Burns an' a' that
I doubt they'll be served with "hamely fare" at the Tory conference dinner in Ayr this evening.
But David Cameron evinced a considerable sympathy for "honest poverty".
Late this afternoon, he was blethering about Burns with youngsters in auld Ayr who are keen to learn more about their local bard. Haggis was much mentioned.
But earlier Mr Cameron offered a more prosaic, yet passionate, take on Scotland's current condition.
Choosing from the Burnsian canon, the Tory leader is more in tune with the Unionist sentiments of "Does haughty Gaul invasion threat?" than the Nationalist onslaught on the parcel o' rogues.
His speech was an emphatic defence of the Union - together with an assertion that he'd rumbled Alex Salmond.
Mr Salmond, he suggested, would rather like a Tory Government in the UK - provided it neglected and undermined Scotland, prompting an enhanced desire for independence.
By contrast, Mr Cameron said that, whatever happens in the years ahead he'd govern the UK, including Scotland, with "respect." Intriguing word.
But, you know, they're really chipper here in Ayr. I guess that's what a massive by-election swing does for you.
They believe, they really believe, that Cameron, D. is heading for Downing Street.
How would he handle Scotland if and when he gets there? Change there would be.
Perhaps more powers for Holyrood through the Calman Commission.
(I say again: the Tories are in that Commission because they expect to have to deal with devolution post-2010. They expect to be in power.)
Probably English votes on English issues in the Commons - if that can be sorted.
And a review of the Barnett Formula. Or, more accurately, of the entire basis for allocation of public spending across the UK. In short, a needs review.
To be clear, Mr Cameron has said that before. To be clear, Barnett is not currently helping Scotland: it is Barnett which means that the percentage increase devoted to Scotland is less than in England.
Further, Mr Cameron - and Annabel Goldie - insist that they will do nothing which harms Scotland and, thus, jeopardises the Union.
But this is becoming intriguing. The Calman Commission introduces a new spending system for Scotland? Outcome? Almost certainly a UK needs-review, perhaps driven by the Treasury under the present Labour Government.
Alternatively, David Cameron comes to power. Result? A UK needs-review, perhaps driven by the Treasury under a Conservative Government.
Time to get out the "hodden grey"? Cash cuts in Scotland? Perhaps - but there is a considerable argument to be had. Both Labour and the Tories want to placate growing English disquiet over Scotland's proclaimed spending "advantage".
But neither wants to give Alex Salmond any more gift-wrapped opportunities to attract support. That would be ganging rather more agley than they intend.
I'm 
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~25~RS~)
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Respect does not work both ways, and as such a Tory government at Westminster is completely unacceptable to Scots.
David Cameron is not wanted in Scotland. Tell him to to take the low road to England.
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The Conservatives are never nice to Scotland.
Poll Tax?
Shipping Indsutries?
Coal mines?
Shall I continue?
The Tories can not continue to keep the support of the English down south and keep the Scots happy up north.
Anything they do to change the system will have to make sure they keep Scots and English happy.
Which is impossible.
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Labour is in a mess in Scotland. It looks like they will not return to power in the next Westminster election. SNP should offer Labour MSPs the chance to 'cross the floor' and join them to avoid any Tory resurgence in Scotland. We need a strong group of pro Scottish MSPs and MPs fighting for Scotland's future so that this country does not end up inthe social mess that now exists in most parts of England.
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I notice Ms. Goldie neatly sidestepped the issue of denying the electorate a say in Scotland's future in the webcast with her.
I had put forward a question that her, explicitly, regardless of her take on independence, why the People didn't deserve a right to a referendum given that a broad swathe of the electorate, upwards of 90% according to polls, want a referendum. Is, as you said Brian, frit of the answer. I think she is. I think her party is. The Middle England party will always be the Middle England party. Nothing, short of delivering Scottish independence complete with Maggie Thatcher's head on a spike as recompense will ever convince the Scottish electorate otherwise.
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patchmcturk,when I think of Labour MSP's ,"Pro-Scottish" is not the term that springs to mind . Labour's Dilemma is that it has to please the South of England voters in order to retain power in the UK, and Scotland and the South of England simply have different aspirations and problems,a fact that renders Independance increasingly likely.
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David Cameron the Conservative Leader who cold shouldered the Scottish Conservative leadership in Blackpool in September of 2007 now has committed to yet another public about face; will the media, which is increasingly populated with Conservative toadies ever be honest enough to admit the truth, even after we may possibly being delivered of Thatcherland II, The Return of the Curse of Alba?
I have heard statements this very morning that David Cameron has sanitised the Conservative Party and that he has "modernised his party;" do these journalists who publish this nonsense not realise he abandoned modernisation of the Conservative Party with his lurch to the right in Blackpool 2007, effectively unifying the Conservative party by not letting either of the radical wings of this bipolar political party into the 'secret' that the other faction has any power or influence.
Where the cat will be out of the bag will be in respect of Conservative policy; yes I did say Conservative policy, while Conservative policy is currently a bit of a fuzzy misnomer, at the next General Election there will need to deliver far more than vague references to policy.
Will the centre left of the Conservative party be happy with the policies of the right being inserted into what they perceive as their manifesto?
Will they realise this is the price David Cameron has to repay the old extreme right of the party for their continued silence, well at least since August 2007?
Will the old right of the Conservative party be happy with the policies of the centre left being inserted into what they perceive as their manifesto?
Will they realise this is the price David Cameron has to repay the centre left of the party for their continued obedience, well at least since August 1834?
Will both factions be convinced to hold their peace when offered the prospect of regaining power at Scotland’s cost?
The Thatcherites who are being slipped out from behind the curtain hung by David Cameron to mask the fissure in that bipolar Conservative party, the likes of John Selwyn Gummer, John Redwood, Michael Portillo, Malcolm Rifkind, Andrew Lansley, Francis Maude and Jonathon Aitkin to name but a few cause my blood to run cold.
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Brian
I think the tories are working on the misplaced assumption that they will return a lot more Scottish MPs at the next general election. That just aint going to happen. We all have longer memories than that.
Its possible they could roll up to Westminster on a tandem, if they get enough to fill a mini they will be over the moon.
Although aunt Bella is the best of the opposition leaders, in truth she does not have much to beat, but that is no enough to get Westminster MPs elected.
No wonder our favorite auntie dodged the referendum question. Just imagine 20plus SNP MPs, say 4 max tories, and Scotland still getting shafted at Westminster. Perfect backdrop for a referendum. As the saying goes "bring it on"
Patchmacturk
Why would we want to offer Labour MSPs a lifeline, when we will take their seats in 2011? Who would we want anyway? Gray for TV interviews? Curran for informed debate? McCabe for well nothing?
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Dubbieside:
I say we take Wendy and once Gordon looses his seat we offer them a place.
The SNP need a few jesters.
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The whole of Scotland is watching with interested eyes. We've had it with being poll tax guinea pigs. We've had it with Labour's numpty mafia lining their own pockets. We've already got rid of the numpties. And if Lord Snooty thinks we're about to welcome him in with open arms he's living in cloud cuckoo land. People here increasingly feel it's time for a real change. An end to self-serving politicians maintaining a front of opposition for the public's benefit. It doesn't wash any more - at least not in Scotland. I am cheering Cameron on because the more it looks like he will win the more certain the people of Scotland will finally decide it's time for independence.
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An interesting blog, and many thanks for it; I must start by confessing myself as pro-independence, so that others can skip this post if they are in the habit of so doing.
I would just like to say that bizarrely, I feel a little bit of warmth towards the Tories. I am not old enough to remember the breaking of the unions 'the enemy within', or the poll tax, which may account for this feeling; but I feel it is rather because they are at least providing Salmond with some kind of challenge.
Do not mistake me - I could never envisage a situation where I would vote Tory as a Scot, which is in a way poor as every party should be taken on their merits, rather than on old grudges.
In saying that though, I am happy to say that in my opinion the best performers, with the best ideas and long term plan are the SNP, and I look forward to voting for Scotland to become a separate nation in 2010.
Regards to all
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The Tories, perhaps not unexpectedly, are getting carried away ever so slightly.
Great ratings in the polls, great win by Boris, great council wins...but they are in England.
This won't replicate itself in Scotland. Up here we have an alternative to Labour. Because that's what it boils down to. Labour are in meltdown, and people are just fed up with them becasue they have been in power too long.
Brown is "Dead Man Walking" This is not just about the economy, this is about an unpopular leader. The problem is, they have no successor waiting in the wings.
In Scotland, Wendy is in exactly the same position.
But in Scotland we have an alternative...the SNP.
I can see the Tories being in power for at least a decade. What the people of Scotland have to decide is, do we want to do something about it ? The only solution this time is the SNP and independence.
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Brian, good work on forcing AG to give a definitive "no" to supporting a referendum vote. It'll be interesting to see how many votes they gain by"defending the union" and how many they lose by "denying the people a voice". Personally I see a "no" vote producing an overall negative result for them.
As was mentioned in the webcast, AG is a very entertaining and incisive questioner at FMQs, her banter with AS being the usual highlight. But like all Tories, I can only handle her in small doses it seems. It's a shame she has to resort to the usual unionist nonsense...
Scottish "security council influence"... I still challenge someone to name a single instance of the UK's SC seat being used to influence world affairs to the primary advantage of Scotland.
A "parochial Scottish Six"... who in their right mind would stand for an hour of news coverage which didn't deal with world affairs?
Influence in the EU and Nato... more seats and a commissioner as an independent country in the EU and the ability to reposition ourselves into a more neutral "Partnership for Peace" position in NATO.
Like Dave Cameron, AG is a rare breed of likeable Tory, but at heart she still stands for values that don't represent Scotland. Hope they win the next Westminster election though, then we'll see how long DC manages to be so complimentary about AS. I give him 3 months until he's calling him a "dirty meddling Nat"!
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Where is the substance in the cameron camp?what will he do about the EU treaty?how will he fix the economy?what will he do about school,s,hospitals and employment?what is his take on Iraq and Afghanistan?what will he do to ensure that those with the least get a bit of ease?"FOR A' THAT MORE LIKE FOR A' WHAT?"over to you Brigadierjohn,remember the union may depend on the policy.
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The Tories remain in their handful of bastions in Scotland (like Ayr which they may just control at Westminster post 2010). The fact is that the best they can hope for in Scotland is a distant third place, and considering the state that the Liberals are currently in, thats not much of an achievement.
Cameron and Goldie can never represent anything more than a small slice of Scottish society.
They both claim they will do nothing to damage the Union. It seems to me, however, that English-only votes in The Commons (as fair as that would be) is tantamount to initiating "divorce" proceedings against Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.
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Driving back from Tesco's in Ayr this morning I noticed a large number of Chelsea tractors, Mercs and BMWs in the car park in front of Ayr Racecourse.
I knew there had been a race meeting on Wednesday (abandoned as it happens) and I was aware that Status Quo are there tomorrow night, so what could this flash event be?
Then on the lunchtime news I saw the serried ranks of the Scottish Tories, average age c 70, and it clicked. The new improved greener Tory Party was doing its bit for the local economy and leaving a hefty carbon footprint in the process.
But I digress. Their new improved nice leader, the boy David, had flown into town without the need of a plane having been carried along by the euphoria of the Crewe by-election. And what did he tell us? He does not want to be the Prime Minister of England, which will most certainly be his de facto position sometime in 2010.
The real politik in Scotland is that people have long memories and the Cameron bounce is likely to rebound at the border, and with the Tories flatlining around the 15 point mark they are unlikely to win more than a a few seats at the next general election. Disillusionment with Labour will not transfer to them as it did in Crewe, so no prizes for guessing who will benefit.
Cameron v Salmond will be an intriguing clash to watch as it plays out, and whatever the outcome the United Kingdom and its constituent parts will never be the same again.
We live in very interesting times!
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In the 1950s, the conservatives polled more than 50% of the vote in Scottish elections. The SNP was a fringe party then. Stranger things have happened in Scottish politics than a reversal of fortune, and no one is entitled to say that 'David Cameron is not welcome in Scotland.'
Everyone is welcome in Scotland.
Some readers blame the conservatives for the decline in Scottish manufacturing. Cheap labour overseas caused the decline of manufacturing right throughout the West. Scottish independence will not help restore it.
A new 10 billion pound contract from the British government to build two aircraft carriers in Scottish shipyards will.
I am not a conservative, but I welcome their return to viability. I am fed up with the arrogance of those who claim only their party speaks for Scotland, especially the supporters of a minority SNP administration.
The vast majority of Scottish voters support an inclusive, tolerant Britain, not independence. Let David Cameron make his case in the land of his ancestors. I will still support Labour but I respect him.
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The Conservatives plan to defend the Union.
How?
The Conservatives plan to defend the Union by not allowing the Scottish Public to vote against the Union.
The Unionists know that given the chance that the Scottish Public would decide to leave the Union.
If I am wrong then why are the Conservatives against the referendum?
They are even against the Unionists who are for the referendum.
The Tories are not even in power yet they are dictating the public what we are allowed.
VforVictory:
The Conservatives are to blame for the decline in the Shipping Industry at Glasgow.
And also one of the factors that make it difficult for our Industries to compete in the wider world is because we are the highest taxed country in Europe.
Cheap labour is only one factor.
For example, recently in London one company who are taxed 400 million annually were considering leaving Britain to set up abroad. (Read BBC, UK News)
And last but not least I disagree with you that in your own words "...am fed up with the arrogance of those who claim only their party speaks for Scotland."
Because Labour, Conservatives and Lib Dems are always looking over their shoulders to see if their London Leaders approve.
They are not able to go against their Parties wishes even when it goes against Scotland.
The S.N.P. on the otherhand have no loyalty to London and that has gave them a great advantage on the politcal field because they are able to stand up for Scotland and not worry about their own London bosses.
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Britain isn't the highest taxed country in Europe. That's completely and utterly untrue.
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Anaxim:
Prove me wrong.
;-)
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The OECD places the UK's tax take as 36% of GDP in 2004. The EU average is 39%.
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I doubt whether people in Scotland are ready to flock to the Tories. Not enough water has flowed under the bridge since the bad old days of Conservative government the last time around.
Too many people in this country have personal experience of the damaging effects of Conservative misrule. I myself cannot yet bring myself to let bygones be bygones on account of my experience of the ill-conceived Poll Tax or Community Charge, as nobody ever called it so far as I can recall except Margaret Thatcher.
The Poll Tax legislation was not only premised upon a dubious principle but was riddled with absurd and outrageous anomalies and produced not benefit to Scotland but maladministration, administrative malfunction and indeed costly chaos on a massive scale. It brought government into disrepute. It brought the Tories into disrepute. It brought the United Kingdom into disrepute.
One may have a soft spot for Annabel Goldie, who is an admirable parliamentarian and a wise strategist, but voting for the Tories would in my view be to go far too far in rewarding her for the undoubtedly valuable contribution which she is making in the present parliament. The Scottish National Party is making a much more valuable contribution and richly deserves to be given an opportunity to do so with a parliamentary majority when the next Holyrood elections come around.
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Don't you think it's rude to impersonate people?
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May not be in favour of it but could Scottish independance be won on the playing fields of Eton
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Axanim:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2006/oct/12/business.politics
This information backs up your claim.
But if you do your own calculations and by using the link I have shown you then you will notice that in 2008 Britain has become one of the heavily taxed countries in Europe.
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No, it would at best show that Britain has moved to EU average levels (39%).
Mexico has very low tax levels, they make up the difference with oil. A fat lot of good it's done them.
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I agreee with #16, David Cameron is welcome in Scotland. I think the Barnet formula has had it's day and that Scottish MP's have no right to vote on English issues. It won't make me me angry when the Tories win the next election or when the Labour losers are plunged into political obscurity (again).
When the Tories are back in Westminster Fuel tax will stay the same and we'll have another Westminster government profiteering from an international crisis. We'll still have no soveriegnty or defence in our own control. Nothing will really change but Mr Cameron is a livelier character than Brown (but so is a old sock). Good luck to him.
Then when all the people of Scotland realise that there is little to split them we'll start to look at the future on our own. As another blogger said, we live in interesting times.
The Tories are on a high this month, let's let them enjoy it.
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Anaxim:
And what you have shown is the average intake on National Income...
You have ignored everything else to do with tax that is not taken from you directly.
VAT, Coperate Tax etc etc
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#17
"The Unionists know that given the chance that the Scottish Public would decide to leave the Union."
With respect, either you are extremely uninformed, very naiive in your understanding of politics, or deliberately trying to mislead the readers of this forum.
Every single poll ever on Scottish Independence has came back showing less than majority support. I'll repeat that just in case you didn't quite understand, every single poll ever shows that the Scottish people don't want independence.
The logical conclusion from that would be that fear of the result isn't why Annabelle Goldie says she will vote No to a referendum bill. Add to that the fact that wendy Alexander has now came out and publicly backed a referendum. If she really feared that the Scottish people would vote for it then she would have sat tight in the knowledge that the SNP won't ever have the majority that they need in the parliament to pass the bill.
There's lots of fair discussion to be had about whether we should have a referendum or not, but in the current political climate it is misleading, deliberately misleading at that, to claim that the Scottish public would vote yes if they voted tommorrow. Alex Salmond doesn't seriously expect to win this referendum, but he wants to make progress, so that he can win the second, third or fourth time that he calls a referendum, the way the PQP have tried in Quebec.
On what Miss Goldie said today, I was originally of the view-point that the opinions expressed by the head of the CBI in Scotland, and according to polling are the views of a considerable majority of the public, that we should have a referendum so that we can deal with the issue and get back to governing, was the sensible way forward. I am sympathetic to the arguments she made today though.
I don't think as people have asserted earlier in this discussion that she dodged the question. She said quite firmly that she wouldn't vote for a referendum because there was no evidence that the Scottish people wanted to vote yes (which is the only real reason why you're supposed to have referendums) and because she didn't believe it would silence the SNP in the way advocates of a referendum would hope, thus causing much worse problems for Scotland with continual uncertainty over the future. The example of Quebec and all of the problems that have been caused by caving to a minority supported nationalist party.
What I would do if I were Goldie though, is support a referendum, allow themselves and labour therefore to deal with the problems of Salmond trying to mislead people with a watered down question etc and put a demand of a time limit on it. Call for a definition of what Salmonds "generation" means and say, we'll allow this referendum if you agree not to call for one for another 20 or 30 years say. That way we can achieve the goal of getting back to the actual important governance issues, the SNP who aren't actually that bad at governing won't be pre-occupied with picking fights that aren't there to try and convince us that there are problems which don't exist, and we won't have the uncertainty problems that we are suffering from now.
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After listening to DC rhetoric there was one phrase which stood out "that he would defend the union even if it was imperfect" (not word perfect) I find this tone to imply more Dictatorship not Democracy which is what we are looking for. Divorce, amicable or heated, is the only solution that will bring back something nearer Democracy.
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NCA999:
The last Polls actually came back at 41% of the Scottish Public would like Independence while 40% are against Independece. With 19% who said 'Dont know'
But my point is if the Unionists are confident of victory then there should be no reason for voting against the SNP referendum.
Because according to them (Unionists) they represent the majority and Independence will not come.
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"Further, Mr Cameron - and Annabel Goldie - insist that they will do nothing which harms Scotland"
Seems a rather unrealistic and a somewhat
condescending statement. Given that
around 85% or more of Scotland is likely to
vote against Conservatives policies then
they vast majority of Scots are going to
get policies they do not want. How this
can not be regarded as harm is beyond
me. Basically the 15% Conservatives
in Scotland are not harmed and the Union
is not harmed, but this seems a very low
moral bar to me.
I have a basic theory here which I would
appreciate your opinion on Brian.
My basic theory is that Westminster and
the Union are just a gentleman's
game for Labour and the
Conservatives where each takes
a turn at the helm and once
they have been there too long their
arch-enemy deserves a shot. Recent
statements from Cameron appear to
support exactly that e.g.
"we have to win every vote and deserve to" Basically these people would rather have their
arch-enemy in charge of Westminster
than have Scotland become a free nation.
As Gordon Brown said recently he will do anything and everything to
secure their precious Union.
The esteemed Lord Foulkes states the
rules of the games very simply and no
doubt all the major players are
in agreement :
"the introduction of proportional representation in Scotland
has been an absolute tragedy. We have
seen chaos,confusion and cuts.Will my
noble friend assure us that,
because of this experience, we will stick
to the tried and tested system of first
past the post, which has
given us stability in this country for decades."
see - tinyurl.com/378suf
Of course the "STABILITY" to which
Foulkes refers is the stability
of the Union. The cost on Scotland of
having Thatcher having her turn at the helm was evidently a cost worth paying since
she clearly DESERVED her turn at the helm. Cameron now DESERVES his turn at the helm and no doubt in another suitable period at the helm another member of this private club will be anointed - an Alexander perhaps :).
Either way Scotland will have no say
in the running of this exclusive
gentleman's club.
It simply does not seem to be in
Scotland's best interests to be part
of this Union when we are effectively
black balled from any material impact
on the real decision making.
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I am a Scot who left for England in 1981, and I now live in Australia. I hope the Tories win the general election and that the English vote to break up the Union. Then you can all sit about moaning and whingeing to your hearts' content, with no-one to blame but yourselves. Scotland is backward and welfare dependent and smug.
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"Cuddly" Dave Cameron, in reality yet another right wing Tory yob, is being presented as a traditional "one nation" Tory.
As the Scots will undoubtedly experience to their disafvour, that nation will be as in all previous cases - England.
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I'm glad that, in contrast with previous blogs, people are generally spelling "independence" correctly. This "independance" that some people were calling for confused me a little. I thought for a minute that Alex Salmond might be proposing a referendum on whether we should have one big ceilidh or disco, or if we're really lucky, both! That would show Westminster we mean business!
Personally I think that a complete demise of the Union would be a sad thing but with Labour being utterly clueless, the Lib Dems being ineffectual, and the Tories being perennially unpopular in Scotland, it may be inevitable. What I strongly agree with, though, is Sir Tom Hunter's assertion that an early referendum, no matter what its outcome, would remove the uncertainty caused by the current state of affairs- i.e. a near-"limbo" situation which can only damage Scotland's long-term international business prospects.
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Its incredibly amusing to read all these"posts"from semi hysterical wee NATS!!!!
Oh my god!!!!! Scottish voters could never ever consider the tories again!!!???How stupid,it will never happen!!!???
Me thinks "you doth protesteth to much".
From a Scot living in Norway,with (god help me for admitting on this blog)an ENGLISH wife the SNP bloggers funded by Alex and Nicola "fish wife" Sturgeon(is that not a big fish full of something?) all really deserve each other.
GET A LIFE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
And some advice,the whingeing and parochialism is truly cringe making.
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A Note to David Cameron:
You used your latest flying visit to Scotland yesterday to again misrepresent and attack the legitimate and essential aspiration of Scottish independence as 'the ugly stain of separatism'.
Despite our growing accustomed to such negative and poisonous language from the unionist camp, it scarcely befits a would-be-statesman - and one who seeks to govern us at that - to deploy the politics of hateful prejudice upon Scotland's fresh, popular and empowering administration, or its compelling aspirations for our country's democratic future.
Mr Cameron, Scottish democracy is a matter for the Scottish people - which is in sharp and principled contrast to your own party's inherently middle-English ethics, and your plans to impose them in all parts of this 'United Kingdom'.
Whatever the self-indulgent 'feel-good factor' resulting from your by-election victory over Labour, Scotland is enjoying her own 'feel-good factor' of considerably greater substance and significance.
Adopting your own theme, the ugliest and most indelible political stain on the memory of the Scottish people is the one left by the callous and invidious legacy of Thatcherism - and your party’s trustworthiness and popularity will justly find itself continuing to struggle to attain a distant third place in any foreseeable Scottish election.
You presume the right to govern Scotland 'with respect'. That scenario requires two fundamental factors:
1. Your effective demonstration of that notional 'respect'.
2. The mandate, or consent, of the Scottish people.
On all available evidence, and by the manner and means of your Tory predecessors, you will not be governing with either.
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It's a shame that ex-pat scots seem to be coming on here for a bit of a lambast [#32 , #35]. If it's "truly cringe making" for you, just don't read it, pal. There's always some stuff written on blogs that isn't top-notch. There's usually stuff written on this blog which is pretty interesting and revealing, one way or another. It's always sad when people leave and check up on those they've come from and make slights from afar. If anything, it seems "backward" and "smug".
Anyway...I doubt the Scottish Conservatives will grow in any significant way until/unless they accept the idea/possibility of being the Scottish Conservatives in an independent Scotland, or at least a heavily devolved Scotland. Parties with Westminster(ie. middle England) at their helm, I think, will find it increasingly difficult to gain the trust of the Scottish electorate.
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David Cameron's preferred option is to keep both Europhobes and Europhiles silent, each holding the belief that of the two factions of the Conservative Party their doctrine will be sacrosanct; lest we forget neither of these bipolar wings ever served the interests of Scotland and the Scottish voters.
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Who's afraid of Cameron? Quite a few, it would seem! Still, it brings some relief to Wendy that the SNP have found a new, if temporary, target for their bile.
Cooliecorkie #35: You said it all.
Cameron certainly seems to have Salmond's devious agenda rumbled, ie, if you can't win Scottish votes, foster English antipathy.
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Right,
I'm getting annoyed at having to continually explain this to some people who evidently don't understand some basic concepts but I will try one final time.
Thomas, with regards your response to me, thats absolutely a mis-representation.
Firstly, if there was a referendum on Independence and 41% voted for independence, that wouldn't be a majority.
Secondly, that isn't, I'm going to repeat this because some of you guys don't seem to understand the word, IS NOT, the most recent poll conducted. Recent polls actually put support between 19 and 25%, with Salmonds rapidly rising popularity rising at the same rate as support for independence is falling. The most recent comprehensive poll was conducted by yougov at the end of April which found the 19% support result.
Thirdly, and this is the MOST important point in this issue. Whilst support levels vary over time, the one thing which is consistent, and can therefore be concluded from the polls, is that there has never, ever, and I repeat this again for the people that don't get it, never has there been a poll showing majority support. You can't keep waving a poll around showing 41% support from ages ago and claiming that if 4/10 people in Scotland once wanted independence that this is an obviously overwhelming public mandate.
By all means claim that Independence is a good thing.
By all means assert Alex Salmonds right to call a referendum even when there appears to be no popular demand for change.
By all means assert that Salmond is somehow going to persuade us of the case by 2010.
Please don't blindly keep claiming that we, the scottish people, currently support independence. Because we clearly don't.
Onto Annabelle Goldies position, why should she support Alex Salmonds referendum? Voting for a referendum lends legitimacy to the question being asked, which she doesn't consider to be appropriate. If she wants to protect the country, then its irresponsible for her to vote for a referendum on breaking up the country, regardless of whether she expects it to fall or not.
Whilst if I were in her shoes I would deal with the fact that whilst the SNP don't represent a majority of Scots, Labours support has now made their referendum possible. Deal with Alex Salmonds attempt to mislead us with the question, deal with the serious concern that the SNP will just keep calling for referendums until they win one (which as it looks unlikely they ever will could cause pretty big problems for us), deal with the reality that a referendum is going to have to happen and act to make sure that it happens properly. This is what I would do, but there's absolutely nothing inappropriate in the position she is taking, and I don't understand why people have attacked her for standing up and saying,
I don't want Independence, the Scottish people don't want Independence, why should I support a vote to have independence?
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NCA999:
According to the Poll that I showed which option got the greater number of votes?
It was for Independence.
If that happens in the referendum then that option whatever it is will happen.
But my point is that if Independence will not happen (according to Unionists) then the Unionists should stop avioding the referendum and take the SNP head to head.
And I have seen Polls which show a majority for Independence for over the years and I agree that it does vary.
What we should agree on that there is about 30% of swing voters who switch from Independence to against Independence and that when a referendum comes we should have two questions and two questions only to those who constantly change their opinion to pick on side.
And I also do not see how you can say that the Scottish Public do not want not want Independence.
A Poll consists of about 1000 different people and nowhere near represents the hundreds of thousands who were not asked.
The only answer is a referendum that is constantly denied and why?
Because the Parties know that the referendum would not go in their favour.
;-)
And you can say that Salmond is out to mislead the public with the question but their is only one legal way for the Scottish Gov to put forward that question and that is the SNP way.
But who does not know that the SNP want Independence?
Its been all over the News and in the papers. The public are intelligent enough to know that they are voting for or against the Union.
And she is not supporting a vote for Independence.
She should be supporting the right for the Scottish Public to have a voice.
But is she backing the referendum? No.
The Tories are not in power yet they are already denying Scotland her basic rights.
If she backs a referendum she can campaign all she wants to stay in the Union but at the end of the day least she has allowed the Scots to decide their future.
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p.s. I assure you that is not the only Legal question that can be asked in a referendum.
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NCA999:
Then please share another option that can be asked.
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grr... That was supposed to be the end of a much longer post, think it over-rode it when I posted a p.s.
To respond to your point about the referendum question, they could just ask it directly, like "Do you want Scotland to leave the UK and become an Independent country" The result isn't legally binding, is just a collection of the opinions of the people of Scotland.
Back to the stuff I said in response to your other post;
I'm going to explain something to you about statistics and politics. I've personally studied statistics at university level, but frankly I would expect a 12 year old to understand this point.
1. 41% is not a majority as its a lower number than 50. Simple right? You would think.
2. Undecideds vote too, they just haven't made up their mind at the time of being asked, ergo 41% isn't a majority.
3. Since support levels vary between 15 and 40 percent, and given the experience of every other country in similar circumstances, people that are still undecided on the day of the election generally vote for the status quo, ergo 41% isn't a majority.
4. If 4/10 people vote for independence in one poll, how can you claim to have obvious, overwhelming public support for your cause?
On your second point about support levels varying by 30%, assumedly between around 15 and 45 which are roughly the upper and lower limits of registered support for independence. If it is varying between 15 and 45, how is this majority support, given that a majority is, wait for it, MORE THAN 50%! what is difficult about this concept? Surely if there was such an overwhelming movement of support for independence there would have been one poll in recent history thats had support at 51% at least?
On polls, No polls aren't always accurate. But I'll say two things,
firstly they are getting considerably more accurate, note that yougov got the london mayor elections exactly right.
secondly, one poll might not be perfect, dozens are. When every poll ever puts support levels below 50% you can quite clearly say that there isn't widespread popular support for a move.
To give an example analagous situation to your argument.
I would like to demand a referendum on Independence for the people of Argyll and Bute. If they vote against it I will ask for another one in 10 years time.
If I raised this at the Scottish Parliament the SNP wouldn't vote to have such a referendum. Why not? 2 reasons,
1. Because there is no evidence of popular demand for an independent Argyllshire
2. Because the SNP don't want to see the break-up of Scotland.
They would be completely valid in voting no to my referendum bill for those reasons, regardless of whether or not I repeatedly stamp my feet and claim they are denying the people their right to decide on their future.
Given that there is no evidence of popular support for Independence and given that the Tories don't want the break-up of the country, why are they wrong to vote against a referendum in the exact same circumstances as I outlined above?
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NCA999:
The Scottish Gov has no authority or mandate to ask that question in that manner.
And yes I do understand statistics.
But the outcome does not have to be over 50% on this referendum.
The option that receives the greatest number of votes will be the way Scotland heads in future.
For example,
40% Independence
37% More Powers
23% Powers all return to Westminister
If the three question happens to have this type of turn out then Independence wins and it shall be done.
Alex Salmond has actually asked for the referendum to be placed under STV which will allow 2 options to be considered which will eventually bring one option at least over 50%.
But the Unionist Parties disagreed.
And there are different Factors that effect Polls.
The amount of people asked and at the time it is asked.
And for that reason a referendum is the best way forward because it actually means something and people are more interested.
Scotland is a country that has never had the right or has been asked if we would like to continue or be in the Union.
And it is for that reason why a referendum is needed.
The Scottish people finally have a voice after 300 years.
Since the S.N.P. was elected to Government I would say that was evidence enough for constituational change.
The Tories do not want the break up of the country? Have you admitted that their is a chance that Independence will be a reality? I thought Scotland staying in the Union was a sure thing?
The Tories do not want a referendum because they are afraid of the verdict. It should be simple. Referendum in 2010, Union wins, SNP is silenced for 10 years till the next generation of Nationalists are born.
If the Union does not defend herself how does she expect to silence the Nationalists?
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Why can't some people accept that 41% is more (marginally) than 40%? Whats going on?!
It was also mentioned earlier that 41% vote for independence would not result in it - indeed! The poll and those citing it did not make that claim. But why assume that the 19% undecided are really all union-jack wearing, Labour voting mindless fodder? It might as well be said that 40% support for the status-quo would not secure the Union.
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Pattymkirkwood:
10% of the public who usually vote Lib Dem/Labour or Tories would vote for Scottish Independence
And about 15% who do not vote at all would vote for Scottish Independence if the opportunity arised.
;-)
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NCA999:
All anyone needs to "understand" from your long-winded and patronising posts is the phrase: "just a collection of the opinions of the people of Scotland" which tells us everything we need or want to know about you.
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NCA999
The 41% that is referred to is the result from one opinion poll. You appear to think that if 41% voted yes and 40% voted no that would not be a result.
If in the referendum vote, when it comes, if only three people vote, and two vote yes, then the result is yes.
That is democracy, which the last time I looked is still practiced here. If you do not vote you do not count, end of story.
As it is, at the moment most people in Scotland say it is still too close to call. Once Cameron is in Downing Street that will be a different story.
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If you're seriously asserting that the government would accede to SNP demands to break-up the UK if they were waving a referendum showing 40% support for independence then you really are very naiive mate. Your assertion that if we had a 3 way referendum showing 40-37-23% support would mean "independence wins" is a joke. Given that in that example, 60% of the people voting have said that they want to stay in the UK, with either a Scottish parliament that has more powers or the same as it is now, how exactly can you claim legitimacy in saying that the view of the 40% represents the Scottish people? This is entirely the problem with Nats, you seek to force your own viewpoint on the silent majority and thats wrong.
If you had an STV vote in that example the middle criteria would win overwhelmingly as well. Why? because the smallest result, notably the stay the same voters would all vote second preference for staying in the uk with additional powers.
Clearly you don't understand statistics very well if you make up an example and don't understand what the result of that example would be.
I remind you that I'm quite happy to have a referendum on Independence and, as the leader of Scottish business asked for, to "lance the boil of the independence call". What I want to know is why, given that there isn't any evidence of popular support for independence, and given that the tories don't support independence, why is it so heinously wrong for them not to support a referendum on independence?
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Oh, and I thank you for making my point for me Thomas, "SNP is silenced for 10 years till the next generation of Nationalists are born."
The economy and political situation in Quebec has been massively harmed since they acceded to having the first referendum and ended in this pointless rollercoaster of referendums. I can see exactly why the tories want to oppose that, it screws us all over just to push the views of a minority.
If you're allowed to keep calling a referendum every ten years until you get a result you like, thats making a mockery of the Scottish public and doing harm to our economy.
"We'll keep asking you the same question until you give us the right answer" is NOT democracy.
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NCA999:
You are upset that based on a three option referendum if Independence gains the most votes then you loose.
It does not matter if it does not get past 50% or not.
If the Westminister Government can be elected with a majority in Parliment for gaining 30-35% of votes in a General Election then the SNP can have an Independent Scotland if they happen to win the most votes even if it is less then 50%.
That is how Politics is played. Understand that.
And their is popular evidence for change because the SNP are in power. The very people who represent one of the biggest changes in recent history.
And quit using Quebec as an example. The Scottish public has not even been given one referendum yet and you are fretting about having loads of others.
And if you want to talk about Democracy can you explain how Scotland got into the Union in the first place.
Scotland was bankrupt at the time and then we were forced into a Union which was resented North and South of the Border.
Where was Democracy then?
And then what happened...1715 a rebellion against the Union occured then the next generation in 1745 a similar rebellion occured.
Scotland did not get into the Union in a Democratic manner.
So dont you dare try and use the word democracy when trying to explain anything to do with the Union to me.
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You have basically just said,
If 40% of the Scottish public say in a referendum that they want Independence, and 60% say they want to stay in the Union, that is evidence that the majority of people want independence.
I promise you mate, if there is no majority support, there will be no independence, ever!
I've no intention of replying to you again, clearly you don't understand even the simplest of concepts. The fact that you are willing to overwrite the views of 60% and claim that a minority has more rights in our democracy that the majority is evidence that you don't holster views with which I can agree.
Frankly your position is laughable, and no British government will ever agree with you.
I would also point out that if the SNP were able to break us away from the union on 40% support, the UN wouldn't even recognise us as a state, because one of the important principles of statehood is that the majority of the population support the independence of the state, which you have conceded we don't.
You want to pick up history, Scotland used to have a clan system, but that was forcefully overthrown by the first Scottish Kings. Again I ask, under your argument, why can't I have independence for Argyll and Bute?
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NCA999: You are wasting your time, your education and your wisdom on Thomas, who is 16 years old (he told us) and has not therefore had time to acquire the knowledge and understanding to debate with you.
I have tried, at length, to make some simple points to the SNP claque. The result is abuse, failure to address issues, and a wonderful ability to answer a different question to what was asked.
Whether it's 60% (or, as I believe, 90%) of the population who reject them - wait till you see the replies to that! - on the issue of separation, more and more are seeing through it.
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NCA999:
What I said was which ever option gains the most votes is the option Scotland chooses.
And if you want to ignore that and make up other stories then I guess you have the right to be another Gordon Brown.
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Brian,
The anti-Conservative vitriol was just what I expected from some of the regular posters. What an unforgiving lot some of my fellow Scots are. Let's at least hear what David Cameron has to say before rejecting it.
Before taking a look at some of their gripes, we should remember that it was the SNP failing to support the Callaghan government in 1979 that led to the election of Margaret Thatcher and 18 years of Conservative government.
One poster recounted loss of the shipbuilding, mining, and steel industries. However, he forgot to include the growth of silicon glen, the service industries, and the host of other 'value-added' industries that grew up in their place. I have visited mines and steelworks, and can say I much preferred my past working environment in the computer industry - better paid too.
The Poll Tax, at least it was fair. I was single at the time, and so lost out paying more in Community Charge that I did in rates. Everyone who was eligible should have paid towards local services. The mistake was introducing it in Scotland only: it should have been implemented throughout the UK at the same time.
One benefit, courtesy of the Conservatives, some posters have forgotten to mention, and one which has been of enormous benefit to a generation of Scots and their children, is the right to buy their council houses and the subsequent transfer of wealth to the next generation. I think this right to buy has been the biggest single factor in the transformation of Scotland over the last 30 years.
On that last point, which party has expressed an intention to end the right to buy? The SNP, of course. Hmmm, we are right back where we started. Scotland's best interests at heart? Not if you look back far enough.
Best Wishes,
William1957.
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Brigadierjohn:
I actually take a class that covers Politics and other issues.
In otherwords, I am far more capable as a person to speak about these type of matters then others might be.
And I am still waiting to hear exactly how you, your family and your country looses out in an Independent Scotland?
But John, Do you not agree that which ever option gains the most votes is the option that Scotland must accept no matter what it is?
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And William the right to buy our council houses was a brillient idea.
However, the Labour/Lib Dems did not bother to rebuild the houses that were being bought.
This has led to an increase in those seeking a house of their own and fewer council houses overall available to the public.
The SNP would like to end the right to buy in order to ensure that the younger generations have affordable houses while they increase the amount of council houses being built.
And since house prices are still rising in Scotland I do not think many will argue against the SNP on this matter unless they have their own idea on how to solve the issue of affordable homes.
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Lest we forget. The devastation of Scotland wrought in the 1980's is the fault of the Conservatives and them alone. They gloried in their embellished achievements so they can rightly stand the blame for all that they did wrong too.
Many of our EU partners have viable, profitable and substantial manufacturing industries including Shipbuilding (Sweden, Germany, France, Holland, Italy). Scotland doesn't because of the Tory-sponsored lie that they could no longer be sustained thus they were destroyed throwing hundreds of thousands of Scots and their communities onto the socio-economic scrapheap.
Just think how much stronger our Service sector would be if Scotland hadn't destroyed her manufacturing base or had her resouces expropriated.
Even if the Poll Tax were equitable, which it wasn't, Guinea-pigging Scotland in such a way was unforgivable. To be treated as politically expedient cannot be forgotten.
The Right to Buy was a good idea but the freezing of those receipts and the consequent freeze on replacing the Public housing stock has ultimately damaged the economy of the UK and made it something of a basket-case. And does this really offset all that they did. I think not.
The Tories presided over one of the most divisive and destructive agendas ever to be implemented in Scotland. They neglected Scotland because they couldn't have cared less for her and instigated her relative destruction out of nothing more than political venality. They were amongst the most corrupt and arrogant Governments ever and promulgated the lie that Scotland was a subsidy Junkie all the while happily taking billions of her resources so as to fund tax cuts for their Middle England cronies.
To have done all this and then to expect for it to be forgotten and ignored is absurd. It is absolutely right that the Tories will forever be dead ducks in Scottish politics and detested by the Scottish people.
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Re: William1957
I've noticed that SNP supporters often have an irrational attachment to old-fashioned industries like fishing, crofting or shipbuilding. A serious risk with independence is that a triumphant nationalist government will divert the oil money into propping up doomed industries, keeping them afloat with tax breaks and subsidies.
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Thomas: Perhaps you should drop out of the politics course and study arithmetic, or logic. No, of course 40% for independence is not a majority, cannot possibly be. If 30% vote for more powers, and another 30% vote for no change, that's 60% against independence.
Even if it's a simple yes/no vote, and the outcome is 40% yes, 35% no, and 25% do not vote (which most authorities would count as a vote for the status quo) 40% can still never be a majority of the electorate.
ps: Does this politics course include listening and considering, before trotting out party lines?
Also, everyone would lose out (not loose - that refers to screws in some cases) if a party were in control which didn't know the numbers that constitute a majority.
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Anaxim:
It is those industries that keep many Scots fed and under a roof.
Just shows how out of touch you are.
I bet you do not even come from Scotland.
Brigadierjohn:
It is a bit late John. My exam is next week and it is partly why I spend time on here nowadays.
Well John, you can shout at the Unionist Parties for dismissing a STV way of voting for the referendum.
It would of been more democratic but because it was a Nationalist who proposed the idea then they quickly had to dismiss it.
And yes I am taught to listen in my class but I am also taught how to protect my arguements and also attack others on theirs.
But that should not be to suprising since all I do is find faults about a Unionists theory and argue with them over it.
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Bluelaw: Permit me to suggest that yours is a very hard left argument. You mention shipbuilding, and its viability. In the late 50s/early 60s a guy called Dan McGarvie, president of the boilermakers' union had the effective last say in every contract awarded to the Clyde or NE England. He decided pay rates and employers had to take on uneconomic jobs or lay off workers, or suffer a strike. One true example (I was there): A hole had to be drilled through a ship's bulkhead, which consisted of wood on one side, steel in the middle and then more wood. A joiner started drilling, but when he struck metal had to go back to his job at the other end of the ship. Then a plater was called to drill through the steel. Then the joiner was recalled to finish the hole. A plumber then pushed a pipe through, and an electrician was called to feed a cable through the pipe. Every man on a different pay scale. It took four men all day to drill a hole.
The economics of the madhouse, insisted upon by unions hell-bent on demarcation, and in some cases on wrecking the economy.
No employers in the world could make money out of it. The Tories simply recognised this and refused any more ruinous subsidies.
Tories have much to answer for, but the unions closed our industries. Margaret Thatcher turned very extreme towards the end and had to be ditched by her party. But you always knew where you stood with her.
Once upon a time our forebears would have cut throats for sixpence, but those were just the times. No use condemning them for ever, eh?
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Thomas: I sincerely hope you pass. I hope in future you will be an SNP candidate (that's a double-edged sword, of course). But one word of advice: take the advanced course before you cross swords with Paxman, or even our Brian!
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Thomas, I think by this stage people are just laughing at you mate.
John and I are telling you this as an absolute fact, if only 40% of the Scottish public say that they want independence, we won't be getting it. I can assure you that the SNP, whose power is only to ask for the government to break up the country, it would be our MPs who decide these things, would have no legitimacy in saying;
"Look, 4/10 people want it, there must be legitimacy in our claim"
I'm not sure what course you're doing, Higher Modern Studies is wonderful for explaining that "STV is more representative but FPTP is more stable" and similar things, but I would have thought they would point out that in order for something to be passed in an Independence referendum you would need more than 50% of the vote. This is patently obvious, you should learn to stop talking once you've lost a debate. Digging yourself further into a hole is not the way out of it.
As to all of those people who attack the tories on Inudstry, what about the SNP who frankly would put thousands of Scots military personell out of a job. Scotland contributes a massively disproportionate amount of the UK armed forces, maybe cos we're hard nuts, maybe cos we're poorer, I don't know why but considering we make up 1/12th of the population yet contribute 3 times as many forces thats a difficult situation to see the SNP dealing with. either we would keep a massively large army, which we would have to kit out as well as we would only get our proportion of the defence equipment. 1 destroyer for example isn't enough to keep the entirity of Scots naval personnell in a job. But don't worry, the SNP who are against foreign wars, would have plenty to do funding a military which, to keep it at its current size, would give us one of the largest per capita expenditures on military of any country in the world. What about Faslane, which currently employs a quarter of the population of West Dumbartonshire. In actual fact this wouldn't be a major problem as under International Law faslane would probably still belong to the UK government regardless of whether Scotland was an independent nation but again, the SNP who want to desimate a local economy.
Or what about the SNP who claim to base our future on oil, a short term resource, that they also at the same time claim to be trying to phase out. They say they want to base our economic future on oil revenues, but also want to go to 100% green energy, thus not using the oil that they're apparently going to live off. Genius plan there guys. Base your coutnries economic future on a short term supply, with no serious rational plans for the long-term, and then stop using the resource that you're claiming is propping up your economy.
What about the EU, the President of whom has said that we will cease to be a member if we ever left and would have to join the end of, whats currently a very long, the queue to re-join. What about the fact that countries such as Spain have openly said that they won't support us joining, in the same way that they won't even recognise Kosovo as a legitimate country let alone allow them EU membership, because of the domestic problems it would cause them with Basque and Catalin. That said Alex Salmond once considered it politically advantageous to throw buse at Tony Blair for rescuing those poor people in Kosovo from genocide. If he doesn't believe in acting even in situations of genocide, what will the unbelievably large Scottish army do with its time?
They're desperate to duplicate the costs of most things, having to set up new departments to deal with all of the things that are currently dealt with under one roof in the UK (costing us yet mroe money) whilst "renting" the rest of the services back from England. What a joke, after we've left the UK and have to "rent" services like the DVLA from the UK, do you really think its going to do anything other than, cost us more!
There are about three thousand things wrong with SNP policy that would screw over Scotland and Scottish people, so don't paint the Tories as some evil enemy, when the SNP advocate doing far worse, at least in the short term. The SNPs justification is that things will get better long term. Thats exactly what the tories said as well, that you have to go through the rough times in order for things to get better. The difference between them and the SNP was that they were right.
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Re: Thomas Porter
Fishing, crofting and shipbuilding together account for no more than 5% of the Scottish economy, and probably much less than that. I'm sorry you'd prefer to have a romantic view of Scotland than a factual one.
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Brigadierjohn:
Thank you John, I am expect to pass quite well.
;-)
And NCA999, can I ask for your first name?
I have a feeling you and I shall be discussing matters alot in the future.
I have repeated my stance that the vote on the referendum will be done under First Past the Post conditions and that will ensure which ever option gains the most votes will be the option Scotland picks.
Attacking the S.N.P. on several fronts now are we?
I will keep it short.
Under the SNP we would have a military of 25,000 with about 2 billion pound budget.
Large for our countries size.
It is also known that we will re-apply for the EU and it is also known that we have a strong case for our application as we are currently a member of the EU now. England would be in the same boat and would also put a strong case forward and since we were members before then they have no real right to deny us a place in the EU since we are members now.
The military would take part in NATO and UN peacekeeping missions.
The SNP have ensured that Scotland generates 50% of her electricity through re-newables by 2020.
This will allow us to export more oil which would make us more wealthy.
And if you talk to those in the Oil Industries and well I am from Aberdeen I can tell you that there is enough oil for almost 100 years. (some factors to talk about)
Anything else you want to complain about the SNP?
You really must learn more facts about why the Union should stay as it is.
The Unionists Parties took a negative role with the SNP and lost the Scottish Elections.
You should learn from their mistakes and paint a better picture for us.
Or were you a MSP who lost their seat to the SNP?
Or are you Wendy Alexander herself?
;-)
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Re: NCA999
I believe that the SNP has said it will increase the size of the army if they get independence. A figure from 2001 was 20,000 soldiers, whilst someone on this board suggested 25,000. They're also going to keep all the bases open, according to their website.
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I'm still amazed that people bear a grudge against the Tories for their refusal to subsidise shipbuilding and mining by folk who couldn't be bothered to show up for work half the time. People who wouldn't allow anybody to be sacked no matter how indolent, superfluous or redundant their 'skills' were.
Retrain? New machinery - you'll be doing somebody out of a job with that new machine. All out lads.
The younger ones wouldn't believe you if I told you that there was something called the 'dock labour scheme'. A hundred years ago docks used to need a million or so men to carry all the goods coming and going into the country off the boats in sacks. Then finally somebody invented the crane. But could we fire these workers? Hell no. They had to be paid to stand around doing nothing while the crane drivers did all the work. Well, it wouldn't be fair on my union members would it?
And these well paid non-jobs were handed down from father to son. Same with the over-manned shipbuilders. You couldn't introduce any new technology because somebody might lose their job. And so, in the end, competing with Germany, Korea and the rest of the world they all lost their jobs.
One out all out eh lads?
And the same mentality still holds in Scotland. When the SNP finally got rid of the tolls on the Forth Road bridge we had some union numpty wanting to know what would happen to his members 'employed' collecting tolls? Errr? Bovvvered? Do I look bovvvered? Ask me if I'm bovvvered? How about the get a real job?
But hey, it's all Margaret Thatchers fault. You think Scottish unions would be thanking her for getting them out of their hellacious 18th century mines and 19th century shipyards thereby increasing their life expectancy. But no.
And now you've had a Labour government and an SNP administration for over 10 years and not a mine or a shipyard has been re-opened. Come on lads - what's stopping you eh?
Do you think President Salmond will re-open a single shipyard? A single deep mine? Look at the Welsh - they knocked back a proposal recently to open an open cast mine. Not interested in mining any more. And neither are the Scots so why do you insist on clinging to your hatred of the people who gave you the opportunity to do something else with your lives?
Really?
I've travelled around Canada and Alaska and there are old mining ghost town all over the shop. The gold/silver/tin/coal/whatever ran out and they just left. They didn't sit there waiting for the government to come and present them with a shiny new job to go with their shiny council house. They just got up and left. And I'm sure their descendents are much the better for it unlike the generations of Celtic and Rangers fans with plenty of tax-sponsored gold jewellery and not a job between them.
Stop harking back to a golden age of tax-subsidised non-job wasterdom and thank the Tories for making it easier for you to do so. The world is your oyster.
Or vote SNP. Or for independence. I really don't care. But stop blaming others for your collective failure to make a success of Scotland. If anything it's the English who should be spitting at the absolute catastrophe Gordon Brown and his coterie of Scottish Labour apparatchiks have reaped on the entire UK.
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Anaxim:
Have you been to Glasgow lately?
Have you any idea the importance of the Shipping Industry to Glasgow?
As soon as the Tories started causing their problems and the decline of the Shipping Industry started this is where you can see the rise in unemployment and other problems that has destroyed Glasgow.
U9461192:
First Minister Salmond has suggested that Scotland turn to their coal mines in the near future. Fact.
An Independent Scotland would halve Corperate Tax that would create a far more competative Scotland.
Companies would flock to Scotland to take advantage of the tax advantage.
And last but not least there is a reason why the Tories lost all their seats in Scotland and I do not want to sit and explain to you why.
But understand that they lost those seats for a reason.
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U9461192: Someone's going to ask, so let me be first - was that the number of your submarine? Only joking!
Seriously, I agree with you, except the bit about bluenoses. I worked all my life and never wore jewels! The rest, I like.
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Thomas, you are really saying that if 60% of the country want to stay part of the UK, and 40% want to leave, we should listen to the 40% over the 60, just because of the way you guys have set up the vote?
You want to talk about negative campaigning, the other result from that big poll was to show that people in Scotland consider Alex Salmond to be deliberately picking fights with the Government rather than working to solve problems in order to try and convince people that the government is deliberately trying not to serve the Scottish people. Alex Salmond is playing a negative game too, but unlike labour who pointed out a lot of the big negatives during a campaign, Alex Salmond is using government to score with negative htis, regardless of the consequences. Personally I consider that tactic to be far more irresponsible.
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NCA999:
Yes I am suggesting that if for example 40% of the public vote for things to stay are they are. 30% for Independence and 30% for More Powers then we should obay the option that gained the most votes. Despite a majority wanting Scotland to have greater responsibility.
And yes Alex Salmond has picked fights with Westminister but I see no problem with that. What I see is a First Minister standing up for Scotland.
And the last First Minister Jack even admitted that he should of picked more fights with Westminister to show the public of Scotland that he was on their side.
Because that is what everyone wants to see. Scottish MSP's and Leaders standing up for Scotland and tackling issues that concern Scotland.
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Thomas_Porter:
'First Minister Salmond has suggested that Scotland turn to their coal mines in the near future. Fact.'
Yeah. But he suggests a lot of things. When does he start? What's stopping him? It can't be planning - he showed who's in charge of that with the Donald Trump thing.
Good luck with that Alex. You'll have to pay the Poles a shed-load of cash to work down your mines because the entire ex-mining community (and their kids and grand-kids) are all on incapacity benefit. That is some industrial disease.
'And last but not least there is a reason why the Tories lost all their seats in Scotland and I do not want to sit and explain to you why.'
They lost their seats because they were whipped up into a state of unhappiness by the Labour party and the unions who figured that the closing of the mines/end of shipbuilding was the opportunity to 'convert' entire communities to Labour for life. And then actually believed they'd done it. Which is why they created a separate parliament, so confident were they that they'd rule Scotland as a thousand year Reich even if the Tories got back in down south.
Bwahahaha. That back-fired a bit didn't it?
Now Scotland, having been whipped up the electorate, 1984-like, into a daily five minute Tory party hate has largely turned it's back on the Tories. And by their own catastrophic incompetence Labour have handed Scotland to the SNP.
Scotland soon wiped the smile of that smug, smarmy incompetent McConnel's face didn't it.
Yep, go ahead Scotland. Get your independence. Cut Corporation Tax. I genuinely believe you'll be a roaring success if you do.
What I want is a party that will halve Corporation Tax for the entire UK. Do you think the SNP would stand in West Sussex?
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Thomas Porter asks:
"Have you any idea the importance of the Shipping Industry to Glasgow?"
Notwithstanding your inability to differentiate between shipping and shipbuilding, I have a fair idea. It's somewhat important to Glasgow, but still nothing to write home about in purely rational terms. Emotionally, it's another story.
17,000 people were employed (directly or indirectly) in the whole of Scotland in shipbuilding in 1996, twelve years ago. No doubt it has diminished since then. Greater Glasgow has a population of nearly two million. As the Americans say, do the math.
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U9461192:
The price for coal is actually rising but since Scotland has no need for the coal right now then we do not need it but in future we may use it.
The Tories and Labour respresented classes back in those days. Labour supported the poor while the Tories supported the wealthy.
Their differences in views lost the Tories their seats because when their polices went wrong it hurt Scotland far more then the more wealthy part of the country.
We shall go for our Independence and if you really did want what Scotland could get you should vote English Democrats.
;-)
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Thomas_Porter
'Because that is what everyone wants to see. Scottish MSP's and Leaders standing up for Scotland and tackling issues that concern Scotland.'
Well he has control of health. When is he going to address the pandemic of 'industrial disease' that has lead to staggering levels of incapacity not only in miners and shipbuilders who haven't done a days work for over twenty years but also in their children and grand children who haven't done a day's work in their life? Really.
When is he going to stand up, point the finger, and tell these lazy spongers to get off their duffs and get a job instead of lounging around their council house bemoaning Thatcher closing the mines.
Oh, he can't. Because their indolence has to be the Tories fault. If he tells them they're a lazy bunch of skivers they won't thank him and they won't vote for him.
What is he going to do to tackle this ingrained culture of wasterdom fostered by 50 years of union pig-headedness and Labour party incompetence?
Throwing more money into schools won't do it. Throwing more money into hospitals won't do it. That's all been tried. He's going to have to tell them straight. Just like Margaret Thatcher had to. And they won't like it and he's too frightened to do it. So Scotland, even after independence, will stagger on under a massive percentage (compared to England) of folk who simply will not work but will gladly take all the incapacity benefit, social housing and smoking/booze related healthcare you want to throw at them.
Good luck with that.
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Anaxim:
One in ten in Glasgow live off some type of benifits.
We need to ensure that there are secure jobs to get these people off the benifits list.
My point is that with a decline in one industry Glasgow has lost vital jobs and what has been created to replace the jobs that was lost in the industry?
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Thomas_Porter
'We shall go for our Independence and if you really did want what Scotland could get you should vote English Democrats.'
No need. Scotland has a much bigger head-start on this independence malarky. You go right ahead. You get your independence, we get rid of Labour. It's a win-win.
I think Alex Salmond should stand against Gordon Brown in Kirkcaldy next time. I'd love to see Gordon bawling like a baby when even his 'safe' seat won't protect him from the righteous ire of then entire UK.
C'mon Alex. Do the decent thing. Let's throw the bum out.
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U9461192:
The UK Government has control of the current Pensions/Benifits.
It is not Salmonds fault that some people make more money unemployed then they can by working.
And I would of thought a better education would actually work.
But I have said this before and I have view where it should be survival of the fittest but then Human Right Groups are touchy about that.
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Union intransigence had as much to do with managerial incompetence than anything else. No wonder at Unions extremism when one considers the ruthless and immoral exploitation of Scotland's working class over the centuries. and the indescribably huge profits made off their backs. Now I don't want to go down the class warfare route. I like many others wish a break from such a destructive past and see independence as a guarantor of that but don't dare, yes, don't dare try to resurrect or revise the Tories and what they inflicted on Scotland and the Scots. And shame on Labour in all its incarnations for never lifting a finger to stop all this.
Thatcher and her ism did nothing for Scotland, for the poor, for women, for children, for the unemployed (apart from increase their numbers). She enriched those who would guarantee her re-election and treated Scotland with utter contempt because, like all Tories, she saw Scotland as a 'Socialist backwater' and therefore a lost cause. Plus ca change when one looks at the reality of Cameron and Boris and the like.
Nationalists IMO are not attached to old industries. I was only making the point that we were sold yet another lie that we could never compete with SE Asian tiger economies when France, Germany and others did just that and continue to do so. I mean, surely looking to our partner and sometimes competitors in the EU contradicts the idea that we're parochial?
As for the MOD. The reality is that all these contracts are now put out to international tender so Scotland has to compete for these contracts like any other country. And the fact is what Scotland receives in defence spnding is but a drop in the ocean compared to the cost to the Scots taxpayers of Trident et al. And IMO there is absolutely no doubt that there is a direct link between the high incidence of poverty in Scotland and the high numbers of Scots in the armed forces. But at independence as citizens of the Commonwealth, and like their Australian and NZ counterparts they are welcome to remain a part of the British military. Scotland as an independent should have a military, just like other small EU countries, in proportion to her size and needs.
I think Scotland, as an independent is well placed to compete globally, to emerge richer and better off in newer industries and, where she can, improve on existing industries. And we have the advantage in that if we set up an oil fund along Norwegian lines then post-oil we can continue to invest in our economy and keep it competitive.
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Lets become independent asap so we can escape the hatred and classist attitudes of U9461192. Who wants someone like them to have any control over our affairs.
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Thomas_Porter
'My point is that with a decline in one industry Glasgow has lost vital jobs and what has been created to replace the jobs that was lost in the industry?'
I'll give you an example of why nobody is in a rush to create jobs in Scotland. Consider the railways. Alex Salmond said he was going to renationalise them but then promptly extended the operators contract beyond the next Parliament. See, Alex Salmond says a lot of things but he's not to be trusted.
The trains are a case in point. The cost of living in Scotland is a fraction of the cost of living in (say) Sussex. But the train driver, the nurses, the firemen, the civil servants all want the same money as if they were living in West Sussex. Alex Salmond has control of health (and could have had control of the railways) he could knock nurses and doctors pay claims into touch and establish Scotland as a low cost place to work. Then the UK taxpayer wouldn't have to subsidise foreign companies like Lexmark to build printers in Dunfermline. Because Lexmark wouldn't have to match these legions of over-paid government drones who insist on matching their pay with their London 'colleagues'.
You think he'll have the guts to do that after independence?
So why would you believe him when he says he's going to halve corporation tax or re-open the deep mines while simultaneously going to 100% green energy. All this while simultaneously rejecting nuclear power and standing by while the Luddites knock back wind turbines on Lewis in case a blind eagle gets batted into the Minch.
The man is serially disingenuous. And while he is a stick to beat Labour and the Tories with I think he's so transparent that you might not be as close to independence as you think.
He's just Jack McConnell with a different coloured rosette. A profoundly disingenuous politician. I think most Scots can see that and if they do go for independence it will not be because Alex Salmond makes a good case but because Labour have made such a catastrophe that anything would be better.
Mind you, with the equally disingenuous Gordon Brown single-handedly destroying the UK economy it'll be a close call.
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We don't want to live in a low wage sweatshop economy because it's immoral, divisive and almost as importantly hasn't worked.
Salmond is trustworthy. What's more, he is encouraging a confidence in Scotland amongst Scots that we can do much better in all areas of life, that we can compete and provide quality in everything we do. We simply need independence and the control of our lives that goes with that to make this more of a reality. Of course where the SNP err they should be challenged and criticised but they have ushered in a new feeling in Scotland and I for one am grateful for it.
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U9461192:
Short answers here.
Look at Ireland and their low tax regime.
That is how Scotland will work with some changes of course.
SNP are on target of ensuring we generate 50% of electricity by 2020. They have not accepted all proposals but 7 have been accepted and currently being constructed.
This will allow us to export more oil and coal is going up in price and will be worth some money to export to in future.
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bluelaw
'but don't dare, yes, don't dare try to resurrect or revise the Tories and what they inflicted on Scotland and the Scots. '
What did they 'inflict'? You collectively didn't want to work down the mines or build ships and so you got your wish. I'd have thought you'd have found it most liberating. Did you feel for the guys who 'lost' their jobs collecting tolls on the Forth Road Bridge?
Why not work it in reverse. Create full employment by having tolls every mile. Cor, think of the number of 'jobs' you could create like that eh? Why not? That's all the shipbuilders or the 'dock labourers' were. Ludicrously over-manned, unnecessary jobs subsidised by the tax-payer. And while I think coal is a vital strategic resource you forget that they weren't poorly paid these miners but still they wouldn't work and often held the entire country hostage because, hey, we just fancy some more money. Give us what we want or we'll turn off all the lights.
It wasn't a rich or poor thing it was sheer greed and hubris on the part of the unions. They turned off poor people's lights too.
I see the same thing in Ireland. Generations brought up to hate the English even though if they have any complaint it would be more correctly directed at the British. Same in Scotland. The English did this, the English did that, aye, them and their empire building, aye, treating us like garbage, aye. Conveniently forgetting that in all these centuries of alleged wrongdoing the Scots and Irish were just as up to their necks. Moreso which is why Scotland and Ireland are relatively unpopulated. They took the opportunity to clear off to Australia, New Zealand and Canada.
And when they get there, instead of telling the truth ie 'It was crap in Scotland/Ireland so I left' Naaaah, where's the kudos in that? Naaah, I was forced to leave by the English. And y'all believe it. It's always somebody else's fault.
It's always English people getting rich on the back of Scottish labour. No Scottish people getting rich on the back of English labour at all. Nope never happened.
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bluelaw
'Salmond is trustworthy.'
Is this panto season? Oh no he isn't!!!!
He's a weasly two-faced disingenuous politician. It's not particularly an insult - so is Gordon Brown, Jack McConnell, David Cameron, Tony Blair, Ken Livingston, George Galloway.
Some choice eh?
'We don't want to live in a low wage sweatshop economy because it's immoral, divisive and almost as importantly hasn't worked.'
So instead we have a situation where nobody works. We make practically nothing except 'services' which we sell to each other in a pyramid of inflating prices. The government prints money, taxes our 'services' and 'employs' millions to do the work of thousands. I'm amazed the whole system of smoke and mirrors lasts at all.
In the meantime Scotland's big hope is to grab the oil and all sit back with your feet up like the Saudis.
Pah. Independence for the Shetland Isles - it is their oil you know. They had no say in becoming part of Scotland.
I think they should have a referendum every five years until they get the 'right' result too. How are you going to feel when the only job Scottish people will be able to get is emptying the ash-trays on the Shetlander's Learjets?
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U9461192:
You are quite offensive.
So far, you implied Scots are lazy and greedy people.
You have a theory that the Irish and Scottish have been brought up to hate the English which I can assure you is not the case.
And I would also suggest that you take a look of British History these past 300 years and you will find out how successful Scots were in the Empire.
(wow a Unionist arguement came in handy)
But I can say this.
You are one person who Nationalists and Unionists despise and I can say that it is also the attitude that I do not want apart of and is why I want Scottish Independence.
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Manufacturing industry wasn't destroyed because the Managerial classes had an attack of conscience and wanted workers to do less demanding, less physically challenging types of work. It was destroyed for narrow political ends.
I have never and would never blame English people for the demise of Scotland's manufacturing base particularly as English manufacturing has been treated little better than its Scottish counterpart. I won't be brow beaten or frightened into mitigating the Tory party's read The English National Party's role in Scotland's relative demise however.
As I said though I want a new start away from the politics of class warfare and blame. I believe only independence within the EU can provide this. You prove that Unionism cannot and is unwilling to establish this break from the past.
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U9461192
You're not very good at this trolling thing are you? But you're right. When Scotland becomes independent we will become a very rich and leisurely nation and if that sends people like you into apoplexy then what better reason for voting independent I say.
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Thomas_Porter
'You are quite offensive.
So far, you implied Scots are lazy and greedy people.'
Well you're going to be even more offended when I point out that your English comprehension is a bit lacking. If you'd properly read what I've written you'll see I'm merely lamenting the wasterdom of the sections of the community that wouldn't do a job when they had one and now won't look for one when they don't have one. This happens in the North of England and Wales too. It's not a uniquely Scottish problem - no need to wrap yourself in the flag.
'And I would also suggest that you take a look of British History these past 300 years and you will find out how successful Scots were in the Empire.'
No, no, no, no - you're breaking from Nationalist Orthodoxy there old chap. The British Empire was an abomination and all the fault of the English. The Scottish people who were present were there only in an heroic capacity as vectors of the rapacious English. Do keep up.
'But I can say this.
You are one person who Nationalists and Unionists despise and I can say that it is also the attitude that I do not want apart of and is why I want Scottish Independence.'
And now you speak for Nationalists and Unionists. I suppose that's one way of making sure you're on the winning side. Two can play at that game. I'm a Nationalist and a Unionist too.
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We don't blame the English for Empire. The Scottish working classes, like their English, Welsh and Irish counterparts had little choice but to forge an Empire. Whilst the logistics of the achievement were or are impressive the subjugation and brutality that went with such a venture was utterly shameful.
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bluelaw
'I believe only independence within the EU can provide this. You prove that Unionism cannot and is unwilling to establish this break from the past.'
Now that is the bit of SNP policy I genuinely don't get. On one hand you say you have no beef with the English per se, after all the North of England took a hammering too. And so they did. It had nothing to do with 'lets put it to the Scots'. It wasn't even 'let's put it to the poor'. In the 1970 and 1980's the shipbuilders and miners and Austin Rover workers weren't 'poor'. They were on a relatively good wage.
No, really, they were. The problem was that they wouldn't work. If Austin Rover unions got to hear the workers at Ford in Dagenham had a pay rise. Tools down lads. We want the same pay rise. But Ford workers were making two or three times as many cars per man as the Austin workers.
So what? Tools down. And if you don't give us what we want we'll have the miners out in sympathy. They could use a rest.
And who was paying for all this? The rich? No. The government - that's you and me from our taxes.
That's why Thatcher 'got away' with it. It wasn't a class war thing any longer. It was sheer power-craziness. Look at Arthur Scargill. Still president for life of the NUM. No need for elections here comrades. Just do as I say.
Anyway, to your point - so you don't hate the English. You just want your independence. Right. With you so far. You don't want to be part of the United Kingdom. Yep, got it. You want to be part of a United Europe. Eh?
So you'll go from having a big white star splashed across a British flag to having a teeny gold star on a European flag.
I could understand if you wanted to be independent like Norway. But leaving the UK just to cosy up to the EU smacks of just sheer spite against the English.
Me, I'm for UK independence. Pulling out of Europe. Leave them to their insane socialist experiment.
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U9461192:
It is the way you written your statement.
"You collectively didn't want to work down the mines or build ships and so you got your wish."
And your theory about the Irish/Scots brought up to hate the English.
Never did you say 'some' Scots etc were brought up to hate the English and refused to work.
You said 'the scots...' and used the word collectively as if it was a team effort.
And Scots did benifit from the Empire. Not the Union. The Empire. The English were more dependent on Scots then but that is a different story.
But not many would be proud of the Empire since we killed thousands and exploited so much.
You have a sterotypical attitude towards Scots. Nationalists do not like it. Either do the Unionists who try and explain we are better together.
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As part of the EU Scotland will control 99% of her taxation as opposed to only 16% as part of the UK.
And joining the EU as an independent will give Scotland a direct say in Europe as well as the ability to directly represent herself and her interests in a way she simply can't do at present.
Also, joining the Euro and a Eurozone (now an economy larger than the US') economy committed to low interest rates is in Scottish interests.
I've tried to list some practical considerations to EU membership. There are also the philisophical considerations such as being a part of a new Europe and working in partnership for a better Europe and indeed world.
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U9461192:
There are inequalities that are not being tackled that make Independence an option but inside Europe.
The Tories would like to reform the relations with the Scots to try and silence Nationalism and stop the bickering from North and South of the Border.
Do you think they shall succeed?
You are Pro-Independence but support the UKIP?
Strange loyalty...
If you can put forward one good arguement on why Scotland should remain in the Union then I shall convert to Unionism.
;-)
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bluelaw
'But you're right. When Scotland becomes independent we will become a very rich and leisurely nation and if that sends people like you into apoplexy then what better reason for voting independent I say.'
If I thought Scottish independence would lead to a rich and leisurely Scotland I wouldn't have sold my house and be leaving next month. Well, that and the weather obviously. It's just cruel.
My fear (genuine) is that Alex Salmond will get what he wants. And he wants only one thing, he doesn't try to hide it, he wants an independent Scotland. He hugs his pillow at night dreaming of a blue and white aircraft , his own little Air-Force One, to whisk him off to EU summits in Belgrade and Warsaw to rub shoulders with his European equals, the president of Lithuania, the president of Belgium.
A bit like we're all told how Gordon Brown has wanted to be PM since the age of eleven. Well that's all very nice Gordon but it's not an honorary title. You do have to make decisions. You do have to make sensible decisions.
Same with Alex. His disingenuity is breathtaking but I understand. His mission is an independent Scotland so he'll say anything to anybody to bring that about. No nuclear power? No certainly not. Not in Scotland. Sustainable energy? Yep no trouble? Re-open the mines? Yeah, sure, whatever.
But one day he'll be like Gordon. They key will fall into his lap and he'll have to deal with the fact that practically the whole of Glasgow is on benefits or employed by the government and he'll have to pay for it somehow. No problem - to hell with 10 dollars a barrel royalty. I'll nationalise the oil. I'll have the lot. I'll take it off these companies and we'll have Scotoil. Just like the Norwegians do.
I'll 'invest' in schools. It's going to be great.
He forgets that the Scottish, after years of subliminal messaging by the SNP (It's oor oil) and Labour and the unions will want their 'cut'.
Just as Labour thought the Scots would always vote Labour Alex thinks the Scots will always vote SNP. Not a chance. As soon as the word gets out about how much oil money is kicking about Labour will be promising voters the earth and Alex will either have to match it or he'll be out of a job.
Fair work for a fair days pay and all that. The massively bloated public sector will strike and strike and strike again until it gets as much of that oil money as it can to spend on Caribbean holidays. And no matter how low you cut Corporation Tax the go-to job will be in the public sector and foreign companies won't be able to compete. Hell, Lexmark couldn't make a go of it even when they were being subsidised 3,000 per worker per year.
And hey, if it get's that good you'll have a flood of millions of returning Scots all wanting their 'cut' too.
Be careful what you wish for.
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Thomas_Porter:
'f you can put forward one good arguement on why Scotland should remain in the Union then I shall convert to Unionism.'
The only thing I can offer is 'If it ain't broke - don't fix it'. So then you have to decide if it's broke. For you it clearly is. For me I'm not bothered either way. As of next month I won't even have a vote.
After the disappointment of 11 years of Labour government (well, more the last eight or nine years) I can see how one would want a smaller electorate where you're more likely to have a common philosophy. But to be honest I now despair of any government. I have entered damage limitation mode because I genuinely think they are serially incompetent. All of them.
So I have sold up. My money is moved to the only guaranteed (up to two million quid) account in the UK - you'll laugh - Northern Rock and I plan to sit on my duff and watch the coming financial implosion as Gordon Brown, who really, really, really wanted to be PM, really, since the age of 11, finds that isn't actually a good reason to get the job. Or be let anywhere near the money either.
Good luck with your independence. If it works out I might come back from time to time. But I'm certainly not going to hang around while you find your feet.
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Like all sensible observers I am wary of idealising anyone. But Salmond has composed himself with an openness and integrity that has won him much admiration in many areas of Scottish and indeed British life. I believe he wants the best for Scotland. I just don't believe he's motiavated by power and avarice and most Scots seem to agree with me.
I can't keep up with your scaremongering nonsense so for now wish you a very good night.
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It's good to know that, according to EastCoastMainline, ex-pat Scots have no place on this blog. Who says? It's interesting too that all the examples referred to as good economies are overseas. Surely there is some contradiction here? Ireland is a good model and close to home; it got of its welfare-state backside 25 years ago. Ireland is booming; Scotland is not. Scotland is the Vietnam of Western Europe, stuck in a trough of low growth because of left-wing ideology. I really don't mind if Scotland goes the road of independence or not, I rather hope it does if only to keep socialism out of England. But telling David Cameron that he is not welcome is a big mistake - he might just take you at your word. If you had any sense you would be voting Tory.
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Again still certain individuals refuse to accept that 41% is more than 40%. This is a superb thought-experiment even by the standards of these boards!
Once again: 41% support for independence (from the poll refered to earlier) does not mean only 41% would vote for it. The 19% undecided category would have to make their mind up or decide not to vote.
This pretence of its still 60% in favour of the union is a nonsense c20% of that group being claimed as unionist either dont know or dont care. Unless you are going to have a heavily rigged 1970s-style referendum such arguments are simply nonsense.
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How can Scotland be stuck in a 'left wing trough' when it's been ruled by the Tories and NuLabour the last 25 years. It's stuck in a trough because it isn't in receipt of its own resources and has little real control over its economy.
David Cameron and the Tories aren't welcome in Scotland because they have virtually no respect for Scotland and her people. To think otherwise is to delude oneself.
I'm an ex-pat Scot. I go and say as I please.
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bluelaw
'How can Scotland be stuck in a 'left wing trough' when it's been ruled by the Tories and NuLabour the last 25 years.'
It's the mentality that's stuck in a trough. You demonstrate it yourself. Aye, Scotland deliberately shafted by the Tories because they have 'no respect'. Quite the opposite. It was the total lack of respect for the entire electorate that brought things to a head with the miners and shipbuilders unions. And it wasn't an exclusively Scottish mentality. It was in the north of England, the midlands and Wales too. Don't be trying to monopolise the pig-headed intransigence of the Scottish shop-stewards. It was a UK-wide phenomenon.
We're going to build ships and mine coal at three times the world price due to our out-dated working practices. And you're all going to suck it up and give us another pay rise or we'll turn out the lights. Again. Like we did last week.
And our 'brothers' in the dock labour scheme will close the ports so you'll starve and be forced to buy crap cars made by our 'brothers' at Austin Rover. If they can be bothered to put in a shift this week.
But it's the Tories who lack respect. For Scotland. If you say so.
Go on. Stick 'Dock Labour Scheme' into google. Educate yourself about who exactly was showing who a lack of respect.
Now it might have been a bit hard getting used to the idea that you couldn't quit school at 16 having spent the entire 11 years prior earning absolutely nothing. Because, hey, the fix was in, you'd get a 'job' next to your dad at Austin Rover only to find that Austin Rover (or the ship-yards or the mines) had been shut down. Don't blame the Tories.
Blame your dad and your uncles and their incompetent, power crazed shop stewards. Blame Arthur Scargill. He's still president of the NUM. No voters to concern him.
Anyway, brilliant, freed from the dark satanic mills of industrialisation an entire generation of the working class oppressed has embraced the educational opportunities handed on a plate and grown up to flee their ancestral bonds and to conquer the world. Andrew Carnegie would be so proud.
Or not. Nope. Thanks to the 'oh woe is me oppressed working class hero' mentality fostered by their ex-miners, ex-dockers, ex-steel workers, ex-union leader and labour politicians the length and breadth of the old industrial UK they've failed to get anywhere at school and sat on their duff waiting for the government to conjure another well-paid job out of fresh air. Which if the government were daft enough to do so they'd promptly call in sick with a bad back for six months.
The lack of respect where it existed was shown by the nationalised industries and their unions.
Wasn't it?
Thank God for Margaret Thatcher.
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Areas in the South and South West of England in constituencies where Conservatives have no guaranteed 'safe seats' will prove to be pivotal at the next General Election, both Labour and Conservatives at Westminster will be prepared yet again to sacrifice Scotland and Scottish voters to appeal to those in these 'must win' Southern constituencies.
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What nonsense. Despite the London-centric media spin these last thirty years the notoriously classist and simply stupid British management is as much to blame for Britain's poor manufacturing performance and the poor industrial relations of the 1970's as Union and worker intransigence. If British managers had been more concerned with investing in industry and labour as opposed to skimming off profits at 2000% of cost then we might still have a viable manufacturing base.
The Tories have no respect for Scotland. This isn't fantasy it was proven time and time again by the implementation of policies which had no regard for the concerns or interests of Scotland and her people. All the while giving her a poor return on her revenues so as to prop up an ignorant Middle England full of the same anti-Scots hatreds you are.
You're the one stuck in the past. I am the one who is advocating a break from it and wish for Scotland to be as socially democratic and progressive as our Danish, Finnish and Norwegian counterparts.
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MontgomeryII:
Man, I never said ex-pat Scots have no place on this blog. I think the high number of ex-pat Scots contributing to this blog is fantastic. I just don't think slights from afar are helpful. Criticisms, fine. But not insults. Insults don't contribute anything.
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Hey guys, don't you think people who go on, and on and ON eventually turn everyone off? Some of you were online all day and half the night, and are back again! Stop and smell the flowers, there's a whole world out there.
Pattymkirkwood: It is possible to have a minority government. That can be rectified easily. But it is quite definitely imposible to have a minority country.
A vote for anything as dramatic and profound as separation from the UK requires, nay demands, absolute majority support. No amount of percentage juggling or question fiddling can change that. It must be beyond argument. It must be by consent. You cannot force it.
Try to live in the same house as reality for a while.
U946...:
you have certainly torpedoed all the myths and nonsense. What you said needed to be said. Harsh but true. If only more of us sought to correct these fantasists.
bluelaw:
Your politics are mired in ancient class wars, which you are determined to continue despite your unconvincing protestations.
Thomas:
You are up too late for a boy with exams approaching!
All:
Isn't it interesting that nobody has said they'll vote Tory? Yet they are the silent beneficiaries of all this bile.
Salmond is the Gatekeeper to Hell. Brown is the dead hand of failure. Cameron watches and learns fast.
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Brigadierjohn:
I am actually a Tory supporter and an SNP supporter.
I am the kind of person who agrees with certain Policies of a Party without being dedicated to one Party.
I dont agree with the NHS/Should be Private
I do not agree with Labours attitude - Tax everything and then redistrubute it
etc etc
But at the end of the day I would end up voting SNP if I could.
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People are too quick to dismiss any chance of a Conservative revival in Scotland. Yes, the Tories were wiped off the political map in 1997 and made almost no recovery in 2001 and 2005, but these were elections where they did badly throughout the whole UK. It's worth remembering that the last General Election that the Tories won, 1992, they won 11 seats in Scotland and their vote actually increased, despite the Poll Tax being fresh in the memory. These events will be irrelevant to the new generation of voters in 2010, in fact most of them wouldnt even have been born.
Look at evidence from other areas where the Tories were wiped out - council seats in Northern England, Welsh MPs and constituency assembly members. With this in mind and a Labour party discredited like no other time since the 80's, I'd expect a modest Tory revival in Scotland.
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DuncanMcA:
You have to keep an open mind that the SNP was not as popular back then.
And Labour have been terrible recently and Conservatives are now the alternative Government.
But in Scotland the SNP are the alternative to Labour.
Hence why SNP are more popular and have received bigger increases in popularity then Conservatives in Scotland.
But David Cameron will have to juggle English and Scottish support.
England would like to be equal with Scotland in ways such as English MP's vote on English matters etc
And David has also spoke of reform in financial matters with Scotland. If they increase the way we are given money then they will loose English support who still suspect that England are subsidising Scotland.
If they decrease the amount of money we receive then the drums for Independence shall start to bang and Alex Salmond will march Scotland out of the United Kingdom.
The Tories on on a mine field one slip and they loose it all.
And if Labour continue to spiral downwards and if the Tories mess up the SNP will be left to make gains.
And then the defence of the Union can not start if the SNP gain more seats in Scotland then the Tories because the cries for Independence would have a larger voice then the Government.
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yep , Brigadier , I do think people who go on and on are a complete turnoff!
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I do not wish to promulgate class warfare. It's the Tories who promulgated class warfare by shifting the entire tax burden to the less well off and increasing VAT amongst other things.
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DisgustedDorothy:
Some, just can not accept facts.
I call them lost causes.
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Brigadierjohn - you are misunderstanding what I said: I am not saying a vote of 41% would be sufficient to bring about independence. I am saying the poll showing 41% for, 40% against and 19% don't know could easily translate in to a majority. I support a simple yes/no question - as the poll asks. However, 41% in that sort of poll does not mean only 41% would vote for independence in the real vote as some have implied above.
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We should not assume that those much trumpeted Naval contracts of last week which remain as yet unsigned would be safe if Conservatives were ever elected into power.
Remember that Malcolm Rifkind is still at large in Kensington and Chelsea; no contracts for the Cyde and the Forth will be safe.
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Has anybody taken into account that David Cemeron could actually be the next Scottish Prime Minister?
Cemeron is a Scottish surname afterall.
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We are so much much more as a nation and people than awaiting the scraps from Westminster's table.
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bluelaw:
'What nonsense. Despite the London-centric media spin these last thirty years the notoriously classist and simply stupid British management is as much to blame for Britain's poor manufacturing performance and the poor industrial relations of the 1970's as Union and worker intransigence. If British managers had been more concerned with investing in industry and labour as opposed to skimming off profits at 2000% of cost then we might still have a viable manufacturing base.'
Yeah, the stupid British management. Those upper class oppressors of the great Scottish proletariat. It was all their fault. S'cuse me but it was not British or English upper class nobs who were the management. It was the British government who were the management. We, the people, owned the shipyards, the mines, British Leyland, British Airways, British Telecom. We were all the management.
And we'd all had enough of being held hostage by these psychotic unions. Did you Google 'Dock Labour Scheme'? Please do. Please, please do. You have been horribly mislead by your parents and/or your hippy liberal education system about the oppression of the workers. Read about it. And the same thing was going on at Austin Rover. They literally called a strike when the management sacked a chap for showing up for work on a production line with a bed-roll.
Basically, it was unfair because they'd never sacked anybody else for sleeping on the night shift. You're victimising our union member. All out. And this attitude was everywhere. Ghost workers, entire night shifts where one chap would clock everybody in and out and the rest would stay tucked up in bed at home.
Management couldn't introduce any new technology because the union Luddites would figure that any increase in efficiency would necessarily cause job losses. So the choice was to bring in a new machine that would cost a bomb, increase efficiency but give the factory a chance of survival or keep the 19th century manning levels and go bust. Hmmm. Not as easy a choice as you'd think for British unions. They'd ideally like you to invest in the expensive new machine AND keep everybody on at massive salary. See the 'Dock Labour Scheme' for how well that worked. But failing that they'd just settle for keeping everybody on. Till the company went bust. Yeah, bloody managers. They went bust just to spite us. You reckon?
'The Tories have no respect for Scotland. This isn't fantasy it was proven time and time again by the implementation of policies which had no regard for the concerns or interests of Scotland and her people.'
Whad'ya mean no respect for Scotland? Shutting shipbuilding and unproductive mines wasn't anti-Scots thing it was an anti-loony-working practices thing. The Tories shut down mines all over the place - in England, Wales and Scotland. What is it with your utter determination to perceive this necessary action as a purely anti-Scots measure. Do you really think the Tory government sat around cabinet giving it 'I say chaps, I'm a bit bored - let's put it the Scots again?'
Really?
'All the while giving her a poor return on her revenues so as to prop up an ignorant Middle England full of the same anti-Scots hatreds you are.''
Yeah. An ignorant middle England full of the same anti-Scots hatreds. You wish. Fact is - and if you ever bothered to get down to middle England you'd know it - that despite the racist invective that typifies your typical SNP voter, your average 'little-Englander' bears nothing but goodwill towards his Scottish cousins. You ask your average English person if he wants an independent England and he'll go 'No, I'm quite happy with the Scots let's keep things as they are'.
This despite your trashing Wembley and Manchester on your last visits. Why do you want the English to return your hate? Would it somehow justify your own malignant hatred?
Look, if you want to abscond with the oil then say so. But don't dress it up as anything other than making off with the goods. The English don't hate you, the English don't 'disrespect you', the English are not a bunch of wealthy upper class nobs lauding it over the Scots. It's all in your head. And Alex Salmond is happy to leave it there. Because he wants to be King Alex.
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Bluelaw:
'do not wish to promulgate class warfare. It's the Tories who promulgated class warfare by shifting the entire tax burden to the less well off and increasing VAT amongst other things.'
Huh? It was the Tories who abolished the 10p tax last year was it? The Tories may be guilty of many things but I sincerely doubt they ever increased taxes on the poorest paid while reducing them on the highest earners.
And as for taxes. Which socialist government put up NI for everybody - tax on income over which you have no say as opposed to VAT which at least for basic foodstuffs you have some say in what you buy and therefore how much tax you pay. This 'socialist' redistributive government has taxed everybody more but has hit the poor hardest just so it can then give them some money back, minus admin costs natch, in their Machivellian tax credit fiasco.
I can see how the SNP might seem attractive faced with such idiocy but at least it highlights that it ain't Tory upper class nobs who are the problem. It is bulging-eyed idealistic incompetent politicians of whichever hue. Although nobody seems to do incompetence quite like Labour.
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Ugh. After years of living in Scotland and waiting to hear someone talk like Brian writes, it's finally got my dander up. The man can't think clearly. He can't write clearly. He plays games with mock-Scots that is close to unintelligible and insults every Scot. Why is he working for the BBC?
Time for a change.
Bye.
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I note you're becoming increasingly hostile.
I grew up in the heart of Middle England. I met many people like you who were in complete denial about their anti-Scottishness.
Maggie propped up the oil, nuclear and farming industries with massive subsidies so why not manufacturing and coal etc? Because it didn't suit her political ends and she wanted to break what she regarded as the socialist back of Britain forever. If you think what she did was ideal then that's up to you. I and the vast majority of Scots don't and I for one would wish to see an alternative vision of good industrial relations expressed in an independent and socially responsible Scotland.
I never said British Management was only populated by Toffs. I am not disputing Union or worker intransigence but I think it has to be viewed in the context of centuries of ruthless exploitation of the people who worked in these industries. I think your arrogant and inhuman attitude towards these people betrays a great deal in this regard.
These industries did not have to be destroyed. They could have been made more profitable with enlightened leadership, the enlightened leadership which presumably France, Germany, Sweden and many others saw in the same period and which we did not.
But as I keep saying, an independent Scotland can escape this endless cycle of accusation and blame. Scotland has the chance to build a more egalitarian and progressive country (as it is already doing) and become a happier neighbour to England into the bargain.
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Bluelaw:
'I note you're becoming increasingly hostile.'
Only in your head.
'I grew up in the heart of Middle England. I met many people like you who were in complete denial about their anti-Scottishness.'
Only in your head.
'Maggie propped up the oil, nuclear and farming industries with massive subsidies '
S'cuse me? I said excuse me? Maggie Thatcher propped up the oil industry? You're a bit off-message there old chap. As any fule no the oil money was stolen from the Scots and used to break the coal miners and shipbuilders.
How can Maggie simultaneously be accused of propping up the oil industry to crush Scottish miners and also 'stealing' Scotlands oil wealth? Seriously? Either North Sea oil made money or it didn't.
'Because it didn't suit her political ends and she wanted to break what she regarded as the socialist back of Britain forever. If you think what she did was ideal then that's up to you.'
Well at least you're now defining it as a battle against the destructive forces of '70's and '80's socialism as opposed to a calculated hate-fest against the Scots.
'I and the vast majority of Scots don't '
That's what psychologists call 'conditioning'. It didn't take you long to get over the Labour 'conditioning' and throw the bums out though did it? And perhaps it won't take too long to get over your anti-English conditioning either.
...I'd love to go on but I'm on a promise.
Have a good night. Think happy thoughts.
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Unfortunately, the previous respondent has chosen to take it upon themselves to answer on behalf of the Scottish nation, which shows no respect for the opinions of their fellow countrymen.
While not a Conservative supporter I am annoyed at the arrogance of those who feel they speak for the whole of Scotland!
Respect starts at home.
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I only purported to represent the opinion that most Scots hated Thatcher and with much evidence but I take your point humanist.
I'm not anti-English at all. I don't see the point of your posts U9461192.
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I read everyones comments up to #116 then gave up because I'm so bored of reading what Thomas_Porter has to say.
I honestly don't think he's capable of having a reasonable debate about anything. I bet if you told him purple is purple he would disagree with you.
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Helenzzz:
Please indicate what points you are unhappy that I have made.
If I am wrong then I will have no problem admitting it.
Are you one of the Unionists that find simply can not defend the Union but instead ignore that points Nationalists make and tell then their wrong?
Even when there is evidence to suggest otherwise?
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Thomas_Porter:
No, I just think you are incapable of having a 'reasonable' debate about anything. Adolph Hitler would have loved you.
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"117. bluelaw wrote:
We are so much much more as a nation and people than awaiting the scraps from Westminster's table"
Yes, your fellow Scots in Westminster have served you well over the past 11 years; they've not only handed you 'scraps', but they've robbed you blind (and the rest of the UK) in taxes; taken us in to a War that has nothing to do with us; totally destroyed our Border Control; kidded on the economy was brilliant, when in fact, we have three quarters of the entire EUs debt on our credit cards - openly encouraged by the great Gordon Brown; and as for crime, well, just watch the national news each day, you'll soon see what I mean
Good old Gordon Brown, Tony Blair, Alistair Darling, John Reid, Des Browne, Ian Alexander, ............. Truly amazing Scotsmen, making the English look bad for what they have caused.
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David cameron wants to be PM for the whole of the UK, of course he does.
Cameron also says he respects the people of Scotland. Brian taylor finds that a strange choice of word. It is a carefully chosen word because it can be extended to 'respect for the will of the Scottish people'
The English conservatives and Cameron are driven by the noblest of political principles--self interest and the man with most to gain from Scottish independence is Cameron. Without Scotland he can be PM for the rest of the UK.
What does he give up if he doesn't have Scotland in the eyes of Cameron and his London based conservatives very little--perhaps two half day trips to Scotland a year. They already equate England with the UK, the Scottish Conservatives are expendable so without Scotland and the traditional support for any party other than conservatives the prospect is greater.
Dare he say this, no, so he must profess his defence of the Union whilst working quietly towards promoting it by proxy. When the Scottish people express their preference for independence Cameron will publically wring his hands and privately dance with glee.
I spend more time in London than I do in Scotland I have a clear view as to how much Scotland features in the thinking of London Conservatives and not a lot would be a wild exaggeration.
So as Alex Salmond enjoyed the support of the Scottish Conservatives to deliver his budget and he will enjoy the support of the English Conservatives to deliver independence.
That independence will come, with SNP support north of the border and conservative support south of the border given a weakened Labour Party, is fairly cerain. The real challenge is on what terms and the only work that Cameron's staff are doing on Scotland is working out those terms. These will not be favourable and Alex salmond will need all the support he can get to negotiate a reasonable settlement.
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Helenzzz:
I am perfectly capable of making sure I display facts to support my arguments. Unlike some.
If you are not happy with that then ignore my posts and stop trying to bring attention to yourself by trying to offend me.
And that Adolf Hitler remark?
You do realise you are talking to sixteen year old and even I am laughing at you because of your immature comments.
But if you would like to start a small debate then please make a point so I can question your theory.
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Sad to see that so many of my fellow Scots still have a chip on their shoulder. I don't suppose there will be much change, still the old chestnuts are thrown up - poll tax, mining, blah, blah, blah
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Chips on Shoulders exist quite often for good reason. In my defence I have been at pains to state my desire for a break from such a destructive past and feel I have outlined a coherent vision and alternative. The oft cited analogy about Scotland becoming a happy neighbour as opposed to a surly lodger by becoming independent couldn't be truer.
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I think this notion of a Tory party delighted at Scotland leaving union is overstated. I have no doubt that rump UK would be forced into constitutional change to accomodate Scotland's departure so that the Uk wasn't a one party state.
It's also the case that Scotland is a valuable asset to the UK and they would be happy to keep it but only as long as Scots do little to defend it from their nefariously motivated interests. I mean, who could blame them for wanting to keep an important asset liike Scotland when its electorate and the policiticans purportedly representing Scotland have been so compliant with their schemes up until now.
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Helenzzz
These Scotsmen you have mentioned have acted in their own political interests. It would be absurd to state that they have acted in Scottish interests especially when one acknowledges the realities of Westminster rule. And the Scots are not as overrepresented at Westminster as many would have it.
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Bluelaw misses the point. The issue with the consevatives isn't about Scotland its about power. The only reason for being in politics is to be in office.
If the calculation is that without Scotland they can have power and with Scotland they will not then they are for independence.
If the judgement is that with Scotland they can still have power then they are for the Union.
The only drive is the pursuit of power.
Now make your judgements. Labour are at rock bottom. Will they recover? Some but not all. Will there be a consevative revival in Scotland? If not , if the Libs and the Nats replace the Labour lost seats then the Conservatives still have the burden of a Scotland that weakens their pusrsuit of power. Hence their preparation for teh independence negotiations.
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I agree with Portcharlotte, David Cameron will win the next UK election and he will wait to see what the level of support for the Conservatives is in Scotand.
When he realises that it is still low, there will be little incentive to hold on to Scotand, as that will only reduce his chances of future election wins due to Labour having more support than the Tories north of the border.
Independance is only a matter of time.
What do you mean I've spelt Independence wrong.
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Blueraw:
"And the Scots are not as overrepresented at Westminster as many would have it."
If you were to weigh their job titles on a scale of say 1 - 10, they definitely are. Example:
Prime Minister - 10 points
Chancellor of the Exchequer - 9 points
Defence Minister - 8 points
Those ranked five and under just do as they are told by numbers 6 - 10.
Now do you understand.
By the way, they are ALL in it for their own
political interests and financial gains, including Alex et al.
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Helenzzz:
How can Scots be over represented at Westminister?
At the end of the day are we all not suppose to be British?
I could bet that if you did not know the Ministers names or what part of Britain they represent then you could not tell the difference between a Scot and English MP.
But I see. It is fine as long as their are not to many Scots who happen to be lucky enough to be offered important roles in Government because at the end of the day we are to incapable of running our own country then to be trusted to run Britain.
David Cameron is part Scottish. Are you now going to say we have had far to many Scottish Prime Ministers?
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Thomas Porter:
One last comment to you, because I really do not like talking to a minor about grown-up topics.
David Cameron is English, he was born and bred in London, England. Although his Father was a Scot, he is direct descendant of William IV, the King of the United Kingdom from 1830 until his death. The King was also born and bred in England.
I suggest you do your homework in future.
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Helenzzz
In it for their own gains I largely agree. Not Scotland's gain which would be and is impossible at Westminster.
Charlotte
I disagree. The Tories will try to hold onto Scotland because Scotland is a valuable asset. This is a definite. What isn't a definite is that the remainder or rump UK will simply concede to never ending Tory rule and won't push for constitutional change once Scotland has left union.
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The fact that so many English people make issue of Scots "running" Westminster just goes to show what a lie the Union is. If we a union of equals then it wouldn't matter. But I agree with many English people on another related matter. It isn't right that Scots Mps should vote on English only legislation and the SNP's refusal to do so marks them as a party of integrity IMO.
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I would agree Scots are 'over-represented' amongst the levers of power at Westminster.
Similarly, we are 'over-represented' in any historical list of innovators, inventors and high achievers who have made a lasting contribution to the world.
The tendency towards disproportionate achievement is just one more of those 'annoying' Scottish traits.
The main obvious difference with Westminster careerists is that they are at the helm of the London-centric UK, steering the path of optimal benefit to Londaon's power sphere, its middle-English voters, and their own career prospects.
Let no-one kid themselves that the interests of Scotland or the Scottish people are served by the priorities of these Westminster 'Scots'.
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Helenzzz:
Ah indeed Cameron was born and raised in England.
I did not deny that. I also knew it already.
But blood is thicker then water in this matter.
Tony Blair all though born in Scotland was eventually sent to be brought up in England but he has been classed as Scottish still. (depite growing up in England)
Why Should David Cameron be any different?
Scots all around world have lived in the USA, Austraila and Canada for years but class themselves as Scottish.
Why should David Cameron be treated any different?
Cameron could never pledge any type of alligence to England without looking over his shoulder for his father.
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I took disgustingdorothy's advice (#111) and shut up for a while. Rejoining, I note that many more of the hitherto silent majority are joining in to rip the Mickey out of such as Thomas, bluelaw and the rest of the SNP glee club.
This never was a forum for serious debate, more a coconut shy with amused fairgoers hurling reason at SNP patsies. Stallholder Alex, however, has stuck them down since it became too easy.
At least the fun base has broadened. Enter the Tories, stage right, and looking dangerous. Switch the attack to the class war, Thatcher, unions. Leave Wendy for another day.
The SNP is becoming comical. No, that's wrong. I mean worrying. Rarely in the history of politics can so much risibile nonsense, such outdated arguments, so many tired old slogans have been put forward in the name of debate.
More than the fags need to go under counter!
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Thomas: Do you show these efforts to your politics teacher? They need some work if, as I suspect, you fancy a career in politics. It's not enough to have beliefs. You have to set them out logically, literately, grammatically and - if in writing - with exemplary spelling.
I am not being patronising - you are clearly a passionate young man who is not getting the necessary guidance. Show your work to your English teacher first.
Please, I am being deadly serious. Conviction politics is a lost art. But you must know how to express these convictions.
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Bluelaw:
I think we can agree that Scots hold the major cabinet positions in the British Government. I think we could also agree that the Labour MPs returned by Scotland have propped up the current Labour Government.
It follows, therefore, that Scotland and Scots have (and have had) a major influence in British politics.
I don't actually think most people were too bothered about this until a few years ago.
What makes English people raise this as an "Issue" is to counter the argument, from people like you, about about how LITTLE influence Scotland and Scots have on British Politics. In other words - it was you that made it an issue.
Now you might argue that these politicians are not working in Scotland's interests. That maybe true, but I wouldn't necessarily expect them to. I would expect them to work for their constituents' interest and for the British interest like all other policiticians elected to the British Government. That makes it a union of equals.
Now I happen to agree with you that MPs representing Scottish constituencies shouldn't vote on English only laws. In fact I'd take it futher and scrap all Scottish MPs and have the constituency MSPs (not the list ones) going down to Westminster a couple of days a week to vote on British laws. I see no reason at all to have two lots of MPs (often different parties) representing the same area - just a waste of tax payers money.
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Brigadierjohn:
Of course John I am slightly better at setting my point if I sat here long enough to write full-blown essays.
But as you said this is not the place for real debate and I quite agree it is a place for different views to be heard and discussed. Short and sweet answers.
The point I tried to make to Helen was that at the end of the day we are British. David Cameron. If you Google their family history is it a history about England? Course not. He is the only person from his family and generation who was born and raised in England.
But to talk about over representation of Scots is wrong.
We have intergrated alot over the decades and David Cameron is the perfect example.
A person who is Leader of the apparent 'English Party' has a Scottish History.
To say Scots are over represented is to say that Scots are over represented in all areas of Politics even in the Conservatives.
We should be judging the person not their Nationality.
A number of SNP main figures were born and raised in England.
But do I talk as if I see that as a problem? No.
I look at the person and what they represent and I agree with them (most of them) and am glad to have them on Scotlands side.
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I don't expect Scottish Mps to work in the interests of Scotland because there's no evidence that they ever have. That's why I think it's erroneous to suggest that Scottish Mps are somehow running Westminster for Scotland's benefit. Even if they wanted to, which as UK centric careerists they wouldn't, they couldn't anyway because the great weight of the system is always ruthlessly in favour of Middle England.
As for influence I think this is highly debateable. Obviously in proportion to Scotland's size Scotland has more Mps but has this really enabled them to act in Scottish interests, or rather, to contradict English interests in the case of Thatcher and many governments before and after. The answer is a resounding no.
They have sought to further "British" interests but I believe this has ever even marginally benefitted Scotland and in the case of fisheries, oil, manufacturing etc etc time and time again Scotland is regarded and has been treated as expendable.
Again, I feel it pertinent to state that the only logical way to end all this bickering is for Scotland to become independent. This way not only can Scottish interests be transparently and fully served but we will never have to concern ourselves or indeed fear government at Westminster whether it's Tory or not. That alone is worth the price of a 'Yes to independence' vote.
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Thomas Porter:
"A number of SNP main figures were born and raised in England."
Which ones?
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"But in Scotland we have an alternative...the SNP."
Wrong - it's Alex Salmond. Perhaps with the exception of Nicola Sturgeon, and at a push Swinney, the rest of the SNP are non-entities and certainly in my case not very good constituency MPs.
The last thing we need is Labour joining up with the SNP.
The Tories won't win many seats, to be honest, and not everyone gets dewy-eyed with the SNP either - look at the recent Graduate Endowment news. Oops. And that is all the SNP's fault.
Annabelle Goldie would be best placed to aim at the target seats in Scotland, rather than expecting a huge rush of votes.
She should also be wary of the SNP, since they do not care who is in power at Westminster, as long as they can cause resentment.
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Thomas Porter:
"......only Blair all though born in Scotland was eventually sent to be brought up in England but he has been classed as Scottish still. (depite growing up in England)..."
He left Scotland when he was 20 years old, to study at Oxford University. 20 sounds pretty grown up to me.
and
".......He [David Camerson] is the only person from his family and generation who was born and raised in England....."
No he isn't. Like I said before, although David Cameron's Father was a Scot, David is direct descendant of William IV, the King of the United Kingdom from 1830 until his death. The King was also born and bred in England. What you actually mean is, David Cameron's Father is a direct descendant of an Englishman.
I can't carry on having a debate with someone who hopes the other person will forget what they've already written; and also ignores history.
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I have been reading Brian's blogs pretty much silently for the past few months, waiting for the dust to settle and also taking note of all the arguments and evidence put forwards by all corners of the media. I am a long standing nationalist but as this issue is such an important one to myself and my fellow countrymen I am fully willing to listen to any and all arguments for and against, and change my mind if necessary. Here are a few observations I have made recently.
1. Despite statements to the contrary, this is an issue which is of increasing importance in people's minds. People are still interested in schools, hospitals, the police, etcetera but you can now firmly add the constitution to that list.
2. I am unlikely ever to vote Tory. I remember Thatcher. I remember life under Thatcher. I realise that her economic improvements were based largely on selling off the family silver (assets previously owned by you and me, the taxpayers) and revenues from North Sea oil. I also find my way of thinking, my principles and my morals largely at odds with Tory supporters, those on this blog included.
3. I am unlikely ever to vote Labour, despite being basically a slightly-left-of-centre type of person. I find them increasingly hard to distinguish from the Tories, and completely void of principle.
4. I support the call for a referendum. The constitutional future of Scotland should be decided by the public, the polls show that the vast majority want this, and to withhold that right is utterly wrong, however you try to dress it up. The referendum should be held after a period of informed debate. My major concern is that the Scottish population will go in to this ill-informed.
5. The outcome of such a referendum is at present impossible to predict.
6. My support for independence has been increasingly confirmed. I have seen no real arguments in favour of a continuation of the Union, and several convincing arguments for independence. Most of the pro-Union arguments fall into the category of FUD (Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt), or a harking back to our Imperial past. Most of the pro-independence ones are based on sound economic or social principles. I dismiss those based on hate or jingoism.
For the record, I am a middle aged resident Scot, university educated , and employed in an oil-related industry.
Just some thoughts from one of the 'silent majority', that's all.
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Ok, a few very short responses.
People keep referencing a "London-centric" government that we have at the moment as being a terrible thing.
Surely an "Edinburgh-centric" government is just as bad for the people in the Highlands and islands. These joke arguments that you people make really are laughable. everyone knows that a government will be more focused to certain areas than others, if you follow your argument to its logical conclusion we should have government as small as humanly possible, living in countries of 2 or 3 people each. The reality is that bigger is better, and so optimum benefit comes from a balance between maximum representation and maximum population size. Not one person has given a reason why Scotland would meet this balance better than Britain does at the moment.
No David Cameron is not, and never will be, for Scottish Independence. You jokers that claim he will see it as advantageous to himself, no he won't. When the Queen comes out and campaigns against Scottish Independence, as is part of her job description to protect the union, I guarantee you that the Tories will not be on the opposite side.
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Both Bluelaw and Helenzzz calim that Scotland is too valuable an asset for the Conservatives to contemplate independence. This is either innocence or naivety. The value of the asset depends on what remains after the independence settlement. I have no doubt, no I know, the consevative view is that they can keep the valuable asset, oil, and we can have independence. I repeat the conservatives are after power and if relinquishing Scotland secures that then Scotland will have independence. But the negotiations will be obscured by issues such as previous joint ownership, investment, security responsiblities jointly and severally held etc etc etc and more that I cannot imagine. So don't think that the assets are safe.
The only solid fact in all of this discussion is that the Conservatives are only after power the wellbeing of Scotland isn't even a secondary consideration
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'Scottish interests' seems to be a nationalist cypher for extravagantly subsidised sunset industries which employ very few people. Scotland's most productive industry is financial services, followed by high-tech manufacturing, yet these are either absent or secondary in nationalist rhetoric.
Perhaps the nationalists find such white collar activities distastefully inauthentic, compared to rugged, hearty occupations such as crofting, fishing or shipbuilding. Never mind the traditional industries require subsidy, whilst the middle class occupations generate real wealth.
Salmond is an economist, yet this doesn't mean anything. The most convincing quack doctors are people with real medical qualifications.
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Helenzzz:
Which SNP were born and raised in England?
Shall I say it in your own words Helen...'I suggest you do your homework.'
And Cameron is an old Scottish Clan.
If David inherited Cameron as a name then a long time ago they must of had relations in Scotland and it has been past on.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Cameron#Background
It also explains that through a female he is related to William IV. Females do not pass on their surnames. Males do.
David is Scottish and English. His family tree would lead to Scots and English.
Over the years families have gained relations from Irish and Scots and of course English and Welsh.
But should we continue with the equal Union...untill Scots appear to be over represented then complain reminding us we are different people?
Does Nationality really make a difference to who you are?
I bet if I did not bring up the 'Cameron Clan' issue the majority of people here would believe that David Cameron to be a full blood Englishman.
Are Scots over represented?
No. Those Scots have a high chance of being related to other Nationalities which would not make them Scots.
(I got muddled up. I think you get my point)
NCA999:
No one has suggested David Cameron would support Scottish Independence.
The Queen is Queen of Scots and would not campaign to defend the Union when it would be also campaigning against her own people.
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Anaxim:
Be quite.
You got it all wrong about the amount Britain pays in tax. (Ignored stealth taxes)
Do you think it is wise to continue when you already embarressed yourself once?
Your not even Scottish. You have no idea exactly what Scottish communities depend on.
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Portcharlotte:
England has no legal authority to claim the oil that lies in Scottish Waters.
There are issues that are already solved. Scotland can not claim the natural resources of another country, England is in the same boat here.
The negociations that are held will also have to include evidence for reasons why you should get this and that.
You can not snap your fingers and demand anything.
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What rot! The Tories or anyone else at Westminster will have zero claim on any resources in Scottish Territorial waters so why not refrain from posting such servile scaremongering rubbish as it is starting to grate.
Salmond and the SNP aren't stuck in the past. Salmond is talking up Scotland's existing and potential economy not harking back to the past. The only reason I have argued about these things is to counter the revisionist Tory nonsense about them being so nice to Scotland and the Scots previously. This is rubbish and a pack of lies.
Of course Cameron wants Scotland on board. He knows that Scotland is a valuable asset to England and the UK. The idea that by getting rid of Scotland the Tories will be in power forever in England and would not face constitutional reform as a doubt is pie in the sky IMO.
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Its not scottish oil, its not english oil, its british oil! Only by working together were we able to exploit it! Why are we the only place in the world where "nationalism" is seen as a good thing?
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Richard_The_Rogue.
Well said Richard_The_Rogue and well done for writing the most sensible comment so far on this blog.
I too am a member of the silent majority and after spending about 30 mins reading through this blog and comments it is clear that people are very passionate about what they believe in. (Not a bad thing as long as respect is shown)
My loyalty to a particular political party will only given if they earn it. At the moment the SNP have earned the right to have my vote and i will vote for them in future so long as they continue to work hard for Scotland.
In the past before i was politcally aware, i was expected to vote Labour no matter what because my father and his fathers father all did. This sort of blind devotion seems to be common place in Scotland until recent times where now the silent majority like me are finally realising how much the Labour and Torries have let down our country. (Then again we always knew Torries were a let down)
As for devolution, the people should have a say no matter what and if a political party blocks its constituents from having a referendum then surely they they deserve not to get a voted for in future elections in return.
I certainly dont have all the facts and figures like many of the individuals commenting on this blog and i may not be the most politcally active/passionate individual. However, i do care about Scotland and its people and now more than ever i am not willing to sit back and watch it be damaged by greedy, incompetent politicians no matter what party they represent.
I only hope the SNP can continue to stand up for Scotland and where possible do even more. If they do this then im sure the people especially the silent majority will see a future as an independant nation.
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The SNP are opportunists and on a short term honey moon. Take the whole FBO issue! Why has our Scottish 'Government' not recognised English and Welsh Football Banning Orders, its devolved! The UK Government recognised Scottish bans across the UK last year. But all the Scottish Government does is blame Westminster for its failure!
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Fife21:
If there was an Independent Scotland then it would be Scotlands oil.
And Britain done nothing. The Companies that drilled for the oil did all the work.
Westminister only taxed the profits.
Grr. Nationalism is what? Because you do not like Nationalism I guess it is the worst thing in the world?
You have insulted thousands of Scots in less then a paragraph.
Nice work.
And if you knew anything about Scottish Nationalism you would realise it is not a radical 'Scots are the Master Race' type of group.
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Thomas Porter claims:
"You got it all wrong about the amount Britain pays in tax. (Ignored stealth taxes)"
No, the 36% figure in 2004 includes all taxes. I refrained from correcting you because the debate has moved on.
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It's not British oil. It's Scottish oil. Just as financial transactions in London are England's thus Scottish territorial resources are Scotland's. And spare us the dewy eyed unionist "anti-nationalist" sentiment. There is nothing wrong at all with believing in putting Scottish interests first. It's normal to believe in this and absurd to think Scottish interests should remain subservient to an illusory greater British good.
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Yes, Scottish taxpayers helped pay for Multinational companies to exploit a Scottish based resource to be used universally for narrow English-based interests. That's British unity for you and Scotland's lot as part of it.
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Apparently the Queen is going to come out a defend the union shortly!?! ... I do hope so, then we can secure a republic all the quicker.
"The SNP are opportunists": guess what, all politicians are - thats their job. They take and make political events to forward their aims (hopefully in what they consider to be the people's interests) and their career's (that they naturally consider to be in the people's interests).
Incidentally, it seems clear this thread deserves to end about now: we have already proven Godwin's law.
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Great post invisible Gordon #161
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Anaxim:
Aye right.
1. Your evidence was four years out of date.
2. Your evidence also mentioned Britain to have one of the fastest rates of Tax in the developed world.
3. To qoute one part of your evidence that actually shows the risk of high taxes in Britain.
"The OECD report comes as British companies have been complaining about higher taxes. The CBI, the employers' body, warned this week that more businesses could leave the UK unless tax rates were cut. HSBC said last week it may consider moving its headquarters from Britain because of higher taxes."
Do you not accept that the increases in Tax over the years are now effecting our economic growth?
Do you now also accept that if Scotland was Independent then Scotland could use the oil reserves to help lower taxes so companies could move from England to Scotland?
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Bluelaw:
'Salmond and the SNP aren't stuck in the past.'
Sure they are. All we ever hear about from you is how the Tories delibrately targetted Scotland because they hate you. Or how the upper class management targeted the hero workers of the Scottish republic. It's like reading 'Animal Farm'.
Or how Labour have let Scotland down. Hey, join the club. They've let England and Wales down too. Let's vote the bums out. Oh, you did.
Good. Now let's get them out of the UK too - the incompetent shower. In fact they wish they were merely incompetent. There are incompetent people the length of the UK looking at this Labour government and cursing them for giving mere incompetence a bad name.
Salmond is talking up Scotland's existing and potential economy not harking back to the past.
Yep. And his proposition is that Scotland declares independence and spends all the oil money on itself. Which at 135 dollars a barrel is a whole bundle of cash. What Salmond overlooks is that on independence he'll have a honeymoon of one or two parliaments after which the socialists will get elected simply by promising to spend the oil money on free jacuzzis and Buckfast fountains. That money will get annihilated. Just as the socialists have annihilated the entire UK economy. Scotlands only hope long-term is that the Tory majority down south will rein in the socialist lunacy that endures more prevalently north of the border.
The only reason I have argued about these things is to counter the revisionist Tory nonsense about them being so nice to Scotland and the Scots previously. This is rubbish and a pack of lies.'
Lies is strong language. It's an honest point of view which you have been forced to at least meet half way with your conceding the point that it was the union intransigence that was at least as much to blame for the closure of the mines and shipyards as any Tory desire to, just for fun, put it to Scotland.
It's not that the Tories were particularly nasty or nice to Scotland. They weren't particularly nasty or nice to England or Wales either. They just did what needed to be done.
I just can't ever get beyond this SNP mentality whose entire political vision is based on their outrage of the sad demise of William Wallace (a French noble) in 'Braveheart'.
That Mel Gibson has a lot to answer for. Look, he's got a chip on his shoulder about the English hence, Braveheart, Gallipoli and The Patriot.
Just because he swallowed the whole anti-English thing in Australia doesn't mean you have to take his films as historical fact and doesn't mean you have to base your whole political outlook on 'Braveheart' or the self-serving stories told by unemployed miners, unemployed shipbuilders and unemployed dockers.
Have you reviewed the dock labour scheme yet?
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Thomas_Porter:
Do you not accept that the increases in Tax over the years are now effecting our economic growth?
Do you now also accept that if Scotland was Independent then Scotland could use the oil reserves to help lower taxes so companies could move from England to Scotland?
I don't think anybody disputes that except for 'I'll_vote_Labour_till_I_die' fanatics. Of which incredibly there remain still several million despite the lessons of the '70's and now the 'naughties'.
The way to deal with this is to make sure you don't lump yourself in with an electorate that is over-represented of the socialist persuasion. So while they can reap untold damage for a few years there won't be a 'rump' of idiocy that will mean it becomes self-perpetuating.
Now, look at the Scottish parliament. Conceived in a bout of conceit by Labour so sure were they that Scotland would vote Labour forever. Right up until Scotland had to look at the smug fizog of McConnell every day telling them what a great fellow he was accepting cheques from Westminster and pissing the money away as fast as he could. Plenty more where that came from.
So naturally, with a smug git like that on TV it was only sensible to put it right up him. But the SNP is rather making the same mistake. They have smug, disingenuous Salmond smarming away on the box every day like a snake-oil salesman and he's not fooling nearly as many people as you'd like to think. Him and McConnell were separated at birth. Salmond thinks the Scots will vote SNP indefinitely and that he'll be able to steer a sensible economic path.
Not a a chance. Labour will dangle all that free oil money under the voters noses and then promptly squander the lot - see Gordon Brown for how that will work.
As for lowering taxes using the oil monney - I thought this one off windfall was going into a sovereign wealth fund to provide for the countries future not pissed away on tax-cutting gimics. Do keep up.
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U9461192:
Salmond and the SNP are not stuck in the past.
The main arguements against the Tories take us back to when they were last in power.
Everyone has a long memory and does not want a repeat. Things have changed though. Attitudes have changed.
Despite what you say about the Scots being lazy etc we never saw what the Tories done to improve Scotland.
At the same time the McCrone report came out did Scotland see a re-investment to replace mining jobs etc?
Did the Scots have anywhere else to go? Or were they being greedy and lazy because it was the last thing they had.
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U9461192:
I do disagree about Salmond and McConnel.
The SNP are campaigning for something more then just plain old Politics.
I think that makes the difference between SNP and Labour.
And SNP hope to copy Irelands low tax model.
It has been successful for Ireland and Ireland does not have oil.
Oil is our main advantage and we have to use our oil resources to speed up Irelands process to fit Scotland.
Our main resources are now Wind and Tidel power and this is our future that the SNP have secured successfully.
And if they actually had control of the Energy Policy then I think they would do alot more now.
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TP asks:
"Do you not accept that the increases in Tax over the years are now effecting our economic growth?
Do you now also accept that if Scotland was Independent then Scotland could use the oil reserves to help lower taxes so companies could move from England to Scotland?"
It's the CBI's role in life to complain about higher taxes. If they were cut, they'd complain it wasn't enough. You'll note that HSBC hasn't left just yet.
If Scotland was independent, it could indeed effect a wealth transfer via tax cuts to companies. When the oil runs out, it will leave companies adapted to unrealistic tax levels, like prehistoric creatures left stranded by a shrinking ocean. Most likely there will be a huge public sector gasping for funds as well.
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I don't share the confidence that Scotland's assets are clear and untouchable and that this aspect is understood and settled. It may well be from a Scottish perspective but I have a sneaky suspicion that this will rear its head again. The reason being is it is not a view shared by your London based conservatives who will be on the other side of the table in any negotiations over independence settlement.
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Thomas_Porter
Our main resources are now Wind and Tidel power and this is our future that the SNP have secured successfully.
Yeah, because under the previous Toriy and Labour Westminster governments they could just shut off the wind and the sea. But now, thanks to the SNP the wind all belongs to Scotland. What exactly do you mean by that?
And if they actually had control of the Energy Policy then I think they would do alot more now.
Like erect some wind farms and tidal barrages? Go ahead. What's stopping you? Why not start with the second Forth crossing? Stick a tidal barrage there. Two for the price of one - a road crossing and free energy.
Why not erect monster wind turbines on the windiest place in Christendom - the Isle of Lewis? Replace the Skye Bridge with a tidal barriers.
What's stopping you?
What aspect of wind and tidal policy do you not have control over? The wind's on, the tides are on, the planning is in your hands. Go on, get started instead of throwing in some canard about Energy Policy not being a devolved power.
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Anaxim:
Indeed. I am not an economist and have no idea how we will fund the gap or how taxes will be arranged for when the oil runs out.
But guessing we are suppose to copy Irelands low tax example then we have to just hope it works out best.
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U9461192:
Scotland has 10% of Europes Tidal potentail and 25% of Wind for generating electricity.
Westminister is not interested in re-newables.
The Energy Policy is reserved for Westminister. Scottish Government can only accept business proposals for building new Wind Farms etc etc
If the Scottish Government did take the lead and order the construction of Wind Farms then they would be breaking the rules of the Government.
They have no authority to make any such move.
It is like Alex Salmond choosing to withdraw Scottish Soldiers from Iraq. He simply does not have the power to do so.
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Why would any Tory Westminster administration risk international arbitration by forcing the issue on what would reasonably be Scottish resources under International law. It wouldn't be in their interests and contradicts the idea that they would be desperate to be shot of Scotland so as to assume everlasting control of rump UK. By the logic proffered in here they would seek a quick deal.
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The SNP propose copying the Norwegian example and creating an oil fund fo future generations. The interest alone currently accruing each year from the Norwegian fund now exceeds revenues from oil. Scotland can emulate this easily and ensure she too has a fund after the oil runs out.
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Anaxim:
When the oil runs out, it will leave companies adapted to unrealistic tax levels, like prehistoric creatures left stranded by a shrinking ocean. Most likely there will be a huge public sector gasping for funds as well.
I wouldn't worry about the companies. It'd be the huge public sector that would have me filling my trousers.
Already Scotland is massively over populated by public servants, Scottish Initiative for this, Scottish Executive for that, Scottish Natural the other.
The total government spending in Scotland runs at 53% of average UK revenues. Now immediately the Nationalists will claim that their oil will easily cover that. Which if they nationalise it like the Saudis did it probably would. But that isn't the point. The point is that compared to their near competitors and assuming the same average income per head then Scotland spends more than half it's money on government employees. Or strikers as they're known in the civilised world.
Government employment is the go-to job in Scotland (outside Aberdeen). And when Alex nationalises the oil - to maximise income, you'll be as under the cosh as you were when the miners held us all to ransom on an annual basis.
So where is Alex's public sector jobs cutting initiative? Nope, doesn't have one. Every single civil servant, nurse, teacher, Scottish this, Scottish that is an exemplary worker and not a penny can be saved nor a function left drop into obscurity. And why?
Because the cheques from London cover everybodies wages so why piss them off? You're going to need their vote for independence. Why even suggest that Scotland is carrying a massive overhead of state drones compared to their potential competitors. The ones bluelaw thinks were all fired out of spite by Maggie. They weren't - they're still here in droves with 'Fife Council' on their overalls.
But if Scotland is ever going to run anything other than a high-tax, oil-subsidised, make-work economy then he'll have to get rid of these massive overheads. Because he's told us he's not going to use the oil for his day-to-day expenses. It's going into a petroleum fund.
This massive overhang of civil servants will have to be paid from regular income from day one. Because you didn't fire them in the run-up. And as for halving Corporation Tax errr. Where's the shortfall going to be made up? How are you going to pay all these nurses, doctors etc the same as their equivalent in Kent or Bucks using tax revenues from the folk working at Nando's in Fife or Xscape in Glasgow? Remember, the oil revenue's going into a 'future fund' not to subsidise day-to-day spending.
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Chip away at the shell and it will finally crumble,it didn,t take long for this blog too reach the conclusion that the defining policy of the conservative,s is a low tax economy,remember that type, that had boom then bust,interest rates at 15%,schools and hospitals failing,3million unemployed,a greedy corupt nation brought too it,s knees by an inept and callous idea that only the wealthy have the right to progression.wake up people! Cameron and co,are the original one trick pony,"get on yours knees and pray, that you dont get fooled again"
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bluelaw:
Are you sure?
I thought we were going for the boast the economy with low taxes strategy.
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Thomas_Porter
If the Scottish Government did take the lead and order the construction of Wind Farms then they would be breaking the rules of the Government.
They have no authority to make any such move.
Complete cop-out. The SNP administration just sat back and watched a massive wind-farm proposal in the Western Isles get knocked back. It was a privately funded initiative, it didn't need the SNP to order any construction.
Whatever bogus objections mass-produced by the professionally concerned Guardian-readers of Islington that lead to this rejection should have been called in, duly considered by the SNP planning committee and then rejected. If they were serious about wind power.
But no. Of course not. Their devotion to wind-power is just a vacuous sop to any wavering green voters out there. The SNP suspects, as do I, that wind-power is only useful when the wind is 'on' which is about 25% of the time. Otherwise you still need something else. Nuclear for example. Luckily Scotland has plenty of nuclear power stations which will figure a lot more prominently than Salmond is letting on in meeting the carbon free commitments of an independent Scotland.
Wind and wave energy is just so much baloney. Just another excuse to beat the breast and wail 'Oh, if only we had more powers, if only we were independent'.
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bluelaw:
The SNP propose copying the Norwegian example and creating an oil fund fo future generations. The interest alone currently accruing each year from the Norwegian fund now exceeds revenues from oil. Scotland can emulate this easily and ensure she too has a fund after the oil runs out.
Yeah. That's going to be some oil fund. It's going to be at least three oil funds by my count.
The one that allows Scotland to overnight assume paying a legion of state-employed functionnaires and incapacity benefit claimants at the same rates as their Kent equivalent.
The second oil fund that's going to go towards cutting Corporation taxes and all manner of other taxes plus paying for the infrastructure to draw in all those English companies that couldn't be bothered moving to Ireland for the last 10 years.
And the third oil fund to invest for future generations.
I bet the Norwegians wish they had special Scottish oil - goes three times as far. Like diesel. Only better.
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The union was contrived to create an empire which is now defunct and so is the need for the union of the crowns.
It is fairly obvious that the pro- unionist are scared of going alone without Scotland to fund its illegal wars and keep the coffers topped up.
The "submarine" keeps firing blank torpedos and they obviously have no idea on energy production or their respective comparative CO2 emmisions.
The last referendum was on Independence was made unachievable by way of the way its rules were set and the lies made about the value of N sea oil revenues.
Westminster is desperate to hang on to us "scroungers" because they know the truth of Scotland's viability as a nation but will not admit it in public.
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bluelaw:
Why would any Tory Westminster administration risk international arbitration by forcing the issue on what would reasonably be Scottish resources under International law. It wouldn't be in their interests and contradicts the idea that they would be desperate to be shot of Scotland so as to assume everlasting control of rump UK. By the logic proffered in here they would seek a quick deal.
It could go either way. Assuming the SNP crafts its question to get the 'right' result which I strongly suspect will be of the form:
Do you want
a) Scottish Independence from the UK
or
b) Your first born child to be killed with an axe
then first off the other parties at the Scottish Parliament have to go along with the whole idea. Which despite Ms Alexander's recent rushes of blood to what passes for her brain is by no means certain.
Then you have to persuade the Scottish electorate that the SNP is not a bunch of xenophobic numpties whose sole notion of independence proceeds from the collected works of Mel Gibson.
But suppose all that happens it's by no means certain that the Westminster government would pay any attention to your vote any more than they paid any attention to that Stagecoach guys vote about promoting homosexuality. ie That's nice. You've had a vote. Jolly good.
We'd better do this properly eh? Since the union was created by mutual consent we'd better see about terminating it by mutual consent. We shall conduct our poll as soon as possible. England will be having its vote in 2100 and Wales in 2150.
And even if they did pay any attention then it's by no means certain they wouldn't string the whole thing out to enable London based oil companies to pump as much as they could in the meantime and remit their Corporation tax to London.
I bet these appeal procedure could get well strung out in the Law Lords, then the European Parliament that the SNP is going to want to join so will have to pretend to exhaust that avenue. Et cetera. Et cetera. You could be talking a decade or two. Meanwhile you'll still have to find the cash to pay all those doctors and nurses and incapacitated ex-shipbuilder's grandchildren.
Or they could just go 'Stuff you Alex, good luck with that crazy bunch of socialist Luddites - keep the oil - you'll be needing that - we're out of here'.
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cynicalHighlander:
The union was contrived to create an empire which is now defunct and so is the need for the union of the crowns.
I think you'll find the union was created because Scotland went bankrupt having pissed away all its money trying to create an empire of its own. The Darien adventure or something was it? England then stepped in and bailed Scotland out. And what heinous terms did England demand?
Not too bad really were they?
In return Scotland agreed to stop acting as a second front for the French and to work together with the English. Freed of this centuries old bickering and bloodletting that was rather distracting the UK was then free to create a vast empire and get filthy rich. Hurray.
It is only relatively recently that the French have managed to incite the weaker-minded to reopen all the old bickering via the EU. 'I know Pierre, let us create a Europe of ze regions, we will keep Scotland but break up England, that should put ze cat amongt ze pigeons eh'.
I can practically guarantee you that the first country to recognise an independence vote will be the country that lost most when Scotland and England United. The French.
And the French will be thanking you in your capacity as an EU member by demanding that all member countries oil be made available at a low fixed price to French farmers.
The last referendum was on Independence was made unachievable by way of the way its rules were set
What? It had to be quorate? Over 50% of the people had to turn out? Not exactly an unreasonable request. And a condition insisted upon by a pro-independence Scot if I remember rightly.
and the lies made about the value of N sea oil revenues.
Westminster is desperate to hang on to us "scroungers" because they know the truth of Scotland's viability as a nation but will not admit it in public.
For a country of five million, with the oil at 135USD a barrel then you should do okay for a while. You'll get a flood of returning Scots, your property will boom in value. You'll be completely unbearable. And then the socialists will take over.
Good luck with that.
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U9461192:
The SNP have accepted enough proposals to ensure Scotland generates 50% of our electricity through re-newables.
It is true that they did reject a large project but just because they want re-newables does not mean that they need to accept every proposal.
And where is your evidence to suggest that the wind is 'on' 25% of the time?
The SNP would not put themselves in the firing line if it is going to come back and bite them.
I would rather have re-newables then expensive nuclear power and nuclear power is not even re-newable. The waste has to be cleared and even Westminister does not do that. There is over 17,000 tonnes of nuclear waste sitting in some warehouse.
Just idiot thought it would be wise to print it out on the paper because they were afraid of terrorists getting a hold of the material.
Doesnt make sense
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Thomas_Porter
The SNP have accepted enough proposals to ensure Scotland generates 50% of our electricity through re-newables.
Where are they then? When they rejected the massive plan on Lewis did they accept another one to take up the slack? Where are they with projects started?
It is true that they did reject a large project but just because they want re-newables does not mean that they need to accept every proposal.
Of course. What possible use would the people of Lewis have for electricity. Let them burn peat. We're going to be independent for God's sake. What more do people want? Jobs?
Do you think they might have had a need for the jobs building turbines. Do you know they have a massive fabrication yard already on-site. Naaaah, let them eat subsidies.
And where is your evidence to suggest that the wind is 'on' 25% of the time?
It might be working at 100% of capacity for 30% of the time of the time. But it ain't 100% of the time or even 90% of the time. So you have to have 100% capacity as backup. And you can't just turn your back-up on and off like a switch (apart from nuclear). These oil, gas and coal plants take a while to get up to speed so you have to keep them running pretty hot even when you don't need them.
I would rather have re-newables then expensive nuclear power and nuclear power is not even re-newable. The waste has to be cleared and even Westminister does not do that. There is over 17,000 tonnes of nuclear waste sitting in some warehouse.
Nuclear power is pretty renewable I believe. And the waste isn't a problem either. You just drill a big hole in one of them uninhabited offshore islands of yours and shove the whole lot into it and cap it off with concrete. Job done.
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Union was not by mutual consent. Most Scots were against it. If it was such a peaceful treaty why was the English Army on the border if it were to 'fail'?
Scotland had a booming economy at the time of Union. it was the Scottish aristoracy that was on its knees and needed bailing out over Darien.
Scotland could afford its current levels of spending, to cut business rates and to invest in a Norwegian style oil fund. That's how large a surplus we are missing out on.
Scottish nationalism is really all about the future. Why people like U9461192 feel the need to insult Scottish aspirations is really all the about the fact they have nothing to offer regarding Scotland remaining in Union.
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The SNP govt had to halt the planned windfarms on lewis because to have built them would have contravened EU laws. I think it's a bit rich for non-Scots residents to lecture the Scots government on this issue when the SNP is years ahead in terms of develping remewables as part of the national energy mix.
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England reneged very quickly on the terms of union.
To suggest France or even Scotland care enough to want to break up England is absurd.
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In recent exchanges the expession 'mutual consent' has replaced my expression of 'negotiation' as the mechanism that will end the Union. Either will suffice. There will be a deal. It is the modern approach. The prospect of being rescued by 'international arbitration' as suggested by bluelaw is fanciful. There needs to be more serious intellectual horsepower applied to this issue than has been displayed in the discussion so far. Tours of how the Union was formed, dreams of international law, expectations of fairness all add confidence to Cameron and his colleagues that in negotiiatons they hold the cards, the opposition is not up to speed. I hope Alex Salmond and his close advisers are more realistic and much better prepared.
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How do they hold the cards? How could they reasonably lay claim to resources in Scottish territorial waters? If they were to would Scotland and Scots govt be expected to just accept it without recourse to international arbitration? When these issues are given proper answers then I will listen to this notin that they hold the cards. The fact is the days of the Tories simply being irritated and thus getting their way are long gone.
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Just as there is no one in science who can prove or disprove the existence of god, there is no one in politics who can predict with certainty how independence might be. But the evidence against god and independence is pretty overwhelming.
If independence arrived tomorrow, based on the arguments presented here, something akin to civil war would break out.
I'm sorry, SNP, but you keep responding with simplistic nonsense to every reasoned rebuttal of your case.
Another subject please, Brian. Something that raises the intellectual bar.
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What rebuttals? The mainstay on here is a load of unsourced quasi ad hom from U9461192 and scaremongering ignorance and a complete lack of justification for union from Unionists.
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Bluelaw: You've taken this to the level of a pub argument, all bluster and bile. I never mentioned U946 - he's obviously hit a raw nerve with you. Anyone who goes against the SNP line is scaremongering or ignorant. Face it, you just don't recognise honest opposition. You chose your username well... Bluelaw is the only law.
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I'm not Scottish but I follow Scottish politics very closely. Irrespective of the independence issue, I think that there is going to be a deal struck between Salmond and Cameron after 2010 in which Holyroyd will get control of most of the reserved matters in return for Scottish MP's not getting votes on purely English issues. Lets face it, Cameron may mean it when he says that he wants to be PM of the whole UK but why would he be sorry to see Scotland with a large number of Labour safe seats go it's own way? Scottish independence means almost perpetual Tory rule in the rest of the UK. If, more likely when Labour lose the next GE they will never again have an overall majority in the House of Commons as the new constitutional settlement will reduce the voting rights of Scottish MP's so Labour would need LD support to get bills on English issues through.
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By now, it must be obvious to all how this forum is 'hijacked' by a handful posters who for whom the clarity, quality, or originality of thought are basically irrelevant - indeed the entire debate is lost in an endless tide of inane and vacuous counter-posting against each other.
That lamentable tendency has plumbed new and shambolic depths here - although perhaps it is only fitting that the subject of the "Scottish" Tories should be characterised by irrelevant, narrow, and self-indulgent drivel.
Brigadierjohn. The last time your type of arguments were in the ascendancy, Britain was still empire-building, and the last coat of paint was being applied to the Titanic.
Despite vainly styling yourself as one of the wiser and more astute contributors, your hopelessly blinkered views and patent fondness for gratuitous mud-slinging have given you away on countless occasions, while your condescending manner is simply a further example of the language by which, throughout generations past, London sought to keep ordinary Scots 'in their place'.
After three hundred years of London rule, last year's breakthrough by the SNP into government was a fantastic achievement against a background of relentlessly negative scaremongering by every adherent of the London-led establishment, and poisonously apocalyptic headlines in the tabloid press.
It is testimony in itself to the vision, positive faith and resilience shown by all those who voted for the politics of hope, and the new Scottish Government.
By contrast, your bumptious pride in taking cheap shots against young Thomas - where most people of your 'maturity' should know better - are quite pathetic - and your portrayal of these inane potshots and snide remarks as blows landed against the SNP, even more so.
If you choose to have tedious ding-dongs with someone who is as yet too young to vote, and you cannot distinguish between his freely-held opinion and SNP policy, that is your miserable problem.
Whereas he, however, shares the vision and determination to bring new opportunities to Scotland and her people, you are not even at the races!
A word or two on the actual thread topic:
Are the Tories relevant or popular in Scotland? No.
Were the inflictions of the previous Tory government so far in the past that we have forgotten their effects and should now concede that they deserve another shot? No.
Does Scotland have any need or appetite for another Tory government? No.
The best and most inspiring government for Scotland is the Scottish Government we only just elected, and which is honouring the deserved trust of the people.
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The SNP govt had to halt the planned windfarms on lewis because to have built them would have contravened EU laws.
A complete cop out again. If it's not Westminsters fault it's the EU's fault. I thought you wanted independence. Why are you content to let the EU tell you what to do when you get so angst-ridden if you feel as though Westminsters telling you what to do?
The Ministers decided to go along with the fantasy that a few windmills would significantly damage some 'Special Protected Area' of peatland. Have you ever been there? I have. It's a bloody great blanket bog. It's not fit for man nor beast. You sink up to your waist every other step in some water-logged hole. If you could stick a few windmills there and make a few quid then that would be a total bonus. They could just as easily decided it wouldn't significantly damage the area. It'll be a cop-out to avoid upsetting the Green vote. Or the EU which for some reason the pro-independence SNP want to have tell them what to do and where to stick their windmills. I'll tell the EU where to stick their windmills. Let me write the letter.
The islanders themselves are desperate for the jobs such a wind farm would bring and the head-start they'd get in developing the technology to roll out across the UK. But they can go hang.
I think it's a bit rich for non-Scots residents to lecture the Scots government on this issue when the SNP is years ahead in terms of develping remewables as part of the national energy mix.
The SNP are just paper generals fighting paper battles and building paper windmills. Oh, and by the way, I do live in Scotland, not that that should stop me from having an opinion on anything. Do you think I'm some out-of-country obsessive who gives a hoot about Scottish independence? Nope. I live here (for the next few weeks anyway) which is why I'm up to speed with the mentality and disingenuity of the SNP. But I'm not hanging around so that you lot can wrap yourself in the flag and play at running your country on my buck.
I see you really do think that your oil goes three times further than Norwegian oil. Enough for a future fund, infrastructure spending and tax cuts. In fact it'll need to go four times further because Norway pumps 3 million barrels a day compared to the two million of the entire UK. And their population is only 4 million compared to Scotlands five million.
The SNP story is that they're not going to plunder the oil for day to day expenses. They're going to invest it in a sovereign wealth fund. Hard to argue with that. A good idea frankly.
But if they (SNP) try that then the socialists will just dangle the carrot of treating the population to a little jam today and before you know it they'll have squandered the lot. You'll have the best paid nurses on the planet but they'll only work every other week.
And while Norway is saving all that money their taxes are 44% as a percentage of GDP compared to the UK at 37% and Scotland at 52%. So if you attempt to save all the oil money you'll have the highest taxes in the world to pay for your legions of government drones and third generation incapacitated.
Something will have to give. Either you won't save your oil money or you'll be taxed to death. Or you'll have to start looking real closely at how many of these government make-weight jobs you want to carry. But nobody from the SNP is flagging that one up. No, it's all about how rich we're going to be and how we're going to invest the oil money.
Yeah. Invest it in high performance motor vehicles like the arabs most likely.
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bluelaw:
The mainstay on here is a load of unsourced quasi ad hom from U9461192
Unsourced quasi ad hom? Shome mishtake shurely. You're the one decrying any opposition as 'lies'. No they're not. They're facts.
You pretend to want Scottish independence to put behind your personal hurt because of the English Tory toffs beastly treatment of Scotland. And when it's pointed out to you that it wasn't the Tories wot did it, it was the entire voting population who'd had enough of the miners and the shipbuilders you start going even further back in history for some justification. Aye, the miners were intransigent but it was them top-hat wearing English toffs from the 19th century that made them do it.
And it's got to be about Scotland. The Tories shut down mines all over the UK but that was just cover presumably for some particular piece of spite they reserved for Scotland. Do you really believe that?
What happened to you as a kid? Did Braveheart come out while you were growing up in Dudley and you felt the urge to come into school one day giving it 'Freedom' at which point you got the same reception my kids would get if they went to school here in Dunfermline and said 'that William Wallace eh? Hang, drawing and quartering was too good for him. Bloody psychopathic killer'.
The SNP goes on (and on and on) about the so-called 'Scottish cringe'. I see no evidence for it. What the SNP really mean when they say England or the Tories gives them no respect is the same as some fatherless Jamaican gangster means when he demands 'respect'. Ie, I've got no respect for you but you'd better show me some respect or I'll beat your teeth out.
It's not lack of respect or lack of esteem that drives the SNP. It's a surfeit of self-esteem and total lack of respect for everybody else. You're full of yourselves and you want the world to know it. Why not write a rap-song about it. That's what the Jamaicans do.
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There is no honest opposition to the SNP and independence. just bluster.
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The Norwegians have had a massive head start because all their revenues have always gone to their Exchequer and not someone elses' as Scotland's have.
Scotland would be in massive surplus with oil so she could maintain current spending levels because this would still be well below the oil defecit, could cut business rates and create an poil fund with the surplus over the present spend. All very simple.
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The best and most inspiring government for Scotland is the Scottish Government we only just elected, and which is honouring the deserved trust of the people.
Yeah. A monstrous majority they achieved. Scotland sure made it's views known eh?
I couldn't disagree that they're doing a reasonable job of redistributing the cheques from Westminster. I was pleased about lifting the tolls. I'd been even more pleased if they'd canned the insane idea of sticking a tram out to the airport and dualling the A90 instead like they said they were going to. Or re-nationalising ScotRail like they said they were going to.
But Alex says a lot of conflicting things to different people.
You know - we're going to invest all the oil money for the future. We're going to halve corporation tax. We're going to attract overseas investment. We're going to build windfarms (as long as our EU masters don't tell us not to). We're going to revitalise fishing (as long as our EU masters don't tell us not to).
Independence. Yes. Go for it. But independence from the UK while toadying to the EU just looks like pure anti-English spite to me. I just wish they'd be more honest about their motives.
Maybe some English kid took the piss out of his accent on a day-trip to London some time. He does seem to have so much hate to give the poor wee man. He really loathes Paxman doesn't he?
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I have arrived at this debate a bit late, but can see it has been lively. One or two contributors not letting facts and truth get in the way of a good argument! :o))
Some specifics:
garethm2
On your gloomy outlook of Tory domination at Westminster - at present, in England alone (i.e. not counting any Scots, Welsh or Irish MPs), Labour has an overall majority of parliamentary seats (about 30 or 40 I think). I think your view seems coloured by the myth that a Scots Labour majority somehow dominates.
On the Conservatives in Scotland
I would say that coservatism is alive and well - I know of nothing more conservative in thinking as devoted Labour party members and voters in West and Central Scotland.
As for the Tory party - I can not see them having any great impact here as a political force as things stand. What might change that would be if Scotland had complete fiscal autonomy - either within or outwith the UK. In such a scenario I can see that their economic stance could attract considerable support as a counter to the more centre-left type economics that are likely to be advocated by the other 3 main parties.
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Scotland would be in massive surplus with oil so she could maintain current spending levels because this would still be well below the oil defecit, could cut business rates and create an poil fund with the surplus over the present spend. All very simple.
Yep. Scotland's magic oil again. Goes four times further than normal oil.
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Dougiedubh: You're an educated man who expresses himself very well. I can admire that, genuinely. Alex Salmond is the same. So is Arthur Scargill. So was Enoch Powell. So were several despots. But I think you are carried away with the exuberance of your own verbosity, as evidenced by your meandering into abuse and rhetoric.
The substance of your comment is an attack on me and my opinions and a reassertion of the views of the SNP. It's a lot of words, but not a single step forward. You are the same as Bluelaw - only YOUR view is relevant. Everyone else is an idiot. It's not the stuff on which to found a nation.
I am now getting a horrible vision of the SNP posters forming the cabinet in a macabre Scottish Dystopia. Will opposition parties be allowed?
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The self importance of some on here is laughable. It's truly sad to think Scotland couldn't be a viable independent state.
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Still no great intellectually coherent argument emerging as to how the independence deal will be struck.
What about this for a scenario.
On one side of the table Alex Salmond representing 5m people on the other David Cameron representing 55m people.
Salmond--we'll have all the oil
Cameron--but that would wreck my economy
Salmond --but bluelaw says its ours and international arbitration will agree
Cameron--oh hadn't thought of that, if bluelaw says so it must be right f, well then fine Ok then I'll need to think how to run my wrecked economy.
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To be honest I have not bothered to read all the new posts but I still fail to see a relative arguement to why the Union should continue.
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Re: # 188. U9461192 -
Are you a genius or what? I absolutely agree with everything you say, not only in Post No. 188, but everything else as well.
I particularly like the following posts:
69, 74, 77, 79, 83, 86, 87, 91, 93, 97, 98, 103, 118, 119, 122, 170, 171, 176, 181, 184, 185, 190, 201, 202, 205, 207
Keep them coming, I haven't enjoyed reading a debate so much for a long time. Especially loved the bit about the French, in post No. 188.
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The Tories won't argue. It willl be a velvet divorce. If it wasn't to be I am sure the UN, EU and US would have something to say.
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Helenzzz:
U9461192 does bring up facts that no one has brought up before.
Their problem is that they hide what they do not know or can give straight answers for in long paragraphs or they become sarcastic.
Example...
If you look at post 190.
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I would like to be in the same euphoric state as bluelaw where everything is straightforward and clear and supported by all institutions in the world. I compare it with my reality, spent mostly in the South including London and also internationally, where bluelaw's clarity never seems to be present. Perhaps he could advise me how to attain his peaceful contentment and assurance of how life is ordered and how to induce it in everyone else. Bluelaw doesn't yet accept that there is more than one party at the table on these issues and their views are quite different. I admire his confidence but fear its misplaced.
Try explaining your position to the international community and see what reaction is forthcoming. This blog debate is talking ourselves hardly a test of the soundness of the propositions and contains elements of delusion.
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portcharlotte:
Scottish Nationalists do not care much for the International Community.
There are matters that are already solved.
Scottish oil reserves for example. How could England claim oil that is in Scottish Waters?
England also has a reputation to keep. If it was seen to be harsh towards Scotland because we voted for Independence then what about the other Nations that Britain recognised?
There are some matters that neither side can discuss because it would have to be negociated between Scottish Gov and Westminister.
But so far I have heard nothing from you that could possibly be an arguement for why Scotland should stay in the Union.
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The Tories won't argue. It willl be a velvet divorce. If it wasn't to be I am sure the UN, EU and US would have something to say.
They might argue. They might not. I'm sure England will get a better deal from the Tories than Blair or Brown. Blair or Brown would probably let you off your share of national debt, PFI and pension liabilities plus throw in a few billion sweetener as well. Just like their comical negotiations with the the EU.
Okay Jacques we'll give you all this money if you agree to think about what we said.
But if the Tories were to dig their heels in what do you seriously think the UN is going to do? Send us a stiff letter like they do to the Sudanese government? Order an invasion of the willing? How will that work with the UK on the security council. And the EU? Yeah, you give Scotland it's independence or we won't take all your EU money off you? Or the US? Scotland isn't Ireland you know. There's no St Andrews Day parade in New York and Boston.
It'll be 'Scotland' - isn't that the place where Willie from The Simpsons comes from?'
And this is assuming the Scots even vote for independence.
I say again that the question will be completely rigged. For sure, it won't be a straight independence YES or NO vote.
There'll be several options of which the least worst will be independence. Or the options will split the 'NO' vote but there'll be only one 'YES' option.
But you know that.
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U9461192 does bring up facts that no one has brought up before.
Their problem is that they hide what they do not know or can give straight answers for in long paragraphs or they become sarcastic.
Example...
If you look at post 190.
Now that you mention it I do use paragraphs.
Paragraphs are a group of related sentences. I can see how that might overwhelm you because a brief review of your contributions suggests you have confused sentences and paragraphs. You don't need to start a new sentence in a new paragraph. Just type a couple of spaces after the full stop. I realise that as a student you'll be told to submit (say) two pages of A4 on any given topic and making each sentence a paragraph will mean more pages for less words. I can give you another hint. Just increase the font size to (say) 16.
Don't worry about your exams. Everybody is getting much cleverer these days. You all get 'A's.
Good luck with your student loan too.
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#210 portcharlotte
Very witty ... enjoyed that post ... thanks.
I suspect the reality in such a scenario would be a bit more mundane. Geography and international convention will determine what belongs to who in event of independence, and the "I've got more folks than you" argument is irrelevant.
If division of the mineral and fishing rights took the route you suggested - what precedent would be set, and where would it all end? Germany and Russia could perhaps go and claim Norway's fishing grounds and oil fields because they have got more people? The USA could claim all rights to the waters off Newfoundland? And what might China take since it has the most people?
Then again, independence need not arrive by way of negotiation. By Westminster rules, a government claims a mandate if it takes the majority of seats - regardless of the share of vote. So if Scotland were to return 30 or more Nationalist MPs, by Westminster rules a mandate to simply declare independence.
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But so far I have heard nothing from you that could possibly be an arguement for why Scotland should stay in the Union.
How about because you voted to stay in. The majority of votes cast in the last Scottish elections were for pro-unionist parties. Avowedly so. The SNP victory was simply a (narrow) slap in the face for Labour.
In order to convert this happy quirk of the election into full independence you'll have to get one of the other main parties to go along with putting forward a vote at all. And even then they'll have to agree the wording of the question.
Your great salvation is in the utter incompetence of the other parties at the Scottish parliament. Any sensible opposition would have simply ganged up to preserve the status quo rather than giving Alex Salmond this platform. So bully for you. But these are the calibre of political minds that you'll be taking into an independent Scotland.
And as I've repeatedly warned you nobody can dangle a squandering carrot under the electorates nose like Labour. Establish an oil fund? Are you mad? When we could nationalise everything and double everybodies wages today?
Seriously, it's why we're leaving. Independence will provide a brief feel-good boom which may last 8 or 10 years and then the structural dead-weight that is socialism will bring the country to its knees. And then, having squandered or committed all that oil money they'll come looking to redistribute the land. Just as they used tax-payers money to gift big privately held estates to the folk who hadn't in several generations managed enough ambition to get up and leave.
You spend all your time with your SNP family and your SNP friends so you assume everybody thinks like you but there is a far bigger rump of socialists out there who will take your dream and squander it.
But I'm out of all that now. I've sold up and we'll be renting daaaarn saaarf for the foreseeable future.
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U9461192:
And what total nonsense.
"How about because you voted to stay in. The majority of votes cast in the last Scottish elections were for pro-unionist parties."
And was that a vote for Scottish Independence?
No. It was a vote for which Party you felt would respresent you better in Government.
And Labour has said that they would support a referendum and the SNP wording is the only legal way that the Scottish Government can put forward that referendum.
And if Scots do win our Independence you can bet that the SNP will have such a tight grip of power for years to come.
Which other Party would be fit to Govern an Independent Scotland?
The SNP have been researching into this for decades and have the vision for the future.
And my friends are not all Nationalists actually and my family are not all Nationalists.
It seems your standard of 'arguements' have became just petty attacks against the Nationalists who post here.
We are just a group of anti-English folk at the end of the day are we not?
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And if Scots do win our Independence you can bet that the SNP will have such a tight grip of power for years to come.
Hahahaha. Just like when Labour created a Scottish parliament they thought they'd keep a grip for decades. Do you think they'd have committed electoral suicide if they had an inkling their incompetence would produce an SNP vote? What did Labour have to gain from creating a Scottish parliament? Seriously? Who were they trying to appease? They were guaranteed a landslide. They didn't need a few SNP MPs to carry the day.
The Nationalist elements in the Labour party perhaps? Nope, pure hubris, thought they were untouchable in Scotland. Thought that although they'd eventually get slung out UK-wide again their socialist paradise of Scotland would go on. It's client state expanding indefinitely into a state of perpetual nirvana.
Don't make the same mistake and assume the SNP are untouchable.
Which other Party would be fit to Govern an Independent Scotland?
Whichever one promises to spend the most oil money on the electorate. Jam today!!!! And SNP policy will have to be changed to match the voters greed or they will be in opposition sooner than you can say 'windfall tax rebates for all Scots'.
It seems your standard of 'arguements' have became just petty attacks against the Nationalists who post here.
But so many are self-deluded about their motivation. You know, I want independence to put the anti-Scottish Tory/toff/upper class years behind us. Oh yeah? You're sure it's not just making off with the oil? Or because the English kids were mean to you at school?
We are just a group of anti-English folk at the end of the day are we not?
You do seem not to have a such a chip on your shoulder re the English. But I don't think you'd deny that a fair percentage of the votes for the SNP will be carefully nurtured by exploiting the latent chippiness of many of your compatriots in seeking spats with Westminster at every occasion. Hell, even 'The Star' was blaming the English police for slapping a few Rangers fans upside the head. The poor wee lambs. Can't even stab the opposition supporters and have a riot without them b'stard English coppers interfering.
FREEDOM!!!!
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I grew up in the SE of England but unlike you I don't feel this a qualification of any kind.
I think what we have here is a certain political insularity and parochialism which thinks that all the rules that apply in international law don't apply in these islands because someone went to Eton and is very confident in debates. I think people think like this because they have been conditioned to think quite ludiscrously that they are forever at the beck and call of the Upper classes and have no real recourse in these matters. It's time many people realised that democracy and the rule of law can be applied in this country and you don't just have to accept your lot. So no Scotland wouldn't just have to accept what Westminster demands and no-one has any right to assume that they 'hold all the cards'.
Aside from all this I don't see LOGICALLY why Westminster would try to force a hard bargain with Scotland. Why risk not only costly protracted legal battles and international scorn by seeming to punish Scotland for leaving the union. It wouldn't be worth it. The UK with Scotland gone would very likely have bigger fish to fry such as maintaining its seat on the UN security council which is already under enormous pressure and having to renegotiate its position within the EU as a reduced power not to mention the huge Constitutional questions Scotland leaving union would create.
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U9461192:
Labour were in power for 8 years in Scotland.
I'd say that is a long time in Politics. I can see the SNP in power after the next elections and if they show Scotland to be successful Independently then I see another victory in future.
And the SNP are untouchable. Have you seen what Alex Salmond are up against? You should watch FMQT
You really think the people of Scotland as greedy and stupid individuals.
The public will be much more interested on how the 'socailism' can last. In the Union they would just live off Westminister.
Independent then they realise they will pay for it all.
And yes please contiue to accuse the SNP and her supporters to be full of anti-English attitudes.
Despite several main figures within the SNP being born and raised in England.
Despite the fact Salmond has promised England that Scotland would be her best buddy.
Despite the fact that I am even offended by your opinion. I am one of the biggest hardcore Nationalists here and I am ashamed of you and your thought of Scottish Nationalists as being anti-English.
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Some facts about Scotland:
58% of Scotland's workforce is in Public Sector - only taking from the economy financially, not contributing.
Per head of the population, there are more employed people taking from the state, in the form of Tax Credits, than those acutally contributing.
1 in 7 of the workforce is on Incapacity Benefit.
Over 46% of people under the age of 30 admit to taking drugs; the ones that take less harmful drugs at present, have a very good chance of progressing on to the next level(s), until they are full-blown junkies just like the rest of them.
Over 30% of Scotland's population will be aged 65 or over in less than seven years.
Alex Salmond is nearly 54 years old, not too old you might say, but he’s also grossly overweight - even his shirts don't fit his neck. Will he be capable of presiding over you for much longer? Oh, I forgot, the wee woman at his side will take over the reigns. Problem sorted
At this rate you probably will need the French to ‘help’ you collect the oil, but don’t be surprised if you are unable to reap the benefits from it. If you’re not too sure what I mean, check out the EUs Common Agricultural Policy.
One final point, when all the oil has gone, do you honestly think the French and the rest of the EU will hang around to take care of you?
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Thomas Porter
".....Despite several main figures within the SNP being born and raised in England....
WHO?
This is my 2nd attempt - I already asked you this question yesterday. Could it be there aren't any?
Just give me names, and none of your long drawn out rubbish. We could all be doing with a break from that!!!
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Helenzzz:
I told you to do your own homework.
The exact words you told me when I questioned you.
Treat others the way you want to be treated.
Now I gave you something to look into so get on with it.
(Note: Nobody help her please)
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Helenzzz:
"If you?re not too sure what I mean, check out the EUs Common Agricultural Policy."
You are behind on your knowledge.
CAP is going under reform and will no longer exist in future.
Quite funny. You seem to get nothing right.
But yes an Independent Scotland shall face some difficult times.
Another reason why I feel it is important Scotland Governs herlself.
Britain has failed. Scotland has a better chance since it shall be run by Scots who know our problems.
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Helenzzz
57% is an erroneous figure because Scotland is not in full receipt of her resources. The real figure is around 38%. Paradoxically, if Scotland were in full receipt of her resources she could move away from state sector dependency more than she is able to at present.
Scotland is no different than any other EU country in facing a demographic problem. If Scotland were independent, like most other EU countries she could form policy to help counter such problems. Instead she is doomed by UK wide policy on immigration.
Disucssing Salmond in those terms is despicable. You should be ashamed.
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Bluelaw:
I agree that Developed Countries have the same Demographic problems.
I do not understand why Developed Countries do not adopt Pro-Natalist policies to protect her future.
Scotland should focus on Pro-Natalist policies in future.
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Thomas Porter:
"(Note: Nobody help her please)"
Believe me when I say this, it is not me that needs help.
And
"Disucssing Salmond in those terms is despicable. You should be ashamed."
I can assure you I am not. Take another look at your 'Leader'.
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Bluelaw:
"57% is an erroneous figure because Scotland is not in full receipt of her resources."
I never mentioned 57% - anywhere
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When I say doomed by UK policy on Immigration I am not against immigration per se just that it's more targetted and better organised than the UK's policy. England is desperate for a squeeze on immigration which is affecting Scotland's ability to get immigrants because they are subject to UK Home Office control. Again, more LOGICAL reasons for independence.
Pro-natalist policies are also a good idea and are I think having some positive effects in the Czech Republic and Germany.
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Fresh off the press. Independent report by Accountancy firm show Scotland would be 4.4 billion pounds in surplus this year if independent.
http://snp.org/node/13817
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You're right. You said 58 not 57% of the workforce work in the public sector. Whatever the figure though it's innacurate.
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Bluelaw:
I grew up in the SE of England but unlike you I don't feel this a qualification of any kind.
I didn't grow up in the SE of England. But I wouldn't hold that against you. Lovely part of the country. Cricket pitches, proper pubs. Lovely.
I think what we have here is a certain political insularity and parochialism which thinks that all the rules that apply in international law don't apply in these islands because someone went to Eton and is very confident in debate
Pure class warrior stuff. Margaret Thatcher didn't go to Eton. Neither did John Major. Neither did William Hague. Or Michael Howard. Mind you, Tony Blair, the 'socialist' went to public school as did half the Labour cabinet. And as did a fair few of the SNP leadership too I bet. It's got nothing to do with class deference. Gordon Brown is despised not because he went to state school but because he is an incompetent fantasist who, despite allegedly being very clever and a history buff, has gone for a full re-run of the 1970's. Borrow and squander. Only this time we didn't even get a motorway network out of the gig.
So Cameron went to Eton? Yep. And a slippery customer if ever I seen one. Wouldn't trust a word he says. Hey, just like state-educated Gordon Brown and Alex Salmond. But what can you do? The alternative is to leave the incompetent Labour party in power to build upon their incompetence to the point of destruction. Which, incidentally, may already have been passed.
Nobody is seriously suggesting Scotland wouldn't eventually come away with the oil. It's just that, politically, delaying the decision by coming up with spurious excuses and threatening to drag the thing out for years would encourage Salmond to shoulder Scotlands share of national debt, PFI etc etc.
Because Salmond will be going in with a full-on 'It's not our debt, we never ran it up' approach. Oh, and we want several bazillion for the loss of oil revenue since 1970. The sort of thing Tony Blair, the socialist's great white hope, would acquiesce to with a regal wave of his hand. At least with Cameron England has some hope of sticking you with your fair share of the overdraft. Not that 60bn here or there is going to make a great deal of difference to the unfolding disaster in the UK.
Thanks Gordon.
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You can write off our share of the debt versus the huge amounts of our oil revenues that never came our way. Fair no?
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Pro-natalist policies are also a good idea and are I think having some positive effects in the Czech Republic and Germany.
Yep. I knew that 'Nationalist' bit was in there for a reason. Got to keep the bloodline pure eh?
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I am not a class warrior. I just think sadly it's inescapably a part of the analysis when discussing politics in the UK.
My point was that people allow themselves to think the normal rules don't apply here and we are some great exception and therefore many are cowed by pomp and circumstance far too readily. This IMO has much to do with just how deeply undemocratic the UK is. Again, independence I hope ushers in an era where Scots feel more empowered, more confident about their lives and situation and don't feel everything is out of their control and that the negative is inevitable. I live in mainland Europe and whatever the continents faults of which there are many people do have a more developed sense of democracy and their role in it IMO than people in the UK.
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You can write off our share of the debt versus the huge amounts of our oil revenues that never came our way. Fair no?
See? That's why there'll be protracted negotiations delaying anybody getting their hands on the Queens oil. Plus, if you don't behave, a sudden resurgence in Shetlander nationalism. One can only speculate who'd be funding it. After all, just like the average Scot never got a vote on the union neither did your average Shetlander get a vote on becoming part of Scotland.
Fair's fair eh?
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I'm not an ethnic or blood nationalist. Family members of mine died fighting Fascism. My family were bombed out in WW2. I am happy to encourage pro-natalist policies amongst white Scots as well as Pakistani or African Scots. The practicability of these policies is that they stop us becoming desperate for immigrants which invariably leads to us ripping off the developing world and botching integration which leads to all sorts of other problems.
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The practicability of these policies is that they stop us becoming desperate for immigrants which invariably leads to us ripping off the developing world
And the truly tragic thing is that we've never been desperate for immigrants. Not in the 1960's and not in the naughties. All we need is for the great 'incapacitated' rump of wasters to put down their Playstation and get a job.
We had 'The Windrush' arriving from the Caribbean to provide bus drivers and do the jobs British workers were 'too good' to do not because we had no unemployed but because we hadn't created enough unemployed. We had all these potential unemployed nationals who'd have made good enough bus-drivers and hospital porters sleeping through double shifts in state industries up and down the country. So we imported a whole bunch of future social problems.
Now we all have to beat our breasts about the record rate of youth stabbings in London. Oh, what could we have done? Well...
Same problem today. All the British wasters slumped in front of 'Trisha' on incapacity benefit while a Pole serves your McDonalds. Your indiginous Brit is good to work at McDonalds or Starbucks. Anyway all them foreigners coming over here, taking all our jobs.....
And who succours this wasterdom mentality then and now? Come on down, the British Labour Party.
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Helenzzz:
Have you found out which SNP members are English born and raised?
Just a suggestion but you could use Google and hope you come across the information.
I never tried it but it might work.
U9461192:
Pro-Natalist policies are used to encourage woman to have children in your country.
Scotland has a declining population, it would be wise to consider for example larger benifits to those who have children to encourage more births.
China has an anti-Natalist policy. (the one child per family)
It has nothing to do with Nationalism. But I will imply my blood is as pure as can be.
;-)
Queens Oil? It is actually under Scottish legistration, the oil reserves. It has nothing to do with the Queen.
Nice to see how your trying to twist it in a way that would allow England a larger part of the reserves.
Unionist play the same game. They should be more wise that it was the same game that cost them the Scottish Elections.
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Off the top of my head: Michael Russell, the SNP's Environment Minister was born and raised in England.
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Scotland will not vote Tory , no way no how.
So why should Scots have to accept a Westminster rule for which they do not vote?
We have an alternative which works for Scotland .
Let my people go!
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#245
"Let my people go"
Are you seriously comparing the 21st Century Scots to the Hebrew slaves in Exodus? Seriously???!!!
I'm frankly flabbergasted, I didn't think this blog could sink any further into hyperbolic nonsense, but it appears I was wrong.
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#246 linds556
I have my doubts; more likely Bloodgood's Out of Darkness album.
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