Sympathy and sensitivity
A wee while back, I spent a couple of nights in hospital. Nothing serious, a gastric problem.
The medical and nursing treatment was excellent. The journey of care, as I believe it is occasionally known, less so.
The ward was cluttered and crowded. Information was sporadic and, sometimes, contradictory. It was difficult to discern who was in charge of care provision.
Then there was the cabaret. One patient was apparently anxious to resume his maritime career. He told us, repeatedly and loudly, that he had to get back to the islands to rejoin his boat. He took especial care to stress this point during the middle of the night, lest we might doze off and miss something.
It might have been Pinteresque - a little like the character keen to get to Sidcup to collect his papers. Unaccountably, however, my dramatic sensitivities were a little dulled. Lack of sleep, perhaps.
Brutes that we were, we, his fellow patients, cheered inwardly when, finally, he did a runner, doubtless in search of his vessel. However, the police, with a greater sense of duty than mercy, picked him up close by and returned him to our company. The lamentations began again.
I thought of this as I heard Nicola Sturgeon on the wireless this morning making a distinction between medical/nursing treatment and the wider provision of care. The latter, she felt, had flaws.
And what, exactly, was she discussing? The fact that a corpse was left lying in a hospital ward for seven hours. Seven - count them - hours. Two meals went by. The deceased remained in situ.
For pity's sake, has it come to this? Spare us the soothing jargon, please. Full inquiry, must never happen again, errors in procedure. A corpse was left lying beside sick people. For seven hours.
The justification? The family of the deceased, to whom all sympathy, apparently wanted the body left in the ward to allow one relative time to get to the hospital.
Again, sympathy. But did no-one consider the competing interests of the other patients and their families? Rights are not absolute, even in death. They must be balanced with the rights of others. Did no-one at the hospital think that, on balance, it was preferable to say no to this request?
Even after the relative arrived, there was a further delay in moving the body. To repeat, a corpse lay in a hospital ward for seven hours. Forget Pinter. This is straight from Gogol. Give me strength.
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Brian
I remember attending a course at the Govan Law Centre on the Law and Education.
In a section on the Human Rights Act, it was clear that a number of members felt that they had to respond to the HR of the individual they were dealing with regardless of the "rights of others", despite the lawyer repeatedly stressing that (as you say) "Rights are not absolute".
The principle in law (as I understand it) is that people's rights often compete with each other, and the duty of public authorities is to maintain an appropriate balance between them. But that's a difficult call for a busy nurse, teacher or whoever, who is aware of their boss's terror at being publicly criticised for a wrong decision, and who's training in HR has been superficial, if it's there at all.
You are right. The decision to leave the corpse in the ward for that length of time was appalling - but we'll see no improvement until common sense becomes normal within the public services, instead of fear of criticism.
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Sad indeed and hardly showing great competence or common sense by the management of the Stobhill hospital, but more a funding matter than a political one, I'd have thought.
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As long as nobody needed the bed, what's the problem? To all appearances, s/he might have simply been asleep. I'm sure there were other matters needing more urgent staff attention. The dead are notably patient.
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Yes Brian,strength indeed, we have to judge governments by their input into society,well,well,well it,s does seem(GIVING THE "C diff" ) and todays news of that dreadful corpse incident,that the SNP government,is losing control of our NHS...
A distinct problem with minority government,too negate the process of government.......
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The new article by John Knox at Life after unknown Labour soldier would have been a better start point for this thread, because that's where the discussion is bound to go, as it already has been going on the "Preparing for battle" thread where the LibDem 3 haven't been mentioned for a while now.
As Knox suggests: "everyone is now wondering what the democratic folk of Fife will do to Labour."
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Brian -
Sad to see you trying to lay the entire blame for this incident at Nicola Sturgeon's feet, but given that she only became Scottish health minister little more than a year ago, the accusation isn't going to fool anyone.
Naturally, you can't conceive the incident might just have something to do with decades of shameful neglect of Scottish health services by successive Labour and Tory governments!
Just how stupid do you think people are?
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"...I'll be blogging here regularly, on Scottish Politics."
I've checked and re-checked...I can't see any reference to politics, of any kind, let alone Scottish.
A sad-tale of potentially sympathetic staff agreeing to let a relative see the body and, more than likely because the "procedure" was interrupted, the corpse lay for another 3hrs before being removed.
Sad, but it can happen. Hardly a damning report on MRSA, poor-hygiene, lazy staff or discarded needles etc.
The only connection to politics and it's only my point of view but it has to be said, is that Nicola Sturgeon is berated for using the language of politicians everywhere. I.E. Language which is carefully selected to prevent misinterpretation.
Although, if taken from a slightly skewed position, a damning report on the ability of Ms Sturgeon to do her job, or indeed on the ability of an SNP minister to do her job.
Check your hem-line, Brian- your slip's showing!
PS When in hospital yourself, did you complain to the ward-manager? Did you actually ask who was in charge of your care?
Did you ask for the "cabaret", or indeed for yourself to be moved?
Or, like many people, did you sit in your own little version of "Carry on Doctor" and wait until you left the "excellent medical care" (because you don't want to offend the nice nurses, do you?) and eagerly bid your time until given the opportunity tell the rest of the wifies in the close "it wiz awffy, so it wiz!"?
Unfortunately, you seem to have joined the rest of the public who, when faced with a situation they dislike, withdraw from confronting those responsible and make a lot of noise when safely out of the way of any possibility of having to play any part in it's resolution!
No wonder this nation is divided on it's own destiny!
Please Brian, the next time a similar event occurs in your life, tell us what YOU did about it, rather than what someone else didn't.
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#4 derekbarker
Wasn't it you on the last thread saying they were all the same?
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So what's your point exactly? What did it matter to the other patients whether it was someone dead or just asleep behind the screens? Did the complainer think they would be contaminated or something, I'm sure Nicola Sturgeon has more important matters than this to deal with. What a nation of softies and whingers we are becoming.
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The idea that this is not a government issue is nonsense, of course it is.There has got to be a full blow public inquiry into the current state of the peolpes NHS.
This is not a day for excuses."PUBLIC INQUIRY PLEASE"
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#7 gt_cri
If that's not politics, I don't know what is! Politics isn't just party politics.Reckon you didn't check well enough!
The balance over rights has been unbalanced by NuLab and their obsession with targets, micro-management, and legislation at the drop of a hat. By Summer 2006 they had brought in 3,023 new offences in the UK.
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In all respect oldnat, this is not about yesterday? its about the here and know government of today,show some balance and condemn this negligent SNP minority government...........
peace
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#11 oldnat
Although sympathetic to what you're saying doesn't it ultimately come down to funding? If there was a staff shortage or even peak demand, wheeling out a dead patient has to be a lower priority than attending to live ones.
Certainly this is a political issue, but not one likely to be resolved until more fundamental issues of who has fiscal control of Scotland are settled.
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#11 oldnat
Only if these "competing interests of the other patients" are aired! Many people have views on many matters but choose to keep them to themselves.
DEF: "Politics is the process by which groups of people make decisions."
Only one definition, I know but to take part in the process, one must articulate one's view!
Our reporter claims to have "cheered inwardly"- he did not express his views and therefore was not taking part in the process.
Neither, it would seem, did any of the other patients, or families thereof, in the case reported.
One has to speak, in order to be heard!
I don't see how that reflects on Nulab's obsession with targets, or the number of offences! If those offences unbalance the rights of the people, they should be challenged, and those challenges can be taken to courts outwith the influence of the UK Government.
You ignore my main point: Who was suitably annoyed or offended by the situation to speak-up? It would appear no-one was...
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#11 oldnat -
I find it truly offensive that such an incident is being turned into a political football by a supposedly "impartial" news organisation. Apart from the fact this article is obviously politically-motivated, it's also in extremely bad taste.
Is every individual case of unacceptable care in a Scottish hospital going to result in an attempt to blame Nicola Sturgeon? I don't recall the BBC doing this every time a health issue arose under Labour?
No one is saying Sturgeon shouldn't be held responsible for the overall standard of health care in Scottish hospitals but at this rate it won't be long before the BBC demands she be tried for witchcraft!
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This has gone far out of perspective. What looks like a poor decision, possibly taken under pressure, was allowed to escalate into a cock-up. I'm sure no blame attaches to Nicola Sturgeon or, indeed, the previous government. Some hapless nurse has been told: Look, next time tell relatives we don't keep bodies in wards, and they can see the body in a side-room or mortuary in due course. End of story.
Oldnat: You are right. It is politics, albeit in the widest sense, but gt_cri also was right in every other aspect of #7.
If people try to score political points in these situations, that's their right. But where do they go when a real issue comes up?
This is a regrettable incident, nothing more. Can't we just accept that?
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#12 Derekbarker
Your view is too narrow and biased to warrant discussion. Go make a sandwich board and walk up and down Sauchiehall Street shouting your rhetoric!
Oldnat, I have to sign-off for now but would gladly continue tomorrow! Having seen your previous posts, I'd be honoured to debate with you further!
gt-cri
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#16 brigadierjohn -
"This is a regrettable incident, nothing more. Can't we just accept that?"
Apparently not.
It has to be turned into an attempt to bash Nicola Sturgeon!
Give me strength, indeed.
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hang on a wee minute....
Hospitals deal with the crappy end of life on a daily basis...
The CORPSE as you so coldly call it, was someones relative....and it still deserved respect. If the relatives wishes hadnt been granted , would the harpies on this thread be calling for public inquiry because they had been FAILED ......
No one in this story suffered negligence ( the delay in transporting afterwards was the only downfall ) ....
The public...the service users ...are inherently selfish, only THEIR needs are paramount, you, Brian, moaned because the obviously ill patient with mental health issues was brought back for treatment, yes , he probably was a pain in the arse , and the staff might have agreed with you, only no doubt they are too professional to say anything . That man , was entitled to the same dignity and respect as you were granted.
All patients should be treated with dignity and respect , and normal policy would be to obtain a single room and leave the deceased there until the family have had a chance to say goodbye. Stobhill had NONE available , they were being used by ill patients....so SHOCK HORROR...there was a dead person on hospital ward....get over it...
Try thinking about the bigger picture...it was someones family tragedy ....not yours....
This says more about our attitudes to death than anything else...
What really has pissed me off , is that management has apologised for this terrible trauma !!!!!!......PAH ...apologists....try backing up the staff , who in tough circumstances , chose to support a bereaved family ...
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#15 bighullabaloo
LOL at your last para.
#16 brigadierjohn
Glad that you, bighullabaloo and I are in agreement for a change.
This is politics in a sense, as oldnat says, but it isn't the main issue of the day by a long way.
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gt- cri.
The physiology of response,i would rather fill a sandwich board and make myself some money.
To narrow to warrant discussion,Hmmm, do the SNP approach their political reaction with such meaningless theorectical tripe as you do.;.
"WARRANT OFFICER DIBBLE"
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I would just like to say I agree with the majority of the posters above.
Why is this some kind of issue that plays to party politics?
Where is the respect for the deceased when angry blogs demand a public enquiry?
Surely it is up to the family to demand that, not the BBC or anyone else in the press.
Infact, it is rather shocking this blog was posted. If this is the leading story in the news I would expect more than a few complaints from the public including myself.
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#15 bighullabalooo and #16 brigadier
First time I've seen you guys agree (but you posted at the same time, so didn't see the other's post!)
On one level, you're right. This was a simple cock-up (mods - that's a reference to military musketry, it's not obscene). People make mistakes in every field. It's regrettable, but not a big deal in the wider scheme of things.
The role of the media is the critical issue here, because it's activities have created the attitude of which NuLab is but a symptom (I wouldn't give them the dubious honour of being a disease, or even a syndrome).
Reconstructing our political culture to avoid the evils of immediacy is essential.
You can also see Brian's train of thought in constructing this new thread -
death - hospital - my experience - current news story.
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#20 Brownedov: There is nothing to disagree about, except via artificial and contrived outrage. The last three or four of Brian's Blogs have been the same; only fanatics could create a dispute.
I could, I suppose, provoke mild outrage (you never know!) by suggesting that it's now a 90% SNP forum, in which like-minded people congratulate each other on their posts, draw attention to favourable articles and polls, while disparaging anything not accepted as Holy Writ as the work of biased and all-round nasty agitators. Without a glance in the mirror.
But, of course, I'm not saying that.
It would be nice to get back to promises about student debt, about black holes in LIT and PPF ideas, and villainous suggestions that you can't have an oil fund AND pay the bills. It's one or the other.
To tell the truth, I can't be bothered going there either. So, off for coffee.
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#19 princess and #22 Brian
Agree with you both. So if the media are the problem, why don't we deal with that issue -
Brian (as our local media rep) as the problem - not the answer.
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#23 oldnat
I've been reading this blog for months but this is the first time I've seen people on all sides agree that even if it's possible to treat this incident as a political issue, it really shouldn't be.
The only consolation, thankfully, is that most posts prove that the basic human decency of my fellow Scot is largely intact, no matter how fiercely we might argue over genuine political issues.
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#13 brownedov
I disagree with you (and not only to disprove the brigadier's allegation).
Funding wouldn't solve anything - unless we're going to spend scarce resources on building more single rooms for the dead, and employing a hospital porter in every ward to whip away the corpses.
The core problem is that we fail to recognise the nature of the professionals within the public services, and expect them to do everything.
I've always had superb medical care in hospital. I doubt if the hospital staff cared much about whether I was happy. They did care about giving me the best treatment they could for my condition.
GPs care much more about all the other factors which affect our wider physical and mental health.
Teachers are professionals, who are trained to teach and encourage learning.
I'm quite happy with such specialisation. I don't want to see them dissipating their efforts on issues that they're not trained for.
So where does the pressure for them to do so come from? The media and the politicians who depend on them for publicity.
It's Brian's fault!
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A totally biased piece of reporting by the BBC.
"Unattended" "left"
There is not a lot you can do to a dead person is there? The son was on his way to see his father and the staff respected his wishes to see his dad before he was taken to the mortuary. Sadly no single rooms were available but some patients do require them. I sympathise with the other patients in the room, makes them question their own mortality when the patient in the neighbouring bed dies. The curtains should have been drawn however.
"other patients were served two meals"
What the hell has this got to do with anything? Bodies don't decompose for a long time depending on the conditions. Again not that nice for the patients eating their meals but they need to be fed and there was no where else to put this man and his family.
If the complainer had any decency she would have shut the curtain over to protect his dignity or informed a member of the nursing staff to do so. Also her apparent contempt for the man with "mental illness" who obviously didn't deserve any care or treatment is the most shocking thing about this story.
The staff on the ward I am sure did their utmost in the circumstances but unless we have 100% single rooms in our hospitals, total privacy and dignity in hospital is impossible. I give my hat off to the staff for working under extreme difficulties in an obviously very busy ward. Their compassion in allowing the son to see his father should be commended and not derided!
A total non-story if I have ever seen one.
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Be careful what you wish for, you might just get it! Those of you beseeching Brian for a new thread didn't expect him to come up with something quite so inconsequential I'm sure! Just when I thought the LibDem post was as dull as it gets along comes this snooze-fest.
annascotland and richglasgowprincess: spot on! Hold the front page: dead body seen in hospital!!
Regarding politicisation of this non-event. Does anyone really expect our ministers to be (micro-)managing each and every hospital ward? I would seriously hope their attention is on more important matters. Much ado about nothing...
...and speaking of Shakespeare: derekbarker, nobody is expecting flowery prose on these blogs and we all make mistakes but please take a few extra seconds to check through your posts. Unfortunately it can be quite difficult to decipher them at times.
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#10 What are you rabbiting on about you idiot. There are real problems in the NHS that need looking at , someone tried to help a family out and it was probably not the best decision made however as stated I hardly think it was going to cause any issue , the curtains would have been drawn so hardly a big deal for anyone. Get a life( no pun intended ).
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Iraq.....
Georgia...
Afghanistan...
even.....an impending by-election in Glenrothes.
Brian, the dead guy is a local operational problem of which there always has been and always will be. Doesn't matter who's in charge, a local bod will always make a mistake. These mistakes (under labour, SNP, Tories or whoever) don't represent a strtegic political malaise.
Would Ian McWhirter ever waste time writing about this? I doubt it.
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#25 oldnat
"So if the media are the problem, why don't we deal with that issue?"
I've been dealing with that issue for months.
I've said all along that the desperation of the Unionist media is forcing them into writing more and more obviously-biased articles trying to bad-mouth the SNP with anything they think might stick.
I feel totally vindicated in having pointed that out, although I didn't expect their politically-motivated agenda to be as fully exposed quite as quickly as it has been.
I think they've really gone a step too far this time. They've badly misjudged how this makes them look in the eyes of the vast majority of decent people, politically motivated or not.
As they have ignored all previous warnings I imagine they are going to continue to do this regardless. That's a a good thing, because they are only making a rod for their own back.
I think we'll see considerably more people having their eyes opened as a result of this article, so you can expect more posts like that of pmarsh1986 (#28) above.
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It is impossible to overstate the extent of my disinterest in this non-story.
If this is the kind of drivel to which we are to be subjected when MPs/MSPs are on their hols, then they shouldn't be allowed any.....
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Forfar_loon
Will try my best(Aristole) the purple prose is not intented to be coded.
Cheers
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Before I started blogging a few weeks ago, I didn't know what a "troll" was -
derekbarker is a troll, and consequently should be ignored.Complain about this comment
#23 and #25 oldnat: You raise serious and important points about the media. There seems to be a consensus here that the media is politically biased, specifically that it is out to "get" the SNP. At the top of the food chain, there may be some truth in this.
As one who knows, let me assure you that working journalists have no such concerns. This Stobhill story probably arose one of two ways: an angry relative called an MP who tipped off his local journalist, or the relative phoned the media organisation direct.
It would go like this. "My relative spent seven hours lying beside a dead person."
"In the same bed?"
"No, the next bed. He's very upset."
Now, we wouldn't wish this on anyone, so it's a matter of concern. And as such a legitimate story for the media. Inquiries are made. An explanation is offered. A story is written: Man lay beside corpse in hospital.
On a "slow news day" the news editor might want to take it further, develop the story. Speak to the health board, the MP, the Scottish Government. Whether it's a minor or major story will depend on the response. Anything edgy or a hint of a cover-up and the story is splashed. Otherwise, Page 23.
Next, the political commentators move in. Try to believe me, it doesn't matter what party. The authority, be it government, health board, hospital chief, will stand accused. It is the job of the media to hold authorities to account. Make them squirm. Right now, the SNP is the government. Even though everyone knows it has nothing to do with Nicola Sturgeon, the buck stops there. And if the paper happens to be anti-SNP that's just a bonus. But it DID happen when Labour was in charge, and no doubt the SNP cheered as they squirmed.
Right now, Gordon Brown is being pilloried for half a dozen things outwith his control. But he is in charge, and, boy, is he squirming.
It's the way it works. It's unfair at times, but part of the rough and tumble. If you can't see the big picture, life is always going to be one rage after another for you. Or just don't read it.
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#35: does that make Brian a troll too? After all he has managed to write something both controversial and irrelevant. Maybe we should all ignore him too ;o)
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#27 oldnat
OK - I accept that perhaps I went a bit OTT.
I certainly wouldn't suggest they need an extra manager to monitor the use of staff time!
We'll probably never know the whole story but in my personal experience hospitals in the UK are busy places and if it boils down to a choice between the living and the relatives of the dead I say the first priority has to be to the living every time.
It may actually need no more than a few words from a ward sister to a student next time they have a quiet shift together.
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#36 brigadier
Thanks for that. You confirm what I suspected.
Although I've personalised this on Brian so far (United supporter - so fair game), I don't blame individual journalists, who need to pay their mortgage.
Also, I don't think that individual journalists necessarily set out to attack one party or another - though if you are employed by certain papers, I suspect that it's an unwritten part of the contract to attack "the enemy".
The prime motivation is, obviously to fill the pages, and trivial stories often dominate - hence the term "silly season".
That media owners can influence reporting, however, has to be of serious concern to a democratic society (c/f Blair and Murdoch).
I have no reason to believe that Robin Dinwoodie in the Herald is anything other than an honest man, but his paper has a political line and I assume that it was his editors who cut the SNP condolences on John MacDougall's death from his report.
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#29 forfar-loon
LOL and well said. I admit culpability for wanting a new thread and rather hoped it might be on a relevant topical matter.
Silly me.
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I have just read the story and looked at the accompanying video. The complainer seems to be complaining about a distressed man (presumably the son) leaving the bedside and leaving the curtain slightly open. It makes me wonder if this lady has too much time on her hands.
If she is concerned about how long it took to remove the body after the son had left, did she consider such things as shift changes? Even with dead patients, there is a protocol to follow and shift changes can draw that out further than the ideal. You see, we don't know if this is a reason. The story only reports one person's view.
If there is a problem with another patient, talk to the nursing staff (in the first instance) - not the BBC. Did the patient or his wife do that? If not, why not? If they did, what was the response? Was it perhaps that there was no other suitable bed for this man? Given the move to "Care" in the community a decade and more ago, I think there is a reasonable chance that this was the case here.
Contrary to some other posters, I believe there is a story here - it's just that this piece is the wrong one in the circumstances.
Finally, Mr Taylor, there are two ways to proceed if you feel you received inadequate care during your recent hospital stay. You can take it up with the Health Board or you can use the platform you have here to be a catalyst for change. It seems you have chosen the latter course. That is fine but, as you know, you must present all sides of the argument. I look forward to reading in this blog the results of your interviews with medical staff, hospital administrators, health board officials and (if you are lucky enough) Nicola Sturgeon.
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#37 forfar-loon
Spot on, unless a specialist word for it already exists. This is clearly not the political thread the UK nations need right now.
Clearly the focus is where will Brown find his next banana skin upon which to go base over apex and I think we all know where that is.
A little unfair for Brian to take all the flak, perhaps, as Nick R and Michael C are both apparently away but having been out of the kitchen for most of the Glasgow East campaign it's definitely his turn to take the heat.
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Brian,
I think it's crazy that the health minister has to answer individual incidents.
The staff made a decision to wait for a relative arriving by air, they've accepted that they were wrong.
Getting someone with the DTs on your ward is not uncommon today, lets face it we've got plenty of alcoholics so it will get more common.
This is a song and dance about nothing.
I'm surprised that you and the BBC are increasingly trying to spin against the Scottish Government.
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#28 pmarsh1986 sums it up nicely.
Honestly Brian, what were you thinking?
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As someone who enjoyed a 30-year career in journalism myself, I can confirm that everything brigadierjohn wrote in his #36 is accurate. That is precisely how journalism works.
General reporters do indeed have no such political concerns when going about their everyday job. However, it's also true that (no surprise) political correspondents have a much greater involvement with the people "at the top of the food chain".
And - again no surprise - media owners can and sometimes do have very strong political views. An interesting question to ask oneself is: "who is at the top of the food chain in the BBC's case?"
I don't think anyone here seriously doubts that there's political bias in the news stories we see in various Scottish newspapers and websites every day. That's not a "conspiracy theory". It's as plain as the nose on your face!
(To allay any possible doubt: I obtained my NCTJ qualification in journalism after a three-year apprenticeship in 1979. Thereafter I worked in Scottish newspaper and broadcast journalism for many years).
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I cant believe this was the lead story on Reporting Scotland, pathetic..oh and there are digging up more stories on DEAD people to fill up the tabloid style reporting...
I am sorry that the woman was so affronted by the awful buisness of dying ....she has her husband at home , after he recieved good quality care.
It looks like it is slate the NHS night tonight.
Ok the paramedic...deserves all he gets.
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Politicians set policy (the clue is in the name), rightly allowing those involved in delivery of services to act in the face of particular circumstances.
I would rather that someone 'at the coalface' made an ill-advised choice than that they were completely circumscribed by red-tape edicts from soneone on high who had no idea what medical care is like in the real world. [I thought we now realised that what we want is less management and more nursing!!!]
How much has this story cost? Not only the financial resources employed by the BBC, but the NHS Board, the Royal College of Nursing and others have also been inconvenienced and denied the chance to do their respective jobs most efficiently.
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To return to my theme of the dysfunctional relationship between politics and the media in all its forms)
That's from the Lib-Dems though I imagine all parties are at the same game.Even members of Nixon's White House felt that using such tactics with public money was unacceptable. NuLabour seems not to have the niceities that Nixon's staff had judging by Benjamin Wegg Prosser (though I think his surname is misspelt.
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Oldnat, conspire by the fire. is this a blog thats exclusive too all others,unless thay share the same view as the "LAST OF THE SUMMER WINE" mob.
Relax old one.
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#48 oldnat
Maybe if we all muck in at this long enough the Scottish parties will finally realise the political power of the internet and we might all end up on the party payroll? Goodness knows, we're putting in the hours!
LOL
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I feel sorry for the nursing staff. You see, if they took the corpse away to the chapel of rest or the mortuary they would have deprived the relative of seeing the remains in their last natural position. Leave the body, waiting for the relative and you leave an open goal for the press.
Let's not forget what a great job the NHS does. We rarely focussed on the good.
Yes the situation wasn't perfect, but it wasn't disastrous either.
Brian, I think that you are a wee bit guilty of catastrophising. Oh how terrible, how disgraceful, the disrespect, seven hours, oh my goodness. What has the world come to and what will the neighbours think etc.
How about focusing on how wonderful and good-intentioned the staff were as they tried under difficult circumstances, to keep the body in situ for the relative to come to view the corpse for a last time. Is this not in some ways a really considerate act? Having this moment stolen may have been stressful for the relative.
Not sure what the decision of the nursing staff at a local level has got to do with Ms Sturgeon. Is she a micro-manager of NHS Scotland? Does her job require her to be the omniscient and omnipresent starchy breasted matron of Scottish NHS Healthcare? Should she be? The answer is absolutely not.
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#47 cousteau696: Correct. There are "nurse managers" driving about in Mercedes cars, who - despite their qualifications - have not seen a patient in 20 years. They are controlled by budgets, and many have lost the caring instinct that first motivated them to become nurses.
And some active nurses lose that instinct through cynicism and dismay at how their jobs have changed for the worse.
#48 oldnat: You "imagine" all parties are at it? What gave you that idea?
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#52 brigadier
My favourite discovery from this thread is that you and bighullabaloo were both journalists!
I wonder what other damning admissions will develop.
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bighullabaloo:
"I don't think anyone here seriously doubts that there's political bias in the news stories we see in various Scottish newspapers and websites every day. That's not a "conspiracy theory". It's as plain as the nose on your face!"
I seriously doubt it. As I've said repeatedly, it's like the liberal bias in the American media. Mostly it's down to confirmation bias. If the Scotsman runs a front page slagging off Gordon Brown, you won't pay any attention to it.
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#54 Anaxim
Yes, but unfortunately just repeating something as if it was a fact doesn't make it true.
And just because you believe something is true, doesn't make you right.
If you seriously doubt there is political bias in our media, here's what I suggest.
Try working for them for 30 years like I did. After that time, come back and let me know if you still believe it.
This has the enormous side benefit that we won't have to read it again from you for 30 years.
Also, it offers you the considerable advantage that you'll be talking from actual experience, rather than just insisting that it must be right because you think it.
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#55 bighullabaloo
Anaxim was actually agreeing with your stance. Much better to ask him about the stupidity of Nichol Stephen attempting to "embarass" the Scottish Government for implementing exactly the policy he introduced when in power.
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bighullabaloo
Sorry, you're right. Anaxim was trying to pretend that it was all in the eye of the beholder.
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Brigadier: One this occasion I whole heartdly agree with you.
The NHS is being drowned in management , we are issued with TOP down orders every day , from various department heads and sometimes they contradict EACH other.
Staff are completely demoralised and slated on a daily basis, it is the ward staff who are at the pointy end, getting it in the neck form all sides...
Management want us to fill in forms, audits , fulfil our professional development and lifelong learning commitments and research best practice , all vital and all essential , but not to the detriment of patient care... We have to do this paperwork as a legal requirment , but when patients see you writing at a desk ....its not nursing ...your sitting on your "lazy ass" not mopping a fevered brow...Patients and visitors who have impressions of the NHS fuelled by tabloid media stories come into hospital suspicious and occasionally downright hostile , which my colleagues and I have to work hard to overcome . I am not saying the NHS is perfect , there are chancers and there are poor quality nurses, medics and support staff...but the majority of us .... want to do our job ....we want to help and we want to care for patients and we walk a fine line to keep everyone happy , In a 26 bedded ward it is hard to balance everyones needs ....some people might find it unacceptable that a water jug is empty for 5-10 minutes while we deal with a cardiac arrest , as I said we walk a fine line and in difficult circumstances, try our best....healthcare is not something that you can tie up in red tape, it is an emotional , fragile and ever changing thing, policies and protocols are put in place to protect standards but a bit of human compassion goes a long way.
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@bighullabaloo
Yes, but I'm citing a well understood logical fallacy and drawing a contemporary parallel. It's hardly a weak argument. It bears repeating because the nationalist hypothesis is endlessly repeated as well.
You could share some of your experience with us, and explain where the bias comes from, and how to stop it. I suppose a Scottish broadsheet with a consistently pro-independence view would be the obvious one. Surely wealthy nationalists could club together to start one up?
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#54 Anaxim: Journalistic standards have slipped, but a proper news reporter would slash his own wrists before he'd lay himself open to allegations of bias or unfairness, be it political, sectarian or anything else.
Everyone makes mistakes, of course. Good newspapers correct them. But nobody I'd recognise as a journalist sets out to distort or falsify.
Papers are entitled to have policies and opinions. That is the prerogative of the proprietor. It is generally well known that particular newspapers support certain causes. These may be political, or it may be an obsession about Princess Diana, or immigrants, etc. The content tends to reflect readers' opinions. If you disagree, don't buy the paper. Or don't work for it.
But don't buy the Daily Mail and feign outrage that it's biased against Labour.
A couple of media adages: The truth is sacred, opinion is free.
And, perhaps conversely: The bigger the truth you print, the bigger the damages you pay.
But if someone is determined to find bias, they will.
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#59 Anaxim
"I suppose a Scottish broadsheet with a consistently pro-independence view would be the obvious one. Surely wealthy nationalists could club together to start one up?"
I think that the experience of the ill-fated Scottish Standard - I wonder if my first edition is worth money yet [?] - would dissuade most from launching such an overtly-Nationalist offering, even if a bit more upmarket.
Having said that, I wouldn't be interested in a 'paper espousing views with which I agreed; half the fun of reading the Tory press is vehemently disagreeing with almost every [well-written] word of it.
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Troll up, Troll up.
More shocking revelation to come.On an inept governments control over the peoples NHS.
Ignorance is no excuse "remember that quote folks"
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I kind of agree that it is ridiculous that Nicola Sturgeon has to answer for this type of incident. However that is the current political climate, the manner in which our politics is conducted.
I think it is ridiculous and Nicola has been making a decent job of managing the NHS, as had Andy Kerr before her. This incident should be seen in perspective.
The problem here is while in opposition the SNP helped lower the debate over the nhs to this standard. The phrase " reap what you sow " comes to mind.
The only just started excuse is also now over. 15months is coming close to half time. What we see now is the SNP NHS. No mistake.
The "everyones picking on us " sentiment is also a little hollow. The current crop of politicians of every hue have all played their part in lowering the political debate to this level. The media have played part, but no politican is without blame in this area.
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Well Brian, from what you say about your stay in hospital, you might have prefered your neighbour to be dead, certainly would have been quieter eh?
I can't see what the big deal is, wouldn't bother me although I am amazed the trust agreed to this man occupying the bed for so long, normally they can't wait to get rid of you and give the bed to the next person.
My recent stay in hospital was great and I met some very nice people, nurses were wonderful and despite its failings I for one am very gald to have the NHS available to one and all. Face it, it may have its faults but think of the alternative.
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Re#64 my typo- that would be glad not gald. Should have got them to sort out the old hand /eye co-ordination while I was in I think......
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# 57 oldnat
I don't think Anaxim is pretending. I'm sure he sincerely believes what he says and he's entitled to believe that. Obviously I disagree with him that I'm suffering from it on this particular topic, but what he is talking about when he refers to "confirmation bias" definitely exists. His error is thinking that he's the only person who's aware of it and also that, naturally, he isn't suffering from it!
We are all suffering from it. People filter reality through their own perceptions and prejudices all the time. Here's a humorous example that illustrates exactly how it works: A police officer interviewed witnesses who saw a bank robbery. The first witness, a bald guy, said the robber "had a lot of hair". The second witness, a short guy, said the robber "was really tall". The last, a man in his eighties, said the robber "could run really fast."
Journalists battle against this type of problem constantly because they're faced with the problem of writing reports containing the "truth". Also, we have to be careful to make a distinction between general "factual" news coverage and "opinion" pieces" written by journalists who are upfront about the fact they have a particular political agenda.
All of my training and experience was aimed at reducing the effects of personal bias in my reporting. You have to fight against it on a daily basis over many years just to do your job properly because - as brigadierjohn puts it - getting the truth "wrong" meant your employer could end up paying out huge damages.
Of course "the truth" isn't quite that easy to pin down. For example, I've noticed that guys who have to carry their wallets around in a wheel barrow tend to have an uncanny knack of getting other people to agree with them on what the "truth" is.
But I'm not going to waste time trying to convince Anaxim about all of this because he's a "true believer". It would be nice to live in his world where the media are all nice politically-neutral people writing politically-harmless stories for readers who can't see past their own politically-prejudiced noses, but I'm afraid what I saw with my own eyes doesn't allow me to do that.
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Brigadier, whilst I agree with a lot of what you've said in this blog, I have to disagree with your image of the wrist-slashing reporter. Remember this?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2007/may/03/theheatofthescottishsun
Bias or opinion?
An extreme example for illustrative purposes, but the fact is the media in this country provides precious little fact, and 'opinion' in spades. Why would I want to pay good money to read somebody else's opinion? The bare facts might be less 'exciting', but they'd make for a much better read.
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bighullaballoo
You might like to take a look at Mark Mardell's European Blog especially posts 150, 153, 163,164,165,167. A lot of very ignorant posting from south of the border re Scotland, the Union eith England, and the EU.
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Anaxim:
Here is an one way of looking at the question of whether political bias exists in newspapers.
The brigadier - clearly an experienced newsman - writes (#60): "Papers are entitled to have policies and opinions. That is the prerogative of the proprietor. It is generally well known that particular newspapers support certain causes. These may be political (causes)..."
Now, my question is: if a newspaper properietor exercises their preogative to support a political cause how do they show that political support in practice?
Do they bake cakes for their chosen political party's bring-and-buy sale? Nope? Do they instruct their editors to run news stories that encourage a derogatory judgment about what the future holds if their political opponents were in control? Possibly.
But there's something not quite adding up here because, don't forget, proper news reporters would rather slash their own wrists than write anything that distorts or falsifies the truth.
So, for example, if a newspaper's front page features a hangman's noose in the shape of an SNP logo and a headline that reads: "Vote SNP today and you put Scotland's head in the noose" then you have to ask the question: what self-respecting truth-seeking journalist could write that headline?
In fact, you have to ask yourself: how could such a headline get written at all because, as we've heard, newpapers don't have reporters who could write such a headline and live with themselves in the morning.
Except, that still leaves us with the problem of explaining who did write the headline - and that's without even thinking about why it was written or who stands to gain if the headline affects the way people end up voting.
If you are capable of ignoring that type of logical absurdity then I take my hat off to you, because quite clearly your ability to bend reality is right up there with Uri Geller.
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This is nothing to do with today's politics. It's to do with the design of hospitals insofar as there are not enough single rooms. They're still building hospitals with wards consisting of at least 6 patients and ONE bath/shower room and toilet. We're the worst health service in Europe for not recognising each patient should have their own toilet facilities to avoid infection.
As for this incident it's down to management. I've had enough family die in hospitals over 60 years and never had this scenario.
It's my understanding that the man died at around 11am. Is it feasible that, in the interests of hygiene and other patients, that he was allowed to lie in the ward at the behest of the family, who by all accounts, didn't appear until 4 hours later? I've never heard of any family receiving such preferential treatment.
Although the staff were possibly trying to be kind, I think this is a mistake. Plus of course the mistake in notifying the mortuary staff after the family had visited that the body required removing.
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Brian,
You've been criticised by quite a few posters for this thread, but quite frankly it's produced some of the most interesting, well-presented arguments I've read here in a long while.
Was that intentional?
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#54 Anaxim
I would certainly say that if a newspaper's front page features a hangman's noose in the shape of an SNP logo and a headline reading: "Vote SNP today and you put Scotland's head in the noose" then that newspaper is certainly showing political bias.
The newspaper's owner may honestly believe the headline states the truth and of course it's up to each reader to decide for themselves whether it does or not.
But what I think is absolutely undeniable is that this newspaper headline is politically-biased. That is, the headline favours one political party over another.
If someone tries to tell me this headline only appears to me to be politically biased because I happen to support the SNP then I'd have to point out that the bias actually exists in the mind of the person who wrote the headline. All I am doing is recognising the newspaper's bais revealed by their favouring a political party other than the SNP.
So this is how I define political bias or, if you prefer, "spin". I think I have a pretty clear idea of the difference between a biased message and a non-biased message that I've wrongly identified as biased just because it doesn't support my own beliefs.
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Bighullabaloo,
would you concede,that there is no set code of practice, in terms of news paper reporting(the editor has the final say)and would you also agree,that there is a marked difference between internet blogging and newspapers.Where there is mud there is money, often dictates the newspapers reporting.
Do you remember how Nicola Sturgeon(in opposition) would constantly attack all things related too the NHS.
If you are big enough to criticize,then,you must also be prepared to face your responsibilty.
Its not being bias,its just forming an opinion.
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Oldnat (#68), I don't know whether I am being unreasonably selective, but I make a point of avoiding posts like that and indeed am taking your word for it that they do indeed conform to your description of them rather than check them out for myself.
Why is this? I think I may be prejudiced. Yes, on reflection, I think I would have to confess to being prejudiced against English ignorance, as I recall that I have always managed to summon up a quite stunningly remarkable degree of tolerance and indeed fortitude when confronted with the American variety, for example. Why is this? I think it is because I believe deep down that, whereas there is some prospect of overcoming the latter, or at least of reducing it somewhat, it is probably a waste of time to try to overcome the former.
Why is this? It has something to do with the nature of English ignorance, which not only is not ashamed of itself but is in point of fact actually rather proud of itself. In any case, why would those who simply know that they know best feel it necessary to consider the possibility that ignorance of pertinent facts might conceivably be reason to undermine their contented contention that they know best?
Then I think to myself that there is something naggingly familiar about English ignorance of Scottish affairs and indeed of Scotland in general. There is also something remarkably familiar about Scottish responses to it. Then I recall that exactly a hundred years ago the Irish were having precisely the same experience with the English or rather the British, as they put it. Why was this? Well, the Irish Home Rule movement was in the years before the First World War in a decidedly interesting state of development, as the Home Rule movement is in Scotland now. There are, of course, important differences between the two cases, but a constant seems to be the view that Home Rulers and even home-based unionists take of the dominant power's understanding and knowledge of the affairs of the subordinate territory. And as for the understanding and knowledge of the general population of the dominant power, well . . .
"It is idle to blame individuals. We should blame the Union. So long as one island democracy claims to determine the destinies of another island democracy, of whose special needs and circumstances it is admittedly ignorant, so long will both islands suffer.
"This ignorance is not disputed. No Irish Unionist claims that Great Britain should govern Ireland on the ground that the British electorate, or even British statesmen, understand Irish questions. On the contrary, in Ireland, at any rate, their ignorance is a matter for satirical comment with all parties." (Erskine Childers, The Framework of Home Rule, 1911)
I wonder what studies have been done into the role and significance of dominant-power ignorance in the development of autonomist movements in subordinate territories. PhD anyone? I suspect that, to get back to the specific case of general English ignorance in respect of Scottish affairs, it can only be to the ultimate benefit of Home Rulers, irritating though it may be in the meantime, if the Irish experience is anything to go by. Irish Home Rulers, I seem to recall, were astonished at the 1921 Inverness Formula, for example, which the First Minister has recently reminded us of and which resulted in the Anglo-Irish Treaty that gave them the Irish Free State. Why the astonishment? It was, of course, because of something that some of them knew but which the British Cabinet evidently did not know when it met in Inverness Town House to make the concessions that were contained in the Formula and signed up to by historically significant British luminaries such as Lloyd George, Baldwin and Churchill. The Irish side was actually about to run out of ammunition and was, therefore, on the point of defeat by the British forces, although the latter were unaware of this.
Yes, ignorance can be important and indeed valuable, and, although it mostly seems to afflict people with whom I am not in agreement on some point or another, it can afflict anyone, when you least expect it, even my good self, I dare say, as someone is no doubt about to point out. Its role in history is certainly not to be underestimated. Nevertheless, I still prefer to ignore English ignorance myself. I simply cannot abide it and cannot even bring myself to subject it to satirical comment, although that would perhaps be the best response to it.
As for the subject of Mr Tayor's blog, which I really must get around to at least alluding to in passing, I suppose we should be grateful to him for steering us away from by-election matters, for which the proper time has not yet arrived. Personally, as you may not be surprised to learn if you have read my comments above, my approach to hospitals these days is not to approach them. Avoidance again, I am afraid. I fear a pattern is emerging. I once got slightly disorientated in the network of corridors of a rather large hospital complex, but I did not feel moved to blame the health minister for that, even though he was not of my political persuasion. One tries to be fair-minded. It is not always easy, of course, but one tries.
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#74 Anaxetogrind
I enjoyed your post. To be fair, the Scots are often ignorant of things English.
If at some future date, when the South East of England falls into the sea as a result of the geological tilting of these islands, rising sea levels, and the weight of humanity that Tory think-tanks want to move there, some Northern English counties may wish to join us.
I fear that my descendants would then be as ignorant of them, as England currently is of us.
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#73 derekbarker
1. There certainly is a formal written journalistic code of conduct that sets out appropriate behaviour in all sorts of ethical and moral dilemmas. A journalist acting in ways described by brigadierjohn (#60) above could be regarded as following such a code. This code is voluntary but an ethical journalist tries to follow it as best they can in an imperfect world.
2. The newspaper editor has final say in terms of selection of news stories for inclusion in the paper. Such selections, of course, could be viewed as a type of "bias" in themselves but it is a practical reality that newspapers have only a limited amount of space so some things have to be left out.
3. "Where there is mud there is money" is one way of expressing the reality that bad news travels (and sells) better than good news. Newspapers meet two public needs: they provide a news service and they provide a means for businesses to present their goods for sale. Attracting potential buyers of those goods is the name of the game and editors know that bad news attracts more potential buyers than good news. That's a fact of life.
4. I'm sure Nicola Sturgeon did attack Labour's handling of the NHS when she was in opposition and if she hadn't then she wouldn't have been doing her job. But were her attacks on Labour given the same prominence in the Scottish media? I certainly don't recall her Labour predecessor being personally blamed for specific cases in the way that she has been recently, but if you can provide proof this was done then I will happily concede the point.
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Bighullabaloo,
Yes,most certainly,there are a litany of Ms Sturgeon,s attack's,in nearly all tabloid's and TV debate's at the time of her opposition.(prominence by position)"bbc scottish parliament" would probably be the best way,too witness those attack's .
Can i thank you for your precise and careful reply.
Is it the case,that if any journalist left themselves open to a false allegation(which this blog is certainly not)be liable to a civil action or court proceedings.
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Brian,
Is this not just another case of media hungry to attack government no matter what?
Death is still a taboo subject and is probably a primary fear in all of us. Death is as certain as life and provided the dead patient was treated in a dignified manner, where they lie is not an issue.
To try to score political points with the NHS is an old, tired waste of time. The NHS gets nothing but bad press but aren't we so lucky that it is a free service.
Of course improvements are needed but let us not lose sight of the wonderful job that our medical staff do often in very trying and difficult circumstances.
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#77 derekbarker
Glad to see you're finally able to string some "theoretical tripe" together, to support your argument!
Unfortunately, you're still not really making sense; I do not mean any disrespect (on this occasion) but I can't make head nor tail of your final para.
In any case, the "freedom of the press" to report stories, from a particular stand-point has been challenged on many occasions. Some with success; Max Mosley being a recent example, some without; various Tory ministers in the nineties...
To sell papers, the editor shall "market" his headlines. To do this, he/she shall think of (among many other things) what is going on in the minds of his/her readership. If a paper has Labour leanings, a story on a dead body, in a hospital bed near live patients, with a SNP minister in charge is likely to reinforce his readership's views and potentially bring others to his stand-point. It's called psychology and we all do it, whether consciously or unconsciously.
Journalists may be seeking the truth, but their truth and that of the editor who hired them, may differ from others. There is no such thing as an unbiased reporter; their own life experiences will influence the words they use- they are human and that's how humans act!
But, to return to your first para's point:
Of course Ms Sturgeon shall attack- it's called "opposition". Of course, the opposition shall attack her. Just how you were enraged enough to demand an inquiry, into the "negligence" of the Govt. over this story is the struggle for me and obviously, some others.
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#78 Jakethesaltire
I agree- they do, by and large, an excellent job (and I married a nurse) but like anyone in any position, they sometimes need reminding of their responsibilities!
This is from personal experience, when waiting for the all-clear from my consultant, after scan results a few years ago (when the radiographer had informed me I was fine).
After 8hours taking up a bed I did not need to occupy, I asked the staff-nurse when the doctor would arrive- I was informed "Doctor comes morning and night". "Doctor", not "the" doctor! After informing the Staffie I would discharge myself and await the results at home, to free-up the bed, "Doctor" magically appeared, spent 5mins telling me I was fine and I left. Had I not spoken up, I would more than likely spent another night in the ward unnecessarily.
Medical staff are generally conscientious, caring individuals who entered the profession to carry out their vocation. We should be proud of them but never lose sight of who they are charged with caring for.
I for one would gladly pay more tax/nat ins if I could see the money going to the nurses and staff who demonstrate their ability to use resources efficiently. Not for the tasks detailed by richglasgowprincess in #58!
My wife tells me similar tales of what her managers wanted from her, as a Staff-Nurse...
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The phony war is over, folks, with The Herald's new McLeish set to seek Fife by-election nomination and updated Why McLeish could be ideal candidate.
The idea seems to be that as McLeish is more of a home ruler than most in NuLab, when he loses it will show that "Duff" Gordon's devolution policies are perfect as usual.
I suppose it might just lessen the scale of the disaster. Can we get on with the real issues please?
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Wow, ex-journalists defend the ethical standard of journalists, shock, horror ... it's the story of the year .... no wait ...... who are we supposed to be rubbishing now?
What a load of nonsense.
If the journalists are all so high-minded and ensuring there is no bias, then how do the newspapers which have a clear bias produce these stories. Are we to believe that Rupert Murdoch spends his afternoon re-writing all the articles in his papers to ensure the correct level of bias ?
Journalists are like any other profession, there are the good, the bad and the ugly and the idea that they are all one step away from sainthood is nonsense.
I particularly enjoy the idea that journalists are all married to the voluntary codes of conduct. My view is that voluntary codes are not worth the paper they are written on (for any group or organisation). They are designed to appease regulators while still leaving you free to do whatever you want.
As for this particular blog, it seems little more than a self-obsessed rant by Brian Taylor bemoaning the fact he had a less than perfect stay in a hospital. Maybe he would like to propose that we lock up people who offend his senses or have any mental illnesses so that he does not have to encounter them.
The real point here is not whether some rag has bias, of course they do and the owner's view is always going to be reflected in the reporting, but rather whether there is bias in the BBC which we supposedly own, and which should not reflect the bias of the individuals who run it. If the BBC cannot keep a neutral stance, and ensure the journalists, commentators, editors etc. do not use it for personal point scoring or political bias, then they should be replaced by people who can.
As for the NHS:
Should Nicola Sturgeon be accountable for someone being offended by an indivdiual incident in a hospital? of course not, it's rediculous to expect her to manage individual wards
Should the SNP administration be help accountable for the overall level of care, standards of cleanliness, staffing levels etc. of the hospitals? of course they should, they have been in power long enough to make changes, and pointing at previous administrations and blaming them for leaving 'a terrible legacy' is no excuse at all
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YouGov have now put a bit more meat on the bones of the latest SNP survey. Nothing new in the headlines, but the PDF in YouGov's Political Archives now contains all of the analysis on everything the SNP has released.
Well worth downloading if you're interested. I'll look at it in more detail and add anything I find this afternoon.
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The London Times in their MPs try to block Henry McLeish as candidate take almost exactly the opposite view to The Herald articles I link to in my #81.
London Labour vs Scottish Labour, anyone?
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# 82 MAC827
I an an ex-journalist but my #69 above clearly argued the exact point you are now making:
"If the journalists are all so high-minded and ensuring there is no bias, then how do the newspapers which have a clear bias produce these stories?"
My #72 is the clearest example of why there certainly is political bias in our media that you are ever likely to get.
In #76 I mentioned the code of conduct for journalists. I didn't claim journalists are "one step away from sainthood" or "all married to the code of conduct". In fact I'm saying that in reality it's often the exact opposite!
Please take care not to paint all "ex-journalists" with the same brush!
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Oldnat,
What's to know?;-)
ed
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#85 sorry Bighullabaloo, I didn't mean to have a go at all journalists, just the 'rose tinted glasses' type.
As I mentioned, there are the good, the bad and the ugly in all professions, so I certainly accept that there are some good journalists (current and ex)
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This comment has been referred to the moderators. Explain.
#88 - if this post is censored then you can work out what it said by applying my "test for political bias" as explained in #72 to this blog article.
I must try to remember - we are allowed to speak the truth - as long as it doesn't prove the truth.
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I am reminded of Lord Northcliffe's adage: "News is what somebody somewhere wants to suppress; all the rest is advertising." The ability to reason and to express it skilfully is a powerful thing. Your right to do so runs out at the precise moment when you are in danger of exposing to the masses that "Goldstein" does exist.
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#90 bighullabaloo
Errr...you've lost the punters, there. Any chance you could explain for the hard of thinking?
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I am rapidly losing interest in this blog. If one is not to be allowed to reason clearly, to present one's conclusions based on that reasoning, then allow others to judge it on its merits, giving them equal opportunity to show why you are wrong, then what hope is there for our much-trumpeted right of "free" speech?
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#91 gt-cri
Yes, if such an explantion is necessary for the the "hard of thinking" then I am glad to provide one:
My #88 appears about to be moderated out of existence.
All it contains is the logical conclusion of applying my "test for political bias" (#72) to this blog article.
If you can't see the problem with the fact that is now being "moderated" there are two possible explanations:
1. Wilful ignorance.
2. Insufficient brain cells to follow a clear line of reasoning.
I would say very few people reading this fall into category 2.
There are definitely a few in category 1.
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#91 - gt-cri
Lord Northcliffe was a newspaper proprietor.
If you don't know who "Goldstein" is then the problem isn't "hard thinking".
Search for "Emmanuel Goldstein" on Wikipedia.
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#91 gt-cri
When they start denying people the chance to decide for themselves whether something is logically correct or logically flawed then they have already lost the argument.
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Big Brother allusions seem particularly apposite given the exercise of control over what can be read...
For the "Party", read the "Beeb".
But, as we all know, Ignorance is Strength."
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#96 cousteau
For all my impatience with the mods, I still prefer a moderated site, since it screens out the foul-mouthed abuse (from all sides) that you find on the Herald and Scotsman sites.
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#96 cousteau696
Orwell named Room 101 after a conference room at BBC Broadcasting House where he used to sit through tedious meetings.
I think it's difficult to get more apposite than that!
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Ah, THAT E Goldstein. I read 1984 at school but mistakenly thought you were referring to some chap Goldstein who may have been in the newspaper business...
I agree with your #72 and of course, any right minded individual would concur.
Again, your #95 seems a fair-point, too.
Perhaps it is the delivery that makes the post end up in moderator-hell.
But please, do not confuse my poor-memory, or simple-ignorance for the wilful sort. I'm not part of any conspiracy. In a simple way, I alluded to the same conclusion in an earlier post. I hope to be educated by the more learned posters, not derided.
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#84 Brownedov
I suspect that the "McLeish for Glenrothes" story is a kite that a McLeish supporter has flown via the Herald and the Times to see what the reaction would be.
I'd like to hear bighullaballoo and Brigadier's views as to whether this is how the game is played.
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#100 oldnat
Could well be so, and the views you solicit will be most interesting if they can get past the mods (or each other?).
In the meantime, now I have the key YouGov survey data in a manageable form, I'm going to spend a while analysing it.
BTW, there's a new Robin Lustig thread on Georgia which could be fun.
See you all later.
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1992 - My flight from Bangkok was just about to start taxi-ing down the runway, when the chap next to me had a heart attack and died. JUST LIKE THAT!! He had been looking rather flustered but lots of people are before a 13 hour flight back to Europe. The flight was stopped in it's tracks, I was asked not to say anything to anyone for fear of upsetting the other passengers! For two hours until the man's luggage etc was retrieved I sat next to that poor soul who was only covered with an airline blanket. Plane was fully booked so nowhere for me to go. Staff just explained that he had a tummy bug!! Luckily I was business class so not nearly as busy as tourist class.
Now that was horrendous, and puts the story about Stobhill into perspective. If the flight had already taken off, I would have been with that poor soul lying next to me, all the way to Calcutta! My thoughts were with his family, as it was just before Christmas. Mind you, the staff kept me going with the finest champagne to soothe my nerves. At least the patients in Stobhill could have been moved out of the ward...........
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#100 oldnat -
I think it's pretty clear from my previous posts which view I take on whether political bias exists in our media. I think those who would have me believe I'm just imagining it have grossly underestimated my ability to dismantle their arguments.
On whether a "kite" is being flown to test the political waters: such kites are definitely possible but it's impossible to "prove" one is being flown - short of an open admission by the person allegedly flying it! And we all know that isn't how political players operate.
The whole point of clandestine attempts to manipulate people's perceptions or surreptitiously determine what people are thinking, is that nobody knows you're doing it.
Spin doctors have a bag of tricks and most of them rely on the user not being discovered in the act. Just ask Jo Moore, formerly of the Labour government's Department of Transport, Local Government and the Regions!
It may be an uncomfortable truth for some media and politicians that ordinary members of the public are as well schooled in these so-called "dark arts" as they are, but I'm afraid they'll just have to live with it!
p.s. namhuga's #102 is a truly wonderful story. Thanks for posting!
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gt-cry
No one has attacked the NHS staff,indeed,many of us think thay are the salt of the earth(many also share their trade union values)
I'am not sure what your argument is,are you saying,ministers of health are not responsible for the day to day functioning of the NHS or are you just making a soft party political point,"SUPPORT BY IGNORANCE"
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Reply to 'bighullabaloo'. Thanks for your comments, every word of that story was the honest truth. What I didn't mention was that my husband was downstairs, in the smoking section! Even he didn't know the story until we arrived in Stockholm! He had heard a request for a doctor before take-off, but presumed it couldn't have been for me, otherwise I would have said!!!
Enough said....................
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Re #103
Media bias is inevitable. I am sure gordon Brown feels the world media are against him, Poor Nick Clegg must feel they simply deliberatley ignore him, I am sure David Cameron feels parts of the media are out to get him.
I am sure all of the above could be supported by links to media items. But this misses the point. We all have the ability to say no to any form of media we don't like. Its called freedom to choose.
Politicians of all sides try to manipulate us every single day. Just now the SNP are doing rather a good job of it. Nicola blaming all the NHS woes on her predecessor is a good example, when in reality she is almost halfway towards the next election.
While I would never be so discourteous as to question your abilities, surely this is just part of having a free media? We can all choose what we listen to, indeed listening to other opinions is what democracy is all about.
I don't see any hidden campaign to stop the SNP message getting out, I think they are quite good at putting it accross. They are very good at hiding the detail and spinning the story just the way all others do. We all make our own choices after examining what is on offer.
If the tabaloids had a hard hitting anti labour pro SNP campaign would we see this thread?
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Re #106
"If the tabloids has a hard hitting anti labour pro SNP campaign would we see this thread"
Well I suspect this is something we are not going to find out about in the near future ..... is it !
The point here is not whether some rag has political bias, of course they do, it is whether this is acceptable in a publically funded media organisation (the BBC) to have those in charge shape the message according to their political beliefs.
We have no option but to pay for the BBC, so it's not a simple as saying that we should just ignore it.
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I bunked off early last night, so just a few points to catch up: 1. Reporters write stories which are almost always factual, fair and free of legal pitfalls. 2. Sub-editors write the headlines, which, if they don't please the editor, may be changed. 3. Editors take policy decisions based on their own, or, believe me, very rarely, the proprietor's aims and beliefs. Hand on heart (yes, I have one) I was never in 45 years told what to write, never mind what to think.
Stories are often rewritten, to include or exclude material which supports or weakens the "editorial line." But facts cannot be changed. They can, however, be selected. A world of difference; the former gets you into court on serious charges, the latter keeps your nose clean.
Too many tabloids mix fact with opinion in the same piece, a cardinal sin of journalism.
Step away from the hangman's noose analogy and consider the England football manager portrayed as a turnip. It cannot be fact. Is it bias? I'd say it was an attempt to convey the opinion of the paper in a rather offensive, but eye-catching, manner. Now, look again at the noose.
A number of contributors here are mixing fact with opinion in the most cavalier way. A blog is the right place to do this, so no complaints.
To cut this short, of course there is bias in the media. But to return to a point I made earlier, what sensible person buys a paper s/he knows has certain opinions and proceeds to rage to the world about it? Buy a paper that suits your personality, or complain to the editor. They do see the letters, I assure you.
At the end of the day the reader is the judge of truth or bias, and what sources they can rely upon for facts. Allowing that most readers are more interested in soap opera than politics (same thing?) the circulation figures tell their own story.
Agree or disagree, I think I've exhausted my opinions on this one.
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#100 oldnat: This can happen. The papers don't really know if they're being used, or given a genuine lead. But I can assure you, nobody every pulled the same stunt twice on me!
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I find it incredible that so many are jumping to the defence of the Governement, these are probably the same people that have spent the past years shouting the odds every time there has been any sort of hospital controversy and blaming the Hollyrood government (in my opinion this is blatantly not an issue that is the fault of the Scottish government it is a procedural issue and the only invovlement that the government should have is taking a not of the reasons why it happned and accepting the hospitals assertion that it will never happen again.
As i earlier eluded to i very much doubt the tone of these comments would have been so positive had it been the previous exectuive. This constant reference to media bias against the SNP is ridiculous, there are as many media outlets that are so pro-snp it at times it feels as if reading a newsletter, if you guys have so much problem with Brians blogs go read some of the editorials in those papers.
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#104 derekbarker
Love the typo in my name!
I'm not saying Health Ministers are responsible for day-to-day running of the NHS. Although, they are not! They are the Government's Minister for Health. The individual Health Trust's are responsible for the running of their particular trust.
Nor was I making a party-point. I was merely putting the story in perspective. If you can't see that it is an isolated, staff-orientated mistake, which happened on a slow-news day and was given undue attention by the press, which I believe other posters have proven, is biased against the SNP. I am not an SNP supporter per se; I am a nationalist. What I cannot understand is why you seem to be calling for a "Full-blow Public inquiry" into the "negligent" SNP losing control of "the peoples NHS"?
Was the NHS that much better in April 2007? Did it transcend into chaos between then and now? What are you trying to pursue? If it's argument for argument's sake, you're doing a good-job but shouting the odds doesn't make a point- it just generates noise and tends to make people move away from it's source!
So, take a breath and try again?
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#106 - northhighlander
Not sure if the person whose abilities you are "too courteous to question" is me or not, but if it is, then here's my response. You're right about this: the freedom to publicly promote whatever politically-biased viewpoint you wish is a fundamental liberty of a free-thinking society.
If I was arguing this freedom should be in any way curtailed I would have to concede the argument. But I'm not arguing it be curtailed. I'm merely pointing out that it exists.
Much to my amazement, I still have people on here trying to tell me that because they "don't see it" it doesn't exist and I'm only imagining it.
For example, you have said you don't "see" any hidden campaign to stop the SNP message getting out. There is of course a huge difference between actively publishing anti-SNP stories and stopping publication of pro-SNP stories. I have not said anything about the latter.
It would be virtually impossible to prove such political bias by "omission". However the same is certainly not true of bias by "commission" as my #72 proves beyond any reasonable doubt.
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It's an amusing example of Anaxim's "confirmation bias" (#54) that people here are now admitting political bias does indeed exist in our media but, naturally, there isn't any bias in the media we personally read, because:
(1) If there was we'd instantly see it.
(2) We're all far too intelligent not to see it.
(3) Since we don't see it so it doesn't exist.
(4) Anyone who does see it is imagining it.
Such are the "wheels within wheels" of the murky world of spin.
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gt-cri
Of course minister have a responsibilty to health issue.
It's not argument 4 argument sake.
The fact is,that an unpleasent incident occured "FACT"It is one of many incidents,that have occured under this SNP admin.
Are you really saying,no harm done and everything in the NHS is better under the nat's
go and speak too your wife,seek her advice.
By the way, a nationalist but not an SNP fan.How is Tommy S. these days ........"C DIFF"
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Re- 112
I see very few anti SNP stories in the media. No more than exists for the other parties. I speak as one who feels strongly that all of the parties spin and lie to get our votes. I grind no axe for any of the mainstream parties.
I see a media that does not question the government as they should. A number of previous promises have been broken by the SNP, these have had little publicity.
As to the BBC being a pro Unionist anti SNP organisation, I don't agree, I think the BBC is reasonably fair and tries to be so.
There seems to be a little paranoia in this thread, particularly from pro independence supporters. A debate is only a debate when differing viewpoints are represented.
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A variation on "kite flying" - even the Labour Party are speculating as to leaks about the "Autumn relaunch".
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After an initial look at this blog entry ( stream ? Thread? Which? Can someone tell me?) I 've revisited it. Can I firstly say that no19 richglasgowprincess comes by far nearest to my thoughts on this. As someone who was called to my dying fathers hospital bed and arrived c. 30 minutes "too late" my sympathies are entirely with the deceased's relatives. I was lucky - My Dad had been moved to another room of some sort. Where my self and family were able to be with him in privacy. After nearly six years I am still having to stop and wipe away tears as I write this. If either the sick but recovering guy's curtains or the dead chap's were not closed that is highly unfortunate. But in my view there was no "mistake" here, and I suspect that the original complaint was driven by the trauma of being unexpectadly faced with naked grief. (I am being charitable here)
I am quite boggled but fascinated by the journalist/ media bias angle running thrpough all this. no. 48 oldnat - Are you sure your quote is from LibDems, not your own party? Nationalists seem to be all over all political blogs like a rash..... And as for Lib dems.... we all know trying to organise them is like herding cats - don't we?
Death and taxes ( politics) will always be with us but a legitimate discussion as to the implications of the death of an MP is a much more valid topic for discussion than hysterical over reaction to the sad fact that people die in hospitals and that other patients are uncomfortably close to /aware of that.
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114,
Trip trap, trip trap...
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As promised (threatened?) in my #101, I'm starting to grind through some of the stats to try to paint a picture of the starting point of the parties in Glenrothes.
I'll post some details as I get them, but first just a brief thought on turnout, which many may agree with me was a pretty important factor in Glasgow East being so close.
If the by-election is held before Thursday 4 December, it will be on the "old" electoral roll based on 15 October 2007 data, except for the few who have availed themselves of the "Rolling Register" facility and added or removed themselves proactively. A public service announcement by the BBC would be a good idea, as the "rolling" delay is 6 weeks.
Staleness of the register alone will probably have a depressing impact on turnout, being most probably at least 3 months mouldier than the Glasgow East register was.
Turnout in Glasgow East fell by 12.3% from 48.2% in 2005 to 42.3%. Even though it will be a non-holiday period, my guess is that Glenrothes turnout falls by about 15% from 56.1% to about 47.7%. Past, and especially recent, results seem to confirm that the incumbent party generally suffers more from a low turnout than its nearest opponent. Turnout much below 47% is thus likely to produce a pretty spectacular result for the SNP. Unless this thread's topic really has legs, of course.
If anyone knows of big population movements in the area since 2005, perhaps they would post some details as that will obviously be a potential factor.
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#114
Sigh, You haven't understood a word, have you?
Of course, ministers have a responsibility-just not for the day-to-day running. They are called a hospital, or ward manager.
Yes, an "unpleasant incident" occured; whether it is one of many which have occured in addition to the other occurences which happen every day, some good, some bad. People make mistakes. I seriously doubt the political party in Government would have had any effect on this one, regardless of their stances on the NHS.
At no point have I said the NHS is better, or worse, then it was before the SNP gained power- You said it is worse, so back it up!
My being a Nationalist is not to affiliate myself with any political party- I believe in an Independent Scotland; we all know that if and when that is secured, the SNP won't be the only party to seek power! I'll vote for my choice when the parties set-out their policies for an Independent Scotland.
Tommy S is no hero of mine!
You still haven't answered my questions in #111. Or is it the shouting starting again?
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PS number 113 - How true! My Dad took the Daily Telegraph because" It 's the only unbiased newspaper in Britain!" the fact that it pretty much reflected his fairly right wing views, and was sometimes the only paper available whilst serving in the Navy had nothing to do with it :-)
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"At the end of the day the reader is the judge of truth or bias" (#108)
Just think it's worth pointing out that "truth" and "bias" are not opposites.
If something is "biased" it doesn't mean it can't be "true". People can and do make biased statements they believe to be 100% "true" (#72).
The test of "political bias" is whether a statement or story encourages people to view a political party more favourably or less favourably than another political party.
The question of whether the party deserves to be viewed more favourably or unfavourably is rarely something we get to confirm in person. We simply have to keep our fingers crossed that our media representatives don't unfairly encourage derogatory judgements about party representatives who don't deserve it.
But the existence of politically-biased statements in newspapers is easily verified as fact and, as I said in one of my earliest posts on this topic, is "as plain as the nose on your face."
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#116 oldnat
"A variation on "kite flying""
If they really expect "Gordon Brown ... to ... decontaminate ... failing brands." it'll be more like a Lead Zeppelin.
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#117 Supertramp
I'm in no party (been in 3 different ones at various times!) - I don't trust any set of politicians! But I'll lend my support to whichever one more nearly matches my views at any one time - currently the SNP, but no doubt another one after independence.
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# 115 northhighlander
"I see very few anti SNP stories in the media. No more than exists for the other parties."
I haven't claimed that anti-SNP stories are any more prevalent than pro-SNP stories.
I'd be interested to hear what you base your belief on that there is a roughly even balance of stories that are "pro" or "anti" a particular party.
I suspect that's based purely on your gut feeling according to the specific sources of news you read.
As I have now repeated a few times, just because you believe something is true doesn't make it true.
And there is a lot of confusion here about whether or not something is "true" or whether something is "biased." See my #122.
I made the claim that there are politically-biased statements in our media.
The reponses so far have been:
(1) To flatly deny such bias exists and/or that I am just imagining it.
(2) To reject a claim I didn't make: i.e. that there are more "anti-SNP" stories than "pro-SNP" stories. I'm not claiming this.
(3) To reject another claim I didn't make: that there is a hidden campaign to "stop pro-SNP" stories appearing. I didn't claim this either.
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You may have seen the story about the UN being very critical of Labour's legislation limiting free expression, but if you haven't its here
It's not just the SNP, Liberal, Lib-Dems, and Tories, who are concerned about the way this country's free speech is being censored .........
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Oh, yes, and I forgot to mention:
It's a short leap of "logic" from dismissing a person who sees something you don't see as simply "imagining it", to accusing that same person of being "paranoid".
This is an abusive little twist in the tale from some people who would like us to believe that only what they believe is the real "truth".
It's always worth remembering that just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not to get you!
LOL ;-)
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I think this is the most ridiculous thing i have ever heard.
When did death become something that must be hidden.
Death comes to us all its a NORMAL part of life.
It just happens to be the end part.
I can understad why people dont want to think about death being near them its scary to think people die every day and one of them might possiblly be you. But for goodness sake where is the compassion and respect for the person who has died for thier loved ones and families.
I would say to those who had complained if that was your loved one would you rather the hospital staff had ignored your wishes to please everyone else or acted with the compassion they did at one of the most diffiuclt ordeals every family or person has to suffer at some point. I think everyone who ciriticised over this should be thouroughly ashamed of themselves.
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My final word for the moment about the question of "bias":
If I want to read news stories that favour a particular political party then I will go out and purchase that newspaper or read that paper's website. The idea that someone would be stupid enough to go out and buy a politically-biased newspaper and then complain about the fact that it's biased is, of course, absurd.
If, however, I'm reading political coverage on the BBC, where one of the central values of its news operation is "impartiality" (i.e. absence of bias) and I detect what I perceive to be bias (as defined in my #72) then it would be nice to be able to say so without:
(1) Being told I'm imagining it.
(2) Being accused of being "paranoid".
(3) Being accused of making a load of unprovable claims I'm not making.
Or, last but not least: being censored for having the audacity to criticise the BBC for not living up to their own standards of impartiality.
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gt -cri
Oh, now,it's, health ministers have responsibility sometimes!
give your fingers a break and stop transcending tosh.
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One for us oldies from Faux News
;-)
ed
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N ed,
tipsy, turvy, I thought it was just about as much sense,as Trip,Trap.
Enjoy the view.....
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Surf's up!
;-)
ed
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PS to my #119
To make the first cut prediction of the result, I have simply used the changes from the 2005 GE result implied by the latest YouGov poll to Scottish Westminster seats.
The YouGov figures of SNP 36%, Lab 29%, Con 18%, LibDem 13%, Other 5% translate to the following changes to party allegiance since 2005: SNP +101.78%, Lab -26.14%, LibDem -21.23%, Con -18.68%, Other -1.17%.
Taking the Glenrothes GE results of Lab 51.91%, SNP 23.37%, LibDem 12.65%, Tory 7.09%, Other 4.98%, if we apply the national change percentages we get a first cut prediction of Lab 36.12%, SNP 44.42%, LibDem 9.39%, Tory 5.44%, Other 4.64%.
If my prediction of a turnout no higher than 47.7% is right that would give the SNP a majority of about 2,700.
Remember, this does not take into account the quality of the candidates, local issues or any squeeze effect we often see at by-elections, but enough to believe that "Duff" Gordon really doesn't want the by-election early, I think.
Feel free to copy this post. I'll aim to be back later with some analysis based on the YouGov poll Holyrood voting intentions.
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Ah , predicted politic's, the contrived belief that z will follow on from Y.
Can the man with the crystal ball,tell us the winning numbers for this weeks lottery.
The returning officer will decide the turnout,at a glace,I would suggest your method is at least 50.3% out by definition of actual votes...
OK. ed, NHI
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#135 derekbarker
Glad to know NuLab sycophants believe in the scientific method.
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Now! Now, you know better than too reply to a troll.
Good luck with your predictions. Who will the liberals choose as their candidate?
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#136 Brownedov
After your excellent stats work on the Glasgow East by election I'm keen to see your predictions for Glenrothes.
Taking your "first cut" prediction at face value your probabilites would see the SNP opening as odds on favourites in a betting book.
Of course the real bookies will have their own opinion. It will be interesting to see how they call it this time. Clearly they got it just slightly wrong the last time!
There are no bookies' odds available as yet but they will appear in due course, once they know who the candidates are, etc.
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PS to my #134
This, as Peter Snow would say, is a just a bit of fun and I will not post it on the UK-wide threads for fear of frightening the unionist horses.
Bearing in mind that Glenrothes is a by-election and not part of a general election, I think there's a reasonable case for arguing that voter behaviour may be more like the YouGov Scottish Constituency Voting Intentions than the Westminster ones.
On that basis we can apply the YouGov figures of SNP 44.0%, Lab 25.0%, LibDem 14.0%, Con 13.0%, Other 4.0% which translate to the following changes to party allegiance since 2007: SNP +54.75%, Lab -10.01%, LibDem +0.16%, Con -9.36%, Other +115.09%.
"Other" didn't stand in Fife Central in 2007 but we can be sure some will in the by-election so we'll give them nearly 4% and adjust the the percentages of the other parties proportionately.
The would give a result something like: Lab 29.77%, SNP 53.75%, LibDem 7.05%, Con 5.59%, Other 3.85%.
On a 47.7% poll, that would give the SNP a majority in excess of 7,500.
I've double-checked all the calculations and can't spot anything wrong with them. I do realise they're extrapolations but the range of my 2 predictions is hardly wildly different from Glasgow East bearing in mind the swings required. If anyone has any better data, please share it!
By-election postponed to 2010, anyone?
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Re Bias 129
Equally Just because you believe there is bias it doesn't mean it actually exists. This will always be a subjective judgement.
The BBC is an institution that is generally believed to be as impartial as it can be. I fully accept your right to believe differntly but that doesn't mean your opinion is right.
When humans are involved there will always be an element of bias. I don't believe the institution is biased.
By mentioning paranioa I believe the SNP support still regails in their victim status, which they need to move on from
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#138 bighullabaloo
As an expat, I only get to see the odds on the web. If there are real odds being quoted in the betting shops I would be most interested to know them.
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#140 northhighlander -
"Equally Just because you believe there is bias it doesn't mean it actually exists. This will always be a subjective judgement."
If a newspaper runs the headline: "Vote SNP and you put Scotland's head in the noose" then my judgment is that the newspaper is biased in favour of a political party other than the SNP.
If you can explain how someone could read that headline and interpret it to mean anything other than that the newspaper is trying to persuade voters not to vote for the SNP then I will agree with you that the bias is simply a figment of my imagination.
I'm betting you can't.
And if you can't then everybody here will be able to see that you can't and the bias is not just my subjective reaction but is, in fact, an objective fact.
Looking forward to it! You've got until 10.00pm, or you lose.
p.s.
"When humans are involved there will always be an element of bias. I don't believe the institution is biased."
I think you will find that the "institution" (the BBC) is staffed by humans, and therefore (based on your own logic) bias would be inevitable.
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#140 northhighlander
"The BBC is an institution that is generally believed to be as impartial as it can be."
That statement is often true on non-political matters, but from the days of Reith there has been a pro-establishment bias which inevitably tends to work in favour of the government of the day. To date, they don't seem to have noticed that there are two governments operating in Scotland or when they do they tend to defer much more to the London one than the Edinburgh one.
In politics the bias is more evident as the BBC does promote the wonders of the 1872 plurality voting system while at the same time advertising the "main" party leaders in a shamelessly presidential way.
If you want to see the result of that political bias in action, just look at any HYS political thread and count the myriad posts in the "I voted for Blair not Brown" vein and you'll surely agree that the Reithian task of educating its audience isn't working too well.
Was it bias to pull Michael Crick's story about MacDougall's prolonged sick leave during the Glasgow East campaign to avoid the issue being brought up re Marshall? Was it bias to delay the investigation of Marshall's office extravaganza until the last day of the campaign?
I am not a nationalist but a Liberal federalist so have no desire to defend Sturgeon here, but then I don't need to. Let's just say this is not a storyline the BBC can feel very proud of.
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#140 northhighlander
You've still got five minutes....we're waiting!
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# 140 northhighlander
And there we have it!
You have failed to explain how that headline could be interpreted in any other way than that the newspaper is trying to persuade people not to vote for the SNP.
The reason you can't do it is that no rational person could read that headline and interpet it to mean anything other than taht the newspaper is biased against the SNP.
That's not my subjective judgment - it's an objective fact. No reasonable person could disagree with that.
So, congratulations, you can now regale in your new "loser" status.
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#139 Brownedov
Just been crunching the numbers myself (should have saved myself the time, since I agree with your conclusions).
I think the critical assumptions are
1. that the area from East Wemyss to Kinglassie (in Glenrothes but not Central Fife) votes the same way as Central Fife.
2. that in a Westminster by-election, voters will operate on a Scottish rather than British election basis.
If I were Henry McLeish, and wanted to become an MP, I'd let someone else lose the by-election, then have a stab at retaking it at the GE.
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# 141 Browndov -
These days the odds on the web and the odds in the betting shops are the same at all times. If they weren't you'd have conmen taking advantage of the time delay in updating prices to take the bookies to the cleaners - something like Redford and Newman did in "The Sting"!
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Federalism,the decentralization of power closer to the people,a theory many attach too the principles of liberalism,effective?Hmmm,take Belgium,a federal state,at the heart of the EU's greater federal system,in Belgium you will find division and a strong case of nationalism,not quite,the idealistic portrait of federalism.
The problems federalism could encounter,could be simple issue like, what side of the road you drive on,could you imagine, debate after debate,on trivial issues.
Federalism,complex,difficult and not quite full of truths.
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I have just skim read this post and comments today.
Can I ask what this has to do with Scottish Politics and the running of this country?
What next? Brian Taylors' blog on how the development of Dundee Utd can reduce the carbon footprint of greater Dundee and Tayside as a whole?
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# 149 BoNG0_1 -
You can ask, but don't expect any answers based on anything other than the rock-solid, unassailable certainty of people who want to insist they're right just because they believe something is true, and want you to accept that without question.
Any challenge is met either with no answer at all or an answer devoid of rational argument, supporting evidence, and in some cases even any sign of basic common sense (we're talking Jim Ignatowski of the American sitcom Taxi here).
Good luck!
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Re: Brownedov and his home made swingometer ;o)
I'm reminded of Gazza's immortal words: "I never predict anything, and I never will do!"
More seriously, thanks for coming up with some plausible-looking numbers - will be interesting to see how they compare to the final result, whenever that comes.
Re: bighullabaloo and the saga of media bias
As Humbert Wolfe memorably put it:
"You cannot hope
to bribe or twist,
thank God! the
British journalist.
But, seeing what
the man will do
unbribed, there's
no occasion to."
No offence to yourself or the brigadier, couldn't resist ;o)
On the subject of twisting, in your ps of #142 I think you rather misrepresent northhighlander's logic. I suspect their contention was that the BBC "institution" does not have a policy of being biased. Indeed the BBC certainly emphasise impartiality at every turn (e.g. see the report at http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbctrust/research/impartiality.html). To quote the first lines of the foreword:
"Impartiality has always been (together with independence) the BBC’s defining quality. It is
not by chance that all BBC staff carry an identity card which proclaims as the first of the
BBC’s values that they are independent, impartial and honest."
Of course there is a human element at play and so bias inevitably creeps in, as the BBC freely acknowledges. But there's a world of difference between that and a systematic policy of favouring one political party or another.
Apart from anything else, how would an organisation as large as the BBC possibly keep a lid on such clandestine "institutional" bias? It's not as though the BBC wants for enemies, is it? If it's all just a front then hats off, it's a pretty good one.
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#146 oldnat
I'm glad you agree with the basics and full accept that Fife Central is not quite Glenrothes.
My #139 does recognise it's only a bit of fun, whereas my #134 is more or less where anybody should start until and unless we have a proper detailed local poll. That's pretty much consistent with Glasgow East before even thinking about candidates or campaigns.
I fully agree that #139 requires more assumptions, but OTOH it does only need to extrapolate one year's changes of mind rather than 3+.
Frankly, I suspect it will only matter to someone wanting to place a bet on the size of the majority and I have no sympathy with them if they do. I also agree re McLeish. If he waits until the GE he may well not have such an unpleasant neighbour.
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#151 forfar-loon
LOL at your Wolfe quote
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# 151 forfar_loon
"there's a world of difference between that and a systematic policy of favouring one political party or another."
Okay, now if you can just point me to where I claimed here that the BBC has a "systematic policy of favouring one political party or another" then I might be able to work out why you are accusing me of claiming that.
I'd really appreciate it if you'd read what I am actually claiming (I've said it often enough here) before you start correcting me on claims I haven't made.
If you do take the time to actually read what I've written you'll see that I make the precise point that the BBC's central value is "impartiality" (#129) so you are rather behind the curve on that.
p.s. I already know you won't be able to show me where I make this claim so I assume that, like the rest here, you will simmply forget it and hope nobody notices you've made a mistake.
However given the way things work here I'm not holding my breath for your admission of error, never mind the apology I'm due.
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# 151 forfar-loon
"Of course there is a human element at play and so bias inevitably creeps in, as the BBC freely acknowledges."
What I have claimed is that instances of localised bias sometimes creep into the BBC's political coverage.
Based on what you've written above you appear to think so too.
Of course, only an idiot would make the absurd claim that the BBC has an institutional policy of favouring one political party over another. I have made no such claim. If that is a claim that northhighlander was trying to refute, then it's not a claim made by me.
However I cannot agree with you that the BBC freely acknowledges claims of such localised bias.
If you want to see what happens to such claims read my #88 above.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#154 bighullabaloo:
Believe it or not I have to go pick up the missus from a hen-do now (otherwise I'd have long since been in bed) so this will have to be quick. A brief glance at some of your earlier posts brought up the following...
#15 "I find it truly offensive that such an incident is being turned into a political football by a supposedly "impartial" news organisation."
I presume you were referring to the BBC here? It does seem rather as though you are casting doubt on the BBC's impartiality.
#32 "I've said all along that the desperation of the Unionist media is forcing them into writing more and more obviously-biased articles trying to bad-mouth the SNP with anything they think might stick.
I feel totally vindicated in having pointed that out, although I didn't expect their politically-motivated agenda to be as fully exposed quite as quickly as it has been...
...I think we'll see considerably more people having their eyes opened as a result of this article,..."
Again, presumably you are including the BBC ("this article") in "the Unionist media".
#45 "And - again no surprise - media owners can and sometimes do have very strong political views. An interesting question to ask oneself is: "who is at the top of the food chain in the BBC's case?"
I don't think anyone here seriously doubts that there's political bias in the news stories we see in various Scottish newspapers and websites every day. That's not a "conspiracy theory". It's as plain as the nose on your face!"
The proximity of your wondering who is at the top of the BBC food chain to your reference to political bias in various "Scottish newspapers and websites" certainly gives the impression of including the BBC in your criticism.
I'll look at the remainder of your posts when time permits. Apologies if that misses a unilaterally imposed deadline that you set for me to reply by!
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Another day, another dent,
Local meeting tomorrow,Mrs Whitedov's feathery hat,does not conform to article 5 of the federal feathery hats act.Sure to be some plain sailing on this one.......
Keep up the good work pugwash or should that be whitewash.........
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# 157 forfar-loon
In every case you cite I am not claiming the entire BBC suffers from systematic institutional bias. I am in every case referring simply to a localised one (that's as clear as I am allowed to make it).
The post where this I make the claim of localised bias (#88) has been anything but "freely acknowledged by the BBC" as anyone here can confirm for themselves.
I can't make it any clearer. Read my #155 sevreal times if you're still not getting it.
If you are going to come back and acknowledge that you've wrongly accused be of making a claim I haven't made then feel free to take as long as you need.
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# 151 forfar-loon
I've looked again very carefully at your #157 and you have "presumed" in two instances that I am referring to the whole institution of the BBC (when I'm not) and that I've "given the impression" of referring to the whole BBC in a third instance.
Where do I claim that "the BBC has a systematic policy of favouring one political party over another"?
I don't.
I mention the "Unionist media" but where do I say I regard the entire BBC as part of it?
I don't.
I mention bias in Scottish newspapers and websites. Where do I claim the entire BBC website is guilty of it?
I don't.
My claim was that there are instances of localised bias in the BBC's political coverage.
You don't have to be Einstein to work out what I'm talking about.
But I'm afraid you can't read it, because despite your certainty that localised instances of bias are "freely acknowledged", that's not what's actually happened in this case.
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Brian:
I hope you have got the excellent medical care!
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seeing as the thread has decended into a discussion about bias i thougt i would stick my tuppence worth in.
At the moment there is no scientific measure of bias for media articles (newspapers television)
One wonders why a system of measuring bias has never been developed i know one study was done in america but seemed very convoluted.
It did in fact show that there was a liberal bias within sections of the media.
I dont preted to know what an american liberal bias is.
However no such study has ever been conducted here. I therefore have to conclude that newspapers and other media are not interested in using science to discover political bias but instead just want to use science and statistics to sell papers. (anyone who has completed one of those survery popups will know what i mean)
There is therefore no PROOF that bias exists there is also no PROOF that it doesnt
everytime that someone says that the newspapers are or are not biased is therefore not adding anything.
Why dont instead of discussing bias everyoen actually discuss how to prove or disprove bias?
Now that would be something i would be very interested in talking about.
My own theory is that using photographs to measure bias would be most interesting.
For each newspaper you could count the number of photoraphs of politicians and assign them to their political parties. This way you could see which party had the most visual newspace and bias would obviously then be evident. As a hypothesis you could have the scottish government has more/less photographic coverage than other parties.
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Karin,
but of course, that would be biased by the fact that one is "the government" and the others simply "parties"....there is also the fact that Not all photos are flattering;-)
ed
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#162 karinm
You are talking about a scientific study of statisical bias. Such bias could be the result of a subconscious disposition on the part of journalists to favour one political party over another, without them even being aware of it.
I am not talking about this type of subtle pyschological bias that sometimes shows up in as a tendency for people to favour certain ideas over other ideas.
If a newspaper carries a headline reading: "Vote SNP today and you put Scotland's head in the noose" I don't need a scientific study to tell me the writer of that headline favours one political party over another. It's a real headline that appeared in a real newspaper.
I can say with absolute certainty that the writer of that headline is politically biased against the SNP.
That is not my subjective opinion. It is an objective fact. No rational person could argue this headline shows anything other than a desire to encourage people not ot vote for the SNP.
Except I have got people on here trying to tell me that the headline doesn't show political bias, that it's all a matter of opinion and that I'm just imagining the bias.
If someone reads such a headline and then tries to argue it doesn't show a bias in favour of one political party over another then you have to conclude that their own political bias is preventing them from seeing reality.
Reality is what - to the best of our ability - we all agree upon is actually there even though we all experience it subjectively as individuals.
I am getting a little tired of people trying to tell me that a political bias that obviously exists at that newspaper would have to be measured using a statistical sampling technique before it could be "proved".
Only an idiot would doubt that it exists.
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For "bias", read "giving the people what they want".
With particular reference to newspapers, they have to cater to their buying public (since those purchasers, and the advertisers wishing to reach them, are paying the bills) unless you have some other selling point - in the distant past, the Currant Bun could have left every page blank bar Page 3 and still sold quite a few copies.
Ridiculing the mild xenophobia of the Mail and the Diana obsession of the Express has been good sport. How dull would life be if every newspaper had to report "just the facts, ma'am," without putting their idiosyncratic spin on the news?
Does ANYONE actually still use newspapers to learn about world events?
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#162, karinm
"My own theory is that using photographs to measure bias would be most interesting."
How would you interpret the outcome, though?
I am sure that Tony Blair got coverage from newspaper editors wanting to ridicule him by pointedly drawing attention to the woman on his arm - almost certainly the least attractive spouse of any Prime minister in history.
(Given the choice, I would rather have a wife who looked like the late Dennis Thatcher than Cherie!!!)
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I do hope the dictates of "balance" in photographic (un)coverage doesn't extend to the US elections. I see water-wings and one of those old-timey striped full body suits. (ugh!)
;-)
ed
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#164, bighullabaloo
"I can say with absolute certainty that the writer of that headline is politically biased against the SNP."
Probably.
But the writer may rather have been biased in favour of Labour, and rightly saw the SNP as the only real threat last May.
Is it more palatable to have a bias against one party than in favour of another?
I've never been a member of any political party, but I have occasionally given a contribution to party funds (and I have always exercised my right to vote) based on what I SUPPORTED rather than what I OPPOSED.
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#165 cousteau686
"Does ANYONE actually still use newspapers to learn about world events?"
Let's assume no one does.
The question then is: where DO people learn about world events? The answer is through television, radio and the internet.
Are these sources of news about world events free of the sort of political bias that exists in newspapers?
I'd suggest they aren't.
I suggest, rather, that people suffer from the sort of wrong-thinking outlined in my #113 above.
And I don't think it requires a scientific study to prove people working in television, radio, are guilty of the exactly the same sort of political bias as their newspaper counterparts.
It's staring you in the face.
The only remaining question is whether the bias is as frequent, prominent, or blatant.
I'd say (this is my personal, subjective, judgement) that it is not...yet.
However I don't think it takes much intelligence to see why most younger people have turned their backs on newspapers as their preferred source of news about world events.
Their naivety is touching, but that is the glory of youth.
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Any of you who are old-style SF buffs may know that in "Methuselah's Children" Heinlein postulated a system in which public broadcasters were limited as to the "emotional loading" of the words they used.
Following a recent article (I've forgotten where), there has been correspondence in the Herald about the use by Unionist journalists of such "loaded" language.
The use of emotionally charged, rather than neutral language is usually a pretty sure sign of bias in the article, and obvious to a dispassionate observer or "the enemy".
Unfortunately, when such an article is written by "one of us", the emotional language matches our own, and we simply don't see it.
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#168 cousteau696
Since you've asked a reasonable, rational question, let me give you a reasonable, rational answer. Not only that my answer is based on freely available, easily verified fact.
The writer of the headline gave a very clear indication of who they were biased against (the SNP).
But they also gave an equally unmistakable indication of which political party they wer biased in favour of.
The full headline read: "Vote SNP today and you put Scotland's head in the noose".
The sub-headline read: "‘Only Labour can save us from a living nightmare’."
So the writer was clearly both biased against the the SNP and biased in favour of Labour.
Your question was: "Is it more palatable to have a bias against one party than in favour of another?"
My answer is no, it isn't more palatable. Both types of bias are equally deserving of contempt.
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# 170 oldnat
Thank you for an extremely interesting contribution. As someone with a particular interest in such things I'll be sure to check that out.
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#169 cousteau696
Sorry, it wasn't the sub-headline that read: "Only Labour can save us from a living nightmare" it was the headline of the editorial article inside the newspaper.
The editorial, as I'm sure you know, contains the opinion of the editor of the newspaper. Whether this particular opinion also reflected the opinion of the newspaper proprietor is not clear.
According to the veteran journalist brigadierjohn (#108): "Editors take policy decisions based on their own, or, believe me, very rarely, the proprietor's aims and beliefs."
So, I would say this appears to be one of those less rare occasions where an editor has shown their own political bias in favour of one political party (Labour) over another (the SNP).
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bighullabaloo
Thoe original article was by Harry Reid in the Herald on 2 August. Also see
Web Journal of Current Legal Issues
Herald piece
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Hullabaloo,
Am I being naive to expect that anyone seeing the headline and sub-headline to which you refer, would expect an "opinion piece", rather than an "objective" news report?
Slainte!
ed
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#175 Ed Iglehart
I think people reading headlines on the front pages of newspapers generally expect them to be "objective" or "factual". That particular headline was "opinion".
The fact that an opinion was offered in a front-page headline - where people have been long become accustomed to trusting they will find a factual statement - is one of the main reasons why I object to it.
The headline of editorials inside a paper and editorial articles in general, are widely understood to be the editor's personal opinion (see #173).
So my objection doesn't apply to the editorial headline. However, I was only using the editorial headline (Only Labour can save us from a living nightmare) to answer cousteau696's question about whether it is more unpalatable to have a bias against one party than in favour of another. So I'm not objecting at all to a newspaper exercising it's right to have an opinion in an editorial article - political or otherwise.
In relation to using opinion in this headline: I agree with Ian Macwhirter's view about it (in his Guardian article of May 3, 2007) that: "It is an offence against democracy for the press to seek to influence public opinion by such blatant and crude propagandising - more like a tin-pot dictatorship than a modern democracy.
"...to use such intemperate language...is simply the politics of the gutter."
That perfectly sums up my objection to this type of politically-biased journalism.
Given that reason, why anyone would consider trying to defend that headline is totally beyond my understanding.
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# 175 Ed Iglehart
I think assuming no one would be naive enough not to recognise this headline as opinion is probably more a reflection of your own belief that since you wouldn't be that naive, then neither would anyone else.
The view of Iain Macwhirter, one of Scotland's most experienced political commentators, on that particular question, was: "These papers will be read by a majority of Scots voters. When the newsstands are decorated with lurid claims about Scotland being on the eve of destruction, voters cannot help but be influenced."
So, bowing to his superior experience of the possible influence of political opinion masquarading as fact on the front page of a national newspaper, I'd have to say it isn't something we can just assume would not have an influence.
I think Macwhirter fully understands the power of this type of propagandising, and he is not complacent enough to think that everybody is shrewd enough, or "media-savvy" enough to recognise it.
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In consideration of balanced "opinion" pieces, the following may be of interest or amusement:
The rest of the article is, as usual, well worth the time.;-)
ed
P.S. I wasn't "defending" any headline, but simply noting that such a headline, upon whatever page it might have appeared, would lead to expectations of "straight news" only in the most dense of readers...
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#175 Ed: Call me naive, but I would hope anyone opening a newspaper would expect to find a range of items of interest, from football and the arts, to business and politics, via hard news, soft news, cartoons, etc. Decent market research woud dictate that the reader finds what s/he expects.
Anyone buying a paper (or watching a news broadcast) to find out if Gordon Brown's latest plan was duly praised, or if the SNP had a fair deal, might be advised to choose carefully. And get a life!
Personally, I find the Record is best for breaking sports news, but Hugh MacDonald in the Herald Sport is a better source of fair opinion. And so on.
In the political arena, facts are hard to come by. Much that is fairly reported, is, however, from dubious sources. So what is a fact? An opinion poll? Or does the quoted result depend on how the question was asked? Do we simply report what politicians and football manager say? Even when we suspect, but can't quite prove, that they're lying in their teeth? Many young journalists today seem to think if they've "got a quote" their job is done. And frankly, circumstances in the industry dictate that they don't have time to investigate properly.
I much prefer opinion pieces. The better journalists will always fully acknowledge the positions of those they seek to oppose. And, usually, we know where the author is coming from. (Terrible grammar)
I suppose the advice to journalists and readers is the same: don't rely on a single source.
Now here's a bit of pure unashamed bias: I'm watching the Olympics. I'm a hard-faced cynic. Unimpressed by sentiment. And I shed a tear as Chris Hoy stood on the podium, misty-eyed, as the crowd - from all over the UK - stood and sang our national anthem, and loudly, as they waved the Union Flag.
Who, but a parcel o' rogues, would find the scene offensive?
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# 178 Ed Iglehart
I didn't accuse you of defending the headline. I merely said it's beyond my understanding why anyone would consider trying to defend it.
I don't know if such a headline would fool "only the most dense of readers". That isn't really the issue.
My concern, like Macwhirter's, is tht exactly this type of propagandising is one of the most powerful tools tin-pot dictators use to prop up their despotic regimes.
Anyone who thinks it's acceptable in our country - or who chooses to believe people simply wouldn't be fooled by it - can keep their head buried in the sand if they want to.
I'm afraid I don't think it's acceptable.
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#178 Ed
It's unfair of you to traduce potential Unionist voters as "only the most dense of readers". Some of them are quite bright!
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#177 bighullabaloo
Have to agree with you. I think it's rather like the fact that many people claim to be wholly uninfluenced by advertising. Were that so, then companies wouldn't spend the vast sums they do on it.
Politicians are well aware of using fear as a tactic. If it didn't work, they would have stopped using it years ago.
You might like Neil Ascherson's take on it
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#179 Brigadier
LOL The Unionist Press need you writing for them now, instead of some of their dire input!
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# 182 oldnat -
I'm sure it hasn't escaped your notice that the people who depend almost exclusively on the power of advertising to provide them with a livelihood, are the same people who can't possibly be accused of trying to influence behaviour with political opinions that appear - oh yes! - right alongside the advertising!
If you are going to argue that the political opinions in newspapers can only influence the most dense of people, then you'd also have to argue that the advertising in newspapers must also only influence the most dense of people.
It might be worth pointing out here that the biggest spenders on advertising in the UK are - oh yes! - the government! That's something this government has in common with every other government of all political persuasions.
So, it would appear the government are our biggest believers in the power of advertising. The question is, do they also believe in the power of political opinion in newspapers to influence voters?
At this point, I hardly think I need to provide the answer, except maybe for the most dense of readers!
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Brigadier
I presume you also enjoyed the interview with Usain Bolt, when the commentator said "especially in England". Disn't that just bring a lump to the throat?
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#184 bighullaballoo
Stop over reacting! I was agreeing with you.
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The Westminster bubble continues its navel gazing. The Guardian has speculation on Murphy. Oh good that means two full time Ministers with no job or responsibility, other than to try to challenge the SNP - oh, and we're paying for them!
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#186 oldnat
And I'm agreeing with you!
Thanks for the info on the Harry reid article #174.
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Fascinating discussion so far. Is there media bias? - of course there is. Do politicians take advantage of it? Yep, they sure do. Is the BBC biased? Harder one, the BBC has to be very conscious of the Government's position. In London, that means Labour - in Scotland, the SNP. However, the fact that the Conservatives appear to be a government in waiting means a more nuaunced approach to Conservative politicians. After all, the BBC relies on government funding and would prefer to avoid charges of being violation of its Charter particularly by an incoming government.
As for the 'head in the noose' story, supposing that story had been planted by someone other than a Labour sympathiser in order to damn both Labour and SNP. Would that not be a true triumph of the political black arts?
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#183 old nat: I would never base a political opinion on an emotional response to a sporting event. It's just a bit of fun to get a response. It's like a bullring here: you can posture and pontificate all day long, but show a wee corner of the red rag and the bull as at you like lightning. It never fails.
#185: So an uneducated Jamaican boy is a bit dodgy on geography. Does that bring a red mist to your eyes?
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#190: Sorry, it was the commentator who said it. But same question, really.
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#185: I suppose some people are predisposed to picking up on these slights. Your Scottishness never struck me as being that fragile.
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Advertising and politics (to continue the theme)
James Forsyth in the Spectator has this on Labour's autumn relaunch
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#192 Brigadier
As my #183 showed, I appreciated the humour of your original comment. I presumed you would see my #185 in a similar light.
I didn't think you were so misunderstanding of irony.
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Since all attempts at logical counter-argument have failed to dent anything I've written here, the veiled insults are being given yet another outing. Tiresome.
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Brigadier and bigullaballoo
I noticed this in The Telegraph a story concocted from a Sun article.
Is this just silly season stuff, or do political journalists regularly recycle speculation from other papers to fill the column inches?
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#194 oldnat: Truce! I think the blog has got lost. I'll sign off and wait for Brian's next effort. Perhaps he'd like me to write it?
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#197 Brigadier
If you're still here - someone previously suggested Brian should have guest contributors.
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#187 oldnat
Yes, typical Grauniad stuff these days. The bit I fould particularly illuminating was: "Jim Murphy, the minister for Europe, impressed the prime minister with his handling of the Lisbon treaty during its bumpy passage through the Commons, and is being pencilled in as the next Scottish secretary"
I'm not surprised. I watched a great deal of Murphy's presentation at Westmidden and found his performance entirely in the style, and with all the wit, charm and good humour, of The Supreme Leader's norm at PMQs.
The Tories need a 7.03% swing in their favour to take Renfrewshire East from Murphy at the next GE, and I think that's one seat where most posting here, including me, will be wishing them well.
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#196 oldnat:
Some poster here have said they've found the "media bias" aspect of this discussion "interesting" and "fascinating":
#101 Brownedov: "the views you solicit will be most interesting if they can get past the mods"
#117 msSupertramp: "I am quite boggled but fascinated by the journalist/ media bias angle running thrpough all this."
#189 Dick-Whittington: "Fascinating discussion so far."
I took up the media theme at your invitation in your #25: "So if the media are the problem, why don't we deal with that issue?"
I've argued lots of positions and provided whatever insights I felt I could based on what I saw during a long media career. If people doubted my experience or disagreed with my viewpoints then I was happy to respond or argue my corner.
But I decided that as soon as insults replaced arguments I would withdraw from the discussion altogether. So there will be no more input from me on media-related issues.
If anyone found my contributions in any way interesting or enlightening then I'm more than happy.
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#196 oldnat
It is indeed "silly season" stuff, but are you saying you disagree with its thrust?
I'm not planning to enmire myself by tracking down the original story, but presumably the actual answer is "at home in the LibDem constituency of Dunfermline & West Fife prior to attending the funeral in Burntisland tomorrow".
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#200 bighullaballoo
I think you can be happy. As always, I learn a lot from you guys.
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#201 Brownedov
I don't think the article is interesting enough to have an opinion on.
I was more interested to learn more from our ex-journalists as to how common it is for journalists to practice re-cycling.
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#200 bighullabaloo
Congrats to both you and brigadierjohn for managing to say as much as you have without resorting to immoderate language. Apart from the mysterious #88 the mods seem to have done a fair job too.
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bighullabaloo
While checking a spelling, I came across a word I didn't know which is apposite to what often happens in blogs - and specifically to you in this one
Ignoratio = "Argument that appears to refute opponent, while actually disproving something not advanced by him"
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#205 oldnat
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Ignoratio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
;-)
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On Jim Murphy, he doesnt deserve to keep his seat .
The seat is more complex that people think in East Ren, yes the tories only need a swing of 7% but they need to get a better candidate than Jackson Carlaw...( he has a bluergh factor) I would suggest that the SNP will take a lot of votes off Labour here as this constituency has a rising poulation and more and more people with young families are moving into this "leafy suburb" which is not to say it is not without its areas of deprivation. The SNP has 3 councillors now in East Ren , one of which , represents Clarkston , busby and Eaglesham, which would have been unthinkable 5 years ago. I am not suggesting that the SNP will take East Ren. Merely ,that the contest is not as clear cut as it once was.
This was once , one of the safest tory seats in Scotland . It certainly isnt a safe labour seat , mind you ...are any ?
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Regarding the Daily Record headline, it would seem to be the sort of front page op-ed which newspapers, particularly tabloids, occasionally do. Was the Sun's front page caricature of William Hague as a dead parrot an example of bias, or opinion? What about 'Rise and be a nation again'? What about the Daily Mail's sermonising over Max Mosley, with 'What Price Morality?'
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#205
Re: Ignoratio
I wonder what that would be in Newspeak...
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#207 richglasgowprincess
Fair enough. My #199 was not so much a hope that a Tory would win Murphy's seat but the hope that Murphy himself will lose it.
It is going to be an interesting question next time, though, as NuLab have quite a few Scottish seats where "indecision" between who can take the seat from NuLab could well allow quite a few of the reptiles to sneak home.
If they have any sense, the SNP, LibDems and Tories will at least have a quiet word at the start of the hustings to try to agree which NuLab seats are going to be fiercely contested by whom.
Last time, the SNP finished 2nd in 19 NuLab seats (inc Martin's), the LibDems in 15 and the Tories in 7. To rid Scotland of all 41 of them it will be necessary to concentrate effort in the right places.
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#208 Anaxim
Here's "the media-watcher's do-it yourself guide to deciding what things are":
bias - a psychological tendency to favour one idea over another
impartiality (opposite of bias) - the absence of any psychological tendency to favour one idea over another
opinion - a spoken or written expression of bias, often impossible to prove beyond doubt due to lack of supporting evidence
fact - a spoken or written expression free of bias, often possible to prove beyond doubt through the presentation of supporting evidence
fiction - an invented or imaginary idea or image that is often indistinguisable from a fact
Ignoratio - see #205
Ignoratio in Newspeak - ungood duckspeak
Taking the William Hague case for illustration it's an example of bias, not opinion.
And, of course, the idea that William Hague is a dead parrot is entirely fictional, although some of Ed Iglehart's
"more dense readers" (#178) may entertain the (totally absurd) idea that it's a fact.
I'm sure you can work out the others for yourself. ;-)
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210: Yes , and there in lies the rub.....
I desperately want Jim Murphy out, not least ,as he is my MP.
But, the thought of the tories back in East Ren makes me shudder.
Some very clever politiking is going to have to take place. Obviously , I want the SNP to win in every one they target . My dream is a UDI declared after winning over 50 % of the seats, but am happy to wait till the referendum :)
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#211 bighullabaloo
LOL Nice to see you back to your old self!
#207 princess
In terms of the governance of Scotland after the next GE, it doesn't matter which party has the next East Ren MP, since Westminster is irrelevant to most things.
Polls suggest the Tories will be a shoo-in. If I were in East Ren, I'd be
1. hoping that the Tories put up an old Etonian type rather than a Goldie as the candidate, so that s/he'll be easier to take next time round (if there is a next time round!)
2. make sure the voters know that the Tories have already won the election in England, and that no more Tory voters are needed in East Ren for them to win
3. get the Lib-Dem and ex-New Labour vote to switch to SNP, rather than to the Tories. The more that vote SNP to "protect Scotland" from Westminster the better.
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#214 oldnat
"make sure the voters know that the Tories have already won the election in England"
All they have to do is quote the current odds:
To Win The Next General Election
Conservative Party 2/7
Labour Party 3/1
Liberal Democrat Party 100/1
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Macwhirter on Glenrothes: "Should Gordon Brown delay the vote - deploying the so-called Travolta-Micawber strategy of staying alive in the hope something turns up?"
oldnat - it looks like the kite's taking a nose dive: "I cannot see Brown honouring the former first minister, Henry McLeish, as candidate for Glenrothes - there is not a lot of mutual respect there."
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#214 Brownedov
Campaigning is much harder than that. People switch off from the bombardment of info from parties at election time. The trick is to shift perceptions enough that the voters start repeating the message to each other at coffee breaks etc, as if it were there own idea That's the bottom line of political manipulation.
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Re my #216
Sorry bighullaballoo, not Brownedov
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Tomorrow's Scotland on Sunday is suggesting there might be a snap poll on September 11.
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#212 richglasgowprincess &
#213 oldnat
I have a great deal of sympathy with both of your wishes unless the LibDems come to their senses in time and stop pretending to be unionists, but the arithmetic is currently against it. SNP were 4th in Renfrewshire East last time, so unless there is tactical voting on a massive scale, if the YouGov national changes are applied locally the results would be something like the following:
Party, 2005, 2008
NuLab, 43.91%, 37.67%
Tory, 29.87%, 28.21%
LibDem, 18.27%, 16.71%
SNP, 6.85%, 16.04%
SSP, 1.11%, 1.36%
The SNP would just about run the LibDems neck and neck for 3rd but most importantly NuLab would hold the seat with a Majority cut from 6,657 to 4,485.
That's the wonderful 1872 plurality voting system that let Bliar slither back in last time folks. If I had a vote there I would hold my nose and vote Tory whoever their candidate was unless there are huge changes before polling day.
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#216 oldnat
The only thing that travels like wildfire in the manner you describe is:
rumour: "an unverified story circulating from person to person and pertaining to an object, event, or issue in public concern."
People have a great deal of trouble distinguishing rumour from fact (see my do-it-yourself guide #211).
The spinspeak for encouraginge people to swap stories that portray otherwise unappealing politicians in an uncharacteristically flattering light is "astroturfing".
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#219 Brownedov
I don't think the arithmetical application of YouGov works in East Ren. It's notoriously difficult to apply national polling data to a single seat, especially where it's demographics are significantly different from the Scottish norm - hence I think in 2010, Glasgow East will revert to Labour and East Ren will go Tory.
East Ren went Labour because large numbers of "Liberal" Tories were seduced by the New Labour message and because of the significant house building and influx of aspirational families which princess referred to. While, the ex Tories might revert to their former allegiances (hence my hope that the Tories put up an "English Cameronian"), I think the aspirational incomers may go significantly to the SNP, since the "Old Labour" that may have been their heritage has disappeared. In other words, they may follow the example of the "aspirational" families in places like Baillieston in Glasgow East, and vote SNP.
Like the princess, I can't see the SNP winning East Ren, but they could push Labour into 3rd place.
If you've checked out my #218, you'll have seen that Scotland on Sunday have accessed the polling station data from 2007 for the areas in Glenrothes, outside the Central Fife constituency.
That data is not normally released, but is usually collected by party agents at the count, when they can - so probably from an internal party source (I imagine SNP).
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#220 bighullabaloo
Dead on! - but it works.
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#218 oldnat
Electrons hot from the press indeed, but frankly it strikes me that it's by a long way NuLabs leastworst option. They must have somebody who can put together a spreadsheet as I did yesterday and realise that the game is up whatever they do.
If "Duff" Gordon goes into his conference with the situation in Glenrothes getting steadily worse and polls showing the result will be more a thrashing than a defeat, even he may not have the brass neck to drone on about his re-launch.
OTOH, if it's a done deal he can pull the re-launch out of the hat as a result of all that listening he's been doing and promise to lead his NuLab Orcs on to victory at the GE.
They might still have the whit to throw him out, especially if the union funds really have dried up, but it would give him a glimmer of a chance of hanging on.
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bighullabaloo
I'd greatly appreciate your views on another Scotland on Sunday story that is just to the right of the eyeline on the article oldnat links to in his #218: Holyrood cash props up Mugabe
When you get into it, it's about the MSPs' pension fund investments in Anglo-American together with quotes from "Duff" Gordon and Cameron about how A-A should " think again". Not quite what the headline is telling you, I think.
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#223 Brownedov
Given Labour's computer expertise in Glasgow East, I prefer to think that they have no one who can use Excel. David Cairns probably monitors this blog, until you do the analysis (he doesn't have anything else to do for his 10,000 plus GBP and allowances).
So if Labour do less badly in Glenrothes than they might have - it's all your fault!
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#221 oldnat
I agree 100% but there is as yet no better published data to go on. I use it merely to show to richglasgowprincess that the SNP have a mountain to climb here, and that there is a danger of NuLab taking the seat with little more than a third of the vote because the opposition may be divided.
The danger is that the Tory vote could be nearly down to its core Tufton Buftons while the Bliarite Tories have an attack of conscience and vote SNP.
And in case anyone thinks I'm a Tory please note that on another BBC blog only yesterday when I was asked to choose between NuLab and the Tories I compared it to being asked to choose between Hitler and Stalin, with the Tories marginally leastworst.
Re your #218, I saw but did not observe. I'll redo my #139 on the basis of the Scotland on Sunday soon.
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#225 oldnat
ROFL - mea culpa
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#225 Browndov
I looked at the story.
It seems to me the headline telescopes matters in the following way:
A invests in B, who might not be "ethically sound".
B invests in C, who is definitely not "ethically sound".
Therefore A invests in C, who is definitely not "ethically sound".
A bit of a stretch perhaps, to then present that unequivocably as A is "propping up" C.
After all, one assumes it was not a conscious intention of A to "prop up" C, and that they would have avoided altogether if they had been aware of the possibility.
That's about all I could read into it.
I think it's interesting that Scotland on Sunday is reporting bookmakers offering the SNP as odds on favourites of 1/4 to win Glenrothes.
This means the bookmakers rate the true chance of an SNP win at around 75% (this is an approximate figure that allows for the bookmakers overround).
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I know that mid-term by-elections aren't necessarily a strong indicator of a GE result - but does anyone know if there has ever been a case in the UK of a sitting PM losing his seat at a General Election? (to save me the hassle of looking them all up).
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See that swine Alec Salmond reducing public expenditure! It wid gie ye the dry boak!
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New Labour's unity is a pleasure to behold.
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#225 oldnat
PS to my #134 & #139
I repeat that this, as Peter Snow would say, is just a bit of fun and I will not post it on the UK-wide threads for fear of frightening the unionist horses.
As suggested by the new figures for the Glenrothes wards in the 2007 SP election in Scotland on Sunday, I have made a third set of calculations. I'm a little sceptical of the report as it seems to imply very low turnouts in the non-Fife Central wards, but it may be that many are LibDem or Tory strongholds and so I'm undercalculating their votes - not that it will make a difference in the NuLab vs SNP fight anyway.
Extrapolating on those results by applying the YouGov Scottish Constituency Voting Intentions, we get a third possible outcome.
The 3 so far are:
Lab 36.12%, SNP 44.42%, SNP majority 2,636
Lab 29.77%, SNP 53.75%, SNP majority 7,543
Labour 29.00%, SNP 54.58%, SNP majority 8,125
All I think we can say at this stage is that the bookies' making the SNP odds-on favourites at 1/4 are not being overly generous.
This all tends to confirm the opinion in my #223 that it is going to be bad news whenever it happens so NuLab might as well get on with it now rather than it risk hanging as a dark cloud over their "Houdini" re-launch.
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#230 oldnat
LOL - and announcing it in the Tory London press, the cad. And don't ask me to calculate how many billions NuLab could have saved by doing just that for the past 11 years.
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#228 bighullabaloo
I agree the story is not much and any bias actually within it is pretty minor, but it was more that analysis of the story itself vs the pretty lurid headline I thought you'd appreciate.
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#229 oldnat
It certainly hasn't happened since 1900 and I don't recall it in the Gladstone / Disraeli era. Before then, PMs were mostly in the HoL, but it might just have happened around the time of Peel.
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#231 oldanat
"While McLeish, 60, has not declared publicly his intention to stand as a candidate, he has been taking soundings behind the scenes from Labour activists"
Sounds like they're trying to make sure Henry's kite doesn't only crash but also bursts into flames.
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#231 oldnat
"It would look as if we had completely run out of talent if we had to go back to someone who resigned in disgrace seven years ago." says it all really.
Oscar Wilde springs to mind: "One must have a heart of stone to read the death of little Nell without laughing."
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Joan Smith in The Independent shows how far apart English and Scottish politics are. Her strategy for a Labour Victory would lose even more votes in Scotland. If she imagines that the Glenrothes voters prefer Cameron to Brown ....!
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236 bighullabaloo
Another casualty of "friendly fire"?
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But let's not forget that there are good stories coming out of 10 Downing Street, courtesy of Tom Watson Labour MP
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#238 oldnat
Absolutely, but I think it's really code suggesting that Johnson, the Harperson and Miliband should get on with getting rid of The Supreme Leader.
She clearly knows that Glenrothes is North of Watford, but beyond that I agree she has no clue of what is likely to motivate the people who live there. The 3 "stars" I mention above are most unlikely to excite them any more than Cameron.
Be fair, though. Most residents of England have lived in a "pure" version of NuLab's 1984 remake for 11 years and have little conception that government could be otherwise - perhaps just a bit chummier if nice Mr C takes over.
Even the 8 year SP coalition did ameliorate "raw" NuLab and a full year of SNP government has demonstrated that there really is an alternative.
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#232 Browndov
"All I think we can say at this stage is that the bookies' making the SNP odds-on favourites at 1/4 are not being overly generous."
The bookies are definitely not known for being overly generous!
However they cannot predict the future either, as their odds for Glasgow East prove.
Here's how the picture looks so far, using your "best chance" figure for an SNP win:
Bookmaker : prob. 0.7500 odds 1/4
Brownedov : prob. 0.5458 odds 5/6
There are a several possibilities:
Bookmaker might be over-estimating, under-estimating, or getting it about right. And the same three possibilites for you.
A "quick and dirty" averaging of the estimates gives prob. 0.6479 odds 4/7.
I've seen one estimate by a serious political bettor that's very close to that: prob. 0.6667 odds 1/2.
So we are starting to see a consensus picture emerging. I look forward to seeing your future predictions.
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#240 oldnat
Another South African import. Hain didn't work out too well.
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ed,
35 in fife,but one.
testing the ale,collecting pre-votes 4 fun.
It's easy...........
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#242 bighullabaloo
Let's see if we get any more data. I'd like to hope that we get a proper local poll with full data published, but it's starting to look so clear cut that Labour will lose that I wonder who will want to pay for such a survey?
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#225 oldnat wrote:
Could David Cairns be the real derekbarker?
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#246 Brownedov
I've seen computer programs that could write better posts than those!
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Labour seem in totally in self-destruct mode. I don't think this story will play well for them in Glenrothes.
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#246 Brownedov and #247 bighullabaloo
Since that's not what I said in my #225, and these are not your usual styles of writing, can you confirm that these are your posts?
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#248 oldnat
I hope people are reading these stories that show the SNP is coming up with innovative ideas that are good for Scotland.
This idea of electricity-power sharing with Norway is only possible because of our proximity to their country - but as usual there are people out there who are intent on seeing that Scots don't benefit from such a lucky accident.
Then there's Salmond's plan to save Scotland £15m over three years by bulk-buying electricity.
He's also going to cut the price of public-sector gas bills, and national procurement plans have been drawn up for telecoms, computers and office equipment.
The SNP have been coming up with so many high-quality ideas for improving the overall quality of ordinary Scots that it's been hard to keep up with them! It seems like there's two or three per day!
I have a feeling the SNP's go-ahead attitude is really starting to be noticed by ordinary people who maybe don't usually pay much attention to politics.
In other words the SNP are connecting with ordinary Scots. The SNP is delivering a message people want to hear: "We are doing everything we can to put you in a better position."
No wonder you see the English blog posters gnashing their teeth about how the Scots have "free this" and "free that". The only bit I don't agree with is when they add: "and England is paying for it all."
Labour must be ripping their hair out every time they see another brilliant idea from Salmond's team.
Labour are only too painfully aware that when the SNP's ideas appear in the papers the public are saying to themselves:
"If it was possible to do this why didn't Labour do it during all those years they were in power?" And when the answer comes it's a real "forehead slapper": "Labour really don't give a damn about me or Scotland."
No wonder Labour are showing all the signs of a party in its death throes. It must be extremely uncomfortable for them when day after day they are being exposed as charlatans through the positive go-ahead attitude of this SNP government.
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#249 oldnat
I wasn't being entirely serious, but #246 was from me and your #225 did suggest that David Cairns MP might have time on this hands, so I apologise if I have caused offence but don't quite understand how I have.
#247 bighullabaloo
LOL
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#249 oldnat -
#247 is my post.
I was making the observation that some posts here look like a print-dump from a computer that's just crashed! I did notice that your #225 doesn't contain what #246 says it does.
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#248 oldnat
Yes, an excellent way for NuLab to dig a fresh hole for themselves to crawl into.
The Sunday Herald's Iain Macwhirter has a cheery piece in If Brown loses on home turf, he risks losing everything. There's the delightful quote: "Gordon Brown was a vote-loser. Now, after Glasgow East ... he is the electoral equivalent of toxic waste."
From London, there are a couple of good pieces in the Observer:
That's all for tonight, I think - blanket bay beckons.
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#249 oldnat &
#252 bighullabaloo
Am I just tired or are we living in parallel universes? The #225 I can see specifically mentioned David Cairns in conjunction with blogwatching and my #246 simply wondered whether he could be our new troll. I'll look in again around lunchtime.
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#254 Brownedov
The confusion seems to be coming from the fact that your #246 reads:
"#225 oldnat wrote:"
But what immediately followed that wasn't something oldnat wrote in his #225.
What followed that was you speculating on the identity of the real derekbarker.
In his #249 Oldnat is wondering why you appear to be saying in your #246 that he speculated on the identity of the real derekbarker when he didn't.
So then he started to doubt we really wrote our #246 and #247.
At least, that's how it looks in the universe I'm living in!
It still leaves open the question of which universe derekbarker is living in.
I suspect that could be parallel. Or possibly some sort of wormhole. Data can get garbled like that when you are traversing a wormhole.
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#249 oldnat &
#252 & 255 bighullabaloo
OK. Mea culpa. It was me that was careless or tired in my #246
I didn't mean
but
I was not quoting oldnat but merely responding and simply forgot to zap the " wrote:" from the pasted opening line.
The McCain love-in has finished, so I really am off to bed now. Goodnight all.
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This one is so easy. The body should have been moved to the morgue as son as possible. The family could have seen their deceased relative in the chaple of rest (if we are allowed to still call it that).
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#257, smiddy3006
Cadavers are routinely left in wards for several hours, e.g. when the patient dies early in their night's sleep.
It is silly to pretend that death is not the eventual outcome for a sizeable minority of hospital patients (that is, the outcome of their hospital stay - Big D will be the eventual outcome for all of us, and I don't mean that the peanuts are something akin to Soylent Green).
The hospital staff did NOTHING wrong, and the publicity sought by someone not even a patient smacks of preparation for a legal claim for compensation for "emotional distress."
The suggestion that as soon as a patient dies, the individual becomes an inconvenience and a nuisance to be 'disposed of' as swiftly as possible is a far greater offence.
The NHS of which we are (hopefully) all still proud is one which accords dignity not only up to the point of decease but also thereafter.
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Glad to see that we've laid media bias to rest.
Just a couple of things to be going on with, Henry McLeish as candidate in Glenrothes? Ah yes, but for which party? Henry was recently chair of the consulation on penal reform and appears to have the ear of Kenny MacAskill and presumably Alex Salmond.
Which begs the question - how many other members of the Labour Party in dicey seats might, in the name of self-preservation, be considering a change of allegiance?
Next up - the Conservative candidate in Renfrewshire East is Richard Cook and has been since before the last GE, not Jackson Carlaw who is an MSP on the Renfrewshire list.
Interestingly, Carlaw reduced Kenneth MacIntosh's majority to just over 800 votes making Renfrewshire East the only Labour/Tory marginal in Scotland. A 1 per cent swing would see Richard Cook take the seat. Moreover, Scotland has a habit of voting out Scottish Secretaries of both parties at the GE. This cabinet post might be something of a poisoned chalice for Jim Murphy - if he takes it?
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#255 bighullabaloo
You're right. Being no computer expert, I wondered whether someone had managed to do some impersonation. One of each of you is bad enough, but if we all had doppelgangers .....!
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#259 Dick
Well, at least Scotland has one seat in which the UK opinion polls are appropriate!
I suspect, however, that Murphy is desperate to get a Cabinet post, as it'll significantly increase his income, when he gets kicked out at the GE.
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My mistake , it is of course Richard Cook.
( he is the one who looks a bit like Tony Blair...)
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The last para in this Guardian article about Glenrothes is further evidence of the "tectonic" shift that Angus Robertson talks of. It may be of particular significance in East Ren.
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Mark Douglas-Home's article in the Guardian has some interesting insights into the quality of Scottish journalism (or it may simply be a "It wasn't like that in my day" moan).
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Mark Douglas-Home's article in the Guardian has some interesting insights into the quality of Scottish journalism (or it may simply be a "It wasn't like that in my day" moan).
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#259 Dick-Whittington &
PS to my #219 & 226
Thanks very much for the info on Renfrewshire East. Not only is it the only Labour/Tory marginal in Scotland but it is also the only Westminster seat with identical boundaries to a Holyrood seat: Eastwood. That makes it simple to extrapolate on the 2007 results by applying the YouGov changes in SP voting intentions.
If no other factors change, the positions would look more like:
Party, 2007, 2008
NuLab, 35.76%, 30.00%
Tory, 33.64%, 28.43%
SNP, 18.91%, 27.28%
LibDem, 8.55%, 7.98%
Ind, 3.15%, 6.31%
So, from a clear 3rd place in 2007, the SNP would be running neck and neck with the Tories for silver medal position, but NuLab would still hold the seat with a Majority slashed from 6,657 to 662.
I don't suggest it will happen quite that way, but it does show quite clearly that Murphy or his like could well slither back into Westmidden with LESS than a third of the votes.
That's why I think there should be a primary common goal of delousing Scotland of the 41 NuLab lice before normal political service is resumed between the remaining parties.
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#261 oldnat
LOL but true on both counts.
Sorry to you & bighullabaloo for emulating the other Labour G Brown in becoming tired & emotional last night. The stress of watching the Obama and McCain love-ins with the priest whose name I've already forgotten must have been getting to me.
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#263 oldnat
Yes, that's the 1st article I refer to in my #253. It's actually from the Observer, who seem now to be a Grauniad subsidiary.
#265 oldnat
That's also in the Observer, but I didn't spot it last night. I'd be most interested in bighullabaloo's and brigadierjohn's takes on it.
It does strike me as a little odd, to say the least, that "at a time when Scottish politics has seldom been more interesting", he makes no mention at all of any unionist bias seen by some in most of the printed media as a possible factor in the decline.
Having glanced At most of the other press sites last night, I just took a look at the Sunday Mail and found a couple of interesting snippets there.
Mark Aitken's Labour rocked by double snub by former First Minister's seems to confirm your view re McLeish in your #146. It also has a priceless quote from a Senior Labour figure re McConnell: "If I was Jack, I wouldn't be measuring myself for a tropical outfit or ordering trays of Ferrero Rocher."
The unattributed Labour leadership candidate in 'irrelevance' warning to party is very short, but has a nice quote from Kerr: "The Scottish Tories were once a powerful force in Scottish politics but they failed to change as Scotland changed and, as a result, they became a political irrelevance." Pots and kettles or a bid for UDI?
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For the Sunday Mail to be publishing articles like this and this suggests that Labour are in meltdown. For Kerr even to suggest that "his party are in danger of becoming a 'political irrelevance'", and for the Mail, of all papers, to publish it seems astonishing.
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#269 oldnat
For once I pressed the button a minute before you. Maybe they're taking Douglas-Home's advice to heart when they look at their empty wallets.
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#179 Brigadierjohn,
Re: your last para, have a look at this, paricularly the family banner mention!
http://www.sundaymail.co.uk/news/scottish-news/2008/08/17/cyclist-chris-hoy-crowned-scotland-s-greatest-ever-olympican-after-second-gold-78057-20700119/
;-}
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#271 gt-cri
Interesting article. Makes one wonder what the NuLab planning is for Saltires at London 2012. Imagine the Chinese & Russians bleating on about human rights!
Not that I think that Jowell and her chums will be running it. But of course "Duff" Gordon might postpone the election due to the national emergency of NuLab pension funds being inadequate.
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#265 oldnat, #268 Brownedov
Not going to restart the debate on media bias, but I think it's signficant that Douglas-Home 's Observer article about "the decline of the Scottish press" fails to mention at all what is probably one of their most damaging, and yet self-inflicted, liabilities: they continue to insist on trying to prop up a formerly dominant self-serving political elite in Scotland that is becoming more outmoded and irrelevant by the day.
Large swathes of the Scottish media "old guard" nailed their colours to the mast.
Rather than change with the political times they dug their heels in and have gone to ridiculous lengths to try to prop up people who are the empitome of political liability.
No surprise that those media people now going down with the sinking ship. It's also interesting to see speculation here about how long it will be before some of their poltical cronies try to desert that sinking ship for one that's highly bouyant.
It has been pointed out here that to survive, media organisations must "give people what they want". I think the decline of the Scottish media proves they are failing to do that. The Scottish public are voting with their feet by refusing to buy or watch.
But as I often noticed during my time in that industry, for so-called communications experts, there were a peculiarly high number of individuals who were highly skilled in trying to tell the public what to think, but who were incapable of listenting to what the public were telling them.
That's almost a textbook definition of arrogance. It's visible in our media's output, it's visible in the people who produce it, and it's visible in the supporters of the out-moded political ideology the media opted to support. If the claim now is that an "ungrateful Scottish public doesn't seem to care about their plight" they only have themselves to blame!
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Here's a heart-warming Sunday Story, via the Herald's poster, (ahem)pencildick:
"pencildick, Broons back yard on 1:49pm today
Here's a wee story from the Sunday Post's political page. The PDSA charity shop in Edinburgh had an English customer in last week wanting to buy a kilt. He explained he'd been at the Tattoo where he had met First Minister Alex Salmond. Everyone else in the visitors party was wearing a kilt and Mr Salmond asked the man why he was the only one without one. He explained he was English and wasn't entitled to wear Scotland's national dress. Nonsense,Mr Salmond told him.In fact,as First Minister,he was now making the man an Honorary scot. The result was that, the next morning,the man dashed out in search of a kilt. "Never have i witnessed an Englishman so desperate to get into one" explained PDSA manager Barbara Buckley. "He told me he wished he was a Scotsman". Not only has Alex helped me raise much needed funds for the PDSA but he has turned an Englishman into a Scot. This from a man and, a party that according to unionist polititians and followers is narrow,Bigoted ,parochial,immature and above all else anti English. Says it all really
Here's a wee story from the Sunday Post's political page.
The PDSA charity shop in Edinburgh had an English customer in last week wanting to buy a kilt. He explained he'd been at the Tattoo where he had met First Minister Alex Salmond.
Everyone else in the visitors party was wearing a kilt and Mr Salmond asked the man why he was the only one without one.
He explained he was English and wasn't entitled to wear Scotland's national dress.
Nonsense,Mr Salmond told him.In fact,as First Minister,he was now making the man an Honorary scot.
The result was that, the next morning,the man dashed out in search of a kilt.
"Never have i witnessed an Englishman so desperate to get into one" explained PDSA manager Barbara Buckley.
"He told me he wished he was a Scotsman".
Not only has Alex helped me raise much needed funds for the PDSA but he has turned an Englishman into a Scot.
This from a man and, a party that according to unionist polititians and followers is narrow,Bigoted ,parochial,immature and above all else anti English.
Says it all really"
A paper worthy of our support?
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#272 Brownedov,
What makes you think the national-flag of Scotland, competing as an independent nation, won't be allowed?
A lot could, and most likely will, happen before 2012!
Maybe the Scottish Govt. will even lay-on buses- it'll save some traffic-jams at the border!
LOL
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#273 bighullabaloo
Too true. A pity that The Times are not yet a-changing.
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Oh dear, I don't know if it was the poster's name or the mild mocking of the poster against unionists but I've offended someone!
Apologies to them and I've cut-out the bad-bits:
""Here's a wee story from the Sunday Post's political page.
The PDSA charity shop in Edinburgh had an English customer in last week wanting to buy a kilt. He explained he'd been at the Tattoo where he had met First Minister Alex Salmond.
Everyone else in the visitors party was wearing a kilt and Mr Salmond asked the man why he was the only one without one.
He explained he was English and wasn't entitled to wear Scotland's national dress.
Nonsense,Mr Salmond told him.In fact,as First Minister,he was now making the man an Honorary scot.
The result was that, the next morning,the man dashed out in search of a kilt.
"Never have i witnessed an Englishman so desperate to get into one" explained PDSA manager Barbara Buckley.
"He told me he wished he was a Scotsman".
Not only has Alex helped me raise much needed funds for the PDSA but he has turned an Englishman into a Scot.""
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#275 gt-cri
Point taken re my tongue-in-cheek #272, but never underestimate the tenacity of a desperate man. If he's not gone in the autumn he'll be building some kind of a life-raft of jiggery-pokery for 2010.
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Further to my #273
For those who prefer the "soundbite" approach, here's a quick summary of my verdict on Douglas-Home's Observer article:
Douglas-Home says the Scottish press is in decline because: they've "decreased the number of beans in the can but raised the price in line with their competitors."
I believe the real reason is: the Scottish public got fed up eating beans.
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I think of all the things to blame any current Scottish administration for, the NHS is one of the last things you could use. Its a complete shambles in general.
I'd hardly blame the SNP here considering they inherited quite the mess from the Lab-Lib coalition.
Its difficult for any government though to carry out the necessary changes to the NHS since all politicians know that any perceived attack on free healthcare for all is a one way ticket to opposition land.
Bit of a shame really!
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Oh, that this were true!
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#'268 Brownedov: Douglas Hume is pretty much correct. Once, Scotland had the highest newspaper readership per head of population in the world. Most families took at least two. When Eddie Shah forced the issue of direct input (that's journalists creating the type and the pages) we though editors had wrested control from printers. Sadly, it only gave managements an appetite for more job cuts and higher profits.
The industry is now ruled by accountants, in thrall to city analysts and shareholders. If the share price drops (look at the mess Trinity Mirror and Johnstons are now in) they panic and attack costs, rather than improve quality, a concept lost on accountants. As journalist jobs vanished, quality fell, circulations followed, then advertising.
Fewer journalists filling bigger spaces (due to the lack of adverts) means standards keep falling. Reporters start grabbing easy-to-get "news" from courts, councils and PROs who know almost anything will appear, especially in local newspapers. Of course, with older, experienced - therefore expensive - journalists the first to go, there is nobody left who can train a youngsters. So the downward spiral goes on.
I'd like to agree that it was political bias that disillusioned readers. Sorry, it's just demoralised journalists, stressed and overworked, who have lost motivation in many cases.
The industry is a disaster area and it's purely and simply an issue of bad management.
The political parties have cottoned on, and now get their nonsense published, when in the past they would have been ruthlessly ridiculed.
It's getting worse.
#'271 gt_cri: I was thrilled to see Chris Hoy's family with the Saltire. I'd have been there with mine. Great Britain proudly on his chest, Scotland proudly in his heart. I wish it was me. And I see no contradiction in it. Not an issue.
Night shift: Some of you guys are here all day and up to 3am, then back again. How do you do it? And why? I mean this sincerely and kindly... think about your health.
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#281 oldnat
Yes, power_to_the_ppl beat you to posting it on the latest open NR thread. I've suggested s/he joins the fun here.
#273 & #279 bighullabaloo
& #282 brigadierjohn
Thanks for those insights. I'm not trying to rekindle a spat between the two of you.
Re Olympics, I've managed to avoid watching any of it so far in my disapproval of the IOC's stupidity in giving it to the PRC and the uncaring attitude of the sponsors, but as a Yngling sailor myself I might take a peek at tonight's highlights on Swiss TV.
Anyway, I'm off for now but will call back later.
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Ta for the links on the other blog Brownedov! I think it's safe to say that not even a bearded religious man from ages past can bring Labour back from the dead!
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#283 Brownedov: Further to your #268 and references to Sunday Mail content: The Record and Mail occasionally fire a warning shot across Labour's bow. But change in support won't come from a change of political attitude. It's the econonomics of it that matter. If the board of Trinity Mirror, dominated by chartered accountants, decides the Mail/Record could sell more copies and gather more advertising under an SNP banner it will happen tomorrow. Likewise if Vlad the Impaler had the necessary public and business support! There's a way to go yet, for Vlad and Alex.
Re the Beijing Saltires: I sincerely hope it will be waved in London 2012 - it will mean we have a medal hope. We'll certainly be free to wave it. The Chinese ban is simply a catch-all device to prevent political protest on banners.
Scotland alone as a competing nation? Why not? But even if the British Olympic Association could be persuaded to part with the "Scottish bit" of funding, it wouldn't cover a team. I think competitors, like that squash player a few years ago, might opt to compete for GB (remainder) on the basis that that's where the facilities, the money and the coaching resides. Think of the rows that would start.
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# 216 oldnat wrote:
"The trick of (successful election campagining) is to shift perceptions enough that the voters start repeating the message to each other at coffee breaks etc, as if it were there own idea."
That message seems to be: "the SNP are very supportive of Scottish businesses".
The Observer's Toby Helm quotes Chris Parr, the politically non-aligned chief executive of Tullis Russell Paper Mill (one of the Glenrothes constituency's biggest employers) as saying: "A lot of people have been very pleasantly surprised (at the way the SNP government has supported local industry). It is the talk of the Scottish dinner party circuit."
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#284 pttp
Welcome to Scotland.
Just so you know the terms of the debate here, this is a quick summary of the "reserved powers" which Westminster still controls. Anything else is the remit of the Scottish Parliament.
foreign policy and relations with Europe,
defence and national security,
common markets for UK goods and services,
protection of borders,
stability of UK's fiscal, economic and monetary system,
most aspects of transport safety and regulation,
employment,
social security
abortion,
drug policy,
broadcasting policy,
civil service,
electricity, coal, oil, gas, nuclear energy,
National Lottery,
constitution
The full detail of reserved powers is contained in Schedule 5 of the Scotland Act 1988 this page and the next
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A chosen one : A chef so some: the memory of the red breasted one,will take the kingdom as his son...............
To far for a dov to fly,an early start will catch the tied..........
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I don't think that Mark Douglas-Home is entirely on the money in his article. He doesn't grasp that some Scots may not 'hunger' for Scotland and Scottishness in their media, preferring a broader perspective. Similarly his reference to the 'dark days of Thatcher' means that he couldn't care less about a fair chunk of the Scottish broadsheet's potential readership, Conservative-voting Scots.
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#285 brigadierjohn
Thanks for the analysis. I take the point but am still slightly surprised that the media don't seem to. London gazing, perhaps?
Re Saltires, I think gt-cri is almost certainly jumping the gun, even assuming the 2010 referendum goes for independence, as it's not going ro happen overnight.
In any event it will be interesting to see how Cameron deals with it and whether he can come up with any kind of Blairite "third way".
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#284 power_to_the_ppl
You just have to read the link in oldnat's #238 to realise that hope springs eternal in the NuLab breast. OTOH I'm pretty confident you're right and we're witnessing the death throes of the NuLab parasite that's in danger of also killing off off it's host - the old Labour Party.
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re: 287
Evenin' oldnat, and ta for the info, I do find politics from 'way up in Caledonia' (as Van Morrison would say) rather bewildering at times, as I'm sure you know! I've had a look at that nugget of the Scotland Act, and I shall return for some political verbiage once I have had my fill of Sunday roast.
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#289 Anaxim
I accept your point (from previous threads) that not all Scots start from a position of "identity politics". You would accept that many do.
As to the "Conservative-voting Scots", I'm not sure that one can categorise them as simply as I think you may be doing (note how careful I'm being not to accuse you of a particular stance!)
I suspect that there are 2 main strands within that group of voters - the 1980's Thatcherites, and the descendants of the 1950's Scottish Unionists.
The author of the Wikipedia piece on the Scottish Unionists suggests that one of the reasons that they attained 50.1% of the popular vote in 1955(?) was that they represented a distinctive Scottish voice against Westminster centralism in the post war era. While I'm not sure that I totally buy into that, it does chime with my memories of Bob Boothby's supporters in Aberdeenshire.
It may be that Annabel represents that Scottish Unionist strand.
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There is to be a wake following John MacDougall's funeral tomorrow according to the Daily Telegraph
Since I liked the man, I can't think of anything less appropriate than the people who stole his party, trying to decide on the manner of their own political funeral.
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#290 Brownedove
T'was more in hope than belief! My cup runneth over, as I'm in Saudi Arabia, with two more days until I get on the plane home.
This blog and the various news websites are all I have to maintain the connection with my homeland!
Forgive me if I'm a tad over exuberant!
gt-cri ;-0
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Brownedov, Oldnat, political animal's, with no (REPEAT) no diligence! whatsoever.
Can I point out too the paper boy's,that they are in breach,of copyright law.
Look it up?
The river's of red blood speech,has not a patch on you.;. Louddov,oops; brownedov
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Courtesy of threnodio on the NR blog, The Torygraph is carrying some cheery news in its: Labour resigned to defeat in Glenrothes
Not very different to the McWhirter stuff but nice to see the Westmidden village starting to get the message.
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#294 oldnat
LOL and in it's way sad but true. Sorry to repeat the link in my #297. Refreshing seems to come in fits and starts just now.
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#295 gt-cri
Having worked quite a bit in Saudi in the '80s, you have my deepest sympathies, but I trust your wallet will aid a speedy recovery on departure.
George Mikes' remark re South America could also apply to Saudi: "The land of the future and always will be."
Is Riyadh still "the resort in the middle of the world's largest beach", as we used to call it?
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re: 291 and 238
Aye, the Joan Smith article is wishful thinking alright, but I wouldn't say she was as deluded as Nu-Labour itself, at least she can see the obvious:
Lots of erstwhile Labour supporters no longer know what the party stands for, other than a vague aspiration to be a bit nicer than the Tories; and even that modest ambition has been hobbled, in practice, by anxieties about what it might cost, and fear of upsetting the public service unions.
(She 'forgets' of course to mention financial/administrative/PR-related/IT-related etc. incompetence/borderline maliciousness, but, well, she would).
re: 296
Beg pardon?
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#300 pttp
derekbarker is our resident troll - trip tap, trip, trap.
Leave him under the bridge.
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#299 - Brownedov
Puts me in mind of a trip there when two other guy were clearly first timers. Stepping out of the plane, one turned to the other and said 'I'm getting outta here before the cement arrives' (and I cleaned that up, mods).
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#232 Brownedov -
According to the only full set of bookmaker's odds I've seen so far, the true % chance of various parties winning the Glenrothes by-election are (bookmaker's offered odds in brackets):
SNP 73% (2/9)
LABOUR 24% (11/4)
LIB-DEM 2% (40/1)
CON 1% (66/1)
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#300 pttp
This, I think, may be true of some New Labour supporters in England - if I read the posts on Nick Robinson's blog correctly.While I generalise, I think it's not so much that Scots loathe the "nasty Tories", but that we loathed Thatcher, her children (political and otherwise!), and all her works. I don't remember seeing on any Scottish blog the demands for a "strong leader", that I regularly see south of the border.
Our home-grown variety tends to be (what the English would call) "lower middle-class" - as our class structure is flatter than yours. It tends to be defensive of the status quo (of course) but pragmatic. A little patronising perhaps, but seldom hectoring.
"Auntie" Annabel Goldie is thought of rather affectionately - certainly my Modern Studies (Politics in England, I think) students (virtually all SNP or Labour) visiting the Scottish Parliament found her far and away the most pleasant of the MSPs they met.
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Speaking of hot sandy places (nope, not Gordy's post-Southwold bum) I went to Abu Dhabi once. My strongest memory of that place apart from the heat is of some girl working in one of the airport shops who kept laughing at me. I dunno why, I was wearing a straw hat so that might've been it. I didn't have any toilet paper stuck to my shoe or anything!
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#303 bighullaballoo
You are a Scottish Nationalist, and you understand bookie's odds.
You are Alec Salmond, and I claim my prize! (courtesy of the Sunday Post of old).
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#302 threnodio
Yes, we always used to say: "It'll be nice when it's finished."
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#303 bighullabaloo
That looks about fair to me allowing for a reasonable profit, but they should shorten dramatically if NuLab don't call the election in summertime.
Turnout will start to plummet after the clocks change, even if they wait until December for the new register, and we know what a low turnout will do, I think.
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re: 303
Well they're the bookies and they know best, but I wouldn't have said Labour's chances were even that high. Even at Crewe and Nantwich when things were bad, as opposed to really bad now, they couldn't win even with harping on the Dunwoody name (admittedly it was a terrible campaign and so on, but the name must have carried weight with some of the electorate). Like Dunwoody Sr., John MacDougall seems to have been v. popular and that's just made things worse for them: it just makes him harder to replace, where if he'd been unpopular or not really thought of at all then I'd have thought the electorate would've been more willing to give Labour another chance, that is if Labour could find a candidate with enough character/conviction/lying ability to push a 'change' message. But all that's by the by, things've got a lot worse so they've no chance of winning. I'd have guessed at around an 85 percent chance of an SNP victory. (But then I'm not Scottish so I dunno.)
re: 304
I don't think I've ever seen any mention of Annabel Goldie in the English press, ever. But from the good old t'internet she certainly seems to be popular. She looks benign and matronly, like she ought to be bringing whisky in on a tray.
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Brigadier
At least a Welsh Tory shares your feelings.
:-)
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#308 Brownedov
Glenrothes is a more stable community than Glasgow East, so probably less affected by changes in the electoral roll.
Reminds me of canvassing in deepest Ayrshire in the '80s. Having only Doric or "educated Scots" voices, I was allocated the "Tory" area. At one house, the lady said she was voting Tory and when I asked about her husband, she told me had died 10 years before. I didn't like to tell her that he was still on the roll and had probably been voting Labour all that time.
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#306 oldnat
Sorry, oldnat, having met Salmond in person I have actually been seen in the same room at the same time by several credible witnesses.
I do like to keep an eye out for the first set of "opening" odds.
Of course they'll change in response to political events and the amount of money people wager.
But the inital book reflects their opinion of what will happen based on a detailed study of the current political scene by an expert.
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#309 pttp
I hadn't thought of it that way, but that was the situation in Glasgow East and it didn't work there.It may be that, in Scotland, the feeling of "betrayal" by New Labour runs so deep that no tactic will work.
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#311 oldnat
LOL - he probably still does
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#309 pttp
Annabel would probably offer you a dram. The downside is that she'd decide when you'd had enough!
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Meanwhile, The Herald has news of the threadbare three at Leadership hopefuls at hustings. Kerr's "We did not go into the Labour party to be in opposition, but to be in government" suggests he's still throwing his toys out of the pram, Jamieson's backing a local government strike sounds a sure-fire winner and Gray wants price-fixing on bread and milk.
Could the NuLab plan be to seize back power while the entire SNP are helpless with laughter?
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#313 - oldnat
The sense of betrayal is not limited to Scotland. Many of my connections in the north of England, who used to be diehard Labour feel the same way. Down south, the Tory heartlands are being reborn. There were many southerners who were willing not only to give Labour a chance but to give them long enough to make a significant difference. These folk are completely disillusioned and 'going home' politically speaking, in their droves. Above all, I sense that the English feel betrayed by the whole devolution process and the growing perception that they - the English - are the second class citizens. This is why, paradoxically, the SNP is as popular south of the border as it seems to be in Scotland, especially as they seem to be doing many of the things that are needed in England.
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re: 313
It may be that, in Scotland, the feeling of "betrayal" by New Labour runs so deep that no tactic will work.
Wouldn't be surprised. As for Glasgow East, I don't think Margaret Curran had enough charisma to be able to lie or run as the change candidate. She looks and sounds like a demented JK Rowling, look at her losing speech here.
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Another winning wheeze from NuLab health minister Ivan Lewis, in tomorrow's Herald: Tax the rich to help Labour’s core voters, Brown is told. Stealing a LibDem idea this time for a 50% top rate. Mightn't be such a bad idea if we didn't know they would throw it away.
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re: 315
Lol I bet she does have a (very) mean streak. Still, as long as it's Edradour that she's offering, I could put up with it!
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#317 threnodio
Your comments seem to be borne out by the latest Sunday Times YouGov poll I still don't understand why they continue to do GB wide polling as if we had a single political system anymore.
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re: my 318
'to be able to lie' should be 'to be able to lie well.
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#316 Brownedov
When I was young (1000 years ago) bread and milk was called "saps". seems still appropriate somehow.
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"Glenrothes is more a stable community"
What does he mean by that statement?Is he (oldnat) alluding to the foreign immigrants in the East end of Glasgow or is he(Oldnat) confirming an East end exodus,since the return of an SNP MP.
Maybe,the truth is in the name, "OLDNAT" an old nationalist,no doubt he's a catharsis, spurting out the racist literature, once associated with the SNP.
So what is the answer corpora(oldnat)l
The troll poll are awaiting../..[ ]
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#318 pttp
Thanks for the reminder. I'd forgotten that glorious statement of principle -
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Apologies if someone has already posted the link, but if so I couldn't spot it above. The Sunday Times YouGov poll story is well worth a look at Good news: Labour has hit rock bottom and the YouGov link in it.
It shouldn't really have an impact on Scotland unless it encourages "Duff" Gordon to postpone the by-election awhile. I tend to agree with the 1st comment on the article that whether it's really rock bottom will depend on the economy.
NB: The full YouGov PDF isn't yet publicly available.
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Re the Sunday Times YouGov poll
The Scottish data is from only 164 individuals and their weighting seems doubtful, given the BNP vote they estimate.
However, for what it's worth they suggest
SNP 34% :Lab 26% :Con 19% :LD 14% :BNP 3% :Green 2% :UKIP 1% :Other (Soc?) 1%
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#321 oldnat
Beat me again, but I'm surprised none of us noticed it earlier in the day.
#323 oldnat
LOL
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#326 Brownedov
Yougov pdf available as per my #321. It's very difficult to keep up a conversation due to the slowness of the mods - but I do appreciate that they need to check out the links we provide before passing them.
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Re my #327
I suspect that YouGov are breaking their "others" according to some English based formula. It seems more sensible to suggest that the Socialist vote is around 4%, than the BNP has that level of support.
Again polling at UK level is inappropriate in today's circumstances.
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Finally got round to reading this from the Guardian 4th place in England Not a brilliant article, but interestingly an article specifically focussing on identifiably English politics.
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Here is one for the liberals.
A YouGov poll has confirmed that over 50% of the uk public want the EU treaty scrapped.
Have the Irish ditched their liberal views to.
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#327 & #330 oldnat
I agree the Scottish sample is too small to be meaningful and the "other" fishy. It's
probably enough (together with the Welsh data) to give a misleading picture for England, too. With the SNP YouGov poll only a week old, I don't think it's worth trying to use that data for Scotland.
#329 oldnat
"Yougov pdf available as per my #321"
Not quite. Call me picky, but it's actually the first few pages of the PDF converted to HTML by the Sunday Times. In all probability, the full, official, YouGov PDF including the weightings will be available in the morning on the YouGov website. I'm not in any way suggesting The Times would massage the figures, but I've been involved in converting too many documents from one format to another to believe that more than the "headline" figures will have been double-checked. They're probably 100% correct but I'll still wait for the figures from YouGov direct.
I now note that you go straight to the PDF coversion in your post whereas my #326 goes to the article which has two separate links to the poll drtails.
I need an early night after this morning's US bunfight and can't find anything new on the media websites, so will wish you all adieu.
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I see that that Grey wants a right wing alliance against the SNP! this in the Scotsman
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#331 oldnat
More an NR matter than a BT one, I think but many will certainly be nervous at the prospect of the BNP taking their first Westmidden seat.
Not enough to keep me chatting, even though the night mods seem to be working quickly. G'night
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Polling, even YouGov polling is usually pretty accurate for the 2 leading parties, accepting the built in error margin of plus or minus 3 per cent. This means that the SNP could be sitting as high as 37 per cent or as low as 31 per cent. with Labour as high as 29 per cent or as low as 23 per cent (admittedly a little unlikely).
However, for any other parties polling becomes increasingly inaccurate due to voting clusters in particular areas. It has long been accepted that polling seriously underestimates the Conservative vote in Scotland and similarly the Lib-Dem vote throughout the UK. Polling for the minor parties is even worse, it would be fair to say that the BNP is never going to poll 3 per cent in Scotland, although on a UK-wide poll, the BNP clearly has increasing support in English working class constituencies with a high migrant population.
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The Scottish government to take action on the rising costs of energy.
After all their broken commitments,here's another,thay will buy"YES" buy electricity from abroad and cut all existing contracts with Scottish firms
Honest John S. In a real mess.,.;;;;
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#336 Dick
The tiny number polled in scotland must have a huge margin of error, but since the results for the main parties approximate to the Scottish YouGov poll, they're obviously in the "ballpark". The minor party figures are obvious nonsense.
You raise an interesting point about the historic underestimate of the Tory vote. It has been suggested that this happened because people were "too embarrassed" to admit to voting Tory when they were hugely resented.
I'm not sure that is still the case in Scotland if people think "Goldie" rather than "Cameron" when they're asked the question.
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For those who are interested, and using Windoze, I recommend the use of a wee free program called Autohotkey with which you can program any key or combination to output whatever you like. For example, I have set my F6 key to give me a blank link, my F11 key to output a salutation:
Salaam/Shalom/Shanthi/Dorood/Peace
ed
Autohotkey only works in Windoze, so if you fancy similar tricks in ubuntu/linux, you'll have to do it through metacity via the configuration editor...
Information here
Have fun!
Slainte
ed
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#299 Brownedov
Good morning all,
Alas, my wallet is merely tickled by the filling, these days! Saudi has changed and so have the companies working there- it still has the downside, not too much upside anymore!
As a small piece of "oil-field trash", I tend to tick my list of "been there, not going back"!
Interesting to hear the many Indians working here speaking with pride of the rapidly-growing, strong Indian economy. Such a sense of national-pride in people- tut, tut!! Perhaps the unionists among us would advocate the re-integration of India and Pakistan?
Ok, I jest so please no berating from more serious posters! Appreciate your sympathy and look forward to rejoining once safely returned to the bothy!
As-Salaam-Alaikum,
gt-cri
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PS to my #333
As anticipated last night the full details in PDF of the YouGov Sunday Times poll are now available from YouGov's Political Archives. Look for "08/18/2008 - Voting Intentions and Topical Issues [Sunday Times]" to download the Summary PDF. Near the start of the Summary PDF, there is a clickable link for the full 10 page details, including the weighting.
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#336 Dick-Whittington
#338 oldnat
No BNP or UKIP candidates stood for Holyrood in 2007. In 2005, UKIP got 8,859 votes and the BNP 1,591, making 10,450 between them. This is slightly less than 0.45% of the votes cast in Scotland.
I think your points are well made as it is very hard to believe that 6 out of the 156 Scottish voters after weighting plan or would like the opportunity to vote BNP or UKIP. If it's true, my guess would be that they will mainly vote Tory or not at all resulting in the understatements of Tory votes we read of.
The only alternative theory I can offer is that we must remember that YouGov participation is self-registering if not self-selecting. It is therefore possible that some BNP and/or UKIP supporters have falsely registered Scottish addresses on YouGov, but the proven accuracy of past YouGov polls makes this unlikely.
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#340 gt-cri
Sorry to hear the rewards are no longer there. There never was much of an upside otherwise, but I've never been involved on the oil side where there used to be rumours of better conditions for the US expats.
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I think Brian may feel that his blog "seemed like a good idea at the time." If it was designed to promote constructive debate on relevant political issues it has failed miserably. I believe he is fed up with it and may soon abandon it.
This current effort lost the thread days ago and is now an inconsequential free-for-all. Albeit some interesting people take part, I don't believe we, collectively, have furthered the cause of any party or idea, far less the cause of humanity.
What does fascinate me, however, is the constant reference to other sites. (Thanks for the Welsh Tory, oldnat - how on earth did you come across that?). It seems to be a forum through which regulars draw each other's attention to external media, especially when it confirms personal prejudices. I feel a bit like a virgin with his first girlfriend, when everyone else seems to know "what to do."
I certainly don't wish to gossip with like-minded folk, nor do I wish to intrude on any group's cosy domain. (Great fun as it is to wind up the ultra self-important).
Will blogs go the way of the tape recorder and Beta video? Anonimity is a double-edged sword here. Many a good idea could be floated by shy and retiring types like me, but it does give a platform to... let's say, the pub loudmouth.
Any ideas for a better blog? (Yes, yes - I know I should clear off and leave you alone).
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#344 Brigadier
It's the "silly season".
As to the Welsh Tory site, I keep an eye on Andrew Rawnsley's Politics Home website, which has automatically refreshed links to political websites on a rolling banner at the top of the page.
Personally I blog because I've already bored my wife and friends, so I get to pontificate here without having to buy anyone a drink!
On any blog, I simply scroll past any postings from people who bore me (as others will with my postings), but I've learnt a huge amount here and from people on blogs where I simply read without commenting.
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#344
Well said and eloquently put as usual. If the blog ceased I would miss your contributions.
Re corpses: Some of us have to deal with the mortal remains of others on a daily basis as part of our professional lives which naturally reminds us of our own mortality, and often, how tenuous life can be. It seems that the general public in the UK can no longer cope with this concept. Hide death away; it does not exist.
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#345 oldnat
LOL but totally agree with your last 2 paras.
I also agree with your 1st para but am not so sure who it is being "silly".
Off out now but may catch up with you tonight.
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#344 brigadierjohn,
I think the comments posted dealt with the blog PDQ and naturally evolved into the subjects dealt with in the news. The blog's now 4 days old and couldn't possibly be discussed for so long!
I for one feel priviliged to be part of the discussion, albeit in a minor way. The links add depth and further debate. Your comment of the "pub loudmouth" doesn't really hit the mark; we all have a say because no-one can drown anyone else out.
The other advantage is it takes longer to type a comment and therefore more consideration is contained in the message (most of the time)!
A free-for-all is inconsequential? Only if we discuss the inconsequences!
The regulars know how to raise and discuss the issues- long may they continue!
(I include you in that number)
Gotta go, plane to catch!
gt-cri
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#344 brigadierjohn
I think the blog would be improved dramatically if you stopped insisting on referring to other bloggers in a very disrespectful and condescending way (of which your #344 is just the latest in a long line of examples), expecting people to buy into your mistaken belief that you're just a charming rascal who likes to "wind people up". I've got some bad news for you: it's not charming, it's not funny, and it's one of the major reasons why the blog has ceased to be enjoyable.
Everyone here can give or take a joke, but your inability to resist throwing out needless insults and negativity ("pub loudmouth", "ultra self-important" etc) directly lowers the quality and tone of the debate - "great fun" of a very selfish kind for one person's benefit only. If you think the quality of the blog needs improving try starting by realising that your childish insults are doing a great deal to spoil it.
So, go ahead and respond now with your usual: "Red rag to a bull! Works every time!" drivel. But when you do, think about the fact that others reading it don't see you as some sort of arch-wit. They see you as the one that thinks he's the hilarious king of "wind up" merchants - an annoying balloon. There's one in every office and, apparently, one in every blog.
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I hate to dredge up an old argument but have been absent from the blog for a day or two. Accordingly you may wish to skip the following if the idea of debating "media bias" brings you out in a rash.
PS Whoops! Just saw the last few posts! I do hope you don't take this the wrong way bighullabaloo - I'm honestly not meaning to be unfriendly with the following. For the avoidance of doubt constructive criticism is the sole intention.
Re bighullabaloo's #154, #155, #159 and #160:
Apologies for the lethargic tortoise-like pace of debate - I had a busy weekend and didn't get a chance to look again at the blog until today.
I fear the moment has passed (along with about 200 posts - you guys were busy this weekend!), but bigH, nevertheless I'd like to make a few points about our brief exchange. Note that I really don't want to re-open the debate, such as it was.
1. As you rightly say in your #155, we (largely) agree! I think the only divergence of opinion is that I said (#151): "Of course there is a human element at play and so bias inevitably creeps in, as the BBC freely acknowledges."
In contrast you said (#155): "However I cannot agree with you that the BBC freely acknowledges claims of such localised bias.
If you want to see what happens to such claims read my #88 above."
It's obviously a little difficult to be certain about what you said in #88 (shades of Fermat's last theorem!), but I can at least give some reasons for my opinion. They come in the form of the following independent reports into BBC impartiality:
a) Safeguarding impartiality in the 21st century (June 2007)
In particular pages 54-60 dealing with the BBC's coverage of the Make Poverty History and Live 8 campaigns. There are several references to specific instances where the BBC failed to follow it's Editorial Policy with regards to impartiality.
As an aside it also contains a terrific quote from one senior BBC executive that: "impartiality in this Africa season was ‘as safe as a blood bank in the hands of Dracula’".
b) Report of the independent panel for the BBC Trust on impartiality of BBC business coverage (April 2007)
It concludes that although the BBC does not have a systematic bias against business, at times the BBC can be "unconsciously partial and unbalanced in its business coverage". It further states that the BBC has a "preoccupation with taking the consumer perspective". Another conclusion is that: "Some presenters, especially on Five Live, expressed their personal views and preferences about particular commercial products." And again: "We found examples of partiality in some interviews with business leaders on mainstream output. Some were sycophantic in tone, others too hostile and aggressive."
c) Impartiality of the BBC’s Coverage of the Israeli-
Palestinian Conflict (April 2006)
A few quotes from the conclusions:
"Our assessment is that, apart from individual lapses, there was little to suggest deliberate or
systematic bias."
"In short, we found that BBC output does not consistently give a full and fair account of the
conflict. In some ways the picture is incomplete and, in that sense, misleading."
The BBC has published responses to each of these reports in which they acknowledge the issues raised (including the instances of "localised" bias) and outline their strategies for addressing them. To my mind this shows the BBC to be an institution that "freely acknowledges" that bias creeps in to their reporting.
Of course there will nonetheless be occasions where a claim of bias is made that is not acknowledged, as seems to be the case with your #88 (I assume you've re-checked the house rules and you didn't write something that fell foul of them?).
In the interests of balance, my internet search also threw up several websites with rather different opinions on BBC impartiality!
2. Perhaps I didn't make my intentions clear enough in #151. For that I'm happy to apologise! My "job" as a poster is to make myself clear after all!
I was really just trying to expand on northhighlander's comment that I had perceived you to misunderstand slightly in your PS of #142. My intention was simply to put forward my opinion (as opposed to an argument against yours).
3. In my #151 I didn't actually accuse you of claiming that the BBC has a "systematic policy of favouring one political party or another" (as you claim in #154). Ignoratio elenchi indeed (thanks oldnat!), or was this rather a red herring (i.e. a deliberate attempt to divert the argument)? In fairness it worked, as I did nibble the bait in my #157! D'oh! I must watch out for that in future!
In fact, in my #151 I simply stated that there is a difference between what we are calling "localised" bias and systematic bias. Nowhere did I claim you said otherwise. Again I think we agree on that point don't we?
4. The general tone of your #154, #159 and #160 disappointed me. Elements of them read more like a teenage tantrum than the reasoned argument of someone old enough to have gained 30 years of journalistic experience. Given the usual quality of your ideas and expression I think you let yourself down on this occasion.
Ditto for your hectoring of northhighlander in #142, #144 and #145. Far from being a "loser" (as you put it) for not replying to you within 15 minutes, perhaps northhighlander had something better to do an a Friday night?
5. Following on from that last point, look again at my #157. Despite your provocations in #154 I chose my words carefully ("presume", "give the impression") - it's deliberately neutral language that passes some of the burden of misunderstanding onto my own shoulders (but only some of it mind - see my point 2 above!). It was an olive branch that you gleefully grabbed and snapped in your #160!
Yes, this is a debate and some rough and tumble is to be encouraged, but I don't think it serves much purpose to get too vituperative in our use of language! This blog is dominated by few enough as it is (no offence to any of them by the way, life and soul of the party, salt of the Earth, etc.!). I'm sure we'd all agree that we wouldn't want slanging matches to discourage the less frequent visitors from joining in.
Anyway, apologies for blethering on for so long, and notwithstanding all the above I look forward to your next post. I wonder when Brian is back from his latest holiday to move things on... ;o)
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Re: #344 brigadierjohn
Some fair points, some a little harsh! Let's join up some dots though. On previous threads the idea of a guest blogger was mentioned. The floor is yours brigadierjohn!
Can you put together an interesting short article (under 500 words let's say) on some aspect of Scottish politics for our edification? Let's see how invigorating the ensuing discussion gets! Added bonus is that you will no doubt pitch in periodically to keep things on topic, unlike certain other brace-clad bloggers ;o)
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#351 forfar-loon
Like the idea - it would keep things going till Glenrothes!
:)
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forfar-loon
#350 I don't know if you've made any decent points or not because, quite frankly, the post is so long I can't be bothered to read it! I think there's perhaps a lesson there for all of us.
#351 "brace-clad bloggers" I suppose I was really asking too much to expect people to show just a little respect by not insulting other bloggers.
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#351 - forfar-loon
One thing I do agree with you about is your suggestion that brigadierjohn post his own article on some aspect of Scottish politics. It will be interesting to see what comes of it. If you're not happy about the quality of what's on offer then it can be very instructive to see if you can come up with something better yourself.
One good thing that might result is a politics version of BBC Sport's 606 forum facility - where members of the public write and post their own articles about sport and other people comment on them.
Then the poltical topics discussed would be entirely down to the public, and if some of the responses were "off topic" you'd be able to jump in and help people get back on topic.
Why not? Isn't this the whole point of free speech?
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Thanks for the responses - all of them. I made it three "for" two "neutral" and one "against." I'm happy to let others judge the validity of each.
#351 forfar-loon: I really don't think acceptance of your generous invitation would endear me to many people. My style, if such it be, can be interpreted as provocative or antagonistic. I don't need the grief. Anyway, I'd want paid!
I once interviewed Enoch Powell. I quoted part of his speech back to him from notes. He said: "Young man, if everyone quoted me so accurately my life would be so much simpler. I will write to your editor." And he did!
But when I asked him: What did you mean... "
He said: "Laddie, I said what I said. You kow what I said. You must make of it what you will."
Good advice for bloggers.
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#355: Fair enough brigadier. How about some of you others then? oldnat? bighullabaloo? brownedov? thomas_porter? (whatever happened to him?)
#354: good idea bighullabaloo, that would definitely be a step forward
#353: oh dear, I thought it got a bit long-winded myself! Just didn't want to be one of those "tim`rous beasties" that disappears when a disagreement crops up. Ach weel, I'm glad now that I put a health warning at the top for everyone to skip it ;o)
Not sure the wearing of braces can be construed as an insult though can it? Remember such luminaries as our very own Brian, erm, Gordon Gekko, err....
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#356 forfar-loon
One thing I haven't criticised Brian Taylor for is his ability to write articles that provoke debate.
The reason why I haven't is best summed up by Theodore Roosevelt: "It's not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or when the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood..."
So whilst I might vehemently criticise the message, I'm not at all interested in shooting the messenger.
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#356 forfar-loon: You have a wonderful self-deprecating style by which you can almost apologetically "stick the knife in" while retaining the butter, unmelted, in your mouth. I could be bothered to read your #350. Every nail hit on the head. Excellent.
As a charmless, unfunny, annoying balloon, a purveyor of drivel, I'd be thrilled to be deemed a mere wearer of braces.
Meanwhile, you must be careful about "not insulting other bloggers" -- leave it to the experts.
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It seems remarkable to me that certain journalists appear to see conspiracies everywhere.
The Evening Standard makes a consultation on English Local Elections into a dastardly plot.
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#358 Such are the words of the brave man who wants to criticise others but is too frightened to put his own head above the parapet.
Don't complain about the quality of the blog if you are going to insist on dragging it into the gutter. Pathetic.
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#358 it would be nice if you could starts respecting everyone else's right to take part in a blog that isn't ruined by the sort of petty name calling you indulge in.
Why don't you "put up or shut up?"
Have the courage to write your own article!
If you're going to chicken out after what you've said about the blog, then all you're doing is proving you're a windbag.
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Another message ignored. Another messenger shot.
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Returning Brian's blog, I am forced to say I am disgusted by what this entry tells us about Mr Taylor.
Ridiculing and belittling someone with mental problems, and expecting the NHS to meet what HE considers HE is owed.
I am quite sure that the other patients would have been glad to see the back of him...
...as I am now, by absenting myself PERMANENTLY from this blog.
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#362 Unless you're going to back up those big words in your #349 with action, then people are going to thinki it's all coming from a blowhard.
Let's see you write a better article!
Everybody is waiting to see whether there's any substance backing up the big talk.
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From a Spectator blog (just to prove that paranoia is just as stong north and south of the border!)
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#357: Absolutely. Good quote too. For what it's worth I think Brian does a fine job, although recent topics of the blog have not hit the usual heights in my opinion. Too much sun on his holidays no doubt.
As previously posted though, I do think he'd do an even better job if he intervened from time to time in the discussions that he provokes. That was all I meant in my #351.
#358: thanks...I think! Modesty requires me to point out that I have much to deprecate myself for ;o)
#360, #361 and #364: as Michael Winner might say, "Calm down dear!". The brigadier is controversial at times, but on balance the blog is a richer place with his interesting take on events. The more the merrier, especially if we all disagree with each other! Don't take him (or indeed any of us) too seriously!
Then again I'm the kind of person who buys a "viewspaper" precisely because it will expound different views to my own. It's good to be challenged! Same reason I married my good lady wife - she invariably disagrees with me and is almost always right to do so! What an insufferable old fool I would become if she always agreed with the nonsense I spout! Well, that was one of the reasons anyway ;o)
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Come on, all you innocent bystanders.... tell him. Even if it were my fondest wish to do so, I have no mandate from the mods, from Brian, or from the BBC to turn their blog into my personal domain. Nor do I have the ego problems that would induce me to imagine a waiting audience for anything more than a few paragraphs of passing comment.
And what, fellow bloggers, about this barrage of personal abuse directed at me in defiance of House Rules? (I won't run to the mods, however - I prefer to see the author condemned by his own words).
If anyone sees anything in my recent output to provoke such an outpouring of rage, please say so.
What do you think? Should I adhere to my pledge, several weeks ago, and be "a good boy?" Or should I bore you all by reciprocating to cheap insults.
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#363 cousteau696
I couldn't agree more. And I'm equally sick of the blowhards around here. Life's too short to waste it bickering with people who are clearly "all talk and no action".
I met enough of them in my job to last me a life time. But wherever you go, they're still around trying to make everybody's life a misery with their pathetic: "look at me, I'm so clever winding everybody up" routine.
I learned a long time ago, and it obviously still holds true, that these sorts all have one thing in common: they like giving it out but they simply can't take it.
Good riddance!
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Big,
Don't presume to speak for "everybody", please. You're veering close to argumentum ad populumSlainte
ed
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#367
A final word for the windbag: your "fellow posters" clearly don't want you to go on boring them.
They just want you to either show a bit of backbone or button it!
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Big,
There you go again. Is that factual reporting or bias/opinion?Slainte
ed
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#369 and #371: well said Ed.
#368: can you clarify what it was that you couldn't agree more with about #363? Was it the references to Brian or the disappearing permanently from the blog? I'd be surprised at either to be honest.
#367: mildly abusive I agree, and the sort of thing I meant in my late lamented (laboriously lengthy!) #350. But I'm enjoying the vocabulary, so mods keep out! It's like being an extra in the Broons here today! Michty me!
I guess your #344 was a bit cheeky in places, and has clearly ruffled some feathers, but IMHO the correct response is not what we are being treated to.
Anyway, enough of all this. I'll repeat my earlier invitation: would oldnat, bighullabaloo or brownedov care to pose a new topic for us all? And let's give any offering a fair go! No mean-spirited sniping please!
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#372 forfar-loon
Where is YOUR suggestion for a new topic?
Seems you're awfully keen on everybody else coming up with one!
Or are you going to bottle it like you buddy?
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#372 forfar-loon
I got us on to the media in the first place!
In the meantime, there must be a collective noun for old journalists.
Agentility of old journalists?
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#373 bighullabaloo
How about a "loony left" thread, and how's this for starters?
"Duff" Gordon seems to have a new ally in George Galloway, judging by today's rant the Record: I predict a red-letter day for Labour in Fife.
Could "Gorgeous George" be doing a "Red Ken" and trying to re-ingratiate himself with the Labour Party in time to be a "player" in the bolemic left-wing party that emerges from the next general election? Respect, indeed.
I must admit he does have a point when he closes by saying "The Kingdom has a high opinion of itself, while Glasgow East spent four weeks hearing itself described as on a par with the Gaza Strip."
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#375
He certainly was accurate when he said "I could go on, believe me".
I had wondered when the first Unionist would bring South Ossetia into the discussions on Scotland's governance.
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#375 Brownedov
An excellent topic! A well-written opening article and best of all - you haven't bottled it!
#375 forfar-loon
I think the only word that seems to fit is a "moan" of old journalists!
All we got from some quarters was the decrepit whinge: "It wasn't like that in my day. it's all rubbish these days and it's getting worse!"
At least, when I had my moan about the press I had a fresh angle: "It was every bit as bad in my day and it's still as bad today!"
It's not true that journalism stinks today. has he not read anything by Iain Macwhirter or Paul Hutcheon recently?
Top men both, and they do it week in wek out, budget cuts or not.
I don't agree with the moaning minnies and negative ninnies!!
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#373 bighullabaloo
Or howabout The Supreme Leader to star in a remake of Spend, spend, spend?
That's Austin Mitchell's constructive suggestion in the Grauniad's Gordon Brown 'in last chance saloon', says Labour MP.
Somehow can't see he's right for the part, myself.
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#373: Since you didn't answer I'll repeat my question. Can you clarify your #368 - what was it that you couldn't agree more with about cousteau's #363? Was it the references to Brian or the disappearing permanently from the blog?
Since you ask for my suggestion for a new topic, how about:
1. Topical suggestion: Scottish cabinet meeting in Pitlochry. What do people make of this grand tour so far? I recall Ewan from Dumfries telling us about that meeting in a previous thread, but nothing from Inverness. Is anyone from the Pitlochry area reading this and planning to attend? Or Skye? Gimmick or PR genius on the part of the SNP? Halfway through the tour seems a good time to take stock.
2. Not so topical: do people feel Scotland would benefit from a second revising chamber? Or is an extra layer of politicians the last thing we need? Does the inherent compromising (coalition, minority government) that goes with PR render such a check redundant? If a second chamber has a place who should fill it?
A couple of suggestions off the top of my head anyway. I'm not going to have time to write more on them this evening though - her ladyship has just pulled up in the car and, crazy as it may sound, I'd rather spend the evening with her ;o)
Oh, and thanks for making me and the brigadier blog-buddies! G'night John boy!
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#374: LOL a gentility indeed! Might I dip my toes into cheeky water and suggest a polemic? Or perhaps a rabidity?
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#375 Brownedov
Read Galloway's article.
Whether you agree with him or not, one has to admit Galloway can be a breathtaking orator (and writer) as those US senators discovered to their cost.
He's a man who has clearly studied and understands the power of rhetoric and highly skilled, at times using it to devastating effect. I admire him greatly for that, and would encourage all ambitious Scots to seek to emulate him in acquiring that skill.
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bigbaloo,
The bear necessities of life will come to you.(well,maybe not)
lighten up bear head and read the offer properly.
Whoops i've did it again.
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#379 forfar-loon
Re: your suggested topics.
As they say in Hollywood: "Don't call us - we won't be calling you."
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#376 oldnat
I had thought of posting it on one of the threads actually discussing Georgia vs The Russian Federation, but my cruel streak doesn't extend that far.
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#374 oldnat: I'd settle for a bevvy!
#379: Hi, Buddy! Good suggestions. G'night.
Fresh topic: Might I suggest Care in the Community? I feel it was always an excuse to close hospitals, and simply has not worked.
Tragedies have happened, poor souls are sleeping in doorways.
It is painfully obvious that there are many people who should be locked up for the good of everyone.
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#374 oldnat
How's about a pandemonium of journalists?
On second thoughts, maybe it should be a pandemonium of politicians?
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#378 Brownedov
I think having seen the latest effort another remake of "Mamma Mia!" wouldn't be amiss.
I hear Mrs Thatcher still does a very mean (in the worst psosible sense) rendition of "Money, Money, Money" and GB is perfect for "Gimme, Gimme, Gimme".
The Labour group at Holyrood could chip in with "Our Last Summer".
The final act sees a mournful solo from GB: "Slipping through my fingers" and a tear-jerking finale of "SOS" from all.
Now that's entertainment!
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#379 forfar-loon
Your suggestion #2 re a second revising chamber is a good one.
Personally, I'd say it's an essential and, despite their undemocratic credentials, the current Lords do a half-decent job at it right now.
If the future is full independence, a small (20 max?) elected senate would be needed.
If the future is proper (con)federalism, the function could be carried out by the Scottish reps. to a part-time UK senate in session at Holyrood.
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With thanks to the blog of J Arthur McNumpty where he suggests the ideal Labour candidate for Labour in Glenrothes
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Goodnight folks. Like my buddy, forfar-loon, I have a wife demanding attention. She's calling me a silly blogger. I think.
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#390
G'night John Boy! ;-)
p.s. don't come back
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#381 bighullabaloo
I promise you I did read it first, and I certainly agree that he can be a breathtaking orator, as he was in the US senate hearings.
Admiring his skill doesn't make me admire the man, though. It was probably sensible of him to leave NuLab to the Blairites at the time he did, but just as Red Ken revived their fortunes for a long while, Galloway has the potential ability to do something similar.
..... BUT .....
Somehow, I can't see his fervently unionist sentiment being flavour of the month in Scotland anytime soon. If he was arguing for a properly federal UK, he could possibly reach the audience he wants.
However, the attitude he's now pushing might just put him back in favour with his former colleagues, but without addressing the issue of Scottish Labour vs London Labour he's ultimately bound to fail even if he puts his heart and soul into the Glenrothes campaign and helps NuLab pull off a narrow victory - not that I think he will.
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The Gnu and the Gbear, what an odd pair.
Ones a sub standard journalist (who clearly got no further than the obituary column).
The other,a doddgy bookie,who clearly can offer nothing of his own equations.
While i'am here,thats not forget baloo,brigadier and oldnat,three exceptional prattles.
I am delighted the nats have each and everyone of you lot,it surely does increase the labour prospects.
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#388 Brownedov
I dislike unicameral parliaments (and not just because the pre-Union Scottish Parliament was unicameral!)
Any sensible system has to avoid the "dictatorship of the PM" in the UK. Only the Lords protect us from the worst excesses of the system (never thought I'd be saying that).
In a Confederal UK, the Senate (or whatever) should sit in a neutral location. The obvious one is Berwick, since like Wales it has never been formally incorporated into England. The Wales and Berwick Act 1746 (20 Geo. II, c. 42) simply said that English Law would apply in both places, unless specifically excluded.
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387 bighullabaloo
LOL - maybe he and Maggie should supplement their pensions by putting it on at the fringe next year.
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Tomorrow's Guardian carries an ICM poll. It says that
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#389 oldnat
LOL - in fact the whole Can Labour ever find a candidate? is amusingly insightful. Surprised you didn't post the link yourself.
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I like to follow this blog but comment rarely. Anyway, I have some comments on the content.
Brigadier really is tiresome and mundane and it came as no surprise when he told us he was a journalist. He might be retired but he clearly still thinks like the numerous unionist journalists we need to put up with in the media. They are like dying dinosaurs. Some will see the light; see the Herald and Scotsman before the Hoyrood election.
I love Thomas Porter. I do hope we will hear from him again. He is a fresh and enthusiastic recruit to the cause. The abuse he got was over the top.
The polling analysis from Browndov is excellant. Keep it up.
I read the Galloway article. I like Galloway. But I don't believe he thinks Labour can hold Glenrothes. But would the Daily Record have paid him to say Labour couldn't win?
Freedom
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# 392 Brownedov
I was talking solely about Galloway's undoubted power as an orator.
I think Labour are very fortunate that the SNP doesn't have anyone with quite his rhetorical flair or Scotland would already be independent. Maybe there's someone out there working their way up.
Galloway's politics I obviously don't agree with. He is certainly a formidable political operator.
I met many, many politicians during my career. I spoke with GB on a very regular basis, interviewed him at his constituency office many years ago, covered his election count one year. Whatever makes for a charismatic speaker, GB didn't have it, and still doesn't.
I have met many major Scottish political players face to face: John Smith, Donald Dewar, Alex Salmond, etc, etc. Dewar I didn't find an inspiring speaker. Smith was a master of the withering sarcastic put down.
Salmond can obviously be a bit of an oratorical bruiser when he's on form during FMQs. Who could forget his eye-watering "Merry Christmas!" to the hapless Nicol Stephen?
Re: #395 Well, if they do I hope they've got the ticket machine working!!
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#394 oldnat
"Any sensible system has to avoid the "dictatorship of the PM" in the UK."
I agree 100%.
That hasn't yet happened at Holyrood only because no party has yet had an overall majority, but it's only a matter of time before one does.
It would be a big issue at the next constitutional convention which will be needed after the referendum if the "status quo" option loses.
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#398 hadrianswall
I think Thomas Porter is probably in the Royal Artillery by now, and isn't allowed to express political opinion.
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#398 hadrianswall
"But would the Daily Record have paid him to say Labour couldn't win?"
I must confess I hadn't thought of it that way - I was just so surprised to read something that well written on the Record website.
Now that you pose the question, the answer has to be: probably not.
OTOH, Respect haven't exactly taken off in the polls, so Galloway could be looking for a new home - hence my posing the question.
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#402
On 10 August 2007, Galloway confirmed he would stand in Poplar and Limehouse at the next general election, where the Labour Party has a notional majority of 3,942.
That said, he plays his cards close to his chest and displays a quite remarkable ability to reinvent himself - even for a politician!
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#396 oldnat
"Presumably the extra Tories and Labour are ex-SNP, so Glenrothes will be OK then!"
LOL, but you could well think that from reading the article, especially when it says "every part of Britain except Scotland believe Cameron would be a better prime minister than Brown".
There will probably be more details soon on ICM's Polls page, but note that the July Guardian poll on that page, only splits "Britain" between North, Midlands and South, so don't expect anything to add to the few crumbs we can find in the Sunday Times YouGov poll.
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Unfortunate although it maybe, the gang of five (oldnat, brownedov,bigballoon, ed, brigadier) are hardly attracting the consensus of pluralism,I do hope the gang of five consider putting on their own festival show (although,i would'nt suffer the show myself) but,they might attract some sympathetic thatcherites for their cause.
By the right, quick, LAUGH!!!!!!!!!!!!
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#404 Brownedov
Interesting to note that when a Labour site reports on the ICM poll, they repeat the "1% up" nonsense that the Guardian does.
When I was crunching numbers for Councllors (and education officials), I usually put in a decimal point to stop them thinking there was anything significant about a "1%" difference - sometimes simply a shift from x.4 to x.5!
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#403 bighullabaloo
Well, as hadrianswall's #398 suggests, he'd have to have had a fairly positive view to get paid.
Maybe he does indeed believe it's already lost, but if "Duff" Gordon is lost with it, he may hope a desperate Labour Party might welcome him back for having tried and also for the Moslem support he has.
Whatever, I think he's burned his bridges in Scotland except as a political cabaret act.
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For those not of a nervous disposition, you can't beat "The Collected derekbarker" for a bizarre insight into the thought-train of an internet troll. You can see it by clicking on his username. On second thoughts, don't bother.
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#407 Brownedov
Galloway will never need to cross bridges in Scotland. Apart from anything else, he owns a very nice villa in the Algarve which is a lot easier to reach from London.
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bighullabaloo,
Having a panic attack baloo? or just a short burst of "SENSE"
Are you really that keen on Galloway,glad too read it! now! go tell your fellow manic's,that the bigbaloo is for turning.
Thanks for the punt.........still laughing LOL.;.
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Has anyone else spotted the fact that the guardian poll successfully canvased 101% of the UK? Not bad! Even I can't do that!
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Well,Well, baloo,is there anything you dont know about George?
Go on then, run it by me,you onced interviewed the man on a mandolin.....
still laughing.
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#406 oldnat
Yes - sloppy but effective if they had nothing better to say.
#409 bighullabaloo
But sometimes I get the feeling he'd like to be a "real" politician again.
Anyway, work tomorrow so I'll call it a night. Hope to catch up with you PM
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#411 Brian
It's called "rounding". If one party gets 29.5% and another gets 30.5%, then they are sharing 60% of the vote. However, when the percentages are rounded up to whole numbers, they're shown as 30% and 31%, which looks as if it's 61%.
It's a statistical thing which is as common as United not getting a clear penalty against Celtic, when the ref has a clear view of the incident!
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I see Guido Fawkes doesn't understand rounding either.
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Iain Gray seems desperate to talk to anyone about anything - but he's being cold-shouldered. Wonder why?
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Ah, rounding, "THERE SHALL BE A ROUNDING" I like that!
OLDnat dont you think your a bit round in your political demeanour,an old musical instrument thats a bit flat;
The catharsis was led by his emotions.
Smile.;.... LOL
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#416 oldnat
It's only about a week since former Labour finance minister Tom McCabe warned these three would-be drinkers of the poisoned chalice popularly known as "the leadership of Labour at Holyrood" that the council tax was an "unfair burden" and called for it to be scrapped. One of them even publicly agreed with him.
You've got got three people here whom the vast majority of Scots wouldn't be able to tell you the name of, trying to do desperate deals with their former "sworn political enemies" , and getting the cold shoulder! I don't think it's possible to get any more politically irrelevant than that.
Meanwhile the SNP has got a clear, easily-understandable policy for a local income tax to replace a council tax that a lot of low earning families find to be an intolerable burden, or to put it another way that these Labour thickos don't seem to get: a vote winner.
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Yes, the council tax is an unfair system: a knee jerk reaction to the replacing of the poll tax.
Does the SNP have a clear position on the local income tax policy,remember it has to be fair, so what rate would the income tax be set at, in terms of yearly income.
Tax, complex and difficult to introduce,what is needed, is a consensus on tax, thats is clear and workable.
Will the SNP scrap tax credit?
You see baloo,dont jump the gun,there is nothing in cast iron stone on local taxation,"YET"
GOOD! ASK: ALTHOUGH...;...;..
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Brownedov,
I pray never to see a 'majority' government again.Slainte
ed
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bighullaballoo
Thinking about the lack of co-operation between Annabel and the (probable) Labour winner Grey, I thought I'd have a quick look at the Calman Commission website.
Pretty dire, and Profs Curtice and Jefferey presumably made a few bob (of our money!) by rehashing well known stuff in Power Point presentations.
They don't yet give the timetable for their "ask the people" roadshows - though the first one is in Stirling on 1 September. Might be fun to attend one, though I'll probably be abroad for the rest.
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Could Brown be so disgraceful as to push the candidate he wants for Glenrothes in a eulogy to MacDougall?
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A second chamber in Scotland.
Most people will know, the late great Robin Cook's last position in government was the leader of the house. Robin brought forward some brilliant white paper policy on how too reform the house of lords, unfortunately is was voted down.
A second chamber,would it be elected or appointed.
I'll give you my take for what its worth (not a condescending comedy) For me its a bit like that abbott and costello act "WHO IS ON FIRST BASE" if you create a second chamber to scrutinise the first chamber, then someone will call for a third chamber to scrutinise the second chamber,before you know it: politics will eat the entire budjet.
Keep laughing.;....
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I see the BBC are leading again with ...shock...dead body seen in hospital.
Thankfully this time the management have backed up thier staff instead of stabbing them in the back.
this truly is a pathetic thing your doing bbc..or are the deceased not to be blessed anymmore or recieve whatever religious offices they desire.....
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Now on the subject of rounding, as an engineer I know that you always round down or up to 100% or it just looks plain silly.
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#424: it even made the national news this morning!
What next?! Fish dies at sea?!
One thing that hasn't been mentioned yet is that some people in hospital are forced to lie in the same ward as ill people, sometimes literally for days at a time!! What if they infect each other for goodness sake? What is the health minister doing to stop this intolerable situation?! Ban Ki-moon should resign.
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forfar loon.... I know, appalling isnt it
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"AUTOLYSIS"
What pressure are the united nations putting on Russia?
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BBC Scotland News Flash:
People Die in Hospitals!
The Kremlin-on-the-Clydes security service discovered yet more evidence of the capitalist incompetence of the dirty nationalists!
Alas they stoop to such levels that despite being in power for an entire year they have failed to grant immortality to the small-folk of our great socialist paradise!
King Eck and Lady Sturgeon were reported to be quaking in their boots at this latest damming revelation regarding their inability to govern!
Rumours abound that the small-folk of socialist paradise need fear no longer for Comarde Broon shall appoint Lieutenant Gray to ally with the Goldienne counter-revolutionists to smash the Nationalists in the great battle of Hollyrood and reveal their great treachary against the socialist republic!
Comrade Broon, shall then return to Kirckaldy to rain mana and nectar upon the subjects of the paradise transforming them into immortal beings that shall neither fear dead, pain nor disease!
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What do you think? Personally I think I'm worryingly close to the truth.