Business as usual?
So what have our political leaders been saying about the events in Glasgow East? Cataclysm? Or small earthquake in Shettleston, not many voted?
Neither, thankfully. The odd indulgence aside, the SNP has, mostly, disavowed bombast - and focused on demanding policy changes on the issues that concerned the voters in the by-election: food, fuel, the economy.
Labour has sensibly rejected any suggestion that this is a minor matter - while, of course, asserting that the constituency will return their way at a General Election.
However, far from resigning, Gordon Brown said he was going to carry on working in the public interest.
Business, as he wisely didn't quite say, as usual.
Why wisely? Because business as recently usual got Labour into this mess - and won't get them out.
David Cameron called for a General Election (see previous blog.) And the Tories and LibDems traded insults over who had trailed the other two most successfully - and why.
According to the Tories, the secondary message from Glasgow East was that the LibDems were bust.
Absolutely. I can just picture voters going to the polls in Parkhead and saying, grimly, through gritted teeth: "Am I ever going to stick it to those smug LibDem ...........?"
According to the LibDems, this was an awful result for the Tories. OK, so they took third place. Big deal. Where's your Cameron bounce?
Children, enough. This result says very little about either of your parties - except that the Tories contrived to resist a squeeze better than the Libs in line with recent polls. Cease squabbling over the scraps.
Oh, and trade union leader Paul Kenny said there should now be a Labour leadership contest. Not necessarily to kick GB out, you understand. No, no. It would help deliver a strong verdict either way. Aye - as they say in Shettleston - right.
PS: Labour's Scottish leadership contest, delayed because of the by-election, will now get under way. Margaret Curran, anyone? Or might she be charged with regaining Glasgow East at the UK General Election, given that her Holyrood seat faces possible amalgamation?
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A wonderful result for the SNP and for Scotland. The "meedja" might just sensibly begin to give a balanced view on the SNP and what it is they are aiming for. I would start by saying they want the best for Scotland and also have a "hard" line on Independence. Calling Mason a hardliner served to make sure that everyone knew that the SNP were in favour of Independence. (as if that information was needed)
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Nu Labour box office hit:
"carry on working in the public interest"
will be on your tv and in the cinema for the next two years.
Keep it up Gordon.
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Sorry to hear you fell Brian,I take it some idiot left a bottle of retsina in your way and you couldn't avoid it. Margaret Curran has also tripped I fancy, she has now had it in the Labour leadership race: losers are unlikely to get a second chance from big brother in Dunfermline.Though he, if the Unions have their way, may very well be fighting for survival as well before too long.
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Alex Salmond must feel his birthday and Christmas have come at once. Not only is there this stunning victory to celebrate, but he now seems absolutely certain to be left facing a weak Labour leader in Holyrood.
Curran can't possibly stand now - as "the woman who lost Glasgow East", she'd be a sitting duck every time she stood up to ask a question. (Which is a neat trick.)
Iain Gray's unforgettable evisceration by Gordon Brewer on Newsnight over the referendum fiasco shows that he'd collapse like a house of wet cards in the face of a Salmond onslaught, stuttering and stumbling and looking helplessly for the exit as the laughter rang out around him.
Andy Kerr looks like he might show a rare piece of wisdom in declining to even take a shot at winning this poisoned chalice. If he does he's probably the best of a truly embarrassing bunch, but that's more an indictment of the scarcely-believable lack of talent available to Labour in Scotland than an endorsement of his merits, because he's little more than a blustering numpty.
Which leaves the hot favourite as... Cathy Jamieson (as played by Jonathan Watson). And the First Minister, well-ballasted as he is, must still be having to wear lead weights in his shoes to keep him from floating off into the air at that prospect. Shrill hectoring didn't work for Wendy Alexander or Margaret Curran and it won't work for Cathy, the shrillest and most hectoring of all in the party's Screeching Harridan Battalion.
Labour in Scotland are nothing but a joke now, which is all very well for SNP supporters but bad news for democracy. Frankly they'd do better, and do more good for Scotland, if they walked into Shettleston JobCentre and picked the first 46 jobseekers they met to replace their entire Holyrood ranks.
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Brian
We used to chant Wendy must stay. The mantra now is surely both Broons and all the rest of the comic cuts must stay.
Election night 2010 will be priceless, we understand peoples pain, lessons will be learned, global crisis take your pick.
The Labour party always used to say that to have a mandate for independence the SNP would need to win a majority of the Westminster seats. That will change now, the cry will be the people must be given a referendum to make their choice.
Ether way win win, game set and no more union.
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There is one thing I loved about last night...apart from the SNP victory, and that is the vision I have of the smug look being wiped from the face of the Daily record Owners/Journalists. Apart from Labour no longer being allowed to use the people of Scotland, it appears that the great Glasgow East electorate have told the red tops the same. The sooner these rags disappear with their biased mickey mouse reporting the better.
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I detest Labour and dislike Gordon Brown more heartily than anyone in the SNP. If he falls I'll not weep, but I won't kick him as he lies on the ground wounded.
So, to be fair to Brown, he has been desperately unlucky: within hours of becoming PM he had the terrorist incidents in Glasgow and London, quickly folowed by major and serious flooding in England. Then came foot-and-mouth disease and blue-tongue disease in farm animals. Just as he tried to steady himself came Northern Rock. And now we have the financial crisis and huge hikes in prices of food and fuel.
Brown caused none of these himself, (unless you want to bring in some very tenuous linkage) and it's arguable whether he can do much now. So a tough year for any incoming PM.
Of course there's Iraq. And his failure to put funds aside in the good times (we now know the last 10 years HAVE been good times for most of us, relatively speaking) against the rainy day we are now experiencing. And, yes, he's a bit of a ditherer.
But surely he's got the message now? So I'm prepared to give him six months to begin a recovery, and the rest of his term to make a real difference. Otherwise....
Many people here have been screaming for fairness and even-handedness from the BBC and the Press. Nobody has offered the same courtesy to Brown. It seems fairness is a one-way street for some people.
So, much as I dislike the man, I'd like to put the case that he's an unlucky and mildly incompetent PM, whose days may be numbered. But definitely not some evil monster.
To the SNP people, I say: Enjoy the moment. It's well deserved. Don't lose your great moment in a splurge of spiteful character assassination.
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This is chickens coming home to roost time for Labour (speaking as a Labour party member)
Party organisation: On the ground ,nonexistent. Recall that less than 50 Labour Patty members turned up to select Margaret Curran, The candidates who turned up on the night of the no show weren?t even considered good enough to make that selection.
Talent: Too many bench warmers not enough talent. To succeed in the Labour party requires too much currying favour and doesn?t encourage the challengers, the provocateurs. It?s time to call time on the time servers-get some fresh faces and seem fresh ideas. Ditch the deadwood
Independence: Polls consistently tell us that the Scottish electorate don?t want independence, instead of exploiting this ?by talking seriously by fiscal autonomy, and a solution to the West Lothian question. The Labour Party persists with Armageddon prophecies, the passports at the border stories (check out Germany, Spain ....). No one believes it and no one is scared
Just do it: Stephen Purcell talking wistfully on BBC last night about the Labour Party being more radical. Wake up Stephen ?you?re leader of Glasgow City Council, got radical solutions? Let?s see them
As for Glasgow East, good luck, you?ll get more attention than you have for the last generation and you deserve it!!
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I see the trade unions are smelling blood and pressuring Brown for concessions. Such a move would really finish him.
Hardly anyone, compared with the 60s for example, is in a union today. I mean in the sense of a one-trade union. The big super-unions - formed in an effort to get a quorum for a strike committee - are pointless. I mean nurses and gas fitters in the same union?
If Margaret Thatcher did nothing else worthwhile, she ended the ability of communist-led trade unions to bring the country to a standstill in pursuit of system change.
For that alone she deserves a state funeral.
Let's hope Brown isn't daft enough to try bribing a bunch of agitators with a way back to bully-boy control.
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#7 How was the terrorist attack on Glasgow any sort of "bad luck" for Brown? Nobody got hurt, it was far too cack-handed to signal any real threat, and he got an opportunity to act all statesmanlike and strong. It was, in fact, just about the most perfect start to a premiership any Prime Minister could want.
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#brigadierjohn
I thought we were supposed to live in a democracy not live under a leader who was unelected, sold off our gold reserves in a give away sale, ran an economy on buy now pay later couldn't do simple arithmetic (2 x 10 = 20) and wishes to detain its citizens for up to 42 days without trial, the list is endless. Keep your unionist dictatorship south of Hadrians wall if you must. Free Scotland from this outdated shackle.
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John:
Your post #7 is slightly inaccurate.
Gordon Brown has faced enormous problems during his first months as the British Prime Minister. However, did this effect his own popularity? According to the polls, despite the problems, Brown was incredibly popular and was expected to win the general election. It was after Brown failed to decide to hold an election did he begin to struggle.
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Congrats to the SNP on a hard-fought victory well won.
The voters of Glasgow East decided it had a choice between its experience of an SNP local administration and a Labour national administration. It chose, quite rightly in the present climate, to cast its vote for the party it felt was doing the most good / least harm (delete as appropriate) to their daily lives.
The likelihood is that, unless Mr Mason proves to be a major success as a constituency MP, the seat will return to Labour at a forthcoming General Election.
Question for debate: is this any more significant than, for example Glasgow Govan 1973 / 1988, or is this a more fundamental shift in Scottish (and British) politics.
In my view, Labour's only hope for redemption is to prove nationally that it is able not just to react to events, but to shape them. They also have to find a leader in Scotland with talent, wit and the will to change the impression that Labour regards Scotland as its own personal fiefdom who will do its bidding, whatever the cost.
If nothing else, last night should have proved beyond all doubt that this is no longer the case.
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#10: That's a rather perverted view of the situation. This was a shocking attack that left the nation (except you of course) in a degree of alarm. We also know now that these people had equally dangerous associates all over the country. While Brown might have been "bedding himself in" and getting a "feel" for the job, he was in constant security meetings, appearing on TV to reassure ther public, and a host of urgent necessities he did not expect to be facing. And obviously there would be an element of people blaming him, as the man in charge of the country.
If that's good luck on your first day....
But thanks, you have made my broader point about fairness very eloquently. I did not expect anyone to volunteer for the role of spiteful character assassin.
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Re. 6
Yes, I agree, The Daily Record/Sunday Mail have been reporting in a disgraceful ,biased , partisan way. On Sunday there, it was "Bowler Nats fear red tide". The colour is wrong, Labour are more pinky blue these days! Broon is a disrgrace for a Scotsman; despite downplaying his Scottishness for years, both English and Scots can see he is just a dour, miserable Presbyterian Jock who spends billions on wars and nuclear weapons. It is no bad thing him remaining PM, it is starting to really irritate our neighbours down south!
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Brigadier
I can't think of anything more ridiculous than the idea of a state funeral for Thatcher.
Why not have a belated state funeral for British Steel (The high-quality, PROFIT making industry which was the pride of Lanarkshire), or the national coal industry which if she hadn't killed it off, might today be the saviour of our energy problems?
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re. 5, "no more union".
I would agree, so long as this also equally applies to the European Union who should also be told to sling their hook, as advocated by the genuine non-unionist party, the Free Scotland Party.
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#7 and #9
Brigadierjohn i have to agree with your points there, poor Gordon has had to pick up the pieces from where Tony left them so i daresay its not easy. As for Blue Tongue and Foot and Mouth well the blame for that mistake falls firmly on DEFRA and unfortunately they dont get voted into theyre jobs .
Maggie .... well the only thing i suppose i can thank her for is The Right to Buy for which i managed to buy my house for next to nothing.
Ok i suppose stopping union is a good thing so ill make that 2 things .
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Journalists and commentators are so obsessed with the politicians they meet that most of them behave as if the East Glasgow election was something to do with a verdict on Gordon Brown as leader of the Labour Party. As if the voters who voted SNP were actually saying they would prefer David Milliband!!
Two factors never mentioned, by any of the parties, but certainly understood by much of the electorate, at least the second one:
1) The "don't blame us for fuel prices we're only the government" argument is nonsense. It is the government's policy in the Middle East?including and now especially joining America in threatening to bomb Iran, as Brown was careful not to deny in the Israeli Parliament a few days ago?it is this that is pushing oil prices, led by speculators, through the roof. As one commentator put it a week ago, every time talk of bombing Iran is mentioned, the oil prices surge upwards again. And the invasion of Iraq has caused much of the price hike already.
Secondly, at home, the monetarist policy is understood clearly enough by many people even if they don't use the word. They know that New Labour, so-called, is anti- public services in a basically Thatcherite way, being far too interested in handing over much of their control to private companies. They see also that this is not being followed by Salmond or Sturgeon, who are behaving in small but important matters like so-called Old Labour, a long while ago, in at least not being against people who are sick or unemployed. Labour is the party that doesn't even believe in sickness benefit any more: something that none of the journalists feel worthy of comment. In an constituency with 25/% unemployed in one form or another in some areas, don't be astonished if some of the votes were a resounding comment on that through the ballot box.
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For all his failings, John Prescott knew his placfe - a good Number Two.
Gordon Brown should have known his place - a good (possibly great) Chancellor - but he aspired to greater things. Fate and his own limitations have conspired to reveal just how unwise he was to give in to the lure of the top job (notwithstanding the fact that any MP who doesn't want to be PM should resign and make way for someone who does think they can change the country for the better).
Peter Principle, anyone?
As of 1976, Jim Callaghan was viewed as an able (great?) politician; his reputation was subsequently tarnished by following a populist leader (and PM) who jumped ship when the best of the going had gone. For all the divergence of their political ideologies, Harold Wilson and Tony Blair had more than a little in common.
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"Anyone who can beat Labour" - how often was this heard in recent weeks in response to the question of Glasgow East voters' intents?
Who knows, come the General Election, the Tories might get enough seats to need a tandem...
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#14 "This was a shocking attack that left the nation (except you of course) in a degree of alarm."
Only if you're the sort of person who's still scared of monsters under their bed. It was a Keystone Terrorists farce, and if that's the worst we have to fear from Islamic extremism - ie something that's not quite a match for one Glasgow baggage-handler - we're doing fine.
Labour's attempts to keep us all terrified so we won't notice them turning the country into Oceania thrives on the gullible and fearful. If you're a brigadier, Lord help us if there's a war.
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#16, sacrebleu1
I can't think of anything more ridiculous than the idea of a state funeral for Thatcher.
Call me a cynic, but was I the only one to view the report of the Baroness's proposed state funeral as paving the way for Tony Blair to be accorded a similar accolade in due course?
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Brigadier John: luck, good or bad, has nothing to do with it.
If a leader is faced with an easy domestic or international situation, then in what way is he an able leader? Even the most mediocre hack would make a good job of it.
On the other hand, if difficult circumstances present themselves, a true leader must rise to the challenge and meet them head on. If Gordon Brown cannot do that, ok fair enough, it's not in everyone's power to shine, but then if he had any decency he would admit it and move on.
Leadership does not call for being on a par with the rest of us mortals. It requires something more: vision, skill, a sense of engagement, propriety. The general impression nowadays is that Gordon Brown has none of these. The only pity we need reserve him is for the fact that he does not realise this himself.
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RE. 16
I don't believe three million is enough for all the street parties that will be held for Maggies demise. A public holiday would be a nice bonus.
I for one will raise a glass or three.
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Just watched Newsnight and heard all about what Labour will do to convince us mere voters that we're misguided.
For anyone who missed it I have summarised as follows:
1) Labour's message is confused / we're too stupid to understand it (is it just me or did we hear that from the Tories during the mid 1990's);
2) Social care is a big problem. Isn't this devolved? If it is, it won't matter to the people of Glasgow East what Labour do. If this is their big idea then it won't help them up here. Ditto health. Doesn't Scotland matter any more or do they just assume that their sheep will return to the pen no matter what?;
3) What happens with the SNP doesn't matter, it's all about Labour;
4) Err, that's it.
What needs to happen for the BBC to understand that it's not just about Labour anymore?
Why have 2 Labour politicians discussing what's wrong with Labour when the SNP won?
What are the odds on them having 2 SNP politicians discussing what they think they're doing right in Edinburgh on Monday night?
And then on Tuesday we could have 2 Tories discussing why Annabelle Goldie would be a better leader of the opposition than whoever Labour can persuade to take the job.
And on Wednesday we could have 2 Lib Dems trying to remember who's in charge of their party.
Given tonight's nonsense this would surely only be fair.
We've got the SNP setting the agenda in Edinburgh, Plaid Cymru running rings round Labour in Wales and even Boris beat Labour in London.
And the nightmare campaign slogan up here come the next election - vote Labour get Tories.
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brian
i would very much like it if you started a discussion on what exactly led to the skewed poll that did not predict the snp win
it was by icm for the telegraph i think if i remember rightly.
I mean as polls go that one was so wrong it had labour winning by 17 percent is i remember rightly.
are polling companies no good at predicting things in scotland or is their method flawed?
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All the papers and commentators are trying to portray the Glasgow East as a message to get rid of Gordon Brown, and thus getting rid of him will solve Labours problems.
Unfortunately things are much more deep seated.
People are unhappy about prices and credit crunch, but long standing dissatisfaction about other things such as Iraq, constant stealth taxes, and perceived corruption at Local and Central Government level. The inability of Labour in Scotland to admit to mistakes and take the flak makes them appear arrogant and deceitful. The list is endless.
In Scotland the abysmal performance of the Labour opposition and the belittling of the genuine aspirations of the Scottish Government by Westminster Labour politicians are other contributing factors.
Labout is in a deep decline and the problems will not be solved in 18 months, it will take generations.
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Re.20
"A good Chancellor".
I have just come back from the pub so will try to be as coherent as is humanly possible. This is a myth, in my opinion. A myth cultivated by hordes of sheepish Labour loyalists who for years have told us mere mortals that they have eliminated "Tory boom and bust" by their excellent and competent economic management (look out old Labour leaflets from the past 10 years, if you are sad enough to keep them!). To follow their own logic, then, current economic "difficulties" are down to their own continuing New Labour macroeconomic management. But did anyone hear the New Labour Politician (was it the right-wing Eastwood "Labour" Murphy or the sycophantic Dougie A. ?) say "Its the economy, stupid" ? It is the economy, of course, but why do they claim credit when the cyclical capitalist economy is doing a bit better? Because they are nose-in -the trough full-time career politicians who don't have a normal type of job like the rest of us? Are we now in "Labour boom and bust"? (with the emphasis on intellectually "bust"?)
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Isn't the point that throughout the '80s and early 90s places like Glasgow East kept faith with Labour and kept voting for them? What they got in 1997 was Thatcherism with a red ribbon. But many thought this was just a ploy. Spend the first term nudging people back toward socialism.
Then the second term came. And the third. Slowly folk have come to realise that the Labour Party have their eye on what the bankers in London have to say about their policies every bit as much as the Tories do. They don't care what their "core vote" think - they can be taken for granted.
Smell it in the air! The scent of betrayal. It has wafted through the streets of Glasgow East and now people are spotting it.
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Newsnight tonight (Friday) was so utterly unbalanced it was almost surreal. I support state broadcasting and the licence fee but honestly .....
A discussion of the impact of the Glasgow East by-election without a single word allowed from the party that won it. Or even from anyone in Glasgow East!
A truly astonishing display of the arrogance of our "betters" in the BBC telling us why we did what we did, as we North of London yokels are too rustic to know for ourselves.
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Have to agree about Newsnight on Friday. Totally unaceptable to avoid the SNP perspective of the result.
I know there were "technical problems" with the link to Dundee (why does that always happen to the SNP ?)
But at least there could have been a discussion in the studio on the SNP perspective. It was ignored !
One other thing that I take from the SNP by-election victory, is that the days of newspapers influencing the electorate to a high degree are gone. The Herald, Scotsman and especially the Daily Record were disgraceful in their pro-unionist/pro-Labour reporting.
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Friday 25th July
The 09-23 train from Gleneagles was punctual, my intentions were to sort out images on my laptop to help pass the fifty two minute commute to Glasgows Queen St.
The journey south takes you past a monument erected in honour of arguably Scotland's greatest patriot. The news that morning was that Alex Salmonds prediction of a political earthquake had come to pass.
The Scottish National Party had beaten all the odds to secure this victory, the Wallace monument was swaithed in the type of light photographers can only dream of, I found myself having to swallow hard and I took a moment to compose myself, I could not have been more proud to be a Scot and a patriot.
This is our moment...........it's time.
Wansanshoo
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There is one very good reason that the political scene in Scotland is moving rapidly towards a majority SNP government and it is so simple.
The SNP are the only party with anything that resembles leadership both in Scotland and the UK as a whole. Blair was a "celebrity" and many of the less well read (ie those who read the comic strips) perhaps could not see through the facade. Brown has no character and looks more like a punch bag everyday. Cameron unfortunately has a pretty unpleasant streak in him which seems to go hand in hand with Eton and should not be trusted. As for the Lib Dems.........who?
Not one of them could hold a candle to "Saint Alex".
Roll on independence day!
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The UK Govt cannot control the oil or gas price but that isn't the point.
The real issue is that the Govt isn't doing anything of any substance to solve the problem.
It has known for a decade or more that oil and gas prices were going to rise as supply tightened and demand increased but it has done little to develop new energy technology so we could deal with this problem.
Instead it came up with "Carbon Trading" which is a mechanism that rather like the trading in sub prime mortgages achieves nothing other than huge commissions for the City.
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#30, redmorgie
Newsnight tonight (Friday) was so utterly unbalanced
Newsnight, like This Is Your Life in the past, is one of those programmes where I view the first couple of minutes before deciding whether to view any more.
The voice of Kirsty Wark - whose last programme of integrity was Left, Right and Centre (with our very own Brian Taylor, I seem to recall) 25 or more years ago when I was still at school - is enough to indicate to me that there is no point whatsoever in viewing further.
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Re #26 karinm
The first poll was very early in the campaign, and arguably put other papers from commissioning their own on the basis that labour would walk it. There was quite a lot of criticism of it on the blogospere but it was not really until the 2nd poll came out that there was much discussion of the methodology. And assumptions NOT made.
In particular, we discovered that "will you vote" was not one of the questions asked of a pathetically small sample. We had some fun trying to make sense of the numbers of page 2 of Brian's mammoth "Labour lagging in by-election race" thread (starting with oldnat's #640) and after some thought reckoned that the turnout would be about 41% and that if the turnout was below 40% the SNP would win, between 41% and 44% to close to call and above 45% Labour would win. Not too bad for some "back of an envelope" stuff calculated on the 20th from flawed data. The SNP winning with a 365 margin on a 42% turnout is right in our window.
Of course, Progressive Scottish Opinion could have easily done this themselves and may even have done so, but that would not have been what their strongly Unionist clients (The Scottish Daily Mail) wanted to hear and nor did the other media.
No surprise then that post facto there is much dissatisfaction with the performance of the "Fourth Estate" in general here. It is biased throughout the UK, but the Scottish Media seems by and large worse than the rest.
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Re #30 redmorgie
Very well said and sad but true.
Having made such a hash of their coverage and projections, we might have hoped for just a little humility after the event.
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This was a very strong showing by the SNP. However the question must be asked - what is the point of them within a UK context. They vow to break up the UK, yet clamour to get MPs to Westminster - they no longer want a Union, but are happy having a leader who is a part-timer in both Holyrood and Westminster.
Realistically, the SNP should eschew Westminster elections - and allow someone who is really going to represent their interests to be there.
They DO have a lot to offer in Scottish Elections, and are perfectly justified in saying that they have the momentum, having been in (minority) power for over a year now, but a Westminster victory is purely and simply a bloody nose for the Government and will change nothing in the way of policy for the citizens of Glasgow East.
It is somewhat unfortunate that the main opposition from Scotland (in Westminster) is the SNP, and not the Conservatives, or, help, the Lib Dems, and it is sad that the voters of Scotland - and not just Glasgow East - don't recognise that an SNP vote in these circumstances is akin to a wasted vote.
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I'm pretty much in agreement with Jake-the-Saltire (#33) here; all this talk about leadership challenges to Pa Broon are pretty pointless when there's nobody capable of standing up and offering that leadership. as it is they're not exactly falling over themselves to fill the current vacancy in Scotland, and one of Ma Curran's (many) problems wasthat she was foisted on the Glasgow East slate as a part-timer because nobody else would touch it after the first choice ran awa.
Nobody's irreplaceable and a leader will emerge somewhere down the line - and very likely not one of the usual suspects either - but its going to be painful. More to the point, all the indications are that Labour are going to lose the next general election so unless somebody charismatic enough to turn things around is about to spring into action, nobody's going to willingly step forward to lead the party into that defeat. What you'll see is an electoral disaster and only then a new leader coming in to rebuild it all.
In the meantime what neither the Labour Party, the BBC nor the rest of the London media have woken up to is that just as no man or woman is irreplaceable, the same goes for parties. The received wisdom has long been that we're locked into a two party system in which the Tory Party is the only credible opposition to the Labour Party, but in Scotland it's different.
In Glasgow East they always used to vote Labour not because of what Labour did for them but simply because voting Tory was totally unthinkable. Now they can, and have voted SNP.
To all intents and purposes there's still just a two party system in Scotland, but the parties are a discredited and disorganised, not to say shambolic Labour Party and an SNP unfettered by the class war baggage still hampering the minority Tories - an SNP in short which is seen as an acceptable alternative to dumbly voting for Labour
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Re #38 donstim
So long as the union exists, it would be stupid for the SNP not to represent their constituents on non-devolved matters and eminently sensible of them not to vote on English and/or Welsh matters which should have been devolved to those countries.
Even the Northern Irish Sinn Fein MPs would sit in Westminster if it was not a requirement to swear or affirm allegiance to the monarch.
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Talking about Newsnight:
After Paxman's utterly disgraceful display of arrogance and snootiness when he interviewed Salmonda couple of weeks ago, it's nice to see Salmond got the last laugh.
I don't expect to see Salmond back on Newsnight any time soon to discuss the election result, since that would be a bit too big an embarrassment for the great Paxman.
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Wee Scamp,
Too right! It's a fact that no government (not even that led by St Alex) has half the influence wielded by the behemoths known as global corporations. These often have larger net worth than all but the largest nations, are essentially a pile of money with a single purpose - to become a larger pile of money.Donstim, and that would be....?And Cousteau, I wonder who in the world is giving Ms Wark wardrobe advice? And are they getting paid?
Slainte
ed
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38 I have never heard anything so ridiculous in my life. Voting for the snp is a wasted vote? Are you serious?
Are you seriously trying to tell me that if the majority of scotland votes snp in a general election that it is not going to bring huge political pressure on to the other parties. In effect what you are saying is that how scotland votes for westminster does not matter. If you apply that to the snp it also follows that it would apply to the other parties in scotland or wales or northern ireland.
In effect what you are saying it that it is only how the parties heavily dominant in england fare that matters.
While there is a westminster parliament then we need the snp there more not less to represent SCOTLAND AND SCOTTISH INTERESTS.
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#38,
I fail to understand your logic, it was not so long ago that the small band Ulster Unionists managed to get policy concessions from the Labour government in return for voting for the 42 days detention bill (ok, that was selling their souls to the devil a bit) however, a group of 20 odd SNP MP's in westminster could well hold the balance of power if the Tory's do not get the kind of majority that would see them effectively as dictators anyway.
I would be much happier with a strong SNP to keep the Tory's in check when they get into power (I think it is safe to say that they will) rather than a UK wide Labour party who may well struggle to cope with opposition in Westminster, if Hollyrood is anything to go by. Also, a reasonable band of SNP MP's becomes an even more potent force, when you take into account that they would also have the SNP government in Scotland to support them.
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38 The more i think about it the more i think you are saying that there is not point voting labour if the conservatives get in at the next election.
Is that what you meant?
So in effect when scotland voted for labour while england voted tory under thatcher and major scotland was wasting their vote?l
Is that what you meant?
You fail to understand 38 that if the snp is in power in the scottish parliament and at the westminster elections controls scoctland then there isnt a whole heck of a lot the tories can do to scotland
voting snp protects us from them and their policies.
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38 next thing you will be telling us that there is no point voting at all and that they are all the same.
go lie down and get over it.
the snp won.
they won last year at the scottish parliament elections
they won the glasgow east by election
and next they will win the general election in scotland and dont forget the referendum.
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Bongo,
Ulster Unionists selling their souls to the devil? The very idea scrambles my wee brain!
;-)
ed
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Re #39 Caledonian54
All very well said.
My only quibble would be regarding the Labour leadership. The way they're going there could be precious little left to lead, and as someone said on one of the Nick Robinson threads, there will be a lot of "Portillo" moments in the NuLabour camp during the next general election night coverage.
I don't believe that a 20% swing is needed for that, but even 10% would produce a lot of those delectable moments. Doesn't that camp contain any ambitious ministers clever enough to realise that their own personal ship is going down unless they take a stand?
If it doesn't, then Brown drifting aimlessly on will suit the other parties.
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There was a lot of patronising talk before the by election about Glasgow East voters beign so stupid that they'd vote for a monkey in a red rosette.
The real test of stupidity is whether Labour voters as whole will vote for the monkey in the next general election since clearly Lord Snooty is going to march into Downing Street with a whopping majority if they do.
So here again is the question I have been asking for about a year now:
What do the Scots really want?
A Scottish government working in their best interests for the foreseeable future or another 15 years being guinea pigs for Cameron's version of the poll tax (i.e. scrapping Incapacity Benefit in Scotland only to see how much opposition there is).
If Labour voters still vote for Labour at the next general election - when they can be certain the above is what they're going to get - then, yes, you really would have to say they're totally stupid.
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Oh come on, the Lib Dems are getting away with far too much here, how can any party who gets LESS THAN 1,000 VOTES try and argue in any way that the result was anything other than a complete disaster for them.
The fact is the Liberals performed awfully at the last Scottish elections too and that the rise under the great leadership of Ashdown and Kennedy is over. At the next election I can see them getting a serious pummelling throughout the UK.
For me, the Lib Dems are the party that are coming out with the most nonsense after this by-election. The supposed "best candidate of the 4" that people were talking about couldnt even save his deposit, and then when they get destroyed they just completely ignore that voters sent a message that the Lib Dems have no place in the West of Scotland.
As to the incredible SNP win itself, I had said Labour could field a goat in that seat and still win it... as an SNP supporter I really didnt see any chance of winning that seat. I think I seriously underestimated the fact that the SNP just by being in government have broken down so many barriers - people arent scared needlessly of the SNP being in power since they see that they can actually peform well.
I think the reasons behind Labour losing this seat will be different from the reasons behind the poor performances down South... really difficult to pinpoint the exact ones here though. Obviously I'd hope its because the SNP is now seen as the way forward!
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The Scottish and London media also lost in Glasgow East.
BBC Newsnight, BBC Scotland Newsnicht the BBC Politics Show have been woeful in covering the Glasgow East by-election. The BBC really must do something about Kirsty Wark and Glenn Campbell - pehaps hosting the Beechgrove Garden.
STV have just been their usual incompetent self. Utterly laughable. Should have it's broadcast licence revoked.
The London papers once again proved they are completely ignorant of Scotland and Scottish politcs. London commentators just don't get Scotland.
Perhaps the most telling is how people completely disregarded the scaremongering journalism by Daily Record, the Herald and the Scotsman. That old editorial tactic of attempting to smear the SNP failed miserably.
The truth about Glasgow East by-election was that if you wanted a balanced news report then the only place to find it was in overseas news in the USA, Canada, Australia, etc. Yes, that is how far the ripples of this political earthquake have reached.
When the New York Times puts Glasgow East on it's front page then you know something of substance has happened.
Well done the voters of Glasgow East you have put your concerns on the world map. This is your day.
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Congratulations to John Mason, Alex 'the Messiah' Salmond and the SNP, particularly all the foot soldiers. A great victory on the road to freedom.
Bring it on Motherwell
Bring it on Dumfries. Has the MP there got the same illness as Marshall?
I agree about the Media. I haven't seen Newsnight constantly but wasn't Wark taken off Scottish politic stories because of her bias?
The Daily Record is a disgrace. However, I do wonder if there is any chance they will jump ship. The one thing all newspapers will not do is support a lost cause. I suppose it depends on the ownership. Who owns this rag.
Bring on the Holyrood Labour Leader election. You can't make it up so who knows what fun and games we will have their.
Bring on the sideshow - the Libs leadership election.
Isn't the Brigadier hurting? Brilliant.
Freedom
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Post 29 is spot on... if Election night 2010 will be priceless for seeing the New Labour MP's fall (the downside of which will be Comedy Dave and Boy George sweeping into Downing Street), surely the election after that will be even better. The penny will have dropped that New Labour failed with Tory policies, yet here will be a Tory administration failing with... Tory policies.
I think that we are in the middle of a re-alignment of politics. Whether it ends up with the break up of the UK, or it just means the end of 30 years of rigt wing/Thatcherite concencus politics.
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There seems to be presumption that Glasgow East will revert to the Labour Party at the next general election - due to this having happened after Hamilton and Govan twice.
But there are major differences between then and now. Although Ewing, MacDonald and Sillars turned out to be wonderfull MP's and Politicans they were quickly submerged and ignored at Westminster and the press ( biased as usual ) did their best to keep them in the background after the initial shock of the results wore off. It is to their credit that they achieved as much as they did.
Where John Mason and his fellow MP's at Westminster will benefit, is from having a popular SNP administration in Edinburgh. So when they cant get their points across in the circus that is "the mother of all parliaments" they have the fall back option of a Scottish Parliament and the helping hand of Eck and Nicola, which will keep them in the Scottish publics eye, and more importantly their constituents eye, in a way that their predecessors never had.
The result of Glasgow East at the next General Election - which isnt that far away in 2010 - will be a lot closer and interesting than before, and with Labour still arrogant enough to expect the serfs to fall back into line after their little dabble with the SNP, i'm looking forward to quite a few aftershocks in Scottish politics.
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Totally fed up withe the Media in the UK and Scotland.
How long before we get a change?
How can all forms of press continue to ignore the support that exists for the great things the SNP are doing for Scotland and continue to focus so heavily on Labour's failings?
The mutinationals that own our media companies and also the BBC need to get a reality check and stop presenting statistics, reports and analysis that aren't impartial....
The opinion poles published prior to the by election were a joke - 20% lead by Labour indeed...
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I'm afraid the Brigadier is still sulking after events failed to support his twisted version of reality or - as it's more commonly put around here - he's been found out.
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Could we maybe have a thread without the endless accusations of media bias from nationalists? As I keep saying, it's an artefact of confirmation bias, like the 'liberal media' for right-wing Americans. Do you really need to swap bias stories like children swapping trading cards?
As for Labour, they're dead. End of.
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#51 minuend
"pehaps hosting the Beechgrove Garden" - disgraceful!
I watch the programme.
Brownedov
Re your #86 on Nick Robinson's thread. You said -
"As you seem to be coming round to the idea of a loose democratic union I seem to be more and more driven the other way."
Since I wasn't able to provoke the Brits on that blog to respond, I thought I'd answer you here.
I have never wanted complete independence (19th century style) for Scotland, and in the modern world, I think it would be unwise to be isolationist.
Hence my support for the classic "Independence in Europe" of the SNP. Eventually, I would want Europe to handle Foreign Affairs and Defence, while becoming less centralist on smaller issues. I also need them to become more efficient, and at least manage to get their accounts audited, before I'd trust them with more power.
In the meantime, some kind of "UK Senate" consisting of representatives of the national parliaments, including non-UK entities like the Isle of Man and the Channel Islands could meet occasionally to deal with defence and foreign affairs. Some form of built-in veto by the parliaments would prevent the British Imperialist stupidities like Trident or Iraq.
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#57 Anaxim
"Could we maybe have a thread without the endless accusations of media bias from nationalists?"
Clearly you don't like it that members of the public can now come on to forums like this one and correct absurd politically-motivated statements such as: "Labour have a 17 point lead" and Labour are "the lead party" etc, etc.
Anyone who knows anything about statistics will tell you that if a poll is more than 17% in error there is definitely something more going on than statistical aberrations.
In the old days people had to take these media manipulations on the chin because there was nothing they could do about it. Now there is something they can do about it - so naturally people like you want it stopped.
All of the comments I post here are immediately posted without moderation on The Herald and so if anything I say here is censored it is still being read by thousands of people. If the Herald censors my comments (hasn't happened so far) then people can read them on my own blog.
So, just to make it crystal clear for you: the boot's on the other foot now. You can complain about the comments but there's nothing you can do about them. Ask Lord Foulkes.
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Yes need to agree with most of the posts the media, BBC included, have been an absolute disgrace. Unfair, unbalanced, pro-Labour and downright vindictive towards the SNP. In particular the moronic Daily Record, who during the summer season cannot find enough rubbish football tittle - tattle for their 3rd rate rag. Who do they employ to write this idiotic stuff ? Are they vetted by the Labour Party ? I mean the Scottish Sun is also moronic but at least they appear to know which way the wind is blowing !
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Going by the reporting of the election by the newspapers like the Record, Herald and Scotsman. Plus certain political TV commentators, it's well seen Labour are the party of the media. No longer the people's party, but the media's party !
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#52
Regarding the Daily Record jumping ship to the SNP ... not a chance, but id bet that The Sun will change its views soon. Once Lord Snooty and his chums take over down south The Sun will be on their side and on the SNP's in Scotland.Murdoch will support who ever's popular at the time.... hes already tested the waters in Scotland by getting St Alex to open his new printing press in Glasgow !!!!
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If the SNP were to drop their ludicrous insistence on being in the EU (yet not in the UK) I might, as might several of my like minded colleagues, be more favourably inclined towards them.
As it is, even the Conservatives won't pull out, but they do appear the least bad option.
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Re #51 minuend
"The BBC really must do something about Kirsty Wark and Glenn Campbell - pehaps hosting the Beechgrove Garden."
I think Balamory could do with an injection of new blood.
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Re later posts last night: I wasn't inviting anyone to agree with me about Gordon Brown (or indeed Mrs Thatcher). I could not expect that.
My point was twofold: on the day they should be out celebrating, getting legless and hugging each other, far too many Nats soured the occasion by indulging in spiteful rhetoric. Folks, you can do that any day. And you do, of course, but why yesterday? Are you not nice people in real life? Do you have real lives?
My second point was simply that those who demand their own version of fairness and impartiality should set the example of according the same to others.
Apparently there is still someone out there who thinks I am Margaret Curran. For the record, I did not stand in the election, I have no political affiliation, supported nobody and therefore was not defeated.
I'm tired of saying I'm a pragmatic rather than visceral unionist because I remain to be convinced that anything on offer is much better than the status quo.
But if I adopted the current fashion for twisted logic, as evinced here, I could argue (unconvincingly, I admit, but who here bothers with that?) that the only winner in Glasgow East was the Union. All parties won a minority of the votes cast, the winners taking a bit less than half the votes of a bit less than half the full electorate. About one in five, roughly. However, the pro-Union parties polled more collectively. But it wasn't a vote on the Union, was it?
How could a referendum vote ever be "the will of the people" on the votes of one in five?
But for absolute clarity, before anyone batters a PC to death in rage, let me say the SNP won fair and square, and quite stunningly, and I repeat my earlier congratulations.
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Re #58 oldnat
Sounds good, but not quite the way either Salmond or Cameron are thinking, and sadly the LibDems are making such a hash of their policies and leadership that they seem to have stopped thinking about the issue at all.
If Captain Scott stays then it probably doesn't matter what Labour think.
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There is surely no doubt that Labour are the lead party in Scotland.
That's LEAD, a heavy metal which sinks even faster than a stone.
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I'm genuinely interested. How many websites are some of you on? Who has a personal blog? How do you keep track?
I get accused of every ill in the universe for my piffling contributions here. But it's only one wee man on one wee site. Some of you guys have the need to address the world, obviously. Do you have day jobs?
I took early retirement and I do this for entertainment and a bit of fun, a couple of hours here and there. But I have a wife, a family, friends (not online friends!) and we do stuff together. Some here seem to be on a 24-hour rota.
Is anyone prepared to kiss and tell?
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#65
Mmmmmm...Sadly I have to admit that the post-election, discredited brigadier is just boring.
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#66 Brownedov
Fortunately, the realities of Government mean that what politicians are thinking often can't come to pass as they would like - they need to compromise, (which is why minority government can be good).
Anyway, I'm sure that the politicians constantly scan the blogs for the brilliant ideas we bloggers come up with :-) (Since irony is used so often in these blogs we should probably have a "smiley" equivalent for it How about Fe?)
The referendum will be to authorise the Scottish Government to negotiate on independence with the UK. Both Salmond and Cameron will have to adjust their wishes during such negotiations - with an eye to getting an agreement that they can try to sell to their respective voters.
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Ref#63
What planet you from donstim? You obviously haven't noticed that the Tories came a pretty poor 3rd in Glasgow East and are even more unpopular than poor old Gibbering Brown.
What exactly have you and your like minded colleagues been on loopy juice?
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#69 Brigadier
Probably many of us are also retired - no one with a job should be wasting their time on this stuff - but my wife's away on holiday, and this allows me to put off doing the list of chores she left for me to do.
I have found some interesting points from many of you (once you ignore the ranters). It'll give me something to think about, while I weed that damned border!
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#69: Ah! So it's you? Not many old bores have people hanging on every word, finger poised over the keyboard, eh?
Pssssst! Seen "johnhancock" lately?
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57. Anaxim wrote:
Could we maybe have a thread without the endless accusations of media bias from nationalists?
...........................................
Yes that does get overdone, but nevertheless, surely even you must admit it is pretty outrageous that BBC Newsnight (Friday) managed to conduct an half hour analysis of the impact of the Glasgow East election result without once allowing any comment at all from the SNP. The party which won the election?
In that case not so much bias as blinkers.
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Re #70 oldnat
Points taken.
Pity the BBC doesn't seem to read its own blogs (apart from the scrupulously fair mods, of course) or some of the venom vented against them here and on their other political blogs could be better targeted.
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#73 brigadier
I've noticed you read every single word I write!
However since you lost the argument all the challenge has gone out of it.
Oh, well, I'm sure there will be another idiot along soon enough.
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Brigadierjohn if you want spiteful rhetoric try the Herald letter page today and a letter from a New Labour apologist Alexander McKay. This sad individual is in denial and should go lie down in a darkened room for a long time !
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Blogsworth: Ditto.
Why are you leaving?
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The unfortunate omission of a comma after the word "Why" in your question rather makes it look as if you're pleading with me to stay!
Here's a tip: go and learn how to punctuate a sentence. Then maybe people will start to take you seriously.
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#16
I know whose I'd like to see first!
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#76 and #78
Now boys, have a biscuit and go out and play nicely.
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Blogwart: I am pleading with you to stay! Nobody else is so easily wound up, and what would this blog be without your intellect and joined-up brain cells?
Note: Don't confuse crude abuse with reasoned response.
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Too late! I've already logged off. Couldn't be bothered to read your infantile response. Let me tell you again: it's BORING!
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Old nat: Shortly. Or should that be shortie?
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#79, bighullabaloo
If you're into pedantry, the final sentence of your post requires the word "maybe" to be enclosed in parantheses (your much-beloved commas would do the trick).
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"parentheses", I meant...
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All: Let the record show that Big H flounced out, shouting, and in disarray. Last time he was back in two minutes.
Logged off? I'll bet he's reading this now.
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Cousteau,
What sort of sentence is that?
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#86 and #88: Probably "parenthesis," you both meant. "Parentheses" is more than one set of.... let's call them brackets.
Interesting punctuation #88. You follow Herald style, among others. In my day at school it was a golden rule that all other punctuation was contained within the quotation marks.
Example: "parenthesis," I meant... or did I mean "parentheses?"
I think the modern advice on style is: as long as it's consistent.....
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#88, Ed Iglehart
One with a subject, a verb, and an object.
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#65 A referendum vote isn't the will of the people based on Glasgow East, it's the will of the people based on the overwhelming results of every poll taken on the subject for the last two years, which CONSISTENTLY show that between 80% and 90% of the Scottish electorate want a referendum, so that the question can be settled.
The SNP want to give them what they want, while the Unionist parties want to deny the people a voice. It's a real mystery why the SNP's popularity keeps rising while that of the Unionist parties plummets...
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How about we cut the crap about grammar and point out that this is was a great result for Scotland; for, love or hate the SNP, they have delivered in Holyrood and this is being recognized.
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#89, brigadierjohn
I have long believed the my inexact grasp of grammatical terms in English is due to the demise of Latin as core to the curriculum, and the fluid nature of English usage.
You are, of course, correct that 'parenthesis' is not a single comma, bracket, etc. In fact, the term properly encompasses not only the punctuation marks enclosing a digression, but the digression itself.
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State funeral for Thatcher?
Well, you couldn't ask for a better incentive for rioting and destruction of property.
It might also be a good idea to have her buried in a discreet corner of a Glasgow park ... at least it would stop people urinating in the streets ...
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#91: A poll is not a vote. Poll results usually reflect the opinions of those who commission them, and therefore set the questions. About one in five of the Glasgow East electorate actively supported an SNP Westminster MP. I doubt if even half of them would translate that as a vote for independence. So if up to 90% of Scots are slavering for a referendum, few of them are in Glasgow East.
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#94: Are you advocating this, will you take part, or is it just the vicarious thrill of watching that turns you on?
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#95 Brigadier
Do you want a referendum on whether we should have a referendum?
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#95
The Scottish National Party had taken a poll about 'Independence' in Glasgow East. It has turned out that there are quite a high number of Pro-Independence supporters in Glasgow East.
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#95 Brigadier.
Lets have the referendum instead of talking about it. Do you agree or are you scared of being on the losing side?
Freedom
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The vote in Glasgow East is more of a vote against The Labour government than it is pro SNP. The people of the area voted against Gordon Brown and co mainly because the party has been in power in this constituency since 1922 and the deprivation has got worse, health has got worse and the standard of housing is almost third world. Some parts of the area look like they have been bombed by the Americans.
The Labour Party used to wheel out the standing MP, David Marshall, every five years and people voted for him without thinking. The Labour party then put him away in a cupboard for another five years until needed again. The constituents were used and have now wakened up to that fact. Just hope that the new Member is up to the job and does not disappear.
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Re #97 oldnat
Cruel
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#100, capyainpicard
The vote in Glasgow East is more of a vote against The Labour government than it is pro SNP.
In other words, the voters have had the integrity to take account of the body to which they were electing a representative (UK Government, currently controlled by a Labour administration) and expressed their (dis-)satisfaction with the status quo.
By voting for the only candidate with any real chance of preventing Labour 'succession of right', the voters of Glasgow East (much derided in this blog and elsewhere) have done the country [defined as pleases your prejudices] a service.
Now that the SNP may be seen as the protest vote of choice in Scotland, what is the point of the LibDems...?
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#71 - Jake the Saltire
I would have to say that I wouldn't have expected the Conservatives to catch a cold in Glasgow East let alone an increase in electoral share.
There is a voting mentality - particularly it would seem in the Glasgow area - that is mind set against the Tories. Why - because they are not turkeys voting for Christmas!! The Tories restructured heavy industry because it was uncompetitive and this cost many Central belters jobs and they have not been either willing or able to adapt to the changing role of employment in the 21st Century, and as such blame the Conservatives.
Poverty on a scale such as that seen in Glasgow East - and other areas are not solely the fault of political parties, much of it has been the attitude of the people within those areas and there willingness (or not) to embrace change. The anti-social behaviour and gang culture within these areas is not the fault of political parties, it is the people themselves doing this to their own area and having a general lack of respect for their own environs.
Not got a job - partly a political problem perhaps - but there are many, many jobs available right now, but people are too e=ingrained in the benefit culture to do them.
Low life expectancy - not a political problem - nobody shoved that fag or deep fried Mars bar in your mouth, nobody stuck that needle in your arm. These are personal choices, and until the choices of the majority are made for the better, then these situations will continue to arise, whether we have a Labour, Tory, SNP, or Martian Government.
The man on the Shettleston omnibus needs to think about choices closer to home rather than blaming political parties for their misfortune.
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All: As for polls and referenda, they are just an expensive waste of time. If, or when, the SNP hold a majority of Scottish seats at Westminster and Holyrood I'll be happy to support a referendum and happy to accept the result.
Thomas: I'd be amazed if an SNP poll showed anything else. If it did, we would not know about it. But I just don't hear a cheep out in the streets about this "clamour for a referendum" the Nats keep talking about. People have huge worries of a different kind.
Sure, we are sick of Labour at Westminster, as we were of the Tories there. But that was always the case. It's always "the Government" to blame. The SNP have yet to experience that. But they will.
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#100 capyainpicard
"put him away in a cupboard"
It's what we all had to pay for his cupboard expenses!
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Brownedov: I see you are following The Lord Mayor's Show as usual. Is that you contribution?
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#97, oldnat
Do you want a referendum on whether we should have a referendum?
This sounds reminiscent of the shambolic referendum question-setting process that Labour proposed to put to the Scottish people until the infamous (and quite hilarious) occasion when Jeremy Paxman tore George Robertson's vain defence of the proposal to shreds on Newsnight; and it came as a surprise to no one that, very soon thereafter, both the proposal and GR departed the scene.
Even if independence is the only option to be offered to the electorate, one could easily imagine a whole series of votes:
1. A vote on whether to have a referendum
2. The referendum
3. A vote on whether to accept the referendum result
4. A vote for representatives to negotiate consitutional arrangements for disentangling Scottish interests from the UK
5. A vote on whether to accept the negotiated proposals for such arrangements
6. A vote on whether to secede from the UK
7. An "are you sure?" confirmatory referendum
8. A vote on the formal constitution of the new Scotland
9. A vote for the first post-independence Government
And this ignores any possible additional vote with respect to the position of Head of State, although it seems that the present monarch would remain "Elizabeth, Queen of Scots"
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#95 That's a tired view which doesn't stand up to the slightest scrutiny of modern polling protocols. But the truth of the matter is easy enough to discern from the simplest application of deductive reasoning:
- the SNP, who want independence, want to give the electorate a vote on it.
- the Unionist parties, who oppose independence, do NOT want to give the electorate a vote on it.
It seems abundantly clear which side fears that the public view is at odds with its own.
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#107 cousteau699
I'd forgotten the Paxman interview. Thanks for the memory!
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brigadierjohn and bighullabaloo ..... all this fighting over grammar .. very silly ... i put it to you both that you are jack and victor and youve had a falling out !!!!! oh and i know my punctuation is bad ... but hey its only a blog .. nae the booker prize .
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Re #106 brigadierjohn
I can assure you that I am not hiding in oldnat's cupboard - he'd have evicted me to go and weed his garden!
As Kissinger said, "even paranoids have enemies" but I assure you you're not getting double vision from me.
Please look at my posts #48 and #64 for posts not echoed elsewhere. I have, however, been doing my "bit" on the Nick Robinson blog attempting to bait the ranters there.
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#107 cousteau669: Isn't that what Ireland is being railroaded into right now? No, I don't know where that's going either.
But there should be a warning light flashing in Holyrood, alerting our politicians to what "Independence in Europe" might mean.
I can just imagine Alex Salmond trying to assert his authority when the big bad boys of France and Germany (and possibly the UK) are demanding: Get into line, wee Scotland. We don't recognise your piffling referendum.
Maybe haggis will taste better served as a salami sausage?
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Re #107 cousteau669
""Elizabeth, Queen of Scots"
Yes, as oldnat sagely corrected me on a Nick Robinson thread the other day. Careful, or brigadierjohn will think you're oldnat's sidekick or alter ego.
On a more serious note, will they have to paint all the Is out or just the 2nd ones after independence when she becomes QE or QEI instead of QEII?
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#108: Your analysis is almost fair. Try this one: The SNP want a referendum because they think they can win now, before the implications are fully understood. The Unionists also think the SNP can win, and are fearful that we'll be dragged into Independence on a false prospectus. The "third way" might be to give the SNP a decent time in Government while more information is laid before the public to allay or confirm reasonable doubts and fears, and then have a vote.
But at the moment, the only justification I can foresee for a referendum would be clear evidence in elections of majority support for the SNP. Salmond has said no Labour seat is safe. Well, let's see.
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Re #114 brigadierjohn
"The "third way" might be to give the SNP a decent time in Government while more information is laid before the public to allay or confirm reasonable doubts and fears, and then have a vote."
Isn't that exactly why the SNP are right to resist the "bring it on" brigade (no offence intended) and to hold the referendum, if the SP agrees, in 2010 as promised in their manifesto?
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#110 Rabbiehippo: I think Big H has come to a rather abrupt full stop. I hope the door didn't leave a semi-colon on his rear. But I just know he'll be back, if slightly punctuated.
You are absolutely correct about the grammar thing.
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Appears my previous post was moderated - not sure why but anyway here goes another :-
If anyone had/has any doubts about the Londoncentric media let me quote the 'Independent' editorial of today:
"Glasgow East was the party's [Labour] third safest seat in Scotland and one of the safest in the country."
What on earth does that mean? They do not think we are a country - obviously. I used to buy a Guardian on a Saturday but was driven to dispair by their pro-New Labour and anti-Scottish stance. Thought the 'Indy' would make a change - wrong!
Grasp the thistle people and be proud - the voters of Glasgow East did.
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114 eh do you actually go to any other web pages other than this one?
havent you heard of the national conversation that aims to listen to the whole of scotland re the referndum?
go do some surfing man.
by the way if you only go on one site your getting a limited view i read them all. but then again i dont get to watch tv i have children...................
as for the punctuation this is a blog not war and peace.
i would do txt spk if i thot i wld gt awy with it.
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#103
"The Tories restructured heavy industry because it was uncompetitive and this cost many Central belters jobs and they have not been either willing or able to adapt to the changing role of employment in the 21st Century, and as such blame the Conservatives."
Wrong. The Tories "restructured" (read destroyed) heavy (and light) industry - whether uncompetitive or not - for purely political reasons, among which we can count making the institution soon to be formerly known as UK very much more dependent on unelected foreign actors and prevailing global economic conditions. A traitor inside each and every one.
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#115 Brownedov: Yes! But make up your minds. Do you want the SNP official position, or that of the fanatical rabble-rousers demanding a referendum now? I can live with 2010, provided the questions are answered.
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Re: #113, Brownedov
...will they have to paint all the Is out or just the 2nd ones after independence when becomes QE or QEI instead of QEII?
This could provide a ready-made export business opportunity for a newly-independent Scotland, selling any QEII-emblazoned items back to the lesser UK.
Or maybe we should put off independence until Prince Charles becomes king, since he would be Charles III (or, as has been mooted, George VII) no matter whether of the UK or Scotland alone.
With the present monarch in such rude health, however, and given the longevity of her late mother, the wait would surely be unbearably long...
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#117 Draboy: Alex Salmond used the same expression in his post-poll press conference. He said: "In Glasgow East, throughout Scotland, and the rest of the country....."
It's an easy slip to make. Ultra-touchy Nats are a negative for the party.
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One or two posters making reference to an independant Scotland (and Wales and England). But no one has really thought it through.
Alex Salmond will be full of the joys for the next elections, as he can expect to win a lot more seats.
But if Scotland does go independant, what next? Defence? Health?
English taxpayers - rightly so - will ask why they should pay for Scotland. So where is this money coming from? Not oil, there will be legal arguments in Europe for years. And EU subsidies will only last so long.
The result proves that Labour basically messed up big style when they went for devolution. The end result is a fractured UK that will only benefit no one.
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108. Rev_S_Campbell wrote:
- the SNP, who want independence, want to give the electorate a vote on it.
- the Unionist parties, who oppose independence, do NOT want to give the electorate a vote on it.
It seems abundantly clear which side fears that the public view is at odds with its own.
....................................................
Not necessarily on the last point.
It is just simple commonsense for the unionist parties to oppose a referendum. They already have the status quo. Why would they want to take even a very minimal risk of losing it?
I'm for indepependence, but I think if we had a referendum on it tomorrow it would be lost. So I am in favour of delaying for a bit while the tide is slowly moving in the right direction
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Re Brian's PS: Labour's Scottish leadership contest
It will be interesting to see if the Labour Executive manages some internal "democracy" when they meet on Monday.
Supposed to be decided by an electoral college of a third TUs; a third MPs, MSPs, MEPs; a third postal ballot of party members.
Of their 4 leaders so far - 2 rushed through via a truncated system (roughly 80 members of the elite decided the leadership) due to the 28 day FM rule.
2 annointed, because there was no opposition to Dewar or Alexander.
Will they let their party members have a vote this time (at least the postal bill will be low), or will they decide that the current extraordinary circumstances mean that they have to "truncate" again to ensure the decision stays with the party elite?
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Re #120 brigadierjohn
I'm sorry if I hadn't made my views clear.
I think the 2007 SNP manifesto was right to promise a 2010 referendum to allow the electorate to judge them fairly on their actions in government. They should continue that policy and resist calls to hold it earlier. The vote in the SP to hold it in 2010 will clearly depend on how the other parties vote, but they will be idiots if they vote it down because it will make the SNP all the stronger in the 2011 SP elections and subesequent probable immediate referendum.
In 2010, Cameron may have some influence in the process and might offer a federal deal. If the Scottish Tories oppose a 2010 referendum, the SNP are likely to have a big mandate for full independence in the 2011 one and be less interested in what Cameron has to say.
Clear enough?
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#124 "It is just simple commonsense for the unionist parties to oppose a referendum. They already have the status quo. Why would they want to take even a very minimal risk of losing it?"
But what seems beyond dispute is that both SNP support and support for independence (and yes, those are separate things) are growing, with several polls showing it too close to call, especially on the two-option question that's almost certain to be asked. Every party must SURELY know that a Tory government in Westminster will accelerate this process dramatically. So if the Unionists want to protect the Union, their ONLY chance is to have a referendum now when they might still win it (hence Wendy's deathbed conversion), and thereby have a realistic chance of putting the matter on the back burner for 15-20 years. To fight it is remarkably like putting their fingers in their ears and going "LA LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU!" to the Scottish people.
The outcome of Labour and the Lib Dems' leadership elections will be extremely interesting from this perspective. Both parties have candidates who are broadly pro-referendum, and candidates who are very strongly against. A couple of months from now we could be looking at a strikingly different picture.
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#118 Karinm: Please see my #68. This is not a career for me, but I do read a range of opinions. However, I take part in only this blog. I know about the National Conversation, but it's dominated by propagandists. Neither national nor a conversation.
Point taken about punctuation. But as the big bully always says: It wisnae me that started it.
But I've been on for far too long today already (did you see the guy who posted "here, here" instead of "hear, hear" the other day?). Hysterical. I felt like responding "Where, where?" But that's me off again on the language trail. Sorry.
As I recall, you are a Gaelic speaker. Up north recently I might have crashed trying to navigate through the bilingual road signs. It's really hard if there are five destinations on one board. It is totally unnecessary and possibly dangerous. I could just about cope with it, but when you enter a village and ask politely about the pronounciation of its name, you get a Home Counties voice saying: I've been here 20 years and everyone just calls it Lochinver.
Perhaps you have a view? I'll look for it tomorrow when I return.
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Re Post 122 and the Brigadier
Now look, as the dire New Labour, Westminster, Ministerial team love to say, if the 'Indy' was quoting the First Minister then fine but they did not put it in quotation marks. Lazy journalism but at least not the Daily Record !
My earlier moderated post was in reply to yours also re the vindictive rhetoric of the SNP. I draw your attention to a nasty little letter from a Scottish (Ha) Labour apologist in today's Herald.
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Re #121 cousteau669
If we wait for Charlie Wales, as apparently his kids think of him, maybe he'll choose one of his other names: King Phil? King Art?
It would save the I painters some work.
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#103 donstin
Is this the view of a Martian stereotyping Glasgow, I do hope I am responding to a more intellectual being. I would suggest that government should carry a large proportion of the blame regarding the demise of the inner cities (or should I say outer cities as inner cities are all being regenerated for the likes of the "snatch grab and take it" type folk). The high rise flats and meandering council estates built by government are where much of the culture you have described has spawned but unlike the people you described (stereotyping) I am not a needle jabbing, deep fried mars bar eating (First produced in Stonehaven not Glasgow) obese lazy benefit scrounger. I grew up watching the demise of heavy industry, much if it done during labour governments with the tories, probably rightly, killing it off altogether. I good sir have always worked and still do and not for the public sector! I also remember a certain Frankie Vaughan tackling some of the problems in Glasgow's notorious east with some success. Its just a pity there are not more like him. So I certainly don't need any history lessons about Glasgow.
Lets face it the Tories gave up on Scotland last century and are not really interested. As long as they get the majority of the vote south of the border they are more or less in government without giving a toss what has happened in Scotland.
Thank goodness we have the SNP because without them we would not have an alternative to voting for a tired , headless and dying labour party and the chance to govern ourselves without the input of the "old" Etonions.
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Re #123 Neil_Small147
"But if Scotland does go independant, what next? Defence? Health?"
Are you seriously suggesting Scotland should go halves on Trident? Iraq?
There might be some support for a contingent in Afghanistan and membership of NATO but don't hold your breath.
Health is already substantially devolved.
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Re #125 oldnat
"(at least the postal bill will be low)"
Cruel
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Re #127 Rev_S_Campbell
Well argued. I'm certainly hoping the LibDems come to their senses and start supporting a multi-choice referendum in 2010.
They don't have enough votes in the SP to force it through, but NuLabour and the Tories should be trying to have the referendum tomorrow in order to maximise their chances. Goldie is smart enough to realise that but knows it would send the wrong message to her party. I'm not sure any of the NuLabour lot have the sense they were born with any more.
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Re #123 Neil_Small147
I know you are a Scot, but your ignorance of the debate suggests you probably live in England (not wholly your fault, since English media is so self-obsessed that it's disappeared ..,. etc).
However, there's lots of info on the net for you.
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"Up north recently I might have crashed trying to navigate through the bilingual road signs. It's really hard if there are five destinations on one board. It is totally unnecessary and possibly dangerous."
That figures Mr Bean!!!
LOL *;o)
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Why would ANYONE want to be Scottish Labour leader at this point in time?
Only someone with a dearth of ambition, or a washed-out has-been, could derive any sense of accomplishment from the prospect.
Stand up (twice-over), Baron Foulkes of Cumnock.
Come to think of it, the above description applies equally to the entirety of the Scottish Parliamentary Labour Party. Put all the names in a hat, and the loser gets the job.
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#137 cousteau669
What a delicious thought - Foulkes!
You get the prize for solving Labour's problems (one term as a Labour MSP)
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#131 Jake-the-Saltire
You make some fair comments Jake and in no way was I attempting to stereotype the whole of Glasgow. However, I think it fair to address some of your points.
Much of the dereliction of (sub)urban Glasgow has been swept away and replaced by modern new-build low rise housing. OK some of the construction work may leave a little to be desired, but in general it is of good quality and far better than the high rise ghettos it replaced. Sadly some of these have already become run-down and derelict within a very few years - this is not due to shoddy workmanship, this is due to a lack of care and attention by the residents, and, yes, a lack of pride in themselves and their environment.
The life expectancy level in parts of the East End of Glasgow is lower than the standard retirement age - this is in some way explained by the illnesses aquired by some of the former heavy industrial workers as many of them will be reaching that age now. However, in no way can that be blamed fully for the atrocious life expectancy figure.
The rates of drug abuse in that area are also startling - Yes agreed we in the N-E have a large problem as well - and any efforts to reduce the death toll caused by drug abuse have been futile, despite some very impressive rehabilitation programmes within the area.
You say the Tories gave up on Scotland last century - perhaps more accurately that should read that Scotland gave up on the Tories!! However, some of the work that IDS did in Glasgow in the last few years has eclipsed anything done by any other major political party. Indeed mention his name to some of the rehab organisers and they will concur.
It is a fallacy to castigate all Tories as 'Old Etonians' and to do so smacks of a class warfare that this country simply does not need any more of. Sure David Cameron/George Osborne went to Eton, so what. William Hague didn't, John Major didn't, I didn't. In common with the latter two I went to my local secondary school.
I think it all comes back to my point that re governing styles - I would like to see people working and Government not interfering. I would like to see work pay and benefits only be available if dire circumstances as a safety net. I would like to see people take a pride in themselves and their environment. I would like to see people working hard to better themselves for their, and their families futures.
If that makes me a Tory, then yeah, I'll wear that badge.
Of course I realise that there are some real numpties in the Tory Party, just as I am sure that they are there in the SNP and Labour parties. (I think we ALL know that they predominate in the Lib Dems!!), but then that is just politics. You have to take the good with the bad, and unfortunately these days, it's the media soundbite and the spin that seems to take the place of substantive policy.
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Well Brian, you appear to be going for a new record with number of posts to your blog. Just shows the interest in politics in Scotland. All parties have to respond to our new politics. It is up to those with the imagination and verve to make the most of this interest. My report card for the parties would be:
Labour: Wholly out of touch, all their certainties gone. Lost the 2007 Scottish election; came second in the no of cooncillors, lost 2 leaders and just lost a seat they have basically held since their inception. 1/10 ( cause they got M Curran to minimise their loss)
Libdems: Laughable. not a credible candidate for a new leader and just lost their deposit. And, as an aside, the fewest proportion of female MSPs of any party. Can't score them at all as they have been mainly absent from Scottish politics
Tories: know they are never going to be a major force in Scotland but are making the best of what they have under Annabelle's confident leadership. 5/10 because of Annabelle
SNP: Doing everything right. Loads of energy, bright ideas and showing the Scottish people what a proper government can do for them. 9/10, not 10/10 as independence not quite achieved
Maybe Labour in Scotland should be held back a year. However, I suppose that might be an advancement for them as they have been living in the past for the last 30 years.
30/11/2010, can't wait....
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#132
Hang on and don't be too quick to squander our defence assets... I'd settle for our 8% of the Royal Navy in the form of a shiny big aircraft carrier which we could then lease to the French who are desperated for one. Nice little earner too.
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Re #141 gunnergoz
Quit right - good thinking
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No. 20 above wrote "for all the divergence of their political ideologies, Harold Wilson and Tony Blair had more than a little in common".
Whatever Harold Wilson's other failings may have been, he at least had enough independence of mind, enough common sense, and maybe even enough principle, to tell LBJ that he'd have to fight the Vietnam war without Britain's assistance.
In short, he was more than a little different from both Blair and Brown.
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An interesting article by Peter Oborne in the Daily Mail today. Seems Cameron and Salmond are already talking about a deal to give Scotland more powers when the Tories win the General Election. This is Cameron's way of saving the Union. Not sure what happens to the referendum under this scenario?
Freedom
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#144
Salmond has already promised to put forward an 'Independence Bill' by 2010, it would be quite difficult to backtrack out of that unless the other Parties voted down the Bill then other options could be considered.
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In the aftermath of the by-election nobody has talked about the citizens of Glasgow East. Politicians have done nothing to improve the situation in this constituency, (possibly one of the most deprived in Europe), particularly when Glasgow City Council has been Labour dominated since the year dot and a Labour MP has held this seat since 1922. Can we see something being done now? I will not be holding my breath.
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The UK governing party does well to acknowledge the seriousness of the damage which the governing party here has inflicted on it. After many years of industrious effort a breakthrough has occurred which has the potential to sever the constitutional link that binds us to the dominant power in the inherited constitutional union that has seemed to be beyond the power of democracy to overcome.
Within the UK constitutional framework the core electoral support of the Labour Party is effectively the cable linking Scotland to England. The pro-independence party has been gnawing through this diligently and patiently little by little over the years but is now taking much bigger bites. If it can maintain this rate of progress, the cable will soon become weak enough to snap, and the SNP will become the dominant power in the land. From such a position of strength its capacity to persuade the people to become masters of their own fate will be greatly enhanced.
"By diligence and patience, the mouse bit in two the cable." (Benjamin Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanack, 1735) At this stage it is probably too late for a change of UK Labour leader or any other stratagem to make much difference to the mouse, who has clearly got so far through the cable as to be capable of carrying on to the bitter end, come what may. As for whoever can be the new leader of Scottish Labour, have they got anyone whose election will amount to more than giving the mouse a piece of cheese that will increase his strength and redouble his efforts?
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Its a by-election. By elections tend to go against the government, especialy an unpopular one.
The interesting thing is not this election, but what will happen in the next one. Will the results prove themselves to be a protest-vote blip, or will the SNP prove themselves as a competent governing force.
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@ cousteau669
That "issue" is actually already resolved. QEII is the first Elizabeth to rule Australia, New Zealand, and Canada, but they also refer to her as QEII.
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FAO Supporters of "Independence" and others of that ilk.
As I understand it all those Scottish parties in favour of "independence" also support, whether explicitly or implicitly, membership of the EU.
Where is the independence or sovereignty of a nation who cannot determine the taxation system, economic investment policy, public sector investment strategy or even if its' own fish can be caught by its' own fishermen...?
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#151 jam804
Yup! To the extent that your post is partially (though not substantively) true of Poland, Slovenia, Greece, Germany etc - I'll trade our current subordinate position c/f England to their level of independence anyday.
If you are UKIP, then you are welcome to any little bit of these islands you can persuade to vote for you, and float it off to oblivion (it won't be this bit though).
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#152 oldnat
Polly Toynbee in a recent BBC 24 discussion stated that the EU is NOT a geographical construct but a political one. She is right in her assessment.
The EU is a big business club that has driven forward commercialisation and privatisation of the public sectors across the EU. Membership of this organisation necessitates subordination of national sovereignty and democracy.
BTW I am not UKIP or anything like it. At the last SP election I voted SLP.
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#153 jam804
Of course the EU is a political construct - as is the UK, the USA, Scotland, and every other nation/state/country/confederation/federation, or at local level, Lothian, East Lothian etc.
What on earth are political entities except political constructs?
"The EU is a big business club" - I think the multi-nationals would disagree with you. Big business would never have agreed to the social aspects of EU legislation such as the Working Time Directive.
I have significant objections to aspects of EU policy, and its inefficiency, corruption etc (as I do for Westminster), but what it is trying to do is to ensure fair trading across the Union.
Since you are anti-Europe, I presume that "SLP" doesn't mean Scottish Liberal, but that you voted Labour. If so, you voted for a party that wants UK independence on the same basis that I want Scottish independence - not much of an argument is it?
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#149 agent-c
Yes you're right, by-elections do tend to go against the governing party. 3 points make this different, though:
1. This is not one unique event, Henley, Crewe and Nantwich, local elections in England and, of course, last years SP elections show a Government in total meltdown
2. For the first time, 2 governments were involved, giving the electorate a chance to decide between them
3. In Glasgow East, Labour had 60% of votes cast in 2005. Their maj. was TWICE the SNP vote then. With a slightly reduced turnout, this makes John Mason's achievement truly remarkable. Esp. as he was not nationally known or had experience as a candidate at this level.
I was involved in the Govan by-election in 88. My parent's were involved in the 88 and 73 one too. The SNP has changed since then from the protest vote party to a real alternative government in many people's eyes. Will John Mason win in the General Election? I hope so, and I think he may well do as he will work his socks off for his constituents rather than be just another forgettable Lanour appartchik.
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Brian,
If this is the best you can come up with; perhaps you should stay on holiday.
Don't you understand that the reason Labour are losing support, is because the people detest what they have become.
New Labour have become almost - if not more so - as loathed as Thatchers Government was.
The situation is, we're paying more for everything - food, energy, water, and anything else you can think of. Yet the Bankers and the Energy company directors etc, etc, are collecting bigger profits, and Gordon Brown, Margaret Curran and the rest are telling us their dealing with it and we're all in this together.
Well, we're not. We don't have the pleasure of our needs being paid for by the tax payer, we have to bare the full brunt. So when Margaret Curran says we're all suffering, it makes me sick.
For almost 50 years I voted Labour.
I was raised in the belief that the Tories were the enemy and the SNP were just Scottish Tories. Now, I believe New Labour have become Tories under Blair and Brown.
The Tories are still the despicable party they always were, even though there doing there best at present to disguise that. And the SNP are doing a good job of appearing to be Labour.
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Maybe Neil_Small,post 123, should advocate for improved devolved education as his spelling is atrocious e.g. independent has 3 e s and no a.
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#139 donstim
Apologies for taking so long to respond but I have to sleep as well as work.
To our debate:
I am happy to note that I am not corresponding with a numpty and you make some strong arguments worthy of debate but, I stand my ground with reference the Tories not giving a dam about Scotland. (A bit of a freak show on the side where we can carry out social experiments before introducing to the wider population a la poll tax) Is it little wonder that we gave up on them as you implied.
I admire the fact that you wear their badge it shows great committment albeit wasted.
Moving on I agree with your desire to rid us of the scroungers in society but bear in mind when born into social deprivation there is not an easy road out and encouragement is hard to find.
But enough lets look at some reasons as to why independence would appear to be a reasonable option. The last 2 significant rulers in the UK over the last 30 years have squandered our oil revenue (without which we would all be living in squalor) on 2 totally pointless wars (the Falklands, nothing to do with flying the flag mearly a way of ensuring any mineral wealth in the area came to the UK, and Iraq another war totally based on oil). As well as wating the money there we are also owners of a "Nuclear deterrent". Who are we deterring? Come on donstim cross the divide and join the independence trail. Right wing Nationalists are also welcome.
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Jam 804 at #151,
I agree withy you however, first things first. We have to get the bowl before we start to crack eggs. The priority is to get Scotland its' rightful place as a fully self governing country, then we will have the power to have the debate on the EU (just as Ireland did).
Personally, I would vote 'No' to the EU and I also do not think a Scottish government would try and bulldozer membership to the EU through as Browns Neo-Labour have been shown to do.
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Re #144 hadrianswall
Yes, very interesting, although not having seen your post until Sunday morning, finding it in the Mail on Sunday proved beyond me and I had to resort to Google. Definitely less stridently unionist than one would expect from the Mail.
Anyone interested can click on: Could Mr Brown be the last Prime Minister of Great Britain?
In fact, strictly speaking, the answer to Oborne's question is NO, because the general election has to be no later than Thursday 3 June 2010. This is most unlikely to be before the Scottish referendum, and even if it is there will not be time to complete all of the legal niceties to repeal the Act of Union before it. So it's Cameron who is more likely to to hold that title.
I can't see very much worrying to Scottish readers in the article but it will make depressing reading for any English readers of it who have been hoping for asymmetric devolution to be completed resulting in more democracy for England.
It actually offers a glimmer of hope to any Labourite contemplating taking on the role of Brutus to Brown's Caesar, as electoral reform and English devolution may be the only way to avoid a complete Labour meltdown in England.
That would not help them in Scotland next time, but at worst they're likely to come second in a headcount of Scottish MPs as the Tories remain unpopular and the LibDems have yet to find their way.
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#158 Jake-the-saltire
Jake, thanks for your considered responses.If I may respond. The poll tax - the bete noir (for some) of the Conservatives in the early 90's- However, if you look a little closer, there is some mitigating circumstance in its Scottish introduction. As you will know prior to the Community Charge there were rates and, due to differences in Scotttish and English Law, the rates revaluation in Scotland was every 5 years and in England every 7 years -why? I have no idea! - however it was recognised that the rates revaluation due in Scotland was going to cost big time with swingeing increases across all property types in Scotland. Hence the idea of the CC was born. Scotland, admittedly, was looked on as a test bed, but only for the reasons as stated above. OK it wasn't successful, but, introduced properly, with safeguards in place it still looks better than the Council Tax.
Indeed, there are people I know that, due to the inexorable rise of the CT would be prepared to consider a CC again! (I never would have believed it!!)
I also agree with you re 2nd generation (and beyond) deprivation - but I feel that the onus MUST go back to the people. If we give them the tools and the means, they must also take some of the responsibility for themselves and their improvement.
As I said earlier, I don't think the the SNPs policy of promoting 'independence in Europe' is much cop! If you want to leave the UK - leave the EU too! It is far more corrupt and undemocratic than Westminster ever is, was or will be! And to me that just appears to be handing your hard won national sovereignty over to an even more remote institution. Mr. Salmond is keen to talk about small nation states with economies similar to Scotland, and often refers to Norway, Iceland, Switzerland, and Ireland. With respect to the first 3 - none of them are in the EU, and of the latter they are in the process of being bullied by the EU machine, in addition to which, their economy is badly in need of some independent thinking, as the EU interest rate is at a point in the cycle which is just not suitable for them. Added to that the fact that they will shortly become a net contributor ti the EU coffers and it is fair to say that the 'magic' seems to wearing a bit thin with their electorate!
With regard to Right and Left - yes I would consider myself on the Right, and it does seem at times that there are 2 different SNPs - It appears that the Central/West Scotland is a very different entity to the Northern/Eastern version. The C/W appears to promote the old tired Socialist agenda - which to be fair has not worked, while in the N/E, there is more of the 'tartan tories' feel about them at times. Can a party continue to cater for such different electoral bases and still provide for all?
What happens if independence does happen? Does the SNP break into factions of Right,Left and Centre or do they try to hold the whole ragbag together?
These are just questions that I don't know the answer to, and I think if it wasn't for the formidable skills of one A Salmond esq. that they all might have collapsed in a vat of recriminations long before now!
Tim
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Re #150 agent_c wrote:
I'm no constitutional lawyer, but I'm not sure your point is valid re Canada. That country started as an English colony and so naturally would refer to QEII.
You have more of a point re Australia and New Zealand, no Brit having set foot on either until after the Act of Union. I wonder if they have discussed or even thought about the issue as she is undoubtedly their first QE.
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#161
Good government needs good opposition. When independence comes as it surely will I would agree that the SNP will probably fracture. However it will have done what it set out to do and that is gain independence. We will then revert to the usual form of left, right and central politics.
#163 You'll get your independence soon enough and boy when that happens you will sorely miss our revenue
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#163
As anyone who travels widely will attest:
Mention of Scotland raises a smile (everyone loves the Scots), but mention England and a steely gaze will result (does anyone like the English?).
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#163 The English are as free to withdraw from the Act Of Union as the Scots are. You must simply vote for the parties in England who support this aim.
I suspect you'll find, however, that the English parties are all too well aware of who subsidises who in the UK. Or perhaps you have some other opinion as to why they're all so fervently determined to hold onto a troublesome Northern outpost that does nothing but complain about them and spend their hard-earned money?
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#165 cousteau669
I neither like nor dislike any group of people simply because of their nationality (or any other factor).
I've met lots of English individuals that I like, and a few that I didn't. Exactly the same as with the Scots.
I suspect you would fall into the second category.
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#167, oldnat
Tut, tut, tut.
What makes you think I am a Scot....?
I am not.
Prejudice is a nasty thing, indeed.
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Re #163 Nemius
With England having had an absolute majority of MPs, the English could have repealed the Act of Union unilaterally any time they chose to in the past 300 years.
Why you're quite rightly moaning now is nothing to do with Scotland but to do with the system and particularly the asymmetric nature of NuLabour's implementation of devolution for Wales and Scotland in the hope that they would remain Labour fiefdoms while retaining control of the HoC because they knew their majority could only be maintained with the help of Labour MPs from Scotland & Wales.
If you expect democracy for England, I think you'll be disappointed by Mr Cameron, as the Mail article I link to in my #160 explains, but if you want England to suffer from a decade of Bliarism with a human face from Mr Cameron it may be what you're looking for.
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#165, cousteau669
There is a word for those who judge people on the basis of nationality, skin colour, etc.
(That's not to say it doesn't happen but, as with physical beauty, such shortsightedness is always short-lived - for as long as it takes to get to know the real person.)
There is good and bad in everyone.....
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# 163 You are obviously a chauvanist as well
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Further to my #165,
I am English but frequently travel in the company of Scots, and I wrote as I have found.
Although I would hope that people I meet would form an opinion of me based on MY actions and statements, first impressions are almost invariably based on invalid stereotyping of national/racial groups.
In truth, only a minority of foreigners could competently differentiate between the constituent parts of the United Kingdom (at least in terms of 20th century events, etc.), but those world 'greats' of the past who are seen as giving TO the world - Bell, Fleming, Carnegie - are known as of Scottish extraction, whilst those who plundered and took FROM the world (Rhodes, Clive, Carter) are known as English.
In fact, all should be known as BRITISH, if one accords appropriate status to the governmental arrangements of their time.
---
P.S. #170, cousteau699
Great blog-name, I don't think
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Jam,
At least in Europe, the central government doesn't determine the shape of local government. I was amazed in 1974, when as a new arrival I witnessed the destruction of Scottish Local government and its re-construction on a cloned system devised in Whitehall, and promoted as improving "local democratic accountability!"We now have the most centralised system of "local" government in the "civilised" world.. How "democratic" is that?
The London Labour Scottish Executive rejected the recommendations of its own commission on Local Government because it might have meant de-centralising its finance and thus making it less dependent upon the whip hand of the London Treasury.
Roll on independence!
Slainte
ed
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Donstim #161: Your exposition is a masterpiece which should be read by everyone. I'd say I would be proud if I'd written it, but that would devalue it in some eyes!
You are right about the Community Charge, right about the deprivation/responsibility balance, right about Ireland being bullied by the EC, right about the camouflaged chasms within SNP ideology, and so very right about the questions we need answered.
These are huge issues which cannot be dismissed with slogans or pre-prepared rebuttals.
I don't have time for the blog today (big family adventure) by I may look later to see if Brownedov accuses me of hypocrisy for praising somebody.
I thought I heard a faint squealing in the distance a moment ago. Possibly an ego shrinking.
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Brownedov,
Though largely populated by Cleared Scots, later reinforced by other cleared Scots who (for some reason unknown to sanity) had chosen to fight on the British side in the American war of Independence....After all, the first Prime Minister was a MacDonald with direct genealogical links to Glencoe.Regarding the poll tax, I always suspected it to be a clever ruse on the part of Thatcher to strengthen Nationalist sentiment and thus weaken the Labour stranglehold on Scottish politics, but I might have been wrong. I believe we should look to taxing land values as a revenue source for local government.
It remains a fact that some two thirds of Scotland is held in less than 1300 ownerships, not a few of which are total absentees, e.g. Blackford Estate - a case of Arabs selling water to Scots!
Anyone who owns a substantial bit of land can draw down grants from the Exchequer, but NOBODY pays a single penny of tax on ownership of land. Of course, as an American, I'm immune to irony.
;-)
ed
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176. At 2:12pm on 27 Jul 2008, Ed Iglehart
"Of course, as an American, I'm immune to irony."
No doubt both you and your great leader GBII would agree with Baldrick that "it's like goldy and bronzy only it's made out of iron".
Other points taken with tongue firmly in cheek.
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Well done The good folk of Glasgow East. Wish you all the best in the future.
Brian u missed yourself, sorry about the fall, lets look at it this way you had a wee slip, Browns had a big drap. Hope it did not damage your good looks ma boy.
We had to suffer here with Glen Cambell
red tie and all. Na braces.
On the 25th day after the big win or day of the big win thanks to Maggie and her recount, hear she lost another 5 votes through it hee hee, he was wearing a black and blue tie. Hell mend him
and heaven mend you Brian. Don't da that again
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Why are the media still perpetrating the myth thar Old mother Broon was a good chancellor ?
He wasnt.
The reason we are in the state we are in now is because of the smoke and mirrors economy that Broon and nu Lab ran for the last 11 years.
Its all unravelling now, chickens coming home to roost etc etc.
The so called "Iron Chancellor" effectively kept interest rates down by proping up the economy with increased taxation through stealth and selling off the family silver, including many peoples pensions.
Added to that the figures themselves were /are misleading to say the least , being manipulated to erase many factors which traditionally were taken into account when calculating the cost of living.
Why on earth do few people see this ?
Finally his most elementary mistake of all was that he put no money aside for a rainy day , basic ,basic, basic.
Remember "And when she got there the cupboard was bare. "
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#154 oldnat
The significant point surely is that, with the exception of a few informed political animals like yourself (with the emphasis on a "few"), the wider population have very little knowledge of these important details. The EU and Scotland's (or Britain's) position within it and the implications thereof are not peripheral to the question of "independence" but rather at the core of the issue.
An "independent" Scotland in the EU would have very little independence indeed. If there is to be a consultative referendum on Scotland's position with relation to Westminster then surely a question on Scotland's position with regard to the EU should also be included?
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Brian can I humbly suggest that you along with most if not all other commentators are missing another story unfolding in these historic times.
That story involves the Lib Dems.
Now you allude to voters in Glasgow East not exactly voting to "give it to the Lib Dems" but surely you should be asking why on earth when Labour were clearly there for the taking did very few people actually vote for said Lib Dems ?
Their candidate was on a personal level arguably the most articulate and personable of them all yet they failed miserably.
Why is no one asking about Nicol Stevens decision to quit as leader at a time when the best opportunity in quite sometime was on the horizon to steal a jewel from Labours crown?
What is going on in that party ?
Maybe you should do some digging.
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Does Scotland NEED to be in the EU?
Some of our nearest neighbours (Norway and Iceland) aren't EU members, and their economies aren't exactly foundering.
Or maybe we should play the "St Andrew" card, and cosy up to Russia? Then, like Grand Fenwick, we might be offered all manner of benefits from a fearful USA provided we realign ourselves in that direction.
Once we are independent - and I cannot believe that I will not live to see freedom realised (I'm in my late 30s) - then, at least, WE can make the decision, instead of being dragged into English fights.
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Jam804:
I am quite confident that the Scottish National Party would hold another referendum on the European Union for Scotland. Scotland would have to re-apply to the European Union and also accept the Lisbon Treaty while the Scottish National Party would look into acheiving certain controls and opt-outs of several areas.
I dislike the idea when people state that Scotland would have little Independence within the European Union. Is Scotland Independent now? No. However, Scotland has to obay EU and Westminister rules. Scotland would become more Independent then we are and still be apart of the European Union.
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#182
"Does Scotland NEED to be in the EU?"
Yes.
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On an altogether different note , I have just heard of the passing of a legend in Scottish Football that was Bob Crampsey. The man was without doubt the foremost authority on Scottish football and I remember as a boy listening to him expounding on all matters football at times without seemingly taking a breath : ) A true pro and one that will be sadly missed.
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Re #181 elrond511
As normally I'm a LibDem supporter, I agree they're very good questions.
In Glasgow East, I think it's obvious that the SNP were the favourites to beat Labour and that a LibDem vote would be "wasted" thanks to our outmoded electoral system. Getting Labour out was much more important than saving anyone's deposit.
Not sure I'd agree with you that Robertson was a good candidate. Siding with the unionist in a TV debate was hardly clever, especially when official LibDem policy is still the completion of devolution and extension of powers for Scotland.
Just maybe he should be given the benefit of the doubt. He could just have realised that Mason had the only chance of beating Maggie and not wanted to take too many votes from the SNP.
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#182 I think you'll find that Norway in particular has been very careful with its oil revenue unlike our own UK government thus making their economy fairly stable. Their welfare system is also very good but comes at a high rate of income tax.
An independent Scotland along the lines of the Norwegian model is attractive to me and even though I'm in mid 50s I think I may see independence too.
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#181 You make a good point about tatical voting. I know that if I lived in the constituency I would have voted SNP even though I am not a nat as a vote for any other party was probably a waste and would only help Labour.
Labour really have to go even for their own sake. The party is tired. They now need to try really ,really try and that can only be a good thing for them and politics in general.
Still find it strange about Nicol Stevens decision at this time though .
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I fear that should independence ever happen, the ensuing cat fight between East, West ,North and South factions of Scotland will make the differences between Scotland and Westminster look like a kiddies teaparty.
Even now - with only a partial devolution settlement - we see the malign influence of Central Belt politics creeping over Scotland, to the detriment of the North/Borders areas.
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Re: #187 Jake-the-saltire
Having looked at the BBC News profile of Norway (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/country_profiles/1023276.stm), I have to agree that the model is one to which I would like to see more of our politicians aspire.
Even if the preferred option of most would be independence (from the UK) within the EU, there IS an alternative...
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#189 dontism.
Perhaps you are right and perhaps not but at least we would not be under the influence of "The London Mob"
"Chill" as they say nowadays or was that yesterday and enjoy the freedom ride while it lasts
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Jake, et al.,
I hope to see independence, and I'm in the latter half of my sixties!
Slainte!
ed
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Yet another damning indictment against NuLabour!
More bad news for Brown came last night in an opinion poll which showed Labour trailing in third place among voters in the Tories' top 30 target constituencies. The survey, carried out by analysts CrosbyTextor, saw Labour slump to just 17% - 24 points behind the Tories and one worse off than the Lib Dems.
It is rumoured that NuLabour are considering a suicide election this Autumn or next Spring!
http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com/latestnews/Labour-considers-39suicide39-election.4329065.jp
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Have just read the following in Scottish Sunday Herald;
LORD KINNOCK is being courted by key members of the cabinet to deliver the uncomfortable truth to Gordon Brown that he has to put Labour's future before his own and resign as prime minister.
Looks like the plot thickens!
http://www.sundayherald.com/news/heraldnews/display.var.2410436.0.0.php
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Well that's the virtual border weeded, so I can get back to the real world (or is that the wrong way round?) - so difficult to tell when the political certainties have disappeared.
#194 Roll_On_2010
While the thick clearly plottens, I wouldn't get too excited at the moment about any paper's "exclusives".
All the hacks have been phoning their favourite leakers (most of them I suspect backbench MPs with little or no influence) and have come up with bits of the speculation that is going on within panic-stricken Labour.
I've seen only one possibility that hasn't been mentioned over the last week or so in these blogs - to go for a "suicide election" now.
The only "sure things" seem to be that
1. The Tories will win the next election in England
2. The SNP and Plaid will do well in Scotland and Wales
3. Labour has no idea how to limit the damage.
Duh?
Personally, I'd love the suicide election to happen - gives Cameron longer to annoy Scotland before the referendum (or if we don't get it in 2010, by the Scottish elections in 2011 when the SNP might gain a majority for independence within the Parliament).
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#183 Thomas_Porter,
I've been Stateside for seven years now so I am not up on these things, but are you sure that Scotland would have to re-apply for admission to the EU? When Greenland got autonomy from Denmark, they had to negotiate their way out of the EU.
Now, as I understand it, the Greenland-Denmark situation is rather like Isle of Man-UK so perhaps complete governmental independence would change things.
Whichever way it gets done I agree that there will have to be a referendum on EU membership. I think its chances of success will depend a lot on how the EU handles the Irish referendum issue.
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Re #194 Roll_On_2010
Thanks. My favourite bit is the quote from the unnamed Minister: "There is no one in the Labour Party who is capable of running the party worse than him."
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#196 Skip_NC
I agree with you. I've also heard it argued that the dissolution of the UK might mean EITHER all it's constituent parts would remain in the EU, OR all its constituent parts would have to apply for membership of the EU, and the choice would be a political one by the other EU states.
The politics would be interesting - eg Spain. While the Federal(?) Government might not want to set a precedent for dissolution of an existing EU state, the nations within Spain might lobby hard for it (to keep their own options open), also the loss of the North Sea to the Spanish fishing fleet would be a difficulty.
If Cameron/Salmond wanted to avoid the legal minefield, they could agree to a minimalist UK state being kept in existence - rather like the office of Secretary of State for Scotland - a meaningless, but sometimes useful, legal fiction.
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Oldnat,
Don't you think that a "rump state" is a likely outcome anyway, in the first instance? For over thirty years I have heard Scots say "I want independence but I don't want to be separate." It seems to me that the way forward might be the "American Way" - ie, defence and, perhaps, foreign affairs remaining with the US Senate-like rump and everything else reserved to the constituent nations (Art. 10 US Bill of Rights, for those interested).
My gut feeling is that people will vote for that more readily than complete independence (so the electorate is happy) and, as you have astutely observed, it makes life much easier for the politicians. It would also make complete disentanglement from the UK in due course much easier.
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#199 Skip_NC
Agreed
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The big problem with the current situation is that Westminster decides what areas of responsibility Holyrood is allowed to handle.
Far better would it have been had ALL powers of government been devolved, with Holyrood then handing back those powers which it felt should be dealt with supranationally at Westminster (cf. the Privy Council's continuing discharge of legislative and juridical responsibilities in respect of British colonies past and present).
As I understand it, each individual state of the US was (is?) entitled to establish embassies overseas and conduct foreign affairs; they just agreed long ago for such matters to be transacted collectively by the federal authorities.
The current devolution is better than the situation which existed prior to 1999, but it cannot possibly be the end of the journey.
At least the SNP have a definite objective, i.e. independence; the other parties' aims apparently extend no further than preventing this.
The journey of a thousand miles...
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Skip_NC:
196#
I would have thought that Scotland would automatically remain apart of the European Union. However, I am going by what may well happen and that would be to be Independent of Europe untill we figure ourselves out. We, as one country, would well have to accept all that Europe has to offer (Lisbon Treaty) and of course everything that follows. I would guess that Scotland would remain apart of the European Union unless we voted ourselves out. It would be easier to remain with Europe then negociate to continue our membership rather then immediatly kick us out.
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Skip_NC.
#199
The only problem by adopting the 'American Senate' approach would be the issues between Scotland and England.
As a Scottish Nationalist why would I want to adopt an approach that may well change the way England can control Scotland?
I want Scotland to be capable of chasing after her own areas of interests. I don't want to risk Scotland being influenced for example by Labour or Tory members of the Senate to the tune of what England is after.
You will then have another generation of Scots who dislike England and the English for political reasons.
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Cousteau699,
The situation is slightly different. The USA was formed by thirteen independent states from a loose confederation (formed for the purpose of winning their independence). It was a natural progression for those states - the Declaration of Independence, Articles of Confederation and Constitution (in that order) are well worth a read (or re-read) to put history in context. So each of the states was in a position of strength, because they had sovereign rights which they did not have to give up if they did not want to.
By contrast, Scotland is currently in the position of having to negotiate the return of its sovereignty. Rhode Island had more say in its future then than Scotland does now
Art. 1 s. 10 of the US Constitution, prohibits, I believe, the conduct of foreign affairs by individual states.
You are, of course, correct that the current situation cannot last. It is evident that not enough powers were devolved. The only question now is whether the UK moves to a federal structure or whether each constituent nation of the UK takes complete control over its own affairs, with the right to conclude treaties with other countries and entities only as it sees fit.
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#203 Thomas_Porter
The issue is not whether to continue a long term union with England (other than within the EU).
It's a matter of handling the transition issues with the minimum of disruption.
Frequently, politics needs to take account of the practical issues of change, to minimise the potential problems for the people.
I have suggested elsewhere a temporary "Senate" solution - not very similar to the current US Senate structure under their Federal system, but a much looser Confederal structure which would allow any of the national Parliaments to veto any adventurism by the residual "UK" Senate. As I suggested simply a legal fiction to ease any problems.
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#202 and #203 Thomas_Porter,
I agree with you on your #202.
Re #203, my point is that Scotland agrees to certain matters being remitted to the UK "Senate," those matters being ones which can just as easily be handled on a UK-wide basis. Hopefully, my post 204 (yet to be moderated as I write this) will explain my thinking more fully.
Incidentally, I used the word "Senate" deliberately. The make-up of the US Congress was a result of a compromise. The large states wanted a congress based on population. The smaller states wanted each state to have equal representation. The compromise was two houses. As I hope that the powers remaining with the UK rump would be less than those surrendered to the USA by the individual states, I see no need for such a set-up. I think a senate with equal representation would (and should) work fine.
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It just occurs to me that we are discussing the post-independence arrangements and we are, to be honest, only a little further forward than we were on Thursday morning. I'm curious to know what the feeling is amongst those who do not frequent political blogs. Are there any undertones in "bar-room" discussions and the like that people see concrete benefits to stretching the umbilical cord or even cutting it off in one go?
Sometimes I miss Scotland painfully.
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#203 Thomas_Porter
Just re-read your posting while waiting for the moderators to do their work
"Scots who dislike England and the English for political reasons."
I have never understood those people who think the problem is "England".
The problem lies with the "British" - a nation which includes Scotland, but extends beyond our own country.
The more English who want their own political national identity to be recognised in a form which doesn't demand sovereignty over others, the better.
The English are our friends and enemies - the British are our enemies.
I'm especially disappointed by your inclusion of the phrase "and the English " in your post. Why on earth do you suppose that we would resent individual English people because of political problems?
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For me the problem lies with ourselves, let me explain.
I'm Scottish and support independence.
National pride will force people not to blame everyone else for the problems of Scotland and I think it will have a very positive and rejuvenating effect on society and the country!
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#207 Skip_NC
I know you are not my son (you're too old!) but "Sometimes I miss Scotland painfully." sounds just like him! If you are near Asheville, catch him as Dr Faustus, in Marlowe's play.
I can only tell you what I hear in my own circle of friends - mainly retired teachers, moderately left of centre in social policy, but Scots (even those whose origins are Polish, English or Irish).
There is no ambition to leave the EU (with all its faults, it is seen as a counterbalance to Scotland's small size in a global economy).
Some had doubts about devolution, but the performance of both the Lab/Lib Executive and the SNP Government have persuaded them that we should never go back to "direct rule".
Few of them are as committed to independence as I am (including my wife!), but all want to see an extension of the powers of the Scottish Parliament.
Most seem to want a gradual transition of power to Scotland rather than an upheaval.
The twenty or so people I'm talking about may be unrepresentative of Scottish opinion - I have no way of knowing.
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Oldnat,
My wife and I are going fairly close to Asheville in three weeks for a weekend break. I doubt we'll be able to take in a play, though, as our old dog is going with us and she deserves all our attention!
Thanks for your insight into what the wider population thinks. My own view, as well, is that continuing the "salami tactics" is the better way to go. Take a look at former Soviet Bloc countries. They got their independence rather abruptly. A good number of them have had to grow up rather quickly as democracies. As we all know, growing up is painful at the best of times.
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Oldnat.
#208.
I never supposed that we would resent individual English people. When I wrote 'the English' I was describing every English person within England together. When I wrote 'England' I was using that as a term to describe it at a Governmental level.
However, I am not going to play the blind man and act as if what ever changes between Scotland and England, whether Scotland becomes Independent or we turn into a Federal State that if we do not balance it right then there could be a rise in the anti-England/English rants.
One matter that I shall bring up that can be seen as England causing problems was Thatcher herself. England voted for the Tories and whatever terrible issues that was brought to Scotland can be spun into England hurting Scotland.
I am worried that the future constitutional changes, if not balanced, may well encourage anti-England/English rants and I would rather continue with our current relations then sour our relations ever more.
If you feel that my comment was offensive then I would suggest you are sweeping the anti-England/English matter under the carpet. I am not afraid to admitt that there are groups out there who will transform anything into anti-England/English rants but least I am openly discussing the matter to avoid what could increase problems.
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Re #205 & #208 oldnat
There was I having completed my travails on the NR & RL blogs and listening to Giles Brandreth on the Westminster Hour reliving his and Portillo's moments in '97 when I came back to this particular fray looking for new sustenance.
I thought I'd found it in my agreement with the sort of confederal solution you posited in your #205 and was just about to respond when I saw your #208.
You may regard me as your enemy, but the feeling isn't mutual. I grant I'm more "Brit" than most, with one each of English, Scottish and Welsh grandparents with a Dutch immigrant thrown in for good measure to make up the foursome.
I describe myself as a Brit wherever I go and even have to explain to the French that isn't the same as Anglais.
If/when the time comes for splitting, I presume I'll be given some choice of which nationality I become but until then it makes no sense for me to choose.
Britishness can be an accident of birth just as much as a political stance. I shall now leave the stage and sulk for the night.
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You all seem to be missing a point regarding the EU; an independent Scotland would mean that the UK (if it remained as England, Wales, NI) would have the option to leave the EU itself. The political pressure on a Tory Government at Westminster to hold a referendum on membership of the EU would be too strong to resist; especially if the Lib Dems continue to support that option. Could the EU survive in its current form without UK subsidies (which are paid largely from the coffers of the City)? I certainly cannot see the French giving up the CAP to give money to Scotland, and the Spanish and Greek would be wanting an indepedent Scotland to fail to avoid their seperatist regions getting over confident. Also an EU without the UK would simply be a French Empire, Germany won't kick up a fuss because it agreed not to at the start, and the smaller Eastern Bloc countries will lose the big partner they rely on to keep the French grounded; especially Poland. Is a French version EU really that appealing? Unproductive industry coupled with Protectionist policies would mean a big tax bill for EU citizens.
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#212 Thomas_Porter
OK Understood
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I'm guessing Labour, having been in power for 11 years is unable to do anything other that "business as usual"
I would say that Gordon Brown is obviously concenred about making the right choices for the UK in the longer term and style of leadership is fine if you have time to see those choice through.
If it were a dictatorship that didnt have elections, he may well prove to be very succesfull for the UK. But since this is a democracy, his style is incompatible with current demands.
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#211 Skip_NC
It's an outdoor production, so you could take the dog - not sure that it's on in the next 3 weeks though.
Enjoy the mountains, I'm delighted that my grandson is being brought up in such a good area (and that he has both a US and European passport if things in the US go bad!)
#213 Brownedov
Didn't mean to offend! The "enemy" reference was simply that when two political identities claim the same territory, only one can win. We can, of course, find a compromise which allows us both to claim victory - always the most satisfactory solution.
#214 andfreedom
I need to go to bed, so can't deal with all your misapprehensions. Suffice it to say that if the EU had to choose between a hostile England with little oil/gas/renewable energy, a small fishery, and no control over the strategically vital Faroes Gap, or a supportive Scotland with positives in all these areas, which do you think they would choose.
If the English chose to be separatist, I'd be sorry for them - but that's democracy.
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Charlie Gordon wants to be Scottish Labour leader.
If it wasn't so potentially serious for the future of Scotland, you'd laugh till you cried.
How stupid does he think his party colleagues are?
He is, after all, the man whose incompetence (and duplicity) brought about the whole Wendygate saga; a man who appears to think that parliamentary rules (and the law) are only advisory recommendations.
Come to think of it, if he did become leader, we might as well start minting our own coins and printing our own stamps now - and looking forward to independent Scottish representation at the 2012 Olympics in London.
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Looking forward to independence, Scotland has the luxury that almost every conceivable form of Government has been tried somewhere and at some time.
Surely that means we'll end up with the best possible option...
... if not for the fact that the self-serving nature of politicians meaning they their own narrow party interests will colour the view before any plebiscite is mooted.
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oldnat:
"Suffice it to say that if the EU had to choose between a hostile England with little oil/gas/renewable energy, a small fishery, and no control over the strategically vital Faroes Gap, or a supportive Scotland with positives in all these areas, which do you think they would choose."
The 'strategically vital' Faroes gap is a new one. Who is the EU strategising against? Russia? America? Al Qaeda?
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Re #217 oldnat
OK - sulk over.
Our opinions on what the eventual solution could/should be are really very similar, and I fully accept that if England refuses to be sensible about allowing that to happen, full independence in the C19 Nation State sense may be the only sensible option for Scotland & Wales.
My point was really more that while there are imperialist Brits like Brown & Cameron who believe in the union as a means of projecting political power, there are at least a few of us "de facto" Brits who are not the "enemy".
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Glad to see that our moderators saw fit to remove #163 just a shame the could not have left the counter #173
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No.20
If the Tories were to get enough MPs for a tandem it would probably get nicked or lost or mislaid
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#222 Jake-the-saltire
I complained about the racist anti-Scottish #163 and nothing was done. It was left sitting there.
When I reposted it with England substituted for Scotland lo and behold! They immediately acted to remove #163 and then decided my #173 couldn't be allowed either.
Funny that eh?!!
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Does anybody actually think the people in Scotland want independence or are genuinely interested in it. Most people do appear more interested in the rising cost of living these days.
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#224 bighullabaloo
I also complained and got the computer generated reply saying it was within house rules.
Your counter was brilliant wish I had had thought of it
#225 I think you'll find a great many Scots want and are genuinely interested in independence. Just follow Brian's blogg!
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.............#163 was also sexist
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Re #224 bighullabaloo
Funny indeed, but more cock-up than conspiracy I suspect.
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#227 Jake-the-saltire
When you add the fact that it was originally passed as being within the house rules the whole thing really starts to smell in my opinion.
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Wouldn't it be wonderful if the Scotttish Labour party chose Margaret Curran as their leader.It would be the clearest possible sign that they're finished.
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#228 Brownedov -
You can suspect whatever you like.
When people complain about a racist anti-Scottish post only to be told it isn't going to be removed because it is within the house rules, then why should a post that simply changes the name of the country not also be deemed as being within the house rules?
You can claim is was a guddle, or a muddle, if you like, but the truth is you don't know for sure, but you expect other people simply to take your word for it.
The reason Jake-the-saltire is describing it as "brilliant" is that it shows up the bias for all to see and gets something done about it all in one go.
If it catches on (and I hope it does) then we'll soon see whether it was a one-off mistake or not.
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#229 bighullabaloo
Exactly, bad smell as well.
Who are the moderators?
Perhaps Brian Taylor can enlighten us?
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Many people say that they are interested in independance.
How many of them have looked deeply into the consequences as well as the benefits?
The SNP - and other parties - would do well to give the public a balanced view of the facts. Diving head first into an unknown situation without checking the consequences is dangerous.
There are certainly benefits to being independant, but there are also potential grave dangers out there. Has Alex Salmond really checked to see if he would be able to get the oil revenue, or shall we see a long drawn out court case over the ownership?
Look back to the UK's initial membership of the EEC, and now see what it has turned out like. There are some benefits, but also some major problems created by this.
Many in England want their own Parliament, which is understandable. But again there are obstacles to overcome.
The Conservatives sowed the intial seeds through the Poll Tax more than anything else by introducing it into Scotland first.
Labour have done far worse however, and have effectively started the process which will destroy the UK.
All for the sake of votes.
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#233 Neil_Small147
No one can predict for sure what the benefits or drawbacks of independence will be.
I, for one, am hoping that one of the benefits will be a generation of Scottish schoolchildren who can actually spell it.
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#228 Brownedov and #231 bighullabaloo
I asked for #163 to be removed on the grounds of sexism but I believe it would have been removed on the grounds of racism.
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#235 Jake-the-saltire
I believe it was removed on the grounds of them being quite happy to see it being dished out but they don't like it thrown back in their faces.
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#224 bighullabaloo
Good strategy!
#225 capyainpicard
Difficult for you to understand, I know, but some of us can actually hold more than thought in our heads at a time.
#206 Skip_NC and others
I wish the hacks would do some work instead of simply stealing from our blogs. Front page story in the Scottish(!) Daily Mail is of secret talks between the Salmond and Cameron, on precisely what we've been discussing. I was going to send you the link, but it seems that the Mail website only includes stories from their English edition.
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I have a suspicion that in reality the independence question may already have been overtaken by events - unless you swallow the NuLabour nonsense equating it with the apocalypse.
Talk of needing passports to visit your granny down south, or border and customs checks every time somebody from Coldstream wants to go shopping in Berwick is as infantile as it is ridiculous. I travel extensively in Europe by road and pass from France to Germany and Italy as easily and with a little fuss as I cross the Anglo-Scottish border ? in fact if anything more easily since I do so on roads a whole world away from the A1; which according to the (Westminster) Department of Transport does not qualify for upgrading since it does not link two major English cities!
In the meantime so far as everyday life in Scotland is concerned the government is in Holyrood, while Westminster is a far-off imperial capitol, totally out of touch and with nothing to offer but a mix of patronising advice, interference and neglect.
Scotland has absolutely nothing to lose from independence within a federal Europe ? except the petulant millstone of Westminster.
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#237 oldnat
Good strategy of not I'd really prefer not to have to resort to that extreme in order to get a blatantly racist anti-Scottish diatribe removed.
However as other posters have said, more than one complaint was made and it was deemed acceptable.
I don't believe it was acceptable and that's why I mirrored it back to them. Apparently they now agree is was not acceptable because they've removed both.
As to whether it's a conspiracy or not, if this was the first time I've complained about an anti-Scottish post as being racist, only to be told it's within the house rules, I might be a bit more tolerant of the belief that it isn't deliberate.
But I have complained in the past and been told such comments are acceptable. However I'd noticed that comparable racist anti-English comments were being removed.
If I'd thought of mirroring it back with the name of the country substituted before I'd have done it because it finally seemed to get it through skulls that that type of comment is deeply offensive to Scots.
I wouldn't hesitate to do it again and I'd encourage others to do the same. What's good for the goose after all!!!
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Oh, all those vaguely undefined obstacles to and grave dangers from independence that we keep hearing about.
Every morning they get out of bed in Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Ireland, Slovenia, Croatia, Slovakia, and (come to think of it) Austria, Hungary, Norway and Greece and they worry themselves sick about those 'obstacles' and 'dangers'.... Any sign of any of these countries wishing to end their independence and rejoin their former imperial arrangements?
Grow up, will you. More than 100 countries have asserted their indepndence since the end of the second world war. It is very, you know, doable. It is actually the international norm. Except for Scotland, apparently.
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A thought appropriate to some of us participating here?
Smile!
;-)
ed
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Re #231 et seq bighullabaloo
& #232 et seq Jake-the-saltire
Don't get me wrong. I'm not excusing it, it did smell and I posted a response to #163 which has survived to date.
I deplore racism and sexism and you were well within your rights to complain. I just think that if in doubt the mods should give the benefit in the direction of allowing debate on such issues rather than suppression.
I have now forgotten the exact details of #163 but recall it as OTT in that respect rather than something Goebbels would have been proud of. I can see that the mods' lives are not easy is all I meant.
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So Labour has (predictably) signalled its bold intent to reclaim Glasgow East into the dark realms of obscurity at the next General Election by the simple means of installing another one of its faceless party drones.
Considering their current and continuing clueless failure to grasp the nature or depth of their own unpopularity, are they not taking a wee bit much for granted??
:-)
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I see at long last the perpetual complainers and whingers are "coming out" and admitting to their sins. And who is the proud chieftain of that puddin' race?
Anyone who complains about anything on this blog, barring possibly serious obscenity, should be told they are defeating the ends of free speech and open debate. The blogger equivalent of the secret police.
By all means tell the mods you don't like your own effort being disallowed, but let other people be heard.
Of course, we all know that the complainers have lost the arguments and don't like to see themselves exposed, and therefore they pore over the House Rules to seek spurious grounds for whingeing. These people invented "political correctness" to keep the inconvenient truths hidden.
Stand up and be men! I should add "and women" lest it be deemed "sexist." Hand it out, hard, and be prepared to take it back, hard.
Complaing to the mods is the last refuge of the big girl's blouse.
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#242 Brownedov
Fair enough.
I know some people find it hard to adjust to our new internet democracy where ordinary members of the public can actually do something effective to counteract outrageous omissions and bias in news coverage.
Also, I know it must be hard for the media to accept there are now ways of exposing them in the act which are a bit too close for their comfort.
But how many times do we have to show them up before it becomes undeniable that there's more to it than mere incompetence?
As we march inexorably towards the grand totalitarian police state that is 21st century Britain, some of us will continue to show them up for what they are, whether they like it or not.
Sorry!
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#241 Ed
Thanks. Loved the story.
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I'm off now as I'm not interested in reading the childish, abusive posts of brigadierjohn. He hates it when I get the better of him.
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#244
Awa an' crawl back under the stone from whence you came.
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Jake,
Surely you mean "stane" - it's so hard to keep in dialect!
Slainte!
ed
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# 244 Please, people, don't laugh. It just makes him even angrier!!! Well, off to take care of vastly more important matters. Shooting fish in a barrel isn't much of a sport.
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#244 and #250
you are obviously upsetting the wrong people.
#251 Sorry Ed having lived in every corner of Scotland throughout my life the brain tends to switch from Kelvinside to Doric with a bit of teuchter in between
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# 253 tee hee
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Not sure what was wrong with my #250. It was a like-for-like response to #248. Feel free to imagine what I said.
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All my funnies are being deleted. I suppose the golden rule is: Laugh at them and they turn nasty.
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#254 Jake-the-saltire
That's what happens when the bully finally runs into a faster gun!
However, we should really feel pity for him.
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#260 I'm sure we all agree....it's not moderators he needs.
It's time we called the men in the white coats!
Can't you just hear it? "But I have to reply to that last post! I can't stand anyone getting the better of me!"
Ugh. What a waste of space. I'll leave you to him.
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It's time now to wonder what an independent Scotland might be like, with the SNP - if they continue to exist as a unit - in charge.
Press censorship? There is certainly evidence of a deep hatred of opposition views.
Secret police: Well, Chuchill famously said you can't have a socialist state without them.
A network of informers, like the Stasi? You certainly must be careful what you say.
Ministry of Propaganda? Plenty of candidates to lead it!
Freedom of speech? Foiled attempts at it are lined up like tombstones if you care to look.
Ministry of Fun: No!
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Predictably, the ever-present nat youth declare this election result as an indicator of 'imminent independence'.
However, there is little proof anywhere that support for independence IS growing!
Repeated polls show support for independence is far outnumbered by support for staying in the UK.
There has been all-but no interest shown in any pro-independence campaign or petition. Even the massively publicised 'National Conversation' has been read by less than 2% of the population.
There have been no marches whatsoever calling for independence.
The SNP themselves blew the economic argument out of the water when it was shown that there was a multi-billion deficit even with current high taxation.
Then add in that oil production is dropping 10% a year as are oil prices (down 14% on just a month ago) which will be taking a vast chunk of Salmond's precious revenue with it.
As always, there is no logic to the nationalist argument.
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#263
A bit of a slow learner, eh?
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It's time now to wonder what the UK might be like, with Labour - if they continue to exist as a unit - in charge.
Press censorship? There is certainly evidence of a deep hatred of opposition views.
Secret police: Well, Chuchill famously said you can't have a socialist state without them.
A network of informers, like the Stasi? You certainly must be careful what you say.
Ministry of Propaganda? Plenty of candidates to lead it!
Freedom of speech? Foiled attempts at it are lined up like tombstones if you care to look.
Ministry of Fun: No!
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Feel free to imagine what I wrote in #268!! :-)
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Re #263 brigadierjohn
LOL.
If by Chu[r]chill you meant the late PM rather than the ad dog, he had some goods points as I've said on other threads, but like all politicians he lost his way at times. His love of democracy and personal freedom was there but he was nothing if not a realist when dealing with the likes of Stalin.
You're on the wrong tack if you think the SNP is about recreating the people's utopia that was the German Democratic Republic in Scotland. Why create another NuLabour when we have one already?
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Re #267 bighullabaloo
You beat me to it. Must revisit the real world after a dose of the brig. See you later.
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#265
"There have been no marches whatsoever calling for independence."
Well, I must have dreamed the four I've been on in just the past 2 years - two of which included a mass rally and concert directly in front of the Scottish Parliament!
Meantime, the premises of your other points are equally dubious!
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Reluctant Expat,
but what you fail to note is that oil prices remain 100% (yes 100%) above just a year ago..As always, there is no difficulty being selective with "statistics";-)
ed
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Reluctant-Expat:
"However, there is little proof anywhere that support for independence IS growing!"
Wrong. The Scottish National Party conducted an Independence Poll that shown roughly 46% of the people within Glasgow East supported Independence (26% against). Despite being Labour supporters these people would vote for Independence if the chance arose.
Does that not tell you something about the Unionist Parties?
"Repeated polls show support for independence is far outnumbered by support for staying in the UK."
The Irish Referendum and the Glasgow East by election are typical examples of polls being wrong. The No vote won the Irish referendum despite the Yes vote showing more popular and Labour was expected to win in Glasgow East but lost despite polls showing otherwise.
"The SNP themselves blew the economic argument out of the water when it was shown that there was a multi-billion deficit even with current high taxation."
GERS is not perfect. However, Britain is hundreds of billions of pounds in debt and has spent far more then it generates for years. Why should Scotland continue to be apart of this when we spend nowhere hear the amount Britain wastes annually on power stations and nuclear missles especailly?
"Then add in that oil production is dropping 10% a year as are oil prices (down 14% on just a month ago) which will be taking a vast chunk of Salmond's precious revenue with it."
I don't care about production levels. I am more interested on the amount of actual oil that companies can take from the ground that has numbered between 10-30 billion barrels.
Apprently 10-13 billion can be reached and the oil companies are asking for small tax cuts to drill for the rest.
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And as for the ridiculous nationalist boast above (post 51) that this by-election result made the "front page of the New York Times"....
...It was on the front page of the internet edition of the Europe section of the paper. Not quite the same!
It is an ever-present tactic with the SNP and its young followers that they resort to baseless claims, hostility (see the number of deleted posts above), ridiculous bombast and exaggerations, plus a good handful of plain outright lies.
And this, in itself, is a clear indicator of the strength of the nationalist argument.
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Brownedov #270: Thanks for correcting me. It was a typing mistake - I do know the man's name. Thanks also for replying reasonably. I don't mind being told I'm wrong, or even having a bit of fun poked at me. I'm susprised you had time to read anything of mine - they disappear so quickly!
But you, sir, while we differ, are not a coward.
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# 273
I suspect tha if you are trying to associate A Salmond with the list of sociopathic despots you've listed, your grip on reality is slipping.
Salmond has many faults but I'm pretty certain rounding up and exterminatiing anyone who disagrees with him is not one of them.
It's all becoming just a wee bit childish now.
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#272. Marches consisting of a couple of hundred party activists (mostly from the Socialists!) is hardly an indicator of massive public support, is it.
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Reluctant-Expat #276: Thank you so much! I was beginning to believe nobody could see what was going on. I hope your post survives the purge.
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Reluctant-Expat:
You are being selective in the use of evidence. How old are you? You must be younger then I am because even I understand that you simply can not ignore information because it does not suit me.
"See the number of deleted posts above."
I do. I see Brigadierjohn's name pop up quite alot(deleted posts). Unless John has changed position then I know that John wishes for the Union to continue. What does us that tell us about the Unionists?
Nothing because each Unionist wishes for the Union to continue for different reasons. Just like the Nationalists. It is quite pathetic to label us all under one banner.
Why are you not showing that John also has deleted posts? You are simply picking on the Nationalists.
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I just looked at this forum for the first time in a few days and I loved reluctant ex-pats post #263 so much that I just had to respond!
"Repeated polls show support for independence is far outnumbered by support for staying in the UK."
People would argue against you on this but I would agree there has only been a slight increase in support over the last 18months.
"Even the massively publicised 'National Conversation' has been read by less than 2% of the population."
The National Conversation isn't that well publicisied, I bet you if you asked 100 people in Glasgow East about it 50% wouldn't have heard of it. 2% of the population is pretty good going for any government document. And anyway - I didn't read the white paper on devolution but I still voted for it!
"The SNP themselves blew the economic argument out of the water when it was shown that there was a multi-billion deficit even with current high taxation."
This is a lovely unionist scare tactic. Could you please tell me the number of years in the last 50 where the UK government has run at a surplus? Borrowing in the uk is tens of billions per annum and increasing fast. Borrowing in Scotland would be in the low billions. Almost every goverment in the world runs at a deficit (with the exception of several oil producing nations). Borrowing is also rarely a bad thing, most companies do the same thing (known as gearing in finance).
"Then add in that oil production is dropping 10% a year as are oil prices"
Oil prices are not dropping year on year and show no sign of doing so anytime soon. That is a stupid comment and comparing a months variation with years wouldn't be attempted by a primary school statistician.
It is quite correct that oil production is dropping. It dropped at it's fastest rate for a decade 2 years ago, surely that had nothing to do with Brown doubling the tax!?
"As always, there is no logic to the..." unionist "...argument." Just lies and scaremongering.
You guys (and the labour party) need to change tactic. An agenda of hope will always overcome those trying to depress and belittle people and there country.
For the record I am not a nat youth. I'm past the youth stage and have no affiliation to the SNP.
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Thomas #281: I think Reluctant-Expat was referring to my deleted posts, as an example of how far people will go to silence dissent. I know you are honest and always respond rather than complaining.
#278 FitLike: Another quick reader! It's gone. Feel free to rip my case apart anytime, I don't mind. As long as you make a point rather than a complaint.
Childish? When in the playground....
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#281 I suggest that the latter deletions were due to their personal nature and digression from the pupose of the blog.
As is always the case with losers when the qualitive argument is lost the quantitive one is used to deceive. Throwing numbers around does not give the true picture. As for young Nationalist followers (#276) my grey hair outnumbers the others 10 to 1.
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#265 Reluctant-Expat
For the last 20 years, the average UK fiscal deficit has been around 2% of GDP. In 2007, it was 2.8% (over 39 billion ponds).
Even the former Lab/Lib Scottish Executive estimated the deficit (including 95% of oil revenues) at 3.5 billion - in other words, 10% of the UK population had 10% of the deficit!
However, a more recent analysis by Oxford Economics suggested that the Scottish fiscal deficit is nearer 2 billion than 3.
By all means, have a rational debate on the merits of independence, but you need to read more than one side's propaganda.
Since the deficits are similar, clearly there is no logic in the British nationalist argument either, if your argument is accepted.
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Reluctant Expat
"Outright lies" is a pretty strong accusation - and one you are challenged to back up with anything other than further ill-informed and partisan insinuations.
In fact, misrepresentation, and mistrust, have been the Labour party's stock-in-trade for decades. Yet only now are a very trusting and forgiving public showing gradual signs of having had their fill of such empty cynicism.
And on the independence marches, the "few hundred activists" involved would probably outnumber many times those Labour could muster in any of their failed election campaigns.
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Thomas: I've re-read your #281. I thought you misunderstood something. Expat was making the point about deleted posts, which you interpreted as the moderators independently stepping in, while he meant it was the result of complaints.
That is the case. My deleted posts vanished because your SNP friends did not like them, and found a reason to complain.
There are a lot of misunderstandings here. Somebody thinks I was accusing Alex Salmond of being a despot. It was just a (poor) attempt to link people, whose first instinct is to suppress opinion, with bygone dictators.
Sorry. I'll try to be clear in future about the SNP, SNP supporters, and Nationalist fanatics. I can offend Alex Salmond in many other ways. Do you think he cares?
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There's a new Brian thread folks!
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I understand fully that this blog is a Nationalist love-in, where unwelcome intruders are ejected. Reading though it, anyone innocent might gather the impression that support for the SNP was running at about 97% because of the lack of dissent.
This must be intentional. It's like a San Francisco hippy party circa 1960, where everyone sits around and says: "Yeah, man - good vibes. Ain't these real world dudes a pain?"
As for #284, Aye, right! This blog lost the tread about 200 posts ago. Has someone discovered shame?
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#289 We've all moved to another thread. Try to keep up!
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#283
Not so much speedy reader as just in the right place at the right time.
I may disagree with your point of view (as is my right) but I've never complained about any of the posts on here.
Actually, I did make a point; that being that it is ridiculous to suggest any similarities between Alex Salmond and the likes of Josef Stalin or Nicoli Ceaucescu (other than being members of the same species I suppose - for the purely pedantic of you).
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286. How about oft-repeated nationalist claims that Scotland has been "subsidising" the UK/South-East/London....
...since disproven by the SNP themselves in their very first set of accounts?
How about the oft-repeated nationalist claims that Scotland does not keep its full share of oil revenues.....
...since disproven by the SNP themselves in their very first set of accounts?
How about 'The Great Deception' which actually suggested that Scotland pays for the entire Trident budget?
Are you denying these claims have ever been made?
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#289 brigadierjohn
Its interesting the lack of support that other parties are getting on this blog. Does that not suggest to you where the support lies?
I find it dissapointing too the lack of informed opposition.
Me having discovered shame??? lets not get personal again lets stick to the bigger picture
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293. How about one from Salmond himself when he said Scotland would be "the 6th wealthiest country in the world with its full oil revenues"...
...even though, as already said, Scotland has been receiving its full revenue for decades and is still running a multi-billion deficit even with such income?
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Just thought of another outright nationalist lie:
SNP acitivists canvassing Glasgow East reported 70-80% in favour of independence...
...but then the SNP themselves reported that only 46% of constituents declared any support for independence.
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#293
The GERS Report actually showed a far more favourable set of figures than most unionist commentators - journalists included had hoped and expected.
One thing it clearly showed was that Scotland balanced its books and paid its way considerably more than the UK as a whole.
100% of Oil Revenues are controlled by the London Treasury.
Disproven???
And your final point, of course is typically and entirely bogus.
If in search of any "Great Deception", one need look no further than the McCrone Report which exposes the UK Government's deliberate and cynical deception of the Scottish people in regard to our national wealth.
One might well say, in fact, that all the Great Deceptions begin and end with the London parties!
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Reluctant-Expat:
Talk about being reluctant. You certainly must of came straight from Labourr HQ. If you take note of the GERS reports, past and present, then you will realise the amount of mistakes political parties have made over the years.
Hence why the GERS report from the SNP was incredibly different to past GER reports.
"SNP acitivists canvassing Glasgow East reported 70-80% in favour of independence..."
I would like you to present your information because I have not witnessed this 'claim' myself and simply do not trust what you write.
However, why do you continue to attack the Nationalists with the same brush? The SNP - political party and the SNP activists are completely different. The Political Party will share the same view while the activists support the SNP for more personal reasons.
It is similar to the Unionists.
Labour are ignoring the Nationalists.
Lib Dems are more for the Federally option.
The Conservatives are willing to talk and work with the Nationalists but has not openly discussed changes.
These Unionists are obviously completely different and have different ideas but you openly attack and label Nationalists as if we all came from the same production line.
The only concrete option Nationalists have in common is that we support Scottish Independence. But we have different reasons why (apart from the SNP - political party) so accept it please.
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And another one:
Salmond declared that "the SNP has already fulfilled 137 manifesto pledges".
Even a quick scan of the manifesto itself shows that this would mean the ENTIRE manifesto plus dozens more have been fulfilled within just one year of office.
Quite how Salmond managed this when the SNP has one of the smallest legislative programmes in Parliament is a mystery.
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And here's another one:
297. The SNP did NOT balance its books or pay its way last year. Even with the full share of oil revenues, Salmond was in deifcit and needed another £2.7bn from the Treasury to balance his books.
Without the oil, Salmond was a massive £10.2bn short even with current high taxes.
As I say, "plain outright lies".
Talking of GERS, another peach by Salmond was declaring Labour's GERS to be flawed and wildly inaccurate....
....only for the SNP's "heavily corrected version" to be almost identical!
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298. Bottom lines of two sets of GERS:
Labour - deficit (minus volatile oil revenues) of £11bn.
SNP - deficit (minus volatile oil revenues) of £10.2bn.
I suggest you do some research before you post.
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Reluctant Expat
Enough!
Like most people I suspect, I find myself entirely disgusted by your frenzied, self-indulgent and wholly hypocrytical muck-spreading.
The recent GERS report was widely acclaimed as considerably more accurate than all previous versions, and showed the Scottish economy in a highly favourable position from which to build towards independence.
What is striking is the high degree of desperate unionist propaganda and twisting of the truth we have seen since the SNP breakthrough to successful government last year - even when the unionists haven't had a leg to stand on.
In your wilful attempts to portray every deficit in the Scottish budget as an "SNP lie" (a damned lie in itself) - you clearly wouldn't truth if it landed on you, and might as well claim Glasgow East as a Labour victory.
Carry on spinning.
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