Should there really be a GB FC?
Sport can provoke quite exceptional extremes of passion: delight, despair and bitterness. And it's even worse among the participants.
How about that Aussie comment to the effect that Team GB could only win at sports where they took part sitting down? Just marvel at the bile that generated that gag.
Now that Team GB - or shouldn't that be Team UK - are on their way back, having successfully piloted their huge haul of medals through the airport metal detectors, there's fresh argument.
Longer term, we will be able to pick over the cost and capacity of the London preparations for 2012.
Right now, the sport of choice is to work out whether there should be an all-UK football team taking part in those games four years off.
GB backs Team GB at footy. The Prime Minister reckons it would be daft to skip a sport which Britain gave to the world.
He believes he can reassure the sundry football associations who fear that Team GB at the Olympics would lead to Team GB in the European Championships, the World Cup or even a GB-calculated entry in the club championships.
Of course, Mr Brown makes this point purely on a sporting basis. The thought of advancing his cause of Britishness never entered his mind. In response, Alex Salmond says such a notion is nonsense.
The fans, he says, are against it. It would jeopardise Scotland's place in international football competition. And for what? To allow an under-23 side with perhaps a couple of Scots to enter the Olympics.
Mr Salmond, of course, makes this case purely on a sporting basis. The thought...you get the concept.
For the purposes of this blog, I'm going to act as referee. (Hopefully, one who knows that the game is called football for a reason and that one is not allowed to score goals with one's hands. Bitter, me?)
Seriously, it's over to you. Should there be an all-UK football team in the Olympics next time round? State your reasons succinctly. Me, I'd settle for Team DU putting one over Cowdenbeath in whatever the League Cup is called these days.
I'm 
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~04~RS~)
Comments
Sign in or register to comment.
Brian
The reason that its Team GB is that the IOC recognises the Irish Olympic Committee as representing all 32 counties on the island.
The BritNats no doubt object and demand that Olympic Committees should be delineated according to internationally recognised state borders - in which case Hong Kong and other non-UN members would not have been able to take part.
So Catalonia? Scotland?
Complain about this comment
Brian - never mind about Team DU putting one over Cowdenbeath (the blue Brazil) tomorrow night. Maybe you'd advocate your Team DU to pitch up as Team UK in 2012 - then if they were drawn against Saudi Arabia it would be Arabs v. Arabs. With fond regards from the other side of Sandeman Street.
Complain about this comment
Should there be a British Team at the 2012 Olympics?
Of course not. Never! If Scotland was to unite under Britain then why should we not enter the World Cup as Britain and other events?
This is yet another attempt by Gordon Brown to force Britishness upon the country. I would suggest that each home nation to play one another then the winner can represent Britain on an international level.
Complain about this comment
It's a perfectly good idea. There's been no problems with the Lions rugby team, so why should there be with this?
Complain about this comment
The four UK nations compete perfectly heathily in the Commonwealth Games as they used to do in football until the English clubs became too greedy to permit the "home" tournament to get in the way of their pursuit of money.
Much better would be for the BOA to split and for all four to compete separately in both the Olympics and the Commonwealth Games.
Brown makes this all up as he goes along - see Gazza goal not favourite on Michael Crick's blog - and nobody listens to him on anything much nowadays - why should anyone listen to him on this?
Complain about this comment
The argument that we should have a UK team because we are part of a UK political union doesnt wash anymore,im a proud Scot however im also proud to be a European citizen therefore why not a EU team.
Complain about this comment
Succinctly, hmm.
I think that there should be a TeamGB composed of suitably able players from the four home nations.
The only thing that needs ironed out is the confusion over whether it would cause problems for us as independent footballing nations afterwards. If those issues are ironed out, I am fully in support of TeamGB the football team.
Why? Well, I am with big Gordon on this one. We've got to field some sort of team. If it makes things easier, I'm open to suggestions such as Cathy Jamieson's. I'd rather, however, that a manager (Ferguson?) got the opportunity to pick the best talent from the home nations.
Complain about this comment
#4 Anaxim
"There's been no problems with the Lions rugby team, so why should there be with this?"
FIFA and EUFA for a start.
Complain about this comment
#1 oldnat
You're right about Ireland of course, so make that 3 nations in my #5.
Complain about this comment
Ha, the real reason Alex Salmond et al don't want a GB team is not because of their fears of losing their FIFA recognition. it's because no players from Scotland, NI or Wales would get in the team. Their football leagues are mickey mouse. Only celtic and rangers are any good and they would be good championship sides, not premier. Field an English only GB side and let us not embarrass ourselves.
Complain about this comment
#4
There are problems actually.
Complain about this comment
All this reads as is a Brown yet again trying to appear less Scottish to the English electorate.
Scotland represents itself in the Commonwealth games and a various other sports internationally. The most appealing thing to do is to go for a Scottish Olympic team for 2012. There are a number of principalities already participating in the Olympics so the constitutional situation is not a problem - except perhaps to G Brown!
(Scotland would have come fairly high in the Olympic table this time).
If Scotland was herself represented around ten times as many Scots would have been at the games with a team about the same size as Norway's.
I'll bet the Englkish would prefer an English soccer team at the Olympics!
Complain about this comment
I really do not see what the issue is on this? We compete as GB at the Olympics, we compete as Lions in Rugby and we compete as seperate nations in various other events.
Who knows or cares where Chris Hoy, Rebecca Adlington or Christine Ohorugu come from when they are representing Team GB? It is about competing as nation, as a team.
Is it just "England" who want this team to participate? Maybe Scotland should arrange their independence prior to 2012 so they can compete on their own, with their own funding and their own country to pay for, without subsidy from the rest of the UK.
We should end this debate now and get the team sorted and as an "Englishmen" I am happy to put a Scot in charge of the team and let the players decide if they want to play (like Messi!) and not the policitians, who to be honest, have more important things to be worrying about.
Complain about this comment
Brownedov:
"FIFA and EUFA for a start."
So what? They're private organisations. What they do is their own business, and who cares anyway?
Complain about this comment
#10 lordtrubster
When you sneer, it's so much more effective if you are accurate. The Northern Irish are recognised by the OIC as being part of the Irish team (though Team GB includes them if they wish, and they're good enough).
You also don't understand the difference between club and international football.
Your post was a waste of space really. Not a single relevant point!
Complain about this comment
One thing I forgot to add is that FIFA and UEFA have both stated that a GB team competing at the Olympics would not jeopardise the status of Northern Ireland, Wales and Scotland. What more do you want?!
Complain about this comment
What really gets me about this issue is the way the arguments put forward by the SFA and Scotland fans are just brushed aside. We are seen as no more than party poopers and should be good boys and girls and fall into line.
There's no acknowledgement of any perspective other than the London 2012 one. The arrogance of people like Craig Reedie, the petulant Simon Clegg (of the BOA), the English FA, and now Gordon Brown, is breathtaking: it makes me wonder if there is anything more to it than a handful of games of fitba.
It's obvious when thinks about it though, especially for Brown. What better way is there to entrench Britishness than to get rid of the Scotland international side, one of the few opportunities we get to be Scots on the international stage? Neat, eh.
Never trust a son of the manse.
NB: for all those people using the British Lions as an example of teams coming together, just bear in mind that it is a touring and not a national side. It includes players from the Irish Republic - try telling them they are representing Britain!
Complain about this comment
I thought the Olympics were about AMATEUR sport, not professionals.
Get the best amateur players. We already have the World Cup, why do we need the Olympics as well?
A UK team just would not work, since there would be arguments about what nation would provide the most players.
Both Alex Salmond and Gordon Brown are using sport for political purposes. Enough is enough. Sport is supposed to transcend boundaries, not create them.
Complain about this comment
Its just a game
Why dont they field a political team.
Lets say, the labour party up front, the liberals in the midfield and the tories at the back.
The nats, well they can be the ball boys, and wee eck EH! what could he be?
dont call a friend for this one........???????
Complain about this comment
I'm all for it.
I'm sure they'd do as well as Team Westmidden under Catain G. Brown and they could get the National Lottery for English Causes to pay for them as well.
I'm all for it
Complain about this comment
#16
Of course they say that. However once we compete as Britain then there should be no reason why we cannot compete as Britain in the future.
Complain about this comment
nodtobob Wrote....
"to get rid of the Scotland international side"
Nobody has suggested this! Why can't you accept that you are part of Team GB until you arrange it otherwise!
If the whole of Scotland feels that strongly, I suggest you vote for independence now.
Complain about this comment
#21
The USSR and Yugoslavia now make up half of the teams in Europe, so I don't imagine they will request we merge into Team GB!
Complain about this comment
#18 Neil
Olympics amateur? Those rules went a long time ago.
"We already have the World Cup, why do we need the Olympics as well?" absolutely right, major team sports with their own world championships don't need to be at the (already overcrowded) Olympics.
"Sport is supposed to transcend boundaries, not create them." I agree, but the modern Olympiad was created in a competitive imperialist climate. I see little point in aggregating numbers of medals won by individuals from any geographic unit - political or otherwise. Personally, I found Phelps' achievements worth celebrating even more than someone from Scotland.
Complain about this comment
@21
The British Olympic Association shouldn't have its freedom curtailed just because of some football associations don't like the idea. They're completely separate.
Complain about this comment
No not in a month of Sundays, for a start why should over-payed professionals take part in a sporting program which was initially for amateurs.
If a team GB is put forward then Scottish, Welsh etc. football will suffer in the long term by being voted out of all International competition in their own right.
The whole concept is a political stunt for the Britishness to be accepted as the way forward. Think again GB and don't forget your P45 on the way out.
Complain about this comment
Between now and 2012 we have an independence referendum and two parliamentary elections (Westminster and Holyrood). There's a realistic chance that by 2012 Scotland will be irrevocably on the road to independence - if you look at the relative popularities of Salmond and Brown, of SNP and Labour, would you really bet against it?
If we choose independence, then of course there will be a Scottish team at the English Olympics. If not, there won't. Saying anything else is rattling a toom drum.
And before anyone gets chauvinistic about this (on either side of the argument) Scotland did score slightly better than 'Team GB' (sic): one gold for every 1.7 million Scots if you count Sir Chris' team sprint medal, one gold for every 2.55 million if you don't - against 'Team GB' (sick!) with one gold for 3.21 million.
But if it had been Chris Hoy and not Jason McIntyre who'd gone under the wheels of a careless motorist this January, we'd have had no golds at all. And the velodrome where both Chris and Ross Edgar developed their talent is currently being demolished by Edinburgh City Council.Without it, where will our next generation of elite cyclists come from?
We've no laurels to rest on. Chris Hoy, Ross Edgar, Katherine Grainger and David Florence won their medals themselves without a lot of help from the rest of this obese nation. Chris Hoy is quoted as saying that he doesn't think he'd have had the success he did in a Scottish team, and, given the poor state of sporting facilities in Scotland I think he's probably right.
This is not a reason for not flying our own flag. This is not a reason for not putting together our own team. It's not just winning that counts, it's also taking part; and Team Scotland would give a lot more of our athletes the chance.
In the end, independence is worth more than medals.
Complain about this comment
#22
"Nobody has suggested this! Why can't you accept that you are part of Team GB until you arrange it otherwise!"
It has not be suggested...openly. However in the long term we may be asked to form one team and one team only. At the end of the day Scotland will end up taking the brunt of it all and we will only be able to get one or two players into the team.
#23
"The USSR and Yugoslavia now make up half of the teams in Europe."
Sorry to burst your bubble but the USSR and Yugoslavia no longer exist. What point are you trying to make?
Complain about this comment
#6 NConway, Team EU would be a good idea at least in so far as it would make our athletes part of a team that would have a chance of winning as many medals as the USA and China.
Furthermore, we might start taking an interest in how well athletes of other European states are doing. At present the UK media focus on the medal count of Team GB - how do the Northern Irish feel about that name, by the way? - while the French media are hardly interested in anything other than how the French team is doing.
All this so-called nationalistic pettiness needs to be either stamped out or rationalized. As the French would never countenance giving up their separate representation in international sport, it has to be rationalization. As Team GB which isn't Team GB is anything but rational, it should go. Team Scotland will do fine so far as I am concerned . . . in football and every other sport in every international arena under the sun.
To the English it's all about England. If you want to be part of their team, it's actually in reality so far as they are concerned essentially and primarily Team England, and don't you forget it, just as a British passport is an English passport and the UK is England with a few bits added on that they hardly even think about given half a chance.
So far as a GB football team is concerned, the important thing for the non-English parts of the UK is, as always, to beware the thin end of the wedge.
Complain about this comment
personally, I'm in favour of a GB team. I understand the fears of the home nations that a unified team would jeopardise their status as individual entities within FIFA but FIFA (and most importantly Sepp Blatter) should make an unreserved statement saying that this would not be the case. This, after all, is a one off and I can think of no other occassion where a GB team would be relevant. It is important that GB is represented in EVERY sport at our Olympics, even those sports where our chances of success are minimal. Some might argue that football comes under this! There are solutions. The Scottish labour Party mentioned a playoff of the home nations whereby the winner of this mini tournament goes on to represent GB in London 2012. Not a bad idea and a money spinner to boot. Football is a money business isn't it? so this idea satisfies the puritans and the money sceptics alike. Another suggestion (this one is mine) is to give the GB berth to players from outside of the home nations juristiction. Players from Channel Islands, Isle of Man etc have no international status as their countries are not recognised officially by FIFA so a chance to represent GB would give these players some recognition. Yes, GB would get thumped and yes, it would be an early exit but we can say we were respresented at our Games and players who will never enjoy the limelight of professional football can at least say that they were once Olympians.
Complain about this comment
#28
The point I was making with the USSR and Yugoslavia is that instead of two teams we now have about 11! GB already split into 4 teams so not really an argument to put them back together.
Some Scots obviously have issues with the concept of Team GB - I am sure Chris Hoy is happy being part of it though.
Complain about this comment
#10 You're aware that the new FIFA rankings published on September 3 will see Scotland move ABOVE England, yes?
Football is a team game, your underachieving prima donnas are more concerned with making sure the sponsor logos on their boots are seen on TV than with playing the game.
Complain about this comment
"Nobody has suggested this! Why can't you accept that you are part of Team GB until you arrange it otherwise!"
"It has not be suggested...openly"
Team Europe has been suggested openly but do you think that makes it more likely! I don't think so....
If Scotland have issues competing under GB, what do you think GB, France and Germany would feel competing as Team EU?!
Complain about this comment
Short comment from a Welshman.
Brown can stick this where the sun don't shine.
Complain about this comment
Is the Salmon all there. Does it really matter as long as there is aTeam
Complain about this comment
#29 Ben Lomond, if you look at the medal table in terms of medals per million population, China came sixty-sixth, United States forty-fourth, Russia thirty-sixth and 'Team GB' twenty-second. The Australians, at sixth, beat 'Team GB' hollow, but the runaway winners were the Bahamas and Jamaica.
In any case, it is not nations who win medals. It is individual athletes. 5.1 million Scots may have cheered on Chris Hoy, but 5.1 million Scots won't put our hands in our pockets to save the velodrome where he learned to race. We did very little to contribute to his success, and we can claim very little credit for it.
Complain about this comment
#31
USSR and Yugoslavia disolved into smaller independent countries. These countries have the right to host their own football teams, do they not?
Complain about this comment
#14 Anaxim
"So what?"
1st they could decide to only accept UK entries to European and World competitions.
2nd the IOC is also a private club, so what was your point?
#16 Engerrland
"FIFA and UEFA have both stated that a GB team competing at the Olympics would not jeopardise the status of Northern Ireland, Wales and Scotland"
1st it is only officials who have said that. The membership would ultimately need to vote on it.
2nd what authority would the BOA have to delegate selection of a GB team?
Complain about this comment
# 30, telkat, it isn't 'our' olympics. It's London's olympics. London is not in Scotland. It's a long way from Scotland. And it's quite possible that by the time London holds it's olympics, there won't be a 'GB' to have a team.
Complain about this comment
Yes of course there should be a GB team. There should be a GB team or participant in every event if we're supposed to be hosting the event! Surely that is stupidly obvious to everyone.
Alex Salmond is playing politics because he knows it will fire up the nationalists and win him votes.
Just ask the Scottish, Welsh and Irish players themselves if they want to take part and to hell with the national associations. It frankly has nothing to do with them! Did Chris Hoy get permission from anyone before taking part in Team GB? The BOA should just appoint a manager who can offer a position in the team to any British person he sees fit and get on with it. Forget about FIFA! It really annoys me that this is such a debate.
ps. and the idea we should have a 'knock out' to see who represents us is ridiculous - why get rid of any of the best players? Talk about hindering your medal chances!
Complain about this comment
Say no to GB.
The Labour party new of the football issue when they bid for the games.
This is not Scotland's problem.
The London vanity project has created this issue itself. Tough.
Anyway, by 2012 Broon will be gone and the UK hopefully over.
Bring it on.
Complain about this comment
#33 Engerrland
"what do you think GB, France and Germany would feel competing as Team EU?!"
Works fine for the Ryder Cup.
Politicians will always tend to use sport for their own purposes.
Complain about this comment
Simon_Brooke
Where can we see the Medals Table with the Population etc?
Complain about this comment
Perhaps we could create a Holyrood team where the best members of the Scottish Parliament put aside their political differences to defeat the Westminster equivalent.
Oh, we already do, it's called the SNP government and they look to be well on course to qualify for both the EU and UN spots in 2010.
Complain about this comment
I'm disappointed that we the national blood sport of "kick the Lib-Dems" has been delayed. How long does it take them to count a couple of thousand votes?
Complain about this comment
There's NO problem with a British Olympic football team - that isn't political.
Which just show how sad things currently are.
Complain about this comment
#39 Simon_Brooke
As a Scot I feel very much part of London 2012's plans and I am really looking forward to it. An olympics at home is amazing and gives us all a brilliant opportunity to take advantage of the atmosphere and excitement that will come with it.
Hampden is one of the football venues, if that helps you.
Complain about this comment
It would be interesting to ask the English whether they would be happier supporting an English team or a GB one. This is sport after all and national identity is the fuel of sporting enthusiasm. My national identity is Scottish. I support Scotland. Those whose national identity is English will probably be happier supporting England. That is not anti anything. That is a statement of fact.
GB is not a national identity except perhaps to those who think the term is interchangeable with a "Greater England" concept.
I wonder if the logical concept of an EU team will gather any support in GB.
Complain about this comment
@38
"1st they could decide to only accept UK entries to European and World competitions.
2nd the IOC is also a private club, so what was your point?"
As I said, that's their business. Why should the BOA be constrained by quarreling FAs? They're both private entities, unconnected with one another.
Complain about this comment
#39, simon_Brooke.
Speaking as an Englishman I'd love to see Scotland attain independence. But you're dreaming if you think that it will happen within the next four years. And as for it being 'our' Olypmics, then remember that Glasgow is one of the venues for the football tournament and therefore Scotland will benefit from our Games not to mention revenue from increased tourism, increased funding nationwide for sport and a keener spotlight of athletes from ALL of the home nations. Were the games to be held in glasgow or edinburgh then I'd still see it as our games.
shame a portion of Brits don't see London in the same way
Complain about this comment
There should be no problem with a GB team with footballers representing the 4 nations-but for the Olympics only.
I live in Scotland-my parents are from Eire and I am English.
I am British before I am English.
Scottish people are Scottish before they are British. ( if at all)
This is the problem.
They feel controlled by Westminster and given past history with England there will always be an animosity from many Scots towards the South.
Until I lived here I had no idea how bad it was including the Sectarian element also.
This will always manifest itself when football is discussed as it is a sport dear to everyone.
There is nothing "english " about Gordon Brown-he is just a well travelled liberal man who is proud to be British and Scottish unlike many of his fellow countrymen.
It saddens me that so many people are small minded up here.
How nice it was to see Chris Hoy proud to be carrying the Union Jack-of course though straight away the Scots are banging on half the medal winners are Scottish and that it should be a Scottish team only.
Very sad-how can a football team overcome this?
Ironically it should-sport is for all and rhe Olympics are the pinnacle for these players-especially if they are amateur-would you begrudge this to the lad down the street?
Complain about this comment
I'd rather see a seperate Scottish Olympic team that would kill this subject once and for all!! At least this way the athletes could perform safe in the knowledge that they wont be banned from flying the saltire when they win!!. Before these past Olympics I thought it was the Chinese who were the dictatorship.....but to ban athletes from flying their nation flag is an utter disgrace!!
Complain about this comment
#40
I belive that Gordon Brown is playing politcs over sports here. Alex Salmond has nothing to do with this. This is another attempt for Brown to force Britishness upon the country and appeal to England.
Complain about this comment
#48
I support England when they play and I support the UK, GB and Europe (Ryder Cup as pointed out by #42) in relevant competitions.
I also want the rest of the home nations to do well. (My grandparents are scottish/welsh)
When games are going to be played in Wales, Scotland and England, I don't see why everyone is continuing with the point about London.
Beijing won the 2008 Olympics but China were the hosts - some events were 500 miles away!
Complain about this comment
I've been searching for confirmation of what I stated re the position of Northern Ireland in my #1 - which seemed to be contradicted by the BOA to claim to represent GB and NI.
Cranmer seems to have the answer.
Can anyone refute or confirm his description of the situation with documentary evidence?
Complain about this comment
No Engerrlund, the threat to our separate footballing existence is not explicit, but it's there. Any amalgamation, even if it's supposidly a one-off, will be pounced on by Jack Walker and his cronies in FIFA.
Who he? Head of the North American federation, that's who, and he doesn't like the Home Nations. As someone else said, an Olympic team would be the thin edge of the wedge; why set a precedent?
I'm sure the powers that be in London are well aware of this and that's what makes me think there are wider agendas at work here, especially with Brown. (The guy's nothing but a political calculating machine and his time as Chancellor has certainly taught me to read the small print.)
I'm a Nat so I would take this view, but there are lots of Scots who believe the the Union affords them plenty space to express a Scottish as well as British identity. I fear they're in for a rude shock over the next four years.
In the last few days we have seen a concerted effort to steamroller the Olympic team through and it's going to get worse. Browbeating, belittling, sneering and general all round bullying; we're had a foretaste. The thing is, I reckon there are going to be a helluva lot of p***** **f Scots by the time we get to 2012. Bring the nation together? Aye right!
NB: apologies to the Irish for referring to the British Lions when it should be the British and Irish Lions. No dis intended.
Complain about this comment
#51.
"There should be no problem with a GB team with footballers representing the 4 nations-but for the Olympics only."
There is a problem. Once Britain enters as one team then there will be no reason why Britain should not compete as 'Britain'.
"How nice it was to see Chris Hoy proud to be carrying the Union Jack."
I wear the Union Jack on my uniform. Do you think that I am expressing my love for Britain? Do you think I do not belive in Scottish Independence? There is no problem that Chris Hoy carrying the Union Jack but I would not assume they support the Union.
Complain about this comment
#56.
Bring the Nation together? You may have thought China had excellent firework demostrations but I am confident Britain can quite easily outdo China by bringing the Nation together. Especailly over football.
Complain about this comment
So Gordon is trying to associate himself with something successful this year?
Complain about this comment
The problem is that we have some of the world's finest football on display in the UK every week but none of the home teams manage to turn that into international results. The players simply do not have the training and match practice together which is needed. If the home nations cannot manage this, what chance have we got getting a GB team ready for a global competition and what manager worth his salt is going to take on a team which plays one competition every four years?
If we must do this, Thomas_Porter at #3 has it right. Let the home international champions go forward to represent the UK.
Complain about this comment
43. Engerrland
The BBC have a table of medals per hundred thousand population here (third table down). The website which first got me interested in the topic is here, but it isn't up to date with the last week of the games. My own blogs on the subject are here and here
It's all a lot of silly posturing anyway. Chris Hoy put in a superb performance - but that was Chris Hoy's performance, not 'Scotland's'. Ross Edgar, Katherine Grainger and David Florence were extraordinary, too. Scotland as a whole isn't extraordinary. Scotland, by and large, sat on its sofa eating pizzas and chips.
My own club's youngsters are meantime excelling both in Scottish and in UK competitions, and with any luck we'll have more of our riders ride for Scotlandin future. Frankly, one of the reasons I'd like to see a Scottish team at the Olympics is to give more of them a chance to take part.
Complain about this comment
#49 Anaxim
Of course, as a commercial organisation, the BOA could act unilaterally and enter an English team since they already recognise the (English) Football Association as the relevant governing body. The FA would be ill-advised to pick players of other nations as that would potentially conflict with its own membership of FIFA and EUFA, unless they can reach agreement with the other national FAs and get cast-iron guarantees from the FIFA and EUFA membership. Do you really think they would be wise to?
What this issue does is to open the lid a little on the woefully undemocratic way sport is organised in the UK. Brown may think that opening this can of worms might just save his skin but will an incoming Tory government want to have anything to do with his crazy dreams? My bet is that they will be aiming to minimise the public funding for private gain and will be desperately trying to keep everything as unclear as ever.
Complain about this comment
Time for bed so one last thought (at least for Scotland fans):
The SFA need to be a bit more robust in fighting their corner on this one. Why not tell the BOA to shove their Olympics and that the use of Hampden is a non-starter?
Hampden Park is sacred ground: it's for Scottish football, European Cup Finals and the odd Rod Stewart concert - not mickey mouse events like under-23 Olympic football!
Cheers to all (and fight the good fight).
Complain about this comment
What is it with people like Gordon Brown and Messrs Coe and Moynihan?. How often do they need to be told; the majority of Scots are not interested in having anything to do with a GB Football team.
We are not interested in playing the other home nations to decide who represents team GB. Nor would we be interested even if we were guaranteed the entire team would consist of only Scottish players.
Football at the Olympics is, and has been, since it became an Olympic sport, one of the lesser attractions for both the viewing public and the media broadcasters. So, if there really must be a team representing Great Britain in 2012?; Let the English take care of it, because nobody else is interested!.
And by the way Brian,; You should inform your BBC buddies, to stop suggesting ways that might help all parties reach an agreeable arrangement. We Scots are very content with the situation as it is; Thankyou very much.
Complain about this comment
Is it true that GB stands for that well known Scottish fellow Gordon Brown?
I suspect that Team GB is in fact a crude attempt by Scotland's most loved politician to build a personality cult ahead of 2012.
Sadly for him, Team GB is less popular in Wales than it appears to be in his home country, so his evil plan is doomed.
I'll take my tongue out of my cheek now, but if this dastardly plan to subvert Welsh and Scottish national identity succeed I will have to emigrate.
2012 is the last hurrah for British nationalism. Resistance is fertile!
Complain about this comment
What gets me is the unbelievable arrogance in the behaviour of some of the politicians in this whole affair. I think that both Gordon Brown and Alex Salmond are generally both at it but GB isn't proposing anything particularly revolutionary in any terms in that we are having a British team at a British Olympics and the scottish, Irish and Welsh football associations are opposing it on the grounds that it may take away their status so GB has announced that he will work to get guarantees that this wouldn't happen. alex Salmond is doing nothing other than using other peoples achievements for his own gain.
I'm an avid supporter of the Scotland football team, I go to most matches that I can get tickets for (harder and harder as we get more successful!!) and I would actively oppose a team at the olympics if it jeopardised that status. I see no harm in working towards finding out if its possible and promoting it. If Scottish football players don't wish to participate then that is their choice.
And this is THE most important thing of all. There has been NO consideration whatsoever by the SNP for the interests of the Scottish athletes in this whole Scottish team thing. Whilst I don't doubt that Chris Hoy would still have won his two individual golds regardless of who he represented, depriving up and coming Scottish cyclists of what is clearly a very successfull team and training structure, and the opportunity to participate in teams with the best cyclists from the uk, and to train at the best facilities in the uk down in Manchester, WITHOUT ASKING THEIR OPINION is completely outrageous. Chris Hoys picture and name has been plastered all over their campaign, yet at no point has he ever given his endorsement for the breakup of teamGB or even asked his opinion I doubt. I suspect given his involvement in that team structure down in Manchester he would be extremely keen not to be removed from it for the political gain of the SNP, but its wrong to use these people as an example without asking their opinion.
Their is a simple reality here, Scottish athletes will have less access to facilities and strong training if we have an individual Scottish team or an independent Scotland. Those who compete in teams, would have less access to good team-mates. Badminton pairings that people have worked in and trained together for years, consisting of one scots and one welsh person will be forced apart through no choice of their own, but to further the political agenda of the SNP.
I don't think this is a matter of yay independence or not. If we took such a decision in a referendum then that would be that. But in reality there is not popular support for independence in scotland, there never has been. As a result this is a debate about what we should do with national olympic teams in the current context. Since the only goal of promoting it within this context is to further an agenda of changing the politics rather than sporting success I think it shouldn't be given the airtime. There is no benefit to our athletes, that should be the primary consideration, not Mr Salmonds political goals.
It's a disgrace therefore to overshadow the success of our athletes, that have worked hard for countless years to achieve their goals, by using their achievements to further other peoples personal goals. Ask the athletes what they think, I doubt very much that they will take the same attitude as Alex Salmond.
Complain about this comment
Brian
I am tagging you to continue a blog meme started by Iain Dale..
http://aitkensedinburgh.blogspot.com/2008/08/new-challenge-for-me.html
hope you can meet the challenge
Kind Regards
Ewan Aitken
Complain about this comment
NCA999
What are you havering about?
The SNP has not said anything whatseover about Chris Hoy nor has it used Chris Hoy's photo.
You are maybe getting mixed up with the despicable distortion of Chris Hoy's and Stewart Maxwell's remarks published yesterday in the antiScotsman.
Alex Salmond's remarks are exclusively about the unwiseness from Scottish football's point of view of a GB team at the next Olympics.
Complain about this comment
Goodness No. Mind you the Tartan Army could have some time off, as Rangers Fans took over the mantle of following the (Union) Flag.
King Sean says yes to Scottish team at Olympics or would that be team Hoy (and what a fine role model, and ambassador too, the latter would be).
Perhaps King Sean could take the idea further and avail his income to the full extent of taxation in this country like all of us other..er...Scots have to.
Complain about this comment
#67 Ewan
Alternatively, you could just have said No, and avoided the spread of this rather pathetic chain letter.
"I am tagging you" - what a bunch of weans you all are.
Presumably you were involved in that pathetic little spat in Edinburgh Council.
You couldn't bear the convention that the Convenor of the Education Committee writes to schools on behalf of the council, so you table a stupid motion.
Of course, the administration was equally petty in responding as it did. What they should have done is to have sent a second letter along the lines of "the opposition in Edinburgh Council also wish to tell you that you done good."
Sad little people, and you all devalue politics.
Want to reply to my meme? I tag you.
Complain about this comment
Having just read you post again I find it to be the absolute epitome of the Scottish cringe.
What makes you think an independent Scotland would be less prepared to provide athletic facilities than any other nation?
Surely the poor state of investment in Scottish Sport is largely the result of our minor position in UK and the fact that the UK government has routinely spent most of its revenue in this field in the south.
That is where most of the population live. That is not going to change unless we are independent.
This of course is the sort of response one gets all the time from timid unionists. They look at the sad state of so much of Scotland but never seem to work out that the sad state is as the result of the union. Those of us who want independence want it because we will do things differently and better.
Complain about this comment
Actually snockedagain my point was that as part of a larger team they would have larger access to facilities.
2 Reasons, that I thought would have been obvious.
1. It might just happen to be that the best facility in the British Isles for any given sport, like it is for cycling for example is somewhere in England. This is not because the Scottish government is not providing for its athletes, there are facilities in scotland where they can train, in this one particular example however they're just not as good. Its not in our interests to have to finance a duplication of all training facilities north of the border. And even if we did, it would not automatically make them better than those we would otherwise have access to. if they are better however then all of teamGB will be using them.
2. Some teams are successful as a team, rather than because of us having lots of talent in that field. Cycling again for example, we've went to the level we are at now, since 15 years ago when we had nothing, because one coach stood up and took control over british cycling and built up a tremendously successful team. Saying to Scottish athletes that they have to withdraw from that team.
If there are better coaches or training facilities in Scotland then our athletes will be using them, if not then they won't. Its not a case of whether the Scottish government would provide for them. I believe and hope that in an independent scotland whatever government was in power would strive to promote and assist sport. Our athletes would however always benefit from being part of a larger country, with more access to facilities, teams and training facilities.
I'd honestly thought this would be obvious, sorry for not elaborating further for you in advance.
Complain about this comment
Football Team GB is just another attempt by Brown to let middle England see he is as British/English as they are and that he and Nu Labour are worthy of their vote.
But he no more believes it will happen than I do. Apart from anything else Brown might not be PM at the end of 2008 never mind 2012.
There's more chance of a Team Scotland in 2012 than a Football Team GB.
Complain about this comment
#72 NCA999
So if we want to perfect the elite "Our athletes would however always benefit from being part of a larger country, with more access to facilities, teams and training facilities."
Team EU is the obvious answer. But you could, extend the concept- human beings won every single medal. Let's see a small number of the top athletes performing, regardless of their ethnic/political origin.
Alternatively, we could maximise the number of participants as Simon_Brooke is doing, even if they don't have a good chance of a medal.
Complain about this comment
Of course if we want to fund athletes from the public purse, that means taxation. Since taxation for Scotland is still determined by Westmidden Polly Toynbee's critique is relevant here
Complain about this comment
Well again that same argument applies to me advocating a team Argyll and Bute, because then more people would get to participate. A team EU is not a serious proposition because nobody in our country considers European to be their nationality. At the moment, at least, a majority of Scots consider British to be their nationality. Most are proud of being both Scottish and British. As such utilising the best opportunity available to them within their nationality is what my point was.
Complain about this comment
There's no way Scots will be supporting any GB football team. Thank god Scotland will be Independent or on the road to it by 2012. England can field the GB team, hopefully their football rankings will have improved by then as their team is dire at the moment. Oh and i don't think gordon Brown will be very welcome the next time he visits Scotland
Complain about this comment
#76 NCA999
So no one cares about the Ryder Cup when Europe plays (and sometimes beats!) the USA?
Get real. The Ryder Cup used to be UK v USA but as easily transferred to Europe v USA with the same passion.
You may be stuck in some Imperialist time-warp, most of us aren't.
Of course, you realise the intrinsic contradiction between your #72 (pragmatic training facilities) and your #76 (national identity) - or maybe you don't.
Complain about this comment
Brownedov:
"Of course, as a commercial organisation, the BOA could act unilaterally and enter an English team since they already recognise the (English) Football Association as the relevant governing body. The FA would be ill-advised to pick players of other nations as that would potentially conflict with its own membership of FIFA and EUFA, unless they can reach agreement with the other national FAs and get cast-iron guarantees from the FIFA and EUFA membership. Do you really think they would be wise to?"
They could just ignore the various FAs completely. Freedom of association and all that. It's entirely wrong for the BOA to be constrained in going about their lawful business because the nats are upset.
Complain about this comment
NCA99 (posts passim) I think you're wrong that most Scots think themselves 'more British than Scottish'. I'm Scots, not British, and I think that goes for many people.
I agree that the best track cycling facilities in Britain are in Manchester - but mainly because they are very nearly the only track cycling facilities in Britain. Edinburgh is currently demolishing its velodrome, and although Glasgow is building one that is scarcely adequate provision for the sport which earns two thirds of Scotland's medals.
I agree too that Scottish cyclists have benefited from the excellent team of coaches and support staff in Manchester. But compared to Belgium, the Netherlands, France or Italy - countries where an independent Scotland could send cyclists for training - the facilities in Manchester aren't that special. And we could even build a world-class facility in Scotland... It would cost as much as one new striker for Rangers or Celtic.
'Team GB' sent two mountain bikers to Beijing. Britain at present doesn't have any world class mountain bikers, but the two lads who were chosen - on merit - were both English; Scotland's champion did not go. The same is true for many sports. If we had our own team, we might win fewer medals, but more of our athletes would get a chance to compete on the world stage.
And we might not win fewer medals. The team sprint - Chris Hoy's team medal - was won at the Melbourne Commonwealth Games by a Scottish team (Ross Edgar, Chris Hoy, Craig MacLean). Chris is exceptional, but he's by no means our only exceptional cyclist.
In the end this is all a non-story. If we choose independence, we will have our own team. If not, we won't. That's all. I personally hope we will, but for a whole range of reasons of which potential success or otherwise at future olympic games is pretty close to the bottom of the heap.
Complain about this comment
#79 Anaxim
"They could just ignore the various FAs completely. Freedom of association and all that. It's entirely wrong for the BOA to be constrained in going about their lawful business because the nats are upset."
So you think the BOA should remove their recognition of the FA as the governing body? Well, that would be a start if they really want to attempt to field a GB or UK team, but as all their possible opponents are FIFA members, who do you think will play with them?
It is entirely wrong for public money and lottery money intended entirely for charity to prop up an unelected, undemocratic, private business like the BOA.
Any sane government would have insisted it put its own house in order and became accountable to sports participants and spectators before sinking a penny into the BOA's grandiose plans.
At least Scotland would have the opportunity to found a Scottish organising committee on less imperialist lines and with proper accountability.
Complain about this comment
How can you truest Brown. His agenda is total Britishness.
A GB Team at the Olympics and then Fifa dark army would try to get rid of the 4 home nations and The UK government would make a pathetic attempt to save them.
On another point the Lions is a flawed argument as a it is a touring team and would cease to exist if not invited to any country and B it is the British and Irish Lions , an invitational team only criteria is you must be qualified for either Scotland, Ireland, Wales or Ireland.
Complain about this comment
2012 is two years after the referendum so GB just won't exist by then anyway.
Complain about this comment
What I would like to know if how much this record haul of medals cost, and where the money went.
There must be accounts information available under the freedom of information act.
Come on Brian, lets see the figures.
I bet any money spent on Scots Olympians was dwarfed by the millions spent ensuring that the English got what they wanted.
Complain about this comment
A couple of points not yet mentioned:
1. Those with a slightly longer memory may recall Scotland qualifying for the 1996 Olympics (see the winner of Group 8 at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1996_UEFA_European_Under-21_Football_Championship).
Scotland stepped aside and refused to take up their place at the Olympic finals, because of the risk to the independent status of the Scottish FA. So at least we are consistent, dare I say it, even principled, in our stance.
Somewhat strangely however, I do not recall an equivalent of the current wailing and gnashing of teeth at the idea that Scotland would not be representing GB in Atlanta. Now why would that be...?
2. Sepp Blatter has been inconsistent on the consequences of fielding a GB team. In March he was against:
In contrast in August:
Who knows what the mighty Sepp will decree next month, next year, in 2012? And those within FIFA who stand to gain from a single GB association will not go away.
Complain about this comment
For Pete's sake! Its British and Irish Lions NOT British Lions! We do not have a British rugby union team and do not compete as a single nation in competitions.
Complain about this comment
Seems to me bungler Brown is playing fast and loose with Scotland's football future, all for the sake of fielding one or two under 23s playing for 15 - 20 minutes. Two points spring to mind:
1. When Sep Blater is long gone, who will tell Nigeria, Japan or Chile, that the Olympics in England in 2012 where a GB Football team was fielded were a one off?
2. Is it a one off, seems to me once 2012 creates a precedence, this will happen at every subsequent Olympics.
Bungler Brown, true to form, is applying thumb screws to Alec Ferguson, I hope Alec declines politely. Me Coe and the English sports minister, seem to think that views of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland can just be cast aside. Not very democratic or listening.
I have followed Scotland to world and European cups, it is the only time when we are accepted for who we are in our own right. The friendship between Scottish people and other nations is inspiring, win loose or draw.
It would be brilliant to see this replicate in London with a Scottish Team. If we do not have a Scottish team in London at 2012, then Scottish politicians have failed the Scottish people.
In summary, Bungler Brown should stick to running down his party, his own reputation and leave Scottish sports alone.
Complain about this comment
Football doesn't need the Olympics.
Global Football; Euro Championships; African Cup of Nations; Champions League; Individual National Leagues,cups etc to name but a few. Global football well out performs all the sports in the Olympics combined in both financial terms and viewing figures.
End of.
Complain about this comment
Interesting responses.
The Tartan Army has long been the tourist wing of the SNP (credit to Lt Gen Kenny MacAskill for making it so) and they are well organised in flooding sporting blogs with opposition to a UK team. The SFA takes its lead from them, which is understandable if weak.
In this blog however, with a different readership opposition/support seems almost evenly split, with the usual mix of well informed and half baked justifications on both sides.
From me, no justifications. I feel British. I want a British team at London. I happen to also be Scots, a fact that gives me considerable pleasure. I support any Scots team against any other, then any UK team, then any with HM QEII as head of state then any other Commonwealth team, then USA, then anyone else except France or Pakistan, then alien lizards, then France against Pakistan.
I dont pretend to justify it. nationalism, mines and everyone elses is about gut feelings.
I will support the UK 2012 football team whether it has Scots members in in or not, but I hope it has.
Complain about this comment
I'd personally like to see a play-off between the 4 nations, winner representing GB in Olympics.
It is predictable that the nationalists are going off the deep end with this.
And it's entirely unsurprising that they have totally failed to grasp the point that a GB team would ONLY happen if the 4 national teams were secure.
No-one...NO-ONE wants or intends to lose the existing national teams just for one Olympics team!!
Complain about this comment
Where did all the arch-nationalists come from? This board seems to be flooded with them now. Has word been sent around by SNP HQ?
I also see a lot of them consider independence as inevitable. Can one of them explain how this is so, as I can't find a single indicator to back that up.
Complain about this comment
#89 Cllrsandy
At least get your jingoist facts right. Scotland and the UK have no QEII. England has a QEII while Scotland and the UK have a QEI for the time being.
Complain about this comment
What an earth shattering revelation #82. British PM has a British agenda. What next - Pope admits to Catholic leanings??
I am very proud of what Team GB has achieved in Beijing, as I believe the majority of Scots are. Every one of the medal winners has come across as truly humble, acknowledging the support they have received from their families, loved ones and the government agencies who provided the infrastructure to enable them to achieve their potential. These athletes are in it for the love of their sport, and it is so refreshing to see.
For once, the UK government deserve credit for providing the funding and infrastructure for elite athletes - right back to John Major, who introduced the National Lottery.
However, as for a GB football team - on balance I'm not in favour. I don't believe it should be an Olympic sport. Why should these overpaid, unsporting primadonnas with their love of money and their lack of respect for fellow players and officials, be allowed the Olympic spotlight?
Complain about this comment
If the FAs of Scotland, Wales and NI are so set against it, then just enter England as our GB football team and have done with it. Of course, if they win, they'll never let the rest of us forget it, and rightly so!
I'm happy to see that Chris Hoy and I are on the same wavelength as far as separate Olympics teams are concerned - only Salmond and his pet professional Scotsman, Connery, could think that idea is a goer!
Complain about this comment
#90 Reluctant-Expat
"No-one...NO-ONE wants or intends to lose the existing national teams just for one Olympics team!!"
Says who?
Read this website's Ferguson wanted for GB 2012 role and watch the GBeebies interview with "Duff" Gordon on that page and you'll see and hear nothing from NuLab except desperate politicians trying to save their worthless skins. Certainly there's not a promisory word from The Supreme Leader, just an unjustified attestation that "it's the right thing to do".
Complain about this comment
95. What a ridiculous post!
"GBeebies", "Duff Gordon", "The Supreme Leader"....such arch-nationalist rubbish.
If you are seriously naive and ignorant enough to believe Gordon Brown, the FA and the BOA would actually jeopardise the 4 national teams just for a one-off Olympic team, then you are in trouble.
Complain about this comment
Reluctant Expat
SNP haven't gone of the deep end on this, Gordon Brown has.
And he is sinking.
Having hacked off the English pretty effectively he is now hacking off a significant proportion of his fellow Scots.
His political judgement is sh*te.
Very few Scots consider "British" to be their nationality and very few English.
The time for this concept is passed and diminishes daily. So what?
Gordon Brown?
King Canute hasn't got a look in.
Complain about this comment
All the way back to number #10
"Field an English only GB side and let us not embarrass ourselves."
Not being a football fan in any other than the most base "let's beat the English" fashion, it appears to me that top-line teams in the English league are just that largely thanks to the contributions of imported players who haven't a snowball's chance in hell of playing for *any* UK team.
The fact that premiership teams have next-to-nothing to do with their country of origin ( never mind to do with their actual home towns ) is possibly why professional football is so all-conquering in it's naffness. "Team GB" indeed.
Complain about this comment
#94 GlasgowGooner:
Have a look at the STV news page (http://www.stv.tv/content/news/): "Should there be a Scottish Olympics team?". Currently 73 percent say Yes, to 27 percent saying No. Sean and Eck must be getting RSI I guess ;o)
Complain about this comment
RE: Post #1
Officially we are the United Kingdon of GB and NI - check the front of your passport. NI only joined the Union in 1920, before which we were the United Kingdom of GB and Ireland. Politically, GB refers to England, Scotland and Wales, and has done since 1707. Ireland joined in 1800. Presumably GB was kept as a name since this time. The BOA was formed in 1905 to represent the UK and has done ever since, so if you need a moan about why its team GB and not team UK, then you have to go back a long way.......
Back on the story of the UK/GB soccer team, I'd like to see one, but don't think we will. FIFA are well known to be against the UK having four associations, a position unique in the world where one country (defined as sharing one government and one head of state, before I get a battering from the Scots) has more than one leagure and association.
Currently there is a dichotomy where the BOA and IOC recognise the UK as a single nation, because they go on national political boundaries, whereas FIFA oversee football associations and all of their international competitions are actually inter-association competitions, with each team representing their FA. The big issue here is whether FIFA have the power to turn round to the FAs of England, Wales, Scotland and NI and say that it will no longer recognise them. To do that the associations realistically have to do something against the rules. If a GB football team comes under the governance of the BOA, and as such the national FAs have no direct jurisdiction, then no rules are broken and things continue? Is this true, or am I missing something......
Complain about this comment
Everyone should state their own starting point in this debate. Is it political/emotional or is it sporting?
Some people clearly detest the notion of Team GB, as much as they detest plain GB. No need to over-egg the pudding. We know where you are coming from, and you have a perfect right to your view.
Personally, I'd be uncomfortable watching proud Scotland marching in at London, with fewer, much fewer, than two dozen members (including a football squad) who'd made the qualifying standards through world competition. Followed by 300 from team GB. I have a right to that view. I'm assuming nobody envisages a normal Team GB with an additional Scottish football team?
The sporting issues are slightly more clear cut regarding football.
Is there any merit whatsoever in Olympic football, an under-23 tournament, when the big competitions are the World Cup and European Championsip? Even the Champions League is bigger.
Could Scotland qualify, bearing in mind England woud become host nation?
Would major clubs tolerate the interruption at the start of the home/European season?
We've heard Chris Hoy's view on the nonsense of a separate team, in the sense of money, facilities, medical expertise, etc. This in spite of his patriotism.
Do we really want a scenario in which the Scotland footall team fails to qualify and the remaining handful of hopefuls are condemned to go to London ill-prepared and destined to fail? Gloriously, of course, under the Saltire.
If I had a chance of a medal in 2012, I'd consider two options: move to England, join a club, and try for Team GB. Or I'd chuck it.
I am as patriotic as any Scot. But I'm not a masochistic self-flagellator.
Complain about this comment
Brian,
Not like you to completely miss the point of the question!
The importance of the ‘Home’ Associations is found in the International Football Association Board, which as you know is the body that determines the Laws of the Game of association football. For historical reasons, each of the Home Associations is a member of this board and entitled to cast one vote. FIFA is the other member and is entitled to cast four votes. The board rules require six vote in favour of a change to the Laws of the Game. It doesn’t take too much imagination to see that FIFA would like to ‘own’ the Laws of the Game and would, once the Home Associations concede a UK/GB team, demand a review of the membership and voting rights of the International Football Association Board.
Regards.
Complain about this comment
Question: How do you hyperlink text?
Complain about this comment
#92, Browndove, my fellow British subject.
What is your SNP membership number? Come on now, cards on the table.
Complain about this comment
NCA999.
Just thought I would remind you that this blog is not about Scottish Independence, but about if Britain should enter a GB football team or not in 2012.
Complain about this comment
#96 Reluctant-Expat
Touched a nerve? If you think my #95 or any other post is ridiculous, why not try to counter it with some arguments and references instead of meaningless assertions?
Complain about this comment
How is a Scotland football fan defined? I have been to a number of Scotland matches over the years, cheer when they win and feel mildly disappointed when they lose or grind out a turgid 1-1 draw against Ruritania B. I would be happy enough to see a GB football team. Does my opinion not count unless I follow Scotland all over Europe in an ill fitting polyester kilt, adidas samba and c u jimmy hat, leaving my wife and children to eat beans on toast back home?
The reality is that the majority of players would be English but life goes on. On the positive side, it would give any Scots involved the chance to attend the finals of a major tournament, possibly a one-off in their careers...
Complain about this comment
#92 brownedov
Perhaps you haven't got your facts right either.
Since the Act of Union, the UK monarch has consistently borne the higher of the English and Scottish monarchs' ordinals. This was probably due more to accident than design as, since 1707, there has been no UK monarch whose name has had a higher Scottish than English ordinal.
In 1953 this "practice" was affirmed as being valid in deciding the numbering of all future monarchs' names. This being so, if there were another James, for example, he would be, for the UK, James VIII (as well as VIII of Scotland) but only III of England.
In addition, the present Queen is not, as you say, QEI of Scotland, but only QE. If only one monarch has used that name, no ordinal is used.
Now, back to the thread.
I vote for Thomas Porter's (and Cathy Jamieson's) proposal for a British Home Championship to decide which of the four teams represents the UK, until that is, we see a Team Scotland, Team England and Team Wales at the Olympics
Complain about this comment
If Gordon Brown wants to do something constructive with international football -
How about getting Scottish international games shown on main stream TV, as I a sick of paying my licence fee only to fund England games to be shown in Scotland.
Complain about this comment
#103 Expat
With thanks to Brownedov and Ed Iglehart, you'll find the instructions here
Complain about this comment
#100 Rich_Owl
As you'll see from my #55, I was looking for documentary evidence over an apparent question over the boundaries of the BOA and IOA, and whether there is overlap. Neither of their websites deals with this.
Assertion ain't evidence.
Anyone got the answer?
Complain about this comment
PS to my #106
By the way, why should either the English FA or British Olympic Association care about the other 3 "home" countries and in what way have they shown that concern?
As previously stated, "Duff" Gordon's Britishness is to try to save his skin. See Michael Crick's Gazza goal not favourite for another recent example.
The BOA obviously wants a British football team because it hopes to retain its commercial monopoly position and hopes to stifle separate Olympic movements for the 4 "home" countries.
As it happens, I'm a federalist not a nationalist, but the protestations of arch-unionists like yourself are certainly driving me to changing my views.
Complain about this comment
#103 Reluctant-Expat
"Question: How do you hyperlink text?"
See my #75 on the New ways into blogs thread.
Complain about this comment
Nationalist fever, what "HYPROCRIISY" the likes of oldnat, Brownedov and co, would gadly surrender the National Scottish team to a greater EU team, however the thought of anything to do with England narrowly becomes taboo.
----
Complain about this comment
#104 Cllrsandy
British citizen not subject according to my EU / UKGB&NI passport. I'm not currently a member of any political party, though I have been thinking of rejoining the Liberal Party.
Complain about this comment
To address some of the points made earlier:
For a start Scotland subsidises England. We do not live off English largesse. We shouldn't have to endure this canard fromany poster from wherever they are from.
Chris Hoy has every right to criticise Scottish sporting facilities or lack thereof. However, is this the Union dividend we keep hearing about from Unionists: our great sporting facilities? The fact is that this is directly a consequence of Scotland not having the finances and indeed the financial control to build these facilities. You see we let down our athletes as well by not being independent. That's the plain and simple truth.
As for a football TeamGB. I would have been in favour of it but not anymore. Scotland shouldn't risk losing international status with UEFA and FIFA no matter the assurances. Furthermore the ignorant abuse we have received for our misgivings on this and all this talk of 'English domination anyway' and how risible they believe our contribution would be anyway lets me think the SFA were completely right to begin with.
I hope we field a Team Scotland by 2012 or 2016 at the very latest. I think we would as ever do well for our size but more importantly putting Scotland properly on the international stage and competing as an independent would be a wonderful thing.
Complain about this comment
#114 derekbarker
Personal preference has nothing to do with it. This thread exists purely because of the political posturing of a PM in terminal decline and has nothing to do with sport per se.
After the stupidity and greed shown by the IOC in giving the games to the PRC, I would personally prefer the Olympics to return permanently to Greece and revert to their amateur ideals, but I recognise that is unlikely to happen so long as sponsors see a fast buck in the current set-up.
Complain about this comment
99. That is an online poll which, as usual, will be spoiled by you arch-nats voting multiple times.
You know it and we know it.
Complain about this comment
Every 4 years, have a U-23 Home International Championship that really means something, as there'd be a place in the Olympic tournament at stake.
Bring it on!
Complain about this comment
116. The old arch-nat classic of "Scotland subsidising England".
Again, we both know that is not true. Even Salmond no longer preaches that little porker!
He has also noticably stopped complaining that Scotland does not receive its full share of oil revenues after it was confirmed that it does.
You arch-nats should really stop making things up.
Now BACK TO THE TEAM GB FOOTBALL SQUAD.
Complain about this comment
#108 wheredowegofromhere
"In 1953 this "practice" was affirmed as being valid in deciding the numbering of all future monarchs' names."
By whom? Please quote your reference source.
What happened between the '52 accession and the '53 affirmation?
Complain about this comment
The housing market is in free-fall, hundreds of thousands of people face negative equity, the economy is collapsing, unemployment is rising, our soldiers are dying in Afghanistan and Iraq as we fight (and pay for) two unwinnable wars, tax revenues are falling and Governemnt expenditure rising, food and fuel prices are rocketing and families are suffering. Meanwhile, the Labour Pary is falling apart, so what is Gordon Brown's top priority?
Yes...distract attention from all the mayhem he has aleady created, and discuss the creation of a new multi-national GB football team that nobody wants or has any loyalty to...knowing full well that the result could be the destruction of the UK's four national teams.
Thank goodness he won't be PM in 2012.
Complain about this comment
How many times do the arch-nats need to be told that NO-ONE intends to risk the 4 national teams?
A Team GB football team will only be enetered if the continued independence of the home nations teams is guaranteed.
Try and get this to sink in.
Complain about this comment
Easy solution, 4 teams, Scotland, NI, Wales and England have a play off, winner becomes team GB. I'm not for Team GB but this would resolve it all. Failing that let all 4 teams compete. The final will only be in Wemberlee again anyway......
Complain about this comment
The key issue on Team GB football side is one of trust.
Who trusts Gordon Brown on this issue?
No one!
Who trusts the IOC on this issue?
No One!
Who trusts FIFA on this issue?
No one!
Who trusts the English FA on this issue?
No one
All four would happily sell Scottish football down the River Clyde.
Complain about this comment
As we seem to have so many NuLab lovers on this thread, would any of you be able to give us some clues about when a NuLab candidate for Glenrothes is going to be selected. The SNP sorted theirs out some time ago, and now the Grauniad tell us the Lib Dems announce Glenrothes byelection candidate in one Harry Wills. As you seem to be "on message" what's the current NuLab feeling on dates?
Complain about this comment
Brownedov
The only one getting personal here is you.
Look at your post #117
Come back and tell me; thats not a personal attack on a PM you dont like.
The thread is, do you or do you not like the idea of a GB football team for the 2012 olympics.
Complain about this comment
125. Oh, for crying out loud.
Grow up.
What is this all about a "conspiracy to destroy Scotland"? Don't be so childish.
Although, I can now understand why the SNP wants 16 year olds to have the vote!
Complain about this comment
I have read many comments, usually by Scots people, suggesting English people would be happier supporting an English only team.
Well I'm English and no, I wouldn't be.
I am proud to be British. I do not think of Great Britain as an extended or greater England, it is a union of all nations on this island.
It saddens me to hear Scottish politicians laud the Scottish athletes at the recent games but fail to mention the achievements of the rest of the team. Please tell me this is not how the majority of Scots and Welsh people think (I'm leaving out NI as they can choose to be British or Irish).
I know many Scottish and Welsh people and have spent many happy holidays staying with friends in Scotland. However I have noticed a change recently, earlier this year I was physically and verbally abused in Scotland purely for being English and daring to walk down a Scottish street! It was sickening and I can't imagine a similar incident south of the border, everybody in England knows at least 1 Scots man or woman living here and it just seems the most normal thing in the world.
I hope the Scots see through Alex Salmond his blinkered views and constant sniping at the English and don't vote for independence. I believe we are stronger united and should celebrate our differences and our shared history and culture. I can imagine if Alex Salmond had been around 70 years ago calling on Scotland to remain neutral as it was an English war.
Let me assure Scots that living as I do in Northern England, Westminster and the South East seem just as remote to me but I don't want an English parliament, the last thing ANY of us need is MORE politicians. Long may the union of our great nations last.
Complain about this comment
#118 Reluctant-Expat:
Impossible to quantify without the help of the STV web bods (and even they probably wouldn't be able to help), but you raise an interesting point. Are SNP followers the only ones either capable or interested enough to "monopolise" the online world?
If so why do you think this is the case? Are SNP supporters generally younger and more web-savvy? Are they richer with better access to the internet? Are they mobilised or just more committed to "the cause"? This very blog has been accused of being an SNP love in recently, although this thread has seen a return of some dissenting voices.
In any case, the political battleground is increasingly online. If the other parties aren't aware of that then they need to wake up sharpish. One of the reasons Obama triumphed over Clinton was that he had a much slicker online presence.
PS "you arch-nats"? Flattery will get you everywhere ;o)
Complain about this comment
#123 Reluctant-Expat
If it's guaranteed, that's fine.
Who is giving this guarantee and to whom?
This is not your average blog; we do like to have the facts upon which to argue.
Complain about this comment
#118 Reluctant-Expat
What evidence do you have that it is not arch-unionists voting numerous time to make their numbers look respectable?
#120 & #123 Reluctant-Expat
No evidence to support your assertions?
Complain about this comment
Reluctant Expat, are you really so naive? no-one with any knowledge of football and the workings of FIFA would trust Sepp Blatter's word one jot. the man would sell his granny for an ounce of power.
there have been in the past, and will be again, moves afoot to lessen the powers of the 4 UK nations. why? it's quite simple. if there was a GB team there would be more space at the World Cup for other nations, and they'd have more chance of getting a hold of the real power, i.e seats on IFAB.
Complain about this comment
#122 SuperJulianR
Amen
Complain about this comment
Anyone interested in some interesting snippets about the modern Olympics, politics and competing identities from its earliest days may like to take a look at [Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]
Complain about this comment
#127 derekbarker
Of course the issue was raised by "Duff" Gordon personally. SuperJulianR's excellent #122 says it all, really. Wish I written it myself.
Complain about this comment
#99 - them and the rabid SNP-supporting cabal who make these pages so amusing to read! ;-)
Complain about this comment
#114, derekbarker - Hypocrisy, supporting an EU team? Scotland is a member of two supra-national unions, the United Kingdom and the European Union. If Scotland is deemed to be too small (it is, after all, only exactly average size for an independent nation) to have its own national team, surely the logic is that we should join a team from the larger of those two unions?
#101, brigadierjohn - I am a committee member (and used to be chair) of a sporting club which has sent members to represent Scotland at the Commonwealth Games. I hope we will again - I hope we'll send members to the Olympics.
I am a nationalist, but not for sporting reasons. The idea that we might have a 'Scottish' team at the Olympics without being independent seems to me daft. I'll support our athletes whatever the name of the team (although 'United Kingdom' or even 'Great Britian' would be better than the awful 'Team GB').
I think, as a nation, we need to support our athletes - at every level - better. The present state of public sporting facilities in Scotland must be the worst it has been for one hundred years. I believe independence would help with that.
But the reasons for choosing independence are not sporting. They're partly emotional; but they're mainly geopolitical.
Complain about this comment
#121 Brownedov
The info was gleaned from two wikipedia pages:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_elizabeth_ii#Scottish_controversy
and:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_regnal_numerals_of_future_British_monarchs
See also the footnote 1 to this second page.
In my opinion, the lapse of time between accession and affirmation of the practice was due to the need to find an explanation to justify QEII's wish to continue to be known as QEII of the UK after protests from Scotland. The solution was convenient and had the advantage of being factually correct, but passes the buck to a future monarch.
It remains to be seen, though, what the English would say about having a James VIII of the UK. But as the monarch, like the pope, can chose the name to adopt, perhaps the problem will never arise.
Complain about this comment
forfar-loon #130
Your standards are slipping
"Are they richer with better access to the internet?"
Wow!Is that a statement of intent.
Are all arch - nats suspicious by nature?
....
Complain about this comment
133. Blatter doesn't decide matters like this, it is down to the members.
If there can be some agreement drawn up to allow even a one-off British team for our own Olympics, then it should happen.
If no such agreement is forthcoming, no football fan would want to see their national team be disbanded.
Complain about this comment
A football team would be great because those of us who love the Olympics can have another interest. The Tartan Army can keep supporting Scotland then let the rest of us support team GB every 4 years.
Complain about this comment
#109- that's the fault of the SFA who sold the rights to Scotland games to Sky....
Complain about this comment
#130 forfar-loon
I'd agree with derekbarker for once that it's often more of a NuLab hate-in, but otherwise agree with every word you write.
Complain about this comment
141. Blatter and his pals who head the other confederations control issues by handing out FIFA money to countries that do their bidding. if you think otherwise, you're not just naive but positively stupid.
look for a book called Goal by Andrew Jennings. he exposes corruption right at the heart of FIFA. he did a similar job on the IoC as well but i cannot remember what thats called.
Complain about this comment
140. With this claimed "global conspiracy" to wipe Scotland off the map, wouldn't you be suspicious?!
These kids are weird!
Complain about this comment
#138
Yes Simon, Scotland is a member of the Uk, and does have an element of membership with the EU.
The act of the union has been there since 1707.
Simon no is asking Scotland to give up its national football team,its a separate proposal for a one off olympic games,to held within the UK.As far as numbers in terms of players goes, well! that could be a simple case of division.......by numbers...
Complain about this comment
I'm so thoroughly bemused by a unionists mutterings of 'Nat control of forums'.
Yet at the same time decrying that 'not everything is a conspiracy against Scotland'.
Who's wearing the tinfoil hats now? :)
(apart from ranting Derek, but that much is obvious)
Complain about this comment
"Should there be a team GB or not" is not the issue. "Should overweight politicians like Salmond use the oylimpics as a political football when they couldn't walk up the Royal Mile in Edinburgh without passing out" should be the question. Salmond's and his 'sport' minister's comments are purely political reaction at the success of Team GB.
The olympics success including Chris Hoy's is obviously a great dissapointment to the natioanlist horde so they kick up a furore. Their views are not those of the Scottish olympic participants. How bitterly disapointed are they are.
Complain about this comment
We are witnessing is the birth of '90 minute Unionism', where the only definition of Britishness that remains is the one made in the context of sport.
On that basis alone that represents another O.G. for Unionism in Scotland.
Complain about this comment
148. I notice that the pride and joy of the SNP that is the 'National Conversation' has closed down having only attracted a few thousand posts in the past year. Brian Taylor's blogs attract as many posts every fortnight!
It's a shame you lot didn't spend more time supporting your party's own efforts instead of spreading yourselves thin covering any and every site that even hinted at nationalism.
Complain about this comment
#139 wheredowegofromhere
Thanks for the references. Unfortunately Hansard is to date only online back to 1988 so I cannot confirm the "affirmation" cited, but it does sound the sort of thing the Churchill government would have done, and is presumably just as undoable as any other statement or law coming from Westmidden.
The legal case cited I had not heard of and note its citation in the Lords Hansard text for 27 Apr 1999. It strikes me as rather woolly and something to be clarified one way or the other in the next Scottish Constitutional Convention, assuming that results in the retention of a monarchy.
Complain about this comment
Why stop at a Scottish team? Why not an Edinburgh and a Glasgow team? Why not 2 Glasgow teams? Now there's a thought.
Complain about this comment
It really is a shame that all the unionists can claim is that the union dividend provides gold medals for Scottish athletes.
It certainly doesn't provide police pensions or competent unionist government!
Complain about this comment
Lets look at the positives of a team GB for the 2012 olympic football tournament.
Imagine the following scenario:
The UK Government somehow manages to inflict a British football team upon us.
Dark forces within FIFA successfully turn this into a ruling against the admission of a seperate Scottish football team for the World Cup and European Championship.
Support for independence in Scotland soars as it becomes the only way to regain a distinct sporting identity.
A massive own goal for unionism. Independence for Scotland.
Every cloud has a silver lining.
Complain about this comment
#149 amicusalba
Wow, and there was silly me thinking that "Duff" Gordon had kicked the "political football" off the spot, as Brian's witty "GB backs Team GB at footy" above suggests.
That was a statesmanlike and honourably unpolitical gesture of sportsmanship, I suppose, whereas the FM's response was grubby political posturing and partisanship.
Can you not come up with something more convincing?
Complain about this comment
Surely the solution to there being a GB team at the next Olympics is simple and everyone is just missing the obvious:
Have a qualifying tournament with all current countries (England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland) !
Why not call it ............ the Home Internationals and play on a home and away basis over 2 seasons before the 2012 Olympics
Then the overal winner represents GB in GB colours and the solution for the following Olympics already is in place.
This then enables each country not to "risk" the wrath of FIFA enforsing a GB team to replace all the national teams in GB
Easy, what is the problem ?
Complain about this comment
154, 155 and 156. It looks like the "arch-nat down, assistance required!" cry has gone out.
Relevance, maturity, realism and basic fact are about to bite the dust.
Complain about this comment
p.s you will all be interested to know that SNP tactical voting blog has called the Lib dem leadership vote.
Complain about this comment
#151 Reluctant-Expat
I didn't know what you were talking about - "SNP National Conversation" - so I googled it and it is still going.
Please do not insult our inteligence by posting untruths
Complain about this comment
157. That's actually been suggested and supported by most of us.
The only dissenters are the few Scottish nationalists who will always be anti-anything to do with GB, who can only offer bizarre accusations about "global conspiracies to destroy Scotland!" and old chestnuts like "Scotland subsidises the whole of the UK!".
Bless 'em.
Anyway, I personally think it's a superb idea that will give all our under-23s a real prize to shoot for.
I wonder if it will be seriously considered by the powers-that-be?....
Complain about this comment
160. Look closer......closer......clo.....ser.....Too close!
Ah, for crying out loud, every blog has been shut down with this message: "This blog is now closed to further comment."
Complain about this comment
Those who want politicians to stay out of the debate, don't understand the origin and purpose of the modern Olympiad.
From the beginning, governments were heavily involved. The Swedes invented the "state amateur" by calling up their best athletes into the army for the 1912 games. Finland was an original team, but that was soon crushed by the Russian Empire.When Coubertin started it, he saw it as a substitute for war, an intensely nationalistic competition - hence the national medal table.
Brown and Salmond are simply continuing the pattern of political leaders for the last 100 years.
Complain about this comment
Never mind Tavish Scott - new DumLed leader will sort it all out!
Complain about this comment
160. Just totted up the number of comments on the 'Nat Con' and it's not even 1% of the population.
Cancel that, it's not even 0.1% of the population! Talk about a lack of interest!
Complain about this comment
I go away for an hour and yet I come back to find people drifting off topic.
This topic is about a GB football for 2010, NOT Scottish Independence or even Alex Salmond.
Can people quit their little personal agenda and get back to the real discussions? There is not even Unionist or Nationalists within this discussion. It's a personal choice if we should have a home team or not.
Complain about this comment
Tavish Scott - 1,450 (59%)
Ross Finnie - 568 (21.3%)
Mike Rumbles - 439 (17.9%)
Member turnout - 61%
Interesting that 40% of committed party members couldn't be bothered to take part in a postal ballot.
Or may be the DumLeds don't actually have 4,000 members?
Complain about this comment
#158 Reluctant-Expat
Still no facts to support your crazy assertions. Are you derekbarker trying another tack?
#161 Reluctant-Expat
"That's actually been suggested and supported by most of us."
So you're a Jamiesonite rather than a Brownite on this, then?
This website's Salmond rejects UK football team states: "Acting Scottish Labour leader Cathy Jamieson has set out an alternative to the prime minister's plan. She has suggested a home nations play-off, with the winner going forward to play as the British team."
Or are you saying that's what Brown wanted all along and that the GBeebies misrepresent him?
Complain about this comment
Gordon Broon is seriously outta touch on this issue (he's so popular in every other sense...).
He says "everybody" wants to see a GB football team. Everybody, that is, except the Scottish F.A., Welsh F.A. and Northern Irish F.A. (not to mention the majority of the population of the UK) - so that just leaves 'The F.A.' (I've no problem with calling the English F.A. by their proper name, since it was the first in the world).
So, if only one of 'our' four countries supports the proposal, that's hardly everybody, is it? Brown is more worried about what other people might think if there's no GB football team at London 2012. Let these people learn and accept the facts - there are four separate international football teams in the UK. It's not that hard a concept to grasp. It's already universally accepted. Why not fight for those four teams to take part in 2012? Worried about GB's future Olympic status if we go down this road? (Okay, that was a trap - hence the fuss/worry about Scotland/Wales/N. Ireland's future FIFA status if football team GB goes ahead...)
Let the government FORCE us to have a GB football team - THAT, my friends, is the epitome of Britishness.
Complain about this comment
I see a lot of talk about federations and confederations on the 'Nat Con', I wonder if the SNP will take such viewpoints on board?
Or will they will just continue regardless with their pursuit of outright independence?
Tough one. Too close to call perhaps.
Complain about this comment
#161 Reluctant-Expat
Further to my #168, I note that even the arch-unionist Daily Record draws a distinction between Ms Jamieson and "Duff" Gordon it its Let Scotland team represent Britain at London Olympics, says Cathy Jamieson. Note that it states: "But Brown does not see it that way and has held secret talks aimed at setting up an all-British team."
Who do you back?
Complain about this comment
169. How do you know the "majority of the population of the UK" are against a GB football team?
Where did you get that from?
We obviously can't enter four football teams into the Olympics just as we can't enter multiple relay, rowing, cycling (and so on) teams.
Complain about this comment
This comment has been referred to the moderators. Explain.
#170 Expat
Welcome to the Conversation! The whole pont is that people argue for their preferred outcome. It's called politics.
Complain about this comment
#166 Thomas_Porter
There's a 606 blog at Ferguson wanted for 2012 role for discussion of any sporting aspects of this spat. This thread is from BBC Scotland's political editor and should be about the political aspects of it.
#167 oldnat
Thanks for the info. Depressing for the cause of federalism and no change likely in the depressingly feeble opposition to the SNP at Holyrood, given that all 3 NuLab candidates seem equally feeble at that game, although to be fair Jamieson has at least shown some spirit over this. Full details are now on this website's Scott elected new Lib Dem leader. Let's hope Brian starts a new thread on it soon, not that it'll be a long one.
Complain about this comment
#166 - that's where you're wrong. Between now and whenever we finally get this referendum, everything will be a matter of for and/or against breaking up the Union.
However, as the Union is the status quo, I am of the view that it is up to the Nats and thier supporters to prove to me that breaking it up is a good thing. So far, their vision of a New Brigadoon existing on limitless oil money has not quite done the job.
As for the Scottish football team, I haven't attended a game since I had to explain to my puzzled 10-year old nephew, why a proportion of the adult 'men' at the match I took him too were insisting that Celtic fans and players are not Scottish, and should go back to Ireland. That was a difficult one. So, we took their advice and left, and haven't been back to see the 'national' team.
Perhaps, on reflection, it would be better not to have that particular Scottish outlook inflicted on the Olympics?
Complain about this comment
174. Lawks, I've got no interest in wasting my time on an SNP propaganda jobbie, man!
Anyway, as I already said, it's been closed down. I think the gerbil died of boredom.
Complain about this comment
#138 Simon_Brooke: Congratulations on being involved with a club. It gives your comments context and authority. I disagree with you politically, but I don't think I have argued against anything in your post.
This issue has brought out the worst in us, the Scots. Comments have ranged from cheap and childish to ignorant and nasty.
Why, for example, must posters use silly descriptions - Westmidden, Duff Gordon, arch-Nats, etc? It's in very poor taste and reeks of insecurity about the point being attempted.
Are people so paranoid as to believe an insult adds weight to their reasoning?
Or perhaps they have nothing worth saying, so just hurl an insult? Just say what you mean and let it stand or fall on its merits.
Surely we can lift the level of debate above that of Holyrood?
Complain about this comment
#151 Reluctant-Expat
I've had a look at your National Conversation. It seems to be a government thing about the procedures for getting independence. I couldn't see anything relevant to an Olympic football team. Even if it had closed down, what was your purpose in bringing it into the blog?
Complain about this comment
#173 minuend
LOL and sad but true. Little chance that Scott will be arguing for a multi-choice referendum. The LibDems could even be silly enough to vote against having a referendum at all and face total wipeout in 2011, which would be good for the SNP but bad for democracy.
Complain about this comment
#176
Go out yourself to discover the benefits of Scottish Independence. Whatever the Nats say we say it because we are Nationalists but then the Unionists will support the Union at whatever the cost.
Independence or supporting the Union is a personal choice that you should discover yourself. We all are support or are against the Union for different reasons, why do you expect anyone to persuade you to their 'side'?
Why do you belive the Union is the best thing for Scotland?
Complain about this comment
As there is no answer to my #179, I surmise that Reluctant-Expat is one of these viral marketing ploys to get us to visit the National Conversation site. If so, I wouldn't bother; it's pretty boring
Complain about this comment
#181 Thomas: Hi Thomas. Glad to see you are back and well, none the worse for taking The Queen's Shilling.
Thomas, you must "persuade" us. The Union is a fact, the status quo, it's what we have, warts and all.
Some people rejoice in it, love to goose-step around under the Union Flag, sing Land of Hope and Glory, etc. Others are moderate.
As you know, I'm a pragmatist. Show me something better and I'll vote for it. So far, I've seen nothing better. Remember Thomas, it's my eyes looking, not yours or Alex Salmond's.
I don't know if the Union is, or will always be, "best" for Scotland. I know that I see nothing better. Certainly nothing on offer that justifies the cost and bureaucracy of separation.
But the people who want change have to make the case for it. Supporters of the Union, active or acquiescent, need do nothing but say "No, thank you."
Complain about this comment
#181 Perhaps I phrased that badly. I have seen no proof from the Nats so far that independence would be better than the Union. I doubt that my part of Scotland would fare any better under King Alex than they have under the Union - every thing he does seems to be for the benefit of his own bailliewick in the North East. Undoing centuries of British institutions (eg civil service, passports, military) here would cost us a fortune.
And without benefits, why would I choose to disturb the status quo?
Complain about this comment
Chris Hoy.
You are even more a hero to me after your latest rebuke to El Presidente, Salmond's bandstanding on the success of Team GB!
Well done. Unless he is prepared to cough up and provide the sporting infrastructure for Scotland; his petty point scoring using sporting nationalism is as welcome as a thistle down the trouser leg!
Complain about this comment
It always amazes me of thise amongst us who require convincing that independence is the right way foward. Primarily talking politics and this and that and numbers.
It's in your blood, perhaps you should listen to your heart and make your own conclusion.
After all I live under the guise that regardless of what happens everything will be alright, independence or no :)
Complain about this comment
We seem in a bit of a fankle here, surely the issue is very simple
We live in Great Britain. We are British. At the Olympics I hope we were all proud of the achievements of our comptitors, I certainly was.
A British football team for the olympics makes sense if we are compting as Britain at every other event.
The British Lions work without any hassle, participation is valued and honoured by those selected.
I wish politicans would stop trying to spin everything to fit there agendas. Sport and politics should be seperate.
there is another angle on this, why is football contested at the Olympics at all? An olympic gold will never be the pinnacle of a footballers career, it will always be the world cup.
Also I agree with BrigadierJohn, some of the language used here debases the agruments trying to be made.
Complain about this comment
#184
I am very confident that after Independence the country will slowly be transformed. The Scottish Gov will do their best to ensure that they remain popular, and in power. There choices will reflect the Scottish people, not the London Government. Our interests will be taken first and will never come second again.
To be quite fair the military has cost the United Kingdom far more then what it would cost to be Independent. In fact, the military are using missles that you could now spend to buy a little two-bedroom house.
#183.
Hello there, John. To be honest the Unionists still have to play a role and defend the Union. David Cameron and the Conservatives have spoken about reform of many aspects of how we run our country. Alex Salmond and the Nationalists are offering similar change that will completely change the way our country is run. Labour? Well Labour are offering nothing and are expected to be wiped out by the next elections. So, pick a side John, we have the Nationalists who are Pro-Independent in one corner and the Tories in the other corner who are prepared to change the rules of the game.
The Nationalists will always gain no matter what happens in the near future.
Complain about this comment
188. An arch-nationalist who has joined the British Army.
Need I say more?
Complain about this comment
#189.
You would be surpised about the number of Scots Nats in the British Army.
Complain about this comment
189 A Expat who deems himself so important as to comment on Scottish politics.
Need I say more?
Glass houses and stones.
Complain about this comment
190/191.
Need I say more?
Complain about this comment
#189 Reluctant-Expat
Like the hundreds of Irish from the South; yes tell us more and how your British Army would cope without them with special emphasis on the shortage of manpower in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Complain about this comment
handclapping
The slippery handclapper.
What have you done today,to make your self feel proud.
Answers on "THE NATIONAL CONVERSATION SITE"
0.0000001 Humdrum.......................
Complain about this comment
#193.
Don't forget about those apart of the Common Wealth. There are thousands from different parts of the world who are apart of the British Army.
Complain about this comment
#188 Thomas: Have you watched the football transfers? All brinkmanship and bluster, until at the last minute - by a miracle - hands are shaken and all goes well.
Salmond and Cameron? Just you watch. The unbridgable gap, the unthinkable agreement. Suddenly it's pragmatic self-interest "for the good of the people."
I expect the SNP to have a big overall majority at Holyrood, a very decent showing in a General Election, and, sadly for you Thomas, a loss in the referendum.
Salmond and Cameron will have to kiss and make up. After a very public spat to satisfy their own supporters that nothing was given away.
Now, about that football team. In National Service days, the British Army had a brilliant team. Jim Baxter, John White were in there with the top English players. Maybe you could suggest it to the CO? Tell him you were speaking to a Brigadier.
Complain about this comment
Do the arch- nats really want to talk about an Independent armed force for Scotland.................
Laugh........Bring it on
Complain about this comment
#194 resident troll
gotcha!
Complain about this comment
What have Irish and Commonwealth citizens in the British Army got to do with the duplicity of Scottish nationalists who are fanatically anti-Brit, yet are most happy to join the British Army?
Complain about this comment
#196
Cameron will seek the support of the Nationalists before changing the rules of the game. Cameron has not ruled out cooperating with the Nationalists unlike our dear Prime Minister. In return for ensuring that the Tory plans are welcomed in Scotland what do you think Salmond will receive in return? Better treatment? more money? There will certainly be winners and losers from the changes and the Nats will want to be put in a stronger postion from the changes.
The list is endless and are you confident that this will not ensure an 'Independence Victory' by 2010? I could be wrong and the future may not work in the way I imagine it, but the Nationalists are appearing to gain all the time.
Complain about this comment
Hungclapping
Silly......Silly......Silly......Silly,,,,,BOY
Complain about this comment
#178 brigadierjohn &
#187 northhighlander
As you are both clearly conservatives (with a small "c" if not a capital one, perhaps) in that you wish to retain the political status quo in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland until and unless you perceive a better alternative, I am surprised that you do not also revel in the history of invective which has been a tradition both at the hustings for and within the "mother of parliaments", lodged currently in the Palace of Westminster, since long before the Act of Union and the quasi-democratic plurality electoral system used to choose its denizens at irregular intervals chosen by the leader of the party "in power". Obviously I could refer to the "gentleman" who currently occupies free housing at No.10 Downing Street, London SW1 as the elected (in a manner less democratic than Robert Mugabe - Zimbabweans were at least offered the satisfaction of spoiling their ballot papers) "leader" of the Labour Party and "Prime" (that was originally an insult!) Minister, The Right Honourable James Gordon Brown, Member of Parliament for Kirkcaldy & Cowdenbeath.
Were I to do so, most people would have nodded off before I had got into my point.
Describing it as Westmidden and him as "Duff" Gordon uses many fewer recycled electrons yet leaves no doubt to what and whom I refer.
Complain about this comment
#199.
Technically the RoI and the Commom Wealth countries are not British but are apart of the British Army if they choose. A Scottish Nationalist can quite easily be apart of the Army, especailly since we have no military of our own. I am British afterall?
Complain about this comment
#200 Thomas: Whatever the outcome of 2010, it won't be an "independence victory." It will be a go-ahead for talks. Then the practicalities, I should say the impracticalities, of separation will hit everyone between the eyes. You can bet stuff nobody has dreamed of yet will come pouring out of the cupboard.
I don't think anything is a foregone conclusion. But a lot of people here are counting chickens already. Wait for the eggs to be laid, please.
Complain about this comment
#202 Brownedov: See? You can be sensible if you try, even in sarcasm. We can all use descriptions that leave the recipients in no doubt as to the target. But "the PM" and "Westminster" require no pejorative introduction.
Unparliamentary language has its place, but hits the mark only when used sparingly and incisively. Overuse is just abuse.
Complain about this comment
#204 brigadierjohn
A fair point but equally don't underestimate the will of Cameron's Tories to cling on to the quasi-democratic 1872 plurality voting system which is guaranteed to give them a majority of English seats for the next 20+ years - perhaps more if NuLab implode as they seem to be doing.
Semi-permanent power or ditch Scotland?
We all may yet find that the Conservative & Unionist Party isn't quite so keen on the union after all.
Complain about this comment
#205 brigadierjohn
No - I don't see at all. The replacements you suggest are neutral and imply neither disgust nor disdain. There are some threads and individual posts where I have used them in specific contexts.
Neither Midden (wherever located compass-wise) nor Duff (Homer Simpson's favourite beer as well as the RMS Titanic's famous survivor and an epithet for poor quality) have been declared unparliamentary to the best of my knowledge. If you disagree, please cite a source.
As this thread is all about the pro-Britishness posturing of a desperate man, neutral terms are inappropriate.
Complain about this comment
#204 Brigadier
I think 2011/12 is the most likely time for the talks which will take place between Salmond and Cameron - assuming that
1. the Tories win in 2010
2. there is no referendum in 2010 or there is one and the Yes vote is reasonably high
3. the SNP/Greens improve their representation at Holyrood in 2011.
If present trends continue, one might anticipate a Catalan-like status for Scotland to emerge.
Tories (other than Thatcherites) tend to be fairly pragmatic as to outcomes, as long as their "core interests" are protected.
England (and many Scots) still have some affection for the British concept, but some form of union would probably suffice.
It's notable that the "Britishness" argument is most strongly articulated by Brown. While Socialists will argue their case in any political structure, NuLab loses the last reason for their existence without the concept of a centralist British state.
Complain about this comment
I'm really growing tired of Salmond and his relentless nationalistic rubbish.
As a student who takes pride in his national on both a Scottish and ultimately British basis its really irritating when in the midst of rare national unity ( in regards to the olympics) you have this "leader" harping on using the olympic success as propaganda for his independent manifesto. I wonder if he would have used the same material regardless of what was going in Beijing ( does he know there's other countries after the border??).
All it seems to show that regardless of the situation all we have suceeded in doing is creating our own shorter, fatter but equally single-minded version of Bush.
I don't claim to know the answer to the GB football team debate and haven't heard any suitable suggestions but personally i would welcome the team ( if only to see Craig Gordon recognized for the keeper he is)
Complain about this comment
New thread on the LDs guys.
Complain about this comment
#208 oldnat
A good post, although Catalonia was perhaps not the best example to pick. The Spanish state gives a little ground each year but the Catalans are still determined to separate, and will probably achieve their goals in the next decade or so.
A major difference from Scotland is that the Catalan language is the first language of most Catalans on both sides of the Franco / Spanish border. It is still less tolerated by the French authorities than the Basque language and was formally outlawed in Spain under Franco's rebels and was only preserved in Andorra, where it is still the first language.
Complain about this comment
#209.
Salmond is not involved in this debate. Gordon Brown decided to request that there should be a GB Football Team for 2012. Others, including the SFA and Salmond (his right to an opinion) decided to speak out against the idea.
Your anti-Salmond stance is blinding you from the real facts that this has started because of Brown and the SFA etc etc
Complain about this comment
#209 magnaPeap
And the "leader" at the Olympics on a freebie wasn't spouting propaganda for his unionist manifesto in his GBeebies interview?
He might have earned himself a little credibility if he had been outspoken about the PRC's unspeakable human rights record when face to face with their leadership but that might have caused him personal embarrassment. On a par with Chamberlain (N) for gutlessness, I'd say.
Complain about this comment
#207 Brownedov:
I meant "unparliamentary" in the colloquial sense, as you must realise since this blog is not Parliament. But please, you feel free to express your disgust and disdain in the manner of your choice. I will feel free to consider your argument diminished by overuse of silly language which in fact evinces neither sentiment.
#208 oldnat: Interesting thoughts. Would Cameron willingly be the man who "lost" Scotland. I think he will offer Scotland a very fair deal. His reasoning, aided by Annabelle, will be that Scots with a feelgood factor will quickly ditch their protest votes for the SNP.
The problem then, barring an unlikely Tory upsurge in Scotland, would be a Labour revival threatening his majority. Depends on the size of his majority.
However, I suspect much water has to run under many bridges before anyone's true strategy emerges.
Complain about this comment
#120
Nonsense. Salmond has not backed down from the position that Scotland subsidies England. And Scotland does. If we didn't we would have a 4.4 billion surplus this year and are on course for an 8 billion surplus this year. Just think how many velodromes we could have if we were in receipt of our resources.
Complain about this comment
I agree with a previous post: this blog isn't really about a TeamGB Olympic football team, it's a political issue about Scottish Independence.
As far as that issue is concerned, I want to commend posts 129 and 209. Unlike many of the posts on this blog, they are eloquent and restrained. They also echo my own view that the break up of the United Kingdom would be deeply tragic (and not because of any financial loss (or otherwise) to the English tax-payer).
Whatever the nationalists nay-sayers (English, Scottish or Welsh) might say, the UK is a truly remarkable nation, which has had a disproportionate influence on world history. I am emotionally very attached to it, and would be deeply upset if we went our separate ways.
Sport can be both unifying and divisive. In my view the Home Nations competing separately in Euro or World cup tournaments always acts as a source of division between the Home Nations. So I welcome a TeamGB Olympic squad. It would prove (hopefully!) that unity is better than division.
Complain about this comment
bluelaw
Is that a gross or net surplus????
Are you advocating the status quo of high energy costs??
Evidence, my dear boy, evidence...
Complain about this comment
Lol. The new disengenuous Unionist way of atempting to thwart Scotland's rightful fiscal position: is it a net or gross subsidy. You couldn't make it up. Net of course:
http://tinyurl.com/63ppns
Complain about this comment
#216 Chris
I understand your sadness at the demise of the Empire, but we need to move on. Incidentally, the same could be said of any Empire, currently it's the USA who dominate. Get used to it.Complain about this comment
wrong article - whoops ;-)
http://tinyurl.com/6dha2o
Complain about this comment
Browndov
This is the latest of several attemts to pigeon hole me. For you r info i am no tory small or large C.
What a shame you cant see that it is possible to have different opinions on issues without having to be a tory or Nulab or lib dem or a rabid nationalist.
I agree though your last effort was boring
Complain about this comment
Two things here. The first is that winning a medal for Britain is a great achievement, a proud moment, just like winning the Ryder cup for Europe. But it can surely not compare to doing the same for your country of birth, for Scotland. People should not be ashamed to have this view or to feel that they are somehow "betraying" Britishness.
The second point is one that I feel commentators have missed. This is that football at the Olympics is, well, micky mouse football. It is not, like other events, an Olympic sport. These should be only about strength, speed, endurance, mainly of the individual. Football, as we all know Brian, is team work, getting the luck of the bounce, about what the Ref can see at a particular time, if the stricker can pretend he was hacked down for a penalty kick etc. I love my football, can watch it all day....but not as part of the Olympics.
Complain about this comment
#222 notacronay
Well said. I have no problem with Chris Hoy being proud of his achievements as an individual or in any team he is part of.
Your comments re Olympic football are dead on.
Complain about this comment
On the matter of the proper size for an independent entity, see this, and scroll down.
Slainte!
ed
Complain about this comment
On a similar point, I note that the "Scottish" athletes are going on an open bus parade of Edinburgh today whereas "all" the GB athletes will take part in the London parade.
Something is really not right here. Surely the people of Scotland would like to congratulate the Welsh, Irish and English athletes?
Complain about this comment
#221 northhighlander
I have no desire to pigeon-hole anyone but simply to draw two distinctions between the status quo and change.
Firstly between those who support the current unwritten constitutional arrangement of the UK and those who believe in electoral and constitutional reform. Any such change would almost certainly prevent a future government having 100% of the power from the votes of less than a quarter of the electorate as NuLab currently do.
Secondly between those who believe a unitary UK state should be maintained and those who believe in self-determination of peoples in accord with the UN Charter and are ready to trust the people to decide. Eash of the four UK nations should be trusted to make their choice.
Tories and NuLab are both "conservative" and "unionist" in those areas in the sense that they oppose change, although a few "old" Labour stalwarts disagree to some extent.
The other two Scottish main parties are woollier in their views. As the SNP wants independence, it doesn't state policies on reforming the UK parliament, but it clearly supports self-determination and a written constitution so is firmly in the "for change" camp but unclear on UK policies pre-independence.
The LibDems strongly support UK constitutional and electoral reform and in their 2007 policies supported more progress toward federalism. Sadly, their Scottish and Federal leadership have backed off the latter of late.
I am a Liberal partly because I believe strongly for the need for change in both areas in accord with the Liberal Party. Hence, in plurality elections I will support whichever of the LibDems or SNP seems more likely to win unless I see it as a "straight fight" between NuLab and the Tories, when I would support the Tories as the lesser evil re centralisation, authoritarianism and honesty.
Complain about this comment
#224 Ed Iglehart
An enlightening document, Ed. As I've said before I support something approaching the Swiss confederal model, with the power resting in the people and flowing upwards through communes and cantons rather than a top-down model like the UK where our lords and masters deign to throw the odd crumb of freedom to us serfs.
Complain about this comment
Scotland isn't a canton or a departement or a Lander. Scotland is a country. Full independence is the only LOGICAL state for Scotland to be.
Complain about this comment
i am a proud englishman,and have no problem with a GB team in football olympics but whoever said field an english only team has not been following our international team,the way we are playing we wouldn`t make a good championship side.
Complain about this comment
#228 bluelaw
We disagree on your last sentence, but I hope we agree on the right of the peoples of the 4 nations of the current UK to decide democratically for themselves which is the right option for each of them, and that if any choose full independence the others will respect that choice and not attempt to block it.
Agreed that Scotland is neither a canton nor a departement nor a Land (Lander is the plural). What it is and whether it has a top-down or a bottom-up polity is for the Scottish people to decide.
IMO, a multi-choice STV referendum in 2010 would be the best way to move forward, and given the continued existence of unionist parties in Scotland, one of the choices should be "Direct rule from London". That would surely be my last preference, but it should be on offer as one of the options.
Complain about this comment
#188 Thomas, I work in the civil service, and I do not have your optimism. The only view in the SG just now that carries any weight is that of FM himself. Sorry, can't say anything more specific than that, as I have signed the Official Secrets Act!
The cost of missiles is a side issue. Before that, I want more basic information from the Nats side, like, how would they go about setting up/arming etc a Scottish army, navy and air force? How much would it cost? What about the National Grid? Will we continue to use that, or have to construct our own? What about organisations (both private and public sector) and institutions that operate both here and the South - what are the ramifications for them? In what way will all this upheaval benefit me and my family? That last one might sound rather selfish, but it is the way the majority of people think. Family first, country second.
So far there are too many gaps in information/planning to be able to make an informed judgement on this. And I will not vote 'yes' merely because others out there believe that if Alex Salmond says something will work, then it will. He has to prove his case, and in far more detail than he has done so far. Until he does, it's the status quo for me.
Complain about this comment
#231.
How can the Nationalists give you an example of a Scottish Military when we simply have no idea what we will be left with?
The best I can tell you is that our military size would be up to 25,000, with a budget of approx 2 billion.
By Law we may be able to have a second vote. One to show if we are happy with the settlement or not. It might be worth investigating and even pressuring one for so you know the score after we are Independent. Many people would support Independence, many are afraid that the outcomes would leave themselves worse off.
Complain about this comment
#232. Sorry Thomas, not good enough. I, and many like me, want firm facts and figures BEFORE voting on this matter. Afterwards is not acceptable. After all, do you sign a legal agreement without reading it? Of course not.
The SNP need to get this all sorted, on paper, and out in the public demain in good time before their referendum. Otherwise, there will be legal challenges all over the place, under Human Rights legislation, and other useful pieces of law.
Complain about this comment
The awarding of the 2012 games to the UK was about the blackest moment in the olympic history. When a country invades another, whether to look for non-existent WMD, steal oil or just do what uncle Georgie says, it should not be rewarded with the olympic games.
Never mind just fitba; Scotland should show some decency and avoid the evil 2012 games all together.
Asiabill
Complain about this comment
#233.
To be honest you are only giving the Nationalists permission to enter negociations with London over Independence.
You are not giving away permission to actually become Independent. So, technically you have a right to another round of voting to decide to become Independent or not.
Neither side can confirm what we will be left with. It would be foolish to start promising anything untill negociations are over and that has not started yet.
Complain about this comment
#234 asiabill
You have an interesting point, but as bad IOC decisions go, I'd say it was below 2008 and 1980 on their scale of stupidities. At least there are some human rights left in the UK.
More to the point is that it would have been much cheaper for the UK government to give every taxpayer a free Eurostar ticket to go and watch the 2012 games in Paris - more fun, too.
Complain about this comment
#233 In that case, many people will vote no, I suspect. If the Nats expect me to agree to let them enter into negotiations with absolutely no idea of what they will be asking for/agreeing to in those negotiations, they are, to quote my mother 'up a gum tree'!
Complain about this comment
I write as someone who has participated in athletics at club level for many years and was inspired to take up the sport by the sight of Lachie Stewart winning the Commonwealth Games 10,000 metres at Meadowbank way back in the 60's, I would have loved to have had the talent and dedication to emulate him.
My memories are of him wearing the Scottish vest and representing his own nation.
If I had had the talent to represent my country at international level, it would always have been a huge disappointment and a crisis of conscience for me to have to compete so often wearing a UK vest.
I was pleased for all the UK medal winners in Beijing, but can't help but feel that if Scotland had regained her independence many years ago, our population would have grown sufficently by now for us to have had more than four medal winners up on that open-topped bus.
I see the concept of a GB football team as yet another cause of damage to our national self confidence. We know that with England having the bulk of the UK population, Scotland's contribution to the team would in all likelyhood be negligible.
In conclusion I would suggest that we should resist any attempt to further undermine our nationhood and independence.
Complain about this comment
bernerabankie
It seems Hoy and Grainger didn't have the crisis of conscience putting on a TeamGB vest that you would have had.
I wonder if they would have won their plethora of world medals without that vest?
I suppose if you are happy to promote mediocrity then you have a fair point, but I doubt they would agree with you.
Let us of course not forget as seen by the Edinburgh parade, we all love winners!!
Complain about this comment
In response to the Earl of Cherwell I would point out that Scotland has produced many fine athletes and sportsmen and women over the years. Some of them have really made it to the top at their chosen discipline and would I'm sure have performed every bit as well in a Scotland vest as in a British one.
I don't think you could describe the likes of Eric Liddle, Lachie Stewart, Alan Wells or Liz McColgan as mediocre and Chris Hoy and the other recent Olympic medal winners are just the latest in what is for a small nation, a fairly long list of high acheiving sportsmen and women.
What we suffer from at present is a mediocre infrastructure for many of our sports due to lack of investment and for too long a lack of national ambition for their country by Union supporting politicians.
Without intentionally wishing to make a political point, it is likely that the present Scottish Government is going to be much more aspirational for our country and its sporting acheivements.
As for Chris Hoy and the other Scottish medal winners having no crisis of conscience in wearing the GB vest, that decision was theirs to make and for no one else to pass judgement on.
My personal hope for the future is that our country can regain its independence and national self confidence to the point where we will have a growing economy and population that will be better placed to support and contribute to our sporting ambitions and that our sportsmen and women can stand proudly on the podium as they watch the Saltire rising.
Are there really Scot's out there who would rather watch the Union Flag?
Complain about this comment
#15 Oldnat: "The Northern Irish are recognised by the OIC as being part of the Irish team (though Team GB includes them if they wish, and they're good enough)."
Wrong!
We regard ourselves as part of the GB Team, not the Irish team.
Complain about this comment
"I would point out that Scotland has produced many fine athletes and sportsmen and women over the years. Some of them have really made it to the top at their chosen discipline and would I'm sure have performed every bit as well in a Scotland vest as in a British one."
Many of the successfull Scots train with the British Team. Even Andy Murray lives and trains in Manchester. Chris Hoy has stated he couldn't have done what he did at the Olympics without GB training and backing, and he also does most of his training in England.
Complain about this comment
#234. asiabill wrote:
"The awarding of the 2012 games to the UK was about the blackest moment in the olympic history. When a country invades another, whether to look for non-existent WMD, steal oil or just do what uncle Georgie says, it should not be rewarded with the olympic games.
Never mind just fitba; Scotland should show some decency and avoid the evil 2012 games all together.
Asiabill"
It was Tony Blair, Gordon Brown, Des Browne, John Reid, Alistair Darling - who are Scottish, who authorised the invasion of the country you are talking about, so yes, you are right, the rest of the UK should distance ourselves from them.
Just because the main UK politicians sit in England to carry out their wrong-doings, doesn't make any one of them English.
Complain about this comment
Although I would not disagree with Jim_Thompson that many of our top sportsmen and women do have to use training facilities in England and overseas, I would argue that this should not necessarily be the case. If we had better infrastructure here in Scotland, the afore mentioned would have the choice.
At present this is often not the case and this is why I feel we need to build up our physical infrastructure and our national self confidence so that the sportsmen and woman can compete knowing that their own country is doing everything it can to support them.
It should never be the case that you feel disadvantaged by representing your own nation.
Complain about this comment
View these comments in RSS