On the tour bus
It is, I suppose, PR at the public expense. Despite that, I cannot find it in me to take against the notion of a peripatetic Scottish Cabinet.
Starting today in Dumfries, the members of Alex Salmond's Cabinet are being paraded around Scotland, a little like a travelling political circus. Stand by Inverness, Pitlochry and Skye. You're next.
The ostensible reason for holding Cabinet meetings around the country is to ensure that the Ministers at the core of the Scottish Government continue to engage with territories and concerns beyond the central belt.
They could, of course, do this by visiting each other's constituencies or by conducting Ministerial visits. However, there is apparently much to be gained from a collective descent.
What will be the upshot? Presumably, such decisions as are taken at these meetings will resemble the conclusions reached in Edinburgh. That is because these verdicts are, one trusts, based upon sound, detailed evidence and consideration - not because the Ministers happen to be in Pitlochry.
Stop, Brian, stop. Desist. Disavow cynicism. This is a reasonable wheeze which might contribute somewhat to public engagement with governmental politics. It's hermless, as we say in the great and noble city of Dundee.
Plus the formal Cabinet meetings are being backed up by local endeavour, including contact with community and voluntary organisations.
This is a Good Thing, as defined by the seminal work on political history: 1066 and All That.
I can recall Michael Forsyth's Grand Committee Road Show when MPs were despatched to similar settings around the country. Dumfries, indeed, featured a visit by the Prime Minister John Major to the Scottish Grand Committee.
Mr, now Lord, Forsyth, was attempting to demonstrate that the Grand, suitably enhanced, could do pretty well everything that might be achieved by a devolved Parliament, sited in Scotland.
This was, of course, a bogus prospectus - neglecting the fact that the devolved Parliament derives a mandate solely from Scotland, rather than a reflection of the UK voting pattern.
No matter. While it lasted, the Grand on Tour was a great show. I remember with particular affection the quantity and vigour of the public demonstrations which accompanied each separate manifestation.
We have, incidentally, lost something in that regard since Holyrood moved to, well, Holyrood.
The Mound was the spot for demos since MSPs had to travel on foot from their offices at the other side of the Royal Mile, braving tourists, pipers, citizens and, occasionally, horses.
But back to peripatetic politics. All the best to the Cabinet on their tour. Hope they have fine weather. Hope that they, singly, contrive to get some time off to rest the intellect - unlike last summer when they were lashed to the mast throughout by Captain Salmond.
The FM will undoubtedly seek to compare this present exercise with the only occasion to date when the UK Cabinet met outside London.
That was on 7 September 1921, in Inverness, when David Lloyd George called an emergency meeting to discuss the Irish crisis. The PM had been holidaying in the Highlands. For the avoidance of doubt, I didn't cover that political gig.
I'm 
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Last summer's curtailment of leave probably proved that the early bird does get the worm. Since the SNP did seem to gain the agenda subsequently.
Keeping the Cabinet compact was also a good move in the public eye, because it conveys a sense of good value.
Roving the land might help overcome the dual problems of; SNP concentration of support in selected regions, and wider concern that Holyrood might become as insular as Westminster.
If it works, good.! - If not, well at least they showed willingness to experiment with accessibility.
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"For the avoidance of doubt, I didn't cover that political gig"
Are you sure Brian?, memory can be a tricky thing when you get older
:-)
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Brian, when you talk about grand parades, you neglected to mention the Barcelona circus at Tannadice on Saturday. They really were fantastic to watch.
However, now that it is over, nothing has changed, nothing is different at Tannadice. One wonders if the SNP circus will be exactly the same...
I know where my money is.
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Times they are a-changing - well at least for politics North of the Border. If it helps the politicians reach good balanced decisions for the benefit of the people then they can have as many roadshows as they require.
And if the people can't make it through to the Capital, then let the Government go to the people. It's called Devolution.
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One of the reason the SNP are hard at work is that they have a four year term ,if they were to take holiday leave (summer ,winter recess etc ) just like the Unionist parties then the four years of working to improve Scotland would be reduced to less than 3 years.The SNP and its members are on a mission and it will not be complete until Scotland is Independent.
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I'm all for politicians getting out and travelling around the country. All the parties should do it.
We could tie it in with the campaign to stop wasting food. I'm sure I could augment my income in retirement by setting up a mobile stall selling rotten eggs and tomatoes.
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Brian,
"The FM will undoubtedly seek to compare this present exercise with the only occasion to date when the UK Cabinet met outside London"
Do I detect a hint of cynicism?
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#6 brigadierjohn
I nearly swallowed it until the last sentence.
Glad there is still some fight left in you after the mauling you took yesterday.
May I suggest that you put yourself forward as a independent candidate for the Scottish Parliament. I think you would add a great deal to the opposition
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#8: Thank you.... I think! I certainly wasn't mauled. A low blow from someone on his knees, is still a disqualification. I think if you look back, most of my stuff was reinstated.
As for standing, not really practical I fear. But I would love it. Not even the FM has a "complain about this shock to my system" button!
But if any opposition MSP, of any party, wants a speechwriter - and, oh, how they need one - I could be persuaded.
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Brian -
I think it's a good thing for the public to have clear and simple choices:
1. The SNP's peripatetic politics.
or
2. Labour's very pathetic politics.
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I don't see Gordon Brown and his Cabinet driving up and down the country, learning from the individuals of the country themselves about the issues that effect them.
Gordon Brown could sure copy Salmonds way of doing things.
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Brian
Once again Alex Salmond leads from the front. He is not afraid to go out and meet people and listen to their views.
This in sharp contrast to the MP for Kirkcaldy and Cowdebeath who is more noticeable by his absences than any appearances. As in Glasgow East for instance.
Can you tell me when any Scottish Labour politician last spoke at a public meeting, rather than a closed door Labour party love in?
Will the meetings for the Labour party leadership that are going round the country be open to the public? or is that a silly question.
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I suspect the SNP have chosen those locations very carefully - they'll probably be filled by supporters, for we all know Mr S doesn't like to face any surprises in public.
And that probably explains why they have ignored Glasgow.
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bighullabaloo that was very naughty but not half as bad as the ultra cruel swimdmj. Let me tell you the Tangerines learned a lot from that game and it was great for the fans.
Good link mind you from Tannadice to the Cabinet's exercise in bringing Government to the people.
BTW keep your money in your pocket, I've just seen residents of Dumfries being interviewed.....they rather like the idea of having their opinions sought and the chance to ask questions.......such a novelty they love it.
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#11 Got to agree with you there, the SNP should also go to Glasgow. In addition there should also be a public meeting in Edinburgh! (speaking as a weegie based in Aberdeen)
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GlasgowGooner:
Are you suggesting that the Scottish National Party would prepare their own supporters for these events?
It is quite difficult to make that suggestion since if you were supporting the Scottish National Party and they were in the area, you would may well want to see them.
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BrianSH:
If I were Alex Salmond I would vist Glasgow unannounced. My Party recently won Glasgow East and I would not want the appearance to be shown as the Nationalists rubbing in the victory to Labour.
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#13 - I seem to remember Alex Salmond and co getting a rather warm welcome in Glasgow recently?! Warmer than that awaited by G Brown, when he finally decides to emerge from his bunker in the south-east and return "home" to Scotland.
Unlike any other party represented at Holyrood, the SNP's support is truly national - Edinburgh, Glasgow, Dundee, Aberdeen, Inverness, Kilmarnock, the rural Highlands, the Western Central Belt, Argyll and Bute, the Western Isles, the Borders and "Central Scotland" (Cumbernauld, Falkirk, Livingstone - as far north as Perth etc ...). Surely, you would expect them to run a more inclusive government (seeking to reach out beyond West-Central Scotland and the capital city) unlike the "West of Scotland Labour Mafia" we saw dominate for far too long.
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#11 + #15
They've just done Glasgow or did you miss the by election??
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#13: Probably correct, but we can still go along. I take it the visits will be publicised generally and not just to party hacks? It'll be a bit like Question Time, anyone who opens his mouth will have his factional interest identified at once.
I would certainly encourage pensioners to go along and demand an immediate doubling of their cash (not devolved, I know, but they must have thought about what they'd do).
Come to think of it, pensioners are probably the biggest voting block in the country if only they could be mobilised. Their collective fount of wisdom and experience could make mincemeat of all the party whizkids.
If the local media at every venue were to report upon loud demonstrations by angry old folk, either the visits would stop or the seeds of a movement could be sown.
Politics is missing the old, rowdy public meetings where local characters could harangue the hapless.
Where I come from, older folk still recall a great-uncle of mine telling a posh Tory that he "drank more in his club at lunchtime than a postman earns in a week."
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This is what the Scottish Parliament shoudl have been; you don't need a permanent chamber at all.
A 'home' for the administration, yes.
For the civil servants, yes.
But for the debates (which could have temporarily occupied each of the former regional council HQs), no.
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I just thought I'd remind bloggers that "Dumfries" may be where the roadshow momentarily sits, but is often (and objectionably to my mind) used as shorthand for the ugly mouthful "Dumfries and Galloway", an example of how "local" local government in Scotland can be. Langholm is more local to Nottingham than to Drummore.
And he was apparently of Welsh extraction...The next step after independence MUST be a move towards more truly local local government. Personally I'm a Stewartry Nationalist, or possibly even a Palnackie Nationalist!
Thomas Jefferson on the matter:
Yaki Dah!
ed
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GlasgowGooner:
Where have you been for the last three weeks. Alex Salmond was in Glasgow 11 times which is well 11 times more than Broon.
You must have seen wee impartial Glen on the beeb getting upset about the times Alex was in Glasgow. (at least he would have if he was not so impartial and did everything he could to maintain that impartiality)
If you watched Warrick you would know why Broon is not let out on his own. The look of horror on the faces of cabinet members listening was priceless.
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Brian, I'm surprised to see you claim that the problem with the Scottish Grand Committee was that that it didn't have a Scottish mandate. In fact, that was one of the few problems it didn't have - at least by the period you're talking about, it consisted solely of the 72 Scottish MPs. The real issue was that it didn't have any powers!
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#11 Thomas Porter
I meant #13 and #15 in my last post #19.
I did not mean to confuse you with the blinkered ones.
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#22: Palnackie? No wonder you're floundering! Sorry, too hard to resist.
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The tour just seems like another exercise in PR by Alex Salmond. He is getting really good at it. Maybe the Labour Party can learn from him. Doubt it though as their heads are still buried in the sand and the SNP's heads are well in the air. My prediction is that come the next local elections the SNP will gain control of Glasgow Council. Dont think that it would surprise anyone.
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# 13
I think you have a dose of 'soor plooms' or perhaps you're inaware that Dumfries has the only tory MP in Scotland.
The idea of taking the Cabinet to the people is to take it to places which are far from Holyrood.
When I last heard there's a motorway and a train service from Glasgow to Edinburgh and both journeys take less than an hour. Then perhaps you think Dumfries or Inverness is the same distance.
Action speaks louder than words and this is action from our government.
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I remember when The Scottish Grand Committee met in Selkirk Forsyth who
had studied Classics at Arbroath High
was ambushed by Selkirk High School
band - who were protesting about his
cuts in music tuition in The Borders. He
turned up at The Victoria Hall - and the
headline wrote itself as he was given
a violin to play in front of all the press!
But music tuition was then put back on
the Scottish political agenda. And Tam
Dalyell also pointed out during debate
that music and mathematics are linked.
And Selkirk High is now also the centre
of the Borders traditional music scene -
as well as having a great silver band. I
don't think politicians would have known
just how important amateur music was
either in keeping alive the intangible cultural heritage in rural communities
had they not met in The Borders too.
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This travelling show idea gets better the more I think about it. Perhaps the Scottish public could fulfil the role Labour is failing to carry out, ie, hold the Government to account in a pointed, well-targetted way.
If it becomes an SNP rally, no offence meant, then it's a waste of time.
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If only people had known an SNP Government would be this innovative, not to mention entertaining...
So many wasted years.
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#30 brigadierjohn
I think Wee Eck and his troops are showing a bit of forward thinking, unlike the rest (Labour and Lib Dems) who are squabbling about who their new leader should be.
If we do get a referendum in 2010 then canvassing this early is a good idea as we will have stolen a march on the rest.
Now whether its an SNP rally or not makes no difference.
Perhaps you should go along to one of them and do your Victor Meldrew impression which you are so good at.
But before you spit the dummy out I do agree with you about the old age pension. It is a mere pittance
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The SNP are on a roll and going round the country while the Bi Election is fresh in everybodys minds is a good thing. They have some good ideas and do what they want nae what theyre telt !! Hopefully in 2010 they will wipe the fleer.
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32: No danger of spitting the dummy - it's not my style... I hold it between my teeth. Spitting the gumshield (see my previous pugilistic reference), now, that's someone else's speciality.
There is, of course, a good Victor Meldrew link to SNP policy: I don't believe it!
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My earlier post seemed to be taken the wrong way, I was just pointing out that these public cabinet meetings should take place across Scotland, including the big two cities and all of the other cities in the land.
It seems like a positive initiative.
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Sounds like an easy way to get a photo-op with a baby near you, while still getting through all those meetings.
On the other hand, it will mean that licence payers around the country will get to see for themselves how many BBC staff it takes to cover a non-event!
:)
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The Scottish Government's cabinet meetings in rural parts of the country are to be welcomed.
Such Community-Cabinet meetings bridge the gap between the Government and the people. It makes Government more accessible to local communities, ultimately strengthening the democratic process in Scotland.
Such community-cabinet meetings have proved very successful in the State of Victoria in Australia, where over 82 meetings since 1999 have taken place:
http://www.premier.vic.gov.au/community-cabinet/community-cabinet.html
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Ignoring the negative blowhards on here for a moment, it's revealing to see what people in Dumfries thought of being able to ask any question they liked of government ministers during an hour long "meet the people" session:
1. "Makes you feel involved."
2. Let's fol see what the cabinet's thinking about."
3. "It's a good thing to let you meet our politicians on our home ground."
(Quoted from Tuesday's Reporting Scotland)
It would appear the cynics are making the classic cynics' mistake of thinking everybody else is as cynical as they are.
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"A cynic is what an idealist calls a realist."
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"Cynicism is the intellectual cripple's substitute for intelligence."
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Certainly as ideas go, it's good to see Mr. Salmond taking lessons from Lord Forsyth in taking the business of Government to the people. Joking aside, this is one of the better ideas from the SNP providing that it is open and honest Cabinet thinking and not something just to play to the audience of SNP lackeys.
Surely it is something that can be rolled out across the year, and not just when the Parliament is on its summer holidays. Indeed, were it to be succesful, we could always try to sell the Parliament building - one previous owner, lots of dodgy building work - and get £10M or so for it!!
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22 Ed Iglehart
I generally like reading your posts but, please, it's "Iechyd da".
Thanks, and
Slàinte.
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There is a huge difference between cheap PR stunts and real public engagement. Perhaps Wee Eck is really going to listen to the people, I am sure he will get plenty of feedback in rural scotland on the huge agenda facing rural communities as yet untouched by the SNP. Or perhaps he will be like every other politican and ignore rural communities as there are few votes to be gained.
SNP so far have done very little to address rural issues, so I know where my money is.
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In all about 20 people got to ask various questions ranging from tourism, wind farms, renewable energy, referendum, civic pride, voluntary section, small businesses, gay and lesbian rights and notably the elderly forum (a feisty lot) who had excellent questions on heating costs and the fear that many elderly will face a 'heating or eating' option this winter.
One questioner got direct access to Shona Robinson after disclosing that Scottish Gas who were given the central heating contract by the previous administration, are using central belt contractors and demanding between £2000 and £3500 on top of the grant already given to them by the government to install central heating into the elderly folks homes. Local contractors have been excluded and have given several quotations to clients that they can install and maintain the central heating systems within the £3500 grant limit.
It was a worthy effort. The audience comprised local authority types, voluntary groups, church groups and interested citizens (me). I believe it is the intention to roll it out every year, and expand its remit.
It was the very first attempt at participative politics by a national government and Salmond and team are to be applauded for coming down to Dumfries and facing the public.
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#44 EwanfromDumfries -
Thanks for sharing your report of the cabinet's "meet the people" session in Dumfries.
It sounds to me as if Brian Taylor was right to fight against his initial tendency to dimiss the idea as a public-financed PR exercise. It certainly sounds worthwhile to me.
Since what you've written bursts the cynics's' balloons I expect they'll now be falling back on the "hand-picked SNP audience" claim.
Sounds to me as if that's a bit of an insult to the people who went to the trouble of turning up at the meeting?
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Re 44.Thanks for the report Ewan.I did wonder if this would be just an SNP PR jolly at public expense as there was no info coming out about dates and times for public access but I'm now thinking it's maybe part 2 of the National Conversation where the Government engages with civic society.But in a local sense with people being asked to attend as representatives of their organisations.Am I right,Ewan or others,and will all the other local meetings be not open to the general public to walk in and talk to their first minister?
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According to the BBC's Dumfries reporter Willie Johnston: "the audience (of about 100 people) represented a cross section of community interest and political opinion, but friend and foe appeared to appreciate the Government's efforts to come to them."
So that bursts the cynics' "hand-picked SNP audience" balloon as well then!
Not at all surprised that when you take the time to check the actual truth of what happened at this meeting it exposes the hateful, politically-motivated lies that some posters here try to stuff down our throats every day.
After yet another clear-cut case of exposing them for what they are, I now regard it as a waste of valuable lifetime to bother reading their vile attempts to poison the truth.
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Newsnight Scotland
Gordon Brewer giving Cathy Jamieson a hard time (thank goodness Glenn Campbell isn't there giving them feeds).
Cathy J making aspirational statements (wants to see people helped to get back to work Duh!), and wants to buy a new computer.
Oh, and she wants to stand up to UK Labour Ministers, with whom she will be closely co-operating (on unspecified issues).
Flush and busted spring to mind
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#47 Bighullaballoo
'Vile attempts to poison the truth'
'Hateful politically motivated lies'
Careful with the hyperbole or someone might think that you are the angry man!!
Many of us post reasonable topics/questions - certainly over the last couple of days I have posed several questions - fairly and frankly and without predjudice, and yet, with the honourable exception of one of jake-the saltires replies, have been met with bile, slurs and insults from all of the 'proud nationalists' that seem to litter these threads with very much rhetorical answers.
I love my country as much as the next man and am proud to be both British and Scottish and yet bighullaballoo you and others like you seem to be doing no favours for your cause.
Yes there are some posters who try to extract the urine, but you don't half make it easy for them to do!! Others post questions to you and others and have to suffer abuse in reply.
Sadly in over 300 replies to the 'business as usual' blog, over 200 were taken up by point scoring rather than debating issues - which is, I am led to believe, what you would like to do!
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Brian - "It is, I suppose, PR at the public expense."
Well it will be money well spent if the problem highlighted in post #44 is addressed. Scottish Gas has been blatantly profiteering, perhaps even fraudulently with little or no supervision. This has been highlighted to our elected representatives, who appear to take no interest, then again what can you expect from Labour who think they have a stranglehold on power in Scotland and a god given right to squander our money any way they see fit.
Maybe it is a stunt, but if they carry on listening to our opinions and concerns I know which socialist party I'll be voting for next time
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#20 brigadierjohn
"It'll be a bit like Question Time, anyone who opens his mouth will have his factional interest identified at once."
At the meeting Andrew Johnston said he did not think there was any "appetite for constitutional divorce" among Scots.
So, what "factional interest" do you think this speaker had?
The meeting was clearly open to people of all political persuasions, or none, who were free to ask Scottish government ministers any question they liked.
I'm sure when Labour voters all over the country will see this unprecedented openess and genuine willingness to listen to the problems of ordinary people, then compare it to 100 years of being taken for mugs by Labour mafia, they will say to themselves: "I think it's time to vote for the SNP."
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Wheredowegofromhere,
I'd never have got that in a dozen years! Thanks!And thanks to Ewan as well.
Virtual drinks on me, and
Iechyd da!
;-)
ed
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Brian
Peripatetic is Good. It means the SNP Government are getting off their backside and getting out there where the real people live. And in the holidays too!
My wife still insists that you should go peripatetic too to get the weight off. She may be a busybody but she is a caring busybody and includes Alex Salmond in people requiring her advice! Less heat for me!
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#46
Hi Curlybill. There was limited advertising of the event, the Dumfries Standard ran an article on it two weeks ago asking those interested to apply to summercabinet@scotland.gsi.gov.uk for apply for tickets.
I think as this was the first attempt it was perhaps too wide in its remit and gave people the opportunity to ask a wide range of questions, I'd hope in future it would be more focussed on the constitutional question. It was held under the auspices of www.anationalconversation.com
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Its a pity that you compare a touring London Government in 1922 to the present tour by the Scottish Government Brian. To treat it as some sort of frivolous exercise merely shows your bias, and lack of knowledge about the difference between a Westminster based Government touring Scotland, and a Scottish based Government.
The first case of a English Government touring Scotland offers very little by way of constitutional rights.
Alex Salmond and his talented Scottish Government are merely demonstrating that a Scottish Government will be subject to a Constitution which proclaims the Scottish People as the Sovereign Power on all matters.
Of course that is the fact that the Unionist Media seems to ignore on a regular basis. Gordon Brown would have broken the Law of the Land of Scotland if he had denied the Scottish Nation the right to Vote in a Referendum on whether Scotland should be a member of the EU.
Now having watched the Westminster Merry Go Round of Tory then New Labour,who constantly undermine the Right of the People to decide. I know which system I would rather live in. Westminster has never offered the People the Right to be the Sovereign Power, hence the need to tip this lot out of Office ASAP.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
The electorate have a choice, Aristotelian inclusive political debate by the cabinet of party with a mandate from the Scottish electorate, or, social rhetoric imported from an unelected Prime Minister in London who heads a party without a Scottish mandate or leader in Holyrood.
Thousands of Glasgow East constituents choose the former after eighty six years of the latter. I strongly suspect that the rest of the country will, and rightly so, follow the same path, the path to self determination.
Wansanshoo
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#49 donstim
"I love my country as much as the next man and am proud to be both British and Scottish"
Ah the quintessential dichotomy -- am I British or am I Scottish?
For me there is no doubt, I am Scottish. When as a young mariner on his first trip to sea the question posed to me in the great US of A was "Gee, you from Scotland? Is that near London?"
I have never looked back since.
What does Great Britain really stand for?
Lets face it the answer is simple = England
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It's not a dichotomy, any more than one's first name and surname form a dichotomy.
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#59 Anaxim
A division into two especially mutually exclusive or contradictory groups.
I rest my case
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#56 Donstim, Who are these "National Socialists" you refer to? I don't recall seeing their name on any ballot paper in Scotland are you sure you're not thinking about some of the nastier elements of the Tory party?
Oh wait I see what you've done, you've made what could be construed in special circles as a joke, you've confused a popular socially democratic party interested in Independence and slurred them as fascists responsible for the holocaust. Crikey, you must be a blast at the office party.
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# 49 donstim
Every time an embarrassing truth comes out we get the Unionists starting up with the "careful with this" and "careful with that" threats.
I have bad news for you: your threats don't frighten me.
Clearly you don't like it when people burst your balloon with the truth. You obviously have a guilty conscience.
But cynical slurs and attempts to ridicule the first ever genuine attempt at more openness by a Scottish government are neither "reasonable questions" nor "fair and frank" discussion.
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The BBC supports the Union 100%, no ifs, buts or maybes!
How can the BBC fairly represent the people of Scotland with a nationalist government in 2008?
Answer, it can, but will continue!
How can the poeple of Scotland call them selves a mature or fledgling democracy if the country allows its news to be dictated from outwith its borders?
BBC patronises Scotland, yet we put up it and pay for it?
Why?
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Rather than the new face of Scottish labour, "You're about as old hat as a hat can get" - Classic Gordon Brewer, leaving Cathy Jamieson floundering like the proverbial fish out of water. No ideas, no plan and no confidence, is how you would have to sum up Cathy's performance; just the same old politician's platitudes. Hopeless.
You can already hear the call..."Next please"
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#63 Alasdair_McGray
Brian Taylor's view of this tour, which was held under the auspices of the National Conversation, is that "Alex Salmond's Cabinet are being paraded around Scotland, a little like a travelling political circus."
This patronising put down is clearly totally at odds with the actual reality of the event as detailed in some of these posts, particular by those who took the trouble to attend it.
Like a lot of his BBC colleagues Brian is being forced into more blatant put downs and attempts at ridicule because the public are realising the SNP put their interests first.
His articles are getting a faint air of desperation about them - and so they should - because the public are now very close to rumbling the whole sorry BBC shower.
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I think I have supported this SNP initiative throughout this blog, making mild suggestions as to how it might pan out. I referred to Question Time as a possible model, a set-up where the audience, as far as possible, represents a wide range of views. Anyone watching that programme would be able to identify a questioner's political agenda.
Guess what? EwenfromDufries is praised for giving us all a report, in which he listed the various interests represented. Someone, clearly a unionist, asked a question. As did others with different perspectives. So I was right about the similarity to Question Time. I didn't say there was anything wrong with it. Nor did I suggest that the audience was hand-picked by the SNP. How could they?
Yet I am under sneering attack, by someone resorting to extreme and abusive language. Why could this be? Perhaps a rational contributor could tell me.
Let me repeat: I support the initiative and encourage people to go along and let their views be known. Alex Salmond will listen and give his answers. He, at least, is not afraid of hearing another viewpoint.
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Ewan (61),
Well punctured! Sweet.
Slainte
ed
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What chance of Alex Salmond getting a gong from the Queen Lizzie the first for his services to the public?
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#66 brigadierjohn
Why can't you just act like a man and publically admit you got it wrong?
You stated (#20) that GlasgowGooner's claim that the meeting would be filled by SNP supporters was "probably correct".
You haven't got the guts to admit it wasn't.
Everybody here can see yet again you are only interested in rubbishing the truth.
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#69: I said "probably correct." At the time it might have been. It wasn't. I admit it. I was wrong. I have never claimed, unlike some, to be right about everything. I give opinions. Just that.
Here's a fact, though: This man can spell "publicly."
As for truth? Well, it's out there, somewhere, isn't it?
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I am used to seeing the belittling and trivialisation of what the Scottish Government do by unionist hacks, if this is a PR exercise so what I thought that?s what Governments do, it means public relations. What is more important is what people do with it let?s hope and it?s a big hope that they meet with Scots who are from a wide background that they meet friend and foe that they don?t just keep to sycophants that?s what Labour did in the end, Get rid of all people who don?t share the ?leaders vision ?.
I would like to see Alex Salmond's get into gear and tell the bbc time is up this softly softly thing is getting my back up. The flashing colors of the butchers apron at me at the end of each story, in that sad five minute repeated excuse of what is called the morning Scottish news. Has me wanting to fling my TV out the window.
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49 donstim:
"Many of us post reasonable topics/questions - certainly over the last couple of days I have posed several questions - fairly and frankly and without predjudice,"
56 donstim:
"There seems to be an unholy row going on between Labour and The National Socialists."
49 donstim (again):
"Careful with the hyperbole or someone might think that you are the angry man!!"
Can I have a photograph please as they carry you off?
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#71 brigadierjohn
Don't come on here and insult people's intelligence with: "Nor did I suggest that the audience was hand-picked by the SNP".
You stated (#20) that GlasgowGooner's claim that the meeting was "full of supporters" was "probably correct".
Now you are trying to weasel out of it by caliming that your analogy with "Question Time" was a supportive statement.
It was just another one of your sneering put downs. But unfortunately for you someone came on here and told the truth about the meeting and you were found out.
But you don't have it in you to say "fair cop".
You should think about joining the Labour party. That's exactly the sort of arrogance they go for.
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#70 brigadierjohn -
Oh how the mighty have fallen. Reduced to pedantry. The nitpicking solace of losers everywhere.
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#73: OK. I said I was wrong. Now I say: It's a fair cop." Any other phrase you'd like me to repeat?
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#70 brigadierjohn
No one objects to you having an opinion, no one insisted that you be "right" 100% of the time, no one is claiming that for themselves.
What is objectionable is the cynical and deliberate attempts to rubbish the truth.
I, like many other people in this country, are not standing for it any more.
Get used to it.
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Well done to bighullabaloo for pursuing his point so vigourously.
Well done to brigadierjohn for admitting his erors.
Now, can we end this slagging-match and move on, or should I return to my schooldays and shout "Fight! Fight! Fight!"?
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#76: I have never rubbished "the truth" in my life, because - certainly in political argument - few of us can claim to know what it is. Some of us have strong and honestly-held opinions. We genuinely believe they are true. But another person may hold to another version of "the truth." Religion is an obvious area for such divergences.
This should not result in the use of words such as "vile" and "hateful" in an attempt to suppress another's ideas. In the context of a blog, complaining to the moderator is a form of book-burning.
Can we please revert to the civilised exchange of ideas, each respecting the other's right of free speech?
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#63 makes a very valid point. Why should Scots pay a tax for another Country's broadcaster? Time to start thinking of a boycott. If we all refused to pay this 'poll tax' we would get what we badly need a entirely Scottish broadcasting corporation. Time to tell the 'Brits' to go home.
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brigadierjohn - bighullabaloo .... jeepers ladies .... put the handbags down !
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#80 rabbiehippo
you know what they say "empty barrels make the most noise"
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@60
"A division into two especially mutually exclusive or contradictory groups.
I rest my case."
That's not a logical argument. It's perfectly consistent to be both Scottish and British, just as it is to be both Texan and American.
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It just seems to me like its a bit of a waste of money. They won't come to any different decisions than they would if they were in Edinburgh. Its a pretty pointless excercise.
I suspect if Gordon Brown said he would be doing a similar thing a lot of people who comment here would be up in arms saying that it was nothing more than a PR stunt and an excessive waste of Tax payers money, which is exactly what it is!!
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I defer to the opinions of fellow-bloggers who are fed up with the mini-spat. I resolve to be more decorous. Although resolutions are notoriously fragile!
On a serious point, #'79 frightens me. Surely there is no mood within the SNP these days for direct action of this type?
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#78 brigadierjohn
No one is trying to stifle your right of free speech. You rubbished the truth when you stated GlasgowGooner was "probably correct" that the meeting would be full of SNP supporters.
Clearly you areincapable of seeing is not just a harmless "opinion" - it's a subtly poisonous barb that tries to sway people into negatively prejudging the event.
Why don't you take the time to check out the facts about this meeting before you started ridiculing it out of blind political prejudice (#6)?
Whilst we've got the likes of your miserable blinkered attitude and sneering cynicism being muttered from the sidelines then Scotland will drag itself down btu I am glad to say your number are diminishing with each passing day.
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http://www.guynews.tv/2008/07/in-bunker-after-glasgow-east-result.html
Don't miss this, is the best Brown ever.
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#82
If you had read my post you would understand my feelings on being labelled as British, thus you would understand why I see it as a dichotomy. I don't feel that it is perfectly consistent to be both.
#73
The problem is what is the alternative at the moment.
STV is in its death throws and I can't see Mr. Murdoch going in for local TV
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#80 rabbiehippo -
Having comprehensively sent the "brigadier" home to think again I have decided to leave him to the rest of you. I've got bigger fish to fry. As far as I'm concerned he lost the argument when he finally worked up the courage to admit he was wrong.
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#86
Oh that is brilliant!
I'm sure Charlie Gordon is one of the staff.
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gt-cri - Well Said
bighullabaloo - I think you'll find that john did, quite ungrudgingly, admit to being wrong on this one.
None of us are perfect and he has admitted as much.
We are all entitled to our opinions, I agree with some of yours, I agree with some of John's, is disagree with many of both.
Can we please stick to the debate and cut the hectoring of people who happen to have a different viewpoint to your own to a minimum?
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#90 Fit_Like: Thank you for your fairness. I was beginning to lose hope that anyone would recognise what's going on, far less come out and nail it.
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@87
"If you had read my post you would understand my feelings on being labelled as British, thus you would understand why I see it as a dichotomy. I don't feel that it is perfectly consistent to be both."
Yes, but you said it was a quintessential dichotomy, when, being utterly subjective, it's not.
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Jake & Anaxim,
Where do I come in on this? I feel (in some ways) more "Scottish" than American (though born one), and quite "European", but only barely "British" and defiantly "non-English". I'm clearly more nationalistic than many native Scots, but genetically indisposed to appreciate any irony involved...
I do agree dichotomy may not be the best term.
Slainte
ed
By this, the sun was out o' sight,
An' darker gloamin brought the night;
The bum-clock humm'd wi' lazy drone;
The kye stood rowtin' i' the loan;
When up they gat, an' shook their lugs,
Rejoic'd they were na men, but dogs;
An' each took aff his several way,
Resolv'd to meet some ither day.
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#92
There is subjectivity in all matters no matter how you dress it up. True objectivity is difficult to find.
However I will bow to your superior academic knowledge if it means we can go back to the subject of the blog.
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Jake-the-saltire and Anaxim (various): Hey you guys, just because I resolved to be a good boy doesn't mean there's a vacancy for a pedant!
Jake: May I refer you to your own #81?
I know neither of you want me as referee, but I don't see any dichotomy in being Scots and British. These terms are not sharply divergent or mutually opposed.
Also, to be mischevious, in a good-natured way, "dichotomy" is also a word to describe the phase of the moon when it's exactly half way to full. But which one of you is most influenced by the full moon?
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Everyone's identities are their own. At "national" level -
Some Scots include a British identity as more important than their Scots one, some people in Scotland are wholly or overwhelmingly British.
The above are British Nationalists. There are also Scottish Nationalists who have a wholly Scots identity, or whose "Britishness" is very much subordinate.
Two nations claim Scotland - Scots and British. They both can't win.
The issue will be decided by the people of Scotland, and the aggregation of their feelings about the Scottish/British dichotomy (for at a political level, it is a dichotomy).
It's called democracy
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Re #86 Scotchoice
ROFL
Do, please, post it on the latest Nick Robinson thread also, if only to brighten the brighten the day of the beleaguered NuLab supporters there. They need a little laughter in their drab, wretched lives.
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#33 Ed Iglehart: Where do I come in on this?
His hair, his size, his mouth, his lugs,
Shew'd he was name o' Scotland's dugs;
But whalpet some place far abroad
Where sailors gang to fish for cod.
Keep up the literary allusions.
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bighullabaloo:
Being magnanimous in victory isn't one of your strong-points, then? ;-]
Methinks Brian Taylor (it's his Blog-page, remember?) and the beeb meant Comments on his rantings and not demolish another, albeit with a good argument well delivered!
For what it's worth: I heartily agree with your unwillingness to bow to the wearie-wullies and nay-sayers. The navel gazing in this country has gone on for far too long!
To take the cabinet out and about (remember that?) will help generate interest in our political scene; that is what I believe President Eck is up to.
I know many Scots, at home and abroad, who have never voted or have lost interest. The Labour disintegration above and below the border has not helped, as most people see it as a representation of the standard of politics and our politicians.
Any move by any politician to raise the standard and involve the people in any way has to be applauded. Eck is taking a risk on this, remember. Regardless of how big or small the advertising is, it is leaving the door open to his opponents' people and a potential ambush. The media drubbing which would no doubt follow could undo the good work (in supporters' eyes).
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#93
Ed may I suggest you visit a psychologist to help you find your identity.
I'm truly sorry man's dominion
Has broken nature's social union
And justifies that ill opinion
that makes thee startle at me
Thy poor earth born companion
And fellow mortal
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#98: Correction "nane" not "name." Sorry.
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Jake,
Thanks to the excellent NHS, I have,
But, Och! I backward cast my e'e.
On prospects drear!
An' forward, tho' I canna see,
I guess an' fear!
;-)
ed
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I usually enjoy reading the comments to Brian's blog, even if they go slightly off-topic. However much of the above is pointless slagging between individuals. Please stop it! Comment on the topic and do not continue your pathetic spats. For all our sakes.
On the topic. Good blog Brian, after trying to remember some of the little Scottish history I was taught at school, did the Scottish court in medieval times not move around Scotland so the people could present petitions to the monarch? Not suggesting the Scottish Govt is like the royal court, just thought it was an interesting parallel
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#95 brigadierjohn don't wind me up!!
#96 oldnat thanks for your support.
#102 Ed I think this verse says it all
O wad some Power the giftie gie us
To see oursels as ithers see us!
It wad frae monie a blunder free us
An foolish notion:
What airs in dress an gait wad lea'es us,
An ev'n devotion!
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Aye, twad be a gift indeed!, and if we can escape the Burns Unit for a moment, some advice for those contemplating leadership:
Slainteed
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#103 scot2010: Definitely not wanting a spat, but.... I think the royal court moved around the country to allow courtiers and courtesans (!) to escape the smell. In those days, piles of rotten food, and worse, surrounded palaces after a few months of occupation. They were vacated to allow an army of servants to shovel the you-know-what and make the place fit for a royal return.
The sanitation arrangements at Holyrood seem to be adequate. Unlike the politicians, of all parties I hasten to add.
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I am scottish and british and equally proud of both. I really hope we get a referendum soon so that the whole issue can be put to bed again. Who governs us under what banner is far less important than what they do. We need to be focussing on dealing with scotlands problems, solving them and moving on fighting the battles of the future not wallowing around in the past.
Thanks to the guys for the report on the cabinet meeting, I will reserve my judgement until I see some tangeible evidence.
Also could hte moderaor stop these two from boring everyone else
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oldnat states:
"Two nations claim Scotland - Scots and British. They both can't win."
It's not a zero-sum game where one or the other 'wins'. Someone can be Texan and American at the same time, after all.
Ed Iglehart states:
"I'm clearly more nationalistic than many native Scots, but genetically indisposed to appreciate any irony involved..."
It's not ironic. Transferred nationalism is pretty common.
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#107
"Who governs us under what banner is far less important than what they do. We need to be focussing on dealing with scotlands problems, solving them and moving on fighting the battles of the future not wallowing around in the past."
This is where you seem to fail to understand the Pro-Independence supporters. You sound incredibly confident that the Union shall prove the winners by 2010 but is your confidence of vicotry shared by the Unionist Parties who will be the people who defend the Union?
So far, the Unionist Parties have rejected the idea of holding a referendum (I highly doubt Labour will support the referendum bill). Does this look good towards the rest of the country? Denying the chance for Scotland to become Independent but afraid of proving that Scots want the Union to continue.
You can not see Britain from London. This is one problem I feel ruins Scotland because our Members of Parliament are not putting their efforts into developing Scotland but their efforts are divided between the other Countries/Regions of Britain.
Who Governs Scotland and under what banner is incredibly important...
You are witnessing this because Scottish Labour would like more 'Independence' from London Labour which shows it apprently does matter who and what banner people Govern us.
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Nobody has yet answered what does Great Britain mean?
Particularly in todays world what does it mean and to whom?
If we were to have a referendum on whether we are Scottish or British (and no sitting on the fence like a Lib Dem) how would it pan out?
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#108
I'm sorry but was Britain not founded by the Nations of Scotland and England? You are incredibly offensive that you imply Scotland/Britain is similar to Texas/America.
I highly suspect that you would not stand in the streets of Scotland and claim Scotland to be a state or region of Britain so please don't share your nonesense in this Blog.
Scotland and England are seperate countries (by right). Britain is simply a Union shared between our two countries which has offered close cooperation over the years.
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#108 Anaxim
In UK politics, it is zero-sum. There cannot be two governments of equal status and responsibilities both in charge of the same piece of territory.
I don't find it zero sum to be both European and Scots, since I'm happy to cede some sovereignty to a Union with other states, to exercise those aspects in common.
That was what happened in 1707, but despite the "Incorporating" Union that the Scots Commissioners had to accept, Scotland has remained a political entity, and can decide to leave that Union and join another if it wishes.
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#107 northhighlander
"Who governs us under what banner is far less important than what they do."
I totally agree. I dislike the rabid mouthings of the party activists.
I look forward to having continued minority government in parliament - once we've settled the little matter of which "us" they are governing and where "our" Parliament is going to be.
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#108 Anaxim
I think you make the common error in blogging of reacting to a phrase you disagree with, rather considering its context within the argument. It's too easy to write and click "Submit" before thinking like I just did in forgetting to make my second point!
You said "Someone can be Texan and American at the same time, after all.". If you had bothered to read my posts, you would have seen that I recognise multiple identities.
Incidentally, I remember talking to a Texan couple, who reckoned that Texas should reassert its full sovereignty, since they resented any rule by Washington in their state. They also recognised what happened the last time that some states tried that!
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Re 107 Thomas_Porter:
The future of Scotland lies in getting good quality politicans working towards solving Scotlands problems. The last thing we need is another governmental reorganisation and the upheval and cost that that will entail.
This would give our politicians another excuse for not being held to account for delivering results. It is the oldest Public Sector trick in the book, whenever you face difficulties re-organise. We need politicians focused on delivering, not re-organising.
It is hugely simplistic to believe that the problems Scotland faces are going to magically disappear overnight with a yes vote in a referendum. What would follow would be years of political reorganisation and wastage and the problems we face would be on the back burner.
We need that like a hole in the head
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Northhighlander,
Awwww!Slainte!ed
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#115 northhighlander
I'm reminded of Lord Braxfield's belief -
"The British constitution is the best that ever was since the creation of the world, and it is not possible to make it better. Yet Mr. Muir has gone among the ignorant country people and told them Parliamentary Reform was absolutely necessary for preserving their liberty." (Trial of Thomas Muir, 1793)
I suspected that you lived in the past - but the 18th century!
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Anaxim in #108 was quite correct to draw an analogy between Texas/United States and Scotland/Britain.
Unlike the all other states Texas was an internationally recognised independent republic between its founding as a breakaway part of Mexico in 1836 and its annexation by the US ten years later.
Both Scotland and Texas are therefore alike in being once sovereign nations not included in a larger union.
Interestingly enough when I was in the Army many years ago my nationality was officially recorded as BRIT/SCOT.
On the subject of Unions it is however worth making the point that Scotland has not been annexed by England but joined under the treaty of 1707 in a parliamentary union which happens, worse luck, to be permanently based in London. Now the interesting point about this of course is that when Britain joined the EEC as it then was, it joined as the United Kingdom, not as England and the other bit up north. Consequently in the event of the union being dissolved - ie; a vote for independence, the United Kingdom will no longer exist as a legal entity. Therefore when it comes to considering continuing membership of the EU, either both England and Scotland will automatically be entitled to be members as successor states to the unlamented UK, or both will require to be admitted. There is no question of England automatically remaining in while Scotland is left outside; its either both in or neither.
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#115
"It is hugely simplistic to believe that the problems Scotland faces are going to magically disappear overnight with a yes vote in a referendum."
I have not stated that all of Scotlands problems would magocially disappear. Others also have not stated that Scotlands problems would disappear.
However, since you brought it up Independence can only bring a better level of governing to Scotland. Our MSP's will have no excuse for their mistakes and will be able to develope a better Scotland.
The Union comes at a price. Scotlands own economic growth has remained almost static for 30 years at around 2%. Shall we compare this to our neighbours?
You would rather continue with a failed Union then fix the problem. Independence is not the only option but the people of Scotland are dead certain that staying as we are is not going to do anyone any good.
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#115 northhighlander
It seems a bit lazy not to do something just because in the short term it requires an increased amount of work and effort. People are faced with effort like that every day in their jobs and/or homelife. In order to achieve a greater good you often have to take two steps back, regroup and power through because you know in the end things will get better because you have now put the right foundations in place and have a solid base to build on but to simply leave things as they are just because things may require an "upheaval" is in my view, as mentioned earlier, lazy.
It has occured to me that this post has absolutely no relevance to the cabinet taking a tour of Scotland so on that subject Good on them. I'm a firm believer in face to face communcation for getting points across and having your opinions heard although i am fully aware of the irony in the fact that i'm using the internet to get my point across and not chapping on your doors and speaking to you personally.
Thank you for your time.
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OldNat:
I am a person who lives and works in rural Scotland now in 2008. All I see are inefficiently delivered public services, poor quality delivery in local government and the NHS, teachers who were given a ludicrous pay deal under the last lot and now do even less for their money, taxes go up and things don't get better. All of the above are areas the current parliament has control over and has done little to improve.
Politicans of all persuaions promise great things, the thing I have come to realise is the bigger the promise the more it costs and the less likely it is to deliver.
No-one has made any case for a yes vote that really makes any sense to me. I live in the real world and grind no axe for any party, they really are all much about such.
I would like to see some delivery using the powers they already have before we move any further. I don't expect to see much evidence in the near future.
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#120 jedirnbru
Virtually every thread started by Brian ends up at this point. Not really surprising since it's the only critical issue in Scottish politics.
I doubt if Brian is surprised!
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The Scottish Government is going out among the people whose welfare it is charged with. The people's welfare is served neither by remote government nor by government which does not labour night and day to work for the people and to show itself to be doing so.
The SNP Government is doing what it said it would do by holding cabinet meetings around the country and by having all of its MSPs make themselves conspicuously available, furthermore, for consultation with those whom they represent. A minority government cannot by definition do everything it wishes to do, but it must keep those promises which it is within its power to keep or come to the people to explain to them why in particular cases it should, on reflection, do otherwise. "Promises may get thee Friends, but Nonperformance will turn them into Enemies." (Benjamin Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanack, 1740)
This may seem novel in this country, but government of the people by the people for the people is what democrats are supposed to believe in rather than merely taking the people's money and disappearing over the horizon. What the Scottish Cabinet is doing is no circus. This is democracy in action, and it has taken the Scottish National Party to show us how that should work. Keep paying attention, for the governing party has further lessons in store.
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#115
I work with people who must have the same genetic background as yourself.
They don't want/like change, "the old way is better, we've always done it this way"
In this life the only thing that is constant is change and a change in the way Scotland is governed can only be welcomed particularly if it is governed from within.
The counter to my argument is "If its not broken don't fix it" . But it is broken and the only way to fix it is to change to an Independent State
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#122
But boy does it get the juices flowing!
All roads lead to rome just as all arguments (discussions) lead to the Independence debate.
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#121
To be quite fair. Since Scotland does not have control over our own income/taxes why do you expect public services to become better?
We receive the same grant (with slight increases) for our services to continue but even then if you want change then you need the money for it to become real.
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#121 northhighlander
"All I see are .. (list of negatives)"
What a sad life you must lead - you seem to see no good in your world.
I misunderstood you, as I thought you were a Unionist (and I respect their position). Instead you appear to believe that "all is for the worst, in this the worst of all possible worlds", and no one can improve it.
Sad.
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#121
You do seem rather downbeat and have, albeit based on only a few posts, a rather bleak outlook on things.
Things can get better, sorry, things are getting better under the SNP minority Government but i would think with such a pessimistic outlook you wouldn't want to acknowledge the things that have turned around in their first year and bear that in mind also that it is just their first year. You posted earlier that you expected years of upheaval if Independence was declared but yet.....nah, sorry I've lost my point, I got side tracked with work. Sorry.
#124
My work is also over populated with these people which is a shame because if they put the energy and commitment they put into opposing each and every change into working with it and learning why the change is required then the transition from old to new would be faster, more efficient and we'd be reaping the benefits in half the time.
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Northhighlander makes some fair points, despite the flak: I also want to see the present system working properly before deciding if it has a future. Surely this is a key question for the travelling cabinet: How far can you take us under the present deal, what are the obstacles to progress now, and in what way will the "big issues" be better resolved under independence?
So far, all I have heard are aspirations (nothing wrong with that) and claims which are, at best, disputed by many.
I ask the question reluctantly and without malice, but does the SNP have a vested interest in the present system failing, rather than trying to make it work?
I'm not asking for a magic wand, just a vision than I can buy into.
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#129
brigadierjohn
have you read the link I provide?
I would assume you have.
http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2007/08/13103747/0
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I wouldn't imagine they have a vested interest in the present system failing but rather an interest in the failings of the present system and what more they could deliver if given full control and independence. I think they have shown that they can make the current set up work but are limited by it to a degree.
That's obviously based on no FACT what so ever but what I would hope they work towards. so with that in mind it doesn't really add anything to the debate.
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#129 brigadierjohn
Now that's a reasonable position to take.
If by "big issues", you mean macro-economics, defence and foreign affairs, the obvious one is that we wouldn't need to carry the huge costs required to allow UK Governments to pretend that they are important in the world, and keeping their permanent seat on the Security Council and the G8.
"does the SNP have a vested interest in the present system failing, rather than trying to make it work?"
I think there was such a school of thought at one time, but Salmond has seen that off. His strategy is clearly to make the system work as well as he can, and point out the additional powers that would advantageously transfer to Scotland.
A confident Scotland is much more likely to vote for Independence than one retreating into their bunkers, and demonstrating their Scottish "cringe".
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#130: Sorry, my attempts have all ended in a request to check the address. Is it possible to summarise?
#131: It is difficult to assess. If the SNP win the arguments, they win independence. If they fail to make the present system work, they blame the union. And win independence.
I am sure some see that as a win-win situation for the SNP. So, how hard are they trying?
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#130: Success! Got it al last. It looks like a lot of reading. Forgive me if I pass now and wait for a rainly week.
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#130: OK. Managed the summary. Options clear. This is me taking part in the conversation. So, my question still stands, I think. And what does AS propose for old gits like me who think cut and past is akin to rocketry?
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#127 oldnat on northhighlander
"What a sad life you must lead - you seem to see no good in your world."
The most dangerous political situation is satisfaction with one's lot.
When a politician can no longer promote a cause to BETTER the lives of his constituents, then it is time for him/her to move aside.
Gordon Brown, anyone?
Perfect government would be no government, but what then to do with the civil servants? Indeed, if not for the periodic changes in departmental names, etc., an entire signwriting section would be redundant.
In and of itself, change does not necessarily imply forward motion.
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#133 re #130
The Table of Contents provides a fair overview:
AN EXAMINATION OF THE CONSTITUTIONAL OPTIONS
Foreword by the First Minister
Summary
1. Scotland's Parliament
2. Extending Scottish devolution
3. An independent Scotland
4. The changing constitution in the British Isles
5. Legislation and referendums
6. A National Conversation
Annex A Reservations in the Scotland Act 1998
Annex B Draft Referendum (Scotland) Bill
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Brigadierjohn wrote; "but does the SNP have a vested interest in the present system failing, rather than trying to make it work?"
... nah mate, you couldn't be more wrong. The SNP are the first party, not only in Scottish Politics, but UK wide politics to make a minority government actually work.
If you know your politics, the SNP are in this to show the electorate that they can and will succeed in undertaking a productive term in power. If your observation is that it is a failing system, then we agree we can see the same thing here... only difference is, I see a bunch of unionist party's (not least Labour) who are struggling with the set-up and subsequently putting the current system at risk.
As for northhighlanders' comments, we have had just over 14 months of an SNP government, hardly enough time to resolve years of neglect and mis-management under 10 years of Lib-Lab coalition and half a century of Scottish politics under the predominance of Labour in Scotland before that.
If Alex and Nicola were Santa Claus and the Fairy God Mother respectively, I am sure they would change the last 50 years and make it all better, but since they are not, I think it wiser to allow more time before criticising their efforts.
On the topic of this thread, all I can say is "wonderful", yet more innovation and ideas from a refreshing Scottish Government.
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#136 cousteau
Not quite sure of your point.
Indeed I'm not even sure whether you are cousteau666markof the beast, or the one I often agree with!
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It just doesn't sit right with me. It's probably just me but most people in no matter what they do try and do the best they can to achieve what they want (you can include criminals, tight rope walkers, anyone in that) and I know that the ultimate goal for the SNP is to have Independence and that they'll do what ever it takes to get that, even if that means being the best darn devolved government the world has ever known, but they want this as they believe this to be the best course of action for the people of Scotland.
If it were their ultimate goal then they would just walk away once we were seperated, the hell with governing you now, we've got what we were after but it does seem that they are working as best they can within the limitations set because they genuinely do want to create, live in and govern a wonderful country.
Apologies, i've wandered off track again. My fingers are nowhere near as fast as my drifting meandering mind.
It does seem that the SNP would rather you had faith in them becuase they can govern and can govern well as a reason to support independence.
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#132 oldnat: Thank you. I was thinking about my pension, occupational now, and old age when it's due. I know it's presented as a simple transfer, but it will involve work and people must be paid.
I once ordered an expensive shower screen. It was the wrong size and my fault. They changed it, but demanded a 40-quid repackaging fee for the original. So Scotland wants pensions repackaged? How much? Etc, etc, etc.
Given tales of lost disks, laptops, etc., I just don't accept that anyhting will be simple. Or cheap.
One man's retreat into the cringe is another man's standing up and demanding realism and honesty.
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Thank you for your interesting and civil answers. I hope the travelling cabinet is as forthcoming. I am (slightly) reassured on the specific point raised.
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#141 brigadierjohn
We've establshed that we're of an age, so I want to secure my position too.
When I was younger, I may well have voted "Yes! Independence Now!, and thought about the details later. I wouldn't now.
In the discussion about referenda on a previous thread someone posted a joking(?) list of referenda including one on "Are you sure?" - not a bad idea.
The reason that I support the SNP strategy is the number of checks and balances that they build into the process.
If we get the referendum, I'll vote Yes.
If enough others agree, then negotiations will start. Serious problems will only arise if the UK Government was obdurate, but the Tories will be in power by then, and I don't think that they (unlike centralising Labour) will try to sabotage negotiations.
There would be a referendum on the outcome. If my pension gets slashed, my principles will probably go out of the window, and self-interest take over.
I'm not writing any party a blank cheque to do as they will with my future. I suspect that Salmond knows there are many like me - hence his gradualist approach.
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BrigadierJohn#106
Fair point, though it is up to the voters to decide who is emitting the greatest amount of ordure.
Please grow up, all of you who descend into pointless abuse. This blog is sbout discussing the current issues in politics, not scoring petty points off of each other.
Note that D Milliband has broken cover, and has refused to back G Brown
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#144
The most Senior Labour MP's realise that they will not win the election. The only Labour MP's complaining about how they need a change of Leader are those who risk loosing their seats at the next election.
The Labour Party should unite and fight back under Brown but pick their seats and defend them strategically so they are not sent back over the border or they will never win in 'Middle England' for some time.
Then a new Leader should take GB's place once they lost. There is no point changing Leader when they are destined to loose the election because the Leader will be told to resign anyway.
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As I have noted from the ongoing discussions, some of my points now appear to be bearing fruit, and there is more of a debate going on, rather than point scoring!
With regard to a referendum, may I pose a couple of points.
(i) What happens if Scotland votes to reject the notion of independence?
(ii) Should the referendum question be a 2 or 3 question paper?
(iii) If the status quo is retained, will there then be a period of peace (around 25 years or so) that we can get on with strengthening the Union in which we live - for the benefit of Scotland and the rest of the UK
(iv) If there is a yes vote, what are peoples opinions of the EU question? In or out?
(v) Following a yes vote, what are the aspirations of an independent state for the handover of defence etc establishments and how do we foresee an equitable share.
(vi) Again, if yes, how quickly do you see the nation state arising.
Finally apologies for the National Socialist jibe earlier - I hadn't thought it through. I was merely (attempting to )comment on the fact that the SNP is in fact the most socialist party (that matters) in Scotland just now and they are a national party - again apologies for my crassness.
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#146 donstim
re your questions (ii) to (vi)
We'll work through these if and when they arise.
In the first place there will be no referendum on the "notion of independence" as you call it.
I presume that you don't live in Scotland (where few people would describe its geographical aspects as "Central/West" and "Northern/Eastern" as you do), so you won't have a vote anyway. Feel free to ask questions, however, some of us may reply despite your crassness.
You have a little more grovelling to do before your apology will be accepted.
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Donstim:
(i) What happens if Scotland votes to reject the notion of independence?
The Pro-Independence supporters would continue to argue for Independence. It depends what is asked. If the people of Scotland vote for more devolution then we will be in a stronger position for Independence if more powers are successful.
(ii) Should the referendum question be a 2 or 3 question paper?
I would support the SNP's question. It's pretty straight forward.
(iii) If the status quo is retained, will there then be a period of peace (around 25 years or so) that we can get on with strengthening the Union in which we live - for the benefit of Scotland and the rest of the UK
I highly doubt the status quo will be kept. The Union will continue as it has for the past 300 years (If it won). Perhaps Labour and the Conservatives will strengthen Scotland since they are very close to loosing Scotland but I would not hold my breath.
iv) If there is a yes vote, what are peoples opinions of the EU question? In or out?
In. Why? The European Union is the future and we should be taking advantage of the economic oportunites.
(v) Following a yes vote, what are the aspirations of an independent state for the handover of defence etc establishments and how do we foresee an equitable share.
It depends what happens during the negociations. England may ask for more equipment in return they hand over something else.
(vi) Again, if yes, how quickly do you see the nation state arising.
I would have thought it would be done quickly. Investment would slow down and our allies would leave us in isolation untill we all know our positions.
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Does anyone know if they are coming to Aberdeen with they're little tour of the country. Id like to speak to them and check out some stuff thats troubling my poor brain.
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Oldnat #147
I do live in Scotland - in Moray to be exact and as such I think I will have a vote in any referendum - unless they are precanvassing and only giving votes to definite yes voters!!
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#149 rabbiehippo
You could try reading Brian's article at the top of this thread.
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I think the tour is to start the long, gentle process of getting the independance vote.
So if someone bumps into Alex and Co, please ask them the following:
What happens to people who have pensions from the military or civil service? Who pays for them?
What happens to defence?
What about energy? The SNP are against nuclear power so how do they intend to power the country? Perhaps a wind farm outside the Scottish Parliament would help.
Transport, taxation, time zones, passports, education, health, currency, benefits...........
What worries me is that when the independance referendum comes up, the SNP will put such a spin on it people will end up voting 'Yes' without proper regards to the consequences.
The Scottish Government are playing the old PR game, something that Alex Salmond is a master of.
But if it gets them out of the office.......
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#150 donstim
Of course you have a vote - every EU citizen resident in Scotland will have a vote, as long as they are on the electoral roll (unless the UK calls the referendum in which case only UK citizens, including ex-pats will have a vote). Congratulations on living in such a nice part of the country. I know it well.
My confusion was caused entirely by your unusual choice of language.
I may be wrong (forgive if I am - your forebears may have lived in the area for several thousand years!) but the tenor of your contributions suggest that you are relatively new to the debate - that would be surprising if you were a "local" in an area that has debated Home Rule/Independence for well over a hundred years.
Living where you do, I'm surprised that you don't ask some of the thousands of SNP voters that you live among about their hopes and aspirations. Even better, ask your MP or MSP - that's what they are there for.
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re 149
Oh aye right enough ... maybe it was just wishful thinking they would come here ana . Better nae keep them away from the beach for to long i suppose.
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Oldnat,
Thanks for your kind comments. I'm a native of Aberdeen but been up here for a dozen or so years. I know Angus (our MP) He's well aware of my views!!!! We are, it is fair to say, on different poles of the debate. I also knew Margaret well prior to her untimely demise and again we had good humoured debates on the issue from time to time. In fact, politically I would say we were fairly similar other than on this issue.
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#154 rabbiehippo
Yir doric disnae sim affa consistent. Hiv ye nae bin tae see the "Desperate Fishwives" fir a wee whilie?
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#152
re army pensions .... the Mod is trying to get out of paying a lot of army pensions just now as it is.
nuclear power.... handy but look at the clean up costs at Dounreay. People will just have to get start using less power. Besides i have a wind farm behind my house ... nothing wrong with it.
I think the reason more people are voting SNP is basically because the other 2 main partys have messed around for so long and why not see how the SNP getson. The only reason they are struggling is purely because they are in the minority, but they have some good ideas and hopefully we will see change.
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old nat .... aye i canna mak up ma mind wither te spik like this or speak proper ... must be the time of night . I am but a peer Keith loon .
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#155 donstim
We micht weel be related! Ma mither hid some gey queer folkies, that she widnae spik o'.
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#157 rabbiehippo
Aye, ye've got the richt o' it there.
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#158 rabbiehippo
At least we caused great difficulties for the mods! - always fun.
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#160 oldnat ... time ye wir in yer bed ... im workin (well supposed te be) so id better ging and dae sumthin .... goodnicht
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ps hivna seen the 'desperate fishwives' but understand wis the same folk that did 'Last tango in Powis ' .... class !
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Taking the Government to meet the people, L
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Labour cynics are not impressed with the Scottish Government tour, a PR stunt they claim.
In 2001 John Swinney conducted a similar tour, without question, his tours helped the SNP make the leap from opposition to Goverment.
From all reports thus far, the public in the areas visited have welcomed both the concept and the Government.
Would David Miliband adopt a similar touring policy ?
Wansanshoo.
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#152, 50% renewables by 2020 is the target, with 31% as an interim target by 2010.
It will not just be Wind Farms though,
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/glasgow_and_west/6031995.stm
we are also working on Large Scale Biomass...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/edinburgh_and_east/7513740.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/south_of_scotland/6752623.stm
Along with scotlands existing Hydro-Electric capacity and micro Generation such as CHP, Solar and Ground Source HEat Pumps etc...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renewable_energy_in_Scotland
... Scotland does not need dirty and dangerous Nuclear Power. The only folk wanting this are the corporate pleasing Labour and Tory party's as the Nuclear lobby have them in their pockets.
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#152
A few fair questions.
I would imagine,
Military pensions should be paid by Westminster...much like they pay the Ghurkas (albeit poorly) as military personel were employed by Westminster
Transport...we pay that (It will no doubt be better as there is a commitment to joined up transport.
Passports...Exactly as the Irish do.
Power...Def. no Nuclear...It is not the long term answer. It's clean up costs and risks outweigh any benefit.
DEFENITLY NO TRIDENT.
No E.U...as we would have to re-negotiate re-entry as an independant country..As will England. (I wonder who would be more succesful.
Time Zones...eh.
Alot of hard work ahead...Most of us are up for a challenge...are you, or do you prefer the comfort zone of just lurching along as we do just now.
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#143 oldnat:
"There would be a referendum on the outcome"
This is by no means clear. "Choosing Scotland's Future, section 5.11" actually argues against a second referendum.
Personally, I would want two referendums because I don't think enough detailed information would be available at the first referendum to allow people to make an informed decision.
However, as I've said in other threads, if Scotland has a referendum on the outcome of negotiations, then the rest of the UK should have one as well so that they can send the UK government back to the table if they think they haven't been represented properly.
As a cynic tho', I don't think any of these referendums will be resolved through "informed decision making". The decision will be based on peoples predudices (whether pro- or anti- independence).
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Re 152
Your comments on Nuclear power are wrong and display a lack of understanding of the issues. If the clean up costs of other energy sources were collated in the way nuclear costs are it would look good value for money. Anyway we don't need to worry we can let other people build the plants and we can buy the power then we can continue to live in denial. It is a poor policy to rely on imported gas or wind power that has been proven to be of limited use everywhere else it has been tried. Assuming of course you can get planning consent to build any windfarms. Tidal power is struggling due to the lack of real efort from the Scottish government both past and present, the current lot have now let SNH loose on the best site in Scotland to create conservation areas in the best bits. Typical politicans, speak with forked tongue.
I am sure the taxpayers of England will be chuffed to bits about paying the pensions of Scottish Citizens, don't you think they will want a contribution? We can then set up a new Scottish government department to manage this contibution, thus increasing public sector effieciency.
Tax collection, would we have our own system ? There are numerous other issues that need thought out.
One thing spectacularly missing from this debate are tangible benefits from Independence. Wee Eck has failed to make a convincing argument that details what way we will benefit from Independence. We know what we get from the current arrangement, I still feel that devoloution needs to be shown to work before we move on.
I am not resistant to change, but detest change for the sake of change or change as an excuse for poor performance. The argument has not been made for change. What we lack in Scotland is a good leader that has a vision for the future that is properly articulated.
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Northhighlander,
And we can't be having that, can we? Nothing must be allowed to stand in the way of our ever-increasing addiction to energy!And, we certainly can't let our Natural Heritage get in the way!Sad...
ed
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#169
The SNP aren't just a bunch of bumbling idiots. They aren't just waddling along chanting Independence without backing that up with the reasons they want it. Check out their website for their "vision for the future"
All their reasons and arguments are there to be read if you want to read them and I'm sure there are plenty people on this blog much more wisened than me who could point you in the right direction as to where to find them.
And how long does one have to accept poor performance before we eventually have to change as the only reasonable course of action to take?
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#162 rabbiehippo
Sorry about last night. I was worked up about the Labour and Tory scum supporting the Extradition Treaty, saw your "glorious leader" reference on Nick Robinson's blog, and thought you were one of them.
Am I forgiven?
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Re 170
I agree that the key to the future is to use less energy, much effort is required to reduce our energy useage. However in the short to medium term we ned alternatives to our base load generating capacity both fossil and nuclear as they are all nearing the end of their lifespan.
Changes in energy consumption are not going to happen overnight, they will take time. I am pointing out that Scotland requires a coherant realistic energy policy that embraces the need to change consumption habits but also how we are to generate. renewables will forma a part of that policy but cannot be realisticaly seen as the mainstay of the policy.
We are burying our heads over this issue, the french are going to build new nuclear plants and then we buy the electicity, so we are in fact supporting nuclear power but just not in our backyard.
governments past and present say they want challenging targets on renewables then bottle decisions on planning.
Currently SNH are being asked to highlight conservation areas ahead of the development of tidal power, no balance is being sought by the government.
We need a coherant policy that is realistic.
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Northhighlander,
And when do you estimate Scotland to become a net importer of energy? All the power from Robin Rigg is destined for England, and any profits will go to Germany...As to nuclear power, I've seen various estimates of available Uranium, the best bing 75-80 years' worth at present levels of use, so much lower if we (and/or others) have a "dash for nukes". Not exactly a solution, I guess, but then there's always the fast breeder option....the philosopher's stone and perpetual motion machine...
Meanwhile the sun rose today on an extra 219,000 mouths to feed, all of whom have just as much right to our spendthrift lifestyle as we have...
Running out of time
Slainte!
ed
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Ed 174#
Those 219,000 newly born are depending on Scotland staying in the union?
The spendthrift lifestyle is affected by our decision to stay in or to opt out of the union?
The reference to Robin Rigg by Peter Hain, a disgraced MP who resigned a cabinet position in order to save himself from a prison sentence. Not exactly trustworthy?
Wansanshoo
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tinyurl.com/63ldey
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Wansanshoo,
The other shoo will drop, eventually. BTW, it's 370,000 newborns, but we've got 151,000 corpses to dispose of... Scotland , however, is more or less in balance - one in, one out....and did I say Hain was trustworthy? Giving grants to foreigners to encourage them to develop our natural resources is hoe third world countries behave.
;-)
ed
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Thanks for that, Dorothy!
xx
ed
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#172 Oldnat do not worry i have thick skin. I thought maybe you had heartburn by the whisky you mentioned on Nick Robinsons blog #105 ! . I Will be here to protect your flank with some of my 'nuttier' comments well into the small hours again tho alas.
ps will maybe change back into Doric mode
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#174 Ed a letter from an Australian geologist in The New Scientist last year suggested that the Uranium deposits are unlikely to last another 30 years. China have snapped up most of the next five years market...
In local news, interesting to hear about the Robin Rigg, a chap at this cabinet event spoke about the potential to harness the tidal bore at Annan. With a tidal rise of seven metres. In some conditions the tidal bore reaches a height of about one metre and travels at about six to seven knots. A Hydro barrier there as simple as the one shown on Islay on last nights Rep Scotland, would be a fantastic alternative to Chapelcross.
One thing that Salmond said which struck me at the Crichton, was that Scotland (according to the Danes) has one-quarter of Europe's potential wind energy, Europe not the UK.
According to Scottishrenewables.com wind now produces 1367.68 MW compared to long established Hydros 1382.15 MW.
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oldnat and rabbiehippo: Yon isnae Doric, man. Doric disnae exist. Yer talkin' corrupted English, misspelled and spoken wi' a North-east accent.
Same wi' "Scots" - ye micht as well include Glesca. They're a' English, spoken wi' local accents, which some wee man has been daft enough to try tae write doon. Private Fraser's scripts, I fear. But older.
Like scouse and cockney, accents - not languages. Weren't we all doing fine in English? Ach, but it's fun.
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Ed 177#
So do you agree, Peter Hain is not trustworthy?
A referendum on independence has no bearing on births, deaths or spendthrift lifestyle, if agreed, then may I ask what the original post meant?
Wansanshoo.
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Err why has my comment at #180 been referred to the moderators?
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#152 i agree with #167 that the pensions for the millitary serving up until Independence is sorted should come from Westminster as thats pretty much who has been paying their wages. After 2010 it will be or should be down to the Scottish government to pay it for a potential army. By this i mean for services from 2010 onwards ... Westminster should still pay claimants before that as thats who they pretty much worked for at the time. That is should we get independence of course .
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Here's what I said in installments.
#174 Ed a letter from an Australian geologist in The New Scientist last year suggested that the Uranium deposits are unlikely to last another 30 years. China have snapped up most of the next five years market...
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In local news, interesting to hear about the Robin Rigg, a chap at this cabinet event spoke about the potential to harness the tidal bore at Annan. With a tidal rise of seven metres. In some conditions the tidal bore reaches a height of about one metre and travels at about six to seven knots. A Hydro barrier there as simple as the one shown on Islay on last nights Rep Scotland, would be a fantastic alternative to Chapelcross.
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One thing that Salmond said which struck me at the Crichton, was that Scotland (according to the Danes) has one-quarter of Europe's potential wind energy, Europe not the UK.
According to [Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator] wind now produces 1367.68 MW compared to long established Hydros 1382.15 MW.
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#181 brigadierjohn
You'll start another war of words with that comment and I must point out to you that English is a just mish mash of latin/french/german/norse etc, etc.
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#118 Jake: Touche (you'll just have to imagine the e-acute. I can't do it.)
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#189
I see we both suffer suffer from keyboard dyslexia.
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#181 brigadierjohn
I don't fall for every wind-up (just some) - but "Desperate Fishwives" is affa funny.
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Re 174
Energy choices are not straightofrward and simple. If we continue to use oil for making electricity then we don't have oil to make other oil related products that have no easy alternatives. So we should be looking at making the most efiecient use of the oil left.
So if we generate elctricity from Nuclear power, then we make the oil last longer. estimates on uranium reserves are varied but certainly most people agree more than 50 years appears realistic. However in the short term we have reactor fuel in the UK.
China has fuelled economic growth from a mixed basket including nuclear, fossil and renewables. If we become independant or just get our act together and start moving forward, we will need to fuel the promised economic growth form somewhere, so we should be hearing about an energy policy that looks beyond Hunterston and torness with some degree of credibility.
If we are to attract the inward investment to drive Scotland forward it has to be fuelled. uncertainty in this area will put potential investors off.
Again we have much rhetoric, little real policy that will make a diference. the whole debate is characterised by emotion and little fact. Politics works best when based on realism
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Wansanshoo,
, neither of which, strictly speaking, are the thread topic. ;-)My point of departure is the idea of Scottish self-sufficiency (energy via Northhighlander), and my deeply held localist views as indicated in #22, above. This leads to observations that a small, appropriately populated unit, currently a net exporter of energy (and food?) is in a good position to embark upon self-government.
On-topic, I thoroughly approve of the efforts to make the processes of such limited government as we need more visible to the governed, but, in the end,
Slainte!
ed
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#191 oldnat: Glad you're taking it as it was meant. Some awfy serious fowk prowl this blog. And yes, "Desperate Fishwives" is affa funny.
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Northhighlander,
like accepting third world status and crawling to the Trumps of the "developed" world?Small World
ed
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Please, enough with the 'inward investment'. The best thing to do would be to banish the phrase from Scottish politics. Appealing to the heart-strings of the diaspora isn't a worthwhile economic strategy. The sooner we realise this, the better.
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Nice one Brian. A whole blog talking about thr party in power and no mention whatever of NuLabour
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Nice one Brian, a whole blog with no mention whatever of NuLabour
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#196
I am interested for an explanation of diaspora in this context although its drifting away from the blog
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Is there a problem with the site?
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#200 Brigadier
That's no way to talk about me! :)
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#196: Tried three times to post this but nothing came up.
I agree with your sentiments about the diaspora and the begging bowl strategy. I don't think inward investment is the gift of the dispora. Take Ireland, the oft-cited example. Of course, their diaspora helped, but their infrastructure and tourist development was bought with EC grants, because they were in early and gained Category One development status. Eventually we paid for part of it, because when we joined the UK was a net contributor.
That's over now, and Ireland is struggling a bit and being bullied over their recent vote.
And independent Scotland in Europe would have to be a net contributor if the oil revenues are as predicted. So we could be propping up a relatively impoverished UK! Some say that's happening now, of course.
As for Trump and the like, we should grab what's offered without a blush. Nobody is truly independent.
If the new member states are half as smart as the Irish were, they are well placed to overtake us eventually.
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Speaking of diaspora, The biggest out-migration at present is of the ownership of major segments of our economy, e.g. the aforementioned Robin Rigg, to be built (in Scottish waters) by California-based financiers (Babcock Brown), operated by a Japanese-Dutch-American off-the-shelf company (OERL), and with the output bought and retailed to English customers by a German company (Eon).
Recently we learned that British Energy (our Nuke supplier) is also to become foreign-owned, no doubt with considerable UK government guarantees to cover the spent-fuel and nuke waste liabilities, which show as positive "assets" on the balance sheet. Much of the Water drunk south of the border is owned by foreigners, and "our own" Highland Spring is absentee-owned by Arabs - Imagine selling snow to Eskimos and water to Scots!
I am fortunate that we flush our toilets with better "hill" water than you can buy in the supermarkets for nearly the price of petrol!
Crazy world, eh?
Slainte!
ed
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diaspora:
(lowercase) any group migration or flight from a country or region; dispersion.
(lowercase) any group that has been dispersed outside its traditional homeland.
Hopefully not the only source of inward investment. Inward investment is not necessarily bad- it does, however need to be carefully inspected, prior to any granting of permission.
Will sound familiar to most North-East folk!
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#202 Brigadier
We are in agreement (this has to stop!).
I'm not terribly in favour of the Norwegian model with regard to oil revenues, yet having no membership of the EU, which would distribute some of them more widely to other Europeans.
I have always accepted that, in whatever association we are in with other nations when the constitutional dust has settled, Scotland was likely to be a net contributor.
Canada has a good model if we are in a Confederal structure, otherwise the EU concept is good (though I wouldn't give them a cent till they get their accounts audited!).
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Brig,
I wouldn't be surprised if he were expecting grant aid...It's an interesting stupidity of our present setup that if one owns a lot of land, there is public purse....and two thirds of Scotland is owned in parcels bigger than 1200 acres, often by absentees, (as with the aforementioned Blackford Estate)
Slainte
ed
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#204 gt-cri
Thank you but I undestand that meaning I just couldn't get my head round, and still can't, what #196 means. Think I must be thick Doh!
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201 oldnat: I can only imagine what a site you are!
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Gt-cri,
So Upper Case has another connotation? Does that hold true forCatastrophe?
Definitely off-topic, I suspect. Hi Mods!
Salaam/Shalom/Shanthi/Dorood/Peace
ed
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#207 Jake
I thing he's referring to "Homecoming 2009"
http://www.scotland.gov.uk/News/Releases/2008/06/16132725
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#208 Ed: I'm not sure if a foreigner could buy a ranch, for example, in America, Argentina, South Africa, Namibia or Australia, or how the locals would feel about it. If it were legal, I'm sure development would attract grants - same as it would for natives.
I am uneasy about it, though. I don't want to see anyone dispossessed without proper compensation, just because he's a wealthy foreigner. There has to be a better way withou our land.
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#210 oldnat
Appreciate that. Its good to know there is someone out there to help the slow sloggers like myself.
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Brig,
as usual, I'm not suggesting any solutions, only pointing out anomalies. What was left out was that owning land incurs no liability to contribute to the public purse, but an ability to draw upon it.
As to foreigners owning land elsewhere, it varies, but often comes with some sort of residence requirement and usually with a tax liability. Neither applies here.
There are more than 3 acres per Scot (including such furriners as myself), but, even with our eight acres, my family of four is under-quota, buy way ahead of the vast majority of Scots.
It used to be that when you challenged a big landowner he would refer to the fact that a large part of his holding was "useless moor and mountaintop", but recent "windfall" gains have made that less viable as an excuse - again, the rich get richer....In Denmark, most windfarms are community ventures...
Slainte
ed
P.S., Despite being the largest private landholdings in the UK (some 280,000 acres, give or take), the Buccleuch lands are managed by residents (including the owners), and are among the best-managed land in the country - sort of spikes our guns a bit...
No easy answers
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212 Brigadier
I thought it was a mistake to abolish (instead of reforming) feudalism.
A modern form would have retained all land "ownership" by the Crown. Those having control of it would pay feudal dues (replacing Council Tax), and could be dispossessed of it only by the Crown, via the Courts.
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Rabbiehippo
Any rumours of which councillors are allegedly leaking information in Aberdeen?
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OldNat,
I agree, and said so at the time, along with my friend Andy Wightman. My alternative hope was in line with what you suggest. Nobody can actually own the land.Slainte!
ed
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#213 and #214 Ed and oldnat: Thanks for that. I am a wee bit out of my depth with the technicalities, but I would imagine a sporting estate or a farm estate would have a rateable value, and would pay the appropriate rate?
I have no answers either, so maybe this is a dead end. One for the roadshow, to get back on subject.
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I think on the matter of land ownership its all a matter of who does it.
If a community is well regarded by its owner (business or group), receives excellent management and services then its pretty good. Conversely, the opposite can be true.
I suppose trusting the government it is just a safe middle ground. You won't get exceptional anything but it won't be 'that bad'.
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Aberdonian thoughts from a man reputed by some to have worn a "braw brass collar"
;-)
ed
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#216 Ed
Thanks for a look at the article. Must get a copy of the book.
It's a pity that this Act went through so early in the Parliament, when the knowledge and skills of the new MSPs were fairly low. Like the Education Act that went through the same year, there was almost no questioning of the proposals from any party.
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Brigadier,
In general, the trend is to tax improvements (which have generally been paid for out of already-taxed funds) rather than bare site value (my preference).Site value, takes into account any value added by "the community", e.g. road access, water/sewage, proximity to other services, neighbourhood quality, etc., for which it is reasonable to consider paying some "ground rent". If you wish to explore such ideas further, google "Henry George", or "Land Value Taxation", or read the essay I linked above from the "Gentleman an' scholar"...and the associated links. (Some may be out of date)
Just food for thought.
ed
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#220 old nat: Now that's a can o' worms! Ordinary folk like me are not clever enough, or informed enough, to contemplate the nuances of complicated legislation. I would suspect most of our MSPs feel the same. Even Parliament's lawyers are merely attempting to interpret politicians' will, and the MSPs, like me, are not really capable of knowing if it's right. I don't think, with respect to them, today's Parliament has the expertise.
I think you were right about reform as opposed to abolition. By and large, laws and statutes have edged forward over centuries, going back to The Common Law in England and Roman Law in Scotland. Well-meaning people, however bright, tamper at their peril.
Possibly a Law Commission, sitting more or less permanently, should be advising, non-politically, on new ideas to meet an evolving society. I don't like politicians jumping in with both feet.
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What is happening, why do my posts not accept?
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#173, NorthHighlander wrote: I agree that the key to the future is to use less energy, much effort is required to reduce our energy useage."
... sorry this is completely incorrect and is often muted as fact and mis-understood. At the moment we have to temporarily reduce energy consumption as it is mainly produced by fossil fuels and nuclear (both dirty methods of generation of electricity). However, the goal is to attempt to reduce carbon emmissions NOT reduce energy use.
Continued...
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You also wrote "Changes in energy consumption are not going to happen overnight.", "Scotland requires a coherant realistic energy policy that embraces the need to change consumption habits but also how we are to generate. Renewables will forma a part of that policy but cannot be realisticaly seen as the mainstay of the policy."
... again, you have obviously not read the links in my thread number 166. You insinuate that renewable technology is one part of a jigsaw, but it is not. Renewable energy is now so diverse with many technologies involved that it in itself is a solution (especially in Scotland).
Continued...
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Bongo,
Are you using any ampersands (&)? Or are there any &s hidden in any links you're trying to post? They're a sure killer for comments on these blogs.Some information on constructing links and getting & to appear.
Slainte
ed
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Am I paying tax money for a political circus to go on holiday round North Britain?
Or is King Alex the first taking his court to the people so he can hear grievances?
Good grief.
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#223: I has this earlier. It cleared. Must be a glitch somewhere, and very frustrating.
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#227
There is no such thing as 'North Britain' unless I have missed something in my map of Britain.
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Bongo, Brigadier, & all,
To avoid frustration, I always check to see if the wee one-liner saying "awaiting moderation" appears. If not, a quick click on the "back" arrow recovers my comment for an examination, and saves the frustration of re-typing while trying to recall the devastatingly clever original...
;-)
ed
Pereant, inquit, qui ante nos nostra dixerunt.
"Confound those who have said our remarks before us."
-- Aelius Donatus
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#227
Its No.2
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#215 Oldnat .... sorry im not privy to such info but this link is interesting
http://www.aberdeencity.gov.uk/acci/web/site/xac_Councillor.asp
Scottish Labour ... Scottish Conservative ooooh !
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#227 and #227 come on Thomas Porter .... dont you know anything north of Watford is the North of Britain, a bit vague i know considering it can be blawn drift here in Aberdeen and clear in Inverurie.... oooo dinna get me started on the beebs weather forecasts !
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#232 rabbiehippo
Thanks. I'll accept "Scottish Conservative". They are technically a different party, and I wouldn't like to be Cameron if he steps on to her turf without permission!
"Scottish Labour" is just the anagram of "Labour Hits Scots".
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#202,
Inward investment may not be the gift of the diaspora, but it's frequently touted as such by politicians. Not just the SNP, though they're pretty bad for it. Homecoming 2009 is just the latest episode. It's been going on for decades.
FirstGroup, a Scottish company, has taken over the Greyhound bus company in the US. They'll make a killing in the current market. That should be the dominant paradigm. But it's not.
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#232 Im sure some pedant will point out there are only 2 s's in Scottish Labour but aye your right shes a formidable woman. By the way should independence happen ......will we have to have our own DVLA ... and if so can we have tartan number plates !
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#236 rabbiehippo
OK so it's "Labour Hits Scot". But why are they picking on me?
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#237 oldnat from what ive seen you can hold your own.
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Scots Hit Labour [4 6]
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Or, considering Labour as a plural, "Labour hit Scots" will serve.
;-)
ed
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Cousteau,
Scot Labour *hit
Hi Mods! ;-)
ed
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Ewan,
You weren't by any chance trying to post a link to a pdf file? That's treated as a total heresy on these blogs, for some reason, and even if you post it without the (dot)suffix, it'll be treated as a "broken link"
The only way around it I've found is like this, but you might try here, as Dorothy did earlier, but not for a Portable Documant Format file...
On the other hand, you might have been actually rude! In any case, thanks for the local reports.
Cheers frae Palnackie!
ed
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Cheers Ed (226), I guessed something like that was up.
However BBC, if it is something like a daft charachter which is preventing my posts from being accepted, then I suggest an organisation as big as the BBC fix the god dam problem... It ain't rocket science guys!
Get it together.
Bongo.
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Re 225
Renewable energy is always developing and I welcome all development in this area. However i don't believe the technology is sufficiently developed to replace large generators like torness and hunterston in the next 10 years.
Also again i reiterate the politicians need to deliver, difficult planning decisions can't be bottled, progress over permissions for siting tidal power need progresed, none of this is actually happening at any where near the rate required.
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#244 northhighlander
I'm no expert in energy policy! However, my understanding is that Torness's current estimated end date is 2023, and that British Energy think it's life can safely be extended to 2040.
If we can't turn things round largely in the next 15 years, and certainly in the next 30 years, then we're all in deep doo doo anyway.
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Northhighlander,
We should be thinking of many smaller generators more widely distributed (every village it's own windfarm, every home it's solar/wind, etc.) rather than replacing huge generators.Distributed systems mean lower transmission losses, but the grid would remain for smoothing demand/output. It's also a fact that when a household becomes a source of its own power (even only partially) its overall usage drops, because we become more aware of wasteful habits and limits - a healthy transformation.
All these matters were the subject of a detailed study, but it's a pdf. Just google "Inquiry into Energy Issues for Scotland" or "Royal edinburgh society energy"
Slainte
ed
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If anyone is still awake as this thread draws to a close, you might want to check out the Herald article on the SNP analysis of recent polls
http://www.theherald.co.uk/politics/news/display.var.2414848.0.SNP_claim_polls_put_them_10_points_clear_of_Labour.php
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just read the nominees for Labour leader in Scotland. Dont want to seem nasty but Andy Grey has the same chin as Peter from Family Guy ...
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sorry i mean Andy Kerr
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... I wonder who of the three will be the next Lamb into Salmonds' Slaughter house?
*;o)
... In wendy's own words, bring it on!
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RE Nuclear Power .... oops front page on the BBC News website .... French not sure about taking over the running of Britains power stations .... sacre bleu, merde etc
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#246
Ed I entirely agree with your idea of the way future energy supplies should be made available I am even considering a windmill myself. Small communities would surely benifit.
What I can't understand is why large redundant industrial areas such as Ravenscraig have not been turned into windfarms instead of sticking them up willy nilly around the countryside.
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Glad you liked it Ed.
For those who missed it , here it is again and well worth a look,
tinyurl.com/63ldey
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#253
Great article and isn't such a relief that our system of democracy works. No bombs or bullets just pure public opinion.
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Rab (251)
Obviously not enough sweeteners from taxpayer funds.
;-(
ed
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#255 Would be unusuall if the government has included conditions that have put them off. From what ive been reading in most cases, especially PFI projects, the companies usually end up getting more money than quoted at the start. Maybe they were told that if they blew up a power station by accident then they wouldnt just be put on the naughty step :o)}
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#246 Jake a small turbine would be great but from what ive been told just now... solar panels to heat up your water are a waste of time and are purely for pampering peoples green credentials at the moment. Unfortunately the rules for where you can put one make it difficult for anyone wanting a wind turbine as i found out. :o(}
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#257 rabbiehippo
If they can put up 9 commercial from within .5 of a mile to 1.5 miles of my house (Still to be erected. Planning permission was refused but the Scottish Exec approved and overruled local planners) I don't see how the planners could refuse me.
I would agree that the solar panel idea is a little far fetched in Scotland.
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Rab,
According to the bbcIt's a few months (or more) since I last perused the annual reports, but I do remember that the "secretary of state's guarantee" to cover the costs of waste disposal, etc. was on the balance sheet as an aset, and was inflation-plus linked...So whoever does buy this bag of stinking glow-in-the-dark liabilities will no doubt insist upon that guarantee remaining, and we, the taxpayers will continue being the ultimate bag-carrier.
I note that the Pru is a 22% stakeholder, so a bunch of pension-holders are also in there. And I suspect it would be easier to speed planning permission for a grant-aided foreign inward investor, or is that me being excessively cynical?
;-)
ed
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Brian,
If you or anyone else from auntie actually reads this blog, could you point out to them that the website team have messed up the link to "SCOTTISH POLITICS" above your picture and the link to this thread.
It now links to the "Also in the news" site instead of the "Scotland politics" site. Some in Westminster may feel that is appropriate but I hope you'll convince them of the error of their ways.
BTW, the link to "SCOTTISH POLITICS" in the "MORE FROM POLITICS" section is still OK.
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Re #247 oldnat
I read the Herald article you quote last night and it certainly seems borne out by the regional voting intentions in the latest YouGov poll now being discussed on Nick Robinson's blog.
Articles in both the Grauniad and the Telegraph give us the "Janet & John" version of it, but for full details from YouGov in PDF format, click on Summary and/or Details. YouGov's polling methods seem much less subject to bias than the oddball polls produced during the Glasgow East campaign.
Despite being a small sample, the regional voting intentions for Scotland now put the SNP 14% ahead of Labour. I wonder why unionist papers overlooked mentioning that interesting fact. It certainly looks as though nobody could accuse the SNP of exaggerating their claims, but it would be interesting to have a larger sample to go on.
If Scottish Labour have anyone numerate left, they'll no doubt already have pointed out this cheery news to the loons fighting for the dagger with which to commit seppuku.
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Brownedov, I did enjoy that , particularly the last sentence.
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Calum Cashley's (SNP Candidate) website has an interesting analysis of Labour (Scotland) membership, culled from their accounts.
tinyurl.com/6f2us9
I've checked his numbers against their accounts, and they are correct.
The conclusion?
If every member paid the full rate there would be 3,178 Labour members in Scotland; if every member paid the concession there would be 9,534 Labour members in Scotland. The true figure will be somewhere in between (remembering that there will also be an adjustment for MPs and MSPs). No wonder Labour membership numbers in Scotland are secret.
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Re #262 DisgustedDorothy
Thanks.
Re #263 oldnat
So it's not just me who does the maths here. Well spotted.
Time to move on to Brian's new thread, methinks. #263 is well worth reposting there.
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Oldnat,
Those numbers constitute the sum total of folk in charge of determining who will be the official NuLabour candidate in each and every constituency!
I hate to admit it, but on this matter, the American "primary" system seems vastly more 'democratic'.
In Burns' Scotland, there were less than 3,000 eligible voters, and all of them landowning males, so we have come a long way, but there's some way to go yet....
Slainte
ed
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#258 sorry ed is should have stated that this was for a small turbine. I live in the country but my house is semi detached so the turbine would have to sit 200 metres away from next door which i cannot do. Fair enough if your house has no immediate neighbours then good luck. As for solar panels well my house is north south facing so i get a lot of sun but unfortunatly they dont heat up a great deal of water. Ive been told if you were running a bath you would need to put on the immersion heater as well.
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Brian:
I hope that you had a nice time on the tour bus....
~Dennis Junior~
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