Advance with gusto
Do you live in the East End of Glasgow? Specifically, do you live in the Westminster constituency left vacant by the resignation of David Marshall?
Do you have a problem that requires attention? Do you have a pet project that needs support? You do? Then advance it now, with gusto.
Better get on with it, though. For the next three weeks, the people of Glasgow East can expect to receive close, loving attention from our political parties.
Indeed, Labour has, quite understandably, suspended its Holyrood leadership contest to devote every breathing moment to the by-election.
Equally, any initiative announced by any politician will be scanned for its Glasgow East content. Indeed, it's started already.
Labour says the streets of Scotland will be flooded with desperate criminals if/when the Scottish Government responds positively to the McLeish report on penal policy.
And you know what? It would appear these brutes will gather, in particular, east of Parkhead. That is, in Glasgow East.
Spirited debate
The SNP responds by suggesting that the good and sensible people of guess where are suffering from excessive fuel costs.
These are both reasonable hits: in each case, dealing with a policy in the hands of, respectively, the Scottish and UK Governments. That is, the SNP and Labour.
Perhaps, however, we might be spared the more hysterical attacks. Such as the suggestion from Labour that Angus Robertson of the SNP had compared Glasgow East to the Gaza Strip.
He did no such thing. I heard the discussion on Good Morning Scotland between Mr Robertson and Labour's David Cairns. A good, spirited debate it was too. If not good-spirited.
Mr Robertson used the Gaza Strip as a point of contrast: suggesting that it was unacceptable that the Glasgow East constituency had a lower life expectancy.
You may think the point of contrast was ill-chosen. But contrast it was. Just as Tony Blair was making a point of contrast - not comparison - when he said it would be wrong if the Scottish Parliament had less power to tax than the average parish council.
Stop it
Mr Blair did not say the Scottish Parliament was like a parish council. Angus Robertson did not say Glasgow was like the Gaza Strip.
Stop it, guys. And, before the other parties come over all saintly, stop and think. You're every bit as capable of such tosh.
It impresses nobody - least of all in Glasgow East where they want to hear answers to real problems, not linguistic tricks.
I'm 
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~30~RS~)
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Brian - You see all those "unimportant" little things that you've listed at the beginning of your article?
Those are the things that MPs are supposed to be helping their constituents with - not all the rubbish they spend their time "debating".
How sad it is that one should have to wait until would-be MPs need your vote before attention focusses on the problems of the people who pay their fat salaries and expense accounts.
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I don't think the SNP will win this one, since their campaign will probably be a bit on the patronising side, and that doesn't really go down well in Glasgow.
As you said, they want honest answers.
But the big question is:
Will the contenders actually start knocking on doors?
Doubt it.......
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The Scottish National Party should mention that, Henry McLeish was once the First Minister of Scotland, who was apart of Scottish Labour.
Personally, I see the 'rising fuel costs' attack by the Scottish National Party as a far better come back. I would suspect the vast majority of people in this particular constituency, witnessing the rise of food and fuel are hurting more then other parts of the country.
I suspect the public to wonder if they have enough money to get through the next week, rather then whether or not more criminals will be allowed out earlier.
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The old political mantra of "My grand-faither voted Labour, my faither voted Labour" is given a heightened resonance in the Glasgow East by-election by it's use of the past tense.
Perhaps the voters of Glasgow East should consider that sending another Labour MP down south on the Westminster Gravy Train will do absolutely nothing in changing their own personal circumstances.
No one should be dying to vote Labour in this by-election.
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Brian I heard the interview between Angus Robertson and David Cairns also. Dare I say Angus Robertson came out top for me and that was mainly owing to the fact that his commitment and enthusiasm came over.
As for Mr Cairns. Well I get more positivity and interest from my other half when he's asleep.
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I hate to disagree with you quietscotsmac but I thought Angus Robertson was poor this morning. He didn't inspire me in fact he sounded more than a bit patronising.
Mind you his question at PMQs was just odd - he said that the government could have used the Recess Elections Act and held the by election later on in the summer. Given that I'm a bit of a geek on these matters I'd like to point out he is completely wrong as the MP has to die or become a Lord for that to be used. It may be a simple error but it makes me question their attention to detail!
Maybe next time he should give me a call I'll keep him right!
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Glasgow is nothing like the Gaza strip, one is a run down area where the inhabitants are prone to religious violence and the other one is the Gaza Strip.
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What the SNP must do in this campaign is to ask the people of Glasgow East if the government of any other small oil rich independent country would have stood by and let a huge section of its greatest city deteriorate to the state that the East End of Glasgow now finds itself. Until 2007, Labour dominated Scottish political life and the current state of the east end of the city of my birth and upbringing is a testimony to its failure! the people of the east end will never have a greater opportunity to make them play for that! Labour, quite simply, deserves to beaten, and very badly at that!
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Caltonite: The SNP will not be taking advice from me, but it's free and offered in a tactical rather than dogmatic sort of way: On no account mention oil or independence in this constituency! It doesn't resonate with the voters, who want to know how they'll get through tomorrow.
Old Etonians and Harrovians in Shettleston will probably remember the public schoolboys' mantra:
"Always hold on tight to nurse,
For fear of finding something worse!"
Labour is "nurse."
The hard question for the Big Two will be posed repeatedly: "Whit difference does it make tae me?"
The answer, unfotunately, is: "None at all."
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Do you have a problem that requires attention? Do you have a pet project that needs support? You do? Then advance it now, with gusto you said brian.
Well given that the government holding the purse strings for any spending in scotland is the snp i really dont see what advancing your pet project to the labour or conservative party is actually going to do? Its not as if they will be able to actually fund any projects in that area if they got elected. Unless of course the good people of glasgow east end happen to want a trident nucleur missile system housed in their area then im quite sure that labour at westminste might be able to help them out.
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"Old Etonians and Harrovians in Shettleston will probably remember the public schoolboys' mantra" - Ha, fantastic. I have to agree with the point, in that people may well be thinking 'Better the devil you know' (although thought your quoting of the mantra was going a bit far).
But I have to disagree with your conclusion - I'm not sure that they will stick to the devil they know there. Scottish Labour have not been doing well recently, and it looks as though the leadership contest may actually be a contest as opposed to a coronation; just what they do not need. And trying to stick it to the SNP about the state of the area - after having been in power for so many years - will presumably yield little reward.
I would agree that mentioning independence and oil is fairly pointless, not so much because people in the East End are clinging to how they will get through tomorrow, but because they are irrelevant to the issues at hand. One more SNP MSP is not going to magically reverse the oil revenues to Edinburgh, and everyone will get a vote on independence come 2010, regardless of whom they voted to represent them; the SNP, I imagine, will stick to everyday issues and continue their policy of proving they can govern, which some will say that have not proven, and some will say they have.
Such is my two pence worth, anyway
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I know I made a point of defending the End End in the last thread, but really, all this the "Good People of Glasgow East" nonsense is incredibly patronising.
Will they still be the "Good People" if they re-elect Labour - or will they become brainwashed fools/puppets/pawns etc?
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"Given that the government holding the purse strings for any spending in scotland is the snp i really dont see what advancing your pet project to the labour or conservative party is actually going to do"
karinm - you know, you are 100% correct with this shrewd observation, but such is the entrenched mindset in some quarters that Labour are still in a position of power in this country that almost daily we have to suffer people who think we're stupid enough to believe they still are.
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What needs to be discussed is the reasons why the by-election is right in the middle of the glasgow fair.
Postal votes for anyone leaving for the fair fortnight , applications need to be in for the 9th of july , and the actual ballot papers may not arrive until people are out the country...
coincidence ... or conspiracy you decide???
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Eoin og: I didn't mean to suggest any particular outcome, merely that the campaign topics were the SNP's to call, and it would be a tactical mistake, in my view, to rely on the appeal of oil and independence.
I'm sorry about the mantra - it was an attempt to be entertaining, in the face of some oh-sooooo-serious posts.
Indulge me one more time; I have been thinking about how a unionist should react if/when the SNP win. Did your Classics master tell you about Horatio on the bridge?
A warrior admired by his enemies?
"Even the ranks of Tuscany could scarce forbear to cheer."
I think that might be appropriate.
Anyway, I hope the campaign doesn't descend into a bidding war. You know, two new libraries trumps a community centre, sort of thing.
The people who really need help don't go to these nicety-nice things. Perhaps a latter-day Frankie Vaughn? A big personality to tell people there IS a better life if they "screw the nut."
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John:
I agree with you John. If the SNP were to campaign on the basis of oil and Independence, then it would be a waste fo time.
The West and East divide exists and it would be foolish to assume that we think-alike.
The SNP are well aware of this matter and have the advantage of using local and national problems to win the by-election.
This by-election should be won already for the SNP, only if the people who live in this part of Glasgow break out of the cycle of voting Labour because their folks did.
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Since he's now no longer tied up at Wimbledon, perhaps the parties should court (no pun intended) a certain Andy Murray as prospective candidate...
I don't think the drop in salary would appeal, however.
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In Glasgow East, according to Dod's Constituency Guide, many residents suffer from "squalor, ill-health, lack of educational opportunity, high crime and joblessness". Where does this remind one of? Not Tunbridge Wells, anyway.
So how did this shameful malaise - which, I feel, needs to be taken seriously - come about? It is about time that someone took it seriously. How could such a state of affairs exist in view of the fact that we are in the 21st century and in view of the fact that Glasgow is in Scotland, which is in the United Kingdom, which is one of the richest states in the world, apparently? It could not surely have anything to do with the fact that Glasgow has been in the tender care of the Labour Party for generations. Surely not. Maybe it is all a misunderstanding. Maybe it was just an accident. I seem to hear in the air the dim grim voices of generations of dim grim Labour politicians protesting that "it wisnae me".
Let us not beat about the bush. Let us take this matter sooooo seriously. The people of Glasgow East, like the people of Glasgow as a whole and like the people of the whole of Scotland have been let down stupendously by both the Labour Party and the United Kingdom. Half a century is a long time to get things right, guys. You got them wrong. Why, because you are the wrong guys and the UK is the wrong state.
I know the east end of Glasgow. I was brought up there. Everybody I knew left, for Australia, Canada, New Zealand and England to a large extent; the others were deposited in "deserts wi' windaes" that Labour constructed here, there and everywhere. Criminally absurd high-rise flats that had to be demolished and replaced with something else at huge expense to the public purse only a few decades later, monstrosities that have been survived by some of the Victorian tenements that they were supposed to replace, took quite a few of them. And what of job opportunities for the people of the area, whose communities were gouged out or removed from the face of the earth in this criminally idiotic way? Well, there was no shortage of job opportunities during the Labour hegemony and no shortage of people eager to grasp them . . . you just had to look elsewhere for them, not least in Australia, Canada, New Zealand . . . and the United Kingdom south of the border to a large extent.
In this by-election Labour and the UK are in the dock, where they stand accused of being responsible for "squalor, ill-health, lack of educational opportunity, high crime and joblessness" in Glasgow East and of robbing Scotland of the wealth and prosperity that it could and should have. There is no longer anyone else to blame. Labour and the UK did this. The people of Glasgow East do not need Labour to protect them. They need to be protected against what Labour has become since that decent man from Lossiemouth spoke up for the people with sincerity and noble intent in the early part of the last century. They should seize the opportunity to elect an MP who will protect them against Labour and whose election will take Scotland nearer to the UK's exit door and eradication of the "squalor, ill-health, lack of educational opportunity, high crime and joblessness", which are a blot on the face of our country and oh sooooo serious.
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Cousteau669: Murray would certainly be at home batting nonsense endlessly from one party to the other. I think politics, generally, is more in need of a Nadal.
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So Nicol Stephen has gone as well! That's taking coalition with Labour too far.
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There's never been a bandwagon that a LibDem leader wouldn't jump on.
Just hope that David 'Call Me "Dave"' catches the bug.
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Sad to say that I never had a classics teacher - if it were up to me, I would ensure everyone had a humanist eduaction, regardless of cost (that's humanist as in Renaissance, as opposed to Sartre's humanism).
However, back at the point in hand, I think there is a general trend of the populace to differentiating between political point scoring and theatre and politicians carrying out the proper business of politics, by trying to make people's lives better. If a politician is discovered, or even thought to be, politically point-scoring, it backfires in a far worse manner than the damage his opponent would have suffered had it succeeded. Thus I hope (and suspect) that the politicians of the day will concentrate on the issues, as the danger of being seen to be politically petty is too dangerous. Is it not sad that such enlightened self-interest is the reason to drive our political classes to do the 'right' thing?
So we shall wait and see how things turn out, but due to the situation down south, undoubtedly the spotlight will be on. Happy reporting, Mr Taylor.
P.S. As a Gael, I am, naturally, much more in favour of the legends of Cuchulainn (my apologies for the lack of accents, I can't make them work)
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Bill Posters: You are soooooo wound up! But that is a very articulate and meaningful rant, and it's impossible to quibble with too much. I must suggest to you, however, that if you had omitted "Glasgow" you might have substituted a dozen other UK cities, notably Liverpool, Cardiff and Bristol. And several in Europe, for starters. So forgive me if I have difficulty in imagining a peculiarly Scottish answer to it all.
I don't want to go on all night about whether the environment makes the people or vice versa, but you seem to exclude any possibility of self-blame here. Still, I agree - it's mostly Labour's fault.
Not for building high flats, etc., because the original tenants loved them. But for putting addicts and pregnant teenagers in among old folk, for example.
People in Glasgow were far, far worse off before the world wars, but they respected their neighbours and supported each other. But society lost these values. And long before Margaret Thatcher was around.
My main point is that politicians can't lift people out of poverty, but they can lower a ladder and encourage them to climb. The first rung is education, then personal standards, then ambition. If you ain't got it, you ain't goin' nowhere.
I hope this is serious enough, even if you disagree. But get this: humour has always been a great crutch for people in dire straits. Don't knock it till you try it.
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brigadierjohn
"they respected their neighbours and supported each other" - Yes, I've seen "The Steamie", and having sat the same Higher English paper as you, have observed the same social changes as you.
Can I suggest that part of the society that you describe stemmed from the presence among the "working class" (when that phrase meant something) of a significant number of highly intelligent, but uneducated, people (often women) who exerted strong moral influence on their communities.
What changed was that for our generation (and subsequent ones) there was a huge increase in the lads and lasses o' pairts being funded for the education that moved them out of their background and into middle class jobs and lifestyle.
The "social ghettoisation" of housing - especially in the big towns and cities, leaves swathes of the poor with no worthwhile role models to follow, other than those portrayed in the media.
You are right that personal standards and ambition (you need to have these in the family, before you can take advantage of the education offered) will raise individuals from poverty, although that, in turn, will intensify the underclass nature of some communities.
I have not seen any party or individual bring forward policies that genuinely impact the most disadvantaged in society - although simplistic soundbites resound everywhere.
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I don't think there's much chance of Labour's core vote going "doon the watter" for the Glasgow Fair. Buckie and fags are expensive these days. A few Lib Dem or SNP voters with jobs may do though. I'm looking forward to shaking Gordon Brown by the hand during the campaign. With Wendy's absence I'm sure he'll step happily into the breach in his own backyard. If he can't win this one he's got to go. Better to fall on his sword now than stumble on for another 2 years until he's crippled Labour for a generation or more.
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The Labour Party has been happy to see the East End collapse under the weight of its own problems for decades. The SNP has shown no interest in reversing that trend until this week.
So moving on from something they obviously don't really care about...
... can anyone tell me what MPs and MSPs actually *do*?
I mean - firemen put out fires, teachers teach kids, reporters report, builders build.
What do politicians do all day?
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Wendy went and now Nicol has gone too. Was it something we said.....
On Brian's blog: The primary difference between the SNP and Labour is that then SNP recognises to change our more deprived areas we need to get out of the dependency culture. The unionists, esp Labour, keep telling us it is a good thing. Apparently, borrowing money, according to them, from our neighbour England is OK. Wish I lived next to a Labour MP, maybe he could help me with my rent!
It is only by earning more as a society that we can provide the help and opportunities that Glasgow East desperately needs. Labour's solution is to over-govern and they seem to prefer to pay people to stay poor rather than really help them. They have had 11 years to help, and have failed dramatically.
So the message to the electorate of Glasgow East, and beyond, is more of the same from Labour or new opportunities from the SNP. Seems an easy choice to me.
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Brian
Much has been said about the Glasgow East result and G Brown's future. I think it runs much deeper than that. Losing this seat may be the last straw that breaks Scottish Labour's back. They have a shrinking activist base, no money, little enthusiasm from their union backers and catastrophic opinion poll ratings. Combined with less than inspired leadership they are under great stress and the cracks are showing. One good tap from another by-election defeat could split them asunder. Even if they retain this seat, it will only put off the inevitable. They are well past their sell-by date.
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The inhabitants of ''Glasgow East End'' have traditionally voted Labour, traditional working class voters voting for a working class government, this seems to be the argument.
The fact of the matter is that ''New Labour'' under Tony Blair and Gordon Brown are left of centre no more. The policies created and implemented by this party will confirm this.
The left of centre vote has no mainstream party to vote for, the question I ask is: Would your grandfather vote for this centre right ''New Labour'' party?
Given the current corruption, illegal donations and expenses scandals, I suspect not !
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Brian it's about to happen Glasgow east is going to be inundated by all these criminals.
Just look for yourself, how many politicians will visit this constituency promise the kingdom of heaven remembering to collect their expenses of course, then leave giving nothing to the people.
I hope the politicians are very careful they may hurt there backs picking up their expenses, after all glasgow east is a long way from their London and Edinburgh club.
Incidentally could you advise the labour party that there income should be a bit more legitimate this time, after all they made the rules!
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partysan #26
"can anyone tell me what MPs and MSPs actually *do*?"
I asked the same question on a previous blog here the other day and invited people to send in examples of how their MP had helped them with some practical, real world problem.
There was not a single response.
In my view MPs provide nothing of any real value to society - but are first in the queue when it comes to claiming the rewards that other people have worked hard to create.
There are a few specific areas where I'm sure you've noticed where MPs work tirelessly:
1. Ensuring they maximise the money extracted from other people via endless taxes.
2. Ensuring they maximise their share of the money extracted.
3. Ensuring that whatever money left over is spent on things the people who provided it don't want it spent on. (think ID cards, surveillance cameras, DNA databases, etc,etc).
The only real question is why do we put up with them at all?
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Re 26 and 31 - I've always thought that MP's,MSP's,councillors etc's first and only job once they are elected is to analyse how they got elected and then work out how to do it again at the next election!
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It used to be said that Scotland would not be free until the last minister was strangled with the last copy of the Sunday Post.
A more up to date version would be that we will not be free until the last Labour MP is strangled with the last copy of the Daily Record
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Having just beamed down from the planet Pimple, which is on the back side of Uranus, I perceive that I have landed in a place called Glasgow East, which appears to be the backside of the planet Earth, or little dotty blue thing, as we call it.
Evidently, some unspeakable catastrophe has overtaken this place, which the overlords of the upper echelons of the administration of something referred to locally as UK - or possibly YUK? - have inexplicably contrived to overlook.
Can I be of any assistance? If you want the remaining population cleared out, as appears to be the case, to make way for a totally empty space, I could arrange that for you. Alternatively, the local inhabitants could just go on voting for something called Labour, which seems to be responsible for the clearances up to this point. Anyway, as I don't see any leaders worth being taken to around here, I'll be off then.
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All of this reminds me of a story told of James VII; as he was being rowed across the river just before the battle of the Boyne, the ferryman wished him well in the coming battle, to which Jamie, diplomatic as ever, responded:
?What does it matter to you? Tomorrow you will still be a ferryman.?
Voting Labour will change nothing in Glasgow East
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Is the SNPs tactic just to be patronising to the people of the East End of Glasgow or is it just their supporters on here that are taking that route.
Yes the East End is not as nice as other areas in Glasgow but there has been real change there. You only have to look at the area around parkhead - 6-7 years ago it was disgusting and beyond belief but thanks to a massive regeneration project and the council house transfer its a million times better. You also can't fail to notices the new and refurbished schools in the area. However poverty of ambition is a much harder nut to crack but projects run by the John Wheatly College and the Council are helping the young people in particular with apprentiships and proper training. There is a long way to go but its a step in the right direction.
And as for you all getting your knickers in a twist about the fact that most traditionally vote labour in the area - try to understand that just because someone disagrees with your political views does not mean they are thick so stop implying it its unbecoming and insulting. Rant over!!
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I think the point is that most of our poor and deprived areas in Scotland are all Labour controlled and have been for some decades.
The fact that there is no chance of any significant improvement is because MSP's and MP's (Labour) alike will not stand up and demand more from the (Labour) Westminster government.
Imagine Belgium having to get permission from France to invest some wealth into a deprived area, wouldn't happen.
We're paying for the East end of London to become this great thriving place yet we can't even get decent housing for the people in our biggest city......Socialists? Pah!!
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OldNat #24: Your exposition is excellent and superior to mine, but I think we are more or less agreed.
But I hope you were not suggesting that my "insight" - if such I have - was from seeing The Steamie, or otherwise second hand.
I can assure you that in the 60s, at the start of slum clearance, I was up more than a few closes in old Glasgow. Thistle Street and Hospital Street in the Gorbals had to be seen to be believed. In the East End, Stamford Street, Orr Street, parts of Tollcross, etc., etc.
Sure, there were criminals, and people who knew no better than to live like animals, but overwhelmingly there was light in the eyes of many people - mainly women as you say - an indication of hope and some expectation that they would "get through it."
I do not see the light in the eyes today. Once, if mum fell victim to drink, granny would step in and make sure the kids were okay. Now, mum falls victim to drugs and granny is still victim to drink. We know what happens to the kids.
I don't know how to break the cycle, but I may travel to Glasgow and punch the face of any Mickey Mouse politician who dares to say he has the answer.
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As a Scot exiled in England can I plead with the good people of Glasgow East -VOTE LABOUR. You already have your own government but we in England DESPARATELY don't want the Tories in again.
If Labour don't win in your by-election, Gordon Brown's government will fall and we'll get Dodgy Dave as prime minister and that would be a tragedy.
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Just a wee thought - as the Tories are actively floating the end of the Union through Ken Clarke's idea on English votes would it not make more sense to forget this bye-election and simply get on with enabling Holyrood to run a sovereign Scotland and Westminster, England and its possessions ( Berwick upon Tweed, Wales, Isle of Man, Channel Islands etc)?
Seems to better deal with the political reality now extant in the UK. SNP want to put Scotland first, Tories want to put England first and Labour want to put themselves first so the best way to resolve this with as little unpleasant squabbling as possible is to return to the pre 1707 political state of the UK.
The Tories will be happy, the SNP will be happy and Labour will be nowhere (which is where they are anyway).
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#37 I don't buy the if we were an independant country it would be christmas every day! You clearly have never been to the East End of London. Having lived in both the East End of Glasgow and briefly in Stratford in the East London - I do not begruge a penny that goes into regenerating either area. If that makes me a socialist then I'm proud to be one! Both will benefit from the Olympic and Commonwealth Games developments which hopefully will be the kickstart both areas need. I've already said it before - there is a long way to go but there has been some improvements in the area with regards to housing and job projects. There is no overnight solution.
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greenpetal21 - Thank you!
You seem to be about the only other person who knows the East End and strangely enough aren't depicting it as a Scottish Sarajevo circa 1992.
It does seem party lines seem to be riding roughshod over reality.
To say Labour have done nothing for the consituency is just dishonest.
Money has been pured into it - not all has hit the mark, but efforts have been made.
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#41 I have no desire nor any need to go to the East end of London to know that the majority of the Olympic money will stay and benefit London and surrounding areas.
I have family in the East end of Glasgow, and while I commend the efforts being made it's still the most deprived area in the UK. My point is that Labour have been in control there for decades and you would think now that the Labour have been in power for 12 years there would have been substantial change.
I'm not asking for Christmas i'm asking for equality, will be very interesting to see how much UK money Glasgow gets in comparison with the Olympics.
I begrudge our taxes going up to pay for something that clearly will not benefit our country. Nothing socialist about that.
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nworBnodroG # 39.
Speak for yourself.
I am a Scot living in England and I cannot wait for this dreadful Labour government to fall. Given the damage Brown and his cronies have done to the UK over the past decade, it mystifies me that anyone would want more of it.
As for yourself, you have chosen to live in England. Any 'exile' is self-imposed. If you are so unhappy at the thought of a Tory Government, the option is always there for you to Go North.
Me? I am happy to stay in the South of England. The weather is great, the countryside beautiful and the people are (on the whole) very pleasant company.
I would wish the same for everyone in the UK.
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Bawsupoantheslates
You obviously have not been following Belgium politics in the last year. And please explain to me how Scotland is paying for the development of London?s east end? Oil may be $146 a barrel today but that is just a recent phenomenon.
I?m sorry but after reading some of the SNP drivel on this blogg in the past couple of days I have to go into rant mode
1. The SNP are not campaigning for Independence they just want to shift sovereignty to Europe.
2. A so called independent Scotland would have less control over its culture and economy that it does now,
3. The English have not oppressed the Scottish over the last 400 year. My reading of history is that the English and Scottish formed a partnership to oppress the rest of the world.
4. Scotland is Scotland and not Ireland or Norway
5. Thatcher caused damage all over the UK (including London)
6. Urban poverty is a sad reality across the Western developed world
7. The SNP?s attitude to other Scots who disagree with them stinks and is bordering on the undemocratic
8. Scotland is not a third world county most of its population enjoy a life that many other?s in the world envy.
9. Stop trying to stir the augment up my introducing English/Scottish racism into the mix.
10. Independence in its self will not fix any of the social/economic problem
11. Post-independence the Scottish Labour party will still be a power in Scotland. (probably more so than the SNP who would have lost their reason to be)
12. An awful lot of you Scots (I?m half English/ half Scottish or what?s that word British) would be happier voting Tory because you are natural Tory?s at hart.
Rant over
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mcjbrown
You've obviously not been following UK politics at all!
1. I never mentioned oil, i mentioned taxes and how the council tax raise is predominantly for the Olympic games. Not seen any articles regarding the out of control spending?
2. How can we have less control over our economy if we were independant? I look forward to that response
3. Scotland was sold by lowland lairds, and we then inherited a massive debt. Us being the oppressed.
4. Scotland is regionalised at the moment Not not Ireland or Norway so you are correct there.
5. Labour did absolutely Zero during the Thatcher years
6. Scotland has one of the worse economic and health records, we actually look forward to recessions so that giro's go that wee bit further
7. Scottish Labour would be welcome in an independant scotland, as would the tories, lib dems et al.
8. Racism? Never even mentioned that
9. You Scots?
10. Get Real
Retort over
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bawsupoantheslates it may have passed you by but Scotland is getting a lot of the training venues for the London Olympics the same way as other cities outside Glasgow will provide training venues for the commonwealth games. Its not up for debate its a fact!
Money has gone into the East End of Glasgow - some projects have worked others have failed - more is needed - also a fact.
Going by your arguement to you also begrudge some of your tax money going towards international development projects or is that ok because they're not english?
Your arguements are one of the main reasons I will never vote Nationalist - its all to 'what have the romans ever done for us?' and no substance!
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mcjbrown:
I think the rest of the Bloggers would appreciate that you do not transform this debate into Scottish Independence, what money goes where etc etc
Thanks
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There is no doubt that there is an unsatisfactory level of social deprevation in some parts of Glasgow, and elsewhere in Scotland, but to pin hopes on this being erradicated by the simple expedient of shouting "Independence", as some on this blog are apt to do, is alarmingly naive. There is as much (in some inner cities more) poverty and deprevation south of the border. This isn't a problem with the union; it is a problem of the modern world.
Like it or not, the UK, whether united as one country or broken down into its constituent nations, cannot compete with the manufacturing might of the emerging nations in a global market. Not unless you would vote for reducing the take-home pay of British workers to those of the millions in India, China, and a dozen other places in the far east, where the weekly wage wouldn't keep a Scotsman in cigarettes for the day. Shipbuilding on the Clyde is as good as gone, not because they didn't build good ships, but because they couldn't do it as cheaply as the yards in Korea. Mines couldn't produce the coal at a price that would compare. Textile factories couldn't compete with the sweatshops of India or the Phillipines and so they closed. None of this will change just because Scotland is suddenly independent, and none of it was caused because she wasn't.
The problems in parts of Glasgow, (and Liverpool, Birmingham, Sheffield and several other British cities) is that manual workers relied for their living on industries that have gone, and would have gone even if Margaret Thatcher had never been born, but either haven't tried, or haven't been offered the chance, to re-train in something else. Looking back with nostalgia to some misty-eyed ideal of a time when men came home from the yards or the mines with the grime of honest toil on their hands will not solve the problems that these inner-city areas across the UK face today. Nor will it help to place the blame for their existence upon the union. Those who are really fooled into believing that independence will transform Scotland overnight into a blossoming tiger economy, where every man, woman and child basks in the warmth of the sunny economic uplands, will not only find themselves hugely disappointed if they get their wish, but will also discover that they have lost the only excuse they have had for any and every misfortune that they or Scotland encounters - the union. What's more, deep down, I think Alex Salmond knows this.
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As an outsider (I consider myself a Yorkshireman above all else) it seems that the Nats on here need both a History and Geography lesson.
Both countries benefited greatly from the Act of Union. How Scotland?s economy improved is highlighted in great deal by that well known biased Englishman Adam Smith in The Wealth of Nations.
As for the geography do they realise that they?re other parts of England other than London that will not be benefiting from the Olympics and are just as poor as the east end of Glasgow. Also all of Yorkshires? North Sea Gas money is being stolen by those evil southerners when it could be used to fund the economy of an independent Yorkshire!!!
Sorry went off on a bit of a tangent there. Seriously though this is not an England v Scotland matter it?s about what is best for the people of Glasgow. Ultimately it is only the Labour Party who will represent their interests.
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Right Thomas! I never thought I'd say that. Some of the recent interventions have been in the Yah! Boo! category (into which the independence debate always falls) and are unworthy of a good blog, and a disservice to the people of Glasgow East.
Time to move on.
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bawsupoantheslates
1. I never mentioned oil, i mentioned taxes and how the council tax raise is predominantly for the Olympic games. Not seen any articles regarding the out of control spending?
You are right you did not mention oil, As for overspends you could include the £600 million on health care and the millions on higher education. Direct subsides from the taxpayer to the Scottish middle classes and not East Glasgow.
2. How can we have less control over our economy if we were independant? I look forward to that response
Because (as I understand) the plan is to adopt the Euro so Europe will control monetary policy, plus tax harmonisation in Europe will mean loss of control of fiscal policy
3. Scotland was sold by lowland lairds, and we then inherited a massive debt. Us being the oppressed.
I bow to your greater knowledge of Scottish history but I?m pretty sure that these ?lowland lairds? weren?t English.
4. Scotland is regionalised at the moment Not not Ireland or Norway so you are correct there.
I?m not sure what you point is here. My point is Ireland and Norway did not get to where they are today over night.
5. Labour did absolutely Zero during the Thatcher years
Who mentioned Labour? All I?m saying is Thatcher?s policies harmed the English and Welsh just as much as the Scots
6. Scotland has one of the worse economic and health records, we actually look forward to recessions so that giro's go that wee bit further
I honestly do not think independence in its self will fix poverty in Scotland. That is not to say that a post independence government could not improve this situation but that the independence debate is a diversion here.
7. Scottish Labour would be welcome in an independant scotland, as would the tories, lib dems et al.
Agreed but then this prompts the question what will independence actually change. Same old Same old
8. Racism? Never even mentioned that
You did not mention racism, I was reacting to many earlier post this week.
9. You Scots?
You don?t get do you, I don?t see why I should have to choose.
10. Get Real
Well most of my relative voted Tory before they switched to SNP
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#50 sheepymatt2008
I think it is your good self who should be taking the history and geography lessons. To the best of my knowledge, Adam Smith was not an Englishman, he was a Scot, born in Kirkaldy, and who lived most of his life in Scotland. As far as I know, his only real spell in England was to attend Oxford university, which he found to be grossly inferior to Glasgow university.
You are correct on one point only. This is not an England v Scotland matter, it is about what's best for the people of Glasgow.
Voting for Labour because your father and grandfather before him did is not in the best interests of anyone.
As for your final sentence, well, what can I say?...
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# 53 Richard_the_rougue
Congratulations on being able to use wikipedia. Of course Adam Smith was a Scot. It what we English people call sarcasm (yes I know the lowest form of wit) My point was that it?s not only English people who realised the benefits of the Union
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Richard_the_Rouge I'm thinking maybe sheepymatt2008s yorkshire humour has not travelled well across the border. It is pretty obvious he knows Adam Smith is a Scot and that his tongue is was firmly in his cheek!
Though back to the matter in hand. I'm yet to hear what the nationalist are going to promise the people of Glasgow East as yet its all 'aren't the other lot terrible' and 'if only we had oil money'. There needs to be continued regeneration money and help to get people back to work and indeed change the attitudes of the ones who don't want to work. I'll say it again there is no overnight solution.
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Brian,
I bring news from the East!
I have lived here in Mount Vernon (G32) for 10 years and never once seen anyone electioneering,
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Brian,
I bring news from the East!
I've lived in Mount Vernon (G32) for 10 years and have never seen anyone electioneering.
Last night the street was inundated with Labour party folk knocking on doors and asking for your vote - but "we do not as yet know who our candidate will be!"
A case of knee-jerk reaction one might think?
I will keep you posted!
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I'm thinking maybe sheepymatt2008s yorkshire humour has not travelled well across the border.
Ah, silly me. You never can tell on this blog, really.
Both countries benefited greatly from the Act of Union.
Then again, I really should have spotted all that sarcasm.
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Brian,
And the Tommyman IS a candidate!!
http://www.theherald.co.uk/politics/news/display.var.2378784.0.Battle_lines_drawn_up_for_Glasgow_East_byelection.php
Game on!!
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