Going on like this
Seen one of these?
If you live in Cardiff, Swansea, Newport and bits of the country the Conservatives think they can win like Aberconwy, Delyn and the Vale of Clwyd then there's a fair chance you have. I passed one this morning in Llandaff North. Heads were turning to check out Mr Cameron's face - his very best youthful, yet authoritative look - and the message alongside it:
"We can't go on like this.
I'll cut the deficit, not the NHS".
Consider the General Election campaign well and truly underway.
An Email arrives from Mr Cameron: "What do you want to ask me about the NHS?"
How about ... given health is a devolved matter, does it make sense to put these posters up in Wales at all?
Only asking but think about it this way. The Conservatives could win every single seat in Wales and beat Labour hands down in a General Election but the Health Minister in charge of the NHS in Wales the next morning would still be Labour's Edwina Hart. She gives and takes orders on health policy based on a mandate that comes from the Assembly, not Westminster.
So when Mr Cameron vies for votes by saying he'll cut the deficit, not the NHS - in other words he'll protect health spending come what may - what he means is that he'll protect health spending in England. People of Llandaff North and beyond, make note.
Does the Tory leader's pledge have a direct impact on the NHS in Wales? Well, yes and no. Let's start with the 'yes'. If money spent on the NHS in England is ringfenced then the knock on effect of the way the Treasury funds the Assembly is that a significant part of the overall amount of money handed over to Wales is ringfenced too.
Then the 'no'. The Welsh government can spend the money they get from the Treasury as they will. They don't have to spend it a particular proportion of it on health.
Labour could put up huge posters of Gordon Brown over the coming weeks with a pledge to "finance a new right for cancer patients to have diagnostic tests carried out, completed and with results - often same day results - within one week of seeing your GP. That is our early diagnosis guarantee, building on our current guarantee of only two weeks wait to see a specialist".
Now yes, granted, they'd come up with something shorter and catchier and they probably wouldn't go for a huge shot of Mr Brown alongside it. But I'm quoting from an eye-catching, vote-winning pledge, or so Labour hope ... that is only relevant in England.
So come on then, does it make sense for the Conservatives to put up the Cameron/NHS posters in Wales?
Does it matter when any number of those who spot them will decide how to vote based on the picture of the man next to the pledge, not the pledge itself?
Does it matter that this election campaign will be fought on some key pledges that are, in fact, pretty meaningless to us?
Your vote counts as much as the next man's but the man on the poster's pledge? Ah, well .... that's a bit more complicated.
I'm Betsan Powys, BBC Wales' political editor. I'll be blogging the inside track on 
~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~21~RS~)
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Election posters about English political matters going up in Wales and probably Scotland too. The Nationalists' exclusion from the leaders' debates.A decade after devolution and the levels of hubris displayed by London show no signs of reduction.
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The question you have posed in relation to David Cameron's photograph in Wales is the same question that Tam Dalyell put to the house of Parliament in the seventies, now known as the West Lothian question.
If it's no longer acceptable to have the leader of the Conservative Party's photograph up in the new undemocratic Wales then it's also no longer right to have Welsh MPs in the Westminster Parliament.
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As for the poster itself Cameron looks like he's trying to win a staring contest.And note how it's 'I'll cut the deficit' instead of we'll cut the deficit.
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This is the first real post-devolution GE in UK. Until now, the parties ruling in Cardiff, Edinburgh and London were more or less the same. Now we have different shades in all 3 countries with already significantally different policies, and the inevitable Conservative win in Westminster will highlight these differences.
An interesting year ahead.
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Possibly, David Cameron would make a very good English Prime Minister.
He speaks for England but it cannot be said that he speaks for Wales.
That is why the Conservative Party has no relevance for Wales.
A Tory government will attempt to treat Wales as an adjunct of England....
which is what King Henry VIII intended, in 1536.
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I'm Welsh, I find DC and the Conservative Party relevant to Wales, at this time his is the only rational voice on the political scene.
Making a comparison with Henry Tudors governance in the face of the Conservative [and Westminster] support for devolution is flawed, sounds like a Plaid statement, time to move on Mr Jones, into the 21st century with the Union.
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Re 2
Again, you - probably deliberately, because it is more fun than sticking to the facts - are wrong. DC can stick his face and his old-Etonian haircut wherever he likes, that is not the point.
But it is revealing that the Tories, ten years down the line of devolution, can, deliberately or because they are fools, deploy a poster whose content is irrelevant to the new political settlement in Wales (and Scotland, no doubt). I think this is exactly how it's going to be for the next five months or so - a Tory campaign aimed at English voters, because they know that it is there that the election will be won or lost.
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Oh dear...The nationalist element are starting to panic!!!
Alan Jones in Message 5 states "That is why the Conservative party has no relevance for Wales"
Have you conveniently forgotten the voting figures in the 2007 assembly elections? Annoying isn't it Alan, they just cannot be swept under the Plaido carpet......Especially as it was a Welsh assembly election, where Plaid usually do better than in General Elections.
Conservatives..427,883.....12 seats.
Plaid Cymru....423,487.....15 seats.
Yet you have the gall to to state the Conservatives have no relevance for Wales. More relevance than the increasingly hopeless Plaid it would appear.
Oh yes.. On the subject of "relevance for Wales" for you to have to go back to Henry the 8th. and 1536 !!!! shows clearly just how pitiful you desperate Plaidos have become.
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Noah - have you just added up list and contituency votes?
In the constituecies Plaid won:
Plaid 219,121
Tory 218,730
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Nice... I think that might be game, set and match to you Noah_sembly! or perhaps you'd like to quickly throw in the killer blow of the very recent euro elections where the conservatives topped the poll.
Not relevant to Wales indeed?!? you've got to laugh at the sheer desperation of these fanatics :)
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The point being Comeoffit that the content of the poster, the NHS and Cameron's promise, is a devolved matter and thus a matter for the WAG rather than Westminster.
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The Welsh NHS is certainly not delivering
This poster certainly highlights the issue - if we want a Health Service that works - time to hand control back to Westminster.
Overall its becoming glaringly obvious - We would be richer with a better, more relevant and realistic Government, if all the devolved powers were handed back and the Assembly dismantled.
The money wasted paying all the AM's (few of whom are up to the job) is only the tip of the iceberg.
Vast resources are poured into ideological programs while real needs are robbed of funds.
Perhaps we can get Cheryl and the Tories into giving us the Referendum we should have - Devolution Yes or No.
It clear "Open Debate, Democracy, and freedom to choose" are not cherished ideals of our current glorious leaders.
Disinformation, lies, hate, mendacious psychological propoganda, and media manipulation are the weapons.
Look at what has been done since 1997, what is planned for the future - We the Welsh people are obviously losers from devolution!
So who are the winners and what is their prize!!!
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While the Tories have not been very relevant to Wales for most of the past century, they are gradually becoming more acceptable (or maybe they have learnt to hide their prejudices better???)
They have transformed themselves by ditching most of the Thatcherite anti-Welsh policies (that left them wiped out in Wales) and their fresher pro-Welsh approach gave them an unprecedented first place in the recent Euro elections.
So love them or loathe them, you have to accept that they are now relevant. But we have to ensure that idiots like David Davies dont get their way and overule the good guys like Glyn Davies.
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#10 comeoffit
"...perhaps you'd like to quickly throw in the killer blow of the very recent euro elections..."
Welsh Conservatives getting 21% of the vote in a very low turnout when Labour only got 15% UK wide is hardly a killer blow now is it?
Granted 21% doesn't make the Tories completely irrelevant but how relevant will a Westminster Tory Government be to Wales?The Tories have already said they will "beef up" the Welsh Office once in power.I can see Cheryl Gillan getting up to plenty of troublemaking when her party won't have been elected to office by the Welsh voters.
As penddu said at #4 this is the first GE held when there are markedly different governments across the UK.
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"Disinformation, lies," - strangely enough the first days of this year have revealed a bunch of astonishing "disinformation and lies" from Unionists on this blog. Absolutely no attempt at justification - it's quite bizarre.
From you for instance: "The Welsh NHS is certainly not delivering"
Why not support that statement with some facts instead of just a statement?
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#14 Mistydougie:
I meant 'killer blow' in relation to the statement from a Plaid fanatic that the conservatives are irrelevant in Wales. I agree its not a killer blow otherwise. How these nationalists can still make such statements is beyond me... no doubt they still question if the world is round and whether we ever landed on the moon.
#13:
"idiots like David Davies"
Whilst I've only ever seen the guy speak once on ITV Wales' 'the blunt end', he hardly appeared as an idiot. From what I saw he would wipe the floor debating the issue of further powers with any AM.
Mind you not that wiping the floor with any AM on the issue of further powers requires much more than an idiot:
AM - We needs more powers!
Idiot - Why?
AM - to do the job
Idiot - what job?
AM - erm...
Idiot - What have you done with the powers you already have?
AM - ......... [debate ends]
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#15 Hi Dewi - happy new year!!
Facts;
Compared to the English model the Welsh NHS, is difficult to access, overly bureaucratic, with longer waiting lists than England.
Many procedures (varicose vein reduction) not available except in extremis.
Because there is virtually no statistics on outcomes compared to the coverage in England much information on comparative death rates is anecdotal, but it doesn't look good.
Need a difficult Op - Go East young man!!!
Attempts to deliver all care in Wales means patients (except in unusual circumstances) are limited to services available in Wales.
Centralisation means services (including A&E) withdrawn from local hospitals and located at specialist centres, meaning Patients have to travel many miles often via rural roads.
(our transport system is another devolved government failure)
Hart, to be fair, has tried to address this, and has stood up to the Bureaucrats over Neurology.
But we have had almost as many NHS restructurings as years of Devolution - 7 major reorganisations at the last count,- we are still in a mess, gathering more administrators and complexity, but reducing health professionals and service delivery at every step.
Peter Black LD pointed out that feedback systems to monitor Patient experience, are almost non existence here, while in England they are effective and used to drive improvement.
On a Personal note - try to get a Wheelchair in Wales if you break a leg.
Almost impossible, but in England handed out before leaving A&E.(and you get seen promptly)
There is more to health provision than free prescriptions and parking!
Labour lost the last Assembly Elections over the NHS and Hospital closures - its still an issue, and impacts on all of us.
For the people of Wales it demonstrates the inability of the Assembly to deliver an effective devolved service.
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As I understand it wales is still part of UK (Even if BBC CYMRU wishes it was'nt) and David Cameron must put his case of UK basis rather than the "Balkanised" situation we now find ourselves in. In today's Daily Telegraph there is advert from British Gas which in certain situations will grant (subject to claim)£400 boiler scrappage discount and additionally grant (subject to claim) £400 Government boiler scrappage allowance. The sting in the tale is that I am not able to claim such sums,even though my current 17 year old boiler being replaced and having worked for 40+years I live under this "mickey mouse" gang down the Bay of Irrelevance. Now I know the NATS and fellow travellers in media will tell me that's what "DEVOLUTION" is about,but we were sold a "rum deal" in 1998 and the bills are starting to come home.
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Oh no Dewi H, you don't get away with tactics like that!
I know damn well I counted both list and constituency votes. That's what the election was all about! You deliberately tried to muddy the water by attempting to rubbish the figures. I certainly hope you didn't succeed in fooling anyone on here.
Jeez. You Plaidies really are getting more desperate by the minute.
To clarify things for others, and in order to possibly cause some itrritation amongst certain people, here are the complete figures again.
8. At 2:14pm on 05 Jan 2010, you wrote:
Oh dear...The nationalist element are starting to panic!!!
Alan Jones in Message 5 states "That is why the Conservative party has no relevance for Wales"
Have you conveniently forgotten the voting figures in the 2007 assembly elections? Annoying isn't it Alan, they just cannot be swept under the Plaido carpet......Especially as it was a Welsh assembly election, where Plaid usually do better than in General Elections.
Conservatives..427,883.....12 seats.
Plaid Cymru....423,487.....15 seats.
Yet you have the gall to to state the Conservatives have no relevance for Wales. More relevance than the increasingly hopeless Plaid it would appear.
Oh yes.. On the subject of "relevance for Wales" for you to have to go back to Henry the 8th. and 1536 !!!! shows clearly just how pitiful you desperate Plaidos have become.
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9. At 2:45pm on 05 Jan 2010, Dewi_H wrote:
Noah - have you just added up list and contituency votes?
In the constituecies Plaid won:
Plaid 219,121
Tory 218,730
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Ah - sorry I thought this was Betsan Powys' blog page, but reading the contributions I now realise that I've stumbled into Conservative Home Cymru. My mistake...
(Good article though Betsan - the main point of which I note that Dai Cameron's supporters seem to be studiously avoiding).
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By the way Mr West-Wales, before you go much further down the "hand the NHS back to Westminster" line, are you old enough to remember the huge debts and mismanagment suffered during the 1990s when the Tories themselves fiddled with our NHS from Westminster? Was it not they who tried to turn the NHS into some strange bureaucratic marketplace? Its a bit rich to suggest that devolution has caused problems it has been trying to rectify ever since.
Think about it.
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Noah - I just wanted clarication - don't go off on one. PLaid beat the Tories in constituency votes, Tories beat Plaid on the list.
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#21 plaidman
I'm old enough to remember the disaster of the Wilson Callaghan Governments and the mess Thatcher had to clear up.
In 1997 Major (thanks to Ken Clarke's stewardship) left the economy strong.
Check your history - no labour Government has ever left Office with the economy in good shape.
Every single one including Attlee ended with the country in a mess, and the economy a basket case.
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I think previous comments regarding failures of ‘The Assembly’ are a little unfair and should be read as failures of WAG. Perhaps subconsciously no one wants to admit that the only party who has not been in government in the Assembly has been the Tories. We haven’t liked Wales in a Tory UK and we haven’t liked a non-Tory devolved Wales. What’s the answer?
As for Tory attitudes to Welsh devolution, to me this billboard suggests one of three scenarios:
1. The Tories’ campaign management are not fully aware of the political situation here in Wales. They are ignorant, only get their information from UK centred media (UK BBC, Sky, Ch 4 News after Hollyoaks if they bother watching) and their politics is derived from there. They are increasingly focused on personality in politics and would prefer it if people voted for Cameron rather than the Conservative Party as the wide perception is held that it is full of disagreeable toffs.
2. The Tories’ campaign management are fully aware of the political situation here in Wales. However, they believe their target audience are ignorant, only get their information from UK centred media (UK BBC, Sky, Ch 4 News after Hollyoaks if they bother watching) and that their politics is derived from there. They believe us all to be increasingly focused on personality in politics and would prefer it if people voted for Cameron rather than the Conservative Party as the wide perception is held that it is full of disagreeable toffs.
3. The Tories’ campaign management know the NHS is a devolved matter here in Wales, but they’ve paid a lot of money for that billboard and don’t really want to shell more time and money to think up a witty Wales only version. It is therefore an acceptable oversight which shouldn’t matter as cutting a deficit is not devolved but nonetheless important and ring-fencing NHS spending in England means some guaranteed money for Wales (as Betsan alluded). There’s lucky!
My money’s on #3 as Cameron and Gillian whatsherface seem quite Devo friendly (please note I have said ‘seem’!). The big threat to Wales is the inevitable reduction in UK funding either through the knock on effects of cuts in English spending or a possible re-negotiation of the Barnett Formula, which will happen whatever shape Parliament is elected.
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#23 West-Wales
Well I'm old enough to have lived through the misery of what happened to the Welsh economy during the 1980s. You cannot tell me that Tories give two figs for Wales - they want to govern Westminster (England in essence). Their record speaks for itself.
But I was actually asking you to remember how the NHS fared in Wales under the Tories in the 1990s. That was pretty grim on occasions too.
I am not a Labourite and never have been. I believe in the process of devolution and want to take it further so that we aren't exposed to any more Wilson/Callaghan or Thatcher style assaults on our country. Wales is capable of doing so much better than being cannon fodder for parties rooted wholly in the corridors of Westminster, who see no further than bawling at each other from across that hidebound old chamber.
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I am really tired of listening to people telling me 'who should govern' what I really want is the real question; "how do I want to be governed" the answer is; I want to chose, they will not give me a choice!!!
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Its interesting that people fail to see the distinction between the Welsh Government and the National Assembly. If there are failings in the NHS are they the result of government policy in Wales or are they the result of years of neglect prior to the National Assembly, have things improved prior to devolution? We have no figures to compare so we don't know. However we can compare with England and in some respects the NHS is not delivering as well as in England, why is that? Older population, greater ill heath and the rural nature of Wales have a big part to play. England has also mortgaged its health service to the hilt with PFI and other moneymaking scams that will cost it dear in years to come.
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Interesting that the same Socialist ideological dogma still resonates with some and blocks evolution;
First Lyn # 27 I agree PFI is a mistake, and the NHS in England is far from perfect.
It is difficult to make direct comparisons with England, because the Welsh NHS provides few figures or analysis.
But the English NHS does provide considerable data and one can directly compare personal experience.
One of the big improvements in England is the use of Patient feedback to improve service - in Wales patients views are effectivly ignored, the Administrators tell us what we are to get and thats it!
But I think we can agree the NHS is a structural monstrosity, many attempts have been made to resolve the problems, and control not just costs, but the burgeoning administration nightmare.
The idea for the NHS goes back long before the inception of the Labour Party - building on ideas developed in the late 19th Century, Lord Dawson in 1920 produced a forward thinking report on how a health service might be organised.
This led to The Local Government Act (1929) under which local authorities took over poor law hospitals that then became municipal hospitals serving ratepayers, not paupers. They needed much upgrading.
In general the services that existed were a mess. The quality varied widely from town to town, and country areas were in general poorly served.
It was recognised by all that health care was a right, not something to be bestowed erratically by charity.
During the Second World War Beveridge was charged to produce a report on social welfare systems and while he had little to say about the precise nature or funding of a health service, he recognised one as essential to a satisfactory system of social security.
This advice resulted in a detailed study on how a "free at the point of receipt" Health Care System could be implemented which was placed before Parliment as a White Paper in 1944.
This carefully structured plan was scrapped by the incoming Labour Government, and in 1945 Bevan rapidly put together a proposal, and presented to the Cabinet a radically different plan, based on Socialist ideology, favouring nationalisation of all hospitals, with central control of all aspects. After much tough negotiation this plan went through, with modest concessions.
There in lies the root of the problems in the NHS.
What Bevan did was to put in place a centralised, over administered, Stalinist, monolith.
Priorities were set by Politicians,Bureaucracy took precedence over health outcomes.
The High Priests were the executives and senior Administrators - servants the medical staff - and patients effectively a nuisance.
The other major issue is that Private expertise and support is blocked by the Dogma that there must be no Private finance or provision in the delivery of Health Provision.
"Money making" from Health Care is anathema to many, and the subject of many ill conceived attacks, all based on ignorance and blind ideology.
Plaidman puts the idea into words in #21 Was it not they who tried to turn the NHS into some strange bureaucratic marketplace?
He simply has failed to realise the necessity of dismantling the monolith, decentralization to getting some fiscal control and delivery of high quality Patient outcomes.
Unfortunately the emotional bias against employing private expertise, - despite the evidence that Bevans model is seriously flawed - is such that any attempt to improve will be met with serious opposition.
Until we remove politicians from the loop, decentralise, make Administrators the servants of the medical profession, insist that outcomes are the priority - despite what the Dogma says we are not going to get anywhere.
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A profound statement West-Wales, your ....
Until we remove politicians from the loop, decentralise, make Administrators the servants of the medical profession, insist that outcomes are the priority - despite what the Dogma says we are not going to get anywhere.
... could be applied across the political board, it is a travesty that politicians are unwilling to release the reins of governance where it is so obvious they are out of their depth, lacking ....
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They are an English party and the Welsh public has been fed on the motto "all good things come from England." The next good thing will be a Welsh parliament. Perhaps then they will wake up to realise that the NHS is now administered by their own minister within Wales.
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Perhaps then they will wake up to realise that the NHS is now administered by their own minister within Wales.
or ...
Perhaps then they will wake up to realise that the NHS is now missmanaged to the tune of a £ billion by their own minister within Wales.
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There's a collection of defaced David Cameron posters here http://www.moneymad.org/David_Cameron_defaced_posters.htm
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