Not technical, but fundamental
There is a fundamental contradiction at the core of the contest to become Scottish Labour leader. (See blogs and umpteen previous comments.)
That contradiction does not lie within the party's attitude towards a potential independence referendum - although that is a key question.
In essence, each of the main three contenders will defer a decision on that until a Bill is tabled in 2010.
No more "bring it on". Rather "put it off". Doesn't mean it won't be a tough call in 2010.
But does mean Labour won't decide now.
Rather, the immediate conundrum lies in the status and nature of the job itself.
The conundrum is this. Strictly, the job vacated by Wendy Alexander is that of "Leader of Labour in the Scottish Parliament."
Holyrood spotlight
It is a parliamentary post, not one carrying wider weight within the movement or the party apparatus.
This is particularly insisted upon by Labour MPs who dislike Holyrood's place in the spotlight.
However, if such is the case - and it is - then why is the voting franchise for the coming contest extended beyond Holyrood? To be blunt, why should Labour MPs be enabled to vote for a leader to whom they owe no allegiance?
If the post is "Scottish Labour Leader", in full, then it is perfectly valid, indeed essential, that all wings of the party, including MPs, union and constituency members, should have a say.
If the post is constrained, in effect, to leading the group at Holyrood, then is that not a decision for MSPs to take?
Sound technical? It's not, it's fundamental. The wider question is this: is there truly a Scottish Labour Party to lead? Or simply a branch organisation for the wider Labour Party?
Historically, the set-up north of the Border was the Labour Party (Scottish Council.) There was minimal devolution of policy or administrative power. The leader was the UK party leader. The governing body was the NEC in London.
Least devolved
When Jack McConnell was appointed general secretary of the party in Scotland, he and fellow contenders had to travel to Preston to accommodate UK union leaders who were attending a conference in nearby Blackpool.
Labour legislated for Scottish devolution but remains the least devolved of the UK parties. By definition, that leaves it trailing behind the Scottish National Party in terms of projecting a Scottish dimension in politics.
There are good reasons for this. A party with Socialist roots was perhaps intrinsically suspicious of nationalist or quasi-nationalist politics.
Labour was seemingly dominant in Scotland and was mistrustful of internal change. The temptation of inertia was strong.
Those reasons persist. However, the party has a choice. There always was, to some extent, a Scottish body politic: that is, a broad civic debate in which the interests of Scotland are to the fore and those parties thrive which adhere to those perceived Scottish interests.
That factor is now amplified several times over - not least since the arrival of the SNP in devolved government.
To varying degrees, Donald Dewar, Henry McLeish and Jack McConnell had to glance over their shoulder, had to accommodate London and wider UK party interests.
UK force
Alex Salmond, palpably and gleefully, does not.
There will be those in London who will argue, forcefully, that the party must remain a UK force, that it should not give ground to nationalism. There was and is a case for accommodating that perspective.
But, in current and foreseeable circumstances in Scotland, that perspective foreshadows continuing defeat north of the Border.
Jack McConnell knew that - and sought change, while struggling within the shackles of the compromises involved. Wendy Alexander knew that - and pursued a course which involved greater autonomy for the party in Scotland and its elected leader.
The main contenders in the forthcoming contest know it too.
I'm 
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~27~RS~)
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When are you going to write an article that properly addresses the SNP's astounding win in the Glasgow East by-election and what it means for the poltical future of Scotland?
We are sick of hearing about Labour's woes and how much of a busted flush they are.
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If the Scottish Labour party blocks an independence referendum in 2010 then of course such a decision will take place either under a Tory Govt or an impending Tory Govt.
The perception will be that Scottish Labour supports a Unionist Tory Govt and that it prefers this to Scottish independence.
An interesting situation which Scottish Labour will have difficulty defending. As a consequence Scottish Labour will loose heavily in the next Scottish election allowing the SNP to form a majority Govt.
I say "Bring it on" !!
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Spot on as usual, Brian.
Perhaps after the next electoral disaster, Labour will restructure, but their structural deadweight probably won't allow it.
It was notable that even Simon Jenkins in his Sunday Times piece referred to "London Labour".
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Kind of sums up the problems facing the "Scottish" Labour Party - They have to toe the London line, no matter the effect it has on the people that matter - The Scottish Voter!
If a week is a long time in Politics, then why would anyone wish to "lead" a party going nowhere, have to answer to London and basically be a lame duck and hung oot tae dry!! Good Luck whoever gets the job, because that's the problem for "Scottish" Labour - No personalities and no one stands out or can stand up to the FM!!
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Good, balanced blog Brian. I think people are starting to realise that, while devolution was fine for governing Scotland , it was not fine for the Labour Party in Scotland. Nor will this change.
You're right about Labour MPs not trusting, or even respecting, their colleagues in Holyrood. The reports of Jack McConnell, our First Minister, being regularly carpeted by Scottish Labour MPs when he said something they did not like was disgusting and wholly undemocratic.
They will never allow the MSPs the sort of autonomy that they need. Nor, it seems, do any of the candidates for Wendy's job want to upset that applecart.
Short of some sort of UDI in Labour in Scotland, the Labour Party is dying here.
The other unionist parties are also looking over their shoulders to the London leaderships, though they seem to be treated by their colleagues with a lot more respect.
It is clear that if you want a government that stands up for Scotland, then the SNP is the only real choice
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Quote, Brian Taylor, " A party with Socialist roots was perhaps intrinsically suspicious of nationalist or quasi-nationalist politics."
A little history lesson is in order for Brian Taylor on politics in Scotland.
The Scottish Labour party was founded in 1888 by Robert Cunninghame-Graham a life long Scottish nationalist.
The first, and only, Scottish Labour party MP was Robert Cunninghame-Graham (1888 to 1892).
Robert Cunninghame-Graham was also the very first socialist MP in the UK to sit at Westminster.
Robert Cunninghame-Graham disolved the Scottish Labour party in 1893.
Robert Cunninghame-Graham also help found the National Party of Scotland in 1928; and became the first president of the Scottish National Party in 1934.
Nationalism has more claim over a Scottish Labour party than any unionist pretending to be a socialist at Westminster or Holyrood.
History lessen ended.
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Labour are history.
Scottish Labour should be just that. Labour in Scotland, not another branch of the UK-wide Labour.
Why? It is quite simple really. Scottish Labour are being held back by their own kind. Scottish Labour are unwilling to create a better Scotland unless their bosses in London tell them.
How does this help Scotland? It does'nt and the Scottish Nationalists are here to act as an alternative. Should we be pleased? I would say so. The Nationalists will fight our corner and even the Tories will be unable to successfully Govern Britain without the Nationalists support up North.
It should all work out in the future. Whether Scotland remains in the Union or not, I doubt Cameron will be as aggressive as Gordon Brown towards the Scottish National Party and we will create a better Scotland.
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Personally, I don't give a damn who runs Labour in Scotland. Any of the 'gang of four' so far mentioned will be no match for Wee Eck and his team.
And does anyone remember dear old Jim Sillars and his break with London Labour with his Scottish Labour Party?
My own preferrence for Labour in Holyrood's leader would be Mr Gray. If that doesn't get them all greetin I don't know what will and then we'll have another failed Shadow FM. Roll on 2010!!!
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#2 Wee-Scamp
Thank you for posting some genuine analysis of what ordinary people in this country are thinking about and talking about with regard to Scotland's political future.
How much longer are the Scottish media going to pick over the bones of Labour's troubles instead of addressing the needs, concerns and aspirations of the Scottish people?
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Brian,
A key observation. Thanks for an excellent analysis. Hullabaloo's complaint only emphasises the old adage that misery is more newsworthy than joy.Scot2010, Well noted. I look forward to an independent Scotland with a full quota of viable Scottish parties, and by no means limited to clones or subordinates of the main "London three". We are made much richer by the so-called minority parties upon which PR has conferred viability. I anticipate their return in greater strength and diversity following independence.
Interesting times indeed. Slainte!
ed
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The SNP is primarily a single-issue party (independence) but has many factions within with regards to other policies; Scotland in the EU/fully independent of all unions, pro/anti-Euro, tax cuts/high public spending and so on.
A short while back, Salmond was accusing the Bank of trying to end Scottish banknotes....yet the SNP is pro-Euro which would obviously mean the end of Scottish banknotes!
To claim that Salmond does not have to pander to others is clearly not accurate.
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#2: Fair points. I think Scottish Labour will prefer a Tory UK Government to Scottish Independence. I think, also, that Cameron and Brown (or successor?) will reach a private agreement on how to deal with the consequences. In the context of Scotland, Tory and Labour are like Rangers and Celtic; fans and directors publicly attack each other with all the intensity of an Old Firm game, but at an economic level - which is all that really counts - they need each other and will defend each other. If, say, Hearts, split the Old Firm, that is very bad for Oldfirm plc. For all that people might enjoy Hearts v Rangers or Hearts v Celtic, there will never be the same money in it.
So come 2010, if there is a referendum, Tory and Labour will stand together (if not on the same platform) in defence of the union.
As for Labour "toeing the London line" isn't that where their powerbase lies and where such talent as they have plies its trade?
So, unless you buy the story that Cameron secretly wants a split UK, the Big Two will try to carry the day.
There is still a lot of water on this side of the bridge, however. When the huge bills for populist measures start to drop on Holyrood's desk, for example, and London refuses to play ball, the political complexion may change. I think this is what the "Referendum Now" people realise.
On the leadership, it will run it's course and Scottish Labour will continue to do as it's told. Imagine the chaos if they decided anything themselves!
As a Scot, I'd like to see a wholesale political realignment with politicians of all parties joining, as appropriate to their beliefs, in a Broad Right, Centrist, and Broad Left argument, with the extremists left dangling on the wings. That way we'd see how we truly stand, and where we might go as a country. Meantime, I simply don't trust the motives of political foes uniting under a party banner for short term gain. Any party.
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Reluctant-Expat:
You really are quit the typical Labour-supporter.
"The SNP is primarily a single-issue party."
The Scottish National Party are all about a better Scotland. Independence can only be won once they have shown Scotland can acheive better. The people of Scotland will always come first before Independence and it appears only Labour have a problem accepting this.
The Scottish National Party are Pro-European but Salmond made clear during one interview that they would continue with our current currency then the public will decide to join the Euro at some stage. The Scottish National Party will of course choose to campaign on the 'Euro' side and they have every right to do that. Just like the public has every right to accept or deny the 'Euro' if we simply do not want it.
It's what happens within Democracy.
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I bet you old Kier Hardie and Jimmy Maxton will be spinning in their graves. The demise of the Labour Party in Scotland should just be about complete as soon as they have elected their next leader......or should that read loser.
Perhaps then the media will give the SNP some credence
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To have a "Scottish Labour Leader" would require thwere to be a "Scottish Labour Party."
What we have now is a rag-bag of Labour Party members who happen to reside in Scotland.
A semi-split - akin to the CDU/CSU separation in Germany (CSU in Bavaria, CDU elsewhere) - would allow Scottish Labour to develop clearly defined Scottish policies for Scotland, without ceasing to be part of a greater Labour at Westminster and beyond.
Or, anyother way of achieving the same aims would be to establish a Scottish Labour party which would contest ONLY those elections (council and Holyrood) without any dimension external to Scotland, whilst allowing its members to also be members of a distinct Labour Party.
In opposition, does the Labour group at Holyrood need a leader; maybe they should get a week each...
...unless the 'leader' is entitled to more money, that is!
The love of money...
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Brian, it's a good analysis.
I believe that the parties in Scotland who take their orders directly from the UK parties (NuLab, Tory etc.) do themselves and the Scottish public no service. They must realise that not all people who vote SNP do so because of their policies, but rather that they do so because they believe that the SNP is the only credible party that does not have to answer to an English-based party and get approval for their policies and decisions from Westminster.
Personally, I would like to see strong Scottish-based parties from all parts of the political spectrum. I think this would help us to have a real choice in Scotland and also that we could chose parties based upon their policies rather than on whether they represent Scotland's best interest instead of only that of the greater UK interest which will always be English-focused simple because of the proportion of voters in the UK regions.
I firmly believe that all parties would have far more credibility and get a true share of the Scottish vote based upon their policies if they would break ties to the Westminster parties and put Scotland's interests first.
I would welcome a true Scottish Labour, Conservative, Lib/Dem, Green etc. party as without it, the SNP will become ever more powerful and will potentially be unchallenged (as they almost are already), and this is not a good thing for Scotland.
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#11 One of the reasons why I've been quite impressed with the SNP.
Why not have a party in the centre? Why not pick and choose the best options?
The problem with the new labour approach was that it was stuck in two areas.
Its economics were stuck firmly in the right wing pro-banker free market bias and its social and governmental strategy was stuck in the left wing with big government.
If labour had realised that everyone opinion is valid and important, not just the blessed few, they may not have become as irrelevant as they now are.
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#10 Ed
While I agree with having a range of choice via the smaller parties, that only works where is considerable consensus within the body politic. 19th century Presbyterianism could afford to splinter into sects/movements -
Auld Licht Burghers
Auld Licht Anti-Burghers
New Licht Burghers
New Licht Anti-Burghers
etc
because they differed over peripheral aspects of belief, and not the main issues. There is a huge consensus within Scotland on most social issues (not much in real terms to separate most MSPs in this or the last Parliament on issues except the Constitution.)
Where there are massive differences of belief (as in the 20th century between Socialism and Capitalism) large coalitions like Labour and Tory are required. Labour no longer has a reason for existence - except power for their elite).
Brian should perhaps, have said "Centralist" rather than "Socialist" roots. They are a construct of their historical past. They are the "walking dead", but haven't realised it yet.
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#18 oldnat
I'll go for the "New Licht Burghers". Can I upsize the fries?
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#11 Reluctant-Expat wrote "The SNP is primarily a single-issue party."
I couldn't agree more dude, the SNP blindly concentrate on the solitary issue of making Scotland an improved country.
Shame on them *;o)
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Oldnat,
I'd prefer it if such 'coalitions' were not formalised, but rather assembled (plus or minus some 'factions') on an 'as-needed' basis. I am not a fan of "whipping", etc., perhaps lacking the pre-requisite "public" school background....For example, I'm rather fond of our present Presiding Officer (he's my constituency MSP), but could never vote for him as a Conservative. I would love to see a parliament with a large contingent of members elected for their ability to take the broad view rather than their strict adherence to any party's dogma.I'm curious whether the aforementioned gentleman will stand as an independent in 2011, but I'll quite understand if he feels he has more than fulfilled his social duty, and wants to return to real life. If he does stand as an independent, I'd be unsurprised to see him re-elected with an increased majority - that's the kind of Scotland I enjoy being part of.
Slainte
ed
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Re #15 cousteau699
It also implies that there are enough of them to need leading.
Your idea of a week each until their electorates give them the boot seems eminently sensible.
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#11 Reluctant-expat
The link below perhaps gives you a good idea why we want to keep our bank notes.
It is also part of our group identity having our own bank notes, our own parliament and soon our own country.
I'm not a romantic either I'm a realist and independence is coming like it or not
http://www.rbs.com/about03.asp?id=ABOUT_US/OUR_HERITAGE/OUR_HISTORY/OUR_BANKNOTES/HISTORY_OF_OUR_BANKNOTES
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Brian,
Good to have you back, but what I don't understand is why those braces did not do a better job of protecting you when you had your fall?? Do they not latch on to your beach shorts so snugly;);)??
The early evidence is not encouraging for any real change with the potential leadership election for the Labour Party of Westminster in Scotland.
For example, I listened to Andy Kerr on GMS this morning and his only message seemed to be (as before) 'we need to get Salmond/the SNP' Not the slightest recognition that the LPoWiS needs to take stock and reflect seriously.
Then over the weekend, we have been subjected to Maggie Motormouth now putting herself forward for deputy leadership! Clearly her status as loser in Glasgow East has taught her absolutely nothing!
And now there's the news that another WAG - Charlie Gordon - wants to run for the leader's position! Another blog site suggests that he is just 'positioning himself to secure a shadow cabinet position from the new leader'!
Three of the principal Labour politicians in Scotland responsible for the ongoing rejection of their party by the electorate and not a single sign of remorse or humility between them.
I would not hold out much hope for the next generation of leadership of the LPoWiS!!
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On re-reading my #21, I was pleased to note that I haven't succumbed to the Americanism of referring to folk "running" for office. It amuses me that my three-plus decades here will probably have my linguistic usage deemed "archaic" by some (even within the BBC) who so readily embrace the invasion of American idiom....
Slainte!
ed
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#19 bighullabaloo
Is that French or Freedom?
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Who is going to pay for the campaigns of these losers?
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Brownedov
Did you see that Russell Johnstone has died?
Pity that the Lib-Dems won't have a candidate anything like his quality when they make their choice.
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Re #28 oldnat
Yes. Sad but anyone who gets to 75 hasn't done too badly. He would indeed have been somewhat more positive than the current lot both in Holyrood & Westminster.
I don't think this thread will run and run - it seems a shame to intrude on private grief so I'll look back later.
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# 27 oldnat -
"Who is going to pay for the campaigns of these losers?"
I don't know but I suppose we should be grateful that for once it isn't us! Also, it would be nice if they could manage to keep any campaign contributions within the rules.
Anyone ordinary joe who has read a newspaper in the last six months can tell you what the rules are, and what you should do if you are in any doubt about the legality of contributions.
Given all that, if there are any "unintentional wrongdoings" this time you'd have to be a single-celled amoeba to believe it, and the single cell would have to be the entire brain structure.
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I note that Andy Kerr has already said that the post he has applied for should have a wider role throughout Scotland. His suggested change to the electoral college seems to be to involve the cooncillors.
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Spot on Brian.There is of course no such thing in organisational terms as the "Scottish Labour Party".
With regards to the Leadership issue,a long drawn out and potentialy bruising contest ,elected by an "Electoral Collage " including Trade Union barons and Westminster MPs,will suggest "smoke filled rooms " redolent of Labour's bad old days (the last ones) to the voters.
It is interesting that all of the candidates are talking of "getting back to the issues that concern people".This is Labour-Speak for "no new thinking" .
Alex Salmond must be licking his lips at the idea of being able to blame not having a Referendum on Labour, with the Tories in power in London, and at the same time not having to risk all on the said vote.
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So, it's going to be a free election for leader of the Labour party in Scotland? Aye right , maybe I'm just being cynical but I suspect Brown has already decided who is to win the free election. It's not a great choice anyway and God forbid that any of them should ever be considered fit to be first minister. This is highly unlikely anyway, they will die of old age before Labour holds power in Scotland again.
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Are we now to see the birth of Nu-Nu Labour?
The teletubbies certainly speak more sense than most Lab MSPs.
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The BBC News website image of the four likely contenders (http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/44867000/jpg/_44867889_candidates.jpg) must case Labour hearts to sink.
Does any look like a statesman/woman in the making? (And these are images intended to show the politicians at their best.)
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Probably a clever move by Kerr.
To have credence within Labour in Scotland puts himself forward as a candidate for (non)leader.
Immediately announces the job should actually mean something (last thing London Labour want).
Loses the votes of the MPs/MEPs and the Unions, therefore, no chance of actually getting the job!
Hopes conditions might be better when Salmond has chewed up and spat out the poor fool who does get it.
Watch Gray and Jamieson following his lead!
Charlie Gordon might actually be picked.
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#36 oldnat
I hope they do pick Charlie.
Now there's a guy who knows a trick or two about plugging a budget black hole!
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It just gets better and better...
Is it possible that Charlie Gordon is an SNP 'sleeper' agent planted years ago to bring down Scottish Labour?
Can there be any other explanation?
And speaking of moles, who shopped Wendy? Could it be one of the new contenders? Or someone close to them?
... it just gets better and better.
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#39 QDurward
Good conspiracy theory, but I don't buy it.
Charlie is just one of these guys after power - from Glasgow so he joined Labour. If he'd been a Shetlander, he'd have joined the Liberals, or from Cheltenham, he'd have been a Tory.
We'll get the same type in the SNP soon. When they take over the party, I'll vote for a different party in an independent Scotland.
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Yes oldnat, you're quiet right... the SNP's rise to power will go hand in hand with the power hungry climbing on board.
The corollary: watch the young-but-power-hungry desert Labour (both in Scotland and the UK) as they come to realise that they might have no influence for a generation.
How many bright young things graduating in the next year or two are prepared to wait 25 years for a junior ministerial post? Not too many I think.
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#38 QDurward
Maybe it's like the Manchurian Candidate?
Salmond flashes the queen of diamonds from a deck of playing cards at Charlie during FMQs.
The card acts as a subconscious trigger.
Charlie goes out and sleepwalks into making serious errors in connection with two political donations of under £1,000.
Yep, that sounds more credible as an explanation for the whole Labour donations debacle as the one we were given!
Well spotted!
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#38: Re. Wendy's Mole...
Occasionally somebody does genuinely "walk into a doorpost" and give themself a black-eye. Looks like Wendy was that person...an accident looking for a veyr public place to happen.
#1: Re. the SNP story...
Actually I must agree, we would probably benefit from a bit more analysis of what the SNP appear to be doing right, rather than Labour's failures. - There does seem to be something right going on, and the Scottish Sub-Offices of the London Parties would probably benefit from attempting that analysis, rather than destructive introspection.?
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# 42 DrumoigHTH
I would say that for a group of politicians to do as much practical good as the SNP has done in their first year in office (especially as a minority government) is such an unusual occurence these days that it indeed deserves very close examination but I doubt we will see it here.
Clearly the SNP are managing the country well (doing things right) but also, as the management guru Peter Drucker would say, they are also showing the true hallmark of leadership (doing the right things).
There is an almost palpable surprise amongst many hundreds of thousands of ordinary people who are thinking to themselves: "hold on, this lot are doing things that actually help make things better for me rather than just sitting on their hands and taking the money."
This is what the Salmond means when he talks about "putting the interests of the Scottish people first".
People are beginning to see it is possible for politicians to act in ways that have meaningful and positive effects on their lives instead of the type of bloodsucking erosion of people's ability to improve their own lives through taxation and endless invasions of privacy that we have been used to for so long from Westminster governments of all hues, none of whom genuinely had Scotland's interests at heart.
One can only hope that people continue to warm to the idea of having Scots in charge of Scottish affairs in a proper independent Scottish parliament - where if you really wanted to or needed to you could get on a bus and go and speak to politicians face to face.
One can only hope that they begin to see the sense in having a vote that directly affects the make-up of a national parliament and therefore counts for a lot more than a tiny proportion of a UK wide vote for some remote London gravy train.
I think this rare phenomenon of having a government of the people, by the people, for the people, is something well worthy of media coverage and I look forward to reading it one day on our own Scottish broadcasting service website.
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Glenn Campbell doing the intro for Newsnight Scotland ".. and who will run the Labour Party in Scotland?"
Brian, we don't care what you look like, you have to protect us from this idiot!
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In the small time that the SNP have been in power is anything to go by, they have managed to avoid the banana skins that the Labour Party seem to find regularly. Ever since the untimely death of Donald Dewar, they seem to have gone from worse to even worse. It would be a brave person to take on the job and the media would be on his or her back from day one.
With regard to the SNP, I can see them being in power in Scotland for a long time as the electorate has gone off the Labour Party. The other parties are not even in the same planet as Labour or SNP and might as well not even stand for election in Scotland.
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In opposition, a political party has the luxury of time to develop new policies (possibly closer to their vanquishers', since those gained the greater support at the previous election) with the objective of winning the following time around.
Around a third of the way through this parliament, and what has Labour's Scottish faction done? Aside, that is, from shoot itself in the foot so many times, lead poisoning will be setting in.
Anyone think of a single positive contribution to the Scottish political scene during the past near-15 months...?
... except virtually guarantee SNP success in 2011!
More of the same then, please, Cathy/Andy/Iain/Charlie/Numptie#5.
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I can't believe Charlie has got the neck to stand. Wendy left over donations but Charlie was the one who solicited those donations so he is in deeper than Wendy was. He is clearly typical Glasgow mafia. Thinks he can play by his own rules with impunity. Wake up Charlie.
Labour are such a joke they are likely to pick him for leader. Alex 'supernat' Salmond must wonder when he is going to wake up from his dream.
Go Charlie
Freedom
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Interesting description of the contrardictions over leadership in te Labour Party , Brian.
But now could you explain it to your wee pal Glen Campbell? Who introduced Newsnight tonight with "..the contest to decide who will lead Labour in Scotland" As you have just explained Gordon Brown will continue to lead Labour in Scotland.
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On the subject of the leadership of the Labour group at Holyrood, it is of course right that it should receive some degree of attention, although I suspect that many will have difficulty in convincing themselves that it matters much any more.
On the subject of the late Russell Johnston, who has been mentioned above, he is the politician who, as I recall, made the case most forcefully for federalism in the 1970s:
"It is not enough for Liberals to say that federalism is what the majority of Scots want. We must be prepared to say specifically how it might work: face the difficulties and offer answers.
Obviously a small Party, with very limited resources, faces great problems in undertaking such an exercise and we will make mistakes, but that the basic pattern is right we are sure.
Federalism is a compromise worked out (...) in different ways according to different circumstances, between the wish of a community to run its own affairs and its recognition that there are things inevitably beyond its control, which nevertheless affect all it does and must be worked out in concert with like-minded, sympathetic communities." (Russell Johnston, MP, Leader, the Scottish Liberal Party, in an introduction to Scottish Self-Government, A Fresh Start with Federalism, a pamphlet of proposals from the Federal Unit of the SLP, June 1976)
I am sorry that he is no longer with us. He persuaded me that federalism was the ideal constitutional arrangement for the UK . . . until it became clear to me that the UK Liberal Party and the successor UK Lib Dems were not nearly as interested in it as he was and until I realized that no political party would or could ever deliver it, because the English would need to be persuaded to accept it, and there is no chance of that. Politics is the art of the possible. Whereas federalism may arguably be more desirable than independence in theory, our choices concern what is practicable. I concluded that, whereas a federal UK would never come to pass, an independent Scotland might. As time has passed, that "might" became more of a "may", and that "may" is now beginning to turn into a "will".
Although Russell Johnson is no more, my thoughts turn more readily to his past contribution to Scottish politics and the constitutional debate than to the contest to see which of several Labour mediocrities will succeed in becoming the leader of a spent force, whose relevance to the future of Scotland diminishes as each day passes.
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Re #44, oldnat
Glenn Campbell doing the intro for Newsnight Scotland ".. and who will run the Labour Party in Scotland?"
I wondered if "run" was a misprint for "ruin"; then I realised, it would be too late to ruin it.
I don't know where Keir Hardie is buried, but I suspect houses in the area might well have been devalued over recent years by the spinning sounds coming from the graveyard.
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ahh brian
finally i understand why the MPs and indeed the prime minister look down on the scottish parliament.
If there is a scottish labour leader then MPs take their orders from this leader if there is not then they take it from the prime minister as does the leader of the labour group in the scottish parliament.
Reminds me of the saying no man can serve two masters for he will love one and despise the other..
Also reminds me of the saying about power and freedom
"Freedom is actually a bigger game than power. Power is about what you can control. Freedom is about what you can unleash"
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Great - it's Charlie!
Newsnight Scotland on BBC have decided to interview him and Katy Clark MP.
For those of you outwith Scotland at the moment, I'll give you a running commentary -
Katy's point - "there has to be a strong relationship between MPs and MSPs"and "It's unhelpful to concentrate on Gordon Brown".
Glenn Campbell giving feeds to them (I think I'm going to be sick).
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Sorry folks. I didn't relate any of Charlie's statements. Unfortunately, I have a hearing problem which means that vacuous garbage get's filtered out.
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Re my #36
http://news.scotsman.com/politics/Scots-39seek-distance39-from-Westminster.4332705.jp
That was fast!
Brian had it spot on in his last sentence. The 3 "main contenders" have wiped themselves out.
Charlie, your political death at Salmond's hand will be delicious - but probably won't last long.
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"The wider question is this: is there truly a Scottish Labour Party to lead? Or simply a branch organisation for the wider Labour Party?" The answer is simple. Search the website of the Electoral Commission. There is no such organisation as the Scottish Labour Party. It is purely a branch of London Labour and it is dishonest for them to put "Scottish" on ballot papers. But then, dishonesty is an art form for this lot...
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Charlie Gordon
"It was a serious mistake, I immediately stood down from the Labour frontbench, I co-operated in full, I reported myself to the Electoral Commission and when they looked at it, while they told me I had been extremely careless, they didn't report me to the prosecution authorities."
The question remains unanswered, why was Charlie Gordon MSP allowed to break the law with impunity?
Wansanshoo
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What is that rubbish The Mail was sprouting about the SNP joining forces with the tories ... shurely it cant be true. I dont usually read The Mail .... honest!
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I'm SNP and I share the joy which Glasgow East has brought us, and like watching the corrupt so-called Scottish Labour Party go into meltdown from its own internal contradictions. There is a big rotten borough there which needs cleaning out.
We need to watch out for the careerists who will want to leave the sinking ship.
I'm beginning to be worried about the poor quality of the opposition. Let's hope that by the time independence comes, the honest and intelligent people in that party will have got their act together. That way there will be a decent opposition, without which ruling parties tend to over-reach themselves.
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#57 Don't believe all you read in The Mail .......it is a Tory rag after all. Don't be ashamed of reading it as we have to keep an eye on the opposition.
BBC on line news has quoted Ms Jamieson saying she is the right person to "unite and re-build" the Labour Party in Scotland. Should she not have said "divide and dismantle"!!
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#59
Hey i dont believe anything i read in ANY newspaper... especially the red tops. Private Eye is what i generally trust to report the facts altho even they sometimes get it wrong .
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Re BBC coverage of the Labour Holyrood leadership campaign.
When Wendy was being outclassed by the FM in FMQs, she was asked repeatedly that she led the Labour group, not the Scottish Labour Party, which does not exist (at least, not since Sillars and Neil). This was months ago. Depressing then to see and read the morning breakfast bulletins on BBC1 and the website, which refer to candidates for the Scottish Labour leader. I've complained to the BBC about this, but do not expect them to mend their ways.
This is lazy and incompetent journalism as it implies that whoever wins will be running Labour in Scotland. Only one person doing that, G Brown (for the moment). The chance of Labour developing coherent policies for Scotland is remote under this setup as they run scared of the Daily Mail reading voters in the marginals in the S East. Social democracy, don't make me laugh! The SNP has done more in a year to unravel Tory policies than Labour in 11
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Newsnight Scotland:
Why is Lorraine Davidson of the Times - a "former Labour spin doctor" - being fronted up as some sort of unbiased commentator on Scottish politics?
It's very sneaky to first show her job title on the screen during the first interview segment at "Lorraine Davidson 'The Times'" then a few minutes later to redesignate her as "former Labourt spin doctor" when people are no longer read the job title as naturally they assume it's just a repeat of the first one.
Davidson wrongly estimated that the SNP had won by "1,500 votes" on the night of the by-election result, which just shows what her true beliefs are about the extent of Labour support in Scotland, as opposed to the pro-Labour rhetoric she spouted in this interview.
The Scottish public deserve better than this.
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Oh good grief, Charlie Gordon thinks his "mistake" in soliciting illegal campaign donations doesn't and shouldn't prevent him running for Labour leader in Holyrood.
Can you imagine anyone in private industry expecting to be able to argue they should be trusted for a top post after admitting a similar offence?
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Charlie says lots of people in Glasgow East told him not to worry that they were going to vote SNP in this election; they would vote Labour again at the next General Election and - here's the funny bit - Charlie believed them!! I suppose there isn't any chance that they were just trying to get rid of him without hurting his feelings?
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If a Labour leadership contest was to develope down south of Hadrian's Wall in view of the fact the Mail is suggesting "Boy Wonder" Milliband and "Postman Pat" Johnson" as the dream team, how will that affect Labours woes in Scotland?
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Brian:
"There are good reasons for this. A party with Socialist roots was perhaps intrinsically suspicious of nationalist or quasi-nationalist politics."
It hasn't stopped the Labour Party promoting an oafish, in-your-face Britishness, as silly as anything the SNP churn out.
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#62
I have to say that I noticed the change in Lorraine Davidson's description between her comments on Newsnight - very odd, and not something I've seen before.
I'd like to hear the BBC's reasoning behind it.
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Re #64 bighullabaloo
LOL
Re #65 Jake-the-saltire
Presumably one of them would have to take on the Harperson for the "deputy dawg" spot. I don't think either is brave enough for that - much more fearsome than facing down "Duff" Gordon.
At least what minds the Scottish "London Labour" MPs have will be concentrated elsewhere, perhaps leaving the MSPs to make their next blunder unaided by wisdom from Westminster.
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This whole issue is to me at the root of Labour's problems in Scotland. The Scottish Parliament was John Smith's dream but Blair and co didn't like it because the idea of giving power and autonomy to the grass roots went against their control freak tendency. Labour, in general has never liked devolution. If you've studied the events leading up to the 1979 referendum you'll see that of the 3 unionists parties, it was Labour that was split down the middle on the issue, the Tories and the Liberals were more or less united on either side of the argument. Blair was determined to keep control of events in Scotland so apart from Donald Dewar, Labour sent the B team to Holyrood so no one would get above themselves. This has backfired on them as they have no one with the clout to take on Salmond. They would have been in a better shape in Scotland if someone like John Reid had been in charge. Give Alexander some credit, I think she could see how the wind is at the SNP's back and saw the "bring it on" moment as a way of regaining the initiative. But, if we believe the media, Gordon Brown bottled out of supporting it and MP's like Des Browne, who are too remote from events on the ground to realise how much has changed were opposed to it. The irony of that is Browne is likely to be one of the Labour MPs who'll be unseated by the SNP.
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PS to my #68
At least the Holyrood shower fighting for this glass of poison aren't actually in charge of anything.
If you want scary, look no further than this website's I'm minding the shop, says Harman.
Presumably the No.10 spokesman's denial is to avoid that lady's forecast stampede for the airports.
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Contenders need to address the whole structure of scottish labour. Galsgoweast wasan orgnisational shambles for labour as was the last holyrood election. London is only one problem.
labour has a dominant west of scotland /central belt core that needs tackled, they must broaden appeal and reinvent the party. Needs a leader of vision and courage, don't see any candidates who inspire. Wee eck will no be shakin in his boots
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And, while I'm on the subject, would whoever is Labour's current spin doctor please explain to their Labour MSPs that when they appear on television and momentarily think they are out of camera shot, do not make sudden little sideways glances. It makes them look like they're worried the Old Bill is suddenly going to appear at any moment and cart them off in handcuffs. So, in summary: TV + shifty eye movements = not good.
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Does anyone think the Ms Jamieson and Ms Curran would be a good team.........a bit like Labours version of the Cheeky Girls. And then if we get a geeky Lib Dem man as that party leader in Scotland the tabloids would be in heaven.
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#70
Would you buy double glazing from the people posing in the foto http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7529406.stm
GB looks like he is on a diet of LSD
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#73 Jake-the-saltire
Two words: "Fran" and "Anna".
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#74 jake -
That photo shows the moment when a hard-pressed Labour voter told them on the doorstep: "Sorry I haven't got time to talk right now.
"I'm being evicted out of this house in an hour because some idiot abolished the 10p tax rate."
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Putting Scottish interests to the fore in Scotland, and in the service of the Scottish people?
Now there's a radical conundrum - especially for London-dominated (New) Labour.
With regard to being the least devolved of all UK parties, though - Labour has historically Scottish as well as socialist roots.
Weren't Keir Hardy and other 'founding fathers' fundamental home-rulers??
If, as appears the case, that early philosophy managed to morph into such a deeply ingrained suspicion and antipathy towards "nationalism" - i.e. the right of the Scottish people to self-determination - then Labour's problems begin to look a lot more like a historical and inherently flawed legacy.
Labour MPs' insistence on having their cake and eating it is core to their troubles:
Seeking to command Holyrood whilst opposed to raising the Parliament's profile;
Seeking a competent Holyrood leader, but opposed to being "above" that leader.
It is a debacle entirely of their own making - and they are more than welcome to it!
:-)
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Re #77
For "above", read "beneath".
Cheers. :-)
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The fundamental problem with 'Scottish' Labour can be seen from their response to local income tax. There's a lot wrong in detail with the SNP's proposal, but what's unquestionable is that it benefits the working and non-working poor, who are Labour's traditional core vote. They'll pay less. It won't benefit high-income groups, because they'll have to pay more.
So why does 'Scottish' Labour oppose it so vehemently? Why are they telling such unconvincing untruths to oppose it? Because London Labour needs the support of middle and upper income groups in the south-east of England, and fears that if local income tax is adopted in Scotland, there will be pressure for it to be adopted in England, too.
So 'Scottish' Labour are forced to act against the interests of their own core electorate - the people they need to turn out for them - in order to appease London headquarters. This isn't tenable even in the short term: if Labour is to survive in Scotland, even as a minority party, it has to declare UDI.
Scotland is no longer the 'natural' party of the centre left in Scotland. That is now the SNP's territory. And the centre left of Scottish politics is considerably left of the centre left of UK politics. 'Scottish' Labour simply cannot sell policies which are tuned for English voters, to its traditional voters in Scotland. It has to move left, to sit between the SNP and the various Socialist f(r)actions. It cannot do that while a branch-office of a London party machine.
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The labour contenders wouldn't sell me double glazing, however neither would any of the rest of the current holyrood squad irrespective of what party they belong to.
We ned a politician that wil behave without the arrogance of wee eck, without the hamfistedness of wendy, with some degree of original thought unlike the Lib dems, some realism that the tories lack. We need a real leader! I see nothing on the horizon
The labour contenders should level with the public over the referendum now, bring it on, get it over with for another 20 years. Then we can move on and focus on the real challenge for the nation, how to fulfill our potential and become the nation we can be, focussing on a positive direction as opposed to the current divisive agenda. People want a bright vision of the future, we need smeone to articulate a vision that we can all believe in
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#75 bighullabaloo
Think I would be voting for Fran and Anna before the Nu Labour "Cheeky Girls"
It is just so dissappointing that there are no decent Labour politicians in the Scottish Parliament and none waiting in the wings.
I think this Brian's blog shows Labour for what they are in Scotland........a joke.
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Brian
All this is and was entirely predictable.
Once Labour opened the Pandora's Box of partial devolution there was bound to be conflict and contradiction between the people on the ground in Scotland and the Westminster mob.
Time to start talking a bit more about what happens next, and in 2010 and afterwards, rather than obsessing about Labour's internal problems.
After all, you are "BBC Scotland's political editor", not it's Labour Party correspondent!
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#80 northhighlander
Do you have anyone in mind because if you do bring them on?
At the moment there isn't one who could match "wee eck" whom I hardly think you can accuse of being arrogant.
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#80 northhighlander
Try reading this politician's vision.
Sounds exactly like what you say you want:
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/7357068.stm
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One final attempt to get a post on this thread...
Is the key problem for Labour not this; that having achieved Scottish over-representation in Westminster Govt...there is not enough talent left at Holyrood.
For Labour, an MSP is by-and-large a candidate who was not able to get a Westminster seat? - While the SNP seem to have conveyed a sense of worth in Holyrood, that it is not "second-best" to participate in the govt of Scotland.
So there is a fundamental division between parties who either regard Holyrood as worthy of their best, or as a place for your 2nd string members.
The party (whatever colour) who win the next Holyrood election will have to demonstrate that they respect Holyrood in it's own right, and are not gazing longingly at London.
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#79 Simon Brooke: The Local Income Tax proposal suits me fine, as my only income is an occupational pension which equates to the Mimimum Wage for a 40-hour week. My Council Tax is £186 a month. But my family are all in their 30s, in severe danger of falling into negative equity, and despite good-ish salaries would find it very hard to pay. Looked at unselfishly, many independent financial analysts seem to think the overall tax "take" by the Government would fall, leaving a huge Black Hole. So, it's not just Labour being awkward.
The SNP position on PFI looks like another Black Hole in the making, although well-intentioned.
My own worry is that all the "goodies" currently being handed out by the SNP Government have also to be paid for. In the medium term, the tax implications - if we had a separate tax-raising fiscal system - look horrendous for everyone in Scotland. There are no free lunches from any Government.
I'm sure there are answers to my fears, but, with respect, I want to hear them from independent sources, if such a thing exists.
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Brian,
When you wrote, "To be blunt, why should Labour MPs be enabled to vote for a leader to whom they owe no allegiance?", did you see the irony with the position of Scottish MPs at Westminster. Many people in England are asking the question: "To be blunt, why should Scottish MPs be enabled to vote on legislation affecting people in England to whom they owe no allegiance?"
Many of the pro-independence bloggers here can see no problem with the latter, so why do they see a problem with the former?
Just asking, as they say.
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Re #74 Jake-the-saltire
Spot on. It's the Harperson doing Michael Howard impressions to be very afraid of.
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#87
Unless and until England gains a seperate legislature - or independence - Scottish MPs should retain full voting rights as full members of a UK parliament.
This is not an issue that unduly affects the SNP, who do not vote on English-only matters on principle, but only serves to compound the problems of the Labour Party.
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Re #72 bighullabaloo
I think they're just emulating "Duff" Gordon's look.
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Re #76 bighullabaloo
LOL
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Re #79 Simon_Brooke
Good analysis. London Labour are now to the right of Cameron's Tories and any clawing back of "old" values in a funding deal with the unions will at most bring them back to the Centre-Right at best.
One "Sorry, I got it wrong" speech from "Duff" Gordon could have saved him but I think he's now definitively been demoted from Captain Scott to Private Frazer in public esteem.
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Re #87 MalcolmW2
"...why should Scottish MPs be enabled to vote on legislation affecting people in England to whom they owe no allegiance?"
Many of the pro-independence bloggers here can see no problem with the latter, so why do they see a problem with the former?"
But they DO see a problem with the latter. All bar Labour's Scottish MPs have recused themselves from voting on English-only matters.
With an overwhelming number of English MPs sitting in Westminster compared to the other 3 UK Countries, they could recall Parliament and vote for English devolution tomorrow if they wished. The fact that English voters gave Labour majorities in 2001 and 2005 without making them complete their partial devolution is something for them to consider again at the next general election.
Let's hope that prospect brightens "Duff" Gordon's hols.
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With most contests we normally get 1st, 2nd, 3rd, or in Olympic spirit, Gold, Silver and Bronze; usually the also rans are only listed below the fold, whereas in the up and coming Labour Leadership Contest it is merely a race of also rans.
You could be excused for thinking Alex Salmond selected those to compete for Labour's top job in Scotland.
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Brian,
You asked: "is there truly a Scottish Labour Party to lead? Or simply a branch organisation for the wider Labour Party?"
The truth is: unless both the Scottish Labour Party and the one in Westminster cease from giving higher priority to the "interests of the Party" before the interests of the people; there will not be a Labour Party worth leading.
As for the three main contenders who will do battle to be the next leader of Scottish Labour; their qualities are so poor, it's like watching the deck chairs on the Titanic being re-arranged.
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