'Smoking ban' moment
Health Secretary Nicola Sturgeon had plainly done her research before launching the package of proposed measures to tackle alcohol abuse and misuse.
She noted in passing she was aware that "courageous" decisions in politics could frequently unravel.
This was, of course, based upon an extensive study of the core work in political science: the box set of Yes Minister.
Whichever way up, this package is bold/courageous/radical. As Sir Humphrey would remind you, that does not make it intrinsically wise/sensible/practical.
Nor, of course, for the avoidance of doubt, does it make it a bad idea. It is open to objective scrutiny.
The main points in summary. Ministers want to increase the offsales age from 18 to 21, to set a minimum price for drink based on alcohol content, to end discount offers, to introduce alcohol-only checkouts at big shops, to levy a social responsibility fee on some retailers and to boost spending to address alcohol problems.
Big idea
Partly, I suspect, this is the SNP's "smoking ban" moment. Indeed, Ms Sturgeon set the measures in the context of a continuum of public health policy - including the ban on smoking in public places.
It is, in short, a Big Idea. A big idea which is now out for consultation. So why not start the debate here? Here are a few thoughts to get you going:
Ministers say we can't wait any longer to tackle the underlying culture, we have to amend policy.
The big levers on alcohol, they say, are price and availability - but are they right to target alcohol by volume, which shoves up the price of drinks like white cider while leaving malt and blended whisky alone?
Would the new plans clash with competition law? Ministers say no.
Can Holyrood tackle prices when they don't control duties? Ministers say yes, it's like the old-style RRP (recommended retail price.)
Is it right to bar under-21s from off licences? What about students? Shouldn't we enforce existing laws rather than introducing more?
Over to you.
I'm 
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~32~RS~)
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I am fairly happy that the Scottish National Parties attempt to reduce underage binge drinking.
"...to set a minimum price for drink based on alcohol content,..."
However, stated above I am unhappy that they shall introduce the minimum price for a drink based on alcohol content.
Shall this increase the cost of alcohol for the members of public? If so, then how will the pubs and clubs cope with the added costs? If this does generate more income then will the Scottish Government benefit from the extra income that is created?
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Right, i'm a third year university student, and I really can't quite believe that the SNP are seriously proposing this.
So if I want to have a night in watching the football on the telly with a few mates, I will be a criminal if I buy a few beers for us to enjoy?
If I go to a dinner party, it will be illegal for me to buy a bottle of wine to take round???
I can quite happily drive a car, smoke a cigarette, pay taxes or get married, but they're going to prevent me purchasing a bottle of pinot grigio from Morrisons. Are they off their heads???
Stop tarring all young people as criminals, and stop trying to ban everything that moves. I enjoy a bit of alcohol. I'm not a binge drinker. Don't make me a criminal.
(And i'll never make the mistake of voting for the SNP, thats for sure!)
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twentyferrey:
Could you suggest examples of how you can reduce the levels of binge drinking in this country?
It is easy to criticise a Bill.
Much harder to find an alternative soltion.
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As an 18 year old, I find this measure a bit insulting. I can vote, I can smoke, I can (and do) have a mortgage and a driving license, I can serve in the military and I can stand for parliament but I can't be trusted with a bottle of whisky? Seems just a bit incongruous. Binge drinking's a big problem, but it isn't everyone 18-21 doing it - we need more enforcement of current laws, not this shoddy attempt.
The SNP came to power offering students and young people the world. Dumping student debt, creating new jobs and improving starter housing sound very nice, but the nats have barely done a thing. And now they're trying to pull this useless stunt, despite having no mandate for it!
I applaud the lib dems for their principled stance on this issue, and it gladdens me to see the tories standing firm too. I can only hope the labour party comes to its senses and opposes this third rate assault on young people.
PS - Since this all came out, no-one seems to have mentioned that the Greens are firmly in the lib-dem camp of principle objection to this. I'm not a Green; I just thought I'd mention.
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I'm in favour of just about all these plans.
We live in a country blighted by addiction to alcohol. Unlike most other problems it is not only confined to the 10miles around Glasgow but affects every town and village in our country. As yet no solution has been found which goes any way to addressing this problem. I'm all for the Scottish Government trying whatever it feels will work.
At Christmas time my local supermarket were offering 40 bottles of Bud or Stella for £20. For far too many that is an offer they could not refuse. Why is beer cheaper than water?
People will disagree that this is a good idea but we all have a limited amount of money to spend, increasing the cost of alcohol should decrease the amount bought and therefore binged.
As for under 21s not being allowed to buy in off licences again this can only help solve the blight that is underage drinking on our streets. By 21 people are slightly more responsible (hence why you see very few 21 year olds drinking in the street).
Whilst they are increasing the price of white lightning and Stella could they reduce the price of fine wine and ales to offset it! :-)
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Brian:
There's an old rule in comedy: make sure your audience is familiar with what you're referencing as a source for the humour - otherwise the "joke" is going to fall very flat indeed.
For anyone who isn't 100% familiar with "Yes Minister" (and there are a lot) it just sounds as if you're saying Ms Sturgeon's knowledge of alcohol and drug problems is based on watching a boxed set of DVDs.
Oh dear.
I don't think your quite ready for the Festival Fringe yet, Brian!
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Thomas Porter:
Maybe we could have the current laws enforced before we add unnecessary new ones? I'm not against the idea of minimum pricing per se, I'm just a bit miffed that the government thinks I can't be trusted with a six pack lest I run amok.
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I am broadly in favour of the suggestions if a little uneasy about the off-sales restrictions. This is an issue which needs addressing even if it proves unpopular with some. However, I would like to see more support offered to the retailers as they are the people who have to enforce the law. Many off-sales are from small family run outlets where there are, maybe, only one or two staff on duty. It is quite possible that they can feel intimidated when a group of young people are in the shop who may or may not be old enough to purchase alcohol.
I noticed that in Australia alcohol sales are from dedicated off-licences rather than supermarkets and general stores. This does seem to make it more difficult to buy alcohol underage - particularly as a loss of an alcohol license will entirely shut the business down. Possibly this is a direction which we should look in.
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The age group most at risk from the consequences of the binge drinking culture are the 15-25 age group.
This debate, these proposed measures that have been shown to reduce those risks for this age group in particular and the hopes we can change this damaging culture of drinking is to be welcomed.
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unknownunknowns:
Could you explain which Laws can be enforced that the Police Service are currently not enforcing?
I am going for a jog and shall return to properly reply back to your comment.
;-)
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Thomas Porter:
If the problem is drinking in the streets, how about banning drinking in the streets, whether the drinking is being done by 20-year old students, or 50-year old alcoholics?
Or, even better, just enforcing existing laws on breach of the peace.
I have no problem with particular regulations being applied in particular problem areas, or against particular problem people. But extending that to criminalise the huge majority of 18-21 year olds, and enormously restrict their liberty, even when they are not being anti-social in the slightest, is a move that is going to be deeply offensive to most young people. I'm so dissappointed in this government.
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Right, i'm a third year university student, and I really can't quite believe that the SNP are seriously proposing this.
So if I want to have a night in watching the football on the telly with a few mates, I will be a criminal if I buy a few beers for us to enjoy?
A simple alternative presents itself. You can sign up for a three year degree in England. So you'll save a year of accommodation and food etc compared with Scotland plus with the money you save you'll be able to expand your liver properly.
Watch for an entire generation of the smarter Scottish students who can score an English university place to disappear south of the border for ever. I mean once you're there and you've met a nice English boyfriend/girlfriend and what with the weather being so much better.... Why would you bother going back?
In return England will send its legions of dimwits to fill the under-demand Scottish universities. 50% university educated. They're having a laugh. Aren't they.
Alex hasn't thought this one through.
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Brian
I aggree with the comments made by 2# twentyferret, it does seem mad that the age limit is being increased.
This is scatter gun politic's hitting everyone just to get the few who are the real problem, there must be a way of dealing directly with the problem people.
I am sadly nolonger in the age bracket that will be effected by this, but I can understand the frustration of those who are.
I can also see the need to make our streets safer and stop the drunks spoiling life for the decent people of Scotland.
A major rethink is required, dealing directly with the real problem people, not kicking all of us.
Steve h (An SNP supporter)
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This has me seriously worried. Does Nicola Sturgeon actually think that setting a minimum price for alcohol will cut underage drinking? If she does she's on another planet. No matter how much drink costs, the little 'street rats' will still be able to get their hands on it. Don't we already have laws preventing the sale of alcohol to minors? And don't we have laws against drinking in public spaces? Perhaps Ms Sturgeon would be better having a word with the Lord Advocate and Crown Office and get them to advise sheriffs to deal vigourously with youth offending. At present, most young offenders know that nothing will happen to them.
The sheer lunacy of raising the age to 21 has me almost breathless. If someone is old enough to vote, they are in my book, old enough to buy and drink alcohol. The problem of street troubles when the clubs empty could be dealt with at a stroke by severely hammering publicans who sell to people who have obviously had enough. In my day, the polis used to routinely pop into all the establishments to check that the rules were being adhered to and sanctions were applied to any transgressors.
If you're found out of your face in the street, fines in four figures would soon make them think before they got tanned into the 'breezers'. If they defaulted on the fines, a wee stay in a nice open prison with their own chanty might help crystalise their minds. So-called, 'happy hours' should get the heave-ho too as they simply encourage over indulgence.
If Nicola and company press on with this rubbish, they needn't be surprised if they find themselves out in the cold at the next election. I'm a grown-up and I'm not having a wee slip of girl telling me how much I should pay for my drink! Think on!
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The plans are crazy and laughable, especially when you consider the SNP would like to give 16 year olds the vote (clearly motivated by the fact that younger people are more likely to vote SNP).
They are too feart to deal with the actual problem, so they're throwing a blanket of idiotic legislation over everyone - the guilty and the innocent.
I wont be voting for them again if they dont re-think this stupidity.
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#12 U9461192:
Some wise advice there :) In all seriousness, though, it will be factor that people would take into account. I narrowly picked Edinburgh over Durham when I chose my university ? if this sort of law had been imposed at the time, I might well have chosen differently. Nobody wants to stay in a country when they are unwelcome there.
I hope Alex Salmond reconsiders. He promised to listen to young people at the last election. If instead he's just going to treat us all as yobs, for the benefit of some easy headlines in the tabloids, then I could never vote for him or his party again.
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Sure we have a binge drinking culture and, sure, something has to be done about it and, sure, this is something. That is where agreement ends. Not only are these proposals an assault on responsible young people but they will deny poor people the small pleasures, not to say relief, of affordable wines and the occasional glass of beer. Wealthy people can carry on regardless.
I have been voting (mostly) SNP since the 70s. Now I am expected to support this , to agree to the continuation of the monarchy when I have been a republican all my life, remain with Sterling when we should most certainly be in the Euro, and accept the abominations known as faith schools.
Is there another road to independence? The SNP is working hard at losing my vote and might just succeed..
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twentyferret:
Drinking on the streets is already not allowed.
I am quite happy as a sixteen year old that the Government is finally combating against underage drinking.
The whole point that 18, 19 and 20 years olds shall be unable to buy alcohol in shops and buying their brother or sisters some at the same time or their younger friends who may look far to young to get into pubs and clubs.
I am unhappy at the same time that I can no longer look forward to my first legal pint at home once I am 18 but if I was the Government and was having to pay hundreds of millions annually to pay for alcohol abuse I would not hesitate to limit who can buy alcohol at shops etc etc
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"But extending that to criminalise the huge majority of 18-21 year olds, and enormously restrict their liberty, even when they are not being anti-social in the slightest, is a move that is going to be deeply offensive to most young people. I'm so dissappointed in this government."
So twentyferret would you argue for the abolition of the 18 age limit for buying cigarettes, porn, alcohol? The majority of under 18's are having their liberties restricted in your opinion surely 4 year olds should be allowed to go out and get wasted on a Friday night?
(this next sentence will be shot down in flames) The problem is we sometimes need to restrict peoples liberties to ensure others dont hurt themselves. I would happily give up drinking if it was going to improve the lives of millions of Scots who are blighted by alcoholisim.
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Thomas Porter:
"The whole point that 18, 19 and 20 years olds shall be unable to buy alcohol in shops and buying their brother or sisters some at the same time or their younger friends who may look far to young to get into pubs and clubs."
Sorry? What? If thats the justification for this, then its even more ridiculous than I thought. I don't want to buy my hypothetical younger brother alcohol. I want to buy drinks to be enjoyed by me and my friends, all of who are over-18, in the comfort of one of our flats or houses. Causing no trouble for anyone.
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Thomas Porter:
I think I'm in the same boat as twentyferret here. We should crack down on the people committing the actual crimes, not criminalise a largely law-abiding section of society. In Glasgow, for instance, drinking outdoors is banned but the enforcement is terrible. Maybe more police on the streets (as in the SNP's manifesto) are what's needed?
Though I haven't posted here before, I've read the comments for a while, and I seem to remember that you are 16. How do you feel about the government telling you it'll be 5 years before you're adult enough to go into a shop and buy a bottle of wine?
I just think I should be able to have a bottle of champagne with my mates to celebrate the end of our exams, or a bottle of ale to have with my dinner. I'm a student, I live in my own place, I have a job: how come I can't be trusted?
Stenhousemuir Nil:
Some states in the US do this too. It sounds like a good idea: rather than let the huge supermarkets offer bargain basement deals and force off-licenses out of business, support the small businessperson.
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I can see both sides of the arguement, the i'm old enought to get married, vote or join the army but i'm not going to be old enough to buy beer in the off sales. And of course the other side the youngsters drinking in the street or lane and usually causing trouble or at least a disturbance outside peoples homes.
I think that the SNP is trying to say between 18-21 you are a "new drinker" and can only do it in a pub under the watchful eye of the landlord/bouncer.
But once again it will be the poorest who suffer. The ones that can maybe only afford a cheap bottle of wine at home with the tv rather than a trip to the pub.
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Why not just ban alcohol sales completely then? After all, nothing in these new measures will stop those of legal age from buying booze for underage drinkers, which happens now.
I see nothing in these measures which will make the police make use of the powers they already have in relation to people drinking in public.
And it seems a bit idiotic that someone who is legally old enough to serve in the armed forces could potentially be allowed to kill for Queen and country, but not buy a drink in a Scottish off license??
Thomas_Porter - I realise you are one of the SNP's greatest fans, but I cannot believe you are serious. You really think it's OK to tar *everyone* under 21 with the same 'can't be trusted with booze' brush?
And for the record - most of the drunks/drinkers I see in the street are *well* over 21!!
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#19 - that is your choice. But you cannot make that choice for everyone else - and neither can the SNP.
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I'm not entirely sure of these proposals, but first some clarifications.
2 twentyferret
I don't think these plans would criminalise you. If they are set up in the same way as the laws on tobacco sales then you would not get into trouble, but shops who sold you the alcohol would.
18 Thomas_Porter
You can still look forward to your first legal pint at home, you will still be able to drink at home or in a pub, its just that you won't be able to make the purchase.
Firstly, the SNP can no longer be accused on only pursuing populist policies; that's for sure.
This is more of an attempted culture change than a simple policy, and I think it's very courageous.
While there will be a lot of unhappy punters out there, if this goes ahead, at least in the first couple of years.
However, if this works, as it has done in the pilot in West Lothian, it could save a great many lives, and dramatically reduce crime, injuries and illness.
In a few years time, those that have missed out (due to age) will have grown up and might got over it due to their coming of age at 21. They may also reflect on the positive effect of the changes.
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Clearly, none of this might work, and indeed will restrict some liberties for young people. The issue is, is it sensible to try? In my judgment, it is worth a try, as the problems caused by a drinking culture are so extreme.
All the evidence is that the most effective way of controlling many matters is by using economics. I think it is sensible to ensure alcohol is sifficiently expensive to make people think twice. It is absurd that it is much more expensive to buy water, milk and other "natural" drink products than alcohol.
Although I think a case can be made for addressing enforcement of existing laws rather than raising age limits, I am willing to give it a go, in the wider interests of society.
Unlike many other posters I do not see this as party political. I also understand it is a consultation, rather than a bill or executive order. If the posters have better thought out proposals to change the drink culture, great. Share the ideas in the consultation and contribute in a positive way to the debate.
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22 aeroFormac
"But once again it will be the poorest who suffer. The ones that can maybe only afford a cheap bottle of wine at home with the tv rather than a trip to the pub."
I think it important to bear in mind, for balance, that it is already the poorest who suffer from alcohol problems. People of any class or age can develop alcohol problems, but it's the poorest communities that are hardest hit by drink problems. And it's the poorest drinkers whose lives are damaged most by alcohol problems.
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twentyferret:
"I don't want to buy my hypothetical younger brother alcohol. I want to buy drinks to be enjoyed by me and my friends, all of who are over-18, in the comfort of one of our flats or houses."
I do agree with you. I do enjoy drinking at my friends house having a laugh.
However, I am not going to look the other way when I know of people younger then I am who have drunk themselves silly. Obviosly having no clue that they will deffinetly feel different in five minutes time when the alcohol kicks in. Quite irresponsible to the person who bought them the alcohol, no?
Question:
How do we stop the 18-21 year olds from sharing their alcohol or buying their friends who may be younger alcohol?
If you can figure this out then I am sure the Scottish Government would back you.
unknownunknowns:
"We should crack down on the people committing the actual crimes, not criminalise a largely law-abiding section of society."
Totally agree with you. There are far to many shops and few police and then you would have to police these shops for hours when they should be solving murders and policing hot spots.
"Thomas_Porter - I realise you are one of the SNP's greatest fans, but I cannot believe you are serious. You really think it's OK to tar *everyone* under 21 with the same 'can't be trusted with booze' brush?"
Yes. I am the Nationalists bestest friend. However, my friends may argue for me that alcohol is also my greatest friend also.
;-)
The only reason I am supporting this Bill is because I feel that the binge drink culture has gone out of control.
The NHS is being overloaded by alcohol abuse by 15-21 year olds at the weekend and it is INCREDIBLY difficult to police the shop premises for potential law breakers.
It ends up costing our country hundreds of millions as far to billions to help fix alcohol problems.
If the SNP had said that at 18 I could no longer legally enter a Pub/Club then I would totally disagre with them as it would be a strong attack against my Social Life.
However, since this is an attack on the potential of young adults supplying the binge culture I have to support it.
I know it happens because as a under ager where do you think I get my alcohol?
From someone who is able to buy it from the shops...
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Perhaps, Thomas Porter when you are old enough to drink in the pub but not at home you'll see how ludicrous this law is.
I find it humourous that you come to defend this policy when you can't really understand it's implications - so desperate are you to applaud the SNP, that at times it's embarrassing.
The SNP have lost the plot on this one - Nicola Sturgeon has usually struck me as quite sensible, but I now have my doubts.
As others have stated, if the problem here is binge drinking and antisocial behaviour in streets then how about we tackle that.
The law states it is illegal to be drunk within a licensed premises - so how about a few more officers looking into clubs and pubs and enforcing that - stick the offenders in a cell for the night or fine them, but make them think twice about over doing it again.
Most local bye-laws prohibit drinking in public - so how about seizing alcohol from underagers drinking in the streets? - again putting them in the cells for the night, informing their parents, possibly fining their parents and making them go on mandatory parenting classes.
As for making alcohol more expensive - well, booze is cheaper in Southern Europe and they don't have this problem, interestingly in Scandinavia where alcohol is more expensive binge drinking is an issue.
And perhaps the tabloids could stop idolizing what are loosely called celebrities these days and taking pictures of them stumbling drunk out of clubs.
Strange, how the papers revered hard drinkers like Gazza and George Best rather than suggest they had problems.
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My comment at 5.02 got mixed up with the blog site on drugs.Obviously it is on drink.Can you redirect it during moderation?
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Granted we have a problem but altering price or changing age limits is not the solution. Education has to play a big part but the best way to start cracking this nut is enforcement of the current laws. Lets return to having a visible Police Presence on foot in the appropriate areas at appropriate times and shock horror let the cops do their job, enforce the law. I am a retired police inspector and as a young cop in Glasgow and the Highlands had to deal with the problems of alcohol induced anti-social behavior every day and we simply enforced the law.The problem was then either locked up, taken home or sent on their way. Appropriate follow-up through the courts,children's panel or parental discipline took place and any offending licensees dealt with. As far as I am aware the same common-laws apply updated statute law is in place as is the support system for under 16 so get the cops back out there and let them get on with it.
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Blackivar:
Because I am a Nationalist you can not possibly hold that against me.
I am commenting as a person who is an underage drinker. A person, according to statistics contributes a great amount to the binge culture.
I am supporting the Bill because I know darn well that will harm the supplies of alcohol to younger children.
Agian, I would not support the Bill if it stopped me from entering a Pub/Club legally when I am 18 because I would see that as a stronger attack against my own Social Life.
However, it does not matter if this Law is passed or not. I shall be able to continue buy alcohol from shops.
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Some of the younger posters on this blog need to take a step back and a few deep breaths!!
This in not a policy document which will be implemented as is!!
This is a consultive, discussion document which is seeking to secure cross-party support for a most serious issue. Therefore there will be a fair bit of 'give and take' before a final version arrives which, hopefully, the whole Parliament can endorse.
That means there will be a few 'headline grabbers' which may well be traded along the way in order to gain the necessary cross-party support.
This document is a starting point. A starting point that's long been needed.
The SNP deserves full credit for tackling this problem head-on and not being afraid of making courageous suggestions.
It's open to all of us to make sensible considered suggestions since the nation cannot afford to let this curse of the Scottish nation fester any further.
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SOME young people will drink until either their money runs out or they fall down unconscious.
In a pub, club, etc., there is a duty upon the licensee to stop serving someone who is demonstrably drunk and incapable; offsales retailers should not sell to someone who is already drunk but will happily sell 24 cans of lager to a single individual still sober at the time of purchase.
Although age is not always a reliable indicator, one might assume that a 21-year-old is more likely to be responsible - if only because there are so many other calls upon their finances - than an 18-year-old.
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freedjmac:
That's true, there will certainly be a lot of give and take. But that's why we need to articulate our views nice and clearly. It'd be a great help if everyone opposed to this wrote to their MSPs - particularly Labour, since they'll decide this.
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Thomas, your zeal for the SNP is well documented here - and this just bears out your unquestioning support.
But on this point, surely you should be taking pause.
You freely admit you already break the law by drinking below the legal age limit - how then by banning more people from drinking will this change anything - will this really stop you?
A majority of people who cause trouble at the weekend will be either habitual drinkers or youths aged between 14 - 17.
This bill will not prevent them getting their hands on alcohol for long and if, as indeed we are constantly told, the drinking stems from a lack of activities and things to do, surely this ban will only force them to find other sources of entertainment - I dread to think of the drugs figures that would follow.
I have stated what I believe the government should be doing - why don't you have a think about it instead of towing the party line either that or just go back to underage drinking, you claim you won't be able to do it for long.
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"How do we stop the 18-21 year olds from sharing their alcohol or buying their friends who may be younger alcohol?"
I dunno - how to we stop 21-24 year olds from sharing their alcohol or buying their friends who may be younger alcohol?
Wait! I know! Why not ban anyone younger than 24 from off-licenses!
Hey - it's less hassle than actually targetting the problem of underage drinking. Police can't be bothered doing that anyway, so it's a non-starter.
I'm sure there are many societal problems that we could deal with by applying blanket measures regardless of their applicability. How about a nice healthy tax-raising levy on high-sugar foods?
It's hilarious how this stupid proposal is being hailed as 'courageous' by SNP spinners on this thread. Courageous is indeed another way of saying 'idiotic, and contemptuous of the electorate'.
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unknownunknowns - you are quite right. I am actually surprised this is an SNP bill and not Labour - it's more in keeping with their "let's restrict everyone's freedoms to protect us" policies.
They seem to like bans - perhaps Brian is right this is the SNP's attempt at a smoking ban.
Not all legacies are good ones - ask Robert Oppenheimer.
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The SNP think 16 is old enough to vote but you have to be 21 to buy a can of beer? Crazy.
Welcome to Salmond's brave new Scotia.
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Some wise advice there :) In all seriousness, though, it will be factor that people would take into account. I narrowly picked Edinburgh over Durham when I chose my university
I did my post-grad at Durham. Fantastic town centre and great setting what with river, Castle and Cathedral and great pubs but very town 'v' gown. Plus place full of insanely wealthy 'Rah' Oxbridge rejects. On the up-side, as a postgrad, you got to choose your halls of residence.
Castle it is then. My kids were so impressed when we dropped in last year on a quick trip south.
You went to school in a castle? Oh yeah. Come, my little ones, let me show you to the bar.
Oh yeah.
All those potential SNP voters replaced by English ABS [Anybody But Salmond] voters. He'll never go for it. At least till after independence. And even then he's still depriving himself of the services of generations of the more able Scots graduates and replacing them with the vast numptitude of England.
When I was doing my 'A' levels 25 years ago you were only allowed to apply to five universities. You were encouraged to put down any old Scottish university at number five because they'd take you with two 'E's. A kind of insurance policy in case you had brain freeze on exam day. I picked Dundee from fresh air. Imagine my shock and horror to go there (Dundee) for the first time six years ago. Jeez. I'd have run a mile if I'd ended up in Dundee. It looked like Paschendale decorated with a statue of Desperate Dan. It makes Liverpool look like Madrid.
Point is, you're not going to want the English students who'd settle for Dundee. The epitome of their ambition will be a 'job' with the council.
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Blackivar:
"You freely admit you already break the law by drinking below the legal age limit - how then by banning more people from drinking will this change anything - will this really stop you?"
This Bill will stop the 18-21 year old from purchasing alcohol and sharing their alcohol with under agers.
I have known of a few who stand outside shops and ask someone if they can purchase alcohol for them and usually do.
"...why don't you have a think about it instead of towing the party line either that or just go back to underage drinking, you claim you won't be able to do it for long."
I actually stated this Law will not effect me, not one bit. The reason I support it will be because I know it will effect others.
but please quit holding my Nationalism against me. I was a deep supporter of Labour and then slowly turned towards the Tories before I started to support the SNP.
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"in your opinion surely 4 year olds should be allowed to go out and get wasted on a Friday night?"
So apparently, disagreeing with a ban on 18-21 year olds shopping at off-licenses is the same as wanting the drinking age lowered to 4.
In fact, this is not the case.
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see nothing in these measures which will make the police make use of the powers they already have in relation to people drinking in public.
And what's wrong with drinking in public as long as you're not causing any disorder? We used (as twenty-somethings) get a whole bunch down to the big parks in London and have a most refreshing day out with plenty of food and drink with perhaps a game of football or cricket to work up a thirst. No swearing at old ladies just a good day in the park.
In fact I've seen blokes fielding in cricket matches standing next to their pint. A bit like darts players used to. What about it?
And a damned sight cheaper than sitting in the pub all day.
Not to be confused with the Buckfast posse of Tillicoultry who like nothing better in the long summer weekends than to wander 100 yards up the hill and practice their long-distance swearing. And smash their bottles in the fields. That's the kind of public drinking Plod should be concerned with.
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I am not criticising you for your nationalism, I am criticising you for your blind obedience.
Allthough, I do enjoy your attempts to rationalise it.
Such as: "This Bill will stop the 18-21 year old from purchasing alcohol and sharing their alcohol with under agers."
Oh so, people aged 22 wouldn't buy alcohol for underagers. That's okay then.
And "I actually stated this Law will not effect me, not one bit"
So, you will still get your alcohol and drink at home or heaven forfend in the street?
Then why bother with this bill? You've admitted it will fail.
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Personally I would like to see stronger consequences to under age drinkers.
Going by statistics these types appear to be the trouble-makers within society.
I would support that these people are sent to an Army-style Boot Camp where they live an Army Life. They can continue their education for minors within an Army astmosphere, boarding school type and for those who have legally left school they will under-go specail treatment to be brought up within an Army atmosphere and taught about respect and working with others and pretty much so they can learn some sense.
From personal experience the Army can make you one of the most hated figures within your sections.
You quickly learn that if you want the privilages in life then you shut up and get on with what was asked of you. If the Corperals can't change you then the others in your section will make you change.
Unlucky for me that the person never learnt and I had to suffer collective punishment for the short time I was with the Army.
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Thomas-Porter wrote: "I was a deep supporter of Labour and then slowly turned towards the Tories before I started to support the SNP."
All this from a 16 year old!
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For those who do not like the bill, what is the alternative that can be put in place to stop the younger members of our society from 'getting out of their heads', 'wasted', etc, etc, etc and behaving anti-socially? Any sensible suggestions?
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Any age limit is necessarily arbitrary.
As a transitional measure, anyone born on or after 1 January 1991 - i.e. due to attain the age of 18 during 2009 or later - should have to be 21 to effect offsales purchases.
The anomaly would be that someone born on 31 December 1990 would be able to buy offsales three years earlier than someone just one day younger, and - for the hypothetically-inclined - twins born either eisde of midnight would be differently treated in law.
As to pricing of alcohol, pricing should be so as to make pubs CHEAPER than offsales - and licensed premises should be even more diligent in monitoring alcohol consumption.
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"From personal experience the Army can make you one of the most hated figures within your sections."
You mean the cadets?
You are such fun!
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It's hilarious how this stupid proposal is being hailed as 'courageous' by SNP spinners on this thread. Courageous is indeed another way of saying 'idiotic,
Yep. Apparently 'courageous' is parliamentary code for 'mad'.
Hence David Cameron's comment:
'Mr David Davis' decision to resign his seat is a courageous one.'
But it's divide and conquer politics from the SNP. He'll have Labour support because that fits squarely with their solution to any perceived problem. Ban it for everyone. You're not to be trusted.
Fox-hunting? I don't fox hunt. Do you? No. Okay, we'll ban that. Smoking. I don't smoke. Do you? No. Okay,we'll ban that. Drinking. I'm not under 21. Are you? No. Good, we'll ban that. Four wheel drive vehicles. I don't have one of those. Do you? No. Okay, we'll treble the tax on them.
Etc.
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I have read most of the comments, what I have not read are sensible options to deal with the problems we have.
The alcopops and cider and the like are the items bought and drunk by children not a good bottle of Scotch.
I have never yet seen a group of children standing on a corner buying and drinking a bottle of gin or whisky.
1. children as young as 8/9/10/11/12 and older drinking alcohol and because they can.
2. Laws which make the person selling the drink responsible, do not work because the children pay older people, drunks, drug addicts to go into the shop and get this drink. Older teenagers go into the shop and get this drink for younger children. Parents buy it for their teenagers as young as twelve.
3. The use of this alcohol causes not just the violence and bad behaviour we see on our streets. We are breeding a generation of future liver transplants and death from alcoholic poisoning.
4. The cost of time and injuries to the police force and the public means money that should be spent on worthwhile medical cases such as children's cancer services suffers.
Schooling is useless the children are too hung over and teachers suffer.
5. Tough is just what we need to get.
6. These measures are not enough.
7. Parents of these children need to be charged with child abuse for not keeping these children under control.
8. Cut all benefits of parents who will not control these children, especially if they are found supplying children with alcohol.
9. Huge fines or prison sentences for adults who buy alcohol for children.
10. Price this type of alcoholic drink as high as possible, make it totally unaffordable and put the extra money raised to pay for people to watch shops to find out who is buying alcohol for children.
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47. Use existing laws to confiscate alcohol from minors, detain drunks for 'their own safety/breach of the peace' and inform/fine their parents.
Do not use scatter-gun policies that punish the law-abiding majority just because of a troublesome minority.
Logic is starting to abandon SNP Central, it seems.
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Unlucky for me that the person never learnt and I had to suffer collective punishment for the short time I was with the Army.
Gosh, 16 year-olds pack in quite a bit in their young lives these days. Dalliances with all the major political parties. Trying to pick one in the ascendency for your future career? A spell in the army. You're not Prince Harry are you?
I've had my suspicions about you and the other single-sentence-paragraph nationalist for a while.
Anyway, to your point such as it is. Collective punishment. So all 18-21 year olds must suffer collective punishment for the great unwashed Burberry-clad neds of society. Real joined-up thinking there.
Why not bang up all women in case they turn to prostitution. And all men in case they turn to rape.
Better safe than sorry eh.
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LYDIA-REID: "what I have not read are sensible options to deal with the problems we have."
Well that's us told then, are you sure you have read everyone's responses?
I'm pretty sure a number of posters have made good suggestions, in particular jimmywaugh.
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Blackivar:
"Oh so, people aged 22 wouldn't buy alcohol for underagers. That's okay then."
I would be worried if a 15 year old had a 22 year old friend.
but then I would not have a problem if the 22 year old supplied the 18 year olds with alcohol.
I am only backing the Bill to stop the supply to minors.
"So, you will still get your alcohol and drink at home or heaven forfend in the street?"
I never drink out on the streets but yes you are correct this Law will not effect me.
"Then why bother with this bill? You've admitted it will fail."
The Bill will ensure that 18 year olds are not capable of supplying minors with alcohol. I have known of several who have and those minors ended up in hospital. This is irresponsible.
The Bill is not effective and will never be perfect unless you ban everyone from purchasing alcohol.
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The alcopops and cider and the like are the items bought and drunk by children not a good bottle of Scotch.
Hey, go easy on the cider. A most refreshing beverage. Made from apples so counting towards a gentleman's five-a-day.
I have never yet seen a group of children standing on a corner buying and drinking a bottle of gin or whisky.
Whisky with Coke is okay though. Quite nice actually. Trouble is the caffeine and sugar in the Coke would keep them awake so they could drink more alcohol.
I'm also here to tell you that this binge-drinking culture is nothing new. We were all tucking in fairly regularly when I was 17 and 18. Then there's university. All students permanently on the lash. That was almost a generation ago. I see no evidence of my peer group falling off their perch yet. We all have regular annual check-ups and so far nobodys had the doctor give it 'My God the whites of your eyes are yellow, you've got DT's and your liver is like Bombadier Beaumont's gong.'
Not yet anyway. The difference just seems to be the kids are a lot more feral than we were. But that's not the booze. That's a generation of lax parenting and lax educational discipline. If you banned booze completely they'd still be roaming as feral packs of neds looking to cause trouble.
Nyaaaaah. I'm a minor. You can't touch me. It's assault.
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post #51, I'd agree with you Lydia, sensible suggestions. I've seen youngsters (under 10) in my local minimarket discussing the relative merits of which drink had the highest alcohol content. They didn't try to buy any alcohol but I am fairly certain if they could have they would have. Do their parents know what they are up to, if not, why not? It's up to individuals to take responsibility for what they do and for the youngers members of our society, it's up to their parents.
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Blackivar:
"You mean the cadets?"
No. I have never been apart of Army Cadets.
U9461192:
"Anyway, to your point such as it is. Collective punishment. So all 18-21 year olds must suffer collective punishment for the great unwashed Burberry-clad neds of society. Real joined-up thinking there."
No. I suggested that the Chavs can instead be forced into an Army Boot Camp where they either continue with school (if they still go) or either spend time within the army. Doing everything the army way.
It was an alternative to jail and at least the army can use collective responsibility to help change the way these Chavs work.
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Thomas Porter: "The Bill is not effective and will never be perfect unless you ban everyone from purchasing alcohol."
You are a very strange little boy - why support this then?
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#33 I'm glad someone's showing a bit of common sense instead of just having kneejerk fits at what is a CONSULTATION DOCUMENT, no more.
My 2p is this:
Drink doesn't change your personality, all it does is reveal it. I'm 40 and I've probably been drunk at least 200 times in my life, but I've never hit anyone or driven a car or done anything else unpleasant as a result, because I'm not a cretin. (Though I did throw up a couple of times, for which I apologise to the establishments concerned.)
The problem isn't the young getting blootered, it's idiots getting blootered. There are probably slightly more idiots in the 18-21 age group than in the 21+ age group, but not all that many. So raising the age by three years isn't going to achieve much, and will have the side-effect of criminalising a lot of decent, law-abiding people.
I'd much rather see the number of places allowed to sell alcohol slashed, ideally to only dedicated premises, ie pubs and off-licences. As someone has already noted, they have a lot more to lose by not enforcing the existing age limits.
I do support the banning of special offers encouraging the purchase of extra alcohol, eg "1 case for £14, 2 cases for £20". That way you don't punish people who just want a bottle of wine with dinner, or a couple of cans in front of the football.
I also agree that MUCH sterner implementation of existing laws is a better solution than raising the price of all booze across the board. Want to price people out of bingeing? Then fine them a month's wages for drunken breach of the peace, and six months wages for a drunken punch-up on a Saturday night. (That also gets you neatly round the problem of the poor suffering inequitably.)
But here's the best idea of all. TWO drunken punch-ups and you're banned from drinking for a year (or more), with a mandatory jail sentence if you're found with alcohol in your bloodstream while banned. If you can't handle your drink, then you can't have any. Responsible drinkers don't get punished, irresponsible ones do.
Obviously you can't have police tailing the banned person around 24/7, but the thought of being reported by someone and caught - because it stays in your bloodstream for hours - and being sent straight to prison would be enough to stop people risking it. Alcohol's chemical persistence is a godsend here.
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Thomas, you claim you are 16, you claim you are studying politics in class, you claim to have "experience in the army" and you also claim to have supported three of Scotland's major parties throughout your life.
Clearly, I have been living life in the slow lane.
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No. I suggested that the Chavs can instead be forced into an Army Boot Camp where they either continue with school (if they still go) or either spend time within the army. Doing everything the army way.
You can be pretty sure the European Convention on Human Rights will have something to say about Boot Camps. You'll be paying them all thousands for the 'psychological damage and humiliation' at some point down the road.
Nope. What we need to do is what the British Army has been doing for years. Targetted recruiting drives in the local area and schools where these numbskulls hang out. Lots of colour pictures of helicopters and battleships and guns and tanks and cool stuff. Get them to sign up with promises of magical adventures and foreign travel and turn them into something genuinely useful. Grunts. Machine-gunning, for the use of.
Don't make it a punishment. Make it a career. Should give them some self-respect and get them away from their waster background and hopefully teach them a trade of some sort too. Mechanic. Telecoms. Whatever.
Instead of which the barmy NUT wanted to ban the military from recruiting in schools. On the grounds that they were appealing to impressionable young men. You've got to laugh. Not so impressionable that the teachers managed to get much into their calcified skulls in the previous 12 years though.
Hello, we're teachers. We've utterly failed. Their parents have failed. But we don't want the military to succeed where we failed 'cos it'll make us look bad.
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#55: "I would be worried if a 15 year old had a 22 year old friend."
And I would be worried if underage drinkers got panelled every night even though it's against the law. I'd be worried if parents bought their underage kids ciggies. What exactly is your point?
Make it illegal for 15 year olds to speak to 22 year olds?
Or ban everyone under the age of 22 from speaking to each other perhaps.
With these maniac measures, the SNP have really unleashed a wave of brainstorming of unparalleled creativity. Bravo, Nichola :)
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Blackivar:
"You are a very strange little boy - why support this then?"
Because the Bill stop the flow of alcohol to minors. It will not stop alcohol being brought into my hands unless a person has the same circumstances as I.
It is not effective since I will still be able to buy alcohol but will stop minors getting a hold of alcohol from their older friends.
Tom's Life Story:
As I grew up I thought Labour was great. Everyone works, everyone contributes, everyone receives the same treatments.
Course, reality soon kicks in and then I realised 'Individualism' was the Conservatives. Of course, I am far more radical then a Tory and go by 'Survival of the fittest' Don't work? Not my problem. Can't feed yourself? Not my problem. etc etc Because of my Scottish roots I began supporting the Nationalists instead of the Conservatives. I beleive in Independence and it can work well.
My friends and I signed up through school to take part in an Army thing. Just a way to show you what you face within the Army and that it is not all about wars and killing.
Now, Blackivar shall I explain anything else about my life that you are unsure of?
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U9461192:
We hold different views.
but would you agree that as an alternative to Jail the criminals can be offered to avoid Jail all together if they choose to join the forces?
Confuzatron:
The chances of a 15 year old of being friends with a 22 year old is slimmer.
In society you would have a negative reputation if you were friends with a bunch of 15 year olds.
In that type of issue I would think that the flow of alcohol would therefore never reach the hands of minors because of 22 year old.
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Hi there, I'm a second year university student currently studying Politics. I am a dedicated labour supporter and to be honest I was starting to come round to the idea of an SNP government untill now that is.
This new proposal to ban the sale of alcohol to under 21's is crazy. I am 21 so it does not affect me but alot of my friends are under 21 and the thought of them being brandished criminals for buying booze discusts me.
I don't want to undermine the whole idea because I don't have any soloution to combat the problem myself but I feel by bringing in this proposal will only make kids more intested in drugs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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One of my main concerns is that young people who have been legally permitted to build up a dependence (of any magnitude) on alcohol, while then under the assumption that that dependence can be maintained, are now being considered legally prohibited and restricted from doing so. This is akin to the raising of tobacco sales from 16 to 18 year olds by Labour, whereby teenagers who had already built up a strong addiction to cigarettes, under the belief that they would be allowed to carry on fulfilling their addiction, were then forced by law to abstain from smoking for months or even over a year.
This is cruel, tantamount to torture (these are two of the most addictive substances known to man - tobacco moreso than heroin) and it goes to show just how ill-thought out these new (and old) proposals are. How could this effect not be considered? Complete incompetence? Well, it is the SNP...
Needless to say, those young people already dependent on alcohol will, if the proposals are accepted as is, be being bullied by the state into criminalising themselves (and retailers should they purchase alcohol from them), simply because they have been allowed to build up an addiction (slight or otherwise) to a state-sanctioned, culturally acceptable substance.
This is indifferent from banning the rest of the population from buying drink for 2-3 years.
The BBC described the trials in Glasgow as 'successful.' That is because only immediate cause and effect is looked at; raise the age, alcohol related crimes decrease. Is it a success if we constantly chip away at all our freedoms? If we encourage the young to move country? Punish the majority for the crimes of a few? Belittle those who we send off to war and who pay taxes and are fathers and mothers? If we jailed everyone for a year for any minor misdeameanour, that would cut crime. No doubt if that was trialed it would be a 'success' too.
Young people do not necessarily have the money to spend a night on taxis, pubs and clubs. Personally, I fall into the 18-21 age bracket, and have been the unsuspecting victim of a serious assault (by a group of older adults, oddly) during a night out in town. Consequently, I don't really like drinking out in town in pubs. I just prefer to drink in the safety of my own home. I know this is irrational, as I was simply unlucky, but it is not uncommon for other young people I know to be wary about drinking in town centres. They tend to leave irresponsible drinking to the home. That would be diverted to town centres under new proposals.
To disincentive young people from drinking at their own or a friend's house, and instead encouraging them to go out and drink seems counter-intuitive to solving the problem.
I can't help feeling that the proposals are justified by a smirking schadenfruede on the part of many, not even nearly all, but many people in the older generations' attitude towards an uninformed view of all young people. It's interesting then that I have found older drinkers to be far more threatening, and aggressive. Of course, they are dismissed by bouncers and police as harmless drunks, whereas young people, even when in no way near as bad a state, are seen as hostile and dangerous, partly because the media has caused people to expect them to be so.
If this ban comes into place, although I am currently working in Scotland, I will hastily be moving country. Maybe I'll stay for just long enough to make sure SNP don't get my vote. This is just the latest in a series of infringes of liberties like this. I find it unpleasant living here now. I love Scotland, but the impression I have of the government's embarrassingly poor analytical faculties, and reliance on obvious, reactive, anger-fuelled policies is enough to leave.
There are too many new laws like this. Of course these are only proposals, but the the raising of the age of legally purchasing tobacco was sudden, from 16 to 18 . I'm not convinced the SNP would bother figuring out that they should not make the same cruel mistake with alcohol. A gradual increase, raising the age by a year every year or two would at least see those who have already built a dependency on alcohol (whether a couple of beers a few days a week; or more; or less), be spared this state bullying.
I cannot empathise with whoever's logic is behind these proposals. Maybe it's the politicians who shouldn't be allowed to drink.
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Government and others continually blame alcohol for a multitude of social problems but alcohol and / or drug abuse are only symptoms of a deeper underlying problem. Why don't they address the problem instead of the symptoms because alcohol and drug use are only the symptoms. If a person has cancer and the only apparent symptom is a swelling then treating the swelling leaves the problem (the cancer) untreated.
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this has just not happened yesterday .this has been going on for generations but steadily getting worse year on year. whatever has been tried in the past have all failed because they were not thought through, because they were simply paid lip service or they were not "policed" correctly or fully. you can choose whatever you like. it is very easy to sit on the side and snipe but courage is reqired if you are to try new idea's . there is no point in simply going it alone you need to have a large part of the population with you if any policy on this subject is going to work. the fact that people who buy booze for kids and people who sell booze to kids are not being prosecuted is a national disgrace. the number of licensed premises in our small country is outrageous no wonder we have the problems we have. we all know it happens we all know the culprits it's time for action.
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I have had one uncle bleed to death in front of his wife, i have seen numbers of my mates with real problems due to drink, So before some confuse this issue with a chance to kick the snp and defend the union on the back its my right to get drunk Campaign.
think again and come up with ideas to deal with this as doing nothing is not a option
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#6, bighullabaloo
You criticise Brian's supposed opaque cultural reference, but the fact that you knew he was referring to a DVD rather than an official tome for the edification of Government Ministers [nothing in the original post about contextualising "Yes Minister"] shows that you DID understand the reference.
It's always a mistake to take the line of "Well, of course, I understood, but other people wouldn't...
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I can't be the only one to think that Wee Eck is smart enough to take this line for starters in order to engage under 21s in the debate, not only about enforcement a la Armadale, but about mitigating the damage to society ?
Or am I naive in thinking his real agenda is to make it 'OK' to have heavier policing, parental reprimands and removal of licenses ?
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Thomas_Porter
I am a SNP activist and I find this proposal to be a bit thick and missing the point entirely.
Are we really going to campaign for the voting age to be reduced to 16 but say 18-21 year olds cannot buy drink? Most of those causing trouble are underage anyway so this ban will just mean they will turn to other ways to get their kicks.
Scotland has always had a drink problem and while I would say we would be better off trying to raise the cost of booze it would not work entirely.
We need to start from the ground up and start working on a more continental attitude to booze and that starts with the parents and early school years education.
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Personally, I think some kind of maturity test is required before you can be served alcohol - whether it be in an establishment like a pub or by an off-licence. I would wager, that the vast majority of those in the 18-21 age category would fail that test. In Scotland at least. A substantially large number of those in the 21+ age category would similarly fail.
I'm not long out of that age-group, so have pretty much a good understanding of how it goes. There simply isn't a sensible approach to alcohol consumption by young people in this country. Yes, there may be one or two who are sensible - I don't drink very much at all (not for religious reasons or anything and unusual for a 24 year old male, you might think) but I can still go out with my friends and have a good time - but the overwhelming majority aren't. They are dependent upon alcohol.
Someone above said the proposal (and it is just a proposal, remember) to raise the off licence age to 21 would be a 'scattergun' approach -penalising the majority for the actions of the minority.
I'm sorry, I don't think it is. If anything it is the reverse. Scotland is a diseased society when it comes to its relationship with alcohol. I'd probably go further and raise the drinking age to 21 - like the USA.
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MissSephy:
Could you qoute the 'proposal' I made?
I have mentioned several different issues and it would be easier to know what proposal you do not like.
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"So before some confuse this issue with a chance to kick the snp and defend the union on the back its my right to get drunk Campaign."
Are you saying people who are
1) allowed to drink in pubs
2) and are currently allowed to buy drink in off licenses
dont have the right to get drunk?
Is this turning into a general temperance campaign? The mind boggles.
And please spare us the Saltire-brandishing. This is nothing to do with unionism versus nationalism. This is about preventing nannying stupidity.
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Twentyferret,
As I understand it, the proposed ban is on you buying drink from an off-licence, not presumably on your consuming it other than on licensed premises.
The answer for you is obvious: get a friend who is twenty-two or older to buy the drink for you.
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MissSephy:
"Are we really going to campaign for the voting age to be reduced to 16 but say 18-21 year olds cannot buy drink?"
To compare voting to drinking is incredibly wrong. Alcohol is abused in so many ways, while voting is something completly different.
"Most of those causing trouble are underage anyway so this ban will just mean they will turn to other ways to get their kicks."
Please present your evidence to this please.
"Scotland has always had a drink problem and while I would say we would be better off trying to raise the cost of booze it would not work entirely."
I could make up to one grand per month. I don't pay bills, I don't own a car. Raising the cost of alcohol will only hurt the poor and not the 'hidden' wealthy children who have the money to spare.
Confuzatron:
Yes!! This is not Unionist vs Nationalists. I have already been accused of supporting the Bill for the sake of of it since I am an SNP supporter.
I explain why I support the Bill and where I would deffinetly draw the line and would of course support alternatives that 18-21 years olds can present as long as they do not mention...
- enforce the current laws...
- make the police check the premises...
Easier said then done folks.
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"To compare voting to drinking is incredibly wrong. Alcohol is abused in so many ways, while voting is something completly different."
Phew. There's just no way round such a cast-iron argument. "Votin's diffren from drinkin innit, stans to reason"
These 16 year olds are trusted to elect the government that sets the rules on drinking. Maybe they'll vote to be allowed to shop in off licenses!
Treating people like adults is a dangerous game indeed. Maybe we should let them vote, but decide who they're allowed to vote for. After all they're only children who can't be trusted with drink - uh I mean they're adults with enough savvy to choose between political parties.
[shakes head in disbelief]
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I can see a brisk cross border trade coming up between Scotland and England. What is there to prevent anyone who is under the legal age in Scotland from simply driving into England and bringing back alcohol. From what I am seeing they are only proposing a ban on selling to under 21s and not a ban on under 21s being in possession of alcohol
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Grenscot:
Yes. We shall see the 'Scottish Mafia' driving trucks full of alcohol for sale in Scotland but only for 18-21 year olds.
If the SNP do not watch their step then they may hand over wealth to the Mafia and see the rise of the Mafia Families that the United States of America witnessed when they out-lawed alcohol.
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Hello bloggers
I trust that you have all read the 84 page consultation document..good....you will then of course realise that this consultation was not created on a whim but with an aim to challenge some of the very real problemns we face as a society. I think this consultation will be the start of something constructive in combatting our fixation with drink, even if some of the policy proposals never reach the statute book.
Well done the SNP for bringing this forward .
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# 71. cousteau669:
"It's always a mistake to take the line of "Well, of course, I understood, but other people wouldn't..."
It might be a mistake if I was taking that line bit I didn't.
In fact, I said the "Yes Minister" connection would not be understood BY PEOPLE WHO READ BRIAN'S BLOGS WHO ARE NOT FAMILIAR WITH THE SHOW.
I wasn't claiming I was capable of understanding the connection whilst other people were too stupid to do so. I have seen "Yes Minister" but there are plenty of people who haven't.
It is always a mistake to accuse people of things without actually reading and making sure you have correctly understood what those people have written first.
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Like I said on the suicide thread, we should withhold funding from arts which glamourise drinking. That's only a small part of the solution, but a necessary one. I doubt that Scotland is *markedly* worse in terms of alcoholism than comparable societies, but the culture we produce probably does depict us as such.
120 years ago Glasgow was noted for its artists and architects, like Charles Rennie Mackintosh, with his bold, modern style. Who can imagine a distinct design school emerging from Glasgow nowadays? Mostly it's overblown 'working class' stuff, like Peter Howson's grotesque depictions of Glaswegian hard men. Who needs optimistic, hopeful art, eh?
It's in art that we can find the solution, though. Glasgow has a good music scene, but it's heavily focused on the sort of music you drink alcohol with. Music festivals and gigs seem to be as much about boozing as listening to the music. We need more of the other kinds of music, like classical music, jazz, opera, the stuff that doesn't involve imbibing beer.
More sport would be good, with the exception *that* sport which causes people to riot like degenerate Byzantines. So more of the other sports, the ones which don't demand vast alcohol consumption. The public media ought to take a lead in this, reducing their vast, overblown football coverage to something a bit saner.
So basically, I'm advocating a cultural change. Less footy 'n' gigs, more rugby and opera. It's a better, deeper change than some thuggish legislation.
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This is good stuff from the SNP.
What are the alternitives?
Education? Utterly pointless. It hasnt worked with drugs (infact I remember getting taught about drugs in School and everyone rushed out and started experiementing!!)
People get drunk because its good fun and they like it. Fine in a pub but out on the street it just means gangs get more confindence to fight etc.
As for the people complaining about the prices going up - give me a break. Drink is ridiculously cheap and if your working then it wont effect you.
If however your using your giro to buy it then maybe you will be upset.
Scotland has a problem. I dont mind people being drunk and wasting their lives away if thats what they want. I do mind it effecting everyone else in the process.
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I think this is a great start. The fine details of policy can be debated at consultation but at least, finally, we are looking at some sort of solution to the alcohol problem in Scotland.
Alcohol-related diseases are increasing every year and the average age of onset is decreasing. Alcohol is also at the root of much of the violence in our society.
This costs us all.
We need to do something as a society and we may be uncomfortable with some of the solutions but this is a refreshing start.
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Trimmtrab:
I would suggest that we severly limit the amount of shops who are allowed to sell alcohol.
I would also suggest that raising the costs of alcohol is pointless. The type who does binge drink are usually working full-time and live with their parents and do not pay bills and paying a bit extra won't harm them.
I would also suggest that the NHS is able to refuse free treatment for alcohol problems. If a person does end up with an extra bill after a Saturday night then they would of course think twice next time.
We must also take into account that this is method which the SNP have adopted that is also directed at saving money for other projects.
If asking the drunks to pay for their hospital treatment personally then that would save aload of cash.
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Why do young people in Scotland drink more and start earlier?
How about years of being told that without the Union we Scot's are uncivilised?
How about years of being told Scotland is a dependent colony of England?
How about years of social engineering that has left a large chunk of young people in Scotland with a view of life that there is no point, I am stuck here in this dump with no where better to go?
Given the limited horizon's on offer is it any surprise that young people in the poorest communities turn to drink, in excess, at an early age.
Prohibition is not and never has been the answer as it has never worked. If it did we would not have a drugs problem, kids of eleven would not still be sniffing glue and other substances and people would not be being stabbed by knifes.
As an SNP supporter I can only say this is a PR stunt, stupidly playing to vested interests and will do nothing to resolve the underlying problem which can only be resolved by creating real opportunity for these disenfranchised young people.
There is a world of a difference between an 18 year old student's occasional binge and the steady, heavy drinking from a young age which produces the early deaths and other social problems related to the 'poorest' in our society.
The SNP's quasi Presbyterian and religious tendency has to be ignored as they are part of the problem, not the solution. The SNP can win this battle by sticking to creating a successful Scotland with increased opportunities for all rather than repeating legislation that has never worked in what ever form it has been tried.
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I'm glad the SNP mean business. Binge drinking has gone on long enough and new measures need to be tried.
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Totally Redick! I love binge drinking I'm now 29 and have been doing so since my early teens when I go out I go out to get drunk and I enjoy it. I have a well paid job house cars etc.. I'm not causing anyone any harm apart from myself.
The problem is not drink but people with a violent disposition who only seem to get worse with a drink. People who can't handle their drink and are a public nuisance whilst drunk should be punished for the crimes they have committed. Repeat offenders should be fitted with an antabuse implant which causes headaches and vomiting if they drink.
At the moment police tend to put these people in the cells for the night and let them go with a slap on the wrist in the morning. But had they been sober and acting in this manner a prosecution would surely follow.
I have been attacked by a drunken yob in a city centre completely unprovoked and to their credit the police were on the scene in seconds, but they were not interested in arresting anyone due to hassle it would of caused them to do so.
I hope for everyone's sake this does not become law it will only further glamorise alcohol and push younger people into drugs.
TP
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Oh and remember when Aberdeen city licensing board tried to impose minimum prices on drink, they got taken to court by Mitchells and Butlers and lost.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/3985843.stm
TP
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I'm glad that the Government have acknowledged this issue and are taking steps to tackle it. However, I wonder how effective increasing the age limit would be. Why not ensure that everyone who may be of a questionable age is ID'd? Bascially enforcing our current laws.
I came to Japan at the age of 23 and found a huge difference in alcohol between those Commonwealth and European friends who had started drinking at 18 and my American friends, many of whom had just past the legal drinking age in their own country. There was quite a bit of difference in the way we treated alcohol. Many of the Americans were had a "out to get wasted", binge drinking attitude whereas the others were more in control and had a bit more respect for alcohol. Not that I'm saying we were any better, just that we did it a bit earlier. Ultimately the same situation occurs albeit at a later stage.
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It will never see the light of day...
Stella would be £1.82 / 500ml Can
Glens Vodka = £14.00 / bottle
Smirnoff = £14.00 / bottle
do you honestly think that the alcohol industry would not fight this based on competition rules. If a minimum of 35p per unit was introduced, I could not see Glens not fighting as they are normally the cheaper option than Smirnoff. Although, I could also see a nice little earner by taking a van over the border to Carlisle.
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Pardon the pun - but we're drinking at the Last Chance Saloon here.
Everything else we've tried has failed, and the problem continues to escalate. We've taken the wishy-washy liberal path of "understanding" people who cause misery to others and the situation has continued to get worse.
Now it's time for some radical thinking on the part of our politicians. The SNP plans, although I don't necessarily agree with them 100%, are a bold step and one that we should back to see how it all pans out.
Ultimately, if this fails, there really is only one alternative - severe punishments for offenders that will make them think twice about wanting to do the same thing again.
Personally, I'd go with the latter immediately. Having spent time in Singapore where law-abiding citizens can walk the streets in safety at all times of the day, I've seen the effect that clamping down on offenders can have. Work it out for yourself - Tough sentencing = low crime. Slap on the wrist sentencing = high crime. It doesn't take a genius to work that one out.
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U946...
Big points to you for good use of "numtitude". Well done Sir!
#80
Yes! Gretna Green will become the new Juarez, it was really only a matter of time. Straight laced Scots crossing for a lost weekend of Bitter and Bodingtons, only to wake up with a stabbing pain where their kidneys once were.
Dont forget to tip your waitresses folks. Seriously though... perhaps we as a nation need a period of nannying. Grown men in this country act with more immaturity in this country than any other I have ever visited. Please pause and contemplate this for a sec.
As a young graduate, I actually regret all the evenings spent squiffy with mates in halls, and that I didnt do something more constructive earlier. Going down the pub is still an option, and in my opinion it is a lot more civilised. Other groups of drinkers help to assuage and moderate.
Regretfully, I am broadly for this.
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@ twentyferret,
you will soon learn young lad.
The liberals were just as bad "we will abolish student fees" ... "we will go into coalition government which isn't going to get rid of fees"
Power corrupts anyone - even the SNP
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Just goes to show the difficulties of the Scottish Government being responsible for spending but not raising taxation revenue.
Perhaps slightly higher alcohol duty would be more palatable if it could be accompanied by a drop in fuel duty north of the border. Same proceeds to the Treasury, but another example of Scotland's priorities being determined in Scotland by politicians ultimately asccountable to the people of Scotland.
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It's been a brave move by the SNP to address this issue and I support them in doing so.
Working within the justice system I have witnessed on too many occasions the damage that is done when alcohol and immaturity mix.
Sadly maturity isn't a scientific matter where all individuals mature at the same rate and accept adult responsibility at age 18, or 21 for that matter.
I find the proposal for 18 to 21 year olds to be served in pubs ad clubs a responsible way to promote responsible drinking.
In order for us to move towards a more liberal society we need to take a slightly right wing stance on this issue. To take a Utilitarian view point, we have to decide what is best for the greater good of society.
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Broadly, I can see merit in arguments for and against this move. But, whilst not comparable in close detail, I think the smoking ban provides much to learn from.
When the smoking ban was first proposed it was doomed to fire and brimstone by many people. But now I genuinely believe smoking is much more unacceptable and considered much more anti social than it was 10 years ago. You have to physically remove yourself from a social situation and building to smoke now and I think it really has had a positive effect on Scotland.
Might this move take Scottish society in a similar direction? I think it has the potential to, ie that the broad effect will be to reduce such an overt youth drinking culture.
People who really want to drink underage, will. People who really want to smoke, will. But if you can stop 30-40% of people who might otherwise fall into that habit just because its there or others are doing it then I think its worth a try.
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I am sick of the term "binge drinking!"
Not so long ago it was known as the weekend!!
Teenagers drinking alcohol is not new and is no worse today than before, it is just the hysterical media blowing this issue out of all proportions!
Enough with demonising tenagers!!!
Previous governments have left this issue alone for a reason!
It is not a governments job to get me to cut down on fags, booze or burgers!
Our economy is going down the pan and thier time would be better spent on this instead of meddling in individuals private affairs!
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Apparently Westminster is considering similar proposals.
For those that say "use the existing laws "
just where are the police and courts supposed to put the miscreants?
There ain't no room in them thar jails for drunks and disorderlies!
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Thomas_Porter
I was not referring to any proposal you made because obviously you didn't make one, the SNP did regarding binge drinking. Please leave your paranoia at home please.
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'I can quite happily drive a car, smoke a cigarette, pay taxes or get married, but they're going to prevent me purchasing a bottle of pinot grigio from Morrisons. Are they off their heads???'
That is already the case for all 17 year olds and you could buy from the supermarket instead of the off sales. Honestly the only hysterical ones are the people up in arms about the proposal.
I'm not in favour of a nanny state but when you have children as young as 9 in hospital being treated for alcohol related problems, it is well past time for action to be taken. When i used to work weekends i would see kids as young as 12 drunk out of their heads hanging around the street.
Obvioulsy their parents aren't giving a toss what they are doing and something has to be done. If that means people have to pay a little more because of poor parenting or those that just don't know when to stop then i think it is as small price to pay.
It is the cheap beers, ciders and alcopops that need to be targeted, you don't see many neds hanging around drinking glan morangie!! I do however think something should be done about buckfast, what i don't know.
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MissSephy:
I did make proposals.
Ignore then if you want but don't criticise without explaining why.
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To tackle Scotland's problem with alcohol the government needs to enact a culture-change. Banning off-sales for under-21s will not change the culture. It will make under-21s sneaky-drinkers, and criminalise young people.
Instead any bans will have to tackle bigger demons... the alcohol makers, sellers and promotors.
Alcohol sales should be restricted (as in Canada and Australia) to specialist licensed outlets. Alcohol should be removed from supermarkets, corner-shops etc. The remaining outlets can then be more tightly monitored. Price controls are a good idea if dealt with sensibly and reviewed regularly.
The police must be resourced properly to tackle public drunkeness, and told to prioritise alcohol-related incidents. All alcohol-related crime should include an AA-style education programme.
Schools should educate young people on the dangers of drinking to excess. Whilst admitting that drinking alcohol can be a great thing. Sixth-years, subject to parental consent, should go on a distillery tour and have a wine-tasting evening. Let's teach them how to enjoy good booze properly.
Oh... and can we ban stag and hen parties from Edinburgh while we're about it?
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This is a crazy idea! The nanny State mentality again, how dissappointing from the SNP.
Old enough to get married and have children.
Old enough to cast a vote.
Old enough to join the army and risk your life in Afghanistan or Iraq.
Not old enough to buy a beer!
Prohibition simply doesn't work. There are only too many "outlaws" who would be only too happy to supply the underage market with alcohol..oh and would you like a gram of Smack or Coke to go with that?
Get real!
If you really, really want to make a difference to this problem then there are three things required.
1. End social deprivation and hopelessness. Provide kids with alternatives to hanging out in parks and streets with nothing to do but drink.
2. Educate both kids and parents. Parents with lawless kids have to take responsibility, and in many cases need assistance to achieve this. Those that don't or won't take responsibility should be prosecuted for negligence, and the kids taken into care.
3. Bring back the ban on advertising alcohol, and put a stop to strong, cheap drinks aimed at the youth market.
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Thebookseller:
I am totally on side with you.
By reducing the number of shops where alcohol can be sold it may prove effective.
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How about everyone who has posted on this blog does not go drinking this Friday but instead takes the money they would have spent, walks to the shops and buys groceries for an elderly neighbour or relative.
They would be no worse off, they would be fitter for having a good walk, and would have a warm fuzzy feeling inside instead of a hangover.
On Saturday night they could tell their mates in the pub/park/street corner how much they enjoyed it.
No legislation needed, just a change of attitude.
Just thinking outside the box.
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They should just ban monks from making wine. Or at least, ban them from importing it into Scotland.
10% of worldwide sales in Lanarkshire alone? I ask you.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buckfast_Tonic_Wine
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Well, this is an exciting debate. Find myself in the exciting place of being drawn by both sides of the argument - I am struck by the effect that the raising of the age-level had in the pilot, and the corresponding drop in crime; but also taken by the argument that we should not raise the age level.
First things first; 's math a rinn the SNP (its good that the SNP have done). They have done (surprisingly, perhaps, if you are no lover of our Scottish Government) exactly what we want in a democracy. They had taken a difficult issue, put forward their own proposals and asked people for their views.
Can I also point out that this blog seems to have been taken over by the age limit raising? There are, however, a wealth of other proposals, such as raising the price of alcohol generally which I would be in favour of. I am not entirely up on my EU Competition Law, but I am fairly sure that there are the acceptable reasons, (national emergency, public health and safety) which could be invoked by the government to counter them. So long as they are not giving their own companies an advantage, I think they would get away with it. I am ready to stand corrected though.
There are a lot of good ideas being proposed here, although if I could make one criticism. Those who say that there would be a brain drain on Scotland as our young people fled for the safety of an England where they can buy alcohol - I think that is a tad disingenuous. It is not somewhat worrying to think that some many people would base their place of residence purely on these three years and their right to buy alcohol? And is it not ironic that people crying the prophetic words 'nanny state' are listing the other measures as to why Scotland is so liberal (16 for voting (possibly) and sex, etc)? To give some evidence, can we look at America; it has its problems, but a brain drain is not amongst them.
Although on balance I would say I am against raising the age limit but in favour of the other proposals:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/17_06_08_alcoholproposals.pdf
But I applaud the SNP for starting the debate, and putting forward ideas which are open to change and get people engaged in politics again.
E
P.S. Brian, to my knowledge, the words Humphrey used were courageous/novel/original. Loved the Yes Minister reference though - if people are unfamilar with it, I urge you to get a copy of the full series. British satire at its best. Perhaps you could even spend that £30 quid on a night out on a copy instead
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This is not "prohibition". 18 to 21 year olds will be able to drink in pubs and clubs... In an adult environment.
This isn't about targeting youth, if anything it's about helping them. Considering that each year hundreds of young men and women have their lives ruined as a result of drink fueled violence, the least we can do is look at as many practical solutions as possible.
Education is a great idea, but it's worthless without legal reform. The "just say no" stance is not going to work. Decades of social behaviour will not change because of a few lectures.
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Those who say that there would be a brain drain on Scotland as our young people fled for the safety of an England where they can buy alcohol - I think that is a tad disingenuous. It is not somewhat worrying to think that some many people would base their place of residence purely on these three years and their right to buy alcohol?
I think you'll find it'll be a key factor in the decision making process of many 18-year old wannabe graduates. You forget when your 18 that three years seems like a lifetime. It did to me anyway.
And once having decided to move South they're more likely to stay there. Just as many students already tend to stay close to where they graduated initially at least. Plus their English boyfriend/girlfriend may encourage them to stay after graduation.
And why not? There's many more jobs in England than there are in Scotland. The weather's better. There's a lot more going on. There are direct flights to many more places if you fancy a holiday. Your girlfriend/boyfriend lives there. All your new graduate friends live there. You know the local area. It's the first time you've been away from home and you like it. Why go back?
What are you going to do? Get a degree in (say) Birmingham and then immediately move back in with your mum in Glasgow? Naaah. You're going to job-search from Birmingham and most likely stay down south. Why would you move back and hang out with your waster mates who didn't go to Uni?
One other thing. Watch for massive liquor establishments on the scale of the giant sheds at Calais to be set up all along the border. Edinburgh's only a quick hour down to Berwick-on-Tweed for beaucoup alcohol and no questions asked. All you'll be doing is making a few English farmers rich.
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U9461192:
"Why would you move back and hang out with your waster mates who didn't go to Uni?"
You do not need a Uni education to make something of yourself.
Plus, England Uni would cost the individual far more then what would if someone Scottish applied for Uni in Scotland. A push factor?
"Get a degree in (say) Birmingham and then immediately move back in with your mum in Glasgow? Naaah"
Why not? You have history in Scotland may want to continue with what you left. Your girl/boyfriend may of stayed in Scotland. You may also have a job waiting for you in the area from a personal friend etc etc
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Educate both kids and parents. Parents with lawless kids have to take responsibility, and in many cases need assistance to achieve this. Those that don't or won't take responsibility should be prosecuted for negligence, and the kids taken into care.
This is the answer. The only time we hear of parents being held responsible for their children is if they don't make the kids go to school. Every so often some (mainly English I think) council bangs up a parent for a few weeks pour encourager les autres.
Right idea. Wrong 'crime'. If I'm honest the last place I'd want any of these numpties is rampaging around a classroom disrupting my kids. How is anybody supposed to learn in that environment. Nope.
Where I'd really be banging the parents up is when their kid was arrested for TWOKing or breaking and entering or GBH or shoplifting or any of the other crimes for which the malignant chavtocracy presently get off Scot-free (BTW where's that expression come from).
The little wasters should be free to run around the countryside all they want when they should be at school. After all they're harming nobody but themselves at that point. But as soon as they attempt to rob some old granny or damage private property then their parents should be in the dock for their children's crimes.
We have the concept of corporate responsibility where a board can be held responsible for the negligence of its employees. Let's put some real meaning into 'parental responsibility'.
Let's bang up a few parents for their kids crimes. That'll soon focus everybody else's attention a bit. You'll soon see a bit of parental control and responsibility being exercised then.
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With these proposals alcohol users will now begin to feel what is was like to be a smoker when the campaign against that particular vice was vigorously launched.
And don't think for a second that politicians won't want even more restrictions on where alcohol is consumed either.
I'm old enough to remember that even the idea of banning smoking in pubs would have been thought hilarious....and look where we are now.
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Here's an Idea if we are going to up the price and tax to death all things that are bad for us, then why don't we reduce the price and remove taxes from all things that are good for us, such as sporting goods, leisure activities etc. Therefore encouraging people to take up healthy alternatives to drinking.
Now that would be a brave move by the government.
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Plus, England Uni would cost the individual far more then what would if someone Scottish applied for Uni in Scotland. A push factor?
How do you figure that?
If anything I'd expect English Uni's to be cheaper.
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Again, great start from the government on this one. Something needs to be done and this is a bold start for a serious debate.
The spokesperson for the Scottish Retail Consortium stated that we're 'in danger of demonising drink' - IS SHE SERIOUS????
Also for those that propose more 'education' what do you suggest that we teach? Drinking gets you drunk? Alchohol is bad for you? This doesn't quite cut it.
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Brian
I applaud Nicola Sturgeon. These are bold measures. Too many politicians are content to simply wear the robes of office and feel important. She is actually trying to tackle a serious social problem. But I'm not sure how effective these measures are going to be.
The problem is twofold. There is the question of public disorder which is getting out of hand. That is because the deterrents aren't strong enough. Our politicians are afraid of punishing offenders. They'd rather punish everybody in a small way than the violent drunks in a big way.
Then there is the question of public health. Should we try and discourage the high levels of alcohol consumption? Yes, of course. Price is the best way to do this. Alcohol in my view is something that a healthy society should use sparingly, on special occasions.
And who said the poor should be entitled to as much alcohol as the rich?
Students should welcome the measures. They and society could benefit from them. Stay sober and study instead of wasting public money.
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The claims that this will lead to mass-emmigration to England are just plain silly.
There are many reasons that individuals take on board when deciding where they will study, the dillemma of going to an English off-licence or a Scottish pub for your booze is not likely to be one of them.
In any case, if the proposals are a failure they will probably be removed. If they are a success then Westminster will exend the proposals to England and Wales.
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With these proposals alcohol users will now begin to feel what is was like to be a smoker when the campaign against that particular vice was vigorously launched.
And don't think for a second that politicians won't want even more restrictions on where alcohol is consumed either.
I'm old enough to remember that even the idea of banning smoking in pubs would have been thought hilarious....and look where we are now.
Quite so. I never smoked but I supported smokers because I knew who they'd be coming for next.
And when they've marginalised the drinkers they'll be on to the fatties. Look at them fat people, over-consuming our vital resources. Waddling about the place putting a strain on the NHS. Let's marginalise them.
The really brave thing for the SNP to do would be to tear up some legislation. Starting with the smoking ban. Show us how liberal they are not authoritarian and prescriptive.
It's the rush of power to their inflated egos. They want to show you who's in charge.
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The claims that this will lead to mass-emmigration to England are just plain silly.
Nobody said anything about mass immigration. I do however guarantee that you'll be losing a lot of Scottish students who are considering where to study. And you'll be replacing them with English students who were too thick to get anywhere better.
There are many reasons that individuals take on board when deciding where they will study,
If they're anything like me (and I'm not that unusual) they'll pick a course they want to study then apply to the places they're likely to get enough 'points' to qualify for. Then, if, they get enough 'points' and they've got several options they'll pick one based on any number of criteria. But if you think that high amongst them will not be 'can I score a drink for a party without having to ask a 21 year-old to buy it for me' then I think you're misinformed.
the dillemma of going to an English off-licence or a Scottish pub for your booze is not likely to be one of them.
You reckon?
If they are a success then Westminster will exend the proposals to England and Wales.
Only a Labour government. They love telling people how to run their lives. But that's looking increasingly unlikely. For a generation at least.
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I think it is also interesting that one of the main arguments being used against the age limit proposal is the playing of the student card.
I would like to ask why this emphasis is used. Is there an assumption here that alcohol problems are related to intelligence, or that students are immune to alcohol problems?
Everyone involved in alcohol treatment services know that intelligence or academic achievement are not protective factors from developing problems with booze. It's more to do with how each individual (regardless of individual attributes) learns how to use alcohol.
They also know that, until recently, drinking at home was an indicator of alcohol problems, particularly drinking alone. Now, with cheaper and cheaper alcohol being available, this practice is becoming the norm. As a result, an important barrier in the individual's self regulation of alcohol has been completely removed.
Recent research has begun to look at a very neglected area of study, that of how alcohol undermines academic performance at university.
http://www.edgehill.ac.uk/news/2008/04/alcohol-effect-on-student-performance
I personally know of plenty of people who either dropped out of their courses at university or college, or who's academic performance was severly undermined by booze. I'm sure there are plenty other posters who can say the same.
Imagine how the lives of these people would have been transformed if they had been able to complete their studies before having full access to booze.
There is a world of difference between those who may later develop alcohol problems, but who have safely secured their education, to those who leave with nothing to show for their efforts, except the knowledge of how to console themselves with a bottle or a can.
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I applaud Nicola Sturgeon. These are bold measures.
So she's concerned about alcohol abuse is she? Fine. How about closing down the whisky industry and the brewing industry. To show your heart is in the right place.
Thought not. Rank hypocrisy.
The guys in their forties, fifties and sixties (and women) suffering from alcohol or second hand alcohol are not getting hammered on Buckfast and alcopops. They're getting wrecked on McEwans export and supermarket whisky.
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U9461192:
"If anything I'd expect English Uni's to be cheaper."
Because Uni is free to Scottish students.
Unless you take out a loan or something then it is not free that you don't have to take one out.
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OK, big flaw in this proposal, set out in nice, easy language.
I am in my 40s.
I could, if I wished, buy booze from the local 'offie', and hand it over to the local under-age rapscallions.
So how would this proposal stop me? Or anyone over the age of 21 from doing the same thing?
I look forward to a life of wearing state-issued beige pyjamas and eating state-approved puree'd vegetable gloop - surely the next stage in the drive to turn this country into a proper Nanny State??
As for university, I went to York. Loved it. Wouldn't have studied anywhere else.
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I would agree to an extent that working out where you can and cannot drink alcohol is a factor in deciding where you would go to university - but I doubt it would tip the balance for any amount of university students to make them move region. And it would be more expensive for two reasons; (i) moving away from home almost always is, and the commute from Scotland to England (depending upon precise location of course) is impractical; (ii) student fees have been abolished in Scotland. Although to be honest, if someone was prepared to move region purely to have access to alcohol, would that not be the very person that might be considered too reliant/immature to be allowed to puchase it at 18?
I would be careful about linking the words 'waster' and 'that didn't got to uni'.
As for the proposal of criminalising the parents, legal age in Scotland is 16; and the basic principle of law that you are only liable for your own actions would have to be upheld (there are a few exceptions, but they are given an extremely narrow interpretation and rightly, in my opinion). And what of the situation where an affluent middle class family, say two doctors as the parents, have a fifteen year old child who is caught doing drugs, or shoplifting for a dare while drunk? Do you then deprive our society of a doctor who was so overworked that he could not look after his child every second of every day? I agree that parents should take more responsibilty for their children; I disagree in stating that they can be incarcerated for another's crimes, even their own children.
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Seeing as we are cherry-picking other's posts...
"Nobody said anything about mass immigration. I do however guarantee that you'll be losing a lot of Scottish students who are considering where to study. And you'll be replacing them with English students who were too thick to get anywhere better."
You cannot guarantee this.
In the same post, writing 'you reckon?' to someone else's proposal engenders nothing more than a 'yes I do' in response. If the poster did not 'reckon' it, he would not have written it.
"So she's concerned about alcohol abuse is she? Fine. How about closing down the whisky industry and the brewing industry. To show your heart is in the right place.
Thought not. Rank hypocrisy."
I think you draw a similarity here which is not present. Alcohol abuse does not equal the whisky and brewing industry. Rather like suggesting to stop football hooliganism, we should ban football. Alcohol can and is enjoyed in moderate quantities. Do not accuse others of hypocrisy by putting words in their mouths.
Glasgow Gooner: It is a fair point you are making, and you are quite right. There is no way in which to stop that. I suspect the SNP hope that by raising the age of those who can buy alcohol, those people who buy might be morel likey to reject passing it along to those under-age due to the great weight of their experience and age. Although I disagree that either the smoking ban or this proposal are necessarily indicative of a nanny state. Restricted liberties enforced to prevent people restricting the liberties of others are quite acceptable - indeed, they are the basis of society.
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Talorthane:
The student card is not being played with regard to any assumption about intelligence, etc.
What people are saying is that, given I can go down the local pub and get as much drink as I want, why can't I buy a few cans to go to my mates party? There's no logic to it.
Your argument about people dropping out of college also doesn't stack up for the same underlying reason. If people want to spend their time down the pub rather than studying, there's nothing in the proposals to stop them doing that.
People who are going to have problems like that are still going to have them because they still have "full access to booze" just by walking into the nearest pub.
We should be fully enforcing the perfectly adequate current laws. There's no point introducing more laws that we're not going to enforce. Only the people who aren't a problem will obey them anyway.
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Raising the age is an interesting concept but I'm not sure it will solve the problem. But then again if there was an easy solution someone would have come up with it already!
I agree with stopping some of the ridiculous booze offers that are clearly aimed at the younger market. When our local off licence got new owners they did a special on buckfast and advertised it heavily. Funnily enough with a week there was trouble in the area surrounding from groups of very drunk teenagers. I am at a loss as to how you turn round the binge drinking, the decline in parental resposibility and the lack of respect from youths (I sound so old I've turned into my mother!!) but I'm not sure this is the answer.
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122. At 1:47pm on 18 Jun 2008, U9461192 wrote:
"Nobody said anything about mass immigration. "
I said "emmigration", and I used the word loosely, as I am aware that Scotland and England are not yet seperate sovereign countries.
However, as this statement was in response to me, then I presume you meant emmigration.
In which cae, it was you who made these claims in post 112.
"I think you'll find it'll be a key factor in the decision making process of many 18-year old wannabe graduates."
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Thomas_Porter
Once again you think it was your proposals I was writing about it was the SNP's (my party's) proposals I was referring to. I feel that yours are too knee jerk to ever work and your attitude leaves a lot to be desired. Most of those causing hassle on streets are under 18 so why demonise those who drink legally and don't cause problems? And lets not forget that Scotland has always had a problem with alcohol the problem has always been there and I am sure many of those here drank before they were of age. It doesn't make it right but it still happened and will do in the future. The only weapon we have is education starting from an earlier age and make major changes in order to adopt a more continental attitude to alcohol
With more effective policing and harsher fines to both off-licenses that knowingly sell drink to those under-age and those older who buy drink on the behalf of minors.
I do not believe you have to punish the majority to stamp out the problematic minority all that does is breed anger and resentment and as you can see its already doing a good job of that on these boards .
I find it aggravating that the SNP think I am responsible enough at 20 years old to be a branch secretary and a constituency association organiser but I am not responsible enough to watch my alcohol intake. For the record I am near enough tee-total thanks to my parents educating me that drink was not a liquid to abuse but I do like a drink once in a blue moon.
As for my proposals don't worry I will be taking them to conference this October.
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129 Bangingonabout
"The student card is not being played with regard to any assumption about intelligence, etc."
Well it has been played by several posters here.
Many posters here are giving examples of students watching the football on the TV, or buying a bottle of wine to accompany a meal.
Why are students being used as the means to argue this point rather than "19 year olds watching the TV" or "unemployed 19 year olds going for a meal" or "students playing drinking games until they're sick or pass out".
The point is that these are not good arguments, and the student card is being used to suggest that all students are responsible with alcohol. My argument is that this is not the case.
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MissSephy:
I doubled checked, and yes I mistakenly got your first comment wrong, forgive me.
I am a careless teenager who does not stop to think about what I am doing/saying.
"Most of those causing hassle on streets are under 18 so why demonise those who drink legally and don't cause problems?"
Because I know that those children who have slightly older friends are able to get them to buy the alcohol.
I don't see a 20/21 year old having much 16 year old friends and the flow of alcohol would stop for the minors or at least decline.
"The only weapon we have is education starting from an earlier age and make major changes in order to adopt a more continental attitude to alcohol."
Education should only be a solution if for example the sex and drugs early learning methods have worked.
(doubtful since STD's have rose and teenage pregnauncy is still a major concern, drugs? not to sure)
"With more effective policing and harsher fines to both off-licenses that knowingly sell drink to those under-age and those older who buy drink on the behalf of minors."
Quite alot of shops that would need policing. Then after 20 minutes they would leave to police another shop?
The Police actually have the power to close and take away shops/licenses. Why they don't, I have no idea personally.
I'd rather see less shops selling alcohol then spending money on extra police for shops.
I see that not many posts have commented on the cost of alcohol abuse for between 15-21 year olds on the NHS and other services.
Perhaps, if someone was to research this and then you may understand why this group in particular has been picked on.
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Bangingonabout
"Your argument about people dropping out of college also doesn't stack up for the same underlying reason. If people want to spend their time down the pub rather than studying, there's nothing in the proposals to stop them doing that."
My argument wasn't based on pubs as, like you have pointed out, this is not affected by the proposals.
"People who are going to have problems like that are still going to have them because they still have "full access to booze" just by walking into the nearest pub."
The reason I mentioned "full access to alcohol" is precisely that the pub only gives limited access, according to their opening and closing times.
On the other hand, being able to buy alcohol allows "full access" at home, any time of the day or night. The boundaries between normal drinking times and non-drinking times are removed.
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Talorthane,
That's because many of the posters "playing the student card" are actually students from what I can see. So they are just posting from their own perspective.
Since these posters were near the top then it has just carried on through the thread.
Besides, there's been much talk about solders, etc. as well. So it's not just students.
And I don't think it is the case that people are suggesting that all students are responsible with alcohol. Just that students that are responsible shouldn't be penalised for those who aren't.
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What I find a little disturbing here is that there are some (not most, thankfully!) that seem to think that because there is a problem, doing something ? *anything* ? putatively aimed at that problem, would be justified.
No matter what the infringement of the liberties of the law-abiding majority, its seems its fine so long as they are seen to be doing 'something' towards a problem. Regardless how ineffective, damaging or counterproductive that 'something' might be.
It'd be interesting to see how people would react if it was 40+ year-olds being banned from buying alcohol. Of course that would never get off the ground ? the older generations (rightly) enjoy their drink, and that includes most politicians. And they protect their own.
But its seems young adults are now the acceptable group for collective punishment. (Even though the problem is supposedly with under 18s ? children ? anyway). We don't have a voice in parliament, so our liberties are more easily trampled on.
I think thats a sad state of affairs. Have a bit of respect for us young adults. We're not children anymore. Once you're 18, you're an adult. Let adults make their own decisions, even their own mistakes - and take responsibility for them themselves. Its the only way we'll grow up ? and hopefully grow up a little less dysfunctional than you lot in previous generations! ; )
If there are problems with some people in society, deal with those people. But don't punish whole groups just becuase it's the easy option. You'll only end up doing more harm than good.
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Talorthane.
I reckon I could get access to alchohol pretty much any time I wanted (I live in Aberdeen) without going near an off-licence or shop just by wandering between pubs, clubs, etc.
Besides, I could drink enough in pubs to see me through the times when places were shut (I'd be asleep or unconcious).
If someone is old enough to legally drink they can and will be able to get access to it if they want. This new law will not make it any more difficult.
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If I could make a quick point about the curtailing of liberties - I see this as fine so long as it is reasoned by the protection of the liberties of others. An obvious example being the law of theft - my right to peaceful enjoyment of my property curtails your right to take whatever you please.
Applying that to the smoking ban, curtailing smoker's rights to smoke is in fact allowing non-smokers to enjoy the use of an enclosed environment. Applying this to the alcohol age limit, it is an attempt to curtail the right of 18-21 year olds to purchase alcohol in order to bring down crime and to stop them imposing upon the rights of others. As far as I can see.
I make no comment on whether this is right or wrong, or a good or bad idea - but that is how I interpret the plank regarding the retriction on liberty in these proposals.
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Bangingonaboutit
"If someone is old enough to legally drink they can and will be able to get access to it if they want. This new law will not make it any more difficult."
I think this show where there may be some agreement.
Alot of people are talking as if this is the end of the world, as if buying alcohol is so important that it would determine where they would study and live
Or that their support for an independent Scotland is of less importance than their perceived right to buy alcohol.
However, I think people are much more resourceful than that, and especially groups of people like students.
What happened with the smoking ban?
One thing was that the smart pub owners started planning beer gardens.
What woul;d happen with these proposals?
I reckon that student unions will become much more important, with many more functions being operated under their supervision.
Pubs will adapt to attract this future key group of customers.
Habits will change, people will adapt and organisations will take advantage of the opportunities.
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Eoin_Og:
In the case of smoking, if a non-smoker and smoker sat in the same room peacefully doing their own thing, then, according to research, the smoker is still endangering the non-smokers health and thus their "rights". So there is a case in that situation to change the law to restrict smoking.
In the case of drinking, if a non-drinker and a drinker sat in the same room peacefully doing their own thing. Then no-one is infringing anyone elses rights.
It's only if the drinker starts to disturb the peace or becomes violent and abusive that the non-drinkers rights are infringed. There are already laws protecting the non-drinker in that case. There is no need to introduce any new laws.
I don't think you can draw parallels between drinking and smoking with regard to this.
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Talorthane:
You've missed my point. I was responding specifically to your point about people wasting their college time with drink and how restricting off-licence sales could help this.
I'm saying anyone in that situation who wants to drink could do so without problem. So your argument doesn't stack up.
My main point is why put these unecessary restrictions on people who don't have a drink problem when it won't solve the problems of those people that do.
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If anything I'd expect English Uni's to be cheaper."
Because Uni is free to Scottish students.
You reckon? Most students move away from home to take a degree. It's part of the natural process of growing up. You want to stand on your own two feet and so you move out of your parents house.
Now how much does your Scottish degree cost compared to your English one?
Scotland: Four years food, accomodation and ents - say 8,000 a year living pretty frugally = 32K.
England three years accommodation, food etc = 24K. Plus 3 years fees (0-3000GBP a year) say 2K = 30K. Worst case scenario you're at 33K but you'll start earning an extra year ahead of your Scottish counterpart.
No way are you going to be better off studying in Scotland after your four year course.
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Bangingonabout (great name): Quite right, the smoker example is a much easier case to make as the harm is easier to show. And I agree that curtailing the rights in this case is a much more tenuous case; one can point to the harm being done by the smoker, but one can only point to the potential of harm to be done by the drinker.
I suspect the case might also fall on the notion that 21 is an arbitary line to draw. Why are 20 year olds banned, but 21 year olds allowed?
As I said at the bottom of that post, I make no comment on whether it is a good argument or not, I was just trying to interpret (purely subjective) if there was a case for rights to be restricted being made by those pro the raising of the limit. But as you point out, the liberties curtailed to save other liberties is a much harder argument to make to support any such raising of the age limit.
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"Nobody said anything about mass immigration. "
I said "emmigration", and I used the word loosely, as I am aware that Scotland and England are not yet seperate sovereign countries.
Ahhh. I see what happened. I saw 'emmigration' (sic) and I took it as a misspelling of 'immigration' which I let pass and then simply reflected your word back. No point getting pedantic I thought. But I see it's actually a misspelling of emigration.
However, as this statement was in response to me, then I presume you meant emmigration.
Nope. I meant 'emigration' as, I suspect, did you.
In which cae, it was you who made these claims in post 112.
"I think you'll find it'll be a key factor in the decision making process of many 18-year old wannabe graduates."
That's not what I understand by mass emigration. Mass emigration is like when an entire generation of Poles come to the UK to do the jobs our indigenous wasters are too idle to do. Not just (say) 25% of Scotland's 18-year olds.
The point I was getting at was that it'll be a bigger factor than many seem to imagine in the decision-making process of many 18-year-olds. It would certainly have swung things for me aged 18. With the result that Scotland's 18-year-olds are going to increase their applications down South. With the result that the uni's down south will pick the smarter ones. And the uni's up here will be left (on average) with the dimmer home-grown students supplemented by the dimmer ones from down south. An effective 'brain-drain' over time.
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In the case of smoking, if a non-smoker and smoker sat in the same room peacefully doing their own thing, then, according to research, the smoker is still endangering the non-smokers health and thus their "rights". So there is a case in that situation to change the law to restrict smoking.
In the case of drinking, if a non-drinker and a drinker sat in the same room peacefully doing their own thing. Then no-one is infringing anyone elses rights.
Oh come on. How about if a pub sticks up a sign 'Smoking allowed in this establishment'. The non-smokers are free to decide whether to go in or not and potential employees are free to decide whether to work there or not. Now all adults involved are making informed decisions.
What business is it of pointy-nosed politicians to get involved?
Then those who want to enjoy a smoke-free pint or meal can go to some 'No smoking' pub and those who want to have a conversation with their smoking mates can go to a 'smoking' pub.
Instead of what happens now which is, increasingly, everybody stays at home and the pub closes down.
The supermarkets sell more booze though so they'll be up for it.
It's called individual liberty and freedom of choice. It used to be a defining British characteristic. It's why, for example, Scotland does not put Fluorine in its water and why MMR vaccinations are not compulsory. Because our Victorian forefathers rejected this potential interference in our lives. Even if it was 'good' for us.
Liberty. Enjoy it while it's still fresh.
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Bangingonabout
"I'm saying anyone in that situation who wants to drink could do so without problem. So your argument doesn't stack up."
If they could continue to drink without problem then there is no issue here at all.
The point of this whole debate is that most people perceive that there will be a problem with under-21s being unable to purchase their own alcohol from an off-sales. So there will be more difficulty in accessing alcohol. It won't be impossible, but it will be more problematic.
Those who are desperate to find alcohol will find a way. So, again, if it's that important to the individual, they will continue to drink whenever they wish regardless of how it impacts on other parts of their lives, including their studies.
But there will be many, I suspect, who will not need alcohol so much, and who will find that an easing off of the expectation to drink will allow them to concentrate more on their studies.
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Scottish courses are not a mandatory four years, and nor are english a mandatory three. Correct me if I am wrong, but you can do a three year course in Scotland if you opt out of honours, and you can opt into a four year course in England to get honours.
And of course, in the wider average, wouldn't a honours degree give you higher earning potential than an ordinary degree?
But this is a tangent. No guarantee can be given that Scottish students would favour English universities (or foreign in general) purely because of the proposed new law, although I am happy to entertain the idea that it may be a factor. I still oppose the idea that any new law raising this age limit will produce a Scottish brain drain.
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U9461192:
You post 143. is full of assumptions.
The final costs of being at University South or North of the Border totally relies on the lifestyle you live and the circumstances you are under.
Please do not post 'assumptions'
I am sure if you used Google that you could find a link that would show the average debt that Students leave with North and South of the Border.
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Eoin_og:
Yes. Bingo!
"And of course, in the wider average, wouldn't a honours degree give you higher earning potential than an ordinary degree?"
No. It is something extra that you are able to do but is not a must.
"Scottish students would favour English universities (or foreign in general) purely because of the proposed new law."
Course. I'd rather continue with my current situation and leave Uni without debt at all rather then move South then loose my privilages that I have in Scotland.
However, I do not speak for all and I already mentioned that everyone has different circumstances.
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Correct me if I am wrong, but you can do a three year course in Scotland if you opt out of honours, and you can opt into a four year course in England to get honours.
And of course, in the wider average, wouldn't a honours degree give you higher earning potential than an ordinary degree?
Well it's been 20 years or so since I left Uni but at that time the vast majority of English degrees were three year courses and you got an 'honours' thrown in provided you didn't just 'pass' ie got a third, 2.2, 2.1 or First. The Scottish degrees were four years to get your 'honours'.
Something to do with starting (in Scotland) from a broader but shallower base after 'Highers' compared to 'A' Levels.
It may all have changed. Everybody seems to have a degree now. Well, half of them anyway. But I don't think it has.
The old, established English universities are still three year courses with your Hons thrown in. The re-badged adult literacy projects that now masquerade as 'universities' may well have four year courses in England but nobody who is responsible for graduate recruitment gives their CV's more than a cursory glance before tossing them in the bin so they're a complete waste of time and money anyway.
Just a cynical government ploy to hide you from the unemployment figures for three years (four in Scotland) at your own expense.
Same, I suspect, with the proliferation of 'New Universities' in Scotland. Master Porter take note.
But that is off on a bit of a tangent so I'll stop there.
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U9461192:
"Something to do with starting (in Scotland) from a broader but shallower base after 'Highers' compared to 'A' Levels."
These are almost the same but A Levels are slightly more difficult. I think down South students study longer for A Levels and Highers are more of a 'crash' type version.
"It may all have changed. Everybody seems to have a degree now. Well, half of them anyway. But I don't think it has."
Yes. To many have Degrees now apparently. You have a better chance of being given a job if you have the experience rather then the qaulifications.
"Just a cynical government ploy to hide you from the unemployment figures for three years (four in Scotland) at your own expense."
Quite alot of Students are actually employed within my local Supermarkets. Scotland also has the lowest unemployment figures within the United Kingdom I saw written somewhere anyway.
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Thomas_Porter:
You are behaving somewhat like a troll at the moment. Which is a shame, as I do agree with you on some of the points you have made.
However, in regard to your last post, the Labour policy for 50% university education has cheapened the value of degrees to the level that ordinary degrees are seen in a slightly negative light, and only honour degree holders are seen as viable potential employees. As a recent graduate from a Scottish University, I had to do a postgraduate Masters to strengthen my employment prospects in the (competitive) industry I chose. As a caveat, I would concede that an ordinary degree would be ok for vocational university courses and jobs.
However, aside from Thomas, the whole argument about students leaving Scotland as they wouldn't be able to have a beer at home is somewhat fatuous, in my opinion. When I went to university, it was based on 1) the course i wanted to do, and 2) the quality of the institutions available.
I do think that a more restrictive policy in terms of availability rather than eligibility would be more constructive. I spent the summer in Vancouver a few years ago, and the liquor stores were (to me) astonishingly strict in policing the customers' age.
Also, as several have commented, the Canadian and Australian model of dedicated liquor stores do become self-regulating - one slip up, and you're out of business.
Yet this model is not infallible, as on the few occasions of public celebration that occured when I was there, there were a few teenagers running around buckled. But only a few - not hordes.
Hand in hand with availability goes education. In Scotland, and the rest of the UK, there has to be a sea-change in attitude to alcohol. As a previous poster noted, the mediterranean countries with cheaper booze have fewer problems with alcohol (drunkeness being frowned upon strongly in Italy, as I nearly found to my cost), compared to the northern European countries. How fair these Isles would be if we could follow the more genteel attitudes of the Med!
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Where I wrote 'and only honour degree holders are seen as viable potential employees' above, should have read 'and honour degree holders are seen as more viable potential employees'.
First post failure. Apologies.
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aberdoniandownsouth:
"You are behaving somewhat like a troll at the moment."
My apologies. Nothing to do for over a month, can drive a fella crazy.
I also agree with pretty much agree with the rest you wrote also.
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Got to run chaps, dinner engagement. Can I just stress, as perhaps I ought to have earlier and as many other posters have done above, these are only proposals, and certainly not set in stone. Perhaps someone from the SNP will see this blog and take them on board. Perhaps not. We shall wait and see.
Re the student cost tangent, I agree with U9461912 in that it may be a factor in students deciding where to go to university, but I do not agree that it will be the defining one, nor even a particularly important one. But let us agree to disagree.
And the last sentence in #153 - having seen L'Auberge Espagnol, and spent a year and a hlaf on the continent, I could not agree more!
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Quite alot of Students are actually employed within my local Supermarkets. Scotland also has the lowest unemployment figures within the United Kingdom I saw written somewhere anyway.
Those UK unemployment figures are so rigged it's a national disgrace. 20 years ago only 7% of kids went to university. Now 50% go. 20 years ago only about 25% of 16 - 18 year olds took 'A' Levels now practically 100% go on to 18.
So three whole years of 43% of the entire 18-21 cohort no longer unemployed. They're not working. They're not helping GDP. But they're not unemployed. Maybe we should just send all the unemployed to university and then we'd have 0% unemployment.
These 43% of graduates then leave and do the jobs that 20 years ago they'd have been qualified to do aged 16 or 18. Call centre employees. Dixons sales assistants. McDonalds 'supervisors'. So now they're seven years older than they should be doing a rubbish job and 25K in debt.
Nice one.
Then they all sit around moaning about their debt and how they can't afford to get on the housing ladders even with their degree and 'skills'. Massively deluded about how clever they are because somebody supplied them with a certificate for spending three years cutting and pasting from the internet. You'd want a heart of stone not to laugh.
A complete mockery them unemployment figures. As for the millions hidden on 'incapacity' and revolving door 'New Deals'. You have to laugh really.
Those unemployment figures are a complete fabrication and if you or the SNP is basing your figures post-independence on whatever laughably low number the Labour administration has manufactured for Scotland then I suggest you dig a bit deeper.
Anyway this is way off-tangent.
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It's good to see the Scottish Government trying to tackle this issue but I can't see how any legislation could possibly provide more than a quick fix for some of the symptoms by making alcohol more difficult, in one way or another, to get hold of. And that always has the side-effect of making it more attractive anyway.
The big difference I've noticed is that, yes, we always got drunk but we used to feel a bit more guilty about it - not enough to stop us, but maybe enough to persuade most of us to more-or-less keep the heid most of the time. Because the one disincentive that actually does work is the prospect of everybody else thinking you're a steaming great numpty...
I think it's the gradual death of our old churchgoing, curtain-twitching, hypocritical, holier-than-thou attitudes that's the real cause of our current problem - the lack of an adequate replacement for them anyway.
But what can you do? Well, for want of a better solution I just try to look pitying or disgusted when I see people drunk, dish out the odd pompous moral lecture on the evils of drink, and generally try to find the most irritating ways of showing my disapproval of drunkeness at every opportunity. I also keep a bottle or two of whisky handy for a very occasional sip at bedtime - I've never been convinced that hypocrisy is altogether a bad thing...
But I am convinced that's all we really need if enough people join in. That's really what worked with drunk driving and seatbelts - and smoking was already dwindling long before there were any smoking bans purely down to the "who wants to be a numpty" effect.
So I'm glad to see the Scottish Government trying to tackle the issue and I hope they keep it up for as long as it takes. As long as they stick with just talking. And maybe enforcing some existing laws a wee bit - what's the odds against being lifted by the polis for being drunk these days? (It doesn't actually have to happen to put you off a bit, just has to seem like a possibility worth considering...)
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U9461192:
The unemployment figures may not be fully correct.
The point is Scotland has the lowest of them which would make Scotland successful compared to the other countries within the United Kingdom.
and to be fair being a unemployed and a student and being unemployed without continueing in education is different.
Least the student is doing something that can lead to better things rather then the unemployed who earns more staying home rather then actually working.
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Thomas_Porter:
After threads and threads of posts about how hard Scotland is done by by the rest of the Union, are you now telling me that Scotland is successful compared to the rest of it?
Let your guard slip there old boy ;-)
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Never having a shred of nationalist sympathy, I have none less realised I needed to cast around for new creed to follow.
I made a pact with myself that if this SNP administration could lead a way out of the social breakdown, of which binge drinking is just one outward sign......they would get my vote.
What we have here is a pretty lame idea. I am in Australia, and they are fiddling with this idea of pricing the problem away. It just will not get at the root of the problem.
Come on Alec, stop grandstanding and put some real effort into a raft of fundamentally new measures to lead disfunctioning families to a more optimistic future, and I will come back with my vote.
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Bangingonabout:
Qoute from SNP:
Mr Neil said;
?The latest figures from SDI show that Scotland is succeeding. With record numbers of investment projects and a record number of high value jobs coming to Scotland in the last year.
?Far from the doom and gloom predicted by the Labour party the SNP Government working with SDI has brought new investment to Scotland.
?Importantly it?s not just the number of projects we are bringing to Scotland it?s the quality.
?With a record number of high value jobs, those offering more than 20% of the average wage, and those targeted in research, design and development we are forging ahead in our ambitions to build an economy based on Scotland's strong skills and knowledge base.
?With unemployment at a record low and investment hitting a high in the last year the Scottish Government is working hard to deliver sustainable economic growth for Scotland?
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Although the smoking ban was pioneered by the previous administration, it's a shame that people in favour of it couldn't see passed their dislike of smoking to realise that what they were doing was giving the gov the nod to invade, control and restrict our private lives as it sees fit, and it was only a matter of time before the tightning of thumb screws on something else.
That is clearly evident in the current administration now that we have this latest hairbrained idea to penalise not only the majority of sensible 18-20 year olds, but make the 21+ use a separate till to buy alcohol with the aim of creating a stigma among fellow shoppers around the amount of alcohol purchased.
And make no mistake, if these measures go through, it will not be enough for them. As with what happened with smoking, not content with a ban, they had to go and raise the age of buying them to 18 and want them sold from under the counter. My prophecy, if these measures on alcohol are passed, is that at the first opportunity, the age of drinking in bars will also be raised to 21 in line with the age raise in supermarkets.
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I'll give a simple solution. Ban Buckfast.
In nearly every occasion I have seen violence or evidence of it, Buckfast has been involved. It's cheap, potent and filled with caffeine to keep a drunk awake long by his sell by. This is an explosive drink in young brains and those who defend it (ie the monks) should hang their heads in shame.
I guarantee if this was banned you would see an awful lot less problems amongst our drinking youth. (And our streets would be free of broken green glass!)
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Brian:
i think that a smoking ban is; good thing...
~Dennis Junior~
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