by who felt like lashing out. If he had any dignity he would have resigned long ago. If he had any conscience he would take a walk along the line from Waverley.
Don't have time to read all this, but I agree with whoever said irresponsible lending, whether for mortgages or any other loan, should have been banned long ago. It should be a criminal offence to lend anyone much more than twice his salary.
Sorry, but I can't buy into the idea that our domestic political arrangements have anything to do with it. A totally independent Scots bank would still have been greedy enough to stick its snout in the US mortgage trough.
You want cheered up? It's been raining here for three days non-stop.
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Further to my #166
Speak of the devil!
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Labour in Halifax fights Labour in Edinburgh!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7625478.stm
The UK government will be wishing they hadn't dithered for so long, happy conference days in Manchester GB.
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testing.....
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#162.
You made a point in #48 about steps that could be taken to protect a Scottish Bank under threat. I politely disagreed with it, along with my reasons for doing so. Hardly "trashing" it, as you so provocatively put.
As for the typo in my #154. I thank you for pointing this out, as I am sure you will thank me for pointing out yours ("doubel") and your poor grammar (Whenthe Scottish Scottish public) in #162. Even the perfect among us can make mistakes!
Anyway, amongst the froth of #162, you do make a point about banks in trouble. You dismiss my viewpoint as nonsense - fine - some of us are grown up enough to accept robust criticism - but I stand by my view.
Once a bank or financial institution declares itself to be "in trouble", it very quickly loses confidence within its community. Once that happens, there is a massive flight of capital from it. If Lehman brothers had tried to soldier on into this week, who in their right mind would have done business with it? Why were there queues at the door of Northern Rock last year?
I do hope the truth comes out about what really happened to HBOS. I have been a customer for over 25 years, and am quite gutted at the thought of the BOS brand vanishing off my bank cards. But at the core of it, I believe was a flawed business plan which led the bank into misadventure (ie they invested in things that turned out not to be worth the paper they were printed on). No amount of government intervention would have kept them intact - though hopefully jobs and deposits would have been protected.
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The nats hold masons old council seat in Bailleston...
The single transferable vote system was used.......
The nats won by 151 votes.....
22.68% turnout......
Hardly an endorsement of the nats in power.
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As a brief side-note, I'd just like to point out that in the past 24 hours, the SNP's propaganda centrepiece, the 'National Conversation', has received precisely zero new comments.
That would be about 140 comments less than this article has received over the same period.
Furthermore, I’d just like to take this opportunity to thank the nats on these boards for brightening the economic gloom with their crazy and wacky conspiracy theories. God bless you all.
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It may be comforting but is certainly naive to imagine that the United Kingdom is going to stand by and allow the SNP to persuade Scotland to take itself and its valuable assets away, robbing the UK as currently constituted of what it considers to be vital assets required by it just at a point in time when it is entering, through the portal of the current financial crisis, a new economic era to which it will have difficulty in adjusting. That is not happening, and it is not going to happen for perfectly sound and comprehensible reasons.
The UK as presently constituted is a political, economic and strategic asset of the United States. An independent Scotland as proposed by the SNP is problematic for it. To continue to think of Scotland as a backwater where nothing nasty will happen to us is to fail to comprehend the enormity of the threat that further advance by the SNP is considered to pose to US and UK interests. It would make little sense for the USA not to be concerned about this, which is why the National Endowment for Democracy in Washington, DC takes such an interest in it. In case you were wondering what that congressionally funded organization is and does, it should be noted that, although established by the Reagan administration to overcome constitutional limitations placed upon the activities of the CIA overseas, namely interference in foreign governments considered to pose a threat to US interests, it is about to gain a new lease of life, as even the Democratic candidate in the presidential election is committed to increasing funding to it. Where do you imagine that all that anti-SNP propaganda came from in April concerning the SNP government's alleged anti-US and pro-Islamic connections? It all came from the NED. Do you imagine that they have been idle since then? Why on earth would they be?
To safeguard our interests we can either send the SNP packing or embrace their vision for Scotland and make it a reality. Neither position is so dangerous for Scotland, in my view, as the middle ground which we are currently occupying. On this ground we may be perceived as potentially dangerous and consequently be endangered. It is, therefore, not ground which we should occupy for very long.
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166. Good Lord. You just aren't all there, are you.
You firmly believe that this is all part of a conspiracy to destroy nationalism, relying heavily on ill-informed teenagers and a considerable deal of obvious fabrication, while resolutely ignoring those who actually know something about the industry.
You claim to have "exposed the gross dishonesty of anti-Scottish posters" which, apart from being a clear indication of your considerable immaturity, is also a crock of the proverbial on all kinds of levels. "gross dishonesty" and "anti-Scottish posters"? Time to finally grow up, I believe.
You're vast number of posts has only made a laughing stock of anyone with any wits about them. There will be an element sadness at your leaving, but again I fear you have totally misread the situation!
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#117 vote_nat
You've simply ASSUMED I was referring to Scottish companies. Read my post #100 v.carefully. It doesn't even mention companies.
I was referring ONLY to Scottish PEOPLE. That was in response to Thomas (his #47) who said Alistair Darling wasn't a Scot.
But why should I bother to respond to you, you don't even READ the posts, you just leap in with both feet.
Thank you for the information about Scottish companies, but I was ALREADY aware of it.
However, I do still seek definitions of how we define a Scot.
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#100.
Planejock.
Ah yes I should have explained myself a bit more. An English Tory and I was chatting one day, complaining alot about the Scots in the cabinet and how they can not wait till they have an English Prime Minister. I thought I would be clever and then suggested I could not wait for Cameron to get into power then that would be a third Scot PM in a row. Of course, I was wrong, apprently Cameron is English through and through since being born and brought up in London, then of course I explained Alistar was in the same boat and therefore should not be classed as a Scottish cabinet minister since being born and brought up in London.
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Think this whole subject is about talked out now.
The cause of this whole debacle? To paraphrase, "It's the markets, stupid!". End of.
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170. Yes it is, isn't it.
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#Thomas your 177.
Nice try Thomas, but your side-stepping doesn't work. Without exception, you've simply failed to respond to every single point posed in my #100.
To precis them: How do you define a Scot? Answer please.........
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#179. Reluctant-Expat.
Seconded. Nice one!
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Well cheerio bighullabaloo, its been fun...
Whenever I read your posts I get this mental image of Monty Python's Dark Night...
....anyway, what of your future plans? Off to carry out your "stop or be stopped" threat/promise to the anti SNP media? I wait with bated breath.......
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176. At 5:27pm on 19 Sep 2008, Planejock.
if you look at my 127 post you will see that i said sorry to you as my post at 117 was meant as a reply to another poster not to your post and i had mistakenly used your name.
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#183 - vote_nat :
My apologies, I didn't realize that. I've just come online after waking up after a long nightshift last night and must admit, hadn't read all post sent after I went to bed this morning.
I'll now get on to the Mod and attempt to withdraw my 176.
Regards
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#180.
I've not side stepped anything, simply explained why I said Alistar was not Scottish.
How do I define a Scot? There are a number of issues I would look at to define who I believe to be Scottish. I would class you as a Scot if you were born in Scotland, or were related to Scots through your family line, or even if you have lived in Scotland for a number of years. Of course I would also class you as a Scot even if your family was once apart of the Scottish Clans. I don't think I have missed anything else.
I would also accept though, a person can choose to refuse to recognise their Scottish relations if they wanted.
By the way, my Scottish Clan fought alongside Bonnie Prince Charlie, which side did your Clan fight for? My Clan was also loyal to Robert the Bruce, which 'King' did your Clan follow?
;-)
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Oh no, the unionist 'horde(s)' have arrived, all 5 persons of them. Misquotes, 'Scotland isn't not nuthin without UK' and 'US/UK Invasion' of Scotland abound!
If only the people above this post had
a) Perspective
b) The class to engage in any sort of reasoned debate
c) Sources that back up their backward and frequently insulting opinions which they view as facts
Alas none of these from the Unionistas here.
Oh well, off to the pub after a busy week. I'm sure this lot will be fighting with themselves in their bedrooms while the rest of us accept and deal with reality.
I note the Kremlin on the Clyde led with news that the HBOS exec will cashing in his huge shares wad.
Completely immoral, yes.
But what about Comrade Broons failure to stop short selling as he had to wait for his chums in the Whitehouse? Not a chance, perhaps we will hear about that when the Drama Queenunionistas get in touch with reality.
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#166 Goodbye, bighullabaloo
You made an impact.
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#180, Why ask a stupid question...
A Scot is someone who lives/works in Scotland or is related through Marriage or Blood to anyone who has done so in the past.
My my, that's lots of people. Heaven forbid your Scottishness starts showing! It'll be an awful embarrassment at the Laa'baa'r Toon Cooncil Meetin!
Gosh, that was easy.
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#185. Thomas
Aah, so YOU've decided that Alistair Darling isn't Scottish. How long has he lived in Scotland? Is he on the electoral roll? If he meets your (undefined) residency criteria, and if he wishes, then surely he can choose to be a Scot? It's not up to YOU to decide someone's nationality! That smacks of the Gestapo banging on Jews' doors in the middle of the night , because the Nazi regime had "decided" they weren't really German. Be very careful here Thomas...
Although you haven't actually asked my religion yet, as to your somewhat impertinent question, "What did your clan do in the war daddy?", for your information my dad flew Sunderlands with RAF Coastal Command from Oban. Is this your nationality test? It's hardly politically correct and enlightened 21st century stuff is it?
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185. At 6:41pm on 19 Sep 2008, Thomas_Porter.
hi thomas,
i beleive that you will find that A.D. is scottish as his grandfather owned darlings of edinburgh.
allthough we like to say that he's not scottish because he was born in london, i believe both his parents were scottish and he was brought up in edinburgh.
its not very often that we try to disown a scotsman, but i suppose in A.D.s case we may have a point. ( only kidding )
it just so happens that A.D.is my local MP just now but hopefully not for much longer.
in fact i spotted him in balerno at the start of the summer.
freinds of mine know him personaly and say he is very brainy ( i dont know if they mean wendy like ) and others say that he is brainy but not chancelor material.
as i do not know him personaly then i cannot say myself if he is up to the job.
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# 186 BrianSH
I am rather dismayed by your post, not because I am a unionist but because I am in favour of independence.
If your reference to a "US/UK Invasion" related to anything in my post, then you have failed to understand it. Try reading it again.
In point of fact the US government has taken a close interest in the SNP for many years. As the SNP is proposing to shut down a NATO nuclear facility on the Clyde and withdraw Scotland from NATO, this is hardly surprising.
It can only be in the interests of the USA to support its close and valued ally, the UK, and to do what it can to prevent its disintegration. This is happening now, and Scotland is beginning to suffer as a result. Does it not feel as if we are suffering?
To support a cause involves understanding and accepting the difficulties which that necessarily involves. What the SNP is doing is in effect to attack the UK's strongest ally. How did you imagine that it would respond to that? Pat us on the back? Facilitate the process? Do try to be realistic.
It is easier to overcome difficulties if you acknowledge and understand them. If you ignore them, even when they are hitting you in the face and pounding you on the head, they will overcome you. Wake up, do, and see what is happening. It is not usual for countries to attain independence without a degree of pain. Is Scotland feeling any pain at the moment? Do you think you may be beginning to understand the matter a bit better now? I do not wish to spell things out for you. Work it out for yourself.
If you prefer to take a simple-minded view of things, perhaps you would be happier as a unionist.
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hi thomas,
by the way do not blame A.D. for the 10p tax fiasco blame G.B..
its not often that you hear of a labour government that taxes the poorer members of society to give extra to the middle and high earners, then turns round and say that they did not realise the implications of what they had done, and then gives back half of what they had taken but also give the same to the middle and high earners.
they should have been called the new conservative labour party.
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Sneckedagain states:
What is also clear is that the small flexible and widely varied economies of the small countries are much better placed to weather these storms.
That's not remotely clear, given the hit places like Ireland and Iceland have taken. Even Denmark is in recession. Hand on heart, who do you think is better placed to weather economic turmoil? Small independent countries like Denmark, Iceland and Ireland, or federation members like Bavaria, Catalonia and Scotland?
I'm going to stand by my prediction that Scotland will overtake Ireland at some point in the future, without independence. Let's say, by the end of 2014.
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#189.
I did not decide that Alistar was not Scottish. I defined what makes a Scotsman and Alistar does fit into what I would personally consider what makes someone Scottish.
But why did I change my opinion for Alistar?
Well I already explained to you that some Tory Toff stated that David Cameron is 100% English (despite his Scottish History) and by their logic Alistar Darling would also be English and therefore not a Scottish Cabinet Minister (my way of trying to show there are not to many Scots in cabinet).
Of course I recognise David Cameron as Scottish (and English) which I have already wrote before one of the blogs. Alistar Darling would be in the same boat.
Nationality test? What have you been smoking this evening? I simply asked you several questions. Can you not answer them? A simple 'I don't know' would do.
Also you did ask me to define a Scot, so why complain and attempt to paint the picutre that I am dictating to other people what their nationalities are? If you are unhappy with my definition then please sulk somewhere else. You are allowed to disagree with what I write but don't you dare start telling me that my own OPINION is wrong. Have some respect for another persons point of view please.
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"What a difference a day makes
twenty four little hours
All the trees and the flowers
When there used to be rain."
Blether with Brian Tuesday:- David Cairns resigns. Unalloyed triumph from the Nats, onward and forward to the sunlit uplands of a Caledonian Paradise. Gordon Brown, numpty of the year. Ha-ha, ho-ho, he-he.
Blether with Brian Wednesday:- HBOS goes belly-up. Woe! Woe! and thrice woe! We are doomed, doomed!
Conspiracy! Gordon Brown, evil schemer. Yah! Boo! Hiss!
And you wonder why some of us are a bit reticent about letting you people run our lives.
To state the position baldly, on Tuesday, a junior Minister remembering his apostolic vows suddenly decided he could no longer parrot the received gibberish and that is it, that is all of it. On Wednesday, a bank decided to put a bid in for another bank and that's it, that's all of it.
But, what do we discover in this post - people threatening to take their overdrafts elsewhere because this will protect Scottish jobs and the Scottish economy. Aye right.
Or these poor, deluded souls who are actually in credit to the bank - you really don't understand the system, do you?
Anyone who was in credit to a bank since 1998, the decade of moral hazard, has got to be deranged. Our banks, all of our banks, have been building palaces of paper, only to discover that it is exactly that - paper. And the bills just came due.
Sadly, as I indicated in a previous post, people are going to lose their jobs, I gave it 18 months. I was wrong. A lot of people are going to lose their jobs very shortly in HBOS, Aberdeen and Highland Councils
and a number of other public and private places who thought the palaces of paper were get rich quick schemes. But, by way of cheering up the Nats, a lot more people are going to lose their jobs in the square mile.
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#189 Thomas
It's very simple, you cannot deny it, YOU said in your #47, and this is verbatim: "Darlin was born and brought up in London so really is not Scottish. He is simply an Englishman holding a Scottish seat." If you don't believe me, check it - that's what YOU said.
So despite your protestations, YOU decided A.D. was not Scottish. Right or wrong? Answer please.
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From the USA
I'd be happier if we were doing better in the Ryder Cup!
However, it looks like the US authorities, after a lot of shilly-shallying over saving/nationalising banks or allowing them to collapse, have gone for the solution that worked in the '30s and '80s.
Buy all the bad debt from the banks (at a price the Government sets), and remove the froth from the finance sector.
That should stabilise the market, and prevent the financial crisis spreading to the "real world".
The "spivs and charlatans" take their huge cut from the taxpayer, as they did in previous crises. No doubt the regulatory system will be tightened up again - until the next time!
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The deepening financial crisis gripping the capitalism system has already seen a swathe of banks and financial institutions go to the wall or be taken over or merged.
The list already contains household names of US and British finance and more will be added.
Moreover the interventions of the US Federal Reserve Board and the Bank of England carry with it the real threat of state bankruptcy.
Politicians and economists may belatedly throw up their hands in mock horror at the unregulated and unrestrained activities of the parasites of finance capital, yet they were all very well aware of what was going on long ago. Nevertheless, while these institutions were generating obscene amounts of profit for the few, at the expense of the majority of the population, they were content to say nothing. Only now, when the reckless speculation, criminal incompetence and sheer orgy of greed threatens to bring the entire global financial system crashing down do they murmur any criticism.
It is only three months ago that the Sunday Times ran a headline that boasted “Rich Get Richer under New Labour” and only last year that the City of London paid itself over £14 billion in bonuses alone. However there is no mention by our politicians and bourgeois economists that any of this amount should now be returned. On the contrary, the Brown government has told the working class, the very victims of the financial rogues, that they must accept below inflation pay rises, and that they must economise on their food purchases and be prepared for ‘difficult times’.
Moreover, what no Scottish, British or US mainstream politician is mentioning is that the financial speculators and hedge funds have also played a crucial role in driving up basic commodity prices, including food items, that has resulted, according to the United Nations World Food Programme “in plunging more than 100 million people on every continent into hunger. This is the new face of hunger – the millions of people who were not in the urgent hunger category six months ago but now are”. (WFP 22nd April 2008).
This occurred when, because of the approaching turmoil, the speculators moved out of the property, credit and debt markets and into food and raw materials, without a second thought for the catastrophic outcome this would mean for millions of the world’s poor.
Yet it is not these millions who the US and UK governments are now rushing to help; on the contrary, like the loyal servants of capitalism that they are, they are hurrying to assist the very financial institutions responsible for this increasing poverty and hunger.
Furthermore, the deepening financial chaos will only serve to spur on the New Labour government’s privatisation plans and their attacks on welfare, pensions, health and education, as they attempt to impose the full effects of the crisis onto the backs of workers. It is their belief that every penny spent on unemployment and incapacity benefits, on pensions and on health, is a drain on profits.
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#198 jam804
'It is their belief that every penny spent on unemployment and incapacity benefit, on pensions and on health, is a drain on profits'.
New Labour are not actually that bright.
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#196.
Planejock.
I also said, "How do I define a Scot? There are a number of issues I would look at to define who I believe to be Scottish. I would class you as a Scot if you were born in Scotland, or were related to Scots through your family line, or even if you have lived in Scotland for a number of years. Of course I would also class you as a Scot even if your family was once apart of the Scottish Clans. I don't think I have missed anything else."
Alistar Darling, from using my very own definition is/can be classed as Scottish from my point of view but I was also expressing my own opinion that Alistar Darling can also be classed as an Englishman for being born and brought up in London.
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#200 - Thomas Porter
Aah, at last, you're finally now saying A.D. "is/can be Scottish?" Thank you. A 180 degree turn. Belated, but you finally got there.
I'm off now, have a nice weekend.
Cheers pal.
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Oldnat .... you've departed to sunnier climes just as summer unleashes itself on Scotland !! .... regarding a post further back about a UK/US invasion of Scotland (and also to let the PRO UNONISTAS think im a Nationalist fruitcake) do you think that as the good ol US of A might not be to happy with a future policy of doing away with the nasty weapons on the Clyde, they might be guiding policy on the world stage to stop independence. Careful with the reply now as the CIA might be in the room next door. Well id better be off as the selection of fine beers is starting to make me squint at the screen through one eye.... ciao
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#198 jam804
In complete agreement and things will never change until there is a complete breakaway from "the old boys network" that is endemic throughout these isles. Politicians have been given to much power over the people whose taxes keep them in their isolated lifestyles.
A selection of cartoons by Cartoonist Scarfe and his 'Monsters'
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/7623769.stm
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#203
Checked out the cartoons. Excellent! The Thatcher "Belgrano" one is unrealistic however.
I can't believe she ever had a conscience.
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Just had another look at the original article above by Brian Taylor. the last few lines include "Labour has already proposed a "banking summit", indicating that they favour a cross-partisan approach" (Iain Gray) and "It will be intriguing to see whether a multi-party approach can be sustained" (BT).
I thought we'd had a "multi-party" approach to the economy for at least the last 15 years!
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Bighullabaloo! Sorry to see you leave us. You are a legend.
I do hope we get someone to pick up the batton however you will be a hard act to follow.
I'm sure you will take the fight elsewhere.
With thanks for all you have done for the cause.
Freedom
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#66 jordanbasset
Your wrong. The Scottish Government is currently operating a competition for finance for Scottish only companies called the Scottish Investment Fund. They're doing it through Social investment Scotland.
And before you whine on about racist conspiracy - this is a follow on from a previous scheme run by the Labour/Libs called Futurebuilders.
Wrong!
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204. At 9:40pm on 19 Sep 2008, jam804 wrote:
#203
Checked out the cartoons. Excellent! The Thatcher "Belgrano" one is unrealistic however.
I can't believe she ever had a conscience.
------------
Would you have preferred that the Belgrano had been left alone and sunk a troopship or two?
At least Thatcher was defending British territory, rather than invading a couple of countries, one under false pretences.
And what has this got to do with the topic??
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RE- "Labour has already proposed a "banking summit", indicating that they favour a cross-partisan approach" (Iain Gray)
i can see the summit going alone the lines.
IAIN :- please sir can a go first as ive got a degree in social siences.
ALEX :- OK, but make your ideas sensible.
IAIN :- i propose that i buy HBOS as i have 1000 pounds in ma savings account.
ALEX :- im sorry iain but we would need at least 14 billion pounds.
IAIN :- then ive got jobs fir thems that ur made redundant.
ALEX :- now that seems a good idea, tell me more.
IAIN :- they can all get work in mozambique wi oxfam counting coffee beans.
GOLDIE :- IAIN go to the corner wi TAVISH and you can now wear the dunces hat instead of TAVISH.
TAVISH :- miss GOLDIE can a now come out of the corner no as i dun nothing wrang.
GOLDIE :- TAVISH ! how can you call being born as nothing wrang.
joking apart, one can only hope that the parties do join together and do the best that they can for the HBOS workers who are affected.
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Hello there Thomas, still making up fairy stories?
"Alistar Darlin but Darlin was born and brought up in London so really is not Scottish. He is simply an Englishman holding a Scottish seat."
A.D. Born in England, to Scottish parents, brought up and fully educated in Scotland, and talks with a posh Scottish accent; MP for Edinburgh South West; great pals with TBliar and GBroon. You catch my drift?
P.s. you've spelt his surname wrong.
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Not a good European day!
I've also been following the Presidential election here on TV, and am so glad I live in Scotland. Imagine (if youse will) more extreme versions of bighullaballoo and Expat arguing with, and across, each other 24 hrs per day, and it doesn't even approach the awfulness of US political coverage.
My 2 year old grandson can now count up to 5. I reckon that makes him a better candidate for office than most of what I see here.
#202 rabbie (9.15pm US EST)
Any small country which sits on strategic resources, or controls a strategic route is vulnerable to formal or informal take-over in time of war. Ask Iceland, which the UK invaded in 1940 simply because it wanted to remain neutral but it controls the opposite side of the strategic Faroes Gap from Scotland, and the UK thought that the Germans would invade if we didn't.
In the modern world, the UK is a powerless small country, so if we were outside the EU, Scotland would be vulnerable inside or outside the UK.
I doubt if the USA cares at all about the status of Scotland, as long as US investment in the North Sea is not threatened with nationalisation.
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So, the politicians are angry about the "spivs and speculators" who targeted HBOS.
Big deal Brian;, the public are angry about the politicians who have allowed the financial institutions to pursue their own interests free of government oversight to check their willingness to assume excess risk or stop them from trying to get away with deliberate fraud.
This same scenario has occurred many times throughout history and every time the tax payer ends up footing the bill, and the "Money Changers" get richer. Some times it even leads to war. The nightmare here is the greed of these people could destroy the whole planet.
So Brian, when you as a respected BBC political commentator tell us that we may yet retain "some head office function, in both retail and corporate"; `You insult us`!.
For many years lots of ordinary citizens have have been raising concerns over the ways our financial institutions have operated and many have predicted what is happening now. However, very little - if any - concerns have been raised by yourself, the BBC or the media in general.
What we do get is a "blog" with a title that starts with the word "Blether" meaning - "babbling nonsense".
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#212 cruiskeen
Yes the govt. are angry at 'spivs and speculators'. However, the City are very angry at being described as 'spivs and speculators', which is not good news for the govt. and is especially not good news for Mr. Salmond.
The govt. borrows money and backs their borrowing in the form of govt. gilts, bonds and securities. Alex Salmond would like the ability to borrow money (also known as fiscal autonomy) and presumably would do it by issuing Scottish gilts, etc. Guess who they borrow the money from? Yep, you got it, the 'spivs and speculators'. So both the govt. and Mr. Salmond better hope that they are not feeling deeply insulted and tell the govt. to get lost, and fiscal autonomy is meaningless if no one is going to lend you money.
This credit crisis hs been coming for quite a while and a lot of people knew it. So why was nothing done about it? Simple answer, bankers are human just like the rest of us. The most senior people in any organisation are likely to be those who are closest to retirement. If a major problem arises, like most people, you ignore it and hope it goes away or you hope you're retired before it hits and someone else has to deal with it.
'Spivs and speculators' tend to be younger and hungrier. They also smelt the blood in the water some time ago and began circling, HBOS was not the only wounded fish.
The creation of govt. oversight in the UK and US has chased the sharks away for the moment, but continual oversight is a direct violation of commercial cofidentiality and will eventually kill the capitalist system and, by extension, govts. ablity to borrow money which helps nobody.
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We demand a public enquiry, this stinks to high heaven.
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Anyone looked at the Daily Mash headline this morning?
Kinda sums it all up perfectly!
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#208 No sense of humour then!
Still waiting for my #165 to pass moderation,
Heard on the Radio that Margo has asked the police to investigate I can only presume it has something to do with this.
http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/latestnews/HBOS-The-questions-just-keep.4511727.jp
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#216 Brown the 'control freak' with his fingers in the financial pie, surely no, but then again mibee's aye. He likes his own way does Gordon and isn't to adverse to making sure he gets it (ask Tony B about the knives in his back). These financial icebergs have been on the horizon for quite some time, yet the Captain Brown of the Titanic waits until collision is unavoidable before taking action. For all his so called intelligence, for his so called attention to detail, his track record is one of incompetence. I hope his party sinks, I hope he goes down with it.
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#202 rabbiehippo
I am somewhat concerned. You say that there is an earlier post in this thread about "a UK/US invasion of Scotland". However, I am unable to find it. Would you point it out to me, please.
I see that in #174 and #191 there is reference to the UK/US alliance but none whatever to an invasion. If these are the posts to which you referred, you have either misunderstood or misrepresented their content.
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#218 post_meridiem
Thank you for pointing out that there is no reference to any kind of invasion in either of my posts (#174 and #191).
There are none so blind as those who will not see. Only puny secrets need protection. Big discoveries are protected by public incredulity.
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#213 I think the term 'spivs and speculators' is indeed a poor description of the people who operate on the fringes of financial legality and morality, a much better term to describe them would be 'economic terrorists' since their actions have helped to undermine the financial stability of our country (whether you want to consider that as the Scotland or the UK is up to yourself). Osama Bin Laden even in his wildest dreams could never have dealt such a damaging blow to the Western and indeed 'Global' (Gordon Brown's current buzz word) financial systems. While US and UK forces continue the so called war on terror in far away places and the collateral damage (that's dead civilians) there increases on a daily basis, what actions will be taken to bring to justice these economic terrorists within our own society, anything? Or will the losses to our savings, investments and pensions simply be put down as the collateral damage of a not so phoney financial war.
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#210.
Jim_Thompson, I do not have to create fairy tale stories. You are here, speaking nonesense for all to see and putting many to sleep with your 'stories'.
Besides you are still wrong. You originally said that most cabinet ministers were Scottish. How can four (counting Darling) out of twenty three ministers mean that 'most of the cabinet are Scots' as you said?
You were either lying or simply being stupid, which is it?
Also simply for attending school in Scotland does not make you Scottish. People enter the United Kingdom from all over the world to attend University, it does not make you British so why would it be different for those from England entering Scotland to attend school? I'm going to spend the next years of my life in England and Germany. Does that make me English or German for attending further education/training there?
You have become more pathetic then the last time you came on these blogs. Ah but I see where you are coming from because they sound Scottish and have Scottish friends then they are Scottish? Are you for real?
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The Politics Home Website has conducted its detailed polling of UK marginals. They suggest for Scotland -
Con Gain from Lab - Dumfries and Galloway, Renfrewshire East, Edinburgh South
SNP gain from LibDem - Argyll and Bute, Dunfermline and West Fife
SNP gain from Lab - Edinburgh North and Leith, Dundee West, Kilmarnock and Loudoun, Ochil and South Perthshire
The same swing from Lab to SNP as in the marginals which were polled would also mean
SNP gain from Lab - Glenrothes, Midlothian, Linlithgow and Falkirk East, Lanark and Hamilton East, Paisley and Renfrewshire North, Edinburgh East, Ayrshire North and Arran and East Lothian
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The SNP have had a lovely thank you party for all the loyalist activists in Fife this evening, all of 6 turned up. It is a joy to see how the SNP are captivating the imagination!
An email sent to all SNP supporters and only 6 turn up, oh dear! Lets see how much coverage this gets in the media!
x
P.S. I miss you bighullabaloo!
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#223
Why use a hammer to crack a nut? When all that is required is a small patrol to do a recce.
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#223 skaufman. Thanks for the news. I assume you are talking about Glenrothes? Perhaps you can illuminate us about the Labour campaign?
According to todays Sun, the campaign leader has quit. That is Frank Roy MP. He is quoted as saying the campaign is 'shambolic' and that the party efforts are 'half hearted'.
Freedom
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Further to previous posts (#174, #191 and #219) referring to the National Endowment for Democracy of Washington, DC, which is taking a special interest in the Scottish Government, the Scottish National Party and indeed all non-core national or quasi-national identities and political movements in the United Kingdom, the following may prove enlightening.
Why is the NED so concerned about the SNP government and Scotland? Scrutiny of various studies produced by tame academics on its behalf reveals a profound concern upon British national security grounds. Fundamentally, the organization promotes the view that Britain, an organically-evolved polity without a strong core national identity, is failing and must continue to fail to integrate its Muslim population and to tackle effectively the security problem concerning radical Islamism in so far as the empowering of the peripheral national identities threatens a core British one, which, if strengthened, could be mobilized to draw in and integrate politically, culturally and socially those immigrant communities which it regards as problematic from a security point of view.
Needless to say, the peripheral sub-British national community causing the NED most concern at present is Scotland, not least because of the degree of self-government which Scotland enjoys and the diluting effect which this is perceived to have on British identity. The fact that the current governing party is in favour of Scottish independence and is striving to achieve it is regarded as inimical to NED-supported efforts to counter terrorism in the UK. The NED, which regards a strong core British identity as necessary for opposing that threat, therefore looks for opportinities and pretexts for associating the Scottish National Party with individuals, groups and governments which are viewed with disapproval by that organization from a security point of view.
There follows a brief commentary on the National Endowment for Democracy.
The NED was founded in 1983 because President Reagan had suggested it would be nice to have a private organization promoting "democracy" in a way the CIA could not because of a little thing called the Constitution of the United States. You are familiar with that, surely? That is the document which begins as follows: "When in the course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bonds which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth the separate and equal station to which the laws of nature and of nature's God entitle them, a decent respect for the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation." Noble sentiments, ones which many of us in Scotland would like to give expression to in such a document, if only we could be left in peace to get on with persuading our fellow citizens of the desirability of it.
Reagan spoke simply, his minions nodded wisely and responded, and the NED was born.
What is the NED? According to its Web site, it is "premised on the idea that American assistance on behalf of democracy efforts abroad would be good both for the US and for those struggling around the world for freedom and self-government."
But one's suspicions of the NED become aroused almost immediately when one learns its chairman happens to be Vin Weber, former Republican congressman from Minnesota's 2nd District and ubiquitous man-about-town in Washington, DC.
Anyway, the NED is better described by its detractors than by its supporters. One detractor is the Republican congressman from the Texas Gulf Coast, Dr Ron Paul. Paul, who is more Libertarian than Republican, writes thus:
"The misnamed National Endowment for Democracy is nothing more than a costly program that takes US taxpayer funds to promote favoured politicians and political parties abroad. What the NED does in foreign countries ... would be rightly illegal in the United States. The NED injects 'soft money' into the domestic elections of foreign countries in favour of one party or the other.
"Imagine what a couple of hundred thousand dollars will do to assist a politician or political party in a relatively poor country abroad. It is particularly Orwellian to call US manipulation of foreign elections 'promoting democracy'. How would Americans feel if the Chinese arrived with millions of dollars to support certain candidates deemed friendly to China? Would this be viewed as a democratic development?"
Rep. Paul continues by quoting Barbara Conry, a foreign policy analyist for the Cato Institute, a mostly libertarian think tank:
"NED, which also has a history of corruption and financial mismanagement, is superfluous at best and often destructive. Through the endowment, the American taxpayer has paid for special-interest groups to harass the duly elected governments of friendly countries, interfere in foreign elections, and foster the corruption of democratic movements ..."
The NED is a part of America's shadow government, yet another underground agency responsible to no one. It masquerades as a non-governmental organization, but in fact nearly all of its 35 million dollar annual budget comes from Uncle Sam.
It is just another symptom of the cancer destroying American democracy.
Finally, it should be noted that NED is bipartisan. Although it seems heavily loaded with scoundrels from the right, it also includes scoundrels from the left among its leadership.
The manipulation of information to further its ends in countries targeted by it is a speciality of this arm's-length arm of the US government. It deploys what are known as embedded reporters in respected media outlets to disseminate its views and harm the individuals and organizations of which it disapproves. Specially selected sponsored academics also spread its views about. Do you remember the Gallagher letter to the Washington Times in April, which the Scottish Government viewed as so damaging that it arranged for the British Embassy to reply to it. That reply was published, but an immediate response from Gallagher unceremoniously brushed it aside as worthless on account of the fact, as he claimed, that the official involved was merely required to act as a mouthpiece for the Scottish Government. That whole damaging incident was an NED special, Gallagher being at the time on its payroll. I remind you that the story in this case was that there existed an "Edinburgh-Tehran axis" and that anyone who said differently was under the influence of the SNP government, which, he maintained - to a US readership, remember - had made Scotland "march to a single drum-beat".
What is fantastic is not a claim that the NED is actively engaged in opposing our government. What is fantastic is its scare stories. Information is power. The NED exercises power in other people's countries by means of the dissemination of misinformation, disinformation and rumour through an extensive network of contacts throughout the world. It is very much present here. It has the capacity to finance political parties through these contacts, which is why the rules governing donations to political parties and particular politicians at the Scottish Parliament should be enforced rigorously. That is one major reason why these rules are of vital importance to our democracy and why infringement of them should be severely punished. Anyone caught infringing them should not be assumed to be guilty of nothing more than an innocent clerical error or misunderstanding. Very close scrutiny of such misdemeanours is wholly warranted in all cases.
Lastly, in view of the fact that the NED has all this power and the full backing of the US Congress and the US Government to exercise it here, it is pertinent at this moment to consider the extent to which it might permit itself to seek to damage the interests of a political party dedicated to causing the disintegration of the United Kingdom. The NED, I suspect, has the capacity and the means to manipulate market information and to influence the conduct of hedge-fund managers and other market players to destabilize and bring down a company such as a bank. As we are all well aware, a bank rests upon public confidence. Remove that confidence and its foundation is gone, even if it is intrinsically sound. Does this remind you of anything at all?
Whether or not anything that has been happening in this past week can be attributed to activity of this type, it is certainly the case that this dubious organization has the necessary means and a motive. It was also provided with an opportunity. The reduction of the viability of the Scottish economy as an independent entity would seem, I am afraid, to further the aims of this organization, given its published analysis of the security problems of the UK.
The NED is not a well-known organization even in the United States. It was dreamed up by Ronald Reagan to be a front for the CIA. That is why it is no exaggeration to say that that, extraordinary and fanciful though it may seem to us to be, is precisely what it is. And it is here. It is as well that we all be aware of it.
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#226 Deep_Thrapple
I'd never heard of the NED till your post, so I thought I'd check their website.
Few references to Scotland showed up. The main one was the work of Dr. Tom Gallagher is chair in ethnic conflict and peace studies at the University of Bradford - “The Alienation of British-Born Muslims from Democratic Processes”
A Power Point summary is given on this page called The Missing British Dream A Fractured Democracy Faces Muslim Discontent More mention is made of Thatcher's individualism than Scottish independence.
Can you quote the source you are using?
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#227 oldnat
You have the advantage over me of a more civilized time of day, I think.
Until April I had never heard of the NED either. I am afraid that it is in the nature of the organization that it is necessary to look for information about it mainly away from its Web site, which, nevertheless, does tell you something about its official status. It hasn't got one. It is an ostensibly private body which, nevertheless, is funded by annual congressional appropriation not requiring matching funds from other sources. Indeed, it is almost entirely funded by the government. The oversight activity required in connection with this creates some record of the nature of its functions, many of which appear to be capable of presentation as legitimate, as is to be expected. Non-governmental commentators should also be consulted. Some of them are rather revealing.
The NED is essentially in effect a government agency operating overseas on behalf of the US government without being democratically accountable for its actions or subject to constitutional limitations. In other words, a highly un-American vehicle for promoting American interests in the shadows. This gives it enormous freedom of action, circumventing the restraints and restrictions by which agencies funded by the taxpayer are normally expected to be bound. The first question to be asked is, I think: why create an organization so constituted? And why is it apparently to be expanded at a time of national insecurity? "I will significantly increase funding for the National Endowment for Democracy (NED) and other nongovernmental organizations to support civic activists in repressive societies." (Barack Obama, Washington Post, March 2nd 2008)
Exposure to the Gallagher diatribes in the Washington Times, which is pretty much neo-con, as far as I can see, compared to the Washington Post, led me to explore. I wondered what sort of organization an academic would be connected with who would compare the First Minister to a former US governor with a dubious reputation who was assassinated by powerful interests which he had offended and write that a "suffocating conformity (...) awaits Scotland if this savvy operator" (Mr Salmond) "manages to bounce her (Scotland) out of the United Kingdom". Imagine my astonishment when I discovered its reputation among the political cognoscenti of the United States. I sense that you do not need any assistance from me to do your own exploring. I presume that the SNP has done its research.
In case the Washington Times search engine can't take you to the Gallagher letters that it published in April, here is an old link to one of them: http://www.washingtontimes.com/article/20080407/COMMENTARY/787593044.
As for a Gallagher paper to which you referred, you will find there, I think, an analysis of the problem of British Muslim 'anomie' and its relationship to British national identity. It is well worth studying.
By the way, have you come across any US citizens who are aware of the existence of this organization?
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#228 Deep_Thrapple
Interesting stuff re NED. I'll explore this further. Anyone else who wants to explore the issue may want to start with the Wikipedia article
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Further to the NED issue -
Deep_Thrapple's link to Gallager's article in the Washington Times can be read at Scotland's Huey Long.
To describe it as nasty political invective (from a supposed academic scholar!) is an underestimate.
However, the really interesting issues are -
1. Why publish it in a very right wing American paper in a style designed to push emotional buttons in its readership?
2. Why are the "arguments" that Gallagher makes so close to the attacks on the SNP that have been made in the Scottish press since its publication?
3. Whose interests are being promoted by this NED campaign?
Tentative answers might be -
1. The Scots diaspora is especially well represented in the Conservative Southern and mid-Atlantic States. The tenor of the article would tend to discourage the emotional and financial support from the diaspora that "the Homecoming" is designed to develop to Scotland's advantage, compared with the support Ireland has enjoyed (note especially Gallagher's derogatory comparison with Ireland). The suggestion that Salmond (NB the suggestion of a dictator as opposed to the leader of a party) is a close ally of Iran is particularly sugestive of a strategy.
2. The close similarity between Gallagher's article in the Washington Times and recent issues raised in Scotland might be either
"Gallagher had an insight on these real issues before anyone else had realised them"
or
"Gallagher and the Unionist Press were working to a common agenda, determined elsewhere"
Take your pick - according to your perspective.
3. Since the Gallagher comments are patently stupid, the issues are not likely to be of any realistic concern to senior US politicians or diplomats (OK Palin may be an exception!). What seems much more likely is that the US is not particularly interested but is giving a cheap payback to their UK pals, who want to try to rubbish any idea of Scottish Independence.
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It shows the weakness of the fundamental unionist argument that they require megaphone fear and smear tactics to try to persuade people against a logical course of action.
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BrianSH "It shows the weakness of the fundamental unionist argument that they require megaphone fear and smear tactics to try to persuade people against a logical course of action."
I think I've mention this before in other debates, but feel it's worthy of another mention. The rest of the UK do not care if Scotland goes independent; only UK politicians care, such as GBroon and ADarling, because it is them that will lose out, not us. Very few of us ever cross the border in to Scotland, it's far too cold and unwelcoming.
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230. At 07:24am on 21 Sep 2008, oldnat.
these are very interesting links that you have supplied and everyone should read them.
westminster must be very worried that scotland may to gain independence.
i suppose the logical question is what the rest of the UK has to lose if scotland were to gain independence.
one think that i have noticed is that westminster deliberately holds back funds that are due to the scottish parliament so that the SNP have to complain about it.
i can only assume that westminster are trying to foster the idea that the that the SNP are deliberatly picking fights with westminster.
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An interesting story in todays Sunday Herald about a Scottish Banking Consortium arranging to buy BOS from HBOS with Holyrood motivation.
Couldn't see that ever happening with good ol' Liebore.
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Telegraph and Sunday mail both carrying insider trading stories, Margo Mc Donald has asked the Lothians and Borders police to investigate, story from the Sunday Post.
190 million made before the takeover announcemnet.
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GORDON BROWN is quoted as as saying :-
He said he was "never complacent" and had made mistakes on the 10p tax rate but had made the right decisions on Northern Rock and short selling.
he is also quoted as saying that at the time of an election a party will be judged on their policies.
sorry gordon, a party will be judged on its time in government and your government has been found to found to be wanting, not that i believe that a conservative government will be any better.
as to his mistakes.
is there anyone that believes that the 10p tax fiasco was not a deliberate tax hike on the poorer paid members of society.
the northern rock collapse was down to no proper controls in place, and that is down to his time as chancellor and as prime minister.
the suspention of the short selling on 39 listed companies is to little to late and does nothing to protect other listed companies from being brought to their knees by speculators.
GORDON, your party has failed the electorate, and i believe that no amount of soundbites can resurrect it in the forsee able future.
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230# oldnat
Is this a welcome home or are you still Transatlantic blogging?
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I see the nats have given up trying to sell the HBOS takeover as a 'conspiracy' and are now trying to claim there is yet another conspiracy, this time between the anti-independents/unionists and the Americans.
This is not pathetic or desperate in any way and absolutely does not, again in any way whatsoever, make the nats look any more ridiculous than they already do.
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With apologies to Private Eye:
So, farewell then,
Bighullabaloo.
You were the lost sheep,
that thought he was a lion.
The frothing propagandist,
that even your cause disowned
in your wilder moments.
Raving against the setting
of the sun.
Demanding proof that the
earth is a sphere,
while blinding us with
your imaginary intellect.
How sad, therefore, that
Poland called me;
Allowing you to depart
in a blaze of indifference,
preventing me from
administering a final kick
upon your permanently
proffered posterior.
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Surprised that Alex has not demanded Scotland’s Gold from the Bank of England (or should that be the European Bank) bought out the Bank of Scotland and make it the national bank.
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#239 brigadierjohn
As usual you haven't read my post properly.
I haven't finished with you yet.
Everyone loves seeing a blowhard like you being humiliated. Saving the best till last.
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#241: Expect a Frank Sinara moment folks!
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It's true about prize-fighters and fantasists: They never come back.
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#241/243 brigadierjohn
Oh dear.
Two immediate outbursts of enraged bluster. I can hear your knees knocking together already!
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#240 bdscotop
I thought Gordon Brown sold off all Scotland's gold at the lowest price for 20 years early on in his Chancellorship. But he didn't confess it in his list of errors to Andrew Marr so I may be wrong.
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The obituary has been written, but the memory lingers on. He'll be touring with Johnnie Beattie next.
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238. At 12:22pm on 21 Sep 2008, Reluctant-Expat.
you state that the nats are giving up on the conspiracy theory with regards to the HBOS takeover.
whereas some nats in their anger as to what happened may have said this, i believe the majority do not support this view.
what i believe is that there may have been manipulation in the stock market so that HBOS was sold at a reduced price and with undue haste.
in reference to your other point, would you not agree that the british establishment would do everything in their power to maintain the union which has been stated this many times. WHY and HOW.
the article in the washington times by tom gallagher was a put down of scotlands people, heritage and the SNPs leadership, and it was not until i found out that he was a bradford prof. that i it began to make sense.
is the washington times the only paper that would publish his article. ?
with regards conspiacies involving the UK goverment, would you deny that the UK goverment do not use dirty tactics.
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#246 brigadierjohn
Your anxiety is plain for all to see. Three posts in five minutes! You are right to be worried.
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240. At 1:05pm on 21 Sep 2008, bdscotop wrote:
Surprised that Alex has not demanded Scotland?s Gold from the Bank of England (or should that be the European Bank) bought out the Bank of Scotland and make it the national bank.
------------------------------------------------------
the bank of england has no gold as the gold reserves were sold of at rock bottom price and converted to euros to help stabilise the euro which was strugglling to maintain its value.
why is it that the bank of england is the national bank of the UK goverment, should it not be named THE UK NATIONAL BANK or is it so as to promote that england is the UK, which is a view held in many countries.
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I see we now have an SNP MSP - Alex Neil - trying to persuade a group of "elite bankers" to buy out HBOS.
Most of these are ex-exeuctives of BoS.
These people will only be there for one reason and one reason only - profit.
The person who floated the idea first was the guy who set up IF. Alex Neil obviously sees this as a good opportunity to show how Scotland can lok after it's own affairs.
But he should ask why it has been pointed out that Alex Salmond is not involved, and he is a man with an economic background.
Question is - where will the 6 billion that has been quoted come from?
Intelligent Finance?
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test
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There is no deal until the HBOS shareholders agree, the board can give up what ever powers they want but the shareholders own HBOS not the board.
Lloyds Tablespoon have an offer but with the bounce back of banking shares there is a lot of anger and resistance to this offer, especially as Lloyds raised £800 million on Friday apparently selling back HBOS shares.
Barclays had 'bought ABN' remember, except it was the RBOS that got the company on the shareholders say.
The main political question remains is why did the Chancellor not instruct the FSA to suspend trading in HBOS shares on Monday as required to by the Finance Act?
I go for ignorance but I can see why other supporters of independence sense something darker - what better way to bring the Scottish economy down to the level of the City of London than by trashing one of Scotland's major financial players. It is not as if Brown and his Darling do not have a track record in this sort of chicanery - Peterhead CO2 capture project anyone?
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It is good news that another group might be interested in bidding for the BoS part of the business. This deal was all done so fast, that it is entirely appropriate that when the shareholders are asked to vote on the deal, they have all the facts and other options.
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Haliban
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I seem to be having trouble getting my post to be accepted by this benighted system, has anyone got any idea what I might be doing wrong?
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#232.
Jim_Thompson.
Again you make claims without evidence to support your views.
"The rest of the UK do not care if Scotland goes independent; only UK politicians care, such as GBroon and ADarling, because it is them that will lose out, not us."
Please could you show some evidence for this claim? I have spoken to many people from all over the United Kingdom, some support the Union, others don't. I feel that there are many, possibly a majority who would support the Union. Perhaps more if the English were given a Parliament.
Also Labour would remain the Government with or without the Scottish Labour MP's. With Scotland out of the picutre then Labour can finally admit to having a right wing agenda and really reach out to England.
Plus are you not from Northern Ireland? I would have thought that the Irish from the Republic and Northern Ireland would be watching the Scottish Nationalists quite closely? After all some Irish still want their country to be whole and an Independent Scotland may be their opportunity to get what they want. If I support an United Ireland I know I would personally wait till Scotland gets Independence before I make my move.
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I fear too many of us are behaving like Little Scotlanders. BoS merged with Halifax to protect itself against unfriendly takeovers by foreign giants. Any return to an "independent" BoS would make it immediately vulnerable again. It's just laughable to suggest the BoS could operate in a vacuum, without getting embroiled in every international get-rich-quick scam going, or being just too small to compete.
What should really worry us are the signs, already apparent, that the Mr Bigs of banking are saying "It's okay boys, the mugs have bailed us out - no need to worry about short-selling or dodgy overseas investments. We are the only ones who understand them."
Everyone is too worried about personal situations (quite rightly) to start demanding legal action against the banking leaders whose personal and corporate greed caused this mess, and all the repercussions down the line - most of which we haven't seen yet.
Has anyone resigned? Has anyone been prosecuted? Why not? These are the questions we should be asking.
I too am saddened that a proud Scottish name could go under. Add it to all the whisky giants, the hotel chains, almost anything you like that we older folks grew up with as Scottish institutions, and they are all gone.
Open any successful business and you will receive lucrative offers to sell out. Scottish firms have done it to others for generations. Well, it works in reverse... only the price is knock-down and the alternatives are often nil.
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interesting that three of my posts relating to new labours record on child poverty are not even been sent to the moderators and are not showing in the comments.
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It is also true, as has now been recognised in the US and here that short selling, while legitimate in an efficient market, in a febrile market is a heaven sent opportunity by unscrupulous operators to spread ill founded rumours to temporarily deflate a share price and make a killing. With the market swinging wildly at every new horror story tens of millions were available to be made.
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It is clear that with Scotland so dependent on Financial Services for high-end employment that it should be regulated with this very much in mind; hence the need for a Scottish regulator.
Such a regulator would take a view of risk similar to my experience of DTI Insurance regulation in the 80’s and 90’s, which recognised the fallibility of management, and the weaknesses in the market mechanism. Much of this was all swept aside in the last ten years in the US and in London, in the mistaken belief that the market would regulate itself.
We now see a small group of city “high fliers” (a few thousand) becoming multi-millionaires on a ¼ point cut on the deals they are making, and earning, even last year, Billions in bonuses.
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Control of taxation in Scotland would allow a CT relaxation in return for a more conservative national risk position by the Scottish Regulator
As someone said earlier, a more cogent case for Independence one could not find
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#267 brigadierjohn
Please try to act like a man and stop betraying your fear.
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The Haliban as the Halifax directors and managers were called in Edinburgh when Halifax took over the BoS finally did for the company. Knowing some of the individuals who were at the Halifax at the time I am not surprised by the turn of events.
This was a classic example, just as GA before it, where a Scottish Company internationally renowned for its excellence in governance was taken by an economically more powerful but management lite predator.
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They HBOS, repossessed my house when I had 15,000 left to pay and they pocketed the £50,000 and aided my family's homelessness - good riddance!
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My new-found ability to raise the dead may well be marketable. Has anyone got a number for Gordon Brown or HBoS? But how sad to be resurrected, only to find that nobody recognised you. Or paid the slightest attention to your excitable claims.
The New Testament would be a very short read if Lazarus had said: Dead? Me? No, I was just off on a huff again.!
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Some interesting reports in the Observer today: Mass poll shows Labour wipeout across country and Glenrothes byelection is neck and neck, poll finds.
To quote the latter, which puts Labour and the SNP level on 43% each for Glenrothes:
The survey, published with Labour's conference underway at Manchester, also revealed a lack of confidence in Gordon Brown, who is MP for a nearby constituency.
When asked how they would vote if the Glenrothes byelection was a vote of confidence in him as prime minister, 44% of those questioned chose the SNP, compared with 41% for Labour.
The poll asked who had the best answers to Scotland's problems, with the SNP scoring 36% while Labour's rating was 17%.
I notice that the Glenrothes polling was done on Wednesday. I wonder how the subsequent takeover of HBOS will affect the vote?
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#hadrian's wall
I would like to deploy a hulabaloo argument and ask for you to tell me when it was disclosed that Frank Roy was the campaign manager. I don't seem to remember that, funny eh! I think you will find the media have it, as usual, gloriously wrong!
Only 6 people, you should have seen the amount of food wasted! All them starving children in the world too.
It was even Scottish produce.
x
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#267.
SKaufman.
Of course and when the Eurorean Union destroys 10 percent of their fruit to increase prices that is not food waste?
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Impeach_Blair and Vote_Nat
The usual reason that posts don't appear is that you have included the symbol & (it needs to be specially coded to appear).
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Yes I did have one in S+P
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Thanks Oldnat
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#267SKaufman
Have you written to the Telegraph to tell that they are wrong? Honest people here would like to know.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/labour/2989669/Labours-Glenrothes-by-election-chief-Frank-Roy-walks-out.html
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Brigadier
your new found ability is i fear more a burden than a benefit. Hopeflly it is a one off.
The point made about HBOS is a good one. We live in an era of globalisation, whether we like it or not. I think much of what is written about HBOS is well intended but ultimtely governments are limited in what can be done in the global market.
What is really important is to grow new Scottish business, become a more enterprising culture. We are not as good at this as we might think.
We should be encouraging new business as a priority, this generates wealth and prosperity. More investment in enterprise and education. Much more important than car park charges or removing tolls.
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269. oldnat
Impeach_Blair and Vote_Nat
I have also found that a comment can fail to appear if it does not contain matching tags.
For example: you start with b or strong and do not close with \b or \strong.
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Northhighlander
That is complete nonsense. Governments can and do protect strategic industry all the time, what do think is happening in the States right now. Spain has protected its power industry and so has France. In fact there aren’t very many countries I can think of that haven’t.
And that was the thrust of the recent Gavin McCrone report on Farm subsidies and CAP. He and his team were appalled that the UK Government had submitted to the EU their free market solution to CAP and the ending of farm subsidy in 2013 without any consultations with any of the devolved administrations in NI, Scotland or Wales on the impacts in their spheres, and without any apparent consideration of security of supply or for that matter food-miles.
So much for AS picking a fight, they do it without even thinking - incredible.
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Northhighlander
I should say I do agree with your final paragraph, and so does the Scottish Government, What are Alex Neil, Jim Mather, and John Swinney doing right now, in respectively Scotland, the States, and Hong Kong.
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Looks like a blogger on NR has found the calculator that Crash Gordon uses.
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#273 northhighlander
Agree with you about encouraging business, enterprise and education as a priority. On that subject you might be interested in looking at the World Bank ease of doing business index. The UK (no separate Scottish figures I'm afraid) comes in 6th worldwide, and 8th for starting a business. Pretty good, but room for improvement.
Incidentally I note that New Zealand is 2nd overall and 1st for the ease of starting a business - how I wish that we could get a good dose of the same can do positivity that I remember from my time there! My overriding impression of Kiwis was that they work hard at making good ideas succeed, rather than scratching around for reasons why they might fail. Very refreshing!
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273. At 7:33pm on 21 Sep 2008, northhighlander.
allthough we live in an age of globilisation, goverments can introduce controls, as shown by the decition to suspend short selling, allthough it was to late in the case of HBOS.
as to your car parking at hospitals, it was a tax on the sick and their visitors and NHS workers but not the administrators.
as to the bridge tolls, did you complain when the tolls on the other bridges in scotland were abolished, or is it only now that the SNP abolished the toll on the forth and tay bridges that you are doing so.
the labour lib dem pact in the last parliament, did the east of scotland a social injustice by not abolishing the forth and tay tolls at the same time as all the other bridge tolls.
in the case of the forth road bridge, when it was originaly opened and tolls imposed, it was stated that the tolls would only be in place untill the original outlay plus future maintainance was obtained. this did not happen and it was just being used as another way of obtaining money from the public and local businesses that required to use the bridge, hence increasing business costs.
i do agree with you that scotland requires to encourage new business ideas and enterprises, which i am sure that the SNP are all to well aware of, as they appear to be trying to balance social justice and business support.
businesses are required to provide jobs for the population of scotland so that not so many are dependent on state support, only then can scotland can properly progress the social welfare of the scottish population.
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277. At 8:02pm on 21 Sep 2008, Roll_On_2010'
to true
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Encouraging new, successful business start-ups requires more than just pretty words and 'initiatives' from the state. It requires a cultural shift away from the failed doctrines of inward investment worship and veneration of the 'diaspora'. These are third world attitudes, useless for a developed country.
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#281 Anaxim
"These are third world attitudes, useless for a developed country."
Whow! I would think that those in the developing world would take great offence at that statement. Since these people strive to get out of poverty but are restricted by their politicians who are corrupted by foreign political involvement. I take great offence that someone from these isles who believe that they are better than them just because they have modern conveniences.
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Anaxim
"It requires a cultural shift away from the failed doctrines of inward investment worship and veneration of the 'Diaspora' ".
"Just pretty words"
Two quotes from your 281 so make your pretty words into something constructive - what are your proposals?
Please articulate in a way that has the potential to be implemented either by the fiscally limited Scottish Government or by a combination of Scots and Westminster, assuming Westminster deigns to listen and engage – which so far they have not.
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At last HBOS...justice... for charging Joe public...Nae...robbing Joe public of £39.00 every time we are overdrawn or miss a standing order. Everything comes to him that waits.
The world is in turmoil...don't waste sympathy on thieving institutions like banks.
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HBOS is going to run an run as several factors are begining to see the light. It is becoming increasingly likely that the HBOS fiasco could have been averted had the government decided to act in time. The Government could have saved HBOS and there is no point in saying it is not the Goverment's place to do so as they did so for Northern Rock. It looks like there is a possibility that some of the management at HBOS were in on the murder from some time.
The result of course is that a medium sized bank has picked up a much larger and richer one for peanuts (if the deal goes through) which is pretty hard to swallow.
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#213 Dick-Whittington
An interesting view.
However, - and no disrespect intended - the level of harm to the public interest caused by the activities of bankers and city speculators who, with the aid of a friendly government operating in league with them, have committed the grandest of grand thefts and their getting away with it.
As you said, this crisis has been coming for a long time and many people saw it. So why did the politicians not do something about it?.
Many ordinary public citizens seen this coming from several years back, but it was ignored by those who are/were in the position to do something about it.
So, I believe we do need continual oversight of their procedures, otherwise the same will happen again and again, they get wealthier, even when their banks fail they get wealthier, and the public picks up the tab.
As someone once said - "the easiest way to rob a bank is to set one up".
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#230 oldnat
I see that you got your teeth into the toxic sludge that I directed you to. Arresting, isn't it?
In concluding my remarks on the subject of the NED, I should mention that I sympathize with anyone who is or has been sceptical about this matter. I don't blame you. I remember once being buttonholed by a man from the John Birch Society at the Orange County Fair. His contention and that of the organization of which he was a member was that there was a massive global tentacular conspiracy of immense and indeed incalculable proportions against the United States. Sounds crazy. So I tried to walk away, but he wouldn't let me. What he was talking about was communism, of course. Ronald Reagan used to talk like that. Conspiracy here, conspiracy there, conspiracy everywhere. That is, as I recall, how he got to be President of the United States. He wanted to turn conspiracy upon the perceived conspirators. As has been mentioned, the National Endowment for Democracy is his creation.
The identity of the perceived conspirators may have changed, but the NED is alive and well and can be observed doing battle with what it takes to be the evil empire all over the world. To take account of its existence and of what is known about it would appear to be prudent and appropriate in view of the fact that that organization has intruded upon our space.
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#287 Deep_Thrapple
I'm currently following up the Tom Gallagher line of enquiry.
I'm finding articles by him (similar to the Washington Times stuff) all over the place.
I'm still not convinced of the NED position on Scotland as an American stance (though with no clear understanding on this yet)
As far as Gallagher is concerned, there is an interesting contrast between how he describes his research in his Bradford University profile and the polemic of his articles.
I'm extending my investigation into his political links.
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#Thomas Porter - Have you never heard of third world dumping? This where we dump our excess over subsidised goods onto the third world. Undercutting the local suppliers and driving them out of business.
This is the problem that really affects global food prices. So do we destroy it or dump it?
# Cynical Highlander
The Telegraph have been told they are talking a load of rubbish by many people i'm sure.
Once again where was it published that Frank Roy was the Campaign Manager?
x
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From The Times: Mr Salmond claimed that he would have advanced up to #100 billion of public money to safeguard HBOS's future if he had the power.
Has Salmond lost the plot? Where would he find #100bn from?! That's three times Holyrood's total budget and the equivalent to 80% of Scotland's GDP - and he wants to spend this on bailing out one company?!
The entire nat gang have truly lost all remaining grip on reality over this!
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188. "A Scot is someone who lives/works in Scotland or is related through Marriage or Blood to anyone who has done so in the past."
Er......what?
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I take it that you have all caught up with the yougov poll?
If not , I suggest you visit Guido fawkes and see for yourselves.
In these turbulent times its good to see that the Scottish people seem to know the direction in which they wish to travel!
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Brian,
All the collective hand wringing fuelled by the media just highlights how an institution that is a basically solid UK company was the weakest for the majors and it has suffered as a result. The facts are too many years of strange lending practices coupled with odd financial instruments without sensible regulation have led us here. Some of your correspondents have the misguided view that if it were Scotland it would be different, firstly it is an international market, secondly Halifax Bank of Scotland is evenly split across the UK with probably more of the company outside of the scottish region and thirdly it won't be Scotland, as businesses of the size of HBOS or RBOS are of such a size that they could significantly impact the economy. They say if the US has financial issues we catch a cold, for Scotland it would be pneumonia. Right now buckle down for a bumpy ride, Brown/Darling can save the UK and Salmond can't ride to the rescue of Scotland as they are are too insignificant in the whole game. Job losses are inevitable across the UK as lloyds will win out but I doubt much will happen before 2009 as the one level the politicans have is in removing the competition issues they can trade that with pushing job losses into 2009 and buy themselves some time. Paul
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Labour denies MP running Glenrothes by-election bid has been sacked
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Vinanglais:
I believe that I speak for many when I say, Salmond is far more capable of handling the HBOS situation then Gordon Brown and Alistar Darling. Salmond has the background experience while Gordon Brown and Alistar Darling are not economists.
There are also a few questions that should be answered. Why did Gordon Brown ban short selling after the HBOS situation? Salmond made the effort and insisted earlier that short selling should be temporay banned but did Gordon Brown listen? So far an Independent Scotland under Salmond may have prevented the situation by stopping short selling which was the main cause of the steep fall in share price, that only happened when Brown gave the go-ahead that LTSB would be allowed to aviod competation rules...
Also we have to look at the 100 billion that Brown pumped into the markets. Why wait till after the HBOS situation? Alistar Darling stated that they knew of the situation for sometime now. Why wait?
Did you witness Darlings interview? Even the experts were, not all on the same boat as Salmond but they were speaking the same 'language' but Darling ended the interview with an attack on Local Income Tax... He simply had no clue what on earth what was happening around him. I felt a tad bit sorry.
Is this the person that you believe can look after the economy?
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I wonder if Salmond going all funny in the noggin was a result of his cancelled taxpayer-funded jolly to the Ryder Cup?
Biz class flights, corporate pass, best golf in the world, meet the players events, all-expenses paid......and the only work he had to do was attend a marketing bash in a city-centre pub on the last evening.
I bet the cat got a good kicking for that!
(Apparently the bash was in the 'British pub' they have there. Ouch.)
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Thomas
I am confused, perhaps you could explain.
How could a Scottish PM ban share transactions on the London Stock Echange?
How would a Scottish PM have bailed out HBOS with Scottish taxpayers money?
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I wonder if Salmond's funny turn was linked to his cancelled taxpayer-funded trip to the Ryder Cup?
Business class flights, corporate passes, meet the players events, the best golf in the world, all-expenses paid......and the only actual work involved was attending a marketing bash in a city-centre pub (a 'British Pub' too!) on the final evening.
Ouch.
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An independent Scottish Government could force HBOS to suspend trading on their share price even if they were linked to the LSE. In addition, an independent Scotland could have taken early preventitive measures to shore up the bank to stop the share price bombing out.
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299. An independent Scottish Government could force HBOS to suspend trading on their share price even if they were linked to the LSE. Wrong. Feel free to research 'restriction of trade' regulations, for starters.
An independent Scotland could have taken early preventitive measures to shore up the bank to stop the share price bombing out. And where would Salmond have got his "#100bn" from? You agree that taking on a loan equivalent to 80% of Scotland's GDP was the right solution? That this loan alone would put Scotland in breach of EU borrowing limits is irrelevant, I suppose.
Also, could you help with this comment of yours earlier:
"A Scot is someone who lives/works in Scotland or is related through Marriage or Blood to anyone who has done so in the past."
So when a German/Italian/American/etc. merely takes a job in Scotland, they are, by your definition, a Scot?
Equally, if a German/Italian/American/etc. married another German/Italian/American/etc. who had previously worked in Scotland, then they would both be Scots?
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BrianSH
What mechanism could a Scottish PM use to suspend trading on the LSE of a company having at least an equal share of its activity in England, bearing in mind that company is bound by the rules of the said London Stock Exchange.
What early prevention measures could have been taken to shore up the price?
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It's not been agreed by HBOS shareholders yet and they should reject the 'deal' because their shares are worth more than Lloyds TSB are offering and would eventually have recovered.
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#276 impeachblair: Your short post stopped me in my tracks and made me think: Yes, what ARE messrs Neil, Mather and Swinney doing in Scotland, USA and Hong Kong?
I preferred Mr Neil in his Mr Nasty guise, when he was a brutal sloganiser. Now his attempts at being a smiling Mr Reasonable make him look even more sinister. He seems to be on a financial fantasy trip. The used car trade's loss was the SNP's.... er, gain?
Mr Mather is one of these guys who seems to have achieved guru status by saying little and doing less. These are traits he should develop. But sorry, he lacks either the gravitas or the razzmatazz to cut it in the States.
Mr Swinney? Well, I think he's probably a nice chap, really. But there always seems to be something pleading about him. Pleading for credibility?
I'm happy to accept that all three are honest, dedicated, well-meaning and filled with belief. But I couldn't rally to their call, and I wouldn't back them with my own or my company's money.
You will point out that "the other lot" are just as poor. I agree. But the emissaries of Her Britannic Majesty (ie UK figures) still carry more international clout than unknown wannabees.
If I'm proved wrong, I will grovel.
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Individual exchanges have the ability to stop trading on individual stocks if they become too volitile. This is simply common sense, allowing the traders to return at a later time with a cool head.
Tokyo SE did this several times during the Asian recession. The Moscow SE was turned off twice last week, first for falling too fast, then for gaining too fast.
I don't see why this wasn't applied to the LSE and NYSE last week.
Reluctant Expat - Yes, if they think themselves Scots! I'm sure your appauled that an 'arch-nat' like myself is more welcoming of other cultures and the right of people to move in and out of a nation and nationality than your limited perspective. Perhaps you should become more progressive in your old age!
I'm sure that wherever you are now resident you consider yourself, in effect a member/contributor to/of that nation, if an expatriot.
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northhighlander:
BrianSH has explained one part.
"How would a Scottish PM have bailed out HBOS with Scottish taxpayers money?"
I am struggling to find the words to answer your question. I do not know if an Independent Scotland would be rich or poor, poorly managed or managed well. If we were Independent long ago the situation would be very different today for us. Well let me see, the European Central Bank has made funds available for struggling banks/financial companies. Resources would have to come from somewhere and like I said I am not going to presume that an Independent Scotland is going to be really wealthy. Scotland may have to borrow from somewhere to put into the money markets.
The main point was why did Brown hold off this little 100 billion cash injection till after the HBOS fiasco? After that little cash injection shares rose by quite alot and HBOS would have recovered. If Scottish Interests were first then surely Brown would have made his move sooner?
I have a feeling that one or two Unionists will make some type of petty attack against parts of what I wrote. The reason I wrote that, 'I do not know if an Independent Scotland would be rich or poor, poorly managed or managed well.' is because we simply do not know how an Independent Scotland would have been like, it could have went bad, it may have went well. I have confidence in Scotland and her leaders etc etc but again we should all be sensible and assume that Scotland may not have been in the financial position but of course not exactly in the s**t simply because we were out of the Union.
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"A Scot is someone who lives/works in Scotland or is related through Marriage or Blood to anyone who has done so in the past."
Does that work the other way? You know, if a Scottish person lives or works in England do they automatically become English in perpetuity. Plus their wife and kids?
So Chris Hoy is English?
Cool.
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Well it looks like our Iain is performing well for his Westmidden masters.
He claimed the SNP was "working actively" to see David Cameron become the next prime minister, and were using the Scottish Parliament to "let Scotland down, when we know we could use it to raise Scotland up."
Iain I guess that's why people turned out by the truckload to support your party in Glasgow East.
I don't think Cameron needs anymore help, NuLabour are working hard to ensure he becomes PM in 2010. Not only in Scotland but in England as well. In fact the best weapon the Tories have is Crash Gordon.
Facebook Group Comes to Gordon's Aid
A NuLabour blogger thought he was being helpful by setting up a group on FACEBOOK called WE DON'T WANT A LEADERSHIP ELECTION.
He hadn't reckoned on the fact that it would be instantly supported by Tories. Indeed, he was so horrified that he has now closed the group and you have to be invited to join it ... which kind of defeats the object of setting it up in the first place. This interwebby thing is difficult to control, isn't it?
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Reluctant-Expat:
Of course, Britain paid 100 billion and you expect Scotland to be in the same boat? Britain, as a whole, has more interests to look after in the financial, banking etc etc
Why would Scotland have to fork out 100 billion for her part? Where on earth did you get that figure for Scotland?
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The nats are all over the shop today, aren't they!
Utter madness from Salmond down!
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I'm sure your appauled that an 'arch-nat' like myself is more welcoming of other cultures and the right of people to move in and out of a nation and nationality than your limited perspective.
You say that now. You won't be saying that if Scottish independence becomes a success and you get swamped by Eastern Europeans, Somalians, Nigerians and other exciting diverse cultures eager to share in your bounty. You'll be like the Irish. Restricting nationality for even the wives of their own citizens if they're not native born.
The trouble with immigrants and indeed all voters is that you can never rely on them. Look at Labour. They thought they had Scotland sewn up for a thousand year socialist Reich and look what happened. They can't even hold on to constituencies in Glasgow where the average lifespan is something akin to Gabon. Their natural constituents if you like.
Same with the SNP. They aspire to independence but more than that they aspire to a 1000 year Reich of their own with King Alex at the helm. Popping off all over the world in his own jet to puff out his chest at the UN and the EU. Ooooooh, it'll be great. We'll have all this oil. It'll be fantastic.
Yeah. For about four years until Labour re-establishes itself by promising to squander all that oil money today. Right now. On you. Vote for us.
And you just know that's what will happen. And you just know that the Scottish voters will go for it.
Well I do any way. That's why I left. Not going to be around for that one. No sirreee Bob.
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Has nobody pointed out the ying and yang of Scottish Banking yet?
RBS was used to launder the money given to Scotland when it went bankrupt after the Darien adventure. And now, full circle, we have the BoS as the canary signalling the bankrupcy of the UK.
What is it with Scots dominated governments eh? Europe had better hope Scotland never becomes independent and puts a Scot in as head of the ECB otherwise it'll be on a hat-trick.
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#288 oldnat
Good luck.
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Sorry people still don't understand how a scottish pm could suspend share dealing in the londn stock exchange.
Nobody sems to have an answer. I can only imagine that this is because an answer doesn't exist because it can't happenand will bring to the fore other unthought about issues relating to independance
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U9461192
And was it Scots who brought about the present global banking turmoil?
Or - quite the reverse - wasn't it sharp practices and factors entirely at odds with the renowned Scottish reputation for sound banking?
An inconvenient truth for you own scornful philosophy???
Never mind.
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Seems to me that the contributions on this thread seem to be more ill-informed and partisan than usual.
All political parties try to make political capital out of any situation, but the more extreme SNP loyalists need to take a step back from suggesting that an independent Scotland would automatically have had appropriate regulatory practices in place.
One of the reasons that this particular financial mess has spread to institutions like the BoS, is that the neo-liberal philosophy which underpins the OECD and the World Bank, supported deregulation of the finance industry, and allowed/encouraged retail banks to become involved in the dodgier aspects of the business.
Unionists who suggest that somehow, the financial crisis is an argument against independence for a small country, need to recognise that the crisis developed under the current constitutional structure, so is a non-argument in the debate over self-government.
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#311 - U9461192
Would the Yin and Yang of Scottish banking not be more attuned with the fact that the current situation consists of a still successful and very profitable Scottish Bank (BoS) which merged with an English Building Society concern? And that building society concern is where the current problems emanate from?
There could certainly be parallels with the Union there.
It is indeed a bit like the Union. After the Union with England of 1707, Scotland entered an economic depression, far worse than anything caused by Darien. This was generally due to the higher taxes Scotland was now paying towards the crippling English National Debt which Scotland now had a share of.
As I said the parallels with the Union are far too uncomfortable to contemplate.
PS The last time the UK went "bankrupt" (properly bankrupt though), wasn't Denis Healey the Chancellor?
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Impeachblair asks what my economic proposals are, as an alternative to the inward investment and diaspora worship which have been failing Scotland for decades.
It's pretty simple; I'd do the exact opposite. I'd talk up overseas and intra-UK acquisitions and expansion at every opportunity. I'd not go to America to beg for pennies from the big American business boys. I'd make it clear that I would expect no favours from the 'diaspora'.
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PS The last time the UK went "bankrupt" (properly bankrupt though), wasn't Denis Healey the Chancellor?
To listen to Labour and the SNP you'd think the country went bankrupt under Thatcher. But now that you mention it I believe it was Labour who brought the nation to bankruptcy a mere thirty years ago.
And gosh. Here we are again. No wonder everybody has turned against them. Once was unfortunate but twice, well.... It's looking as though Labour is the problem isn't it.
And projected borrowing of the order of 80 - 90bn this year apparently. 6% plus of GDP and only three quarters of 'negative growth'. Imagine what that figure will look like with four quarters of negative growth in 2009/2010.
We are sooooo doomed.
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And was it Scots who brought about the present global banking turmoil?
Careful Dougie, you're buying into the Labour canard that doubling UK national debt and employing one million additional non-productive drones at top-dollar in no way affected our ability to deal with 'events'. Nope, if only the yanks hadn't flogged us these dodgy securities ourbanks could have continued to borrow insane amounts of cash and keep house prices inflated here in the UK till the rapture.
Or - quite the reverse - wasn't it sharp practices and factors entirely at odds with the renowned Scottish reputation for sound banking?
Well that is something you'll have to take up with our Scottish ex-PM, our Scottish PM and ex-chancellor and our present Scottish chancellor. I see no evidence of this renowned Scottish reputation for sound banking there. Do you?
An inconvenient truth for you own scornful philosophy???
Do you think RBS paying top dollar for some Dutch bank just as Barclays walked away at the onset of this 'credit crunch' was sound Scottish banking? Seriously?
There are a lot of reputations in tatters hereabouts but I wouldn't be over-egging the Halifax dimension. It pales into insignificance to the financial brutality of this Scots dominated government.
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#318
Yes my point being that Denis Healey was was not Scottish, which kind of puts "Scottish" financial brutality of this "Scottish dominated" government somewhat into the shade :-) Then there was "devaluation" in 1967, under Callaghan and Wilson and the Three day week under Heath and Barber in 1974. Tories and Labour, one of a kind? Most asuredly.
We could even go into the background of the 1987/88 Lawson/Thatcher "boom" which laid the seeds of the 1992 recession and the decisions and pressures of the late 1980s which led to Black Wednesday and the destruction of the myth that the Tories were the ones with all the financial acumen. How misplaced.
#319
"There are a lot of reputations in tatters hereabouts but I wouldn't be over-egging the Halifax dimension."
Oh I would.
HBOS being the perfect Anglo-Scottish amalgam. The perfect metaphor, in other words.
One part profitable and doing extremely well, profitable and run on sound principals. The other not being so sound and structurally weak. The larger, more vainglorious and dominant partner rendering the smaller, nimbler and more profitable part asunder. In such a sorry tale, it doesn't take a genius to work out which part is which.
And then there is Northern Rock too - that being another fine non-Scottish institution which found itself with a sorry ending....
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Brain
It is interesting that a backlash seems to be starting now.
Lloyds TSB shareholders are unhappy at the part of the deal which involves dividends being paid as share instead of cash. Lloyds were always a good cash dividend share. So Lloyds TSB shareholders may vote against the deal.
If HBOS shares are worth 83% of Lloyds shares at takeover day, then HBOS is undervalued and many of the HBOS shareholders may vote against it.
Lloyds TSB shareholders don't want the 'toxic' debts of HBOS, so they may vote against the deal.
The deal is not done and dusted until the shareholders vote.
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Thomas,
I have no faith in Brown or Darling or anything tory or liberal. Equally I have no doubt that Salmond and his cabinet or come to think of it the welsh assembly can only be effective to a certain level. Leadership is something this country needs, we have regional capability but that's as far as it goes.
Salmond can do nothing but lobby to minimise the damage to the local economy as we would expect him to do. The scale of funds needed to provide government aid to stop this are not within the scottish remit ignoring regional structure, its just that the economy based on 6/7m people could not afford it.
Thomas, we need stability but we also need leadership you might have it regionally but our country needs this nationally, chances of getting it, doubtful and I would expect a pre Christmas blood bath.
Consider one more thing, if the US congress don't vote Paulson the money he wants stating they can't afford it then the ripples will be felt far more widely and it will be a winter of discontent for the whole country.
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I have carefully read, and laughed occasionally, at all the various posts.
The point is that regulation is intended to mitigate the worse excesses of the market, and so professional, successful, regulation would, de facto, have prevented the current problem.
I notice the mayhem in Norwegian banks, and Swedish, and Danish and Irish and Austrian and Latvian and…. etc as a result of the latest crisis- not being familiar with their regulatory regimes, I am guessing, but the absence of recent news suggests they are doing the job they are paid to do.
Oldnat is as always wise, Anaxim, sigh, fulminates but presents only negatives, (seek inward investment but not visit financiers in the States and Hong Kong??) and not a constructive way forward.
Others rail in various directions, the cabinet being 20% Scottish makes them all banking experts, or even competent….. well there might be some logic there somewhere, if one searches very very hard.
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