One Wales, two voices?
A reassurance that the referendum would NOT be held on the same day as the Assembly election?
Absolutely no way, says Carwyn Jones.
Absolutely no way, says Ieuan Wyn Jones. We're not about to rule anything in our out. How unwise would that be?
Apparently Plaid Cymru's parliamentary leader, Elfyn Llwyd wasn't in that particular loop. He's just told a group of journalists in Westminster that a May 2011 referendum has been "ruled out, all but" and the vote will be held in October or March next year.
A vote on election day would be "pretty bloody confusing ... It will be October or March."
One Wales, two voices?
UPDATE
What exactly did Mr Llwyd say? Was he, as Plaid are suggesting, simply laying out the Conservative position as he understood it.
Here are the quotations care of one who was there. Make up your own minds.
"I don't think it is going to be in May, it is either going to be in October or March.
At the present time my suspicion is October."
Mr Llwyd said Carwyn Jones and Ieuan Wyn Jones had held a press conference in Cardiff at which they were not talking dates.
"The Conservatives in the National Assembly are adamant that they don't want it on the same day as the election in May.
"And frankly, there is some sense in that because while parties might be rowing the same boat on the referendum they are also at each others' throats getting seats so it's going to be pretty bloody confusing."
"I don't think anyone wants to be hemmed in by the Tories and giving in to their demands but their demand is that they would be happy to vote for the trigger provided it was explicitly ruled out that there would be something in May.
"In reality it is ruled out, all but, although no guarantees can be given. It is simply not tenable" {to hold a referendum on election day}
I'm Betsan Powys, BBC Wales' political editor. I'll be blogging the inside track on 
~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~12~RS~)
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As to the date...they are daft enought to do just that...May 2010...split vote...I'd put nothing past them.
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Quite correct Len.
I wouldn't trust any "quiet assurances" that both Carwyn Jones or Ieuan Wyn Jones might offer.Those two would try any trick to maintain their fragile coalition grip on power.
No, a promise that there would not be a 'shared date' must be open and legally binding. The battles shortly commencing between this useless assembly and the people of Wales, must be seen to be completely free from any Llafur/Plaid political,dirty tricks.....Remember at the Plaido conference IWJ openly stated (on TV) that "he would never call any referendum when there was a chance that 'we' would 'lose' it"....Speaks volumes eh! It's now up to us, the people of Wales, to show that we will not stand for such arrogance from jumped-up politicians who are merely the tail of an ill thought through, desperate, and crumbling coalition.
The lack of a 'safety-net' on the people's vote, when the assembly vote was deemed neccessary to have one,(at least 40 yes votes out of 60 being required)being just one example of just how nervous (and cynical) this appalling assembly really is. They are running scared of the Welsh electorate, and are aware that their unwanted, disastrous, half-baked devolution scheming is in real trouble.
Haven't felt this optimistic for ages !!!!!
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Re 2
Haven't laughed so much for a long time...!!
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No.3. We'll see whose laughing after the "vote" when ever the One Wales Government (what a joke) has the guts to call one,except of course when they think they can win it. In speaking to people in general there seems to great antipathy to the whole concept of devolution as we know it,and with good organization/enthusiasm a very strong body of people will be voting NO next time,and in particular the UK loyalists of all parties who did'nt vote the last time. You are quite right Noah in that in any major constitional change there should be substantial majority in favour,otherwise the fanatics i.e. Plaid Cymru and its supporters in media will get what they REALY want by the back door. I wont bore you with the Boiler Scrappage Scheme but another example of how ordinary people like myself could have benefited from "grant" to replace old boiler,as has happened to circa 40,000 people in England and going up to 125000,however in our Nationalist/Socialist paradise the scheme in wales has'nt been set up and I am denied the said opportunity under the rules laid down by Labour Government in Westminster.. BRING IT ON!!!
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I dont agree with Len's view of devolution, but I respect his view and the fact that he can make his point clearly, and I would be wary of engaging him in debate.
However certain posters - typically those who hide behind names reflecting their opinion - eg Noah, I got it wrong blah blah - just talk rubbish and rhetoric and the more they speak the more they just weaken their case.
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4 Igotitallwrongsorry
It seems that you complain about Welsh money being spent in Wales by a Welsh elected Government. but are not averse to it being spent as long as you can get it for a new boiler.
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6. The "money" was supplied by the UK government (a proper one) as partof programme to replace old boilers,because of a)environmental pollution,b)to increase production of boilers to help country (UK) out of recession,c)to reduce energy costs to all consumers. I would have qualified under the english rules which came into operation on 5/1/10. The grant would have come from general taxation,to which I have paid for 49 years,however our "mickey mouse" administration havent even got their scheme up and running. I am not alone in this "unhappiness",as apparently scores of people have also been denied access to government funding because they live in little wales. I can assure you it aint the money per se,but the whole seperation of my personal interests as UK citizen from an entity that I respect (for all its faults) to one that I have no time for at all,as it was "fiddled through" by a welsh mafia intent on removing wales from UK.BRING IT ON!!!
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5. At 12:57pm on 03 Feb 2010, penddu wrote:
I dont agree with Len's view of devolution, but I respect his view and the fact that he can make his point clearly, and I would be wary of engaging him in debate.
However certain posters - typically those who hide behind names reflecting their opinion - eg Noah, I got it wrong blah blah - just talk rubbish and rhetoric and the more they speak the more they just weaken their case.
So our Penddu now wishes to control the nom de plumes used on this forum. For goodness sake Penddu, what does yours mean.."Desperation"?? (Actually I looked it up..."Blackhead"!! rather a strange name to hide behind) Never mind though, maybe one day we'll manage to squeeze a spot of humour from you.
I'm sure we all noticed the sad attempt at 'divide and rule' in your Message (5). I'm also sure that Len is far too savvy to fall for such nonsense which comes straight out of the "Plaidophile book of tactics" (page 642) Presented free to all those activists who have completed a course at Plaids somewhat creepy, 'Cymru X' camps.
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7 Igotitallwrongsorry
Neither has Scotland or Northen Ireland.
Perhapes they have been listening to much to all you anti devolution people complaining about the money being wasted by devolved Governments.
You can't have it all ways, even if you want it for your old boiler.
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7 Igotitallwrongsorry
Another thing if it is only a maximum of 125.000 will get the grant in England, I am sure there wouldn't be many from Wales, Scotland and Northen Ireland who would get it if they were united under the UK Government. That is if past experiences are anything to go by with funding.
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8 Noah_sembly
Plaids somewhat creepy, 'Cymru X' camps.
Are they similar to the somewhat creepy 'Conservative Future'and the 'Bullingdon Club'. Also 'Young labour'.
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10. You have much less confidence in the ordinary people of wales,than I do in relation to this matter.The simple facts are that the cash allocation for boiler scrappage was made to Parliament on 9/12/09 and by the 5/1/10 the procedures were published and by beginning of February approximately 40,000 applications were approved. If the scheme had been operated on UK basis then I would have had to have "gumption" to get application in under rules and if early enough would have got the "dosh". The scheme in England was not "re-distributive",but of first come basis and you needed to be able to fund work before getting"dosh",if previously approved,however if your boiler was "in schem",but you did'nt have money to fund work then there was alternative funding available. The "mickey mouse" Assembly still has'nt formulated its policies,but seems to be directed as explained by "dishy" Jane was to spend on "fuel poverty",which was'nt the intention of Mr. Alistair Davies who just happens to be the Chancellor of the Exchequor of the 4/5th largest economies in world. I'm told after 49 year years of paying tax that I cannot have access to this fund by somebody whose only claim to fame is that she had her picture taken with "ARNIE" during a completely pointless visit to Copenhagen. BRING IT ON!!!
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Huh???
Sounds very complicated to me.
So given the fact you may have the gumption. If you didn't have the funding to pay up front you wouldn't have been able to apply in time.
Hmm! that would leave out a great deal of people in Wales then. Let alone Scotland and Northen Ireland whom you conveniently omit.
Your statement 'and if early enough would have got the "dosh"'.
Bit like lottery funding then.
Perhapes the devolved Governments want it to be a somewhat fairer system and less complicated so are waiting to get it right.
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Good point Alf.
I have to ask, Igotit, you write in such a packed and manic fashion, when and where do you breathe?!
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If the UK government had taken the time to actually inform the devolved governments of the boiler scrapage scheme in advance then the administrations here may have introduced something around the same time. However they chose not to. There will be a boiler scrapage scheme in Wales, but it may not be on the same first come first served basis as in England - I think we may well go for a more targeted approach to help those most in fuel poverty.
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8 I never said I want to control names - I was just stating that certain individuals are less rational than others and their name is usually a giveaway.
My name translates as blackhead for the simple resaon I have black hair (or darkish anyway). It has no political (or other) significance = it is just a nickame I have had in one form or another since childhood.
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13+15. The UK scheme was "targetted" to a)reduce pollution,b)increase industrial production in recession,c)increase work opportunities for contractors in recessionn,d)reduce costs of energy for ALL consumers.IS THE SCHEME WORKING. Yes in England with actual operation from 5/1/10 and 40,000 already processed. Why do we NEED a welsh assembly at all to stick its long and unproductive nose into every nook and cranny of public policy/practice as is evidenced in this case. If it aint broke then dont fix it. These "additional" costs in having seperate policies to England need to be reduced to ensure the average person gets a better deal for their tax payments.
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There is no UK scheme. There is an England only scheme run by the UK government - who neglected to tell any of the devolved administration what they were doing. The money that will come to Wales will enable the Welsh Government to craft a scheme to meet our needs. Note this is not the National Assembly as you have stated, its the Welsh Assembly Government who will make this decision. I for one would welcome the scheme to be drawn up so that those most in need will benefit the most. Why should we blindly do everything that the government for England does?
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18. This goes to the "heart" of the matter,in that most people in wales would have foung the "english" model quite satisfactory and easy to understand,so why do we NEED a seperate body of governance to create a seperate scheme for wales. As far as I understand it wales is still part of UK,even if the NATS and fellow travellers in media wish it was not so.
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19 Igotitallwrongsorry
Oh boy, you are so unbelievable.
Do you acctualy realise what you say in your postings.
The way you explained it in your previous posting 12 I think we are all dumbfounded that you believe the English system is acceptable and fair.
If you read previous postings on here with open eyes and mind it might help you understand why we in Wales and the other devolved bodies didn't have the scheme at the same time as the English.
Whether you think we NEED a seperate body of Governence or not is irrelevant. We have one, as do Scotland and Northen Ireland.
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So the bottom line Igotitallwrong is that you want £400 off the government. I thought you were against handouts and bribes from the government? Or at least you have condemned handouts from the Welsh Government. As the money is limited and it is not enough to do everyone in the country I think its right to look how a limited amount of money can be spent. First come first served seems the least fair way to do it.
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