Fuelling talks
Grangemouth may be Scotland's sole oil refinery but we appear to be experiencing the impact of competition in one respect with regard to the refinery dispute.
Holyrood and Westminster ministers are tripping over each other to offer the most poignant and, they hope, effective appeals for a return to work.
To be fair, sundry ministers are all stressing the need for the two administrations to co-operate in dealing with the practical consequences of the strike. That appears to be happening in practice.
Nonetheless, it seems to this observer that there is a fair degree of healthy competition to show evidence to the public of political concern by UK Labour and Holyrood SNP ministers. They wouldn't be human otherwise.
So what do they, respectively, bring to the table? The UK Government has the statutory responsibility for securing overall energy supplies, including back-up emergency powers should those prove necessary.
The devolved Scottish Government has proximity to the dispute plus a further key factor. Civil service officials in Scotland are, mostly, employed by the Scottish Government. Their political boss is Alex Salmond.
Let me stress again. I am not, repeat not, repeat not, saying that the existence of two rival ministerial teams is causing problems with this dispute.
Quite the contrary.
Rather, political competition is likely to sharpen their edge. Adam Smith would understand.
I'm 
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The strike will be settled, there will be very little disruption and the refinery will be up and running faster than expected (well done the workers). Hopefully the management will be slightly chastened and the staff will be better considered in the future.
Although you have to wonder what type of management it is and why they were allowed to buy such a strategic facility in the first place. A row for another day...
As for the political handling of the dispute? Game, set and match to Alex!
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Notwithstanding the rights or the wrongs in the postions of both parties in this dispute, one would have thought that the UK exchequer losing 25 million a day in lost fuel duty would have a vested interest in quickly sorting it out.
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Quote, Brain Taylor, "Let me stress again. I am not, repeat not, repeat not, saying that the existence of two rival ministerial teams is causing problems with this dispute."
So why say it?
The truth here is that newsmedia have been found guilty of talking up the effects of this dispute. It is journalists like Brian Taylor who have been crying, "PANIC AT PETROL PUMPS" in order to make that very thing happen.
Now we have "SCOTTISH and UK GOVERNMENTS AT LOGGERHEADS" being trailed in the news when there is clearly no justification.
It is no wonder that journalists are held in such contempt by the public.
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Brian
The one thing that anyone could bet their pension on is the fact that had the North Sea pipeline not been effected you would have seen very little involvement from Westminster.
They would have been happy for it to drag on, and they would have then blamed the SNP government.
This has also scorched a few myths about the true value for North Sea Oil.
Is this another of these union dividends we keep hearing about? They waste our money and give us our pocket money back.
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The one memorable thing about this dispute is the revelation of the vast wealth generated from North Sea oil. We all kind of knew that Scotland's oil generated huge taxes but we had forgotten just how much. One pipeline carrying 30% valued at $100 million! We are so generous and altruistic but I must confess not feeling that when unable to get diesel. It was £1.30 anyway.
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My hunch is that the employers conspired to grind down the workers by changing the goal posts ...
Therefore, ... the Onus is on the workers to down tools and withdraw their labour.
Good luck 100% behind you.
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I wish Unite was My union.....as for Governments at loggerheads - I seem to see Gordon Brown doing his usual invisible man act; while Alex Salmond does his utmost.
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Well, well, well. From number 4 item in the news to "Westminster politicians falling over themselves to help". Would it have happened if the SNP were not in power?
Perhaps, but not nearly so quickly methinks. Oh, that and suddenly North Sea oil does have a value after all.
Damn, if the English Treasuary gets to hear of this they will want it all for themselves.
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Interesting that we have not seen or heard from Wendy Alexander during this dispute, you would think given her new found socialist credentials she would have been down there waving the flag with Mick Connarty. At least she hasn't made a fool of herself like Nicol Steven did on the Politics Show on Sunday. Attempting to score feeble political points on the availability of petrol made him look weak and silly, he should leave that to Gordon Brown. I thought Salmond played it right by giving the Westminster ministers their place, a good piece of statesmanship.
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Am I the only one thinking....if we were Independent, wouldn't Eck have signed the papers for Nationalisation about this time last week ?
I'm not going to go into the rights and wrongs of both parties in this dispute, but it is clear that Scotland's Only Refinery is a National Strategic Economic Asset and shouldn't be able to be closed down at the whim of intransigent management or unions.
Even if North Sea Oil has run out come the Glorious Day, whatever oil is left still has to be refined somewhere....
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Over £1 million a day in tax from just this pipe line......
Must thank the strikers for throwing this neat fact up.
So the two pipe lines from the Scottish sector must generate £19 billionish a year in tax revenue ..... over half of the pocket money we get back...
Makes you wonder why Gordonovitch has not acted to cover this up faster especially as it is a Westminster / Scottish Office responsibility. Given the competency of Des Browne and Cairns just as well Wee Eck stood up to the plate otherwise this could have had the making of another Labour shambles.
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The SNP letter writers' club are a disgrace. Why try to seek political advantage in blaming "the other side" while offering no helpful solution. This is the SNP - slogans and cheap rhetoric. But at least they can see the main chance - Labour are politically and intellectually dim. Waffling Wendy should go back to her university debating society, that's her level. The credibility of the political class is already shattered. Now we have the sickening spectacle of two discredited parties trying to claim the high ground. Yeuk!
Perhaps a Tory will break cover and suggest that when national resources are threatened by ruinous disputes, both company and unions should face massive daily fines until they sort it out?
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No, brigadierjohn (#12), what is needed is, as suggested above, nationalization of the refinery, as it is the only one in our country. This is a national asset of crucial importance to the Scottish economy.
Unfortunately, we cannot nationalize it, as we only have devolution rather than independence. Under the present constitutional arrangements the Scottish Government can do very little about the present difficulties or matters arising from them in the short term or the long term.
This episode has shown us how powerless we are without independence and how important and valuable our oil reserves and refining capacity are to us and to the international community. What a revelation it has all been. We owe the Grangemouth refinery workers a debt of gratitude. They have opened our eyes and taught us a valuable lesson.
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If it's true that the tax take from the BP pipeline is £25m per day flowing like the oil, out of Scotland,it's no wonder Gordon Brown wants the strike settled, and doesn't want to discuss money, and Wendy isn't waving a flag on the picket line. No sign of T. Sheridan either who usually appears at these photo opportunities; maybe he couldn't get any petrol to get there. Maybe A. Salmond's got a point about the amount of oil revenue Scotland is being robbed of.
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The Westiminster and Holyrood teams of civil servants are working closely on this. And, poster #8, would have done so no matter who's in power!
What I don't understand is why Mr Salmond is traipsing off to London when Mr Sutton is coming to Scotland?
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The bottom line regarding this dispute is that "final salary" pension schemes are no longer sustainable by employers. - Look at the major UK companies, - how many still offer such a benefit?
However, what politician, either MP or MSP is willing to flag this up while they continue to enjoy guaranteed pensions above that offerred to any other employee?
What needs to be looked at is what level of council tax and national taxation is going to be required in the years ahead to pay the pensions of the ever increasing number of public sector employees and politicians?
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Johnhancock (#13) calls for nationalisation. He must be young! Grangemouth is due £750 million of upgrading. Nationalisation, John, means the taxpayer foots the bill. Remember British Railways, British Steel, the National Coal Board? Daft folk though it was the Government that paid the bills. Pile on the wage claims, start another fiddle, pilfer a bit more - nobody pays! That is nationalisation.
Governments have no money - it's all ours. And I well remember tax rise upon tax rise by Wilson and Callaghan to pay for the wasteful excesses of state ownership. Please don't let the state be Scotland! Can you imagine any of the Holyrood gliteratti managing a business? Most of them have never had a real job in their lives.
It's tough on workers, I really do know. In my time I've helped organise strikes, I've held out the begging bowl in bingo halls and at factory gates looking for support. I've marched to Westminster to meet Tony Benn. And I still ended up on the dole.
It's not the answer. The parties must settle, under extreme punitive pressure if necessary.
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Yes Brian,that is a good point,just who? has the political collective response to this urgent matter,it,s clear they(the politicians)want a speedy end to this dispute,but who? exactly has the crowning influence,to see that justice and honour is done,to a workforce that is clearly in the right: and by reason, that if this is a political opportunity,then the politician,s should stand by the people and for the people.....so what political party will tell Ineos,to clean up their act and get out of the murky water.
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It's ridiculous to suggest that the SNP would have the slightest intent of nationalising something like an oil refinery. What sort of message would that send to the businesspeople they've tried to woo with the 'Scotland open for business' line?
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The SNP "groupies" just don't get it - the most important thing of all here is that Unite has a team of Union members who deserve medals - they care about the future of pensions. Most importantly - not just their own pension but for those who follow in their footsteps.. Europeans can teach us a thing or two about pensions. Unite members are to be congratulated and if they come out on strike again then we should all be there shoulder to shoulder and support them - just hold on to the thought that the Chairman of this company was said by the Sunday Times to be worth over £3.3. billion - if the Grangement plant needs new investment then it should not be on the back of the workers. With Oil prices per barrel at historic levels it really is a travesty that the pension funds should be queried. Alex Salmond should give up his second salary that he has taken for the past year for just signing the visitors book seven times and give the money to the Unite Strike Fund
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Everybody is talking about the striking Ineos workers, it is much more serious than the pensions issue. Ineos have paid off contract staff at the site since the strike was announced and have also cancelled some Project work, contractors at the site who have been retained have been told to stay away until Wednesday.
The Media aren't reporting this side of things which will effect much more than the 1200 Ineos staff.
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Come on Brian, as a Dundonian you should know Grangemouth isn't Scotlands only refinery! When I lived in Ellengowen we looked right over the Nynas refinery, true I'm not sure if it produces petrol/diesel or not, and it's a small operation compared to the Mouth. Even so the BBC news showed an icon for it when all the UK's refinerys were shown.
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I beg to differ that Adam Smith would accept government intervention. Please correct me, but wasn't Smith into free market economics not goverment propping up businesses and keeping union workers happy?
scotstoungirl
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The Nats should be careful not to overstate the importance of the Forties pipeline. It has a capacity of about 1.2mbpd - and used to run at this level as recently as 5 years ago. Nowadays it handles 700,000 bpd and this figure is declining rapidly. At some point in the future it will become an irrelevance. In fact, the Grangemouth refinery is now set up to accept imported West Africa crude, brought onshore at Finnart on Loch Long. The refinery can operate quite happily without FPS oil.
However, watch out for BP selling FPS at some point, in the same way they have sold Forties and Grangemouth. The real worry will be if it falls into the hands of another venture capitalist.
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re 23
Adam Smith and the oil market are uneasy bedfellows. OPEC are refusing to release more oil to keep the price down, whilst Shell and BP made £7bn profits in three months. Smith said
"The monopolists, by keeping the market constantly understocked, by never fully supplying the effectual demand, sell their commo-dities much above the natural price."
There is no such thing as a truly free market - its a total illusion. The two most protectionist government's in the world? The US and the EU. Who want everyone else but them to liberalise.
And we're not really talking about government intervention - more about government posturing. They have to pretend to be in charge here - even though power is concentrated in board rooms not cabinet rooms.
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Brigadierjohn (#12), as I indicated, the national asset the future ownership of which ought to be reviewed, is a particular case: the only oil refinery in Scotland.
Interruption of the oil supply from the North Sea as a result of its temporary closure has caused not only a degree of disruption but also, more importantly, upward pressure on the price of crude oil on the international markets. This in turn will cause other prices to rise in due course, including not least home utility bills, which are already excruciatingly burdensome for the low-paid and pensioners. For the sake of our economy the flow of oil supplies should not be allowed to be so vulnerable to interruption.
To suggest that there might be merit in giving consideration to acquiring control over a pivotally important national asset is not the same as advocating widespread nationalization throughout the whole economy.
You may choose to go off at a tangent to no useful purpose, but I am old enough to know better than to follow you.
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Nationalisation, but only in "particular" cases? johnhancock (#27) is clutching at straws. What about gas and electricity production? Vital enough? Particular enough? I won't get into an argument about how old we both are (I'm 64) but I do remember that nationalised industries were particularly (that word again) prone to strikes. Anything backed by a Government cheque book is fair game to the trade union barons. Most of the old wreckers, bizarrely, are now real barons.
Greedy private business has killed the golden goose. Look at banking. But nationalisation is still a backward step.
Once upon a time everyone believed in God, respected the royal family, trusted the government, and would stake their lives on the word of a doctor, lawyer or bank manager. Once upon a time state control seemed a desirable option...
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According to the information that has flowed out of Westminster the Oil bonanza that we Scots have been allowing Westminster to plunder and waste, our Oil is actually worth 27.6 billion if we include the value of the asset to the economy and the exchequor.
Now combine that with Scotlands total tax contributions and we have a total economy worth 72.6 billion. Strange how even more Westminster lies are now being uncovered.
It really is Time for Scotland to take 100% control of its own assets and future. The brigadier harks back to a very different world with a panging for the Raj and the order of things and people in Society. You know the one where the peasants tipped their hats to the self appointed elite, who prospered at the expense of the majority.
Those days are past now, and in the past they must remain, for we can rise now and be a nation again.
If one doesnt Vote for Scottish Independance, it can only be put down to either fear or that they have much to loose. I think Westminster and the spongers in London qualify for both excuses.
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I agree with johnhancock76. If it is all right for the UK government to nationalize in a particular case for a particular reason concerning the global economy, i.e. the Northern Rock bank without nationalizing the whole banking sector, then it follows as night follows day that consideration could reasonably be given to doing the same or something similar in the case of the Grangemouth oil refinery.
Whereas the UK government, however, may well not consider it to be in the UK's interest to take the only oil refinery in Scotland into public ownership, a government of an independent Scotland might well take a different view.
Scotland urgently needs independence so that decisions in the Scottish national interest can be taken by a government possessing the full range of powers normally associated with a national government. Without independence we can only look on and McChatter among ourselves to no particular purpose while others take our decisions for us.
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As RichardPritchard points out, the UK government has recently nationalized a particular business, the Northern Rock bank, for the sake of protecting the banking sector and the wider economy.
Just as banks must function effectively so that the free-enterprise economy in which we live and breathe also thrives, so oil must flow freely. If there is insufficient oil to oil the wheels of the economy, i.e. if the demand for it exceeds supply, up goes the price of it. If the price of crude oil goes up, as it has done because of the Grangemouth disruption, inflationary pressures increase in the economy overall.
Devolution does not allow the Scottish Government to get anywhere near protecting the Scottish national interest. When devolution came to Scotland, the economic levers were left behind in London. The Grangemouth affair has demonstrated how powerless we are without those levers and how urgently we need to acquire them.
Whether or not we should choose to use them to nationalize in a particular case is merely hypothetical under the present constitutional arrangements. The point is that we do not have that choice but have it within our power to acquire it.
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Why would nationalisation of Grangemouth be the solution to anything? Historically, nationalised industries have been every bit as bad as, if not worse than the private sector when it comes to industrial action.
British Rail
British Leyland
The miners
Need I go on?
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I really despair. I can see our wee country sinking into the oblivion of independence on a raft of rhetoric, floating on a sea of ignorance. Hello, Botswana - can you advise us who's giving out international aid at the moment?
Comparing Northern Rock with Grangemouth is ridiculous, either in principle or intent. The bank action was to prevent tens of thousands of ordinary people losing their money, in the absence of a suitable bidder to take on the debt. It was a last resort. Grangemouth is a viable business. If it fails we simply turn to different sources for fuel. Expensive? Not as dear as compensating the present owner of the refinery. Or are we talking of a Mugabe-style grab of assets?
I'm sorry, you naive Nats, but if you want to be world players there's a whole lot more to it than dressing your emotions in kilts and dancing highland flings around problems.
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The EU wouldn't look kindly on nationalisation of 'strategic assets', especially something like an oil refinery. What happened to 'independence in an interdependent world'? Some of the comments here reek of protectionism and autarky.
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I really despair when I encounter incivility, as one does so often from intemperate unionists who find to their horror that others simply will not accept their point of view.
Brigadierjohn, your very selective and rather insulting emotional response to the thoughtful autonomist contributions indicates that you should perhaps try reading more carefully what others write before attempting to respond to it.
You have apparently failed to grasp the main point which was being made, which is essentially that with independence a whole range of options are available to a government which under devolution are simply not available. Selective localized nationalization, as practised by the present UK government, is but one example of this.
The question of whether or not nationalization should be exercised in the case under discussion is a different matter and indeed is academic if one assumes that the UK government, which is the only government in the UK which may take anything into public ownership, is not interested in exercising that option in this instance.
A few autonomists may favour the exercise of such an option in some circumstances. Most do not, so far as I am aware. Unionists, of course, differ on a whole range of issues.
For guidance on the policies that an independent Scottish government would be likely to put into effect a visit to the Scottish National Party's admirable website (www.snp.org) should prove instructive.
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I suspected that it would be only a matter of time before brigadierjohn threw his toys out of the pram.
Lamentably, the approach of many unionists to the constitutional debate is sadly reminiscent of what was encountered by autonomists in the 1970s. One finds so often that they end up spluttering with exasperation because their provincial "wee country" world view is not shared by so many around them and so proceed to denigrate those others.
What is supremely naive, it seems to me, is to imagine that in the present day anything very much is to be gained by sliding into the familiar old 1970s hysterical unionist "nat-bashing" rant. Really, brigadierjohn, for a 64-year-old gent is this dignified? It is hardly persuasive.
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I apologise if my words appear uncivil. Of course I respect the right of Nationalists to pursue their goals and campaign forcefully. But independence is not the absolute answer to every problem in the world. You didn't say that? Every time there's an issue, the SNP and supporters begin... "A Scottish Government would...."
The old Communists used to talk about "a democracy of the committed." They meant only people who agreed with them should have the vote. Dissent was a mental illness. We uncommitted (and I don't mean to an asylum) laugh out loud when we hear every single day that all our problems would end with independence. We'd change this law, ban that, finance this. Listen, the laws of economics don't change in response to wish lists.
Grangemouth seems to be settling down. So what's next on the opportunist reactionary agenda?
One other thing: is "nationalization" with an American "zee" some kind of code among SNP supporters?
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Anaxim, independent countries do actually protect their economic infrastructure. EU member states such as France are certainly not slow to do so.
Independence within an independent world is not incompatible with that.
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CORRECTION:
Anaxim, independent countries do actually protect their economic infrastructure. EU member states such as France are certainly not slow to do so.
Independence within an inderpendent world is not incompatible with that.
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Are Patrick Henry and Richard Pritchard the same person? Suddenly "autonomist" appears in texts. Don't they (he) mean "automatons?" I may be a lippy unionist, but I'm not wound up by Alex Salmond every morning.
Clearly independence is not an issue for argument or debate. It is holy writ, fundamentalist. If you don't believe you are a pariah, liable to stoning.
Anyway, I've got the dishes to wash before I play with my toys. Nat-bashing can wait.
ps: Explain #38 and #39, please. Is Johnhancock also part of a trinity? Don't criticise me again Patrick/Henry/John until you explain who you really are.
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Exclusive! Shock! Horror! Gotcha!
SNP SCAM EXPOSED!
You read it here first, folks. The "plethora" of SNP letters to blogs and newspapers are all from the same source.
After 42 years in journalism, I recognise familiar writing styles easily. Few have the same grammar and cadence, fewer still make the same spelling mistakes, and even fewer introduce the same eccentric choice of words as others. But when one user of a false name forgets who he is and uses another false name to correct himself, (posts 38, 39) the cat is out of the bag. The silence from "Patrick" and "Henry" and John" is suddenly total. There are a few other suspects (see above) but three-in-one is enough to prove the point.
So, SNP, who DOES write this drivel? Is it party HQ? A misguided supporter? Or maybe it's a clever rival trying to make you all look daft? Very successfully too!
Come on, don't be shy. Tell us!
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Pritchardhancock:
"Anaxim, independent countries do actually protect their economic infrastructure. EU member states such as France are certainly not slow to do so."
France is not typical of the EU (and even its corporatism is dwindling). The EU as a whole is quite capitalistic, and nationalising companies for 'strategic reasons' is against EU rules.
Apart from the potential conflict with the EU, protectionist, statist economics would make Scotland a terrible place to live. That an independent Scotland could pursue such policies is an argument against independence.
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My thanks to RP for correcting my typing mistake.
Anaxim, I doubt whether the French will ever allow their government to neglect the economic infrastructure of the country or to fail to promote the national interest irrespective of constraints imposed by the EU. It is not in their nature to do so.
As for Scotland, the policies which might be pursued by the Scottish Government after independence would derive from post-independence elections in which a number of parties would compete for power. Whether the present independence parties or other parties would be elected is, of course, impossible to predict.
One should trust the people to elect the government of their country. That is the democratic way.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This stramash has clearly indicated to those north and south of the border the total amount (3 x times the Grangemouth revenue generated) which Scotland contributes through offshore fields north of the border.
Indeed the amounts quoted did not include sector licenses or Crown Estate contributions from the Murchison Field. It was also instigated on a nebulous theme which should have had everyone asking - why now? - since the unions are affiliated to New Labour.
The final point is that all the rubbish about fleets of ships and shut-downs etc did not take into account the fact that ships are not lying idle waiting for cargos - they have to be booked in advance. Nor was there consideration of the normal disruption caused by annual shut-down
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Brian:
I saw what happend @ Grangemouth....strikes happended from time to time.....
Negotiations will be taken and a deal
will be worked out.....
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