The novelty of Hustings
For those in search of resonance, the venue offered pointers. Here, at the Apex Hotel in Edinburgh's Grassmarket, Wendy Alexander had set out her vision for the future of the Labour Party in Scotland.
Those with longer memories might have recalled that this was also the location of choice when David McLetchie defeated Phil Gallie to win the leadership of the Scottish Conservatives at the advent of devolution.
This was different, though: the Edinburgh hustings for the three contenders seeking to succeed Ms Alexander.
There was a decent turn-out. A few laughs such as when the chair invited young people to pose questions. Some of the self-selecting hands raised in response struggled to meet the definition "young".
There was little in the way of overt, sharp distinction between the candidates, at least on the night.
Perhaps Andy Kerr has laid the greatest stress on Scottish party autonomy: He mentioned that. Perhaps Cathy Jamieson has stressed her union and Left credentials: those were, gently, on display. Perhaps Iain Gray has been most vigorous in stressing the urgent need for co-operation across the movement, including Westminster: that came through.
But, you know, all three talked of Labour values, all three talked of the need to talk, to communicate with the membership, all three insisted that Labour must sound less negative, must advance a positive policy offer.
All three condemned Alex Salmond, claiming that he was out to "use Scotland" for his own Nationalist ends, not to serve her needs. All three used variations of that formula.
Alex Salmond was Banquo at the feast: reviled, yes, but feared too. Indeed, Cathy Jamieson, who deputised on occasion for Wendy Alexander at First Minister's Questions, said she had proven expertise in tackling Mr Salmond. The others stressed their willingness to be combative.
In truth, the mood of the evening struck me as tentative, somewhat provisional. Labour in Scotland is still coming to terms with defeat. It is too soon to expect certainty about attempts to revive.
Some of the questioners last night seemed to be to be seeking reassurance in the midst of anxiety. They wanted to hear how the contenders would engage with the grassroots, the local authorities, the unions. The equivalent of a political hug. They were duly comforted.
They wanted to hear too that there would be an end to bickering between Labour at Holyrood and Westminster. They were suitably assuaged.
To be fair, however, the questioners also wanted to hear evidence of policy thought: action on housing, employment rights, training. Again, the answers were inevitably somewhat tentative. They would press for this, seek assurances on that, strive to build coalitions on the other. Welcome to opposition.
So tentative, provisional. But healthy for all that. More than one speaker noted, with approval, the value of open debate, of a contest, of full OMOV voting. Novelty, indeed.
I'm 
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~05~RS~)
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"Labour in Scotland is still coming to terms with defeat. It is too soon to expect certainty about attempts to revive."
Surely so long as "Duff" Gordon pulls all the strings from Westmidden there is little hope of either London Labour or Scottish Labour recovering.
Labour must devolve themselves into separate parties to stand any chance, which seems impossible before Brown leaves the stage.
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RIP Scottish Labour; we kent ye well. We didn't exactly love you, especially latterly, but we kent ye.
These three still-twitching corpuscles of a body decidely impolitic still have not got the message. They say the right things: '...all three insisted that Labour must sound less negative ...' But, although they know the words, they don't understand the meaning: 'all three condemned Alex Salmond, claiming that he was out to "use Scotland" for his own Nationalist ends, not to serve her needs.'
As long as Labour's rhetoric is all about what other parties do, it is an ex-parrot. To tell us what the SNP is doing wrong is pining for the fjords. It is not politics which will wash with the people of Scotland. Tell us what Labour can do right, and you'll have our attention.
Wee Nichola Sturgeon has learned this lesson; in the days of her continual bleating chorus of 'the minister must resign' she lost my sympathy entirely. But she's stopped doing that - well she would, she's the minister now. But the whole of the SNP cabinet has stopped looking over their shoulders at what other parties have done or might do. They are concentrating on building a better Scotland.
The idea that you can distract the voters attention from your own failings by pointing at your opposition - 'look miss, they started it' - is just wrong. Outdated. The mantra of defeat, decline, dissolution. And yet that is still Scottish Labour's only mantra, because they have nothing of their own to hold up.
They may be nailed to the perch, but this is one parrot which will not fly.
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Brian,
But, you know, all three talked of Labour values, all three talked of the need to talk, to communicate with the membership, all three insisted that Labour must sound less negative, must advance a positive policy offer.
Perhaps Labour should spend a bit more time talking to the electorate instead of the Labour membership.
"Old Labour" as it is in Scotland needs to start appealing to the wider electorate which it won't do if it continues to hold hands with the unions.
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#2 Simon_Brooke
LOL, but all too true
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Good post Brian, nice to hear your take on the hustings performances.
That's the way, a clear positive message to woo the voters. During this period of earnest "reflection" and "listening" haven't they come up with anything better than: "Be afraid, be very afraid!"?! We want positive, progressive ideas from you, not ludicrous scaremongering!
A case of people hearing what they want to hear I guess Brian! Let's wait and see how long the tranquil waters remain unrippled, shall we? Given the welcome statements on autonomy from the three candidates, how long before the ScotLab Nessie breaches the surface?
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A sense of novelty,yes, a fourth way and a return too being the peoples party by choice.
Should be a cracking conference in sept.
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"Labour values" ??????????????????????????
When you see the likes of Gordon Brown trying to out-Tory the Tories and glad hand Margaret Thatcher you know exactly how worthless a phrase 'Labour values' has become.
Labour has no place in Scotland, none what-so-ever.
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"All three condemned Alex Salmond, claiming that he was out to "use Scotland" for his own Nationalist ends, not to serve her needs. All three used variations of that formula."
Whatever your political perspective, I think you have to pause at this little gem and wonder at it, and then rub your eyes and check to see if it really is there and, having confirmed that it actually is there despite every probability that it shouldn't be, then check to see if you have read it properly and, if you've read it properly - and here comes the hard part - then check to see whether you've understood it properly on the assumption that it actually means anything at all in the first place. What are SNP ends if not to serve the needs of Scotland? What would the point be in its existence if that were not so? Ergo, advancing its own electoral interests can only amount to the same thing so far as Mr Salmond and his followers are concerned.
So this was Scottish Labour having some kind of brain-storming session, was it? Give up now, chaps. Those brains are not worth storming.
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Brian
The main thing I like about your reporting is your ability to get inside the story, to describe the "feel" of an event or process.
I particularly liked your "The equivalent of a political hug."
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Can't resist the irony of Labour's finest convening at the 'Apex'!!
Well, I suppose Heartbreak Hotel was just a song after all - and there's unlikely to be one named 'the Pits'. :-)
Indeed they are still struggling to come to terms with defeat. However, we can be reasonably confident it is a status to which they will become well accustomed!
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#7 Minuend
I note the BritNats are having some fun with the Alex Salmond: Scotland 'didn't mind' Thatcher economics story.
Salmond seems to be too smart to have made this comment to Total Politics magazine accidentally.
Has he made the calculation that Labour are as dead and buried as necessary, and that it's time to pick off the Scottish Tory vote?
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I second ALL of the above! There may be some truth in the accusation that this has become a bit of an anti-NuLab love-in....
As to 'using' A nation for nationalist ends....the term "oxymoron" drifts into and out of focus. perhaps the proper term resembles tautology?
Slainte!
ed
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#8: superb Sandy_Shore.
It's fine to question the methods of the SNP, and we should definitely be hearing positive alternatives from somebody (anybody!), but to question their motives doesn't hold water in my opinion.
As you say, the SNP exists primarily to gain independence for Scotland, simply because it believes it to be better for Scotland (whether it would be better is of course open to debate). Those are the "Nationalist ends" (or rather beginnings!).
Conversely, in these post-ideological, "third way" times, Labour and Conservative seem to exist solely to take turns at having power. Hence the tiresome "you said X, therefore it must be wrong, we have all the answers" that we tend to get from them. Hopefully the SNP's recent taste of power won't corrupt them in quite the same way.
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Who do they think they are kidding? After the so called honeymoon period with the new leader they will be fighting and back stabbing as always.
The present lot of MP's will never accept any form of leadership from Holyrood, and it will not matter a jot if Brown remains leader or not, they will just not accept it. The platitudes coming from the mouths of the candidates are just that, a lot of meaningless soundbites to try and hide the fact that the word "comrade" means the exact opposite when it comes to this lot.
Their so called hustings are meaningless to the majority of the population and do not deserve the coverage they are getting. I hope it is over soon and we can forget about them.
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Ed Iglehart
I've done a bit more experimentation with HTML and published a revised list of my findings on the New ways into blogs thread.
You're most welcome to clone it and/or tidy it up onto your Heart of the Universe site, if you wish.
I have finally had an email response to my report regarding coding of characters above HTML &127; but that was merely to say it's been passed on to the techies, so I'm not holding my breath.
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#11 oldnat
An interesting article your link takes us to.
Once again Wee Eck shows the rest how lacking they are.
Brown, Cameron, the other one whats his name and all the Scottish hopefuls couldn't match his intellegence, guile or leadership in a decade of Sundays!
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#11 oldnat
Thanks for the link. I am certain Salmond is far too smart an operator to have made the remarks accidentally.
His "One of the reasons Scotland didn't take to Lady Thatcher was because of that. We didn't mind the economic side so much. But we didn't like the social side at all." is pretty much the consensus that was being developed at the end of Brian's previous thread, and should play well across the political spectrum, apart from NuLab control freaks.
I certainly can't see the SNP being in coalition with the Tories in Holyrood or Westmidden, but I could imagine an inverse of the constructive Salmond / Goldie relationship occurring at Westmidden when Cameron reaches the top of the greasy pole.
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Political Betting is suggesting that the membership may be going for wee Cathy, and that it's become a traditional Left/Right contest, thus squeezing out Kerr.
People in crisis often revert to the comforts of the certainties of the past when they felt comfortable. If PB is right and they've headed back to old ideology instead of recognising that Kerr offered the possibility of a new relationship with London, then they'll lose the last of their aspirational voters.
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I'm sure Labour well deserve the kicking they're getting here. Certainly they're going nowhere with the candidates on offer.
What really interests me is the longer-term future. Let's imagine it's the Eve of Independence. What next?
Would the SNP remain a party. Are there SNP people who, with the independence issue out of the way, could find common ground with Cathy Jamieson? Or indeed Annabelle Goldie?
In the name of unity, such as it is, the hard left in Labour are keeping quiet. Do they see a future with like-minded people in the SNP. They must exist, despite Salmond's brilliance in holding them together.
In their present position, I doubt if the SNP would even concede the possibility of making common ground with Labourites or Tories.
But I think some unlikely alliances - and some unthinkable ones too - could emerge.
All these questions have been asked before, the same doubts and fears expressed. Usually they are answered with platitudes, from "wait and see" to "the people will decide."
But I'd like to hear, from SNP activists and policy wonks, how the party might split and where the balance of opinion lies. We can't just leave it all to chance, can we?
However well the SNP is doing in power, independence still looks like a pig in a poke until clear answers are given.
I hope nobody wants to interpret this as some sort of anti-SNP diatribe. It's not. I genuinely want to know what people think.
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Brownedov,
I'll have a look.
Oldnat, May I add my thanks for the excellent article, and my respect and admiration of "Wee Eck" to that of the assembled company...
Slainte!
ed
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Re All of the above
This is becoming more of an SNP lovein than anything else. A couple of points come to mind from reading the above:
I find it a little bit rich to brand Labour the party of opposition for opposition sake. During the last parliamnet there was no greater exponent of this tactic than the SNP. They pursued this tatic on a daily basis.
True the candiates for labour leader don't inspire, but those of an SNP persuasion should look a little further ahead:
When labour elect a new leader and that leader gets on with the job, which is massive, the media will tire of this story. Then the party of government will come into focus: None of the controversial parts of the SNP manifesto have been progressed yet.
LIT is a policy full of flaws, it will be exposed and will be impossible to implement without massive change. Won't ever be popular.
Then there is the raft of already broken promises which have been largely ignored
In my area the crumbling disgusting secondary school that was promised to be replaced is now not going to be replaced. SNP aren't popular here after making and breaking a clear promise. By the way its the councils fault, just to be clear.
There are lots more and I suspect lots more to come. Relying on Labours incompetence is not a good strategy for the future.
Whowever wins role as opposition leader has some good targets to hit the government on, the track record of broken promises is slowly but surely building.
Sadly this is all to typical irrespective of what ever party is in power.
That is why blogs like this need to keep just a shred of objectivity.
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#18 oldnat
If Ms.Jamieson wins then Labour are dead in the water.
Cannon fodder for Wee Eck, is that the best they can do?
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#22 Jake-the-saltire
Please describe exactly what the mistake in odds is that you refer to on the previous thread.
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#19 brigadier
Fair question. Unfortunately the only fair answer is "Who knows?"
But speculation is always fun so .......
Scenario 1 - Salmond negotiates the kind of Confederal UK that a number of us prefer. The SNP will immediately schism, with numbers defecting to the FSP. The enlarged FSP will decline over time to the position of the SNP in the '60s but will be "available" to Scots if they want to push for full independence in the future. The Tories will remain as a moderate right of centre party, the SNP will be the moderate left of centre party, the Liberals (real ones) will be the decentralist voice of the North and South.
Scenario 2 - Salmond negotiates full "Independence within Europe". The Tories will remain as a moderate right of centre party, the SNP will be the moderate left of centre party, the Liberals (real ones) will be the decentralist voice of the North and South.
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#23
you started correctly but then went on to say 4 pounds return for 11 pound bet when odds 11/4.
Won't be going to your bookie shop
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For the sake of perspective, may i just say that I'm very pro-independence, but somewhat rather anti-party, though a longtime admirer of Wee Eck, along with others of diverse persuasion, including the Presiding Officer (my constituency MSP), the irritating Mr Gallie, Mr Sheridan (at times), Alastair Morgan (again, at times), Robin Harper, Chris Ballance, David Steele, AND Charlie Kennedy, and others....
People before parties, but I note very few, if any, Labourites have made their way onto the list, so let's add Dennis Healy and latterly Tony Benn just to round things out.
;-) and Slainte!
ed
P.S. Brownedov, Duly edited.
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#21 north highlander Wouldn't disagree with you, if we apply it to most parties. Oddly the only ones not really playing that game at the moment are the Tories, but I think that is simply good politics from Auntie Annabel. Most people are fairly tired of it already! We disagree here. Of course manifesto commitments have not been passed. That's the beauty of minority government! We need to get past the Westminster model where a party gets in to power on a minority of the vote, then shoves its policies through regardless even when they turn out to be poorly thought out.
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Brigadier,
And why not?;-)
ed
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#24 oldnat
"Scenario 1 - Salmond negotiates the kind of Confederal UK that a number of us prefer."
Dissappointing oldnat. I thought you were a Nationalist. Who do you include as the number of us?
#21 northhighlander
"This is becoming more of an SNP lovein than anything else."
Welcome to the party!
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#21 Northighlander
Are you sure that the Local Authority are not blaming the SNP Government for their own shortcomings in managing their cash for this school building failure? Most councils are not exactly covering themselves in glory on that aspect!
But to this Hustings. I do not see any policies at all, let alone those which put Scotland's interests first. And they seem somehow to claim that the SNP are hung up on Independence. What do they think they have been doing? Where are their Scotland first policies.?
There appears to be no answer to the strings being pulled from London - in fact they struck me as puppets waiting for the puppet master to tweak the strings.
And as an afterthought to a previous thread, some voters were contacted by phone on Friday, according to an article in today's Scotsman. They were Labour voters. They were not best pleased. Looks like FORMER voters.
As said the voters are the ones putting crosses on the voting paper - rile them and reap the consequences.
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#19
There are certainly many people within the SNP who could make common cause with Cathy Jamieson. Post independence, I might be one of them (or I might find myself in another part of the forest with Robin Harper and co). There are certainly come people within the SNP who could make common cause, post independence, with Annabel Goldie - who, much as I dislike her party, has emerged as a politician of stature.
But I suspect that if we achieve independence, then the fact of having achieved independence will earn for the SNP considerable loyalty; and that consequently the SNP will continue to be the major party of the centre left in Scotland for some time. And, given that the centre left is Scotland's political heartland, that probably means the SNP would continue to govern.
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#29 Jake
I am a Nationalist. I passionately believe in the sovereign right of the Scottish people to decide their own destiny. That established, I'm quite happy to share some aspects of that sovereignty with other countries for our mutual benefit. That's why I believe in being part of the European Union - hence I vote SNP not FSP.
However, I'm also pragmatic and a gradualist. I'm quite happy to make the journey step by step. First destroy the Treaty of Union, then form a loose Confederation with other parts of the British Isles to ease the transition in international matters like membership of the EU.
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#24 oldnat: Thanks, I think. Everything looks suspiciously moderate in the new Scotland. I think I prefer Scenario 1.
I notice Labour ceases to exist? Presumably they will schism also? No overall control would be good. Sounds a bit Utopian, eh?
#26 Ed: Nice mix of maverick and intellectual. I like Gallie, too. Lord Steele (don't bother with the title, just call me Sir David), if he lightens up a bit, Sheridan and Harper could be our conscience, Healy our thug (very necessary) and Benn our procedural statesman.
Great, but how to we dump the remainder?
Galloway for oil minister? :-)
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# 22 Jake-the-saltire
It's looking a bit petty and vindictive of you to point out a mistake but not that I corrected it myself only minutes later (#541).
I'm sure you wouldn't want people to think you're just being petty and vindictive so I look forward to reading your apology for failing to point out that I also provided an almost instant correction.
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#28 Ed: Fascinating link. I will try to read it at leisure. A bit daunting, though.
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#10 Dougie-Dubh
Musing on your amusing post, I couldn't help taking a look at some booking sites to see if there's anywhere more appropriate.
My favourite would be the Balmoral Hotel (London branch is Brown's Hotel), but some possible alternatives:
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#19: I'm neither an SNP activist nor a policy wonk but have sometimes wondered about this too.
In theory, post-independence it's job done, time to disband for the SNP. But in the real world I suspect Simon_Brooke (#31) is closer to the truth. Apart from anything else I imagine the SNP would want to guard against any unionist movement that persisted, at least in the short to medium-term.
#21: "Relying on Labours incompetence is not a good strategy for the future."
Well said. And relying on the SNP's incompetence (or scariness) is not a good strategy for the present! Wouldn't it be great if we had several parties with positive ideas to choose from? (craziness I know!)
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#26 Once again ed you've nailed it.
For me Charles Kennedy was one of the good guys whose problems could have been addressed I'm sure without being kicked into touch.
If only politicians were human.
#32
you had me worried for a moment oldnat
#33 brigadier
Does this mean you are a nationalist after all as I suspected previously?
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#33 brigadier
Ah, but it's Utopia not Erehwon!
I didn't bother mentioning the thousand or so Socialists (including the remnants of Labour) who will probably be in a thousand different parties.
Not "suspiciously" moderate - that's the reality of Scottish politics. There's not a cigarette paper between the belief systems of most MSPs. What's the argument about (excluding constitutional change)? trams now v trams later : funding of local government. These are just managerial issues, not substantive political ones.
#26 Ed
If wee Eck wasn't already in your list, he'd have to be added for his humour. This from him when asked about G Brown -"Gordon does not have his problems to seek," he said. "I have two pieces of advice. Change his policies and cheer up, for God's sake."
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#34 ooops sorry
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#31 Simon_Brooke: Thanks for your reply. It's extremely interesting. You think Salmond will continue to lead, as PM, and hold the party together?
It would be a monumental achievement for any politician in the circumstances.
My own view is that personal ambition would surface quite quickly, and factions would attempt to follow natural instincts after several years of loyal conformity for the cause.
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#37 forfar-loon
"Wouldn't it be great if we had several parties with positive ideas to choose from?"
You are Greetings_Earthlings and I claim my 5 intergalactic credits!
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#37 forfar-loon: Hi buddy! Thanks for your reply. There may be a few old unionists left lamenting how it might have been. But if independence has to come, I'll live with it and continue to support quality people regardless of party.
What a joy to get civil, intelligent responses from thinking people, who might disagree with me on a host of issues.
#38 Jake: You're having fun with me today, eh? Never a Nationalist. A proud Scot and a pragmatist. If I could help create a better Union, that would be my first choice. But I have no aspirations to martyrdom.
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#26 Ed Iglehart
Extremely good post re people rather than parties.
Thanks also for updating your hints page. It's very useful to have an external link when people start running into problems getting their posts accepted.
I'd have come back sooner if Dougie-Dubh's "Heartbreak Hotel" in his #10 hadn't set me off on a tangent.
Cin-cin
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#39 oldnat: I hope we're not going nowhere with this! I desperately hope you are right. But the cynic within tells me that human beings, given a sniff of power, start to create edifices to protect it.
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The Chinese Embassy report that Brown plans "to capture lessons learned" from the Beijing Games.
So nae Saltires in London then?
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#40 Jake-the-saltire
Thanks for having the decency to say sorry.
Since the mistake was corrected almost immediately oldnat apparently still found it useful.
In explaining how to read odds, there was, naturally, no intention on my part to encourage betting of any sort.
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Wow! A labour hustings and the nat's go all mulder and scully on us,well Oldnat, you have layed your cards on the table there,a future federal uk.
Salmond negotiates full independence "WITHIN EUROPE"
Be careful,this type of talk wont win you votes.
Since when did the snp become the champions of left to centre politics?
student debt, affordable homes,new schools,prescription charges,council tax,outstanding and half a term gone.
More like the right wing party,that supported the conservatives in 74,79,and 2008.
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#27 oldnat
All good stuff, but the last bit on minority government is extremely important for the future. Nobody should expect any single person or party to come up with all perfect, ready-to-implement solutions at all times, but the Westmidden system allows idiots to steamroller crazy ideas through without effective checks except - sadly - for the House of Lords.
It's sad that nobody at Westmidden isn't looking at what a minority government can achieve and suggesting that maybe the experiment should be repeated further South.
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#45 brigadier
I think I'm a nihilist rather than a cynic. Of course, you are right about edifices - the Union is a good example! Edifices to protect the "great and the good" are all the better for a keg of gunpowder!
I stick to my father's idea of the "boot theory" of politics (developed in the Libyan Desert with his mates in the 1st Army). "All politicians start out with good intentions, but become corrupted by power. The only salvation is to boot them out on a regular basis." Hence he voted Labour in 1945, and against the governing party in every election thereafter.
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#42 Brownedov: Not guilty m'lud, but :o)
#45 buddy: I fear you may be right, but as an avowed optimist I'm determined to only be disappointed after it happens, not beforehand as well!
#49 Brownedov: "It's sad that nobody at Westmidden isn't looking at what a minority government can achieve and suggesting that maybe the experiment should be repeated further South."
Patience! It's not outside the realms of possibility that a coalition of 3 parties will be needed for a majority after the next GE (Lab/Tories + LibDems + SNP?). Hard to see such a coalition coalescing though...
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#51 forfar-loon
Patience is certainly necessary for anyone hoping for electoral reform for Westmidden.
What really irks me is that Bliar was just nicely messing things up for NuLab to the point where a "no overall control" House of Cards was looking probable. Brown has since been behaving like a Tory mole to the point where a Tory majority looks almost inevitable.
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Re
"All three condemned Alex Salmond, claiming that he was out to "use Scotland" for his own Nationalist ends, not to serve her needs."
This is only tautological if you take Scotland as meaning the Scottish nation, rather than the people. Obviously nationalists wish to use the state apparatus (preferably one that is sovereign) to improve people according to their beliefs. Hence oppressive alcohol legislation to tackle a 'national' problem and saltires for every primary school.
The criticism isn't that valid coming from Labour, though, since they don't have any alternative principles, and aren't likely to find any.
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Anaxim,
To me, the people are the Nation. Care to clarify?Slainte
ed
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I don't agree. What if the people lose interest in national identity and the nation dwindles in importance? A nationalist would be appalled at that outcome, even if 'the people' are going along with it.
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Speculation again
If the conservatives win the next GE and that much speculated deal between Salmond and Cameron, on a greater Scottish constitution is done(fiscal control within the uk) Surely there will be no hidden place for the pirates of false policy.
Re- No overall control party, will the three unionist parties close ranks on the snp and form a coalition government at the next GE,(claire Short has already hinted at this possibility)
Independence a done deal,only on speculation........
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Re 49
"Nobody should expect any single person or party to come up with all perfect, ready-to-implement solutions at all times"
Excuse me, but i thought that the purpose of politicians was to create solutions to the problems of the day. Certainly they all pretend to do this at election time, all the manifesto's paint a complete picture.
Re 30
Fraid the council is not to blame this time, the budget for this works was not provided at the last settlement. When pushed it has been put in the same pile as the A9 works.
Re 27
"Of course manifesto commitments have not been passed. That's the beauty of minority government!"
Fine if they require a parliamentry vote. However most broken promises are ministerial decisions on resource allocation, so that excuse really won't do.
We have a new government playing the same tired games with the same pile of broken promises.
But really its just the same gruel with a different label on the tin.
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With friends like him ................
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#57 northhighlander
"Excuse me, but i thought that the purpose of politicians was to create solutions to the problems of the day. Certainly they all pretend to do this at election time, all the manifesto's paint a complete picture."
So you want to absolve yourself of all responsibility for society via one X in a box every 4 or 5 years? Of course all parties paint a complete picture, but are you saying that the one you chose last time was perfect in every possible way and that you believe that every member of that party should follow the party line on every occasion?
I sincerely hope the answer is NO to both questions, but in case it is YES I can only presume that you are not only a NuLab supporter but that you support 42 days (not in manifesto), no vote on EU constitution (against manifesto), continued control of domestic matters in England like Education by MPs from Scottish constituencies (not in manifesto) and continued control of devolved matters by the SNP (in manifesto, though SNP not named specifically). If not, I would greatly appreciate your arguments re why not.
Whether so or not, perhaps you would describe the "ladders of social mobility" NuLab have built since 2005 to fulfill their manifesto commitment (p19) that: "In our third term we will build new ladders of social mobility and advancement on the firm foundations of stability, investment and growth."
If you don't believe in electoral reform, could you please explain the manifesto commitment (p110) that: "Labour remains committed to reviewing the experience of the new electoral systems – introduced for the devolved administrations, the European Parliament and the London Assembly. A referendum remains the right way to agree any change for Westminster."
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#58 oldnat
Point taken, but unless I missed something on the last thread, there's an article in yesterday's Grauniad that is actually relevant to today's thread. It's Will Woodward's If no one can beat David Cameron, why remove Gordon Brown?.
The point, surely, is the very distinct difference between views of NuLab in Scotland and England (and also possibly Wales) yet they cannot be addressed unless NuLab itself devolves, yet that devolution cannot take place so long as Brown is leader unless he stands in the by-election for Motherwell & Wishaw and the winner of this bunfight steps aside. Sitting PM gets nul points in by-election, perhaps?
In the same artice, Woodward explains the 101%: "To one decimal point the Tories were 44.0% (so 44%), Labour 28.8% (so 29%), Lib Dems 18.7% (so 19%) and other parties 8.5% (so 9%)."
ICM still haven't published the details and neither have MORI re last night's poll.
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#57 I've just discovered the difference between SNP and Labour voters...
SNP voters expect their politicians to try their best and in turn try their best for the country in turn...
Labour voters expect their politicians to offer fantastic solutions to the worlds problems so they are obsolved of responsibility for the worlds woes!
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#61 BrianSH
You're right about most SNP voters and most Liberal, LibDem and even Tory voters, but I think the jury must be "out" on NuLab until we get a meaningful response to my #59. I'm not holding my breath that it'll be anytime soon.
Where's grandantidote when you need him?
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Well, it doesn't really matter who wins since President Salmond - sorry First Minister - is at the peak of popularity.
Labour would do well to regroup and try some long-term planning, since as some have already pointed out, as long as Gordon Brown is PM then they have basically had it.
Take the further punishment almost certainly guaranteed by another by-election wipe out and wait for the SNP to start failing. They already have started but Labour is currently at ground zero so Alex and Co can basically get away with anything.
But whoever takes the rein of Scottish Labour must start asking the SNP harsh questions, rather than trying to pick off points here and there. Things like energy costs, health, crime. And keep pushing the point about the original plan of re-regulating buses, only to stop just after they received a donation - totally coincidental of course - by Brian Souter of Stagecoach.
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Labour outraged as Salmond excuses Thatcherite economics Any Unionist want to comment?
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#63 Neil_Small147
So what's the Tory strategy? Copy Brown and just do lots of listening, perhaps?
#64 oldnat
Not a unionist, but couldn't resist having a go.
An honest paper would have had the headline: "Outrageous Gray doesn't understand difference between economic and social policy"
Mind you, his Supreme Leader failed to make that distinction in his photo-op with the Iron Lady, so maybe Salmond is egging the hapless three on to hoist themselves with their own petards.
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#63 Neil
Sounds like opposition for the sake of it rather than constructive opposition. A bit difficult for Labour to do since as with so many things they did nothing to reverse the 1986 de-regulation. Only the Greens have been consistent over bus de-regulation.Complain about this comment
#63
Better to be President than vice-President.
Labour are still playing party politics and will put Westminster's agenda first before looking towards Scotlands best interests. They are still crying over the spilt milk which is turning even sourer as time marches on.
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#64 oldnat
Of course Alex Salmond is going to defend Thatcherite economics - he is an economist.
In the 1980s, loss-making heavy industries throughout the UK were being subsidised by the taxpayer to the point of being unsustainable and frankly when it costs more to bring coal out of the ground than it's ever going to make selling it then continuing to support a dying industry becomes economic insanity.
Similarly, when Japanese and Korean shipwrights are working for a tenth of the wage of British shipwrights why exactly would anyone want to build their ships in Britain?
The fact of the matter is, in the 1970s the labour movement was in thrall to the Unions who were in thrall to the Communist Party who were more concerned with forcing Britain into the Warsaw Pact and using their members as political shock troops than with getting them a better deal or making their industries more competitive.
It required someone to take the Unions on and that someone was Margaret Thatcher and as in any civil war there is going to be collateral damage or as some posters would put it 'devastated communities', although I've been through some of these areas and they don't look too devastated to me, in fact most of them are thriving.
One notes that whilst you all curse Mrs Thatcher you were more than happy to buy your council houses and take the big profits when you flogged them and none of you was about to hand back the money from your tax cuts - you bunch of hypocrites.
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#68 Dick
Thanks for the response (I was getting bored with my book).
Your paras 1-3. I broadly agree.
There was an urgent need for "structural adjustment" which successive Labour and Tory governments had ignored as they obsessed about "ownership" of heavy industry - the successive denationalisation and renationalisation of British Steel being an example. The problem, of course, was that Thatcher combined the necessary structural adjustment with monetarism which intensified the social damage which adjustment always brings.
Your paras 4-5 are more problematic (but only due to your extreme language). The principal problem with the Unions was that they no longer had the interests of their members at heart. Indeed if you look at the way that the Unions have totally failed to represent the interests of their women members since the Equal Pay act was passed, things haven't changed much.
I presume in your last paragraph your use of the word "you" refers to New Labour, and not Nationalists. The hypocrisy you talk about posturing on representing the "working class" is endemic among them. Indeed it may well explain the inability of NuLab to find a candidate in Glasgow East who hadn't profited from (if not exploited) council house sales.
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If anyone wants to see what Salmond actually said in the interview with Iain Dale it's here
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Reading through the blog's one gets a sense of desparation from the nationalist,that the need an alliance,to help push through some of their manifesto.
The honeymoon is over and the public are awakening to the inability of minority government.
Who will give the nats support? maybe an unholy alliance with the tories has already been done............
Refer to the nationalist at westminster.....
MP. As.
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This forum is getting off the point, the Labour Leadership in Holyrood contest. I can understand this, they don't seem to be setting the heather on fire. However there are a couple of points worth raising.
First, how is the new leader going to change Labour to be more "Scottish"? What mechanism are they going to use? Sounds very vague. Not surprising as they have little power, not much more than getting on their hind legs once a week to get beaten up by Salmond. Labour policy will still be set by their London based masters.
Second, this positive vision thing. Apart from a few new ideas, some good, some bad, there appears to be no overall, cohesive vision for the direction of Labour in Scotland from any of their candidates. While they can't implement much, they should at least be trying to push Labour into a new direction.
Whoever wins, come September I suspect it will be back to normal
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#71 ???? What planet are you on!
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#68 oldnat
Having re-read my posting, you are right my language was a little intemperate for which I sincerely apologise. In my defence, I did having a serious of meetings yesterday with people who, to be kindly, were acting like human beings another description would be wilfully obtuse.
Furthermore, it becomes a little wearing when you are constantly being treated as corrupt, inept, incompetent or just plain stupid whilst regularly putting in a 15 hour day with a growing pile of paperwork waiting for you when you get home - but I chose the life.
However, you are partly to blame as it was you who directed me to the newspaper article and I unfortunately read some of the blogs that followed which caused the steam to blow off. I now realise that these bloggers are probably quite youthful and in most cases parroting the shibolleths of older people who should know a lot better.
Again, my apologies to the contributors to this thread.
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#71 Completely bonkers, must be a relation to Douglas Alexander!
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#70 thanks for the links to Alex interview and what he says regarding the Economics and Social policy of Thatcherism, it seems very much he says...
Refering to David Cameron and the Tories
"Maybe the wrapping has changed somewhat but I think the leopard is still there."
What I get is that Scottish people like having profitable and capable businesses (agree with economics) but a higher tax rate than the English for social services (disagree with Social aspects). In addition we are still very suspicious of the Tories.
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scot2010
We know the the snp along with the tories in westminster think it inappropiate, that Scottish MPs vote on English issues.
Many people on this blog believe that westminster is now irrelevant to Scottish politics.
Do you believe that all Scottish MPs in westminster should be made redundant and all Scottish issues should be dealt with at the Scottish parliament.
Take your time(remember the nats have mps at westminster to, including A.S.)
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BrianSH
Are you saying that if the snp form an alliance with any of the major parties,you will oppose THAT?
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#77
I don't believe that Westminster is irrelevant to Scottish Politics. How can it be while Scotland is still in the UK?
However, I don't like the two layer system currently in place for MP/MSPs.
I would prefer that Westminster organised its business so that debates on UK policy were held at certain times. Then I would sack all the Scottish/Welsh/Irish MPs and get the constituency MSPs/Assembly members to go down to Westminster to vote on UK policies.
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Bangingonabout.
May I be as bold too ask,
WHAT DO YOU INTERPRET AS UK "POLICY"
Cheers.
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#80
Under the current system, those things that are reserved would be my starting point.
However, this would probably mean that the devolution settlements for Wales and Northern Ireland would have to change to bring them into line with Scotland (or all would have to change to some common settlement).
Which I guess, reflecting on it, would put me into a federalist camp.
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Re 59
Brownedov
I am not a nulab voter, I have in the past voted labour, as I have voted SNP and LIberal. I am unusual in this forum, someone who tries to keep an open mind on every issue and vote for whoever has the best solutions for our nation at that time. My vote is always up for grabs!
I am maybe missing the point but I have never thought democracy was about slavishly following a party irrespective of its failings. Entrenched opinion and the inability to examine issues on an issue by issue basis is the reason politics in the UK is such a mess. It s also the reason minority government is struggling in Scotland. I can't say i see to many people with open minds on this blog.
I believe the current crop of politicans in Holyrood are the worst I have seen in my lifetime. My point here is none of the solutions offered are thought through and ready for delivery. In the case of the SNP they have had years to perfect their thinking and policy in opposition, I think a bit more action is not unreasonable after close to 18 months.
At least when Blair landed in No 10 he knew what he wanted done and got on with it, so did Thatcher. Salmond has really not made the use of the powers available. Maybe this is part of his plan to increase the pressure for independance but it is not impressive.
Regarding social mobility I believe that this can only really be achieved by increasing educational attainment. Labour in this instance are guilty of a diabolically poor deal over teachers pay which gave teachers a lot and got nothing in return. Councils now have to pay more teachers greater salaries but have no increased power to fire the useless ones that deliver nothing.
With regard to the SNP, they made loads of pre election pledges to fully fund higher education only to break that promise as well.
On electoral reform I think this issue should be parked until we evaluate better what works. The real issue is how to get more people to vote, tinkering with the voting system isn't addressing the key issue.
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Thank you for your reply.
Good luck.(keep the faith)
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#77 DerekBarker
Do I believe Westminster is irrelevant?
No, not while they are deciding most of the economic policy that affects Scotland. Plus sending Scottish troops into illegal wars!
I do, however, believe that it should be irrelevant, by the Scottish people giving it its marching orders out of Scottish affairs (that's independence, in case you had trouble working it out).
I'm positive that Salmond and the 6 other SNP MPs will gladly accept their P45's then.
BTW on your original post you referred to "The honeymoon is over and the public are awakening to the inability of minority government." Is this since July 24th? The people of Glasgow East didn't seem to think so then. But, hey, if the unionist parties want to think so, then fine. They will just fall even further behind.....
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
To those Brit-Apologists who persist with the view that the SNP are running the Scottish Government "unopposed", and that "effective opposition" will somehow be restored by the election of Labour's next puppet "leader" -
Happy self-delusion, and get well soon!
:-)
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northhighlander
Fantasic read,well said.
catch up later.
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Every blog generates a wave of posts form SNP supporters that can be characterised by its vitriol and betrays the adolecence of the writers. Their enthusiasm may not last beyond the point where they get a girlfriend. It is in any case wasted, this blog is visited almost exclusively by those who are already politically committed, so it changes no ones views.
So some facts.
Most Scots are content to be British. Some of us are utterly jubilant about it. The temporary disarray of the labour party is as irrelevant to that as was the temporary disarray of the tories 1995-2005
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#78 derek
Quite correct I don't think the SNP should form an 'alliance' with any of the other parties. So far they haven't and it seems to be working pretty well. Now politics works for the people, each party votes based upon its point of view instead of two parties saying they are the opinion of the scottish people and that the other 49% who voted are irrelevant.
The fact that the SNP cannot force through legislation by strength of numbers is excellent and I hope this continues long into the future and that no party ever has more than 50% of the MSPs.
I hope the old dynastic days of the old Lib-Lab pact are behind Scottish politics.
With regards to the West-Lothian question. There should be no such thing as MPs, the MSPs/MPs should be the same but for UK wide issues the MSPs should be bussed down to London for votes.
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#88 You'll need to ask my Fiance about that and with regards to your second paragraph, I have never seen a unionist present proof to that statement.
Big claims, no proof, unionism!
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#88
Another fact for you.
Most Scots are Scots first and many could hardly care less about being British.
That is a basic starting point, even before we begin to analyse the "merits" of a London-centric union which governs in accordance with its "British" agenda, imposes more obstacles than it brings advantages, has historically alienated the "Celtic fringe".
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Oldnat (#70), thank you for the link.
As predictably distorted accounts of what the First Minister said about the Thatcher era are appearing all over the place today, as one might expect, I hope nobody minds too much if I just indulge myself by contrasting this fiction with the fact. The relevant passage in the TotalPolitics interview follows:
"The SNP has a strong social conscience, which is very Scottish in itself. One of the reasons Scotland didn't take to Lady Thatcher was because of that. We didn't mind the economic side so much. But we didn't like the social side at all." (Alex Salmond in conversation with Iain Dale)
I don't know about you, but it seems to me that what the FM said is that Scots objected more to the social side of Thatcher-era policy than to the economic side: "We didn't mind the economic side SO MUCH. But we didn't like the social side at all." The key words to justify my interpretation are obviously the ones in upper case: "SO MUCH". In its got-up indignation - "Alex Salmond should hang his head in shame", etc., etc., etc. - Scottish Labour is cutting out the bit that it doesn't find convenient, as experience teaches one to expect from it, of course.
So Mr Salmond, in my reading of the text, is not, in fact, saying that Scotland didn't mind Thatcher economic policy. Nor is he saying that he personally didn't mind Thatcher economic policy. Although he has been reported as saying both, he has yet to say either, I think, if he means to do so at all.
Anyway, that's my textual analysis for the day for what it may be worth.
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#88
Thank you for reminding me why I voted SNP. The antics of the labour and tory lot in Westmidden (love that name) are just too reminiscent of the Monty Python Fish Slapping sketch and just as relevant to what I want, that I called a curse on both your houses. Both are irrelevant to me as political forces even though I might be economically a tory and socially "left of centre" ( You can't say Labour now, Kier Hardie is long dead).
Brians blog is also irrelevant but can you blame him. He got the job because of his contacts with Labour so he's doing what he knows best untill told to do otherwise. His bosses never saw the end of 50 years of Labour misrule. Just another example of the incompetence of British management
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#93 handclapping
Can I recommend the terms my son (in the USA) uses to describe his politics? -
"fiscally conservative, and a social liberal".
I suspect that's pretty much the Scottish consensus.
Were "British"politics like that, a number of people would never have made the transition to the SNP, but the only way to get the style of government we want is through fiscal autonomy, and a veto over imperialist adventures (at the minimum).
#74 Dick
No apology needed. The Scotsman blog comments I normally avoid, for that reason.
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Oldnat,
Hear! Hear! Add me to your "Scottish consensus"Slainte
ed
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There's a new thread folks, although it's pretty much already out of date judging from the above discussion! Keep up Brian!
#89:"MSPs should be bussed down to London for votes." I think you mean the MPs should be bussed up to Holyrood!
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scot2010
"I'm positive that Salmond and the 6 other MPs will gladly accept their P45's then.
listen in little boy,go check the snp website at westminster.
There you will find the snp planning to advance their numbers at the next GE.
Your thread is full of whole,s.
take your time. Ta ta
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#82 northhighlander
Thanks for your response. I'm sorry to have accused you wrongly of supporting NuLab, but surprised that someone who doesn't believe in electoral reform would ever have voted Liberal, especially in Scotland where the party no longer has any councillors. Perhaps you mean pre-'87 or you confuse the Liberals with the LibDems, but the LibDems also strongly support electoral reform.
Re how many of their manifesto pledges the SNP have been able to keep so far, I am not a direct supporter and so not qualified to say, but I do know they plan to keep as many of them as they can and are barely one-quarter the way through their current term.
Where I differ from you is in "strong" government without a mandate. Do you really believe Bliar or Thatcher had any moral right to take unchallenged the decisions they did without a majority of the electorate having voted for them?
The last time a party got 50% of the voters onside was the Tories in 1931 (when they joined MacDonald's National Government while Labour left it) and in 1900 (when they governed alone). The nadir must be the current Bliar / Brown government which got the votes of less than a quarter of the electorate.
Do you really believe that this is fair and right and that having a government which represents the majority of the people is unimportant?
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derek barker (posts passim)
Of course our MPs at Westminster are redundent - once we have independence. Until we have independence they aren't in the least redundent because Wetminster controls our foreign and military policy.
In the meantime it is wholly inappropriate that our MPs should be voting on wholly English matters. It's none of our business how filthy you want your hospitals, or how underfunded your schools.
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Simon, please, no pie's today.
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Ah, Ah, Brownedov,
The swan song, good for you!
Again, well done! northhighlander..
Keep going...........
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Why are these people so keen to be leader of the devolved opposition, but don't want to be Prime Minister of an independent Scotland? can they really not handle the responsibilities or make a decent fist of government nwith the full powers of independence?
Any chance of an interactive hustings where we can ask them?
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