Turbulence ahead?
A word of warning: if you live near Ynys Mon and have an important meeting in Cardiff next week, or if you live near Cardiff and want to head up North, your secretary might have a bit more trouble than usual in booking you a flight.
Why? Because if you go to the Highland Airways website you'll find you can't.
Again then, why? Because in the last few minutes Basil O'Fee, the company's Commercial Director, has confirmed that the company is experiencing problems and are seeking new investment. They've suspended website bookings as a precaution but are confident that within the next hour, there'll be a press statement making clear how the problems can be resolved.
Is that it for the service nicknamed "Ieuan Air?" It doesn't seem fair, does it. The company who operate it get an annual subsidy of £800,000. The minister responsible for handing over the money gets stuck with a nickname you imagine he could live without.
One expert suggested this morning that in his realistic view, the service is 'dead-ish.'
Passenger numbers have exceeded expectations - 28,900 over the first two years - but let's be blunt: if bigger airlines thought that figure meant it was worth putting on larger planes that would attract more passengers and make more money and need less subsidy, they would have applied to run the service themselves. They haven't. So is it Highland Airways or bust?
The Assembly Government, who - let's face it - have rather more than £800,000-worth of prestige riding on this scheme - say they want to emphasise that even if the company go into administration, Ieuan Air will not be grounded. Highland Airways would continue as a going concern so that a buyer can be sought. In the medium term, they're 100% committed to the North South Airlink.
You could suggest your secretary takes a look at this instead - and no, the link wasn't sent care of anyone who is a known fan of the airlink - or perhaps start composing a letter asking the Assembly Government just how confident they are that the £800,000 they've paid out per year so far has been worth it.
UPDATE
Here's the statement from Highland Airways in full:
"The company is currently facing difficult trading, most recently exacerbated by the severe winter and resultant reduced flying and reduced income.
The Board has been seeking new investment, and has been in discussion with several parties in recent weeks.
Negotiations are ongoing with a potential investor that provides an excellent way forward for the company.
The outcome of all these discussions should be judged within days rather than weeks.
In the meantime the company continues to trade normally fully supported by all our staff.
The company continues to enjoy the support and encouragement of its many stakeholders and customers.
Highland Airways delivers niche aviation solutions to a diverse range of customers across the UK. These include subsidised air services between Cardiff and Anglesey, Stornoway and Benbecula in the Outer Hebrides, and Oban and the Inner Hebrides. Other activities include aerial work, newspaper delivery to some Scottish islands, corporate staff shuttles and air charter".
I'm Betsan Powys, BBC Wales' political editor. I'll be blogging the inside track on 
~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~17~RS~)
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... Highland Airways or bust?
... let the market decide, without a subsidy.
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Re 1
Are you saying that NO part of our transport service (and I believe it to be a service) should be subsidized? Travelling on the continent can be a joy - but there, of course, it's very highly subsidized and funded, and it works very, very well.
Or are you just repeating your earlier claims that only a handful of things should be funded by government?
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#1
Are you aware Stonemason that the US Federal Government owns Amtrak,the intercity passenger train service?So the most free-market loving country in the world still sees the benefits from state subsidized transport.
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I recognize and support the need for public subsidy on transport such as rail that is accessible to the public. The problem with Air Ieuan is that it not realy a "public" service, its only accessible to the rich who maybe fancy a day at the Rugby or to those who travel on Government money it is not a business service, business travel west to east not north to south so apart from being an exercise in prestige and status i could never understand the business case for supporting this venture.
£800000 subsidy sounds like the missing £500 per head for 1600 of our school pupils, add in the saving on not buying those 28900 air tickets and its amazing how quickly the pot of money can mount
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While for those of us at the end of the A40, (not dueled from St Clears) driving to Cardiff Airport(without a decent link to the M4 or bypass round Newport) and then flying to Anglesey.
Probably just as quick to drive up via Aberystwyth and enjoy our beautiful coast.
However - its a pretty poor, very slow road, though the hostelries (specially in Machynlleth)are excellent.
Many airlines are in trouble. Some have already gone out of business.
The issue here must be, is this an indication of further decline in the Welsh Economy.
Just how popular is this flight, apart from IWJ and other Welsh politicians - who is using it.
Is the private business use declining - was it ever enough to justify the service.
Was this service more than propaganda, did it serve a real need.
To make a proper judgement we need more facts - but on the face of it, a sad day, and not good.
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Re 4
I'm afraid it is either bias or ignorance to state categorically that there is no business to be done north-south! I believe the figures for those who make use of the service is pretty healthy.
Re
"Many airlines are in trouble. Some have already gone out of business."
- exactly. BA is hardly a beacon.
"The issue here must be, is this an indication of further decline in the Welsh Economy." - well, yes, of course it is an issue, but only in relation with many other economies (everyone but China it would seem!).
You're right though, some nice places in Machynlleth.
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Considering Wales is a geographically small country why do we need a north-south air link? Especially one that takes £800k in subsidy? What wales needs is an INTEGRATED transport plan. This would include:
A 3 lane motorway grade route from Cardiff/the M4 to the A55 (the only two really high-quality routes of any length in the country) to make getting from North and Mid Wales to Cardiff and the economic powerhouse of the country easier. The A470 is a joke of a route subject to delays and congestion.
A rail link of ANY description that goes from Cardiff to the north wales main line via mid wales. All of wales' major rail routes run east-west making going south-north a long, tedious business.
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Almost 14,500 return trips in two years.
Love to know just how many of those passengers were on public sector/govt jollies....Fully funded (and subsidised) by us of course. You can easily picture many of the 60 assembly sheep/flunkies repeatedly being 'herded' onto the plane at Cardiff Airport just to get the passenger numbers up!...Nothing but the usual Plaid "nation buiding at all cost" nonsense that has been going on ever since the unfortunate day that Labour, desperate to remain in power,invited Plaid to lie back on their 'memory-foam' mattress and think of England.
As we all remember seeing Ieuan Wyn-Jones telling us just how vital this air-route was,(no don't laugh)...some £800,000+ later, many will be thinking it's time he resigned. Though judging by the ever widening cracks in his party, it's more than likely a few of those who are less than fond of "the leader" are bracing themselves for a "did he fall or was he pushed" scenario.
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Re 8
"Though judging by the ever widening cracks in his party, it's more than likely a few of those who are less than fond of "the leader" are bracing themselves for a "did he fall or was he pushed" scenario."
That sounds fascinating Noa - perhaps you could fill us in with a few facts?
Are you saying, by the way, that ANY money spent on north-south transport links is a form of nation building? Mind you, that's a fine, fine aspiration.
Strange world you live in. Mind you, you've admitted many times that we shouldn't take anything you say seriously.
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As you may have gathered FoDafydd, unlike your goodself I am not a fan of Plaid. Be that as it may, I still speak to a few gullible folk who do still favour the (coy)nationalist party. I can assure you that they are not at all happy with poor Ieuan's recent performance.
Of course sponsoring (financing) an air-route from Cardiff to some God forsaken island off north east/west Wales is nation building. The fact that the main (only) instigator of this folly is Ieuan Wyn-jones, who just happens to be the AM for the aforementioned God forsaken island, really does speak volumes.
And yes! quite frankly I am saying that money spent on north south transport links is "nation building" as well as being ashameful waste of money.
It is quite obvious that no self-respecting South-Walian would ever feel the need to travel up to the chavish northern wastelands. Unfortunately, the northern peasants love visiting us sophisticated, cosmopolitan, Cardiff residents. They find it a truly uplifting experience, and can often be seen wandering wide eyed (and legless?) around our city, many still asking the way to Pontcanna or Tiger Bay!
Unfortunately, as almost all our north Wales 'bretheren'bring sandwiches,Primus stoves, and tents,(they are fond of camping in Llandaff fields,)they bring no 'tourist wealth' with them on their visits to our southern civilization.
Fodafydd, I can sympathise with you. The Plaid dream is beginning to fall apart. Even with the covert support of the Welsh media, time is running out for Plaid.More and more we are hearing that "Ieuan is dead in the water"...but who is to replace him?
Adam Price....oh yes...Adam Price, that would do nicely. Especially for all those who can't wait to see an early end of this assembly.
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Proof positive that Noa is a troll.
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#11the pot calling the pan etc., with an enormous spoonful of nationalist self importance, chill out LDT, there are other valid opinions in this region of ours, to call another a "troll" is worthy of a period in the sin bin.
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Re 12
Don't be silly. Did you actually read what Noa had to say? Do you agree with those comments? It's about as 'valid an opinion' as one held by that other toff of British politics - Griffin!
By the way, I'm not sure you realise just how silly you sound with your occassional use - just for the hell of it - of the term region to describe our nation.
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No-matter what you might think of any contributor, "troll" is unworthy for inclusion in Betsan's blog.
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Scotland Office economists found total expenditure in Scotland currently amounts to 145 per cent of all Scottish tax receipts.
Has a similar exercise been made regarding Welsh tax receipts ?
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Just to clarify the definition of a nation.
From the Oxford Concise Dictionary:
Nation • noun, a large body of people united by common descent, culture, or language, inhabiting a particular state or territory.
As one who considers himself to be British, despite being born, bred and living in this region called Wales, I find that I have nothing in common with those who consider the Welsh to be a nation.
1. My descent has a variety of sources. No common descent.
2. So-called Welsh 'culture' plays no part in my life. No common culture.
3. I have no use for, or interest in, the Welsh language. No common language.
The only common factor, is the fact that I live here. Am I part of this 'nation'?
If I am considered to be part of this 'nation', then it logically follows that the seemingly hated English 'incomers' and the vast majority of people living in the region of Wales, who share points 1, 2 and 3 with me, are also part of this 'nation'.
I would suggest, to the nationalists, separatists and sunderers, that you are in an insignificant minority. I would further suggest that in terms of descent, culture and language, we are mainly British whether you like it or not.
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For air travel from north to south, I am not convinced of (but continue to have an open mind in) the economic viability of a business plan that does not include excessive government investment. I believe that better transport via rail, ports, and road would be the way to go.
Like rhyds above, I firmly believe that rail links should be the primary investment; it moves the most people and cargo without undo damage to the environment. Likewise, transport of passengers and goods via a robust coastal transport system up and down the Welsh coast would lessen the need for huge rigs on the roads, and should seriously be looked at. Lastly, I do agree that a better motorway linking the motorway grade route from “Cardiff/the M4 to the A55” as rhyds stated.
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Re: Wales as a nation:
According to the 2001 Labour Force Survey, approximately 87% of those born in Wales do consider themselves to be of the Welsh nation and ethnicity, whichever language they speak.
That is worth repeating: whichever language spoken, those born in Wales do consider themselves to be of Welsh ethnicity. These results are in lines with the current trends in Scotland in the 2001 census. I believe the next census will also include a tick box for people to check which ethnicity they consider themselves to be.
Approximately 33 percent of the population of Wales were not born in the country, and do not consider themselves to be Welsh. Of course, there are people born outside of Wales who do consider themselves Welsh, such as famed author Jan Morris (love her work!). Likewise, there are those born in Wales that do not consider themselves Welsh.
If you do not consider yourself Welsh though reside within the current borders of Wales, then you are currently in the minority. Moreover, if this is so, it is valid and fair.
http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=448
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When I enlisted way back in the 70's I was asked two important questions ...
.. my religion, this was to ensure you were dealt with in accordance with your conventions if killed.
.. my ethnicity, you were, if you originated from Wales, British Welsh.
To this day I consider myself to be "British Welsh", a description devised no doubt by civil servants, yet there will be no tick box at the next census, I will have to choose between either British or Welsh.
I wonder how many other people consider themselves to be "British Welsh" ?
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Stonemason:
There may yet be an option for "Welsh British", certainly there will be an option for "White British", for that appeared on the Scottish census. At any rate, you may be able to write in that you are “Welsh British”.
This is how the Scottish census results broke down.
http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2005/06/22110457/05107
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@17
I can't see coastal (ship?) being viable. You'd either have to build new ports (expensive) or utilise the existing infrastructure at places such as Holyhead and Fishguard (the latter being quite honestly in the middle of nowhere as far as road/rail links are considered). Add to that the fact that your average boat isn't fast (no one makes a cargo "fast ferry" type ship to my knowledge) and that industry depends on "just in time" deliveries then coastal isn't an option.
@8
Your a prime example of "Dogma over practicalities". At the moment getting from beautiful, scenic North Wales to post industrial waste dump of South Wales is a four hour slog down the largely single carriageway A470. If you start from Warrington on the other hand you'll do it in three because the roads are dualled all the way south. Also the A470 is used as a route south to the motorway network via the A40/A449 towards the bridges.
Wales has three north-south routes (in the loosest possible terms), the A487, A470 and A483. None has seen any substantial improvement over the last 10 years (none are dualled for any real length, they still plough through every small town and village with little thought to bypasses) while the government in Cardiff are quite happy to cancel schemes that have been started (A494/A550) due to NIMBY pressure.
Wales (like the rest of Britain) needs to GROW A BACKBONE and invest long-term in this country's crumbling infrastructure.
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I for one will miss this service - and before you ask, I'm a self employed Software Engineer. If I had to guess percentages I'd say it was
30% private sector
40% public sector
30% leisure.
As I said, this is a guess!!
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#22
Would you pay the extra £50 - £60 each way seat, just a thought.
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Re 23
You never answered my #2 Stonemason!
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You are right Fo, I didn't.
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Re 25
Shy? Or embarrassed perhaps?
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It's all been said before ...
... if society decides to subsidize a particular activity, such as rail travel, and the subsidy is applied in an even manner across the whole network, there is no issue, where a subsidy is given to a single company by government an economic advantage is provided.
If the airline is unable to provide the service between Ynys Mon and Cardiff without a subsidy then no service, simple. Or do you suggest the poor of Wales should subsidize the economically advantaged, I think not.
Now if you have a problem with my views on this matter, take it up with your MP, or possibly ask your AM if the education budget had been raided to pay the subsidy of the air service between Ynys Mon and Cardiff.
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Re 27
I do have a problem with your views, because you say:
"... if society decides to subsidize a particular activity, such as rail travel, and the subsidy is applied in an even manner across the whole network, there is no issue"
If you believe that the subsidy is 'applied in an even manner across the whole network' at present, you are living on another planet! As Professor Stuart Cole has informed us this week, spending and subsidy on the railway sytem in the south of England is way, way, way above anything we enjoy in Wales! Always has been, always will be. You're quite happy with that I suppose, Stonemason? I certainly haven't seen you complain about it.
But you are confirming what I'd always thought about you, thay you don't see the whole travel infrastructure as a necessary service for our various communities. Wherever they are.
Or in other words, you know the price of everything but tha value of nothing.
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I anticipated you would make the point you did ....
Cole has been speaking about infrastructure as if for example the London cross rail is intended to benefit the people of London alone, his view is as flawed as yours. Infrastructure investment benefits all users, whereas the subsidies applied to tickets with a single airline route benefit the ticket holder, paid for by the poor of Wales because the half a million a year should have been used to benefit the whole population, do you suggest the poor of Wales should subsidize the economically advantaged?
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Re 29
I'm sure the people of Machynlleth are dancing in the streets right now at the news that Reading and Swindon are to have millions spent on their stations!! Happy days. Whilst the disabled person in a wheelchair in Whitland can't even gain access to the platform - I'd like to hear you explain those benefits to him.
So in other words you ARE saying that there should be no subsidies anywhere? Why you find it so difficult to state categorically what you mean is beyond me.
You are therefore condemning certain areas to little or no public transport service whatsoever. You are punishing the poor and well-off alike in those areas - just because of where they live. Should everyone move to more urban areas? Is that what you're saying? Or should only the rich who can afford cars live in the country?
This is about more that one air route - a particularly successful service by all accounts, the financial problems seem to be with the company's other routes in Scotland - it's about accepting that some services are more expensive than others. Less people, less profits. But some of us believe that this is a service; you, clearly - in a well served Caerffili, no doubt - do not.
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I remember Ieuan Wyn Jones opening a railway station modification to satisfy the needs of wheelchair users in remote under utilised stations, so my suggestion is to address this particular problem to Ieuan Wyn Jones as the man responsible. If he removed the subsidy from the airline I'm sure the disabled person in a wheelchair in Whitland could be provided with a solution.
I am amazed that you can describe a service as successful when it is beyond the means of the people that subsidise it.
I noticed you avoided my question do you suggest the poor of Wales should subsidize the economically advantaged?
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Re 31
"I noticed you avoided my question do you suggest the poor of Wales should subsidize the economically advantaged?"
Ah, the irony! Never mind.
If we had a fairer tax system - i.e. the well off and rich paying a larger share of income tax than they do at present, the burden on the less advantaged would be real and substantial.
And we would have a better transport system.
And the aim, surely, is to have a comprehensive, integrated transport system, so that wherever you live you are not disadvantaged - despite your being a tax payer!!!
But your claim that who you care for are the poor is difficult to take. Firstly, you're a Tory. Secondly, you're a Tory who supports the Tories' intention as their first act in government to give enormous tax relief to some of the 3000 richest people (is Cameron one of them I wonder?) in the UK. Same old Tories, then.
I'm glad Ieuan Wyn is taking action, nobody else has.
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The Jubilee Line Extension alone cost £3.5bn, what benefit did that have for anyone outside London? That was a Tory project.
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Regarding my above post and #31 - why did the poor of Wales have to subsidize the economically advantaged?
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Fo, you avoid my question, are you afraid....
A social conscience is not the preserve of the far left, indeed DC has laid out a rout-map to reform the injustices and excesses of the current Labour (with Plaid in Wales) to create a more prosperous and equitable world to live and prosper.
The first step is not as you predict, but root and branch reduction in government, elected and otherwise, I hope for the removal of the regional AMs to a directly elected FPTP for all, preferring democracy as I do. Ieuan Wyn Jones is not very important in the scheme of things, busted flush along with his party.
I won't be ignoring you Fo, we are off helping your "well served [of] Caerffili".
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For the same reason that the impoverished of Newcastle subsidise the economically advantaged; the need for Conservative economic policies to raise prosperity so that the impoverished become a distant memory has become urgent in the extreme.
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Re 23:
"Would you pay the extra £50 - £60 each way seat, just a thought."
As it stands, a return costs £30 to £100. The flight does save one night in a hotel, but I think my limit would be aroud the £130 (return) mark.
As to the point that the service would be more useful from Hawarden, you must remember that Anglesey is one hour (by car) further from Cardiff (1.5 h if you live in Cemaes)...
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Re 35 & 36
I'm afraid you seem to live in the isolated cocoon of Tory complacency - as you naively, slavishly, and rather fawningly seem to believe that the toff DC is the answer to anything and everything!
And your:
"Fo, you avoid my question, are you afraid...."
again is wonderfully ironic.
Figures out today show how the gap between rich and poor in the UK has increased over the past 40 years. There has been a good deal of Conservative government during that time. Not much of a record is it? Shameful in fact, with the worst bit being the Thatcher nightmare, when yuppies and the sheer greed of investment bankers was hatched as an idea, with her ready and willing support.
She also hated the trains of course!
Your:
"indeed DC has laid out a ROUT-MAP (my capitals!) to reform the injustices and excesses"
is frightening but not unexpected!!! God help us all.
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Increasingly this seems an issue some bright reporter might like to have a look at;
Ticket prices are £15 to £50 depending when you book.
Subsidy of £800,000 PA works out at about £84 per passenger.
That assumes 9,500 passengers a year or 130 per week.
Yops #22 estimated (from observation) about 40% are Public Servants.
That needs to be explored, if correct it means 3,800 civil servants are commuting between Cardiff and Anglesey every year (52 a week)!!
For geographical reasons, the airports only serves passengers from a small catchment area around Cardiff and Anglesey.
Kirsty at FM Questions asked whether the FM can assure the Senedd that the Cabinet Not the Minister for Economic Development, will decide if the Subsidy is to be continued.
Carwyn didn't answer that question, waffled about contract confidentiality.
Our occasional visitor Pads at #33 asks;
The Jubilee Line Extension alone cost £3.5bn, what benefit did that have for anyone outside London?
Interesting question;
A quick check says that in 2009 the Jubilee line extension carried 43 million+ passengers.
At a one of cost of 3.5 Billion to build - that gives us a one off cost of £81 per passenger.
Seems to be considerably better value for money, and far more useful to many more people than IWJ's personal airline!
I think I'm right that the IWJ airline has been in service for 3 years!
That makes £2.4 million that could have been spent on other projects to improve North South Rail and Road links - would that have be a better use of our money.
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Correction to #39
Apologies all;
Figure for passengers per year on the Jubilee line in post #39 was inaccurate
Figure of 43 Million passengers was in fact an estimate in 1996
Actual figure is 127.5 Million passengers per annum.
So my comment;
A quick check says that in 2009 the Jubilee line extension carried 43 million+ passengers.
At a one of cost of 3.5 Billion to build - that gives us a one off cost of £81 per passenger.
Seems to be considerably better value for money, and far more useful to many more people than IWJ's personal airline!
Should read;
A quick check says that the Jubilee line extension carries 127.5 million+ passengers per year.
At a one of cost of 3.5 Billion to build - that gives us a one off cost of £27.4 per passenger for the first year, after which of course its paid for.
Seems to be considerably better value for money, and far more useful to many more people than IWJ's personal airline!
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West-Wales #39 - what's the subsidy per passenger mile? (The Jubilee Line Extension is 10 miles long).
I have never claimed that "Ieuan Air" is value for money.
My point remains: should the poor in Wales (mentioned by Stonemason) really be subsidising City bankers' commutes to work?
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Re 39
West-Wales,
I don't know if Yops's estimate is right, but you conveniently substitute civil servants for his public servants.
You talk of small catchment areas, but are you also saying that people should be punished for living where they choose to live? Your, and Stonemason's, attitude reminds me of Animal Farm, where all are equal, but that some are more equal than others.
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Pads #41
Suggest you look at this from a different perspective.
The Financial Sector (effectively the City of London) is what produces a large portion of the Wealth needed to pay for all the Public Services.
It's a sobering thought to realise that all the Income Tax paid by everyone in the UK in 2008 was around 155 billion. but the cost of the UK Welfare and Health provision was 48 and 101 Billion respectively, about the same.
The City of London is a major wealth creator, tax's imposed on this sector are a major component of UK Revenue.
The money that pays a large part of our bills, including what the Assembly gets under the Barnett Formula.
The money spent on the Jubilee Line is not about subsidising Bankers travelling to work, its about infrastructure to make an essential part of our economy work.
Its a great pity that our Assembly Government does not see the need to build the infrastructure to support our industries and jobs.
We would have a healthier more equal economy and society if they did.
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Re 43
Moving and goalposts come to mind! It prolongs the debate, but doesn't clarify it, I'm afraid.
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Pads #41
You asked;
what's the subsidy per passenger mile? (The Jubilee Line Extension is 10 miles long).
Sorry to take a little while to get back - But;
IWJ Air is a subsidy, while the Jubilee Line is a capital cost.
So assuming a ten year payback then (assuming interest and other costs rolled in) for the purposes of this discussion, we can say the Jubilee line subsidy is 350 million per annum.
Now IWJ Air
Subsidy --- £800,000 per annum
Passengers 9500 per annum
Distance -- 165 Miles ("ATCF" you can argue about that Number, my best guess.)
so 9500 X 165 = 1.57 Million passenger miles.
which works out at 800,000 / 1.57^6 = £0.51 per mile - about 50p.
For the Jubilee Line.
Subsidy --- 350 million per annum
Passengers 127.5 Million per annum
Distance --- 10 Miles
so 127.5^6 X 10 = 1.275 Billion passenger miles.
Which works out at 350^6 / 1.275^9 = £0.27 per mile.
Interestingly if you cut the payback time to 5 years then the subsidy is 55p per mile.
Of course the big difference is one ends up as a permanent facility, the other simply like paying for a taxi.
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You are going round in circles Fo, you still avoid answering my question do you suggest the poor of Wales should subsidize the economically advantaged?
To bring you back into focus, we are discussing the Welsh Assembly Government subsidy of IWJ airways.
Pads wrote ...
... should the poor in Wales (mentioned by Stonemason) really be subsidising City bankers' commutes to work?
No, we should be focused upon raising people out of poverty so that "the poor" everywhere become a distant memory, there is also the case for reducing the size of government with its subsequent savings.
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Re 46
Stonemason,
This really is very funny. You, in fact, in your latest entry fail to address your own previous points consistently, let alone answer Pads question!
Let me paraphrase you:
'Should the poor in Wales really be subsidising the rich to go to the opera in Cardiff or London?
No, we should be focused upon raising people out of poverty so that "the poor" everywhere become a distant memory'
A very fine aspiration. How much time do you think David Cameron is going to need? Unfortunately, up to now, Jesus Christ got it right when he said that the poor will always be with us!
I just think that the idea that poverty will vanish in Wales or the UK alone thanks to right wing ideology is laughable, and goes against all previous evidence.
Yes, we were talking about this one air route, and I asked you a simple question - whether or not you really are against all subsidies. Although I imagine that is what you do believe, your answers merely muddy the waters.
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Good to see that the Welsh Assembly Government is investing £8.3 in Bargoed, in your own fine constituency, Stonemason. I would call it sound regeneration economics. You, however, might see it as stealing from the poor... Perhaps you'd like to discuss it with Jocelyn Davies the Deputy Minister when she's down there today.
Some interesting political rumours emanating from Caerffili these days by the way!
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So, how did you get on, Stonemason?
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how did I get on with what Fo ?
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Re 50
I'm sure you got on famously with Jocelyn Davies with WAG's financial packet for Bargoed...
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Ah all evil, public subsidies are bad, if bus stations need to be built they should be financed by bus companies, no public subsidies to them, Or isn't that the way it goes in your small government, public expenditure only on defence and the courts system Stonemason?... or are buses another exception?
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LDT as I wrote earlier ...
... if society decides to subsidize a particular activity, that would be democracy.
The alternative to democracy is governance by diktat, historically the nationalist way.
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Re 53
"The alternative to democracy is governance by diktat, historically the nationalist way."
Don't be so hard on yourself, Stonemason, not ALL British governments have been quite that bad. Mind you, there probably hasn't been a neo-con version - the type that you'd like - yet; not even the disastrous and cruel Thatcher regimes probably couldn't be best described in that way.
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... should I also pay for my neighbours children to have breakfast at school, or might I expect the children's parents to assume the responsibility ...
... Fo ?
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So subsidies you like are democratic but ones you don't like are diktat. Interesting, where do you draw the line? I notince you are not answering questions as usual.
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A question set by you LDT would only be answered if it met your approval, the question was answered.
... to repeat myself When society decides its democratic.
... but I don't see why I should pay for my neighbours children to have breakfast, you obviously disagree with me, should retired cleaner from Neath pay for her neighbours children's breakfast ?
Has the question been put to the electorate, I do not remember such a question.
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Re 57
Perhaps - in common with Cheney, say - you're not keen on representative democracies. What you are saying in effect is that no government should do anything during its time in power if it wasn't promised in their initial manifesto. That is clearly a ludicrous proposition. Governments could, in theory deliver all their policies in a couple of years, you then would be happy for them to sit back, twiddling their thumbs for the remainder. What nonsense!
I for one would prefer my taxes to go towards free breakfasts for school children than paying for our monstrous, immoral nuclear deterrent, or generally paying for the killing machine of the British state.
But unlike you, Stonemason, I will answer your question (#55) directly. No, I would expect parents who are able to, to give their children a good breakfast. But I'm not willing to see young children punished for the failings of some parents.
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Re: *57
Stonemason - Welsh Labour promised to the Welsh electorate free school breakfasts in their manifesto for the 2003 Assembly elections.
I know you're a conservative but please do try & make some attempt to keep up with the rest of us.
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You are quite right Mr Jones, labour did ....
... unfortunately we do not have a labour government, we have the undemocratic labour plaid coalition.
Is this where the £500 per pupil per year has gone in part, Fo is unwilling to punish the young, though willing to punish the elderly poor.
Is this Cheney at Westminster Fo ......
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Re 60
...should the elderly poor pay for Trident? Or for the Band of the Coldstream Guards? Or for the Trooping of the Colour?
But a Tory trying to show sympathy for the poor to make a point is somewhat absurd. History is against you, Stonemason.
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