A time of crisis
Weren't those scenes in the US House of Representatives simply extraordinary?
The Speaker reluctant to bring down the gavel on the rejection of the £700bn "rescue" package, somewhat like a judge who cannot believe the verdict just delivered by the jury but must pronounce sentence nonetheless.
The vote was, of course, driven by partisan concerns - the fear among Republicans and Democrats that the people would not tolerate a bail-out for profligate banks.
By contrast, the response in the UK has been a strictly temporary and limited suspension of hostilities. This is a direct and explicit rebuttal of the tendencies on show in Congress. Not here, not now.
Where I am, at the Tory conference in Birmingham, there is an understandably subdued atmosphere. Indeed, David Cameron was obliged to note in passing that the conference would continue, despite events.
Mr Cameron offered to assist the UK Government in tackling the crisis. Partly, of course, this is fighting for a place in the developing narrative. But it is also authentic. He offered, for example, to drop detailed objections to legislation permitting the Bank of England to assist failing financial institutions.
The Prime Minister earlier took the initiative by contacting opposition leaders.
In Scotland, the First Minister Alex Salmond is taking a comparably co-operative line. He has already discussed the situation with Des Browne, the Secretary of State for Scotland.
Further talks, also involving the Treasury, are planned.
Like other political leaders here, Mr Salmond believes that a new version of the US rescue package must be swiftly introduced and carried in order to return stability to the markets.
I'm 
~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~28~RS~)
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The Irish rescue package sounds more sensible than the US one - followed by automatic nationalistion of any bank found to be inadequately funded by the FSA - without compensation to the shareholders or bonuses for the directors, of course.
We would be in much better shape to cope with this had we joined the Euro from the outset, but we should move towards joining it ASAP now. Not something close to "Duff" Gordon's heart, I suspect, or the "official" Tory party, I suspect.
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The Bank of Scotland has been around for over 300 years. A Scottish Football team has been around for around 140 years.
There is no gurantee for the hard working indivuals in B of S that their jobs will remain, indeed, likelihood is many will sadly be lost to Scotland.
Remember the guarantees given when UD was taken over.
What garuantee would British politicians give Scotland that if a British football team is fielded in 2012 that the SFA would continue?
More to point, would you believe them?
The Irish have put in place measures and policies that suit their country. Sadly, we still have some in Scotland that believe that the sticking with the people who got you in to the mess in the first palce is the best policy.
How stange life is!
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Also off-topic.
The SNP are trumpeting the fall in crime figures as all their work.
What exactly have they done in the past 18 months that has contributed to this decrease?
I doubt those 48 extra police would have done much, so what else is there?
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#4 Question us arch-nats motives all day if you like; you cannot question the SNP is delivering results.
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At long last the politicians are starting to realise that the whole world does not revolve around party politics!
The vast majority of banks have been getting away with daylight robbery for years, and successive governments have done nothing to stop them
One can only assume that the old school tie brigade continue to conclude the money deals in the gentlemen clubs that still run not only this country, but the vast majority of countries within the Western and developing regions
We have all been badly let down, while a few line their own pockets, and it needs to stop and stop now
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The Irish solution goes to the roots of the problem which was greed and bad management. Of course Westminster doesn't want to upset their pals (either red or blue) so they'll just talk a lot then the 'solution' will be a plaster over a gaping wound.
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I have noted that there is a distinct possibility that the HBOS take over may not be a done deal.
The rumour mill that is Thread Needle Street, is rife.
As a result HBOS shares and Lloyds TSB shares are beginning to reflect that something is ongoing.
Could it be that Brown and Darling gave an ok to the “Merger” and that it is questionable?
OOP’s
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#4 didn't take you long to have a pop, but hopefully the other contributors will ignore this and comment on Brian's blog, as I will now do.
Until the US makes a decision, all is up in the air. So it is understandable that all UK parties are holding their breath. Once we know where the US is going, I think the gloves will come back off pretty smartish. We have 2 by-elections coming up and Brown's woes are far from over. Unless he does something drastic, and soon, to regain public confidence, he will lose the respite he has been handed by the US crisis. In particular, Labour needs to control its glee at capitalism's problems and concentrate on helping people. Fiddling around with cold weather payments and insulating homes, as laudable as they are, is not nearly enough.
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#3 northy
Thanks for the interesting link. Being pro a confederal UK myself, I'm slightly surprised the Walloons aren't keen on such a solution.
The cultural and language differences between the Flemish, the francophones and the German-speakers in the East are greater than the differences in Great Britain. Add to that the huge difference in natural resources (Wallonia has no coastline) and maybe they will eventually split completely.
Having lived and worked in Flanders, I probably sympathise more with the Flemish, who weren't the ones who wanted to separate from the Netherlands in the first place.
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#7 quietscotsmac
Well said - whatever they finally come up with couldn't possibly be allowed to impact on their party funding, could it?
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How about the following exposure of Gordon Brown and Labour from the Guido Fawkes site, read it and tell me, any Labour supporter, why I would trust Labour?
Paul Myners is a director of the hedge fund manager GLG, which with $25 billion under management is one of europe's biggest hedge fund managers. It was until recently 10% owned by Lehmans. Paul Myners gave money to Gordon Brown's leadership campaign and he also gave money to Gordon Brown's think-tank the Smith Institute. Gordon rewarded him with appointments to the Treasury's pension review.
Derek Tullet has also given huge amounts of money to the Labour Party. Tullet's broking firm specialises in servicing hedge funds who want to go short stocks and derivatives.
Gilad Hayeem of the Lehman Brothers backed $2 billion hedge fund, Marble Bar Asset Management (Cayman), contributed to Hilary Benn's deputy leadership campaign.
There are plenty more "evil speculators" who have backed the Labour Party.
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Did you know that Labour are setting up a rapid rebuttal unit again? It's to be led by Derek Draper, formerly an assistant to Mandelson, Labour spin doctor and latter day psychotherapist.
The unit will recall the heyday of labours rebuttal unit led by Adrian McMenamin, which used the Excalibar computer system. Part of the task will be to actively scour blogs and political websites and refer uncomplimentary posts to moderators and attack anti-Labour posters.
So, if one of your posts gets referred to the moderators, you'll have a basis for yet another conspiracy theory!
And if you read a posts beginning...I vote SNP but don' you just hate Alex Salmond...you'll have a fair idea where it comes from!
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#14 irnbru_addict
The Mark I prototypes are infesting the NR threads now complaining about pro-Tory bias from Nick Robinson of all people. I don't think there's too much danger of Brian being accused on pro-SNP bias just yet, but when we see it, we'll know that the Draper clones have arrived.
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#14 irnbru_addict: "scour blogs and websites and refer uncomplimentary posts to the mods and attack anti_Labour posts."
Isn't that what the SNP do to everyone else? I have bitter experience of it. It's one step away from the gulag. But conspiracy theory? No, just nutters.
Did you know that Celtic never win anything because the referees and the SFA are all Masonic members of Orange Lodges with strong links to the BNP, and they pray for Rangers at bedtime?
The theory is as good as yours, I think.
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#16 brigadierjohn
LOL, but a slight over-reaction I think.
The insidious referrals battle hasn't started on the latest NR thread but it really is clear that an attack of brand-new posters all saying very similar uncomplimentary things about Cameron's and Osborne's speeches and Robinson's bias has been in progress all afternoon.
I know you don't follow links within posts, but you could see for yourself on the Nick Robinson Newslog listed on the top right of these pages.
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#17 Brownedov: I'm sure you're right. But the internet is just an extension of planted newspaper stories, old-fashioned leafleting, etc., and we have to live with it.
Probably very few voters ever see these sites, so is it worth the bother?
Anyway, I'm off for dinner.
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#18 brigadierjohn
I take the point that it's an old tactic using a new medium. Politicicking was ever a grubby old business, I suppose.
Bon appetit!
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17. At 5:50pm on 30 Sep 2008, Brownedov.
after your post 15 i looked at NR thread and it certainly looks as you say.
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5. That you have not identified one solitary SNP accomplishment that contributed to the just-announced drop in crime figures speaks volumes.
And to then claim that they are "delivering results" beggars belief.
SNP: Blame anything that goes wrong on the previous Labour government but take credit for their successes.
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I don't suppose a lot these children
http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7644155.stm
are going to benefit from any of the proposed financial packages allowing the corporate bosses to cream of their bonus benefits whilst the taxpayer stumps up. So much for an economy which is based on financial manipulation of the markets.
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#21 Reluctant-Expat
That you have not identified one solitary positive step to take Scotland or the UK forward also speaks volumes.
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Why, if the crime figures are so low, are the prisons apparently bursting at the seams? Is somebody telling porkies ? So does anybody care if the neds are two to a cell ? Personally I couldn't care less if they were three to a bed, it's their choice. I suspect however that the figures are being gently massaged either by knighthood seeking Chief Constables or by a Justice Mininistry trying to please the boss. Truth at times, would be more acceptable.
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Can I suggest to those rational enough among us to have a civilised discussion and debate, Unionist and Nationalist alike, to completely ignore R-Expat; he/she is rude, offensive, and quite prepared to misuse data, a la, the nuclear debate, to further his/her ends.
If it gets ignored it will go away.
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#16 Brigadier
Lol, but I thought that you had to be in the masonic lodge to be a referee?
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#23 Brownedov
Expat is so negative about everything that he would fir in with politics this side of the pond!
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#21 Reluctant-Expact - are you serious? That's what ALL governments do. Why should the SNP be different? We still get Gordie standing up and PMQT saying that it's that bad things are all the fault of the tories (even after nearly 12 years) and the good things are all down to Labour.
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Once again that bitter reluctant expat - an apologist for the unpardonable - new labour. As I have posted before let us hope his/her reluctance does not change too much!
On the economy interesting to note that Adam Ingram MP (Labour) has his snout jammed in the trough. He trousers £50000 per annum as a consultant for a EDS- the company that makes a mess of just about everything it goes near. Ingram as former Armed Forces Minister is well placed to advise this atrocious company on defence IT contracts. He will no doubt not have too many financial worries!
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24. At 7:29pm on 30 Sep 2008, kaybraes.
you could look at it as the more in jail the less crime on the street.
if you jail a thief for 1yr then you probably stop a lot of crimes in one go.
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#27 oldnat
"Expat is so negative about everything that he would fir in with politics this side of the pond!"
Point well taken and I know I shouldn't pander to his trollish desires. It's a while since I visited "the land of the free" but I certainly see what you mean.
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Reluctant Expat you spend all of your time trying to antagonise people and bawl and shout about how everyone else is rubbish, it confirms that you are a typical Labour activist, all negativity. How incredibly dull you have become.
Its good that all parties are co-operating to get through the financial crisis, its important to get this right. However it is a pity that the Torry conference has lost its momentum as a result as it could have exposed the failings of Labour, I was looking forward to that... Ho hum..
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#32 Bramblebikes
From his posts, it's impossible to tell whether Expat is Tory or Labour.
He has a visceral hatred of Nationalism, and has been positive about only 2 things - PFI/PPP and nuclear weapons.
So clearly a right-winger, and either Labour or Tory would fit.
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#Thomas_Porter
Do you see what i mean!
The problems we are currently facing are are global problem that need a unified cure from the developed world! With the leadership of the US and the rest of the G8. Each individual nation acting alone is not going to cure the problem just delay it. Remember the phrase "america sneezes the world catches a cold", this is more like flu, and i don't mean man flu!!
The problem isn't going to cure itself and it isn't going to disapear, hard choices need to be made. The capitalist system is going to have to be bailed out by society, and regulation needs development to prevent the system overload again. I'm no great fan of an economy tied up by regulation, but one free of regulation it seems just cannot be trusted to take care of the wider picture and the long term view.
I believe that congress let party feelings get in the way and that they should have shown true courage and leadership, let us hope they will re look at their decision and either change it or hope that they don't regret it in the future.
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#7
I don’t get ‘The Irish solution’ to guarantee all deposits, creditors and loans, surely since Ireland joined the Euro they ceded such power to the ECB? So basically they are just promising to find the money if required during the next two years. Has the ECB agree to support this plan?
I mean does the Irish government actually the have 400 billion Euro that they calculate they need to offer this guarantee. Is the Irish government sitting of a pile of cash or do they hope to raise it with taxes and by borrowing. As the economy moves into recession are we sure they can find the cash if required?
A lot of the commentary and news reports say this new scheme will raise new capital for the Irish banks as people will move they money into them because of the government guarantee. Putting aside the obvious problem of this being illegal state aid. Is this not just another case of banks building capital on empty promises? I mean it seems they might need the extra deposits before they can provide the guarantee.
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#29 draboy
"As I have posted before let us hope his/her reluctance does not change too much!"
LOL and hearty agreement.
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#33 oldnat
I seem to recall some anti-Tory jibes way back suggesting s/hes from the NuLab wing, but I agree it's hard to tell.
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SKaufman:
To be honest I would not put this down as a 'problem', we all knew what could happen with lax regulations and we knew (I knew anyway) that certain players especailly from the richer countries in the world were taking huge risks. Like you said, "America sneezes the world catches a cold". It's their problem that has a backlash against the rest of the world, particularly Britain since we appear to be connected heavily to America. Have you noticed the Asian countries? They have not suffered the losses that Europe and North America have. The developed world was careless. I don't think the economy will be tied up. There will be regulation but they will only put in the regulation they had before.
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#21 Oh Reluctant how I love to make your blood boil.
I'm glad you continue to hail the great achievements of our nationalist administration and the benefits this has brought to the people of our nation and the world at large!
Clearly you are a true patriot and a gentleman after the heart of this forum!
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#35 mcjbrown
The EU will study the Irish proposal to ascertain if state aid is involved.
However the Taoiseach has announced that no state aid is involved -
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Oldnat
He is Labour, the Tories have some constructive ideas, admittedly they have been borrowed from Scotland.
Expat has no ability to offer constructive ideas, just rhetoric.
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21. At 6:54pm on 30 Sep 2008, Reluctant-Expat wrote:
5. That you have not identified one solitary SNP accomplishment that contributed to the just-announced drop in crime figures speaks volumes.
And to then claim that they are "delivering results" beggars belief.
SNP: Blame anything that goes wrong on the previous Labour government but take credit for their successes.
That is the first rule of Government!
This whole rescue package confuses me. On one hand I understand the need to stop banks going under. But then you wonder why the hell we are bailing out shareholders. Should the banks not be approaching their shareholders first?
Oh, silly me, bank execs tend to hold lots of shares in their banks........
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Do you think that the amount it effects individual economies is down to the stage their at in the Market development, for example heavy industry, Light industry, service etc.
I guess the relationship between business and society is like an relationship, you both need room to breath but it's good to know what the other is thinking/doing most of the time at least.
I'm afraid i don't really get what the Irish plan is! How is he saying he can guarantee things without putting the tax payers at risk of paying the bad debt! Shareholders are only liable for the amount of their shares and no more, and come last in the list of people who would recieve payment if the bank was to go bust! They would probably get nothing and would be liable to pay no extra, how does that solve the problem!
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#40 oldnat
After writing my post I had a look in both the Irish Times and Financial Times. It seems to me that the ECB is unhappy that the Irish are taking this course as they want to work on a European wide plan. However it also seems that the Irish government had little choice as Irish bank's shares where tanking. There will probably be a cost both politically and economically for Ireland. So maybe this is an imperfect but necessary response by the Irish.
Are you saying the statement “the reputation of the state so that they can gain access to funds” the Irish government is offering a promise rather than hard cash? If so then I think we could agree that this is not the wonder cure it’s billed as, but more a case of the Irish government backed into a corner taking desperate action to stop a bad situation turning into a disaster. Also if it is a promise that no depositors will lose any money than how is different to the line taken by the British government to do what is required?
Getting back to the issue of Scotland and independence which lets be honest is what this forum is about. It seems to me that some have implied that an independent Scotland unfretted by the shackles of the union would avoid the global economic crisis just as Ireland has. Well I don’t think Ireland has or Scotland could. Also I think that Gordon Brown (not a relative) specifically dealing with this crisis is doing a good job.
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The main parties are "cooperating" to bail out the banks. Isn't there an alternative? For them obviously not - not suprising since there isn't a fag paper between them on all the real issues.
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#44 mcjbrown (10.30 pm in the USA)
There's not too much to choose between any of the parties in any Westernised country - all subscribe to the neo-liberal consensus that got us into this mess.
Apparently, Ireland has since 2001 been stashing 1% of their GNP in a reserve fund. Countries that did this have a cushion against the hard times.
I don't think this influences the independence argument one way or another, since it would depend on what an independent Scottish Government would have done had it been in existence during the last 10 - 20 years, and no-one can know what would have been the case.
All we know for sure is that the UK Government didn't provide a reserve against the downturn.
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#44 mcjbrown
"However it also seems that the Irish government had little choice as Irish bank's shares where tanking."
Absolutely. The EU treaties are not intended to be suicide pacts - one of the many reasons why other EU states take much more cavalier views of EU regulations than does the UK government.
#46 oldnat
"I don't think this influences the independence argument one way or another, since it would depend on what an independent Scottish Government would have done had it been in existence during the last 10 - 20 years, and no-one can know what would have been the case."
As you know, I'm a federalist, but had an independent Scotland existed long enough to have joined the Euro it would surely have been in much better shape, as indeed would the UK had "Duff" Gordon not been so blinkered about it.
Otherwise, I agree with the rest of your post - especially the "neo-liberal consensus" bit.
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Brian, how could Salmond discuss something with Des Browne, it would be like having a chat with a parrot, Browne is liable to only say what Gordon told him to. I don't think he's actually capable of making up a statement on his own.
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We need banks that support the development of the Scottish economy. That doesn't include either HBOS or RBS.
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Brian,
you mentioned the wish to return stability to the markets. For years the so-called "people's party" (now the bankers' party) said they had ended Tory boom and bust, check out old "Labour" election literature. What a lot of auld mince that has turned out to be! Proves that Broon is neither entitled to claim he was the greatest Chancellor (Chancer more like) since sliced breid as he is certainly not to blame for the current capitalist crisis.
Bailing out the super-rich bankers, nationalising their bad debts - how about nationalising the massive debts of working class people building up under the current tenure of our "New Labour" masters !
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Good to see the young nats all upset by my posts.
By the way, discrediting the endless ridiculous anti-UK claims and the so-called 'arguments' for independence, plus reminding people of the duplicity of Salmond and his divisive mob is what I do.
For example:
The SNP claim they are the reason crime figures have dropped for the tenth consecutive year....when their only accomplishment is 48 extra police in the whole of Scotland.
The young nats repeatedly claim that "independence is inevitable".....despite there being zero evidence to support that claim; zero mass petitions despite many email campaigns, zero major marches, only two comments a day on a heavily-publicised pro-independence website, zero growth in support in the polls and a huge SNP-to-Labour post-conference swing in a recent poll, showing this much-trumpeted "tectonic shift to the SNP" is as bogus as everything else claimed by the nats.
Salmond said he would have advanced ?100bn to save HBOS if he had the power. Thankfully he hasn't got the power to merrily borrow the equivalent of 80% of Scotland's entire GDP to save just one Edinburgh-based bank.
The nats on here claim tens of billions should be spent on building a third main railway line to Edinburgh and Glasgow, seemingly oblivious to any consideration of market demand or investment returns.
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#48 kaybraes
LOL and very true, although unlike McAvity the ventriloquist he might manage an occasional: "It wisnae me."
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I have a genuine open question to ask on the financial crisis...
Is there any country whose banking industry has remained relatively unscathed by the current crisis? If so, what special conditions or government policy made it so?
I have no agenda in asking this other than curiosity.
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#50
An old rancher is talking about politics with a young man from the city. He compares a politician to a "post turtle". The young man doesn't understand and asks him what a post turtle is.
The old man says, "When you're driving down a country road and you see a fence post with a turtle balanced on top, that's a post turtle. You know he didn't get up there by himself. He doesn't belong there; he can't get anything done while he's up there; and you just want to help the poor, dumb thing down."
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42. I suspect the bail-out comes with conditions.
Also, the bail-out mostly consists of central banks providing loan facilities to replace the shutdown in inter-bank lending. Barring any defaults (unlikely as mergers or nationalisations will again be used to prevent them), we humble taxpayers will see almost all of our money recovered.
Many banks have already had rights issues to squeeze more money out of the shareholders. That was at the start of the 'crunch'.
I'm bemused by the US struggling to agree on their $700bn bail-out. The UK and the ECB have stumped up such amounts already (on a per capita basis, obviously!) without complaint or disaster.
Despite our major presence in the global financial economy (and especially in the US), the UK has got off astonishingly lightly so far. A couple of mergers, two small nationalisations (many lessons clearly learnt from the NR fiasco) and, hopefully, minimal redundancies. I know the nats will now wail and scream from the rooftops about HBOS's impact on Edinburgh, but we have not suffered anywhere near the strategic meltdown that is hitting the US.
The UK financial industry was already one of the biggest in the world, second only to the US. With Wall Street getting hammered, confidence being lost and an Enron-style regulatory backlash imminent, the UK could well take that 'world leader' crown when this all calms down.
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53. I don't think any country or region has come out unscathed. With the US/EU alone making up over half the world's economy, very few financial industries will not have invested in either.
The Islamic banking sector has only suffered a minor downturn compared to 'capitalist' banking, mostly due to ideological restrictions on lending and financial investments.
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There's a nice meaty new thread about Tory plans for Scotland. Time to move on, methinks.
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#53
Actually there is a very good example of a country that has escaped pretty much unscathed by this so-called "Global" credit crisis. (Aparently the globe is USA, UK and Japan)
France!
Yes, the cheese eating surrender monkeys are more or less laughing.
Their banks, despite names like Credit Lyonais, are very careful when it comes to lending.
Only about a quarter of their banking activity is related to investment banking and dealer-broker activity, the rest (3/4) is all to do with retail banking.
And even the locals are as conservative when it comes to debt - it's only 47% GDP.
Buy now pay later is almost unheard of - their credit cards function like debit cards, if you don't have the money, you can't get.
But on the flip side of that there are less French householders, more people rent and don't expect to go around to your french mate's home and find a 52" inch widescreen TV and the latest Bang and Olafsen.
Vive la France!
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Many thanks Expat and Blackivar.
Lesson is to become a French Muslim?
(joke!)
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