Fine words, noble sentiments
In the end, then, a clear victory. As expected, Iain Gray sustained a comfortable lead in the elected members section: MPs, MSPs and MEPs.
But, crucially, he also defeated Cathy Jamieson by a decent margin in the section of the ballot reserved for grassroots party members.
As billed, here and elsewhere, Ms Jamieson came top in the union and affiliates sector - but only just.
He has an evident mandate - as does Johann Lamont who defeated Bill Butler in the contest for deputy leadership.
Both spoke well. Johann Lamont contrived to sound both droll and indignantly determined over Labour's current travails.
Iain Gray said he was out to put things right, promising policy initiatives in areas like knife crime, housing, skills training and devolution where he backed the Calman process.
George Foulkes was moved to suggest that the election of Mr Gray reminded him of Tony Blair's victory: with, he forecast, similar prospects for a transformation of the party north of the Border.
Blair putsch
But, outside Labour Party HQ, the atmosphere suddenly seemed somewhat chillier.
Precisely as folk were queuing up to offer congratulations to the new Scottish boss, news was emerging from London of further MPs suggesting that Gordon Brown should face a leadership challenge.
It's all inchoate, imprecise: so far, those querying Mr Brown insist they don't have a particular challenger in mind.
But it's eerily reminiscent of the "putsch" against Tony Blair when junior ministers voiced their disquiet - with the exception that, to date, the names this time are rather more junior.
How does Iain Gray cope with that? How to posit a brave new future for Scottish Labour - when the party at Westminster, the Government at Westminster, is facing internal squalls?
The only way, one MSP suggested to me quietly, is for the party in Scotland to focus upon its own fight - the fight against the SNP - and to detach itself to some degree from the conflict at Westminster.
Certainly, Iain Gray favours new departures. In a key section, he said the 2007 manifesto should be set aside - with the focus being upon preparing new policies for the next Holyrood elections. Translation: we lost, get over it.
Secure ground
He also said the by-election defeat in Glasgow East should be absorbed - and the lessons turned into progressive advance for the party in keeping with the authentic interests of the people.
Fine words, noble sentiments: hard to deliver.
Personally, I thought he was on less secure ground with a section which particularly delighted the Labour audience.
That was when he attacked Alex Salmond personally.
To be more precise, he sought to contrast himself with Mr Salmond, suggesting the first minister had pursued an elitist path - St Andrews, economics, the Scottish Office, the Royal Bank, Westminster - while he, Iain Gray, had been a teacher and worked to combat poverty overseas.
Labour liked that section because they loathe Mr Salmond - and nurture the hope that he's personally vulnerable to attack on the grounds of arrogance.
Snag for that theory is that Mr Salmond is also hugely popular - and markedly better known than any of his Labour rivals.
Plus he scarcely fits the elitist badge Mr Gray was trying, by implication, to pin upon him.
Still, this could be intriguing.
I'm 
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~59~RS~)
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"The only way, one MSP suggested to me quietly, is for the party in Scotland to focus upon its own fight - the fight against the SNP - and to detach itself to some degree from the conflict at Westminster."
It's too late. Labour have already lost the argument in Scotland.
The rout at Glasgow East - soon to be repeated at Glenrothes - should have told Labour it's over...but their arrogance knows no bounds.
A fifer, a drummer and the carrier of a tattered banner limping off the battlefield isn't the ideal moment to promote the drummer to the rank of General.
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Congratulations Iain Gray... if you don't get whipped too badly in 2011 you might have the honour of being the first leader of a truly autonomous Scottish Labour.
Better get to work immediately though, there's only 119 hours and counting until FMQs!
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And what did Mr Gray do to alleviate poverty in Scotland? Is he altogether happy with the dreadful health record, which decades of Labour domination, seem to have scarcely dented?
He may have served in the classroom, but that hardly leads to a good apprenticeship to dealing with matters of importance to creating jobs. Or for dealing with questions in the Holyrood chamber. It may lead to explaining policy (when they get some) to his MSPs, but Jack McC did not exactly shine in that quarter either. -when is he due to head to Malawi?
One good thing - he seems to recognise that they lost in 2007! But will the rest?
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The political headlines will be dominated by Brown's future up and until he goes. Iain Gray's victory is completely overshadowed by this. His links to Brown will do him no good, and the idea he will develop a separate Scottish strategy are false. For one thing, he is not the new Scottish Labour Leader. That's Brown. Gray only heads up their MSPs.
The idea that MPs, MSPs etc will somehow unite around Gray is preposterous. Ask Jack or Wendy how much support they had from their MPs. If Gray does anything to annoy the MPs, he will be carpeted like a naughty schoolboy, just like his predecessors.
Business as usual in the SP next week I suspect.
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None of the three candidates were very formidable and the two deputy candidates even less so. In debating terms and having to think on their feet, they are not Salmond's equal. The only hope is foe Labour to develop policies whivh are exclusively Scottish and exclusively Labour. New Labour never really caught on in Scotland ( not enough stockbrokers and barristers per head of population) but Labour was a known, trusted and respected identity, thought to have the interests of the working man at its core.
Ignore whatever happens south of the border with Brown. Focus on education cuts and contradictory messages from Salmond, which Labour's disarray has allowed to go unnoticed. Be actively pro-union. Labour came from the unions and in more difficult times they need to show that they are on the side of the people who keep this country going. Ditch the PFI baggage and all the private tender nonsense which always ends up costing more anyway. Speak a language the people want and need and this will balance any Salmond vaudeville. And Scottish Labour MPs- if you can't be supportive of your Holyrood colleagues, don't say anything at all. Stop talking down devolution and scoffing at more powers for Holyrood- that just sounds like more of the patronising "it'll never work" rhetoric that lost Labour the 2007 election.
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I already do not like Iain Gray.
Gray has already started taking shots at Salmond, where is the unity? The Tories and the Lib Dems have begun working with the Nationalists to create a better Scotland. Scottish Labour have done and may well continue to whine and refuse to cooperate and will bring nothing to Scotland.
Disappointing but I hope Gray does work with the Nationalists and Labour grows up a bit.
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Such a shame Mr Gray decided to include the 'elitism' of Mr Salmond in his acceptance speech.
Didn't Mr Gray attend the fee-paying George Watson's in Edinburgh after Inverness Academy?
Rather a silly move Mr Gray, in fact you'd be far better telling us hoi polloi about your new policies that try to undermine Mr Salmond's character. Speak about shooting yourself in the foot ...
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Brian,
Usaul comments from the regulars on this board and not surprised by them. I don't know enough about Gray to say whether he will be any good as a leader.
However, very disappointed at his remarks about AS, cheap and low. We need better than this, like AS or loathe him he is a first class politician.
If Gray wants to get anywhere he should attack the policies not the man, there is enough in them to give the Nationalists a hard time without resorting to jibes at the expense of the FM
Best Wishes,
Wiliam1957
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Ha ha ha ha
Brown has just sacked another party hack for daring to suggest Labour need a leadership election. What's he going to do? Sack them all? Soon he'll be sitting in the bunker on his own...
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He couldn't even stop "taxi" McLetchie taking Edinburgh Pentlands from him! How on earth is he meant to stop Salmond? Especially since he is another Brown acolyte, just as things go from bad to worse for our supposed "Prime Minister"!
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When people in France look back to the days of the Third Republic and at how disastrous the pre-war left-wing government there is considered by many to have been, one little-known detail can be detected which the newly-elected leader for Labour in the Scottish Parliament has reminded me of by calling attention, so I gather, to his former profession. There were an awful lot of school teachers and the like in the National Assembly at that time.
Am I suggesting that a PGCE or a Dip Ed are not suitable or terribly impressive qualifications for an aspiring head of government? You may very well think so, but I couldn't possibly comment, Jack.
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#10
Yes, sack that lot of the blairite tripe, its not their party,never has been and never will be.
Conference amendment one, page-one, line-one , the re-introduction of clause 4
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Iain who ?
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The BBC claims Gray is "confident, sharp, decisive, slick, quiet and unassuming".
But unfortunately forr him everybody knows he's just a puppet for Labour at Westminster... and the people of Scotland have had enough of that, thank you very much!
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This blog seems saturated with anti-labour wannabe SNP supporters. Not quite able to openly support the idea of an independent Scotland. Iain Gray has been elected at a crucial time in Scottish politics: leading up to the referendum on independence. If he fails to persuade the people of Scotland of the futility and cost of an independent nation, if he fails to expose the failings of the SNP argument for devolution then history will probably not recognise his presence. If, as I think he will, through common sense and practical examination, demonstrate that Scotland on its own, without increasingly diminishing oil revenues, has only a poor future to look forward to, he may well be the saviour of our country.
Look no further than the past strife in Northern Ireland. What ignorant fool can believe that a unilateral call for independence after a succesful SNP referendum will result in a peaceful settlement?
The SNP are, and have always been, blissfully unaware of the tragic consequences of devolution.
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A piece of whimsey.This afternoon I visited Iain Gray's Wikipedia entry.Where recently it had made mention of his past support for the Sandanista Revolutionaries in Nicaragua,it had now been amended (presumably by the hand which updated the entry to include his election to the Leadership of the Labour Group in Parliament, in the process mis-spelling his name) to ommit this detail.Presumably somone in Team Gray hade ajudged this former Leftist enthusiasim to be "off message".A return visit to the popular Site a few minutes ago confirmed that the entry had been restored to it's former glory.
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brian please could you explain why the headlines at the beeb are still calling gray
"leader of scottish labour party" etc etc
how many times do we have to say it.
there is no scottish labour party
there is therefore no leader of the scottish labour party.
whats wrong with leader of the labour group in the scottish parliament.........
i have only seen this in the beeb site described as that being technically what he is.
there is nothing technical about it thats what he ACTUALLY is.........
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#16 jusmasel
Less of the "wannabe" SNP supporters thank you! I'm a fully paid-up member and I openly and passionately believe in an independent Scotland.
No amount of ridiculous scare stories by daft wannabe Unionist supporters is going to convince me otherwise.
How many times are you people going to to trot out these these absurd scare stories about "civil war", "Northern Ireland" or "increasingly diminishing oil revenues"?
It's just a little bit of a giveaway that despite the oil revenues "running out" the Treasury would "strongly resist" Scotland making any attempt to claim them, according to Brian Taylor!
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how come the beeb can get the leader of the snp group in the westminster parliament right but they cant get leader of labour group in the scottish parliament right.
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fix fix fix
oh whatever....role on FMQ....Something tells me your going to regret slaging of FMQ.....
One thing I will agree on Ian Grays speech.... Scotland does need s FM who will lift Scotland up and feels pasionately about Scotland.......OH LOOK IT ALREADY HAS ONE.......what a numpty
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Well Gray won through as the pundits predicted - but here's my prediction - Labour would have been much better off if they had selected Kerr!
He has much more character than Grey, he is a better performer in the chamber and he would be much better against Salmond at FMQs.
The only bit Labour got right with their vote was to select Johann Lamont as Deputy Leader - a fiery beast at the best of times and more than able to take on all-comers.
Lets see how they all do in the next few months but I'm not holding my breath for anything great from Labour!
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Good news,guys
Brown's man pushed into place in Scotland just as Brown is being pushed out the door at Westminster. No doubt we'll all soon be acquaint with the Newsnight Scotland clip in which Gordon Brewer reduces him to a quivering pulp. Iain Gray is so popular that he got knocked out of his Parliament seat by a Tory!
That takes some doing in Scotland.
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#18 karinm
I'm afraid we'll all be long gone before you get your requested explanation, so allow me to give you the real reason:
By constantly referring to "Scottish Labour"
(in a way that suggests such an organisation actually exists) the BBC is trying to counteract the widely-held and very damaging perception (for Labour) that Labour in Scotland is simply a puppet organisation of a UK political party run from London.
They believe that if you repeat a lie often enough it will be perceived as the truth.
But unfortunately for them such lies aren't working any more. The Scottish public have had their eyes opened because the people running Labour in London consistently fail to act in the best interests of their fellow Scots.
So Gray's impossible task is to convince us that he has Scotland's best interests at heart but I'm afraid no amount of pretending that a "Scottish Labour" party exists is going to persuade the not-so-stupid people of Scotland that it actually does.
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Iain Gray will struggle to retain his seat at the next election.A four percent swing to the SNP will push him out.
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#23 sneckedagain
"No doubt we'll all soon be acquaint with the Newsnight Scotland clip in which Gordon Brewer reduces him to a quivering pulp."
I remember that clip well...the twitching left eye, the persiring, the fidgetting.
But then, you can understand how Gray felt when he was get a light shone into his eyes by....(gulp!) Von Smallhausen!
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"Look no further than the past strife in Northern Ireland. What ignorant fool can believe that a unilateral call for independence after a succesful SNP referendum will result in a peaceful settlement?"
I'm sure we're all quaking at what you seem to think is the inevitable "Battle of Berwick" kicking off World War III!
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You put it kindly Brian, and no harm in that, but the attack on Alex Salmond's education and career to date may be emlematic of Iain Gray's recognition that, as yet at least, he has nothing of real substance on which to attack. Also, setting aside the old manaifesto, while trying to hold Alex Salmond to his, may not be as straightforward as he might hope.
His speech may of course reveal deep psychological unease: a recognition that he hasn't got the tools to take on Alex Salmond on economic issues. It may be a kind of subliminal appeal to his own party to recognise that fact.
Whatever, it will be interesting to see how someone whose career is so attached to supporting Gordon Brown, deals with the ongoing leadership crisis at UK level.
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24 big hulla.
thanks for that explanation as to why the beeb keep pushing the non exsistant scottish labour party.
i wish they would give it up its very annoying and also rubbish.
if they can get angus robertsons title right as snp group leader in the westminster parliament then they can get labours in the scottish parliament right.
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27 northy dinnae worry about it....
dont forget we have the nukes..........
lol
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I sit fairly neutral on independence because I have yet to see convicing economic reasons for either for or against.
I would suggest that Iain Gray asks Alex Salmond to provide solid evidence that the Scottish economy can cope with the costs of going fully independent - EXCLUSIVE of oil.
Would a federal state not be a better answer? Own laws, taxes etc but a shared responsibility for foreign affairs and defence?
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Well done Labour! Brown says he wants Gray and hey presto who do we get? Brown also wanted Wendy and look what happened to her. Gray doesn't stand a chance against Alex.
Gray will shortly be under pressure supporting lame duck Brown.
By the way how can Brown, a Labour leader, sack two Labour MP's, whilst at the same time have lunch with Thatcher today. Beggars belief.
Freedom
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#29 karinm
Your point about there being no "Scottish Labour Party" is 100% correct.
According to the Labour Party's official accounts for 2007, there are only three party officials based in Scotland (working out of an office in Glasgow) and the bulk of their salary is paid for by the Labour Party in London. That's the true extent of the Labour Party's organisational presence in Scotland.
Their problem is they have to convince the Scottish public that they have a real and substantial presence here. Since this clearly isn't the case, the best they can do is to rely on their chums in the Scottish media to perpetuate the myth of a "Scottish Labour Party". Which, as you have so rightly pointed out, they appear more than happy to do, displaying a sudden and totally inexplicable "blind spot" when it comes to reporting this one simple fact accurately.
That they are doing this, and ignoring all legitimate requests to stop doing or to explain why they're doing it, is all the proof any rational person needs that their hidden intention is to further Labour's dishonest claim of a substantial organisational presence in Scotland.
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32 neil why would you do that
please dont tell me you fell for that "its running out" one......
the oldest oil feild in the world is over 100 years old. and it isnt in the north sea.
also as extraction methods get better feilds that were previously closed are being reopened.
so why would you exclude a resource when deciding to be independent.
are you saying that 100 years down the line if we were independent and an economic crisis threatened scotland then we shouldnt be independent becaue of that.
strange logic when the uk has been through thousands of episodes of economic turmoil and yet is still there.
neil seriously what do you think is going to happen if the oil runs out?
just ask yourself what is the worst case scenario then really think about it. just now your just imagining the worst without actually saying okay what is the worst that could happen.
see when you actually come up with an answer to that your going to realise something.
let me know when that happens.
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Attacking Alex Salmond's background is a lame strategy, from the same hopeless handbook that has them attacking Tory toffs. It would be better to attack him for his centralising tendencies and draconian drinking laws, except that these are Labour's vices too.
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#32.
Why don't you explain how your Federal system would operate?
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#32 Neil_Small147
"I would suggest that Iain Gray asks Alex Salmond to provide solid evidence that the Scottish economy can cope with the costs of going fully independent - EXCLUSIVE of oil."
The SNP's plans have always been based on an independent future EXCLUSIVE of oil. The SNP existed before anyone knew there was any oil.
Clearly you're so unsure of your case that you have to set artificial rules that tries to minimise Scotland's chances of survival from the outset!
You didn't cheat at Monopoly when you were a kid, by any chance?
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Testing
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#16 and #32
Could I suggest to those disbelievers check out how the UK economy is structured.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom#Economy
Since this shows that London has only one base economy ie. banking. For those short on memory these are the people who rip off their clients and when times are bad end up being kept afloat with tax payers money.
Scotland has a varied economy just like a mixed farm when one sector is down the other keeps them going.
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Was there ever any doubt that Gray was going to win? From the moment his name came up it was obvious that like his predecesser he was being appointed by Brown.I suspect that he'll prove to be as much good as Alexander. Anyone rccommended or approved by Brown must be a nonentity to start with. Probably he, like Alexander will willingly put the Labour party and the demands of his master before the people of Scotland. I hope he lasts as long as Brown does, which I suspect wont be very long.
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"When Alex Salmond was an official in the Scottish Office I was learning to be a teacher in a tough school and a community activist in the biggest council housing scheme in Edinburgh," said Mr Gray.
"He had it easier than me"
"While he moved to the Royal Bank of Scotland I moved to Mozambique where I taught for two years in a country literally fighting for its life.
"He got a really cushie number and I had to work"
"While he spent the eighties and nineties developing the tricks of politics in Westminster, I spent them developing my values working for Oxfam."
"My values are better than his"
Mr Gray said: "We don't need a first minister whose pride is putting people down.
"Scotland needs a first minister whose passion is lifting people up."
And who would he be Mr.Gray?
Oh dear looks like another labour flop who is intent on using personalities as opposed politics to try and further his aims.
Its a dreadful shame because we do need a good opposition to go forward.
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Why do the Unionists keep bringing up the same old question what will Scotland do when the oil runs out ?I think they should ask themselves what is Westminster goin to do when the oil runs out? They need us more than we need them so can someone (unionist) please tell me and others what they`ll do.
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I watched Ian Gray's performance on TV when defending Wendy Alexander and he was absolutely dreadful so I don't know where the 'confident, sharp and decisive' comes from.
In any case I don't think it will matter - Labour have no good policy to counter the SNP's Local Income Tax - they will probably introduce a Property Tax, (another name for a wealth tax but only on property), which will bear no relation to income and will mean all the working class people who have worked their way out of poverty over the last 50 years and now live in decent houses will be expected to pay so that the Property Tax can be capped, just like the Council Tax, to protect the better off in their mansions with their enormous salaries and/or pensions and savings and the large numbers who use Council services like the rest of us will get off paying local taxes as they currently do.
Labour and the Tories before them have created the conditions which will drive Scotland to independence and they don't have the ability or the brains to recognise this.
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I really do struggle to see what difference Gray will make to the Labour cause.
He will be seen as London's man (which he undoubtably is)
He has already made a gross error of judgement by attacking Salmond on a personal level. Voters won't like that one bit I'm afraid as Salmond is popular.
Trying to make him a figure of hate just won't work.
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#43 jammykev
You've hit the nail right on the head!
The reason these Unionists are all carping on about oil "running out" is that they're terrified about how their glorious Union will survive when it does. It's always the way that the ones who are most insecure about it are the ones who never stop talking about it!
Of course, the Unionists are also worried because Scotland is blessed with an abudance of natural advantages that will make us a net exporter of energy even after the oil eventually runs out - and they will be left high and dry having to buy it from us.
So, it turns out that all the so-called "disadvantages" of living in Scotland: the wind, the rain, the stormy sea coasts, the "desolate" mountains and lochs - all these turn out to be major advantages in a world facing an energy crisis.
Maybe there's some justice in the world after all!
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"Snag for that theory is that Mr Salmond is also hugely popular "
Is he ?
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Now that the non event is over can one of the unionists out there explain why it is better to keep the union intact rather than going our differing ways.
The English must be totally sick of Scotland.
Both PM and Chancellor are Scottish and both destroyng England.
Meanwhile up here they see us progressing.
The English must be looking North for inspiration and wondering when they are going to have an English PM to look after their affairs.
They will be hoping they have their own Wee Eck to drive them forward.
Now there's a thought Alex Salmond as PM of the UK
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#47 toptable
YES
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What an embarrassing start !
Is this "I taught in a "tough" school and worked for Oxfam" drivel the best we can expect now?
A man who aspires to lead our nation, which is at the beginning of a recession,describes economics as a "dismal science" !
He then disparages the oldest university in Scotland, and the third oldest in Britain, simply, it would appear, because the First minister attended there.
And all this coming from a man who attended George Watson's college.
Did anyone read this nonsense before he came out with it?
What can you say?
"My degree's better than your degree because my degree is in a natural science at Edinburgh while your degree is in Economics from St.Andrew's.Ergo, I am better equipped to lead the country." Do you think he can possibly realise how stupid that is?
The Labour Party? RIP.
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#46
Again you make the remark about Scotland becoming a NET SUPPLIER OF ENERGY IN TERMS OF RE-NEWABLES...........Again I pose the question/ will any future re-newable energy programmes be publically owned.
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it was very interesting to see that cathy jamison was turning to congradulate iain gray before the result was declared.
stage managed. no not labour, they would not do that.
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#40 cynicalHighlander
I don't wish to be too cynical, Highlander, but just like newspapers, one shouldn't believe all one reads in Wikipedia, which after all, is written and edited by its own readers. Even then you go on to selectively misquote from it. I'd love to hear more of your views about about the mixed economy of Scotland, compared to England.
You (obviously incorrectly) say London has just one base economy - banking- and then perhaps correctly, proceed to castigate bankers.
I fully realize that in Scotland all in the garden is lovely. But however, just for the sake of our readers could you please just remind what the letters R.B.S. stand for, and the city where that organization has its headquarters???!
And regarding your comment about a single-(banking) based London economy, did you also read that London alone had FIFTEEN POINT SIX MILLION tourist visitors in 2006?
Perhaps chicken-feed in your eyes, but to some a valuable source of foreign income.
In any event, a single-product dominated economy is not in itself necessarily a bad thing - just ask the arabs!
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#51 derekbarking
Sorry, derek, I've got a "one idiot per day" cut-off point and I've already dealt with today's idiot on the previous blog topic. Come back tomorrow and you might be lucky!
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#53 regmitchell
"just for the sake of our readers could you please just remind what the letters R.B.S. stand for, and the city where that organization has its headquarters???!"
Royal Bank of Scotland's global headquarters has been at Gogarburn in the western outskirts of Edinburgh since 2005, They moved there from their historic HQ Dundas House in St Andrew's Square, Edinburgh, where they'd been located since 1825.
So, what's your point exactly?
Don't tell me you're another one of these blowhards who just opens the mouth and let's thebelly rumble without checking any facts first? We've got more than enough of them on here as it is.
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#53 regmitchell
I use Wiki as it is open source and if there is anything in there which is totally wrong one has the ability to get get it corrected.
Our financial institutions based in Edinburgh are pretty big in Europe.
15.6 million tourists divided by 10 million. mmm.
Scotland 18.5 million tourists divided by 5 million. more than twice the income per resident!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tourism_in_Scotland
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#54
I take it thats a "NO" in terms of evidence based argument then????????
Do you know...that energy is still a reserved issue...Hmmmmmm
You dont seem too be dealing with much...
in fact you just let your heart rule your head and key-type in a world of your own...
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#55,
To answer your last question first. Easy on the insults, I'm a non-combatant, just sittin' here in the sun and stumbled upon the site.
Thought my comments were rhetoric.
Thank you for the lesson regarding your R.B.S. CynicalHighlander implied that all those big bad bankers, "ripping off their clients" and "keeping afloat with tax payers money" were located in London. Obviously untrue. My point was, as if it needed explaining, is that Edinburgh hands are not entirely-blood free on the banking front, are they?
Perhaps on behalf of cynicalHighlander, you could now also answer my point about the respective mixed economies? And the total unimportantance of tourism?
Once you done that you can go home early, but for your homework, find a dictionary and look up the words "irony" and "bait".
Good fishin', y'all!
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#56 cynicalHighlander
Your figures are SIX YEARS OLD! Suggest you find another source. Score 4/10
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#56. cynicalHighlander
Why 10 million?
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The new leader for Labour in the Scottish Parliament is unveiled. Round of applause. Steps forward. Sings own praises while denigrating the most highly esteemed politician in Scotland and the one most obviously best qualified to be First Minister.
Have I got this wrong? Or has Gray got it wrong? You win the people over by stepping up to the microphone to introduce yourself by denigrating the First Minister whose immense popularity means that the people whom you are trying to win over think rather highly of him? Is it not in effect the people that you are denigrating by contemptuously dismissing their judgment of a leader who came as a blessed relief to the country after what went before.
Without pausing for breath you then go on to suggest that getting oneself a whole range of fancy qualifications that are highly relevant to the role of First Minister, such as becoming an economist, working as one as well as acquiring extensive administrative and legislative experience in two parliaments, isn't nearly as impressive as being a school teacher. Well, I mean to say. Really. Worthy though it is to be a school teacher and to do the other things that Mr Gray has occupied his time with, what kind of sense does this make?
Question. Do you think it is better to have a First Minister who is an economist or one who has taught in a secondary school? Let me think for a moment. Economist or school teacher? Teacher or economist? Is this a trick question, Miss?
Would the smart move not have been to get on the side of the people by rubbing them up the right way rather than the wrong way, winning their confidence and support and thus even possibly some credibility, which might have formed a basis for building up support for Labour? I don't know. What would I know? I'm only a school teacher.
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This is off topic but interesting regarding the SNP councillor with a Kalashnikov. Please look at what Gordon Bown and the Miliband guy are doing in these pics:
http://www.order-order.com/2008/07/into-killing-zone-kill-or-be-killed.html
As Derek Barker said, let's put those guns away.
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Banking, an invention by the Scots! Well, the savings bank and the Bank of England can be attributed easily enough!
Why did Voltaire, that often quoted frenchman, say "We look to Scotland for all our ideas of civilisation"?
It must have been because of the fat playground bully, who delights in name calling and "misleading" parliament. The play ground politics of calling someone a twonk then getting all their mates to point and laugh at their victim! One party to the argument trying to use reason, the other using embarsment to win their argument!
We were once held as the most enlightened nation on the planet. We had the belief that through fundamental reasoning and intellect, using experiences of ourselves and others, that it would be better to change things for the better.
We are now seen as a nation led by a man who takes delight in using our voice for democracy as an outlet for what he's always wanted to be, the play ground bully! Alex Salmond is a play ground bully, there is no argument against it. There is never any need to resort to the level of politics that he does, he may have been able to pull it off while in opposition! We are supposed to now look to him for leadership, a bully, what a role model!
I hope that for the sake of democracy, that Iain Gray can use his methods of what we were once known best for, enlightened thinking, to take on Alex Salmond and win the arguments! We need our future Politicians to know how to reason and come forward with ideas, not to bully and bluff!
We may all have been taken in by Alex Salmond, he's the man, the man who will stick up for us, the man who will fight for us!I've suddenly opened my eyes, i don't want that kind of man fighting my corner! I wan't to be known for coming from a country where we put Policy before PR, Reasoning before populism, Morality before bullying!
Sometimes the most popular thing, isn't the best thing! Every action we take has a counter action! Let us not all be led blindly towards the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, that blindfold is starting to slip from peoples eyes and they are seeing the SNP for what they are, a bunch of wind bags! Speak before they thing, promise before they cost!
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Re 63. SKaufman
Perhaps there's something that I'm unaware of here. Did Alex Salmond do any of the following:
- bomb Serbia?
- Invade Afghanistan?
- Invade Iraq?
- Support the killing of over 100,000 civilians?
Oh no, he called some politicians a bad name...
Then, guess what he did?....
He got his pals to laugh at some politicians....
Serious questions though?
Q1. Did Alex Salmond ever kill anybody or order anyone to be killed?
Q2. Did any Labour Party leader ever kill anybody or order anyone to be killed?
Is any further comment really needed?
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It would probably have been better for Labour, not to have an immediate constitutional row over what Grey's job actually is.
From tomorrow's Sunday Herald
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Brown and Gray......such a dull colour scheme, totally lacking in charisma or competence
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#47 - toptable
YES
Double digit leads for a party that has never previously governed is pretty conclusive.
Holyrood Constituency Vote Voting Intention: SNP 42%, Labour 26%
More than matching Labour in Westminster polls is pretty conclusive.
Westminster Voting Intention: SNP 34%, Labour 32%
Having a personal approval rating higher than all three Labour 'leadership' candidates, Tavish Scott and Annabel Goldie put together is pretty conclusive.
Who would make the best Scottish First Minister?
Alex Salmond: 41%, Annabel Goldie: 8%, Cathy Jamieson: 7%, Tavish Scott: 5%, Andy Kerr: 5% .... IAIN GRAY: 3%!
http://www.snp.org/node/14230
Info also available on The Times site (their polling data).
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#64
So because Alex Salmond has never been in the posistion to make hard choices regarding foreign intervention, that makes him the good guy?!
Was it a labour councillor who went to pakistan and put his family under real danger so that he could play with weapons that should never be looked at as a toy and a piece fun! Was it then a Labour MP who said that there was nothingwrong with this! That if we question what over countries do, we are nothing but racist! Being some one who has spend time in the army, i can assure these things cause damage to the people on both sides of the rifle!
I think further comment is needed from you, and to every person who has ever been subjected to bullying!
You are one of the worst people, an apologist for bad behaviour! Just because you are told something, it doesn't make it right or better than something else! Think for you self man, get your head out of Salmonds arse and breath some fresh air! Nothing better than thinking with a clear, open mind to see the problems in the SNP plans!
Thatchers service cuts, thats where we are with the SNP! You don't get tax cuts with out cuts to services! 'm sure as such an excellent economist he understands the Zero sum game, he just hopes you don't!
So would the SNP MP John MAson agree with Hitlers Views on killing the jews, would he agree with the occupation of Palestain! even if the fool that is John MAson doesn't directly agree with, can he at least give me the permission to disagree with it, without being a rascist or a colonialist!
I'm glad that you think ethnic cleansing is no reason to go to war, it makes me feel better about leaving SNP suppoerters like you behind! All it takes for evil to succeed is for good men to do nothing! A world of evil must then await us with people like alex salmondin charge!
Maybe now it would have been best to leave Iraq alone, maybe Saddam would have been best left in place torturing his own people! I'm alright jack! The taliban can stay in power in Afghanistan, who cares about the rights of women anyway Sod the Bosniaks, let them rot in hell!Is this the sort of things you think we should all believe in.
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Also Irn Bru, while we are at it! Hoe easily are you took in by rubbish! Gordon Brown is probably a good 4 foot from that "gun"! If you had seen the actual video footage, you would have seen it swing back round to it's neutral posistion as such! Idiot! Why try and continue stupid SNP propaganda, like i said think for yourself, think am i being an idiot being taken in by this picture! The answer in that case is a yes, in case you didn't realise
For the Milliband one, i'm sure he's aiming right at his 17 year old daughter! Just like your friend the SNP councillor!
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Grey is the colour
Gray is the name
The message is one of saviour
Although puppet will be the game
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#60regmitchell
"Fishing Close Season."
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Regarding tourism, it certainly is an important part of Scotland's economy. It's also not doing that well, and there's dissatisfaction with the VisitScotland quango. I'd federate the tourism angle to local councils, rather than concentrate it at the top. We should move away from tourists doing Scotland in one go, and devolving tourism promotion would achieve this.
Homecoming 2009 is, in the current economic climate, a complete waste of time. Ancestry tourism is probably only a small fraction of the total tourism trade in Scotland, but the nationalists overplay it for soppy romantic reasons. Furthermore, currency fluctuations, fuel costs and airline collapses make 2009 an especially bad year for ancestry tourism.
Conversely, it'll be an especially good year for intra-UK tourism, though how much of this will filter into Scotland remains to be seen. I reckon the nationalists will put off English visitors. Yes, the nats may not be prejudiced (cue remarks about English friends), but they bear endless petty grudges, ranging from Berwick to the BBC. Who wants to go somewhere where the ruling party thinks there's too much of your accent on TV?
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#58 regmitchell
"CynicalHighlander implied that all those big bad bankers, "ripping off their clients" and "keeping afloat with tax payers money" were located in London."
"Implied?" So your attack on Cynicalhighlander is based on what you THINK he "implied"? Nothing he actually wrote?
The trouble is, we don't have a direct line to your brain (thank god for that). How on earth are we supposed to mind-read what you THINK he "implied"?
All I did was point out that your question: "Where is this Scottish bank based?" Answer: Scotland, doesn't make any sense.
Then it's straight into the standard blowhard fallbacks for you: "I was only being ironic", "I was only winding him up."
It's pathetic.
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Dull Gray starts his tenure with the "punch and judy" politics that belong to a previous era..His personal attacks are an indication of weakness and will not endear him to anyone outside of his own party.If he showed respect for the opposition and argued in an intellectual and reasoned manner it would place him in a greater standing with the electorate.One can always tell when the arument is lost in politics when the lowest denominator is selected as the weapon of choice...
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Sorry benafleck! Are we talking about the punch that is David Cameron at Westminster, or the Judy that is Alex Salmond at Holyrod! It is these two who have taken us back to the times of uneductaed, illinformed debate!
Thanks, to whoever objected to my my previous comments! Must have been a bit to close to the truth for their comfort! Very SNP in style, if it doesn't agree with your views it must be wrong!
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#72 Anaxim:
Oh dear Anaxim, Scottish Homecoming 2009 is a waste of time? In the current climate we need to market ourselves even more aggressively to compete for a shrinking market. Marketing to the Scottish diaspora will help an industry under pressure.
It is about more than tourism though, it is about marketing Scotland to the world as a brand and an investment. Compared to wee Jack in a pinstripe kilt, mature efforts to engage with foreign markets and investors is likely to be much more effective. These efforts started soon after the SNP coming to power, and will continue through next year and beyond.
You know, as nationalists, we are often (wrongly) accused of being insular and xenophobic. With press attacks on an SNP Asian councillor and Anaxim's comments on Homecoming, it makes you wonder....
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good afternoon as usual to all the little Nat bloggers who flood the ether with their noise in an affort to obscure the fact that most Scots reject the break up of our nation. Good work lads, Central office is pleased. Now go get a girlfirend
Will be interesting to see if Alex's luck continues and Gray is as poor as the others. He wont be good enough to save Labour in Glenrothes or when McConnell resigns, but these are by elections. Glasgow East will go Labour in 2010 regardless because the sun comes up each morning, Glasgow votes Labour and the sun goes down at night. Its Physics.
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#72.
"Homecoming 2009 is, in the current economic climate, a complete waste of time. Ancestry tourism is probably only a small fraction of the total tourism trade in Scotland, but the nationalists overplay it for soppy romantic reasons."
I disagree, the Nationalists are simply encouraging people from all over the world, who are of Scottish origin, to vist Scotland. It's all about business, money, and help ensuring there is a strong economy.
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testing
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#77, Cllrsanday wrote:
"...most Scots reject the break up of our nation."
What nation is that?
If they define themselves as Scots, then surely the nation is Scotland - and no-one is suggesting its breakup.
The United Kingdom might well be a country, but it has never been a nation.
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testing again
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A bit off topic, but talking to the assertion made several times in recent threads that Scotland is a leading player in a successful Union:
Saturday’s – a widely read North east Newspaper - reported that The Royal Society of Edinburgh had commissioned a report by 11 distinguished academics, which has been chaired by Prof Gavin McCrone (yes the same one, and no he is not a Nationalist). The report totally rejects the UK Government’s stated objective of getting rid of all support when the current Single Farm Payment (SFP) is phased out by 2013. Prof McCrone said -We find ourselves in complete disagreement with the UK Government’s policy that direct support for agriculture from the Cap should end after 2013.-
Prof McCrone went on to say that the inquiry team was £astonished£ that UK Government’s policy, as set out in A Vision for the Cap, had been put forward to the EU without assessing the implications for farming in the different parts of the UK or discussing it with the Scottish, Welsh and Northern Ireland administrations. (so, picking a fight with all three of the nationalist administrations, in a field of considerable importance to all three.)
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Part 2 This is despite the publicity early last year that UK civil servants routinely negotiated at EU level with no regard to Scotland’s or the other Nations needs at all. Leading Nation in a successful Union indeed. Economics students will know that one of the first lessons you learn is about the low elasticity of demand in food stuffs and the result this has on prices and production when harvests swing from good to bad. This is why, until recently (apparent Globalisation means it is not needed now), there has always been some sort of national or supra-national scheme to even out the fluctuations in farm income. Not something the UK Government sees as a high priority as farming is such a small part of the UK economy. I refer readers here to Tony Blair’s stated views at the time of Foot and Mouth. £A widely read newspaper in the North [Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]
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#77 You must be a the head editor of the hootsman, I find your droll trolling quite amusing as you recently claimed that the Tartan Army is merely the tourist wing of the SNP!
Please provide us with more, choice, Arch-Unionist posts!
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Responding to the doubters who want convincing evidence of Scotland’s economic viability in the absence of the Oil industry I would like to suggest some further necessary tests.
I believe the economic model should be tested with the entire whisky industry removed from consideration.
Once this is done it should be tested with the entire tourist industry removed too.
Once this is completed we should test the effect if the farming industry was annihilated over night, and the £5Billion in annual exports simply disappear.
Another fly by night industry that should be excluded is Biosciences and the need to provide massive unemployment aid to, for example Inverness, where Bioscience industries are the largest employer.
When this is done we should exclude the Funds Management Industry, the Insurance industry, and the Nanotech industry where Scotland’s leading position is clearly just a will o the wisp.
Then we have global leading engineering companies that are clearly about to fold. Transport companies like Stagecoach and First Group are tiny operations (sic), Banks – who needs banks, or fishermen or shellfish suppliers, or construction , or electronics experts………
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My 83 again with, I think, the offending link removed.
Part 2
This is despite the publicity early last year that UK civil servants routinely negotiated at EU level with no regard to Scotland’s or the other Nations needs at all.
Leading Nation in a successful Union indeed.
Economics students will know that one of the first lessons you learn is about the low elasticity of demand in food stuffs and the result this has on prices and production when harvests swing from good to bad. This is why, until recently (apparent Globalisation means it is not needed now), there has always been some sort of national or supra-national scheme to even out the fluctuations in farm income.
Not something the UK Government sees as a high priority as farming is such a small part of the UK economy. I refer readers here to Tony Blair’s stated views at the time of Foot and Mouth.
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You'd hardly believe there is so much bile in the world. Henry, Jack and Wendy are still dripping the stuff, when spleens are vented again, this time toward Mr Gray.
Surely the correct, civilised response is: "Best wishes in your new job, Mr Gray. We are very much opposed to yout party's policies and doubt your ability to overcome Mr Salmond's arguments. But it will be interesting to see how you perform."
Some of the ignorant, ill-mannered nastiness on this thread (and towards the end of the previous thread) is simply unacceptable in any context.
It begs the question, where will such incontinent self-loathing find an outlet if Independence is obtained? You cannot become civilised overnight. Will you direct it towards each other, when the SNP, inevitably, self-destructs into what it always was - insignificant little warring factions?
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Brigadier
Bile? I didn’t read any except in response to Gray’s personal attack on AS in his first few words as leader. That probably isn’t really bile either, but they are clearly not statesmanlike words. Nor do I believe I have heard or read anything directed at Mr Gray that could reasonably have provoked such a personal attack.
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35. At 7:48pm on 13 Sep 2008, karinm wrote:
32 neil why would you do that
so why would you exclude a resource when deciding to be independent.
strange logic when the uk has been through thousands of episodes of economic turmoil and yet is still there.
neil seriously what do you think is going to happen if the oil runs out?
just ask yourself what is the worst case scenario then really think about it. just now your just imagining the worst without actually saying okay what is the worst that could happen.
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I'm not going down the "running out of oil" path, I'm not that naive.
My concern is that the SNP are going through the "it's all our oil" debate. I can just see us going independent, and the English government challenging the territorial boundaries via the courts. That could drag on for years. Do you really think an English Government - Tory or Labour - is going to give up the oil revenue?
While we are at it. If the SNP are so pro-green etc, why have they gone for nice new shiny BMW cars for their ministers? I think they have Volvos at present. Nice to see the Scottish Government keeping manufacturing in the UK.........
You cannot make assumptions one way or the other. If we are guaranteed sufficient income, and there is a sound energy policy in place - ie the ability to produce our own energy needs - then I might be convinced to go down the independence route.
Labour make things even worse now that Iain Gray (who?) has been elected. He should try and work with the SNP for once. They do have some good ideas. For once ministers - from all parties - should swallow their political pride and publicly work together.
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#63 SKaufman
Name-calling? You mean like "the fat playground bully" and "a bunch of wind bags"? One party to the argument trying to use reason? You mean the ranks of Labour shouters and bawlers who attempt to shout the First Minister down at FMQs so that reasoned debate in that forum becomes rather difficult, what with the Presiding Officer having to shout back at them for much of the time? Have you tried reasoning with a yelling rabble? It's almost as bad as being in the House of Commons. I doubt whether David Hume would have managed very well to expound much in his preferred mode of delivery if he had had to face the howling banshees and growling bruisers of Scottish Labour. Forgive the name calling, but it seems to be infectious.
Here is the arch-reasoner himself spluttering and sputtering in helpless rage against the mindless mobs and ruffians of the type that shout down the eloquent man or woman of reason and prevent him or her from being heard, the only way for the unreasoning to combat reason seeming to be to silence it:
"The rage and prejudice of parties frighten me, above all, this rage against the Scots, which is so dishonourable, and, indeed, so infamous to the English nation. We hear that it increases every day, without the least appearance of provocation on our part. It has frequently made me resolve never in my life to set foot on English ground.
"Nothing but a rebellion and bloodshed will open the eyes of that deluded (English) people; though were they alone concerned, I think it is no matter what becomes of them . . .
"Oh, how I long to see America and the East Indies revolted, totally and finally - the revenue reduced to half - public credit fully discredited by bankruptcy - the third of London in ruins! . . .
"I am delighted to see the daily and hourly progress of madness, folly, and wickedness in England. The consummation of these qualities are the true ingredients for making a fine narrative in history, especially if followed by some signal and ruinous convulsion - as I hope will soon be the case with that pernicious people."
That was our Age of Enlightenment philosopher David Hume raging against unreason in a letter to his publisher in 1765. If when confronted with the bestial unreason of the baying rabble even Hume could express himself in a way which you would not expect to find in the pages of any of his philosophical works, I think we can allow politicians to express themselves as the political debaters that they are and that we expect them to be. British politics is not a sherry party and never has been. Nor is it a polite colloquium where philosophical debate is conducted before a hushed and attentive audience over tea and muffins. I wish it were, but for FMQs to become anything remotely resembling anything like that, you would need to remove the Labour group from the chamber . . . permanently, I fear. Unfortunately, what the proceedings would gain in rational argument and dignity they would lose in democratic accountability.
There would appear to be nothing much in the way of reason to get hold of in your remarks about the First Minister. There is certainly a blunt assertion, which brooks no opposition, that "there is no argument against" what you have been asserting, namely that your political adversary is a bully. To maintain, without accompanying persuasive argument to substantiate the claim, that there is no argument against your case, is not reasoned argument, I would submit. It is, in fact, a kind of bullying.
The people appear to me to take the view that the actual playground bully in Scottish politics is being stood up to on our behalf by Alex Salmond and the SNP, as the playground is no longer Labour's to command. I would not say that there can be no argument against that statement, however, for that would be unreasonable. Tea and muffins anyone?
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Did anyone catch 'the performance' by the new Leader on the Politics Show?
It certainly did not 'inspire'.
What did anyone else think?
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Chaps, can we retreat back from all-out war between Salmond's supporters and those opposed to him? Surely Brian's last sentence - 'still, this could be intriguing' - is as far as we can go on definitive statements about the outcome of Mr Gray's tenure as leader of the group of people he has now become leader of?
Personally I do not know a great deal about him, but I suspect he will find FMQs troublesome. Salmond has already emphasised the fact that only one other party retained the same leader of recent time, and another sarcastic welcome undoubtedly awaits Mr Gray. And if the best he has is indeed the cry of 'he's an elitist and I ain't' then he might find it nigh on impossible.
But until such time, all we have to go on is not very much, so shouting (figuratively) at each other about it takes us all nowhere. I note that many posters accuse the side which is not their own of being unreasonable, etc - practice what you preach, if you can.
Do people think that Brown will be deposed before the next election? Does Iain Gray's apparent moves towards more independence for the Labour Party in Scotland signal that he is not really Brown's man? These are the things I would like to see discussed, and (so far as I know) what the blog is meant to be about.
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#89.
Neil_Small147.
"You cannot make assumptions one way or the other. If we are guaranteed sufficient income, and there is a sound energy policy in place - ie the ability to produce our own energy needs - then I might be convinced to go down the independence route."
How can one country be guaranteed sufficient income? An Independent Scotland will go through bad times and good times like every other country within the world. What you should be looking at is, do you believe Scotland can revive herself fast enough when the bad times come?
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hi brigadiar, ive re- writen your post for you to think about.
------------------------------------------------------
At 1:19pm on 14 Sep 2008, brigadierjohn wrote:
You'd hardly believe there is so much bile in the world. Alex Salmond is still dripping the stuff, when spleens are vented again and again.
Surely the correct, civilised response from Gorden Brown instead of ignoring it should have been: "Best wishes in your new job, Mr Salmond. We are very much opposed to your party's policies. But it will be interesting to see how your party performs, but we will not oppose your policies if they are in the best interests of the Scottish electorate."
Some of the ignorant, ill-mannered nastiness towards the SNP and their leader since their historic win beggers belief.
It begs the question, where will such incontinent self-loathing find an outlet if labour were ever to be elected again as the magority party in the scottish parliament was obtained? You cannot become civilised overnight. Will you direct it towards each other, when labour, inevitably, self-destructs into what it always was - insignificant backstabbing warring factions?
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i am sure you find the above more to your liking.
Mr Salmond had the common decency to congratulate Mr gray, whereas Gordon Brown shut himself behind closed doors and cried his eyes out at the thought that his beloved union was at risk.
Mr Salmond also congratulated Mr Brown on him becomming prime minister of the UK parliament.
just remember that these posts are all a game, and we all play at it including yourself.
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#91 tammienorrielass1
Inspiration? Did I find the new leader for Labour in the Scottish Parliament to be inspiring? While I think about that, I would just like to preface my remarks by saying that I would like to extend best wishes to Mr Gray in his new job, whatever his already disputed remit turns out to be. I should add that, although opposed to policies of his party and doubting his ability to overcome Mr Salmond's arguments, I hope that it may turn out to be interesting to see how he performs.
As much as any other civilized person, of whatever political persuasion, I am conscious of the fact that, even though Mr Gray is a Labour politician, he was once also a human being and that this is an important moment for him personally. Consequently, I have no wish to give expression to any sentiments that might be construed as insensitive or uncaring. An example might be: during the interview I was so inspired as to be no less than agog with indifference. That sort of thing goes against the grain, and I urge people not to say anything like that. Have I ever been tempted to say anything like that about Mr Salmond? Without wishing to hurt the tender feelings of those who have been berating, denigrating and demonizing him as if he were worthy of being reviled and shunned by the entire population of Scotland, I would have to say in all honesty that the answer to that question can only be in the negative.
Back to the question. Does Mr Gray seem to me to be an inspiring leader? He inspired me to switch off the television set. Sorry, but you did ask.
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#94 vote_nat
"just remember that these posts are all a game, and we all play at it including yourself."
That's the problem, vote_nat, it's only a "game" when its him "winding people up" for his personal amusement.
When other people are winding him up it's the old story it's not funny any more. i.e. he can give it out but can't take it.
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#89 Neil_Small147
"Do you really think an English Government - Tory or Labour - is going to give up the oil revenue?"
What makes you think an "English Goverment" would exist if Scotland became independent? The "Union" - and this is part of the problem with the way you people think - does not consist of only Scotland and England. What about Wales and Northern Ireland?
Let's assume for the sake of argument that after Scotland gets independence Wales and Norhtern Ireland also get independence, and there does indeed exist a separate "English government".
Are you trying to tell me that a legal document exists somewhere that states an "English government" has a legal claim to revenues from oil extracted from the seas around the coast of the island of Great Britain?
Perhaps such a legal document exists which would allow a UK Government to make such a claim - but you seem to be assuming the entire UK government would be dissolved if Scotland gets independence.
There certainly exists no such contract signed by the representative of an "Englsih government" since there hasn't been an "English government" for over 300 years.
You've said: "You cannot make assumptions one way or the other" but that hasn't stopped you making the major assumption that an "English Government" will exist after Scotland leaves the Union and that the newly-created "English government" would have a legal claim to revenues from oil extracted from around the coasts of Scotland. That sounds like a mighty big (and totally illogical) assumption to me!
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#94 vote_nat: Excellent response! Just one detail: I didn't write as a supporter of Labour, just an onlooker whose views on all the parties are well known. You of course are coming from a party-political position. But that is your right. Even games have rules, however.
As for #96, this is from the man who, not many weeks ago, was telling the moderators that I (and a few others who ridiculed him) should be not only censored, but have my membership cancelled.
He has the brass neck to come on here and claim that I "can't take it." What a champion of free speech. What a comedian.
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#94 vote_nat
And there, right on cue (#98) is the proof that he can't take it!
In my #96 I was only "winding him up" but it took less than 20 minutes for the predictable outraged response.
That's what happens when they can't take it!
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#94 vote_nat
Just wait. There'll be another one in a minute!
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#99: Away and take a cold shower. You are a figure of fun on this blog, as countless others have said repeatedly. Nobody is impressed. I am embarrassed that you have called yourself a journalist (is that like Christine Keeler was a model?).
I know you will come back for "the last word" because you must have it or you will burst with outraged pomposity. Just remember, if you want to throw insults, you are not in my league.
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#94 vote_nat
Told you! ;-)
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#94 vote_nat
Let's see how long it this continues before he can prove he can actually take it by not having to post a petulant response!
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Is this all the Labour party is about when its past leader, I can't count how many back, is just condemning the SNP over sectarianism.
http://news.scotsman.com/latestnews/-Salmond-blamed-for-39cancer.4489962.jp
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"Scottish Liberal Democrat leader Tavish Scott has called for a 2p income tax cut in Scotland.
"Mr Gray argued that the policy would mean stripping £400m a year from public services."
I think Salmond should call Scott's bluff and cut income tax in Scotland by 2p.
Sure, we might have to put up with cuts in public services, as Gray points out, but it would be worth it to see a tax differential that would go down like the proverbial lead balloon in England.
So, I for one agree with Scott's call, but not for the reason he made it.
He doesn't give a damn about the plight of the Scottish people, he just wants to claim later that Salmond doesn't care if he rejects his "call". The Lib-Dems: a very sad bunch of losers.
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#105
The Brigadier is spot on.
By the way you probably couldn't kick snow of a dyke.
You idea of football tactics is total naff....
Relevant....yes.. you've made the comments in previous posts
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Hi brigadierjohn,
You are correct in stating that i am an SNP supporter, and i am not ashamed of that and do not try to hide it.
you can understand the SNPs supporters anger at the snub from Gordon Brown towards AS.
GRAY should have kept his speech to how he was going to improve his parties ratings and not used it as a personal attack on the first minister, then he might not have got as much flak as he received.
when ? SCOTLAND gets its independence, i would support independent mps and not party mps as party politics are a waste of time.
its whats best for scotland and its population that really counts, and i want the best to lead us.
I have not stated you support labour, but your posts come across as SNP put down, so i suspect that you are a unionist of some sorts.
if you want to be considered as on the fence, then you would be even handed in your postings when any of the party supporters deride each others.
but as i said its all a game of point scoring.
who cares wins.
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Are the Labour party too scared to publish what the turnout and voting figures (not percentages) were for the Scottish Labour leadership contest?
http://cybernat.blogspot.com/2008/09/so-where-are-numbers.html
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#87 brigadier
If you check my #42 you will perhaps understand that Mr Gray has come out with both barrels blazing and should therefore expect a similar response from the more hot headed SNP supporters.
He has taken over from where Ms.Jamieson left labour at last weeks FMQs.
As well as this I have come up with a theory to back my claims that you are SNP.
You are either working in cahoots with bighullaballoo or you are one in the same person a sort of Jekyll and Hyde scenario??
You fire the bullets and the big guy turns them into grenades to exact responses from the unionists.
Am I getting warmer??
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No change at the top! Monty Python must be quaking as they are going to lose their status for being in the premiership of comedy.
Mr Gray has. sorry got to laugh.
"The candidate in Labour's failed Glasgow East by-election campaign is to take a leading role in driving forward new policies for the Scottish party."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/7615429.stm
Someone who has worked and lived in (think as she herself got a little confused) "Doddy Land"
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How cum they bloogers canie spel correktly? Even the wan wot complaned about spellin.
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#89 Neil
"You cannot make assumptions one way or the other."
Actually you can. The process is largely simple (one area not yet clear I'll describe later).
The principle of equidistance from the coastlines of the countries involved applyfor a discussion of the issues see this.
Hence the Scottish section of the Continental Shelf will probably not be the geographic area described in the GERS report (which took as its Southern border in the North Sea a line of latitude used by the UK to demarcate its internal fishery jurisdictions - and has no meaning in international law) but that part of the UK sector which is defined by equidistance.
The probable Scottish share of North Sea Oil is around 75% (the sectoral boundary needs to be calculated to achieve an exact figure).
There is still no agreement over the area around Rockall. This gives some of the information. You might also want to visit the Waveland website and become a citizen of Rockall!
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#107 vote_nat: Be proud of your support for the SNP, and anything else you believe in. Your points are perfectly fair, and decently expressed.
I accept the designation "Unionist" reluctantly, because I am not fixated about the Union. I just don't see anything better meantime. Some of my questions are a bit pointed, and clearly upset the ultra-precious faction among Nats - those who think everything SNP is 100 per cent right, always, and everyone else is a traitor out to wreck Scotland.
I have had some very harsh things to say about Labour, but that is never noticed. The others are relatively unimportant, but the Libs get rubbished because they wouldn't hand Salmond the power that the voters denied him.
I share your ambition to get the best for Scotland, and to have the best to lead us, and I share your contempt for party politics.
I'm less sure what you mean by even-handed. Or "on the fence." I say what I feel without fear of anyone.
Oh, one more thing. Steer clear of bad company. I think you'll know what I mean!
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97. At 5:33pm on 14 Sep 2008, bighullabaloo wrote:
Are you trying to tell me that a legal document exists somewhere that states an "English government" has a legal claim to revenues from oil extracted from the seas around the coast of the island of Great Britain?
Are you telling that there is a legal document which states that Scotland has a claim to the oil?
If there are no legal documents, then does this not indicate that the issue would go to court?
93. At 4:16pm on 14 Sep 2008, Thomas_Porter wrote:
What you should be looking at is, do you believe Scotland can revive herself fast enough when the bad times come?
What people should be asking is can Scotland afford to pay for all the changes that independence would entail? I'm talking about changes in Government infrastructure: taxation, health, defence, emergency services.
Student loans is a good example. The SNP did not pay off the student debt (in excess of 2 billion, and potentially political suicide - why should I as a taxpayer and ex-student pay for alcohol and PCs, dvds etc). The bulk of that is collected via HMRC. How will that be dealt with? What about timezones? Many in the SE want to be on CET. What about PFI debt?
We need clear answers. If we can afford it, so be it.
But think on this. If we do go independent, one day the SNP will lose power and Labour will be straight back in.
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# 114 Neil_Small147
How about answering the questions in my #97 instead of just ignoring them?
How is this fictional "English government" going to come into existence?
You won't answer that because it exposes the total fallacy in your argument.
If an English government is created it won't have any claims to oil in the seas off an independent Scotland's than it would oil in the seas around North Korea.
Come on: be brave and tell us how your "English government" is going to come into existence. I bet you don't!
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#114.
Neil_Small147.
"What people should be asking is can Scotland afford to pay for all the changes that independence would entail?"
You have went back to the basic Unionist arguement. "Scotland can't afford to go it alone...".
Scotland can afford to go it alone. It will take money and time but yes, Scotland can manage.
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#114 Neil_Small147
"If we do go independent, one day the SNP will lose power and Labour will be straight back in."
This ridiculous statement demonstrates a complete ignorance of the objectives of the Scottish National Party.
The fundamental objective of the SNP is to work for the best interests of the people of Scotland. At the moment that is best achieved through working for independence.
But once independence is achieved the SNP is not going to disappear, as you so stupidly to think.
Their fundamental objective - to work in the bests interests of the people of Scotland - will always be in place.
When Scotland achieves independence I will still be voting for them because unlike you I understand what they stand for.
It's the Scottish National Party, not the Scottish Independence Party you buffoon!
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#109 Jake-the-saltire
Unfortunately you aren't getting warmer. He actually exists and actually believes those ridiculous arguments. Sad isn't it?
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#114 Neil_Small147
"If we do go independent, one day the SNP will lose power and Labour will be straight back in."
This ridiculous statement demonstrates a complete ignorance of the objectives of the Scottish National Party.
The fundamental objective of the SNP is to work for the best interests of the people of Scotland. At the moment that is best achieved through working for independence.
But once independence is achieved the SNP is not going to disappear, as you seem to think.
Their fundamental objective - to work in the bests interests of the people of Scotland - will always be in place.
When Scotland achieves independence I will still be voting for them because unlike you I understand what they stand for.
It's the Scottish National Party, not the Scottish Independence Party!
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#114 Neil
"If we do go independent, one day the SNP will lose power and Labour will be straight back in."
I'm fascinated by your need for Nationalists to give certainties on the post-independence scenarios, but you are happy to make bald assertions, on no evidential base.
In any democracy, parties gain/lose office. Since they are elected by the people, that seems reasonable.
In any post-independence scenario, it is reasonable to assume that there will be a left-of-centre party (SNP?), a right-of centre-party (Tories?), a party representing the North and South against the dominance of the Central Belt (Liberals?), as well as parties pursuing particular politico/economic stances - Greens, Socialists.
If Labour survive, they would no doubt have to occupy one of these niches in the political spectrum. Which one would you see the centralist Labour Party occupying?
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#114Neil_Small147
Can I butt in "Eutopia" doesn't exist because that is what you appear to be asking. Just to pick up on one of your points "Defense". From what? Terrorists, Global Warming (far more serious than people think), Aliens, your nearest neighbours, THE UNKNOWN! sorry I can remember back in the 50- 60's "Reds under the Bed" a total fallacy but propogated by politicians to give themselves more control over individuals so that they could justify their expansionist theories.
I don't feel that it is up to Nationalists to justify their existence but Unionist to justify how they will treat all individuals the same no matter where they reside.
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Torcuil Crighton in the Herald is suggesting that the Lancashire (as opposed to Lanarkshire!) Mafia are just waiting for Labour to lose Glenrothes before putting the boot into Brown.
This is all very reminiscent of John Major and the Tories.
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Posts #105 re-2p tax cut call from the LD's and #119 expose the core issue/problem with many SNP supporters thinking.
Summed up as follows:
1. Cut taxes (it doesn't matter if vital public services suffer) cos it'll rile the English!
2. "It's the Scottish National Party, not the Scottish Independence Party!" Spot on. The SNP certainly aren't for independence; they're for substituting Westminster for Brussels.
A further post refers to the SNP as a "left-of-centre party". Aye, at the moment. The problem is that all the main parties are too close to squeeze the proverbial cigarrette paper between and they're all tethered together and float with the prevailing tide, sometimes to the "left" usually to the right.
I do agree with the the suggestion that the new LD leader's call for a tax cut is pure cynicism. These politicians are the real children of Thatcher.
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#Maxinim
I was going to say Tea and Muffins sounds delightful, and that i apologise in the delay for getting back to you, because i have a life outside this chatroom!
Unfortunatly i was then going to retort to your posting by asking if you have ever watch FMQ's, as i have! This makes it seem as i have no life outside off politics, thankfully i have! Just!!
What a lovely elequent submission, really i was quite moved!
I think you would see that the rabble, is on the SNP benches! I'm sure you will often see the camera panning from the business like faces of the Labour and even Tory benches to that of lthe laughing policemen! I mean not to be offensive, but serously, that is the only way i can think to put it! Very cute, if it wasn't so vexing!
I do apologise if The big yin tok offense to my remarks, but i'm sure he will take little notice of what i say!
Any ideas on if he is accepting the challenge to a 100M dash by the way?
xx
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It is vey uncomfortable to read someone continuously making a prat of themselves on this blog.
Can someone take Neil Small aside and explain national territorial waters, diverse national economies, the European Union's trading conditions,GNP etc and all the other fairly simple concepts which are shared by all developed economies of which Scotland's is one.
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I just want to commend post #120 by old nat.
If independence ever happens (as I hope and believe it will) there will be a major party-political realignment - with the unionist parties reacting quickest (and accepting the result) able to stake out large political territories as reformed 'pro-sovereignty' parties. Given Labour still seems to think it is in power, they may struggle at least initially - but the broader tradition (if not the party) is deeply imbedded in Scotland (and, dare I say, in large areas of the SNP membership!)
Elections will continue to occur post-independence and a variety of parties (some which would would recognise, possibly others that we would not!) will win.
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"Would you persuade, speak of Interest, not of Reason." (Benjamin Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanack, 1736) Discuss.
Wishing to adopt a positive approach towards the new opposition leader in the legislature and having noticed the word 'reason' being bandied about here, I am tempted to broach the delicate subject of honesty. How far would you get in politics if you expected every voter or many voters to respond to reason alone? Reasoning is a skill, and philosophers are few. If all you want are the votes of philosophers, you will not get far. That is why a practical politician in a democracy tempers reason with common sense and personal interest, the personal interest of the largest number of voters. You know this, of course.
Is that not what the First Minister does consummately well and the Labour opposition remarkably poorly? A discourse dense with tightly reasoned argument would be indigestible to the majority. So he does not give them that. What would be the point? At the same time the mind of every man and woman can be reasoned with at his or her own level. So he gives them that in so far as humanly possible or thereabouts. A difficult skill to acquire and to deploy with success. Few have it, and only few can have it.
On the other hand there is the politician who simply aims too low and narrow and so never engages with the mind of the majority without insulting its intelligence, especially if reading assiduously from a prepared text. Who might that be?
A further ingredient is required: passion. Unless what you say is infused with passion, your words will be as dead things and will fall on deaf ears. So reason simultaneously operating at several levels, accompanied by a degree of passion which does not detract from it, focuses upon the self-interest of the elector who is the most representative of the electorate as a whole while looking him or her directly in the eye and persuading that elector to gaze into your soul and share your vision so that his or her vision is enriched, transformed and melds with yours.
Can you do all of that, Mr Gray? I don't think so. But we shall see. Unfortunately for you, you have an appointment on Thursday with a man who has all these skills and is appreciated for them. Yesterday you sought to contrast yourself with Mr Salmond. You were right to do so but unwise, for the contrast is not favourable to you. The First Minister is a better man than you, and everybody knows it.
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#123 jam
You should have noted that I put a question mark against all of the possible roles that parties might fill. I'm not making any predictions.I have frequently posted that there is little to choose between the socio-economic policies of mainstream parties in any of the OECD countries. Parties like to pretend to their core voters that they (and their opponents) still have the traditional values of 50 years ago. In reality they all conform to neo-liberal philosophy and the power of market forces (until market forces hit the financiers, who are the real power in the Westernised world, and the taxpayer is expected to bail them out!).
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#122 oldnat
The last paragraph sums it up for me.
"At the LibDem conference yesterday, Tavish Scott compared the Labour Party with a burning Shetland longboat in an echo of Viking sea burial. It was a colourful and appropriate metaphor for a Shetlander, but this is no boat on fire. With some senior Labour politicians conceding defeat in Glenrothes without a shot being fired in the official campaign it is the ocean that is aflame."
I won't miss them, history will be their judge and the voters will be jurors.
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#124 SKaufman
Thank you for getting back to me. Nice to hear from you.
As a matter of fact, I watch FMQs when I can and have done for quite some time. (The Wendy Show made me a regular viewer.) In future I shall try very hard to see what you appear to be seeing, as I try to be accommodating. If my perception alters, I shall let you know.
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#127
Excellent post
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#123.
1. Cut Taxes (it should counter the rising cost of food and energy) The people have to find the money from somewhere.
2. The three unionist parties are also Pro-European. You are simply scaremongering. Scotland deserves her own voice in the European Parliament.
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Just as an asside and going back to being PC. Found this little gem about a Scottish Institution
which I'm sure will amuse some and says it all.
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'No strategy ever survived first contact with the enemy.'
It appears that the Nats. are making the cardinal error of underestimating Mr. Gray before even battle is joined.
It might be wise to consider the following:- already AS has been rushing round the media desperately trying to disassociate himself from his Thatcherite comments. On Thursday, despite a very inept performance by Ms. Jamieson, he again looked distinctly rattled.
Now Mr.Gray gives an equally inept speech involving a thinly veiled personal attack on AS which all on this blog have rightly condemned. But, was his ineptitude geniune or studied, or is he trying to lure the SNP into a false sense of security before delivering a devastating blow. I would counsel you to think carefully on this.
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OldNat
Not so sure whether Labour fits into that cosy middle ground now:
I have been getting increasingly concerned by their gallop to the right e.g.
ID cards, son of Trident, undermining habeas corpus, Immigration by order of the Daily Mail, pan national integrated personal databases, Gatzo cameras recording number plate info.
This is the creeping progress that could easily result in a police state.
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#123 jam804
"Posts #105 re-2p tax cut call from the LD's and #119 expose the core issue/problem with many SNP supporters thinking."
The real reason you don't like my posts is because I'm the one most successfully demolishing the ridiculous non-arguments of assorted Unionist prats.
I'm quite sure they detest that I demand evidence and facts to justify their ridiculous claims. But repeatedly we find they don't have proof.
Time and again they fail to answer even the simplest question. They know that answering would simply expose the absurdity of their claims.
They choose instead to resort to childish insults. But these insults just further expose a woeful inability to justify flawed arguments.
So, you go ahead and try to rubbish my posts without offering anything that remotely resembles justification for doing so. It shows I'm getting through.
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#134 Dick-Whittington
"But, was his ineptitude geniune or studied?"
I'd say his ineptitude was definitely genuine.
No one who's studied could be that bad at reading a prepared speech.
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#109 Jake: I had a quick last look before saying goodnight. Let me test your little theory.
Put your hand on your heart, and your reputation for fair and honest comment on the line, and tell me honestly:
Would you prefer to debate politics, or even socialise, with a hard-faced, cynical -- but humorous -- ratbag like me, or with the hysterical, pompous, offensive character who imagines he could lay a glove on me in a debate about flower arrangement.
Remember, you're on hour honour. And all your future comments will be judged on what you say -- so don't dodge it.
Tomorrow will be my last look before I invade Poland -- but only for four days!
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Certain people on here are resorting to personal insults.
Dear, dear. Time to grow up and accept that not everyone is comfortable with a First Minister who at every turn deliberately causes divisions with England.
I'm trying to make valid points but the uber-nationalists on this blog cannot seem to accept the concerns of many people with regard to Scotland going fully independent.
You all seem to be under the delusion that once we are independent we'll be a rich little nation.
I'm not anti-independence, but it is an issue that has arisen rapidly over the past few years, and there appears to be a headlong rush towards it. What's wrong with caution?
The SNP are in a good bargaining position with Westminster, especially as Labour are almost certainly going to get slaughtered at the next election.
Would Alex Salmond not be better to have a slower approach? If he and the SNP are seen to be capable of running Government well over a period of a few years, then more people might warm to them.
Accept that there are concerns, but do not resort to insults.
And to Oldnat at #112 re Rockall. That is just what Iain Gray will achieve in his(brief) stint as leader.
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#133 Jake: If you are insinuating that I'm Dennis the Menace, I love it. But I'm sure Walter the Softy will know it's an allusion to him. I love that even more!
I'm going to bed laughing.
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#138 brigadierjohn
In your #101 you claimed I like have to have "the last word" but what your latest outburst of bile shows is simply that it's YOU who just can't take it. A very sad case.
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#138 Brigadier
Flower Arranger Invades Poland! - Headlines their should have been :-)
Enjoy your trip.
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Jake....would you think it better to sue for Independence now! rather than hold a referendum in 2010.......most governments do loss votes as time passes....and giving the fact that most of the argument are based on a future Independent Scotland.
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#134 Dick-Whittington
I am intrigued. Bring on the devastating blow. If you mean more dirty tricks, I think those are expected.
A word of advice. Never promise a devastating blow. It will be less devastating as a result of having been announced. If, on the other hand, it doesn't materialize or work out as intended, you've got egg on your face.
PS Any word on "the Edinburgh-Tehran axis" yet?
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#139 Neil_Small147
"Would Alex Salmond not be better to have a slower approach? If he and the SNP are seen to be capable of running Government well over a period of a few years, then more people might warm to them."
One minute it's "bring it on!". The next minute it's "would it not be better to have a slower approach?". I wish these people who're terrified of independence would make up their minds if they want it to "go faster!" or "go slower!"
Neil, open your eyes: the Scottish government are doing exactly what you're asking for. They showing they are "capable of running Government well over a period of a few years."
Salmond has used virtually those exact words time and again. And I have bad news for you: a great many people HAVE warmed to them and a great many more WILL warm to them.
So, even if you have to be dragged screaming and kicking, you will soon find yourself in an independent Scotland. You'd do better to stop whimpering and get used to the idea of taking control of your own destiny.
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#140 brigadier
Enjoy Poland. Last and only time I was there was in 1977 Gdansk. Had a great time but thats another story.
I'm still not convinced that you are not colluding with the big guy even though you both deny it.
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#139 Neil
In your #89 you said
In your #114 you asked
In my #112 I told you that "The principle of equidistance from the coastlines of the countries involved apply"
In your #139 you responded with the kind of anti-Labour jibe you use on Nick Robinson's blog.
Don't you understand the nature of debate?
You put forward an argument, or ask a question that you think is a put down for the opposition. Your opponent responds with the factual detail.
You then have 2 possible responses -
1. counter the detailed response you have been given
2. ignore any evidence which does not agree with the prejudices in your view of the world.
That you have chosen the second course, indicates that you have nothing to contribute to political debate, other than a reiteration of your assertions about the world, with no justification or supporting evidence.
You must live in a very comfortable world, where no evidence that contradicts you is ever allowed to penetrate. Those of us who value reason (as well as emotion) in a political forum refer to your world as "La La Land". Be happy in it.
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For those of you feel that the nanny state can go a little too far, I give you this from the libertarian Mr Eugenides. Enjoy (unless you're an Ayrshire nurse).
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#143 derek
Suggest you read #145 bighallabaloo.
Despite His somewhat abrasive manner at times I think he has got it entirely right.
Prepare for independence because its coming.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#139 Neil_Small147
Here is proof that the SNP aims to be "seen to be capable of running Government well over a period of a few years".
Salmond is taking precisely the "slower approach" you suggested in your #139:
1. BBC Online, May 4, 2008
Salmond said: "I have always argued that we have to demonstrate our competence and authority in government before the referendum question. "
2. The Times, May 9, 2008
"The SNP administration at Holyrood says that it wants to hold a referendum in 2010 after it has had a chance to prove itself in government."
2. The Independent, August 10, 2008
Salmond said: "In the referendum, it will be the governance of Scotland over three years, and the credibility and authority that comes from that."
How much more proof do you need?
If the "headlong rush towards independence" exists, then let's see the evidence that proves it. Otherwise you cannot expect people to take you or your comments seriously.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#Maxinim
I believe you could start your research by looking for a Herald from last Thursday, i believe there is a photo on Page 6, that would illustrate the difference! I may have my day altogether wrong, i was under a bit of pressure last week, and as such my recollection of the happenings are few!
#tramledunderfoot
I do believe your informers are wrong! It would appear that AS may have come to learn a lesson that just because something is popular and wins elections doesn't mean it's right! The right decisions are often the hard decisions and it is inevitable that you can not please all the people all of the time. Indeed, it's impossible to please many people at any time!
I do hope that someone who believes in constantly striving for the popular decisions is not in power for long, as the long term outlook could be very scary for the country.
I mean not to bash Mr Salmond here, as before he had any real power he may have believed he could get away with it! I have an idea i can fly, if only i could bring my self to test it out! I believe Alex may have learned a lesson, has he seems to be back tracking on a number of his populist commitments now that he realises you can't afford everyting. Indeed very rarely can you have your cake and eat it.
At that it is time for me to leave, i wish you all a good day.
x
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From Bungler Brown to Greeting Gray.
George Foulkes was moved to suggest that the election of Mr Gray reminded him of Tony Blair's victory, does that mean Gray is going to launch illegal wars against third world countries?
Labour in London is a shambles, they are like ferrets in a sack. Mind you, Bungler is only recieving what he once dished out to Tony Bliar. Core theme back stabbing amongst each other and sheer neglect of electorate during difficult times.
Regional Scottish Labour, if Ian Gray is the best they can do, it highlights the dearth of talent in Scottish Regional Labour.
The one policy that Greeting Gray could introduce that would help in Scotland is, to put Scotland and its people first, always. However, there is only one party that is prepared to do that, alway SNP. Why it's Scottish the other parties are merely regional parties governed from England.
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Coming from a non-Scottish perspective I think Gray was the best of a bad bunch. His acceptance speech with it's digs at Salmond was childish. The way to confront Salmond is not with a baseball bat, as he is such a formidable debater and seems to be able to walk on water at the minute,but rather with a tripwire. Gray needs to challenge Salmond on the minutiae of policies like LIT and try and catch him out on the details. He needs to take a page out of Annabel Goldie's book and be willing to work with the Government on some issues, doing so makes you look thoughtful and stateman like, opposition for the sake of it makes you look silly. As has been said above Labour is going to have to grasp the central problem of devolution and let the Scottish party plot it's own course. The Tories realised this with the result that their Scottish party has a more arms length relationship with the UK party and Goldie has operational freedom that Scots Labour can only envy. Historically the Tories have traditionally been a loose "bottom up" organisation while Labour has always been a tightly controlled party that in it's heartland has been characterised by Tammany Hall style machine politics and the recent evidence from heartlands like Scotland, Wales and Crewe is that people are fed up being taken for granted. I think Gray knows this but there are vested interests in the party who will oppose him.
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154. And yet another childish post from McGray that is not worth the bandwidth.
Just what is pre-moderation all about if not to prevent such posts?
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#144 Post Haste
I don't know if there is an Ediburgh-Tehran Axis. I don't know where Tehran is. If, however, you are referring to Teheran, I equally don't know - but you better hope there isn't.
In similar vein, and directed at Thomas Porter and Bighullabaloo, if that's the best you can come up with in your defence of Jahangir Hanif then your party is in real trouble.
And on a point of info. Thomas, I do know where Kashmir is, although clearly you don't. The Pakistan Northern Tribal areas as you are wont to call them are actually Waziristan. There has been no problems between Kashmir and Waziristan by virtue of the fact that the Karakorum, Ladakh and Pir Panjir mountain ranges, collectively known as the Himalayas, form quite a big wall between the two, and there are few if any passes. Please don't tell your Granny how to suck eggs.
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#146 Jake: If I'm Dennis the Menace you must be Roger the Dodger. I would hope neither is allied with Walter Mitty.
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#157 Dick
I suspect your cat is a better geographer than you.North and South Waziristan are 2 of the 7 Agency run Federally Administered Tribal Areas in Pakistan. They are the most south-westerly FETAs. The provinces that Thomas refers to are the six FRs (Frontier Regions) namely FR Peshawar, FR Kohat, FR Tank, FR Banuu, FR Lakki and FR Dera Ismail Khan.
The Karakorum Mountains lie to the North-East of the FRs and Kashmir.
A simple guide can be found here.
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SKaufman in your bombastic post you instructed me that my informers were wrong (on the police pay and arbitration situation) and then declined to say why. Why ?
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#159 oldnat
Well congratulations on your close reading of Wikipedia. Now a reality check - yes, you are correct the Karakorums do run to the north east, so does Kashmir, the Karakorums are one point of entry if they were passible, they're not. Point two, the Pakistan govt doesn't administer anything in the tribal areas, their writ does not run there, that's why they're lawless. Point three, my cat may be a better geographer than me, and also you who doesn't appear to dispute the fact that there are mountains between Kashmir and Northern Pakistan which are impassible, so why Mr. Hanif or his compadres would need training for an enemy who is never going to appear would seem to be one of these awkward facts that you don't like addressing.
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My abiding memory of Mr Gray is the look of absolute glee on his face when the allocation for the first year of the SNP minority administration was announced.
The fact that this announcement was a cut in real terms for the people of Scotland seemed to cause him great joy.
Sums him and Labour up.
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#152.
If you wish to point out that I may be wrong, do it. But without the insults.
oldnat frequently responds, but he never stoops to your level.
If you are typical of an SNP activist thenGod help us all.
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#139 Neil-Small147
Could you please define 'uber-nationalist' for me, specifically what differentiates this type of nationalist from another.
Thanks.
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#161 Dick
Miaow! (that's to your cat)
You are persistent. Unfortunately you are also persistently ignorant.
The mountains are not impassable - in fact there are passes that provide routes through the highest range to Tibet, the physical links between the FRs and Pakistani controlled Kashmir are much easier.
An Indian geography or if you want to see pictures of the area (including the Burzill pass) in 1907, you find these easier to understand.
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162. Your prose looks familiar. Do you use another account/username as well?
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May i please start by thanking the moderator for re-instating my comments at #68 and #69! It seems that just because an SNP supporter doesn't like my contributions doesn't mean it shouldn't be included. I hope the person who did complain has some judgement cast against him!
#Draboy
I believe i was commenting on trampled underfoot, and it seems unlike mine, your link has been removed! I believe that my informers must be slightly better than yours, and feel that throwing some more detail may through my informer into some difficulty!
However, rest assured, that i am correct! The Informer i'm mentioning being at the heart of the SNP, not Labour as i'm assuming some of you may have assumed! We all know what happens when you assume.
If the SNP wish to release their obligations to police pensions, as was offered, i'm sure it would have been dealt with better!
The negotiations on the pension details have been finalised for some time, or at least they knew what was happening and ignored it in hope to gain some political capital!
I think they may have shot themselves in the foot! The money is likely to be reduced from operational budgets, however they fudge it! Operational budgets that are all ready under strain from previous uncosted promises by the SNP Party!
I was again inform you this a very senior SNP source.
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Simply not true #162. The figures from the October 2007 CSR are as follows:
2007/08: 26,059 million
2008/09: 27,244 million (+4.5%)
2009/10: 28,399 million (+4.2%)
2010/11: 29,784 million (+4.9%)
The RPI at the time of the CSR was 4.2%.
So rather than being a "cut in real terms" the CSR actually delivered record levels of funding.
But doesn't this just show the cynicsm of our politicians. They have tried to hoodwink the Scottish people into believing this was some sort of funding cut, whilst trumpeting a modest increase in Police levels as "POLICE NUMBERS AT RECORD LEVELS" and even more cynically, tried to spin a 40% cut in funding to the Glasgow Science Centre as "RECORD PUBLIC SUPPORT".
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I want to apologise for my spelling, grammer and punctuation! Once again it's been a very long day!
x
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#162 Exactly!
Something strangely poetic in his "emphatic victory" being trumped by his immediate smack-down from Des Browne.
Neither does his self-promotional victory speech, replete of course with the kind of cheap and ill-conceived personal attacks that predictably appealed to the baying mob of Labour self-preservationists –enlighten us as to whether or not he became the darling of the local pygmies during his mission to tame Africa single-handedly.
However, we can rest assured that any experience he gained in dealing with warring tribal factions must stand him in good stead as leader of his MSP group.
Let there be no doubt either, of his quality performance as Rabbit in the Headlights – a role he has made his own, and demonstrated admirably again opposite Glen Campbell on the Politics Show.
The Force must be well and truly behind Mr Gray as we anticipate the deployment of his hard-won experience and formidable capabilities against the First Minister – for whom we fear greatly as he is surely about to meet his match!
Game on!
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#165 oldnat
Ah oldnat, you're a wily old bird but I'm on to you. On reading your post, my immediate reaction was why on earth is he mentioning Tibet which is close to a thousand miles away from the away from the Pakistan/Kashmir border and would involve a death-defying march across the Taklamakan Desert, but then you mention the Burzil Pass. I have never heard of the Burzil Pass, and I know every pass through the Karakorums and Pir Panjir because I checked what they were all called.
It transpires that the Burzil Pass runs through the Ladakh range from Kashmir into China. Absolutely no one would use it to get into Northern Pakistan. First of all it sits at 11,000 feet which means it is probably snowbound for 8 months of the year, so even if you get through it you're not getting back, not in the same year and you'd have to cross the desert and then go through the Karakorums to get into Pakistan. A journey that would take about 3 years, assuming you live.
So nice try, oldnat, but I'm on to you. Mentioning the Burzil Pass is like suggesting the best way of getting from Leeds to London is via Helsinki.
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#157 Dick-Whittington
Your petty adjustment of my spelling of Tehran is unwarranted, as reference to an atlas will confirm. Mine is Bartholomew's. If I've got it wrong, so have they. It is immaterial, in any case, as either form is merely a rough transliteration from Farsi.
As for "the Edinburgh-Tehran axis", I take it that this is just another anti-SNP lie that is now being run away from, as there is nothing that can be done to show that it is not a lie.
Malicious scaremongering is a serious matter, to be taken seriously. It is the content of it that is not to be taken seriously.
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-#172 Post Haste
First Rule of Politics:- Don't let an opponent get to you - laugh it off or turn it into a joke, it invariably makes your opponent look bad.
Second Rule of Politics:- Don't raise a false flag and then get upset when it gets shot down - it also makes you look bad.
Third Rule of Politics:- When something look ridiculous, it probably is ridiculous - see Tavish Scott's 2 pence tax cut for details.
Fourth Rule of Politics:- Don't try to kid a kidder. Politics is about making the other guy blink - you blinked.
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171 Dick-Whittington
if you look at oldnats 165 you will realise that he only said that there are passes right throught the mountains from pakistan to tibet.
he also refered to photo's of the burzil pass to let you see the general type of terrain.
i believe that the actual pass that he means linking pakistan to kashmir is the babusar pass.
hope this clears up any missunderstanding.
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171 Dick-Whittington
i should also point out that i got the info from going into oldnats links, they are very helpful.
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Brian:
That is true, fine words and noble sentiments are always the finest way...
~Dennis Junior~
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