Just say no.
To Newbridge Rugby Club where I doubt they have such a thing as a Zen room handy.
What will True Wales - the body campaigning for a no vote - want to make quite certain IS there, centre stage?
Ordinary voters, grassroot campaigners determined to be David to the Goliath of a more slick, establishment-supported Yes campaign that's been waiting for the opposition to get properly out of the blocks.
I've seen the speech that Rachel Banner, a key figure in the No campaign, intends to deliver tonight. It's a good speech, a very good speech. The 'slippery slope to independence' rhetoric is there. But it sticks to the point, sticks to its mission which is to persuade voters that devolution has so far failed to deliver.
Where is the motivation, she asks, for giving Assembly Members more powers to legislate? The prosperity gap between Wales and the rest of the UK? Well that has widened. The devolution dividend she highlights in schools is the £527 spending gap between pupils in Wales and England.
"We say to the people of Wales, don't let them hide their record over the last decade. Make them get the basics right on the economy and schools. More laws won't pay for one more ambulance. More laws won't pay for one more nurse. More laws will not improve stroke services."
Where do things get rather more difficult? How about these lines:
"Now, so divided is the Health Service in the UK, that cross-border relations are breaking down... because of a shortfall of money from Wales. So we no longer have a universal health service in the UK. Aneurin Bevan must be turning in his grave."
What does that mean? Does having "a universal health service in the UK" suggest no campaigners would rather health was not devolved? That the National Assembly wasn't, in fact, in charge of the health service? Would many rather there was no National Assembly at all?
And what, under the heading "True Devolution" does this sentence mean:
"True Wales is here today to say that there is a better, more forward-looking form of devolution than that which Assembly politicians are currently offering. Instead of looking to centralise power in Cardiff Bay so that the Assembly becomes a pale copy of Westminster, we say that politicians must look to give power to the people, involving them in meaningful decision-making, to achieve true devolution."
I'm off to Newbridge to listen - and to ask just that.
UPDATE
From the No campaign an extra "no" tonight that might change the nature of the referendum battle over the next few weeks.
True Wales had until midnight tonight to submit their bid to the Electoral Commission to become the designated - official - lead No campaign. They've decided to say no to that chance. Some months ago we thought they might take this course but they've made it clear both publicly and privately that they were going to go for it.
So why not make it official? Because the Electoral commission rules make it virtually impossible, they argue, for a grassroots campaign to qualify. Because if there's no official No campaign there can be no Yes campaign. And if there are no designated campaigns, neither side gets £70,000 to spend on their teams. Neither side will have their campaign leaflet delivered free of charge to every household in Wales and neither side will get the platform of a referendum broadcast.
"Be grateful," said Len Gibbs of True Wales, "our decision has just saved the Welsh taxpayer half a million pounds." A spokesman for Yes for Wales said: "Our priority is to engage the Welsh public in the referendum and we will be discussing with the Electoral Commission the best way to do this."
Final thoughts. Could the biggest impact of tonight's decision be how much each campaign is now allowed to spend overall. And could someone somewhere try for a last ditch attempt to take on the No mantle?
~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~40~RS~)
I'm Betsan Powys, BBC Wales' political editor. I'll be blogging the inside track on 
Comments
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With supporters such as the BNP and UKIP, one wonders if any person of substance will put his or head above TW's parapet.
Who would want to share a platform with the likes of those, and with their distorted message of total negativity? - 'No, we can't be trusted to legislate for ourselves, unlike the Scots, we're incompetent.' That's their starting point.
One read of the turgid contradictory verbose nonsense spouted on TW's website is enough. They want devolution and they don't want devolution it seems.
However, the people of Wales deserve to have the case for a Yes and No vote clearly made. I have serious doubts that TW is capable of doing that. The daft rules of the Electoral Commission insist that there must be two officially endorsed campaigns or none.
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there was nothing new im what rachel banner had to say today...the usual scaremongering about 'independence'.....coupled with the stale and unworkable arguments she's been trotting out for months about keeping the devolution settlement as it ie legislation already approved by the welsh assembly should either be blocked altogether or be tied up in westminster for 3 years....so no house sprinkling scheme in wales......no organ donor scheme for wales......and no powers to tackle the very real crisis in social housing in wales. That is the kind of Wales that Rachel Banner seems to want!
Though in truth of course some members of true wales are on record as opposing the Assemblies very existence. And such people see a no vote as the first step to the welsh assembly's outright abolition.
But perhaps the real news from the launch of the NO campaign today......is that there will in fact be no NO campaign! With rachel banner stating that the No campaign will not actually be seeking to become the No campaign...a frankly bizarre position ...and one which of course effectively disenfranchises those in wales who are opposed to the assembly gaining lawmaking powers...as there will be no NO campaign to represent them.....something which will prove to be a blunder of monumental proportions i think!
Even as a yes supporter the fact there will not now be a NO campaign is not something i relish.....as while i disagree with them the views of those opposed to lawmaking powers should be represented in this referendum by an official campaign but it appears that true wales believes that they should not be.
Thankfully we on the yes side of this debate take our responsibility to our supporters and to the people of wales seriously and there is i'm pleased to say an enthusiastic and growing yes campaign....which is reaching out to people right across wales and which is holding large meetings right across wales...attracting many new volunteers and supporters in the process.
But am surprised to see true wales throwing in the towel so early in the campaign.....which is what they have effectively done in seeking not to be registered as the NO Campaign. Today true wales have not just said no to lawmaking powers for the welsh assembly...today true wales...the self styled NO campaign.... have said no to a NO campaign!
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Leigh,
you must keep up with the LCO's, house sprinklers will be part of Building Regs already scheduled for transfer.
"An Order in Council was approved yesterday (Tues 17th Nov) by Her Majesty the Queen which transfers powers to make Building Regulations for buildings in Wales to the Welsh Ministers with effect from 31 December 2011. The order laid before Parliament in July was approved by committees of both Houses of Parliament"
As for Social Housing Policy
http://wales.gov.uk/newsroom/housingandcommunity/2010/100629housinglco/?lang=en
This agreed as well.
The main point you are missing if True Wales or something else are not the official No campaign, then you cannot have a Yes campaign. Electoral Commission policy I am led to believe.
We the electorate of Wales deserve the case to be put by both sides so that a balanced view can be taken, this will likely not be the case.
It says True Wales do not have the courage of their convictions if they oppose the further devolving of power are not prepared to put that case as a 'No' campaign.
Anyway Power to the Welsh people I say, Vote yes in March, only 6 weeks to go.
Because after that there will not be any place to hide for the ruling politicians who have it wrong and they can justly accept the plaudits when they have it right.
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"With supporters such as the BNP"
What a terribly slanderous thing to say. Do you have any proof the BNP are supporting True Wales. I am not aware they even have a position on more powers.
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True Wales are playing a blinder, by the fact that they admit they don't meet certain criteria to officially run a NO campaign. It means that both the YES and NO sides cannot spend public money campaigning.
True Wales are well versed in the art of campaigning without taxpayers dosh, and, Rachael Banner is effortlessly slick in exposing the selfish wants of a Welsh establishment elite.
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#4
Having looked into it, I readily withdraw the remark as being incorrect, with sincere apologies to TW and the BNP.
It was based on a source that I was unable to verify.
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As far as I can see True Wales have bottled it! They probably would not have been allowed to be the official No campaign because of the limited range of their support. It seems to be restricted to an older reactionary right wing section of the electorate and therefore attractive to the likes of UKIP and BNP.
The more the extreme elements of the No support make their comments the better the YES campaign will do. If as Len Gibbs believes there is this huge groundswell wanting to abolish the Senedd, why on earth doesn't he launch his own party to do the job? Seems he is living in his own little fantasy land which I hope will come tumbling down on March 4th.
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I am genuinely worried by the non appearance of an official No campaign, and as a result the prohibition of a yes campaign. What that means is that we can not ensure that every household will get a yes and a no leaflet. This is bad for democracy and shame on True Wales for doing this. I just hope that the electoral commission send out a factual leaflet setting out what will happen if people vote yes and what will happen if people vote no.
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RE: M1,4, and 6
The old lie about BNP not supporting devolution is out again. The BNP's policy was and probably still is, a federal UK (England, Wales, Scotland and Ireland), with a law making welsh parliment, does that sound like the True Wales position ? No ?
Glad to see the nats withdrawing the comment Q
Also, can the BBC's messageboards and blogs be used to support either the Yes or No Campains ? Or will the same rules apply as during the elections ?
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@7
I don’t think that True Wales has bottled it. It has been generally trailed for the last week or so that they could not meet the criteria required for being considered as the official NO campaign. Ms Banner can spin it how she likes but I believe that is the reason they have not applied. Their problem seems to be that they are, largely, a South East phenomenon and couldn’t demonstrate an all Wales presence.
Len Gibbs above typifies their organisation’s tendency to exaggerate and spin the facts. £70,000 plus £70,000 is £140,000 Len, not half a million.
The bottom line is that these people are against the whole concept of the Welsh Assembly. However, it exists and will continue to exist, so I believe it should be equipped to do the job. True Wales are fond of pointing out its supposed failures but strangely do not seem to recognise that it is the present settlement that contributes to the problems that they themselves complain about.
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....The BNP's policy was and probably still is, a federal UK (England, Wales, Scotland and Ireland), with a law making welsh parliament...
Your history is about 80 years out-of-date, I think you mean: (England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland)
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im confident that every household in wales will get a leaflet from the yes campaign as we are a genuine grassroots campaign and are organised in communities right across wales....north and south....east and west...
the same cannot be said of true wales unofficial no campaign...as for an alleged grassroots campaign the truth is they have no grassroots in wales...so outside of small pockets of gwent its difficult to see anyone in wales receiving literature presenting the No side of the argument...and that is a direct consequence of the decision announced by rachel banner today.....a decision poster 5 bizarrely calls a 'blinder'!
so far as i can see the only way people in wales outside of the pockets of gwent where true wales has a presence will get any literature from them is if they are bankrolled by some multi millionaire.....in the way that the jersey based millionaire julian hodge funded the No campaign in 1997.
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I am genuinely worried by the non appearance of an official No campaign, and as a result the prohibition of a yes campaign.
And, so you should be!!! Is Rachael Banner, a Welsh Labour Celtic name?
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@13
The yes campaign is not being prohibited; it is just not being funded. I am fairly confident that it will still go ahead.
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yes glyndo a yes campaign will most certainly still go ahead...whether funding from the electoral commission is available or not! The yes campaign has had huge numbers of people attending its recent launches in places like aberystwyth, neath, bangor, newport, llanelli and swansea recently....and im sure this wave of support for lawmaking powers for the assembly that exists right across wales will not be allowed to fall away because true wales have chosen to run away from the battle....if anything support for the Yes campaign is likely to intensify now i think!
but one thing that seems to have been overlooked in this debate...and would certainly seem to have been overlooked by true wales when they chose to abdicate their responsibilities to their own supporters ....is that the issue of who becomes registered as the NO campaign is not necessarily closed....as another group...such as UKIP...or the BNP...or some other questionable organisation could present a case to the electoral commission to be registered as the official No campaign in this referendum. They would get the guaranteed airtime on radio...the wales wide mailshot and the tv slots true wales have bizarrely forsaken...now that would be interesting.....
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Leighrichards said
"every household in wales will get a leaflet from the yes campaign as WE are a genuine grassroots campaign"
Ah yes WE... so this blog has been infiltrated by actual out and out political activists! and there was me thinking it was just regular folk who happened to have an opinion one way or the other.
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infiltrated???.....perhaps poster 16 would care to tell us where on this blog ive concealed the fact that i support lawmaking powers for the welsh assembly and would be campaigning for a yes vote.....in all my posting on here on this issue ive always been completely open in my support for a yes vote...and im proud to say im one of many thousands of grassroots supporters of the yes campaign in wales.
Or is poster 16 suggesting that this blog should be reserved for 'armchair' commentators only? which would be rather odd as he surely must be aware that a regular poster on this blog on this subject in recent times has been none other than true wales luminary and activist len gibbs.......who is also then guilty of 'infiltration' i presume?
Personally im happy to debate with anyone on this issue whether they pontificate on events from the comfort of their own living rooms or whether they are actively involved in things. For me that is one of the very good things about this blog..as it gives both sides of this argument the opportunity to debate this issue directly with one another! So its sad to see that poster 16 would seem to want to exclude some people from this blog! But this is frankly the kind of blinkered parochial view we have grown to expect from opponents of devolution for wales like 'comeoffit'
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Hi!
Betsan... hoped you liked the Welsh cakes yesterday evening. May I respond to a few of the comments and help people to understand the action of True Wales in not applying for lead status. I have posted two articles on Latest News on the True Wales website that expands on the following:
It was not a case of failing to "meet certain criteria" or a case of "not have been allowed". Detailed discussions were held by True Wales with the Electoral Commission to clarify the requirements, and as my professional role for ten years before retirement was a compliance consultant, I had the task of determining and agreeing the requirements with the executives at Cardiff. I want to thank the executives at Cardiff for their assistance and willingness to help in the discussions. They did everything they could to clarify the requirements. It was not a lack of understanding or inability to complete the compliance requirements but a decision taken solely within True Wales not to make an application. We are under no obligation to give an explanation for the reason. However, the explanation we are prepared to offer is available on the Latest News page of the True Wales website.
A factor in the decision was that in the absence of official campaigns the Electoral Commission will have to run an information campaign explaining both sides' positions. The absence of official campaigns is a matter not yet determined by True Wales' decision, because as Betsan points out, someone could have cobbled together a last moment 'NO' campaign group - although if you think True Wales would have difficulty, imagine those of a group without evidenced activity. We also took this possibility into account when the decision was made.
As to the savings: The grant of £70,000 was a recovery of expenditure of 'facility' such as the hire of pot-plants for offices. None of the money spent by either group on promotion material such as leaflets and posters could be recovered from the £70,000. The cost of the postage to 1,300,000 homes was the biggest cost. The cost per delivery has not been indicated but 2,600,000 at 10p (probably on the low side) to 15p on the higher side is at the lower figure £260,000 plus up to £140,000 = £400,000 and on the higher £530,000.
In two weeks time, unless there is an announcement before that date, we will know if there are official lead yes/no campaign groups.
In the meanwhile… chatter on. The die is caste.
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Those questions need amswering, what are the WAG's achievements? It's no use just slagging off the 'No' campaign whatever its competence or connections. Please can the 'Yes' campiagn say why they are worth it. At the moment my personal experience of the WAG is largely negative, the 'war' between Cardiff County and WAG over funding, and the people of Rumney being stabbed in the back by WAG over their dispute over the future of Rumney Rec. So, come on, what's been so good about them? Have I missed something? There's one thing I am eternally grateful for, and that is free prescriptions, before then I had to spread the cost by getting one item per week. There must be other things which have significantly benefitted other people, so tell me. That's what we should be getting from this campaign, not 'our campaign is better than your campaign' nonsense.
Regards, etc.
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@ #11
Oh that is classic! One poster succesfully points out that True Wales couldnt possibly have any BNP supporters because the BNP supports a federal UK.... but rather than acknowledge the point or simply keep quiet in relation to the despicable slurs and lies that the Yes side have been peddling about True Wales, 'Penybryn' decides to pick up the aforementioned poster for forgetting to insert 'Northern' in front of Ireland. Talk about diversionary tactics
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Thanks for the mention on Good Morning Wales Betsan.
The Electoral Commission has confirmed that it has received applications for lead campaigns for both Yes and no campaigns:
"One group - ‘Yes for Wales’ - submitted an application to become the lead ‘Yes’ campaigner. One individual – David Alwyn ap Huw Humphreys - submitted an application to become the lead ‘No’ campaigner. "
So until decision is made on February 2nd on whether or not my application is valid reports that the Yes campaign have been scuppered are premature.
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The choice is simple.
VOTE YES FOR WALES
or
VOTE NO FOR A GREATER ENGLAND
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21 Alwyn Ap Huw
In my understanding of the criteria of acceptance is an interview in which there will be a requirement that you will have to demonstrate not only an ability to conduct a campaign but that you actually oppose a move to Part 4. Your website rather knocks that on the had.
Best of British luck, old chap!
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All the people of Wales need do to make an informed decision on the Yes or No vote for more powers is to look closely at the record of the last decade of partisan misrule from Cardiff Bay.
Devolution has been a glowing success for an unrepresentative elite and an unmitigated disaster for the people of Wales. And they've got the gall now to ask for more power.
More strength to Rachel Banner's right hand. Welsh nationalism is beyond the pale of all that is good in Welsh civic society.
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@ #22
Oh dear! who let the Welsh Braveheart out? No doubt posted whilst stripped to the waist with 'Cymru am Byth' written on his chest in the blood of an Englishman.
Those of us without a nationality or inferiority complex would happily vote No if this 'greater' means a greater health service, economy or Education... on a par with the rest of the UK (like it used to be pre-devolution) would do just fine too!
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I very much hope that in the absence of official yes and no campaigns that the electoral commission step in and run an information campaign to educate voters. I have no doubt that with its greater support from ordinary voters the Yes campaign can leaflet every home, I have grave reservations about the ability of True Wales to do so. That will be bad for democracy.
I think Len owes us more of an explanation, True Wales gave every indication, up to yesterday, that they would head up the No campaign and that they would apply for official status. Leaving it this late makes it near impossible for a credible alternative organisation to step in and take over. The claim that this will save public money is spurious, if the Electoral Commission have to step in they will have to both commission and get printed a leaflet and get it delivered.
Sorry Len True Wales have failed the credibility test.
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It was noted that "True Wales" were publicising a Welsh language version of their campaign website [Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]. Impressive stuff.
Are we to assume that Welsh-speaking web designers are fearing a "backlash" as well...?
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You are quite correct Len (23), the interviews, if it goes that far, will be held next Tuesday.
Opposing part 4 because it doesn't go far enough is as valid an argument as opposing part 4 because it goes too far. Which brings to light yet another weakness in the act covering referendums; campaigns are supposed to represent the range of arguments for voting in a particular way, which it would be impossible, in reality, for either the Yes or No sides to do.
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I would like to wish Hen Rech Flin luck in his attempt to become the official NO campaign. It is a sad abrogation of duty for True Wales, having filled their many supporters' heads with such heady dreams of a successful No vote to pull back at the last minute!
Len Gibbs's explanation for the reasons for this rings hollow. Will he continue to act as the spokesman for True Wales? Perhaps he fancies a rest.
I believe that True Wales are preparing for defeat in the referendum, and for a guerilla war following a YES vote, based on attacking a low turnout as a reason why it should not stand. It is sad that that is the best that they can offer.
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I saw Rhodri Morgan on "am pm" this week saying how pleased he was that people were joining the Labour Party because of the UK Government's approach to NHS reform - he noted even though they did not understand that Wales would be unaffected because the issues were devolved. Whatever we see by way of information and campaigning for the referendum over the brief period available, is there any chance that the fog of devolution can be cleared sufficiently to get more than a tiny turnout to resolve the technical change at stake? What happens if the number is low?
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Re 26
Lyn,
Right-wing Tory and supporter of 'True Wales', Sir Eric Howells, in a candid but bumbling appearance on television last, night admitted that the reason for TW's last minute act of cowardice was actually down to them not having any people to do the work for them. A bit of honesty at last.
As for the lie that they did this to avoid spending public money, you are quite right, this will cost more to the tax payer and still end up with the public having less information to make an informed decision (I say that in the belief that the No to Wales campaign would have to observe certain rules regarding truth and relevance during a campaign).
And I wonder how long it takes before the usual suspects pop up on here to complain about a low turnout after the Yes campaign achieves an overwhelming victory??!!
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I've just been listening to Len Gibbs' astonishing Good Morning Wales interview on Radio Wales this morning.
For those curious enough, Thursday's programme is available now on the Radio Wales section of the iPlayer, and the interview begins around 2:07.45.
It makes for very interesting listening!
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well fodafydd if the Yes vote wins by 55% to 45% on say a 30% turnout then I suspect there will be many people up in arms about the legitimacy. After all thats only just above 15% of the population eligible to vote.... and to further Caradog_michin's point I'd argue that there is more people than that in Wales who still think that David Cameron's plans for the NHS are going to affect them! On that basis, constitutional change based on just over 15% of the population is disgusting and I'll argue against it til the cow's come home. Of course such protesting would be unlikely to stop the the political machine but that would not stop it being a very valid point!
As I've said before... save Zimbabwe, only in Wales would such a result be allowed to stand.
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Betsan, you wear your heart on your sleeve too often. BBC's reporters are supposed to be without bias but you show your support for one side quite openly now.
I quote from your article, "True Wales had until midnight tonight to submit their bid to the Electoral Commission to become the designated - official - lead No campaign. They've decided to say no to that chance. Some months ago WE thought they might take this course"
The capitals are mine.
Who are "we"? Betsan and the BBC? Or Betsan and the "yes" supporters?
Frankly I care not which way any vote may go. But I do care about dispassionate reporting.
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Re 25
No Sir, I just love my country, and I will vote yes for Wales.
For if we vote no for a greater England.
There will be,
No Football team,
No Rugby team,
No BBC Wales,
And thats just for starters,
Therefore I will vote YES FOR WALES.
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If I may post a direct link to this morning's Good Morning Wales on the iPlayer, it's
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00x7jbw/Good_Morning_Wales_20_01_2011/
and fast forward to 2:07.45.
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@ #28
an Agent provocateur as leader of the NO campaign will do more to highlight the one-sided corruption of Welsh devolution more than anything that has gone before. Particularly when the public see the posts on your blog about how you and your political mates are going to spend their 70k on a party and booze.
For the aforementioned reasons I wish you the very best of luck!
I suspect many people are already annoyed that non of the 60 AMs that they put in power (and pay) are representing a view held by 49% of the population (based on the 1997 referendum). Hopefully you will be the straw that breaks the camels back :)
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Fodafydd re No31
I think you are possibly confusing fact and opinion.
Is Sir Eric a member and organiser of TW or as you say just a supporter. As the latter I doubt if he has any knowledge of their resources, his statement is therefore opinion not fact.
To anyone considering a yes vote I say, tell you AM there may be a time in the future when the request is appropriate.
However before that time is nigh you need to prove you can put right the education and prosperity of Wales, with the same powers you had when you got it so disasterously wrong.
You allocated £15billion to the 10 year plan to improve our economy and failed, we fell relative to the rest of the uk.
You have allowed our education levels to fall to third world standards.
During this time the annual grant more than doubled - what did you do with it.
When you demonstrate some competence you may generate some confidence, until then go away and re-think it all.
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Dewmach No35
a No vote would leave things EXACTLY as they are now, just how does that affect your ridiculous list.
No Football team,
No Rugby team,
No BBC Wales,
And thats just for starters.
However on a serious note, a yes vote is virtually guaranteed to see a bid for taxation and borrowing powers ( a la Holtham) during the next assembly term.
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Interestingly the recent referendum held in the southern Sudan required a 60% turnout with a simple majority, this particular vote was supervised by the UN and attracted International support with regards its legitimacy.
Food for thought for the democrats hereabouts.
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26: Lyn David Thomas
Lyn, if we were standing on the Hayes handing out £10 notes you’d complain they weren’t £20 notes! (Which is sort of the case of what you are doing now.)
“I think Len owes us more of an explanation:”
The paid-up members knew! Now if you had been a paid-up member….
“..they would head up the No campaign”
We are! There is no-one else, so official status or not, we are still the leading ‘Vote no’ campaign group. The subtly may be lost on you but there are others I am sure will get the point.
“for a credible alternative organisation”
Carwyn didn’t think True Wales was one. I’ve got a list of those from a google search who could have applied and met the criteria:
“No search results found.”
“..the Electoral Commission have to step in they will have to both commission and get printed a leaflet and get it delivered.”
Go to the Electoral Commission website… it already there and would have been sent whether there were official groups or not.
29 Sionnyn
Dream on.
31 FoDafydd
“Right-wing Tory and supporter of 'True Wales', Sir Eric Howells…”
No supporter of ours and he has ABSOLUTLY no idea of how many we may or may not have as supporters. His recent letter to the Western Mail was a rambling load of nonsense. But them aren’t mine?
36 MrAgreeable
Thanks for driving people via Iplayer to True Wales exposure...!
As some say in another context... "We are here...Get used to it."
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Len we have no idea who True Wales are, we don't know your membership numbers, we don't know who your office holders are, in fact the only think we know about your organisation is the handful of people you have paraded on TV.
I think what you and your group have done has damaged democracy in Wales. I suspect there are no more than 20 of you.
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Re 39
A no vote will see a campaign to abolish the Assembly and Wales, as can be seen from some of the previous comments.
Therefore it is a straight choice.
Vote Yes for Wales
or
Vote no for a greater England.
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Re 40
Stonemason,
Wasn't the vote in Sudan a vote for or against independence, for goodness sake??!! Do you think that the people of southern Sudan are also deluded and incapable of running their own affairs, by the way? Perhaps you also deny them the right to even call them a nation?
Re 41
Len,
"No supporter of ours" - really??!!
However, it seems quite clear that your members/supporters are almost exclusively right wing Tories and reactionary Labourites - most of them it would seem focused on a tiny geographical and intellectual area somewhere in the south east.
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Re 40
...oh, and Stonemason, are you actually suggesting that the UN be brought in to supervise our referendum?! Is this True Wales policy? Stranger and stranger...
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42 Lyn David Thomas
"we have no idea who True Wales are"
They seek them here, they seek them there, they've no idea where they are.
"the only think we know about your organisation is the handful of people you have paraded on TV. I think what you and your group have done has damaged democracy in Wales. I suspect there are no more than 20 of you."
An independent journalist counted more than that at the launch last night. I was astonished we were so many over 20!
The only damnage we have done is to the North Koprean style democracy where everyone votes the way the leaders vote.
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No.41 Len Gibbs
"Thanks for driving people via Iplayer to True Wales exposure...!"
My pleasure, Len! Will you be agreeing to any more live interviews on Wales Today or Wales Tonight?
*crosses fingers*
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Seems to me that there are two very distinct sides to how this Yes/No referendum is being run.
On the YES side there is the WAG, complete with the 60 AMs representing the four main parties, plus the extremely aggressive and vociferous Welsh nationalist orientated 'amalgam'.
This side holds all the aces, and are proof (if any were needed) that if one side is 100% supported by the government/establishment(crachach) and of course the Welsh media,then any opposition viewpoint will find it difficult to succeed.
They believe in persuasion, often bordering on bullying, in order to get their message across. To them, anything goes.
Alternatively there is the NO side. Lacking the governmental, media, and 'shout and scoff' support so obviously (and easily)handed out to their YES opponents, they must find it difficult indeed to look like winners in this increasingly nasty referendum.
All is not lost however. For although I detest opinion polls (especially when they are ALL paid for by one side (the assembly), they still point to the fact that a good turnout (which does kind of say it all) could still result in a NO victory.
You see, many who will be voting on March 3rd are not members of political parties. Are not strong on dogma. And above all, inspite of non-stop barracking by blogs,forums, and the Welsh media, they are still inclined to make their own minds up and not be bullied by ANYONE, least of all a few D list 'celebrities' wanting free publicity for themselves.
In spite of loaded dice, and all the odds being stacked against the NO 'campaign'.....and even because of a love of true democracy.......
I'll be voting NO.
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"I suspect many people are already annoyed that non of the 60 AMs that they put in power (and pay) are representing a view held by 49% of the population (based on the 1997 referendum). Hopefully you will be the straw that breaks the camels back :)" said comeoffit #37.
Anti-devolutionists argue that the low turnout in 1997 invalidated the referendum, saying that only 25 per cent of the population voted for it.
Which means that roughly 25 per cent of the electorate actually voted No. But comeoffit is now using the '97 referendum to argue that "49% of the population" is opposed to what's on offer on March 3rd.
How does he / she arrive at that figure of 49 per cent? But if he / she is right, then 51 per cent of the population would vote Yes in a 100 per cent turnout.
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49 jacothenorth
Good point! The issue of turnout and an acceptable majority is largely the context of the vote occasion. The first past the post system is to deliver someone who is the most (least) popular or dispopular and on average over a large number of constuency delivers an approximation of a fair result. Constitutional issues were generally regarded as requiring a significantly larger majority to justify altering the basis of rule.
The 1999 result is not challeneged because a majority turned out. However the narrowness of the margin has not convinced people that the change was justifiable. Some of the people who will vote 'no' on March 3rd will do so because the do not accept the change from the 1997 promised devolution to the hugely different GOWA 2006 and certainly are opposed to a wafer thin majority especially if this time the voting number is below 50%.
This is not a comment or policy ofor and on behalf of True Wales. It's just an observation from the large number of people we've interviewed. True Wales wants everyone to turn-out and vote so the direction can be finalised one way or another.
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There will still be debate by the 'YES' and 'NO' sides, such as between Roger Lewis and Rachel Banner on Dragon's Eye tonight on BBC, so democracy is not totally dead, it just means no 'freebie' tele ads, leaflets and such. £70k does not get you a lot anyway.
Some more news this evening on the state of Welsh Education, University students down in Wales by 8% because it is claimed the Welsh universities are accepting the better 'A' level results on offer by other students in UK for places over the poorer Welsh results. Maybe Mr Andrews knew this and factored this into his maths to make his policy work?
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Len the North Korea comment is disgraceful, more scare tactics from a morally bankrupt organisation. Please can you tell us how many of you there are and who your executive committee is? I suspect there were more than 20 people at the launch because they were mainly media and Yes supporters...
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Turnout is an important factor.
Many Welsh voters are disenchanted with the whole political scene in Wales, they just won't turnout to vote anyway.
Perhaps we need a third unofficial campaign - the stay away and Abstain Group - let the majority speak by having nothing to do with the Referendum.
Get the turnout below 30%! make the whole thing a charade.
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52 Lyn David Thomas
"North Korea"
I love you... you rise so nicely to the bait.
"Please can you tell us how many of you there are and who your executive committee is? I suspect there were more than 20 people at the launch because they were mainly media and Yes supporters."
Lots and lots came for the free Welsh cakes... pensioners using their free bus passes and able to move about because of free prescriptions, but still either waiting to see a consultant about something or hanging on for an overdue operation... in fact some are dying for an operation.
There's Rachel Banner, her Mum, me, Paul Matthews, Nigel Dix, Lawrence Howell, Nigel Bull, in fact, to be honest with you for a change, I can't remember some of the names, but I know there's more because we've been spending money and we've got money in the bank... and no rich sponsor. So its got to be a lot. Oh, and we've got a guy in north Wales and one in south Pembrokeshire.
Now lets see, there's Rachel, her mum, Paul Matthews, me, Nigel Bull, Nigel Dix, Lawrence Howell... yes we've got more than that because the last time I counted themn I used all my fingers and toes. That's right, nineteen, plus the chaps from north Wales and south Pembrokeshire.
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The Referendum is weeks away and the nationalists are out in force pleading for more powers and more dosh.
The poor little nats are tearing their hair out at the thought of losing the gravy train. Yet they ignore the fact, borne out by every social policy research organisation in recent months that Wales has gone backwards since devolution; so far back that the region is now bottom of the economic and social hit parade. I wonder why they do that?
I hope the public can see through the constant hysterical complaint of the Yes campaign that "it wasn’t us gov, it was the nasty Westminster Parliament that done it," or the constant whinge that everything will be alright when they get a much bigger share of the national wealth.
All the economic and social evidence of the past thirteen years shouts loudly that the Assembly cannot be trusted with more powers. Vote NO.
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It's simple really.
Vote yes for a Welsher version of Wales.
Vote no for keeping Great Britain intact and great.
All you yes supporters are very proud of your proper Welsh names, don't be surprised that folk with English names are looking askance at the higher echelons of Llafur.
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@ no.49
maybe.... but that would still leave 49% of the population with nobody representing their interest in Cardiff Bay
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Another reason to vote NO
1 The amount of Teachers salaries are NOT devolved to NAfW although Education is.
2 Salaries and on costs (Employers NI, Pension etc) represent 80 to 85% of a school budget.
3 NAfW funds school budgets at a level in the region of £500 less per pupil than English schools, despite having the same amount of money allocated in the block grant under the Barnett formula.
4 Why?
and finally
5 What do they do with the monies that they are withholding from schools?
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@58
The amount of money spent on pupils in Welsh schools is the decision of the local Councils. The money from NAfW is not ring fenced and no Council would wish it so. So, if you are looking for reasons for the disparity look to the Councils, not the NAfW. I am sure you will be aware that the figure varies from Council to Council.
In addition schools in England have to pay for services which are provided off budget in Wales. So the comparison is not like for like.
Does this answer your 4th question, “Why?”
It does, of course, make your 5th question irrelevant.
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Re 58.
5.What do they do with the monies that they are withholding from schools?
They spend it on things like this? Note that the important senedd areas, only have a Welsh language title?
http://www.assemblywales.org/sen-home/sen-about-senedd.htm
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West-Wales, are you suggesting ...
"... If you intend to vote NO, stay at home on March 3rd, stay away from the polling booth and have a tea party to celebrate democracy in Wales !"
Charades ?
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Couple of points;
Re M11, No, check it out, eire would be "invited to join", largely irrelevant now since the "republic" is economically no more, and politically will surely follow !
Also the comment;
"No Football team,
No Rugby team,
No BBC Wales,
And thats just for starters."
Well two and three would suit me fine but all alarmist nonsense anyway ! A referendum on abolishing the BBC Wales and the S4C would be won hands down if the money saved could be spent here in Wales.
Finally, is it legitimate for this blog to be openly used by members of either the "yes" or "no" camps, especially as it it moderated by the "yes" supporting BBC Cymru ?
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Len, so you aren't a serious debater, just one that likes to make outrageous statements with the intent of getting a reaction. There is an internet term for that sort of activity.
You belong to a secret organisation that will not reveal who its executive committee is. Why should we trust that anything you say is the truth?
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Re 63
Len Gibbs has shown by his 'answers' that both he and TR are a spent force and an empty vessel. Either they have no answers, they don't actually believe their own answers or, indeed, are embarassed by their own answers. It really doesn't matter which, because no-one's listening to them any more, other than the few dinosaurs who come on here.
Of course they won't tell us who they are - they're embarassed by that as well!
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Watching Dragon's Eye, right now. Rachael Banner, is talking calmly and lucidly in a typically British kinda way.
Roger Lewis (note the SURNAME) is talking with the exaggerated facial expressions of an S4C drama queen!!!
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63 Lyn David Thomas
You're a wind-up.
The names of the executive are:
Rachel, Campaign Director; her mum, secretary; Paul Matthews, Treasurer; Campaign Committee and/or Spokespersons: Nigel Bull, Nigel Dix, Lawrence Howells, me and Mike, Jon and Ken. There is a larger steering committe but as the campaign has been launched this is the daily executive. There are sub-committees in North Wales but they operate in the area and organise seperatel and there are also county organisers in West Wales.
Does that help? We are actually bigger than people want to believe.
The core campaign is led from South Wales and these are the people you see on the TV and hear on the radio.
True Wales is the only publicly recognised organisation in Wales that provides the opportunity of democratic debate at no cost to the taxpayer and funded only by subscription. Without us... there would ONLY be a 'yes' group and a 'Korean style' referendum.
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The fact is that Yes Wales are pro Wales and True Wales want No Wales!
The big problem True Wales have is that even if the vote goes their way they still lose because they want the abolition of the Senedd. I can remember the last time we voted no we ended up with a rabid right wing Thatcherite government that wrecked our industrial base.
The only alternative to the Senedd is direct rule from Westminster which is a truly frightening prospect given the present incumbents. The Yes vote on March 3rd will speed up the process of making Welsh laws, something all "TRUE" Welsh people will vote for.
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I'd like a vote to abolish the UK parliament and all the sponging free-loaders who "Work" there, who put my living costs up and caused me to lose my job, let millions of people into the country from abroad and continue to let bankers and tax dodgers make millions on the backs of the ordinary working men and women. ABOLISH WESTMINSTER - THE EUROPEANS CAN DO A BETTER JOB FOR US, we are too small as an island to survive.
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#65 Jack, you are living in a world of your own. What are the most important minstries in WAG? Finance, health and education. Who are the Ministers? Jane Hutt (English name), Edwina Hart (English name), Leighton Andrews (English name). They are all native English speakers, though Mr Andrews has taught himself some Welsh. They all represent consitutencies which are English speaking. But in your little world they are engaged in a conspiracy against English speakers to make Wales more Welsh?!! Being Welsh has nothing to do with ethnicity. You too can be Welsh.
As for the arguments that the WAG has done poorly so should be abolished - ignores the fact that Wales is a democracy. If WAG has done badly chuck 'em out and elect another government. Or is the argument that Wales can't be a democracy? Why not? Perhaps the next time the UK government screws up we should abolish it and ask the Americans in to run the country. Same argument. If you don't like politicians, you don't like democracy. Try living where there isn't any.
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terrific dragon's eye tonite....was really good to see rachel banner and roger lewis going head to head on the show....with roger lewis clearly winning the duel hands down. But sadly such duels will now be few and far between as a result of true wales bizarre decision to duck being the NO campaign - as guaranteed tv slots will no longer be available to the respective campaigns.
Had to chuckle though at rachel banner's use of the term 'slippery slope' as of course the only slippery slope people in wales need to be wary of in this referendum is True Wales slippery slope towards the abolition of the welsh assembly....as there are those in true wales who see a No vote as being the first step towards ending devolution for wales and returning wales to direct rule from westminster!
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Some of True Wales supporters on here don't just want to abolish the National Assembly, they want to go back to the 1950s with no Secretary of State, maybe even get rid of the Lloyd George era Welsh institutions as they want no distinction between Wales and England. That is the True Slippery Slope.
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Why did watching Dragon's Eye remind me of of school days?
When the real trouble makers and bullies in their "short trousers" were hiding behind the bike sheds and some silly little Smart A--e was in the playground doing the spouting.
Thing is, if it all went pear-shaped, it was the little fella got the blame and the clouts.
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For some people such as myself, the vote / debate is simply the wrong one to be having at the present time. Few, if any, would argue with the fact that the Welsh Assembly Government has failed the people of Wales. In virtually every facet of public service and economic policy, government and independent surveys are consistently showing how the performance of Welsh public services and the Welsh economy is declining sharply against performance in comparable parts of the UK. Alarmingly, in some areas (e.g. schools education) we are even witnessing unprecedented absolute declines in performance and standards. Sadly, there is also a correlation between these declines and the advent of devolution (which incidentally I voted for). Also, the rate of decline in most areas of economic and public service policy is accelerating rather than slowing down.
Hence for me and many others, the public debate going on in Wales right now is a largely irrelevant one, given that no one could seriously make the case that changes to legislative "process" are going to transform the performance of the Assembly Government and the impact it is having on Wales. In fact, based on recent histroical trends, one could even argue that the planned legislative changes could make a bad situation even worse.
I would therefore argue that we need an independent inquiry into the performance of the Assembly Government (since its inception) to understand what have been the causes of failure and how these can be addressed to change the instsituion to better serve the people of Wales. Perhaps one of the recommendations would be to strengthen legislative powers. However, until an inquiry is completed, with a public debate to follow, it is too early to say whether legislative change is worthwhile.
For these reasons, I will sadly not be exercising my democartic right to vote, and will be abstaining, and living in hope that the inquiry and debate we really need will come to pass sonner rather than later, before Wales slips further down economically and socially - a path to a bleak future for our younger generations and generations to come.
Let's hope that honesty and good sense will ultimately prevail!
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71. Back in 1969, it was said that half the population of Wales lived in the then County of Glamorgan, governed by the County Council in Cardiff. The standards of Education and Health services were far higher than exists today. Voters of my generation may well ask, what is the point of an Assembly when it doesn't match the standards of yesteryear. In 1997, my council tax was £593 - this year £1,629! Mine's a NO vote.
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#69 Tredwyn opines:
"As for the arguments that the WAG has done poorly so should be abolished - ignores the fact that Wales is a democracy."
Well Tredwyn I suppose it depends on how you define that nebulous term democracy. We could go by a dictionary definition and say its government by all the people, whatever that may mean. It means so many things to so many people.
The ancient Athenians who devised the form of government excluded women and foreigners (metics).
Some people used to say, probably still do, that the old Soviet system was democratic. Of the many flaws in the system a fundamental problem was that although regular elections were held the electorate could only vote for one Party.
Closer to home there's the glowing example, in my opinion, of the Scottish referendum in 1979. The Yes vote won the day but devolution was not pushed through because 40% of the electorate did not vote Yes.
And in the more recent Montenegro referendum on breaking the link with Serbia they required a 55% rule.
Now if you put those two referenda in perspective with the Welsh referendum of 97 when political shysters pushed through a fundamental change to a constitution on a wafer thin majority, and still use the term democracy, the definition becomes stretched to alarming proportions.
But I'm sure the soviet commissars would have applauded the result.
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re: 43
"Vote no for a greater England."
That says a lot about the mentality of some yes advocates.
re: 70
"terrific dragon's eye tonite....was really good to see rachel banner and roger lewis going head to head on the show....with roger lewis clearly winning the duel hands down."
Not only do some of the yes advocates fail to show courtesy towards those who happen to hold a different point of view to them but they cannot even be objective. Any open minded person who watched that programme could not have failed to be impressed by the performance of Rachel Banner. Publicly the Yes camp will attack her but in private how they must fear her for what she has achieved thus far (plus judging by some of the comments her, she will be labelled 'anti-Welsh' etc). If only more people in politics could conduct themselves in the calm, polite and collected manner that she does.
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True Wales can talk the talk but can't walk the walk. Who will monitor what donation True Wales will get? What is stopping some rouge element pretending to be True Wales from spreading lies on leaflets paid by that element.
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#61 Stonemason
Stony Llangor @ #73 puts the case for abstaining very well.
Its an opinion that is widely held.
Simply the question in forthcoming Referendum is a fix, if we vote "NO" we stay as we are, working with the Wales 2006 Act, if "YES" then primary legislative powers will be devolved to the Assembly.
The referendum question is not the choice the majority of the people of Wales want to make.
If you analyse what is going on, then irrespective of how it's worded the question is carefully chosen so that the Assembly politicians and Nationalists win either way.
There is little interest or pressure in Wales for this Referendum, despite the media and political hype - Turnout will be unlikely to reach 50% and more likely will be below 40%.
The case that Devolution as presently structured has worked for Wales has been demolished - the people of Wales are worse off as a result and our children are having their futures destroyed.
So how are the opinions of those who are abstaining to be heard.
I haven't made my mind up whether to vote or abstain - I'm not comfortable with either option, so I'm throwing out ideas.
However while "NO is better than "YES", at least it maintains some protection for civil and individual rights - a Constitutional rethink is the right answer. Providing its objective and doesn't just rubber stamp the opinions of the current Nationalists and Political Elite
So the idea of scuppering the whole deal by making the Referendum a nonsense has attractions.- But it should be a proper campaign to drive the turnout below 35%, to force the Electoral Commission and our politicians to recognise whats on offer is not acceptable and demonstrate we want something else.
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Re 78
West-Wales,
Abstention is not the same as a spoilt ballot, for instance. Abstention can mean a whole number of different things: indifference, turning up too late, displeasure with the choice on the ballot paper etc.... If everyone is given the opportunity to vote - as we are - then I'm happy with that.
If people are truly unhappy with this smallish constitutional change, they will vote. If people are truly scared that this - as the scaremongerers of the No to Wales campaign are claiming - is the slippery slope, again they will vote.
What will not be acceptable after the referendum is for TR to complain about a low turnout, when their own cowardice this week may have added to that possibility.
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#78
That post West Wales is definitely food for thought. However the problem, as I see it, is at least a successful No vote would undoubtedly knock one wheel off the Nationalist gravy train.
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Fodafydd you a correct, it wouldnt really be ok for True Wales to complain about a low turnout out. However, for the reasons I outlined in #33 it would be perfectly acceptable for anybody else to complain!!
You do realise and acknowledge that most people who vote No will not even have heard of True Wales. They will do it as a protest.
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Re 81
comeoffit,
I know they're only opinion polls, but every single one that has been held for months now has shown a very healthy lead for the Yes campaign. Because of the nature of opinion polls they are a snapshot, and don't need (obviously) to ask everyone. However, it is quite clear that the No's are in a minority. It is fair to assume therefore that the Welsh nation - so far - has decided that they are happy to see this next step take place.
Everyone - or just about everyone - will know that the vote is taking place. And more of them may well have turned out had TR not bottled it this week.
However, there may be another reason why they came to this decision. On this blog alone we have seen how intemperate and misleading their pronouncements can be. Perhaps wiser heads (there must be some) thought that they would only infuriate the whole nation in the process...
Before you all start - I know very well that only one vote matters!
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67. At 11:57pm on 20 Jan 2011, Daf53 wrote: "I can remember the last time we voted no we ended up with a rabid right wing Thatcherite government that wrecked our industrial base."
Nothing like re-writing history.
In 1979 Labour proposed the vote with a number of Welsh Labour MP's against, Kinnock amongst them. The vote was nearly 4 to 1 against.
From the office of national Statistics:
Manufacturing accounted for more than 20 per cent of the economy in 1997, the year Labour came to power. But by 2007, that share had declined to 12.4 per cent.
That is far steeper than the fall under Lady Thatcher, when its share of the economy fell from 25.8 per cent to 22.5 per cent.
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#75 Wales is a democracy in the specific sense that anyone over 18 can register and vote. If Welsh people are disgusted with the WAG they have only to vote 'em out. With no WAG if the Westminster government does things you don't like all you can do is vote out the 40 (soon to become 30) Welsh MPs. Unfortunately they are not very influential anyway - in either of the main political parties. I can't understand all the 'no' voters wanting to turn themselves into political eunuchs. Knock the WAG by all means, demonstrate and vote 'em out - but leave our institution alone!
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@82
The early Yougov/itv polls also used to ask a question about Welsh speaking ability... but they no longer do. The one I saw sampled 44% Welsh speakers (double what is the reality).
Now I dont wanna make too bigger point about this but but obviously there is a correlation between speaking Welsh and your likelihood of voting Plaid (I can pull out stats to prove it and besides there's nothing to be ashamed of about this fact) ... and if you vote Plaid you're hardly going to vote NO to further powers are you. In essence what I am saying is that particular poll was skewed as it failed to weight correctly for Welsh speaking ability.
Be careful with opinion polls! It will be close with a low turnout. With the media and celeb support The Yes vote will probably just edge it though.
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"...but leave our institution alone!"
"Flawed institution" you should have wrote there Tredwyn.
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All the obfuscation about who supports which organisation and the scaremongering about slippery slopes in which ever direction all fail to answer the questions that i want answers to.
If the yes vote is successfull will it;-
(1) restore the missing £500 per head to school pupils
(2) restore the missing £1000 per head to our university students
(3) restore our declining education results
(4) restore to English standards the performance of NHS Wales
(5) match English standards of performance with the Welsh Ambulance service
(6) restore Economic Development growth (who scrapped the WDA and WTB ? )
(7) repair the potholes in our roads to English stsndards
(8) Close the wastefull international offices
(9) Cancel Ieuans Air taxi
(10)Produce any policy that makes Wales better than England (and i dont count free prescriptions which only benefit thoes who could afford to pay )
If the answer to the above is yes the i will vote yes willingly, and like the good school pupil the Assembly can go up to a higher class. But, if the answer is no then like the failing school pupil the Assembly should be held over in the lower class untill it can do better
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87. The answer to all your questions 1-10 is NO,and that why I shall be voting No.The "reality" is that they've had unprecedented public funds over 10 years and relative performances got worse,so with less money and the whole of welsh political classes/media involved in vast conspiracy to look after them selves why would they undertake the surgery necessary to re-balance our economy. With regard to the delays in putting in place laws for wales,what has been the time lost/actual cost to public purse. Rachel Banner was correct as if they get YES,then as soon as Her Majesty signs the Act,the NATS will be campaigning for "more powers",as the current "settlement",doesnt allow them to totally "welshify" Wales,and unfortunately the "running dogs" in all other political parties are going along like sheep.Let the NATS remove the clause in their constitution in relation to "independence",and they might get some respect,but until that time they need to watched like hawks as they wish to seperate us from our kith and kin with whome we have fought wars for centuries.
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Re 82.
These polls you refer to, are these the same kind of polls used by Plaid in the 2010 general election? Yes, those infamous polls that had Plaid on course for gaining 5 new MPs!!!!!
What really happened, was Plaids vote share dropped from a dismal 11% to a pathetic 10%. Carwyn had been warning that the Conservatives were enemies of devolution, the vote for the existing 3 Conservative MPs shot up whilst Llafur's vote crashed. And, the Conservatives funnily enough gained 5 new MPs.
The moral of the story, do not take any notice of polls taken by interested parties.
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73 Llangor .
an excellent post, however the only way you have any chanceof seeing such an enquiry is to VOTE NO. A NO win puts a spoke in more than one wheel and would force them tolook at why they have lost. A yes vote, will just mean moreand moreof the same.
78 West Wales
Nice thought but if only 7 people voted and it was 4-3 to the yes, the politicians would accept the result, hoiwever if it was 3-4 against a yes they wouldn't, that's politicians and power for you.
85- Comeoffit
yougov did just that poll this week, i was polled.
87-geoff Frake
Nice list - see reply 88, but you knew that anyway.
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Yougov are not an interested party but one of the most respected polling organisations.
Welsh schools spend less per head because local authorities choose to pass less on, and some local authorities give more to schools that others do. As for falling standards, wrong standards are not falling - though in comparison with England they are not advancing as much - relative not absolute figures. Now in Wales we have, thanks to the Welsh Government, the foundation phase and the Welsh Bac, both advances over what is being done in England but whose benefits will take years to see. As far as the NHS is concerned we aren't about to see the wholesale privatisation that England is about to experience - again thanks to devolution.
However none of the arguments about the merits of the Welsh government are relevant here, its not about one government's performance its about making a better and a more transparent legislature. The current system is one where the legislative process is held up by the piecemeal transfer of powers, either by LCO or by tagging on to a Westminster Act. It doesn't give the Welsh Government or the National Assembly a full pallet of powers to work from. Those groups and organisations lobbying for changes to laws report that the present system is confusing and expensive - as effectively they have to lobby twice, once to get the power devolved and secondly for the specific legislation, and they have to split their efforts between two legislative bodies, Parliament and the National Assembly. This is not good for transparent and accountable government. OK its a tidying up exercise, but its an important one.
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For the discerning voters in our green and pleasant land I recommend a volume by P.J.O'Rourke entitled "Don't Vote! It just encourages the[m] ........ ".
... this US commentator could be describing the disenchantment that voters West of Offa's Dyke have with politics, in particular the politics of Cardiff Bay with a seemingly single party establishment.
What hope is there for democratic scrutiny ?
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91 ... wrote "OK its a tidying up exercise, .... "
... absolute tosh, this unicameral legislature with no effective opposition is akin to my Jack Russel sitting on top of a warren, the rabbits [public] have no chance of survival [democracy].
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Can I just get rid of the nonsense that the Yes Campaign is just about the Nats Plaid. It is not. The Yes Campaign is supported by Labour, the Tories and the Liberal Democrats. It is shameful that some nationalists want to hijack the campaign for political ends, and that they are playing into the hands of the no campaign with their rhetoric about independence.
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Re 94.
I don't trust any AM of any political party, especially Llafur and Plaid who so cleverly plotted a political system with no effective opposition.
So, this quest for law making powers is just a tidying thing, is it? That's not how Plaid see it, they see a yes vote giving them a fully fledged Welsh Parliament!!!!!
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/welsh-politics/welsh-politics-news/2010/08/19/plaid-cymru-to-establish-clear-green-water-with-labour-91466-27091839/
Ms Evans, a regional AM for Mid and West Wales, said the party needed to move into a new phase, with fresh ideas for a fully-fledged Welsh Parliament which will come into existence if the referendum on primary lawmaking powers is won next year.
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Nospin #90
A NO win puts a spoke in more than one wheel and would force them tolook at why they have lost. A yes vote, will just mean more and more of the same.
You are probably right, for the politicians, who have a vested interest in the outcome, a low turnout will be explained as the Welsh people accepting (and agreeing with) the inevitable!
Lyn #91
Education is a devolved function, however you try to spin it - if Welsh Education standards are lower than elsewhere in the UK, the blame rests with the Assembly Government.
The Welsh BAC ha a long way to go to evolve and become accepted as an Academic qualification, though it has some merit for vocational studies - The English BAC (virtually the same system) has already run into problems.
Returning control of the NHS to the medical profession with administrators employed by them, instead of vice versa, has to be a good move, and is not privatisation.
Unfortunately for the Welsh people our NHS provision continues to decline, funding is being reduced, and the centralisation project moves on apace with local facilities closing, removing services from our rural communities.
I simply cannot understand why you suggest none of the arguments about the merits of the Welsh government are relevant here, when debating whether or not to give the Assembly Primary Legislative powers.
That is surely what the debate is fundamentally about.
I will agree the current system is unacceptable - there should be no LCO's or transfer of Powers.
If pressure groups wish to change the law in areas outside the remit of the Assembly they should (perhaps with the assistance of the Assembly) lobby Westminster.
However at least the current system gives the Welsh people some individual civil and human rights protections, as the debate over the Organ LCO shows. - The Welsh Government does not own or have rights over my (or your) body, and therefore WAG cannot (and must not be allowed to) assume assent.
If we are part of the UK we have rights, privileges and protections under a legislative and Constitutional system with precedents and hard won freedoms dating back a thousand years - you are asking that we should forgo those rights and protections.
You are asking that we give the Welsh Government or the National Assembly a full pallet of powers to work from a Government proven unable to adequately deliver the powers it currently has, or respect the rights and aspirations of its citizens.
Stony has it about right in #93.
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Re 92
Stonemason,
Your: "What hope is there for democratic scrutiny?"
is hilarious in the week where we all saw that ridiculous performance in the House of Lords in your beloved, infallible Westminster.
I think I know which I prefer! And it will be even better after the referendum, when our politicians can ignore those comedians on the banks of the Thames.
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When 97 writes ...
...that ridiculous performance in the House of Lords ...
... I assume he refers to the democratic scrutiny cherished by the democrats hereabouts; scrutiny so despised by the supporters of the unicameral administration foisted on the unwary of Wales a decade or more ago.
If devolution had brought good democracy with adequate scrutiny the conversation concerning more powers would be quite different in my opinion.
Thank you West Wales.
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Re 98
So there we are, proof positive that for people like Stonemason it isn't a matter of using the intellect to come to a genuinely held view. By his unquestioning defence of this week's pantomime at Westminster, he merely confirms his belief that all at Westminster is good and all at the Senedd is bad. I'm just surprised that he is so prepared to make public his shallow position.
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I reiterate my 98 ...
If devolution had brought good democracy with adequate scrutiny the conversation concerning more powers would be quite different in my opinion.
... though there is little to discus with those that insult other contributors.
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#86 Fitzmark2
OK "flawed institution" if you like. What institution is perfect? This one has a more proportionate democratic voting system than the House of Commons (and the House of Lords, needless to say). It reflects the political leanings of the Welsh electorate better than the government in Westminster. It needs to improve and will do so with public engagement - not by people moaning that they want to run back to nursey in London.
# 95 Hey Jack, you still haven't told me how Hart, Hutt and Andrews are "celtic names" oppressing English speakers, when they are English speakers themselves. You might like to know that only 6 per cent of WAG civil servants speak Welsh so the Welshies are under- not over- represented in the government service. All this conspiracy stuff about how we are heading for independence when no more than 10 per cent of Welsh people want it is just fantasy and paranoia. Adress real issues, not bogeymen.
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Re 96
West-Wales,
Could you please justify your statement? -
'The English BAC (virtually the same system)' (i.e. as the Welsh bac).
Thank you.
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Re 100
No insult, merely exasperation at how you are willing to excuse anything that goes on at Westminster, however infantile or meaningless, and that you are just as incapable of applauding anything that happens at the Senedd.
By any definition, that is shallow thinking - wouldn't you agree?
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It is easy to see why Llafur and PC politicians within the Yes camp disregard their shaming economic stewardship in their push for more powers. And who could blame them? Who would want to be associated with the shameful policies that have driven the Welsh economy to the bottom of any comparative social, economic, educational or health table of well being?
A No vote is the only way of showing the undemocratic elite in Wales that they are taking a step too far.
Economically they are inept, an incompetent bunch of Machiavellian shysters who would use a "yes" victory as a stepping stone to their long term aim of breaking the sustaining link with England.
Vote No and stop the rot.
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I see in our local paper that Philip Glynn the No organiser in this area says "we are entitled to a proper debate... public discussiion is precisley what the Bay political class does not want, as it does not trust Welsh people to be able to hear & participate in such as debate". Surely it is True Wales who have chosen not to not to participate. Do they not trust the Welsh people?
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Re 105
Absolutely! Clearly they don't. Mind you, look at message 104, and ask yousrelf - are they capable of debate?
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Re 101
It is a flawed institution in relation to its inceception Tredwyn.
You might think that it needs to improve but based on its record over the last thirteen years the only thing that will lift the region out of the slough of despond is a NO vote to stop the rot of nationalism on Welsh civic society.
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A lot of the No sayers appear to be English far right trolls
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Well said Carl, and thank you ever so much. You obviously recognise the huge differences between Llafur, and English folk?
Thanks again Carl, you really are a star.
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